Christian Heresies

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Christian Heresies

[url=http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/heresies.stm]Christian Heresies[/url]

Christian Heresies
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Heresy is the rejection of established beliefs of a religious body, or adherence to "other beliefs." The word "heresy" comes from the Greek word hairesis or choice. The Greek word is a neutral term.

A number of Christian beliefs were declared heresy in the early centuries of the church. Some beliefs declared heresy (Monophysitism, Monothelitism, Nestorianism) are still maintained by Christian churches today, the largest being the Coptic Church. Additionally the Roman Catholic Council of Trent declared Protestantism heresy (a council's rulings that Protestants obviously do not accept).
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Apollinarianism-- Jesus fully God -- partially or incompletely human--
Appollinaris' (c. 350) views of Christ's nature were condemned at the Council of Constantinople in 381.

Arianism-- Jesus less than God -- more than human--
The Arian controversy began in Alexandria, Egypt about 318 AD. Arius (c. 250-c. 336) was a popular Alexandrian priest whose theology about who Jesus was was condemned as heretical by the First Council of Nicaea in 325 and also at the First Council of Constantinople in 381. Arius disagreed with the Bishop Alexander of Alexandria's idea of the Trinity. Arius thought that Alexander was confusing the Son with the Father, who stressed the divinity of the Logos and also his exact likeness with the Father. Arius argued that Jesus, the Logos, was a "creature" who was "begotten" of the Father, who was "unbegotten." Arius, like Origen, believed that the Father was the only true God. The Nicene Creed was written to respond to Arianism.
See also:
Arianism (Ecole Glossary)

Docetism-- Jesus wholly divine -- his humanity and suffering only seemed to be real--
This heresy emerged in about 110 C. E. The term "docetism" is derived from the Greek word dokesis, "to seem." Ignatius warned the church of Smyrna of the danger of this new heresy.
"Docetist" was first used to identify a particular group in Serapion's condemnation of the Gospel of Peter (c 190 CE). Eusebius reports that Serapion forbade use of the Gospel of Peter on the basis of its docetism.(Eusebius, EH VI.xii).-- from Docetism by A. K. M. Adam
Donatism--personal holiness of individuals validates a church office--
Donatism, named after its leader Donatus the Great, was a form of North African Christianity that glorified martyrdom ("cult of the martyrs"). The Donatist controversy emerged about 311 but its origins were in the times following Diocletian's first edict against Christians (February 24, 303). The emperor commanded their churches to be destroyed and their Sacred Books burned.He outlawed Christianity.
Anyone who apostasized during that time by giving up the Sacred Books, by delivering sacred objects, or betraying other Christians to the government authorities were called a traditor. The Donatist schism began around 311 when a Caecilian, a man who opposed the cult of the martyrs, was irregularly elected bishop of Carthage, after the equally disliked (by the Donatists) Mensurius died. The Donatists argued that Caecilian's ordination was invalid because one of the men who ordained him was a traditor. When Constantine recognized Caecilian, the Donatists appealed. Ultimately, at Constantine's referral, a bishop's council that met in Arles, Gaul (314) rejected the Donatists' argument that a morally unworthy clergyman could not perform valid ecclessial actions. A schism then occurred with the Donatists claiming that they were the only true church. Later Augustine of Hippo (354-430) also spent a great deal of energy fighting Donatism. The schismatic African church remained into the seventh century, when both it and Roman Catholicism were overcome by the Islamic religion.
See also:
Donatists (Catholic Encyclopedia)

Ebionite-- Jesus regarded as prophet rather than divine Word of God--
Ebionites originally were a first century Jewish-Christian sect. They emphasized Jewish law and rejected Paul's teachings. Most considered him to be a man, not God. Later use of this term refers to anyone who minimizes the divinity of Christ.
Encratite--sexual continence required for salvation--
The word "Encratite" comes from the Greek word enkrateia, meaning "continence." It is a name applied to several early Christian sects, most of which were Gnostic. Encratites were ascetics who refrained from alcohol, animal products, and sex. Their ascetic practices were not heteretical but rather the theology upon which their continence was based.

The name of Tatian (c. 120-173 CE), who edited a complilation of the gospels called the Diatesseron is associated with this heresy. Around 172, Tatian became a Gnostic of the Encratite sect. Tatian reinterpreted the story of Adam and Eve and Christian documents such as 1 Corinthians 7:3-6 to support the idea that humans must abandon sexual intercourse in order to regain the Spirit of God that had been lost because of Adam and Eve's fraility. People were to be married to God, not to each other.

Eutychianism-- Christ has but one nature, divine--
Named after Eutyches of Constantinople, who with Chrysphius, and Dioscoros tried in 433 to make the 12 Anathemas of Cyril of Alexandria the standard of orthodoxy and "do in" the "inspired man" Christology of Antioch. A goal was to make Alexandria, instead of Constantinople, the second most powerful see in Christendom (next to Rome). From Cyril, Eutyches argued that Christ was one nature after the union. (See also Monophysitism and Nestorianism.)

Gnosticism-- dualistic worldview, gnosis is Greek for "knowledge"--

Gnostics did not share all the same beliefs; 13 papyrus volumes of Gnostic texts were discovered in Nag Hammadi, Egypt in the middle of the 20th century. They have given invaluable insight into this diverse movement. According to the Gnostic Society Archives, "Gnosticism is the teaching based on Gnosis, the knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of interior, intuitive means. Although Gnosticism thus rests on personal religious experience, it is a mistake to assume all such experience results in Gnostic recognitions."

Manichaeism-- Dualistic religion (good vs. evil, etc.) founded in Persia (Iran) by Syriac-speaking Manes (215-75 A.D.) --
This belief system is a blend of Gnostic Christianity, Buddhism, and Zoroastrianism.
Marcionism-- Rejection of the Old Testament and differentiation between a superior God of goodness and a God of justice, the Creator God of the Jews--
Marcion proposed the first canon based on the "Western text": it consisted of Luke and ten of Paul's epistles; however he deleted any references in these that appeared to approve of the Old Testament and the Creator God of the Jews. He also made other changes to the materials. His proposal helped to spur others to respond with other canons that retained the Hebrew scriptures and did not reject Christianity's Judeo-heritage.

Monarchianism--Undivided unity and sovereignty (monarchia) of God--
This viewpoint flourished in the 3rd century among eastern and western Christians.
•\tDynamic Monarchianism
Jesus a human who became a God--
•\tModalistic Monarchianism
Argued that the Trinity is one God with different modes of divine action rather than distinct persons.

Monophysitism--Jesus was a God with human attributes; he had one (mono) dominant nature: divine--
Monophysitism was popular in Palestine, Egypt, and Antioch. The fourth church council Chalcedon declared this belief to be heresy in 451. Descendents of the groups declared heretical still exist today: they are the Oriental Orthodox churches, who accept the first three church councils but not the fourth Their biblical canons are also different from the Roman Catholic Church. These churches, who are in ecumenical dialogue concerning the split of the church, prefer to be called "non-Chalcedonian." The Oriental Orthodox churches include:
•\tThe Coptic Church of Egypt
•\tThe Ethiopian Orthodox Church
•\tThe Syrian Orthodox Church
•\tThe Armenian Orthodox Church
•\tThe Malankara (Indian) Orthodox Church

A web page about the Coptic Church says: "The Coptic Church has never believed in monophysitism the way it was portrayed in the Council of Chalcedon! " An Ethiopian Orthodox Church web page says:
The Ethiopian Church belongs to the group of Orthodox Churches wrongly termed "Monophysite" but which prefer the epithet "Non-Chalcedonian." The other members of this family are the Coptic, Armenian, Syrian and Indian Churches. Together with the Roman Catholic Church and the Byzantine Orthodox Church they comprised the One Church for four centuries until the division arose on account of the Council of Chalcedon in 451 which insisted that Christ had the two natures of humanity and divinity.

The Oriental Orthodox churches have been responsible for the preservations of a number of ancient manuscripts that might otherwise have been lost. The Ethiopian Orthodox church has the largest Christian canon.
(See also Monothelitism; Eutychianism; and "Nestorius".)

Monothelitism--
Jesus's acts expressed one divine-human energia instead of two cooperating wills--
A Christology proposed in the 7th century by the patriarchs of Constantinople and Alexandria in an attempt to unify the Eastern church which had be split by the monophysite controversy. The Maronite Church in Syria today holds to this monthelite view.

Montanism-- An apocalyptic movement emphasizing revelation named after its leader Montanus--
Called "the New Prophecy" by its followers, Montanism, which began about 170 A.D., emphasized prophecy, direct revelation from the Holy Spirit, and a strict moral code. Two women, Priscilla and Maximilla, were leaders who delivered messages while in states of ecstasy. It announced that Jesus was about to return. It spread to Asia Minor, Antioch, Syria, and Rome. In the East, the Book of Revelation was initially rejected because it was considered to be tainted by Montanism. In the West, the Book of Hebrews was reject for similar reasons.

Nestorianism--
Refers to theology of Nestorius of Antioch, who became Bishop of Constantinople in 428 A.D.
Nestorius believed that Mary was mother only of the human Jesus, not the divine Logos and in the Antiochine "two-nature" Christology. Cyril of Alexandria (who had the female Platonist philosopher Hypatia murdered in 415) first attacked his doctrines in a letter in 428. In his third letter to Nestorius (430), Cyril attacked Nestorius' Christology and demanded that he agree with Cyril's 12 Anathemas, which condemned the Antiochine theology of two natures. Nestorius was to agree that the Word of God suffered in the flesh (not that only the human part of Jesus suffered).

Politics became heaviest at the Council of Ephesus in 431. Nestorius' strongest supporters, John of Antioch and other Syrians were delayed because of weather. Nestorius himself was given military protection because of danger to his person at the hands of the monks related to Memnon, bishop of Ephesus and strong supporter of Cyril. Nestorius' views were misrepresented --he was accused of teaching that Christ was only a human being-- and he was excommunicated. Four days later, the Syrians arrived and condemned Cyril and Memnon. Then the Roman delegates of Pope Celestine arrived and deposed John of Antioch.

In short, the situation was a mess and the bad feelings and actions did not end at Ephesus. (See a church history book for more information.) In 435, Nestorius, who continued to insist on his innocence, was exiled to the Egyptian desert.

Certain bishops in Syria agreed with Nestorius and founded a new church. There still is a small Nestorian church based in Iran, whose New Testament canon is the smallest of Christian churches (22 instead of 27 books)
(See also Monophysitism; Eutychianism; and "Nestorius".)
Top

Sabellianism-- See Modalistic Monarchianism--
Sabellius originated this theory of the Trinity, which flourished in the 3rd century.
Top

For Further Study
Encyclopedia of Early Church History -- articles from the Ecole Initiative including information about these heresies:.
•\tThe Arian Controversy (Chronology)
•\tDocetism
•\tMonarchianism

[url=http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/heresies.stm]Christian Heresies[/url]

Montanism-- An apocalyptic movement emphasizing revelation named after its leader Montanus-- Called "the New Prophecy" by its followers, Montanism, which began about 170 A.D., emphasized prophecy, direct revelation from the Holy Spirit, and a strict moral code. Two women, Priscilla and Maximilla, were leaders who delivered messages while in states of ecstasy.[b]It announced that Jesus was about to return[/b] . It spread to Asia Minor, Antioch, Syria, and Rome. In the East, the Book of Revelation was initially rejected because it was considered to be tainted by Montanism. In the West, the Book of Hebrews was reject for similar reasons.

Interesting history lesson Brother, very good.

I wonder if the state of Montana gets their name from this group?

As ususal, Deepthinker, you are dead wrong:

[b]Montanism-- An apocalyptic movement emphasizing revelation named after its leader Montanus-- Called "the New Prophecy" by its followers, Montanism, which began about 170 A.D., emphasized prophecy, direct revelation from the Holy Spirit, and a strict moral code. Two women, Priscilla and Maximilla, were leaders who delivered messages while in states of ecstasy.It announced that Jesus was about to return . It spread to Asia Minor, Antioch, Syria, and Rome. In the East, the Book of Revelation was initially rejected because it was considered to be tainted by Montanism. In the West, the Book of Hebrews was reject for similar reasons.

Deepthinker posts:
Hmm, the spirit of Montanism is still alive in the majority of main stream churches today, they are still saying that "Jesus could come back at any moment".

Interesting history lesson Brother, very good.

I wonder if the state of Montana gets their name from this group?

Montanism took place in 170 A.D. [b][u]Israel was no longer a nation.[/u][/b] [color=990000][b]The Believing Church has always known that for all of of the Prophecises, found throughout the Old Testament, and the New Testament in regards to the return of Jesus Christ to this Earth REQUIRED THAT ISRAEL BECOME A NATION AGAIN.[/color][/b]

That happened in one day on May 14th, 1948. This one day event, prophesized in Isaiah 66:8 started the time clock ticking again.

Isaiah 66:8
8. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day?[u] or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.[/u]

[color=990000]It is the first time in history that a nation that had been totally been dispersed in 70 A.D., and then again in 135 A.D. would keep their identity as a separate people group, with their same language (Hebrew) and WITH THEIR SAME RELIGION, and at the same time become a Nation again. They became a nation again at the same place where they were a nation 2000 years before!!! This has never happened before, ever. The reason? Because God is control of History.[/color]

Whatever or whoever is providing you with your "information" is not of the Holy Spirit. How do I know that? Because you continue to speak in error and ignorance of God's Word.

Sincerely,

Walter

DeepThinker wrote:

Montanism-- An apocalyptic movement emphasizing revelation named after its leader Montanus-- Called "the New Prophecy" by its followers, Montanism, which began about 170 A.D., emphasized prophecy, direct revelation from the Holy Spirit, and a strict moral code. Two women, Priscilla and Maximilla, were leaders who delivered messages while in states of ecstasy.[b]It announced that Jesus was about to return[/b] . It spread to Asia Minor, Antioch, Syria, and Rome. In the East, the Book of Revelation was initially rejected because it was considered to be tainted by Montanism. In the West, the Book of Hebrews was reject for similar reasons.

Hmm, the spirit of Montanism is still alive in the majority of main stream churches today, they are still saying that "Jesus could come back at any moment".

Interesting history lesson Brother, very good.

I wonder if the state of Montana gets their name from this group?

Whatever or whoever is providing you with your "information" is not of the Holy Spirit

You seem to have the right answers. I won't taint your threads with any more of my foolishness.

Keep up the good work. God Bless :-)

What should we do with the teaching of all these 'Calvinistic heretics'?

Charles Spurgeon
Matthew Henry
George Mueller
William Carey
John Knox
Martin Lloyd Jones
B B Warfield
George Whitefield
Jonathon Edwards
A W Pink
John Bunyan
Wycliffe
Zwingli
John MacArthur
Augustus Toplady
John Owen
Horatius Bonar
John Piper
The Puritans
John Newton
The Huguenots
Noah Webster
Augustine
William Tyndale
Charles Hodge
Loraine Boettner
RL Dabney...

I choose not to read any Calvinist authors or to listen to any Calvinist preachers. 99% truth is still falsehood. I can't stand that Calvinist stuff anyways. It makes me so upset. I just can't fit Calvinism into my Bible, and I wouldn't want to. I really believe that limited atonement is another gospel. And I just heard from MacAuthurs Church, when I went there, that God has eternally decreed every event, even every sinful event, so that He get's "all the glory".... Saying God is the author of sin does not give Him any glory! Sin does not glorify God, obedience does. God is glorified by an obedient people, not a sinful people. And I especially do not listen to any preachers who say, "we are all sinners" and "you can't be perfect" or "you can't stop sinning" or "we all sin every day". If I hear a preacher say that he sins every day, he has nothing to offer his congregation and he might turn out to be the next Jimmy Swaggard or Ted Haggard.

I really enjoy reading the writings of:

John Wesley,
John Fletcher,
William and Catherine Booth,
George Fox,
Albert Barnes,
Adam Clarke,
Charles Finney,
Leonard Ravenhill,
E. M. Bounds,
Duncan Campbell,
Michael Brown,
Paris Reidhead, etc.

Whew, yea hey Koheleth your right there is a cool breeze in here.

I agree that Christ is not suppoased to be divided. A divided body wouldn't get very far would it? I also know that we must discern error and call it what it is and then if need be divide from it.

When we do divide we must not do it quickly. Be longsuffering instead. I speak as one who has failed at this in the past and probably will fail at it in the future.

As usual, ADisciple, you are wrong again

Specifically, you posted:

[b]

Sigh. I will just go on record as one in "the believing church" who does not believe that Isa. 66.8 was fulfilled in 1948.

The "holy nation" is born when "Zion" travails. And Peter makes clear who this "holy nation" is (1 Pt. 2.9). It includes (according to the apostle Peter, if his view carries any weight) both Jew and Gentile, those who at one time "were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy" (1 Pt. 2.10).

But... sigh. I'm sure what I've just posted will, sadly, cause some to see, and no doubt post, red.

Response to ADisciple:

Israel has been promised it’s 1,000 year “Millenial Reign” upon the Earth, when Christ returns to the earth, at the end of the Tribulation.

The believing Church, that you refer to above, will come with Christ, in their new resurrected bodies AT HIS SECOND COMING. The believing Church will rule and reign with Christ during this promised 1,000 millenial reign, where the lion will lay down with the lamb:

Zechariah 14: 1-9

Zechariah 14

1. Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come,[color=990000][b] AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE.[/color][/b]
6. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7. But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

I posted this once before, and for your benefit ADisciple, I post it again:

Christ is the firstfruits of the Resurrection.
1 Cor 15:20-23
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

We (believers) are the firstfruits of the Spirit, that will receive our new resurrected bodies when he comes to get us at the rapture, as described above, and we will be like Him! The rapture takes place before the Tribulation and the “Day of the Lord”.

Romans 8:23-25
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

When we receive our new resurrected bodies, we will be like Him!

James 1:18
18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures

This is another description of the Rapture and the receipt of our new resurrected bodies:

1 Cor 15:52-57
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is another description of the Rapture.
1 Thes 4:13-17
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This passage describes what will happen when Christ comes back to redeem us to Himself. We will be perfect like Him in all ways!
1 Cor. 13:9-12
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1 John 3:2
2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear (at the Rapture), we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure/
xxxxxx

Next, we find a description of the Lord'S SECOND COMING-- coming back to the earth WITH HIS SAINTS (that would be the resurrected Church, described above, from the RAPTURE). . This clarifies for us that there is more than one resurrection (Firstfruits of the Resurrection). First, the rapture and resurrection, that occurs before anit-christ is revealed, described above, and then another resurrection of the souls of those that have become believers during the Tribulation, that have been be-headed by the antichrist, AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION:

Zechariah 14
1. Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6.And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7.But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

This describes the rapture of the people that were not saved before the Tribulation (Jews and Gentiles), that went through the Great Tribulation and became believers in Christ (saved) and were beheaded during the tribulation. At the end of the Tribulation Christ throws Satan into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years and judges the beheaded believers (described above). This is a judgment of rewards, not punishment. The judgment of punishment is the Great White Throne Judgment mentioned in Rev. 20:11 and is for all non-believers.
Rev 20:1-6
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.] This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Sincerely,

Walter

To ChrisJd:

The name of the thread is "Christian Heresies".

It would be a good idea if you went back to the beginning, to see what was said, before jumping in with both feet and your own opinion, and at the same time calling names as well. The entire post consists of only 3 pages!

Sincerely,

Walter :-D

ChrisJD wrote:
Waltern,

As usual, ADisciple, you are wrong again

What sort of accusation is this?

[color=990000][b]I'm sure I have not read everything that AD has posted since he has participated here,[/color][/b] but reading as much as I have I cannot see how this is in any way, shape, or form, a fair and accurate statment to make about him.

Friends, beware of a man that cannot cease from accusing others. Beware of that man.

How are we to respond to others, those that are Christians? Are we never to judge them, and their doctrine they mistakenly post?

One of the most misquoted scriptures in the Bible is probably found in Matthew 7:1, "Judge not that ye be not judged." I hear this verse multiple times a day when I am posting online. All too often I have heard sincere, misinformed Christians and unbelievers alike say, "I don’t want to judge anybody, but..." Ironically, the one who screams "judge not" is often the one passing judgment on me!

What does the Bible Really Say About Judging:

"The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment."

(Psalms 37:30)

Strong's Number: 4941

Transliterated: mishpat

Phonetic: mish-pawt'

Text: from 8199; properly, a verdict (favorable or unfavorable) pronounced judicially, especially a sentence or formal decree (human or [participant's] divine law, individual or collective), including the act, the place, the suit, the crime, and the penalty; abstractly, justice, including a participant's right or privilege (statutory or customary), or even a style: --+ adversary, ceremony, charge, X crime, custom, desert, determination, discretion, disposing, due, fashion, form, to be judged, judgment, just(-ice, -ly), (manner of) law(-ful), manner, measure, (due) order, ordinance, right, sentence, usest, X worthy, + wrong.

"With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth." (Psalms 119:13)

Strong's Number: 4941 (SEE ABOVE)

Transliterated: mishpat

Phonetic: mish-pawt'

"Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy." (Proverbs 31:9)

Strong's Number: 8199

Transliterated: shaphat

Phonetic: shaw-fat'

Text: a primitive root; to judge, i.e. pronounce sentence (for or against); by implication, to vindicate or punish; by extenssion, to govern; passively, to litigate (literally or figuratively): --+ avenge, X that condemn, contend, defend, execute (judgment), (be a) judge(-ment), X needs, plead, reason, rule.

"Now, thou son of man, wilt thou judge, wilt thou judge the bloody city? yea, thou shalt show her all her abominations." (Ezekiel 22:2)

Strong's Number: 8199 (SEE ABOVE)

Transliterated: shaphat

Phonetic: shaw-fat'

Jesus commended Simon, "Thou hast rightly judged." (Luke 7:43)

Strong's Number: 2919

Transliterated: krino

Phonetic: kree'-no

Text: properly, to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by implication, to try, condemn, punish: --avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.

"But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."

(1 Cor 2:15)

Strong's Number: 350

Transliterated: anakrino

Phonetic: an-ak-ree'-no

Text: from 303 and 2919; properly, to scrutinize, i.e. (by implication) investigate, interrogate, determine: --ask, question, discern, examine, judge, search.

"Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" (1 Cor 6:2)

Strong's Number: 2922

Transliterated: kriterion

Phonetic: kree-tay'-ree-on

Text: neuter of a presumed derivative of 2923; a rule of judging ("criterion"), i.e. (by implication) a tribunal: -- to judge, judgment (seat).

"Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?" (1 Cor 6:3)

Strong's Number: 2919 (SEE ABOVE)

Transliterated: krino

Phonetic: kree'-no

There are many other passages and verses in the Bible about judging. While God is our ultimate Judge, He has also commanded us to judge according to the Word of God.

According to the Noah Webster’s 1828 Dictionary, to judge means

JUDGE, v.i. [L. judico.]

1. To compare facts or ideas, and perceive their agreement or disagreement, and thus to distinguish truth from falsehood.

Judge not according to the appearance John 7.

2. To form an opinion; to bring to issue the reasoning or deliberations of the mind.

If I did not know the originals, I should not be able to judge, by the copies, which was Virgil and which Ovid.

3. To hear and determine, as in causes on trial; to pass sentence. He was present on the bench, but could not judge in the case.

The Lord judge between thee and me. Gen.16.

4. To discern; to distinguish; to consider accurately for the purpose of forming an opinion or conclusion.

Judge in yourselves; is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? 1 Cor.11.

Therefore, when you say that your neighbor is a "good person," you are passing a judgment (forming an opinion) just as much as when you say that the thief is a "bad person."

If there were no judgment...

All the prisons would be empty and thieves, serial killers, drug dealers, rapists, and murderers would be loose in your neighborhood.

You could not discipline your children and teach them not to steal, lie, do drugs, or give in to peer pressure.

School could not be mandated (by parents or govt) but if children did attend, they could not be evaluated as to their progress. Everyone should graduate regardless of their advance. Students could not be graded or disciplined.

You could not judge any false doctrine and would have to allow it to be taught from your church’s pulpit ("discerning" is the same thing as "judging").

You should leave your children with anyone who said was qualified to be a baby-sitter. You should not bother to check his/her background. Later, you should not be upset if this baby-sitter turned out to be a child-molester, because "thou shalt not judge."

You should marry anyone that asked. You shouldn’t worry about his/her character or beliefs. What if he beats you up? What if she runs around on you? You shouldn’t get so mad because "thou shalt not judge."

Can you now see the folly of such un-Biblical doctrine? The devil has been successful to push the church further and further into a corner, while everyone else comes out of the closet with their sins. Most often, those who tell you "not to judge" them do so because they are either hiding something or want to continue doing it without reaping negative effects for it. In the campuses where we have been, students say that we shouldn’t judge (form an opinion of) fornicators, drunkards, liars, homosexuals, or the like. However, they fail to realize that sin harms them and their neighbors. A caring, loving Christian will judge all situations according to the Word of God and call sinners to repentance.

The church has become intimidated by the opinions of the world as they scream, "You religious bigots, hatemongers, and intolerant people (which are judgments in themselves), do not judge me!" However, God clearly commands us to judge so we won’t be deceived. Why would the command to judge be so vehemently attacked in society? Obviously, if the church stops judging and using our common sense, we will no longer be able to distinguish good from evil, we will buy into the politically correct idea of moral relativism (what’s good for you may not be good for me), and we will bow down to the devil’s wishes to deceive us, our family, and our friends.

Even more disturbing is to see church leadership saying, "do not judge." Many pastors lead their sheep astray and keep them under their manipulative control by telling them that they have a "critical spirit," they are "prideful," or "judgemental," while all they are trying to do is to discern the truth. If you find yourself in such a church, FLEE for your (spiritual) life!

Now let’s take a look at the famous verse that is so misquoted today and put it in its PROPER context. If we are intellectually honest when looking at this passage, we will find that it is actually teaching us to judge, not to refrain from judging! We have inserted a few comments in brackets.

Mat 7:1-5 "Judge not, that ye be not judged [do not judge others if you do not want to be judged by others; everyone will be judged by God]. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again [if you judge others, they will judge you by the same measures]. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye [how can you judge someone when you are guilty of the sin yourself]? Thou hypocrite [this is the audience in the context; a hypocrite is one who is not living what he is preaching], first cast out the beam out of thine own eye [FIRST judge yourself and get your own life cleaned up]; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye [THEN after you get your life straight, you will be able to discern clearly and you are commanded to help clean your brother’s eye!].

Other misquoted Scriptures:

Romans 14:3-10. This is about dietary preferences, things that are not essential to salvation.

Romans 2:1-3. We have the same scenario of Mat. 7. We should not judge others IF WE ARE GUILTY OF THE SAME THINGS OURSELVES. WE MUST FIRST CLEAN UP OUR OWN LIVES THROUGH REPENTANCE AND FAITH, AND THEN WE ARE QUALIFIED TO JUDGE OTHERS..

James 4:11 says that we are not to speak evil of other "brethren" -- those who are obediently doing the will of God (Mat 12:50). This does not apply to those living in willful sin.

How Are We to Judge?

1. We are to judge righteously. Jesus commands in John 7:24, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

Judge by the Word of God and Its principles, not by someone’s skin color, whether they are tall or short (inherited physical traits), etc.

2. We are to judge without hypocrisy. "And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?" (Rom 2:3)

We are to judge ourselves FIRST to see if WE are guilty of that sin. Live what WE preach. Only after we get your life cleaned up by turning from our sins and receiving pardon through repentance and faith in Jesus (i.e. we get saved) we can go and help others to be saved too.

Sincerely,

Walter

Leo_Grace wrote:
Dear Brothers in Christ,

I have read this thread on Christian heresies, and I find there is useful information to be gleaned from the various posts. However, [b]aside from the topic itself, there seems to be an overwhelming spirit of pride and ridicule in many of the posts here that seriously detracts from the edification of readers.[/b]

For example:

waltern said:

As ususal, Deepthinker, you are dead wrong: ...
Whatever or whoever is providing you with your "information" is not of the Holy Spirit. How do I know that? Because you continue to speak in error and ignorance of God's Word.

imnowhere said:

Jimotheus wrote... Quote: Waltern Greetings: You neglected to mention one more: CALVINISTIC FATALISM.

Everybody! Jimotheus has an important anouncement? According to Jimmy, these men were/are all heretics...

Charles Spurgeon Matthew Henry George Mueller William Carey John Knox Martin Lloyd Jones B B Warfield George Whitefield Jonathon Edwards A W Pink John Bunyan Wycliffe Zwingli John MacArthur Augustus Toplady John Owen Horatius Bonar John Piper The Puritans John Newton The Huguenots Noah Webster Augustine William Tyndale Charles Hodge Loraine Boettner RL Dabney... and too many others to write.

Thank you Jim, for pointing out that all of the greatest theologians of the church age were but heretics. You must be one fine theologian to sit over this type of scathing judgement.

...
Jimotheus, you haven't replied. What should we do with the teaching of all these 'Calvinistic heretics'?

waltern said:

As usual, ADisciple, you are wrong again.
...
I posted this once before, and for your benefit ADisciple, I post it again:...

waltern said:

To ChrisJd: The name of the thread is "Christian Heresies".

It would be a good idea if you went back to the beginning, to see what was said, before jumping in with both feet and your own opinion, and at the same time calling names as well. The entire post consists of only 3 pages!

Because of this unbecoming spirit of pride and ridicule, two brothers have decided to refrain from further contributions, and others have expressed their disgust in earlier posts.

I respectfully ask all who visit this thread to search their hearts for their real motives before posting.

Let us all meditate on these verses:

[b]Pr 21:24 The proud and arrogant man—“Mocker” is his name; he behaves with overweening pride.

Phil 2:3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.[/b]

In Christ's Love,
Leo

To Leo:

If you would have taken the time to read the entire thread, you would have found that the rebuke came from ADisciple, not me:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[color=CC0000][b]From Walter to Deepthinker:

The Believing Church has always known that for all of of the Prophecises, found throughout the Old Testament, and the New Testament in regards to the return of Jesus Christ to this Earth REQUIRED THAT ISRAEL BECOME A NATION AGAIN.

That happened in one day on May 14th, 1948. This one day event, prophesized in Isaiah 66:8 started the time clock ticking again. [/color][/b]

[b][color=0033FF]ADisciples reponse to my post to Deepthinker:

Sigh. I will just go on record as one in "the believing church" who does not believe that Isa. 66.8 was fulfilled in 1948.

The "holy nation" is born when "Zion" travails. And Peter makes clear who this "holy nation" is (1 Pt. 2.9). It includes (according to the apostle Peter, if his view carries any weight) both Jew and Gentile, those who at one time "were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy" (1 Pt. 2.10).

But... sigh. I'm sure what I've just posted will, sadly, cause some to see, and no doubt post, red.[/color][/b]

Walter continues:

[color=CC0000][b]This is a post about Damnable Heresies. How are Damnable Heresies started? By spreading FALSE DOCTRINE.

I defended my post with Bible Doctrine, while ADisciple used Doctrine that had no basis in truth. God is not through with Israel. God's covenant with Israel is an everlasting covenant.

Now, if you want proof of that, I would be more than glad to post it.

God is not through with Israel. He has great plans for Israel that are prophesized throughout the Old Testament. The Millenium is one of those promises, one of those many, many prophesies of His chosen people (the Jews).[/color][/b]

Sincrely,

Walter

Leo_Grace wrote:
Dear waltern,

How are we to respond to others, those that are Christians? Are we never to judge them, and their doctrine they mistakenly post?
...
How Are We to Judge?

1. We are to judge righteously. Jesus commands in John 7:24, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

Judge by the Word of God and Its principles, not by someone’s skin color, whether they are tall or short (inherited physical traits), etc.

2. We are to judge without hypocrisy. "And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?" (Rom 2:3)

We are to judge ourselves FIRST to see if WE are guilty of that sin. Live what WE preach. Only after we get your life cleaned up by turning from our sins and receiving pardon through repentance and faith in Jesus (i.e. we get saved) we can go and help others to be saved too.

Sincerely,

Walter

No one said anything about not judging. In fact, I agree with your last post that judging, if done in the proper way, is a necessary part of the fellowship of believers. I also agree that some verses have been misappropriated to curtail this essential element of the church.

However, if we are to judge, or rebuke, or criticize our brothers, it must be done with humility and love, not ridicule and pride.

In Christ's Love,
Leo[/quoteFrom[/color]

[color=990000][b]This post is a response to the following posters on this thread (Damnable Heresies):

ChrisJD, ADisciple, Deepthinker, Leo, Clarkforest and any others out there who believe that“Israel” has been replaced by the "Church":[/color][/b]

[b]Replacement theology is a “Damnable Heresy”, the mistaken belief that God has replaced the Jews & Israel with the "Church". This view teaches that the Church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian Church, not in biblical, literal, Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Land of Promise are "spiritualized" into promises of God's blessing for the Church. The prophecies of condemnation and judgment, however, still remain for national Israel and the Jewish people. This view has been called Replacement Theology because the Church replaces Israel in the program of God. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, there being no future for the Jewish nation, how do we account for the supernatural survival of the Jewish people, Israel's rebirth among the gentile nations, victories in major wars with the Arabs and a flourishing modern democratic Jewish state?

The Church is Totally Different and Distinct from Israel [/b]

Although being suppressed throughout the history of the Church, the view that Israel and the Church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. In this view, the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the Church is an entirely new creation, that came into being on the Day of Pentecost and will continue until it is translated to Heaven at the Rapture (Eph. 1:9-11). The Church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel, the covenants, promises and warnings are valid only for Israel. Israel has been set aside in God's program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion. The Lord has preserved the Jewish people through great persecutions, though they are largely in unbelief.

After the Rapture (1 Thess. 4:16-18) God will restore Israel. The first event at this time is the "Time of Jacob's Trouble," also known as the Great Tribulation. This is a horrible period of seven years, which begins moderately during the first half then intensifies in full during the latter half. The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the Great Tribulation for the Second Coming of the Messiah. Now, when Christ does return to the earth, at the end of the Tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel which survives the Tribulation will be saved and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with the capital as Jerusalem. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King. The Church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Rev. 20:1-5).

[color=990000][b]What Did The Apostolic Church Believe? [/color][/b]

Almost all students of the early church agree that Premillennialism, or Chiliasm, was the most widely held view of the apostolic church. Philip Schaff, the noted authority on church history writes, "The most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene Age [A.D. 100-325] is the prominent chiliasm, or millenarianism, . . . a widely current opinion of distinguished teachers, such as Barnabas, Papia, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Methodius, and Lactantius" (Philip Schaff. History of the Christian Church. New York: Scribner, 1884, Vol. 2, p. 614).

Premillennialism began to die out in the established Catholic Church during the time of Augustine, though it has always survived as a Church doctrine. Even when it has not been widely known it survived through "underground" and "fringe" groups of Believers. The last 200 years have seen the greatest development and spread of Premillennialism, which, like the early church, recognizes a future glorious hope for literal Israel. Beginning in Britain and spreading to America, consistent Premillennialism, known as Dispensational Premillennialism, has come forth as a major theological view in the Church.

[color=990000][b]The Biblical Basis for Premillennialism [/color][/b]

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a Premillennial understanding of God's plan for humanity. Even so, the strongest support for Premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1-7, where it says, six times, that Christ's kingdom will last 1,000 years. After the Tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth with Jerusalem as His capital and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The Church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. 1 Philip Schaff. History of the Christian Church. New York: Scribner, 1884, Vol. 2, p. 614.

[b]There are multi-references to Israel and it's land in the Old Testament. Israel's sin and captivity did not change their divine right to this land. Many people have said that God's promise to give Israel the land was based upon Israel's faithfulness to God's laws, and that when they were disobedient and sent into captivity, this nullified God's promise. The Bible teaches otherwise. In Leviticus 26:40-45 we read that God would punish Israel for their disobedience and send them into captivity. BUT ACCORDING TO VERSES 44-45, GOD WILL BRING THEM BACK!
"44. And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the Lord their God.
45.\tBut I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the Lord."

In Deuteronomy 30:3-5 God promises:
"[Then] the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee. 4. If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5. And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers."

Jeremiah 16:15 gives this promise from the Lord, "For I will bring them back into their land which I gave to their fathers." Jeremiah 31:10 says, "He who scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him as a shepherd does his flock." Isaiah 43:5-7 tells us that God will bring Israel's descendents from the east, and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' And to the south, 'Do not keep them back!' Bring my sons from afar, and My daughters from the ends of the earth." Amos 9:14-15 thunders forth these remarkable words: " And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God."

God's promise to Israel is as certain as the existence and order of the Universe!! Jeremiah 31:35-57 leaves no doubt in our minds of this fact:
"Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord."

The name of this land is not Palestine, but Israel. Twenty-five hundred years ago the prophet Ezekiel spoke of the restoration of Israel to its land in the last days. Ezekiel spoke of dry bones coming to life. Never before in history has a nation been destroyed and scattered all over the world and then brought back to life. It is a miracle, and a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Ezekile 37:11-12 says: " Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel."---Notice, that the name of the land is ISRAEL. The land that so often is called the "land of Canaan" in the Bible. God says that in the last days it will be called "ISRAEL".

[u]The full restoration of Israel to its land with complete peace and security will require the coming of the Messiah.[/u]

Many people want to know why Bible-believing Christians all over the world have such a heart for Israel and its land. What brings the Jews and Christians together? How can their hearts beat as one? Have they not disagreed sharply over the Person of Jesus of Nazareth? Have not the Jews suffered terribley at the hands of the so-called Christians throughout the history of the Church? What draws the Bible-believing Christian to the support of the people of Israel during this difficult hour in the history of the world? What makes these Christians stand by the nation of Israel when most nations of the world refuse to stand by her? There is only one answer. It is because of the Bible itself. If you believe the Bible, then you know, whether you are a jew or a Christian, that it is through the promise given long ago to Abraham (an irrevocable promise, an irrevocable covenant). They have come to believe that the only hope of the world is the coming of the Jewish Messiah promised by the writers of Scripture.

Zechariah tells us that the Lord will come and place His feet on the Mount of Olives. He will fight for His people Israel against all nations of the world. All the land of Israel will dwell in saftey and peace when the Messiah comes. He will rule and reign from Jerusalem, the Son of David, sitting on His throne. Regardless of Israel's sins of the past, the Lord will forgive, cleanse, and restore. Jeremiah 31:31-34 says:
" 31. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Zechariah 13:1 says- "In that day a fountain shall be opened for the House of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for uncleanness". The prophet Isaiah said in chapter 59, verses 20-21:"20. And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.
21.As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever."

Ezekiel 39:25-29 speaks of this great day of restoration: " 25. Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; 26. After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. 27. When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; 28. Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. 29. Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God."[/b]

[color=990000][b][u]What can be said for those "Christians who do not believe the Bible nor accept Israel's right to the land?. As "Christians" we cannot say on the one hand that we believe there is a God Who has revealed His perfect will in His Holy Scriptures, and on the other hand deny Israel its right to the land God promised her. Our commitment to Israel is that which the psalmist clearly stated so long ago:[/u]
" Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces.
For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.
Because of the house of the Lord our God I will seek thy good.
(Psalms 122:6-9)

[u]Almighty God has already determined the rights of Israel to its land.[/u] Lest you think God is a passive observer to all that takes place in the land, of Israel, listen to the words of Deuteronomy 11:12, “a land for which the Lord your God cares; the eyes of the Lord your God are always on it, from the beginning of the year to the very end of the year.”

Before we examine what God says about the land of Israel, lets define what we mean by the word LAND. What land are we taling about? Genesis 15:18 gives us some dimensions: “The Lord mad e covenant with Abram, saying: “To your descendents I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river—the River Eurhrates.”

On many occasions, God refers to this land by calling it “the land of Canaan.” When the Lord spoke to Moses about this land in Numbers 34:1-15, He gave some additional insight as to its dimensions. He specifically laid out the southern, western, northern, and eastern borders of the land. There are many interesting details in that Scripture affecting several disputed territories in Israel’s present situation.

In order to answer the question, “What rights does Israel have to its land? I would ask you to consider the following Biblical facts:

[u]FACT ONE (1): This land belongs to God.[/u]

Leviticus 25:23 states:
“The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is Mine, for ye are strangers and sojourners with Me.”

[u]FACT TWO (2): The land was given by God to the descendents of Abraham:[/u]

In Genesis 12:7 we read:
“And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed (descendents) will I give this land.”

[u]In Genesis 13:15 He repeated His promise when He said, “for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendents FOREVER,” He said the same thing in Genesis 15:18, “Unto thy seed (descendents) have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:[/u]

[u]FACT THREE (3): The Gift of this land to Abraham and his descendents was based on an UNCONDITIONAL covenant from God:[/u]

Genesis 17:7-8 states:
“And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

The sign of that covenant for Abraham and his descendants was circumcision. Twice in this passage God mentioned the [u]EVERLASTING NATURE of this covenant.[/u] There are some today who say that this covenant was conditional, that it was based on Israel’s faithfulness to God. The BIBLE TEACHES OTHERWISE. In Psalm 89:30-37 we read:
“If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.”

[u]I agree that God promised to judge His people if they disobeyed Him. I do not agree that Israel’s disobedience would forfeit their right to the land. The promise of the land was not based upon Israel’s performance but upon God’s oath and character—He will not lie![/u]

Deuteronomy 7:7-9 reminds us:
“The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; “

[u]FACT FOUR (4): This land was not given to the descendents of Ishmael, but rather to the descendents of Isaac.[/u]

[u]FACT FIVE (5): This land was not given to the other sons of Abraham, but only to Isaac.[/u]

[u]What Did The Apostolic Church Believe?[/u]

Almost all students of the early church agree that Premillennialism, or Chiliasm, was the most widely held view of the apostolic church. Philip Schaff, the noted authority on church history writes, "The most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene Age [A.D. 100-325] is the prominent chiliasm, or Millenarianism, . . . a widely current opinion of distinguished teachers, such as Barnabas, Papia, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Methodius, and Lactantius" (Philip Schaff. History of the Christian Church. New York: Scribner, 1884, Vol. 2, p. 614). Premillennialism began to die out in the established Catholic Church during the time of Augustine, though it has always survived as a Church doctrine. Even when it has not been widely known it survived through "underground" and "fringe" groups of Believers. The last 200 years have seen the greatest development and spread of Premillennialism, which, like the early church, recognizes a future glorious hope for literal Israel. Beginning in Britain and spreading to America, consistent Premillennialism, known as Dispensational Premillennialism, has come forth as a major theological view in the Church.

[u]The Biblical Basis for Premillennialism [/u]

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a Premillennial understanding of God's plan for humanity. Even so, the strongest support for Premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1-7, where it says, six times, that Christ's kingdom will last 1,000 years. After the Tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth with Jerusalem as His capital and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The Church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. 1 Philip Schaff. History of the Christian Church. New York: Scribner, 1884, Vol. 2, p. 614.

Sincerely,

Walter

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:

Leo_Grace wrote:
What is unbecoming of Christians is when we do this in the spirit of pride and an intent to ridicule.

...and the awesomest comment of the thread award goes to..

This really is the key. It simply isn't conducive to edifying discussion to begin a post with "as usual you are wrong again", whether it is a frequent occurrence or not. Anyhoo, I certainly hope that Walter will heed what is been said by his brethren, and stop hiding behind his "It is my duty to expose error" defense.

It's all quite sad because, calvinist/arminian debates aside, this has potential to be a great topic of discussion[color=990000] (even if I do agree with ADisciple about Israel;-)).[/color][/b]

Dear ADisciple:

Thanks for explaining your views. It would be helpful to all of us if you would use Scripture to support each and every one of them.
Thanks,

Walter :-D

ADisciple wrote:
Walter,

I wonder if you were sitting with me in my living room... would you be speaking to me in red? If so, I doubt you'd be able to draw me into a conversation about this.

But just let me say... I don't embrace replacement theology... nor Scofield dispensationalism either.

What I embrace is what perhaps I will call "making-all-things-new" theology... which is perhaps similar to what Taylor calls "expansion theology," in which, under the New Covenant, God has brought into being a new Israel that includes both Jew and Gentile, who in Christ are heirs together of the promises. (Edit: So the church doesn't "replace" Israel: it brings the believing Gentiles in and includes them with believing Jews in an Israel made new under a New Covenant.)

As to the land God promised Israel of old, even Abraham, Isaac and Jacob of old had vision enough to see something better than that... along with all those the writer of Hebrews had in mind when he said, "But now they desire a better (country), that is an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for He hath prepared for them a city" (Heb. 11.16).

Notice that: a BETTER.

Our true heritage now-- both for the Jew and the Gentile-- is "in the heavenlies in Christ." And I'm not just talking about dying and going to heaven. It's a reality God is calling us to enter into here and now. Yet it seems all too often that is so unreal to us, too ethereal, just too far out.

But it is our heritage in Christ Jesus. Read 1 Peter 1.3,4. "An inheritance... reserved in the heavenlies for you..." Read Ephesians. It's so clear there, particularly Eph. 2.11,12,13, where the Gentiles (of which I am one) who at one time were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise..." are now "made nigh by the blood of Christ."

...Walter, we can think ourselves so valiant for the truth, yet can actually be tearing Truth Himself with a wrong attitude toward others.

...May the Lord bless you, brother. I mean that sincerely. Some of your posts on this sight I have sincerely appreciated.

AD

There are some in Protestant circles who deny that there will be any such conversion. One strand of Protestant thought, which at times has been called "replacement theology," holds that since the Church is the New Israel and the inheritor and fulfillment of many Old Testament prophetic.aspirations, it has replaced the Jewish people as the chosen of God in such a way that they now hold no special place in God’s plans. Since they are just like any other people in every respect, they will play no special role in the end times and will experience no corporate conversion to Christ.

Reacting against replacement theology is the Protestant school of thought known as dispensationalism, which began in the first half of the nineteenth century under the impetus of John Nelson Darby. According to dispensationalism, the Church is in no respect (or virtually no respect) a New Israel.

The Church age is, in the classic dispensationalist way of putting it, a "parenthesis" in God’s plan of the ages, which concerns the Jewish people. At the beginning of the Church age, dispensationalists hold, God turned aside from dealing with the Jewish people in order that a (primarily) Gentile Church might be built up. After the Church is taken out of the picture by the Rapture, God will turn back to dealing with the Jewish people.

They will therefore play a key role in the end times. There are many, detailed prophecies yet to be fulfilled concerning them. And one of these is most definitely a corporate conversion of the Jewish nation to Christ, either involving every single Jewish individual alive at the end or at least a sufficient number that the nation as a body can be regarded as Christian.

The two extremes of replacement theology and dispensationalism within Protestantism (and there are middle, moderate positions) sometimes cause problems. Dispensationalists often regard everybody but themselves as advocates of replacement theology and, consequently, as "spiritualizers" of God’s promises to the Jews who do not take these promises—or God’s word in general—seriously.

That is not the case. The Church regards both Jews and Christians as complimentary and overlapping peoples of God. We are both elect. Those Jewish individuals who are also Christians might be regarded as doubly elect, or elect on two grounds. While the Church is the New Israel, this does not obliterate the identity of the Old Israel, nor deprive it from playing any role in God’s plan of the ages. In particular, it does not remove the prophesied conversion of the Jewish people in the last days.

Quote from Aaron's article -

[i]"This Confessional Church was pivotal amongst those who aided the Jewish people, during the Holocaust. They understood clearly that when Jesus spoke of the "least of his brethren" that first and foremost, his brethren were the descendants of Israel. Many who aided the Jews ended up in concentration camps alongside those that they tried to protect. There are those amongst eschatological commentators who cite this historical fact when claiming that the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" of the Old Testament and the "Great Tribulation" of the New Testament are interlinked, describing Jewish and Christian perspectives of the same ultimate event. Art Katz has often described dreams that some have had where men with balaclavas drag people out of their houses because they are amongst those who love the Jewish people. Consider a scenario where Israelites will suffer extreme persecution, based purely on their ethnicity. How much more will the suffering who associate themselves with such a people, by choice?"[/i]

Truly appreciating page 8 right now.
Thank you!

Edit: from Article - [i]"Leonard Ravenhill was quoted to say, "The prophet is a tragic figure. He suffers for the people, with the people and by the people." [/i]