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End time tribulation and revival

E
elected

There is not a clear evidence from the bible that believers will be raptured with the Lord in the air before the great tribulation and before antichrist will rule the world for a short time.
What if secret pre-tribulation rapture teaching is just an assumption with no biblical foundation or historical support especially from early church fathers? I think many believers will be unprepared when persecution and great tribulation will come like a thief in the night.

The brethrem movement that spring up among anglican and evangelical christians in the midst of the 1800s century was a reactionary and restoration movement against anglical and protestant clergy, who had devided christians in two classes: clergy and laity. They rediscouvered a lot of hidden truths from the bible and primitive christianity, like the biblical pattern of the church government by elders and not just 1 bishop, the doctrine of the second comming of Christ and millenium reign of Christ etc. Unfortunately they exposed a special teaching of the secret rapture of the believers before the great tribulation that has become very popular today, especially in the west where chirstians live at ease and comfort.

The early church fathers as far as i am aware did not teach a pre-tribulation rapture. The early christians in the first 3 centuries were a persecuted minority, many of them were expecting the 2nd comming of Jesus but they knew that often they had even to shed their blood for the tesimony of Jesus.

The devil is a certified liar, a master of deceiption, what if he will caught unprepared many of the chrstian believers in the great tribulation, who while expecting to be caught up with Jesus in the air will be unprepared for the fiery trials.

Jesus promised victory and the kingdom of God to the overcomers and those who keep the testimony of Jesus and persevere to the end in the last days. There is a second comming, Jesus foretold it, apostles preached it and the book of revelation proclaims it. I believe we who will persevere thru tribulation will be caught up in the air with Jesus at his second comming when the last trumped is sounded and Jesus will come back on earth with thousands and thousands of his saints to destroy antichrist and usher his millenium reign and sit on the throne of David at Jerusalem.

We see it all around us the signs of his second comming, may God stir us to be vigilant and fear Him and hate sin, love the truth and give us the grace of perseverance. No doubt his comming is near then never before, and his Spirit is purifying and sanctifying the bride of Christ to make her holy and blameless at his comming.The Lord is moving today among his remnant and as it is prophesied by Joel in the last days He will pour out His Spirit upon all flesh, He did that with the apostolic church and He will do it with the end time saints amidts persecutions and trials.

I believe there will be a move of the Lord and a revival in these days quite diffrent from what we are accostumed to expect. The Lord is not bound by methods and systems, his ways are past finding out and his judgments unsearchable. May we be part of His move and a living witness for Jesus in these end times.

Blessings,
Redi


S
sermonindex

There is not a clear evidence from the bible that believers will be raptured with the Lord in the air before the great tribulation and before antichrist will rule the world for a short time.
What if secret pre-tribulation rapture teaching is just an assumption with no biblical foundation or historical support especially from early church fathers? I think many believers will be unprepared when persecution and great tribulation will come like a thief in the night.

Great post. I believe the "wrath of God" will not be poured out on those who are His! This is known as a "pre-wrath" position. The great tribulation starts in the last 3.5 years of that 7 year period. So at the most the "rapture" could happen before that 3.5 years ie already when the antichrist has made himself known.

But also a more likely viewpoint is when Christ comes back for the second time he will pour out His wrath then and also at the same time rapture His Church.

The conclusion in my mind is we don't know definitely but what we do know is we will be saved from God's wrath but be given "grace" to endure the wrath of men and the devil.

Let's be prepared and be living holy lives looking forward to His return!

E
elected

I believe the "wrath of God" will not be poured out on those who are His! This is known as a "pre-wrath" position. The great tribulation starts in the last 3.5 years of that 7 year period. So at the most the "rapture" could happen before that 3.5 years ie already when the antichrist has made himself known.

I believer too brother that the wrath of God will not be poured upon his saints but upon the ungodly and unrighteous people who hate the truth. In the book of revelation God talks about the overcomers and those who kept the testomony of Jesus, or about the elect of God who even satan will try to deceive. I believe the elect of God during the great tribulation is comprised of a remnant jews and gentiles who will not bow their knee to worship the "son of perdition" or his image but will keep their tesimony of Jesus uncompronised and will even suffer martyrdom for the sake of Christ.

Let's be prepared and be living holy lives looking forward to His return!

Amen bro, thats most important then anything else, a holy heart and a blessed hope of his comming again.

Maranatha

R
robbyk


elected wrote:

The Lord is moving today among his remnant and as it is prophesied by Joel in the last days He will pour out His Spirit upon all flesh, He did that with the apostolic church and He will do it with the end time saints amidst persecutions and trials.

I am in complete accord with the above [and I used to strongly hold a “pre-trib” disposition] and many of us here are preparing for our soon to be total reliance on the miraculous provision of the Lord, our healing, sustenance...we will prophecy and build and strengthen one another with our eyes continually fixed on the Glorious One who will soon brighten our every step throughout eternity!

A
anonymity

I am also in ACCORD with this! I was once pre trib then a return to the scriptures and clarity of the post tribulational rapture and also revival in the last days under hardship.

As for the pre wrath position. The saints will be on the earth during the tribulation the whole thing, but they will be spared from the wrath as Israel was spared from the plagues though they were in the midst of them.

Israel/ God's people, Pharaoh/ Devil, Egypt/ World, Moses/ Jesus, all of this is a picture of how Jesus is coming to deliver His people from the world and the devil. The way that He did this was by sending plagues/ wrath and though Israel was in the midst of it and the plagues were coming they only affected the Egyptians.

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THOSE WHO ARE REALLY SEEKING GOD AND TAKING AN HONEST MATURE LOOK BY THE WISDOM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AT THE SCRIPTURES WITHOUT BIAS OR IMPRESSION FROM MAN ARE INCREASINGLY COMING TO THIS UNDERSTANDING AND THE OLD FALSE TEACHINGS THAT WERE PROPOGATED IN THE CHURCH ARE BEING REFORMED BY GOD! I know it was this way for me I was brought up in the Mecca of pre trib teaching and once I sought it out hard in prayer and study ect I finally simply and clearly understood it.

S
sermonindex


What did they come out of?

Rev:7:9 "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:


“ Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me,


“Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

14 And I said to him, “Sir,[b] you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who COME OUT of The Great Tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." 15

If they came out,is it not logical that they had to go in?

"Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters.[c] And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes"


Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Is not the beast the antichrist? How were the redeemed thus martyred, if not in the very same "Great tribulation?"

E
elected


I too used too believed in the pre-tribulation teaching, but somehow deep in my heart i could not reconcile pre-trib with the new testament teaching and the light of my conscience.

Dispenssationnalism movement started with the plymouth brethren and made popular by D.L.Moody and C.S. Scotfield bible who had alot of good points but modern day dispenssationalism has strayed in preaching an easy gosple.

Eschatological teaching is very popular and so many are obsessed with prophecy and future events that application to the daily holy living and surrender to Jesus is neglected. We are reaping what we have sowed for about 150 years. The gosple has been gradually and sistematically watered down by orthodox teachers/preachers.

We are spiritually speaking living in the dark ages and in the greatest apostasy. I beleive before the second comming of the Lord there will be a mighty move of the Spirit of the Lord among his remnant that will restore apostolic zeal and teaching. It will revive militant apostolic christianity and early christian martyrdom.

Im a lukewarm christian but i want to be part of the militant church and join the comandos in the army of God.I want to "catch" the wind of the Spirit and be a part of the move of God.

Whether we believe in the Pre-Trib. Mid-Trib or Post-Trib or in a-millenium or post millennium or anything else, God will forgive our ignorance or lack of knowledge but he will not reward the foolish virgins who ran out of oil when the Bridegroom will come back when they expected it not.

S
sermonindex

I too used too believed in the pre-tribulation teaching
I think we all did. But just as a side note, I am still trying to find 7 years of tribulation or 3 and half years of tribulation and 3 and half years of wrath. Can't find it anywhere.

L
Lysa

Greg,

I came across this website with this wonderful information "just" today! :-D Check out that bolded paragraph. This is off my cuff... so don't shoot me to death!! LOL I'm on my way out the door and wanted to post it before I left. I will check back in when I get home!


The pre-tribulation rapture doctrine teaches us that we will be leaving this world when Christian suffering begins. The doctrine teaches that we will be leaving those who suffer, and those who do not know Jesus Christ as their Savior. The doctrine teaches that we want to abandon the ones who will be “left behind.” Such thinking is not the thinking that Paul demonstrated (¶ 6) (in 2 Cor 1.3-10).

(ESV 2 Corinthians 1:3-10) [i]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. [b]For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings[/b], so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too. [b]If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation[/b]; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer. Our hope for you is unshaken, for we know that as you share in our sufferings, you will also share in our comfort. For we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of the affliction we experienced in Asia. For we were so utterly burdened beyond our strength that we despaired of life itself. Indeed, we felt that we had received the sentence of death. But that was to make us rely not on ourselves but on God who raises the dead. He delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will deliver us again. (¶ 5)[/i]

[b]And don’t fall into a belief in a mid-tribulation rapture either. All the Scriptural evidence indicates the rapture is after the great tribulation. Therefore, God has a purpose for us even in the great tribulation. All things work to the good of those who are called according to His purpose. This includes the great tribulation. Tribulation brings holiness. We must overcome sin before we can inherit the kingdom. We must overcome sin before we can be caught up in the rapture.[/b] (¶ 8)

[b]We are Not Appointed to God’s Wrath[/b]

In 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul says that we are not appointed to God’s wrath.  This has been a favorite verse that’s been used by pre-tribulation rapture advocates.  The argument is that the rapture must be before the tribulation, because we are not appointed to God’s wrath.  But actually, this is another verse that proves the rapture is after the tribulation.  No one argues the fact the there are Christians during the tribulation.  Pre-tribulation rapture advocates call them “tribulation saints.” But are these saints appointed to God’s wrath?  No, they are not.  We are not appointed to God’s wrath, and neither are they.  The rapture is for them as well.

So we must read the verse in context.  Paul is speaking of the time when the world is saying “peace and safety.” Then sudden destruction comes on the world.  The world experiences a false “peace and safety” during the 42 months when the antichrist rules over every nation, tribe, people, and language (Revelation 13:5-7).  As we have seen, there will be no trumpet-plagues or bowls of wrath during the 1290 days.  At the end of those days, Christ returns as a thief-in-the-night, and there is sudden destruction for the world.  No one who has Christ is appointed to this wrath.

But are we appointed to the other plagues and wrath given in Revelation?  Are the “tribulation saints” appointed to these plagues?  The plagues and wrath given in Revelation have strong parallels to the plagues given to Egypt: water is turned into blood; there are frogs, boils on the skin, hail, locusts, and darkness.  So for any wrath of God that happens prior to the rapture, God will protect us in the same way He protected Israel during the plagues on Egypt.  God is able and powerful enough to protect us in the midst of his plagues and wrath on the world

Copied from [url=http://newwine.org/Articles/PreTrib.htm#Wrath]Problems with the Pre-Tribulation Rapture[/url]

D
dunlow64God

okay...so i am not a deep thinker i don't get into a lot of theological discussions and debates because i usually don't understand most of what is said and why it is even being discussed...God is God, He is on the throne, in the end (and now and forever more) He is the victor and if we are in Him, so are we! Who cares what denomination you are in or who thinks they know more about the scriptures...truth be known we don't know half as much as we'd like to think that we do! I envision God shaking His head back and forth in an "I can't believe how misconstrued that is" motion ( yes, i am smart enough to know that He is a Spirit and doesn't have a physical body). Don't get me wrong God gives us revelations of His Word, but there is alot out there that is purely flesh!!! What difference does it make whether we're called up pre-trib or post-trib? As long as we are walking with God and living by Spirit and Truth, we will be taken care of. God's grace is sufficient! I think i remember reading that somewhere in my Bible! I'm sorry if I have come across as being really mean or condescending...but i really felt the urge to get that off my chest! We should be more worried about what we are doing to serve our Lord now and until He comes back instead of when He will be coming! I apologize to anyone ahead of time, not for what I've said but for the way it may come across! This must be the Holy Spirit speaking through me because I am usually quite shy and not as bold as this! I'm putting my helmet and pads on in case you all want to throw things at me! :-o

Lovingly In Christ,
Wendy :-D

S
sermonindex

I envision God shaking His head back and forth in an "I can't believe how misconstrued that is"
There is a lot of truth in that statement. Bible prophecy is so misconstrued that people have no idea if what they believe is even in the bible. Most people look at what is going on in the world than what the bible has already said about said events.
What difference does it make whether we're called up pre-trib or post-trib?
Actually Wendy there is. Just what if there is no such a thing as a future "Great Tribulation"?

What if what we were taught about a "Rapture" will not take place as how we perceive it to be?

We have to remember something. When Jesus came, the people thought that the Messiah was going to come like a military General to wipe out the occupation of Rome and the land be restored to Israel and the kingdom of God would be ushered in. That was the mindset of the day because that is how they interpreted the scriptures to mean. But when Jesus came, they were sorely disappointed. He certainly did fulfil all the scriptures that concerned Him, the Kingdom of God did come in the hearts of men, but it wasn't a physical act that men could see with eyes. It was a spiritual act of God.

When you read the New Testament, all the writers agreed that they were living in the last days, the majority of Christians throw their words into our future because history doesn't mention any cataclysmic events surrounding the sun being darkened and the moon not giving her light and the stars of the heaven shall fall etc.. But just what if we got it all wrong. What if what Jesus spoke of were pictures of something else?

In the Old Testament, those same words that Jesus spoke of concerning the sun moon and the stars were spoken by the prophets concerning Babylon or Egypt's demise. It was the signal that the super power that they once were was to be darkened and another super power would be the one to be the governing power of the day.

When Joseph had his dream about the sun the moon and the stars bowing down to him, Jacob rebuked him and said, "shall I (sun) and your mother(moon) and your brethren(stars) shall bow down and worship you?" (emphasis mine) So I don't take what Jesus said concerning the literal sun to die out, the Old Testament is there to show us something else that He wants us to see.

We don't want to waste our time teaching something that doesn't exist in scripture. Think on these lines, consider my words carefully in the light of the word of God.

S
sermonindex

Dear Deepthinker:


When Christ comes again, at the end of the Tribulation, at His second coming, He comes WITH His Saints. He doesn’t come to earth WITH THE SOULS OF HIS DEAD SAINTS IN HEAVEN, and call for the BODIES of the dead in Christ first, and then call those that are saved and alive on the earth second, and then go back into heaven, and then re-enter the earth again with His Saints.

[b][color=990000]I realize that everyone who has posted on this thread does not believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. When responding to my post, please use SCRIPTURE TO SUPPORT YOUR POSITION of a Mid-Tribulation Or End of Tribulation Rapture.[/color][/b]

I have just finished a personal Bible study on the resurrection, and the Bema judgments for Christians:


Christ is the firstfruits of the Resurrection.
1 Cor 15:20-23
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

We (believers) are the firstfruits of the Spirit, that will receive our new resurrected bodies when he comes to get us at the rapture, as described above, and we will be like Him! The rapture takes place before the Tribulation and the “Day of the Lord”.

Romans 8:23-25
23. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25. But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

When we receive our new resurrected bodies, we will be like Him!

James 1:18
18. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures


This is another description of the Rapture and the receipt of our new resurrected bodies:

1 Cor 15:52-57
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is another description of the Rapture.
1 Thes 4:13-17
13. But I would not have you to be IGNORANT, brethren (because they were), concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[b]This passage describes what will happen when Christ comes back to redeem us to Himself. We will be perfect like Him in all ways! [/b]

1 Cor. 13:9-12
9. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

1 John 3:2
2. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

[b]Next, we find a description of the Lord'S SECOND COMING-- coming back to the earth WITH HIS SAINTS (that would be the resurrected Church, described above, from the RAPTURE). . This clarifies for us that there is more than one resurrection (Firstfruits of the Resurrection). First, the rapture and resurrection, that occurs before anit-christ is revealed, described above, and then another resurrection of the souls of those that have become believers during the Tribulation, that have been be-headed by the antichrist, AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION:[/b]

Zechariah 14
1. Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah:[b][color=990000] and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.[/color][/b]6.And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7.But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


[b]This describes the rapture of the people that were not saved before the Tribulation (Jews and Gentiles), that went through the Great Tribulation and became believers in Christ (saved) and were beheaded during the tribulation. At the end of the Tribulation Christ throws Satan into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years and judges the beheaded believers (described above). This is a judgment of rewards, not punishment. The judgment of punishment is the Great White Throne Judgment mentioned in Rev. 20:11 and is for all non-believers.[/b]

Rev 20:1-6
1. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5.[b] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [/b] 6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


[b]Saints---Our belief in the Rapture is just as certain, just as sure, as our belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ![/b]

In 1 Thess 4:14 Paul equates belief of the Rapture is just as certain as belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Sincerley,

Walter


DeepThinker wrote:
I envision God shaking His head back and forth in an "I can't believe how misconstrued that is"
There is a lot of truth in that statement. Bible prophecy is so misconstrued that people have no idea if what they believe is even in the bible. Most people look at what is going on in the world than what the bible has already said about said events.
What difference does it make whether we're called up pre-trib or post-trib?
Actually Wendy there is. Just what if there is no such a thing as a future "Great Tribulation"?

What if what we were taught about a "Rapture" will not take place as how we perceive it to be?

We have to remember something. When Jesus came, the people thought that the Messiah was going to come like a military General to wipe out the occupation of Rome and the land be restored to Israel and the kingdom of God would be ushered in. That was the mindset of the day because that is how they interpreted the scriptures to mean. But when Jesus came, they were sorely disappointed. He certainly did fulfil all the scriptures that concerned Him, the Kingdom of God did come in the hearts of men, but it wasn't a physical act that men could see with eyes. It was a spiritual act of God.

DELETED

A
anonymity

Waltern,

I wonder if you have sought God hard in these topics or books hard. These things must be revealed as every small thing in our life as it was with Daniel in that he prayed and fasted until it was revealed to him. There is surely a spirit of stupor among other biases and whatnot like tradition and denominations that lead people to hold to such thing against such things which are so clear.

As for you argument I always thought that those saints were angels that were coming with Christ as they are his army and bear swords. The word used there in the greek is the same used for angels.

I do not think though that such specifications need to be delved into. I mean any scriptures can be argued over just as the Watchtowerites. There are always hard scriptures that can be isolated and twisted and with that and a spirit of stupor the odds are against apologists. So, in light of all this I wont spend a great deal of time going point by point, but I will stick to what is simple and clear.

The scriptures overwhelmingly teach that there is a post tribulation rapture or that the rapture will not come until we are faithful to the end all the way til Christ comes. Also, no one is denying that there will be a rapture only the timing of it.

So the question is not this or that. The question is are there clear and solid scripture teaching post or pre. As for the pre stance there are no clear verses. All arguments are based on verse that may seem to teach this or that or are based on a building argument like the one you laid out. For instance not a clear verse saying THE RAPTURE WILL BE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION but instead we will not be under Gods wrath THEREFORE it can not be. On the other hand for the post there are clear verses that are very straight forward and say THE RAPTURE WILL BE AFTER THE TRIBUATION yes.. that clearly. Here is one for instance:

Mar 13:24 "But in those days, [b]after that tribulation[/b], the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light,
Mar 13:25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And [b]then[/b] they will [b]see the Son of Man coming in clouds[/b] with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And [b]then[/b] he will send out the angels and [b]gather his elect[/b] from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

R
rbanks

Here is another thread where people have become so smart that they know that can't be a rapture before the great tribulation.

Jesus said watch and be ready, in an hour that ye think not, but some say that there can't be a rapture before the great tribulation.

Blessings to all!

A
anonymity

Rbanks,

"here is another thread where people think they are so smart that there cant be"

I don't think anyone is claiming to be so smart. As for me I just believe it is in the scriptures and that God showed it to me clearly.

I think this is an offensive and unfounded statement that should not have been made. And, I do not think I have been making any statements like this.

I do not think it a big thing to be sure of something. We should be sure of what the scriptures say in many instances and it is not an impossibility but in this case somewhat of a simplicity.

The scriptures you posted is not a straight forward verse stating that the rapture will be before the tribulation. This is another example of a round about proving one point on top of another without a clear straight forward verse. You would think that if a pre trib position were true that it would just come out and say it in the Scriptures as it has with post trib.

Once again I do not want to go far into all the specifics when all the clear full verse are there at hand. The scriptures state in one place that He will come like a thief in the night and then in another saying but we "Christians" are not in the darnkess or of the night. It will come to many especially those damned souls who are darkened in a surprising way and we wont know the hour though we may know the day or the week at least I know we are to know the season and not be as the Pharisees who could discern the seasons but not Gods timings.

S
sermonindex


Anonymity Posted

[b]
As for your argument I always thought that those saints were angels that were coming with Christ as they are his army and bear swords. The word used there in the greek is the same used for angels.[/b]

Walters response:

[color=990000]I disagree, 100%[/color]

Websters 1828 Dictionary of the English Language is a great Dictionary to use when trying to find understanding and meaning of Scripture:

[b]SAINT, n. [L. sanctus.]
1. A person sanctified; a holy or godly person; one eminent for piety and virtue. It is particularly applied to the apostles and other holy persons mentioned in Scripture. A hypocrite may imitate a saint. Ps. 16.
2. One of the blessed in heaven. Rev. 18.
3. The holy angels are called saint. Deut. 33. Jude 14.
4. One canonized by the church of Rome.[/b]

Also, Eastons Bible Dictionary is helpful as well:
Saint - one separated from the world and consecrated to God; one holy by profession and by covenant;[b] a believer in Christ (Ps. 16:3; Rom. 1:7; 8:27; Phil. 1:1; Heb. 6:10).[/b]
The "saints" spoken of in Jude 1:14 are probably not the disciples of Christ, but the "innumerable company of angels" (Heb. 12:22; Ps. 68:17), with reference to Deut. 33:2.
This word is also used of the holy dead (Matt. 27:52; Rev. 18:24). It was not used as a distinctive title of the apostles and evangelists and of a "spiritual nobility" till the fourth century. In that sense it is not a scriptural title.

Also, Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words is helpful.
[b]In the New Testament the Greek word hagios (literally meaning 'Holy') is used of God's people and is translated as 'saints' meaning 'holy ones.' This really means to be 'set apart' and the holiness of the saints is then the conduct expected of those who are separated or set apart unto God.

"In the plural, as used of believers, it designates all such and is not appled to persons of exceptional holiness, or to those who, having died, were characterized by exceptional acts of "saintliness." See especially 2Thess. 1:10, where "His saints" are also described as "them that believed," i.e. the whole number of the redeemed." [/b]

Also, if we open our Bibles, turn to 2 Thes 1:10:

10. When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The word saint seems to agree in the Hebrew and Greek, so, in the Greek the root word is hagos, an awful thing, or a thing full of awe as the word awful was used in the original English intent. It means purified ceremonially, holy, consecrated. was used in the original English intent. [b]It means purified ceremonially, holy, consecrated.[/b]

Anonymity posted

[b]I do not think though that such specifications need to be delved into. I mean any scriptures can be argued over just as the Watchtowerites. There are always hard scriptures that can be isolated and twisted and with that and a spirit of stupor the odds are against apologists. So, in light of all this I wont spend a great deal of time going point by point, but I will stick to what is simple and clear.[/b]

[b]Walter's response[/b]

I surely do not agree with you. Please take the time, and read my entire post, and then [b]respond with Scripture where you disagree (like I did above, when you stated that only the Angels in Heaven are considered to be Saints).[/b] There are no tricks here, no Jehovahs Witness deceit and error, only Scripture and years of study and reading God’s Word.

Anonymity posted

[b]The scriptures overwhelmingly teach that there is a post tribulation rapture or that the rapture will not come until we are faithful to the end all the way til Christ comes. Also, no one is denying that there will be a rapture only the timing of it.[/b]

Walter’s response:

[color=990000]I totally disagree with your statement, 100%. Prove the above statement with Scripture, line by line and verse by verse. Prove your statement that “The scriptures overwhelmingly teach that there is a post tribulation rapture or that the rapture will not come until we are faithful to the end all the way til Christ comes”[/color]


Anonymity posted

[b]So the question is not this or that. The question is are there clear and solid scripture teaching post or pre. As for the pre stance there are no clear verses. All arguments are based on verse that may seem to teach this or that or are based on a building argument like the one you laid out. For instance not a clear verse saying THE RAPTURE WILL BE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION but instead we will not be under Gods wrath THEREFORE it can not be. [/b]

Walter’s response:

[color=990000]I totally DISAGREE again, 100%. The believer is told that he has already, past tense, escaped the wrath to come.[/color]

1 Thessalonians 1:10
10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

However, the God hating, Christ rejecting Pharisees were told this by Christ:
(Matthew 3:7)
7. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

(Luke 3:7)
7.\tThen said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

[color=990000]So to clarify the issue, those that are saved are assured that they will escape the wrath to come (the Tribulation). All of the non-saved, God hating, Christ hating Jews, as well as others that hate God & Christ will go through the Tribulation, and are told that they will have to[u] flee the wrath to come,[/u] if they can, during the Tribulation.[/color]

Anonymity said:

[b]On the other hand for the post there are clear verses that are very straight forward and say THE RAPTURE WILL BE AFTER THE TRIBUATION yes.. that clearly. Here is one for instance:

Mar 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light,
Mar 13:25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

[/b]

Walter responds:

[color=990000][b]I totally disagree, 100%. You are confused.

Specifically:
What you have quoted above is a description of the 2nd Coming, not the Rapture. The 2nd coming is at the end of the Tribulation, when Christ comes with His Saints (not for His Saints).[/color][/b]

Zechariah 14 describes this event:

5.And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come,[color=990000] and all the saints with thee.[/color] 6. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7. But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

What does term “The Day of the Lord” mean?

The New Testament calls it a day of “wrath,” a day of “visitation,” and the “great day of God Almighty” (Revelation 16:4) and refers to a still future fulfillment when God’s wrath is poured out on unbelieving Israel (Isaiah 22; Jeremiah 30:1-17; Joel 1-2; Amos 5; Zephaniah 1) and on the unbelieving world (Ezekiel 38–39; Zechariah 14). The Scriptures indicate that “the day of the Lord” will come quickly, like a thief in the night (Zephaniah 1:14-15; 2 Thessalonians 2:2), and therefore Christians must be watchful and ready for the coming of Christ at any moment.

Besides being a time of judgment, it will also be a time of salvation as God will deliver the remnant of Israel, fulfilling His promise that “all of Israel will be saved” (Romans 11:26), forgiving their sins and restoring His chosen people to the land He promised to Abraham (Isaiah 10:27; Jeremiah 30:19-31, 40; Micah 4; Zechariah 13). The final outcome of the day of the Lord will be that “the arrogance of man will be brought low and the pride of men humbled; the Lord alone will be exalted in that day” (Isaiah 2:17). The ultimate or final fulfillment of the prophecies concerning the day of the Lord will come at the end of history when God, with wondrous power, will punish evil and fulfill all His promises.


[b]Also, other Scriptures in God's word describe the Day of the Lord, and the second coming of Christ (not the Rapture):

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12; Col 3:4-6; Isaiah 2:12-21; Isaiah 13:6-16; Isaiah 34:1-8; Joel 1:15-2:11; Joel 2:28-32; Joel 3:9-12; Amos 5:18-20; Obadiah 1:15-17; Zeph 1:7-18; Jeremiah 46:10; Ezekiel 38 & Ezekiel 39; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5.[/b]

Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:3 describes the peace treaty imposed on Israel 3 ½ years before the 2nd Coming, at the end of Tribulation

In the future, please provide Scripture when you make statements and conclusions. Without Scripture to support your views and opinions, they are of no value.

God bless,

Walter


anonymity wrote:
Waltern,

I wonder if you have sought God hard in these topics or books hard. These things must be revealed as every small thing in our life as it was with Daniel in that he prayed and fasted until it was revealed to him. There is surely a spirit of stupor among other biases and whatnot like tradition and denominations that lead people to hold to such thing against such things which are so clear.

As for you argument I always thought that those saints were angels that were coming with Christ as they are his army and bear swords. The word used there in the greek is the same used for angels.

I do not think though that such specifications need to be delved into. I mean any scriptures can be argued over just as the Watchtowerites. There are always hard scriptures that can be isolated and twisted and with that and a spirit of stupor the odds are against apologists. So, in light of all this I wont spend a great deal of time going point by point, but I will stick to what is simple and clear.

The scriptures overwhelmingly teach that there is a post tribulation rapture or that the rapture will not come until we are faithful to the end all the way til Christ comes. Also, no one is denying that there will be a rapture only the timing of it.

So the question is not this or that. The question is are there clear and solid scripture teaching post or pre. As for the pre stance there are no clear verses. All arguments are based on verse that may seem to teach this or that or are based on a building argument like the one you laid out. For instance not a clear verse saying THE RAPTURE WILL BE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION but instead we will not be under Gods wrath THEREFORE it can not be. On the other hand for the post there are clear verses that are very straight forward and say THE RAPTURE WILL BE AFTER THE TRIBUATION yes.. that clearly. Here is one for instance:

Mar 13:24 "But in those days, [b]after that tribulation[/b], the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light,
Mar 13:25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And [b]then[/b] they will [b]see the Son of Man coming in clouds[/b] with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And [b]then[/b] he will send out the angels and [b]gather his elect[/b] from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

D
dunlow64God

Deepthinker,

I think i was misunderstood when i said what difference does it make...i think you understood me to say that the rapture as a whole didn't make a difference. That is not what i meant. I was not trying to say that believing(or should i say knowing) there was going to be a rapture did not make a difference, i was simply saying that as long as there is one why does it make a difference when it is going to take place, as long as we are found serving the Lord and having oil in our lamps!!! That is what i was trying to say. Personally, I believe in pretribulation, but i'm not going to debate and try to change everyone's mind...the only one who knows when Jesus Christ is coming back is God the Father and His Word states that it is not for us to know the time or day that He will come back, so I don't foresee Him letting anyone in on the secret...so I think we are wasting time when we try to read into the scriptures and turn them into what we want them to say...sometimes we can say that we hear from God when it's something that we really want it to be ourselves...so what i'm getting at is that this same discussion will probably be going on when Jesus comes back for His bride and some will still be sitting here carrying on... :-o
In Christ,
Wendy :-)

S
sober

Hi, thank you. I understand your distinguishing the difference of Bridegroom and The King(ex.psalm 45) who alone is The Blessed Savior Jesus the Christ. Let us have grace... Hebrews 12:25-29 Iam glad we have received of His fullness and grace for grace.

A
anonymity

Waltern,

I was not mixed up about the verse I quoted. I know it is talking about the second coming and it is also in that period the rapture will occur.

The Lord is only coming once. He is only going to rapture His people once. There is no passage saying He is going to come before He comes again. There are no scriptures straightforwardly saying that the Lord will come or rapture the Church before the tribulation unlike there are straightforward scriptures for the post trib rapture.

The Church will be on the earth during the tribulation period. This is why just before Revelation speaks of the tribulation they are told by Jesus to endure to the end. The reason the Church is not clearly mentioned after the letter in Revelation is because the emphasis switches to Israel. Even though the Church is on the earth during the tribulation period they will not be affected by the wrath of God as Israel was not affected by the plagues when they were in Egypt. This has already been covered here and by many others and is made manifest.

Like I was saying I don't really see any good in jumping around on a bunch of specs when the larger things are out there.

SHOW ME A CLEAR VERSE THAT STRAIGHTFORWARDLY SAYS THERE IS A RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION. DO NOT GIVE ME THIS VERSE SO THEREFORE THIS AND AN ARGUMENT THAT SEEKS TO BUILD UPON ITSELF. I COULD ANSWER ALL THOSE QUESTION THAT YOU WOULD GIVE ME THAT ARE LIKE THAT BUT I DO NOT WANT TO AND HAVE ALREADY FOUND THEM EMPTY. LIKE I SAID THERE ARE MANY STRAIGHTFORWARD VERSE FOR THE POST TRIB RAPTURE.

If you are so stuck and still for some reason do not believe that the Church cannot be on the earth because of wrath then are you saying that the saints on the earth who get saved during the trib will go under it? You dont even have to answer that. The verse that you quote about us not getting wrath is actually not talking about the wrath of the tribulation specifically but is in context speaking of the Gospel and salvation. I do though believe that we will not be under God's wrath. I'm just saying you have taken that text out of context.

So once again the only thing I am interested in is you showing me something clear and straighforward without an argument that says this so this so this just something clear and straightforward.

S
sermonindex


I think that one reason that this topic is passionate, is that everyone senses that we are close to the events foretold in Revelation, especially. Even the unbelievers today know that things are fragile, and realize that mutual annihilation is a possibility. Who would have thought 50 years ago that Islam could ever rise to be a threat to the west?; but they have.

Who could have imagined the Tsunami of False teachers and corrupt doctrines that MILLIONS now believe as the Gospel?; or the corresponding flood of global immorality, socialistic Humanism..[ abortion ] and arrogant materialism.

One thing that 9/11 did, is shake the myth of American invulnerability, , and we have been backsliding ever since. The bible says that men's hearts will fail because of FEAR! Will yours?


For those of you who hold to the Pre-tribulation rapture; would you not agree that someone is going in there?, and scripture states that it will be multitudes; a number that men cannot count due to it's enormity? These came out of it, without a doubt.


Remember the hymn, "When the saints go marching in?" These are those. They get to have dinner with the Lord. It's our marriage day.


I am not looking forward to hardship, nor suffering, but I'm certainly looking forward to dinner. Is God faithful? Has He ever forsaken any one who has put their trust in Him? This time is also called a trial for the whole Earth. Remember, the Harvest is the end of the age, and is essentially a time of separation, of division, between good and evil, WHEAT and poison TARES. There will be a mark of some kind, and there will be martyrs who refuse it, who are with God, yet crying out, "HOW LONG?" Well, you must admit that they must be Christian anyhow. I personally think that this could be militant Islam, in the end, that administers this judgment upon the unsubmissive.


Hebrews 11 was written as more than an historical tribute, I believe. It is a model, a remnant REALITY as it has always been...[ China today..] We too will be given the honor to prove the reality of our faith. It is a trial, and every Apostle lived by it, and died by it. It is the time of the 10 virgins. Oil is Holy Spirit filled Faith. This will enlighten a path for us all, if we believe and trust.

S
sermonindex


Dear Anonymity:

Can you not understand that the Christian believer has been promised that he is ALREADY delivered from the WRATH TO COME. The WRATH TO COME IS THE TRIBULATION.

1Thes 1:10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

[color=990000]What does the term “Wrath” or “The Day of the Lord” mean?[/color]

Webster’s 1828 Dictionary helps us with the word Wrath:
WRATH, n. [L.]
\t1. Violent anger; vehement exasperation; indignation; as the wrath of Achilles.
\t\tWhen the wrath of king Ahasuerus was appeased--Esther 2.
\t\tO Lord--in wrath remember mercy. Habakkuk 3.
\t2. The effects of anger. Proverbs 27.
\t[b][u]3. The just punishment of an offense or crime. Romans 8.
\tGods wrath, in Scripture, is his holy and just indignation against sin. Romans 1.
[/b]
[/u]

The Christian believer is promised by God to be delivered from this time in History, from the time of the TRIBULATION, to be delivered from the Wrath to Come. It is such a strong promise, that God tells us that we have ALREADY BEEN DELIVERED FROM THE WRATH TO COME:

The New Testament calls it a day of “wrath,” a day of “visitation,” and the “great day of God Almighty” (Revelation 16:4) and refers to a still future fulfillment when God’s wrath is poured out on unbelieving Israel (Isaiah 22; Jeremiah 30:1-17; Joel 1-2; Amos 5; Zephaniah 1) and on the unbelieving world (Ezekiel 38–39; Zechariah 14). The Scriptures indicate that “the day of the Lord” will come quickly, like a thief in the night (Zephaniah 1:14-15; 2 Thessalonians 2:2), and therefore Christians must be watchful and ready for the coming of Christ at any moment.

Besides being a time of judgment, it will also be a time of salvation as God will deliver the remnant of Israel, fulfilling His promise that “all of Israel will be saved” (Romans 11:26), forgiving their sins and restoring His chosen people to the land He promised to Abraham (Isaiah 10:27; Jeremiah 30:19-31, 40; Micah 4; Zechariah 13). The final outcome of the day of the Lord will be that “the arrogance of man will be brought low and the pride of men humbled; the Lord alone will be exalted in that day” (Isaiah 2:17). The ultimate or final fulfillment of the prophecies concerning the day of the Lord will come at the end of history when God, with wondrous power, will punish evil and fulfill all His promises.


Also, other Scriptures that describe the Day of the Lord, and the second coming of Christ in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12; Col 3:4-6; Isaiah 2:12-21; Isaiah 13:6-16; Isaiah 34:1-8; Joel 1:15-2:11; Joel 2:28-32; Joel 3:9-12; Amos 5:18-20; Obadiah 1:15-17; Zeph 1:7-18; Jeremiah 46:10; Ezekiel 38 & 39; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5

RAPTURE OR WRATH?

There is confusion today about when the Church will be raptured, in relation to the time called the Great Tribulation. Will it leave before the Tribulation begins, during the middle, or at the end? Now the Church is the body of Christ and is composed of saved, born again, people: those who have trusted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour. Will those people have to go through even a part of the Tribulation? What different denominations teach is irrelevant to what God says. The BIBLE HAS THE ANSWER.

The next 1,000 years, or so, is clearly outlined in Bible prophecy. The Lord Jesus Christ will return to earth (the Second Advent) and wage war according to Revelation 19:11-21. After that he will reign 1000 years (Revelation 20:4-6). Christ comes back just before the Millennium (1000 years in Latin). The Bible gives several names to the seven years before the Millennium begins. It is called the Tribulation, the time of "Jacob's Trouble," and Daniel's Seventieth Week. This seven years is the last phase of a prophecy spoken of in Daniel.

Daniel 9:24,25,26a
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and uponthe holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an endof sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision andprophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forthof the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore andtwo weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.26a And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cutoff, but not for himself...

According to these verses there are 69 weeks before Messiah is cut off (seven weeks + threescore and two weeks). A "week" in this case means seven years just as it did in Genesis 29:27, where Jacob had to serve seven years for Rachel. The fulfilling of this prophecy began in Nehemiah 2 in 450 B.C. and the first sixty-nine weeks did not end until Jesus Christ, the Messiah, was crucified, or "cut off," in 33 A.D. That totals 483 years. (If the beginning calendar date, e.g. 450 B.C., is off by a few years, the date of the crucifixion would also be off by the same amount of years. The time between the dates would still be 483 years.) The remaining "week", of seven years, will be fulfilled during the Tribulation, the time of "Jacob's Trouble," not the Church's trouble. Jesus, himself, tells what this time will be like.

Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Verses 29-31 tell of Christ's coming in the clouds after the Tribulation to gather his elect, both the living and the dead. As with the rapture of the Church, the dead will be resurrected and the living will be changed. These will include the 144,000 who were redeemed from the earth during this time (Revelation 14:1-5) and their converts. After this comes a judgment in Matthew 24:42-51. This same judgment is mentioned in Revelation 20:1-4.

Matthew 24:46,47
Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shallfind so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment wasgiven unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The Tribulation saints will be raptured just before the Lord comes back for the battle of Armageddon. After which the lost will be appointed their portion (Matthew 24:51) and Satan shall be bound for 1000 years. (Revelation 20:2)

The rapture of the body of Christ takes place before this period of Tribulation. Jesus' bride is waiting for him, not for the wrath of the Tribulation.

I Thessalonians 1:9,10
For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to [u] wait for his Son from heaven, [/u]whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus,[u] which delivered us from the wrath to come.[/u]
These verses say that Christians are to be waiting for Jesus and that he has delivered them from the wrath to come. The following verses further verify this.

Matthew 3:7b
...O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
In this verse John rebuked the Jewish Pharisees and implied that if they had believed that Messiah was coming and had been baptized (and thus later received him as Saviour) that they would be fleeing the "wrath" that was to fall on the nation of Israel.

These next two verses tells the Church Age saints that they will not see God's wrath on Israel.

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

I Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
This last verse records the plea of one experiencing God's wrath during the Tribulation.

Revelation 6:16,17
...Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The Church, Christ's body, has not been appointed to wrath. It will be raptured before the Tribulation begins. Two passages describe this.

I Thessalonians 4:16,17
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I Corinthians 15:51,52
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The bodies of living and dead Christian's will be redeemed at this time, since the soul and spirit are redeemed at the time of salvation. According to Romans 8:11-23, at the rapture, the Spirit will quicken the mortal bodies of living saints. This is called the adoption, or the redemption of the body. And, of course, dead saints will be resurrected. All our bodies will be glorified and raptured to heaven!
We will not receive the wrath of the Lamb because we are going to be with him in heaven. We will not receive the wrath of Satan (Revelation 12:12) because we have already overcome him according of I John 3:2-10. We will not come under the wrath of God because according to Isaiah 53, it fell on Jesus Christ when he took our place at Calvary. THEREFORE we are NOT appointed to wrath, or Tribulation, but to salvation, or Rapture!

Also, if Christians go through the Tribulation, when do they appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ mentioned in II Corinthians 5:10? This judgment takes place before the Great White Throne judgment in Revelation 20:11-15, which takes place after the Millennium. The Church has already been judged before the Marriage Supper in Revelation 19:7-9, where the saints are arrayed in white linen. This is their righteousness. When Jesus Christ comes back in verse 11 they come with him as the armies of heaven in verse 14. The Church comes out of heaven with him, so they must have been taken up earlier. In I Thessalonians 4 Jesus comes back for the saints, and in Revelation 19 he comes back with the saints.

[color=990000][b]The chronology of the book of Revelation also shows that the Church must go out before the Tribulation. Revelation 2 and 3 devotionally speak of characteristics of the Church Age. The seven churches picture seven epochs in Church Age history from 33 A.D. to the Tribulation. In Revelation 4:1 a door in heaven opens and John, the beloved apostle, a type of the Church, is taken up to heaven. The word "church" does not appear again. Revelation chapters 5-19 concern the Tribulation. Then in Revelation 19, heaven opens again and the Lord Jesus Christ comes down with his saints. The Church goes out before the Tribulation and comes back after it is finished.

Also, the Tribulation is Daniel's Seventieth week, and is determined on Israel, not the Church. [/color][/b]

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people...
Daniel's people were Jews, not Gentile churches. God will not be dealing with the Church during the Tribulation, just as be did not deal with it during the Old Testament. God began dealing with the Church after Israel had rejected the Messiah and had been taken out of the way. When God begins to deal with them again he will take the Church out of the way.

Besides that, if the Church was going to go through the Tribulation we would be looking for the abomination of desolation spoken of in Matthew.

Matthew 24:15a,21a
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by the prophet Daniel...21 For then shall be great tribulation...
[u]According to Paul we are to look for something different.[/u]

Philippians 3:20,21a
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body...
We are not looking for the Antichrist or for the Jew to rebuild the temple.

Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
Finally, Enoch is a type of the translated Church, and he was taken up to heaven before the flood, which is a type of the Great Tribulation. Noah is a type of believing Israel that will be sealed according to Revelation 7 and taken through the Tribulation protected by God's power. Concerning Enoch the Bible says:

Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
The word "translation" is mentioned three times. According to I Corinthians 15:21-24 there are three parts to the First Resurrection."Christ the firstfruits" include Old Testament saints who arose at the time of Christ's resurrection and appeared in Jerusalem according to Matthew 27:51-53. They are also mentioned in Ephesians 4:8-10."They that are Christ's at his coming" is the rapture of the Church Age saints mentioned in I Thessalonians 4."Then cometh the end" speaks of the Tribulation saints raptured in Revelation 7:9-14. More on this shortly.
One attempt to refute the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is to teach that the trumpet of the seventh angel in Revelation 11:15, at the Second Coming of Christ, is the same as the "trump of God" in I Corinthians 15:51. The trumpets are not the same because one is an angel's trumpet and the other is the trump of God. In Joshua 6 there is a type of these seven trumpets in the story of Jericho, the accursed city. Babylon is that accursed city in the Tribulation not the Church Age. Joshua's conquering Jericho is a type of the taking of Babylon in the Tribulation. Joshua's people and seven priests with seven trumpets march around the city seven times on the seventh day and then blow the seven trumpets and shout. The walls fall flat.
The last trump in I Corinthians 15:52 also has a type in the Old Testament. Notice that it is the last trump, not the seventh. It is the last of two trumps. In Numbers 10 God tells Moses to make and use two trumpets.

Numbers 10:1,2
And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.
Silver is a picture of redemption (Matthew 27); and the trumpets were blown for the assembly, then the journeying. The first trumpet will be blown in the Rapture for the assembling of the Church and the second for the calling out. For a conclusion we'll look again at the three parts of the first resurrection.

I Corinthians 15:22-24a
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end...
The first part took place when Jesus Christ brought up the Old Testament saints at his resurrection.

Matthew 27:52,53
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
This happened at the time of the Passover.
The second part takes place at the rapture of the Church (I Thessalonians 4 and I Corinthians 15) and will coincide with the feast of Pentecost. The third part will occur at the end of the Tribulation, at the feast of Tabernacles spoken of in Zechariah 14:18,19 and will include the Tribulation saints in Revelation 20:4,5. This first resurrection of the righteous does not include anyone who is lost and facing the second death (being thrown into the lake of fire). Jesus tells the Sadducees of this in Matthew 22:30-32 after they try to trick him concerning the resurrection.
Matthew 22:30-32

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
All three parts of the first resurrection will be of the "living" (spiritually alive or saved) only. There is a type of this in Deuteronomy 16:16.

•\tDeuteronomy 16:16
Three times in a year shall all the males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread {Passover - the firstfruits}, and in the feast of weeks {Pentecost - harvest of the Church}, and in the feast of tabernacles...{gleanings of Tribulation saints}
These feasts were scheduled according to the times of harvest in Israel, just as God will harvest the earth in the first resurrection. Every harvest has three crops: The firstfruits; (that ripen early, before the main harvest), then the main harvest; and then the gleanings (that ripen later). So is the first resurrection!
The resurrection of the lost dead (those who will suffer the second death) takes place in Revelation 20:11-13:

•\tRevelation 20:11-12
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

[color=990000][b]This resurrection occurs at the end of the Millennium, 1000 years after the last part of the first resurrection of the righteous - the gleanings of the Tribulation saints.
Heretical teachings about the Rapture affect the believer in the same way as other heresies. These false teachers try to rob the Christian of several things: their peace and security, by teaching that they can lose their salvation; their hope, by teaching that they will go through the Tribulation; their Saviour, by denying the deity of Christ; and their authority, by trying to destroy the infallibility of the King James Bible. Knowing and believing the truth will give a Christian peace and assurance. [/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter


anonymity wrote:
Waltern,

I was not mixed up about the verse I quoted. I know it is talking about the second coming and it is also in that period the rapture will occur.

The Lord is only coming once. He is only going to rapture His people once. There is no passage saying He is going to come before He comes again. There are no scriptures straightforwardly saying that the Lord will come or rapture the Church before the tribulation unlike there are straightforward scriptures for the post trib rapture.

The Church will be on the earth during the tribulation period. This is why just before Revelation speaks of the tribulation they are told by Jesus to endure to the end. The reason the Church is not clearly mentioned after the letter in Revelation is because the emphasis switches to Israel. Even though the Church is on the earth during the tribulation period they will not be affected by the wrath of God as Israel was not affected by the plagues when they were in Egypt. This has already been covered here and by many others and is made manifest.

Like I was saying I don't really see any good in jumping around on a bunch of specs when the larger things are out there.

SHOW ME A CLEAR VERSE THAT STRAIGHTFORWARDLY SAYS THERE IS A RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION. DO NOT GIVE ME THIS VERSE SO THEREFORE THIS AND AN ARGUMENT THAT SEEKS TO BUILD UPON ITSELF. I COULD ANSWER ALL THOSE QUESTION THAT YOU WOULD GIVE ME THAT ARE LIKE THAT BUT I DO NOT WANT TO AND HAVE ALREADY FOUND THEM EMPTY. LIKE I SAID THERE ARE MANY STRAIGHTFORWARD VERSE FOR THE POST TRIB RAPTURE.

If you are so stuck and still for some reason do not believe that the Church cannot be on the earth because of wrath then are you saying that the saints on the earth who get saved during the trib will go under it? You dont even have to answer that. The verse that you quote about us not getting wrath is actually not talking about the wrath of the tribulation specifically but is in context speaking of the Gospel and salvation. I do though believe that we will not be under God's wrath. I'm just saying you have taken that text out of context.

So once again the only thing I am interested in is you showing me something clear and straighforward without an argument that says this so this so this just something clear and straightforward.

S
sermonindex

The great tribulation starts in the last 3.5 years of that 7 year period.
But Greg, where is this so called 7 years of tribulation in the bible?

Where?

S
sermonindex


To Deepthinker:

You asked that question before, and it was answered.

Let's try again:

"It can be found in the Book of Daniel"


Sincerely,

Walter


DeepThinker wrote:
The great tribulation starts in the last 3.5 years of that 7 year period.
But Greg, where is this so called 7 years of tribulation in the bible?

Where?

S
sermonindex

I know dispensationalism with Scofields notes have conjured up the 7 year tribulation, I know which verse they use, but I would like someone to point it out for me, so that we are all on the same page.

S
sermonindex

To deepthinker:

This just proves to me once more, that you have no real interest in what is posted. You do not even read what is posted by others.

This will be the 2nd time that I have posted the propehcy found in Daniel, as well as other Books that tie all of this together.

However, I have no hope that you, deepthinker, will even read it, much less to study it.

We are told in the Bible that we are to:

[color=990000]
15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.[/color]

Here goes, deepthinker:


Daniel 9:24,25,26a
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and uponthe holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an endof sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision andprophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forthof the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore andtwo weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.26a And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cutoff, but not for himself...

According to these verses there are 69 weeks before Messiah is cut off (seven weeks + threescore and two weeks). A "week" in this case means seven years just as it did in Genesis 29:27, where Jacob had to serve seven years for Rachel. The fulfilling of this prophecy began in Nehemiah 2 in 450 B.C. and the first sixty-nine weeks did not end until Jesus Christ, the Messiah, was crucified, or "cut off," in 33 A.D. That totals 483 years. (If the beginning calendar date, e.g. 450 B.C., is off by a few years, the date of the crucifixion would also be off by the same amount of years. The time between the dates would still be 483 years.) The remaining "week", of seven years, will be fulfilled during the Tribulation, the time of "Jacob's Trouble," not the Church's trouble. Jesus, himself, tells what this time will be like.

Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Verses 29-31 tell of Christ's coming in the clouds after the Tribulation to gather his elect, both the living and the dead. As with the rapture of the Church, the dead will be resurrected and the living will be changed. These will include the 144,000 who were redeemed from the earth during this time (Revelation 14:1-5) and their converts. After this comes a judgment in Matthew 24:42-51. This same judgment is mentioned in Revelation 20:1-4.

Matthew 24:46,47
Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shallfind so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment wasgiven unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The Tribulation saints will be raptured just before the Lord comes back for the battle of Armageddon. After which the lost will be appointed their portion (Matthew 24:51) and Satan shall be bound for 1000 years. (Revelation 20:2)

The rapture of the body of Christ takes place before this period of Tribulation. Jesus' bride is waiting for him, not for the wrath of the Tribulation.

I Thessalonians 1:9,10
For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
These verses say that Christians are to be waiting for Jesus and that he has delivered them from the wrath to come. The following verses further verify this.

Matthew 3:7b
...O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
In this verse John rebuked the Jewish Pharisees and implied that if they had believed that Messiah was coming and had been baptized (and thus later received him as Saviour) that they would be fleeing the "wrath" that was to fall on the nation of Israel.

These next two verses tells the Church Age saints that they will not see God's wrath on Israel.

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

I Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
This last verse records the plea of one experiencing God's wrath during the Tribulation.

Revelation 6:16,17
...Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The Church, Christ's body, has not been appointed to wrath. It will be raptured before the Tribulation begins. Two passages describe this.

I Thessalonians 4:16,17
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I Corinthians 15:51,52
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The bodies of living and dead Christian's will be redeemed at this time, since the soul and spirit are redeemed at the time of salvation. According to Romans 8:11-23, at the rapture, the Spirit will quicken the mortal bodies of living saints. This is called the adoption, or the redemption of the body. And, of course, dead saints will be resurrected. All our bodies will be glorified and raptured to heaven!
We will not receive the wrath of the Lamb because we are going to be with him in heaven. We will not receive the wrath of Satan (Revelation 12:12) because we have already overcome him according of I John 3:2-10. We will not come under the wrath of God because according to Isaiah 53, it fell on Jesus Christ when he took our place at Calvary. THEREFORE we are NOT appointed to wrath, or Tribulation, but to salvation, or Rapture!

Also, if Christians go through the Tribulation, when do they appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ mentioned in II Corinthians 5:10? This judgment takes place before the Great White Throne judgment in Revelation 20:11-15, which takes place after the Millennium. The Church has already been judged before the Marriage Supper in Revelation 19:7-9, where the saints are arrayed in white linen. This is their righteousness. When Jesus Christ comes back in verse 11 they come with him as the armies of heaven in verse 14. The Church comes out of heaven with him, so they must have been taken up earlier. In I Thessalonians 4 Jesus comes back for the saints, and in Revelation 19 he comes back with the saints.

The chronology of the book of Revelation also shows that the Church must go out before the Tribulation. Revelation 2 and 3 devotionally speak of characteristics of the Church Age. The seven churches picture seven epochs in Church Age history from 33 A.D. to the Tribulation. In Revelation 4:1 a door in heaven opens and John, the beloved apostle, a type of the Church, is taken up to heaven. The word "church" does not appear again. Revelation chapters 5-19 concern the Tribulation. Then in Revelation 19, heaven opens again and the Lord Jesus Christ comes down with his saints. The Church goes out before the Tribulation and comes back after it is finished.

Also, the Tribulation is Daniel's Seventieth week, and is determined on Israel, not the Church.

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people...
Daniel's people were Jews, not Gentile churches. God will not be dealing with the Church during the Tribulation, just as be did not deal with it during the Old Testament. God began dealing with the Church after Israel had rejected the Messiah and had been taken out of the way. When God begins to deal with them again he will take the Church out of the way.

Besides that, if the Church was going to go through the Tribulation we would be looking for the abomination of desolation spoken of in Matthew.

Matthew 24:15a,21a
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by the prophet Daniel...21 For then shall be great tribulation...
According to Paul we are to look for something different.

Philippians 3:20,21a
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body...
We are not looking for the Antichrist or for the Jew to rebuild the temple.

Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
Finally, Enoch is a type of the translated Church, and he was taken up to heaven before the flood, which is a type of the Great Tribulation. Noah is a type of believing Israel that will be sealed according to Revelation 7 and taken through the Tribulation protected by God's power. Concerning Enoch the Bible says:

Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
The word "translation" is mentioned three times. According to I Corinthians 15:21-24 there are three parts to the First Resurrection."Christ the firstfruits" include Old Testament saints who arose at the time of Christ's resurrection and appeared in Jerusalem according to Matthew 27:51-53. They are also mentioned in Ephesians 4:8-10."They that are Christ's at his coming" is the rapture of the Church Age saints mentioned in I Thessalonians 4."Then cometh the end" speaks of the Tribulation saints raptured in Revelation 7:9-14. More on this shortly.
One attempt to refute the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is to teach that the trumpet of the seventh angel in Revelation 11:15, at the Second Coming of Christ, is the same as the "trump of God" in I Corinthians 15:51. The trumpets are not the same because one is an angel's trumpet and the other is the trump of God. In Joshua 6 there is a type of these seven trumpets in the story of Jericho, the accursed city. Babylon is that accursed city in the Tribulation not the Church Age. Joshua's conquering Jericho is a type of the taking of Babylon in the Tribulation. Joshua's people and seven priests with seven trumpets march around the city seven times on the seventh day and then blow the seven trumpets and shout. The walls fall flat.
The last trump in I Corinthians 15:52 also has a type in the Old Testament. Notice that it is the last trump, not the seventh. It is the last of two trumps. In Numbers 10 God tells Moses to make and use two trumpets.

Numbers 10:1,2
And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.
Silver is a picture of redemption (Matthew 27); and the trumpets were blown for the assembly, then the journeying. The first trumpet will be blown in the Rapture for the assembling of the Church and the second for the calling out. For a conclusion we'll look again at the three parts of the first resurrection.

I Corinthians 15:22-24a
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end...
The first part took place when Jesus Christ brought up the Old Testament saints at his resurrection.

Matthew 27:52,53
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
This happened at the time of the Passover.
The second part takes place at the rapture of the Church (I Thessalonians 4 and I Corinthians 15) and will coincide with the feast of Pentecost. The third part will occur at the end of the Tribulation, at the feast of Tabernacles spoken of in Zechariah 14:18,19 and will include the Tribulation saints in Revelation 20:4,5. This first resurrection of the righteous does not include anyone who is lost and facing the second death (being thrown into the lake of fire). Jesus tells the Sadducees of this in Matthew 22:30-32 after they try to trick him concerning the resurrection.
Matthew 22:30-32

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
All three parts of the first resurrection will be of the "living" (spiritually alive or saved) only. There is a type of this in Deuteronomy 16:16.

• Deuteronomy 16:16
Three times in a year shall all the males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread {Passover - the firstfruits}, and in the feast of weeks {Pentecost - harvest of the Church}, and in the feast of tabernacles...{gleanings of Tribulation saints}
These feasts were scheduled according to the times of harvest in Israel, just as God will harvest the earth in the first resurrection. Every harvest has three crops: The firstfruits; (that ripen early, before the main harvest), then the main harvest; and then the gleanings (that ripen later). So is the first resurrection!
The resurrection of the lost dead (those who will suffer the second death) takes place in Revelation 20:11-13:

• Revelation 20:11-12
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

This resurrection occurs at the end of the Millennium, 1000 years after the last part of the first resurrection of the righteous - the gleanings of the Tribulation saints.
Heretical teachings about the Rapture affect the believer in the same way as other heresies. These false teachers try to rob the Christian of several things: their peace and security, by teaching that they can lose their salvation; their hope, by teaching that they will go through the Tribulation; their Saviour, by denying the deity of Christ; and their authority, by trying to destroy the infallibility of the King James Bible. Knowing and believing the truth will give a Christian peace and assurance.

Sincerely,

Walter



DeepThinker wrote:
I know dispensationalism with Scofields notes have conjured up the 7 year tribulation, I know which verse they use, but I would like someone to point it out for me, so that we are all on the same page.

A
anonymity

Waltern,

I told you already that I believe that the Church will not be under God's wrath. Though they are on the earth during the tribulation they will be spared from it as Israel was from the plagues in Egypt.

Straight forward verse?...

M
murrcolr

When we are looking for the time of the rapture we must look to scripture.

I Corinthians 15:51,52
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, [b]at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[/b]

The Bible tells us the rature happens at the last trump(trumpet). John goes on to tell us that the mystery of God is accomplished at the at the seveth trumpet.

Rev 10:7 But in the days when the [b]seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished[/b], just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

The seventh trumpets sound and the Kingdom of this world becomes the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is when the rapture happens not before or after but at the last trump or the seventh trumpet as there is not a 8th trumpet.

Rev 11:15 [b]The seventh angel sounded his trumpet,[/b] and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,and he will reign for ever and ever."

S
sermonindex

Good Post Waldren, you have some good ideas, and not far from knowing more of the truth concerning this matter.

Daniel 9:24,25,26a Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon the holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.26a And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself... According to these verses there are 69 weeks before Messiah is cut off (seven weeks + threescore and two weeks). A "week" in this case means seven years just as it did in Genesis 29:27, where Jacob had to serve seven years for Rachel. The fulfilling of this prophecy began in Nehemiah 2 in 450 B.C. and the first sixty-nine weeks did not end until Jesus Christ, the Messiah, was crucified, or "cut off," in 33 A.D. That totals 483 years. (If the beginning calendar date, e.g. 450 B.C., is off by a few years, the date of the crucifixion would also be off by the same amount of years. The time between the dates would still be 483 years.) The remaining "week", of seven years, will be fulfilled during the Tribulation, the time of "Jacob's Trouble," not the Church's trouble. Jesus, himself, tells what this time will be like.
It says AFTER threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off. What is after 69? 70. The whole purpose of this prophecy is to reveal when Messiah would come, He came in the 70th week, was "cutoff" in the midst of the week. When we read Daniels prayer leading up to this prophecy the Jews were still in captivity in Babylon, God was literally finished with them (Matt 21:43) but because of His promise to Abraham He was faithful to them, God was going to end His relationship with the Jews by sending Jesus Christ and if they should accept Him then all would be well if not, desolations are determined. Mark 12:2-10

And he(Jesus) shall confirm the covenant (that was made to Abraham) with many for one week (70th week) and in the midst of the week he(Jesus) shall cause the sacrifices and the oblation to cease (His sacrifice was accepted by God to end all sacrifices) and for the overspreading of abominations (the Jews didn't accept Christ sacrifice therefore their sacrifices to God were abominable)*&* he(Jesus) shall make it desolate, even unto the consummation (end of the age) and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (a sword will follow the Jews wherever they go for rejecting Christ). Ezekiel 5:2

*&*

Thus saith the LORD, The heaven [is] my throne, and the earth [is] my footstool: where [is] the house that ye build unto me? and where [is] the place of my rest? 2 For all those [things] hath mine hand made, and all those [things] have been, saith the LORD: but to this [man] will I look, [even] to [him that is] poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3 *&* ¶[b]He that killeth an ox [is as if] he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, [as if] he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, [as if he offered] swine's blood; he that burneth incense, [as if] he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations[/b]. 4 I also will choose their delusions,(2 TH 2:11) and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; (Matt 22:2-5) when I spoke, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose [that] in which I delighted not.

I'll stop here and see where this goes.

H
humblyD

finally a correct interpretation of Dan 9:27. Thank You Deepthinker! This is not fantacy land we cant just make the Bible say what we want. We in America always seek our own compfort. What happened to I want to know Christ and the fellowship of sharing in His suffering.There is know 7 year tribulation period in scipture. Therefore no pre,mid or post. This is a end time delusion. there will be tribulation and Gods Grace will be sufficient for those who are not distracted and absorbed with everything but knowing Him.
in Him, Derek

E
elected

Waltern wrotte:
According to these verses there are 69 weeks before Messiah is cut off (seven weeks + threescore and two weeks). A "week" in this case means seven years just as it did in Genesis 29:27, where Jacob had to serve seven years for Rachel. The fulfilling of this prophecy began in Nehemiah 2 in 450 B.C. and the first sixty-nine weeks did not end until Jesus Christ, the Messiah, was crucified, or "cut off," in 33 A.D. That totals 483 years. (If the beginning calendar date, e.g. 450 B.C., is off by a few years, the date of the crucifixion would also be off by the same amount of years. The time between the dates would still be 483 years.) The remaining "week", of seven years, will be fulfilled during the Tribulation, the time of "Jacob's Trouble," not the Church's trouble. Jesus, himself, tells what this time will be like.
Well said, thats a sound interpretation of prophetic scriptures.


Quote:
Heretical teachings about the Rapture affect the believer in the same way as other heresies. These false teachers try to rob the Christian of several things: their peace and security, by teaching that they can lose their salvation; their hope, by teaching that they will go through the Tribulation; their Saviour, by denying the deity of Christ; and their authority, by trying to destroy the infallibility of the King James Bible. Knowing and believing the truth will give a Christian peace and assurance.

The teaching of Rapture before the 7 years of tribulation period in new to me, as far as i know the Plymouth Brethren were the first to teach it. As for the tribulation and antichrist or millenium reign of Christ, the church Fathers taught it and the Scripture is very clear that at the time of antichrist there is goin to be a great tribulation not only for the jews only but for the whole world. The saints will be raptured at the second comming of Christ in the air at the last tump of the Lord and Christ will descend from heaven to destroy antichrist by the word of his mouth and usher the new millenium and the kingdom of the world will become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever. This is sound teaching to me, as for rapture of the church before the great tribulation i have not yet found it in the bible.


"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God " (Revelation 15:2). Here are the overcomming saints (elect of God) who have come out of the great tribulation victorious over the beast.


"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." (REV. 20:4). In the millenium the saints of God will reign with Christ and also the tribulation saints who have not worshiped the beast will reign with Him too. Who are these saints in tribulation beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and those who have not worshiped the beast but the elect of God from every tribe and nation and language ???
It is clear that many believers will have to seal even with their blood the testimony of Jesus when antichrist will rule the world and those believers are not only jews but gentiles too.

Blessings,
Redi

E
elected


The Coming of the Lord


"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words." (Thessalonians 4:13-18)


All those christians who have fallen asleep (dead in Christ) will be resurrected from the dead first at The Secong Comming of the Lord and then we who are alive, meaning all the saints living at the time of His comming will be caught up together with the resurrected saints in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air at his Second Comming. There is no 7 years time between Rapture and the Second Comming of the Lord. The first resurrection & rapture here happens at the second comming.


"Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality." (1 Corinthians 15: 51-53)

Another scripture comfirming that when the trumpet of God will sound (the last trumpet) the dead in Christ will be raised to put on imperishable body and the saints living will be changed and put on immortal body. When does this happens? According to 1Thessalonians 4: 15 at the 2nd comming of the Lord.

Im not assuming anything here, what i said i based in Scripture, but there is one thing more important then having a sound doctrine of His second comming and that is living in daily fellowship with God and keeping our robes of righteouness washed and our spirit,soul & body holy and pure.

May the words of Paul be an encouragement to us all who seek with pure motives the glory of God,

"May the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all, as we do for you, so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints. (Thessalonians 13:12 &13)
Increasing & abounding in love for God and each-other is what we need, we can agree to disagree with each other for secondery matters that will not affect our salvation, but we need to keep the unity of the Spirit and grow in grace. After all knowledge puffs up but love builds up.


Blessings,
Redi

E
Earendel

There is no way the church is ready to be raptured yet, too many divisions and not much unity.

yet we read from Revelation 19:7 that the Bride will have made herself ready.


There are two purposes for the time known as the Great Tribulation, and that is dealing with two women; there are two women being dealt with during this time. One is the Harlot known as Mystery Babylon the Great, and the other is the Bride of the Lamb. I find this as being the theme to the Book of Revelation. With this theme in mind, let's move forward.

Two paths to understand, the destruction of Babylon the Great (which is the rule and dominion of unregenerated man), and the rise or crowning/glorification of the Bride of the Lamb to the place of rule and dominion. One shall be dethroned, and the other enthroned.

Without being too verbose here: The whore of Babylon or Mystery Babylon the Great (MBG) is the body of unbelievers in the world (unregenerated man - and they rule the world).

As we are called the the body of Christ because we are the believing. The harlot of Babylon is called so, because she does not believe and is unregenerated by the Holy Spirit , she is the body of unbelievers.

Faith is of the Holy Spirit. Unbelief is of satan the apostate spirit. To whom will we yield ourselves? To which body do we belong. Sarah and Hagar are types of the Body of Christ (Bride of the Lamb) and the Whore of Babylon - MBG. One was of Faith, there other of unbelief. From one would be the seed of promise from who came the Messiah, and from the other will come the son of perdition - the antichrist.

MBG has ruled the world since the fall of man; she has controlled governments and commerce and all aspects of the rule of man since the fall of Adam, and she is about to fall...when the wicked and unbelieving and unregenerated Godless are to be removed. MBG is the rule of man in the spirit of unbelief.

I have posted this here before, but will again:

The Church goes through the Great Tribulation for good reason, not for punishment, but for the purpose of beautification.

Let me explain...

This perhaps the biggest reason I believe that the church will go through the Great Tribulation....


A little background truth to understand first, and this must be understood, before I get to what led me to the conclusion.


Please consider 1 Corinthians 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


...But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
James 1:14

…but how do desires get corrupted?


It starts early in life before one becomes transformed into the image of Christ, before one is born again by the Spirit of God.


I believe the origin of temptation comes from satan/demons (began at Garden of Eden). I also believe that they can only tempt through the veil of our flesh by warring with the mind.


What is the sinful nature?


These satans/demons absolutely know the will of God, and before a person becomes a believer, they draw people to sin against the will of God starting very early in life...through the flesh by warring with the mind of the individual...by bringing a man into captivity to the lusts of the flesh before the mind is regenerated by the Holy Spirit.


They war against all believers this way - through the veil of the flesh that we are housed in. These demons start their work early in a person's life, before they come to Christ and try and form a person into their own image...and this is their war with and against the God of heaven, our Creator.


Therefore it is written to us who are to be the heirs of salvation:


Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,(consider Hebrews 12:4) but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Ephesians 6:11-13

We also must be aware/mindful of where and what these demons/satans will tempt us (target our minds), so that we may not be ignorant of their devices and be able to fight the good fight of faith. They primarily target and draw a person to do these:


Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21 James 4:7


Further it is written, that we are to be on the look out for this:


Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 1 Peter 5:8


Now here is a very interesting point to make and is necessary to understand why the Church goes through the Great Tribulation:

If satan/demons were bound and removed from influencing us (the Bride) in our earthly lives, would there be any temptation to sin? – I would say probably not...NO TEMPTER = NO SIN (think about that one)...but the mind still has to be renewed after Christ nonetheless.


I have always believed that satan/demons need to get permission from God first before he can tempt or even harass a saint to sin (I am reminded of the story of Job, how that satan had to get permission first, and he did this by accusing Job before God - Job 1:6-12 )...he does this to us, the heirs of salvation by accusing us constantly day and night before God, even as it written.

So what happens is satan no longer gets to accuse us day and night before God?

...so if he can no longer accuse us day and night before God, and he doesn't get permission to tempt us to any kind of sin, what do you think will happen on the earth when the work of the Holy Spirit is unfettered from satanic hinderance in our lives? REVIVAL!!!

This is what will happen on earth, and why I believe that a "Great Revival" is coming to the earth during the "Great Tribulation"

- Ephesians 6:12 will end for us, and it will end for us…and here’s why:

And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. Rev 12:7-10 (meaning he does not get permission anymore)

No accuser standing before God day and night accusing us before God means no permission to tempt a saint to sin, or to spiritually fight against or harass a saint in there work, which means there will be a global revival on the earth unfettered from any satanic hindrances!!! There will be no more wrestling in the spirit with satan and his demons in high places…their day will finally be at an end! Then there will be a revival on the Earth such as never occurred before unto this time, as the Bride of the Lamb will finally be able to get herself ready.

Consider the voice of the holy angel, what he said, when satan is cast out:

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.


What this means is the Bride of the Lamb will finally be able to get herself ready without any spiritual hindrance, without any temptation to sin, without any accuser standing before God - she will get her wedding garments ready and be holy, and without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, she will have righteous works - even as it is written that she should.

But since satan can no longer tempt and accuse, because he is thrown down, he persecutes the Bride…and her saints and prophets are sent to martyrdom at the hands of those whose names are not written down in the Lamb's book of life.

…but the Lord is with them in their hour of trial, and the strength of the Holy Spirit sustains them and fills them with a supernatural calm, peace and comfort, there will be no fear of dying for the saints, as the Holy Spirit will sustain them.


These saints overcome satan and his antichrist by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony, and they love not their lives unto death.

Nazi style holocausts will return globally, even as it written, as Christians are summarily put to their deaths, just as the Jews were during WWII.

It is all that satan has left.

During this time of unprecedented revival of the Bride of the Lamb, and during a time of persecution and mass murder of Christian saints, and in the midst of all the global chaos that will be going on during the Great Tribulation, there will be a an unprecedented move of the Spirit of God, ...such as has not been seen to this day...So powerful will be this move of the Holy Spirit - for God shall pour out of His Holy Spirit to strengthen and purify, and beautify the Bride of the Lamb, that her gown may be white, that she may be holy and pure - without spot or blemish, or any such thing...her gown will be white....many will turn to the Lord during this time in this global revival, and will do so without any accuser accusing them before God day and night!


This is why I believe that the church will go through the refiners fire of the Great Tribulation.

...

S
sermonindex

It is folly to insert a gap of thousands of years between the 69th and 70th week. This is not sound interpretation, this is added information to suit a theory.

This teaching is less than 200 years old, we are not in the habit of adopting hearsay from the likes of C.S. Scofield et el.

S
sermonindex

To Those Who Are Willing To Be Stripped Of What They Have Been Taught, This Is For You.


With the dating of Revelation, you establish the true historical prospective. If you date it early, you have its fulfilment in God's judgement on Israel. If you date it late, you have every man's idea. So dating plays a very important part in its interpretation.

There are differences of opinion as to when this book was written. These can be summed up as the "late date" and the "early date" theories. First, we'll cover the late date theory. Then we'll examine the facts which support the early date theory.


The Late Date Theory

Those who hold to the "late date," have Revelation written during the time of Domitian Caesar (AD 95-96). This date is determined by the following statement by Irenaeus (AD 130 to AD 202), as quoted by Eusebius, the church historian, in AD 325: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign."

There are things about this statement that need to be noted. First, Irenaeus did not witness this. He referred to Polycarp (who supposedly knew the apostle John). Secondly, the key part — "it is not long since it was seen" — is ambiguous. According to Irenaeus recollection, Polycarp saw "it" sometime in AD 95-96, during the last part Domitian's reign. Thirdly, we do not know if the "it" Polycarp was referring to was John, the visions he saw, the name of anti-Christ, or the book itself and we do not know if he meant that the book was written at that time or not. Furthermore, it comes to us through three people separated by three centuries. Simply put, this is hear-say.

This statement, even with all of this uncertainty, is the only evidence used to support the "late date" theory. It has been accepted by generations of people without really questioning it or examining it in light of the book itself. The late date has been passed on to us in the same way it was passed on to Eusebius, "…it [was] handed down by tradition…" Tradition is not the way to interpret Scripture.

Another statement by Irenaeus seems to indicate the earlier date also. In his fifth book, he speaks as follows concerning the Apocalypse of John and the number of the name of the Antichrist: "As these things are so, and this number is found in all the approved and ancient copies." Domitian's reign was almost in his own day, but now he speaks of the Revelation being written in ancient copies. His statement at least gives some doubt as to the "vision" being seen in 95 AD which was almost in his day, and even suggests a time somewhat removed from his own day for him to consider the copies available to him as ancient.


The Early Date Theory

So, where can we turn to find evidence for the dating of Revelation? Within the book itself! It will be shown, from internal evidence, that Revelation was written before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.


John must prophesy again.

The first point to consider in favour of the early date is the fact that John was told that he "must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings" in Revelation 10:11. Now, if Revelation was written in AD 95-96, John would have been over 90 years old and it would have been very difficult for him to travel to the various "nations and…many kings" and preach. However, with Revelation written earlier, John would have been in his mid 60's and at that age, his traveling would have been more feasible.


The Seven Churches in Asia

Another point is that John wrote Revelation to a specific group of churches in Asia (Revelation 1:4). The importance of this statement cannot be overlooked (even though it has been by many scholars). There is only one small window of time in which there were only seven churches in Asia. The early AD 60's. The apostle Paul established nine churches in that area, but only seven were addressed in Revelation. The reason for this is that the cities of Colosse, Hierapolis, and Laodicea, were all destroyed by an earthquake around AD 61. Laodicea was rebuilt soon afterwards, but the other two cities were not. This left only seven churches in Asia during the five years just prior to the beginning of the Roman/Jewish war.

Of particular importance is the message to the church of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7-13). In verse's 10 and 11, Christ told John to inform them that an "hour of temptation" was "about to come upon all the world," i.e., the Roman Empire. Christ then told them that He was coming quickly and that they should hold fast. The reason this is important (besides the fact that this was directed to an actual church in the first century) is that the first persecution of Christians took place under Nero Caesar in AD 64. Therefore, Revelation must have been written before that time.


The Temple was still standing.

One of the most compelling proofs that Revelation was written before Jerusalem was destroyed is the fact that the Jewish temple was still standing!

Revelation 11:1-2, "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

How do we know that this was the temple of the first century and not some future one? First, there is not one verse in the entire Bible that speaks of a "rebuilt" Jewish Temple. Not one. That alone should be proof enough.

However, this passage is very similar to Luke 21:20-24. Notice that Jesus told the disciples that they would see this event. They had asked Him about their temple (verse 5), and Jesus told them it would be destroyed before their generation passed away (verse 32). Notice again what Jesus said in verse 24, "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles." This is the same thing Christ told John in Revelation 11:2. Therefore, since the disciples' generation has long since passed away, Revelation must have been written before the nations trampled Jerusalem under foot in AD 70.


The Tribes of the Earth

Most writers consider the theme of the book to be Revelation 1:7. This verse is very similar in context to Matthew 24:30.

Revelation 1:7, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds [Greek word #5443] of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

Matthew 24:30, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes [Greek word #5443] of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

It may not be conclusive standing alone, but you can see that just based on the language, a case can be made that the two verses are speaking of the same event. Matthew 24:30 is a verse that speaks of the fall of Jerusalem. And that is just the case that I am making about the book of Revelation -- it speaks of the fall of Jerusalem.

Notice also the language of Revelation 1:7. It speaks of those who "pierced him." Although we know that the Romans crucified him and pierced him, the apostles accused the Jews of the act. In Acts 2:23,36, Peter says that they crucified Jesus. He continues to state this in his following sermons (Acts 3:15; 4:10; 5:30). Stephen, in Acts 7:51-52, calls them murderers. And Paul, in 1 Corinthians 2:8, speaks of the Jews killing the Lord. And also in I Thessalonians 2:14-15, he speaks of the Jews that killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets. So perhaps the book concerns itself with the Jews.

This view is further reinforced with the phrase, "kindreds of the earth." ("kindreds" is from the Greek word phule, which means "tribe"). This is a direct allusion to the Jewish tribal system. Now, we must identify, from Scripture, who those "tribes" were. To do that, we must keep in mind this simple rule of interpreting the Bible: let Scripture interpret Scripture. We can do that quite easily by looking at Zechariah 12:10-14.

Zechariah 12:10-14, "And I will pour upon the...inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son...In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem...And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart."

Obviously, this is the foundation for John's statement that "every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth (or land) shall wail because of him" So, in essence, Zechariah was saying that the "tribes of the land" would mourn for Him whom they had pierced. Who were those tribes? "The inhabitants of Jerusalem." This also helps us identify the "earth" in Revelation 1:7. According to Zechariah, the "earth" is the land of Palestine, specifically, Jerusalem. Also, it is those tribes, i.e., the nation of Israel, who would "look upon Me whom they have pierced." And because of that, "the mourning in Jerusalem" would be great. With all of this information, we can see that the "tribes of the earth" in Revelation 1:7 are the nation of Israel. The "earth" is Palestine. The land that would mourn is Jerusalem.

So, the main purpose of Revelation would be to reveal Jesus to the nation of Israel. The place of this revealing would be Jerusalem. Lastly, this revealing would be to those who pierced Him, i.e., the Jews. This is not a general reference to the Jewish nation, but to Christ's contemporary generation. That generation was destroyed in AD 70, by the Roman Legions. Therefore, the book of Revelation must have been written before that event.


The Woman

The next thing that we need to look at is "the woman" found in chapters 17 and 18. John wrote that he saw a "woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus" (17:6). The "woman" had this name written on her forehead: "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (17:5). The angel said that "the woman" was a poetic symbol of "that great city" (17:18); in whom "was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (18:24). Then John wrote, "Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her… Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all." (18:20, 21). So who was this "woman?" This "great city?"

John gave us a clue in Revelation 11:8, where he wrote, "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." This shows us, as we saw above, that John was referring to the Jerusalem of his day.

To prove this assertion, Let's look at the term "Sodom." John wrote that this is a "figurative" name. That means it does not tell us the actual name of the city, but it's spiritual condition. Once more, in letting the Bible interpret itself, we find this is a reference to Jerusalem. In Isaiah, chapter 1, after declaring that he had a "vision…concerning Judah and Jerusalem" (verse 1), Isaiah wrote, "Hear the words of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom." In Jeremiah 23:14, because of the adulterous prophets, God said that Jerusalem and her inhabitants were "all of them unto me as Sodom."

But what about "Egypt?" No where in the Bible is Jerusalem called Egypt. However, the first century generation was also in an exodus. While Old Testament Israel's exodus was from the bondage of Egypt, the New Testament Israel's exodus was from the bondage of the Old Covenant Law. The most recognizable passage that depicts this "new exodus" is found in I Corinthians 10:1-11. Paul wrote, "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." His contextual foundation for this statement was the Old Testament exodus from Egyptian bondage. He wrote that they had passed through the sea (verse 1). They ate manna and drank from the rock (verse's 3-4). He then relays how they wandered in the wilderness (verse 5), became idolaters (verse 7), tried the Lord and were destroyed by serpents (verse 9). This shows us that, just like the "type and shadow" of the Old Testament and their deliverance from bondage, the New Testament saints were undergoing the same exodus. The only difference was that Paul's generation was the reality to which the Old Testament example pointed.

Furthermore, in Luke 13:33-34, Jesus said, "[T]oday and tomorrow, and on the following [day], I must travel on, because it is not possible [for] a prophet to perish outside Jerusalem. Jerusalem! Jerusalem! The [one] killing the prophets, and stoning those having been sent to her." Then, in Matthew 23:29-37, Jesus blasted the Jews of His day for killing the prophets and the apostles. He declared that they are the children of their fathers who also killed the prophets. Then in verse 32, Jesus said that they would complete the sin that their fathers started. But the most crucial evidence is found in verse 35, where Jesus said, "upon you (i.e., the Jews of His day) may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on the earth." Then He said, "I tell you the truth, all of these things will happen to you people who are living now. Jerusalem, Jerusalem! You kill the prophets and stone to death those who are sent to you" (verse's 36-37). In both passages, Jesus told the Jews of His day that they were guilty of "all the righteous blood shed upon the earth" (see also Acts 7:51-52).

Therefore, since both of these passages deal with the same crime and the same judgment, the "great city" of Revelation must be the Jerusalem of Christ's generation. Which further proves that Revelation was been written before Jerusalem fell in AD 70.


The Sixth King

So far we have seen that Revelation deals with the revealing of Jesus to first century Israel. As noted above, "the woman" John saw was first century Jerusalem. The "kings," therefore, were the rulers of the known world of John's day, i.e., the Roman Empire. The "kings" were not ruling at the same time, for the text stated "five fell," meaning that five of those kings had come and gone. Then "one is," meaning the "king" who was ruling at the time Revelation was written. Here in this verse, we have one of the clearest proofs for dating this book. If we simply examine the list of Roman Emperors, we will be able to determine who the sixth king was, and the time Revelation was written.

Here are the Roman Emperors: Julius Caesar; Augustus; Tiberius; Gaius (Caligula); Claudius; and the sixth emperor was…Nero. Nero reigned from 54AD to June of 68AD, with Galba to follow who reigns but six months. Here we find the terrible persecutors of the Christians (at whose hand Peter and Paul were martyred), whom God used to destroy the Jews. Nero was in power and he gave the command to Vespasian to destroy Jerusalem. This was the sixth king, proving beyond any doubt that Revelation was written before the Roman/Jewish war.

Historically, Nero is the one that persecuted Christians beyond all comparison. St. John's banishment to Patmos was itself a result of the great persecution of Nero. The apostle Paul was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor Nero at Rome in A.D. 67. The apostle Peter, who was crucified upside down, was another victim of Nero.


The Song of Moses

To anyone familiar with the Law of Moses and Jewish tradition, Revelation 15:2,3 will have meaning. It says that those martyrs "who had come off victorious from the Beast" were singing "the Song of Moses."

Question: if these martyrs are Christians living 2,000 years after Christ, why would these Christians be singing the Song of Moses? Does any Christian alive today know how to sing this song? Deuteronomy 32:1-43 is the song that John has reference to.

The Jews were to sing this song to remind themselves of what would befall them "in the latter days" (Deuteronomy 31:29). the song talks about "their end" - the Jews (verse 20), and details their destruction by a consuming "fire" (verse 22), "famine" (verse 24), "plague" (verse 24) and "bitter destruction" (verse 24). God calls them a "perverse generation" (verses 5 and 20), and says He will "render vengeance" upon them and "vindicate His people" (verse 41 and 36 respectively). Why would Christian martyrs of the 21st century be singing this song about the Romans, when the song had reference to the Jews living in the 1st century? It wouldn't make much sense.

Aren't these the same martyrs who cried out earlier, "How long, O Lord, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood" (Revelation 6:10)? Who was it who had all the "blood of the righteous" martyrs imputed against them? Clearly, it was Christians who had kept their faith in Jesus, in spite of the intense persecution, and "had come off victorious from the Beast." (See Matthew 23:35 and Luke 13:33)! This passage (Revelation 15:2,3) points very clearly to followers of Christ living in the first century.

In Revelation 16:10,11, it says that the people in the Beast's kingdom "gnawed their tongues because of pain." They had great sores on their bodies along with other plagues that had been poured out on them. We know from Josephus when the Jews literally gnawed their tongues for lack of food during the siege of AD 70! And, it is interesting that Josephus even calls the Jewish Zealot forces a "wild beast" in several places (Wars V.1.1; IV.7.4; IV.9.8; V.2.5)! This point is emphasized even more by the fact that the whole context of the Song of Moses is full of references to "beasts," "serpents," and "dragons" (Leviticus 26; Deuteronomy 28-32; Deuteronomy 32:24,33).


The Time Element

Next consider the expectations of the author, Jesus Christ. He tells John to expect the fulfillment of the prophecy soon (Revelation 1:1,3; 2:16; 3:11; 22:6,7,10,12,20).

In Revelation 1:1,3, right off the bat, John informed his readers, the seven churches of Asia (verse 4), that the contents of this volume "must shortly come to pass." Please note, that John did not write that some of the events, or even most of the events must shortly take place. He wrote that all of the events contained in Revelation "must shortly come to pass." Why? Why must those things "shortly come to pass?" Because "the time (was) at hand." At hand for whom? The seven churches of Asia, specifically, and to the church of the first century in general. The time for what was at hand? "The Revelation of Jesus Christ." Remember, as we saw above, this is the main episode of Revelation.

In Revelation 22:6, John wrote that the Lord sent an angel to John "to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done." Here, at the end of the book of Revelation, John recorded the exact same message that he did in chapter 1. This again emphasizes that all of the events contained in Revelation were about to take place in the first century — not stretched throughout time, and certainly not for any future generation.

In Revelation 22:10, the angel of the Lord said to John, "Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand." Once more, we have proof that the events of Revelation were about to take place in the first century. However, another element was added to this warning. The angel told John not to seal the Scroll. Why is this important? To answer that, let's look at the book of Daniel.

After Daniel had received visions concerning his people (the nation of Israel), he was told, "thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book" (12:1). Daniel is then told how they would be rescued — by resurrection, some would be rewarded with "everlasting life" and others with "everlasting contempt" (verse 2). But then, Daniel is told something very peculiar. In verse 4, Daniel was told, "shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end." Please note that this verse says the "time of the end", and not "the end of time". There is a huge difference between the end of time and the time of the end. Now, we must ask "Whose time of the end?" Verse 1 told us that Daniel's visions concerned the nation of Israel, not mankind in general.

Next, Daniel saw two angels talking about the fulfillment of all that he had seen (verse 6). One asked the other, "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?" The answer was, "when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." (verse 7). But Daniel could not understand what they meant, so he asked again, "When?" The angel answered "Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end." Now that we have looked at this passage, how does it relate to Revelation 21?

Did you know that there is only one other place in the Bible where a sealed book is referred to? Revelation, chapter 5. How Daniel relates to Revelation is that Revelation is the opening of Daniel's sealed book!! Remember, Daniel's visions were concerning the "time of the end" of Israel, and Revelation is about God's judgment on Israel. They are one and the same. The reason this has direct bearing on Revelation 21, is that Daniel was told to seal his book concerning the end "for it pertains to many days in the future" (Dan.8:26), but John was told not to seal his book "because the time is at hand" (Revelation 22:10). The end of Old Covenant Israel was at hand. All things written had to be fulfilled by the time Jerusalem fell in AD 70 (see Luke 21:20-22). Therefore, since Revelation is the opening of Daniel, then it must have been fulfilled by the summer of AD 70.

Our next time statement is found in Revelation 21:12. There, Jesus told John, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Notice that Jesus did not say that "when I come, I will come quickly," He emphatically said that He was coming "quickly." But He also said something else. He said that His reward was with Him to give every man according to his works. Now some state that this has not happened yet. However, we must let Scripture interpret Scripture, and turn to Matthew 16:27-28 and Mark 8:38-9:1 and Luke 9:26-27.

Jesus said the exact same thing in these three verses that He did in Revelation 21. In Revelation 21, He said He was coming and "he shall reward every man according to his works." These are the exact same "comings" with the exact same "rewards." But, Jesus also said in these three verses, "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Notice that Jesus tied His coming to the lives of His disciples. He said that some of his listeners would not die until He came. But to whom is He coming? And what will be their reward? Jesus said that the "coming" would be to the first century generation of Israel (Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32). Daniel told us that the "rewards" would be that some would be resurrected to "everlasting life" and others to "everlasting contempt". Now, let's put these two passages together. Jesus said He was coming and He was going to reward each according to his works, and that some of the disciples wouldn't die until they saw this take place. Therefore, since all of the disciples are dead, Jesus must have returned and rewarded each according to his works. Furthermore, in Revelation, He said the same thing, therefore it must be fulfilled!


Conclusion

If a person doesn't believe the first three verses of Revelation (i.e., the near expectation of the events), neither will he believe the rest of the book. For if a person is unwilling to accept the time constraints of the text, the rest of the document can mean anything that the reader desires.

If the Apostle John was banished to Patmos under the reign of Nero, as the internal evidence indicates, he wrote the book of Revelation about AD 68 or 69, which was after the death of that emperor; but the gospels and epistles some years later. One of the oddest facts about the New Testament is that what on any showing would appear to be the single most datable and climactic event of the period — the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 — is never once mentioned as a passed fact.

The inscription to the book of Revelation, in the Syrian version, first published by Deuteronomy Dieu, in 1627, and, afterwards in the London Polyglot, is the following, "The Revelation which God made to John the evangelist, in the Island of Patmos, to which he was banished by Nero Caesar."

This places it before the year of our Lord 69AD

S
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To DeepThinker:

Let me get this straight, just so I understand what you are trying to say here. In order to create a different time line for the book of Revelation, you are willing to throw out the testimony of [b]Polycarp, who was a disciple of John,[/b] the Apostle, who wrote the Book of Revelation by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit on the Island of Patmos. Additionally, you are casting doubt, and dismissing the words of [b]Ireaneus, who was a Church Father and Apologist,[/b] [color=990000][b]and his historical writings of the development of the early Church. Irenaeus was also a disciple of Polycarp. [/color][/b]

[b][color=0000FF]Additionally, you are willing to totally dismiss the Testimony of Eusebius, who is often referred to as the Father of Church History because of his work in recording the history of the early Christian church, especially Chronicle and Ecclesiastical History[/color][/b]

[color=990000][b]The believing Church has never questioned the date (90-95 A.D) of the Book of Revelation. Church history is clear about the time it was written. Only the doubters, the liberals, and God hating non-believers demand an earlier date.

Who are these men you are willing to cast aside and dismiss? Men that neither you nor I are worthy of tying their shoe laces: [/color][/b]

Saint Irenaeus (Greek: Εἰρηναῖος), (2nd century AD - c. 202) was a Christian Bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, then a part of the Roman Empire (now Lyons, France). He was an early church father and apologist, and his writings were formative in the early development of Christian theology. He was a disciple of Polycarp, who was said to be a disciple of John the Evangelist.


Polycarp (ca. 69 – ca. 155) was a second century bishop of Smyrna[1]. According to the Martyrdom of Polycarp, he died a martyr when he was stabbed after an attempt to burn him at the stake failed[2]. Polycarp is regarded as a saint in the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran Churches.

Polycarp is identified as a disciple of the apostles,[3] or in particular of John the Apostle[4] or John the Evangelist.[5] With Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp is regarded as one of three chief Apostolic Fathers. The sole surviving work attributed to his authorship is Letter to the Philippians; it is first recorded by Irenaeus of Lyons.


Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 263 – c. 339[1]) (often called Eusebius Pamphili, "Eusebius [the friend] of Pamphilus") became the bishop of Caesarea Palaestina, the capital of Iudaea province, c 314.[1][color=990000][b] He is often referred to as the Father of Church History because of his work in recording the history of the early Christian church, especially Chronicle and Ecclesiastical History[1].[/color][/b]

Sincerely,


Walter


DeepThinker wrote:
To Those Who Are Willing To Be Stripped Of What They Have Been Taught, This Is For You.


With the dating of Revelation, you establish the true historical prospective. If you date it early, you have its fulfilment in God's judgement on Israel. If you date it late, you have every man's idea. So dating plays a very important part in its interpretation.

There are differences of opinion as to when this book was written. These can be summed up as the "late date" and the "early date" theories. First, we'll cover the late date theory. Then we'll examine the facts which support the early date theory.


The Late Date Theory

Those who hold to the "late date," have Revelation written during the time of Domitian Caesar (AD 95-96). This date is determined by the following statement by Irenaeus (AD 130 to AD 202), as quoted by Eusebius, the church historian, in AD 325: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign."

There are things about this statement that need to be noted. First, Irenaeus did not witness this. He referred to Polycarp (who supposedly knew the apostle John). Secondly, the key part — "it is not long since it was seen" — is ambiguous. According to Irenaeus recollection, Polycarp saw "it" sometime in AD 95-96, during the last part Domitian's reign. Thirdly, we do not know if the "it" Polycarp was referring to was John, the visions he saw, the name of anti-Christ, or the book itself and we do not know if he meant that the book was written at that time or not. Furthermore, it comes to us through three people separated by three centuries. Simply put, this is hear-say.

This statement, even with all of this uncertainty, is the only evidence used to support the "late date" theory. It has been accepted by generations of people without really questioning it or examining it in light of the book itself. The late date has been passed on to us in the same way it was passed on to Eusebius, "…it [was] handed down by tradition…" Tradition is not the way to interpret Scripture.

[color=990000][b]DELETED[/color][/b]


M
Miccah

Deepthinker,

Are you saying that everything that happened in Revelation has already come to pass, or just bits and pieces of it?

S
sermonindex

The believing Church has never questioned the date (90-95 A.D) of the Book of Revelation. Church history is clear about the time it was written. Only the doubters, the liberals, and the non-believers demand an earlier date.
The believing Church should question everything that is not in the bible.

Let God be true and every man a liar.

Jesus wasn't afraid to tell the Scribes and Pharisees that they were wrong and backwards. He said, "You make void the word of God because of your traditions."

The same is happening today, we are making void the word of God of who and where Jesus Christ is seated today by putting everything into the future because of the tradition of men who spoke falsely and CLAIMED to be disciples and are not.

Jesus Christ is ruling in the heavens with a rod of Iron. He and God the Father are in men who have obeyed Him.

You have believed in a literal Sun being darkened and a literal moon turning to blood, but your unwilling to believe the Son of God when He said, "behold I come QUICKLY", OR Rev 1:1|The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass..." OR, "Rev 22:6|And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."

Why is this difficult to hear? Why is this so hard to believe and comprehend? This is more than bible prophecy, Christs' word is at stake.

You had pulled out a wonderful illustration about Jacob working 7 years for his wife rachel, "fulfill her week", is how we come to understand the 70 weeks of Daniel.

Now Brother do the same thing for Matthew 24. Interpret scripture, don't fall into the falsehood of these false teachers today spouting off that the Sun is going to turn black. They strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

Paul tells us to prove everything, if these so called "Church Fathers" do not line up with the word of God, I must count them as dung and move unto truth.

I have been made a vessel to step out of the norm, to shake off all appearances of truth and to put on truth, little by little the blinders are coming off and the darkness is expelled.

The Church of Jesus Christ is to be a moving force in this world and it's stagnant because of the false hope that exist surrounding a "Rapture" that will never occur. What false teachers have taught in the late 18th century concerning the "tribulation" theories have blossomed a movement that has the Church paralysed, it thinks not to do anything therefore it has played right into the hands of the world.

The devil thought, "If I could just create a false hope to get these Christians preoccupied on something else other than destroying my kingdom". C.S. Scofield was a willing vessel in the hands of the devil to bring forth his gap theory of separating the 69th and 70th week of Daniel, and changing verse 27 to mean an Anti Christ making a "peace treaty" instead of the Son of God "confirming the covenant". But Scofield came into the churches as an angel of light and deceive he did.

We are asleep because of his work, we have laid down our armour because "Jesus is coming soon", why bother with this world any longer. It opened the door for more false teachings. Isn't if funny how we believe preachers when they say "Jesus is coming SOON" when we don't believe the Son of God when He said in the first century that He was coming soon.

Lets look at something that we have misconstrued about the last days:

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this wasa noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 † Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 13 † Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. 14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 [b]But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;[/b] 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

"THIS IS THAT" which was spoken of by the prophet Joel. In the last day I shall pour out my spirit upon all flesh........."

It only goes to show that Christians do not study at all or at least mediate on the word of God. Peter was answering the men who were listening to what was just taking place, he said "This is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel", and then he tells us what Joel said in reference to their supposition.

Peter goes on to say "In the last days I will pour out my spirit on all flesh".

It is here we need to rethink what we believe to be true or do we continue to embrace falsehood. Peter referred to his day as the last days, but in our doctrine we call him a liar. Oh we don't say it but it's there in what is being taught today.

Here is another: 1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that Anti-Christ shall come, even now are there many Anti-Christs; [b]whereby we know that it is the last time[/b]. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

S
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Hi Miccah God Bless you brother.

Daniel was told to seal up his vision and it was to be revealed after many days. About 500 years later (after many days) the seals were broken by Jesus Christ who was worthy to open it. In Revelation 1:1 it says that the things that were being written down were to come to pass shortly. That was in the beginning of the book. At the end of the book the same thing is spoken, Revelation 22:6.

The answer to your question is yes I do.

I may not understand the fullness of each and every verse, but if Jesus said that He was coming quickly, by what manner I know not, but those who were living in that day would have known.

I believe Him! Lets study to show ourselves approved.

S
sermonindex


To Deepthinker:

DeepThinker said:

[b][color=000000]The believing Church should question everything that is not in the bible.

Let God be true and every man a liar.

Jesus wasn't afraid to tell the Scribes and Pharisees that they were wrong and backwards. He said, "You make void the word of God because of your traditions." [/color]

[/b]

[color=990000][b]Walter responds:

So now, you are equating yourself with Jesus, the Son of God, who retained the fullness of the God Head bodily, and opeated in the power of the Holy Spirit, without measure.

There is no reason to doubt any of these men, who were willing to die at the stake for their faith. In fact, Polycarp died for the truth of the Gospel. They tried to burn him at the stake, but he would not burn, so they stabbed him to death with a knife.

These men were all discipled in a straight line from John, and for you or anyone else to malign and defame their testimony is not acceptable.

Compare youself, Deepthinker to these men who were defenders of the Faith and Church historians of the Christian faith.

Saint Irenaeus (Greek: Εἰρηναῖος), (2nd century AD - c. 202) was a Christian Bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, then a part of the Roman Empire (now Lyons, France). He was an early church father and apologist, and his writings were formative in the early development of Christian theology. He was a disciple of Polycarp, who was said to be a disciple of John the Evangelist.


Polycarp (ca. 69 – ca. 155) was a second century bishop of Smyrna[1]. According to the Martyrdom of Polycarp, he died a martyr when he was stabbed after an attempt to burn him at the stake failed[2]. Polycarp is regarded as a saint in the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran Churches.

Polycarp is identified as a disciple of the apostles,[3] or in particular of John the Apostle[4] or John the Evangelist.[5] With Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp is regarded as one of three chief Apostolic Fathers. The sole surviving work attributed to his authorship is Letter to the Philippians; it is first recorded by Irenaeus of Lyons.


Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 263 – c. 339[1]) (often called Eusebius Pamphili, "Eusebius [the friend] of Pamphilus") became the bishop of Caesarea Palaestina, the capital of Iudaea province, c 314.[1] He is often referred to as the Father of Church History because of his work in recording the history of the early Christian church, especially Chronicle and Ecclesiastical History[1].


[u]Deepthinker, me think you not deepthinker! Me think you are usurper instead![/u]

Sincerely,

Walter

[/color][/b]


DeepThinker wrote:
The believing Church has never questioned the date (90-95 A.D) of the Book of Revelation. Church history is clear about the time it was written. Only the doubters, the liberals, and the non-believers demand an earlier date.
The believing Church should question everything that is not in the bible.

Let God be true and every man a liar.

Jesus wasn't afraid to tell the Scribes and Pharisees that they were wrong and backwards. He said, "You make void the word of God because of your traditions."
DELETED

.

S
sermonindex


Deepthinker posted:

[color=000000][b]
Daniel was told to seal up his vision and it was to be revealed after many days. About 500 years later (after many days) the seals were broken by Jesus Christ who was worthy to open it. In Revelation 1:1 it says that the things that were being written down were to come to pass shortly. That was in the beginning of the book. At the end of the book the same thing is spoken, Revelation 22:6.

The answer to your question is yes I do.

I may not understand the fullness of each and every verse, but if Jesus said that He was coming quickly, by what manner I know not, but those who were living in that day would have known.

I believe Him! Lets study to show ourselves approved.
[/color][/b]

[color=990000][b]Walter responds:

Deepthinker, you have no understanding of what you just posted. One word, "shortly", that you have mistranslated, has created a "New Doctrine", that is in opposition to the very Words of Jesus Christ, spoken to John the Apostle.

Specifically, the word in Revelation 1:1 & Revelation 22:6 that you refer to is “shortly” (Greek en tachei) and means literally “in speed”. It can be understood in either of two ways: 1) the coming of Christ is always imminent; 2) when He does come, the events described in this book (Revelation) will take place in a short period of time.

[u]So, to be clear, you have found it necessary to defame the witness of the early Church fathers, comparing them to be equal to the God hating, Christ rejecting "Scribes and Pharisees"--- in order to create your own "new doctrine", the "doctrine" from "deepthinker" because of your misunderstanding of the Greek word "SHORTLY" (Greek= en tachei)![/u]

Lets look at 2 Timothy 2:15-19, to see what the believer is required to do:

15. Study to shew thyself approved[u] unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. [/u]
16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18. Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Sincerely,

Walter[/color][/b]


DeepThinker wrote:
Hi Miccah God Bless you brother.

Daniel was told to seal up his vision and it was to be revealed after many days. About 500 years later (after many days) the seals were broken by Jesus Christ who was worthy to open it. In Revelation 1:1 it says that the things that were being written down were to come to pass shortly. That was in the beginning of the book. At the end of the book the same thing is spoken, Revelation 22:6.

The answer to your question is yes I do.

I may not understand the fullness of each and every verse, but if Jesus said that He was coming quickly, by what manner I know not, but those who were living in that day would have known.

I believe Him! Lets study to show ourselves approved.

S
sermonindex

So now, you are equating yourself with Jesus, the Son of God, who retained the fullness of the God Head bodily, and operated in the power of the Holy Spirit, without measure.
The Pharisees said the same thing to Jesus once. We are sons of God (1 john 3:2) We sit with Him in heavenly places (Eph 2:6) He is the firstborn among many brethren (Romans 8:9). The Apostles were given the right to judge the twelve tribes of Israel (which they did, Matt 19:28) and the Church has been given the right to judge the world (which we presently do, 1 Corinthians 6:2).

Jesus being the head of the Church and we are apart of His body and the head can't say to the body I have no need of you, the head needs the body in order for it to function. Yes, I think we can positively say that Jesus Christ who is the head and the body are one.

1 John 4:17
Ezekiel 3:9

C
Christinyou

How do the dead in Christ go throught the trubulation, or truly do the dead in Christ go through the tribulation? If so then they must
all loose their head, including all those that are alive in Christ before and during the tribulation.

Something wrong with this post trib position or even mid.

I really want to know, not the time or even the season when Christ comes for the Bride, His bride the Church. All with no heads??????

In Christ: Phillip

H
humblyD

I pray that you will serve the Lord. Maybe you should find another site to share your prideful and hateful attitude on. Your welcome to your own opinion and your own theory's. We need to encourage each other and love each other from a pure heart.
Peace, Derek

M
Miccah


DeepThinker wrote:



Hi Miccah God Bless you brother.

Daniel was told to seal up his vision and it was to be revealed after many days. About 500 years later (after many days) the seals were broken by Jesus Christ who was worthy to open it. In Revelation 1:1 it says that the things that were being written down were to come to pass shortly. That was in the beginning of the book. At the end of the book the same thing is spoken, Revelation 22:6.

The answer to your question is yes I do.

I may not understand the fullness of each and every verse, but if Jesus said that He was coming quickly, by what manner I know not, but those who were living in that day would have known.


Thank you for your honest and transparent answer. Even though I disagree completely with your interpretation of Revelation, I do respect that you shared it with us here.

Blessings my friend!

S
sermonindex

Thank you for your honest and transparent answer.
Your welcome. :-)

S
sermonindex

To DeepThinker:

The subject title of your post is SCRIPTURES & DOCTRINE.

You have not answered my post, so I will post it again. Please, respond. Especially explain how you have come up with a 69AD date for the Book of Revelation, when Church history is clear that is was written in 90-95 AD.

also, explain how you were able to translate/mistranslate the greek word “shortly” (Greek en tachei) to mean “ right away”, when it means literally “in speed”. It can be understood in either of two ways: 1) the coming of Christ is always imminent; 2) when He does come, the events described in this book (Revelation) will take place in a short period of time.

From Walter to Deepthinker:

[color=990000]Specifically, the word in Revelation 1:1 & Revelation 22:6 that you refer to is “shortly” (Greek en tachei) and means literally “in speed”. It can be understood in either of two ways: 1) the coming of Christ is always imminent; 2) when He does come, the events described in this book (Revelation) will take place in a short period of time.


Also, please respond to your comparison that Early Church Fathers are same as the Scribes and Pharasees. Just to remind you, the Scribes and Pharasees did not believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah, and they were responsible for putting Him on the Cross, and MURDERING HIM. How on earth can you say that these born again Christians, of the early Church have anything to do with, or can even be compared to the Scribes and Pharasees who crucified Jesus Christ, specifically:

Saint Irenaeus (Greek: Εἰρηναῖος), (2nd century AD - c. 202) was a Christian Bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, then a part of the Roman Empire (now Lyons, France). He was an early church father and apologist, and his writings were formative in the early development of Christian theology. He was a disciple of Polycarp, who was said to be a disciple of John the Evangelist.

Polycarp (ca. 69 – ca. 155) was a second century bishop of Smyrna[1]. According to the Martyrdom of Polycarp, he died a martyr when he was stabbed after an attempt to burn him at the stake failed[2]. Polycarp is regarded as a saint in the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran Churches.

Polycarp is identified as a disciple of the apostles,[3] or in particular of John the Apostle[4] or John the Evangelist.[5] With Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp is regarded as one of three chief Apostolic Fathers. The sole surviving work attributed to his authorship is Letter to the Philippians; it is first recorded by Irenaeus of Lyons.

Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 263 – c. 339[1]) (often called Eusebius Pamphili, "Eusebius [the friend] of Pamphilus") became the bishop of Caesarea Palaestina, the capital of Iudaea province, c 314.[1] He is often referred to as the Father of Church History because of his work in recording the history of the early Christian church, especially Chronicle and Ecclesiastical History[1].[/color]

From Walter to Deepthinker:

[b]So, to be clear, you have found it necessary to defame the witness of the early Church fathers, comparing them to be equal to the God hating, Christ rejecting "Scribes and Pharisees"--- in order to create your own "new doctrine", the "doctrine" from "deepthinker" because of your misunderstanding of the Greek word "SHORTLY" (Greek= en tachei)!

Lets look at 2 Timothy 2:15-19, to see what the believer is required to do:

15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18. Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

[/b]

The End times are indeed here, right now, and we surely do not need false doctrine.

[b]Please, explain yourself, and why your conclusions are in disagreement with the Doctrines of the believing Church.[/b]

Thank you,

Walter


DeepThinker wrote:
So now, you are equating yourself with Jesus, the Son of God, who retained the fullness of the God Head bodily, and operated in the power of the Holy Spirit, without measure.
The Pharisees said the same thing to Jesus once. We are sons of God (1 john 3:2) We sit with Him in heavenly places (Eph 2:6) He is the firstborn among many brethren (Romans 8:9). The Apostles were given the right to judge the twelve tribes of Israel (which they did, Matt 19:28) and the Church has been given the right to judge the world (which we presently do, 1 Corinthians 6:2).

Jesus being the head of the Church and we are apart of His body and the head can't say to the body I have no need of you, the head needs the body in order for it to function. Yes, I think we can positively say that Jesus Christ who is the head and the body are one.

1 John 4:17
Ezekiel 3:9

C
Christinyou

All of Revelation is past; Pure preterism.

In 1Co 10:32 the Apostle Paul speaks of three classes into which the human race is divided: the Jews, the Gentiles, and the Church of God. In the Old Testament there was no Church of God, for the Church is a New Testament institution. As the Revelation is the book of consummation these three classes must be seen in the contents of this book. Many expositors have seen nothing but the struggles of the Church in her history in this book. This is true of the so-called Preterist school and also of the Historical school of interpretation. The Preterist school teaches a fulfillment of all the apocalyptic visions in the struggles of the Church in the past. The Historical school also teaches that the visions concern mostly the Church. These schools of interpretation leave out the Jews and what is written concerning them and their final history during the end of the age, preceding the glorious appearing of our Lord. Of late another school of interpreters has come into existence. They teach that the entire book of Revelation concerns the Jewish people and that there is nothing about the Church in this last book of the Bible. Any interpretation of Revelation which ignores the Jews, the people Israel and fulfillment of Old Testament predictions concerning them is wrong. And any interpretation which teaches that there is nothing about the Church in Revelation is equally wrong. The Church and her destiny on earth, the destiny of the true Church and the destiny of the apostate Church, or Christendom, is found in the book. The Jews and what concerns them in the end of the age, the Gentiles, the nations of the earth, and the judgments in store for them, as well as the future of the earth, a future of glory and blessing: all this is recorded in our New Testament book of prophecy.

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Revelation 1:1

With whom I agree most heartily. Christ has come and He is in His brethern, born again of the incorruptable Seed of the Father. This is not the fulfillment of the Revelation of John. This is Paul's testimony. The Mystery not revealed to anyone but Paul first and the for the Body of Christ His Bride, His Church whose fulfillment is in the future, by Christ taking Her to His Father's House, she does not have to loose her head to be in the Father's House, She is His daughter and son's celebrated in heaven by the marriage supper of the Lamb, which has not happened yet. No preterism in the Bible.

This is the fulfillment of the Word of God.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Perfect in Christ waiting for our Husband our Bridegroom in whom we already are by the Spirit of Christ in us.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

This is the Christ we are waiting for to fulfill our completion of salvation. Who saved us from distruction? Who is saving us now? Who will save us in the resurrection?

2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

Who is our life now and who's eternal life are we waiting for in body only, we are saved in spirit, we are being saved in our soul/mind, we will be saved in the flesh, our new bodies like His.

Our Life Now;

Galatians 2:17-21 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, ((((((but Christ liveth in me:))))) and (((((the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God,))))) who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In Christ: Phillip

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Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some
I can only love the scriptures brother. I am not a Greek expert and I certainly don't want to be one. Changing words is not rightly dividing the word. Right dividing the word is extracting the righteousness that is contained in it and applying it to your life. The word continuously points to Jesus every time, we go from faith to faith. As you grow in the word the word becomes deeper and what you saw ten years ago is now opened into deeper truths.

Now regarding the resurrection in which Paul speaks of. You speak as if Paul wrote these words a couple of years ago. These were written in the first century in which the end of the age had not come, I would have said the same thing about Hymenaus and Philetus.

Compare these two passages (I know you'll refute it, but for the sake of my readers I shall post it anyway.)

Daniel 12:1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2[b]And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,[/b] some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

And the follow up in the New Testament: Matthew 27:50 "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 [b]And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose[/b], 53 And came out of the graves [b]after[/b] his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many"

I wonder why this verse is inserted here at His death when it says that these saints arose AFTER His resurrection?

Do we make light of this resurrection as having little or no significance to bible prophecy, many bible teachers over look this as nothing. But it is worthy to point out that this did not happen at His death nor at His resurrection, but it happened AFTER His resurrection.

Daniel 12 and Matthew 27:50 are the same.

Keep loving me brother.

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Deepthinker had this to say:

[b]I can only love the scriptures brother. I am not a Greek expert and I certainly don't want to be one. Changing words is not rightly dividing the word. Right dividing the word is extracting the righteousness that is contained in it and applying it to your life. The word continuously points to Jesus every time, we go from faith to faith. As you grow in the word the word becomes deeper and what you saw ten years ago is now opened into deeper truths.

Now regarding the resurrection in which Paul speaks of. You speak as if Paul wrote these words a couple of years ago. These were written in the first century in which the end of the age had not come, I would have said the same thing about Hymenaus and Philetus.

Compare these two passages (I know you'll refute it, but for the sake of my readers I shall post it anyway.)

Daniel 12:1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

And the follow up in the New Testament: Matthew 27:50 "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many"

I wonder why this verse is inserted here at His death when it says that these saints arose AFTER His resurrection?

Do we make light of this resurrection as having little or no significance to bible prophecy, many bible teachers over look this as nothing. But it is worthy to point out that this did not happen at His death nor at His resurrection, but it happened AFTER His resurrection.

Daniel 12 and Matthew 27:50 are the same.

Keep loving me brother.

[/b]

[color=990000][b]Walters response to the above analysis:

I have never, ever seen such error in my life. You take the Scriptures that do not relate to each other, and relate them. Specifically, with a straight face, you try to tie six verses, three from the old Testament Daniel 12:1-3 that relates to end time judgment—ie “some to everlasting life,and some to everlasting judgment To three verses from the New Testament history of Jesus Christ, that when he gave up the ghost, that many graves were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out ot the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared to many. (Matthew 27:50-53)

#1 These verses in Daniel and Matthew are not related to each other. Why, you ask? Because the verses in the New Testament refer to saints (believers in Messiah), who had died, and were resurrected from the dead. There is no mention of the lost, who will spend eternity in Hell, believers only. Also, there is no judgment mentioned in Matthew, only in Daniel. In Daniel, the saved dead and lost dead are resurrected, and some are headed for everlasting life, and some for everlasting judgment.


The chain of events, after Christ gave up the Ghost is:

50. Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52. And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53. And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The resurrection mentioned in Matthew (above) is a “picture” of the final event later on, at the rapture. All of those resurrected at this time, after Christ gave up the ghost, ended up dying later.


I have to ask you, what type of education do you have and how old are you?

Sincerely,

Walter
[/color][/b]

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Everyone is familiar with the SYNOPTIC GOSPELS... Matthew, Mark and Luke. They carry for the the same stories, for the most part, during Jesus' time on earth, and simply rephrase the stories from how they personally knew about it and the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 all relate the same conversation Jesus had with the disciples about the coming of the Lord.

Notice Matthew 24 says the "SIGN" the disciples asked about is the "coming" of the Lord and the end of the "age", whereas both Mark and Luke say the "SIGN" in the same conversation was of the destruction of the temple.


Mat 24:2-3 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


Luke 21:6-7 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (7) And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Mark 13:2-4 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, (4) Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?


It’s the same conversation! Matthew records the same thought as Mark and Luke did, using different words. The manner in which we understand what the sign of the coming of the Lord in Matthew 24:3 is, is by realizing that same sign is noted in Luke as the sign when "these things" shall come to pass. What things? The stones of the temple being overthrown!

In order for the futurist to get this to fit their scheme, they have to have Jerusalem rebuilt and a Temple affixed on Mount Zion which will never take place.

However in 70 A.D. Jerusalem did fall and the Temple was destroyed and the city was completely leveled according to the words of Jesus in Matthew Mark and Luke, and He connected His coming with the destruction of Jerusalem.

But the futurist say it's still in our future along with the 70th week of Daniel and a host of other nonsensical ramblings that these false teachers spout out and write tons of books and DVD's on. There is money to be made in false doctrine, but when you speak the truth people run away.

Let the bible interpret the bible. Don't add anything thereto, like a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. By adding a gap, your canceling out what God was speaking.

There will always be some type of tribulation in the world for us. They that live godly in this life will suffer persecution. It's a given. "If they hate Me, they will hate you". But be of good courage I have over come the world. I am more than a conquerer in Christ Jesus. But to say that there is 7 years of a future "Great Tribulation" is simply added information to a theory that was constructed about a 100 years ago. Oh certainly we may have to endure tribulation and it may at times be great, but don't add gaps and spaces. Let the word of God flow like the river of life and it will end up at Jesus Christ. All things in the scriptures point to Him.

Saints if you don't believe me, that is a good thing. But do take what I have written and start to look at these things yourself and ask the LORD to show you if these things are true or not. And be open about it. And believe me when the answers come, it will shake you to the core. I don't know anyone who likes to have their doctrine shaken, it's a scary notion. But truth always comes with a cost and it cost me a lot to know what He has shown me thus far. I used to believe in a Post tribulation rapture teaching. How I used to use to support what I believe, I will never know, because I can't even find those verses anymore because they were never there.

God bless you saints, love me. And if you believe I am in error, pray for me. I want nothing more than to walk in truth.

Warmly
DT

M
Miccah


DeepThinker wrote:



In order for the futurist to get this to fit their scheme, they have to have Jerusalem rebuilt and a Temple affixed on Mount Zion which will never take place.



I don't know anyone who likes to have their doctrine shaken, it's a scary notion.


So if this comes to be, will your doctrine then be shaken? If so, will you loose faith in the promise? Will you repent for your wrong interpretation of scripture and speaking this over the Church?

With much, much love. :-)

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I have to ask you, what type of education do you have and how old are you?
I am a dumb fisher man. Jesus called me one day out of darkness and obscurity. I was fishing one day in my boat and He walked by and said, "follow me". So I dropped everything and followed him not knowing where I was going.

Jesus began to teach us things, His words dropped like honey and though He spoke in parables, my understanding was darkened and I did not know what He was talking about.

One day I got this notion that Jesus is the Son of God and when He asked me I told Him and Jesus said that it was the Father who gave me insight into the knowledge that He is the Son of God.

So we continued with Him and oh how He loved us, I couldn't understand why. We all wondered why He chose us, there were only a couple of qualified men in our group that someone like Jesus with His reputation would want to hang around with us. Matthew the tax collector and Luke the physician. We were lowly men, men that had no education or position, at best we knew how to sin.

But then Jesus was taken from us and died and it was a horrible time for me. I rejected Him, I even cursed and said that I never knew the man. I thought I was done for but when He rose again it was told by the women who seemed to have witnessed seeing him, to make sure that I knew. He personally pointed me out. I was at rock bottom, I knew He was the Son of God and I had rejected God's Son. But He forgave me.

After His ascension into heaven, we were told to wait for the regeneration of the Holy Ghost in which we did. At this time things were still a blur as to what was what, but Jesus did say that this Comforter would come and guide us into all truth. We had no idea what we were getting ourselves into, but since we saw Him alive after His resurrection I was willing to do almost anything. So we waited. And something began to happen which I can't explain. After that the whole plan of salvation was opened to me, I could understand now what Jesus was talking about.

In the process of time John and I went up to the temple and we saw a man there and he was in a pitiful condition and something rose up on the inside of me and I spoke out, "Silver and Gold have I none but such as I have in the name of Jesus rise and walk". I heard the bones crack as they were being restored before my eyes. And I turned around and a crowd had gathered who witnessed the miracle. A boldness came over me and I preached the gospel to thousands once again, but Jesus adversaries were indignant about the whole thing because we spoke in the name of Jesus so we were taken to the high priest.

But I was bold and spoke to them like my LORD spoke to them. I remember when He preached to them, Jesus had authority and wasn't like a reed shaken in the wind at all. He was humble and meek but when it called for standing against error and a false character He was bold like a lion. But the Pharisees took notice that we had been with Jesus and seeing that we were nothing but ignorant fisherman and knowing nothing, they were boggled. But I remember hearing about a boy who was born blind and was healed by Jesus and the Pharisees rebuked him because he was not educated either saying, "who are you to teach us?".

Age and credentials do not make the man, in this world they do. But with Jesus, He takes the foolish things of the world, the base things, things that are despised. 1 Cor 1:26-31.

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So if this comes to be, will your doctrine then be shaken? If so, will you loose faith in the promise? Will you repent for your wrong interpretation of scripture and speaking this over the Church?
Most readily yes, because I've repented and wept sore over the false teaching of a Post Tribulation Rapture teaching. Miccah, there is no support in scripture for this doctrine brother. In order to get a 7 year tribulation you have to insert a gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel 9:27 and you have to insert an antichrist in "confirming the covenant" with a "peace treaty".

If you let the 70 weeks ride out in it's proper form it ends in the first century, all is fulfilled.

The Church needs to hear this, and I pray the LORD give me the boldness to proclaim it that Jesus Christ is now in His Kingdom ruling and reigning in the hearts of men.

And thank you for that "much love" brother, I truly can feel that from you. God Bless.

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To Deepthinker:

[color=990000][b]All I can say, deepthinker, is that what you have posted here is error. I would be willing to bet that you truly believe that the Holy Spirit is the one leading you into all truth- is that correct?

How can that be when you post nothing but error? The Christian believer is not Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ had the fullness of the Godhead bodily within Him. He also had the Holy Spirit WITHOUT MEASURE.

The Christian believer, who has the Holy Spirit within him, has Him WITH MEASURE. I am sure that you understand that the Christian believer has none of the Godhead within himself, correct? What the Christian believer has is the Holy Spirit, as well as his own flesh (the wretched self, the ego) that has access to his ear, as well as Satan, who is the deceiver of the brethren.

Much of what you have posted on this particular thread is entirely wrong, and full of error. I have brought those things before you, and you ignore them, and do not respond, and then continue with additional error.

This will be my last post to you on this subject. If you want to continue posting to yourself, or the one or two others that think there is value to the error you continue to post, go for it!

May God bless you, and open your eyes, and soften your heart, and draw you to Himself.[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter.

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rbanks

DeepThinker,

I have not come to condemn you at all my brother but only to ask you some questions concerning revelations.

How do you interpret the binding of Satan, the 1000 year reign, and the loosing of Satan to deceive the nations. Also when the New Jerusalem, new heaven, and new earth takes place.

Blessings to you!


Revelation 20:1-15 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

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Here are some bible verses that could be of interest.


Matthew 24:29
[ The Coming of the Son of Man ] “Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."
THEN the son of Man returns.

Mark 13:24
[ The Coming of the Son of Man ] “But in those days, AFTER that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;"
THEN the son of Man returns.

[ A Multitude from the Great Tribulation ] "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:


“ Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who COME OUT of The Great Tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.

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And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
If you notice here that it says they came out of "great tribulation" it doesn't say, "The Great Tribulation". There is no "the" there as if to say, "Behold, it is here, The Great Tribulation approacheth".

We need to understand there is only one place in the bible that Jesus promised an exact time of tribulation is Revelation 2:10 in which He said 10 days were alloted, anything else is just hear say and guess work.

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rbanks


DeepThinker wrote:
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
If you notice here that it says they came out of "great tribulation" it doesn't say, "The Great Tribulation". There is no "the" there as if to say, "Behold, it is here, The Great Tribulation approacheth".

We need to understand there is only one place in the bible that Jesus promised an exact time of tribulation is Revelation 2:10 in which He said 10 days were alloted, anything else is just hear say and guess work.


It is ok for now if you don't want to answer my previous post.

I agree with you here concerning the great tribulation.

All those mentioned in Rev. 7 came out of great tribulation and they are the raptured saints before "the great tribulation" because they are already in heaven and "the great tribulation" has not begun as of yet.

All the saints of God who are raptured before "the great tribulation" have all been through great tribulation and have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. Jesus said in the world we will have tribulation. The bible also teaches that through much tribulation will we all enter the kingdom.

I believe these raptures saints are before "the great tribulation" because it is a number no one can count. This would be all the saints down through the ages.

The rapture that takes place after "the great tribulation" will not be of this magnitude because it is mainly for the Israel which Jesus mentioned about in Matt 24.

Grace to all!

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It is ok for now if you don't want to answer my previous post.
No not at all Brother. I was rushed away then and I am being rushed away again so I can sit down and eat. So no, I am not ignoring your questions at all. 8-)

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Quote;
"I realize that everyone who has posted on this thread does not believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. When responding to my post, please use SCRIPTURE TO SUPPORT YOUR POSITION of a Mid-Tribulation Or End of Tribulation Rapture.

I have just finished a personal Bible study on the resurrection, and the Bema judgments for Christians:


Christ is the firstfruits of the Resurrection.
1 Cor 15:20-23
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

We (believers) are the firstfruits of the Spirit, that will receive our new resurrected bodies when he comes to get us at the rapture, as described above, and we will be like Him! The rapture takes place before the Tribulation and the “Day of the Lord”.

Romans 8:23-25
23. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25. But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

When we receive our new resurrected bodies, we will be like Him!

James 1:18
18. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures


This is another description of the Rapture and the receipt of our new resurrected bodies:

1 Cor 15:52-57
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is another description of the Rapture.
1 Thes 4:13-17
13. But I would not have you to be IGNORANT, brethren (because they were), concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This passage describes what will happen when Christ comes back to redeem us to Himself. We will be perfect like Him in all ways!

1 Cor. 13:9-12
9. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

1 John 3:2
2. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Next, we find a description of the Lord'S SECOND COMING-- coming back to the earth WITH HIS SAINTS (that would be the resurrected Church, described above, from the RAPTURE). . This clarifies for us that there is more than one resurrection (Firstfruits of the Resurrection). First, the rapture and resurrection, that occurs before anit-christ is revealed, described above, and then another resurrection of the souls of those that have become believers during the Tribulation, that have been be-headed by the antichrist, AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION:

Zechariah 14
1. Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.6.And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7.But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


This describes the rapture of the people that were not saved before the Tribulation (Jews and Gentiles), that went through the Great Tribulation and became believers in Christ (saved) and were beheaded during the tribulation. At the end of the Tribulation Christ throws Satan into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years and judges the beheaded believers (described above). This is a judgment of rewards, not punishment. The judgment of punishment is the Great White Throne Judgment mentioned in Rev. 20:11 and is for all non-believers.

Rev 20:1-6
1. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Saints---Our belief in the Rapture is just as certain, just as sure, as our belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ!

In 1 Thess 4:14 Paul equates belief of the Rapture is just as certain as belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Sincerley,

Walter"


Wow excellent post. Solid

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Amen Walter, Good Post!

Follow up: Follow up: Actually brother rbanks, I don't know everything in the book of Revelation, I do know some, but not all. I am convinced that the book is fulfilled because of the time statements in Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel, Joel and many others that agree with the coming of the LORD being in the past. But regarding your questions I do not yet know. If you had asked me about the woman riding the beast that would be an easy question to answer. I am still learning as we are all learning the deeper truths of the word of God. I am not cowing out, I am being honest with you.

There even maybe different types of His coming. I am almost certain that there was a coming in judgement on Israel in the first century and then there could be another coming in our future in regards to the "catching away" the Rapture. But there is no tribulation attached to this though, all of those things concerning that coming affected Jerusalem back then. These are merely thoughts, they are not completely solid and etched in stone yet. I will leave you with a time statement from the lips of Jesus.

Matthew 10:22,23

But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, [b]Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.[/b]

Thank you for your questions, thank you for the challenge and thank you for being my Brother. God Bless

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Somethings to consider:

Test Everything. Hold on to the good" --1 Thessalonians 5:21

1) LIFTING "THE LAST DAYS" OUT OF THEIR 1ST CENTURY, HISTORICAL CONTEXT AND
RE-APPLYING THEM TO OUR TIMES--TODAY.

One problem: every mention of "the last days" or equivalents [last times, last hour] in the New Testament refers to
the 1st Century. There are no exceptions. Check: Hebrews 1:2; Acts 2:17; 1 timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 3:1; James
5:3; 2 Peter 3:3; Jude 18; 1 John 2:18.

2. SEPARATING DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK FROM HIS OTHER 69 WEEKS AND INSERTING A TIME GAP
OF INDETERMINATE LENGTH AND CALLING IT A FUTURE, 7-YEAR TRIBULATION
PERIOD.

Daniel's 70 Weeks of years [490 years] were literally, perfectly and sequentially fulfilled, within the time frame of
his four world empires. Its starting point was the Decree of Artaxerxes in 457 B.C. Its finishing point was in 34
A.D., when the time determined exclusively upon the Jews was over and the gospel was free to go to the
Gentiles. There is no scriptural warrant nor precedent for inserting a gap of any kind or duration.

3. CLAIMING THE "THIS GENERATION" IN JESUS' OLIVET DISCOURSE, WHICH WOULD
EXPERIENCE EVERYTHING HE DESCRIBED, MEANS SOME OTHER, YET-FUTURE
GENERATION.

Every New Testament use [36] of the phrase "this generation" always refers to the generation then-and-there
present in the 1st Century. See, for example: (Matthew 23:36; 11:16; 12:41, 42; 16:4). Jesus' usage in Matthew
24 was no different. He never mentioned nor inferred any other generation different from that of those he was
addressing.

4. ASSUMING THE BOOK OF REVELATION [OR MOST OF IT] IS A FORECAST OF FUTURE
WORLD EVENTS--STILL UNFULFILLED.

This assumption violates what the book of Revelation says about itself. In both its prologue and epilogue, it states,
concerning the whole of its prophecy, that it was: "at hand," and "not to be sealed up."
Revelation's total relevance starts in the lifetime of its original hearers. But it doesn't stop there.

5. SPINNING OFF ATTRIBUTES OF DANIEL'S FOURTH WORLD EMPIRE, INSERTING A TIME
GAP AND CALLING IT A FIFTH WORLD EMPIRE...A YET-TO-COME, "REVIVED ROMAN
EMPIRE."

Daniel's two visions (Daniel 2 & 7) portrayed four successive world empires, not five. The were: Babylon,
Medo-Persia, Greece and the old Roman empire. Daniel places the coming of one like the son of man [the
Messiah] and the establishment of His everlasting kingdom during the time of this fourth world empire, the old
Roman Empire. This was all fulfilled, exactly, without gaps, gimmicks or any interpretive high jinx.

6. TEACHING THAT 1ST CENTURY SOCIAL, POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS CONDITIONS MUST
BE RE-ENACTED FOR END TIMES FULFILLMENT TO OCCUR, AGAIN.

Why go through this needless redundancy and gyration? The source of almost all end times error is in the failure of
interpreters to recognize the significance of the historical events surrounding the predicted destruction of
Jerusalem, the Jewish temple and biblical Judaism in 70 A.D. ...the real End times.

7. LIMITING THE COMINGS OF JESUS TO ONLY TWO, OR THREE.

The popular use of so-called "Second Coming" terminology has conditioned us to a flawed, two-advent mindset.
Not only is this not the terminology of Scripture, it's not its pattern or concept, either. The Bible speaks of a second 'appearance' of Jesus to have come in the 1st century. If it has not happened, then when will it?? Something that was to happen 'soon' is 2100 years and counting!!!
Remember: "hope deferred makes the heart [the church] sick" (Proverbs 13:12).

8. POSTPONING ALL OR PART OF THE COMING [I.E. CONSUMMATION] OF THE KINGDOM OF
GOD.

Daniel prophesied the coming of ONLY ONE, everlasting Kingdom of God. It was to take place in the days of
the fourth world empire [the Roman empire]. That kingdom is THE kingdom which John the Baptist and Jesus
proclaimed as "at hand." What's more, Jesus' coming in power and glory consummated that kingdom when the
old Judaic system was completely destroyed. All this occurred exactly as and when Jesus said--within the lifetime
of those then living (Matthew 10:23; 16:28; 24:30-34; 26:64).

9. MISUSING JESUS' STATEMENT ABOUT NOT BEING ABLE TO KNOW THE "DAY OR THE
HOUR" OF HIS COMING, TO IMPLY NOT BEING ABLE TO KNOW THE MONTH, YEAR OR EVEN
THE GENERATION.

Scripture is precise in its use of time statements. For 1st Century believers, not being able to know the "day or
hour" was no excuse. Jesus emphatically warned "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies...get out" (Luke
21:20-21). Armies surrounded Jerusalem four times in 66, 67, 68 and, lastly, in 70 A.D.... Those who read this
sign and acted in time, escaped. Those who didn't, or wouldn't, suffered the wrath of God's judgment at this
particular, time-restricted and end-of-the-age coming of Jesus.

10. SUBSCRIBING TO A PAGAN, "END-OF-THE-WORLD" PARADIGM.

Do you know what the Bible says about an "end of the world?" NOTHING. What do the historic creeds say?
Again, NOTHING. What the Bible actually says is:

World without end, Amen -- Ephesians 3:21 KJV
The earth remains forever -- Ecclesiastes 1:4
End of the age -- Matthew 13:39, 49; 24:3

11. CONCEDING BY DEFAULT THAT ALL 1ST CENTURY IMMINENCY EXPECTATIONS OF THE
NEW TESTAMENT WRITERS, THE EARLY CHURCH BELIEVERS AND JESUS, HIMSELF, PROVED
FALSE.

If our 1st Century ancestors in the faith, and even Jesus Himself, were mistaken about something as important as
the coming again of Jesus and "the end of all things is at hand" (1 Peter 4:7) as being imminent in their lifetimes,
how can we now trust them for passing on any other aspects of the faith? They were not mistaken.

12. BUYING INTO A NEW TEACHING IN CHURCH HISTORY [LAST 150 YEARS] OF AN ESCAPE
FROM THIS PLANET, FROM THIS LIFE'S TRIBULATIONS AND FROM KINGDOM
RESPONSIBILITIES.

The relatively new teaching of a "rapture-removal" from planet Earth is a distortion of key scriptures historically
interpreted to refer to a general resurrection. Jesus specifically prayed against the human weakness for removal
(John 17:15). And His prayer is still in effect.

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To DeepThnker:

When did the last days mentioned in the Bible actually start?

What does the Bible say?

The Bible says:
Hebrews 1:2 "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son."

It says that God has "spoken to us". Who did God speak to?

When did the last times begin?
The Bible says:
1 Peter 1:20 For Christ was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.
The verse says that Jesus appeared. When did Jesus appear?


[color=990000][b]That is the correct answer. The Last days started when Jesus walked the earth![/color][/b]

I cannot believe this, Deepthinker.

Your posts are always wrong, always missing something. What is that somethiing?[u][b] What is missing from all of your posts? What the Bible has to say about every "issue" that you post on is MISSING![/u][/b]

Whoever is speaking to you, whoever is telling you these things is not of God!

Sincerely,

Walter


DeepThinker wrote:
Somethings to consider:

Test Everything. Hold on to the good" --1 Thessalonians 5:21

1) LIFTING "THE LAST DAYS" OUT OF THEIR 1ST CENTURY, HISTORICAL CONTEXT AND
RE-APPLYING THEM TO OUR TIMES--TODAY.

One problem: every mention of "the last days" or equivalents [last times, last hour] in the New Testament refers to
the 1st Century. There are no exceptions. Check: Hebrews 1:2; Acts 2:17; 1 timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 3:1; James
5:3; 2 Peter 3:3; Jude 18; 1 John 2:18.
deleted

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Now brother, I am not going to accuse you of anything, let the word of God accuse us and not one another. Our job is to love one another and let the word of God do it's job of cutting away the dross. Love is not that syrupy stuff that the Charismatics are caught up in, but love often comes in the form of rebuke, correction and a good cuff on the back of the neck.

Now, God sent an Angel to Daniel to speak to him concerning 70 weeks, this wasn't some lovely plan laid out for the Jewish people, this was it. God sent a decree saying, "70 weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city".

From the going forth of the commandment to restore Jerusalem to the Messiah a certain amount of those weeks would pass.

In 11 Chronicles 36:22 the beginning of the 70 weeks begins.

"Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of he LORD spoken by the mouth of the prophet Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, all the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me; and He hath charged me to build Him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of the all His people? The LORD his God be with him, and let him go up.

There it is folks, "That he made a proclamation....and [God] charged [Cyrus] to build Him an house in Jerusalem."

That started the 70 weeks off. And Daniel has a full history of what takes place during the 483 odd years which futurist have tried to squeeze Russia and China and whatever other country in there to fit their doctrine.

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That is the correct answer. The Last days started when Jesus walked the earth!
Amen Amen, your finally getting it brother.

Peter even said on the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was being poured out he said, "This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel, in the last days I shall pour out my Spirit upon all flesh....."

The 70 weeks were coming to a close, this was the last chapter for the Jewish people, NOT AS A PEOPLE, but as the light of the world.Before God, by the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem, gave the Jewish people a 40 year grace period to make up their minds, the same amount of time they spent in the wilderness making up their minds to believe God or not, accept Jesus as their Messiah or Jerusalem would be destroyed. Well, we know what happened, the wrath of God was poured upon them to the uttermost for rejecting Jesus Christ. Just as Christ foretold in His parables and the prophets had foretold centuries before.

Consider this verse in Psalms 22:30,31 Actually the whole chapter deals with the life of Jesus, but I want to concentrate on these last two verses because they deal with the Apostles and the Jewish people in the first century.

"A seed shall serve Him; it shall be accounted to the LORD for a generation. They shall come, and shall declare His righteousness unto a people that shall be born [again], that He hath done this". (they witnessed Jesus)

Keep studying in that vein brother, this is exciting.

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To Deepthinker:

[b]MY friend, you are so off base with what you bring here. It is not "THE GOSPEL", it is "another gospel". [/b]

[color=990000][b]The end times started when Jesus walked the earth. We are still in the end times. YES, DEEPTHINKER, WE ARE STILL IN THE END TIMES. How do I know that for sure? THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO! ALSO, THE SIGNS OF THE TIMES, TAKING PLACE TODAY, THAT SHOW THESE SIGNS TAKING PLACE TODAY, TELL ME SO AS WELL[/color][/b]

I know that this is a real novelty for you, but let's see what God has to say about this in His Word:

[b]PROPHETIC SIGNS THAT WE ARE IN THE END TIMES IN 2009[/b]

Six signs are given by Jesus

Two characteristics are given by Paul

Eleven other occurences given by the prophets to occur prior to or soon after the end of the age.

[b]SIX SIGNS GIVEN BY JESUS TO INDICATE HIS COMING AND THE END OF THE AGE[/b]

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

[b]Jesus told his apostles to look for the following signs prior to his second coming and the end of the age.[/b]

[color=990000]1) FALSE PROPHETS AND CHRISTS[/color]

Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

In the last several years many people have claimed to be the Messiah like Jim Jones, David Koresh and countless others who are not as newsworthy. These false prophets are a prelude to the ultimate false Christ, the Antichrist.

[color=990000]2) WARS[/color]

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Rumors of wars now occur frequently thanks to instant coverage by the television news media.
Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

[color=990000]More people have been killed in warfare in the the twentieth century than at any other time in history.

Devastating weapons of mass destruction (nuclear, chemical, and biological) are now available. For the first time in human history we now have the capacity to destroy ourselves.[/color]

[b]3) FAMINES[/b]

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Famine is a constant finding in Africa, especially in Ethiopia and Sudan. A large portion of the world's 5 billion people are undernourished.

[b]4) EARTHQUAKES[/b]

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

The number and intensity of earthquakes in the 20th century are at a level higher than any other time in history.


[b]5) TRIBULATIONS[/b]

Matthew 24:8-9 8All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

[color=990000]At this time the Church is under attack throughout the world (China, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Korea, Sudan). During the Tribulation the persecution of Christians will intensify even to the point of martyrdom.

Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.[/color]

Unfortunately, these 5 signs will increase in intensity and severity as the tribulation approaches as the birthpangs or contractions of a pregnant woman worsen as the delivery time approaches.

[b]6) GOSPEL PREACHED THROUGHOUT THE WORLD:[/b]

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

This has been accomplished by TV, radio, missionaries, and bible offerings and translations in most languages of the world.


[color=990000]TWO CHARACTERISTICS OF THE END OF THE AGE BY THE APOSTLE PAUL[/color]

[b]1) GODLESSNESS IN THE LAST DAYS[/b]

2 Timothy 3:1-5,7 1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[b]2) APOSTASY (FALLING AWAY FROM THE FAITH)[/b]

1 Timothy 4:1-3 1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

The rising popularity of the new age movement, eastern religions, meditation, and belief in past lives and reincarnation.
Christian denominations departing from the original teachings of the Bible.

[b]ELEVEN FULLFILLMENTS OF BIBLE PROPHECY REQUIRED FOR THE END OF THE AGE[/b]

[b]1) EXISTENCE OF A 200,000,000 MAN ARMY IN THE EAST:[/b]

[color=990000][b]A question for you,
Deepthinker---When in the 1 st Century A.D. did any nation have a 200 Million man army?[u]Answer= NEVER[/color][/b]
[/u]

Revelation 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

[color=990000][b]At no time in history had such a large army existed until the Chinese army reached that figure in the 1960's.[/color]

[b]2) REDEVELOPMENT OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE (EUROPEAN COMMUNITY):[/b]

Daniel 2:32-33,40-43 32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 40And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

The fourth kingdom of iron is the Roman empire according to Daniel's interpretation of King Nebuchadnezzar's dream. The two legs are the division of the Roman empire into an eastern portion called the Byzantine empire which ended in the 1400's and a western portion based in Rome which ended in the 400's. The toes of iron may be the 10 member nations of the European Economic Community formed in the 1970's while the clay is the second tier of member nations. The nations of Europe since the Roman empire dissolved have never adhered or formed one empire but continue as separate nations.
See the Kingdoms in Daniel chapters 2 and 7 for more information.

[b]3) RETURN OF THE ONE PURE LANGUAGE, HEBREW, TO ISRAEL:[/b]

Zephaniah 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.

[b]Prior to restoration of Israel in 1948, Hebrew was a dead language. Now Hebrew is spoken throughout Israel. [/b]

[b]4) REBUILDING OF THE TEMPLE/RESTORATION OF TEMPLE WORSHIP AND ANIMAL SACRIFICES IN JERUSALEM:[/b]

The temple and restarting the animal sacrifices are required for several of the endtime prophecies to be fulfilled:
Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Building blueprints for the temple are ready. All that is delaying building now is the presence of the 3rd holiest site in Islam, the Dome of the Rock which lies over the old temple site.

The rebuilding of the temple is therefore unlikely at the present time.
Four possible scenarios for the rebuilding of the temple:

1) The persuasion and performing of miracles by the Antichrist and False Prophet convinces the Islamic world to approve the rebuilding
2) Approval is given during the confusion and bewilderment of the Rapture
3) Some archeologists believe that the temple mount is actually 340 feet south of the Dome of the Rock site. If this proven true the building will begin. The court that is left out may refer to the building of the temple around the Dome of the Rock. Click for more information here.
Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
4) After God's supernatural destruction of the Russian army. This scenario assumes that this Russian attack on Israel is not the battle of Armageddon as some biblical students feel and that this attack occurs before the rapture or tribulation period begins. This destruction of the Russian and Islamic armed forces by God, will cause a outpouring of Christian worship and zeal amongst the Jewish people who will reconstruct the temple.

A group in Israel called the Temple Mount Faithful have obtained most of the clothing, instruments and other equipment required for temple worship. Click here for more information on their current attempts to lay the cornerstone of the Temple in Jerusalem.

[b]5) APPEARANCE OF THE RED HEIFER AFTER 2000 YEARS:[/b]

Numbers 19:2-7 2This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke: 3And ye shall give her unto Eleazar the priest, that he may bring her forth without the camp, and one shall slay her before his face: 4And Eleazar the priest shall take of her blood with his finger, and sprinkle of her blood directly before the tabernacle of the congregation seven times: 5And one shall burn the heifer in his sight; her skin, and her flesh, and her blood, with her dung, shall he burn: 6And the priest shall take cedar wood, and hyssop, and scarlet, and cast it into the midst of the burning of the heifer. 7Then the priest shall wash his clothes, and he shall bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp, and the priest shall be unclean until the even.

[b]A Red Hiefer is required for the waters of purification. In May 1997 the first Red Heifer was born in 2000 years. [/b]

Ezekiel 36:24-25 24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

[b]6) INCREASE IN KNOWLEDGE AND TRAVEL:[/b]

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

More knowledge has been discovered in the last century than in all of history combined. 90% of all the engineers or scientists who have ever lived are alive today (quoted from Billy Graham).

[b]7) RETURN OF THE ETHIOPIAN JEWS TO ISRAEL:[/b]

Zephaniah 3:10-11 10From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, even the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering. 11In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.

1984 and 1991 U.S. airlifts of Ethiopian Jews to Israel.

[b]8) RISE OF RUSSIA:[/b]

Ezekiel 38:2,4,8 2Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 4And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: 8After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Prior to the 20th century Magog or Russia was not a economic or military world power. Russia has now regained much of their power that they lost in the late 1980's & 1990's, and is a strong nation again. The time clock continues to tick.

[b]9) RETURN OF THE RUSSIAN JEWS TO ISRAEL:[/b]

Jeremiah 23:7-8 7Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; 8But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

1970's and 80's exodus of Russian Jews out of Communist Russia.

[b]10) TECHNOLOGY FOR THE MARK OF THE BEAST:[/b]

Revelation 13:16-17 16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Assuming the Mark is an under the skin implanted computer device, the technology is now available and patented at the U.S. Patent Office.
Click here to access the patent. Enter 5638832 for the access number.

[b]11) PLANS FOR THE ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT:[/b]

The United Nations, World Trade Organization, Peacekeeping actions and other agencies are preliminary steps to the formation of a one world government.

[b]This generation is the first in history that has the communications and transportation needed to form a one world government which the Antichrist will establish.

12) INSTANT COMMUNICATION AROUND THE WORLD:[/b]

Revelation 11:3,7-10 3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Of course, I know that even if you read this, deepthinker, you will continue to post the same gibberish as you have before.

Sincerely,

Walter


DeepThinker wrote:
That is the correct answer. The Last days started when Jesus walked the earth!
Amen Amen, your finally getting it brother.

Peter even said on the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was being poured out he said, "This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel, in the last days I shall pour out my Spirit upon all flesh....."

The 70 weeks were coming to a close, this was the last chapter for the Jewish people, NOT AS A PEOPLE, but as the light of the world.Before God, by the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem, gave the Jewish people a 40 year grace period to make up their minds, the same amount of time they spent in the wilderness making up their minds to believe God or not, accept Jesus as their Messiah or Jerusalem would be destroyed. Well, we know what happened, the wrath of God was poured upon them to the uttermost for rejecting Jesus Christ. Just as Christ foretold in His parables and the prophets had foretold centuries before.

Consider this verse in Psalms 22:30,31 Actually the whole chapter deals with the life of Jesus, but I want to concentrate on these last two verses because they deal with the Apostles and the Jewish people in the first century.

"A seed shall serve Him; it shall be accounted to the LORD for a generation. They shall come, and shall declare His righteousness unto a people that shall be born [again], that He hath done this". (they witnessed Jesus)

Keep studying in that vein brother, this is exciting.

S
sermonindex

MY friend, you are so off base with what you bring here. It is not "THE GOSPEL", it is "another gospel"
Since when does eschatology become the gospel?

It says that if we confess with our mouth the LORD Jesus and believe in our heart that God raised Christ from the dead and show signs of one having repented (turn from sin, baptism in Jesus name etc..) then we shall receive the Holy Spirit. For by grace are you saved through faith, it is not of works lest anyone should boast.

And then there is a list of warnings and admonitions given by the Apostles to keep the soul from straying from the faith that was once delivered unto the saints.

No eschatology in that unless your referring to "thou shalt be saved" which is obtained by those that endure till the end.

My gospel is pretty simple and straight forward, not laced with legalism, or law based works. That is the other gospel. The purpose driven life is pushing such a gospel, a gospel of works, instead of a gospel that produces fruit by the Spirit. The flesh profiteth little but the Spirit profiteth life and peace. God wants us to love Him with all our heart and we will love our neighbour, we will do His commandments and we will obey His voice, but we must love Him with all our heart, otherwise it will be legalism, it will be flesh trying to please God when Faith is what pleases Him.

Trust in Him and love Him with all your heart and He will direct your path, because the steps of a righteous man are ordered of the LORD.

S
sermonindex

Brother If you believe that we are in the end times than so be it. There is not a word that you can say to convince me, because I stood on what you believed several years ago. The signs in the world do not convince me of anything. What I read in the bible does. When God said to Ezekiel that he wasn't going to delay prophecies anymore, hey I believe that. We are now about 2500 years later after Ezekiel spoke those words and your saying that those prophecies are yet to be fulfilled?

Now either your not understanding correctly, or Ezekiel didn't hear right or God is a liar.

I will quote from Ezekiel another time statement.

Ezekiel 12:21

And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 22 Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth? 23 Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; [b]I will make this proverb to cease[/b], and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, [b]The days are at hand[/b], and the effect of every vision. 24 For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel. 25 For I am the LORD:[b]I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged[/b] : for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD. 26 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 27 Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off. 28 Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD;[b]There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done,[/b] saith the Lord GOD.

S
sermonindex

To Deepthinker:

Let me get this straight. Ezekiel lived as a Prophet of God in the 6th Century BC, 600 years before Christ came to this earth. So, in order for you to twist God’s Word to your own way of thinking, you are throwing out all prophecy after 600 BC! Your doctrine is not found in the Holy Bible.

Spceifically, in Ezelial 12:24 [b][u]No more any vain vision[/b][/u]
Who is God referring to, here? Surely not the Prophets of God, that continued Prophesying throughout the Old Testament and into the New Testament.[b] He was actually referring to the false prophets and all of the occult arts of paganism that were purged out of Jewish thinking during the captivity in pagan Babylon. He was not referring to the true Prophets of God.![/b]

Ezekiel 12:28 [b][u] shall be done[/u][/b] This refers to Luke 12:45-46; 21:34; 2 Peter 3:3-10. It is dangerous to neglect the warnings in God’s Word, for His Word will be fulfilled!

[b](Ezekiel 12:26-28). Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 27. Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off.
28. Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord God.[/b]


Luke 12:45-46 45. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46. And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:


Luke 21:34 34. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

2 Peter 3:3-10 3. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5. And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6. And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7. And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8. (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 9. The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10. But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.


[b]So, for things to “fit” into your warped timeline view of Scripture, you are “throwing out” all of the rest of the prophets after Ezekiel.

You are teaching another Gospel, that has nothing to do with Eschatology, and everything to you with your agenda to place the Book of Revelation into the time period of 69 AD, before the Temple was demolished by Rome.[/b]

You, Sir, are WRONG AGAIN!


Sincerely,

Walter


DeepThinker wrote:
Brother If you believe that we are in the end times than so be it. There is not a word that you can say to convince me, because I stood on what you believed several years ago. The signs in the world do not convince me of anything. What I read in the bible does. When God said to Ezekiel that he wasn't going to delay prophecies anymore, hey I believe that. We are now about 2500 years later after Ezekiel spoke those words and your saying that those prophecies are yet to be fulfilled?

Now either your not understanding correctly, or Ezekiel didn't hear right or God is a liar.

I will quote from Ezekiel another time statement.

Ezekiel 12:21

And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 22 Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth? 23 Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; [b]I will make this proverb to cease[/b], and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, [b]The days are at hand[/b], and the effect of every vision. 24 For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel. 25 For I am the LORD:[b]I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged[/b] : for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD. 26 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 27 Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off. 28 Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD;[b]There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done,[/b] saith the Lord GOD.

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