I am interested and inquisitive. I am looking for objective answers from those who know more then me on the subject and hopefully a good deal. Opinions would be good as well as sort of taking a poll here to see what the saints are saying. Is it because he was: in a densely populated city, in a dark area that did not have breakthrough in a while, a well rounded ministry that is very good, a lot of calvinist looking for somewhere reformed to go, so hip and cool that people were drawn to him, spiritual revival, a little growth made it "popular" and then the numbers really mounted, preaches hard and a lot of fruit comes from it, has a charismatic personality, his emerging ideologies made him more personably relatable and he knew how people thought and people liked that, the emphasis was on young people so naturally it took off, just been laboring for years faithfully and fruit is coming, cool music and videos and other things in the media and arts, or something else or a mix of things?
Why did Mark Driscoll's Church grow so much?...(also to anyone whos actually been a regular there)
by anonymity on 2009/7/16 14:42:23I am interested and inquisitive. I am looking for objective answers from those who know more then me on the subject and hopefully a good deal. Opinions would be good as well as sort of taking a poll here to see what the saints are saying. Is it because he was: in a densely populated city, in a dark area that did not have breakthrough in a while, a well rounded ministry that is very good, a lot of calvinist looking for somewhere reformed to go, so hip and cool that people were drawn to him, spiritual revival, a little growth made it "popular" and then the numbers really mounted, preaches hard and a lot of fruit comes from it, has a charismatic personality, his emerging ideologies made him more personably relatable and he knew how people thought and people liked that, the emphasis was on young people so naturally it took off, just been laboring for years faithfully and fruit is coming, cool music and videos and other things in the media and arts, or something else or a mix of things?
I've actually had the priveledge of meeting Mark Driscoll in person when he came to Brisbane for a conference. You are more than welcome to read my [url=http://prayer-warrior83.xanga.com/672237978/8220all-things-to-all-men-by-all-means8221/]notes
I also recommend you read his autobiography [i]Confessions of a Reformission Rev
This is a well written, seemingly unbiased article on Driscoll below:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/magazine/11punk-t.html
It seems that he is a Neo-Calvinist champion, of the very extreme type. His once saved always saved theology has morphed into extreme permissiveness, where he preaches a part Bible, all flesh theology where almost anything goes. His church in Seattle has become the melting pot of thousands of second generation Grunge youth who are attracted to a Gospel of the unrepentant, while maintaining their culture, friends and their involvement and love of the world.
He often cusses, speaks of immorality in open terms, often vulgar terms, and stands in a macho all man mentality that excites the flesh. This, by the way, is the exact strategy that the "shock jocks" of radio and TV have built their wild popularity on. There is such a thing as the order of Nature, and his perverted theology permits him to attack them all, while maintaining GRACE; in that your saved forever anyway.
This then provides a refuge from the unwanted stains of holy conviction,and thereby all condemnation. I possess God on my terms. Every cult has a belief system that promotes a similar standard. His meetings become an event; a very hip Christian happening, where the masses of the seeking hip wash the consciences of each other by agreement to the "liberty " they have, and the sheer "coolness" of it all.
It is effect, the epitome of "user friendly" theology, where the congregation has a mental God who has already accepted them, and they live their lives by just working out the kinks, as happily and as cool as they can, while meeting to gain personal credibility, and of course to establish social connections with the like minded. Mark Driscoll is the high priest of it all, and is there to encourage and establish their dark belief system.
No sin, no repentance, No holy Spirit, no honor to Jesus, no sacrifice for sins by Him. No need. Once saved always saved. Be happy, then you die and go to Heaven. Only problem here is, "NO CHRISTIAN."
well said brothertom , God bless you . Clint
Very timely post, last night I was talking about this exact issue and brother Driscoll.
He and Mars Hill Church are the rage amongst "young evangelicals" and big amongst many semitary students.
I am younger than Driscoll as well, but I think there is much danger in the rock music scene, the lack of soul winning/witnessing (they have grown through inviting people to their church and people in Seattle hearing of the church), commending secular/wicked things, amongst some other issues.
The words that Phil Johnson and John MacArthur have said were that Mark Driscoll should not be in the ministry, period.
Do I agree with the above? No. But I think there are much higher "profitable" words that need to be preached from pulpits. I listen to Driscoll some times, and half of the time I finish the sermon and the other times I grieveously turn it off. I believe that he works, and has worked, very hard to start Mars Hill Church and be a pastor (lead) there. I love brother Driscoll, and pray for him and his family as I hope y'all can pray for me and mine.
ps - Mars Hill church is completely independent and that is what the bible calls for, unlike the vast majority which are denominationallly tied
Brothertom,
You are dead wrong and I don't mean about Driscol, I mean in general!
int3grity wrote:Brothertom,
You are dead wrong and I don't mean about Driscol, I mean in general!
I get this feeling, too. :-( I mean, I could be wrong because I don't listen to Driscoll, and have never read any of his books... But I have seen a couple videos of him preaching on youtube.
I have heard that Driscoll has had his low points as a minister, even stooping down to using foul language when he gets upset. But I have also seen Driscoll rebuking debunking Joel Osteen in front of his congregation and I have seen him denouncing The Shack as the heresy that it is-- modalism. I have also noticed Driscoll saves his harshest words for religious hypocrites, which reminds me of SomeOne else I know...
Is Driscoll blameless? No.
Is Driscoll unsaved? I do not believe so. Remember, love "believes all things, hopes all things,"
Let's give this brother the benefit of the doubt, no?
Then again, I could be wrong, anyone who knows me around here knows that I am Reformed in doctrine, just like Driscoll, but I do also know a lot of Reformed brothers who are disgusted by men like Driscoll. He is just not enough of a puritan for them. *shrugs*
Adam :-D
being relevant always brings a crowd.
reformer wrote:
being relevant always brings a crowd.
And what could be more relevant than the gospel? I'm not so sure Driscoll preaches a false gospel.
Intercessor,
thanks I'll look over your notes.
Oh yeah an autobiography very interesting thanks!
Brothertom,
very interesting post.
One of the things I was trying to come away with in posting this question is is this from God or the flesh or what.
These are a lot of the things that I was looking into.
I like to know when something is of God and when it isn't.
If it is a move of God then I would like to receive the testimony and be encouraged by it. If not I would like to stay away from it.
From what I have seen I have seen some good things. I mean he sometimes preaches hard and solid. I know he speaks about sexual things openly, but I also know that he did it at a service wherein children were told not to attend.
So yeah I will have to consider and look into these things more.
Jamez,
"very timely post" yeah it has been striking my interest and know it has been influential so it is good to clearly know what is going on.
I don't know who Phil Johnson is. Are you sure that Macarthur said Driscoll should not be in the ministry!?
Yeah I mean just because a Church is weak in some areas or something does not mean we should damn them. Often in big movements there are a lot of good things going on, but there is also often shallowness in depth.
As for you denominational comment. I have been thinking over this lately. I think one of the interesting things about Driscoll is first that he is so young and second that he is independent. I wasn't sure if he was independent. I still am not sure. Maybe he does have somewhere that he came from and maybe he has friendship ties with elder Churches like desiring God with Piper I don't know do you. I was thinking myself should I be a part of a denomination or go outside of it. I have had a hard time with this because there really aren't any denominations that I totally agree with on everything and also wonder what is of the power of God. I have also thought thought that it is good to be in a network and a family so to say. I know that we should not be divided in denominations but sometime God just draws some people closer because they share values.
Integrity,
I wonder if that is a loving statement or even correct.
From what I have seen I have seen some good things. I mean he sometimes preaches hard and solid. I know he speaks about sexual things openly, but I also know that he did it at a service wherein children were told not to attend.
__________
With all do respect having a service where "sexual things" are openly preached in a setting that has married, unmarried men and women sitting together is not ok. Really some kinds of teachings should be done with men meeting with brothers only. Sisters should not be present, especially if this teaching is detailed or graphic in nature.
Not saying that this fellow was preaching that kind of sermon but have heard of some that do and it is not ok.
We really do need to remember there are and should be boundaries. Sisters should be teaching sisters and brothers with brothers when certain things are being discussed and shared.
rdg
I don't know if anyone else here is from Seattle, but I thought I'd share the home-town perspective.
I am a young man from Seattle. I was raised by non-believing parents in a very lax environment. At a young age I was exposed to many different forms of liberal thought.
Then out of left field, Jesus came into my life and dragged me kicking and screaming out of my pluralistic liberal surroundings. I recognized that much of my Christian walk in Seattle would be rejecting elements of the 'freedom' that I had walked in before.
From what I understand of Driscoll, I think that our testimonies have some similar touch-points.
I am not here to defend every comment that Mark has ever made, or every sermon he has preached. In fact the one time that I went to Mars Hill to see him preach in person I didn't like a couple of the things he said. But I must concede that people are being miraculously transformed at his church!
I have known some people whom I thought the Gospel could never reach who have found a relationship with Jesus at Mars Hill Church in Seattle.
To those of you here that love to rip into preachers for the things they say or don't say: [b]You are all hypocrites!
On the other hand, his church is reaching tens of thousands of people for Christ -many who were not raised in loving Christian households! [b]We talk about revival on this forum, but I bet when it happens, we would be like the scoffers that rejected the revivals of the past
Mark Driscoll is just a clay vessel. Of course we will find faults with him. But based on the fruits of his ministry, I have little doubt that he preaches the Gospel (and he does) out of a genuine faith in Jesus.
Is it true that Driscoll would openly curse?
When it comes to cursing. A curse word was just like saying may God damn you. If in the right context a curse word is not bad. Or a swear word. We are told to not swear or makes oaths. I mean our words should be wholesome so there are words we should not use. But I mean if there are any words that are really harsh it would be the words damn or hell. The f word I think not good to use as it has immoral connotations, but is often used in the way of saying damn you.
My main point in all of this is to see what is of the working of God, what is of the effort of the flesh, what is compromise, what is of the Devil, and ect so as to look at it correctly and take it as either an encouragement and example or as another example of what not to be like or if there is a mix and if so to what level on each side.
[b] Oh and I would like to hear from someone as well who actually lived in the area and attended the Church regularly!????
Driscoll is a work in progress (a process often referred to as Sanctification) and I doubt that if you look for anything that he has preached in the past couple of years you will find him advocating cursing.
None of us got it 100% right the second that we accepted Jesus into our hearts.
Ian,
I agree and understand what you are saying to a good deal.
I am not sure that you can call this person or that a hypocrite or something to the level that the Pharisees were. For many are just Christians who are zealous and when that is mixed with even a little understanding the outcome is not very good. Much of the time it is out of a good motive.
Also, though a ministry may be good though with a little error much of the time why people might oppose it is because so many from the Church embrace it as the all great thing which should be copied and though it has done some good things it is has compromises that should not be followed. So sometimes people may not say this is to be damned but that it should definitely be raised to the level that it is. For instance I am not all that familiar with Mars Hill, but I do know that many people are raising it VERY HIGH so that if even there is some good amount of error the vast majority of those who are adoring this ministry are in great error. Many do not want to see the Church swayed with the wind to follow something false just because its pretty and popular.
As for the cursing thing I was responding to someone who had posted something about it. I was wondering if he did because there are some who as Christians are cursing saying that it is not really anything. I guess the person was just saying that he at times cursed not that he did it on the pulpit. So I guess there really is not claim that he did in the way that I was asking at least I think.
From what I am thinking at this point is that:
-he is not of the devil but is actually pretty on fire
-i am confident that God is working there
-however I am not sure how much of the influence is based on being cool or something
-i do not think that he is in a ton of serious error but i am not so sure how much there actually is there may be some compromising modern day philosophies
-i would still like to hear more of this topic
I am generally on the more critical side. I wouldn't be quite as positive if it was Joel Osteen or Rick Warren.
The difference is that Mark Driscoll preaches the Gospel. There are plenty of examples of him doing so on the internet so I doubt it'll be hard for you to find them. I don't think that he would intentionally preach a sermon without it being thoroughly focused on Jesus.
We read about these guys in old books, whether its Spurgeon or Bunyan or whoever... they live in a mystical world where somehow they came to the faith without sinning. Spurgeon drank, he smoked, he cursed, there were many people in his lifetime who found legitimate faults with him -but he preached the Gospel, and is fondly called the "Prince of Preachers."
Unfortunately, men like Driscoll who stand by the historic Gospel are lumped together with others who preach 'another gospel, and only after his death will he probably be recognized as having been on the right side.
To go one better for most of the folks on this forum, he's staunchly Calvinistic, and can probably explain TULIP better than most people on this forum. He may take controvercial stances on things like drinking, tatoos, music etc.
We read the words of James, the brother of Jesus in Acts 15:19-20 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood."
We see later that Paul even gives the believers an increased amount of freedom with regards to food sacrificed to Idols (the reason it was included in the Acts 15 council's decision was to promote unity between Gentile and Jewish believers).
If James were writing today, he would probably say that things like music, tattoos and drinking were peripheral to the Gospel! We need to examine what cultural assumptions we make about what a 'Christian' should look like, and see if they are biblical!
Yes, a gospel, but could it be a permissive and "progressive" gospel that is not clearly defined under the disciplines of holiness as defined by the Holy Spirit Himself?...SEE;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-KxxpiWnOE&NR=1
Iansmith wrote:
"If James were writing today, he would probably say that things like music, tattoos and drinking were peripheral to the Gospel! We need to examine what cultural assumptions we make about what a 'Christian' should look like, and see if they are biblical!"
"All things are permissible, but not all things are profitable." Some permissiveness will cause you to lose your soul. Let us not confuse the two, or ever bend to "cultural assumptions" to justify the flesh. You are not "once saved always saved,", and to believe such a heresy, may slay you in the end; however hip and free it may feel.
a gospel, but could it be a permissive and "progressive" gospel that is not clearly defined under the disciplines of holiness as defined by the Holy Spirit Himself?
Brother I would say there is only one Gospel and that is the Good News of what Christ has done. In the Gospel there is no mention of holiness, nor is there mention of repentance or anything else for us "to do".
The Gospel is news to be believed or rejected, and I believe that Paul lays it out very clearly in 1 Corinthians 15.
As for the video, the guy who posted it has time and again been proven to be wrong in his assumptions of those whom he sets out to tear down.
So I guess the main question for us to talk about would be- does Mark Driscoll preach the Gospel? To which I would answer in a resounding YES.
That is not to say that I am wholeheartedly embracing or backing him per se, but defending him against false accusations.
So a 23 year old Youtube blogger takes one teaching of Mark Driscoll to task and he is suddenly preaching a 'progressive' gospel?
Use some discernment!
Does the Holy Spirit work in the heart of an unbeliever?! Absolutely, one of the Holy Spirit's main tasks is to convict the world of Sin!
Jesus says in John 16:7-8 Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment...
I would recommend that this young blogger Andrew Bain pick up a copy of Christopher Wright's book, "Knowing the Holy Spirit Through the Old Testament" or James Hamilton's "God's Indwelling Presence: The Holy Spirit in the Old and New Testaments"
Without the Holy Spirit working in our unbelieving hearts, we would never have come to faith in Jesus Christ... that is the simple truth.
In fact, God's Spirit was breathed into man when he was first created! Genesis 2:7 says, "the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." No human life exists apart from the continued grace of God and the life that he breathed into us... the books above spell it out more clearly, but life is impossible apart from the working of the Holy Spirit.
Brothertom, I fear you have hipness jealousy.
No holiness or repentance?
"Brother I would say there is only one Gospel and that is the Good News of what Christ has done. In the Gospel there is no mention of holiness, nor is there mention of repentance or anything else for us "to do".".... Roaringlamb
"Repent, for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand!"...John the Baptist.
"Unless you repent, you shall likewise perish!"...Jesus.
Unless you repent, I shall come and remove your candlestick". Jesus.
"Without holiness, NO MAN shall see God!"
Repentance and holiness are Paramount and fundamental to the foundations of the scriptures; of course to the saved. I'm stunned at your ignorance of the basics of the bible. I fear that you have swallowed the bait , hook line and sinker of what hyper-Calvinism really is;, and what this fellowship has descended into. I am not trying to embarrass you, but this is deep in left field. Please humble yourself, and know that God is holy, and requires repentance unto Himself for salvation. The rest may just feel good.
Brothertom wrote:
"a gospel, but could it be a permissive and "progressive" gospel that is not clearly defined under the disciplines of holiness as defined by the Holy Spirit Himself?"
Roaringlamb replied:
Brother I would say there is only one Gospel and that is the Good News of what Christ has done. In the Gospel there is no mention of holiness, nor is there mention of repentance or anything else for us "to do"."The Gospel is news to be believed or rejected, and I believe that Paul lays it out very clearly in 1 Corinthians 15."
"As for the video, the guy who posted it has time and again been proven to be wrong in his assumptions of those whom he sets out to tear down."
"So I guess the main question for us to talk about would be- does Mark Driscoll preach the Gospel? To which I would answer in a resounding YES."
"That is not to say that I am wholeheartedly embracing or backing him per se, but defending him against false accusations."
Brothertom replied:
You desperately need some solid bible teachers to ground you in what the gospel IS, and IS not. I hope I say this in love.
roaringlamb wrote:
Brother I would say there is only one Gospel and that is the Good News of what Christ has done. In the Gospel there is no mention of holiness, nor is there mention of repentance or anything else for us "to do".
I just wanted to correct your statement, there is no salvation without repentance, Jesus said repent and believe. You can not not repent and be saved. No matter how you twist and turn it repentance is needed, true faith always comes with the package, faith without repentance is worthless, the devil have faith, even more then all of us, he has more correct doctrine then all of us, he has seen God, been in his presence, so to say repentance is not needed is very dangerous. Also scripture says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord, so it is also not good to say that is not "mentioned". To me the gospel is not a once upon a time i believed so all things are done set and clear, everything needs to be continued, continual faith, continual repentance, everyday pick up the cross, separated from my will, from the world and its ways and lusts, that is holiness, separation unto God. Without no man shall see the Lord, no man... this is what the NT teaches from page one to the last.
regarding driscoll i dont know, i personally believe when we need to become like the world to win the world my experience is it is because we do not have God or the power of God with us so we need make something of our own to draw people, it is fully possible to preach a correct gospel and God not be in it. But i dont know about this man,
Amen Brother Tom and HmmHmm!
Repentance is the message of the bible. It was the message of the prophets, the message of John the Baptist, the Message of Jesus, and the messge of the Apostles. It had better be our message also.
As far as Bro. Driscoll is concerned, I don't know anything about him so I don't have much of an opinion. I can say that the truth is always relevant. I also believe it is possible to modern/contemporary/relevant without watering down the Gospel to a feel good, Jesus loves us, just be a good person and you'll make it to heaven message.
Where are the preachers who still preach repentance and holiness along with Jesus loves you?
Ever wondered why they aren't the ones the masses flock too?
"Repent, for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand!"...John the Baptist.
"Unless you repent, you shall likewise perish!"...Jesus.
No mention of the Gospel here though. And it doesn't change that the Gospel "news", not "advice" or "law".
Unless you repent, I shall come and remove your candlestick". Jesus.
Again, no mention of the Gospel. Also this is to a Church is it not?
"Without holiness, NO MAN shall see God!"
No Gospel here either. And the only holiness needed is that which is imputed to us. It isn't based on our holiness(which of course a truly born again person will grow in yet never be complete until glory).
I'm stunned at your ignorance of the basics of the bible.
Please read 1 Corinthians 15, and look at the passages that say, "repent and believe the Gospel" before jumping to this conclusion about me. You do not know me, and to be frank, I don't need your help in understanding that the term for Gospel literally means "good news" or "glad tidings".
I would be interested to see what the Gospel is to you?
there is no salvation without repentance
And I agree, but the problem is that the Gospel is not repent, the Gospel is what Christ has done, that cannot be changed no matter how we try.
As for the repentance, the word means "change mind". So in effect, "change your mind about the news being presented to you" i.e. that Christ has come, died, and risen to save men from their sins.
Or if you'd like, "turn from being your own savior by your bad deeds and your good deeds and believe God's message about what He has done for your salvation" after all, in the Good news of Christ, there is a righteousness from God which begins and ends with faith, as it is written, the one who by faith is righteous shall live.
Love ya by the way my European brother.
so we can receive these good news, the gospel and not repent you are saying? we can believe the good news and not live holy? separated from the world and self? i think you have missed the purpose of the good news some how,
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
no where does anyone contradict this in their writings or say it is not so, not Paul, not Peter, not John or anyone else.
the verse about candlestick is about the church correct, this one however is to the individual. Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
so we see we need to overcome, by faith, these people belived the good news, they had recived the gospel but if they did not overcome they would be blotted out. what did they need to overcome?
Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: [b]for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and [b]repent
Rev 3:4 Thou hast [b]a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments
Jesus said it, repent and believe. We see here a group of people, all received the gospel, all believed the same thing , went to same church, perhaps held same doctrines, yet only a few would walk in white, those who held fast and repented, why was this needed for them to be saved but not for the rest of us? it may be different things, but we need to love God of all our hearts, and the next as our selves, if there is some part in our hearts that do not, we need repent until it is so. To once accept the good news and believe does not help unless it is maintained the rest of our life .
repentance, overcoming is necessary if we want to walk with the Lord in white
"He is King of Kings, Lord of Lords, and He is ruling and reigning over all people; commanding everyone, everywhere to to [b]repent
See for yourself: http://www.marshillchurch.org/about/the-gospel
You folks should repent yourself for speaking out of ignorance.
roaringlamb wrote:there is no salvation without repentance
And I agree, but the problem is that the Gospel is not repent, the Gospel is what Christ has done, that cannot be changed no matter how we try.
As for the repentance, the word means "change mind". So in effect, "change your mind about the news being presented to you" i.e. that Christ has come, died, and risen to save men from their sins.
Or if you'd like, "turn from being your own savior by your bad deeds and your good deeds and believe God's message about what He has done for your salvation" after all, in the Good news of Christ, there is a righteousness from God which begins and ends with faith, as it is written, the one who by faith is righteous shall live.
Love ya by the way my European brother.
i am not sure, but i have seen lately as repentance is the "practical" of side of faith, as we have faith in a chair will hold us up when we sit on it, we exercise that faith in our hearts, we believe but also we take the steps towards it turn around and sit. So i think the "action" of repentance, changing our mind etc is "in" faith so to speak, not separated as two totally different things necessarily. does it make sense brother? Not disagreeing with your definition but maybe there is more to it?
Love you to, nice to see you again, hope you are well and your family, God bless you and keep you close
I agree, repentance and faith are inseparable. We repent of our trying to save ourselves, and put faith in Christ's work for us. Now I think we might disagree on how that happens(me being a Calvi and all) but as I see it, faith and repentance come from a new heart that has been given eyes to see the light of the glory of Christ and His work.
Of course that is the initial "saving" work. Yet the whole Christian life is one of repentance and faith even after conversion that is why the Gospel needs to be heralded to believers and non-believers alike.
As for the family, my wife went through with the divorce and it has been one of the most intense and trying seasons I have ever gone through. But God is faithful and has sustained me even when I thought I could not go on another moment.
roaringlamb wrote:
I agree, repentance and faith are inseparable. We repent of our trying to save ourselves, and put faith in Christ's work for us. Now I think we might disagree on how that happens(me being a Calvi and all) but as I see it, faith and repentance come from a new heart that has been given eyes to see the light of the glory of Christ and His work.Of course that is the initial "saving" work. Yet the whole Christian life is one of repentance and faith even after conversion that is why the Gospel needs to be heralded to believers and non-believers alike.
As for the family, my wife went through with the divorce and it has been one of the most intense and trying seasons I have ever gone through. But God is faithful and has sustained me even when I thought I could not go on another moment.
Well i think there is much we agree on, more then we might realize, the disagreement as you say is perhaps how it works out, anyway, I am sorry to hear it went that direction for you and your wife, can "feel" much of what you must be going through, only thing I know, and this one i do not know how it works out either, but i believe it.
Rom 8:28-29
May God keep you humble brother
Rom 8:28-29
You know if I did not believe that, I don't think I could have made it.
God's grace to you.
The Peril of Not Progressing;...Hebrews 6; vs.1
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God.
roaringlamb said:
"I agree, repentance and faith are inseparable. We repent of our trying to save ourselves, and put faith in Christ's work for us."
Brothertom replies; The bible does not say that we repent "of trying to save ourselves", it says that our repentance is that of turning away from dead works; our acts of SIN! This is an elementary and fundamental doctrine of Christ; yet you see it differently. Why? Because you have been indoctrinated by men; your teachers.
This is the fundamental root of your error. "Come out of her, and be ye holy!" There is no salvation if there is no repentance from dead works. This is the message of John the baptist, Jesus, and all of the Apostles; not a repentance from trying to save ourselves, but one of turning away from sin and refusing to allow it to rule over you, by a walk in the spirit. We submit to the holy spirit within, that mortifies, or kills the works and deeds of our flesh, our carnal, Adamic natures.
This often happens when one is indoctrinated into a belief system like Calvinism and accept by rote what you have been taught, rather than reading the Word, and deriving faith from scripture alone. Of course, we need teachers, but teachers should point us to our own derivatives of faith, so that it would not rest in men, but in God alone.
roaringlamb said;" I would be interested to see what the gospel is to you."
The gospel is that we no longer have to die, and be held as slaves to our sinful natures, by living a life following Jesus in the spirit. We are liberated from the cycle of SIN and DEATH, through his sacrifice! This liberation is eternal! We are no longer destined to perish in Hades, but can know, and live with our Creator!
I am Born again by his Spirit!..and bear my cross to die to myself every day, so that He may be formed in me. "I am crucified with Christ, never the less, I live, yet not I, but Christ lives within me, and the life that I now live in my body, I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me, and gave himself for me."
I am set free from sin and death.
yoadam wrote:
reformer wrote:
being relevant always brings a crowd.
And what could be more relevant than the gospel? I'm not so sure Driscoll preaches a false gospel.
Being relevant in a worldly fashion. Style, fashion, hip, cool, coffee house, hip music all reside in many churches. The church down the street has a Starbucks inside! A my former pastor, said that you can't have a tuxedo ministry in a coffee sipping world. People want to be entertained, am I sure some come for the glitz and glamour.
What if churches were built just to house people, make it comfortable in weather conditions, but plain and modest. Basically four walls, a roof and seating? Who would go? Not many I can assure you. If you placed a church like Driscolls and a basic building (like I described) were the Gospel is proclaimed with without compromise in the full counsel of God? full?
reformer
EDIT: BTW, I never said Driscoll preaches a false Gospel...you assumed that is what I meant.
anonymity wrote:
Is it true that Driscoll would openly curse?When it comes to cursing. A curse word was just like saying may God damn you. If in the right context a curse word is not bad. Or a swear word. We are told to not swear or makes oaths. I mean our words should be wholesome so there are words we should not use. But I mean if there are any words that are really harsh it would be the words damn or hell. The f word I think not good to use as it has immoral connotations, but is often used in the way of saying damn you.
My main point in all of this is to see what is of the working of God, what is of the effort of the flesh, what is compromise, what is of the Devil, and ect so as to look at it correctly and take it as either an encouragement and example or as another example of what not to be like or if there is a mix and if so to what level on each side.
[b]Oh and I would like to hear from someone as well who actually lived in the area and attended the Church regularly!????[/b]
I believe you can find those videos on the internet.
...I knew this would happen!
yet again, another preacher getting ripped into, yet again, fellow brothers and sisters of Christ Jesus getting ripped into.
It just breaks my heart.
I'm going to testify, and I dont write this to show how "holy" or how ardent I am. God has allowed me the liberty to get into the Word every morning, for extended periods, and of late God had me go back and start at the Begininng, Genesis, and this morning I was found myself awakening at 3:30 AM, and I was in Exodus, and what a blessed time I had with the Lord and His Word, breathing and eating it, going thru the Account of how God used Moses, and what the LORD did with pharaoh. I was just blessed!!!! I was getting revelation after revelation, Who God is, what His plan is, how the plagues were one of the first really intense accounts of spiritual warfare, and it was a "war" that was won, before it even began! Glory to God! I was marveling at not only how cruel pharaoh was, but how dumb and rebellious he was, etc. I wont bore any of you, my brothers and sisters of my personal work in this regard, but I found myself noting many many Passages of Scripture, and one Passage stuck out and I believe is applicable to this particular thread, which is rapidly descending into a stench:
"And Moses said to the people, "Fear not, stand firm, and see the salvation of the LORD, which He will work for you today. For the Egyptians whom you see today, you shall never see again. The LORD will fight for you, and you have only to be silent." Exodus 14:13-14
Would to God any follower of Messiah Jesus who tells another, "please humble yourself", take that word to heart and [b]"be silent."
I love this reformer, what God led you to testify:
What if churches were built just to house people, make it comfortable in weather conditions, but plain and modest. Basically four walls, a roof and seating?
May that be a prayer! I love that vision, I crave that vision. No power points, no flowers, no raised platforms, all on one level, just bare bones basic, and let God the Holy Ghost "adorn" this humble House of God with His Spirit.
Such a place of worship would be glorios indeed, after all our Lord Jesus was born in a humble manger, wasn;t He?
wish I was an architect, and you know what? I think the humble hungry souls would come...I do.
in Jesus love, neil
ps...that was a good word, thank you brother....from your keyboard to God's ear. amen.
Too many people in here are caught up with the externals.
Is the man preaching the gospel of Jesus or is he flattering with empty words? Substance is the issue.
Christianity is heart religion first and foremost. Common guys, you all know this stuff... :-(
Consider Paul's attitude towards people who preach Christ with the wrong motive,
Philippians 1:15-18,
"15\tSome indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill:
16\tThe former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains;
17\tbut the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel.
18\tWhat then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice."
Adam.
I love this reformer, what God led you to testify: Quote: What if churches were built just to house people, make it comfortable in weather conditions, but plain and modest. Basically four walls, a roof and seating? May that be a prayer! I love that vision, I crave that vision. No power points, no flowers, no raised platforms, all on one level, just bare bones basic, and let God the Holy Ghost "adorn" this humble House of God with His Spirit. Such a place of worship would be glorios indeed, after all our Lord Jesus was born in a humble manger, wasn;t He? wish I was an architect, and you know what? I think the humble hungry souls would come...I do. in Jesus love, neil ps...that was a good word, thank you brother....from your keyboard to God's ear. amen.
Let it be so, Lord!! That would be truly wonderful! Nothing to divert our attention. Complete and total dependence on the Holy Ghost!!!! WOW! :-D
hmmhmm wrote:
...i personally believe when we need to become like the world to win the world my experience is it is because we do not have God or the power of God with us so we need make something of our own to draw people, it is fully possible to preach a correct gospel and God not be in it.
I don't know about this man Mark Driscoll either but I do believe that what you stated here is so true.
I appreciate you brother Christian and all that you mean to the body of Christ.
The bible says that Jesus is building his church and that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. We are to be men and women of prayer following the leadership of the Holy Spirit to build upon the only foundation that was laid which is Jesus Christ.
We are to take heed how we build upon because everything must be tested by the fire of God to what sort it is and if it is not of the Holy Spirits work then it will be consumed.
We must believe in God and our faith must be in his power and not in the wisdom of men.
Grace to all!
The bible does not say that we repent "of trying to save ourselves"
Brother may I ask you what idolatry is? Is it not making something or someone a means to find peace, joy, fulfillment apart from Christ?
If so, I would suggest that the Bible has MUCH to say about turning from trying to save ourselves with our good works or bad works and simply believe what Christ has done for us already.
By the way this has nothing to do with Calvinism and I am not going to go down that path as Greg has requested an end to that. So please leave that alone, and stick to the topic at hand.
Also, what do you say about 1 Corinthians 15? You haven't gotten to that yet so I was curious.
The gospel is that we no longer have to die, and be held as slaves to our sinful natures, by living a life following Jesus in the spirit. We are liberated from the cycle of SIN and DEATH, through his sacrifice!
Yes and no.
Yes that is the news to be proclaimed, but it is true whether we believe or not and even without us adding our holiness or works to it.
There are so many post about the legitimacy of someones ministry and right so.
Here are a few litmus test scriptures
I am sure you can find many others.
Luke 24:32
They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"
Does he make your heart burn and fall on your face in worshipful abandon?
1 Corinthians 2:2
For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
Does he expose the magnificient atoning act of Christ death and resurrection?
Matthew 7:16
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
What real fruit do you see in him and in the congregation? Not just numbers. Are lifes transformed to Christlikeness?
We often judge people solely by what they say. That is one of the weaknesses of the internet that the devil knows to explore. Just because people have the right theology and say all the right things does not mean they are approved by God. They can still lead people astray by attitudes, ommissions, neglect, impropper relationships. There also people with a faulty theology but their lifes demonstrate the reality of the Spirits work.
I prefer Francis of Assisi to many advocates of orthodoxy that lack the corresponding life of the Spirit.
I haven't read every post, so forgive me if this has already been posted on another page. But even if it is, it's worth re-posting.
THE RAPE OF SOLOMON'S SONG
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=417091244255
Go to the link to download the PDF. This is a series of articles published in Pulpit Magazine that talks about Driscoll's manner of cussin...- I mean, preaching.
It's coming from John Macarthur, a man who holds generally the same theology (on paper) as Mark Driscoll.
If you would like to see a video of Phil Johnson publicly rebuking "pornographic preaching" and Mark Driscoll by name, send me a PM and I'll send you the link.
Driscoll is a clear manifestation of the terrible apostasy of our times. Don't be deceived. A man who can't control his tongue from refraining from filthy language, course jesting, and foolish talk, is not fit to be a Christian, let alone a preacher.
THE RAPE OF SOLOMON'S SONG
It should also be noted that the message in question was put up without Mark's knowing and was taken down immediately after people were offended. Mark has also publicly apologized for some of the things he said in it.
As for the idea of a perfect person being fit for ministry, boy if that was the case we would not have anyone in ministry. One might not use jokes or foul words, but I am sure that their thoughts alone are enough to disqualify them.
It is so interesting to see how quickly people can judge a man and his salvation without even knowing all of the facts, or even the person themselves.
Sometimes I don't blame people for saying Christians are judgmental jerks as it sure comes across that way too many times.
As for the idea of a perfect person being fit for ministry, boy if that was the case we would not have anyone in ministry. One might not use jokes or foul words, but I am sure that their thoughts alone are enough to disqualify them.
There's a far cry between being "perfect" as you say, and being fit for ministry. It's a sad thing when people use the "nobody's perfect" slogan to justify clear immorality, worldliness, and sin in the church.
1 Timothy 3 lays down essential qualifications for a minister. One of them is that he has to be "blameless". Read it. Mark Driscoll is far from blameless. EVEN THE WORLD knows there's something wrong with cussing and using pornographic language and of conforming to the world in the name of winning followers. Using cuss words and filthy jokes is the kind of thing that my (unsaved, non-Christian) mother used to punch me in the mouth for saying back in my heathen days -and she doesn't know a page of Holy Scripture, yet has a better understanding that filthy language is wrong than many of the professing Christians on this message board seem to! The whole book of James preaches against exactly everything Driscoll does (as well as many other clear Scriptures).
James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
It doesn't take serious discernment in the Holy Spirit to see that Driscoll doesn't have the fear of God before his eyes and totally ignores the standards that the Bible commands of all Christians, let alone Gospel ministers. It only takes a serious blinding NOT to see it.
The vast majority of American Christianity is so sick. This kind of stuff would never fly in Mexico. Driscoll would be labeled a cult here amongst the majority of evangelical, Pentecostal, Baptist, and Reformed churches alike. There is a blindness over the Americanized church that is so appalling, sometimes I don't know whether to cry or whether to vomit. I know it makes Jesus want to vomit (Rev. 3:16).
roaringlamb wrote:
Sometimes I don't blame people for saying Christians are judgmental jerks as it sure comes across that way too many times.
That's pretty judgmental. Don't you think. ;-)
why do so many calvinists support Driscoll 100%?
(and come on now, it is based on the fact that he is a calvinist)
jameztree wrote:
why do so many calvinists support Driscoll 100%?(and come on now, it is based on the fact that he is a calvinist)
Some do, many don't. Many Calvinists do not support Driscoll or are very critical of him. Ie. Phil Johnson (spurgeon.org)
Please stop trying to take cheap shots at calvinists in general.
I've sat here for five minutes, maybe ten, thinking and praying what I want to write to you, but suffice to say, I'm "with" you.
The vitrol and self righteousness, the hard hearted judgemental barbs hurled back and forth, just break my heart.
I want to write a longer post, but I just dont have the [b]energy
Sometimes I don't blame people for saying Christians are judgmental jerks as it sure comes across that way too many times.
the really tragic thing is not that they [i]'say'[b]witness[b]in us?
God uses us to be a witness, to reflect His perfect love, and sometimes I feel, through our hard hearts, we fail so tragically through our own "intra-family", intercine warfare, and it just breaks my heart...and Josef, dear Josef, earnest heart, you really disappoint me, if you're reading this. My dear brother, you are most definitely entitled to your own opinion, but its just that, it's your opinion, and your words are hasty, rash and lack grace, and brother I should know, as I have written many hasty and rash words, but why? Why eviscerate this man? Why proclaim "American Christianity" sick? (I'm not sure what you mean by "American Christianity", if you mean to say say "institutionalized formal denominationalism in america, yeh, okay, that's got some traction)
but if something or someone is "sick", and Jesus lives in our hearts, and we in His, wouldnt our burden tend to the healing process? A "Balm in Gilead"? and we're never going to do that as long as we tear at another, we must be "peculiar", in that the sin sick, tormented world gazes at us longingly and enviously, marveling at "look how they love one another".
I guess that what revival means, where we get rid of the all the "religious" junk and baggage, and really get saturated with God, a God hunger and consciousness that just wipes all the junk away.
Please don't take what I wrote from my heart wrong Josef, I mean no offense, I just beg you to temper your words. I ask God for that for myself everyday.
please brethern, why cant we be a lovingly "peculiar people", burnished and emblazoned with the Heart of God within us? Jesus said He would live in us, He is truthful to that Word, why cant we live out that Reality?....and make the world envious?
Dear Jesus, please bring that revival, we need it so desperately, i love You Lord, and my brothers and sisters they love You, help us Lord, please help us Jesus...amen.
Thank you neil for your post, the burden in your heart is from God i am persuaded. Thank you for sharing it. God bless you and I for one Amen your prayer.
Intercessor & general,
I looked over your notes on your blog about meeting Driscoll: http://prayer-warrior83.xanga.com/672237978/8220all-things-to-all-men-by-all-means8221/
I was looking at his video about using media and I liked the verse he used "by all means".
You made a pretty solid post there good job.
I actually visited Mars Hill once. Interestingly I was in Seattle for a wedding and was being told it was the most unchurched city in the US. We went out and did some evangelism and I had some of the MOST unusual demonic experiences there which is a story in and of itself. I unwittingly attended Mars Hill not knowing what it was as I went with my friends. I noticed that they had some cool pictures up during worship and that the songs were well done and theological modern hymns and liked it. I was surprised how fashionable everyone was and had never really seen that many fashionable people before not even in High School, but was unsure if it was just the culture of Seattle. Some of the people seemed nice, hip and friendly, young and family oriented, the pastors were passionate about motivating towards their Acts 29 movement. I also noticed the preacher meaning Mark giving a smart message on the Bible and that he dressed young with a hole in his jeans or something. This short visit however was not enough to discern fully for me though.
I also recently saw him preach in CA at the Crystal Cathedral on the hour of power show with Robert Schuller. He gave a pretty solid message on the person of Jesus and the crowd did not seem as a majority too happy. I also watched the show afterwords and it seems they cut his message out. To me he did not even seem to preach anything really hard. I think he was using the platform as a chance to minister.
He actually said that the membership is 10,000 now. I guess there are a lot of things going on campuses and wonder what that is all about.
You know one of the most interesting things you posted was that Mark was originally with a group seeking to reach generation x with Reuben and I cant remember if the Rob Bell was in the mix. Its interesting that he was tied with that. I know someone said Bell's Mars Hill is different but I wonder if they have a history together. I would like to know more about this?
You know I have been thinking more about planting a Church recently and am looking into it. I have been thinking over some things like should I be part of a certain denomination, or is there a lot to learn from what Driscoll has done with generation x ect.
Josef,
I think you may be a little extreme on that position.
What does it mean to humble yourself does it mean not to be yourself anymore and act like people around you? A servant of Christ is called to gratify Christ not people and by doing that you are well-accepted and spoken of before men.
Who other humbled Himself more than our Lord Jesus Christ, and yet there was no sin found in Him. Was that because He was the Son of God He did seek God’s will and God’s glory first of all. When after the resurrection He mentioned that “all power is given unto Me” does not that mean the power given to Him is sufficient for us to live worthy of God who called us to inherit His Son’s glory?
1 Cor 11;1 can people say of me that I am an imitator of Christ and Paul …
is my conversation as a minister like the one in 1 Th 2;10 can God witness and the believers also that I behave holily and righteously and unblameably toward believers?
Jesus said that a disciple could be as his master. So if people are transformed are transformed to the level of their teacher or in which way?
When a offer for a job do I use foul language if not much more a slave of God will have in view that he is a salt and a light and he walks so to impress God since he is not his own anyway. A servant of Christ influence men and does not conform after men’s opinion he is not to shape but after his Master and forerunner. There is not such a think as humbling before God and live a life that does not please Him.
Eph 4;22 you put away as concerning your former manner of life ( I want to be a minister of the gospel of Christ and I repent but I am not putting away the former life). Is the former life a matter of past? (Eph 2;2 etc.).Am I ashamed of my past life? (Rom 6:21)
Tit 2:8 and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us. It looks like there are many good speakers but not all good speakers are good shepherds/example for the flock of Christ and for the world.
1Ti 4:12 … set the believers an example in speech, Tit 2:7 Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity,
Eph 5:4 nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting:
Eph 5;4 the pastor/leader is the one that give himself an example to the believers. In what manner is he an example to me. Maybe he is not a real leader or should not be one unless he first learn submission and proof through his example what a changed life looks like then he can be a leader.
We have things upside down today if I have a seminary or some form of theological school I think that I should be a leader of the church of God; but according to the word of God a qualification for leader and teacher does not stay in school or how good of a speaker I am but first in a testimony to the church of a person that knows and loves His Master.