The book Pagan Christianity(Don't be Duped}

This book seems to be dangerous to a real revival that is so needed in our day. Reading the titles to the chapters and several reviews positive and negative, I don’t feel led to buy this book. Truth should be told in the right spirit without any mixture of error leading the listeners to an understanding that will reveal the living Christ with an end to the fullness of God.

The problems with most gatherings today are that the people are not getting the true gospel message. You can also have multitude of house churches that fall short of the New Testament pattern of worship lacking the presence of the Holy Spirit in all his fullness.

Jesus gave gifts unto men for the equipping of the saints as well as the body ministry to one another.

People who are walking away from local church buildings and becoming leaders of house churches will also be held just as responsible as Pastors of congregations. What ever measure you use to judge others will be measured right back to you.

You call yourself a Christian and start telling someone else how to live and serve God you will be held accountable for those people you influence.

The two individuals who wrote “pagan christianity” will answer to God for how they represented the church that Jesus suffered for.

Blessings to all!

rbanks wrote:

Reading the titles to the chapters and several reviews positive and negative, I don’t feel led to buy this book.

Great. After I [u]read[/u] this book and formulated [u]my own[/u] opinion, I feel led to suggest for others to buy this book.8-)

Granted, if someone does not wish to be challenged by what the writers reveal about popular "pagan" ;-) christian traditions...don't buy this book.

The problems with most gatherings today are that the people are not getting the true gospel message.

Very true.

You can also have multitude of house churches that fall short of the New Testament pattern of worship lacking the presence of the Holy Spirit in all his fullness.

"Multitude"? I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you have some first hand examples of this. If so, please site some examples and sources of Christian House Churches that fall short.

The two individuals who wrote “pagan christianity” will answer to God for how they represented the church that Jesus suffered for.

Blessings to all!

I'm sorry brother, but Jesus did not come and die on the cross so that Christians could have church in a building (church) made by man. Ask our brothers and sisters in China, or Pakistan, or Iran, or N. Korea, or Romania, etc... most of these brothers and sisters would LOVE to hold church in a traditional setting, but are forced not to. Are they going to have to answer to the Lord for how they lead His people [u]because[/u] they met outside of a traditional church building?

As for these brothers answering to the Lord for representing Christ, praise God! All who lead a House Church, traditional church, etc... will need to answer for how they lead Gods people. If you do not lead Gods people, then you will have to answer for how you lead your family, chirldren, co-workers, etc...

We are all accountable for our decisions. Lets honor the Lord above any other, albiet the traditional church, or an untraditional church. HC may not be for everyone, and that is ok, but traditional church may not be for everyone either. Lets glorify the Lord regardless. :-)

I think I have heard of the book, but I don't know who the authors are.

But with the oxymoronic title that it has, I think it won't be a book that I would read.

Miccah wrote:
rbanks wrote:

Reading the titles to the chapters and several reviews positive and negative, I don’t feel led to buy this book.

Great. After I [u]read[/u] this book and formulated [u]my own[/u] opinion, I feel led to suggest for others to buy this book.8-)

Granted, if someone does not wish to be challenged by what the writers reveal about popular "pagan" ;-) christian traditions...don't buy this book.

The problems with most gatherings today are that the people are not getting the true gospel message.

Very true.

You can also have multitude of house churches that fall short of the New Testament pattern of worship lacking the presence of the Holy Spirit in all his fullness.

"Multitude"? I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you have some first hand examples of this. If so, please site some examples and sources of Christian House Churches that fall short.

The two individuals who wrote “pagan christianity” will answer to God for how they represented the church that Jesus suffered for.

Blessings to all!

I'm sorry brother, but Jesus did not come and die on the cross so that Christians could have church in a building (church) made by man. Ask our brothers and sisters in China, or Pakistan, or Iran, or N. Korea, or Romania, etc... most of these brothers and sisters would LOVE to hold church in a traditional setting, but are forced not to. Are they going to have to answer to the Lord for how they lead His people [u]because[/u] they met outside of a traditional church building?

As for these brothers answering to the Lord for representing Christ, praise God! All who lead a House Church, traditional church, etc... will need to answer for how they lead Gods people. If you do not lead Gods people, then you will have to answer for how you lead your family, chirldren, co-workers, etc...

We are all accountable for our decisions. Lets honor the Lord above any other, albiet the traditional church, or an untraditional church. HC may not be for everyone, and that is ok, but traditional church may not be for everyone either. Lets glorify the Lord regardless. :-)

I still stand by every word in my original post even at the point of being misunderstood. You see Jesus was often misunderstood and accused by those who did not comprehend where he was coming from.

The difference in the words of Jesus and the words in this book is that Jesus was more clear with the words of the kingdom and did not mix his words with those that were ungodly to possibly mislead someone or to hurt someone who was actually for Him and not against Him.

Jesus would never criticize by using words like this book. We shouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water.

The part where I said that "you can have multitude of house churches", I was meaning that it is possible if they are not led by the Holy Spirit.

I believe their are more true christians in the underground church in China then probably anywhere but you also stated that "they would love to hold church in a traditional setting but are forced not to" by this I am to assume that this is not wrong to desire this.

We all will have to answer for our actions and I still believe we need to be careful with the words and message we are striving to get across.

Blessings to you!

Is this about christianity we have today is the same of paganism, please we know this not to be true but a lie. Biblical christianity did not steal from paganism.

Roniya wrote:
I have not read Pagan Christianity but I did find Dean Taylor's article in a recent Remnant to be quite interesting.

http://www.charityministries.org/theremnant/2009/2Q/theremnant-2009-2Q-pagan.a5w

I just read the entire article. It too bad that the writer used another person's statements about the Bible and applied that to Frank Viola/George Barna... as is that is what they were saying. That is deceptive and is bearing false witness.

Also, there was a lot of assumptions made about Barna/Viola and their research. Though I can see some of the writers points and will research those points he is trying to make, I would always suggest we steer clear of adding bits and pieces to what people are saying. Again, this is deceptive in my eyes.

Lots of strawman arguements. But thank you for the link. I love seeing different views on subjects I am passionate about. I will pray on it.

Blessings :-)

reformer wrote:

Most christians do not like the idea of people leaving there "churches" for something different other than what is currently out there. if someone decides to meet in a home they are classified as a heretic. Most Christians have to go "church" because that is there identity, they have to perform. A spirit of religion tells us that we need to get up on Sunday and go. What would happen if we came under persecution and we had to abandon our buildings and meet privately?

Brother you mention “most Christians” in your paragraph like you are able to speak for the majority of Christians and why they do things.

You also sound like you are against Christians going to a public building. I have also learned that people like what makes them feel good in what they are doing. They like to find something to justify their actions when doing something.

You also mention people calling people who meet in a house a heretic but I don’t believe a true Christian would do such a thing.

The part where you mention about “What would happen if we came under persecution and we had to abandon our buildings and meet privately” then if you are a true Christian you would still meet together anywhere you could but those who don’t meet in public want get to find out will they. Christians are not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together whether it is in a public building or in a private home. But whether it is in a private home or in a public building we are to be his witnesses to let the light of Christ shine to others.

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

The bible says that Jesus taught on many occasions in the synagogues and all through the book of Acts they were going to the synagogue sharing Christ. I remember years ago I was going to this church and I didn’t believe the people were getting the full gospel message but I stayed there for a season and I witness to people who came through the door on many occasions after the service. I am praying for the church as a whole but I will not speak against going to church in a public building or any other type of meeting place. I don’t believe in forsaking the meeting and I definitely will not speak against going to a public building where the full gospel is being preached. People need to be sitting under the anointed word of God whether it is a public building or a house church.

Blessings to you!

Brethren,

Has anyone really read my original post and my replies on this thread?

Truth does not offend those who love the truth. What majority of people are raving about this book?

Is it the people who are truly blessed meeting in their public church building or is it the people who have left the church building because of the problems they have experienced.

Jesus corrected error but he did not down any group of people who were following Him.

Mark 9:38-41 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

Blessings to all!

"Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks."

This took place before he turned towards the Gentiles. I believe, my humble opinion, is that he went there because that is where the most people were. He wasn't going to speak on a mountain top to the wind but to the Lost Sheep and he had to go where there were to do this.

It pains me to see how you are fighting against what must come to be. Reformer is correct, they met together when it was appropriate. They did not have the luxury of having 40 hour work weeks, they had to make a living for their families and this took back breaking work most of the growing season. They did not have cars to make gathering together simple and quick, they had to travel by foot or if lucky donkey. They did not live the easy life we do in this century.

my two cents,
white stone

White_Stone wrote:

It pains me to see how you are fighting against what must come to be. Reformer is correct, they met together when it was appropriate. They did not have the luxury of having 40 hour work weeks, they had to make a living for their families and this took back breaking work most of the growing season. They did not have cars to make gathering together simple and quick, they had to travel by foot or if lucky donkey. They did not live the easy life we do in this century.

my two cents,
white stone

I would like to reply to this comment in particular if you were implying this to me.

"It pains me to see how you are fighting against what must come to be. Reformer is correct, they met together when it was appropriate"

I don't know how in all my posts that you came to this conclusion.

Although I feel that many have not fully grasped the perspective of what I was trying to convey in this thread I am still very much encouraged in the Lord.

I do pray God's best upon all his people regardless of how or where they meet together.

Blessings to all!

rbanks wrote in 1st post:
You call yourself a Christian and start telling someone else how to live and serve God you will be held accountable for those people you influence.

wrote in 2nd post:
We all will have to answer for our actions and I still believe we need to be careful with the words and message we are striving to get across.

If I may use my own life… however sinful and atrocious! The Lord has shown me much in the eight years I have been divorced. He opened my eyes to my own sinfulness of not submitting to my husband but that I never had heart to submit; let alone even comply with him!! And of course when things got bad enough and things peaked, I felt he drove me out but in all honesty, I was the one who left.

If anyone had married me (I have never dated, so no worries there); but the point I’m trying to make is if anyone had, 1. They would have been marrying someone who still had not learned to submit. 2. I would have been marrying someone who was like the first one (not submitted to God either). I look back to the beginning where there were signs and if I would have chosen better and he would have chosen better, quite possibly we both would be happily married instead of still single! (Don’t judge my marriage; hang with me for this point please!!! (huge grin)

But anyway, let’s apply this scenario to people who have trouble in their churches. When we enter a church building for the first time, we never ask, “How did this church come into being?” “Who started this church and why?” Well, maybe some of you have but I never have; but I will! Because if the leadership got into a row and kicked out the pastor or they left because of some row over the non-essential part of the gospel; they are NOT submitted to God, Christ or the Holy Spirit. Period. The rest is just details and God knows them.

So if we don’t seek to know the “history” of the leadership of a church (or even a house church), we will inevitably be doomed to repeat our mistakes like, “marry” (join, attend) the same type of (house) church we left and then what? Probably get hurt all over again because number one, we are not submitted to authority (in reality, the Holy Spirit), and number two, we haven’t inquired into the history of how a (house) church came into being to recognize that they are not submitted to authority either!! And what happens when two unsubmitted people come together? Sparks fly over the least little things!

It matters not whether it’s a regular church you’ve left or a house church. Have you or I let iron sharpen iron and kept up through or have we left and blamed the spouse (the leadership)??? Have we started a (house) church because of our refusal to submit to someone else we thought lower than ourselves? Due to age or education or time spent in the vineyard? Only you know but God knows also. I believe God can show us and if we did, ask Him what we need to do about it. And then obey Him, even if He says to go back in!! Would you be willing to hear God say that???

In conclusion, rbanks wrote - "We all will have to answer for our actions and I still believe we need to be careful with the words and message we are striving to get across;" I agree because we all write or speak from our stubborness, our unsubmissive spirit, or a broken heart (maybe not broken for God). And those words will stand for eternity. And rbanks, I don’t feel this book will cause any more harm to revival than our stubborn refusal to submit to authority!! But that is just my two cents!! Oh, if it was payment on gas… it might be about two bucks now!! LOL

God bless you rbanks and everyone that has posted! (Now, I only read the first four posts, I am NOT talking to anyone in this post except myself… God knows I need to learn more and more about submitting to Him. and I'm sorry this is so long.)

Lysa,

Thank you so much for those powerful words of wisdom. Sister I have truly been blessed by your posts on SI. I can see where God has given you much wisdom because of the fiery trials you have been through.

I look forward to reading your posts and agree with you more than you realize. The only thing that I can think of where we have different perspectives is concerning the rapture of the church.

BTW just one more point concerning the pretrib, :-D

No, but I do believe that if I'm ready for the rapture during the pretib then I will be ready in the posttrib if the Lord should see fit for me to be here.

God bless you sister!

"And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers" (Acts 2:42).

I believe that the above scripture is the New Testament pattern for what the true Church should look like, and in general both the organized church and house churches have some of these characteristics, but it is a rare church that has it all.

The early church met in homes, but they also met in the temple. The early church was an organism that the Holy Spirit formed. It wasn't the work of man.

We can follow the correct New Testament pattern for the Church, but if we are not relying on the Holy Spirit to lead us in all that we do, the full purpose of God for His Church will be greatly hindered.

Many home churches set out with good intentions, but ended up as just a smaller version of the organized church.

Frank Viola has many good points in his writings. If there is one weakness that I see it is that he places a minimum emphasis on leadership in the house churches, and this is a reaction to many pastors in the organized church controlling all of the affairs of the church, while the members become pew sitters just showing up to hear another sermon.

I just don't see any one person, denomination, or movement as having the "perfect church". That is why we must stay connected as much as possilbe to all born again believers that we come in contact with regardless of whether they are in a house church or in the organized. church.

Mike

Brother/Sister Rbanks,

I have read and re-read your original post a few times now. If you do not feel led to buy it and read it, then you should not. This book for me, along with a few others by Frank Viola, have opened my eyes to what the scriptures show concerning Christ and His Church. Does he emphasize the NT pattern of interdependent home fellowships? Yes. But Mr. Viola also states that to him the wine (a fellowship being led by the Spirit) is more important than the wineskin (Structure by which one meets).

I was very cautious when I first heard of Mr. Viola and the idea of New Testament pattern of home fellowships, but I checked out a few books of his and compared them to the NT. After a lengthy time of study, I decided to be a part of a home fellowship. I have not read in any book where Mr. Viola calls anyone wrong for going to a church building. I even heard him on Moody radio station being interviewed where he told the person that if one is content in a church building fellowship, then they should continue. He just emphasized that if one is unfulfilled going to a church building on Sundays and think that there may be something more than that, then he may want to be a part of a home fellowship.

I can only tell you friend that if you really want to know what Mr. Viola believes and not just what me or someone else may say about him, then check out a chapter or article of his and compare it to the Bible (but only if you can do this in faith and not stumble).

I have purposely left out statements you have made in your original post so that you may see that I am not trying to debate you, but rather talk to you as a brother in the Lord. I hope that I may have said something useful to you and if you have any questions about this book or his others (I actually prefer "Rethinking the Wineskin" more) I would be more than happy to help.

In Christ,
Phil

LoveHim wrote:
Brother Rbanks,

I have read and re-read your original post a few times now. If you do not feel led to buy it and read it, then you should not. This book for me, along with a few others by Frank Viola, have opened my eyes to what the scriptures show concerning Christ and His Church. Does he emphasize the NT pattern of interdependent home fellowships? Yes. But Mr. Viola also states that to him the wine (a fellowship being led by the Spirit) is more important than the wineskin (Structure by which one meets).

I was very cautious when I first heard of Mr. Viola and the idea of New Testament pattern of home fellowships, but I checked out a few books of his and compared them to the NT. After a lengthy time of study, I decided to be a part of a home fellowship. I have not read in any book where Mr. Viola calls anyone wrong for going to a church building. I even heard him on Moody radio station being interviewed where he told the person that if one is content in a church building fellowship, then they should continue. He just emphasized that if one is unfulfilled going to a church building on Sundays and think that there may be something more than that, then he may want to be a part of a home fellowship.

I can only tell you friend that if you really want to know what Mr. Viola believes and not just what me or someone else may say about him, then check out a chapter or article of his and compare it to the Bible (but only if you can do this in faith and not stumble).

I have purposely left out statements you have made in your original post so that you may see that I am not trying to debate you, but rather talk to you as a brother in the Lord. I hope that I may have said something useful to you and if you have any questions about this book or his others (I actually prefer "Rethinking the Wineskin" more) I would be more than happy to help.

In Christ,
Phil

From one brother to another brother thanks for your kind reply.

I will look more into what you have stated. I will admit that I was disappointed with the title and some of the known comments he made.

I will also admit that I do not like what I have seen in a lot of local church buildings but I am very much for and appreciate the pastors and churches that are contending for the faith once delivered unto the saints.

I have also now been pastoring for several years and have seen God do some amazing things. I have seen people pass from death unto life. I have preached and prayed with people seeing them become born of God and filled with the Holy Spirit.

I very much want to see the true message of pentecost be restored to the church. The apostle Peter preached the first Holy Spirit filled message on the day of pentecost and 3000 souls were saved. They went from house to house witnessing Jesus to everyone they came in contact with. I believe if we are going to return to what that new testament was in the beginning we need to be careful that we preach and teach the word of God.

Blessings to you!

Hi Rbanks,

Pastors and their wives have said it is a really good book, and they highly recommend it. :) This is my personal experience. Have those pastors gone away from their church buildings? Probably not! They did go away knowing where many of our "church" traditions came from though and I would imagine (and personally know those that have) curtailed some of those rites and activities. :)

We have many "imaginations and high places" up in our minds that need to be torn down and our lives and minds need to submit to Him alone and not the persuasions of men or the traditions or myths of men of the past. :) Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is also liberty, amen!!

I am a homeschooler and a homechurcher and my prayer is that men from everywhere, whether from the church buildings or from the house buildings, submit to the Almighty and love Him with all that they have, for Christ's sake, and for the sake of the world!

Rbanks, may God bless you and your whole house abundantly, far above all that you have imagined,
Sarah

Brethren, Has anyone really read my original post and my replies on this thread? Truth does not offend those who love the truth. What majority of people are raving about this book? Is it the people who are truly blessed meeting in their public church building or is it the people who have left the church building because of the problems they have experienced.

I praise God for the godly men and women that are participating in this thread and that have a heart for God.

The Lord is going to get us to the place that we need to be as we seek Him with all of our hearts.

For many of us, we have a glimpse of what God is wanting to do in our lives and ministries, but we are not sure what we are to do to bring it to come to pass.

Praise God that we can pray to Him for wisdom and He will lead us in the way that we should go. The Lord is building His Church, and He is positioning His Body to the place that we all need to be.

The Lord can only give His grace to the humble. He can only teach those that are teachable, and that are willing to change and become the new wineskins that will hold the new wine.

Mike

For some these are hard times in terms of true fellowship in the Lord.

I would guess it will be this way for a long time. The devil is working [i]everywhere[/i] to destroy God's people. He works on every front. He loves it when we think this method or that method will serve well as a hedge against abuse of power in leadership. The sin "the pride of life" is one the devil used to tempt Jesus so we should not be surprised when we see it operational today.

I know of church conferences that quit ordaining bishops because of their propensity to abuse this position by the use of excessive power. Now they no longer have bishops but will have plural leadership in which reside several ministers but they will take turns of being this church's overseer. But the problem remains: the abuse of power is still something they wrestle with. Changing structure will not eliminate the human element because that is always where the devil makes his attacks.

(I have thought it ironic the Scriptures teach this hierarchical structure for the church, knowing this always presents the possibility for abusing power. God knew this when he inspired Paul to write about it. The other extreme of being leaderless, or a church not having strong leadership, apparently would pose a greater danger to the function of a church or brotherhood. Something to think about - at least I have been since I have been reading this thread and others about home fellowships.)

The only hedge that works is to "Abide in Him". This is done by putting on the armour as described in Ephesians.

My rabbit trail and understanding....

ginnyrose

ccrider wrote:

My wife and I have belonged to two Churches. One we left because they had 'special thank you dinners' at the pastor's home for those who tithed over a certain dollar amount (just the fact that they were keeping track of that and the pastor was informed was astonishingly upsetting to me at the time.) The other church we attended (my wife had attended for ten years) saw the lead pastor caught in soliciting prostitution in another state. After a short time off, not only did this pastor demand to retain his position, he had carefully set up a board of elders ahead of time who were of 'like mind' and got them to agree to a structure that put him solely in charge of everything. He was finally forced out by members who were lawyers by profession because of the felony charge. Turns out, he had been caught up in pornography and other stuff before he even became their pastor of ten years. Two years later the church still has not recovered and has yet to hire a full time pastor.

This happens more and more it seems and I wonder if this is one of the significant reasons for house churches. The bible talks of a falling away from the faith and sound doctrine, so finding a gathering place and a gathering brethren would seem to be a real challenge for a 20% remnant. I know it has been for my wife and I. And I also agree with Abideinhim that some house churches end up like a mico-version of organized church. This had been an experience for a friend of mine. I'm not against house churches but it's also a challenge to find one that is truly earnest and steadfast in the Lord. I think one reason I was led to Sermonindex was to hear the Gospel preached as it should by those who were truly and sincerely Godly men who had a heart for the flock and not their own ministry. They speak to my spirit in ways I cannot find elsewhere to this day. And I thank God for this site and you all here as well.

For some these are hard times in terms of true fellowship in the Lord.

I praise God for how he is using this thread and the many contributions being made.

I praise God for you ccrider and what you mean to the body of Christ. The main reason I continue to come to SI is to grow with God's people and to learn better how to minister to others.

The need is so great today because of the vast problems we are confronted with and so many people are hurting for a real experience of God and a real place to fellowship with God's people.

I know that there are sincere believers out there who love God and really want to be a part of an authentic place of worship and they are so rare and hard to find because real godly leaders are few in this age of apostasy.

If I was to give any advice to anyone who is in a place where they can't find a church building that is a place where God's presence is really abiding and the leadership is really sincere and godly then I would suggest at least 3 things.

1. Listen to the spiritual ministers on SI and fellowship with the spiritual brothers and sisters on SI.

2. Pray and read your bible daily and fellowship with those in your household and if God lays it on your heart then open your doors to other believers and also the lost who will hear the message of the gospel with you.

3. Always be praying and listening for God to lead you. Following the will of God is most important! Always submit to God's authority over your life and acknowledge him in all of your ways so that He will direct your path. Don't be influenced by any other voice for you must learn to know the voice of God.

Just a few thoughts. I only desire to encourage others to follow God with all their heart.

Blessings to all!

rbanks wrote:
You call yourself a Christian and start telling someone else how to live and serve God you will be held accountable for those people you influence.

The two individuals who wrote “pagan christianity” will answer to God for how they represented the church that Jesus suffered for.

Oh dear. I must admit that I am not the biggest fan of Viola, but I feel that this is a bit harsh, and bordering on hypocrisy. I realise that you are not "telling people how to live" per se, but you are certainly voicing an opinion on another, just as Viola and Barna have done in their book.

Brother, all you have to do is look at church history, and you'll quickly see the pagan roots in many things that we consider "Christian" today. For example, have you ever wondered why we celebrate the anniversary of Christ death, burial and resurrection on a different day each year? And do you know where the word "Easter" originates? And do you know the relevance of the eggs and rabbits. I know that I was shocked that such an obvious pagan throwback goes unnoticed by a church that tends towards being paranoid about "Harry Potter", while endorsing "Twilight" and "Lord of the Rings" and even "Narnia" (oh, I'm gonna pay for that one, I just know it :-o).

Thank God for the whistle blowers, who cry out for us to break away from Rome, in its entirety (even if they can use a lesson or two in tact...if your reading Frank;-)).

Thanks Krispy for your comments and I praise God for you and the blessing you are to the body of Christ.

Thanks CJaKfOrEsT for your comments and I hope to be an encouragement to you in your walk with God.

-Quoted from your post
"Oh dear. I must admit that I am not the biggest fan of Viola, but I feel that this is a bit harsh, and bordering on hypocrisy. I realise that you are not "telling people how to live" per se, but you are certainly voicing an opinion on another, just as Viola and Barna have done in their book.

Brother, all you have to do is look at church history, and you'll quickly see the pagan roots in many things that we consider "Christian" today. For example, have you ever wondered why we celebrate the anniversary of Christ death, burial and resurrection on a different day each year? And do you know where the word "Easter" originates? And do you know the relevance of the eggs and rabbits. I know that I was shocked that such an obvious pagan throwback goes unnoticed by a church that tends towards being paranoid about "Harry Potter", while endorsing "Twilight" and "Lord of the Rings" and even "Narnia" (oh, I'm gonna pay for that one, I just know it ).

Thank God for the whistle blowers, who cry out for us to break away from Rome, in its entirety (even if they can use a lesson or two in tact...if your reading Frank).
-Quote

Just so you would know, I hold a high standard to myself also.

All that worldly stuff you mention I don't focus on it at all. I focus on the true message of God and how to minister to others. I believe that all leadership who name the name of Christ must be held to the highest standard and also all people who name the name of Christ should depart from all iniquity.

1 Corinthians 2:1-5 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

2 Timothy 2:22-26 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

2 Timothy 2:14 Remind them of these things, charging them in the sight of the Lord, that they don't argue about words, to no profit, to the subverting of those who hear.(WEB)

2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

1 Timothy 1:4 neither to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which cause disputes, rather than God's stewardship, which is in faith--

Blessings to all!

Dear rbanks,

All that worldly stuff you mention I don't focus on it at all.

But, do you speak out against it? Where do you stand on the celebration of christmas? It is easy enough to 'not focus' on the bad but don't we have a duty to point out the errors? Just acting like they are not there is just another for of going along with the program to avoid making waves.

I had better put on my asbestos suit now for daring to mention most every church member's favorite holiday.

ws

White_Stone wrote:
Dear rbanks,

All that worldly stuff you mention I don't focus on it at all.

But, do you speak out against it? Where do you stand on the celebration of christmas? It is easy enough to 'not focus' on the bad but don't we have a duty to point out the errors? Just acting like they are not there is just another for of going along with the program to avoid making waves.

I had better put on my asbestos suit now for daring to mention most every church member's favorite holiday.

ws

I refuse to converse with anyone in unprofitable conversations.

Proverbs 21:19 It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman.

Proverbs 26:21 As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to kindle strife.

Proverbs 27:15 A continual dropping in a very rainy day and a contentious woman are alike.

I pray you be bless in the Lord dear sister!

Here are some verses to consider: 1 Corinthhians 14:26

"26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

Ephesians 3:7-11

"7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord."

In the first verse Paul is describing what was to happen when the Body of Christ met together. They each had been given gifts from the Spirit to mutually edify each other. The idea is that since they were a part of the Body of Christ, each one of them had an opportunity to edify and bless others with a unique aspect of Christ.

In the second verse Paul talks about God's intent and a purpose for the Ekklasia. What exactly is that purpose? Much more than if we meet in a home or building. We have been called to manifest Christ in a multitude of various ways and bring all things in subjection to Christ, that He may be All in All.

So is the wineskin (church structure) important? Yeah, because it may allow more for the local Body of Christ to share, participate, and edify other believers by using the gifts that the Spirit has blessed them with.

But ultimately, it is about Christ and not how we meet. It is about Him being magnified and glorified through His corporate body on this earth to a lost and dying world.

We may talk about home or building, but let us not forget the eternal purpose of God.

Phil

LoveHim wrote:
Here are some verses to consider: 1 Corinthhians 14:26

"26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

In the first verse Paul is describing what was to happen when the Body of Christ met together. They each had been given gifts from the Spirit to mutually edify each other. The idea is that since they were a part of the Body of Christ, each one of them had an opportunity to edify and bless others with a unique aspect of Christ.

Phil

1 Corinthians 14:26-33 (KJV) 26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Brother the main purpose of verse 26-33 is Paul explaining to them that they are not to be disorderly in their assembly. Everything must be done to edify the body of Christ. God is a God of peace and order not confusion. They were so zealous to do their own thing that Paul was telling them that if God was revealing anything to them then it would be in order and for edification. A true prophet among them would be able to subject his spirit to the order of God and not cause confusion in the church.

Brother every true assembly that is truly of God will be subject to God and his order among the saints. Here are some scriptures to consider.

1 Peter 5:1-4 (KJV) 1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Hebrews 13:17 (KJV) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Ephesians 4:7-16 (KJV) 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

If you will notice there is a measure of the gift of Christ to people God has selected for the body of Christ, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry. Notice in verse 11 that these certain individuals are noted by the word “some” meaning that they are specifically given grace to equip the saints to be able to do ministry. The bible does not teach people to just get together without being under the authority of God and that means someone must have the oversight of every assembly that is truly of God. Whether we meet in a house or building we must be subject to the rule of God and his order or there will be no true manifestation of Christ to where Christ can be all and all.

Blessings to you!

"Much more than if we meet in a home or building. We have been called to manifest Christ in a multitude of various ways and bring all things in subjection to Christ, that He may be All in All.

So is the wineskin (church structure) important? Yeah, because it may allow more for the local Body of Christ to share, participate, and edify other believers by using the gifts that the Spirit has blessed them with.

But ultimately, it is about Christ and not how we meet. It is about Him being magnified and glorified through His corporate body on this earth to a lost and dying world.

We may talk about home or building, but let us not forget the eternal purpose of God."

Brother Phil,

I really appreciate what you shared here. The Church is the "Body of Christ." Jesus Christ is the Head of His body, and the true church will manifest Christ.

We come together in His name, we pray in His name, and it is the fulness of Christ that God is after. The Body of Christ is the fulness of Him that fills all in all. The fulness of Christ cannot be found in any one man, but it is manifested in the Body.

So whether we meet in a home or meet in a church building, that is not the point, but the question is, how much of Christ is being manifested?

Mike

I went today and sat in a dying mans hospital room and interceded for him and petitioned God if perhaps he may spare him. This man is my uncle in law and a pastor for the last 15yrs or so.

A man came in to visit him, the uncle sleeps 95% of the time since he has no strength in him. The man began to talk about all the great things that this uncle has done and how many people he has touched. He seemed like he was in awe.

To me it all seemed so blasphemous, to think that we can steal the glory from God. such frailty laying on the bed, a mere vapor and mist, here one day and gone the next and to accept such glory? How can a mere man, mere broken and sinful flesh impact mankind? Such silliness, such deception to think that we can steal God's glory and right from underneath His nose. If there is any impact on man it is God alone. In fact, I have never seen God powerfully move on a persons life, nor do many miracles while the hand of man is stirring the pot, or the eyes of man watch to glorify itself in it. God LOVES to operate in the secret places, through and in inconspicuous humble and lowly people and mostly away from the limelight. :) Jesus says that when we receive mans pleasing eye then that is our reward. I would much rather have His reward than to have anything to do with the glory and the wonder of men.

All this to say, these pastors need to give up the glory and lay it where it belongs....God alone. Dear pastors you will die tomorrow, and tomorrow God can raise up another, and the day after even so too. I think there needs to be a huge reformation in this area and the priest needs to step down off the throne.

I can't help but get wildly hot under the collar when the glory gets stolen from my Master and without shame too!!

Even so Lord, glory to you alone, forever.

amen!!

Sarah

Sarah4Him wrote:
I went today and sat in a dying mans hospital room and interceded for him and petitioned God if perhaps he may spare him. This man is my uncle in law and a pastor for the last 15yrs or so.

A man came in to visit him, the uncle sleeps 95% of the time since he has no strength in him. The man began to talk about all the great things that this uncle has done and how many people he has touched. He seemed like he was in awe.

Acts 20:36-38 And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all. And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him, Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him unto the ship.

Philippians 2:1-4 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

Dear Sister Sarah,

I do not even know your uncle so I really can’t comment about him personally but if people love him and appreciated him for laboring for the Lord Jesus Christ then I see no harm in appreciating someone elses work for the Lord.

There are people who get more attached to people of God than others. I desire everyday to give all the glory to God, for I most realize that I am nothing, but He is everything, and I want so desperately to love Him with all my heart always. I can not help it that their are hirelings out there, and also people in leadership who are unfaithful to God and his message. I thank God for those who are faithful and also thank God for his people everywhere. I am not even going to comment on the strong words that you used in your post except to say that I am a strong advocate for the Lord Jesus Christ when his spirit moves on me with power. I must say though that I couldn’t even love him except that He first loved me.

God is teaching me to love people and especially his church whom he purchased by His own blood. I don’t know Frank Viola personally and I am definably not his judge. I have only read several reviews concern his book and still stand behind my original post. People would say to me why comment on a book you have not read but the scriptures says that we are living letters know and read of all men. There are many sinners who have not read the bible but when they see Jesus then they believe. The world is to see Jesus in His church and I will admit there are not many genuine Christians in most established churches of our day. The only thing I can do is to be light in this dark world and to do what God shows me to do. There are a lot of godly preachers even on SI through the years who have preached in an organized church and seen many souls saved and just because they didn’t do it like Frank believes they should have, does not mean they were practicing paganism. According to the reviews because I repeat I have not read the book, and in light of the many reviews I have read, have not desire to be in Frank’s classroom even though there is truth in the book. The bible says to preach the truth in love and he is very cynical toward the organized church and calling most of its practices pagan. Jesus preached to the people, Paul preached and also told Timothy to preach the word, be instant in season and out of season.

Lu 20:1 And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,
Lu 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Ac 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Ac 4:2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
Ac 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
Ac 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
Ac 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Ac 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Ac 8:25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.
Ac 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Ac 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Ro 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
Ro 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
Ro 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Ro 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Ro 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
Ro 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:
Ro 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
1Co 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

I will stop but there are many more scriptures with reference to preaching and also the Apostle Paul ordained elders in every city of his church plants because their must be oversight and careful watch over the flock of God.

Furthermore concerning Frank’s book, what about all the people who are swallowing everything he says as the more correct gospel and how to do things. There are people who are reading this book several times and following Frank’s teaching which is mainly about his own cynicism of the organized church by labeling most of it paganism. There are several reasons why I disagree and say this is wrong but I am going to finish up with this. I feel sympathy for the people who have been hurt by so much that is wrong in many of the organized churches but I also feel sorry for the people that are being duped by the cynicism of Frank and his attitude in calling most everything thats been done and being done in public church buildings as paganism. I read his testimony and also the sample chapter on his blog and was somewhat disappointed but it seems though that he is getting a mighty big following that seem to be swallowing everything he says as gospel. There are a lot of people now who are learning the New Testament the way Frank wants them to learn it and they are very critical of all those pagans out there who are not following Frank's teaching. Well let me just say that this so called pagan for Jesus won’t be sitting in Frank’s classroom with all his cynicism because I am going to love God’s people everywhere and not call what there doing pagan just because it may be different. The fruit of the spirit as evident that Christ lives in them should be what is most important whether in a house or a building.

Blessings to you!

White_Stone wrote:
Dear rbanks,

All that worldly stuff you mention I don't focus on it at all.

But, do you speak out against it? Where do you stand on the celebration of christmas? It is easy enough to 'not focus' on the bad but don't we have a duty to point out the errors? Just acting like they are not there is just another for of going along with the program to avoid making waves.

I had better put on my asbestos suit now for daring to mention most every church member's favorite holiday.

ws

Hi Rbanks,

I do totally agree with what you are saying mostly. And no, I don't follow Frank Viola, and I'm not supposed to, because we all see in part as thru a dark glass.....

At least you are honest about the state of the institutionalized church, I give you great credit for it. I know you can live a godly life in the IC, I did it myself for about 12yrs. The problem is that they won't stand for it, since it shows them up and pretty soon they abuse you, destroy you and run you out. :) That's the way it is. So a person cannot live on fire for the Lord in the IC anymore, unless the pastor is so on fire that they don't mind giving up their position to someone who is more on fire than them or someone who is more gifted than them than they are. That is the way it should actually be.

Definitely, my heart goes out to all those in the IC that are trying to make it work.

I think there has to be some kind of massive reformation. We have to stop giving ourselves over to all mens ideas, including Frank Viola's ideas, and we just need to get on fire, have continued personal revival in our own lives and live on Jesus ideas only. I do lots of ministry in my own town, I have evolutionists that I am ministering too, people who have familiar spirits haunting them, young women who have hung themselves and survived. Sometimes God brings these people right to my yard and in the middle of the night and I get to minister to their needs.
Laying hands on them and praying for them too.

Question: where is my work and ministry different to a mans ministry who is a pastor? Why does the pastor get recognition for his "work" and I don't get recognition for my "work"? Just a thought, I guess what I'm saying is that a pastor is not some extra special bloke who has extra special powers. A pastor does not get away with lying behind closed doors because he has a certificate in his hands that exempts him from God's judgement. I say all this because I am surrounded by pastors, my father in law has a pastors certificate and he used it like a job pass. Getting one job and applying for another.

If you can be on fire for the Lord and love people from a deep, passionate and sincere heart, preferring them above yourselves, then God bless you!! The world will never know Him until they see the love we have for one another.

ps: you said that some people can't help but exalt the pastor, but the pastor should point them towards God and away from himself. If he doesnt' then he is letting man give him the glory that just belongs to God.

In His Grip,
Sarah

God bless you all!
Sarah

Question: where is my work and ministry different to a mans ministry who is a pastor? Why does the pastor get recognition for his "work" and I don't get recognition for my "work"?

Hi Sarah,

I hear you sister and I have shared your same frustration, but it is much better to receive honor from the Lord than from men. Those that receive honor from men have already received their reward. I love ministries that give to people that can't give you anything in return such as street ministry, prison ministry, and just ministering to the poor and needy. God has a much better compensation than anything that man can do for you. His presence and good pleasure is worth it all.

Mike

rbanks,

I am wondering why you thought it necessary to add to the title of this thread "Don't be duped"?

After all that has been spoken here, are you know saying that those of us who like the book by Viola are "being duped"?

Sarah4Him wrote:
Hi Rbanks,

Question: where is my work and ministry different to a mans ministry who is a pastor? Why does the pastor get recognition for his "work" and I don't get recognition for my "work"? Just a thought, I guess what I'm saying is that a pastor is not some extra special bloke who has extra special powers. A pastor does not get away with lying behind closed doors because he has a certificate in his hands that exempts him from God's judgement. I say all this because I am surrounded by pastors, my father in law has a pastors certificate and he used it like a job pass. Getting one job and applying for another.

If you can be on fire for the Lord and love people from a deep, passionate and sincere heart, preferring them above yourselves, then God bless you!! The world will never know Him until they see the love we have for one another.

ps: you said that some people can't help but exalt the pastor, but the pastor should point them towards God and away from himself. If he doesnt' then he is letting man give him the glory that just belongs to God.

In His Grip,
Sarah

God bless you all!
Sarah

The Pastor(Shepherd) must be called of God. Although there are some in the IC that are sincerely for the church of Jesus Christ there are many hirelings. We live in a sin cursed world and the only safety is under the blood of Jesus. I have been hurt also many times and there are very few pastors that I even fellowship with but I have learned to be content with the fellowship with my Lord.

God has also taught me to love others in spite of their attitudes toward me or their many faults. I think the greatest sign of maturity is how you handle adversity. I use to could not understand how Jesus could love Peter, Judas, the person who gave him the scourging, and the people who were full of hatred crying crucify Him. I would pray Lord fill me with your spirit and your nature, transform me Lord to be like you. I went through so many hurts and difficult situations that I will spare you the details only to say that people, what they say about me or do, doesn’t hurt me like it use to.

The Lord has even taught me to live above the circumstances of this life. I know now that nothing can touch the life I have in Jesus and that every situation that comes into my path that God has allowed and given me the opportunity to be a blessing and to make him known. There is no bitterness anymore, praise God, he gives a peace that passes all understanding. I believe we will be put in places that will cause us to grow, mature, and it will demand the anointing of God. The anointed of God must be able to stand with the light of Jesus to a lost and needy world not thinking about themselves but only the glory of the Christ. We must not run from nothing(only sin), not the devil, nor let him stop us, but we must resist him steadfast in the faith. We must know to resist him at all times but never run from him. We must draw nigh to God and God draws near to us and the devil does the running from us in the name of Jesus, Hallelujah. We are not fighting against flesh and blood but against principalities and spiritual wickedness in high places and we must have on the full armor of God.

Sister your work that God gives you to do in His eyes is just as important as anyone else. There is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus for we are one.

Grace to you!

Miccah wrote:
rbanks,

I am wondering why you thought it necessary to add to the title of this thread "Don't be duped"?

After all that has been spoken here, are you know saying that those of us who like the book by Viola are "being duped"?

I am glad to answer that question even though there are so many who don't like to answer questions nor bother to try and understand all my posts except to read into something I didn't say.

The answer is no, not necessarily, people like things for different reasons. There is a lot of truth for a lot of hurting people but the whole paganism part is doing damage to the body of Christ.This is his opinion and it does not promote good attitudes toward the people in the IC's that also love God.

Grace to you!

decided to take my comment down, its just not worth it.

rdg

I must say i found the book very helpful.the author had no particular axe to grind or push me away from my faith.It really challenges long held traditions that are un biblical.Remember not all traditions are bad!
however many church practises have no foundation for what Jesus intended church to be,In My view anyway. :-)

rbanks wrote:

I am glad to answer that question even though there are so many who don't like to answer questions nor bother to try and understand all my posts except to read into something I didn't say.

Thank you my brother. This book is of no division between us. The love that you have shown towards us all in these posts is something that we can all learn from. This is why it took me aback when I saw that you changed the title to something that may have been read into differently then you come across.

Blessings to you my brother. May the Lord continue you on His path. :-)

Hi Mike,
I agree, in fact in my personal opinion God uses those people who are not seen by men, much more than those who are "seen" by men, or are in the limelight.

God bless,
Sarah

Hi Sarah, I hear you sister and I have shared your same frustration, but it is much better to receive honor from the Lord than from men. Those that receive honor from men have already received their reward. I love ministries that give to people that can't give you anything in return such as street ministry, prison ministry, and just ministering to the poor and needy. God has a much better compensation than anything that man can do for you. His presence and good pleasure is worth it all. Mike

I must say i found the book very helpful.the author had no particular axe to grind or push me away from my faith.

I agree with the above comment. In fact, if my memory serves me well Frank actually states in the introduction of Pagan Christianity that he does not agree with using the information in the book to sway people from IC and he doesn't agree with people using it to do that very thing.

Frank states that he and George Barna....who actually did most of the work for historical references....and George Barna actually is from the IC.....they decided to write the book together because there isn't another documentation that explains the roots of all these traditions.

I'm not sure how much I like Frank Viola actually, but the book is filled with historical references actually.

God bless,
Sarah

Sarah4Him wrote:

I must say i found the book very helpful.the author had no particular axe to grind or push me away from my faith.

I agree with the above comment. In fact, if my memory serves me well Frank actually states in the introduction of Pagan Christianity that he does not agree with using the information in the book to sway people from IC and he doesn't agree with people using it to do that very thing.

Sarah

Oh, that is such a real good introduction and what a friend Frank is to all the good pastors and believers in the organized churches. This is like a very prominent man coming into community and sends a letter to all the people in that community saying hey I don’t want you to use this information to get people to leave the first church on main street, but I would like for you to read the next several pages of this letter because you need to know that the first church is doing it all wrong. They are practicing stuff that is rooted in paganism. I mean all the churches like them down through the ages have been doing it all wrong since the days of Jesus.

The pastor preaching, tithing , leading singing, and so forth are copied from pagans so they are not doing it like Jesus wants us to do it. Here is how it really should be done, hey I should know because I am the expert here and I’ve done all this research so take my word for it. Hey if you really want to stay in the organized church you can, but I’m telling you, they are not doing it biblically like the bible says. Hey, you don’t have to have a leader over you, you don’t need to order a service, just come together and do what ever you think the spirit wants you to do.

Hey we follow 1 Cor. 14:26 never mind that Paul was trying to establish order beginning with this passage. Hey don’t worry about the five fold ministry in Eph 4 because this is just functions and not particular individuals gifted by God. Hey hang in there we got some more books like this coming because we want to teach you what the bible really says. Don’t worry about all the men and women of God in the past who did a lot of good works for the Lord and the fact that they never knew that they were practicing paganism. We have learned better because we know more than they did now.

Grace to you!

rbanks wrote:

Oh, that is such a real good introduction and what a friend Frank is to all the good pastors and believers in the organized churches. This is like a very prominent man coming into community and sends a letter to all the people in that community saying hey I don’t want you to use this information to get people to leave the first church on main street, but I would like for you to read the next several pages of this letter because you need to know that the first church is doing it all wrong. They are practicing stuff that is rooted in paganism. I mean all the churches like them down through the ages have been doing it all wrong since the days of Jesus.

The pastor preaching, tithing , leading singing, and so forth are copied from pagans so they are not doing it like Jesus wants us to do it. Here is how it really should be done, hey I should know because I am the expert here and I’ve done all this research so take my word for it. Hey if you really want to stay in the organized church you can, but I’m telling you, they are not doing it biblically like the bible says. Hey, you don’t have to have a leader over you, you don’t need to order a service, just come together and do what ever you think the spirit wants you to do.

Hey we follow 1 Cor. 14:26 never mind that Paul was trying to establish order beginning with this passage. Hey don’t worry about the five fold ministry in Eph 4 because this is just functions and not particular individuals gifted by God. Hey hang in there we got some more books like this coming because we want to teach you what the bible really says. Don’t worry about all the men and women of God in the past who did a lot of good works for the Lord and the fact that they never knew that they were practicing paganism. We have learned better because we know more than they did now.

rbanks. We get it. You don't recommend the book.

[i]Oh, that is such a real good introduction and what a friend Frank is to all the good pastors and believers in the organized churches. This is like a very prominent man coming into community and sends a letter to all the people in that community saying hey I don’t want you to use this information to get people to leave the first church on main street, but I would like for you to read the next several pages of this letter because you need to know that the first church is doing it all wrong. They are practicing stuff that is rooted in paganism. I mean all the churches like them down through the ages have been doing it all wrong since the days of Jesus.

The pastor preaching, tithing , leading singing, and so forth are copied from pagans so they are not doing it like Jesus wants us to do it. Here is how it really should be done, hey I should know because I am the expert here and I’ve done all this research so take my word for it. Hey if you really want to stay in the organized church you can, but I’m telling you, they are not doing it biblically like the bible says. Hey, you don’t have to have a leader over you, you don’t need to order a service, just come together and do what ever you think the spirit wants you to do.

Hey we follow 1 Cor. 14:26 never mind that Paul was trying to establish order beginning with this passage. Hey don’t worry about the five fold ministry in Eph 4 because this is just functions and not particular individuals gifted by God. Hey hang in there we got some more books like this coming because we want to teach you what the bible really says. Don’t worry about all the men and women of God in the past who did a lot of good works for the Lord and the fact that they never knew that they were practicing paganism. We have learned better because we know more than they did now.

Grace to you![/i]

Sarcasm?

From your original post;

[i]The problems with most gatherings today are _________[/i]"

There is no difference between the sarcasm on the one hand and your hypocrisy on the other. Sorry if that sounds unduly harsh. Rbanks you got off completely on the wrong foot here. Giving your opinion on something that you at best scanned the chapter headings of and at worst took others thought's for is frankly the height of duplicity.

If you replaced "Pagan Christianity" with the scriptures and gave them this same kind of treatment, would you expect anyone to hear you?

Read the book if you are going to give a commentary on it.

A search through the site will provide a handful of threads from those who have indeed read the book. I am not one of them and I have no opinion one way or the other.

Mike,
Do you have a calling to write satire??? I loved it!

I googled 'pagan Christianity' and was appalled at what I found - such gross ignorance on the part of those writers, not the ones of this book. So, I ordered it from Amazon and hope to read it for myself.

What I found on the web left me shaking my head....those writers have no clue of Judaism, have no clue of temple worship, the OT law.

My position is that God made all things good and are to be enjoyed. BUT the enemy came along and perverted it all. So regardless what you have its orgins can be traced back to God. The enemy cannot come up with anything original - he is not that smart. He is fighting God and will use what God created that is wonderful and perverted it, sometimes into forms that cannot be recognized as being originally from God. This is the mindset I will take into reading this book once it arrives. Titus 1:15.

My thoughts,
ginnyrose

Good morning everyone,

While I don't post very often on these threads, I do frequent them often and enjoy reading the discussions, such as this one--very interesting indeed. In regards to this discussion, I recently "listened" to the audio version of the book "Pagan Christianity". It can be purchased here:

http://christianaudio.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=pagan+christianity&x=6&y=8

As for my opinion of the book (for what it's worth), I found it to be very informative, to say the least. The author goes to great pains to lay out the history of why we do church the way we do. The book is a wonderful source of history, covering everything from the early church, up through the reformation, on into the 19th century revival/evangelistic movement, and right on into the modern church of today.

The book covers the "why" of the way we do things--why do we gather on Sundays, say a prayer, sing three songs, take up an offering, preach a sermon, have an alter call, sing another song, say another prayer, and go home until next week, when we gather to do it all over again. The book answers the questions of where did this "form" of "worship" come from. It also goes on to compare the current modern methods of "worship" with what is written in the Scriptures concerning the subject. The book offers a lot of food for thought, which I believe is the author's primary motive.

Anyway, hope this helps anyone on the fence about reading it, and I hope everyone has a blessed day in the Lord.

Billy Evans

To all my brothers and sisters,

I just got back from going out of town to a women’s prison for a visit. I also have a fellowship meeting tonight and have two preaching services tomorrow so I’m sorry that I may not be able to respond to everyone’s post.

I praise God for you brother Mike for your work as a moderator and all that you mean to the body of Christ and I’m sorry you saw it as you did and I will not try to defend myself. I am sorry if I offended anyone but I found it easy to write the way I did because of the introduction and then proceeding to call those entire things pagan just because they can’t be found specifically in the bible. Everything is not pagan just because it’s not written word for word in the bible. However I do believe a lot is pagan going on in religious settings today but I believe we must be accurate in what they are. It is also alright brother for you to be harsh to me and I accept your apology before you did it and there are no hard feelings on my part toward you but only love in the Lord. I will give the hypocrisy thought more consideration, but I will not try to defend myself if you think I was, but let the Lord be my judge.

Reformer, I still hope to be of encouragement to you in the future and have considered your comment. I ‘m not going to use the scripture where Jesus said “call no man a fool” because then you might think I was accusing you of directly calling me a fool but I love you reformer and believe you love me and wouldn’t think that you would directly call me a fool. I do consider myself being called a fool for Christ though and thought of this scripture.

1 Corinthians 3:18-19 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Your name on SI being reformer, I thought you might be part of the reformation movement and decided to give you a site to check out and also their review on the book. Please let me know what you think- you want offend me at all.

http://www.reformation21.org/shelf-life/pagan-christianity-exploring-roots-of-our-church-practices.php

Micah, you have been an inspiration to me with some very kind words to me, even if you haven’t agreed altogether with me, and I pray the Lord will show you the kindness you have shown me and more so.

Finally, I have said all I feel I need to say and am sorry if I offended anyone. I have peace concerning my obligation as a christian concerning this book and I know that the Holy Spirit will lead me into all truth and show me what pagan is and what is not pagan.

I do hope you all the best in Jesus!

Love you brother :-)

Dear rbanks,

Since you made us talk so long on the topic the least you can do is read the book and then come back and give us a long rant. :) At least this way we all would have got something from the conversation. :)

God bless you all,
Sarah

"I praise God for you brother Mike for your work as a moderator and all that you mean to the body of Christ and I’m sorry you saw it as you did and I will not try to defend myself. I am sorry if I offended anyone but I found it easy to write the way I did because of the introduction and then proceeding to call those entire things pagan just because they can’t be found specifically in the bible. Everything is not pagan just because it’s not written word for word in the bible. However I do believe a lot is pagan going on in religious settings today but I believe we must be accurate in what they are. It is also alright brother for you to be harsh to me and I accept your apology before you did it and there are no hard feelings on my part toward you but only love in the Lord. I will give the hypocrisy thought more consideration, but I will not try to defend myself if you think I was, but let the Lord be my judge."

Dear Brother,

I don't agree with you in everything that you have shared in this thread, but I appreciate your Christ like spirit in answering those that have disagreed with you.

It is not only speaking the truth and bringing forth correction that is needed, but the truth must come forth in the right spirit.

"And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will." (2 Timothy 2:24-26)

Mike

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SO, I saw this thread on this book and decided while I was visiting my friend to read it(she has a copy) I must say I really liked the book. Lots of history and very interesting to learn how so much of these outside influenced came into the church. Reading got me looking into history more and I found many of the church groups today follow a lot of Roman Catholic traditions as well.

Thanks for opening up the discussion about the book:-) I give it two thumbs up and a must read for anyone interested in learning about "why" the church of today does some of the things it does:-)

My friend also has a copy of rethinking the wine skin so I am going to read it next:-)
Have a great weekend everyone
Elizabeth

Sarah4Him wrote:
Dear rbanks,

Since you made us talk so long on the topic the least you can do is read the book and then come back and give us a long rant. :) At least this way we all would have got something from the conversation. :)

God bless you all,
Sarah

Rbanks, she has valid point and one that hit my funny bone! I rolled after reading this!

:-P :-P

God bless everyone! (still laughing)

reformer wrote:

Anyways I think that is all I have to say for not...with all sincerity, I am not against someone going to a church building on Sunday, deep down I do hope I can find one to gather. but for now I trust that the Lord has me where He wants me...He has placed me in the wilderness...for a season or longer I do not know. but I know that He is doing a work, that will be completed for His glorify, either I will find out I have been wrong and disobedient or I have been lead correctly...either way He will be glorified, I will decrease and He will increase. You must understand, many have left the church institution for reasons that you may not understand...it does not necessarily mean they are wrong...each person must follow the Lord, whether it takes them the short distance, or the long way around. God is in control, if you are seeking Him. we can't put God in a box of the traditional church system...saying that God only operates within these parameters! God is spirit and we must worship Him in Spirit and Truth. if we confine Him to a certain way...we will not see Him as we ought. We will just be like Martha, busy...instead of Mary, worshiping Him not in a place or setting but whenever and wherever. She was sitting at His feet in a house, kitchen, maybe even on a dirty floor.

I better stop...i can go on...and on...think i posted more than I should.

Blessings
Reformer(mike)

I love you in the Lord my brother reformer and agree with you more than you know. I pray that God bless you beyond your imagination.

Ephesians 3:20-21 (KJV) 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Philippians 4:19 (KJV) But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

I most appreciate you checking out the site and your honesty and I definitely don’t condemn you for loving the Lord and striving to do what is pleasing to him. I must say this has been a very enlightening experience for me and has caused me to try to understand others better. I am definitely not against house churches or any kind of gathering that worships God through Christ Jesus in Spirit and in truth.

Blessings to you!

AbideinHim wrote:
I praise God for the godly men and women that are participating in this thread and that have a heart for God.

The Lord is going to get us to the place that we need to be as we seek Him with all of our hearts.

For many of us, we have a glimpse of what God is wanting to do in our lives and ministries, but we are not sure what we are to do to bring it to come to pass.

Praise God that we can pray to Him for wisdom and He will lead us in the way that we should go. The Lord is building His Church, and He is positioning His Body to the place that we all need to be.

The Lord can only give His grace to the humble. He can only teach those that are teachable, and that are willing to change and become the new wineskins that will hold the new wine.

Mike

I found the above comment from back a ways in this thread very perceptive, and was encouraged by it, particularly this: "For many of us, we have a glimpse of what God is wanting to do in our lives and ministries, but we are not sure what we are to do to bring it to come to pass."

Many of us are in a place like this. I know I am, and I don't want to mess up God's plan by trying to fulfill it in my own understanding.

I'm in a wilderness myself, like Reformer a couple of posts back, where he said he is in a wilderness these days, "for a season."

"Going to church" is generally so deeply ingrained into our thinking that we are sure we are going to die when we find ourselves in a wilderness walking alone at times. Never mind an "institutional church" so called, maybe we can't even find a home church that has the Cloud hovering over it.

But when you read through Scripture, you discover that God led different ones into a wilderness. When they came out on the other end of it, they were men of God... that is, the ones who received it as from God, and kept their hearts right.

AD

In my opinion there's something that has been overlooked in this controversy between "institutional church" and "home church."

I don't accept that it's a matter of "different strokes for different folks," ...that God has set up both types of church, and His end can be reached either way.

What is called "institutional church" is part of a denominational system, with Baptist churches, and Pentecostal churches, and Lutheran, and Methodist... and so on.

And this kind of set up is definitely not of God. ...As though I have the right, somehow, to decide whether to be a Baptist or a Pentecostal or what ever, because of some sort of preference or bias I might have toward a certain Christian doctrine or experience. This is limiting the Holy One Israel, and He never ordained it in the first place. God never ordained that there should be this kind of centering around a certain measure of truth that He brought forth in the first place to bring His people further along the Way... and closer to HIMSELF.

Yes, I know, God has "blessed," and used that system (for His people are scattered there) ...and many great preachers have ministered in it over the centuries. But that does not vindicate the system.

Jesus said the Holy Spirit is like a River... not a puddle. We must get into God's River, and continue to flow in Him. And this is what is happening more and more these days. I believe it is of God, what is happening. It is He who has put this discontent into many hearts who are getting out of the old system, longing for "Something" that at times maybe they can't even define or put into words. They just want to gather together with other hungry hearts... unto the Lord.

But home church, too, can become denominational in character, and sadly, this has happened all too often. It takes great grace and surrender to continue to give the Holy Spirit His Lordship in the midst, and let Him lead us whithersoever He wills.

But just because "home church" ends up floundering at times, this does not justify that system called "insitutional Christianity." Read your New Testament carefully (and with the help of the Holy Spirit). It simply is not there.

PS... Haven't read Pagan Christianity, but after reading through this thread, I am going to be on the lookout for a copy. Thanks for the tip, Banks! :-)

PPS ...I have appreciated the respect and grace the different posters on this thread have shown to one another. RBanks, I'd just like to say I have read some of your posts on other threads, and there's no doubt in my mind that you love the Lord, and are one of His own.

AD

I don't have time to say much because I got to go out again after just getting back.

The Lord is doing some awesome things and hope to share some things with you all later.

I praise God for you ADisciple and appreciate your kind words and also agree very much with your posts.

I hope to elaborate more later concerning your posts.

Grace to you!

Roniya wrote:
I have not read Pagan Christianity but I did find Dean Taylor's article in a recent Remnant to be quite interesting.

http://www.charityministries.org/theremnant/2009/2Q/theremnant-2009-2Q-pagan.a5w

I read Dean Taylor's article. I think he makes a mistake in going to the early church fathers instead of Scripture to substantiate his claims.

At one poing he quotes Tertullian. Here's an extract.

"Their ordinations are carelessly administered, capricious, changeable. At one time they put novices in office; at another time, men who are bound to some secular employment; at another, persons who have apostatized from us, to bind them by vainglory, since they cannot buy the truth. Nowhere is promotion easier than in the camp of rebels, where the mere fact of being there is a foremost service. And so it comes to pass that today one man is their bishop, tomorrow another; today he is a deacon who tomorrow is a reader; today he is a presbyter who tomorrow is a layman. For even on laymen do they impose the functions of presbyter” (Tertullian’s Prescription Against the Heretic—Chapter 41).

You mean, Tertullian, you had a problem with leadership in the church being "bound to some secular employment"? You mean you had a problem with a presbyter (an elder) being a layman?

Thanks for your opinion, Tertullian, butI think I'll stick with Scripture. I'm disappointed to find someone not too far removed from the apostles timewise so very far removed from their true teachings.

AD

I have read Frank's book.

I would agree with what's written in the previous post by Greg,

"I personally don't agree with everything in the book...So my point is we should not judge how God can work and use books like this to encourage some out of a very religious atmosphere they perhaps would have been in."

I myself would recommend and encourage the reading of Frank's book with the above in mind.

Three others which may be read online address this similiar subject of ecclesiology. I'd also recommend and encourage the reading of these books as complimentary to Frank's. They touch upon some issues not addressed in Frank's book and approach the issue from different angles.

I'd preface my recommendation of these with the same quote above.

Here are the links:

http://www.marriagehealing.org/pdfs/Harlot_Church.pdf

http://inthebeginning.com/books/ecc.htm

http://www.elseroad.com/topics/house_church/ekklesia/Book_Ekklesia.pdf

ADisciple wrote:
In my opinion there's something that has been overlooked in this controversy between "institutional church" and "home church."

AD

There is no controversy with me concerning where true believers meet together whether in an IC or house fellowship.

I am also not against the truth in Frank’s book or any of his books that have helped people. I just don’t agree altogether with the pagan teaching in the book because it is not detailed in the bible. We are in the world but not of the world if we are born of God.

The apostle and high priest of my profession is the Lord Jesus Christ and I am to follow the apostle’s teaching. The truth is that unless one is born of God they are not even in the kingdom of God. The place (building or house) where one is born of God is really irrelevant, because to be born of God is most important for all. You see people are born of God in many different places in the world. No matter where a person is when they are born of God they are to continue in the word of God. This is where it becomes so important that we follow the Christ of the New Testament. We are to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. The sad thing is that there are not many places conducive for people to become born of God and also to truly grow in the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. I well remembered when I was saved after going to a revival service in a Disciples of Christ church near my home around 26 years ago. The minister gave me materials from Hagan and Copeland and I also listened to them on the radio. I was excited first when I started listening to them but I was reading my bible daily and seeking God in prayer. To make a long story shorter, I quit listening to them because I didn’t agree with many of their teachings according to the bible. I also began searching for a church and I went to several churches before I found one that God gave me peace about. The preacher was spirit-filled and I needed to hear what he was preaching. This also lead me to latter be preaching in this organization.

The thing I’m gathering at is that we all are to follow Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV) 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

I was thinking just the other day that if I wasn’t preaching it would probably be hard to find a church in this day and time. Whether we are in a building or house the presence of God is an absolute and also the leadership following God. We must be a part of an assembly that is preaching the word with the anointing of the Holy Spirit and also teaching the word by the Holy Spirit. There must be oversight and responsibility. We must be obedient to God if we are going to be full of the Holy Spirit.

There is so much more to be said but I will stop for now.

Grace to all!

rbanks wrote:
There is no controversy with me concerning where true believers meet together whether in an IC or house fellowship.

Rbanks, you missed the whole point of my post. I realize that many (like yourself) are okay with both institutional church and house church, and consider it's just a matter of personal preference. I disagree with that.

What I said was (to quote part of my post):

"In my opinion there's something that has been overlooked in this controversy between 'institutional church' and 'home church.'

"I don't accept that it's a matter of 'different strokes for different folks,' ...that God has set up both types of church, and His end can be reached either way.

"What is called 'institutional church' is part of a denominational system, with Baptist churches, and Pentecostal churches, and Lutheran, and Methodist... and so on.

"And this kind of set up is definitely not of God. ...As though I have the right, somehow, to decide whether to be a Baptist or a Pentecostal or what ever, because of some sort of preference or bias I might have toward a certain Christian doctrine or experience. This is limiting the Holy One Israel, and He never ordained it in the first place. God never ordained that there should be this kind of centering around a certain measure of truth that He brought forth in the first place to bring His people further along the Way... and closer to HIMSELF."

AD

ADisiciple

thought what you shared here was really good!

rdg

ADisciple,

i was only clarifying again the their was no controversy with me in case someone was thinking there was. Sorry that cause you to miss the rest of my post.

I said in an earlier post that I very much agreed with you but down further in my last post I was trying to say that no matter where we find ourselves we need to workout our own salvation.

Sorry you think I missed the point of your post.

Grace to you!

I was thinking just the other day that if I wasn’t preaching it would probably be hard to find a church in this day and time. Whether we are in a building or house the presence of God is an absolute and also the leadership following God. We must be a part of an assembly that is preaching the word with the anointing of the Holy Spirit and also teaching the word by the Holy Spirit. There must be oversight and responsibility. We must be obedient to God if we are going to be full of the Holy Spirit.

I said in an earlier post that I very much agreed with you but down further in my last post I was trying to say that no matter where we find ourselves we need to workout our own salvation.

I agree - it matters much less where we meet then does our relationship with God. I have meet numerous house church goers who are bitter and angry at the IC and as result become, un-loving, judgmental, Pharisitical, legalistic and rebellious against God appointed authority. This is as much error as found in the IC. Where ever God has placed us, we must focus first on our relationship with Him. And I have meet many IC people who truly love God, seek after Him and are filled with the fruit of the Spirit. On the other hand I have meet many wonderful and powerful men and women of God who are house church members and IC people who are compromised, living in sin and know nothing of God.

We must also remember, that many of the men who are featured on this website, who have taught us and become fathers in the faith for many of us are part of what many condemn as IC - such as

David Wilkerson
Paris Readhead
A.W. Tozer
Zac Poonen
Carter Conlon
Chuck Smith
Charles Spurgeon
Paul Washer
K.P. Yohannan
John Piper
etc.
etc.
etc.

The bottom lines is we must seek where God wants us and seek first our relationship with Him. There are both good and bad in both IC and house church. I am not first concerned with becoming the "right looking thing" - I am first concerned with drawing closer to God.

Patrick
www.jonahproject.org

Christisking wrote:
We must also remember, that many of the men who are featured on this website, who have taught us and become fathers in the faith for many of us are part of what many condemn as IC - such as

David Wilkerson
Paris Readhead
A.W. Tozer
Zac Poonen
Carter Conlon
Chuck Smith
Charles Spurgeon
Paul Washer
K.P. Yohannan
John Piper
etc.
etc.
etc.

You are right, and some of the ones you listed, along with many others, have greatly encouraged me over the years.

But we are in the beginnings of a spiritual revolution that is going to see restored the original pattern of church the early apostles and prophets established. Think of the implications of that, the shaking that that's going to cause! But only going back to that can bring about the end those early ones were seeking, the end God has in mind: "a glorious church without spot or wrinkle or any such thing..."

No spots, or blemishes! No wrinkles, either! A church in which there is no "oldness" but is totally renewed in the Spirit of the mind, and walking with her Lord in "newness of life" in the total lordship of the Spirit.

I sometimes sing to myself that old song of William Booth's, Send the Fire. It has this line in it:
"Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire: to burn up every trace of sin, to bring the light and glory in; the revolution now begin, send the fire send the fire, send the fire."

It's far far more than a revival God has in mind these days! A revolution! But do we actually want it, considering the implications? Great, if He "revives" my church... Wonderful... if it means we can carry on much the same in an old order familiar to us. But what if what He has in mind means seeing my church consumed in the flames as He brings forth what HE has in mind, and an entirely new Order?

Makes you tremble in your knees, thinking about it.

..........

...It's okay Rbanks, I wasn't offended. :-) It's just that I got the impression from one of your posts that you were somewhat in a hurry about something, and maybe had missed what I wrote. I just wanted to make sure you hadn't missed the main point of my post.

...Thanks, rdg, and others, who expressed encouragement with what I shared.

AD

Christisking wrote:

I was thinking just the other day that if I wasn’t preaching it would probably be hard to find a church in this day and time. Whether we are in a building or house the presence of God is an absolute and also the leadership following God. We must be a part of an assembly that is preaching the word with the anointing of the Holy Spirit and also teaching the word by the Holy Spirit. There must be oversight and responsibility. We must be obedient to God if we are going to be full of the Holy Spirit.

I said in an earlier post that I very much agreed with you but down further in my last post I was trying to say that no matter where we find ourselves we need to workout our own salvation.

I agree - it matters much less where we meet then does our relationship with God. I have meet numerous house church goers who are bitter and angry at the IC and as result become, un-loving, judgmental, Pharisitical, legalistic and rebellious against God appointed authority. This is as much error as found in the IC. Where ever God has placed us, we must focus first on our relationship with Him. And I have meet many IC people who truly love God, seek after Him and are filled with the fruit of the Spirit. On the other hand I have meet many wonderful and powerful men and women of God who are house church members and IC people who are compromised, living in sin and know nothing of God.

We must also remember, that many of the men who are featured on this website, who have taught us and become fathers in the faith for many of us are part of what many condemn as IC - such as

David Wilkerson
Paris Readhead
A.W. Tozer
Zac Poonen
Carter Conlon
Chuck Smith
Charles Spurgeon
Paul Washer
K.P. Yohannan
John Piper
etc.
etc.
etc.

The bottom lines is we must seek where God wants us and seek first our relationship with Him. There are both good and bad in both IC and house church. I am not first concerned with becoming the "right looking thing" - I am first concerned with drawing closer to God.

Patrick
www.jonahproject.org

Thank you brother Patrick for the remarkable way you brought out the truth from my posts and also brought something to this thread that was so important. I thank God for you brother because you really brought profound truth to the forefront. I was hoping one of the moderators or many of the other gifted writers on SI would have seen what you just so clearly brought out.

I appreciate the many Christians on SI but I must say that most people are not willing to take inventory of their spiritual walk with God. I took a risk starting this thread but God has helped me persevere even against a lot of opposition and even taking a chance at being dislike by so many people on SI. Anyone can search this thread and see, although I started out with some very strong words at the beginning of this thread challenging this book and it’s writers with error mixed in with truth and also saying we will be held accountable for leading people wrong. I was called so many things and was spoken to so harshly by many on here and I didn’t get any support whatsoever from any of the moderators except discouragement. I thought they would see what you brought out so elegantly concerning all the great preachers on SI that were apart of the IC. Nevertheless I persevered by the grace of God and did not rail back nor speak harshly to anyone because we are brethren and we are to love one another. I have learned that when people discouraged you then you can encourage yourself in the Lord. I have learned that sometimes you may feel like you are standing alone and nobody sees what you are seeing but God is always faithful to see us through.

It is tough sometimes to speak the truth and nothing but the truth when it may rub someone else the wrong way according to them and most people are bias to the group that they have a major interest in. I also notice that some said though they don’t agree with everything in the book they were willing to look at the good that some said they got out of the book without giving any encouragement whatsoever to the truth I was saying.

I thank my God that he encourages me all the time, and concerning his Word, there is nothing in it, that any of us are to disagree with, but when we are bias toward a certain agenda of our own when we write a book, then there will be disagreement concerning what is really the truth.

Blessings to you!

Mr. Banks,

Still going on and on with this I see. Somehow you are missing the forest for the trees and I want to get at the root of the matter ...

From your original post;

[i]You call yourself a Christian and start telling someone else how to live and serve God you will be held accountable for those people you influence.

The two individuals who wrote “pagan christianity” will answer to God for how they represented the church that Jesus suffered for.

Blessings to all!

_________________
respectfully submitted by rbanks[/i]

I find this a quagmire of opinion when you have;

A) Not read the book
B) Find no duplicity in your own words
C) Add "respectfully" and "Blessings" to seemingly soften the accusations.
D) Have not read the book!

A scripture for you;

[i]Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?[/i] Joh 7:51

This is my beef with many, many things these days, poor research, the seemingly ability to give a piece of our minds that we cannot afford to give on anything under the sun without doing and true due diligence. How do tales and fables and misrepresentations get started and prolonged but by this very method? It is not only 'unfair', it is beneath us who proclaim to be the holders of [i]truth[/i].

[i]"I am sorry if I offended anyone but I found it easy to write the way I did because of the introduction and then proceeding to call those entire things pagan just because they can’t be found specifically in the bible. Everything is not pagan just because it’s not written word for word in the bible. However I do believe a lot is pagan going on in religious settings today but I believe we must be [b][u]accurate[/u][/b] in what they are. It is also alright brother for you to be harsh to me and I accept your apology before you did it and there are no hard feelings on my part toward you but only love in the Lord. I will give the hypocrisy thought more consideration, but I will not try to defend myself if you think I was, but let the Lord be my judge."[/i]

I don't believe you believe it yourself - If you wanted to be accurate, you would go to the source material itself and draw your conclusions. Again, this truly bothers on any number of levels - Christians complaining and tearing apart things they do not truly understand. How many have ripped into Calvin and have never read his own works? Same with Arminius, same with a whole host of saints down through the ages - Stealing from other mens opinions and conjectures and making them their own, and that doesn't seem to bother than whatsoever. It is very uncanny to me and what I do mean strictly by duplicity ... [i]Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?[/i]

Too often we are all the way into the details that are based on a shaky contextual foundation, to try and reel that back in, to say 'wait a minute', did you consider source material? Have you indeed 'read the book', the article, the biography what have you is like trying to get the horses back in after they have left the corral.

This feeds into a large part of what was attempted in [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=28202&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Procterandgambleites[/url]- Misrepresentation and those things that are lead out of them - Fear and fear mongering, tall tales - Poor research ... source material, etc. etc.

Krispy;

Oh boy... opinions on a book by two people who haven't even read it. You must be kidding me.

You know the old saying "dont judge a book by it's cover"? ... well dont judge a book unless you've read it either.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear rbanks,

Since you made us talk so long on the topic the least you can do is read the book and then come back and give us a long rant. :) At least this way we all would have got something from the conversation. :)

God bless you all,
Sarah

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I googled 'pagan Christianity' and was appalled at what I found - such gross ignorance on the part of those writers, [b]not the ones of this book[/b]. So, I ordered it from Amazon and hope to read it for myself.

What I found on the web left me shaking my head....those writers have no clue of Judaism, have no clue of temple worship, the OT law.

Ginny

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Forget the perception of whether you liked\\disliked, encouraged\\discouraged Banks - That's not the issue. Actually, I do have some encouragement for you ...

Read the book!

Shall we send you a copy?

I would take very seriously just what it is we do in and with Joh 7:51 - That root and those impulses ...

crsschk wrote:
Mr. Banks,

Forget the perception of whether you liked\\disliked, encouraged\\discouraged Banks - That's not the issue. Actually, I do have some encouragement for you ...

Read the book!

Shall we send you a copy?

I would take very seriously just what it is we do in and with Joh 7:51 - That root and those impulses ...

Thanks Brother Mike for the encouragement and no need to go through the trouble of sending me a copy of the book.

I thank everyone for their contributions to this thread and I will take what I have learned from this experience. I apologize to those who I may have offended by not having read the book but only reading many reviews concerning the book positive and negative. I read from what I felt as reliable resources and also the fruit that many gained from this book. I read from respectable Christian leaders who stated that he called a lot of Christian practices pagan just because he couldn’t find it in scriptures when many things are not exactly given in details in scripture.

I was hoping someone who has read the book could prove me wrong or right concerning the attitudes this book can cause toward the IC believers. I hope though that this thread will cause us all no matter where we are serving the Lord Jesus Christ to have better attitudes toward one another.

Again, I am sorry that I have not personally read the book and will now bow out gracefully from this thread. I appreciate all the encouragement and advice you have given me.

Blessings to you all!

Christisking wrote:

We must also remember, that many of the men who are featured on this website, who have taught us and become fathers in the faith for many of us are part of what many condemn as IC - such as
...
The bottom lines is we must seek where God wants us and seek first our relationship with Him. There are both good and bad in both IC and house church. I am not first concerned with becoming the "right looking thing" - I am first concerned with drawing closer to God.

Patrick,

Firstly, allow me a disclaimer. I am a "house churcher" who attends an IC. I hope that demonstrates something of an "unbiased nature" in my post. I am one who has not rejected all in the IC, as well as being one who does not endorse all in the house church movement. Having said all that, I do have some serious issues with the IC, which don't need to be raised here, in this thread.

All that established, I'd like to point out a minor flaw in the logic of your post. I have a deep appreciation for what Martin Luther did, in regards to leading the Church out of Rome, and yet I am keenly aware that he would brand me as a "fanatic" for believing in "Believer's Baptism".

J Edwin Orr was someone else that I have respected greatly, for his insight in revival, and yet he endorsed the Vatican II council. Billy Graham's early evangelism was inspirational, and yet he is connected with Rome, and Freemasonry.

My point in raising this, is simply to say that just because someone is of a certain religious system, does not justify the system they come from. "Drawing closer to God" is no excuse to ignore grievous error. Interestingly, every generation of believers has considered something to be trivial, which those who followed have realised to be erroneous.

crsschk wrote:

I find this a quagmire of opinion when you have;

A) Not read the book
B) Find no duplicity in your own words
C) Add "respectfully" and "Blessings" to seemingly soften the accusations.
D) Have not read the book!

Is there an echo in this post. :-P I was expecting to read, "And did I mention, 'Read the book'?" at the end of it.

Love ya Mike. :-D

rbanks wrote:
I am sorry that I have not personally read the book and will now bow out gracefully from this thread. I appreciate all the encouragement and advice you have given me.

Mr Banks,

Well I must say, it takes a special kind of guy to make that last post you made. It reminds me of something I heard Art Katz say:

There is more hope for a man in error, who's been persuaded of his rectitude, but is in error, but is going some place in his error, is in movement towards Damascus in his well meaning intention and zeal, however wrong, is a greater candidate, than some starchy stick in the mud pew sitter, who has the technical qualification and can recite its creedo, as a phraseological saint, but is not in motion.

Keep moving, bro. Keep moving.

[i]PS... Haven't read Pagan Christianity, but after reading through this thread, I am going to be on the lookout for a copy. Thanks for the tip, Banks![/i]

If I may, I believe the book "Rethinking the Wineskins" may actually be a better book to read and understand what the early church may have looked like than "Pagan Christianity". I have read may of Frank Viola's books and I believe that while "Pagan Christianity" deals alot with the history of IC practices, it would be very easy for many to be offended and cast it off without giving it a fair shake. "Rethinking the Wineskins" gives a lot of the same information that is in "Pagan Christianity", but it probably would not offend quite as quickly.

Just a thought,
Phil

Rbanks,

You are a good man - I just had to drive home the point. It would be very easy to go back and find all the times I did very much the same thing. It's just the principle of the matter.

Reading this thread has been interesting.
I think it sounds like it's almost done, but I just thought I'd add my two cents worth. :o)

Personally I have become very leery about ready new books because so many sound so good, but then when the truth about the authors is discovered, it appears that they are false prophets and wolves in sheeps clothing.

As one person said, "One doesn't catch many fish unless he has a look-a-like bait".

I never read The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren, but now I am glad that I didn't. I don't need to now that I know who he really is and what he really believes. In looking at his website and all the information he provides I would never have guessed. But he does not believe that Jesus is God, that He was born of a virgin, and is God come in the flesh. He is a CFR member which is tied with the Trilatteral Commission, which is tied with "secret societies" such as the Illuminati.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/election/612-rick-warren-the-cfr-and-barack-obama
http://www.the2012apocalypse.com/index.php/2008/12/20/rick-warren-cfr-member?blog=2

Even the elect will be decieved.

Personally, I'd stick with older men of God who have run the race, kept the faith, and finished well.

I'd prefer to read Scripture. What's wrong with not reading Pagan Chrstianity? A person can't go wrong by not reading it, but those that read it are open to deception and to believing lies from the devil who transforms himself into an angel of light.

All I need to know about the early church is given in Scripture, and I don't need to read people's opinions or "fact". America has re-written history and people are swallowing it whole, and I'm sure they wouldn't be afraid to re-write church history either, if it would help them bring about their one world religion. I'm not saying that this Frank is re-writing history, I'm just saying that I'm not trusting him or staking my beliefs on what he says.

Personally I think house churches are good as long as they[u]are[/u]good and based on Christ, and that the churches of true believers should un-register. Our country will be full-fledged communists in a very short time.

Personally I think I won't miss out on anything if I bypass all these books and just stick with the Word of God.

I believe that we could all profit from this discussion.

I know that I have been very dogmatic on certain issues in the past and have to admit that I didn't see the whole picture accurately.

The least that we can do is to treat others the same way that we would want to be treated, and that is with respect.

Mike