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Is Calvinism the Faith that was once delivered to the saints?

J
Jimotheus

Grace, peace, and love be multiplied:

I realize that there is a renewed love affair with what is commonly called, Calvinism, perserverance of the saints, Once-saved-always-saved, etc. With some in the visible Christian Church who seemed to be rising stars such as our brother, Paul Washer and others; it seems to me that we should call into question whether Calvinism is the faith that was once delivered to the saints, or is it rank heresy. Personally, I do not care that this subject has been debated for centuries. Some have used that fact as a cop-out so as to avoid any discussion of the matter. I remember hearing a message by Paul Washer entitled, "Calvinism is not the issue" however Mr. Washer preaches Calvinism without calling it such in many of his sermons. I say Calvinism should be an issue in these last days, Why? If indeed this is heresy it needs to be rejected as such. If John Calvin's theology is not the faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints, then it is pure heresy. I say that it is indeed heresy, and should be repudiated as such.

#1. "Limited atonement"
(or as Paul Washer and others would put it, particular redeemption) Simply put, Jesus Christ did not die for the sins of the whole world, but only those whom God has particularly chosen from eternity past.

This is false. The atonement of our Lord Jesus Christ was not limited to a priviledged few as Calvinist believe. This is in direct contradiction to the categorical affirmations of St.John 3:16; II Cor. 5:19; I Timothy 2:1-6; Titus 2:11-12; I John 2:1-2; 4:14-15. It would seem that the apostles knew nothing of some so-called limited atonement (particular redeemption) as taught by Calvin's disciples.

#2. "Unconditional elect"
The doctrine of election has been perverted by Calvinist for centuries. When we approach any passage of scripture, we must allow the context to determine our understanding of what a passage teaches and not the nessesities of our theology. When considering the passages used by the Calvinist to preach unconditional elect of particular men, it is always removed from the context and interpreted according to the Calvinistic nessesities. Let me say simply that God has not elected any particular person unconditionally except the man Christ Jesus. Isa. 42:1; I Pet. 2:6. According to the bible the election of God is cooperate and only encompasses individuals as they relate to the cooperate body whether that body is "The body of Christ", or, "The Israel of God."(Gal.6:16). In the epistle to the Ephesians chapter one, the apostle Paul make this quite clear. The apostle uses the plural pronouns "us" and "we" That the "us" and the "we" were chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world (v.4) And that "we" have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him..." (v.11) that is the election is a cooperate election and only encompasses particular men as they relate to Christ, "IN HIM." According to Paul (and John), we are only elect IN THE SON not an election of particular men as taught by Calvin. This is also true when considering the cooperate election of "The Israel of God." Paul speaks of "SOME" (not all) of the branches were broken off because of "unbelief" in Romans 11:17,20. Notice that the cooperate election of Israel remains in tact while concerning "SOME" jews were cut off (not by some so-called eternal decree of reprobation of particular persons) but because of, "UNBELIEF." These same jews that were broken off because of "unbelief" were not fatalistically unconditionally reprobated beyond hope by a past eternal decree by God for in verse 23 of Romans eleven we read, "And they also (those broken off v.20), if they abide still not in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in AGAIN."

Let me just mention a couple of points: It is erroneously believed that predestination and election mean the same thing; this is false. They do not mean the same though the are related. Secondly, some have erroneously believed that to question Calvin's assumptions concerning unconditional election and reprobation of particular men is to question the sovereignty of God, this is absurd. The sovereignty of God does not stand or fall on man's response to the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Men and women could choose either way and it would not nor cannot impinge on the sovereignty of God. The sovereignty of God is an unquestionable fact in scripture even if we never existed. So those who would accuse us who reject Calvinism as opposing the sovereignty of God are sadly mistaken. Well, I have written enough for now. I will wait for whatever replies for continued discussions. Marantha!!

H
hmmhmm

The sovereignty of God does not stand or fall on man's response to the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Men and women could choose either way and it would not nor cannot impinge on the sovereignty of God. The sovereignty of God is an unquestionable fact in scripture even if we never existed. So those who would accuse us who reject Calvinism as opposing the sovereignty of God are sadly mistaken.

Amen , this is very true and sadly much misunderstood.

S
sojourner7

The "U" in Calvin's theology is for unmerited
favor; none of us have any merit upon which
to claim salvation; none of us have standing
with a just an holy GOD.
Since salvation is by GOD's choosing and willing
and giving of HIS grace; this is what election
means.

S
sermonindex

I consider myself to view most of the Calvinistic teachings as biblical, however, I reject the doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved". I really don't know how people can have that so fixed in their minds. I can say that I am saved because I continually trust in my LORD and saviour.

But for me to "say" that I am always saved is not for me to say. Think of Judas. His life was prophetically chosen to betray the Son of God. He was chosen by Jesus to be His disciple. We know NOW because it is written all that he did, but picture yourself in that group standing there with them. You would think that you were part of a dynamic team. This great man who preaches the gospel does fantastic miracles and healing chose me to be apart of His team. And the whole time He did not know that He was chosen to be the one to betray the Son of God. That is scary.

What if one of us is chosen to be an Anti Christ? One who has tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost Hebrews 6:1-8 and if they should fall away to renew themselves unto repentance and I am thrusted out because I can't get back in. After awhile I am going to get hardened and I am going to hate God.

It was God who hardened the hearts of the men on the way to Emmaus while Jesus communed with them. It was God who blinded the eyes of the Pharisees because He didn't want to save them.

For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
I don't know about you but the fear of God is one thing that I don't want Him to take away from me. We can't forget about that little word "IF" that is littered in the New Testament.

R
rnieman

Jimotheus: I agree with you on your defense, the Lord has shown me God's Sovereignty and man's responsiblity in the role of salvation. Even Spurgeon preached this. But, to call calvinism Heresy, how can one reconcile the fact that God used a Whitefield, Edwards and many others in Revival and at the same time hold to calling their position Heresy. A heretic marshalling a "Genuine Revival??? As said many times before on this board, there's mystery on how God "exactly" goes about saving sinners. In past revivals, both positions came together in "Unity" to pray and seek God that He may grant an outpouring, not to correct one anothers doctrine. I.E. John Wesley & George Whitefield and the holiness club that they started while disagreeing on doctrine. Again is it Heresy or Mystery? In love, rnieman

R
rookie

So those who would accuse us who reject Calvinism as opposing the sovereignty of God are sadly mistaken.

Scripture clearly confirms your thoughts...

Job 36:4 For truly my words [are] not false; One who is perfect in knowledge [is] with you.

Job 36:5 "Behold, God [is] mighty, but despises [no one]; [He is] mighty in strength of understanding.

Job 36:6 He does not preserve the life of the wicked, But gives justice to the oppressed.

Job 36:7 He does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous; But [they are] on the throne with kings, For He has seated them forever, And they are exalted.

Job 36:8 And if [they are] bound in fetters, Held in the cords of affliction,

Job 36:9 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions-- That they have acted defiantly.

Job 36:10 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity.

Job 36:11 If they obey and serve [Him], They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures.

Job 36:12 But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge. [fn]

Job 36:13 "But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath; They do not cry for help when He binds them.

Job 36:14 They die in youth, And their life [ends] among the perverted persons. [fn]


Keep preachin...

In Christ
Jeff

W
whyme

I've gotten too involved in these debates with people who are unwaveringly convinced of their positions to wade into this again. I would like to say this though. I know a lot of people who follow reformed teaching. To a man, they would all be just as happy if the truth of salvation is that God gives an opportunity to all men, meaning each and every man who has ever lived is given a real opportunity to believe in Christ. Equally, they would all be happy if the universalist were right and everybody got saved ( of course we don't see either as Scripturally accurate ). What I see from the other side often though is a statement that the reformed view makes God out to be a monster, manipulative or unloving. They add that "the God they know" would never choose just some and they wouldn't want that God to be their God. That I think, based on Scripture, is a very dangerous attitude and one upon which they may be risking their very souls. Finally, where you land on this issue really does affect the way you view the world, evil, your confidence in your eternal future, your preaching and teaching, the spiritual health of the visible church, even your view of God himself. That is why this issue has been debated for centuries and why it is an important debate as it can directly affect the believer's state of mind and ministry. I am comforted, however, that the positions held on this will never affect the outcome of anyone's salvation. Discussing the cause of salvation is not near as important as ensuring the reality of it personally. As for those who would say the debate is fodder for the devil, please understand that the Pelagian heresy fought by Augustine was considered a watershed event in Church history as was the Protestant Reformation ( Please don't forget, the Catholic Church is where Semi-Pelagianism and cooperative salvation grew up, James Arminius was a copy cat)

H
hmmhmm

edit: posted wrong thread

T
tjservant

Finally, where you land on this issue really does affect the way you view the world, evil, your confidence in your eternal future, your preaching and teaching, the spiritual health of the visible church, even your view of God himself. That is why this issue has been debated for centuries and why it is an important debate as it can directly affect the believer's state of mind and ministry.

Amen.

S
sermonindex

I've gotten too involved in these debates with people who are unwaveringly convinced of their positions to wade into this again.
It does seem pointless doesn't it. We can argue and debate because we have time on our hands and we live in a country that gives us that freedom. But if we lived under different circumstances where the freedom to do these things is not there, we won't care if anyone has a bed of T.U.L.I.P.(s) in their garden. Paul's concern was that when you believed did you receive the holy Ghost. Once we've gotten that it says that He will guide into all truth IF were willing to be lead. That's another topic.

D
darcinChrist

It's not so much a matter whether God uses heretics to spread the Gospel because this was addressed by both Jesus and Paul as it did happen in their day. A soul can find salvation when warned by one who believes in Calvinism or not. The same Gospel message goes out. First, warning sinners of their lost state, that they are headed headlong into hell. Then allowing the hearers to be pricked by the Holy Ghost of their sin. Then repentance and faith in Jesus, believing and obedience.

Now this is where the difference comes in and where it's vital. Because the Calvinism gospel allows for those who have turned to go right back into their former way of life and still maintain that they are on the way to heaven even though they are living like the devil. It's what happens after initial salvation or after the revival that matters and it depends on what Gospel message, whether you view correctly that you are able to turn back into sinful living and walk away from your salvation, giving it up/losing it (i.e. the True Gospel) or you believe even though you backslide into greivious sin you're still saved and on the road to heaven (i.e. Calvinism).

There's a MAJOR difference, one right, one wrong or another gospel at that point.
Does this make any sense?

The point is God could use a drunk or a donkey to warn sinners and bring them into the body of Christ, but where do they go from there? Do they stay with Him in faithful willing obedience or backslide with no fear of God thinking they're still in His loving arms? It certainly matters.

Y
yoadam


darcinChrist wrote:
It's not so much a matter whether God uses heretics to spread the Gospel because this was addressed by both Jesus and Paul as it did happen in their day. A soul can find salvation when warned by one who believes in Calvinism or not. The same Gospel message goes out. First, warning sinners of their lost state, that they are headed headlong into hell. Then allowing the hearers to be pricked by the Holy Ghost of their sin. Then repentance and faith in Jesus, believing and obedience.

Now this is where the difference comes in and where it's vital. Because the Calvinism gospel allows for those who have turned to go right back into their former way of life and still maintain that they are on the way to heaven even though they are living like the devil. It's what happens after initial salvation or after the revival that matters and it depends on what Gospel message, whether you view correctly that you are able to turn back into sinful living and walk away from your salvation, giving it up/losing it (i.e. the True Gospel) or you believe even though you backslide into greivious sin you're still saved and on the road to heaven (i.e. Calvinism).

There's a MAJOR difference, one right, one wrong or another gospel at that point.
Does this make any sense?

The point is God could use a drunk or a donkey to warn sinners and bring them into the body of Christ, but where do they go from there? Do they stay with Him in faithful willing obedience or backslide with no fear of God thinking they're still in His loving arms? It certainly matters.


Hi. You are VERY mistaken about this and misrepresent the reformed position. We hold that all true Christians persevere in the faith to the end. IF one does not persevere, then it simply means he never had the faith in the first place.

John 6:37-38,
[b]"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."[/b]

So, everyone who is given to the Son by the Father to be saved "SHALL COME" and of them the Son will "in no wise cast out." PERIOD. What about "jumping out of His hand" as so many assert a Christian can do? Read the next verse:

and the very next verse (39),

[b]"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."[/b]

Here we see that of [b]ALL[/b]which are given to the Son, the Son will "lose nothing" [i]AND[/i] "and I will raise him up at the last day." Notice the definite, [b]"I WILL"[/b] "...raise him up at the last day." This is distinctly Johannine writing style and speaks clearly of eternal life. This is undeniably clear, as in the very next verse (40),

[b]And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/b]

"EVERLASTING LIFE". Clear?

In the very next verses the Jews murmur about these things... (verses 41-43)

"The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves."

Now, Jesus continues teaching... (Verses 43-46)

[b]"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."[/b]

Here we see that "NO MAN [b]CAN[/b] COME TO ME". Can is a word of ability. Notice how Jesus did not say "May", but "CAN". This means that nobody is able to come to Jesus. Why? (Because we (before regeneration, "...were dead in trespasses and sins;" Ephesians 2:1 ) But praise God there is an exception. Jesus then says, "except the Father which hath sent me draw him". So, if we are drawn by the Father, we can come to Jesus. And then Jesus says, "and I will raise him up at the last day." SO, all who are drawn, therefore, are raised up at the last day to eternal life. And Jesus says it again another way, "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." [i]CRYSTAL CLEAR.[/i]

[u]In reverse summary, 1. All whom the Father draws are raised up to eternal life at the last day. 2. No one can come to Jesus without being drawn by the Father. 3. Being raised up at the last day clearly speaks of eternal life. 4. All whom the Father gives to Jesus are raised up at the last day to eternal life and Jesus will "lose nothing" so one can neither be snatched (or jump!) out of his hand. 5. Everyone given by the Father to Jesus "SHALL COME" to Jesus. 6. Jesus promises "I will in no wise cast out." to those who come to Him.[/u]

Finally, please read the last words of the chapter as a final confirmation of these truths,

"But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66\tFrom that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve."

The puritan's Westminster Confession of 1646 accurately and systematically proclaims these truths.

[b][u]The Westminster Confession of Faith: Chapter 17
Chapter 17. Of the Perseverance of the Saints.[/u]

1. They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.a

a. John 10:28-29; Phil 1:6; 1 Pet 1:5, 9; 2 Pet 1:10; 1 John 3:9.

2. This perseverance of the saints depends, not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;a upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ;b the abiding of the Spirit and of the seed of God within them;c and the nature of the covenant of grace:d from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.e

a. Jer 31:3; 2 Tim 2:18-19. • b. Luke 22:32; John 17:11, 24; Heb 7:25; 9:12-15; 10:10, 14; 13:20-21; Rom 8:33-39. • c. John 14:16-17; 1 John 2:27; 3:9. • d. Jer 32:40. • e. John 10:28; 2 Thes 3:3; 1 John 2:19.

3. Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;a and for a time continue therein:b whereby they incur God's displeasure,c and grieve his Holy Spirit;d come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts;e have their hearts hardened,f and their consciences wounded;g hurt and scandalize others,h and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.i

a. Mat 26:70, 72, 74. • b. Psa 51 title with v. 14. • c. 2 Sam 11:27; Isa 64:5, 7, 9. • d. Eph 4:30. • e. Psa 51:8, 10, 12; Song 5:2-4, 6; Rev 2:4. • f. Isa 63:17; Mark 6:52; 16:14. • g. Psa 32:3-4; 51:8. • h. 2 Sam 12:14. • i. Psa 89:31-32; 1 Cor 11:32.[/b]

God bless you.
Adam Schaefers

Y
yoadam

Please allow one quick followup post:

I noticed you believe the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints leads to false assurance and licentiousness. This could very well be, except for the fact that the holiest Christians in history have believed these doctrines. Consider Spurgeons words from his excellent, "Defense of Calvinism."
http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

"I ask the man who dares to say that Calvinism is a licentious religion, what he thinks of the character of Augustine, or Calvin, or Whitefield, who in successive ages were the great exponents of the system of grace; or what will he say of the Puritans, whose works are full of them? Had a man been an Arminian in those days, he would have been accounted the vilest heretic breathing, but now we are looked upon as the heretics, and they as the orthodox. We have gone back to the old school; we can trace our descent from the apostles."-CH SPURGEON

"The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again."—C. H. Spurgeon

Y
yoadam


Jimotheus wrote:
Grace, peace, and love be multiplied:

I realize that there is a renewed love affair with what is commonly called, Calvinism, perserverance of the saints, Once-saved-always-saved, etc. With some in the visible Christian Church who seemed to be rising stars such as our brother, Paul Washer and others; it seems to me that we should call into question whether Calvinism is the faith that was once delivered to the saints, or is it rank heresy. Personally, I do not care that this subject has been debated for centuries. Some have used that fact as a cop-out so as to avoid any discussion of the matter. I remember hearing a message by Paul Washer entitled, "Calvinism is not the issue" however Mr. Washer preaches Calvinism without calling it such in many of his sermons. I say Calvinism should be an issue in these last days, Why? If indeed this is heresy it needs to be rejected as such. If John Calvin's theology is not the faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints, then it is pure heresy. I say that it is indeed heresy, and should be repudiated as such.

#1. "Limited atonement"
(or as Paul Washer and others would put it, particular redeemption) Simply put, Jesus Christ did not die for the sins of the whole world, but only those whom God has particularly chosen from eternity past.

This is false. The atonement of our Lord Jesus Christ was not limited to a priviledged few as Calvinist believe. This is in direct contradiction to the categorical affirmations of St.John 3:16; II Cor. 5:19; I Timothy 2:1-6; Titus 2:11-12; I John 2:1-2; 4:14-15. It would seem that the apostles knew nothing of some so-called limited atonement (particular redeemption) as taught by Calvin's disciples.

#2. "Unconditional elect"
The doctrine of election has been perverted by Calvinist for centuries. When we approach any passage of scripture, we must allow the context to determine our understanding of what a passage teaches and not the nessesities of our theology. When considering the passages used by the Calvinist to preach unconditional elect of particular men, it is always removed from the context and interpreted according to the Calvinistic nessesities. Let me say simply that God has not elected any particular person unconditionally except the man Christ Jesus. Isa. 42:1; I Pet. 2:6. According to the bible the election of God is cooperate and only encompasses individuals as they relate to the cooperate body whether that body is "The body of Christ", or, "The Israel of God."(Gal.6:16). In the epistle to the Ephesians chapter one, the apostle Paul make this quite clear. The apostle uses the plural pronouns "us" and "we" That the "us" and the "we" were chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world (v.4) And that "we" have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him..." (v.11) that is the election is a cooperate election and only encompasses particular men as they relate to Christ, "IN HIM." According to Paul (and John), we are only elect IN THE SON not an election of particular men as taught by Calvin. This is also true when considering the cooperate election of "The Israel of God." Paul speaks of "SOME" (not all) of the branches were broken off because of "unbelief" in Romans 11:17,20. Notice that the cooperate election of Israel remains in tact while concerning "SOME" jews were cut off (not by some so-called eternal decree of reprobation of particular persons) but because of, "UNBELIEF." These same jews that were broken off because of "unbelief" were not fatalistically unconditionally reprobated beyond hope by a past eternal decree by God for in verse 23 of Romans eleven we read, "And they also (those broken off v.20), if they abide still not in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in AGAIN."

Let me just mention a couple of points: It is erroneously believed that predestination and election mean the same thing; this is false. They do not mean the same though the are related. Secondly, some have erroneously believed that to question Calvin's assumptions concerning unconditional election and reprobation of particular men is to question the sovereignty of God, this is absurd. The sovereignty of God does not stand or fall on man's response to the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Men and women could choose either way and it would not nor cannot impinge on the sovereignty of God. The sovereignty of God is an unquestionable fact in scripture even if we never existed. So those who would accuse us who reject Calvinism as opposing the sovereignty of God are sadly mistaken. Well, I have written enough for now. I will wait for whatever replies for continued discussions. Marantha!!

Arminianism is heresy. Not Calvinism. Call it "The Doctrines of Grace", "Calvinism", "Augustinianism"-- whatever, the truth is, it is [b]Pauline[/b]. When we who are Confessional Protestants quote men like Augustine, Calvin, the Puritans, etc... We are acknowledging that our doctrine is nothing new, and neither adding nor taking away from Scripture. We are humbling ourselves to recognize our own traditions. The old saying holds true, "He who thinks he has no tradition is in fact most enslaved by it." We know this is true because "there is nothing new under the sun."... As G.K. Chesterson says, "Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to that arrogant oligarchy who merely happen to be walking around." AND so let us remember history and not be fools!

Anyways, Everything you have asserted in the first post is reinventing the wheel. The arguments have been fleshed out and you have been thoroughly refuted. For now please read the canons of dordt where Arminianism was condemned internationally by godly protestants of the past. Don't be counted among the arminians!

The following is an introduction article to place the document of the canons of dordt in its proper historical context:

"The Decision of the Synod of Dordt on the Five Main Points of Doctrine in Dispute in the Netherlands is popularly known as the Canons of Dordt. It consists of statements of doctrine adopted by the great Synod of Dordt which met in the city of Dordrecht in 1618-19. Although this was a national synod of the Reformed churches of the Netherlands, it had an international character, since it was composed not only of Dutch delegates but also of twenty-six delegates from eight foreign countries.

The Synod of Dordt was held in order to settle a serious controversy in the Dutch churches initiated by the rise of Arminianism. Jacob Arminius, a theological professor at Leiden University, questioned the teaching of Calvin and his followers on a number of important points. After Arminius's death, his own followers presented their views on five of these points in the Remonstrance of 1610. In this document or in later more explicit writings, the Arminians taught election based on foreseen faith, universal atonement, partial depravity, resistible grace, and the possibility of a lapse from grace. In the Canons the Synod of Dordt rejected these views and set forth the Reformed doctrine on these points, namely, unconditional election, limited atonement, total depravity, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of saints.

The Canons have a special character because of their original purpose as a judicial decision on the doctrinal points in dispute during the Arminian controversy. The original preface called them a "judgment, in which both the true view, agreeing with God's Word, concerning the aforesaid five points of doctrine is explained, and the false view, disagreeing with God's Word, is rejected." The Canons also have a limited character in that they do not cover the whole range of doctrine, but focus on the five points of doctrine in dispute.

Each of the main points consists of a positive and a negative part, the former being an exposition of the Reformed doctrine on the subject, the latter a repudiation of the corresponding errors. Each of the errors being rejected is shown in bold maroon type. Although in form there are only four points, we speak properly of five points, because the Canons were structured to correspond to the five articles of the 1610 Remonstrance. Main Points 3 and 4 were combined into one, always designated as Main Point III/IV.

This translation of the Canons, based on the only extant Latin manuscript among those signed at the Synod of Dordt, was adopted by the 1986 Synod of the Christian Reformed Church. The biblical quotations are translations from the original Latin and so do not always correspond to current versions. Though not in the original text, subheadings have been added to the positive articles and to the conclusion in order to facilitate study of the Canons."

[image][img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/89/DordtSynod.jpg[/img]

http://reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://reformed.org/documents/canons_of_dordt.html

The next post will contain the canons of dordt refutation and condemnation of arminianism along with a defense of what is now days called, "Calvinism."

Y
yoadam

[b]The Canons of Dordt[/b]
[i]Formally Titled

The Decision of the Synod of Dordt on the Five Main Points of Doctrine in Dispute in the Netherlands

The First Main Point of Doctrine
Divine Election and Reprobation
The Judgment Concerning Divine Predestination
Which the Synod Declares to Be in Agreement with the Word of God
and Accepted Till Now in the Reformed Churches,
Set Forth in Several Articles[/i]

Article 1: God's Right to Condemn All People

Since all people have sinned in Adam and have come under the sentence of the curse and eternal death, God would have done no one an injustice if it had been his will to leave the entire human race in sin and under the curse, and to condemn them on account of their sin. As the apostle says: The whole world is liable to the condemnation of God (Rom. 3:19), All have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23), and The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23).*

--*All quotations from Scripture are translations of the original Latin manuscript.--

Article 2: The Manifestation of God's Love

But this is how God showed his love: he sent his only begotten Son into the world, so that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Article 3: The Preaching of the Gospel

In order that people may be brought to faith, God mercifully sends proclaimers of this very joyful message to the people he wishes and at the time he wishes. By this ministry people are called to repentance and faith in Christ crucified. For how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without someone preaching? And how shall they preach unless they have been sent? (Rom. 10:14-15).

Article 4: A Twofold Response to the Gospel

God's anger remains on those who do not believe this gospel. But those who do accept it and embrace Jesus the Savior with a true and living faith are delivered through him from God's anger and from destruction, and receive the gift of eternal life.

Article 5: The Sources of Unbelief and of Faith

The cause or blame for this unbelief, as well as for all other sins, is not at all in God, but in man. Faith in Jesus Christ, however, and salvation through him is a free gift of God. As Scripture says, It is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is a gift of God (Eph. 2:8). Likewise: It has been freely given to you to believe in Christ (Phil. 1:29).

Article 6: God's Eternal Decision

The fact that some receive from God the gift of faith within time, and that others do not, stems from his eternal decision. For all his works are known to God from eternity (Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:11). In accordance with this decision he graciously softens the hearts, however hard, of his chosen ones and inclines them to believe, but by his just judgment he leaves in their wickedness and hardness of heart those who have not been chosen. And in this especially is disclosed to us his act--unfathomable, and as merciful as it is just--of distinguishing between people equally lost. This is the well-known decision of election and reprobation revealed in God's Word. This decision the wicked, impure, and unstable distort to their own ruin, but it provides holy and godly souls with comfort beyond words.

Article 7: Election

Election [or choosing] is God's unchangeable purpose by which he did the following:

Before the foundation of the world, by sheer grace, according to the free good pleasure of his will, he chose in Christ to salvation a definite number of particular people out of the entire human race, which had fallen by its own fault from its original innocence into sin and ruin. Those chosen were neither better nor more deserving than the others, but lay with them in the common misery. He did this in Christ, whom he also appointed from eternity to be the mediator, the head of all those chosen, and the foundation of their salvation. And so he decided to give the chosen ones to Christ to be saved, and to call and draw them effectively into Christ's fellowship through his Word and Spirit. In other words, he decided to grant them true faith in Christ, to justify them, to sanctify them, and finally, after powerfully preserving them in the fellowship of his Son, to glorify them.

God did all this in order to demonstrate his mercy, to the praise of the riches of his glorious grace.

As Scripture says, God chose us in Christ, before the foundation of the world, so that we should be holy and blameless before him with love; he predestined us whom he adopted as his children through Jesus Christ, in himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, by which he freely made us pleasing to himself in his beloved (Eph. 1:4-6). And elsewhere, Those whom he predestined, he also called; and those whom he called, he also justified; and those whom he justified, he also glorified (Rom. 8:30).

Article 8: A Single Decision of Election

This election is not of many kinds; it is one and the same election for all who were to be saved in the Old and the New Testament. For Scripture declares that there is a single good pleasure, purpose, and plan of God's will, by which he chose us from eternity both to grace and to glory, both to salvation and to the way of salvation, which he prepared in advance for us to walk in.

Article 9: Election Not Based on Foreseen Faith

This same election took place, not on the basis of foreseen faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, or of any other good quality and disposition, as though it were based on a prerequisite cause or condition in the person to be chosen, but rather for the purpose of faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, and so on. Accordingly, election is the source of each of the benefits of salvation. Faith, holiness, and the other saving gifts, and at last eternal life itself, flow forth from election as its fruits and effects. As the apostle says, He chose us (not because we were, but) so that we should be holy and blameless before him in love (Eph. 1:4).

Article 10: Election Based on God's Good Pleasure

But the cause of this undeserved election is exclusively the good pleasure of God. This does not involve his choosing certain human qualities or actions from among all those possible as a condition of salvation, but rather involves his adopting certain particular persons from among the common mass of sinners as his own possession. As Scripture says, When the children were not yet born, and had done nothing either good or bad..., she (Rebecca) was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13). Also, All who were appointed for eternal life believed (Acts 13:48).

Article 11: Election Unchangeable

Just as God himself is most wise, unchangeable, all-knowing, and almighty, so the election made by him can neither be suspended nor altered, revoked, or annulled; neither can his chosen ones be cast off, nor their number reduced.

Article 12: The Assurance of Election

Assurance of this their eternal and unchangeable election to salvation is given to the chosen in due time, though by various stages and in differing measure. Such assurance comes not by inquisitive searching into the hidden and deep things of God, but by noticing within themselves, with spiritual joy and holy delight, the unmistakable fruits of election pointed out in God's Word-- such as a true faith in Christ, a childlike fear of God, a godly sorrow for their sins, a hunger and thirst for righteousness, and so on.

Article 13: The Fruit of This Assurance

In their awareness and assurance of this election God's children daily find greater cause to humble themselves before God, to adore the fathomless depth of his mercies, to cleanse themselves, and to give fervent love in return to him who first so greatly loved them. This is far from saying that this teaching concerning election, and reflection upon it, make God's children lax in observing his commandments or carnally self-assured. By God's just judgment this does usually happen to those who casually take for granted the grace of election or engage in idle and brazen talk about it but are unwilling to walk in the ways of the chosen.

Article 14: Teaching Election Properly

Just as, by God's wise plan, this teaching concerning divine election has been proclaimed through the prophets, Christ himself, and the apostles, in Old and New Testament times, and has subsequently been committed to writing in the Holy Scriptures, so also today in God's church, for which it was specifically intended, this teaching must be set forth--with a spirit of discretion, in a godly and holy manner, at the appropriate time and place, without inquisitive searching into the ways of the Most High. This must be done for the glory of God's most holy name, and for the lively comfort of his people.

Article 15: Reprobation

Moreover, Holy Scripture most especially highlights this eternal and undeserved grace of our election and brings it out more clearly for us, in that it further bears witness that not all people have been chosen but that some have not been chosen or have been passed by in God's eternal election-- those, that is, concerning whom God, on the basis of his entirely free, most just, irreproachable, and unchangeable good pleasure, made the following decision: to leave them in the common misery into which, by their own fault, they have plunged themselves; not to grant them saving faith and the grace of conversion; but finally to condemn and eternally punish them (having been left in their own ways and under his just judgment), not only for their unbelief but also for all their other sins, in order to display his justice. And this is the decision of reprobation, which does not at all make God the author of sin (a blasphemous thought!) but rather its fearful, irreproachable, just judge and avenger.

Article 16: Responses to the Teaching of Reprobation

Those who do not yet actively experience within themselves a living faith in Christ or an assured confidence of heart, peace of conscience, a zeal for childlike obedience, and a glorying in God through Christ, but who nevertheless use the means by which God has promised to work these things in us--such people ought not to be alarmed at the mention of reprobation, nor to count themselves among the reprobate; rather they ought to continue diligently in the use of the means, to desire fervently a time of more abundant grace, and to wait for it in reverence and humility. On the other hand, those who seriously desire to turn to God, to be pleasing to him alone, and to be delivered from the body of death, but are not yet able to make such progress along the way of godliness and faith as they would like--such people ought much less to stand in fear of the teaching concerning reprobation, since our merciful God has promised that he will not snuff out a smoldering wick and that he will not break a bruised reed. However, those who have forgotten God and their Savior Jesus Christ and have abandoned themselves wholly to the cares of the world and the pleasures of the flesh--such people have every reason to stand in fear of this teaching, as long as they do not seriously turn to God.

Article 17: The Salvation of the Infants of Believers

Since we must make judgments about God's will from his Word, which testifies that the children of believers are holy, not by nature but by virtue of the gracious covenant in which they together with their parents are included, godly parents ought not to doubt the election and salvation of their children whom God calls out of this life in infancy.

Article 18: The Proper Attitude Toward Election and Reprobation

To those who complain about this grace of an undeserved election and about the severity of a just reprobation, we reply with the words of the apostle, Who are you, O man, to talk back to God? (Rom. 9:20), and with the words of our Savior, Have I no right to do what I want with my own? (Matt. 20:15). We, however, with reverent adoration of these secret things, cry out with the apostle: Oh, the depths of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways beyond tracing out! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor? Or who has first given to God, that God should repay him? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen (Rom. 11:33-36).

Rejection of the Errors
by Which the Dutch Churches Have for Some Time Been Disturbed
Having set forth the orthodox teaching concerning election and reprobation, the Synod rejects the errors of those

I

Who teach that the will of God to save those who would believe and persevere in faith and in the obedience of faith is the whole and entire decision of election to salvation, and that nothing else concerning this decision has been revealed in God's Word.

For they deceive the simple and plainly contradict Holy Scripture in its testimony that God does not only wish to save those who would believe, but that he has also from eternity chosen certain particular people to whom, rather than to others, he would within time grant faith in Christ and perseverance. As Scripture says, I have revealed your name to those whom you gave me (John 17:6). Likewise, All who were appointed for eternal life believed (Acts 13:48), and He chose us before the foundation of the world so that we should be holy... (Eph. 1:4).

II

Who teach that God's election to eternal life is of many kinds: one general and indefinite, the other particular and definite; and the latter in turn either incomplete, revocable, nonperemptory (or conditional), or else complete, irrevocable, and peremptory (or absolute). Likewise, who teach that there is one election to faith and another to salvation, so that there can be an election to justifying faith apart from a peremptory election to salvation.

For this is an invention of the human brain, devised apart from the Scriptures, which distorts the teaching concerning election and breaks up this golden chain of salvation: Those whom he predestined, he also called; and those whom he called, he also justified; and those whom he justified, he also glorified (Rom. 8:30).

II

Who teach that God's good pleasure and purpose, which Scripture mentions in its teaching of election, does not involve God's choosing certain particular people rather than others, but involves God's choosing, out of all possible conditions (including the works of the law) or out of the whole order of things, the intrinsically unworthy act of faith, as well as the imperfect obedience of faith, to be a condition of salvation; and it involves his graciously wishing to count this as perfect obedience and to look upon it as worthy of the reward of eternal life.

For by this pernicious error the good pleasure of God and the merit of Christ are robbed of their effectiveness and people are drawn away, by unprofitable inquiries, from the truth of undeserved justification and from the simplicity of the Scriptures. It also gives the lie to these words of the apostle: God called us with a holy calling, not in virtue of works, but in virtue of his own purpose and the grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Tim. 1:9).

IV

Who teach that in election to faith a prerequisite condition is that man should rightly use the light of nature, be upright, unassuming, humble, and disposed to eternal life, as though election depended to some extent on these factors.

For this smacks of Pelagius, and it clearly calls into question the words of the apostle: We lived at one time in the passions of our flesh, following the will of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else. But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in transgressions, made us alive with Christ, by whose grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with him and seated us with him in heaven in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages we might show the surpassing riches of his grace, according to his kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith (and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God) not by works, so that no one can boast (Eph. 2:3-9).

V

Who teach that the incomplete and nonperemptory election of particular persons to salvation occurred on the basis of a foreseen faith, repentance, holiness, and godliness, which has just begun or continued for some time; but that complete and peremptory election occurred on the basis of a foreseen perseverance to the end in faith, repentance, holiness, and godliness. And that this is the gracious and evangelical worthiness, on account of which the one who is chosen is more worthy than the one who is not chosen. And therefore that faith, the obedience of faith, holiness, godliness, and perseverance are not fruits or effects of an unchangeable election to glory, but indispensable conditions and causes, which are prerequisite in those who are to be chosen in the complete election, and which are foreseen as achieved in them.

This runs counter to the entire Scripture, which throughout impresses upon our ears and hearts these sayings among others: Election is not by works, but by him who calls (Rom. 9:11-12); All who were appointed for eternal life believed (Acts 13:48); He chose us in himself so that we should be holy (Eph. 1:4); You did not choose me, but I chose you (John 15:16); If by grace, not by works (Rom. 11:6); In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son (1 John 4:10).

VI

Who teach that not every election to salvation is unchangeable, but that some of the chosen can perish and do in fact perish eternally, with no decision of God to prevent it.

By this gross error they make God changeable, destroy the comfort of the godly concerning the steadfastness of their election, and contradict the Holy Scriptures, which teach that the elect cannot be led astray (Matt. 24:24), that Christ does not lose those given to him by the Father (John 6:39), and that those whom God predestined, called, and justified, he also glorifies (Rom. 8:30).

VII

Who teach that in this life there is no fruit, no awareness, and no assurance of one's unchangeable election to glory, except as conditional upon something changeable and contingent.

For not only is it absurd to speak of an uncertain assurance, but these things also militate against the experience of the saints, who with the apostle rejoice from an awareness of their election and sing the praises of this gift of God; who, as Christ urged, rejoice with his disciples that their names have been written in heaven (Luke 10:20); and finally who hold up against the flaming arrows of the devil's temptations the awareness of their election, with the question Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? (Rom. 8:33).

VIII

Who teach that it was not on the basis of his just will alone that God decided to leave anyone in the fall of Adam and in the common state of sin and condemnation or to pass anyone by in the imparting of grace necessary for faith and conversion.

For these words stand fast: He has mercy on whom he wishes, and he hardens whom he wishes (Rom. 9:18). And also: To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given (Matt. 13:11). Likewise: I give glory to you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding, and have revealed them to little children; yes, Father, because that was your pleasure (Matt. 11:25-26).

IX

Who teach that the cause for God's sending the gospel to one people rather than to another is not merely and solely God's good pleasure, but rather that one people is better and worthier than the other to whom the gospel is not communicated.

For Moses contradicts this when he addresses the people of Israel as follows: Behold, to Jehovah your God belong the heavens and the highest heavens, the earth and whatever is in it. But Jehovah was inclined in his affection to love your ancestors alone, and chose out their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as at this day (Deut. 10:14-15). And also Christ: Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! for if those mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes (Matt. 11:21).
The Second Main Point of Doctrine
Christ's Death and Human Redemption Through Its

Article 1: The Punishment Which God's Justice Requires

God is not only supremely merciful, but also supremely just. His justice requires (as he has revealed himself in the Word) that the sins we have committed against his infinite majesty be punished with both temporal and eternal punishments, of soul as well as body. We cannot escape these punishments unless satisfaction is given to God's justice.

Article 2: The Satisfaction Made by Christ

Since, however, we ourselves cannot give this satisfaction or deliver ourselves from God's anger, God in his boundless mercy has given us as a guarantee his only begotten Son, who was made to be sin and a curse for us, in our place, on the cross, in order that he might give satisfaction for us.

Article 3: The Infinite Value of Christ's Death

This death of God's Son is the only and entirely complete sacrifice and satisfaction for sins; it is of infinite value and worth, more than sufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world.

Article 4: Reasons for This Infinite Value

This death is of such great value and worth for the reason that the person who suffered it is--as was necessary to be our Savior--not only a true and perfectly holy man, but also the only begotten Son of God, of the same eternal and infinite essence with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Another reason is that this death was accompanied by the experience of God's anger and curse, which we by our sins had fully deserved.

Article 5: The Mandate to Proclaim the Gospel to All

Moreover, it is the promise of the gospel that whoever believes in Christ crucified shall not perish but have eternal life. This promise, together with the command to repent and believe, ought to be announced and declared without differentiation or discrimination to all nations and people, to whom God in his good pleasure sends the gospel.

(to be continued...)

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(...continued)

Article 6: Unbelief Man's Responsibility

However, that many who have been called through the gospel do not repent or believe in Christ but perish in unbelief is not because the sacrifice of Christ offered on the cross is deficient or insufficient, but because they themselves are at fault.

Article 7: Faith God's Gift

But all who genuinely believe and are delivered and saved by Christ's death from their sins and from destruction receive this favor solely from God's grace--which he owes to no one--given to them in Christ from eternity.

Article 8: The Saving Effectiveness of Christ's Death

For it was the entirely free plan and very gracious will and intention of God the Father that the enlivening and saving effectiveness of his Son's costly death should work itself out in all his chosen ones, in order that he might grant justifying faith to them only and thereby lead them without fail to salvation. In other words, it was God's will that Christ through the blood of the cross (by which he confirmed the new covenant) should effectively redeem from every people, tribe, nation, and language all those and only those who were chosen from eternity to salvation and given to him by the Father; that he should grant them faith (which, like the Holy Spirit's other saving gifts, he acquired for them by his death); that he should cleanse them by his blood from all their sins, both original and actual, whether committed before or after their coming to faith; that he should faithfully preserve them to the very end; and that he should finally present them to himself, a glorious people, without spot or wrinkle.

Article 9: The Fulfillment of God's Plan

This plan, arising out of God's eternal love for his chosen ones, from the beginning of the world to the present time has been powerfully carried out and will also be carried out in the future, the gates of hell seeking vainly to prevail against it. As a result the chosen are gathered into one, all in their own time, and there is always a church of believers founded on Christ's blood, a church which steadfastly loves, persistently worships, and--here and in all eternity--praises him as her Savior who laid down his life for her on the cross, as a bridegroom for his bride.
Rejection of the Errors
Having set forth the orthodox teaching, the Synod rejects the errors of those

I

Who teach that God the Father appointed his Son to death on the cross without a fixed and definite plan to save anyone by name, so that the necessity, usefulness, and worth of what Christ's death obtained could have stood intact and altogether perfect, complete and whole, even if the redemption that was obtained had never in actual fact been applied to any individual.

For this assertion is an insult to the wisdom of God the Father and to the merit of Jesus Christ, and it is contrary to Scripture. For the Savior speaks as follows: I lay down my life for the sheep, and I know them (John 10:15, 27). And Isaiah the prophet says concerning the Savior: When he shall make himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days, and the will of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand (Isa. 53:10). Finally, this undermines the article of the creed in which we confess what we believe concerning the Church.

II

Who teach that the purpose of Christ's death was not to establish in actual fact a new covenant of grace by his blood, but only to acquire for the Father the mere right to enter once more into a covenant with men, whether of grace or of works.

For this conflicts with Scripture, which teaches that Christ has become the guarantee and mediator of a better--that is, a new-covenant (Heb. 7:22; 9:15), and that a will is in force only when someone has died (Heb. 9:17).

III

Who teach that Christ, by the satisfaction which he gave, did not certainly merit for anyone salvation itself and the faith by which this satisfaction of Christ is effectively applied to salvation, but only acquired for the Father the authority or plenary will to relate in a new way with men and to impose such new conditions as he chose, and that the satisfying of these conditions depends on the free choice of man; consequently, that it was possible that either all or none would fulfill them.

For they have too low an opinion of the death of Christ, do not at all acknowledge the foremost fruit or benefit which it brings forth, and summon back from hell the Pelagian error.

IV

Who teach that what is involved in the new covenant of grace which God the Father made with men through the intervening of Christ's death is not that we are justified before God and saved through faith, insofar as it accepts Christ's merit, but rather that God, having withdrawn his demand for perfect obedience to the law, counts faith itself, and the imperfect obedience of faith, as perfect obedience to the law, and graciously looks upon this as worthy of the reward of eternal life.

For they contradict Scripture: They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Jesus Christ, whom God presented as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood (Rom. 3:24-25). And along with the ungodly Socinus, they introduce a new and foreign justification of man before God, against the consensus of the whole church.

V

Who teach that all people have been received into the state of reconciliation and into the grace of the covenant, so that no one on account of original sin is liable to condemnation, or is to be condemned, but that all are free from the guilt of this sin.

For this opinion conflicts with Scripture which asserts that we are by nature children of wrath.

VI

Who make use of the distinction between obtaining and applying in order to instill in the unwary and inexperienced the opinion that God, as far as he is concerned, wished to bestow equally upon all people the benefits which are gained by Christ's death; but that the distinction by which some rather than others come to share in the forgiveness of sins and eternal life depends on their own free choice (which applies itself to the grace offered indiscriminately) but does not depend on the unique gift of mercy which effectively works in them, so that they, rather than others, apply that grace to themselves.

For, while pretending to set forth this distinction in an acceptable sense, they attempt to give the people the deadly poison of Pelagianism.

VII

Who teach that Christ neither could die, nor had to die, nor did die for those whom God so dearly loved and chose to eternal life, since such people do not need the death of Christ.

For they contradict the apostle, who says: Christ loved me and gave himself up for me (Gal. 2:20), and likewise: Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? It is Christ who died, that is, for them (Rom. 8:33-34). They also contradict the Savior, who asserts: I lay down my life for the sheep (John 10:15), and My command is this: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends (John 15:12-13).
The Third and Fourth Main Points of Doctrine
Human Corruption, Conversion to God, and the Way It Occurs

Article 1: The Effect of the Fall on Human Nature

Man was originally created in the image of God and was furnished in his mind with a true and salutary knowledge of his Creator and things spiritual, in his will and heart with righteousness, and in all his emotions with purity; indeed, the whole man was holy. However, rebelling against God at the devil's instigation and by his own free will, he deprived himself of these outstanding gifts. Rather, in their place he brought upon himself blindness, terrible darkness, futility, and distortion of judgment in his mind; perversity, defiance, and hardness in his heart and will; and finally impurity in all his emotions.

Article 2: The Spread of Corruption

Man brought forth children of the same nature as himself after the fall. That is to say, being corrupt he brought forth corrupt children. The corruption spread, by God's just judgment, from Adam to all his descendants-- except for Christ alone--not by way of imitation (as in former times the Pelagians would have it) but by way of the propagation of his perverted nature.

Article 3: Total Inability

Therefore, all people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin; without the grace of the regenerating Holy Spirit they are neither willing nor able to return to God, to reform their distorted nature, or even to dispose themselves to such reform.

Article 4: The Inadequacy of the Light of Nature

There is, to be sure, a certain light of nature remaining in man after the fall, by virtue of which he retains some notions about God, natural things, and the difference between what is moral and immoral, and demonstrates a certain eagerness for virtue and for good outward behavior. But this light of nature is far from enabling man to come to a saving knowledge of God and conversion to him--so far, in fact, that man does not use it rightly even in matters of nature and society. Instead, in various ways he completely distorts this light, whatever its precise character, and suppresses it in unrighteousness. In doing so he renders himself without excuse before God.

Article 5: The Inadequacy of the Law

In this respect, what is true of the light of nature is true also of the Ten Commandments given by God through Moses specifically to the Jews. For man cannot obtain saving grace through the Decalogue, because, although it does expose the magnitude of his sin and increasingly convict him of his guilt, yet it does not offer a remedy or enable him to escape from his misery, and, indeed, weakened as it is by the flesh, leaves the offender under the curse.

Article 6: The Saving Power of the Gospel

What, therefore, neither the light of nature nor the law can do, God accomplishes by the power of the Holy Spirit, through the Word or the ministry of reconciliation. This is the gospel about the Messiah, through which it has pleased God to save believers, in both the Old and the New Testament.

Article 7: God's Freedom in Revealing the Gospel

In the Old Testament, God revealed this secret of his will to a small number; in the New Testament (now without any distinction between peoples) he discloses it to a large number. The reason for this difference must not be ascribed to the greater worth of one nation over another, or to a better use of the light of nature, but to the free good pleasure and undeserved love of God. Therefore, those who receive so much grace, beyond and in spite of all they deserve, ought to acknowledge it with humble and thankful hearts; on the other hand, with the apostle they ought to adore (but certainly not inquisitively search into) the severity and justice of God's judgments on the others, who do not receive this grace.

Article 8: The Serious Call of the Gospel

Nevertheless, all who are called through the gospel are called seriously. For seriously and most genuinely God makes known in his Word what is pleasing to him: that those who are called should come to him. Seriously he also promises rest for their souls and eternal life to all who come to him and believe.

Article 9: Human Responsibility for Rejecting the Gospel

The fact that many who are called through the ministry of the gospel do not come and are not brought to conversion must not be blamed on the gospel, nor on Christ, who is offered through the gospel, nor on God, who calls them through the gospel and even bestows various gifts on them, but on the people themselves who are called. Some in self-assurance do not even entertain the Word of life; others do entertain it but do not take it to heart, and for that reason, after the fleeting joy of a temporary faith, they relapse; others choke the seed of the Word with the thorns of life's cares and with the pleasures of the world and bring forth no fruits. This our Savior teaches in the parable of the sower (Matt. 13).

Article 10: Conversion as the Work of God

The fact that others who are called through the ministry of the gospel do come and are brought to conversion must not be credited to man, as though one distinguishes himself by free choice from others who are furnished with equal or sufficient grace for faith and conversion (as the proud heresy of Pelagius maintains). No, it must be credited to God: just as from eternity he chose his own in Christ, so within time he effectively calls them, grants them faith and repentance, and, having rescued them from the dominion of darkness, brings them into the kingdom of his Son, in order that they may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called them out of darkness into this marvelous light, and may boast not in themselves, but in the Lord, as apostolic words frequently testify in Scripture.

Article 11: The Holy Spirit's Work in Conversion

Moreover, when God carries out this good pleasure in his chosen ones, or works true conversion in them, he not only sees to it that the gospel is proclaimed to them outwardly, and enlightens their minds powerfully by the Holy Spirit so that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God, but, by the effective operation of the same regenerating Spirit, he also penetrates into the inmost being of man, opens the closed heart, softens the hard heart, and circumcises the heart that is uncircumcised. He infuses new qualities into the will, making the dead will alive, the evil one good, the unwilling one willing, and the stubborn one compliant; he activates and strengthens the will so that, like a good tree, it may be enabled to produce the fruits of good deeds.

Article 12: Regeneration a Supernatural Work

And this is the regeneration, the new creation, the raising from the dead, and the making alive so clearly proclaimed in the Scriptures, which God works in us without our help. But this certainly does not happen only by outward teaching, by moral persuasion, or by such a way of working that, after God has done his work, it remains in man's power whether or not to be reborn or converted. Rather, it is an entirely supernatural work, one that is at the same time most powerful and most pleasing, a marvelous, hidden, and inexpressible work, which is not lesser than or inferior in power to that of creation or of raising the dead, as Scripture (inspired by the author of this work) teaches. As a result, all those in whose hearts God works in this marvelous way are certainly, unfailingly, and effectively reborn and do actually believe. And then the will, now renewed, is not only activated and motivated by God but in being activated by God is also itself active. For this reason, man himself, by that grace which he has received, is also rightly said to believe and to repent.

Article 13: The Incomprehensible Way of Regeneration

In this life believers cannot fully understand the way this work occurs; meanwhile, they rest content with knowing and experiencing that by this grace of God they do believe with the heart and love their Savior.

Article 14: The Way God Gives Faith

In this way, therefore, faith is a gift of God, not in the sense that it is offered by God for man to choose, but that it is in actual fact bestowed on man, breathed and infused into him. Nor is it a gift in the sense that God bestows only the potential to believe, but then awaits assent--the act of believing--from man's choice; rather, it is a gift in the sense that he who works both willing and acting and, indeed, works all things in all people produces in man both the will to believe and the belief itself.

Article 15: Responses to God's Grace

God does not owe this grace to anyone. For what could God owe to one who has nothing to give that can be paid back? Indeed, what could God owe to one who has nothing of his own to give but sin and falsehood? Therefore the person who receives this grace owes and gives eternal thanks to God alone; the person who does not receive it either does not care at all about these spiritual things and is satisfied with himself in his condition, or else in self-assurance foolishly boasts about having something which he lacks. Furthermore, following the example of the apostles, we are to think and to speak in the most favorable way about those who outwardly profess their faith and better their lives, for the inner chambers of the heart are unknown to us. But for others who have not yet been called, we are to pray to the God who calls things that do not exist as though they did. In no way, however, are we to pride ourselves as better than they, as though we had distinguished ourselves from them.

Article 16: Regeneration's Effect

However, just as by the fall man did not cease to be man, endowed with intellect and will, and just as sin, which has spread through the whole human race, did not abolish the nature of the human race but distorted and spiritually killed it, so also this divine grace of regeneration does not act in people as if they were blocks and stones; nor does it abolish the will and its properties or coerce a reluctant will by force, but spiritually revives, heals, reforms, and--in a manner at once pleasing and powerful--bends it back. As a result, a ready and sincere obedience of the Spirit now begins to prevail where before the rebellion and resistance of the flesh were completely dominant. It is in this that the true and spiritual restoration and freedom of our will consists. Thus, if the marvelous Maker of every good thing were not dealing with us, man would have no hope of getting up from his fall by his free choice, by which he plunged himself into ruin when still standing upright.

Article 17: God's Use of Means in Regeneration

Just as the almighty work of God by which he brings forth and sustains our natural life does not rule out but requires the use of means, by which God, according to his infinite wisdom and goodness, has wished to exercise his power, so also the aforementioned supernatural work of God by which he regenerates us in no way rules out or cancels the use of the gospel, which God in his great wisdom has appointed to be the seed of regeneration and the food of the soul. For this reason, the apostles and the teachers who followed them taught the people in a godly manner about this grace of God, to give him the glory and to humble all pride, and yet did not neglect meanwhile to keep the people, by means of the holy admonitions of the gospel, under the administration of the Word, the sacraments, and discipline. So even today it is out of the question that the teachers or those taught in the church should presume to test God by separating what he in his good pleasure has wished to be closely joined together. For grace is bestowed through admonitions, and the more readily we perform our duty, the more lustrous the benefit of God working in us usually is and the better his work advances. To him alone, both for the means and for their saving fruit and effectiveness, all glory is owed forever. Amen.

Rejection of the Errors
Having set forth the orthodox teaching, the Synod rejects the errors of those

I

Who teach that, properly speaking, it cannot be said that original sin in itself is enough to condemn the whole human race or to warrant temporal and eternal punishments.

For they contradict the apostle when he says: Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death passed on to all men because all sinned (Rom. 5:12); also: The guilt followed one sin and brought condemnation (Rom. 5:16); likewise: The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23).

II

Who teach that the spiritual gifts or the good dispositions and virtues such as goodness, holiness, and righteousness could not have resided in man's will when he was first created, and therefore could not have been separated from the will at the fall.

For this conflicts with the apostle's description of the image of God in Ephesians 4:24, where he portrays the image in terms of righteousness and holiness, which definitely reside in the will.

III

Who teach that in spiritual death the spiritual gifts have not been separated from man's will, since the will in itself has never been corrupted but only hindered by the darkness of the mind and the unruliness of the emotions, and since the will is able to exercise its innate free capacity once these hindrances are removed, which is to say, it is able of itself to will or choose whatever good is set before it--or else not to will or choose it.

This is a novel idea and an error and has the effect of elevating the power of free choice, contrary to the words of Jeremiah the prophet: The heart itself is deceitful above all things and wicked (Jer. 17:9); and of the words of the apostle: All of us also lived among them (the sons of disobedience) at one time in the passions of our flesh, following the will of our flesh and thoughts (Eph. 2:3).

IV

Who teach that unregenerate man is not strictly or totally dead in his sins or deprived of all capacity for spiritual good but is able to hunger and thirst for righteousness or life and to offer the sacrifice of a broken and contrite spirit which is pleasing to God.

For these views are opposed to the plain testimonies of Scripture: You were dead in your transgressions and sins (Eph. 2:1, 5); The imagination of the thoughts of man's heart is only evil all the time (Gen. 6:5; 8:21). Besides, to hunger and thirst for deliverance from misery and for life, and to offer God the sacrifice of a broken spirit is characteristic only of the regenerate and of those called blessed (Ps. 51:17; Matt. 5:6).

V

Who teach that corrupt and natural man can make such good use of common grace(by which they mean the light of nature)or of the gifts remaining after the fall that he is able thereby gradually to obtain a greater grace-- evangelical or saving grace--as well as salvation itself; and that in this way God, for his part, shows himself ready to reveal Christ to all people, since he provides to all, to a sufficient extent and in an effective manner, the means necessary for the revealing of Christ, for faith, and for repentance.

For Scripture, not to mention the experience of all ages, testifies that this is false: He makes known his words to Jacob, his statutes and his laws to Israel; he has done this for no other nation, and they do not know his laws (Ps. 147:19-20); In the past God let all nations go their own way (Acts 14:16); They (Paul and his companions) were kept by the Holy Spirit from speaking God's word in Asia; and When they had come to Mysia, they tried to go to Bithynia, but the Spirit would not allow them to (Acts 16:6-7).

VI

Who teach that in the true conversion of man new qualities, dispositions, or gifts cannot be infused or poured into his will by God, and indeed that the faith [or believing] by which we first come to conversion and from which we receive the name "believers" is not a quality or gift infused by God, but only an act of man, and that it cannot be called a gift except in respect to the power of attaining faith.

For these views contradict the Holy Scriptures, which testify that God does infuse or pour into our hearts the new qualities of faith, obedience, and the experiencing of his love: I will put my law in their minds, and write it on their hearts (Jer. 31:33); I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring (Isa. 44:3); The love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us (Rom. 5:5). They also conflict with the continuous practice of the Church, which prays with the prophet: Convert me, Lord, and I shall be converted (Jer. 31:18).

VII

Who teach that the grace by which we are converted to God is nothing but a gentle persuasion, or(as others explain it) that the way of God's acting in man's conversion that is most noble and suited to human nature is that which happens by persuasion, and that nothing prevents this grace of moral suasion even by itself from making natural men spiritual; indeed, that God does not produce the assent of the will except in this manner of moral suasion, and that the effectiveness of God's work by which it surpasses the work of Satan consists in the fact that God promises eternal benefits while Satan promises temporal ones.

For this teaching is entirely Pelagian and contrary to the whole of Scripture, which recognizes besides this persuasion also another, far more effective and divine way in which the Holy Spirit acts in man's conversion. As Ezekiel 36:26 puts it: I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; and I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh....

VIII

Who teach that God in regenerating man does not bring to bear that power of his omnipotence whereby he may powerfully and unfailingly bend man's will to faith and conversion, but that even when God has accomplished all the works of grace which he uses for man's conversion, man nevertheless can, and in actual fact often does, so resist God and the Spirit in their intent and will to regenerate him, that man completely thwarts his own rebirth; and, indeed, that it remains in his own power whether or not to be reborn.

For this does away with all effective functioning of God's grace in our conversion and subjects the activity of Almighty God to the will of man; it is contrary to the apostles, who teach that we believe by virtue of the effective working of God's mighty strength (Eph. 1:19), and that God fulfills the undeserved good will of his kindness and the work of faith in us with power (2 Thess. 1:11), and likewise that his divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3).

IX

Who teach that grace and free choice are concurrent partial causes which cooperate to initiate conversion, and that grace does not precede--in the order of causality--the effective influence of the will;that is to say,that God does not effectively help man's will to come to conversion before man's will itself motivates and determines itself.

For the early church already condemned this doctrine long ago in the Pelagians, on the basis of the words of the apostle: It does not depend on man's willing or running but on God's mercy (Rom. 9:16); also: Who makes you different from anyone else? and What do you have that you did not receive? (1 Cor. 4:7); likewise: It is God who works in you to will and act according to his good pleasure (Phil. 2:13).
The Fifth Main Point of Doctrine
The Perseverance of the Saints

Article 1: The Regenerate Not Entirely Free from Sin

Those people whom God according to his purpose calls into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord and regenerates by the Holy Spirit, he also sets free from the reign and slavery of sin, though in this life not entirely from the flesh and from the body of sin.

Article 2: The Believer's Reaction to Sins of Weakness

Hence daily sins of weakness arise, and blemishes cling to even the best works of God's people, giving them continual cause to humble themselves before God, to flee for refuge to Christ crucified, to put the flesh to death more and more by the Spirit of supplication and by holy exercises of godliness, and to strain toward the goal of perfection, until they are freed from this body of death and reign with the Lamb of God in heaven.

Article 3: God's Preservation of the Converted

Because of these remnants of sin dwelling in them and also because of the temptations of the world and Satan, those who have been converted could not remain standing in this grace if left to their own resources. But God is faithful, mercifully strengthening them in the grace once conferred on them and powerfully preserving them in it to the end.

Article 4: The Danger of True Believers' Falling into Serious Sins

Although that power of God strengthening and preserving true believers in grace is more than a match for the flesh, yet those converted are not always so activated and motivated by God that in certain specific actions they cannot by their own fault depart from the leading of grace, be led astray by the desires of the flesh, and give in to them. For this reason they must constantly watch and pray that they may not be led into temptations. When they fail to do this, not onlycan they be carried away by the flesh, the world, and Satan into sins, even serious and outrageous ones, but also by God's just permission they sometimesare so carried away--witness the sad cases, described in Scripture, of David, Peter, and other saints falling into sins.

Article 5: The Effects of Such Serious Sins

By such monstrous sins, however, they greatly offend God, deserve the sentence of death, grieve the Holy Spirit, suspend the exercise of faith, severely wound the conscience, and sometimes lose the awareness of grace for a time--until, after they have returned to the way by genuine repentance, God's fatherly face again shines upon them.

Article 6: God's Saving Intervention

For God, who is rich in mercy, according to his unchangeable purpose of election does not take his Holy Spirit from his own completely, even when they fall grievously. Neither does he let them fall down so far that they forfeit the grace of adoption and the state of justification, or commit the sin which leads to death (the sin against the Holy Spirit), and plunge themselves, entirely forsaken by him, into eternal ruin.

Article 7: Renewal to Repentance

For, in the first place, God preserves in those saints when they fall his imperishable seed from which they have been born again, lest it perish or be dislodged. Secondly, by his Word and Spirit he certainly and effectively renews them to repentance so that they have a heartfelt and godly sorrow for the sins they have committed; seek and obtain, through faith and with a contrite heart, forgiveness in the blood of the Mediator; experience again the grace of a reconciled God; through faith adore his mercies; and from then on more eagerly work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

Article 8: The Certainty of This Preservation

So it is not by their own merits or strength but by God's undeserved mercy that they neither forfeit faith and grace totally nor remain in their downfalls to the end and are lost. With respect to themselves this not only easily could happen, but also undoubtedly would happen; but with respect to God it cannot possibly happen, since his plan cannot be changed, his promise cannot fail, the calling according to his purpose cannot be revoked, the merit of Christ as well as his interceding and preserving cannot be nullified, and the sealing of the Holy Spirit can neither be invalidated nor wiped out.

Article 9: The Assurance of This Preservation

Concerning this preservation of those chosen to salvation and concerning the perseverance of true believers in faith, believers themselves can and do become assured in accordance with the measure of their faith, by which they firmly believe that they are and always will remain true and living members of the church, and that they have the forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

Article 10: The Ground of This Assurance

Accordingly, this assurance does not derive from some private revelation beyond or outside the Word, but from faith in the promises of God which he has very plentifully revealed in his Word for our comfort, from the testimony of the Holy Spirit testifying with our spirit that we are God's children and heirs (Rom. 8:16-17), and finally from a serious and holy pursuit of a clear conscience and of good works. And if God's chosen ones in this world did not have this well-founded comfort that the victory will be theirs and this reliable guarantee of eternal glory, they would be of all people most miserable.

Article 11: Doubts Concerning This Assurance

Meanwhile, Scripture testifies that believers have to contend in this life with various doubts of the flesh and that under severe temptation they do not always experience this full assurance of faith and certainty of perseverance. But God, the Father of all comfort, does not let them be tempted beyond what they can bear, but with the temptation he also provides a way out (1 Cor. 10:13), and by the Holy Spirit revives in them the assurance of their perseverance.

Article 12: This Assurance as an Incentive to Godliness

This assurance of perseverance, however, so far from making true believers proud and carnally self-assured, is rather the true root of humility, of childlike respect, of genuine godliness, of endurance in every conflict, of fervent prayers, of steadfastness in crossbearing and in confessing the truth, and of well-founded joy in God. Reflecting on this benefit provides an incentive to a serious and continual practice of thanksgiving and good works, as is evident from the testimonies of Scripture and the examples of the saints.

Article 13: Assurance No Inducement to Carelessness

Neither does the renewed confidence of perseverance produce immorality or lack of concern for godliness in those put back on their feet after a fall, but it produces a much greater concern to observe carefully the ways of the Lord which he prepared in advance. They observe these ways in order that by walking in them they may maintain the assurance of their perseverance, lest, by their abuse of his fatherly goodness, the face of the gracious God (for the godly, looking upon his face is sweeter than life, but its withdrawal is more bitter than death) turn away from them again, with the result that they fall into greater anguish of spirit.

Article 14: God's Use of Means in Perseverance

And, just as it has pleased God to begin this work of grace in us by the proclamation of the gospel, so he preserves, continues, and completes his work by the hearing and reading of the gospel, by meditation on it, by its exhortations, threats, and promises, and also by the use of the sacraments.

Article 15: Contrasting Reactions to the Teaching of Perseverance

This teaching about the perseverance of true believers and saints, and about their assurance of it--a teaching which God has very richly revealed in his Word for the glory of his name and for the comfort of the godly and which he impresses on the hearts of believers--is something which the flesh does not understand, Satan hates, the world ridicules, the ignorant and the hypocrites abuse, and the spirits of error attack. The bride of Christ, on the other hand, has always loved this teaching very tenderly and defended it steadfastly as a priceless treasure; and God, against whom no plan can avail and no strength can prevail, will ensure that she will continue to do this. To this God alone, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, be honor and glory forever. Amen.

Rejection of the Errors
Concerning the Teaching of the Perseverance of the Saints

Having set forth the orthodox teaching, the Synod rejects the errors of those

I

Who teach that the perseverance of true believers is not an effect of election or a gift of God produced by Christ's death, but a condition of the new covenant which man, beforewhat they callhis "peremptory" election and justification, must fulfill by his free will.

For Holy Scripture testifies that perseverance follows from election and is granted to the chosen by virtue of Christ's death, resurrection, and intercession: The chosen obtained it; the others were hardened (Rom. 11:7); likewise, He who did not spare his own son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not, along with him, grant us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died--more than that, who was raised--who also sits at the right hand of God, and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? (Rom. 8:32-35).

II

Who teach that God does provide the believer with sufficient strength to persevere and is ready to preserve this strength in him if he performs his duty, but that even with all those things in place which are necessary to persevere in faith and which God is pleased to use to preserve faith, it still always depends on the choice of man's will whether or not he perseveres.

For this view is obviously Pelagian; and though it intends to make men free it makes them sacrilegious. It is against the enduring consensus of evangelical teaching which takes from man all cause for boasting and ascribes the praise for this benefit only to God's grace. It is also against the testimony of the apostle: It is God who keeps us strong to the end, so that we will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 1:8).

III

Who teach that those who truly believe and have been born again not only can forfeit justifying faith as well as grace and salvation totally and to the end, but also in actual fact do often forfeit them and are lost forever.

For this opinion nullifies the very grace of justification and regeneration as well as the continual preservation by Christ, contrary to the plain words of the apostle Paul: If Christ died for us while we were still sinners, we will therefore much more be saved from God's wrath through him, since we have now been justified by his blood (Rom. 5:8-9); and contrary to the apostle John: No one who is born of God is intent on sin, because God's seed remains in him, nor can he sin, because he has been born of God (1 John 3:9); also contrary to the words of Jesus Christ: I give eternal life to my sheep, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand (John 10: 28-29).

IV

Who teach that those who truly believe and have been born again can commit the sin that leads to death (the sin against the Holy Spirit).

For the same apostle John, after making mention of those who commit the sin that leads to death and forbidding prayer for them (1 John 5: 16-17), immediately adds: We know that anyone born of God does not commit sin (that is, that kind of sin), but the one who was born of God keeps himself safe, and the evil one does not touch him (v. 18).

V

Who teach that apart from a special revelation no one can have the assurance of future perseverance in this life.

For by this teaching the well-founded consolation of true believers in this life is taken away and the doubting of the Romanists is reintroduced into the church. Holy Scripture, however, in many places derives the assurance not from a special and extraordinary revelation but from the marks peculiar to God's children and from God's completely reliable promises. So especially the apostle Paul: Nothing in all creation can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom. 8:39); and John: They who obey his commands remain in him and he in them. And this is how we know that he remains in us: by the Spirit he gave us (1 John 3:24).

VI

Who teach that the teaching of the assurance of perseverance and of salvation is by its very nature and character an opiate of the flesh and is harmful to godliness, good morals, prayer, and other holy exercises, but that, on the contrary, to have doubt about this is praiseworthy.

For these people show that they do not know the effective operation of God's grace and the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and they contradict the apostle John, who asserts the opposite in plain words: Dear friends, now we are children of God, but what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he is made known, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure (1 John 3:2-3). Moreover, they are refuted by the examples of the saints in both the Old and the New Testament, who though assured of their perseverance and salvation yet were constant in prayer and other exercises of godliness.

VII

Who teach that the faith of those who believe only temporarily does not differ from justifying and saving faith except in duration alone.

For Christ himself in Matthew 13:20ff. and Luke 8:13ff. clearly defines these further differences between temporary and true believers: he says that the former receive the seed on rocky ground, and the latter receive it in good ground, or a good heart; the former have no root, and the latter are firmly rooted; the former have no fruit, and the latter produce fruit in varying measure, with steadfastness, or perseverance.

VIII

Who teach that it is not absurd that a person, after losing his former regeneration, should once again, indeed quite often, be reborn.

For by this teaching they deny the imperishable nature of God's seed by which we are born again, contrary to the testimony of the apostle Peter: Born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable (1 Pet. 1:23).

IX

Who teach that Christ nowhere prayed for an unfailing perseverance of believers in faith.

For they contradict Christ himself when he says: I have prayed for you, Peter, that your faith may not fail (Luke 22:32); and John the gospel writer when he testifies in John 17 that it was not only for the apostles, but also for all those who were to believe by their message that Christ prayed: Holy Father, preserve them in your name (v. 11); and My prayer is not that you take them out of the world, but that you preserve them from the evil one (v. 15).
Conclusion
Rejection of False Accusations

And so this is the clear, simple, and straightforward explanation of the orthodox teaching on the five articles in dispute in the Netherlands, as well as the rejection of the errors by which the Dutch churches have for some time been disturbed. This explanation and rejection the Synod declares to be derived from God's Word and in agreement with the confessions of the Reformed churches. Hence it clearly appears that those of whom one could hardly expect it have shown no truth, equity, and charity at all in wishing to make the public believe:

--that the teaching of the Reformed churches on predestination and on the points associated with it by its very nature and tendency draws the minds of people away from all godliness and religion, is an opiate of the flesh and the devil, and is a stronghold of Satan where he lies in wait for all people, wounds most of them, and fatally pierces many of them with the arrows of both despair and self-assurance;

--that this teaching makes God the author of sin, unjust, a tyrant, and a hypocrite; and is nothing but a refurbished Stoicism, Manicheism, Libertinism, and Mohammedanism;

--that this teaching makes people carnally self-assured, since it persuades them that nothing endangers the salvation of the chosen, no matter how they live, so that they may commit the most outrageous crimes with self-assurance; and that on the other hand nothing is of use to the reprobate for salvation even if they have truly performed all the works of the saints;

--that this teaching means that God predestined and created, by the bare and unqualified choice of his will, without the least regard or consideration of any sin, the greatest part of the world to eternal condemnation; that in the same manner in which election is the source and cause of faith and good works, reprobation is the cause of unbelief and ungodliness; that many infant children of believers are snatched in their innocence from their mothers' breasts and cruelly cast into hell so that neither the blood of Christ nor their baptism nor the prayers of the church at their baptism can be of any use to them; and very many other slanderous accusations of this kind which the Reformed churches not only disavow but even denounce with their whole heart.

Therefore this Synod of Dordt in the name of the Lord pleads with all who devoutly call on the name of our Savior Jesus Christ to form their judgment about the faith of the Reformed churches, not on the basis of false accusations gathered from here or there, or even on the basis of the personal statements of a number of ancient and modern authorities--statements which are also often either quoted out of context or misquoted and twisted to convey a different meaning--but on the basis of the churches' own official confessions and of the present explanation of the orthodox teaching which has been endorsed by the unanimous consent of the members of the whole Synod, one and all.

Moreover, the Synod earnestly warns the false accusers themselves to consider how heavy a judgment of God awaits those who give false testimony against so many churches and their confessions, trouble the consciences of the weak, and seek to prejudice the minds of many against the fellowship of true believers.

Finally, this Synod urges all fellow ministers in the gospel of Christ to deal with this teaching in a godly and reverent manner, in the academic institutions as well as in the churches; to do so, both in their speaking and writing, with a view to the glory of God's name, holiness of life, and the comfort of anxious souls; to think and also speak with Scripture according to the analogy of faith; and, finally, to refrain from all those ways of speaking which go beyond the bounds set for us by the genuine sense of the Holy Scriptures and which could give impertinent sophists a just occasion to scoff at the teaching of the Reformed churches or even to bring false accusations against it.

May God's Son Jesus Christ, who sits at the right hand of God and gives gifts to men, sanctify us in the truth, lead to the truth those who err, silence the mouths of those who lay false accusations against sound teaching, and equip faithful ministers of his Word with a spirit of wisdom and discretion, that all they say may be to the glory of God and the building up of their hearers. Amen.

http://reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://reformed.org/documents/canons_of_dordt.html

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Furthermore, here are the Five points of calvinism, also known as TULIP. Tulip was formulated in response to arminians who disagreed with these 5 points of protestant doctrine.

The following is [i]Taken from The Five Points of Calvinism by David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas. Presbyterian & Reformed Publishing Co., 1963. pp. 16-19.[/i]

[b]T.U.L.I.P.[/b]

1. Total Inability or Total Depravity

Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assitance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

2. Unconditional Election

God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God’s choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God’s choice of the sinner, not the sinner’s choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

3. Particular Redemption or Limited Atonement

Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ’s redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unties them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

4. The Efficacious Call of the Spirit or Irresistible Grace

In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work or applying salvation by man’s will, nor is He dependent upon man’s cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God’s grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

5. Perseverance of the Saints

All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.

According to Calvinism:

Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

[b]SCRIPTURE PROOFS:[/b]

[b]T. Total Depravity
TOTAL DEPRAVITY - (Sinful Nature)[/b]

Genesis 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every intent of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

Isaiah 64:6 ¶ But we are all like an unclean [thing], And all our righteousnesses [are] like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Isaiah 59:7 Their feet run to evil, And they make haste to shed innocent blood; Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; Wasting and destruction are in their paths.

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.

Mark 7:21-23 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, (22) "thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. (23) "All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 14:17 "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

Romans 3:9-18 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
(10) As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; (11) There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. (12) They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." (13) "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps is under their lips"; (14) "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." (15) "Their feet are swift to shed blood; (16) Destruction and misery are in their ways; (17) And the way of peace they have not known." (18) "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:14-19 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (15) But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. (16) And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. (17) For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
(18) Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. (19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Ephesians 2:1-2 1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, (5) even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Titus 1:15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.

1Pet 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Psalms 143:2 Do not enter into judgment with Your servant, For in Your sight no one living is righteous.

Isaiah 65:12 Therefore I will number you for the sword, And you shall all bow down to the slaughter; Because, when I called, you did not answer; When I spoke, you did not hear, But did evil before My eyes, And chose [that] in which I do not delight."

Isaiah 66:4 So will I choose their delusions, And bring their fears on them; Because, when I called, no one answered, When I spoke they did not hear; But they did evil before My eyes, And chose [that] in which I do not delight."

Westminster Confession -
9:3 Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation (Joh_15:5; Rom_5:6; Rom_8:7): so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good (Rom_3:10, Rom_3:12), and dead in sin (Eph_2:1, Eph_2:5; Col_2:13), is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto (Joh_6:44, Joh_6:65; 1Co_2:14; Eph_2:2-5; Tit_3:3-5).

[b]U. Unconditional Election
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (Predestination) -[/b]

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Acts 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (30) Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 9:11-13 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (12) it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." (13) As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
Romans 2:11 For there is no partiality with God.

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 9:29 And as Isaiah said before: "Unless the LORD of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We would have become like Sodom, And we would have been made like Gomorrah."
{If God had not elected some to salvation, all would be lost; had God not chosen some, none would be saved.}

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Ephesians 1:4-5 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (5) having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1Thes 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

2Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (2) elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

1 Peter 2:6-9 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame." (7) Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone," (8) and "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. (9) But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

2Pet 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Psalms 65:4 Blessed [is the man] You choose, And cause to approach [You, That] he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.

Exodus 6:7 "I will take you as My people, and I will be your God. Then you shall know that I [am] the LORD your God who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians."

Deuteronomy 7:6 "For you [are] a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth.

Isaiah 43:20-21 The beast of the field will honor Me, The jackals and the ostriches, Because I give waters in the wilderness [And] rivers in the desert, To give drink to My people, My chosen.(21) This people I have formed for Myself; They shall declare My praise.

Malachi 3:16-18 Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, And the LORD listened and heard [them]; So a book of remembrance was written before Him For those who fear the LORD And who meditate on His name. (17) "They shall be Mine," says the LORD of hosts, "On the day that I make them My jewels. And I will spare them As a man spares his own son who serves him." (18) Then you shall again discern Between the righteous and the wicked, Between one who serves God And one who does not serve Him.

[b]L. Limited Atonement
LIMITED ATONEMENT - {Particular Redemption}[/b]

Psa 85:2 Thou hast forgiven the iniquity of thy people, thou hast covered all their sin. Selah.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:35-40 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. (36) "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. (37) "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. (38) "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. (39) "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. (40) "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 10:14-16 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. (15) "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. (16) "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
(Christ died for His sheep, NOT the goats.)

1 Corinthians 1:22-24 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; (23) but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, (24) but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
{The general calling is the gospel message being heard by Jews & Gentiles (the world). The effectual calling only occurs among the Elect of God..."those who are called". For them, the gospel message is "the power & wisdom of God". For all the others, the gospel message is "to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness".}
RELATED ARTICLE - The Call Creates What It Commands

Matthew 11:27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

John 10:26-27 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. (27) "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

John 12:37-40 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, (38) that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?" (39) Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: (40) "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."

John 14:21-24 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." (22) Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" (23) Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. (24) "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

John 17:9-10 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. (10) "And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.

John 17:20-21 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; (21) "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Acts 10:40-41 "Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, (41) "not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, [even] to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.

Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 15:14 "Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Romans 11:13-14 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, (14) if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Titus 2:14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

Hebrews 7:25-26 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (26) For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;

2Pet 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Revelation 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood, Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

[b]I. Irresistable Grace
IRRESISTIBLE GRACE - {Regeneration & Effectual Calling}[/b]

Psalms 65:4 Blessed [is the man] You choose, And cause to approach [You, That] he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. (27) "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Genesis 50:20 "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.
{This verse shows that God's plan & purpose will NOT be changed, despite man's attempt at doing so. Though man tries to change things for his own sinful purposes, God's will & purpose will ALWAYS prevail.}

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: (13) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 5:21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to [them], even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

John 6:37-39 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. (38) "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. (39) "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Acts 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Acts 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Romans 1:6-7 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ; (7) To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
{Effectual Calling - the Holy Spirit convicts & convinces us. Yes, it's irresistible grace because it's so true, so logical and so convincing.}

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

1 Corinthians 1:23-24 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, (24) but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, (16) to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood,

Ephesians 2:1-5 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, (2) in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, (3) among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. (4) But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, (5) even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (9) not of works, lest anyone should boast. (10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
Philippians 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for [His] good pleasure.

2 Timothy 1:9-10 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, (10) but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

1Pet 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you].

Isaiah 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper [in the thing] for which I sent it.

John 17:2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

[b]P. Perseverance of the Saints
PERSEVERANCE(Preservation) OF THE SAINTS - {Sanctification}[/b]

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:35-37 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. (36) "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. (37) "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 10:27-29 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. (28) "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (29) "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, (39) nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God [are] irrevocable.

Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
{In this verse the indication of past salvation is present reality. The converse would clearly be, "For we have NOT become partakers of Christ if we FAIL TO hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.}

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God [which was] with me.

2Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Ephesians 2:4-6 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, (5) even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), (6) and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Ephesians 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete [it] until the day of Jesus Christ;

2 Timothy 1:12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Hebrews 13:20-21 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, (21) make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:4-5 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world our faith. (5) Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, (14) who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

John 17:2,12 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. (12) "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

1 Corinthians 1:6-8 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: (7) So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: (8) Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (24) Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

2 Thessalonians 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and guard [you] from the evil one.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, (5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. (12) He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Hebrews 6:17-19 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, (18) that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. (19) This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil,

Jeremiah 32:39-40 "then I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me forever, for the good of them and their children after them. (40) And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me".

Psalms 121:1-8 I will lift up my eyes to the hills From whence comes my help? (2) My help [comes] from the LORD, Who made heaven and earth. (3) He will not allow your foot to be moved; He who keeps you will not slumber. (4) Behold, He who keeps Israel Shall neither slumber nor sleep. (5) The LORD [is] your keeper; The LORD [is] your shade at your right hand. (6) The sun shall not strike you by day, Nor the moon by night. (7) The LORD shall preserve you from all evil; He shall preserve your soul. (8) The LORD shall preserve your going out and your coming in From this time forth, and even forevermore.

Isaiah 46:3-4 "Listen to Me, O house of Jacob, And all the remnant of the house of Israel, Who have been upheld [by Me] from birth, Who have been carried from the womb: (4) Even to [your] old age, I [am] He, And [even] to gray hairs I will carry [you]! I have made, and I will bear; Even I will carry, and will deliver [you].
Romans 9:6-8 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they [are] not all Israel who [are] of Israel, (7) nor [are they] all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." (8) That is, those who [are] the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Psalms 20:6 Now I know that the LORD saves His anointed; He will answer him from His holy heaven With the saving strength of His right hand.

Psalms 31:23 O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.

Psalms 37:28 For the LORD loves justice; he will not forsake his saints. They are preserved forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off.

Psalms 55:22 Cast your burden on the LORD, And He shall sustain you; He shall never permit the righteous to be moved.

(Proofs from http://scripturetruths5.tripod.com/fpc.html )

R
rookie

Brother Adam,

With all that you have posted, how do your thoughts or the thoughts that you have adopted align with this Scripture?
Job 36:4 For truly my words [are] not false; One who is perfect in knowledge [is] with you.

Job 36:5 "Behold, God [is] mighty, but despises [no one]; [He is] mighty in strength of understanding.

Job 36:6 He does not preserve the life of the wicked, But gives justice to the oppressed.

Job 36:7 He does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous; But [they are] on the throne with kings, For He has seated them forever, And they are exalted.

Job 36:8 And if [they are] bound in fetters, Held in the cords of affliction,

Job 36:9 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions-- That they have acted defiantly.

Job 36:10 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity.

Job 36:11 If they obey and serve [Him], They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures.

Job 36:12 But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge. [fn]

Job 36:13 "But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath; They do not cry for help when He binds them.

Job 36:14 They die in youth, And their life [ends] among the perverted persons. [fn]


Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

These two sections of Scripture say the same thing.
In Christ
Jeff

C
CherishHeart

Hi ! This is my very first time here & I really appreciated the scripture you shared. Please forgive me if I'm intruding or doing this wrong.

Y
yoadam


rookie wrote:
Brother Adam,

With all that you have posted, how do your thoughts or the thoughts that you have adopted align with this Scripture?
Job 36:4 For truly my words [are] not false; One who is perfect in knowledge [is] with you.

Job 36:5 "Behold, God [is] mighty, but despises [no one]; [He is] mighty in strength of understanding.

Job 36:6 He does not preserve the life of the wicked, But gives justice to the oppressed.

Job 36:7 He does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous; But [they are] on the throne with kings, For He has seated them forever, And they are exalted.

Job 36:8 And if [they are] bound in fetters, Held in the cords of affliction,

Job 36:9 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions-- That they have acted defiantly.

Job 36:10 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity.

Job 36:11 If they obey and serve [Him], They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures.

Job 36:12 But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge. [fn]

Job 36:13 "But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath; They do not cry for help when He binds them.

Job 36:14 They die in youth, And their life [ends] among the perverted persons. [fn]


Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

These two sections of Scripture say the same thing.
In Christ
Jeff

Hi Jeff.

What is it exactly you are asking? What problems do you see with reformed doctrine and these verses?

Also, there is no direct correlation between these passages in the book of Job and Romans 8. And, as I'm sure you know, Romans 8 must be interpreted especially within the context of chapters 6, 7, and 8, as one unit.

Romans 8:12-13 is one of my favorite Bible verses. But what is your question about it? :-( Might I suggest you listen to John Piper's sermons on these verses, as they are especially powerful...
[url=http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByScripture/10/83_How_to_Kill_Sin_Part_1/]How to Kill Sin - Part 1[/url]
[url=http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByScripture/10/84_How_to_Kill_Sin_Part_2/]How to Kill Sin - Part 2[/url]
[url=http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByScripture/10/84_How_to_Kill_Sin_Part_2/]How to Kill Sin - Part 3[/url]

Now in the Job passages you quoted above, it is actually not Job who is speaking. It is clearly [b]Elihu[/b] who is the speaker in chapters 32-37.

You must remember that the things which Job's friends say are not always true. In the end, it was Job who was blameless, not Job's friends. But it is interesting, Elihu is a bit of a mystery character in the book of Job-- for one, he is not mentioned in the beginning of the book along with Job's other friends. (He seems to just pop up and give a bunch of mega-speeches throughout chapters 32-37.) Also, In the end of the story, Elihu is not specifically rebuked by God, but Job's friends are. So, it is some-what sketchy to base a doctrine off of Elihu, (though definitely Elihu is much more solid than Job's other friends...), alone from obscure passages in one of the oldest books of the Bible, Job. (This was written at a time when God's people had a limited, but sufficient, revelation of the truth as compared to us who now have the entire canon of scripture!) All of this said, the book of Job is inspired, of course! (So please don't misunderstand what I am saying...)

Anyways, the following is the old puritan, Matthew Henry's exposition of the verses you cited:

[b]Chapter Overview[/b]
Elihu, having largely reproved Job for some of his unadvised speeches, which Job had nothing to say in the vindication of, here comes more generally to set him to rights in his notions of God's dealings with him. His other friends had stood to it that, because he was a wicked man, therefore his afflictions were so great and so long. But Elihu only maintained that the affliction was sent for his trial, and that therefore it was lengthened out because Job was not, as yet, thoroughly humbled under it, nor had duly accommodated himself to it. He urges many reasons, taken from the wisdom and righteousness of God, his care of his people, and especially his greatness and almighty power, with which, in this and the following chapter, he persuades him to submit to the hand of God. Here we have, I. His preface, ver. 2-4. II. The account he gives of the methods of God's providence towards the children of men, according as they conduct themselves, ver. 5-15. III. The fair warning and good counsel he gives to Job thereupon, ver. 16-21. IV. His demonstration of God's sovereignty and omnipotence, which he gives instances of in the operations of common providence, and which is a reason why we should all submit to him in his dealings with us, ver. 22-33. This he prosecutes and enlarges upon in the following chapter.

[b]Commentary[/b]

[b]5 Behold, God is mighty, and despiseth not any: he is mighty in strength and wisdom. 6 He preserveth not the life of the wicked: but giveth right to the poor. 7 He withdraweth not his eyes from the righteous: but with kings are they on the throne; yea, he doth establish them for ever, and they are exalted. 8 And if they be bound in fetters, and be holden in cords of affliction; 9 Then he showeth them their work, and their transgressions that they have exceeded. 10 He openeth also their ear to discipline, and commandeth that they return from iniquity. 11 If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures. 12 But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge. 13 But the hypocrites in heart heap up wrath: they cry not when he bindeth them. 14 They die in youth, and their life is among the unclean.[/b]

Elihu, being to speak on God's behalf, and particularly to ascribe righteousness to his Maker, here shows that the disposals of divine Providence are all, not only according to the eternal counsels of his will, but according to the eternal rules of equity. God acts as a righteous governor, for,

I. He does not think it below him to take notice of the meanest of his subjects, nor does poverty or obscurity set any at a distance from his favour. If men are mighty, they are apt to look with a haughty disdain upon those that are not of distinction and make no figure; but God is mighty, infinitely so, and yet he despises not any, v. 5. He humbles himself to take cognizance of the affairs of the meanest, to do them justice and to show them kindness. Job thought himself and his cause slighted because God did not immediately appear for him. "No," says Elihu, God despises not any, which is a good reason why we should honour all men. He is mighty in strength and wisdom, and yet does not look with contempt upon those that have but a little strength and wisdom, if they but mean honestly. Nay, for this reason he despises not any, because his wisdom and strength are incontestably infinite and therefore the condescensions of his grace can be no diminution to him. Those that are wise and good will not look upon any with scorn and disdain.

II. He gives no countenance to the greatest, if they be bad (v. 6): He preserves not the life of the wicked. Though their life may be prolonged, yet not under any special care of the divine Providence, but only its common protection. Job had said that the wicked live, become old, and are mighty in power, ch. xxi. 7. "No," says Elihu: "he seldom suffers wicked men to become old. He preserves not their life so long as they expected, nor with that comfort and satisfaction which are indeed our life; and their preservation is but a reservation for the day of wrath," Rom. ii. 5.

III. He is always ready to right those that are any way injured, and to plead their cause (v. 6): He gives right to the poor, avenges their quarrel upon their persecutors and forces them to make restitution of what they have robbed them of. If men will not right the injured poor, God will.

IV. He takes a particular care for the protection of his good subjects, v. 7. He not only looks on them, but he never looks off them: He withdraws not his eyes from the righteous. Though they may seem sometimes neglected and forgotten, and that befals them which looks like an oversight of Providence, yet tender careful eye of their heavenly Father never withdraws from them. If our eye be ever towards God in duty, his eye will be ever upon us in mercy, and, when we are at the lowest, will not overlook us.

1. Sometimes he prefers good people to places of trust and honour (v. 7): With kings are they on the throne, and every sheaf is made to bow to theirs. When righteous persons are advanced to places of honour and power, it is in mercy to them; for God's grace in them will both arm them against the temptations that attend preferment and enable them to improve the opportunity it gives them of doing good. It is also in mercy to those over whom they are set: When the righteous bear rule the city rejoices. If the righteous be advanced, they are established. Those that in honour keep a good conscience stand upon sure ground, and high places are not such slippery ground to them as they are to others. But, because it is not often that we see good men made great men in this world, this may be supposed to refer to the honour to which the righteous shall rise when their Redeemer shall stand at the latter day upon the earth; for then only they shall be exalted for ever, and established for ever; then shall they all shine forth as the sun, and be made kings and priests to our God.

2. If at any time he bring them into affliction, it is for the good of their souls, v. 8-10. Some good people are preferred to honour and power, but others are in trouble. Now observe, (1.) The distress supposed (v. 8): If they be bound in fetters, laid in prison as Joseph was, or holden in the cords of any other affliction, confined by pain and sickness, hampered by poverty, bound in their counsels, and, notwithstanding all their struggles, held long in this distress. This was Job's case; he was caught, and kept fast, in the cords of anguish (as some read it); but observe, (2.) The design God has, in bringing his people into such distresses as these; it is for the benefit of their souls, the consideration of which should reconcile us to affliction and make us think well of it. Three things God intends when he afflicts us:—[1.] To discover past sins to us, and to bring them to our remembrance. Then he shows them that amiss in them which before they did not see. He discovers to them the fact of sin: He shows them their work. Sin is our own work. If there be any good in us, it is God's work; and we are concerned to see what work we have made by sin. He discovers the fault of sin, shows them their transgressions of the law of God, and withal the sinfulness of sin, that they have exceeded, and have been beyond measure sinful. True penitents lay a load upon themselves, do not extenuate, but aggravate, their sins, and own that they have exceeded in them. Affliction sometimes answers to the sin; it serves, however, to awaken the conscience and puts men upon considering. [2.] To dispose our hearts to receive present instructions: Then he opens their ear to discipline, v. 10. Whom God chastens he teaches (Ps. xciv. 12), and the affliction makes people willing to learn, softens the wax, that it may receive the impression of the seal; yet it does not do this of itself, but the grace of God working with and by it; it is he that opens the ear, that opens the heart, who has the key of David. [3.] To deter and draw us off from iniquity for the future. This is the errand on which the affliction is sent; it is a command to return from iniquity, to have no more to do with sin, to turn from it with an aversion to it and a resolution never to return to it any more, Hos. xiv. 8.

3. If the affliction do its work, and accomplish that for which it is sent, he will comfort them again, according to the time that he has afflicted them (v. 11): If they obey and serve him,—if they comply with his design and serve his purpose in these dispensations,—if, when the affliction is removed, they continue in the same good mind that they were in when they were under the smart of it and perform the vows they made then,—if they live in obedience to God's commands, particularly those which relate to his service and worship, and in all instances make conscience of their duty to him,—then they shall spend their days in prosperity again and their years in true pleasures. Piety is the only sure way to prosperity and pleasure; this is a certain truth, and yet few will believe it. If we faithfully serve God, (1.) We have the promise of outward prosperity, the promise of the life that now is, and the comforts of it, as far as is for God's glory and our good; and who would desire them any further? (2.) We have the possession of inward pleasures, the comfort of communion with God and a good conscience, and that great peace which those have that love God's law. If we rejoice not in the Lord always, and in hope of eternal life, it is our own fault; and what better pleasures can we spend our years in?

4. If the affliction do not do its work, let them expect the furnace to be heated seven times hotter till they are consumed (v. 12): If they obey not, if they are not bettered by their afflictions, are not reclaimed and reformed, they shall perish by the sword of God's wrath. Those whom his rod does not cure his sword will kill; and the consuming fire will prevail if the refining fire do not; for when God judges he will overcome. If Ahaz, in his distress, trespass yet more against the Lord, this is that king Ahaz that is marked for ruin, 2 Chron. xxviii. 22; Jer. vi. 29, 30. God would have instructed them by their afflictions, but they received not instruction, would not take the hints that were given them; and therefore they shall die without knowledge, ere they are aware, without any further previous notices given them; or they shall die because they were without knowledge notwithstanding the means of knowledge which they were blessed with. Those that die without knowledge die without grace and are undone for ever.

V. He brings ruin upon hypocrites, the secret enemies of his kingdom (such as Elihu described, v. 12), who, though they were numbered among the righteous whom Elihu had spoken of before, yet did not obey God, but, being children of disobedience and darkness, become children of wrath and perdition; these are the hypocrites in heart, who heap up wrath, v. 13. See the nature of hypocrisy: it lies in the heart, which is for the world and the flesh when the outside seems to be for God and religion. Many that are saints in show and saints in word are hypocrites in heart. That spring is corrupt, and there is an evil treasure there. See the mischievousness of hypocrisy: hypocrites heap up wrath. They are doing that every day which is provoking to God, and will be reckoned with for it all together in the great day. They treasure up wrath against the day of wrath, Rom. ii. 5. Their sins are laid up in store with God among his treasures, Deut. xxxii. 34. Compare Jam. v. 3. As what goes up a vapour comes down a shower, so what goes up sin, if not repented of, will come down wrath. They think they are heaping up wealth, heaping up merits, but, when the treasures are opened, it will prove they were heaping up wrath. Observe, 1. What they do to heap up wrath. What is it that is so provoking? It is this, They cry not when he binds them, that is, when they are in affliction, bound with the cords of trouble, their hearts are hardened, they are stubborn and unhumbled, and will not cry to God nor make their application to him. They are stupid and senseless as stocks and stones, despising the chastening of the Lord. 2. What are the effects of that wrath? They die in youth, and their life is among the unclean, v. 14. This is the portion of hypocrites, whom Christ denounced many woes against. If they continue impenitent, (1.) They shall die a sudden death, die in youth, when death is most a surprise, and death (that is, the consequence of it) is always such to hypocrites; as those that die in youth die when they hoped to live, so hypocrites, at death, go to hell, when they hoped to go to heaven. When a wicked man dies his expectations shall perish. (2.) They shall die the second death. Their life, after death (for so it comes in here), is among the unclean, among the fornicators (so some), among the worst and vilest of sinners, notwithstanding their specious and plausible profession. It is among the Sodomites (so the margin), those filthy wretches, who going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire, Jude 7. The souls of the wicked live after death, but they live among the unclean, the unclean spirits, the devil and his angels, forever separated from the new Jerusalem, into which no unclean thing shall enter.

Thanks & ... No problem?
Adam :-)

S
sermonindex

Good morning Jimotheus,

I would say ,

NOT to look to Calvin s teaching at the first.


As the one here has said,(and I commend his answer on this subject)To be filled w/the Holy One and be lead by the Spirit.
He will lead you into all Truth.((John)

The Faith that was once delivered to the saints..
..would have to be `the one that Jesus taught the desiples ,and the faith that they taught
in the Bible.The Lord taught them
`Disiple:learner
He then sent them out to make other Disiples.
tat we might be taught by their origanal teaching.That we might be `learners..Disciples.

I would really like to say more ....maybe another time?
God blessyou as you look to Him,
Lovingly,
Elizabeth


Y
yoadam


ebeth wrote:
Good morning Jimotheus,

I would say ,

NOT to look to Calvin s teaching at the first.


As the one here has said,(and I commend his answer on this subject)To be filled w/the Holy One and be lead by the Spirit.
He will lead you into all Truth.((John)

The Faith that was once delivered to the saints..
..would have to be `the one that Jesus taught the desiples ,and the faith that they taught
in the Bible.The Lord taught them
`Disiple:learner
He then sent them out to make other Disiples.
tat we might be taught by their origanal teaching.That we might be `learners..Disciples.

I would really like to say more ....maybe another time?
God blessyou as you look to Him,
Lovingly,
Elizabeth


Hi. Firstly, Jimotheus has obviously already looked in to these things and made up his mind about them.

Secondly, Calvin was a gift from God to the church. Just like your pastor in Mississippi is to you. He's not inspired, of course; but neither is your pastor. But why limit yourself to only hearing from and reading men who are currently living? Is that not completely arrogant? Consider G.K. Chesterson's words, "Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to that arrogant oligarchy who merely happen to be walking around." Calvin held fast to the gospel when few did back in the 15th century. He even wrote a book (The Institutes of Christian Religion) explaining the basics of the protestant faith, so that he would, Lord willing, see a stop put to his fellow protestant frenchmen being burned alive at the stake. Calvin along with Luther was one among the few at the time who would make famous the doctrine of "sola scriptura" (Scripture Alone) which you are now basically taking for granted. Calvin is a good guy. No need to fear him. Oh and it was his 500th birthday yesterday. I guess anyone who the church is still talking about 500 years later is worth looking into... :-)

[b]"Those who think they have no traditions are the most enslaved by them."[/b]

Find out what your tradition is. Everybody approaches the truth from a certain point in time, with a certain background and understanding already. Now figure out what "interpretive glasses" you are wearing and judge them according to Scripture to see if they are not distorting the truth.

We should always be reforming!

Adam

R
rbanks

“Article 9: Election Not Based on Foreseen Faith

This same election took place, not on the basis of foreseen faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, or of any other good quality and disposition, as though it were based on a prerequisite cause or condition in the person to be chosen, but rather for the purpose of faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, and so on. Accordingly, election is the source of each of the benefits of salvation. Faith, holiness, and the other saving gifts, and at last eternal life itself, flow forth from election as its fruits and effects. As the apostle says, He chose us (not because we were, but) so that we should be holy and blameless before him in love (Eph. 1:4).”
Quote-

It is amazing to me how people who have been enlightened so much in the truth of God are willing to so easily go beyond the scriptures. Right here is where he starts to greatly err. It is not the truth from the word of God in Calvinism that bothers me at all; it is the interpretation beyond the scriptures. The apostle Paul didn’t even take that liberty upon himself and Mr. John Calvin can’t even hold a candlestick next to the apostle Paul. Even the apostle Peter said that many wrestle to their own destruction over the writings of the apostle Paul because He had gained so much wisdom from God and it was very hard for many to understand. John Calvin never walked in the power of the Holy Spirit like the apostles, but many are willing to lay hold of his teachings that go beyond scripture as thought they are the very words of God. I fear God to much than to go beyond what the scriptures reveal and speak for God himself concerning predestination.

Blessings to you all!

M
Miccah


yoadam wrote:



Calvin is a good guy. No need to fear him. Oh and it was his 500th birthday yesterday. I guess anyone who the church is still talking about 500 years later is worth looking into... :-)


How about focusing that on Jesus, instead of a mortal man.

Regardless of your stance on Cal/Arm, we should never look to man for our beliefs, unless He is Jesus.

H
HomeFree89

Brother yoadam,

Anymore, I try and stay out of theses types of threads because they normally cause more division then unity. However, I wanted to point somethings out.

Arminianism is heresy.

That is a matter of opinion. Many godly people have not held to the "doctrines of grace" and still lead lives pleasing to the Lord.

Call it "The Doctrines of Grace", "Calvinism", "Augustinianism"-- whatever, the truth is, it is Pauline.

Again, this is purely a matter of opinion. I know many people (myself included) that have only used the Bible to determine what's true on this issue and have come out either totally Arminian or leaning that way. When I began studying this topic, I was going to a baptist church where many people leaned toward Calvinism.

Also, I think you need to go back in history farther than the Canon of Dort, etc. Look and see what the early church fathers believed (people like Justin Martyr or Clement of Alexandria). I think you'll find that many did not believe in what is commonly termed as Calvinism.

That being said, I believe this debate between Calvinism and Arminianism has to stand on Scripture. It really doesn't matter what uninspired people condemn as heresy (especially when they're already biased towards the reformed and against anyone or anything else that isn't).

I believe we can enjoy learning things from both Arminians and Calvinists. I read and listen to Calvinists (Piper, MacArthur, Pink, etc.) and I also read things written by Arminians (Tozer, Ravenhill, Wesley, etc.). Why do people feel the need to totally condemn one side of Christianity or ther other? I know people who believe we maybe shouldn't associate with Calvinists because they serve a different God. I don't hold to that, I have friends that are "reformed" and friends who aren't. Friends who are baptist and anabaptist, etc, etc.

In saying all that, I believe we need to have balance and love in all things. Even when we disagree on doctrine. :-)

N
narrowpath

"Those who think they have no traditions are the most enslaved by them."

Find out what your tradition is. Everybody approaches the truth from a certain point in time, with a certain background and understanding already. Now figure out what "interpretive glasses" you are wearing and judge them according to Scripture to see if they are not distorting the truth.

We should always be reforming

Brother, May I ask you the same question??

I love to listen to Spurgeon, John Piper and Paul Washer. Their aim is to magnify Christ and win souls. Their Calvinism is of secondary importance to them. I would call then "Messianic Calvinists" :-P
You do not need Calvin to come to Salvation. Calvinism is a man made system with many flaws. There are many truths Calvinism fails to explain.
It is also unfair to brand a non Calvinist Arminianist by default. Some Calvinists go so far as to question a dear fellow brother's salvation because he does not subscribe to their theory.
That is very dangerous because they are confusing some of these least of our brothers.
I would never question the salvation of a Calvinist brother whose life is full of the fruit of the Spirit. I glady work hand in hand with them and I know they receive me, too. I do believe that I stand in this together with Greg Gordon.

We do not need Calvin or Arminius or anyone else but the Holy Spirit as a teacher. Only He has full view of all truth. I do not need Calvin to teach me what the Holy Spirit who dwells in me reveals to me not just a propositional doctrine but also as personal applicable truth beyond doubt.

The dilemma of a scribe is that you can know all the doctrine and yet completely miss the reality of truth coming alive in a man. Even Satan knows all the doctrines of the bible better than any Christian yet he only destroys, kills and lies.

You have unloaded all your Calvinistic ammunition here and you were not the first one to do so. May be you even win some "converts" to Calvinism here.

Is the proselyting of brothers to Calvinism the calling Christ gave you?

Should you not rather devote your obvious passion to the winning of souls?

Would you be unsettled if you have to share eternity with some who do not share your view of salvation?


narrowpath

Y
yoadam


rbanks wrote:
“Article 9: Election Not Based on Foreseen Faith

This same election took place, not on the basis of foreseen faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, or of any other good quality and disposition, as though it were based on a prerequisite cause or condition in the person to be chosen, but rather for the purpose of faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, and so on. Accordingly, election is the source of each of the benefits of salvation. Faith, holiness, and the other saving gifts, and at last eternal life itself, flow forth from election as its fruits and effects. As the apostle says, He chose us (not because we were, but) so that we should be holy and blameless before him in love (Eph. 1:4).”
Quote-

It is amazing to me how people who have been enlightened so much in the truth of God are willing to so easily go beyond the scriptures. Right here is where he starts to greatly err. It is not the truth from the word of God in Calvinism that bothers me at all; it is the interpretation beyond the scriptures. The apostle Paul didn’t even take that liberty upon himself and Mr. John Calvin can’t even hold a candlestick next to the apostle Paul. Even the apostle Peter said that many wrestle to their own destruction over the writings of the apostle Paul because He had gained so much wisdom from God and it was very hard for many to understand. John Calvin never walked in the power of the Holy Spirit like the apostles, but many are willing to lay hold of his teachings that go beyond scripture as thought they are the very words of God. I fear God to much than to go beyond what the scriptures reveal and speak for God himself concerning predestination.

Blessings to you all!


I reject this. Your assertion that we are "going beyond the scriptures" is utter nonsense. You are absolutely wrong in your accusations of going beyond and "wrest"ing (twisting) scripture. Everything we hold to regarding predestination is clearly set forth throughout the whole of scripture-- but especially Romans 9 and Ephesians 1. (Unless you are one of those people who also thinks we should not even believe the doctrine of the holy Trinity? Because the word Trinity is not in the Bible you know...)

I am amazed at your level of ignorance towards the man John Calvin. On what basis can you say he "never walked in the power of the Holy Spirit like the apostles." I would be hard pressed to find anybody else in the history of the church, living today or dead, other than perhaps, Whitefield, who would be a better candidate for a modern day Apostle. Never the less, it is entirely your presupposition that we even still have an apostolic office today.

Finally, your initial assertion that the reformed teaching of election goes beyond scripture was judged by the assembly back at the synod of dordt. In the canons of dordt article 18.1,

Rejection of the Errors
by Which the Dutch Churches Have for Some Time Been Disturbed
Having set forth the orthodox teaching concerning election and reprobation, the Synod rejects the errors of those

I

Who teach that the will of God to save those who would believe and persevere in faith and in the obedience of faith is the whole and entire decision of election to salvation, and that nothing else concerning this decision has been revealed in God's Word.

For they deceive the simple and plainly contradict Holy Scripture in its testimony that God does not only wish to save those who would believe, but that he has also from eternity chosen certain particular people to whom, rather than to others, he would within time grant faith in Christ and perseverance. As Scripture says, I have revealed your name to those whom you gave me (John 17:6). Likewise, All who were appointed for eternal life believed (Acts 13:48), and He chose us before the foundation of the world so that we should be holy... (Eph. 1:4).

Y
yoadam


narrowpath wrote:
"Those who think they have no traditions are the most enslaved by them."

Find out what your tradition is. Everybody approaches the truth from a certain point in time, with a certain background and understanding already. Now figure out what "interpretive glasses" you are wearing and judge them according to Scripture to see if they are not distorting the truth.

We should always be reforming

Brother, May I ask you the same question??

I love to listen to Spurgeon, John Piper and Paul Washer. Their aim is to magnify Christ and win souls. Their Calvinism is of secondary importance to them. I would call then "Messianic Calvinists" :-P
You do not need Calvin to come to Salvation. Calvinism is a man made system with many flaws. There are many truths Calvinism fails to explain.
It is also unfair to brand a non Calvinist Arminianist by default. Some Calvinists go so far as to question a dear fellow brother's salvation because he does not subscribe to their theory.
That is very dangerous because they are confusing some of these least of our brothers.
I would never question the salvation of a Calvinist brother whose life is full of the fruit of the Spirit. I glady work hand in hand with them and I know they receive me, too. I do believe that I stand in this together with Greg Gordon.

We do not need Calvin or Arminius or anyone else but the Holy Spirit as a teacher. Only He has full view of all truth. I do not need Calvin to teach me what the Holy Spirit who dwells in me reveals to me not just a propositional doctrine but also as personal applicable truth beyond doubt.

The dilemma of a scribe is that you can know all the doctrine and yet completely miss the reality of truth coming alive in a man. Even Satan knows all the doctrines of the bible better than any Christian yet he only destroys, kills and lies.

You have unloaded all your Calvinistic ammunition here and you were not the first one to do so. May be you even win some "converts" to Calvinism here.

Is the proselyting of brothers to Calvinism the calling Christ gave you?

Should you not rather devote your obvious passion to the winning of souls?

Would you be unsettled if you have to share eternity with some who do not share your view of salvation?


narrowpath


Hi.

First. I am sure Spurgeon, Piper, & Washer's Calvinism is NOT secondary to them. As someone has already pointed out in this thread, Washer preaches Calvinism. He tries not to "get into it", but it is unavoidable because what he preaches is clearly "calvinistic."

Second. Calvinism was not invented by Calvin, as I have said, it is Pauline. I'm sure Calvin would have a cow if found out that the gospel was attached to his name in theological circles! Now, I assert that you DO need to calvinism to be saved, if by that you mean the gospel. That is the issue: The Gospel.

Third. I agree we do not need Calvin or Arminius or any teacher than the Holy Spirit. Once again, we all come to scripture with our own "interpretive glasses". I submit to you the reformed ("calvinistic") glasses are the correct ones harmonious with the scriptures as a whole.

Somebody explained why this controversy is very important on the first page of this thread and I would like to echo it with another hearty "AMEN" here:

Finally, where you land on this issue really does affect the way you view the world, evil, your confidence in your eternal future, your preaching and teaching, the spiritual health of the visible church, even your view of God himself. That is why this issue has been debated for centuries and why it is an important debate as it can directly affect the believer's state of mind and ministry.

Lastly, you said,

Is the proselyting of brothers to Calvinism the calling Christ gave you?

Should you not rather devote your obvious passion to the winning of souls?

Would you be unsettled if you have to share eternity with some who do not share your view of salvation?


I just want you to know that you do not even know me. You don't know my story. The Lord assured me of my salvation in the august of 2006 when I had the hell scared out of me by the finneyites. It happened after many sleepless nights... I even tried repenting in sackclotch and ashes, but to no avail, it was my own flesh trying to get right with God via works! Finally, on one lonely night, I simply opened up the Bible and started reading Ephesians. As read Ephesians 1 it was as if "The lights came on" and I [i]KNEW[/i] that I was adopted as His son, presdestinated before the foundation of the world! I fell to my knees and began to thank the Lord over and over and my heart was filled with such great joy! Ever since that moment in 2006 I have been running hard for my Lord-- not sinlessly-- but I have by His grace persevered. All of this led up my embracing the doctrines of grace as I read and understood more of scripture and especially as I faced Romans chapter 9 head-on. During these years I lived a year in Hawaii doing inner-city missions, two summers in the Marshall Islands serving the poor, and now I preach the gospel to unchurched kids at an afterschool program 5 days a week. Sermonindex is a spare-time activity. Pray for me brother. In the next few years, Lord willing, I hope to attend seminary online, and simultaneously attend university of Oregon to major in Linguistics and become a Bible translator.

In answer to your last question, see how George Whitefield closed his letter to John Wesley, "No, Dear Sir, You Mistake."

"Dear Sir, these things ought not so to be. God knows my heart, as I told you before, so I declare again, nothing but a single regard to the honour of Christ has forced this letter from me. I love and honour you for his sake; and when I come to judgment, will thank you before men and angels, for what you have, under God, done for my soul.
There, I am persuaded, I shall see dear Mr. Wesley convinced of election and everlasting love. And it often fills me with pleasure to think how I shall behold you casting your crown down at the feet of the Lamb, and as it were filled with a holy blushing for opposing the divine sovereignty in the manner you have done.
But I hope the Lord will show you this before you go hence. O how do I long for that day! If the Lord should be pleased to make use of this letter for that purpose, it would abundantly rejoice the heart of, dear and honoured Sir,
Yours affectionate, though unworthy brother and servant in Christ,

GEORGE WHITEFIELD."

Grace & Peace to you from God!

Adam Schaefers

Y
yoadam


Miccah wrote:

yoadam wrote:



Calvin is a good guy. No need to fear him. Oh and it was his 500th birthday yesterday. I guess anyone who the church is still talking about 500 years later is worth looking into... :-)


How about focusing that on Jesus, instead of a mortal man.

Regardless of your stance on Cal/Arm, we should never look to man for our beliefs, unless He is Jesus.


Amen. Good thing Calvin taught what Jesus and Paul taught! :-)

First thread starts out slamming Calvin and reformed orthodoxy. Then when someone like myself defends that Calvin simply preached the gospel according to the scriptures, people tell me to take my eyes off Calvin???

This kind of reasoning is absurd! :-o

R
rbanks


yoadam wrote:

...but that he has also from eternity chosen certain particular people to whom, rather than to others, he would within time grant faith in Christ and perseverance.

The apostle Paul never said such as this and neither will you find it in all of the Holy Scriptures. It is only found in the writings of Calvinism and I will not trust in what Calvinism believes to save me, but only in the precious Lord Jesus Christ-in the blood of his everlasting covenant.

Blessings to you!

Y
yoadam


rbanks wrote:

yoadam wrote:

...but that he has also from eternity chosen certain particular people to whom, rather than to others, he would within time grant faith in Christ and perseverance.

The apostle Paul never said such as this and neither will you find it in all of the Holy Scriptures. It is only found in the writings of Calvinism and I will not trust in what Calvinism believes to save me, but only in the precious Lord Jesus Christ-in the blood of his everlasting covenant.

Blessings to you!


The Apostle Paul did teach these doctrines!

[i]Chosen From Eternity Past[/i]
Ephesians 1:1-14,
[b]1\tPaul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2\tGrace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3\tBlessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
[u]4\tAccording as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5\tHaving predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6\tTo the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
[/u]
7\tIn whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8\tWherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9\tHaving made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10\tThat in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
[u]11\tIn whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:[/u]
12\tThat we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13\tIn whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14\tWhich is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
[/b]

[i]Chosen Particular People Rather Than Others[/i]
Romans 9:9-24,

[b]9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
[u]11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)[/u]
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
[u]13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.[/u]
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
[u] 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.[/u]

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
[u]18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.[/u]
[u]19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,[/u]

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? [/b]

[i]Faith & Perseverance are both gifts from God[/i]
Ephesians 2:1-10,
[b]1\tAnd you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2\tWherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3\tAmong whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4\tBut God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5\tEven when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6\tAnd hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7\tThat in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8\t[u]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9\tNot of works, lest any man should boast.[/u]

10\tFor we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which [u]God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.[/u]
[/b]

[i]God Grants Repentance[/i]
2 Timothy 2:24-26 (NASB),
[b]The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
25\twith gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, [u]if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,[/u]
26\tand they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.[/b]

Acts 11:18,
[b][u]18\tWhen they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.[/u][/b]

Acts 13:48,
[b][u]48\tAnd when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.[/u][/b]

[size=large][b]PAULINE.[/b][/size]

Lastly, as an added bonus, please go to the following link to watch Paul Washer explain election:[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRGMp0md5CE](If you have no predestination, then you have no salvation.) [/url]

S
sermonindex

this thread is a stench and a reproach to Messiah.

men of flesh arguing over Scripture with such vehemence, and it seems to me, some actually "deify" other men of flesh, to wit, Calvin, Finney, Arminia (sp)and even Paul,(and even paul Washer) who warned against such with the, "I follow Appolos, I follow Paul' warning.

and this thread is just the tip of the iceberg, so many threads arguing this or that, with men coming in screaming about how the 'church is dead', or the 'church is lukewarm', or 'watch out for the emerging church, they're just a pack of wolves', etc, etc etc ad nauseum.

This Most Holy Faith is so simple, It's about Jesus and Him Crucified. period, and He gave us two Royal Commandments, and a Life to emulate, and he gave us the Comforter available thru the Baptism of the Holy Ghost so that we may obtain power from on High, so that we all may be the One Body, the Church, to fulfill God's plan, in unity, grace and love....and as evidenced by this thread, and many others, and the sad sordid history of "Christendom", what have we done in Jesus Name?

answer me this question, God forbid, should someone who doesnt know the Riches of God, the shalom wholeness of Messiah, read this thread, and marvel and be envious of so great a salvation, and exclaim, "Look how they love each other"?
Could they say that, after such a poor witness?

You know the answer to that, this all is the laughing stock of devils, its a farce, its playing at "religion", who can proclaim their holiness with the loudest voice, who can denounce their brother with the most cutting words, butressed by Scripture taken out of context, who can make other followers seem like less thans because they "just dont get it"...or as you say in your previous thread:

"utter nonsense" "You are absolutely wrong" "I am amazed at your level of ignorance "

You know when you first came on here, and told about your childrens ministry, how did I respond to you?...with joy filled encouragement!

Isnt that the way we should be with one another? ...and please dont burden me with the "iron sharpening iron" basis for these hellish threads, thats a lie, all these threads do is serve the devils purpose to try and divide the Body, thats all.

It is my firm conviction that to do what we must do to be who we must be IN MESSIAH JESUS, as His Body is to give much focus , study prayer, tears to His High Priestly Prayer in John 17, and to always remember that wonderful exhortation in Hebrews 3:1.

Forget all that backslidden religiostic palaber and posturing. Wouldnt you rather be that tax collector, who couldnt even look heavenward, as he asked for mercy, instead of that pridesoaked pharisee who pounded his breast in religious self-righteousness?

I dont mean to seem harsh, but this thread is just terrible.

neil

Y
yoadam

Neil, I appreciate what you have said.

I want to say right now: I am sorry to anyone if I, being overzealous for the truth, have been hurtful. Reformed Confessional Protestants like myself who claim to hold on to the "doctrines of grace" ought to be among the most gracious believers in all of Christendom! Please forgive me.

I hope you can understand where I am coming from. These issues are simply too important to be cast aside in the name of unity. These are the issues on which the reformation hinged upon. Arminianism is backdoor to popery. Many on this forum are siding with the roman catholics on the issues of predestination and "free-will".

As someone previously has said, these issues are crucial. Once more and I quote,

Finally, where you land on this issue really does affect the way you view the world, evil, your confidence in your eternal future, your preaching and teaching, the spiritual health of the visible church, even your view of God himself. That is why this issue has been debated for centuries and why it is an important debate as it can directly affect the believer's state of mind and ministry.

The gospel is at stake.

Grace & Peace.
Adam

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone.

rbanks, how are you?


"...so easily go beyond the scriptures."


I think that this is an important observation.


The scriptures come to us in the language and phrasing and context that they do, not in the interpretations that are made about them. Every word is important, and the Bible says was breathed by God.

It is not fair or honest to present them [b]both[/b] as though they are interchangeable or one is synonomous for the other.

The Bible says that the words of God are pure and purified 7 times(Ps 12:6). [b]They are choosen words[/b].


Y
yoadam


ChrisJD wrote:
Hi everyone.

rbanks, how are you?


"...so easily go beyond the scriptures."


I think that this is an important observation.


The scriptures come to us in the language and phrasing and context that they do, not in the interpretations that are made about them. Every word is important, and the Bible says was breathed by God.

It is not fair or honest to present them [b]both[/b] as though they are interchangeable or one is synonomous for the other.

The Bible says that the words of God are pure and purified 7 times(Ps 12:6). [b]They are choosen words[/b].


Yes, Agreed. We do not want to be wiser than the scriptures.

R
rbanks


ChrisJD wrote:
Hi everyone.

rbanks, how are you?


"...so easily go beyond the scriptures."


I think that this is an important observation.


The scriptures come to us in the language and phrasing and context that they do, not in the interpretations that are made about them. Every word is important, and the Bible says was breathed by God.

It is not fair or honest to present them [b]both[/b] as though they are interchangeable or one is synonomous for the other.

The Bible says that the words of God are pure and purified 7 times(Ps 12:6). [b]They are choosen words[/b].



Thank you for those gracious words and very much agreed.

Also thanks for asking how I am doing for I am doing much better than I deserve.

Blessings to you!

C
ChrisJD

Hi again everyone,


rbanks,


"The apostle Paul didn’t even take that liberty upon himself..."


I think this is another important observation.


It is a tremendous thing to make wide and encompasing statements about the hidden counsel and will of God toward all men for all time.

Paul said that he did not go beyond the measure that was given to him(2Co 10:13-14), and that he had built, according to the grace that was given to him, as a wise master builder(1Co 3:10).


In the context of what you were responding to, I thought of what God had said to Phinehas after his actions had stayed the plague(Numbers 25:10-13), or what God had said to Abraham His friend before the destruction of Sodom(Genesis 18:17-19).


What a tremendous thing it is to speak for God.

C
ChrisJD

rbanks,


"I am doing much better than I deserve.'


You and me both!!


If I could respond to one more thing,

"...walked in the power of the Holy Spirit like the apostles"


I think this was worth considering also.


The Apostle Paul wrote of having fully preached the Gospel(Romans 15:18-19)and I consider the close of Mark's record of the Gospel also(Mark 16:20).

The Lord Jesus said that if He bore witness of Himself, his witness was not true(John 5:31). But also that the works that He did, they bore witness of Him(John 5:36). And that it was from God.


And Paul said that his preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power(1Co 2:5). And this he said, so that their faith would not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

In that same way I think of what the Lord Jesus said of His teaching, that it was not His own, but God's(John 7:16-18).

M
Miccah

yoadam wrote:



Amen. Good thing Calvin taught what Jesus and Paul taught! :-)


First thread starts out slamming Calvin and reformed orthodoxy. Then when someone like myself defends that Calvin simply preached the gospel according to the scriptures, people tell me to take my eyes off Calvin???

This kind of reasoning is absurd! :-o


Hey Yoadam,

I have no idea what thread you are talking about. Also, I have no reasoning behind my posts except to glorify the Lord and no other.

But I am pretty familiar with what Jesus taught, and so far, I have not seen Jesus preach on any sort or any kind of acronym. :-P

Blessings my friend. :-)

S
savannah

"If one is to live by God's words, then it is necessary to make certain that what we are living by truly is a word or words that have proceeded from God. This requires the testing of the translation one is using. And it requires as much study of the original languages from which a translation is made as can be done in the time God's providence has allotted. It is well to remember that all men are to be juged by the words which God has spoken through the prophets and apostles. It is not enough to simply have a general sense of scripture...

It is a principle alien to true christianity to rest on men's interpretation of the words of God. No man ever has authority in himself, it is the Spirt that witnesses to the truth. Nevertheless, one is a servant of God only if he or she can give a complete demonstration of what he says from the Scriptures. And to be sure that there is no change of the emphasis that God himself has given, this calls for a healthy search of the meaning of the original word written, in its complete context."
Jay P. Green, Sr.

Jimotheus says, "The atonement of our Lord Jesus Christ was not limited to a priviledged few..."

Thus saith the LORD,

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." John 10:11

"Even as the Father knows Me, I also know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep." John 10:15

"But you do not believe for you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. " John 10:26

"Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock among which the Holy Spirit has placed you to take the oversight for Him and act as shepherds to the Church of God, which He has bought with His own blood." Acts 20:28

"Husbands, love your wives, even as the Messiah loved his church, and delivered himself up for it" Eph. 5:25

"Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant" Heb. 13:20

"And she will bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins." Matthew 1:21

"For the Son of Man also did not come to be waited upon, but to wait on others, and to give His life as the redemption-price for a multitude of people." Mark 10:45

Jimotheus says, "According to Paul (and John), we are only elect IN THE SON not an election of particular men..."

Thus saith the LORD,

"And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first-born among many brethren. Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who will lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, or rather that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. But in all these things we are more than conquerors, through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor hight, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. " Rom. 8:28-39

Romans 11:5-8 "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) to this day."

Mark 4:10-12, "And when he was alone, they that were about him, with the twelve, asked of him the parable. And he said to them, To you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but to them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

John 6:39-40, "And this is the Father's will who hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

"All things are delivered to me by my Father; and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." Matthew 11:27

Luke 10:22, "All things are delivered to me by my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him."

Y
yoadam


Miccah wrote:
yoadam wrote:


Amen. Good thing Calvin taught what Jesus and Paul taught! :-)


First thread starts out slamming Calvin and reformed orthodoxy. Then when someone like myself defends that Calvin simply preached the gospel according to the scriptures, people tell me to take my eyes off Calvin???

This kind of reasoning is absurd! :-o


Hey Yoadam,

I have no idea what thread you are talking about. Also, I have no reasoning behind my posts except to glorify the Lord and no other.

But I am pretty familiar with what Jesus taught, and so far, I have not seen Jesus preach on any sort or any kind of acronym. :-P

Blessings my friend. :-)


Hi. I was speaking of the original post in this thread. Sorry about the typo which caused the confusion.

Also. Please review my exposition of Jesus' teaching from John chapter 6. You will find it on page 2. No one has addressed this yet. In John 6 Jesus addresses the issues we are speaking of with absolute clarity.

Of course Jesus did not use TULIP or any acronyms. TULIP is a simply an acronym which was formulated in response to Arminius' followers' "5 articles of Remonstrance". (The arminians disagreed with Reformed Orthodoxy in 5 points. The reformed churches then refuted.) Never the less. Each of the 5 points of the TULIP are clearly taught in scripture. Of course not systematically. The Bible is not a systematic theology book. The fact that TULIP is not found in scripture does not disprove the doctrines of grace. Trinity is not in scripture either. Yet we have deduced from Scripture that our God is clearly Triune.

Adam

C
ChrisJD

Hi again everyone,


About this that is from the qoute that savannah posted,

"...in its complete context"


I think this is good. And we can remember too, that the passages do not only have an immediate context of those things which are around them.

When the Lord Jesus speaks of being The Good Shepherd, we also think of how David described [b]God[/b] as his Shepherd(Ps 23:1). It was further on in this context(John 10) that the Jews accused the Lord Jesus of blasphemy.


And there is also the prophetic context of these passages, and how we may call to mind Ezekiel 34:23, or what the Lord Jesus said of what was soon to be in John 10:16.


And too there is the historical and social context, of these things being said among a people that had confidence about their standing before God because of their natural birth(Mat 3:9, John 8:33).

But this(those passages) is distinct then, from where Paul writes directly to Timothy, saying,


"For [i]there is[/i] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

- 1Timothy 2:5-6(KJV)


It was rightly said in the qoute that was mentioned before:


If one is to live by God's words, then it is necessary to make certain that what we are living by truly is a word or words that have proceeded from God.


And here in this passage, so far as I can tell, there is no qualification made such as "all [b]kinds[/b] of men" or any other.


But too we may consider how Paul testified of this, that is, what was his manner of speaking and declaring it, as he said he was ordained a preacher, and apostle, and teacher of the Gentiles.

When he was in Athens he told them that God now commanded all men everywhere to repent(Acts 17:30).


And his message there was of the same as I see it, as he was writting to Timothy:

that there was One God(Acts 17:24, 1Ti 2:5)

and one mediator between God and men(Acts 17:31, 1Ti 2:5).


This God Who he says made the World and all things in it, of Whom he says we are all His offspring(Acts 17:29), Who is called the God of all flesh(Jer 32:27), the Father of spirits(Heb 12:9), the God and Savior of all(1Ti 4:10).

Y
yoadam

[b]"...and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."[/b] ISAIAH 53:12

---------------------------
[i]FOR WHO DID CHRIST DIE?
John Owen[/i]

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

1. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
2. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
3. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"
---------------------------

Definite Redemption
Jesus Christ Died for God's Elect
From Concise Theology by J. I. Packer

[b]I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me--just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep.
JOHN 10:14-15[/b]

Definite redemption, sometimes called "particular redemption," "effective atonement," and "limited atonement," is an historic Reformed doctrine about the intention of the triune God in the death of Jesus Christ. Without doubting the infinite worth of Christ's sacrifice or the genuineness of God's "whoever will" invitation to all who hear the gospel (Rev. 22:17), the doctrine states that the death of Christ actually put away the sins of all God's elect and ensured that they would be brought to faith through regeneration and kept in faith for glory, and that this is what it was intended to achieve. From this definiteness and effectiveness follows its limitedness: Christ did not die in this efficacious sense for everyone. The proof of that, as Scripture and experience unite to teach us, is that not all are saved.

The only possible alternatives are (a) actual universalism, holding that Christ's death guaranteed salvation for every member of the human race, past, present, and future, or (b) hypothetical universalism, holding that Christ's death made salvation possible for everyone but actual only for those who add to it a response of faith and repentance that was not secured by it. The choices are, therefore, an atonement of unlimited efficacy but limited extent (Reformed particularism), one of unlimited extent but limited efficacy (hypothetical universalism), or one of unlimited efficacy and unlimited extent (actual universalism). Scripture must be the guide in choosing between these possibilities.

Scripture speaks of God as having chosen for salvation a great number of our fallen race and having sent Christ into the world to save them (JOHN 6:37-40, 10:27-29, 11:51-52; Rom. 8:28-39; Eph. 1:3-14; 1 Pet. 1:20). Christ is regularly said to have died for particular groups or persons, with the clear implication that his death secured their salvation (JOHN 10:15-18,27-29; Rom. 5:8-10, 8:32; Gal. 2:20, 3:13-14, 4:4-5; 1 John 4:9-10; Rev. 1:4-6, 5:9-10). Facing his passion, he prayed only for those the Father had given him, not for the "world" (i.e., the rest of mankind, JOHN 17:9,20). Is it conceivable that he would decline to pray for any whom he intended to die for? Definite redemption is the only one of the three views that harmonizes with this data.

There is no inconsistency or incoherence in the teaching of the New Testament about, on the one hand, the offer of Christ in the gospel, which Christians are told to make known everywhere, and, on the other hand, the fact that Christ achieved a totally efficacious redemption for God's elect on the cross. It is a certain truth that all who come to Christ in faith will find mercy (JOHN 6:35,47-51,54-57; Rom. 1:16, 10:8-13). The elect hear Christ's offer, and through hearing it are effectually called by the Holy Spirit. Both the invitation and the effectual calling flow from Christ's sin-bearing death. Those who reject the offer of Christ do so of their own free will (i.e., because they choose to, Matt. 22:1-7; JOHN 3:18), so that their final perishing is their own fault. Those who receive Christ learn to thank him for the cross as the centerpiece of God's plan of sovereign saving grace.

From: Concise Theology: A Guide To Historic Christian Beliefs
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/definiteredemption.html

[b]Further reading:[/b]
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/piper/piper_atonement.html
http://www.apuritansmind.com/TULIP/LimitedAtonement.htm

"We are often told that we limit the atonement of Christ, because we say that Christ has not made satisfaction for all men, or all men would be saved. Now, our reply to this is, that, on the other hand, our opponents limit it: we do not. The Arminians say, Christ died for all men. Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men. They say, "No, certainly not." We ask them the next question--Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They answer, "No." They are obliged to admit this, if they are consistent. They say, "No, Christ has died that any man may be saved if..." --and then follow certain conditions of salvation. Now, who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why, you. You say that Christ did not die so as to secure the salvation of anybody. We beg your pardon, when you say that we limits Christ's death; we say, "no my dear sir, it is you that do it." We say Christ so died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it."
Charles Spurgeon

Y
yoadam

[u][i][b][size=large][color=FF0033]Addressing the Original Poster's Scriptural Objections to the Doctrine of the Limited or Particular Atonement[/color][/size][/b][/i][/u]

#1. "Limited atonement"
(or as Paul Washer and others would put it, particular redeemption) Simply put, Jesus Christ did not die for the sins of the whole world, but only those whom God has particularly chosen from eternity past.

This is false. The atonement of our Lord Jesus Christ was not limited to a priviledged few as Calvinist believe. This is in direct contradiction to the categorical affirmations of [b]St.John 3:16; II Cor. 5:19; I Timothy 2:1-6; Titus 2:11-12; I John 2:1-2; 4:14-15.[/b] It would seem that the apostles knew nothing of some so-called limited atonement (particular redeemption) as taught by Calvin's disciples.

As I have held since the beginning, I have no need to reinvent the wheel, as the calvinist / arminian debate has been settled for centuries. Calvinism is the correct interpretation of the scriptures. I have no need to write anything "new." I simply need quote the truth which was written by men who could write it better than I can.

[b]First of all, please read the blog article, [url=http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2008/12/all-always-means-all-right.html]"All" always means ALL. Right?[/url] Follow that up with the blog article from Irish Calvinist, [url=http://www.irishcalvinist.com/?p=513]Did Jesus Die for everyone?[/url][/b] in which he addresses many of the so-called "trouble passages" for those who believe in the limited atonement.

Now, for the particular passages you have cited above, consider the puritan John Gill's expositions:

[u][i][b][size=large][color=FF0033]John 3:16[/color][/size][/b][/i][/u]

John 3:16 must be understood in the context of verses 17 and 18. Gill's commentary,

John 3:16

Ver. 16. For God so loved the world,.... The Persic version reads "men": but not every man in the world is here meant, or all the individuals of human nature; for all are not the objects of God's special love, which is here designed, as appears from the instance and evidence of it, the gift of his Son: nor is Christ God's gift to every one; for to whomsoever he gives his Son, he gives all things freely with him; which is not the case of every man. Nor is human nature here intended, in opposition to, and distinction from, the angelic nature; for though God has showed a regard to fallen men, and not to fallen angels, and has provided a Saviour for the one, and not for the other; and Christ has assumed the nature of men, and not angels; yet not for the sake of all men, but the spiritual seed of Abraham; and besides, it will not be easily proved, that human nature is ever called the world: nor is the whole body of the chosen ones, as consisting of Jews and Gentiles, here designed; for though these are called the world, Joh 6:33; and are the objects of God's special love, and to them Christ is given, and they are brought to believe in him, and shall never perish, but shall be saved with an everlasting salvation; yet rather the Gentiles particularly, and God's elect among them, are meant; who are often called "the world", and "the whole world", and "the nations of the world", as distinct from the Jews; see Ro 11:12, compared with Mt 6:32. The Jews had the same distinction we have now, the church and the world; the former they took to themselves, and the latter they gave to all the nations around: hence we often meet with this distinction, Israel, and the nations of the world; on those words,

""let them bring forth their witness", that they may be justified, Isa 43:9 (say {b} the doctors) these are Israel; "or let them hear and say it is truth", these are "the nations of the world".''

And again {c},

"the holy, blessed God said to Israel, when I judge Israel, I do not judge them as "the nations of the world":''

and so in a multitude of places: and it should be observed, that our Lord was now discoursing with a Jewish Rabbi, and that he is opposing a commonly received notion of theirs, that when the Messiah came, the Gentiles should have no benefit or advantage by him, only the Israelites; so far should they be from it, that, according to their sense, the most dreadful judgments, calamities, and curses, should befall them; yea, hell and eternal damnation.

"There is a place (they say {d},) the name of which is "Hadrach", Zec 9:1. This is the King Messiah, who is, Krw
dx, "sharp and tender"; sharp to "the nations", and tender to "Israel".''

And so of the "sun of righteousness", in Mal 4:2, they say {e},

"there is healing for the Israelites in it: but the idolatrous nations shall be burnt by it.''

And that {f}

"there is mercy for Israel, but judgment for the rest of the nations.''

And on those words in Isa 21:12, "the morning cometh", and also the night, they observe {g},

"the morning is for the righteous, and the night for the wicked; the morning is for Israel, and the night for "the nations of the world".''

And again {h},

"in the time to come, (the times of the Messiah,) the holy, blessed God will bring "darkness" upon "the nations", and will enlighten Israel, as it is said, Isa 60:2.''

Once more {i},

"in the time to come, the holy, blessed God will bring the nations of the world, and will cast them into the midst of hell under the Israelites, as it is said, Isa 43:3.''

To which may be added that denunciation of theirs {k}

"woe to the nations of the world, who perish, and they know not that they perish: in the time that the sanctuary was standing, the altar atoned for them; but now who shall atone for them?''

Now, in opposition to such a notion, our Lord addresses this Jew; and it is as if he had said, you Rabbins say, that when the Messiah comes, only the Israelites, the peculiar favourites of God, shall share in the blessings that come by, and with him; and that the Gentiles shall reap no advantage by him, being hated of God, and rejected of him: but I tell you, God has so loved the Gentiles, as well as the Jews,

that he gave his only begotten Son; to, and for them, as well as for the Jews; to be a covenant of the people, the Gentiles, the Saviour of them, and a sacrifice for them; a gift which is a sufficient evidence of his love to them; it being a large and comprehensive one, an irreversible and unspeakable one; no other than his own Son by nature, of the same essence, perfections, and glory with him; begotten by him in a way inconceivable and expressible by mortals; and his only begotten one; the object of his love and delight, and in whom he is ever well pleased; and yet, such is his love to the Gentiles, as well as Jews, that he has given him, in human nature, up, into the hands of men, and of justice, and to death itself:

that whosoever believeth in him, whether Jew or Gentile,

should not perish, but have everlasting life;
See Gill on "Joh 3:15".

{b} T. Bab. Avoda Zara, fol. 2. 1. {c} Ib. fol. 4. 1. Vid. T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 91. 2. & Bereshit Rabba, fol. 11. 3. {d} Shirhashirim Rabba, fol. 24. 1. Jarchi & Kimchi in Zech. ix. 1. {e} Zohar in Gen. fol. 112. 2. {f} Zohar in Exod. fol. 15. 1, 2. {g} T. Hieros. Taaniot, fol. 64. 1. {h} Shemot Rabba, sect. 14. fol. 99. 4. {i} Ib sect. 11. fol. 98. 3. {k} T. Bab. Succa, fol. 55. 2.


John 3:17

Ver. 17. For God sent not his Son into the world,.... God did send his Son into the world in the likeness of sinful flesh, being made of a woman, and made under the law; and which is an instance of his great love, and not of any disrespect to his Son, or of any inequality between them: but then this was not

to condemn the world; even any part of it, or any in it: not the Gentiles, as the Jews thought he would; for though God had suffered them to walk in their own ways, and had winked at, or overlooked the times of their ignorance, and had sent no prophet unto them, nor made any revelation of his will, or any discovery of his special grace unto them; yet he sent his Son now, not to destroy them for their idolatry, and wickedness, but to be the Saviour of them: nor the Jews; for as impenitent and unbelieving, and as wicked as they were, he did not accuse them to the Father, nor judge and condemn them; he was to come again in power and great glory, when he would take vengeance on them, and cause wrath to come upon them to the uttermost, for their disbelief and rejection of him; but this was not his business now: nor the wicked of the world in general; to judge, and condemn them, will be his work, when he comes a second time, in the day God has appointed to judge the world in righteousness.

But the end of his mission, and first coming is,

that the world through him might be saved; even the world of the elect in general, whom God determined to save, and has chosen, to obtain salvation by Jesus Christ, and has appointed Christ to be the salvation of; and who being sent, came into the world to seek and save them; and his chosen people among the Gentiles in particular: wherefore he is said to be God's salvation to the ends of the earth: and all the ends of the earth are called upon to look unto him, and be saved by him, Isa 49:6.


John 3:18

Ver. 18. He that believeth on him is not condemned,.... Whether Jew or Gentile, because a believer is openly in Christ; and there is no condemnation to those that are in him: and though the sentence of death passed upon all in Adam, and judgment came upon all men to condemnation in him; yet this sentence being executed on Christ, the surety of his people, who has been condemned to death, and has suffered it in their stead, his death is a security to them from all condemnation: and they are delivered by him from the curse and condemnation of the law: and having in conversion openly passed from death to life, they shall never enter into condemnation; and this is the happy case of every one that believes in Christ:

but he that believeth not is condemned already. The Persic version renders it, "from the beginning"; he remains under the sentence of condemnation passed in Adam upon him; the law accuses him, and pronounces him guilty before God; he is under the curse of it, and it is a ministration of condemnation and death to him; nor has he any thing to secure him from its charge, curse, and condemnation: this must be understood of one that is a final unbeliever, or that lives, and dies, in a state of impenitence, and unbelief:

because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God; whom God has sent to be the Saviour of lost sinners, and to deliver them from wrath to come; and there is no other name but his, whereby men can be saved; so that such that do not believe in him, must be damned.

[u][i][b][size=large][color=FF0033]II Cor. 5:19;[/color][/size][/b][/i][/u]
2 Corinthians 5:19

Ver. 19. To wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself,.... This expresses and explains the subject matter of the ministration of the Gospel, especially that part of it which concerns our reconciliation with God; and declares the scheme, the author, the subjects, the way, and means, and consequence of it. The phrase, "in Christ", may be either joined with the word "God", as in our version, "God was in Christ reconciling"; that is, he was in Christ drawing the scheme, fixing the method of reconciliation; his thoughts were employed about it, which were thoughts of peace; he called a council of peace, and entered into a covenant of peace with Christ, who was appointed and agreed to, to be the peacemaker. Or with the word "reconciling", thus, God "was reconciling in Christ"; that is, by Christ; and so it denotes, as before, actual reconciliation by Christ. God, in pursuance of his purposes, council, and covenant, sent his Son to make peace; and laid our sins, and the chastisement of our peace upon him; this is the punishment of sin, whereby satisfaction was made for it, and so peace with God: or with the word "world", thus, "God was reconciling the world in Christ"; by whom are meant, not all the individuals of mankind, for these are not all in Christ, nor all reconciled to God, multitudes dying in enmity to him, nor all interested in the blessing of non-imputation of sin; whereas each of these is said of the world: but the elect of God, who are chosen in Christ, whose peace Christ is, whose sins are not imputed to them, and against whom no charge of any avail can be laid; and particularly the people of God among the Gentiles are here designed, who are frequently called "the world" in Scripture; being the world which God loved, for whose sins Christ is the propitiation, and of the reconciling of which mention is particularly made, Joh 3:16. And this sense well agrees with the context, which signifies, that no man is regarded for his natural descent; it is no matter whether he is a Jew or a Gentile, provided he is but a new creature: for Gospel reconciliation, and the ministry of it, concern one as well as another. Moreover, this reconciliation must be considered, either as intentional, or actual, or as a publication of it in the ministry of the word; and taken either way it cannot be thought to extend to every individual person in the world: if it is to be understood intentionally, that God intended the reconciliation of the world to himself by Christ, and drew the scheme of it in him, his intentions cannot be frustrated; his counsel shall stand, and he will do all his pleasure; a scheme so wisely laid by him in his Son, cannot come to nothing, or only in part be executed; and yet this must be the case, if it was his design to reconcile every individual of mankind to himself, since a large number of them are not reconciled to him: and if the words are to be understood of an actual reconciliation of the world unto God by Christ, which sense agrees with the preceding verse, then it is out of all question, that the word "world" cannot be taken in so large a sense as to take in every man and woman in the world; since it is certain that there are many who are not reconciled to God, who die in their sins, whose peace is not made with him, nor are they reconciled to the way of salvation by Christ: and should it be admitted that the ministry of reconciliation is here designed, which is not an offer of reconciliation to the world, but a proclamation or declaration of peace and reconciliation made by the death of Christ; this is not sent to all men; multitudes were dead before the word of reconciliation was committed to the apostles; and since, there have been great numbers who have never so much as heard of it; and even in the times of the apostles it did not reach to everyone then living: besides, the text does not speak of what God did by the ministry of his apostles, but of what he himself had been doing in his Son, and which was antecedent, and gave rise unto and was the foundation of their ministry. There was a scheme of reconciliation drawn in the counsels of God before the world began, and an actual reconciliation by the death of Christ, which is published in the Gospel, which these words contain the sum and substance of: and this reconciliation, as before, is said to be "unto himself"; to his offended justice, and for the glory of his perfections, and the reconciling of them together in the affair of salvation:

not imputing their trespasses. This was what he resolved upon from all eternity, that inasmuch as Christ was become the surety and substitute of his people, he would not impute their sins to them, or look for satisfaction for them from them; but would reckon and place them to the account of their surety, and expect satisfaction from him; and accordingly he did, and accordingly he had it. And this will, not to impute sin to his people, or not to punish for it, which existed in God from everlasting, is no other than a justification of them; for to whom the Lord does not impute sin, he imputes righteousness, and such are properly justified.

And hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation; or put it in us, as a rich and valuable treasure; for such the doctrine of peace and reconciliation, by the blood of Christ, is; a sacred deposition, committed to the trust of faithful men, to be dispensed and disposed of for the use and purpose for which it is given them.


[u][i][b][size=large][color=FF0033]I Timothy 2:1-6;[/color][/size][/b][/i][/u]
1 Timothy 2:1

INTRODUCTION TO 1 TIMOTHY 2

In this chapter the apostle exhorts to prayer for all sorts of men, gives rules and directions about the dress of women, and their subjection to their husbands; and concludes with some comfort to them. The apostle exhorts to prayer in the first place, directs to the several parts and branches of prayer, and points to the persons to be prayed for, and what should be prayed for on their account, 1Ti 2:1. And next follow the reasons or arguments engaging to it, which are taken from the agreeableness of it in the sight of God; from the will of God, that all men should be saved: from there being but one God of all, and one Mediator between God and men; from Christ's giving himself a ransom price for all; and from the apostle being a preacher of the Gospel to the Gentiles, as well as Jews, 1Ti 2:3 wherefore he concludes and determines, according to his apostolical power and authority, that prayer be made in any place, provided there were faith and purity, and wrath and doubting were laid aside, 1Ti 2:8. Also, he exhorts women to appear, especially in public service, in a modest and becoming dress, and to adorn themselves with good works, 1Ti 2:9, and that they should be silent learners, and not teachers, and be in subjection to their husbands, 1Ti 2:11. The reasons of which subjection are taken from the formation of Adam before Eve, and from Eve's being deceived, and not Adam, 1Ti 2:13. However, for the comfort of women, it is observed, that though in sorrow they bring forth children, yet through the birth of a Son, the promised Messiah, they shall be saved, who continue in faith, charity, and holiness, with sobriety, 1Ti 2:15.

Ver. 1. I exhort therefore, that first of all,.... The two principal parts of public worship, being the ministry of the word and prayer; and the apostle having insisted on the former, in the preceding chapter, in which he orders Timothy to charge some that they teach no other doctrine than that of the Gospel, gives an account of his own ministry, and call to it, and of the glorious Gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to his trust, and stirs up Timothy to the faithful and diligent discharge of his work and office; now proceeds to the latter, to prayer, and exhorts unto it; either Timothy in particular, for so read the Syriac, Arabic, and Ethiopic versions, "I exhort thee", or "desire thee"; or else the church in general; unless it should rather be thought to be a charge to Timothy to exhort, and so Beza's Claromontane copy reads, "exhort thou therefore": but it is commonly considered as an exhortation of the apostle's, which he was very urgent in: it was what lay much upon his mind, and he was greatly desirous that it should be attended unto; for so the words may be read, "I exhort first of all", or before all things; of all things he had to say, this was the chief, or it was what he would have principally and chiefly done by others: for this does not so much regard the order of time, that prayer should be made early in the morning, in the first place, before anything else is done, and particularly before preaching, which seems to have been the custom of the primitive saints, Ac 4:31 but the pre-eminence and superior excellency of it; though the words may be rendered, "I exhort, that first, the supplications of all be made": and so may regard public prayer, the prayer of the whole church, in distinction from private prayer, or the prayer of a single person; which is expressed by different words,

supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks: the first of these, "supplications", signifies such petitions for things that are wanted by men, either by themselves or others; and that either for their bodies or souls, as food and raiment for the one, and discoveries of pardoning love, supplies of grace, spiritual peace, comfort, &c. for the other: and the second word, "prayers", signifies good wishes and desires, directed and expressed to God for things that are in themselves to be wished for, and desired of God, either for ourselves or others: and the next word, "intercessions", intends either complaints exhibited in prayer against others that have done injuries; or prayers put up for others, either for the averting of evil from them, or for the bestowing some good thing on them: and the last word, "thanksgivings", with which requests should always be made known to God, designs that branch of prayer in which thanks are given to God for mercies received, whether temporal or spiritual: and these are to

be made for all men; not only for all the saints, for all the churches of Christ, and, ministers of the Gospel; nor only for near relations and friends, according to the flesh; but for all the inhabitants of the country and city in which men dwell, the peace and prosperity of which are to be prayed for; yea, for enemies, and such as reproach, persecute, and despitefully use the saints, even for all sorts of men, Jews and Gentiles, rich and poor, high and low, bond and free, good men and bad men: for it cannot be understood of every individual that has been, is, or shall be in the world; millions of men are dead and gone, for whom prayer is not to be made; many in hell, to whom it would be of no service; and many in heaven, who stand in no need of it; nor is prayer to be made for such who have sinned the sin unto death, 1Jo 5:16 besides, giving of thanks, as well as prayers, are to be made for all men; but certainly the meaning is not, that thanks should be given for wicked men, for persecutors, and particularly for a persecuting Nero, or for heretics, and false teachers, such as Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom the apostle had delivered to Satan. But the words must be understood of men of all sorts, of every rank and quality, as the following verse shows.


1 Timothy 2:2

Ver. 2. For kings, and for all that are in authority,.... For supreme governors, as the emperor of Rome, and kings of particular nations; and for all sub-governors, or inferior magistrates, as procurators or governors of provinces, and proconsuls, and the like; all that were in high places, and acted under the authority of those that were supreme; these are particularly mentioned, the then governors, whether supreme or subordinate, who were avowed enemies, and violent persecutors of the saints; and it might be a scruple with some of them, whether they should pray for them, and therefore the apostle enjoins it; and this in opposition to the notions and practices of the Jews, who used to curse the Heathens, and pray for none but for themselves, and those of their own nation:

that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, in all godliness and honesty; which does not merely design the end of civil government by kings and magistrates, which is to preserve the peace and quiet of the commonwealth; to protect the persons and properties of men, that they may possess their own undisturbed; and to secure to them their civil and religious rights and liberties, that they may have the free use and exercise of religion, signified by "all godliness"; and to encourage morality and virtue, expressed by "honesty"; and so is an argument for prayer, taken from the advantage of civil government: nor does this clause only point out the duty of saints to live peaceably under the government they are, and not disturb it; to mind only their religious exercises among themselves, and behave honestly and morally among men, as they generally speaking are, the quiet in the land; but also expresses the thing to be prayed for; and the sense is, that since the hearts of kings are in the hands of the Lord, and he can turn them as he pleases, prayer should be made to him for them, that he would either convert them, and bring them to the knowledge of the truth, they now persecuted; or at least so dispose their hearts and minds, that they might stop the persecution, and so saints might live peaceably under them, enjoy their religious liberty, and be encouraged in their moral conversation. The Arabic version renders it, "that they may be preserved": that is, kings, and all in authority. It is a saying of R. Hananiah, or Ananias, the sagan of the priests {s},

"pray for the peace or safety of the kingdom (one of their commentators on it adds {t}, even of the nations of the world, which is remarkable, and agrees with the exhortation of the apostle); for if there was no fear of that, men would devour one another alive.''

{s} Pirke Abot, c. 3. sect. 2. {t} Bartenora in Pirke Abot, c. 3. sect. 2.


1 Timothy 2:3

Ver. 3. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour. Not only to live peaceably and quietly under the government men are, since that is the ordination of God, and to live soberly, righteously, and godly, which his grace teaches; but to pray for all sorts of men, and for those who are set in the highest place of government, even though enemies and persecutors: this is good in itself, and in the sight of an omniscient God, who sees not as man seeth; and it is acceptable unto him through Jesus Christ, by whom every sacrifice of prayer or praise is so; for by God our Saviour is meant God the Father, who is the Saviour of all men, in a way of providence, and the Saviour of all the elect in a way of special grace; See Gill on "1Ti 2:1".


1 Timothy 2:4

Ver. 4. Who will have all men to be saved,.... The salvation which God wills that all men should enjoy, is not a mere possibility of salvation, or a mere putting them into a salvable state; or an offer of salvation to them; or a proposal of sufficient means of it to all in his word; but a real, certain, and actual salvation, which he has determined they shall have; and is sure from his own appointment, from the provision of Christ as a Saviour for them, from the covenant of grace, in which everything is secured necessary for it, and from the mission of Christ to effect it, and from its being effected by him: wherefore the will of God, that all men should be saved, is not a conditional will, or what depends on the will of man, or on anything to be performed by him, for then none might be saved; and if any should, it would be of him that willeth, contrary to the express words of Scripture; but it is an absolute and unconditional will respecting their salvation, and which infallibly secures it: nor is it such a will as is distinguishable into antecedent and consequent; with the former of which it is said, God wills the salvation of all men, as they are his creatures, and the work of his hands; and with the latter he wills, or not wills it, according to their future conduct and behaviour; but the will of God concerning man's salvation is entirely one, invariable, unalterable, and unchangeable: nor is it merely his will of approbation or complacency, which expresses only what would be grateful and well pleasing, should it be, and which is not always fulfilled; but it is his ordaining, purposing, and determining will, which is never resisted, so as to be frustrated, but is always accomplished: the will of God, the sovereign and unfrustrable will of God, has the governing sway and influence in the salvation of men; it rises from it, and is according to it; and all who are saved God wills they should be saved; nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved: hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God; for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation, and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and it is his will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned; nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was his will they should; for who hath resisted his will? but there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned, and who will go into everlasting punishment: rather therefore all sorts of men, agreeably to the use of the phrase in 1Ti 2:1 are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men, because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved; and particularly the Gentiles may be designed, who are sometimes called the world, the whole world, and every creature; whom God would have saved, as well as the Jews, and therefore Heathens, and Heathen magistrates, were to be prayed for as well as Jewish ones. Moreover, the same persons God would have saved, he would have also

come to the knowledge of the truth: of Christ, who is the truth, and to faith in him, and of all the truth of the Gospel, as it is in Jesus; not merely to a notional knowledge of it, which persons may arrive unto, and not be saved, but a spiritual and experimental knowledge of it; and all that are saved are brought to such a knowledge, which is owing to the sovereign will and good pleasure of God, who hides the knowledge of Gospel truths from the wise and prudent, and reveals them to babes: whence it appears, that it is not his will with respect to every individual of mankind; that they should thus come to the knowledge of the truth; for was it his will they should, he would, no doubt, give to every man the means of it, which he has not, nor does he; he suffered all nations to walk in their own ways, and overlooked their times of ignorance, and sent no message nor messenger to inform them of his will; he gave his word to Jacob, and his statutes unto Israel only; and the Gospel is now sent into one part of the world, and not another; and where it does come, it is hid to the most; many are given up to strong delusions to believe a lie, and few are savingly and experimentally acquainted with the truths of the Gospel; though all that are saved are brought to the knowledge of such truths as are necessary to salvation; for they are chosen to it through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth.


1 Timothy 2:5

Ver. 5. For there is one God,.... This does not so much regard the unity of God, with respect to himself, or his divine essence, though that is a truth; but does not carry in it any apparent and forcible reason why all men should be prayed for, for which it is produced; but the unity of God with respect to men, as that there is but one God, who is the Creator of all men, and who, in a providential way, is the Saviour of all men; and in a way of special grace is the one God, the one covenant God of all sorts of men, of Jews and Gentiles; for he has taken of the latter into the covenant of his grace, as well as the former, and has loved them with a special and distinguishing love, has chosen them in Christ to salvation, and has sent his Son to redeem them; and of these he calls by his grace, regenerates, sanctifies, adopts, pardons, and justifies; see Ro 3:29 and therefore all sorts of men, Gentiles as well as Jews, are to be prayed for: another argument follows,

and one Mediator between God and men; a Mediator is of more than one, and has to do with two parties; and these at variance among themselves, between whom he stands as a middle person; his business is to bring them together, and make peace between them; and such an one is Christ: the two parties are God and his elect, who in their natural state are at a distance from God, and at enmity to him, and who have broken his law, and affronted his justice; Christ stands as a middle person, a daysman between them, and lays his hands upon them both; has to do with things pertaining to the glory of God, and makes reconciliation for the sins of the people; brings them that were afar off nigh to God, and makes peace for them by the blood of his cross, by fulfilling the law, and satisfying justice for them; in consequence of this he appears for them in the court of heaven, intercedes and pleads for them, is their advocate, and sees that all covenant blessings, of which he is the Mediator, are applied unto them, and preserves their persons, which are committed to his care and charge, safe to everlasting happiness; and this Mediator is

the man Christ Jesus; not that he is a mere man, for he is truly and properly God; or that he is a Mediator only according to the human nature: it was proper indeed that he should be man, that he might have something to offer, and that he might be capable of obeying, suffering, and dying, and so of making satisfaction in the nature that had sinned; but then, had he not been God, he could not have drawn nigh to God on the behalf of men, and undertook for them, and much less have performed; nor would his blood, righteousness, and sacrifice, have been available to cleanse from sin, to procure the pardon of it, justify from it, make atonement for it, or make peace with God: the reason why he is particularly mentioned as man, is, with a view to the argument in hand, praying for all men; since he who is the Mediator between God and man, has assumed a nature which is common to them all: and this Mediator is said to be one, not so much in opposition to other mediators, angels or saints departed, though it is a truth, and stands full against them, but with respect to men; there is but one Mediator between God and all sorts of men, through whom both Jews and Gentiles have an access to God, and peace with him; and therefore prayer through this Mediator should be made for all. So the Jews say of the Messiah {u}, that he is yeuma la, "a Mediator, God", a middle person between God and men. And they call him atyeumad adwme, "the Pillar of mediation" {w} or the middle Pillar; that is, the Mediator or Reconciler. And Philo {x} the Jew speaks of the word, as mesov, a "middle" person, and standing in the middle between the dead and the living, and between God and men. The Ethiopic version here renders it, "there is one elect of God"; which is one of the characters of the Messiah, Isa 42:1.

{u} R. Albo, Sepher Ikkarim, orat 2. c. 28. {w} Sepher Jetzira, p. 126. {x} Quis rerum divin. Hares, p. 508, 509, 510.


1 Timothy 2:6

Ver. 6. Who gave himself a ransom for all,.... What the Mediator gave as a ransom for men is "himself", his body and his soul, which were both made an offering for sin; and his life, which is the result of union between soul and body; his whole human nature as in union with his divine person, and so might be truly said to be himself: this he gave into the hands of men, of justice and of death; and that voluntarily, which shows his great love to his people; and also as a "ransom", or a ransom price for them,
antilutron, in their room and stead; to ransom them from the slavery of sin, and damnation by it, from the captivity of Satan, and the bondage of the law, and from the grave, death, hell, ruin, and destruction: and this ransom was given for "all"; not for every individual of mankind, for then all would be delivered, freed, and saved, whereas they are not; or else the ransom price is paid in vain, or God is unjust to receive a sufficient ransom price from Christ, and yet not free the captive, but punish the person for whom he has received satisfaction; neither of which can be said. But the meaning is, either that he gave himself a ransom for many, as in
Mt 20:28 for the Hebrew word lk, to which this answers, signifies sometimes many, a multitude, and sometimes only a part of a multitude, as Kimchi observes {y}: or rather it intends that Christ gave himself a ransom for all sorts of men, for men of every rank and quality, of every state and condition, of every age and sex, and for all sorts of sinners, and for some out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation, for both Jews and Gentiles; which latter may more especially be designed by all, as they are sometimes by the world, and the whole world; and so contains another argument why all sorts of men are to be prayed for, since the same ransom price is given for them; as that for the children of Israel was the same, for the rich as for the poor. We {z} read, that when the people of Israel comforted the high priest upon the death of his wife, or any relation, they used to say to him, Ktrpk wna, "we are thy atonement", expiation, or ransom; that is, as the commentators {a} explain it, by us thou shalt be atoned, for we will be in thy room and stead, with respect to all things that shall come upon thee; but here the High priest and Mediator is the atonement and ransom for the people:

to be testified in due time; or "a testimony in his own times"; that is, the sum and substance of what is before said is the Gospel, which is a testimony concerning the person, office, and grace of Christ, exhibited in the times of the Messiah, or the Gospel dispensation. Some copies read, "the mystery", which is another word often used for the Gospel; for that that is intended, appears by what follows.

{y} Sepher Shorash. rad. llk {z} Misna Sanhedrin, c. 2. sect. 1. {a} Jarchi & Bartenona in ib.


[u][i][b][size=large][color=FF0033]Titus 2:11-12;[/color][/size][/b][/i][/u]
Titus 2:11

Ver. 11. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation,.... By which is meant, not the free love and favour of God, which lies in his own heart; for though that is productive of salvation, and is the source and spring of it, and what brings it forth, and is far from encouraging licentiousness, but instructs in real piety, and constrains to obedience to the will of God; yet this does not appear, nor has it been, nor is it made manifest unto all men, but is peculiar to the Lord's own people; nor does it design the grace of God wrought in the hearts of believers; for though salvation is strictly connected with it, and it powerfully influences the lives and conversations of such, who are partakers of it; yet it has not appeared to, nor in all men; all men have not faith, nor hope, nor love, nor any other graces of the Spirit: but by the grace of God is intended the doctrine of grace, the Gospel of the grace of God; called so, because it is a declaration of the grace of God, and of salvation by it: and is the means, in the hand of the Spirit, of conveying grace to the heart, and implanting it in it; in which sense the phrase is used in Ac 20:24 and this is called the Gospel of salvation, the word of salvation, and salvation itself, and so may be said to bring it; it brings and publishes the good news of it; it shows unto men the way of salvation; it gives an account of the Saviour himself, that he is the great God, and so fit to be a Saviour; that he was appointed by God the Father to be his salvation; that he was sent, and came to work out salvation; and that he is become the author of it; and that he is the only Saviour, and an able, willing, and complete one: it gives an account of the salvation itself; that it is the salvation of the soul; that it is a great one, and includes both grace and glory; that it is everlasting, and all of free grace; and it points out the persons who are interested in it, and shall enjoy it, even all those that are chosen to it, and are redeemed, reconciled, and justified by the blood of Christ, and are brought to believe in him: and the Gospel not only brings the news of all this to the ear, in the external ministration of it; but it brings it to the heart, and is the power of God unto salvation, when it comes, not in word only, but in power, and in the Holy Ghost; or when it comes under the powerful influences and application of the Spirit of God. Some read this clause thus, "that bringeth salvation to all men"; to which agrees the Syriac version, which renders it, lk tyxm, "that quickeneth" or "saveth all"; and so the Arabic version: but then this cannot be understood of every individual person; for the Gospel has not brought salvation to everyone in any sense, not even in the external ministry of it; there have been multitudes who have never so much as heard the outward sound of salvation by Jesus Christ, and fewer still who have an application of it to their souls by the Spirit of God; to many to whom it has come, it has been an hidden Gospel, and the savour of death unto death: it follows indeed,

hath appeared to all men; which supposes it to have been hid, as it was, in the thoughts, purposes, and counsels of God; and in Jesus Christ, in whom all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hid; and in the covenant of grace, of which the Gospel is a transcript; and in the types and shadows of the ceremonial law: it was in some measure hid from angels, who desire to look into it, and from the Old Testament saints, to whom it was not known as it is now, by the apostles and prophets; and it was entirely hid from the Gentiles, the times of whose ignorance God overlooked: and it suggests, that it now appeared or shone out more clearly, and more largely. The Gospel had been like a candle lighted up in one part of the world, only in Judea, but now it shone out like the sun in its meridian glory, and appeared to all men; not to every individual person; it has neither shined upon, nor in everyone: it did not in the apostle's time, when it appeared the most illustrious, and shone out the most extensively, as well as the most clearly; nor has it in ages since, nor does it in ours; there are multitudes who know nothing of it, and are neither under its form nor power: but this is to be understood of all sorts of men, of every nation, of every age and sex, of every state and condition, high and low, rich and poor, bond and free, masters and servants; which sense well agrees with the context, Tit 2:2 and the words are a reason why the apostle would have duty urged on all sorts of persons, because the Gospel was now preached to all; and it had reached the hearts of all sorts of men; particularly the Gentiles may be intended from whom the Gospel was before hid, and who sat in darkness, and in the shadow of death; but now the great light shined upon them, and the Gospel was no more confined to one people only, but was preached to every creature under heaven, or to the whole creation; namely, to the Gentiles, pursuant to the commission in Mr 16:15.


Titus 2:12

Ver. 12. Teaching us,.... Not all men, to whom the Gospel appears in its outward ministry; for there are many who externally receive the Gospel, and profess it, who are never influentially taught by it to deny sin, or love holiness of life; they profess in words to know it, but in works deny it; they have a form of godliness, but deny its power: but the persons effectually taught by the Gospel are the "us", to whom it was come, not in word only, but in power; and so taught them, not only doctrinally, but with efficacy, both negative and positive holiness, as follows:

that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts; all impiety, or sin more immediately against God; or which is a violation of the first table of the law, as idolatry, will worship, superstition, perjury, and the like; and all sinful lusts, as the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life; which fill the world, and are reigning lusts in it, and which are common to the men of the world; and they are under the power of: to "deny" these, is to abhor and detest them, and to abstain from them, and have nothing to do with them: and this lesson of self-denial, or of the denial of sinful self, the Gospel teaches, and urges upon the most powerful motives and arguments; and when attended by the Spirit of God, does it effectually: so that

we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world; not, only "temperately", but wisely and prudently, as children of the light, on whom, and into whom the Gospel has shined; and "righteously" among men, giving to every man his due, and dealing with all according to the rules of equity and justice; as being made new men, created unto righteousness and true holiness; and as being dead to sin, through the death of Christ, and so living unto righteousness, or in a righteous manner; and as being justified by the righteousness of Christ, revealed in the Gospel: and "godly"; in a godly manner, according to the Word of God, and agreeably to the will of God; and in all godly exercises, both public and private, and to the glory of God: and that as long as

in this present world: which lies in wickedness, and in which there are so many strong temptations to a contrary way of living. The Gospel then is no licentious doctrine; it is according to godliness, and teaches and promotes it; it is an holy faith, yea, a most holy faith; wherefore it is a vile slander to charge it with leading to looseness of life and conversation.


[u][i][b][size=large][color=FF0033]I John 2:1-2[/color][/size][/b][/i][/u]
John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible.

1 John 2:1

INTRODUCTION TO 1 JOHN 2

In this chapter the apostle comforts the saints under a sense of sin; urges them to an observance of the commandments of God, in imitation of Christ, particularly to the new commandment of brotherly love, and gives his reasons for it; dehorts them from the love of the world, and the things of it; cautions them against false teachers and antichrists, and exhorts them to abide in Christ, and persevere in the faith of him. He first declares that the end of his writing was to prevent their sinning; but supposing any should fall into sin through infirmity, he comforts them with the consideration of the advocacy of Christ, and of his being the propitiation for the sins both of Jews and Gentiles, 1Jo 2:1, and whereas some persons might boast of their knowledge of Christ, and neglect his commands, he observes, that the keeping of them is the best evidence of true knowledge, and of the sincerity of their love to God, and of their being in Christ; and that such who show no regard to them are liars, and the truth is not in them; and such that profess to be in Christ and abide in him, ought to walk as they have him for an example, 1Jo 2:3, and instances in a particular commandment, to love one another, which on different accounts is called an old and a new commandment, and which has been verified both in Christ and his people; for which a reason is given in the latter, the darkness being past, and the true light shining, 1Jo 2:7, upon which some propositions are founded, as that he that professes to be in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness to this very moment; and that he that loves his brother is evidently in the light, nor will he easily give or take offence; and that he that hates his brother is not only in darkness, but walks in it, being blinded by it, and so knows not whither he is going, 1Jo 2:9, and this commandment of love the apostle writes to the saints, as distinguished into the several classes of fathers, young men, and children; and urges it on them from the consideration of the blessings of grace peculiar to them; as ancient knowledge to fathers, strength and victory to young men, knowledge of the Father, and remission of sins, to children, 1Jo 2:12, and then he dissuades from the love of worldly things, seeing the love of them is not consistent with the love of God; and seeing the things that are in it are vain and sinful, and are not of God, but of the world; and since the world and its lust pass away, when he that does the will of God abides for ever, 1Jo 2:15, he next observes unto them, that there were many antichrists in the world; which was an evidence of its being the last time; and these he describes as schismatics and apostates from the Christian churches, 1Jo 2:18, but as for the saints he writes to, they were of another character, they were truly Christians, having an anointing from the Holy One, by which they knew all things; nor did the apostle write to them as ignorant, but as knowing persons, and able to distinguish between truth and error, 1Jo 2:20, and then he goes on with his description of antichristian liars, showing that they were such who denied Jesus to be the Messiah, and the relation that is between the Father and the Son, 1Jo 2:22, and closes the chapter with an exhortation to perseverance in the doctrine of Christ; since it was what they had heard from the beginning, and since by so doing they would continue in the Father and in the Son, and besides had the promise of eternal life, 1Jo 2:24, and indeed this was the main thing in view in writing to them concerning seducers, to preserve them from them, though indeed this was in a great measure needless, since the anointing they had received abode in them; and taught them all things, and according as they regarded its teaching they would abide in Christ, 1Jo 2:26, to which he exhorts them from the consideration of that boldness and confidence it would give them at his appearance, who they must know is righteous, and so that everyone that doth righteousness is born of him, 1Jo 2:28.

Ver. 1. My little children,.... The apostle may address the saints under this character, on account of their regeneration by the Spirit and grace of God, in which they were as newborn babes; and on account of his being the instrument of their conversion, and so was their spiritual father, and therefore calls them his own children; and he might the rather use such a way of speaking, because of his advanced age, being now in his old age, and John the elder in age as well as in office; as well as to show his paternal affection for them, and care of them, and that what he had wrote, or should write, was not from any disrespect, but from pure love to them; and it might serve to put them in mind of their weakness in faith, in knowledge, and spiritual strength, that they might not entertain high notions of themselves, as if they were perfect and without infirmities; and it is easy to observe, that this is one of Christ's expressions, Joh 13:33, from whose lips the apostle took it, whose words and phrases he greatly delighted in, as he seems to do in this, by his frequent use of it; see 1Jo 2:18.

These things write I unto you; concerning the purity and holiness of God, who is light itself; concerning fellowship with him, which no one that lives in sin can have; concerning pardon and cleansing from sin by the blood of Christ, and concerning sin being in them, and they not without it. The Ethiopic version reads, "we write", as in 1Jo 1:4;

that ye sin not; not that he thought they could be entirely without it, either without the being of it, or the commission of it, in thought, word, or deed, for this would be to suppose that which is contrary to his own words, in 1Jo 1:8; but he suggests that the end of his writing on these subjects was, that they might not live in sin, and indulge themselves in a vicious course of living, give up themselves to it, and walk in it, and work it with all greediness: and nothing could be more suitably adapted to such an end than the consideration of the holiness of God, who calls by his grace; and of the necessity of light and grace and holiness in men to communion with him; and of the pardoning grace of God and cleansing blood of Christ, which, when savingly applied, sets men against sin, and makes them zealous of good works; and of the indwelling of sin in the saints, which puts them upon their guard against it:

and if any man sin; as every man does, even everyone that is in the light, and walks in it, and has fellowship with God; everyone that believes in Christ, and is justified through his righteousness, and pardoned by his blood; everyone of the little children; for the apostle is not speaking of mankind in general who sin, for Christ is not an advocate for all that sin, but of these in particular; hence the Arabic version renders it, "if any of you sin"; and this, with the following, he says not to encourage in sin, but to comfort under a sense of it:

we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; Christ is an advocate, not for just or righteous persons, for as he came not to call these to repentance, nor to die for them, so such have no need of an advocate, nor is he one for them; but as he came to call sinners, and to save them, and died for them, the just for the unjust, so he is an advocate, and makes intercession for transgressors; and not for all men, though they have all sinned; not for the world, or those so called in distinction from the persons given him by his Father, for these he prays not; but for all the elect, and whatsoever charges are brought against them he answers to them, and for them; and for all that believe in him, be they weak or strong, even for the apostles as well as others; for they were not without sin, were men of like passions as others, and carried about with them a body of sin, and had their daily infirmities, and so needed an advocate as others; and hence John says, "we have an advocate", &c. but then Christ is not an advocate for sin, though for sinners; he does not vindicate the commission of sin, or plead for the performance of it; he is no patron of iniquity; nor does he deny that his clients have sinned, or affirm that their actions are not sins; he allows in court all their sins, with all their aggravated circumstances; nor does he go about to excuse or extenuate them; but he is an advocate for the non-imputation of them, and for the application of pardon to them: he pleads in their favour, that these sins have been laid upon him, and he has bore them; that his blood has been shed for the remission of them, and that he has made full satisfaction for them; and therefore in justice they ought not to be laid to their charge; but that the forgiveness of them should be applied unto them, for the relief and comfort of their burdened and distressed consciences: and for this he is an advocate for his poor sinning people "with the Father"; who being the first Person, and the Son the advocate, and the Spirit sustaining a like character, is only mentioned; and he being God against whom sin is committed, and to whom the satisfaction is made; and the rather, as he is the Father of Christ, and of those for whom he is an advocate; seeing it may be concluded that his pleadings will be with success, since he is not only related to him, and has an interest in him himself, but the persons also, whose patron he is, are related to him, and have a share in his paternal affection and care: moreover, this phrase, as it expresses the distinct personality of Christ from the Father, so his being with him in heaven at his right hand, and nearness to him; where he discharges this office of his, partly by appearing in person for his people in the presence of God; and partly by carrying in and presenting their confessions of sin, and their prayers for the fresh discoveries and applications of pardoning grace, which he offers up to his Father with the sweet incense of his mediation; and chiefly by pleading the virtue of his blood, righteousness, and sacrifice, which are carried within the vail, and are always in sight, and call aloud for peace and pardon; as also by answering and removing the charges and accusations of the court adversary, the accuser of the brethren, the devil; as well as by the declarations of his will, demanding in point of justice, in consideration of his sufferings and death, that such and such blessings be bestowed upon his people, as pardon, righteousness, grace, and supplies of grace, and at last glory; and by applying these benefits to their souls as a "comforter", which the word here used also signifies, and is so rendered, Joh 14:16; and by the Arabic version here. Now the saints have but one advocate, and that is enough for them; the apostle does not say we have advocates, but "an advocate"; not angels, nor saints departed, but Jesus Christ only, who is the one Mediator between God and man, 1Ti 2:5: and he is a continual one, he ever lives to make intercession; his blood is always speaking, and he always pleading; and therefore it is said "we have", not we have had, or we shall have an advocate and he is a prevalent one, he is always heard, he thoroughly pleads the cause he undertakes, and ever carries it; which is owing to the dignity of his person, his interest with his Father, and the virtue and value of his sacrifice: and he every way fit for such a work, for he is "righteous"; not only in his natures, both divine and human, but in his office, as Mediator, which he faithfully and righteously performs; he is a very proper person to plead for guilty persons, which he could not do if he himself was guilty; but he is so holy and righteous that nothing can be objected to him by God; and it need not be doubted by men that he will act the faithful part to them, and righteously serve them and their cause; and it is moreover his righteousness which he has wrought out, and is imputed to them, that carries the cause for them; and therefore this character of Christ fitly added, as is also the following. The Jews {i} have adopted the word in the text into their language, but have applied it to a different purpose, to alms deeds, repentance, and good works. Much more agreeably Philo the Jew {k} speaks of the son of perfect virtue, paraklhtw, "as an advocate" for the forgiveness of sins, and for a supply of everlasting good things.

{i} Pirke Abot, c. 4. sect. 11. T. Bab. Sabbat, fol. 32. 1. T. Bab. Bava Bathra, fol. 10. 1. {k} De Vita Mosis, l. iii. p. 673.


1 John 2:2

Ver. 2. And he is the propitiation for our sins,.... For the sins of us who now believe, and are Jews:

and not for ours only; but for the sins of Old Testament saints, and of those who shall hereafter believe in Christ, and of the Gentiles also, signified in the next clause:

but also for [the sins] of the whole world; the Syriac version renders it, "not for us only, but also for the whole world"; that is, not for the Jews only, for John was a Jew, and so were those he wrote unto, but for the Gentiles also. Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles amle, "the world"; and
Mlweh lk, "the whole world"; and Mlweh twmwa, "the nations of the world" {l}; See Gill on "John 12:19"; and the word "world" is so used in Scripture; see Joh 3:16; and stands opposed to a notion the Jews have of the Gentiles, that hrpk Nhl Nya, "there is no propitiation for them" {m}: and it is easy to observe, that when this phrase is not used of the Gentiles, it is to be understood in a limited and restrained sense; as when they say {n},

"it happened to a certain high priest, that when he went out of the sanctuary, amle ylwk, "the whole world" went after him;''

which could only design the people in the temple. And elsewhere {o} it is said,

"amle ylwk, "the "whole world" has left the Misna, and gone after the "Gemara";''

which at most can only intend the Jews; and indeed only a majority of their doctors, who were conversant with these writings: and in another place {p},

"amle ylwk, "the whole world" fell on their faces, but Raf did not fall on his face;''

where it means no more than the congregation. Once more, it is said {q}, when

"R. Simeon ben Gamaliel entered (the synagogue), amle ylwk, "the whole world" stood up before him;''

that is, the people in the synagogue: to which may be added {r},

"when a great man makes a mourning, amle ylwk, "the whole world" come to honour him;''

i.e. a great number of persons attend the funeral pomp: and so these phrases, ygylp al amle ylwk, "the whole world" is not divided, or does not dissent {s}; yrbo amle ylwk, "the whole world" are of opinion {t}, are frequently met with in the Talmud, by which, an agreement among the Rabbins, in certain points, is designed; yea, sometimes the phrase, "all the men of the world" {u}, only intend the inhabitants of a city where a synagogue was, and, at most, only the Jews: and so this phrase, "all the world", or "the whole world", in Scripture, unless when it signifies the whole universe, or the habitable earth, is always used in a limited sense, either for the Roman empire, or the churches of Christ in the world, or believers, or the present inhabitants of the world, or a part of them only, Lu 2:1; and so it is in this epistle, 1Jo 5:19; where the whole world lying in wickedness is manifestly distinguished from the saints, who are of God, and belong not to the world; and therefore cannot be understood of all the individuals in the world; and the like distinction is in this text itself, for "the sins of the whole world" are opposed to "our sins", the sins of the apostle and others to whom he joins himself; who therefore belonged not to, nor were a part of the whole world, for whose sins Christ is a propitiation as for theirs: so that this passage cannot furnish out any argument for universal redemption; for besides these things, it may be further observed, that for whose sins Christ is a propitiation, their sins are atoned for and pardoned, and their persons justified from all sin, and so shall certainly be glorified, which is not true of the whole world, and every man and woman in it; moreover, Christ is a propitiation through faith in his blood, the benefit of his propitiatory sacrifice is only received and enjoyed through faith; so that in the event it appears that Christ is a propitiation only for believers, a character which does not agree with all mankind; add to this, that for whom Christ is a propitiation he is also an advocate, 1Jo 2:1; but he is not an advocate for every individual person in the world; yea, there is a world he will not pray for Joh 17:9, and consequently is not a propitiation for them. Once more, the design of the apostle in these words is to comfort his "little children" with the advocacy and propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, who might fall into sin through weakness and inadvertency; but what comfort would it yield to a distressed mind, to be told that Christ was a propitiation not only for the sins of the apostles and other saints, but for the sins of every individual in the world, even of these that are in hell? Would it not be natural for persons in such circumstances to argue rather against, than for themselves, and conclude that seeing persons might be damned notwithstanding the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, that this might, and would be their case. In what sense Christ is a propitiation, See Gill on "Ro 3:25". The Jews have no notion of the Messiah as a propitiation or atonement; sometimes they say {w} repentance atones for all sin; sometimes the death of the righteous {x}; sometimes incense {y}; sometimes the priests' garments {z}; sometimes it is the day of atonement {a}; and indeed they are in the utmost puzzle about atonement; and they even confess in their prayers {b}, that they have now neither altar nor priest to atone for them; See Gill on "1Jo 4:10".

{l} Jarchi in Isa. liii. 5. {m} T. Hieros. Nazir, fol. 57. 3. Vid. T. Bab. Succa, fol. 55. 2. {n} T. Bab. Yoma, fol. 71. 2. {o} T. Bab. Bava Metzia, fol. 33. 2. {p} T. Bab. Megilla, fol. 22. 2. {q} T. Bab. Horayot, fol. 13. 2. {r} Piske Toseph. Megilla, art. 104. {s} T. Bab. Cetubot, fol. 90. 2. & Kiddushin, fol. 47. 2. & 49. 1. & 65. 2. & Gittin, fol. 8. 1. & 60. 2. {t} T. Bab. Kiddushin, fol. 48. 1. {u} Maimon. Hilch. Tephilla, c. 11. sect. 16. {w} Zohar in Lev. fol. 29. 1. {x} Ib. fol. 24. 1. T. Hieros. Yoma, fol. 38. 2. {y} T. Bab. Zebachim, fol. 88. 2. & Erachin, fol. 16. 1. {z} T. Bab. Zebachim, ib. T. Hieros. Yoma, fol. 44. 2. {a} T. Bab. Yoma, fol. 87. 1. & T. Hieros. Yoma, fol. 45. 2, 3. {b} Seder Tephillot, fol. 41. 1. Ed. Amsterd.


(continued...)

Y
yoadam

[u][i][b][size=large][color=FF0033]I John 4:14-15[/color][/size][/b][/i][/u]
1 John 4:14

Ver. 14. And we have seen, and do testify,.... This seems to be particularly said of the apostles, who had a clear discerning of the love and grace of God, manifested in the mission of Christ into the world; for though no man had seen his nature and his person, yet they had seen his love, and the exceeding riches of his grace, which he had shown forth in Christ Jesus; and they had also seen Christ, God manifest in the flesh; they had seen his glory, as the glory of the only begotten of the Father; they had seen him with their bodily eyes; they had seen his works and miracles; they had seen him dying and risen again from the dead, and go up to heaven; they were witnesses, and eyewitnesses of him, and bore a faithful testimony of him, and for him, and particularly set their seal to this truth,

that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world; not of every individual person in it, for there are some that will go into everlasting punishment, and even a world that will be condemned; Christ is not in fact the Saviour of all the individuals of human nature, and therefore was not sent to be such; for if he was, the end of his mission is not fully answered; nor of the Jews only, but of the Gentiles also, and who are chiefly intended by "the world"; See Gill on "1Jo 2:2"; and even of all the elect of God, styled his people, his sheep, his friends, his church, and the sons of God; and it may be said of all that believe in him throughout the whole world, without any distinction of nation, age, sex, state, or condition: and Christ is the Saviour both of the souls and bodies of these, from all their sins, original and actual; from the power of Satan, the bondage and curse of the law, and wrath to come, and he is the only, able, willing, and complete Saviour, and who saves with an everlasting salvation.


1 John 4:15

Ver. 15. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God,.... The only begotten of the Father; that he is not a mere man, as the Jews, and Ebion and Cerinthus said, but a divine person, equal with the Father; which contains all that relates to the dignity of his person, and his fitness for his office as a Saviour, and which was the test of faith in those times, and the grand article of belief: not that a bare assent to this had what followed annexed to it; for the devils believed and owned that Jesus was the Son of God; and so might, and did, unregenerate persons, as the centurion at the cross of Christ, who know nothing what communion with God is; but this confession is such as is attended with a believing in Christ from the heart unto righteousness, life, and salvation, and a cheerful obedience to his ordinances and commands, from a principle of love to him, and faith in him, things not to be found in devils and carnal men; see Ro 10:9.

God dwelleth in him, and he in God; See Gill on "1Jo 4:13"; this should encourage to an open and hearty confession of Christ as the Son of God, and Saviour of sinners, and to a public profession of his name, and faith in him, and an holding it fast without wavering.

H
hmmhmm

why do we need read so much, or why do we write so much. myself included, when scriptures like many of the above mean exactly what they say?

Y
yoadam


hmmhmm wrote:
why do we need read so much, or why do we write so much. myself included, when scriptures like many of the above mean exactly what they say?

The scriptures deserve complete attention to every minute detail.

You should have read the "all always means all. right?" article which I linked to above. In it he says,

"This is not complex hermeneutics. I'm guessing you make sense of the various ways people use words like [i]all[/i] and [i]always[/i] [u]all the time[/u] in everyday speech. [b]All[/b] you need to do is apply the same standards of common sense and context when you read Scripture, and it will [b]all[/b] make better sense."

Everything is not so plain as it seems!

R
rbanks

Romans 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

1 Corinthians 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Paul believed that God could save anybody that opened up to the gospel- hear it, believe it, and continue in it.

The bottom line is that unless you are born of God when you die or leave this world, then you want even see the kingdom of heaven nor will you enter into it. So why don’t we just get busy at witnessing Jesus to everybody believing that everyone who believes in Christ can be saved and leave the electing to the one who does the electing. We are not the one’s doing the electing anyway, we are the one’s doing the believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, in the only one who can save us. He tells all to repent and believe, so if you are one of those who repents and believes then praise God for his marvelous grace to save a wretch like you. If you have not repented and believed in the Lord Jesus Christ then today is the day of salvation don’t wait thinking you have plenty of time because once you die it will be to late, only the judgment.

There will be nobody in hell who was elected to eternal life but how many will their be in hell who thought they were elected or how many will be in hell because they didn’t believe they could be elected because of the doctrines of men.

I don’t have to know all the details of election to be able to thank God that he has elected me to eternal life since I have been born of God.

Blessings to all!

C
ChrisJD

Dear Chrisitan,


"why do we need read so much, or why do we write so much. myself included, when scriptures like many of the above mean exactly what they say?"


I believe you have asked an important question for each of us to consider.

I certainly could not answer for anyone.

Jesus knows our motives and why it is that we do what we do(Luke 16:15).


If I were to even ask this of myself I could probably only guess or maybe find many possible reasons why.


Would it be that I was seeking to be confirmed in what I already believed(2Timothy 4:3)?

Or seeking others to affirm what I was in doubt of, even though I outwardly pretended great confidence about it(John 9:24, 16)?

Or perhaps to rely upon their powers of speech to convince others(Acts 24:1-2)?


Maybe it was that I did not know what to say(Luke 20:5)?

But too, I cannot recall that the Lord Jesus appealed to anything other than what God had said and I thought also how He had qouted the scripture that man must not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.


It does seem strange that we should so often appeal to the inspired words of God to proclaim something, and other words that we do not claim to be inspired, to explain them to others.

I wish us all well, and help from God.

[i]edited to correct the chapter refrence for 2Ti 4:3 which was incorrectly entered as 2Ti 2:3[/i]

J
Jimotheus

Grace, peace, and love be multiplied:

First of all, I want to say to my Calvinist neighbors that when a person rejects Mr. Calvin's assumptions, it doesn't mean that that person is an Arminian. I know that most those who refer to themselves as, "Calvinist" think in this way, but believe it or not, a person can reject Calvinism and not be a Arminian.

Secondly, typical of some Calvinist (like John himself) when it comes to the clear catagorical affirmations of scripture that clearly posit God's will and provision for the salvation of all men; the passages that clearly teach this are always [i]"interpreted"[/i] not according to the context where the passages are found and for what the passages plainly teach, but rather according to the demands of John Calvin's assumptions. Added to this, many of the defenders of Calvinism follow this path by further obscuring these passages that clearly and plainly contradict Calvinist fatalism by creating a verbage of theological fog that seems more ponderous than illuminating. Let me quote two passages:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promises, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE. IIPeter 3:9.

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN SAVED, AND COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; WHO GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." ITimothy 2:3-6.

Question: Does it really take pages and pages of explaining, and commenting just to understand the plain catagorical statements above?

Let me also say that the word, [i]"all"[/i] in these verses mean, ALL. Now there is a logical fallacy among some who would like to apply the term,[i]"all"[/i] in other places in the Bible where it is used in a limited sense and apply it to these, and other passages where it is clear that the CONTEXT demand a literal meaning.
The atonement was accomplished for all men. This means that the benefits of that atonement encompasses all men POTENTIALLY. The New Testament no where teaches the false assumption of a so-called,[i]"limited atonement"[/i]. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes on him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The atonement of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ encompasses all men potentially, no man unconditionally, the[i]"Israel of God"[/i]efficiently.

Another thing I have notice from my Calvinistic neighbors is that when they quote passages they believe prove God from eternity past elected particular men to salvation and the rest to reprobation; if you read the passages suggested, they say nothing about some kind of divine interdiction of particular men from salvation, nor do they catagorically say God chose from eternity past PARTICULAR persons to salvation. This is read into the text, or as I said above, [i]"interpreted"[/i]according to the theological demands of Calvinism.

[u][i]"By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or the other of those ends, we say that he has been predestined to life of death." [/i][/u] John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian religion.

Now compare the above quote from Mr. Calvin with the passages I have quoted from the book of II Peter and I Timothy and judge whether Calvin's assumptions are in line with the inspired word of God.

I do not much more time (forgive me) but let me use one example of a passage often used to [i]"prove"[/i] that God from eternity past elected particular men to salvation:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they wer glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as WERE ORDAINED to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48.

I will quote, Bartlet:

[i]"ordained to eternal life.[/i]A bad rendering, as suggesting that human choice had no real part in such belief. The idea is simply that of preparedness of heart, without any thought as to how this came about. This is clear from the account of the Jews' unreadiness: they 'judged themselves unworthy'(in the sense of Matt. xxii. 8, 'The wedding is ready, but they that were bidden were not worthy' i.e. as making light of it, verse 5). Thus all is conceived to turn ultimately on man's own choice. Like the Pharisees in Luke vii. 30, the Jews 'rejected for themselves the counsel of God.' No divine [i]'decree'[/i] ordained the result either way. The best rendering then would be, 'were (found) disposed to eternal life,' which perserves the exact shade of the verb ('to set in order, arrange, dispose') and has just that degree of ambiguity which belongs to the original." J. Vernon Bartlet.

Another point to consider concerning Acts 13:48 in agreemeet with Bartlet is the simple fact that it does not say, 'fore-ordained' nor does it say, 'pre-ordained' as is read into the passage by the Calvinist. The Gk. word here in Acts 13:48 (tetagmenoi) doesn't even suggest this kind of interpretation. Marantha!!!

Y
yoadam


Jimotheus wrote:
Grace, peace, and love be multiplied:

First of all, I want to say to my Calvinist neighbors that when a person rejects Mr. Calvin's assumptions, it doesn't mean that that person is an Arminian. I know that most those who refer to themselves as, "Calvinist" think in this way, but believe it or not, a person can reject Calvinism and not be a Arminian.

Secondly, typical of some Calvinist (like John himself) when it comes to the clear catagorical affirmations of scripture that clearly posit God's will and provision for the salvation of all men; the passages that clearly teach this are always [i]"interpreted"[/i] not according to the context where the passages are found and for what the passages plainly teach, but rather according to the demands of John Calvin's assumptions. Added to this, many of the defenders of Calvinism follow this path by further obscuring these passages that clearly and plainly contradict Calvinist fatalism by creating a verbage of theological fog that seems more ponderous than illuminating. Let me quote two passages:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promises, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE. IIPeter 3:9.

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN SAVED, AND COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; WHO GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." ITimothy 2:3-6.

Question: Does it really take pages and pages of explaining, and commenting just to understand the plain catagorical statements above?

Let me also say that the word, [i]"all"[/i] in these verses mean, ALL. Now there is a logical fallacy among some who would like to apply the term,[i]"all"[/i] in other places in the Bible where it is used in a limited sense and apply it to these, and other passages where it is clear that the CONTEXT demand a literal meaning.
The atonement was accomplished for all men. This means that the benefits of that atonement encompasses all men POTENTIALLY. The New Testament no where teaches the false assumption of a so-called,[i]"limited atonement"[/i]. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes on him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The atonement of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ encompasses all men potentially, no man unconditionally, the[i]"Israel of God"[/i]efficiently.

Another thing I have notice from my Calvinistic neighbors is that when they quote passages they believe prove God from eternity past elected particular men to salvation and the rest to reprobation; if you read the passages suggested, they say nothing about some kind of divine interdiction of particular men from salvation, nor do they catagorically say God chose from eternity past PARTICULAR persons to salvation. This is read into the text, or as I said above, [i]"interpreted"[/i]according to the theological
demands of Calvinism.

[u][i]"By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or the other of those ends, we say that he has been predestined to life of death." [/i][/u] John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian religion.

Now compare the above quote from Mr. Calvin with the passages I have quoted from the book of II Peter and I Timothy and judge whether Calvin's assumptions are in line with the inspired word of God.

I do not much more time (forgive me) but let me use one example of a passage often used to [i]"prove"[/i] that God from eternity past elected particular men to salvation:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they wer glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as WERE ORDAINED to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48.

I will quote, Bartlet:

[i]"ordained to eternal life.[/i]A bad rendering, as suggesting that human choice had no real part in such belief. The idea is simply

that of preparedness of heart, without any thought as to how this came about. This is clear from the account of the Jews' unreadiness: they 'judged themselves unworthy'(in the sense of Matt. xxii. 8, 'The wedding is ready, but they that were bidden were not worthy' i.e. as making light of it, verse 5). Thus all is conceived to turn ultimately on man's own choice. Like the Pharisees in Luke vii. 30, the Jews 'rejected for themselves the counsel of God.' No divine [i]'decree'[/i] ordained the result either way. The best rendering then would be, 'were (found) disposed to eternal life,' which perserves the exact shade of the verb ('to set in order, arrange, dispose') and has just that degree of ambiguity which belongs to the original." J. Vernon Bartlet.

Another point to consider concerning Acts 13:48 in agreemeet with Bartlet is the simple fact that it does not say, 'fore-ordained' nor does it say, 'pre-ordained' as is read into the passage by the Calvinist. The Gk. word here in Acts 13:48 (tetagmenoi) doesn't even suggest this kind of interpretation. Marantha!!!


Hi. Nearly all of your above arguments were already thoroughly answered on the previous page 5 in this very thread. You should read them.

First of all, I want to say to my Calvinist neighbors that when a person rejects Mr. Calvin's assumptions, it doesn't mean that that person is an Arminian. I know that most those who refer to themselves as, "Calvinist" think in this way, but believe it or not, a person can reject Calvinism and not be a Arminian.

No, you mistake, as far as predestination and so-called "free-will" go, you side with the arminians and also the roman catholics.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes on him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I find it extremely frustrating when you keep quoting John 3:16 as if it is a proof against particular redemption. "...WHOSOEVER believes on him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -- AMEN. I agree, whosoever does believe, shall indeed not perish, but have everlasting life. But who is it that will believe? The elect-- those who were predestined before the foundation of the world. This is why the gospel must be preached indiscriminately to everybody in the world. We do not know who the elect are, but God does and He will ordain them to eternal life upon the hearing of the gospel! See James White exegete the greek of John 3:16 in the following video:[b][url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFZjsfaO2kc]Does John 3 16 Debunk Calvinism?[/url][/b]

Why don't you take a closer look at John 3:18?
"18\tHe that believeth on him is not condemned: [b]but he that believeth not is [u]condemned already,[/u]..."[/b]
CONDEMNED ALREADY. Why? See the second half of the verse, [b]"...because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."[/b]

But how can he believe? [i]Only if he is ordained to eternal life, then he can believe.[/i] Acts 13:48, 48\tAnd when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: [b]and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.[/b]

[b]By the way, the INCORRECT translation of Acts 13:48, which you quoted above as using "disposed to eternal life", is only used in the New World Translation-- yes, the Bible of the [u]Jehovah's Witnesses[/u].[/b] [i]Every evangelical Bible of serious scholarship in existence (that I know of), beginning with the Geneva and KJV, down through the NKJV, NASB, ESV, & NET all use the correct rendering.[/i]

[b]KJV[/b] - 48\tAnd when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and [b]as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.[/b]

[b]NKJV[/b] - 48\tNow when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And [b]as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.[/b]

[b]ESV[/b] - 48\tAnd when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and [b]as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.[/b]

[b]NASB[/b] - 48\tWhen the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and [b]as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.[/b]

[b]NET[/b] - 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began to rejoice181 and praise182 the word of the Lord, and [b]all who had been appointed for eternal life183 believed. [/b]

Let me also say that the word, "all" in these verses mean, ALL. Now there is a logical fallacy among some who would like to apply the term,"all" in other places in the Bible where it is used in a limited sense and apply it to these, and other passages where it is clear that the CONTEXT demand a literal meaning.

No. Explanation at the following link: http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2008/12/all-always-means-all-right.html (All always means all right?)

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN SAVED, AND COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; WHO GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." ITimothy 2:3-6.

Since you will not listen to John Gill on the matter, (see page 5...), Pastor Fredrick T. Greco explains the passage as follows:

"God is a Savior - in fact the Savior, the only Savior of people. God desires that people come to [i]“a knowledge of the truth,”[/i] that is, an understanding of the gospel. This is a truth that Paul described in the faithful saying in 1 Tim. 1:15, that [i]“Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.”[/i] Paul is encouraging the Ephesians, and you today, to have a universal scope for the gospel.

The Gospel is for all sorts of people – rich people, poor people, subjects, rulers, Jews, Greeks, even Americans. There is no sort of people for whom the gospel does not solve the problem of man’s alienation from God. The Gospel is God’s solution for the entire world.

Does this mean all men are saved? Are you afraid of verse 4? Did Paul misspeak? No! You may have misheard, but he did not misspeak. Verse four speaks of the universal appeal and access to the gospel, the [i]“knowledge of the truth.”[/i] The Gospel is for people whoever they are and wherever they are, but not for everyone without exception. Remember the context: Paul has asked Timothy to pray for [i]“all people.”[/i] Does that mean Timothy is supposed to know every single person alive? Of course not. We would never interpret "all" in that sense. But why then would we interpret "all" in the sense of "every single person without exception" when it is used in the very next sentence? That is why Paul gives examples of what kind of people Timothy is to pray for - [i]"kings, and all who are in high positions."[/i]

This is often the way the Bible speaks, using “all” and then giving examples. We do the same thing, don’t we? We can speak of America as "a land of opportunity for everyone." Yet it is obvious that not that every single person in America has opportunity The reality is that no matter who you are, where you come from, America is a place of opportunity. Don’t need a certain name, or background to have opportunity, like in other places.

It is also important to see the following verses as giving context to verse 4. In the following verses, Paul gives a [b]very particular[/b] message of salvation. He says that there is only one God, and that fact binds all of us (Jews, Greeks, Romans, etc.) together. There is only God to be preached and believed, no matter where you live, no matter what you do. But more than that, there is [b]only one Mediator[/b] - Christ Jesus. Only one Person who can Mediate between God and man. The Church cannot restrict the scope of gospel, pick what kind of people to pray for or want to see saved, it cannot broaden saving “knowledge of truth” God has set down in His Word. God is in completely control of His gospel. At the same time, to bring the wrong gospel to more people is to bring a true gospel to no people."

Regarding the latest so-called problem verse of yours for those who are reformed in doctrine, [b]2 Peter 3:9[/b], it is most definitely speaking of the elect. See,

[b]9\tThe Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.[/b]

First, we must take the verse in context. It is in a letter from Peter which was written to Christians (the elect). The verse exactly before verse9, says, "8\tBut,[b] beloved[/b], be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." and the chapter itself begins with, "1\t[b]This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you[/b]; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:"

With the above mentioned in mind, we now consider the immediate context, which is His promise, "9\t[b]The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;[/b]" So we know the Lord is not slack, but has a reason that He has not yet returned. What is the reason? [b]"but is longsuffering to [u]us-ward[/u], not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."[/b] See, it is clearly that the Lord is patient toward US, the elect. The Bible clearly teaches that God has a special people throughout the world, the elect, and these people must be called out and brought to repentance via the great commision. (See Ephesians 1:10-11, [b]"10\tThat in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11\tIn whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"[/b]
) SO, until the full number of the elect has come in, the Lord will not return. Revelation 5:9-10, "9\tAnd they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: [b]for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10\tAnd hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."[/b]

(For example, Romans 11:25-27,
"25\tFor I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;[b] that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26\tAnd so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer[/b]
, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27\tFor this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.")

[i]And for those who like to read, John Gill's exegesis of this passage is at the end of this post.[/i]

Another thing I have notice from my Calvinistic neighbors is that when they quote passages they believe prove God from eternity past elected particular men to salvation and the rest to reprobation; if you read the passages suggested, they say nothing about some kind of divine interdiction of particular men from salvation, nor do they catagorically say God chose from eternity past PARTICULAR persons to salvation.

[b]Wrong. This was already refuted by savannah. See the last post on page 3.[/b]

The atonement of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ encompasses all men potentially, no man unconditionally, the"Israel of God"efficiently.

No. The atonement of Christ applies to the elect effectually. Jesus' death was substitutionary. Since it was substitutionary, if He indeed died for every single person, then no person will be punished again in hell because the wrath of God on everyone would have been satisfied in Christs' death. We know that scripture teaches people will be hell, those are the ones for whom Jesus made no atonement. This was already explained and vindicated on page 5. Furthermore, please read http://vintage.aomin.org/Was%20Anyone%20Saved.html - Was Anyone Saved at the Cross? by James White.

You said to compare the John Calvin excerpt which you quoted with scripture-- well, ok here you go,

"By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or the other of those ends, we say that he has been predestined to life of death." John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian religion.

Now compare this with:
Ephesians 1:4-6,
[b]"4\tAccording as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5\tHaving predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6\tTo the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."[/b]

Ephesians 1:10-12,
[b]"10\tThat in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11\tIn whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12\tThat we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."[/b]

Romans 9:22-23,
[b]"22\tWhat if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23\tAnd that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"[/b]

Romans 9:11-18,[b]
"11\t(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12\tIt was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13\tAs it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14\tWhat shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15\tFor he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16\tSo then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17\tFor the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18\tTherefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."[/b]

Jude 1:4,
"4\tFor there are certain men crept in unawares, [b]who were before of old ordained to this condemnation,[/b] ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

[b]John Gill on 2 Peter 3:9,[/b]
2 Peter 3:9

Ver. 9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise,.... The Syriac version reads in the plural, "his promises", any of his promises;

though the words seem rather to regard the particular promise of Christ's coming, either to take vengeance on the Jewish nation, of

which coming there was a promise made, and is often referred to by Christ, and his apostles; see Mr 9:1
Heb 10:37; and it now being upwards of thirty years since it was given out, some men began to charge God with slackness and

dilatoriness; whereas the true reason of the delay of it was, that there might be time for the gathering in of his elect among them by

his angels, or apostles and ministers, sent into the several parts of Judea, that so none of them might perish, but be brought to faith

and repentance; and thus as the time of Christ's coming was prolonged more than was thought it would, so when the days of

afflictions were come, they were shortened also for these elect's sake: or this promise regards the second coming of Christ, to judge

the quick and dead at the last day, of which the former was a prelude, presage, and pledge; that Christ would come again, and

appear a second time in person, was promised by himself, and often spoken of by his apostles; and many of the primitive Christians

thought it would be very soon, and which might be occasioned by the hints that were given of his coming in the other sense. Now

this being deferred longer than was expected, the scoffers or mockers take upon them to charge the Lord with slackness in the

fulfilment of his promise:

as some men count slackness; as if he had either changed his purpose, or had prolonged it beyond the appointed time, or was

unmindful of his promise, and would never fulfil it; whereas he is in one mind, and none can turn him, nor will he delay the

fulfilment of his promise beyond the set time; he has fixed a day for his coming, in which he will judge the world in righteousness,

and he will keep it: he is not dilatory,

but is longsuffering to us-ward: not to all the individuals of human nature, for the persons intended by us are manifestly

distinguished from "some men" in the text, and from scoffers, mocking at the promise of Christ's coming, in the context, 2Pe 3:3; and

are expressly called beloved, 2Pe 3:1; and God's longsuffering towards them is their salvation, 2Pe 3:15, nor is it true of all men, that

God is not willing that any of them should perish, and that everyone of them should come to repentance, since many of them do

perish in their sins, and do not come to repentance, which would not be the case, if his determining will was otherwise; besides, a

society or company of men are designed, to which the apostle himself belonged, and of which he was a part; and who are

described, in his epistles, as the elect of God, called out of darkness, into marvellous light, and having obtained like precious faith

with the apostles; and must be understood either of God's elect among the Jews, for Peter was a Jew, and they were Jews he wrote

to; and then the sense is, that the delay of Christ's coming is not owing to any slackness in him, but to his longsuffering to his elect

among the Jews, being unwilling that any of that number among them should perish, but that all of them repent of their sins, and

believe in him; and therefore he waits till their conversion is over, when a nation shall be born at once, and they that have pierced

him look on him and mourn, and so all Israel shall be saved; or rather of the elect in general, whether among Jews or Gentiles, upon

whom the Lord waits to be gracious, and whose longsuffering issues in their conversion and salvation. And upon account of these

the Lord stays his coming till their number is complete in the effectual calling; and for their sakes he is longsuffering to others, and

bears with a wicked world, with the idolatry, superstition, heresy, profaneness, and impiety, with which it abounds; but when the

last man that belongs to that number is called, he will quickly descend in flames of fire, and burn the world, and the wicked in it, and

take his chosen ones to himself. The Alexandrian copy reads, "for you", or your sakes; and so the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and

Ethiopic versions. A passage somewhat like to this is met with in a book of the Jews {f}, esteemed by them very ancient.

"God prolongs or defers his anger with men; and one day, which is a thousand years, is fixed, besides the seventy years he

delivered to David the king.--And he does not judge man by his evil works which he continually does, for if so, the world would

not stand; but the holy blessed God defers his anger with the righteous, and the wicked, that they may return, by perfect

repentance, and be established in this world, and in the world to come.''

And it is an observation of theirs {g}, that when God is said to be "longsuffering", it is not written Pa Kra, but Mypa Kra,

intimating, that he is longsuffering both to the righteous and the wicked; but then he bears with the latter, for the sake of the

former: compare with this passage Re 6:9;

not willing that any should perish; not any of the us, whom he has loved with an everlasting love, whom he has chosen in his Son,

and given to him, and for whom he has died, and who are brought to believe in him. These, though they were lost in Adam, did not

perish; and though in their own apprehensions, when awakened and convinced, are ready to perish; and though their peace, joy,

and comfort, may perish for a while, and they may fear a final and total perishing; yet they shall never perish as others do, or be

punished with everlasting destruction: and that this is the will of God, appears by his choice of them to salvation; by the

provisions of grace for them in an everlasting covenant; by the security of their persons in the hands of Christ; by sending his Son

to obtain salvation for them, and his Spirit to apply it to them; and by his keeping them by his power, through faith, unto salvation.

But that all should come to repentance; not legal, but evangelical, without which all must perish; and which all God's elect stand in

need of, as well as others, being equally sinners; and which they cannot come to of themselves, and therefore he not only calls

them to it, in his word, and by his spirit and grace, but bestows it upon them; he has exalted Christ at his own right hand, to give it

to them; and repentance is a grant from him, a free gift of his grace; and the Spirit is sent down into their hearts to work it in them,

to take away the stony heart, and give an heart of flesh; without which, whatever time and space may be given, or means afforded,

even the most awful judgments, the greatest mercies, and the most powerful ministry, will be of no avail.

{f} Zohar in Gen. fol. 83. 3. {g} T. Hieros, Taanioth, fol. 65. 2. T. Bab. Bava Kama, fol. 50. 2.

Adam.

M
Miccah

This thread is about as fun as sitting through an insurance seminar. Maybe one of those time-share pitches you get at the airport in Cancun.

Thanks everyone. :-P

Y
yoadam


Miccah wrote:
This thread is about as fun as sitting through an insurance seminar.

Never the less it is extremely important.

C
ChrisJD

If one is to live by God's words, then it is necessary to make certain that what we are living by truly is a word or words that have proceeded from God.


...by creating a verbage of theological fog...


- qoutes from posts of savannah and Jimotheus, respectively

When Satan attacked Adam and Eve in the Garden, he did so by calling into question what God had said.


One immediate result was that Eve, in her response, both [b]added[/b] to what God had said, and [i]limited[/i] it, saying 'neither shall ye touch it'(Gen 3:3).


When Paul, who says that he was ordained by God to preach the Gospel, (edit: did so) at Athens, he tells them that God is [i]not far from every one of us:[/i](Acts 17:27), and that He [i]now commandeth all men every where to repent[/i](Acts 17:30).

He, so far as I can tell, does not ask them to consider if Christ had died and rose again [b]for them[/b](see for instance Acts 17:31).


According to John, the Lord Jesus did speak in a certain place about his sheep hearing His voice. He said to those in John chapter 5, who John records sought to kill Him(John 5:18), that He said what He had said, so that they might be saved(John 5:34).

There was a man once, who violently sought to kill those who believed in Jesus. He was perhaps even there when Stephen said he saw the Lord Jesus standing at the right hand of God(Acts 7:56-58).


His name was Saul. And the Lord Jesus asked him, "why persecutest thou me?"

[i]Edited to change a sentence structure and to add scripture refrences[/i]

S
sermonindex

would it be okay with ya'll if I just follow Jesus, and you all can sweat out the details?

I'm not trying to be snarky, or untoward, I would just humbly ask for your blessing and prayers in this regard, amen?

its hard enough being a Jew who follows Jesus, my kin give me enough grief already, I cant bear any more labeling, or theo-boxes to check, ie "cal/arm", etc.

in Jesus' love, neil

N
narrowpath

Arminianism is backdoor to popery. Many on this forum are siding with the roman catholics on the issues of predestination and "free-will".

As someone previously has said, these issues are crucial. Once more and I quote,

It seems to me you are making Calvin the pope of the reformation.

Dear Yoadam,
I think I have to be frank with you. I have come accross other young Christians full of carnal zeal for Calvinism. These statements are divisive, polarising, unloving and simply untrue. They do not show a lot of irresistable grace. Think about it.

Y
yoadam


narrowpath wrote:
Arminianism is backdoor to popery. Many on this forum are siding with the roman catholics on the issues of predestination and "free-will".

As someone previously has said, these issues are crucial. Once more and I quote,

It seems to me you are making Calvin the pope of the reformation.

Dear Yoadam,
I think I have to be frank with you. I have come accross other young Christians full of carnal zeal for Calvinism. These statements are divisive, polarising, unloving and simply untrue. They do not show a lot of irresistable grace. Think about it.


Hello,

I stand by what I have said and cannot recant, for it is the truth as the Lord Jesus has shown me through scripture. Show me in scripture where my doctrine is wrong, and then I will repent. As I have held throughout this discussion, if I have ever been unloving towards a brother or sister, please forgive me, as we who hold the "doctrines of grace" ought be the most graceful people on the earth. Indeed it is true that orthodoxy without orthopraxy is worthless. Or rather, as James puts it, "19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." Being merely correct is not enough, as the apostle Paul puts it, "16\tTake heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." We must watch both our life, and our doctrine.

In this discussion, I have attacked the idolatrous position of Arminianism and defended the old truths of Calvinism; which in fact did not belong to Calvin, nor Augustine, but to the apostle Paul and the whole of Christian scriptures.

Now you label me as, "full of carnal zeal", "divisive, polarising, unloving and simply untrue." and lacking in "irresistable grace."

In other words, I am a carnal, divisive, hating, liar, lacking grace.

Now, would you drop the name calling, please?

In this discussion I have not sought to attack anyone personally, but to reveal the lies of arminianism as a theological heresy which it is. Those holding to Arminius' beliefs, need simply repent and believe in the pure gospel. If anything, I believe I have not been harsh enough with the errors of arminianism. Consider only the title of a work by the puritan John Owen--

---
A DISPLAY OF ARMINIANISM:
BEING
A DISCOVERY OF THE OLD PELAGIAN IDOL FREE-WILL,
WITH THE
NEW GODDESS CONTINGENCY,
ADVANCING THEMSELVES INTO THE THRONE OF THE GOD
OF HEAVEN,
TO THE PREJUDICE OF HIS GRACE, PROVIDENCE, AND SUPREME
DOMINION OVER THE CHILDREN OF MEN;
Wherein
THE MAIN ERRORS BY WHICH THEY ARE FALLEN OFF
FROM THE RECEIVED DOCTRINE OF ALL
THE REFORMED CHURCHES, WITH THEIR OPPOSITION IN
DIVERS PARTICULARS
TO THE DOCTRINE ESTABLISHED IN THE CHURCH OF
ENGLAND,
ARE DISCOVERED AND LAID OPEN OUT OF THEIR OWN
WRITINGS AND CONFESSIONS, AND CONFUTED
BY THE WORD OF GOD.
---

And that is the truth.

For those who still believe we who are nowadays called, "Calvinists" are in error, I would only suggest you pick up a copy of John Owen's book, "[url=http://www.ccel.org/ccel/owen/deathofdeath.html]The Death of Death in the Death of Christ[/url]", which still today, (a few hundred years later), stands unrefuted. Go ahead and attempt to refute it yourself, if it is indeed not merely defending the truths of scripture. "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ is John Owen’s definitive work on the extent of the atonement. It is a polemical work, designed to show among other things that the doctrine of universal redemption is unscriptural and destructive of the gospel." Of course, many who read this paragraph will sigh to themselves and say, "there he goes again, trusting in the books and doctrines of men..." This I reject, as John Owen is simply defending the truths of scripture in this book against heresy. He wrote what he wrote for the sake of the truths of our God and His glory. I submit to you those who take this extreme "reading anything except the Bible is a sin" view are being anti-intellectual for the sake of the suppression of the truth.

All I have done is reveal arminianism as the heresy that it is, and defended calvinism as being nothing more than the ancient faith, the true orthodoxy as set forth in scriptures. (It is a shame John Calvin had his name slapped on it! He certainly did not invent these truths and was only one of the many reformers who believed these truths and spread them to the masses.)

I have never exalted John Calvin so as to make him the "protestant pope" or any such devilish thing. I reject that. I have merely defended the man's name, as he was a humble man of God who loved our Lord Jesus. I am very surprised at the way he has been ridiculed in this discussion with all of the slanderous remarks and cheap-shots in general which have been made of him. We must remember what our Lord said, [b]"36\tBut I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."[/b]

I am now stepping out of this thread, I pray the Lord uses the truth of which I and the other reformed brothers have posted to open the eyes of those who are in self-deception.

[b]"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."[/b]

Sincerely,
Adam Schaefers.
adam.schaefers@gmail.com

W
Wordizlife

for my own benefit it's better that I never even pick up one of these books by calvin or spurgeon or whomever, and that I stick to reading God's word. This thread seems "dead" to me. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life.

I see apostle Paul as way more important person than calvin, spurgeon or anyone...and even he got upset when the corinthian church was divided between "followers of paul and apollos."

He concluded chapter 3 in 1st COR as "So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours...."

And about the beliefs of arminianism. I don't know anything about that. I know Jesus never preached against free-will. He said "He who perseveres to the end shall be saved." Why should I worry about this matter of free-will?

IMO this whole debate doesn't bring life. When I was a baby Christian this debate brought too much confusion and doubting than it brought life to my soul.

It's more beneficial for me to just stick to God's Word and praying that He teaches me how to live out the principles found in the Bible.

my 0.02 cent

C
crsschk

Adam,

I would disagree on a number of fronts ...

I stand by what I have said and cannot recant, for it is the truth as the Lord Jesus has shown me through scripture. Show me in scripture where my doctrine is wrong, and then I will repent. As I have held throughout this discussion, if I have ever been unloving towards a brother or sister, please forgive me, as we who hold the "doctrines of grace" ought be the most graceful people on the earth. Indeed it is true that orthodoxy without orthopraxy is worthless. Or rather, as James puts it, "19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." Being merely correct is not enough, as the apostle Paul puts it, "16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." We must watch both our life, and our doctrine.

Where your 'doctrine' is off is at the core, in it's ignorance and by the use of such things as ...

In this discussion I have not sought to attack anyone personally, but to reveal the lies of arminianism as a theological heresy which it is.

Lies and heresy? That is both very ignorant and accusatory as it is a misrepresentation - That is [i]usually[/i] (and often rightly) the retort reserved for those of a Calvinist persuasion, that they are being misrepresented.

Now to be fair and backing up a hair ...

Now you label me as, "full of carnal zeal", "divisive, polarising, unloving and simply untrue." and lacking in "irresistable grace."

In other words, I am a carnal, divisive, hating, liar, lacking grace.

Now, would you drop the name calling, please?

This is no better ...

As long as this seeming controversy reigns and it will because we are so dull of understanding and prefer to be stuck in our cemented theological constructs ... I can think of no other representation, no better (and certainly that which is a personal grasp of seeing both sides while joining neither), even if being pressed would lean [i]slightly[/i] towards those articles that are expressed as reformed or 'Calvinistic' than the following;

[b]John Newton and the English Evangelical Tradition: Between the Conversions of Wesley and Wilberforce -[/b]

I could not recommend this more highly to anyone and everyone regardless. It is not a dissertation on the never ending debate at all. It does however cover much of that very ground as a matter of course. Not the 'doctrines' per se, but the [i]people[/i] of that time, the churches and the mindsets, many of which by the way are no different in jumping to sweeping conclusions of "heresy and lies" and things of that sort. No, the difference is in really, truly and honestly trying to grasp and grapple with other sincere believers varying perspectives which is at the root of the whole matter.

Read through this short thread regarding all this;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=26483&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]Letters of John Newton[/url]

A link to the book is available there as well - But let me just say that John Newton was a man who understood while still being a so called "Calvinist" - He was shunned by his own 'kind' for even having associations with the likes of Wesley for many, many years - He accepted and knew the issues inside and out and rose above it all. This is more than the minutiae of threading particulars of theology but getting to the core of what truly matters. Flinging labels around helped no one then and helps no one any better now.

An excerpt or two on the man;

[i]Newton was the ultimate Christian boundary-crosser and bridge-builder. He was a Calvinist who accepted Arminians, a state-church pastor who encouraged independent churches, friend of prominent personalities who was comfortable in the company of the working poor.


In an America more pluralistic than ever on its Christian scene—not to mention the many non-Christian religions—John Newton is a man worth knowing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It was during this period of peak influence in his London parish that Newton founded the Eclectic Society, a group of like-minded "Gospel" clergy, to discuss the issues of the day. It was, he said, "the society that bears no name, and espouses no party." It included in its membership Anglicans, nonconformists, and even a Moravian or two.

The agenda of each monthly meeting was driven by a single question, submitted by one of the members at the end of the previous meeting. The members would take turns answering, and Newton kept minutes in a small journal.

The questions spanned theological issues, cultural trends, and the practical trials and dilemmas of church and family life—from "How should we reconcile Paul and James on justification?" to "What are the particular dangers of youth in the present day?"

Newton insisted the group maintain a high tone of gracious humility. In responding to theological error and dealing with ecclesiastical foes, kindness always took precedence over sternness and persuasion over polemics.

"If we stretch our authority, we lose it," Newton observed.

In both its charitable tone and its parachurch format, the Eclectic Society became the model for other parachurch societies (including William Wilberforce's influential Clapham Sect) and agencies (including the great British missionary societies, two of which were birthed out of the Eclectic Society).[/i]

I am having a hard time letting this go ... Again I cannot express the importance of this simple book for those so caught up in all of this. It is redundantly not focused on this subject matter in isolation but is about the mans life while he lived, where he lived and those times that surrounded it. It is eye opening to read it in light of those controversy's that are still so much alive today. The misrepresentations on either side are far better treated there than there are now, with us latching on to and so often persuaded by other men's constructs, we tend to wear their glasses and forget how to think for ourselves independent of what is taken in from their point of view.

What Dr. Hindmarsh has done in his book is present things as they were in an almost investigatory manner. It's unbiased and without an inventive slant, that comes through without ever a mention of it. He uses a ton of research and must have spent countless hours piecing it all together - First person accounts, letters between the friendships that Newton had with a whole swath of believers (as mentioned above) and while mostly biographical of Newton it is his attempt at giving an overall perspective of the times. The 'controversy' was certainly at it's height and was often just as hostile as it is now - But there stood one man who just plainly ... 'got it'. I will side with that mindset every time.

I cannot recommend this enough, especially for those who cannot resist themselves in painting other believers with different takes and perspectives as _______. It is often just not that simple and more often just a very poor representation of what either side is portraying.

K
kingsfishers

Dear brethren,

I have been reading this thread for a while and was not going to respond, however, I feel I must. I am not a Calvinist or an Arminian, I am a CHRISTIAN period. I have read a little of Calvin none of Arminius yet, a lot of Whitefield and a lot of Finney. My persuasion is that if any oof these men were present today and have any spirituality at all, they would tell echo Paul in 1 Cor. 3:5 "Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye have believed", they may say, "Who then is Calvin, who is Arminius, who is Whitefield, etc., but ministers by whom ye believed". Reading the works of different men is fine, but avoid labeling yourselfs as Calvinists or Arminians and just be Christians. Sure Paul said in 1 Cor. 11:1 Paul said "Be ye followers of me, even as I am of Christ", the key there is "as I am of Christ". We shhould only be followers of men as fas as they follow Christ, and even so, we are to not put them on this pedestal as though they are our savior.
As I have already stated, reading what someone has wrote about the Word is ok, but let mme isssue a challennge to everybody, make a decision for the next thirty days to lay aside anything that has been written about the Word, commentaries and all, lay aside all your teaching CD's, and anything outside of the Bible. For thirty days use only the Bible, and maybe a Hebrew/Greek lexicon like Strong's concordance, and maybe a dictionary to help you understand difficult words, and lots of prayer, let your mind be always focused on the Lord and Him alone. During that thirty days, abandon everything you have been taught about God and his Word and allow the Holy Spirit to teach you! So often our understanding of God is based on what we have been taught by another man and not what we have been taught by God.
Looking through the history of the Church I find that men have always done what is being done in this thread, and that is disagreeing with each others doctrine and interpretation of the Word. I believe that we need to lay aside what we think is right and ask the Lord what He knows is right. The desire of the Lord is not for us to be disunified, but to be united and have union with each other and himself. Jesus prayed annd asked the Father, "That they all may be one" John 17:21 and in Acts 2:1 "They were all of one accord and in one place". Let us return to the Word and become one again as the disciples were in the upper room.

P.S. We are new to the area of Hemet, Ca aand looking for fellowship here, if annybody is in the area, or knows anybody here, please PM me.

God Bless,
Richard
The King's Fishers

H
hmmhmm

once i did a study on Calvins 5 points, i found out they where not really his, or he did not pen them down as in five points, after that i found there was 7 point calvinist and even 11 point i think if i remember right, later i found the arminian 5 points, and some other "systems" of theology, or principles if you will, and after studying for my self i came to the conclusion that my system of theology also was going to consist of points, after much consideration i found there was only one point


Jesus Christ

I came to the conclusion he is my righteousness, y sanctification, in him all heavenly riches are given me, it is to his image i am predestined to become, it is in his steps i should walk, it is he who can keep me from falling even once, it is he who died for me, it is he who rose for me, it is he who intercede for me, it is he who baptizes me in the Holy Spirit, it is he who will come back for me, it is in his name all my prayers are heard, it is by his blood i can come to the most holy place.


It is by his mercy, by his grace, by his will he created me, he recreated me in the birth from above. He gave me a new heart, he works in me.

my point is Jesus Christ, my system of theology is Jesus Christ, my defense when talking to people i think are maybe in error somehow, mildly or severly i preach Christ, when i encurage people i can preach Christ, when i warn people i can preach Christ. When i comfort people i can preach Christ, when i pray for people i can come to Christ.


my point is Jesus Christ

some have called me immature for this view, but after much study i found all other points in all system fail, no matter the side, the only thing that will remain is Jesus Christ, on that day all theologians, all system of theology, how ever right will vanish by this one, Jesus Christ, he is our salvation, he is our joy, he is our everything, in him is eternal life, in him everything ever created is, and for him.

I like John Wesley for many reasons, but for one when he preached he said [i]I offer men Christ[/i]....

do we offer men Christ or a system of theology they need read volumes of books and yet end up more confused then the simple truth of Jesus Christ that even a small child can understand, sometimes i can read a verse to my seven year old girl, and she believe it and understand it just as it says, but the "wise" of this world have debated it for hundreds of years and still are in the very same spot as where the discussion started.

When i was once in an institution they told me, [i]Christian, do you know one definition for mentally insane? I responded no.... he said it is when someone do the same thing over and over again, but expects a different result every time, not being able to see from past experiences[/i]

dont know how good a definition that is, i am sure there are hundred more, but i remember it well, and yet so often we do the same mistake over and over even as our fathers have done before us in the faith, but yet we expect a different result.

I suggest we go about it a different way, let us walk after Christ, preach what he preached and offer him to men, instead of so much theology, I once asked a man i have much respect for, how can we be sure to avoid being mislead and deceived in this day we are living with so much heresy and deception in the church? he said, read the gospels, study Jesus life, if you follow him you can never go wrong or lost.

I think it was the best advice any man could give.


Follow him saints, and when you stand before him on that great and terrible day, you will be alright.


God bless you

H
hmmhmm

"If we stretch our authority, we lose it," Newton observed.


I believe Newton observed rightly, thank you mike for your post

C
Christinyou


Calvin:
I can never loose Gods salvation.

Yeh! brother, but those that sin can not enter the kingdom.

Preach Christ to them.

Armenius
You will loose your salvation if you don't do your Part.

Yeh! brother, But God does not make mistakes in who He saves.

Preach Christ to them.

We will all come to the same Spirit if we only seek Christ.

Col 1:27-28 perfect in Christ and in each other because of Him that is in us.

In Christ: Phillip


S
sermonindex

Christinyou wrote:


"Calvin:
I can never loose Gods salvation.

Yeh! brother, but those that sin can not enter the kingdom.

Preach Christ to them.

Armenius
You will loose your salvation if you don't do your Part.

Yeh! brother, But God does not make mistakes in who He saves.

Preach Christ to them.

We will all come to the same Spirit if we only seek Christ."

AMEN!!

J
Jimotheus

Greetings to all:

I must say that this discussion has generated some interesting and predictable responses, especially from our Calvinistic neighbors. Be that as it may, there is one issue that I would like to reinerate concerning a verse of scripture that the Calvinist believe lends support to their theological presuppositions, and that is Acts 13:48.

[i]"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."[/i]

As many as were ordained to eternal life hosoi (NT:3745) eesan (NT:2258) tetagmenoi (NT:5021) eis (NT:1519) zooeen (NT:2222) aioonion (NT:166). Periphrastic past perfect passive indicative of tassoo (NT:5021), a military term to place in orderly arrangement. The word "ordain" is not the best translation here. "Appointed," as Hackett shows, is better. The Jews here had voluntarily rejected the word of God. On the other side were those Gentiles who gladly accepted what the Jews had rejected. Why these Gentiles here ranged themselves on God's side as opposed to the Jews (contrary to Calvinistic intrepretations) Luke does not tell us. There is no evidence that Luke had in mind an absolutum decretum of personal salvation. Paul had shown that God's plan extended to and included Gentiles. Certainly the Spirit of God does move upon the human heart to which some respond, as here, while others push him away. However, for a consistant Calvinism one must believe in an absolutum decretum to personal damnation.

This is a side of Calvinism not often mentioned by the proponents of Calvinism. They seem to roar like lions concerning the unconditional election of particular persons to salvation by the divine decree of God from eternity past, but are silent concerning what would be the logical other side of the coin, namely, the unconditional divine decree of God from eternity past concerning the unbelief and damnation of the rest of humanity. This is theistic, or rather, Calvinistic fatalism. [i]Que Sera, Sera[/i], [i]what ever will be will be[/i] by a mysterious divine decree. Well has Lawrence Vance observed:

"Although Calvinists go out of their way to distance themselves from fatalism, they are in essence teaching the same thing. When a philosopher believes "what is to be will be" it is called determinism. When a stoic believes "what is to be will be" it is called fate. When a Moslem believes "what is to be will be" it is called fatalism. But when a Calvinist believes "what is to be will be" it is called predestination."

Even when it comes to the fall of Adam into sin and all of the unfortunate consequences that followed; according to a consistant Calvinism we must believe that Adam was pushed by God into sin by divine decree. The fall of Lucifer that made him Satan can also be included in this if one is to maintain a consistant Calvinism. And if God by an unconditional divine decree elects particular persons to salvation with no consideration of repentance and faith in Christ (only some, [i]hidden purpose[/i] in God himself) then faith and repentance is a consequence of this divine choice already made in eternity past. In like manner God has unconditionally by divine decree reprobated the rest of humanity by the same [i]hidden purpose[/i] in himself with no consideration of the sin and unbelief in the lost. In fact according to a consistant Calvinism, the sin and unbelief in the sinner is only a consequence of a divine decree made from eternity past, that is, the source of sin and unbelief is to be found in God just as the source of faith and repentance is to be found in God. If God doesn't take into account anything in the ones he chooses to save, he doesn't take into account anything in those whom he has reprobated.

I have wondered; if Calvinism is the Gospel as they posit, then why isn't the five points of Calvinism ever clearly and distinctly evangelized to the lost. Why is it that they can't seem to be up-front and franked about Calvinism, and on the bases of Calvin's five points call men and women to faith in Christ? Why is it that all who become Calvinist only do so after they have been saved if Calvinism is the Gospel? There is no possible scriptural explanation for the Calvinist version of reprobation because there is no scriptural affirmation of the Calvinist version of reprobation. To see in Scripture sinners being "held accountable for not trusting in a Saviour in whom they were never [unconditionally] chosen," you must be able to see that which is[i]"hidden."[/i]Evidently that is just what a good pair of Calvinist-colored glasses will allow you to do.

R
rookie

I stand by what I have said and cannot recant, for it is the truth as the Lord Jesus has shown me through scripture. Show me in scripture where my doctrine is wrong, and then I will repent.


Proverbs 1:
20 \tWisdom calls aloud outside;
\tShe raises her voice in the open squares.
21 \tShe cries out in the chief concourses,
\tAt the openings of the gates in the city
\tShe speaks her words:
22 \t“How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
\tFor scorners delight in their scorning,
\tAnd fools hate knowledge.
23 \tTurn at my rebuke;
\tSurely I will pour out my spirit on you;
\tI will make my words known to you.
24 \tBecause I have called and you refused,
\tI have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,
25 \tBecause you disdained all my counsel,
\tAnd would have none of my rebuke,
26 \tI also will laugh at your calamity;
\tI will mock when your terror comes,
27 \tWhen your terror comes like a storm,
\tAnd your destruction comes like a whirlwind,
\tWhen distress and anguish come upon you.
28 \t“Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
\tThey will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.
29 \tBecause they hated knowledge
\tAnd did not choose the fear of the LORD,
30 \tThey would have none of my counsel
\tAnd despised my every rebuke.
31 \tTherefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way,
\tAnd be filled to the full with their own fancies.
32 \tFor the turning away of the simple will slay them,
\tAnd the complacency of fools will destroy them;
33 \tBut whoever listens to me will dwell safely,
\tAnd will be secure, without fear of evil.”

This Scripture above teaches many things about God's desire to redeem those who are lost. He is not willing that any should perish, yet the majority will not turn at His rebuke. And thus God gives them over to their own imaginations.

The result is this...
31 \tTherefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way,
\tAnd be filled to the full with their own fancies.

And why did God give them over?

9 \tBecause they hated knowledge
\tAnd did not choose the fear of the LORD,
30 \tThey would have none of my counsel
\tAnd despised my every rebuke.

But in every generation this promise is given...
Proverbs 1:

33 \tBut whoever listens to me will dwell safely,
\tAnd will be secure, without fear of evil.”

Job 33:
24 \tThen He is gracious to him, and says,
\t“Deliver him from going down to the Pit;
\tI have found a ransom’;
25 \tHis flesh shall be young like a child’s,
\tHe shall return to the days of his youth.
26 \tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,
\tHe shall see His face with joy,
\tFor He restores to man His righteousness.
27 \tThen he looks at men and says,
\t“I have sinned, and perverted what was right,
\tAnd it did not profit me.’
28 \tHe will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit,
\tAnd his life shall see the light.
29 \t“Behold, God works all these things,
\tTwice, in fact, three times with a man,
30 \tTo bring back his soul from the Pit,
\tThat he may be enlightened with the light of life.

Job 36:
7 \tHe does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous;
\tBut they are on the throne with kings,
\tFor He has seated them forever,
\tAnd they are exalted.
8 \tAnd if they are bound in fetters,
\tHeld in the cords of affliction,
9 \tThen He tells them their work and their transgressions—
\tThat they have acted defiantly.
10 \tHe also opens their ear to instruction,
\tAnd commands that they turn from iniquity.
11 \tIf they obey and serve Him,
\tThey shall spend their days in prosperity,
\tAnd their years in pleasures.
12 \tBut if they do not obey,
\tThey shall perish by the sword,
\tAnd they shall die without knowledge.
13 \t“But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath;
\tThey do not cry for help when He binds them.
14 \tThey die in youth,
\tAnd their life ends among the perverted persons.

The Scriptures are complete without error...it is man who must submit to God and His Word through the Holy Spirit. The word of God is able to divide the soul from the spirit of man, are we willing to allow the Scripture free reign to do so....to show us our vain imaginations and then to reveal the truth which is perfect...

In Christ
Jeff

A
andres

"I have wondered; if Calvinism is the Gospel as they posit, then why isn't the five points of Calvinism ever clearly and distinctly evangelized to the lost. Why is it that they can't seem to be up-front and franked about Calvinism, and on the bases of Calvin's five points call men and women to faith in Christ? Why is it that all who become Calvinist only do so after they have been saved if Calvinism is the Gospel? "---


--There was a time when this (Calvinism)was preached. There was a time in Germany and England in the 16th century..when the Doctrines of Grace stood against the Catholic Church..When the depravity of men, the Sovereignty of God, The finished Work of Christ for his bride, and the faith that men must have, were proclaimed. eventhough their very lives were at risk, and many persihed by the sword, they continued to preached the Doctines of Grace leading to the salvation of many.
There was a time in the 18 century in America during the great revivals when this "Calvinism" was preached, where men who were not ashamed to lift up the Just Judgements of God , and His Son's wonderful work for HIs Church.. Where men preached the Hard things of God unafraid of the public sentiment, but all they cared for was the Glory of God. which lead to salvation of thousands.
--Then in the mid 19th century Preachers begin to uplift the Sovereignty of man..and what man was capable of doing so the preaching became very man-centered..
---bring us to the 20th and 21century where the gospel is now about how God can help man become a better person,becuase after all man is not that bad, If only the preacher can somehow tantalize man's senses,so that he can make a decsion for Christ. This type of Christianity has left Europe and North America dead...

--- we need to come back to Christianity,
come back to The Justice and Righteousness of God.. The complete deadness of Mankind due to sin.. The absolute power of the Spirit to revive men.. The call on men to repent and Believe. The Finished work of Christ for His Church..--This type of Christianity(not that there is any other type) made a difference in a sinners heart---
-----My friend this used to be rule but today it is the exception .. People use to be saved and still are being saved under this kind of preaching for centuries and still today and before my eyes.
listen, The way you pray to God for the salvation of the Lost, my Friend, is closer to God's actual Character then your theology about Him.
andy

C
ChrisJD

Hi again everyone.


Up until recently I have been attending an Orthodox Presbyterian Congregation. The members of the congregation were all very nice and I spent alot of time praying along with those that attended the weekly prayer meetings.

I remember how sometimes though, when we would pray for others to believe in Christ, that some would ask this, [i]if it was God's will[/i].


Many things are being preached today.

Some are out handing tracks to people that ask them if God loves them.


Others are out telling people that God is only saving the Jews.


The Bible says that those that are sent by God speak the words of God, because God does not give them the Spirit by measure.

C
Christinyou

Paul gives the only gospel that fulfills the Word of God in Col 1. Not Calvin or Armenius or any other Gospel.

Pauls final Gospel is "Christ in you the hope of Glory", A new Person in you, Christ Jesus our new life, "It is no longer I who live", Gal 2: 20, this Life I now live I live by the Faith of the Son of God. No other gospel given, but Pauls, "my Gospel, to fulfill the Word of God."

Which is Christ in you: Phillip

D
Danielcourtney

I have to agree with the brother that started this post. Calvinism is out right heresy. The very foundations of calvinism are destroyed in the first book of the Bible and the 3rd chapter in the scripture. Calvinism accuses God of tempting man with evil. All through the Old and New Testaments God is pleading with men to turn from sin and turn to Him. God is a holy, righteous, and personal God. He isn't a cosmic chess player who created people just to have fun and use us as pawns in His cosmic game. From my simple understanding of scripture God made man to subdue the earth(which included destroying the kingdom of Satan) but man gave the authority God gave him as a son of God over to the Satan. Jesus came to restore the order God had planned and took the "Keys" back from Satan when He laid His life down and defeated death by rising Himself from the grave. Now Jesus (The Last Adam) hands those "Keys" to His church. If we would only take them by true faith. According to the Bible we have been given great authority and responsibilty, which men for the most part have not taken seriously. Calvinisn blames God for everything. The church and (all of the human race for that matter) will never be what we are called to be until we stop blaming God for everything and take responsibilty. Remember in Genesis 3 who Adam tried to blame for his sin. "The woman whom YOU gave me." I don't refute the fact fact that there have been many moves of God that were brought through men that were Calvinists, but there have also been many moves of God through men who were directly apposed to Calvin's teachings. Results are not always a good indicator of correct doctrine. If results were a good indictor then we would expect that Jesus (The One who surely had correct doctrine) would have had the entire nation of isreal falling on their faces before God. The only measure of correct doctrine is the Bible and I mean the whole Bible not just a few select passages of scripture. I believe it was A.W. Tozer who said "Read the Bible in light of the Bible".

C
crsschk

I have to agree with the brother that started this post. Calvinism is out right heresy.

Is it now?

I lost a whole reply that was partially in response to Jim's "consistent Calvinism" ...

The gist of it this ... Think how easy it is to lump a Spurgeon, a Mueller, Newton, Mathew Henry, even a contemporary such as Paul Washer into this convenient stew and never once think of the possibility that you are misrepresenting them. That ought to give you and anyone pause to consider at the least.

I am neither of a mindset of one or the other of these constructs, but to watch these misrepresentations go on unchecked ... there is a certain flippancy and arrogance that is summed up in that old adage about attacking that which you do not fully understand. There are as many varieties in "Calvinism" as there are "Calvinists" - from the moderate to the 'hyper'... From a Newton who grasped the differences and yet was still able to bridge the camps while maintaining his particular [i]Calvinism[/i].

There is a book mentioned here earlier if anyone is up to the challenge, but I am more convinced that some prefer argument over understanding.

John Pipers biographical series is another wonderful extrapolation of many of these men, was just listening to it again over the weekend.

Bottom line, if you are going to do this please get your facts straight and do not put words into their mouths in place of them.

P
PaulWest

The only measure of correct doctrine is the Bible and I mean the whole Bible not just a few select passages of scripture.

Amen, and this is exactly how scores of well-meaning men, genuinely saved and smarter and better than you or I have come to their conclusions, be it for Arminianism or Calvinsim. I am under the impression that so much of our criticism stems from hasty misunderstandings of each other's beliefs. It's amazing what can happen if you really just sit down and unbiasedly open your heart to God regarding these terse theological landmines. I heard it for years that Finney was the enemy, that Wesley was the enemy, that Calvinism is heresy, ad nauseum. Instead of embracing our allies in the fight against darkness, we have broken off and waged war with each other. Brethren, this is nothing more than spiritual fratricide. If God has enlisted a man to fight, who then am I to question his enlistment choices? If the power of God is behind a certain Christian belief system - though it may wear a slightly different uniform from the one I'm wearing - who then am I to reject a resource which my Captain has sanctioned as needful? Oh brethren, I pay we can see this. Though our uniforms may be different in certain areas, indeed we are all branded with the same unit patch over our hearts and sleeves and we all use the same armor and weaponry.

Have you heard the story of when the Nazi troops invaded the Ukraine? Stalin ordered the civilian villagers to put on Russian army uniforms and then advanced them out unarmed to meet the Germans. Of course, the villagers were instantly decimated, mowed down by machine guns and mortars. The Germans thought the villagers were enemy soldiers moving on the aggressive. Stalin's idea was to get the Germans to deplete all their ammo on a decoy army so that when the [i]real[/i] Russian army (which was advancing behind the villagers) reached them, they would be fatigued and spent.

I sometimes think we fall for the same ploy.

Brother Paul

E
elected

Quote:

I heard it for years that Finney was the enemy, that Wesley was the enemy, that Calvinism is heresy, ad nauseum. Instead of embracing our allies in the fight against darkness, we have broken off and waged war with each other.

That's so true. One thing i really dont grasp, if someone is a spiritual & mature christian, how can he come to such wrong conclusions as to call men of God heretics be they calvinists or arminians ? Paul said to test the spirits if they were from God, and who can deny the godliness and sanctity of christians like David Brainerd, Robert Murrey M'Cheyne or John Fletcher and Charles Finney? Oh yeah, it will be hard to find a dark spot in their character, and since we are discoussing theology, im sure that they hold on to some nonessessial errors and i can prove it to you from bible if it was nessecary.

In our narrowness of doctrine and biased interpretation of scriptures that brings us to bshallow conclusions to call heretics men of God who were very orthodox in the gosple and the apostolic creed.

I have learned one thing from my experience that whatever christian school of thought you belong to, you will never exhaust the truths of the scriptures or the infinite riches of Jesus Christ. From the Reformation till now, God has been rediscovering the doctrines of justificaion by faith, election by grace,sanctification by faith,baptism with the Holy Ghost( or filling with Holy Spirit),the 2nd comming of Christ, the restoration of supernatural gifts ect.

Despite so much advance in bible knowledge recovered from different denominations and men of God, many of us still hold firm to the conviction that my school of thought or my theological system is the best. Well, there is no perfect theological system or school of thought that i am aware of, tha can exhaust the mysteries of the gosple or the doctrines of Scriptures. God and his Word are not bound by methods or systems, the truth of God is the same yesterday, today and forever. God's principles never change.

Gods judgments our past finding out and who can understand his ways? His attributes or perfetions we will never grasp completly with a finite mind its impossible. If you are a spiritual man you will have the mind of Christ but you will not know all the mysteries of the gosple.

My point is that we need to see the whole picture of the bible and not to over emphasize one truth to the neglect of another. Im not a theologian or man of great spiritual understanding but one thing i know that the greates thing is LOVE. It is love the fruit of the Spirit that makes us Christ like and enlarges our hearts to fellowship with our brothers and sisters of different convictions but who love and believe the same Jesus that we do.

You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free, note it does not say you shall know the doctrine and the doctrine shall make you free. Truth is a Person, truth is Jesus not an orthodox idea not a theological system. You can't put God in a box, may be in you mind you may have unware "limited" Him but in reality he lives in unapproachable light.

We can't exhaust his knowledge but we can know by experience his love in Christ. Bottom live we need much charity in our theological convictions.
As long as you believe and hold firm to the gosple of Jesus Christ according to the scriptures you are my bro & sis, a member of the organic body of Christ. What we lack more than anything is HUMILITY in our heart, one of the reasons why we have so many devisions & denominations in our midts is PRIDE and PREJUDICE.

You can have amasing revelations from God and his Word but remember if thats the case you need sometimes like Paul a thorn in the flesh to keep you humble. It was Paul who said, "knowledge puffs you up but love builds ou up" and i think you knew a big deal about God.

Blessings,

Redi


C
ceedub

Very well said (PaulWest). You're a gifted communicator no doubt.

Is it safe to say that we all, as christians, are either too hasty at times, or have trouble discerning a 'Ukraine citizen' from a wolf in our midst?

Maybe that would be a good post to go along with the 'divisive debate' thread.

What do you do when soldiers of the 'enemy uniform' or a different uniform are marching towards you? Shoot first and avoid a percieved pending disaster, embrace them without conflict or find a way to know their true intent and position?

any words from Paul or crsschk?

P
PaulWest

What do you do when soldiers of the 'enemy uniform' or a different uniform are marching towards you? Shoot first and avoid a percieved pending disaster, embrace them without conflict or find a way to know their true intent and position?

Great thought. If you are right with God, the Holy Spirit will give you discernment in these matters. God is our protector, our shield, our weapon, our intelligence, our radar, our sonar. All we have - our entire life - is in Christ, if we have learnt the secret of abiding. Jesus Christ, the Captain of our Salvation, never sends His soldiers into unknown territory, and never compels His troops to engage an enemy that He Himself hasn't first identified as genuine.

Much of the camp fighting here is caused by the breaking of rank. We get ideas in our heads from the influence of other AWOL "worldy entangled" soldiers, and in our zeal, we join-up to fight a rogue cause. Ammo is spent on unlawful tagets. But there are no commendation metals for shooting a bullseye through friendly fire. Once we break rank and train our own sights on whom we perceive as enemies, God ceases to honor our campaigns with His divine authority and unction. That is why you've never read an unction-filled rebuke to either Calvinism and Arminianism in these forums. All they do is engender strife, ill-feelings, grudges, and end up causing the thread to be locked. When will we learn?

But the brother or sister who has been humbled and broken and made to focus on their own walk and the contents of their own hearts will quickly depart from these futile AWOL campaigns and join again the ranks that are beneath the authority and blessing of their Captain. This is what I strive to do in these forums with all my heart, and I believe God is pleased when soldiers under the same flag can break bread in peace despite their differences in uniform. Yes, we have a foe, but it is not Finney or John Wesley or Charles Spurgeon, or the Puritans. It is not Calvin or Arminius. These guys are on [i]our[/i] side, they are troops in other attachments, just like Australia and Britian are joined with the US in Afghanistan to fight the Taliban. If you are a US soldier, don't worry about the details of your commrade's unform, or his strange accent or what calibre of bullet his machine gun fires. [i]You[/i] fight the good fight of faith beneath the coalition Christ has placed you, and thank God for the dear brother who has your back in the foxhole.

Brother Paul

H
hmmhmm

An older brother i know shared in one meeting he had attended an "Israel-conference" where there where all sorts off denominations and different doctrinal churches attending, some who would never hold a meeting together or have fellowship because their doctrine is so different, but what God said to him personally was, how come you all can unite in Israels name? and not in Jesus name?

and i thought it is worth pondering, the more correct doctrine we have or believe we have, the more patience we should have towards those we think are wrong in their doctrine, and as calling something heresy is just to flippant these days, it is a very serious accusation, to say arminians are heretics or arminian based doctrines are heresy or reformed doctrines heresy or those who hold them are heretics is very serious. Some may be persuaded it is so, but for me it is accusing the brethren to be against Gods cause, to be his enemies.

No doubt some calvinist could be in heresy going to far, as some arminian can go to far. For me it goes back and forth, some weeks mans free will is so clear to me and i marvel someone even can doubt it, other times Gods sovereignty is so strong and near to me i marvel that man can not even take credit for one single heartbeat or one breath, so to speak.

The dangers today i dont think is calvinism or arminianism, even tho some aspects from both camps to me can "evolve" to dangerous things, there are misconceptions and misunderstandings from both sides, about Gods word about practice etc etc.

What i believe to be a healthy brother or sister is one who believes in the rule of love, upwards and horizontally and believe all is of faith and repentance is the right way to come to God, one who loves to fellowship with other Gods children, one who holds up the word of God as their map to heaven and rule for their life. Who desires in all things ,be it home life or ministry to be guided by the spirit.

If such a brother calls himself a reformed man or a arminian or a baptist a pentecostal or whatever name he choses to go by i can fellowship with him. Myself prefer not to label me anything except a christian, mostly due to the enormous misunderstanding and explanation one has to talk and explain when saying I am a pentecostal" etc, there are so much today that say i am this and i am that that has created a "stamp" on all who might say they belong in a certain group. So personally i have found i am a christian or a follower of Jesus to be the best answer.


Y
yoadam

Hi everybody. I appreciate a lot of what has been said on this page.

I just want to clarify some things-- not in my defense, (as I said, I already stepped out of the debate within this discussion...), but only for the sake of clarity to those who may have read some of my posts earlier in this discussion...

When I was defending Calvinism earlier throughout the pages of this discussion, I did call Arminianism "heresy", but I did not mean by that as if it is "damnable heresy", but rather, it is error. I believe it is a grievous error, and idolatrous at its roots, but not damnable heresy.

And also as of late, I have learned that not all Arminians today are in fact "classical Arminians" and there is such a thing as "semi-Arminianism", which I believe is inconsistent and logically leads to classical Arminianism, but once again-- I am done debating in this thread. So, I am sorry to all of those who may be holding to some variant of Arminianism which does not exactly agree with Arminius himself or the classical Arminianism of the Remonstrants-- I am sorry for lumping you all together into one bunch.

Adam.

C
crsschk

I am under the impression that so much of our criticism stems from hasty misunderstandings of each other's beliefs.

I have learned one thing from my experience that whatever christian school of thought you belong to, you will never exhaust the truths of the scriptures or the infinite riches of Jesus Christ.

Yes, we have a foe, but it is not Finney or John Wesley or Charles Spurgeon, or the Puritans. It is not Calvin or Arminius. These guys are on our side ...

And here, so tremendously well put ...

[i]"For me it goes back and forth, some weeks mans free will is so clear to me and i marvel someone even can doubt it, other times Gods sovereignty is so strong and near to me i marvel that man can not even take credit for one single heartbeat or one breath, so to speak."[/i]

What a grand statement, well worth musing on. Somehow I think the crux of the whole argument is borne out of this - [i]Choose a side[/i] is the mantra that is forced upon us, either from the outside or in some way that quite alludes me ... just why it must be so. Over the years here I have attempted to champion that aspect of Almighty God that remains His prerogative, namely those mysteries that all our puny minds combined have not been able to answer sufficiently and hence has the battle raged all these centuries. But brother, you hit on it so squarely ... Read a Finney or Wesley and the emphasis is one way, from [i]that[/i] perspective - Read Spurgeon or Owens or Henry and it's another. But I just do not know how anyone who is truly honest cannot see where these things are not so easily divided into neat and tidy constructs. Is not the very argument itself a continuum of "What about ____"?

In the response that I lost yesterday I took the comment on Acts 13:48 and as is my usual first instinct, wanted to know if that which was been leveled at it (supposedly by Calvinist's) was anywhere near the truth - This jumped out from Mathew Henry in part from the context that it falls under;

[b]Act 13:42-52[/b] -
The design of this story being to vindicate the apostles, especially Paul (as he doth himself at large, Rom. 11), from the reflections of the Jews upon him for preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, it is here observed that he proceeded therein with all the caution imaginable, and upon due consideration, of which we have here an instance.

I. There were some of the Jews that were so incensed against the preaching of the gospel, not to the Gentiles, but to themselves, that they would not bear to hear it, but went out of the synagogue while Paul was preaching (Act_13:42), in contempt of him and his doctrine, and to the disturbance of the congregation. It is probable they whispered among themselves, exciting one another to it, and did it by consent. Now this bespoke, 1. An open infidelity, as plain a profession of unbelief as coming to hear the gospel is of faith. They thus publicly avowed their contempt of Christ and of his doctrine and law, were not ashamed, neither could they blush; and they thus endeavoured to beget prejudices in the minds of others against the gospel; they went out to draw others to follow their pernicious ways. 2. An obstinate infidelity. [b][i]They went out of the synagogue, not only to show that they did not believe the gospel, but because they were resolved they would not, and therefore got out of the hearing of those things that had a tendency to convince them. They stopped their ears like the deaf adder. Justly therefore was the gospel taken from them, when they first took themselves from it, and turned themselves out of the church before they were turned out of it. For it is certainly true that God never leaves any till they first leave him.[/i][/b]

This last part that is highlighted, at the time also drew similarities to the other ongoing feud, namely OSAS - But again, this is not anywhere near the fatalism or the mathematical equivalent that A + B therefore [i]must[/i] equal C or that it must necessarily [i]lead[/i] to that conclusion. It is a misrepresentation.

The other thought towards much of this is the 'Straw-man' or round peg in a square hole argument. I think you can just as well take brother hmmmm's statement above and apply it directly to 'eternal security', personally I believe it is very much the wrong question, rather a statement concealed as a question, that one is 'once saved always saved'. Again the endless rounds of 'what abouts' come into play and as brother Paul stated we are once again squaring off, dividing off into this camp or that. It depends on the frame work, it depends on the context, it depends on any number of things, but if the question\\statement wasn't stated the way it is in the first place ...

Knowing the tricksters of our own minds that we are, the hardest thing to do sometimes is to divorce what we think we have so rightly understood, even long enough to not look through things without our tainted glasses. We approach with our minds made up, our suspicions intact and then proceed to cherry pick our way through, finding the [i]"Aha's!"[/i] that we expect, the mind is already geared to it. But if we took Zac Poonens approach to the scriptures, extended it to those men of God who have gone before us and read them as if for the very first time, [i]unprejudiced[/i] we would be more than humbled time and again by what many if not most of them really held to, meant and more importantly [i]did not mean[/i] despite the extrapolations of some that would rather paint them into a theological corner than simply try and understand where they are coming from.

There are endless surprises out there due to these misrepresentations. One of these days I hope to live up to an attempt to take excerpts from a variety of these men on either side of the coin, put them all together intentionally [i]unnamed[/i] at the onset and see if it doesn't surprise more than a few at the end to find ... '[i]That was "Finney?"[/i] or "[i]Brook's said that?[/i]" -

Or, you could always read the book mentioned about Newton earlier, it contains much of the same.

It was Spurgeon after all that said "No one has a corner on the truth."

P
PaulWest

But if we took Zac Poonens approach to the scriptures, extended it to those men of God who have gone before us and read them as if for the very first time, unprejudiced we would be more than humbled time and again by what many if not most of them really held to, meant and more importantly did not mean despite the extrapolations of some that would rather paint them into a theological corner than simply try and understand where they are coming from.

Amen, brother. This is so true and wise.

When Zac Poonen was in Texas a few weeks ago I had the opportunity to speak with him at some length. He knows about SermonIndex and the forum conversations and the different posts that touch upon different subjects. He also knew that Mike and I were moderators in the forum. One of the questions he asked me was what we did as moderators.

What immediately came to mind was censoring the infamous Cal/Arm warfare threads. I told him the vast majority of them have to get shut down because of the spirit that pervades them. I told him that SI was interdenominational and balanced and that we were blessed to have men of God's sermons from all doctrinal persuasions present on the site. Unfortunately however, from time time, people come on the site with doctrinal agenda and seek out polemic warfare in a no-fire zone. I told him about the strife and endless debate these threads bring to the whole community.

I remember him looking down and saying something like, "I don't bother myself with any of that.."

The greatest men of God have learnt this lesson, they have learnt to extricate themselves from the briar patch of doctrinal divisiveness and just preach the living Word of God. And when they do, the hearts of their hearers burn within as they yearn for victory over sin, regardless of their theology or denomination. The theme for the conference was, "A Heavenly Life on Earth", and not once did Cal/Arm come into play.

We've had enough of these threads, discussing these endless topics and debates that engender nothing but further questions and unrest in the participants. The title alone of this thread is bothersome. Please leave these topics at the door of this forum before you come in; please wipe the contamination off your shoes before you enter in here.

This thread is closed, and any other threads that promote a furtherance of this ancient debate will be subsequently closed as well.

Thank you and God bless.

Brother Paul

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