Romans 6, 7 & 8

I would like to begin a discussion of Romans 6, 7 & 8 and related passages in order to develop a better understanding of what it truly means to be dead to sin. I believe that these three chapters hold a great portion of the key. Shall we begin with Romans 8:1-31) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (AV)2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:8:1) Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (NASB)In Romans 7-9 Paul is teaching us that Old Testament laws are good, holy, and Spiritual- but apart from Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we are carnal and sold under sin. When we are in Christ we have died to the 'law of sin.' When we speak of the 'law of sin' we are not saying that the law of Moses was sin. It is to say that when a commandment comes apart from the fulness of the Holy Spirit rebellion rises up and that law that was intended to be of life becomes death to us because it arouses all manor of concupiscence. This is because sin is somehow resident and remains dormant until a commandment comes. As Paul said, "When the commandment came sin REVIVED and I died." That indicates that the law by itself could never take away sin. The letter killeth. Yet when the same person is in Christ and full of the Spirit, God's commandments are not grievous and a delight in them manifests in the inward man. To switch metaphors for a moment- the Commandment becomes a source of fulfillment- in that, "Our meat is to do the will of Him that sent us." When we are in the 'flesh' and devoid of the spirit of God that same commandment will serve as an opportunity for the Carnal man to rebel and 'fulfill' the lusts of the flesh. The flesh (carnal man) is 'fed' or 'fullfilled' by DISOBEDIENCE to God. The Spirit filled man is fulfilled by obedience. The carnal man will grow in strength in their wickedness as they remain devoid of the Spirit of God and rebel against the commandments. The Spiritual man grows up and is built up in Christ as they remain full of the Spirit and haply accept the commandments of Christ and do them.We have become dead to the law by the body of Jesus Christ. It is staggering to think of all that took place at the Cross. We died to sin with Christ if we are in Him. We also died to the law of commandments contained in ordinances. In dying to the law we remove the catalyst that causes sin to revive in us. Yet, we are not lawless by any means because we are to be FULL of the Holy Ghost and walking in the commandments of Christ. This is where things get tricky. If we cease to be FULL of the Holy Ghost it seems that a void is created in us that must be filled with something. If we fill that void with earthly things we do not have the fulness of the Holy Ghost to keep all of this (Romans 7-9) working. When the fulness ceases- victory over sin is impossible. We shift into a carnal mode and when the commandment comes sin revives and we die. Where once we delighted in the laws of God we are now tempted to sin by the same laws. Why? It seems that in the absence of the fulness of the Holy Ghost the law has the effect of death- but when we are living in fulness the commandments bring sustanence. Good Place to Start,Any Thoughts?God Bless,-Robert

Any Thoughts?Just a few.:-? Have you got a good Kevlar helmit? ;-)

Yes, it's the helmet of salvation. :-) What's your take on all this brother Ron? I am trying to come to an understanding of these things desperately- I feel like I'm getting closer all the time. My main point of thinking that is different than what I have seen in the past is the necessity of maintaining a continuous state of fulness of the Holy Ghost in order to live out the Christian life in the fulness of all God intended. When we start to 'empty out' (metaphorically) the things of this world come in and the whole dynamic changes.Ezekiel 36:23 - 28I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the Gentiles, which you have profaned in the midst of them: that the Gentiles may know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord of hosts, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the Gentiles, and will gather you together out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land. And I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols. And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit in the midst of you:and I will cause you to walk in my commandments,, and to keep my judgments, and do them. And you shall dwell in the land which I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.Let er' rip! God Bless,-Robert

Let er' rip! Here we go...I think your starting point is right but I am not sure about your finishing point. I sometimes see Romans 6 and 7 as illustrations of the truth that Paul established in the latter part of Romans 5. If you read straight from the end of Rom 5 to the beginning of Rom 8 it actually hangs together quite well, and the ancients of course did not have the tool of the parenthesis; For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord... There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (Rom 5:19-21 KJV)(Rom 8:1-3 KJV) I think the whole of 6 and 7 could be regarded as a parenthesis.Rom 6:3 has Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Rom 6:3-6 KJV) Youngs Literal shows that the definite article should be before the word baptism; we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk. (Rom 6:4 YLT) Now I don't think that 'the baptism' which is a baptism into Christ's death is water baptism. There are other indications too. This is not baptism in the name of Jesus, the usual Acts designation, but baptism into Christ Jesus Himself. A Niagara of water could not achieve this.The phrase is echoed in Colossians; in whom also ye were circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh in the circumcision of the Christ, being buried with him in the baptism, in which also ye rose with him through the faith of the working of God, who did raise him out of the dead. (Col 2:11-12 YLT). Again it is 'the baptism'. This time it is even more clear that water baptism is not in mind. If we follow the flow of the ideas water baptism is not generally followed by burial.I think the key to the next chapter is the kind of person that Paul is talking about. He is talking about ... so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (Rom 6:3 KJV) Following through into the remainder of Rom 6 it is only these who have had their 'old man co-crucified with him' and later only these who can 'reckon themselves dead indeed'. We are not talking evangelical positional theology here but experiential reality.

Rom 6:3 has Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.Great! Lets keep going. So we see then that we are dead to the old man experientially and in a real way. We are dead to the devil, dead to sin, dead to the world, dead to the flesh. And in that death we are now free to be married to Christ and the New Covenant and all that comes with that. The point I am trying to come to terms with is an experiential reality of still having to deal with sin and temptation at certain times. Ezekiel 36 (I think) says, "I will put my Spirit in them and cause them to walk in my commandments..." Does it stand to reason that Paul was saying "Be ye filled with the Spirit" because that fulness is necessary to walk in the Spirit. When we cease to actively be filled with the Spirit we hinder our ability to truly walk in the Spirit? God Bless!-Robert

Great! Lets keep going. So we see then that we are dead to the old man experientially and in a real way. We are dead to the devil, dead to sin, dead to the world, dead to the flesh. And in that death we are now free to be married to Christ and the New Covenant and all that comes with that.I think these stages are identifiable but not necessarily separable. 'the baptism' is into a Christ who in His experience has already passed through death to sin, resurrection and being seated in heavenly places. The Spirit that flowed from the throne has, please excuse the crude analogy, all the flavours through which Christ has passed. We do not need a list of separate experiences but we do need to be marinaded in that Spirit.Does it stand to reason that Paul was saying "Be ye filled with the Spirit" because that fulness is necessary to walk in the Spirit. When we cease to actively be filled with the Spirit we hinder our ability to truly walk in the Spirit?Even the 'new man' needs constant renewal; and have put on the new man, that is being renewed unto knowledge after the image of him that created him: (Col 3:10 ASV)Here's an illustration from the world of computers. (Experts please correct the illustration if necessary.) A monitor works by having a chemical coating which retains the image projected upon it. The coating only retains the image for a short while. Monitors have 'refresh rates'; the higher the rate the more rock steady the image. This is because the image is not 'maintained' but 'refreshed' and hence moving pictures etc etc. The image of the new man requires continues refreshing in full knowledge according to the image of Him that created him. Where does the light go when you blow out the candle? Light is a process, so is life. Christ's life in us is not just a single event but a process which can only be kept 'fresh' by the continuing flow of the Spirit; for I know that this shall turn out for me to salvation, through your supplication and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ; (Phi 1:19 Darby) this 'supply' is literally a 'further supply'.How we doin' so far?

The Spirit that flowed from the throne has, please excuse the crude analogy, all the flavours through which Christ has passed. We do not need a list of separate experiences but we do need to be marinaded in that Spirit.Sorry, I meant to state that all those things happened at a definite moment together and not individually.Where does the light go when you blow out the candle? Light is a process, so is life. Christ's life in us is not just a single event but a process which can only be kept 'fresh' by the continuing flow of the Spirit; for I know that this shall turn out for me to salvation, through your supplication and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ; (Phi 1:19 Darby) this 'supply' is literally a 'further supply'.This is a good analogy! We are being transformed into His image from day to day by the Spirit of God. The question for me is- what happens when the computer gets tired of refreshing itself? What happens when a person does not actively seek to be filled with the Spirit by the various means (prayer, the word, psalms and hymns, spiritual songs, etc.)? Does it become a situation kind of like my computer at work- the power drops and my battery back up kicks in to keep the whole thing from shutting down. I hear a click and a flicker of the screen- but everythings stays up. the battery back up must be God's grace and Him allowing us a space to repent of not being continuoisy filled? How we doin' so far?Good! no bumps on my head and I think we getting somewhere! Lets keep looking at it! :-) God Bless,-Robert

Brother Robert wrote:Great! Lets keep going. So we see then that we are dead to the old man experientially and in a real way. We are dead to the devil, dead to sin, dead to the world, dead to the flesh. And in that death we are now free to be married to Christ and the New Covenant and all that comes with that. I look at it a little different. Paul writes to the Corinthians, " I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you by Christ Jesus., that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterances and all knowledge. even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you. so that you come short in no gift eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Corinthians 1:4-7Here Paul teaches that when one enters into a relationship with Christ one has access to all that Christ has to offer. Yet what does Paul say in chapter 3:1? "And I brethren,, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ." Paul states that they are unable to understand spiritual matters. The Corinthians have no sought hard after God. In 2 Corinthians 6:11-18, Paul gives his diagnosis of the Corinthians problem. vs 12, "You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by b]your own affections.[/b]" Paul is pointing to their following of the carnal ways. What solution does he give them? He quotes from the OT, "Come out from among them and be seperate, says the Lord." John teaches us about the believer's spiritual condition. "I write to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake. I write to you fathers, because you have known HIM who is from the beginning, I write to you, young men, because you have overcome the wicked one." 1 John 2:12-13Here John makes a distinction between levels of spiritual maturity. First, the children are forgiven their sins. This is the state of the Corinthians when Paul labels them "babes in Christ." Secondly, John identifies the young men as those who have overcome the wicked one. Later in verse 14, John gives us an additional insight as to how these young men overcome the wicked one. "...because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you." And thirdly, John identifies the mature in Christ by saying that the fathers have known Him who is from the beginning." While some may say that the children will persevere in the faith because of Christ's death, Paul teaches that only those who choose to obey the commands of the Spirit will overcome the carnality that still threatens the walk of a babe in Christ. See Romans 8:13We are given access into all grace that is given to us in Christ Jesus. The hope is alive as long as we obey. The just shall live by faith. Our paths defines the evidence of what we hope in. Is it the world, or do we seek to come near to Him who will give us HIS LIFE. It is only HIS LIFE that can save.In Christ Jeff

Our paths defines the evidence of what we hope in.Thanks for the additional insight Bro. Jeff. It kind of goes along with something I was thinking last week about when Christ said, "yet when He returns will He find FAITH in the earth?" The strength of their faith in God seems, at least in most cases, to determine how close to God a person lives. If they are weak in faith they will not take Christ seriously. I know that we ought to make a distinction between belief and faith- but I felt there was a connection between these points that we could explore further- because, "without faith it is impossible to please Him." Could the root of a lack of holiness and victory be traced back to good old fashioned unbelief?God Bless,-Robert

Faith comes by hearing the word of God. As John pointed out, young men become strong in the word of God. It is the word that fills our heart which will change our desires in this life. Do we choose to hear the word, or do we choose another day living for the things of this world. Where is our treasure? As you pointed out Robert, it is unbelief in the promises that God gives us in His word. It is unbelief that the Spirit of God strives against. Salvation is everyday. Do we want to be near so that we can hear? Or do we shrink back. Each of us must count the cost. We stumble, and sometimes become the prodigal son. Yet for those who remember the goodness of our Lord and return, He is faithful to convince us of His ways. Paul was convinced, can we say the same?In ChristJeff

Very interesting discussion. I've been praying and pondering about this in my own life.Brother Robert you said I know that we ought to make a distinction between belief and faith- but I felt there was a connection between these points that we could explore further- because, "without faith it is impossible to please Him." Could the root of a lack of holiness and victory be traced back to good old fashioned unbelief?To believe God means not only to trust Him but to obey Him. I don't have access to the Greek words, but the Greek words (pistos? I'm far from a Greek scholar) denote both things. Remember the old hymn "Trust and obey, for there's no other way, to be happy in Jesus but to trust and obey." The two things go together.With unbelief, the same issues are wrapped around each other as well. So unbelief would be a lack of trust and disobedience.The question I've been raising to myself is whether I actually trust his words to be true. If I don't trust them, why would I obey them? Unbelief means that we trust Satan more than we trust God and that's why it's such a grievous sin.The other question if it's an area of sin "Is do love my sin and want to stay in it?."I think many think that "believing God" is simply a mental assent but that's clearly short of what the scriptures articulate.There's a great series by Beth Moore entitled "Believing God" that you may find useful. It reaffirmed many of the things the Holy Spirit had been showing in my own life.

I know that we ought to make a distinction between belief and faithHi RobertWhat does this mean?The KJV only uses the word 'belief' once; But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: (2Th 2:13 KJV)but this is just the word πίστις (pistis) - faith.

What does this mean?Hi Bro. Ron,I was referring to the rendering in James 2:19 (Pisteuo?). I don't know that the tense matters so much,- just the passage that makes a distinction between a dead carcass and a living one. So also, faith that is without 'works' is dead. I used the term 'belief' loosely to designate the faith that does not believe unto obedience. Assent of the mind, superficial agreement with basic facts, etc.; as opposed to saving faith that saves unto obedience to the faith (good works). The devils 'believe' (pisteuo) but are in a state of rebellion. This was also true of many of the Pharisee's- they 'believed' but they were resisting the Holy Ghost at the same time. They read the Law, made proselytes after their own kind, tithed mint and cummin, etc., but they always resisted the Holy Ghost. Therefor they did not seek to attain righteousness by genuine 'faith' because that would have required wilfull submission to the Holy Ghost and they would not submit willingly- like the devils. Agreement with facts in the context of resistance to the Holy Ghost = unbelief.God Bless,-Robert

On a couple of occasions Paul refers to 'faith unfeigned'. LIterally, faith without hypocrisy. Hypocrite is the Greek for actor. This is faith without pretence; the genuine article.When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. (2Ti 1:5 KJV)The only reason Paul would have to qualify what kind of faith he was talking about is because there is another kind; fake faith or perhaps 'dead' faith. I think 'unbelief' has a slightly different connotation. It has the sense of defiance. It is refusal to believe rather than inability or mere mental assent. Nevertheless, I see what you are saying now. I had just not appreciated the kind of distiction you were making in the words 'faith' and 'belief'.James might almost have called your 'belief' dead faith. There is a kind of acknowledgment of truth which is utterly without life; it is without life giving spirit. It is not really faith, it is faith's corpse.

I understand the reason for making the distinction between "faith" and "belief", although I prefer explicitly calling the latter "mere mental assent," because it can easily cause confusion, in my opinion.On another note, what does the father mean when he says,"Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief" (Mark 9:24)? Is a sense of defiance also intended here?(Philologos, I have some outstanding questions in the thread, "correct applications", just in case you have missed them).

Brother Ron quoted: But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: (2Th 2:13 KJV)I look at this Scripture in the same way as Paul told the Corinthians that they had been given all things in Christ Jesus. For those who actually experience salvation through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, these will know the faithfulness of God. Not merely that He exists, but that His work in us is to prepare us to glorify His name. This is His plan. I look at the book of 1 John as a self examination test. Do we who profess Christ, have the mind of Christ? I am not talking about knowing that the promise is available, a free gift. I am talking about realizing the promises through our walk with our Savior.In Christ Jeff

Brother Ron quoted:When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. (2Ti 1:5 KJV)In another place Paul writes of Timothy, "For I have no one like-minded, who will sincerely care for your state. For all seek their own, not the things which are of Christ Jesus." Philippians 2:20-21I believe Paul is talking about Timothy's spiritual maturity. Imagine, Paul says that He has no one else who is like minded. No one else who ministers because he love Jesus more than anything else in his life. We know that those who traveled with Paul were committed. Yet there is still remaining some hypocrisy in their lives. I look at hypocritical faith as something that combines our desires for both worldly infatuations, self serving motivation with our heavenly instilled desires. "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10 Before we can glorify His name, He must prepare us, He must refine us, He must equip us beforehand. It is we who work according to our carnal ways who minister from a hypocritical faith. It is our unbelief that God can fill us with everything that could ever satisfy us. That is why we still live to be self-sufficient. In ChristJeff

I used to think that Romans 7 applied to believers but the more I've been meditating and praying on this chapter the more I believe it relates to unbelievers.How can one be born again if he/she hasn't died? I'm struggling to understanding this chapter and realize that many commentators would suggest that this came after Paul's conversion.

I used to think that Romans 7 applied to believers but the more I've been meditating and praying on this chapter the more I believe it relates to unbelievers.I think one of the clues in Romans 7 is that it is 'without the Spirit'. ie there is no reference to the indwelling Spirit which according to Romans 8 is the defining feature of 'those who are Christ's'; But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Rom 8:9 KJV)Note that this does not actually say what most evangelicals want it to say. This does not say that all Christian's have the Spirit; it says that all who do not have the Spirit are not His. The mathematicians on this site might help us with the 'logic' of this statement. At the point of direct revelation it currently states...not having the Spirit = not HisI am cautious about the 'logic' of taking it much farther...The definition of 'His' is stated in terms of 'having (or not having) the Spirit. We usually define 'His' by 'decision', 'believing', etc. Paul clearly defines 'His' in terms of 'having the Spirit'.

I used to think that Romans 7 applied to believers but the more I've been meditating and praying on this chapter the more I believe it relates to unbelieversThis is exactly how I felt all my life and I comforted myself with the idea, that even Paul wrote about a state where it is not he who sins, but the sin which is within him. But This June the Lord did a very big work in my heart and showed me while I was studieng the book of ROmans, that I lived in sin and was sold unto sin. That it was the sin in me doing the things yes, but that showed me even more in what a state I was. This is what the Lord showed me and I dont want to argue about it, but that is who I was also. I wanted to do the good but did the bad. Now God showed me that if there is sin in my life which I dont lay off and stop with, I cannot enter his Kingdom. I was lost with all my good doing praying and bible reading! God used all this to bring me back to Him, as I once was HIs but terribly backslided. NOw was I His as a backslidden? I believe so, but I had to come back to Him to be in His house and presence again as the son went back to the father.This is written in short and might sound confusing, but I dont have more time to write all I want. It is trust and obedience.In ChristJanus

I used to think that Romans 7 applied to believers but the more I've been meditating and praying on this chapter the more I believe it relates to unbelieversI know a Bible College Professor who actually taught that at an A/G Bible College. But I have to disagree. All 3 Chapters are referring to the message of the Cross. What the Apostle Paul was refering to was how the Believer, even though they have come to the saving knowledge of Christ has accepted him as their personal Savior, they are still living under the Law, although the Law really had nothing to do with their conversion. Romans 7:9 "For I was ALIVE without the Law once..." (Paul is referring to himself personally and his conversion to Christ; THE LAW, he states, HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS CONVERSION; neither did it have anything to do with his Life in Christ)"...: but when the Commandment came,..."(Having just been saved, and not understanding the Cross of Christ, he tried to live for God by Keeping the Commandments through HIS OWN STRENGTH AND POWER; in his defense, no one else at that time really understood the Cross; in fact, the meaning of the Cross, which is actually the meaning of the New Covenant, would be given to Paul)"...sin revived,..."(the sin nature will always, without exception, revive under such circumstances, which results in failure)"...and I died."(Obviously Paul was not talking about a physical deathe, but that he died to the Commandmen; in other words, he failed to obey no matter how hard he tried; let all believers understand that if the Apostle Paul himself couldn't live for God in this matter, neither can you nor anybody at that matter!) (KJV/JSM)Just this one verse proves to us that it's referring to the Christian that is struggling by the Law to fufill the Commandments of God which in self is not at all possible. But when YOU are dead to the Law and to the deeds of the flesh(all your "holiness and righteousness/best I can do to live for God" is no good. Isaiah says our righteousness is as filthy rags), through the Cross, Christ through you will through the power of the Holy Spirit fufill the Law. (Gal. 2:19,20)(Phil. 3:9-11)God Bless!The Evangelist

Br. Evangelist,You speak the truth. Look to Job 36 for the insight that was given to Job by Elihu. The disciple has a choice to obey or not to obey. In his flesh there is nothing good. It will never be any good. It is only by obedience to the Spirit that the flesh is crucified by Jesus. It is all about the cross. In ChristJeff

Praise God!!! That's powerful. I've just been blessed to read & hear that Brother Jeff. Praise the Lord for your post. It's all about the Cross!!!The Evangelist

It is true that Romans 7 is based on Romans 6, but then Romans 6 is based on Romans 5. It is in the latter half of Romans 5 that Paul, having spoken of God's provision for sins now begins to show God's provision for sin. It is important to a right understanding of this section of Romans to make a clear distinction between 'sins' which are the acts and 'sin' which is the inner dynamic. 'Sin' is the disease, 'sins' are the symptoms. 'sin', as the inner dynamic cannot be forgiven, it must be brought to an end. We have discussed this at length in 'orignal sin' but inevitably it must be raised here, otherwise Romans 6-8 float in the air.Rom 5:12 speaks of 'the sin'; because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin; (Rom 5:12 YLT) Youngs Literal Translation draws attention to the definite article which precedes the word 'sin' in this context. 'Sin' is personified here. Roman 5:12 is making giving us a unique revelation and telling us that at a point in human history 'the sin' entered the world. This is a vital aspect of truth because it demonstrates that 'the sin' is older than the human race and came into the human race from outside. This is the original 'alien' invasion. When it passed into the human race it brought 'the death' with it. Not just physical death, although that is included but the spiritual death that God warned would take place 'in the day you eat of it'. On that day in human history 'the sin' entered and 'the death' followed and our race 'died' in its relationship to Life.Sins were forgiven in all covenants, but it required the death of Christ as the old Adam to break the power of 'the sin' in our race, and it requires the personal indwelling of the Holy Spirit poured out from the throne to apply this freedom to the individual.

Br. Gregg wrote:The Law is what needs to preach before Gospel or its heresy. Martin Luther stated in his day there were people who preached "only grace" and he considered that a false gospel.Do we not here and see the results of preaching the Gospel of grace all around us. Many Christian today live by the law and are still in bondage to the law. It is only when you hear the voice of God convicting you of your sin, It is only when we begin the follow the Holy Spirit do we indeed begin to understand the total depravity of man. It is only then do we see the evilness of this world for how God sees it do we begin to see the spiritual law that condemns it. A babe in Christ, will never understand the depravity of self. He is too busy creating ways to stay off the cross. In ChristJeff

Greg, you're right to that degree. Why was the Law given? And why was the standards of the Law set so high? It was to show us that in our own strength we could never be able to keep that standard, no matter how hard we tried. The point I'm trying to make is that there is no justification in the Law.Galatians 3:24,25 says:v.24 "Wherefore the Law was our schoolmaster..."(should have been translated "guardian")"...to bring us unto Christ,..."(proclaims what the end result of the Law was intended to be)"that we might be justified by Faith."(This proclaims to us that the Law had no permanent function, but served only until Christ would come. It is only by FAITH IN CHRIST THAT ONE CAN BE JUSTIFIED. You must remember a man who was used by God to reform the Church using Habbakuk & Paul's words "The Just Shall Live By Faith...here's a hint: read your post) ;-) v.25 "But after that Faith is come,..."(Paul is speaking about the finished Work of Christ on the Cross) "...we are no longer under a schoolmaster."(This should actually say, "We are no longer under the guardianship of the Law." The Law was TOTALLY FUFILLED IN CHRIST.)(KJV/JSM)God Bless.The Evangelist

Do we not here and see the results of preaching the Gospel of grace all around us. Many Christian today live by the law and are still in bondage to the law. It is only when you hear the voice of God convicting you of your sin, It is only when we begin the follow the Holy Spirit do we indeed begin to understand the total depravity of man. It is only then do we see the evilness of this world for how God sees it do we begin to see the spiritual law that condemns it. Man, do I hear you Brother! That's good. God bless, The Evangelist

"They said to Him, "Grant us that we may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on Your left, in Your glory.""But Jesus said to them, "You do not know what you ask, Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?"They said to Him, "We are able."So Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink the cup that I drink, and with the baptism I am baptized with you will be baptized;..." Mark 10: 37:38His disciples did not understand the cross. Yet Jesus promised that they would be baptized into that cross. New believers cannot understand the cross, but if they learn from Him and take His yoke they too will experience the work of the cross in their life. Many who profess Christ today disparage the law. But what does the writer of Psalm 119 say? "I long for Your salvation, O Lord, and You law is my delight." vs 174Paul writes, "For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man." As we follow Christ we will learn to delight in His law. We by following Christ will truly experience what John the Baptist declared. He must increase and I must decrease.As Evangelist said, the law given on Mount Sinai, was only given to teach what sin was, and that recognition of ones condition will lead you to Christ. The question is do we recognize our depravity the depravity of man as God sees it? Or are we poluted by the effects of Humanism?The law of faith in Christ will cause us to understand the spiritual law of God. In ChristJeff

Chapter 7 is definitly for the Believer!!!

Not this believer.

quote]Not this believer.And your reason to believe that Romans 7 isn't refering to the Believer is why? I'd truly like to know. A servant of Christ,The Evangelist

think one of the clues in Romans 7 is that it is 'without the Spirit'. ie there is no reference to the indwelling Spirit which according to Romans 8 is the defining feature of 'those who are Christ's'; But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Rom 8:9 KJV)Or you can see it this way...Romans 8:9 "But you are not in the flesh,..."(In one sense of the word, Paul is asking the question, "since you are now a Believer and no longer depending on the flesh, why are you resorting to the flesh?")"...but in the Spirit,..."(As a Believer, you now have the privilege of being led and empowered by the Holy Spirit; however, He will do such for us only on the premise of our Faith in the Finished Work of Christ)"...if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you."(if you are truly saved.) "...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His."(Paul is really saying that the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives is made possible by what Christ did at Calvary.)(KJV/JSM)The Evangelist.

Hey everyone!I must admit that I almost feel criminal saying anything in this discussion because I have been away from the forum for so long, yet I have not really been “away” but, I have been enjoying all your posts.I think that Watchman Nee has a slightly different twist on this exact discussion from his book (the normal Christian life)…if anyone is interested it is under the “downloads” section from the “other speakers” section. All the discussions are 30 minutes long or less...In ChristJames

No thanks, I'm learning from the Bible and what it says first before I listen to anything by anyone else.

"...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His."(Paul is really saying that the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives is made possible by what Christ did at Calvary.)(KJV/JSM)No he isn't. If he had wanted to say that he would have said it."...but in the Spirit,..."(As a Believer, you now have the privilege of being led and empowered by the Holy Spirit; however, He will do such for us only on the premise of our Faith in the Finished Work of Christ)Nope, he ain't saying that either. ;-)For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Rom 8:14 KJV) He says the criteria for recognizing 'sons of God' is that they are 'led of the Spirit'. He is not talking about privilege or potential but actuality.Paul is saying that it is the actual presence of the indwelling Spirit that identifies someone as 'His', and that it is actually being led of the Spirit that identifies someone as a 'son of God'.

Br Ron wrote:Paul is saying that it is the actual presence of the indwelling Spirit that identifies someone as 'His', and that it is actually being led of the Spirit that identifies someone as a 'son of God'.Paul also identifies that those who are the sons, "if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together." Romans 8:17. I believe Paul is teaching of the cross. Listen to the verses prior. "Therefore brethren, we are debtors-not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh, for if you live according to the flesh you will die.; but if by the Spirit , you put to death the deeds of the body you will live." Romans 8:12-13The cross is clearly taught here. First one cannot teach that a non-believer has the choice to follow the Holy Spirit or his flesh. That is in direct opposition to Scripture. The unregenerated man can only follow his carnal ways unto death. Man is totally depraved. Period. So Paul teaches that a believer has a choice to follow his old ways of the flesh or submit to being led by the Holy Spirit. If he chooses the ways of the flesh he dies. If he choose the way of the Spirit he lives. And if by the Spirit, this believer will suffer the death of his fleshly ways. And this is to the glory of God and the power of His promise for all the children.You know Paul once spent his energies studying the traditions of men, then when Christ was manifest in him, he then considered all those traditions as rubbish. Hear the Scripture, do not deny the words of Jesus. Do not honor the traditions of men. Those traditions will keep you from your cross.In Christ Jeff

I think we miss an important point when we focus on whether chapter 7 is written in reference to regenerate or unregenerate man.Paul has already established, in previous chapters, that the Law could not justify a sinner in the sight of God. In chapter 7 it seems clear that he is showing that the Law can't bring sanctification either. I think the point to consider is that in every case, whether a man is regenerate or not, the Law is not sufficient to bring peace and sanctification just as it is not sufficient to justify, or pardon, or deal with the evils of sin. Paul is simply completing his case here in chapter 7 showing us that the Law is unable to meet any of these needs of men. This prepares us for the glorious victory of 7:25 and on into chapter 8. In Christ,Ron

Nope, he ain't saying that either. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Rom 8:14 KJV) He says the criteria for recognizing 'sons of God' is that they are 'led of the Spirit'. He is not talking about privilege or potential but actuality.No he isn't. If he had wanted to say that he would have said it. ;-) *wink, wink* Actually Jeff you have an outstanding point! "Philologos" Don't let your name get to you brother. :-? The Evangelist :-)

"Philologos" Don't let your name get to you brother.Can you explain?

Here's another thing. I'll keep it a little basic so people can actually understand what I'm saying. Why in the world would the Apostle go from Chapters 5 & 6 (dealing with the believer)to chapter 7 (dealing with the unbeliever) then back to chapter 8 (dealing once more with the believer)? Is it because he forgot what he wanted to say to them so he had to bring it back up? Why in the world? That's a whole lot of nonsense. But the way I see it is, you're missing one of the main points of the New Covenant and also a great blessing by believing that this chapter was dealing with the non-believer. Are there not Christian people who are struggling with sin? Yes, there are. And I don't say this from a harsh spirit, I say it out of concern that the reason for it is that they are believing the same lie that you are. Romans 6, 7, & 8 cannot be separated. It's trying to cross a bridge with no middle. It's tring to build a home with no roof. It has leaks and they're coming from somewhere, but where? Exactly my point. Romans 7 is for the believer. If they throw it out, they'll continue to have the same old problems with sin because they are still under the Law of Moses. I know what it is to stumble and get up stumble and get up. But now I'm knowing freedom in the New Covenant and NOT the Old Law. His Blood Still Sets Men Free!!!The Evangelist

Can you explain?Just a little humor. In other words, don't think to hard. You'll blow a few brain cells.

Just a little humor. In other words, don't think to hard. You'll blow a few brain cells.Philologos is a lover of the Word not a thinker about it. When you love something or someone you always give it your best attention.

Philologos is a lover of the Word not a thinker about it. When you love something or someone you always give it your best attention.Yes, I'm sure you are. I'm glad to hear that.

theevangelist wrote:In other words, don't think to hard. You'll blow a few brain cells.I would rather be out of my mind, living in eternity than battling with carnal ideas of God and his ways. :-P

Philologos is a lover of the Word not a thinker about it. When you love something or someone you always give it your best attention.Yes I'm sure you are. Thanks for sharing that with me brother. Now lets get back to Romans 6, 7, 8. Thanks

:-P I would rather be out of my mind, living in eternity than battling with carnal ideas of God and his ways. Yes I'm sure you would. That's why you'd take the time out to stick your tongue out at me. Now let's get back to Romans 6, 7, & 8. I appreciate it.

Bless you friend.

Yes I'm sure you are as well. That's why you'd take the time out to stick your tongue out at me. Now let's get back to Romans 6, 7, & 8. I appreciate it.Now hold on guys. This may be the way we behave out in the street but were not on the street corner here we are in a family, or so I thought.

philologos wrote:Now hold on guys. This may be the way we behave out in the street but were not on the street corner here we are in a family, or so I thought.It is all right, a grand piano also needs to be tuned so do people, besides have you seen kids at a dinner table.;-) p.s. An afterthought, unruelly kids at that!

Now hold on guys. This may be the way we behave out in the street but were not on the street corner here we are in a family, or so I thought.You're right brother. Now let's get back to our topic.The Evangelist

Here's another thing. I'll keep it a little basic so people can actually understand what I'm saying. Why in the world would the Apostle go from Chapters 5 & 6 (dealing with the believer)to chapter 7 (dealing with the unbeliever) then back to chapter 8 (dealing once more with the believer)? Is it because he forgot what he wanted to say to them so he had to bring it back up? Why in the world? That's a whole lot of nonsense. But the way I see it is, you're missing one of the main points of the New Covenant and also a great blessing by believing that this chapter was dealing with the non-believer. Are there not Christian people who are struggling with sin? Yes, there are. And I don't say this from a harsh spirit, I say it out of concern that the reason for it is that they are believing the same lie that you are. Romans 6, 7, & 8 cannot be separated. It's trying to cross a bridge with no middle. It's tring to build a home with no roof. It has leaks and they're coming from somewhere, but where? Exactly my point. Romans 7 is for the believer. If they throw it out, they'll continue to have the same old problems with sin because they are still under the Law of Moses. I know what it is to stumble and get up stumble and get up. But now I'm knowing freedom in the New Covenant and NOT the Old Law. His Blood Still Sets Men Free!!!The Evangelist

i agree with the evangelists post. that's good stuff. i'd really like to hear moreanthony

Hi theevangelist, in Romans 7:17 it saysand now it is no longer I that work it, but the sin dwelling in me,(YLT)Can the sin dwell in a person and the Holy Spirit also dwell in a person at the same time?

Why in the world would the Apostle go from Chapters 5 & 6 (dealing with the believer)to chapter 7 (dealing with the unbeliever) then back to chapter 8 (dealing once more with the believer)? Is it because he forgot what he wanted to say to them so he had to bring it back up? Why in the world? That's a whole lot of nonsense. This is a while ago but it still deserves an answer perhaps. If you read “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”(Rom. 2:12-16, KJVS) you will see a set of parentheses (brackets) beginning at verse 13 and ending with verse 15. We could ask the question; 'why would Paul go back to the theme of judgement last seen in verse 12 when he get to verse 16?'You will not find these parentheses in the original Greek text? Rom. 2:12 osoi gar anomoœs eœmarton, anomoœs kai apolountai; kai osoi en nomoœ eœmarton, dia nomou kritheœsontai; Rom. 2:13 ou gar oi akroatai tou nomou dikaioi para toœ Theoœ, all oi poieœtai tou nomou dikaioœtheœsontai. They are not present in Tyndale's version either; And as many as haue synned vnder the lawe shalbe iudged by the lawe. 13 For before god they are not ryghteous which heare ye lawe: but the doers of the lawe shalbe iustified. The reason is that ancient languages did not have parentheses. This has quite serious consequences for translation and interpretation from the originals. If you have ever read old writings by Tyndale or Luther you may have noticed how patterns of thinking from older times are quite different to our modern ones. An average sentence in modern English has less that 20 words. Ephesians 1:15-23 has one sentence with 198 words in it! Ancient minds were able to hold a clause with several sub-clauses and even sub-sub-clauses. Modern minds struggle with this. Here is an experiment for you. Read this passage and tell me if it makes sense...“But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”I think you will see that the argument runs pretty consistently through this section scripture. But the passages are Rom. 5:15-21; 8:1-4, I have omitted the whole of chapter 6 and chapter 7. I would like to suggest that the whole of Chaps 6 and 7 can be read as a parenthesis, illustrating the truth found in Rom 5. In fact, the KJV puts the whole of Rom 5:13-17) into a parenthesis too!We have a phrase over here that speaks about someone 'taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut'. If you read Paul's letter to the Galatians you will see he proves his point again and again, raining a series of sledgehammar blows on salvation through personal merit. This was his style. It is quite in keeping with Paul's style to regard Rom 6 and 7 and illustrative of the truths of Rom 5. To restrict Paul's to a strict linear chronology here is to misunderstand the pattern of ancient thought and rhetoric.

I don't usually get involved into theological debates, it's not my "cup of tea". (Having said this, I must say that I do have a large collection of theological works on my shelves - and I do read theology). But two things made me jump off my chair reading this last post.1) Why in the world would the Apostle go from Chapters 5 & 6 (dealing with the believer)to chapter 7 (dealing with the unbeliever) then back to chapter 8 (dealing once more with the believer)?I have read this theory, in a very few places, that Romans 7 deals with the unbeliever. But frankly it doesn't make any sense. Throughout Paul speaks as a believer to believers, (Romans 1: 1, 7). I don't want to enter too much into this, but if you have the opportunity, I would recommend that you read these two excellent sources:a) In L. S. Chafer's Systematic Theology: - Volume II, Chapter XXII, part VI, "The Christian's Sin and its Remedy".- Volume VI, chapter XVI, "Related Doctrines".b) In C. C. Ryrie's "So Great Salvation", chapter 6, "What is Carnality?"2) I would like to suggest that the whole of Chaps 6 and 7 can be read as a parenthesisBrother, we cannot understand the epistle to the Romans, and much less the nature of salvation and the Christian life without these two most important chapters.To suggest that chapters 6 and 7 can be read as a parenthesis is misleading people, and is lowering the foundamental importance of the whole epistle. I would go as far as to say that Romans 6 is the key chapter so as to be able to understand the meaning of salvation.But let me add something quickly: chapter 6 can only be seen and not merely understood. That is we need revelation to see the significance of Romans 6, and that is where mere theology fails.Manfred

But let me add something quickly: chapter 6 can only be seen and not merely understood. That is we need revelation to see the significance of Romans 6, and that is where mere theology fails.OK so what are we saying here? You have revelation but I have mere theology? A parentheses does not imply that it is not important but that the sense can be carried through from either side of the parentheses. As with all the scripture these chapters are vital to our understanding, but the flow of the argument can be captured by flowing from Chap 5 to Chap 8. You will know, of course, that there were no such chapter divisions initially.I am familiar with the opinion that Romans 7 is Paul's current testimony; I just don't believe it, and am quite prepared to tell you why.

OK so what are we saying here? You have revelation but I have mere theology?Ron,I've never implied the above. It wasn't personal, but a general remark that theology is not enough.Manfred

I am familiar with the opinion that Romans 7 is Paul's current testimony; I just don't believe it, and am quite prepared to tell you why.Ron,Of course, each one of us here "believe" what he wants, and I am certainly not going to try to make you change your mind; I know too well that some of the things we "believe" are so inwrought in us that change is unlikely.I have always thought, from my reading and studying of the Scriptures, that Romans 7:12-25 was the experience of a believer. And I have been encouraged by others, as I bought their books over the years, that hold to this interpretation: L. Berkhof, R. Haldane, W. Hendriksen, F. F. Bruce, L. Morris, W. R. Newell, L. S. Chafer, C. C. Ryrie and R. C. H. Lenski; just to mention some of whose writings I have. And there are others, Hendriksen says that Luther and Calvin held this interpretation too.There are other opinions. Among those who believe that this passage speaks of the unbeliever are: the Pelagians, Arminians, Pietists, Augustine (who popularised this interpretation), and P. Mauro.Another opinion is the one of W. H. G. Thomas who said that the passage referred to a Jew.I just cannot see how Paul could suddenly turn from speaking of a believer's experience to that of an unbeliever, especially when we realise that his argument is progressive and heads towards chapter 8.But as I said, everyone's free to believe as he wishes. And I do accept that I could be wrong, but right now, as far as I got in my spiritual pilgrimage; I understand that Paul speaks here of a believer.Manfred

Are you brothers saying the same thing - that Paul is a believer in Romans 7 - but, Manfred is saying Paul was still experiencing difficulties and philologos is saying Paul is defining a difficulty he has now solved?We are not saying the same thing at all, but rather opposites. Ron believes that the man about whom Paul speaks about in Romans 7:12-25 is an unbeliever. I think that Paul speaks of the experience of a believer.Manfred

I have always thought, from my reading and studying of the Scriptures, that Romans 7:12-25 was the experience of a believer. And I have been encouraged by others, as I bought their books over the years, that hold to this interpretation: L. Berkhof, R. Haldane, W. Hendriksen, F. F. Bruce, L. Morris, W. R. Newell, L. S. Chafer, C. C. Ryrie and R. C. H. Lenski; just to mention some of whose writings I have. And there are others, Hendriksen says that Luther and Calvin held this interpretation too.It would just as easy, of course, to provide another list of George Fox, John Wesley, Charles Finney, Oswald Chambers, Campbell Morgan, Paris Reidhead, Duncan Campbell who believed otherwise.