What is justification by works of the law?

The believer lives in the Spirit and is called upon to walk in the Spirit so that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in him through the only fulfiller of the Law, Jesus Christ in you the hope of Glory. "Let us not be desirous of vain-glory (the law fosters such a spirit, but grace humbles), provoking one another, envying one another"--which is the sad effect of vain-glory, provocation and envy.

All law, be it moral or any other Law, is vain-glorious to the law keeper, except the Law of God by Grace through Christs' new commandment and His Cross being the epitome of Love.

Vain-Glory is fostered by the law, ones own justification to please God, ones own works righteousness, that by the keeping of the Law, and his believing in Christ is what has saved him.
This vain-glory also fosters ones own sanctification in himself, that his works will show his faith and that is what saves him and keeps him saved.

Grace says, loud and clear, it is not us, for God has said; 1 Corinthians 1:25-31 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Christ is our glory, Christ has been made our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.

I don't have the wisdom of Christ, the righteousness of Christ the sanctification and redemption of Christ and there is nothing I can do to get it or keep it. It must be God that makes it appropriated unto me by His Grace through the Faith given me, which is not of myself, but that which is the Faith in which I now live this new life in Christ with the faith of Christ. Now I am Free and am not to take upon me the yoke of bondage ever again. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, (law keeping) but after the Spirit.

It is no longer I who have life but Christ who lives in me, and for sure He will never leave me. WE have been elected to Lambship by the Lamb of God and we know His voice and the Holy Spirit has sealed us to this precious position of son's of God. The Seal can never be broken.

In Christ: Phillip

We have a tendency of reading the writings of Scripture and interpreting them by our own circumcstances and experiences, rather then through the circumstances and experiences of the writer himself.

The reason that Paul talked so much about justification by the works of the law and about predestination and election, more than any other New Testament writer, is because his ministry was to the Gentiles.

If we were to interpret Rom 9 not through our own filter but in Paul's context, we'd look at Romans 9:6 and probably conclude that Paul was addressing the conclusion of the Jews that because so few Jews were believing Paul's gospel that either it was a lie or God had lied in all His promises to them in the OT.
Paul then states...

Rom 9:6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

So it appears that Paul is talking election here not to encourage gentiles, but to defend God's election even within Israel to the Jews that contended with him. (Hence the follow up of the examples of Issac/Ishmael and Jacob/Esau).

Without a biased filter and trying to keep things in line with Paul's intent, how do we interpret who Paul's antagonists are and what they are attacking Paul with in these two statements?...

Rom 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

In the context, who would come after Paul with these two attacks, the one who believes in sovereign election or the one who holds to free will?

I think that the context is how God has sovereignly cut off Israel

Rom 11:1 ¶ I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew...

because they do not meet the conditions of their election (for their unbelief) but the Gentiles were granted in because they met the conditions of their election (belief).

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
John 1:12-13, Romans 9:16

The context of Romans 10 and 11 give us great insight into Romans 9. Paul starts off Romans 9 talking about the Jew/Gentile issue

Might want to relook at Romans 9 again and give it a few read overs. John Piper did a 7 year (I think) work on Romans 9:1-23 titled, 'The Justification of God'. He spent a fair amount of time looking at Romans 9 and has come up with a very different interpretation.

It was never about God predestination individuals for Heaven and Hell. Esau was not chosen for reprobation, Jacob was not chosen for automatic salvation. That had to do with who the chosen people would be, who the Messiah would come at through, etc. Esau represented Edom (Gentiles) and Jacob represented Israel (Jews).

That's a difficult one. You're saying that Paul verifies the truth before the Spirit and the Son (Romans 9:1-5) in wishing that he could be cut off from Christ and accursed if what? if his jewish brethren according to the flesh could what? be in the line of the Messiah? They already were. Be saved? Yes! Why did Paul wish he could be accursed from Christ (strongest statement in the bible), testifying he is speaking the truth, and for what? governmental favour? Lineage they already had?
I don't think so. Take another look. With Paul's context.

Many are called, but the chosen are few, because God only chooses to save those who choose to respond to the call.

Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Faith and repentance. Gifts? (2 Tim 2:24-25, Phil 1:29)

As Spurgeon said, as long as Romans 9:16 is in the bible, free-will theology doesn't have a chance. (http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/0442.htm)

[b]But you didn't answer my question. Who was contending with Paul's gospel, the one who believed in God's sovereign election of grace (no procuring merit), or those that held to free-will doctrine?[/b]

A good commentary of Romans would explain the answer.

[b]Romans 3:20[/b] [color=990000]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin[/color] (Galatians 2:16
Man can not glory because his past sins cancel out the works that are done by the law.

[b]Romans 3:27[/b] [color=990000]Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.[/color]
By what law?
A better word for "law" would be "principle" or "economy".
The principle of faith excludes boasting, but works of the law does not exclude boasting.

[b]Romans 3:28[/b] [color=990000]Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.[/color]
Because of what Paul said in Romans 3:19-20 & Galatians 2:21 & 3:21.

[b]Romans 4:30[/b] [color=990000]Seeing it is one God, who shall justify the circumcision [b]by[/b] faith, and uncircumcision [b]through[/b] faith.[/color]
In this verse, the term "by" faith is doing
"through" faith is only believing.

The circumcision are justified [b]by[/b] faith, or obeying/doing the law in the obedience of faith.

The uncircumcision are justified [b]through[/b] faith (working the spirit of the law) by acknowledging Christ's sufficiency to justify without reliance of self effort in works of the letter of the law.

[b]Note:[/b] This “law” which we are not to depend on in self effort for justification is the letter of the law, not the moral & spirit of the law. Because we must obey the moral & spirit of the law. The letter of the law was fulfilled in Christ.

In obedience to the spirit of the law, we must keep in mind the forgiveness of God through Christ for our shortcomings of adherence to it.

[b]Romans 3:31[/b] [color=990000]Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.[/color]
We establish the law through faith by the acknowledgment of our own inability to do away of our passed transgressions of the law, or the maligning of God's character, which total adherence to the law can never make up for.

[b]Romans 4:1[/b] [color=990000]What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, has found?[/color]
This means is his obedience to God's command (law) as in "works".

[b]Romans 4:2[/b] [color=990000]For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something in which to boast; but not before God.[/color]
James 2:21 - James 2:22 shows us that Abraham was justified by works, but the works were of faith, not of the law.

[b]Romans 4:3[/b] [color=990000]Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.[/color]
Works of the law are based on one's own ability to become righteous after one has been sinning or already sinned; works of faith bases the dependence on Christ for righteousness & to justify one after the acknowledgment of sin.

[b]Romans 4:7[/b] [color=990000]Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.[/color]
The law can not cover sin, but Christ does.
If one has faith in Christ for coverage of sin to righteousness, one will not rely one one's self with the works of he law to become righteous, for there is no coverage of sin.

[b]Romans 4:11[/b] [color=990000]And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also[/color]
Abraham received the sign of circumcision, a seal of already being righteous, therefore, the righteousness was not because of adherence to a command (or law of circumcision), but because of faith.

[b]Romans 4:15[/b] [color=990000]Because the law works wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.[/color]
Because there is no coverage of sin with only the works of the law.
Working to the law proves one has no faith; where there is no faith, there is no coverage of sin, therefore, wrath
Where there is faith, there is no works of the law, therefore, no wrath.

[b]Romans 4:16[/b] [color=990000]Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the descendants; not to those only who are of the law, but to those also who are of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,[/color]
The righteousness is of faith that it be according to Gods kindness (grace)...

Let's break it down:
[b]It is of faith, that it might be by grace[/b]
Not debt

[b]To the end the promise might be sure to all the descendants[/b]
Those also of faith as of Abraham

[b]Not to those only who are of the law[/b]
Israel &/or those without faith

[b]But to those also who are of the faith of Abraham[/b]
Those with faith; grafted in from out of Israel.

imnowhere wrote:

Faith and repentance. Gifts? (2 Tim 2:24-25, Phil 1:29)

Faith & repentance are commanded.
Commands are responsibilities.

If Faith & repentance are gifts, then God is directly responsible for the unrepentant & faithlessness of the world, because He refuses to give those gifts; He would be condemning sentient beings (His beloved creation) for that which He fails to do.

[b]Example:[/b]
God to sinner- I commanded you to put your faith in my Son & to repent. Why didn't you?

Sinner to God - Because I couldn't, it was impossible to obey you because you did not give be those gifts...
Therefore, it was not out of rebellion &/or disobedience that I did not, but out of reliance of what you failed to do; I was only sinning because I couldn’t do anything else.

I want to give a public warning to everyone concerning truefaithsav's post. At this time we ought to be wise and identify and discern right from wrong, but so many are going to be swept away in this ungodly deception. It's the age old wickedness being cloaked in a new disguise. What it is called is the "New Perspective of Paul" and it is a complete and total undermining of the gospel of grace as revealed in the Scriptures.

The New Perspective on Paul argues that when Paul was speaking about the law he was only referring to the ceremonial aspect of the Jewish law of Moses. This is utter blasphemy and total ignorance. Those who espouse this view are completely ignorant of what the law is. Truefaithsav wrote that Paul's use of the law only referred to the Torah. What is the Torah but the entire law of God - all the commandments given by Moses demanding the obedience of all who are under it? You cannot cut the law up into separate divisions as they do to maintain a gospel of works. That is what they are trying to do; it is heresy. If we accept this damnable idea then Christ has died for nothing - according to them a person must be morally flawless in order to gain eternal life.

God has told us otherwise in the Scriptures. Even before Moses the Scripture tells us that no one will be just in the sight of God by works. "How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?" (Job 25:4-6) How dare any man say they are just before God by their works - to say that their walk is righteous - that they entirely fulfill the demands of right? This is what the New Perspective is attempting to say.

"And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified." (Psalm 143:2)

No man living - whether Jew or Gentile, or anyone alive to this day - is justified in God sight. Except for the imputed righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ all will be eternally condemned forever. Anyone attempting to establish their own righteousness before God will be condemned.

The New Perspective drags the gospel in the dirt when it says that Paul is merely referring to the abolition of the ceremonial distinction between Jew and Gentile. They say that circumcision and feasts only are gone, but still men must live righteous lives to be just before God! What a trifling of the glorious gospel of grace! No wonder Paul vehemently opposed the Judaizers to their face, for so much more was at stake than just a social issue! We are dealing with an eternal justice!

I publicly defy this deceptive doctrine and warn everyone on here concerning it. Paul was not arguing for anything less than the righteousness of God. The law is one whole - it includes every moral command ever given. To say otherwise is to deny the words of the Lord Jesus who said: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (Matthew 22:37-40) It is to deny the inspired apostle who wrote clearly that according to morality in the sight of God there is "none righteous, no not one" and that whether one is Jew or Gentile, "by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:20) The gospel is all about "the righteousness God without the law" (Romans 3:21) that "justifies freely" (Romans 3:24) ungodly sinners (Romans 4:5) who believe in the blood of Christ on Calvary. If you wish to see what the apostle Paul truly meant when he spoke about "the law", click [url=http://www.timothyministry.com/2007/12/evidence-that-law-includes-moral-law.html]here[/url].

If any man preaches another gospel than that which has been preached, let him be accursed. If anyone is fooled into believing this deceptive undermining of the old evangelical gospel, they do so at the cost of their own souls. I could not be more serious.

"They be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." (Matthew 15:14)

"Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith." (Philippians 3:8-9)

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." (Galatians 6:14)

I don't know your name, but I know the Spirit in you.

Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

John 3:15-21 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Even unto repentance, very few understand repentance, unto salvation. It is not my sins that condemns me, it is my non belief, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, to believe this is the true repentance that God requires for salvation, and He even provides the Faith to repent, by the Faith of the Christ that is in us when we believe.

What was Adams original sin? He believed a lie more than He believed God. In doing this he received the spirit of darkness, Satan as his believer and God instantly was out and Satan was in.

True repentance is now believing what God says is truth and not a lie. In doing this, instantly we receive the spirit of light, now Satan is out and Christ is in. How can we do this believing?

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Again How? "but now is made manifest to His saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"

God makes it known and is manifest to us His saints and we can repent and believe the truth. The liar is out and Christ is in.

In Repentance and believing Jesus Christ is the Son of God and saved and reborn by the Incorruptable Seed of Christ By His Spirit that is in me, a son God by the Son of God:

Phillip

[quotetruefaithsav wrote:
Here is the question, is a person saved by mere belief, or by believing and repenting?Repentance proves their faith (belief) to be real!

Does faith consist in embracing Jesus as Savior only, or does it also include embracing Him as Lord?

Jesus is Lord no matter what, if one repents or not.
However, Jesus may not be savior to the ones who refuse to let him save them.

* If a person believes, but they do not repent of their sins, are they saved?
* Does mere belief save, without repentance?
* Does a person need to repent of their sins, or change their mind about breaking the moral law, in order to be pardoned?
* Why would a Ruler pardon a criminal who still plans on committing crimes?

The letter is made of 613 separate commands from the Torah. This is compared to only 1 command of the Spirit, which is love.

The difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law is that the letter relates to the outward action; the spirit relates to the motive or intention of the heart and from which the act should proceed.

The spirit of the law requires impartial goodwill &/or benevolence, and is all expressed in one word--love. The letter of the law requires strict adherence to every precept, it is all expressed in one word--obey.

When you understand this, you will see why they call it the "Law of Liberty"!

An example, the letter of the law says, "Do not commit murder!" but the spirit of the law says, ‘‘anyone who is angry with his brother without cause shall be liable to Judgment.'' (Matthew 5:21-22)
The spirit requires that certain conditions to be examined in their proper place.

The letter of the law is unyielding and sentences “guilty” all violators of its precepts, without regard to the purpose of the violation. Just as the speed limit is 55 mph and one exceeds the limit, the law says, ''guilty''.

The spirit of the law, on the other hand, sees the purpose of the excess speed for an emergency and says, ''keep speeding until purpose is met".
Furthermore, when speeding for the purpose of an emergency, the spirit of the law is not broken, but fulfilled.

How is repentance different than obeying the letter of the Law?
When one repents, they are not turning from sin and towards the law, but very act of repentance is turning away from sin and toward God, and in faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Act 20:21

truefaithsav wrote:

I was not saved when I merely believed in Jesus.

The way some people talk negatively about repentance, as if it is justification by works of the law, you would think that I was saved when I was sinning because I believed, but I lost my salvation when I repented!

[b]Mat 3:8[/b] [color=990000] Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,[/color]
Repentance is the fruit of faith.

Faith is the first & primary step.
Repentance/conversion stems from faith; it is a fruit from or of faith. Faith without this primary work of repentance is dead.

If one does not repent, he is proving that he really has no faith at all!

In Romans 1:17, Paul says that the gospel contains the 'righteousness of God', which is the 'power of God unto salvation'.

Then, once all the gentiles, religious, and Jews are indicted of their guilt in chptrs 2 and 3, Paul again comes back to the cross, where again Paul points to the righteousness of God as our saving hope.

The gospel is about the righteousness of God. Not man. Paul does encourage us in our sanctification, but not till chptr 12 once the doctrine of the gospel of God's righteousness is complete.

What makes saving faith different from counterfeit faith is that saving faith is in Christ and not in one's self.

Eph 2:10 follows verses 8 and 9. Not the other way around. It's always a part of salvation, but doesn't procure it. It is of grace.

1 Cor 4:7

Ps 115:1 Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth’s sake.

You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say; but you never heard an Arminian prayer - for the saints in prayer appear as one in word, and deed and mind. An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist. He cannot pray about free-will: there is no room for it. Fancy him praying,

[b]"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them." [/b]

That is a prayer for the devil, for nobody else would offer such a prayer as that...

Spurgeon

ceedub wrote:

"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself;

I have improved my grace.

If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved.

Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves.

Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do.

There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was;

they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them;

they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am.

It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them."

That is a prayer for the devil,

for nobody else would offer such a prayer as that...

If tjis is a sarcastic "prayer" and you realy think the opposite of this, then no one goex to hell for disobedience/rebellion, but because of disability.

It is close to being spot on. It is not realy a prayer though, but common sense thinking, why wouldn't anyone think this if they are truly saved?

If tjis is a sarcastic "prayer" and you realy think the opposite of this, then no one goex to hell for disobedience/rebellion, but because of disability.

It was simply some food for thought. The prayer that Charles Spurgeon penned as an inutterable 'prayer for the devil', you say is close to being 'spot on'.

When I used to hate Limited Atonement or even the mention of it, I came across a quote by Spurgeon in which he said it (universal atonement) was one of the worst heresies to ever creep into the church. I said to a friend, 'Either Spurgeon is dead wrong or I don't get it'. Turns out, I didn't get it.

For me, it would at least throw up a flag. Not that any of us should believe something because another did, but when Spurgeon calls a prayer a 'prayer for the devil' and you call it 'spot on' and 'common sense thinking', one of you is way off.

Time will tell. But most don't think of Spurgeon as 'ridiculous', as you stated.

Stay diligent in your study. No one can accuse you of being luke warm.

The Modern Judaizers

The particular form of merit which they induced men to seek was the merit of keeping the law of Moses, particularly the ceremonial law. At first sight, that fact might seem to destroy the usefulness of the Epistle for the present day; for we of today are in no danger of desiring to keep Jewish fasts and feasts. But a little consideration will show that that is not at all the case. The really essential thing about the Judaizers' contention was not found in those particular "works of the law" that they urged upon the Galatians as being one of the grounds of salvation, but in the fact that they urged any works in this sense at all. The really serious error into which they fell was not that they carried the ceremonial law over into the new dispensation whither God did not intend it to be carried, but that they preached a religion of human merit as over against a religion of divine grace.

So the error of the Judaizers is a very modern error indeed, as well as a very ancient error. It is found in the modern Church wherever men seek salvation by "surrender" instead of by faith, or by their own character instead of by the imputed righteousness of Christ, or by "making Christ master in the life" instead of by trusting in His redeeming blood. In particular, it is found wherever men say "the real essentials" of Christianity are love, justice, mercy and other virtues, as contrasted with the great doctrines of God's Word. These are all just different ways of exalting the merit of man over against the Cross of Christ, they are all of them attacks upon the very heart and core of the Christian religion. And against all of them the mighty polemic of this Epistle to the Galatians is turned.

J Gresham Machen

I pray for God to influence the free will of man, so that man completely repents and believes and is thus saved.

Then it wouldn't be free would it? (Edwards on the Freedom of the Will)

I have heard it said, "Every Calvinist is an open theist when he prays".

Then you might want to narrow down where you're getting your info about Calvinists. I've read hundreds and haven't come across an open-theist one yet (not that there aren't.).

That is because in prayer, you believe that God can determine the future, or that the future is open to God and therefore God is able to determine it. if everything was eternally foreknown God couldn't determine anything at all because everything would already be eternally certain.

Isaiah 46:9-11 says that the reason God knows the future is because God will do what He purposes. That's how He knows. That's why He says none are like Him. He's the only one who knows the future because He will make it what He wants it to be.

Open Theism is heretical. It makes God the narrator instead of the author.

if everything was eternally foreknown God couldn't determine anything at all because everything would already be eternally certain. But if the future has genuine possibilities which God can choose between then God can determine certain events to occur. But if God knew from all of eternity that you would die August 20th, 2009, than not even God can help you or else His foreknowledge would be wrong!

?

Moses prayed when God wanted to destroy Israel and his prayer changed the mind of God.

So, there's no way here that God is showing Moses as a type of Christ, an intercessor for God's people. But rather God was about to make a big mistake, wipe out Israel, and then regret it afterwards, but thanks to Moses, he was able to calm God down and give him better wisdom. Is that what you're saying or am I misreading you?

It seems that Moses and Hezekiah were open theists when they prayed.

Might want to ease up on some of these assumptions. We should all remember James warnings about teaching.

Let's not turn this into a Calvinist controversy thread!

Thanks for trying to avoid that.

How is faith contrary to surrendering to God?

What the author is saying is that believing that your surrendering day to day is what is saving you as opposed to the death of Christ, would be a grave error.

What did the atonement of Christ accomplish in your opinion? You said you believe in it. How so? What did Christ's death do, save you or only make you saveable based on your actions?

Is repentance of sins what saves us?

Is it my own personal sin that sends me to hell?

Is it baptism that saves me?

What does it benefit a person who repents of his sins?

Answer: No and nothing.

It is God who saves me, by His precious Grace, which is Christ and Christ alone, by Faith and that not my faith, but the faith of the Son of God.

What does it say we have to do to be saved?

Believe, Believe, Believe, and Believe again Believe, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the praise is to God, He cleanses me from all sin and unrighteousness. His Job man, not my Job. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, Christ death on the cross pays for all sin, confessed or un- cconfessed, but confession shows we love the Christ that dies for us and wants to be like Him, being conformed to His image, which only He can accomplish in us, by His Spirit we are healed, by His Spirit we are cleansed, By His Spirit we are, from God made in the cleansing by Christ, wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption, no repentance for wisdom, no repentance for righteousness, no repentance for sanctification, no repentance for redemption, Just God making Christ in us all these things are salvation. Repenting does not get you forgiveness, only confession of any mans sin gets forgiveness and faithfully and justly cleansed from all unrighteousness.

The only true repentance I see, is to believe what God says in Truth, and light, not a lie and darkness; This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. Revealed by the Father to even Peter, for Jesus knew it was not Peter who has this wisdom, for He said, "My Father in heaven has revealed this to you Peter, little pebble and upon the Rock of this revelation that I, Jesus am the Son of God, this is the Rock I will build my Church upon. How is every man presented perfect to God and fulfill all of scripture?

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Again and Again "God would make known" and we strive in this revelation and Rock of the Church, "according to His working, which is might to save.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
Is repentance of sins what saves us?

What does it benefit a person who repents of his sins?

Answer: No and nothing.

Believe, Believe, Believe, and Believe again Believe, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the praise is to God, He cleanses me from all sin and unrighteousness.

Logic wrote:

"Wrong!!!
It proves that one actually believes."

What must come first? Believing unto repentance or repentance unto believing.

What gives us forgiveness, Confession or repentance?

Repentance is a change in a belief system. Believing must come first, and if you want to make confession and repentance the same thing, I will agree with you.

Believing must come first, confession then repentance because our belief system has been changed, Satan out Christ in. Christ is now the system by which I am changed from Glory to Glory.

2 Corinthians 3:12-18 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even (exactly)as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Repentance does not cut it, it must be, The Spirit of the Lord, for Israel repented, repented and repented, but still returned to Vail.

Repentance is the self works salvation that man puts before the lost and makes them responsible for their own salvation.

It must be the other way, Believe and you will be saved, not repent, Repentance after believing then becomes the mechanism by which we agree with God and the Spirit of Christ that is in us, that we believe Him, love Him and want to be like Him, now this is repentance, by the Holy Spirit teaching, who this Christ in us is and we are changed from Glory to Glory.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:

Repentance is the self works salvation that man puts before the lost and makes them responsible for their own salvation.

If faith without works is dead, then works without faith is dead.
Dead works are what the lost do.

It must be the other way, Believe and you will be saved, not repent, Repentance after believing then becomes the mechanism by which we agree with God and the Spirit of Christ that is in us, that we believe Him, love Him and want to be like Him, now this is repentance, by the Holy Spirit teaching, who this Christ in us is and we are changed from Glory to Glory.

Repentance is the first and primary work of faith which make our faith alive.

What must come first? Believing unto repentance or repentance unto believing.

I believe that repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin (but they are not synonomous terms). I don't believe that you can truly repent unless you believe and you cannot truly believe unless you repent.

I wouldn't say that this is adding anything to the requirement of faith for salvation; it isn't faith plus repentance that saves, rather it is repentant faith.

In Christ,

Ron

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

So that nothing is more miserable than we, if we be without Christ, and without his faith, whereby it appeareth how little, yea, that nothing is left for the free will of men's merits. As touching every part, this lightening is referred unto the knowledge of God, because all our quickness of sight is mere vanity and thick darkness, until he appear unto us by his truth. That reacheth farther which followeth afterward: To be turned from darkness to light; for that is when we are renewed in the spirit of our mind.

Now meet unto repentance;

Acts 26:20-21 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

"that they should repent and turn to God"

This "repent" is after the Faith of Christ that turns us to God.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3340. metanoeo
Search for G3340 in KJVSL
metanoew metanoeo met-an-o-eh'-o
from 3326 and 3539; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction):--repent.

Repentance then becomes a blessing and not a Law.

In Christ: Phillip

Logic I liked your explanation here.

The difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law is that the letter relates to the outward action; the spirit relates to the motive or intention of the heart and from which the act should proceed.

May I ask one question. By living by the spirit of the law, does it cause us to obey the letter of the law?

Ezekiel 36:26-27

In other words don't we now have the power(the spirit) to obey the letter, at the same time not necessarily pursuing obedience to the letter of the law, but rather pursuing obedience to the spirit of the law that would cause us to obey the letter of the law. The spirit of the law being:

Matthew 22:36-40

Russ

rnieman said:
Hey Logic, I liked what you posted below:

What do you think of the following:
By living by the spirit of the law, does it cause us to obey the letter of the law?

Ezekiel 36:26-27

In other words don't we now have the power(the spirit) to obey the letter, at the same time not necessarily pursuing obedience to the letter of the law, but rather pursuing obedience to the spirit of the law that would cause us to obey the letter of the law. The spirit of the law being:
Matthew 22:36-40

which sums up the 10(letter of the law)

[b]Romans 9:30[/b] [color=990000]What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
[b]:31[/b] But Israel, who followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
[b]:32[/b] Why? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone;[/color]
Seeking the "law of righteousness" by faith is walking after the spirit (Romans 8:4) & fullfilling it by the spirit.

This is what the Scriptures call "The Rest" (Jesus is our rest)
[b]Hebrews 3:18[/b] [color=990000]And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
[b]:19[/b] So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
[b]Hebrews 4:1[/b] Let us therefore fear, lest, although a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[b]:2[/b] For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them[/color] (the "gospel" which was preached to them was the "promise of rest" which is also preached to us)
[color=990000]but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.[/color]

I don't have the wisdom of Christ, the righteousness of Christ the sanctification and redemption of Christ and there is nothing I can do to get it or keep it. It must be God that makes it appropriated unto me by His Grace through the Faith given me, which is not of myself, but that which is the Faith in which I now live this new life in Christ with the faith of Christ. Now I am Free and am not to take upon me the yoke of bondage ever again. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, (law keeping) but after the Spirit.

It is no longer I who have life but Christ who lives in me, and for sure He will never leave me. WE have been elected to Lambship by the Lamb of God and we know His voice and the Holy Spirit has sealed us to this precious position of son's of God. The Seal can never be broken.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip,

I would like to give an answer to the things you said here.

First you said:

I don't have the wisdom of Christ, the righteousness of Christ the sanctification and redemption of Christ and there is nothing I can do to get it or keep it.

Brother, you do have the wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption of Christ. You have it at your fingertips, recorded in the New Testament you read.

Jesus spoke words of wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption, or the good news of the Kingdom of God. These words were to be put in our hearts, and obeyed. By doing so we become like him, and walk as he walked, and then and ONLY then are we as he is in this world.

Brother you say:

Now I am Free and am not to take upon me the yoke of bondage ever again. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, (law keeping) but after the Spirit.

But brother, Jesus spoke of another [b]yoke[/b] you are to take upon you.

Mat 12:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Mat 12:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

There is another law, that you are to learn to keep, and it is this law, that puts you IN Christ.

Gal 6:Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil [b]the law of Christ.[/b]

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: [b]THE WORDS that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are life.[/b]

To abide in his "spirit", and have his "spirit" abide in you, is to learn his teachings, commandments, words and sayings, and OBEY them. Only then are you IN Christ, because Christ is IN you, because you have put his WORDS/SPIRIT in you. This is the spirit that gives you the power to over come all sin.

This is what it truly means to believe, and to have faith. This is the true spirit which leads to true eternal life. Not just believing in general or having faith and confidence in general, but knowing the WORDS, and acting on them. Then and only then are you IN Christ.

You said:

It is no longer I who have life but Christ who lives in me, and for sure He will never leave me. WE have been elected to Lambship by the Lamb of God and we know His voice and the Holy Spirit has sealed us to this precious position of son's of God. The Seal can never be broken.

2 Tim 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, [b]having this seal,[/b] The Lord knoweth them that are his. [b]And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.[/b]

To depart from iniquity, lawlessness, is to learn to cease from sin, and to learn to walk in his words, sayings, teachings and commandments, as he also walked, which is to WALK IN AND BY HIS SPIRIT, or to as is said "Be IN Christ".

You said:

Vain-Glory is fostered by the law, ones own justification to please God, ones own works righteousness, that by the keeping of the Law, and his believing in Christ is what has saved him.
This vain-glory also fosters ones own sanctification in himself, that his works will show his faith and that is what saves him and keeps him saved.

Actually faith, which is simple faith in Christ, believing that he existed, that he is the son of God, and that God raised him from the dead is what innitially saves a man. THEN he learns to keep the commandments of Christ, also called "THE LAW" of Christ, and he shows his faith in Christ by his WORKS, meaning by doing as Christ said to do.

Or is this also not a part of the scripture?

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that [b]they may see your good works[/b], and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? [b]do that which is good,[/b] and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus [b]unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.[/b]

1 Timothy 2:10 But (which becometh women [b]professing godliness) with good works.[/b]

1 Timothy 5:10 Well reported of [b]for good works;[/b] if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed [b]every good work.[/b]

1 Timothy 5:25 Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

1 Timothy 6:18 That they do good, [b]that they be rich in good works,[/b] ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

And the whole purpose of scripture.

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable, for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, [b]throughly furnished unto all good works.[/b]

Titus 1:16 [b]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.[/b]

Titus 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of [b]good works:[/b] in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, [b]zealous of good works.[/b]

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God [b]might be careful to maintain good works.[/b] These things are good and profitable unto men.

Titus 3:14 And let our's also learn to maintain [b]good works[/b] for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love [b]and to good works:[/b]

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation (behavior) his works with meekness of wisdom.

1 Peter 2:12 Having your conversation (behavior) honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may [b]by your good works[/b], which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Brother, how can you deny such scriptures, while only quoting those that seem only in part, but not in context to truly agree with your theology?

You said to another brother in a different posting: "I don't know your name, but I know what spirit you are of." I know you meant that in a bad sense.

You and I are brothers, and though we may quote from the same basic Bible, we believe in and worship and follow a different Jesus Christ. We walk by a different spirit, and we believe in a different gospel. We use the same words, but what those words mean to you are quite different than what they mean to me.

El Harris

Dear brother Harris,

Quote:

"""You said to another brother in a different posting: "I don't know your name, but I know what spirit you are of." I know you meant that in a bad sense."""

This is not correct, I knew what spirit he was from by what he was saying about Christ, that is the Spirit that I knew and had oneness with, Christ in him and Christ in me.

You see I believe the Word of God and what God says about His Son, knowing it is not what I do that makes me a son of God. It matters not what I do, but what God has done with His Son in me.
It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. This is the life I now live, by the Faith Son of God. Either this is true or God by the Holy Spirit and the pen of Paul spoke and wrote a mouth full of mush and a pen full of liars ink.

I don't have any agenda but to see that all I speak or write is to as Paul spoke in all His writings, Quote: Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Fulfilling the Word of God by the Christ that is in us.

And knowing it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me.

Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

If we ignore Paul's writings, we miss the mark, for in all God gave Paul to write to the gentiles, which no other person in the Bible knew that the revelation of Christ in a person, the mystery, revealed to Paul and Paul alone. We had snippids of this truth in the Gospels John 12:24, no fruit unless Jesus died, "corn of wheat fall into the ground it abides alone" and other writers of the New Testament, but no one got it at Pentecost, they took all the outer feelings and cloven tongues of fire and speaking to all different peoples, them all understanding in their own languages and the rushing wind and said, now we can save the world by the Holy Spirit and Power we have in us. That is why Paul was chosen 15 years after to show what the dispensation of Grace was all about, and the unrevealed mystery of God putting His Son in believers and giving them new birth and new life in the Son. Satan out and Christ in.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Harris wrote,

Quote:

"""Brother, you do have the wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption of Christ. You have it at your fingertips, recorded in the New Testament you read."""

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Who has made of Him, made us in Christ and made of whom unto us; Wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption?

Not me, but by the living Christ that is in me through the teaching of The Holy Spirit of the Word of Truth. Who is the Word?

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

In Christ: Phillip