Was Judas a true believer at one point?

Luke 9:1 states that Jesus called his Twelve Disciples together and gave them authority over all devils (demons) and to cure diseases. Judas was one of the twelve. Jesus, the Son of God, gave Judas authority over demons, which means Judas must have been a yielded vessel. From this, we know Judas at one point was a true believer and follower of Christ. God CAN NOT give that type of authority and power to an unbeliever!

Matthew Chapter 10:1-8 (Cross Reference For Luke 9:1)

* 1.
* He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

* 2.
* These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;

* 3.
* Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;

* 4.
* Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

* 5.
* These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.

* 6.
* Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

* 7.
* As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.'

* 8.
* Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

Judas did all of these along with the other disciples! He was a true follower of Christ

I agree bro.

Judas was a disciple of the Lord and therefore he left ft all to follow Jesus (Lk. 14:33). He picked up his cross (Lk. 14:27) and even loved Jesus more then his own family (Lk. 14:26). Judas was picked by Jesus specifically to cast out devils, heal, and preach (Matt 10:1-27). Judas was a friend Jesus trusted (Ps. 41:9; Jn 13:18), so Judas kept the money (Jn. 12:6; 13:29). Jesus told Judas that He was shedding His blood for him (Lk. 22:14-20), and previously said that His name was written in the Lambs book of life (Lk. 10:20). Jesus even said that Judas was one of His sheep (Matt. 10:1-4, 16), who received His truth (Matt 10:1-4, 8), who’s Father was God (Matt 10:1-4, 20), who even had a throne in Heaven upon which he would judge Israel (Matt. 19:28; Lk. 22:30). But then later we see that Judas became a devil (Jn. 6:70) and therefore it would have been better for him to have never been born (Mk. 14:21). He even began to steal money from the group (Jn. 12:6). Judas fell from his apostleship by his transgression (Acts 1:25) because He failed to do what Jesus picked him for. His name was blotted out of the book of life (Ex. 23:33; Rev. 3:5). (Jesse Morrell)

"For both Saul and Judas were once good...Sometimes they are at first good, who afterward become and continue evil; and for this respect they are said to be written in the book of life, and blotted out of it." (St. Ambrose)

John 6:70... Jesus says one of the Twelve is a devil referring to Judas. Strange way to refer to a child of God if he were one. Further, in that same chapter John says some of the disciples departed not to return because of Jesus' hard teaching and it says in reference to those departing "disciples" that Jesus knew which of them did not really believe. Disciple does not equal believer in this context and in the same versus, Judas is called a devil before he ever chooses to betray Jesus. Does this not settle this issue?

I agree.

Was Judas a believer?
1st what makes someone a beliver?

When Jesus asked Peter who they said he was, they gave alot of answers. When Jesus asked Peter he answered and gave the only true answer. Jesus then said only His Father could have revealed this to him.

Was Judas a beliver?
No.

One can't ignore

Mathew 7:22-23

whyme wrote:
John 6:70... Jesus says one of the Twelve is a devil referring to Judas. Strange way to refer to a child of God if he were one. Further, in that same chapter John says some of the disciples departed not to return because of Jesus' hard teaching and it says in reference to those departing "disciples" that Jesus knew which of them did not really believe. Disciple does not equal believer in this context and in the same versus, Judas is called a devil before he ever chooses to betray Jesus. Does this not settle this issue?

Whyme, let's also remember that Jesus looked at Peter, and said " Matt 16:33 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, [b]Satan[/b]: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. If Judas is referred to as "a" devil, and Peter is referred to as "Satan (the devil)" which is worse? Some disciples did depart Jesus because of his hard teachings, but Judas was not amongst that set that left in John 6. Actually, Judas did believe and was sure who Christ was:
John 6:67 67 Then said Jesus unto the [b]twelve, Will ye also go away[/b]? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 [b]And WE believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.[/b]

WE being all 12 disciples, had that testimony. I would also add, that Jesus once said to Peter :

Matt 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Apparently, since ALL 12 of them believed and were sure that Christ was the Son of God-then apparently God the Father would have revealed this to all of them individually as well, and not just Peter. All 12 cast out devils, and Jesus said that Satan CANNOT cast out Satan-Judas was more than a disciple, he was an Apostle (who Apostasized)-his lost his Bishop-prick as Acts 1 states.

The role of Judas was prophesied in the OT as the betrayer, a necessary ingredient along with Christ's entrance on the donkey into Jerusalem and the subsequent rejection by His people in order to fulfill the scriptures.

Have you ever thought about which is worse: publically abandoning and then denying Christ with an pejorative oath like Peter, or secretly stealing some sheckels from a bag?

Why was the moneybag-thief chosen by God to be the accursed betrayer of the Son of Man and the cowardly denyer the "rock" Christ would build His church upon? This really takes on grand proportion as we try to comprehend that God knew about, forsaw, and even wrote about (so we would know He knew) hundreds of years before these things that came to pass. In fact, they were all laid out even before the foundations of the world.

Later we see that another thief (however, this one hung on the cross) would be the first confirmed salvation we read of in the NT.

it seems that scripture defines Peter's cowardice in a much different light than Judas' heart of depravity. Scripture indicates to me that Peter was zealous for the Lord and Judas was zealous for himself. And this in spite of the individual acts and specific behaviors of each man.

Now, if Peter afterward relished in doing the will of God, we know this was also given to him by God, for Paul states that "it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

It is my own conjecture that God raised up Judas as a Potter would raise a lump of clay for either a vessel of honor or of dishonor. Whether or not he was born-again and lost his salvation or was never born-again is really a moot case as far as I'm concerned. If one is going to judge his independant motives by his actions, I think a strong nullifying cause can be made from similarly abhorrent accounts in others as well.

I read about Peter, I read about Judas and Thomas and Ananias and Saul of Tarsus and I'm ready to think lofty thoughts about myself in defense. God always tells me to put my hand underneath my bosom in such instances and then pull it out and tell Him what I see. It always comes back white and leperous and I am reminded once again that without the grace of God I am Judas the Betrayer, I am Thomas the Doubter, I am Saul the Self-Rightous Murderer, I am Peter the Coward, and I am Ananias the Greedy Liar. Without the on-going grace of God and the ever-cleansing fountain of blood I am all of these and more.

Btw, I read your PM. Thank you brother.

Brother Paul

Peter was never called a 'devil' nor do I believe his denial was tantamount to Judas' betrayal.

Like Peter, David saw right away his sin and was distraught at the offense to his Lord.

Brother Paul

When David and Peter realized their sin they were immediately remorseful

Jesus said 'ONE' of you is a devil... not all of you.

I'm no better than anyone else and never implied that in my posts but I do sense that implication here. I thank God for His mercy upon me. But I also have to have wisdom in understanding of the fall of those in the Bible, I'm not sure how that's judgmental

God bless!

Brother Paul

2 Sam 12:12 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." (not a clear indication of remorse here but an immediate realization... and subsequent scripture below puts David's heart in a more contextual light)

Brother, I have to repeat: This confession came from David only [i]after Nathan confronted him.[/i] It was not a response that came about immediately after he sinned. As a matter of fact, a good case can be brought as to God sending Natahan [i]because[/i] David didn't feel any need to repent. Why else send the prophet? God sends prophets for emergency situations, to paraphrase Tozer. "Conscience-stricken" is the word in 2 Samuel 24, and like you said, Judas too felt this same compunction, when he threw the pieces of silver down and went and hanged himself, but whereas Peter turned his remorse into repentance, Judas took his life in the throes of remorse. That Judas failed to address his remorse as "sinning against God" per se really makes no difference to me; he knew Jesus was innocent...and no one can acknowledge the diety of Christ like Satan, for he is an eye-witness to His glory. Whether or not Judas knew Christ was divine I think is irrelevant. I tend to think he didn't, because the opposite, to me, is unthinkable. But I am reminded that angels with the knowledge of glory also sinned and committed treason.

Both men experienced profound remorse for sinning against God, but whereas one was saved, the other was lost. One wept bitterly and one hanged himself. Both were implicated with Satan at one point, but one was saved and one was lost. Both were disciples of Christ, but one was foretold to betray the Son of man, and the other wasn't.

Now, the million dollar question is this: in light of scripture, which event brought about which - did the betrayal bring about Judas, or did Judas bring about the betrayal?

One distinction I can see between Peter and Judas is what Jesus said to Peter prior to his betrayal. In that statement, Jesus said he prayed that Peter's faith would not fail which Jesus did not pray in the case of Judas. In Peter's case some would argue that by virtue of the betrayal, Jesus' prayer for Peter's faith not to fail was answered in the negative. I say otherwise. I think Peter failed in the betrayal, Peter's faith however did not fail because after Peter's failure, his faith overcame his own personal unbelief when he turned ultimately to become a leader of the church and a comfort to the brethern who also fail due to unbelief. Judas had no such prayer for him and in fact never turned in true repentance and faith and I argue never had it in the first place.

ccrider,

I believe I read somewhere that the time between David's Bathsheba adultery and the time of Nathan's rebuke was at least a year. I would gather that to suggest David's remorse was immediate would be overstating the revealed case.

agree whyme which is why I clarified later on from the above quote that my point was that they were remorseful after they REALIZED THEIR SIN.

Your last post to me seemed a bit agitated in tenor. I've noticed the CAPS coming into play here, and I don't continue discussions with people shouting at me. If we can't hatch this out calmly and rationally, we should just walk away. I think this is becoming a contest on who can be right and have the last word anyhow.

Thank you for the discussion. Praise God our salvation is not contingent on knowledge of Judas' salvific condition. I would rather discontinue this here and now just agree to disagree. The topic at hand is not worth losing our cool.

Brother Paul

Was Judas a true believer at one point?

What do you exactly mean when you say 'true believer'? Do you mean if he had been born again, or had been one of the elect?

My intentions were sincere though

No ill feelings toward you at all; only at myself for not handling our discussion more adroitly and lucidly. The real kicker is that I feel we agree on more than we realize here. It's the medium by which we are expressing our thoughts that obfuscates the expression. Were we face-to-face, there would be no discrepancies - only warm accord and brotherly fellowship. This I can assure you.

God bless you richly,

Paul

Paul & ccrider,

I’m glad you both are good brethren who can keep peace between one another even in the midst of some slight misunderstanding in some of your posts.

Please allow me to comment and say that I enjoyed the truth that you both saw in the experiences of those in the bible who fell into sin but there is something I need clarification on.

Ccrider I think I understand what you were trying to say, and if I did, then I am in total agreement with you. The main difference in Peter (also David) and in Judas is the heart being attached to the Lord in the case of Peter, and there being no real heart experience to the Lord in the situation of Judas, because he was all for himself and not having an affection for the Lord Jesus.

Judas was not in a saving relation with the Lord because he had never repented in the first place. Now Peter did love the Lord but fell into denying the Lord because of his own weakness. The one thing that many fail to mention is that Peter had all intentions to be true to the Lord but went about it the wrong way and therefore received no help from the Lord in his error. He was ready to fight for the Lord and did cut off a soldiers ear but the Lord heal him and also reprimanded Peter. Judas was a devil and a thief and betrayed the Lord for money. Peter loved the Lord as best at the time that he knew how and would not have betrayed the Lord for money (if that is what you were implying Paul from your writings, I must disagree here).

Paul you brought out some very good points but I hope you are not saying that the difference in Peter and Judas is that the Lord was not willing to save Judas but he was willing to save Peter. The Lord was willing to save Peter because he would be saved and the Lord did not save Judas only because he would not be saved not because he could not be saved. When Jesus said of Judas that it would have been better for him if he had never been born it is because of the path that he chose for himself.

I really think that what ccrider was trying to bring out was that Judas was responsible for his lost miserable condition and was trying to make it clear that the Lord was not responsible for his lost condition. The sad thing is that so many with one breath they want to praise God for their salvation, that they are so unworthy of (which is so true), but in the other breath they want to blame God for Judas and other lost people going to hell.

Blessings to you all!

I hope you are not saying that the difference in Peter and Judas is that the Lord was not willing to save Judas but he was willing to save Peter. The Lord was willing to save Peter because he would be saved and the Lord did not save Judas only because he would not be saved not because he could not be saved. When Jesus said of Judas that it would have been better for him if he had never been born it is because of the path that he chose for himself.

I really think that what ccrider was trying to bring out was that Judas was responsible for his lost miserable condition and was trying to make it clear that the Lord was not responsible for his lost condition.

they want to blame God for Judas and other lost people going to hell.

Either way, God is God and I am dust.

At the recent conferance held in Norway , speaker Zac Poonen mentioned something of interest, he mentioned the verse that says "Judas [i]became[/i] the traitor"

Luk 6:16 Judas of James, and Judas Iscariot, who also became betrayer;) YLT

And Poonens point was that Jesus spent his whole night in prayer, he never prayed all night for a healing, or for any other miracle, but this night was special, he was to select the foundation of the church, it would effect the whole purposes of God with his church from then and forward. It was His most critical decision. And Poonen pointed out it was his belief God does not play with man to decide wheter they will go to hell, but he foresaw and knew, but that when Jesus selected Judas he was a wholehearted man just like any of the others he selected. He became the betrayer, to become something we have to be something different from the start.

Not sure i captured all brother Zac said, but i thought it was more food for thought here.

Myself dont know, i have a problem with God "electing" someone with them having no what so ever thing to do with their eternal destiny, but i dont think this one we can fully understand how ever we look at it.

I think this what you said Paul:

If Judas' path was indeed "the path he chose for himself" (I'm not saying it wasn't), it must have been a path known by God that he would take before the world was created. This makes perfect sense, and it reconclies the theological dilemma

I think this at the moment is closest to my understanding of God and His ways. But maybe ill get more revelation further down the path.

Thanks to all who posted,

Knowing something ahead of time does not necessarily change destiny. Notice Jesus knew all things that should come upon Him but did not alter one bit in his destiny of pleasing his Father. Jesus is most awesome in how he followed the path of suffering for all men to save all those who would just believe in Him completely.

John 18:4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?

We must also realize that just because God knows everything does not mean that He can interfere with man’s choices in this life. God has said that He has set before us life and death; he wants us to choose life, but if we are intent on choosing death then God will finally have to let us.

Jesus wept over the city of Jerusalem because they would not come to him for everlasting life, for He can not save us if we will not cooperate with Him.

Blessings to all!

Christian,

Is this in one of the sermons you recently posted?

yes, i think it is this one, i have little time to check right now, but it is in the first 15 minutes of the message, if it is not let me know and ill search out the right one.

[url=http://ordetslys.no/poonen/audio/2009/090703-Bibelweekend.mp3]What God did for His first Son He will do for all His children[/url]

Be careful to compare a donkey talking to demons being cast out and the dead being raised. If Judas had this type of power given by Christ Himself, He had to be a believer otherwise it would be satan casting out satan. This is an impossibility!

No one has given me an example of someone who was an unbeliever that God gave authority and power over demons, raised the dead, healed every sickness! Still waiting!

No one has given me an example of someone who was an unbeliever that God gave authority and power over demons, raised the dead, healed every sickness! Still waiting!

Answer: Judas

whyme wrote:

No one has given me an example of someone who was an unbeliever that God gave authority and power over demons, raised the dead, healed every sickness! Still waiting!

Answer: Judas

[b]70\tJesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?[/b]-John 6:70

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Joh 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

when looking at these verses and seeing it has the word betray, we should remember scripture says he became the betrayer, he was not always a betrayer, so it is also possible he was not always a devil, the devil himself was once the most beautiful angel, in the same way there is a possibility Judas once was the most wholehearted follower of Jesus and became a devil.

Not sure, but there is a possibility.

hmmhmm wrote:
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Joh 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

when looking at these verses and seeing it has the word betray, we should remember scripture says he became the betrayer, he was not always a betrayer, so it is also possible he was not always a devil, the devil himself was once the most beautiful angel, in the same way there is a possibility Judas once was the most wholehearted follower of Jesus and became a devil.

Not sure, but there is a possibility.

impossible.

Jesus said in John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

This would have also applied Judas, had he been a "true believer."

Well then perhaps you may be thinking, "Judas was not "cast out", but snatched out by the devil?"

impossible.

Jesus said in John 10:28-29, "28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand."

Perhaps you may be thinking, "Yes, no [i]man[/i] can pluck him, but that does not mean the [i]devil[/i] cannot pluck him."

incorrect.

The word [i]man[/i] is actually not in the original greek, it is merely implied. For example, the ESV, the NASB, and the NKJV all translate the word "one". So "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29\tMy Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." (ESV)
So, no [i]man[/i] or even [i]no one[/i] can pluck-- not even the devil.

Well then perhaps you may be thinking, "Judas was not snatched out, but rather he himself 'jumped out' in rejecting his salvation."

impossible.

Jesus said in John 6:39-40, "39\tAnd this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40\tAnd this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

So we see Jesus loses none which the Father gives to Him, all that are given to Jesus by the Father will be raised up at the last day. Every one that believe on Jesus are raised up at the last day.

Also,
John 6:44, "44\tNo man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

So all who are drawn by the Father are raised up at the last day.

Maybe someone is wondering, "but does being raised up at the last day mean everlasting life?"

absolutely.

This is distinctly Johannine writing style and speaks clearly of eternal life. This is undeniably clear, as in verse 40,

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Praise the Lord that everlasting life is everlasting life indeed!

[b]16\tFor God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.[/b]

Now stop scaring the hell out of all the believers and rather teach the believers to look unto Christ, the author and finisher of our faith! (See, Heb. 12:2)

Hebrews 4:14-16,
14\tSeeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15\tFor we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16\tLet us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1 John 1:8-10,
8\tIf we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9\tIf we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10\tIf we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Please read [url=http://www.gracegems.org/24/Ryle_lord_our_righteousness.htm]THE LORD (JESUS) (IS) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.[/url] (J.C. Ryle Content)

Numbers 6:24-27,
"24\tThe LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
25\tThe LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
26\tThe LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
27\tAnd they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them."

dear brother, thank you for your reply, i knew all you wrote from earlier, some of the other brethren have same beliefs as you, also heard some other angles, some i agree on but some i do not, i find it inconsistent with much other scripture and what the sum of all Gods word teaches.

I have already answered and vented my thoughts about many of your objections earlier in another thread "can a born again christian lose his salvation" , so if you have the energy you can go through the first couple of pages and perhaps answer some of my thoughts? i read calvin, i read luther, i have read many reformed authors and listened to many preachers, some i have great respect for and like a lot, some of my favorite authors are reformed. But i see another picture in scripture, reformed theology to me is not the "fullness" of all scripture, just one side of the coin, and thus not "ALL" truth. And no one has of yet given me a explanation that would reconcile what you have written with hundred of other scriptures. Many have tried but either they have made those scriptures of less importance, or bent them or made them mean something else then what is clearly written.

If you have time and energy look at the other thread and if you can shed light to the concerns i have concerning once saved always saved you are welcome, but i reject that doctrine based on what Jesus said, and the Apostles taught. As long as we want to be saved we are eternally secure, once we forsake God by pursuing self, sin the world etc i am not sure such a believer is safe.

No one can pluck us out of Gods hand, not even satan, but God does not force you to remain, if you like jump out yourself you are most welcome to, that is what i see in scripture, The Lord did not force Judas or any other to follow him, if they wanted to leave they could have, one did, spiritually. But i am not saying these are my rock solid beliefs, i just think how you see it and many others are not exactly what scripture teaches, but if you care join the other thread and perhaps answer my questions, concerns, please do. I hope we can be graceful and humble as the Lord was. If we disagree, we can agree on that and be brothers who love one another, that is the mark of his church, not correctness of doctrine, but that we love one another.

Gods peace and grace

hmmhmm wrote:
...
No one can pluck us out of Gods hand, not even satan, but God does not force you to remain, if you like jump out yourself you are most welcome to, that is what i see in scripture, The Lord did not force Judas or any other to follow him, if they wanted to leave they could have, one did, spiritually. But i am not saying these are my rock solid beliefs, i just think how you see it and many others are not exactly what scripture teaches, but if you care join the other thread and perhaps answer my questions, concerns, please do. I hope we can be graceful and humble as the Lord was. If we disagree, we can agree on that and be brothers who love one another, that is the mark of his church, not correctness of doctrine, but that we love one another.

Gods peace and grace

I must restate what I said right before you,

John 6:44, "44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

[b]So all who are drawn by the Father are raised up to eternal life at the last day.[/b]

For the record, I strongly dislike the term, "once saved, always saved." It stinks of easy-believeism and false assurance. Let's go with "the final perseverance of the saints"-- or atleast "eternal security" please... :-)

As long as we want to be saved we are eternally secure, ...

...once we forsake God by pursuing self, sin the world etc i am not sure such a believer is safe.

Please, consider the verse, Philippians 2:12,
[b]12\tWherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.[/b]

Now, consider the very next verse, Philippians 2:13,[b]
[u]13\tFor it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.[/b][/u]

Do you see it? We do, in a sense, will it, but all the while IT IS GOD which works in us.

well, i believe no man can come to christ unless the Father draws him, where i might disagree with you is that he would only draw a few people he chose like a lottery so to speak, i speak as a fool now, hope you can bear with me. But i think it comes down to what we believe, if we believe there is the slightest possibility for a true born again believer to somehow end up lost, then it would be a possibility that judas once was a true follower of Christ, and if so it purpose to be in the word is not to scare us, nothing is, if we are believers and are scared of God we have not seen him as a father yet, so maybe Judas was a true believer maybe he was not, i do not hold to the eternal security doctrine, so i have a door open for the possibility, if you totally reject the possibility then i understand how you think etc. And in a case like this, with a handful of verses, among wich some are "dim" as to know exactly what they meen, it may be wise not to say definitely it is this way.

I think it was possible he once was a believer and later became a devil.

but i do not know :-)

i could give much more reasons, scriptures etc, but i have done so many times i lost count, if you are interested you have most of my concerns and scriptures that makes me doubt the osas doctrine you can find [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=29565&forum=36&94]in this thread the first couple of pages[/url] wont take you long to read my posts, not to long :-)

well, i believe no man can come to christ unless the Father draws him, where i might disagree with you is that he would only draw a few people he chose like a lottery so to speak

If so, then you must believe that every single person in the entire world will be raised up to eternal life on the last day.

As Jesus said in John 6, "44\tNo man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45\tIt is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

So we see that all who are drawn are raised up to eternal life on the last day.

Here, listen to James White, He is so much clearer than I am!

Secure in the Father and the Son

Jesus said, “Everyone whom the Father gives to Me shall come to Me, and the one coming to Me I will never cast out; because I have come from heaven not in order to do My will but the will of Him who sent Me; and this is the will of the one who sent Me: that of all which He has given Me from Him, I lose nothing but raise it up at the last day.” (John 6:37-39). Jesus presents the complete sovereignty of God in salvation. All that the Father gives to Jesus - everyone - will come to Him. The operative factor in answering the question of why some come and others, presented with the same opportunity, do not, is simply the nature of the Father’s choice. The Father "gives" persons to the Son - a gift of love, to be sure. When the Father gives to the Son a person, that person will come to Christ (as the one avenue to the Father). There is no question that if a person is so given to Christ (or, to use the terminology of verse 44, is so "drawn" by the Father) that he/she will come to Christ. This is the "Godward" side of salvation - absolute certainty and security. Yet, He says that they will "come to Me” which speaks of the human response - not that the human can change the decision of God - but that the response is there all the same. Man is not pictured simply as a “thing” that is bounced around like a ball, but rather a vastly important person who comes to Christ for salvation, all as the result of the gracious working of God in his/her life.

Jesus continues by stating that when one is so given to Him by the Father, and comes to Him, that one is secure in their relationship with Him He will never cast them out, The aorist subjunctive of strong denial makes it clear that rejection of one who seeks refuge in Christ is a complete and total impossibility. What words to a sinners heart! Those who come to Christ will find Him a loving Lord who will never cast out those who trust in Him!

Why will the Lord never cast out those who come to Him? Verse 38 continues the thought with the explanation - the Son has come to do the will of the Father. And what is the will of the Father? That “of all which He has given Me from Him I lose nothing hut raise it up at the last day.” Can we doubt that Christ will do what He promises? Will the Lord Jesus ever fail to do the Father’s will? Here is eternal security beyond dispute. But note that again all is pre-eminently balanced - the security of the person is based on two things - the will of the Father that none he lost, and secondly, the fact that those who are not lost are those who are given to the Son by the Father Himself. So, in reality, there is security in the Father (He gives us to Christ) and security in the Son (He always does the Father’s will).

The realization of the co-operation and interaction of the Father and the Son in the salvation of each individual Christian is an awesome thing! It is self-evident why so many soteriological systems cannot deal with eternal security - it is based on the understanding that salvation is completely the work of God! Man is the object of salvation, the object of God’s sovereign grace. The gospel is the message of grace, and grace is something given totally on the basis of God’s desire to give it. Such is terribly damaging to man’s “self-esteem” and to any concept of our being able to save ourselves or even to “help God along” in our being made righteous. We must realize that we come to God wholly unworthy of His love and grace, totally incapable of effecting even the beginning of His work in our hearts.

Once we rest ourselves in God’s provision of salvation, however, we see that our position in Him is one that is based upon the sovereign act of the Father in giving us to the Son, and in the eternal obedience of the Son to the Father in effecting our salvation! Can we possibly picture a more secure situation than this?

Do you believe that the Father draws everyone?

yes, he created all men, scripture says he died for all men, and scripture commands all men to repent, scripture says Jesus wept when men did not, seem just weird he would weep when he knew the father had not drawn them? or maybe he was out of the fathers will somehow? God did not those people would be saved and come to christ and yet Jesus wept? seem strange to me

If so, then you must believe that every single person in the entire world will be raised up to eternal life on the last day.

No i dont believe that, i believe most will go to hell on that last day, or that is my understanding of scripture.

I believe we are drawn, kept, and worked inside by God, who can boast? yet i know i chose God, and i know men have the ability to chose to love God or not. just as God can be love and wrath at the same time, so can mans will be free and god work in him. Also i do not think God can throw anyone in hell who never could do anything but sin, or have a chance to do anything about it. It is not in Gods character of what he has revealed of himself to me.

But i feel i have been discussing this long enough, i have answered all objections and my beliefs in the other thread, agree or disagree, to me it is what scripture says, i hope you excuse me for withdrawing, but i can not continue to talk these things anymore, God bless you

hmmhmm wrote:

Do you believe that the Father draws everyone?

yes, he created all men, scripture says he died for all men, and scripture commands all men to repent, scripture says Jesus wept when men did not, seem just weird he would weep when he knew the father had not drawn them? or maybe he was out of the fathers will somehow? God did not those people would be saved and come to christ and yet Jesus wept? seem strange to me

God CAN NOT give that type of authority and power to an unbeliever!

Judas did all of these along with the other disciples! He was a true follower of Christ

While the twelve was out Jesus was commissioning others. The power was is and always will be in Jesus name(authority) and it would seem that God for His own reasons will allow even the most ungodly to exercise powers that seem reserved for the children. It must be accepted that often times the Lord is responding to the seeker and not the suposed bringer of the what ever, healing/deliverence/mercy/etc...So I wouldn't get to hung up on the whole Judas thing, it'll just take away your peace and *zap* your joy away:)

You still did not give any support to a named individual in Scripture who was given God's power to cast out demons in His Name.

If I recall my scripture, there were some sons of Sceva that thought they could cast out demons in the Name of Paul's God, which resulted in some painful memories for them. Even the demons responded by saying, "We know who Jesus is, and we know who Paul is, but who are you?"

I believe no demon would leave a person directed by an unbeliever using God's name simply because that would make Satan's kingdom divided, which Jesus said could not stand. Even Satan knows better than that! I agree God's Word will not return void, but to cast out demons, raise the dead, and have that authority given by the Lord Jesus Himself, Judas must have had a real personal relationship with Jesus, then drifted into apostasy as Scripture says he would.

I still have peace and even some zap left. Take all of Scripture, every verse. If one person has never fallen away (apostasy, backslide, etc.), then why are there so many passages warning against this? Why do we need to pray for revival? Why, because we are not in the place where we should be! Revival is for the church to awaken from its slumber and sleep. While the church sleeps, people are lost for eternity without the Good News of the Gospel preached to them.

AWAKEN OH CHURCH! AWAKEN FOR THE TIME IS SOON!