Go and sin no more

John 8:11
"She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

John 5:14
"Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

I guess the strongest argument is that impossible not to sin. But why would Jesus say, "Sin no more" in John 5:14 and 8:11. Is Jesus being facetious because He knew it was impossible to do? Does he mean, don't do a particular sin any more?

But there is no getting away from the fact, God expects us to stop sinning. God expects prefeection in our lives.

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
Matthew 5:48

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you."
Philippians 3:15

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."
2Corinthians 7:1

Sinlessness and perfection I rememebr talking to a Pastor about these things and he said it's impossible that we will never attain this in this life.

My belief is that it is possible to live a life where we "sin no more" although I cannot say it's a fact in my life, what do you believe and why?

1 Thessalonians 5:23  ¶And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24  Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Would blameless and sinless be synonyms?

If he would preserve the Thesalonians blameless unto the coming of our Lord . . . why would he not do the same for us?

If perfect means fully mature, then surely none of us will be that until we awake in His likeness Psalms 17:15 on the other side.

If blameless means not guilty of willfully, knowingly disobeying His will, and repenting when we discover that we have unknowingly disobeyed . . . that state of life is not only possible, it SHOULD BE the norm.

1 Corinthians 15:57  But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5  Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Galatians 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 5:16  This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

prayforbob, Holy Ghost baptizm feels like a body your perfect size coming in, touch me and get shocked, lest, and then killed all day long persectution, and thats the Lord making me weak by manifold temptations like electricity causing itching on scalp, flowing on what I use bathroom out of, spiking, caressing, gum desease, terrified in visions, seeing Jesus in visions and him lauhging, at me, saying things like, run from me, backslide, perish for the bretherns sake http://www.prophetic.beep.com

The Good News is that God has already provided the solution for this in Christ. Christ crucified you when He died and you were buried with Him. When you were born again, the old you died and you received Christ's Life. If you are a Christian then you become one with Him. He made you a NEW CREATION. You were made 100% righteous and perfect. You are one with Holy Spirit or the Spirit of Christ. You are no longer a sinner; you now have a new pure heart and God's very Divine Nature.

I have put up this quote as to what I was taught as a Babe in Christ and this is what I belived but know I find myself challenging this teaching. Why because there seems to be a part of me that like a magnet which always aligns to the North, I find in me something that would always cause me to sin. I might try and resist but inside theres something that pulls me in another direction.

I found out that I was alive to Christ on my conversion, but as I went on I find that the old man did not die as I have been taught. It is him warring within it is him that is opposed to the things of God while he lives I can only dream of being able to fulfill Christs command of [b]"Go and sin no more"[/b]

Does the Spirit of Christ sin? Absolutely not.

Does the Holy Spirit sin? Absolutely not.

Where is the Spirit of Christ?

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

How are we perfect? "In Christ", by the Christ birthed of the Father in us.

We are perfectly saved in the Spirit of Christ.

We are being saved in our soul, where the Holy Spirit works bringing our minds to the Mind of
Christ, "predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ".

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Romans 8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

We are saved and without sin in spirit, by the Spirit of Christ in us.

We are being or doth save Present tense, us in our soul.

We will be saved in body on resurrection morning, until then it is quickened to contain the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God our Father.

2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

Jesus will never laugh and any of His brethren.

It is old sloo-foot, the dragon as an angle of light who is laughing at us who is saying there is Christ, Here is Christ, I am Christ, to take us away from the Christ that is in us and defeat the Fathers rebirthing of Christ in His born again son'.

Even Paul knew this very well and states it many times in his letters to the Gentiles... "Who will set me free from this body of death"?

In Christ: Phillip

I think what Jesus means is to leave your life of sin. Rigtheousness is now the standard and sin the regretful exception.

paulmcg1 wrote:
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Paul this was on another post the brother who posted it gives a very good answer to your question.

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Don't take that verse out of context.

1. This passage must always be looked at in context. The entire book of John must be consulted, especially verses 1:7-10, 2:1. Those who isolate this passage usually twist its meaning to be contrary to the rest of the epistle which is about moral perfection. The meaning of a verse is always lost or misunderstood when scripture isolation is practiced. The immediately surrounding context gives us much clarity into this verse.

2. The phrase, "have no sin" in verse 8 could mean two things. It could mean "have no sin" in your present conduct, or it could mean "have no sin" on your record. Verse 10 is very clear that John is talking about those who deny having any disobedience on their record by saying "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." None can deny that they have sinned or disobeyed in the past, but Christians can say that they presently obey God.

3. Verse 7 and 9 promise, not merely the pardon of sin, but also cleansing from sin. There is a proper distinction made between forgiveness and cleansing, “to forgive us our sins, AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” These passages promise not only forgiveness of sin but also freedom from sin. They promise freedom, not merely from some sins, but freedom from "all" sins, "to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness".

4. The man spoken of in verse 8 is the man who had not yet experienced verse 9. That is, the deceived man who denies having any sin is the one who has not yet confessed their sins, been forgiven of their sins, and has had their sins cleansed out of their life. Verse 8 is directed to, or specifically talking about, the man who has not yet been forgiven and cleansed as described in verse 9. Verse 9 is written as the solution to the sin described in verse 8.

5. If 1:8 means that nobody can state that Jesus Christ has cleansed them from all sin, then saying that you have experienced 1:9 makes you a liar. This interpretation of 1:8 would mean that believing 1:9 would make you “deceived”.

6. If "have no sin" means that no Christian can state as Paul did that we are presently "free from sin" (Romans 6:22), then John immediately contradicts his purpose as stated in 2:1, "these things write I unto you, that ye sin not." This interpretation would mean that John was writing this epistle so that we would “deceive ourselves” and so that “the truth” would not be “in us”. Why would John write them so that they “sin not” if when they believe that they “sin not” they are simply “deceived” without “the truth”?

7. If 1:8 means that you are a liar if you claim to presently keep God's commandments, then 2:3-4 is a total contradiction. These passages state that "we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." Such an interpretation would amount to this: if you claim to keep God's commandments, you are a liar and the truth is not in you (1:8), but if you claim to know God but do not keep His commandments, you are a liar and the truth is not in you (2:4). So the truth would not be in the one who claims to keep God's commandments, and the truth would not be in the one who says they know God yet breaks His commandments. Then the only logical conclusion would be that nobody knows God, if the Bible teaches that everyone presently breaks God’s commandments and you cannot know God if you presently break His commandments.

8. If 1:8 means that we all always have sin in our lives, then we do not "abideth in him" and have "not seen him, neither known him" according to 3:6, we are all "of the devil" according to 3:8, and we have not been born of God according to 3:9.

9. If 1:8 means that you are a liar if you state that you no longer break God's commandments, then the Apostle John is a liar because he says "we keep his commandments and do those things that are pleasing in his sight" in 3:22. According to the popular interpretation of 1:8, this would make the Apostle “deceived”, it would mean that the Apostle was without “the truth” because he claimed to “keep his commandments”.

10. The difference between the children of God and the children of the devil, is that the children of God do what is righteous, but the children of the devil commit sin, according to 3:8-10. This could not be a proper or accurate distinction if 1:8 means that everyone converted or not has present disobedience in their life.

11. The meaning of this passage is clear: If a man claims that they have never sinned, that they have no sin on their record, they are deceived. But if they confess that they have sinned, their sin can be both forgiven and cleansed out of their lives, so that they will walk in holiness and righteousness.

narrowpath wrote:
I think what Jesus means is to leave your life of sin. Rigtheousness is now the standard and sin the regretful exception.

If Jesus meant we should leave our life of sin would that mean we should sin no more?

Quote by A.J. Gordon from "Born Crucified"

"Divine truth as revealed in scripture seems often to lie between two extremes…. Almost all of the gravest errors have arisen from adopting some extreme statement of Scripture to the rejection of the other extreme….. If we regard the doctrine of sinless perfection as a heresy, we regard contentment with sinful imperfection as a greater heresy."

A.J. Gordon also said, “

‘If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves,’ the unconscious justification for a low standard of Christian living. It were almost better for one to overstate the possibilities of sanctification in his eager grasp after holiness, than to understate them in his complacent satisfaction with a traditional unholiness. Certainly it is not an edifying spectacle to see a Christian worldling throwing stones at a Christian perfectionist.”

I read all of 1 John this morning.

As one preliminary thought, John Wesley is known for addressing this issue. To sum it up briefly, Christian perfectionism vs. sinless perfection. John Wesley believed in perfectionism as, the best I know how to describe it, as a journey to perfection, and the complete surrender of oneself in every aspect to God, giving no inch to the devil; he would never accept the idea of sinless perfection though, as "...sinless perfection is a phrase I never use, lest I should seem to contradict myself." Apparently the ideas do not necessarily relate.

What I'll do here is I'll lay down some of my thoughts from reading 1 John. Murrcolr, I'm most interested in your thoughts.

On 1:8 through 2:1, I considered the idea that it was someone who had only previously sinned, but does not now sin. John uses "we" quite frequently, so I would guess he would include himself in this passage, as if to say, for example, "Even if I claim to have no sin, then I prove that the truth is not in me," unless the use of "we" is just his peculiar writing style, and he does mean sinless perfection.

I move on to 2:1, an he says he does write these things so that we don't sin. Makes sense. Then he says, "But if anyone does sin," and in context I assume that he means his audience, whom I assume were Christians and believers, and in case any of these believers do sin (still sounds like it should be the exception), they have the advocate to the Father, Jesus Christ. Given context so far, from my interpretation, "Get rid of all sin. Have none of it. I write these so that you don't. Yet unless someone does, which I hope would be the exception, you have your advocate of forgiveness, Jesus Christ."

Then I get to Chapter 3:6 - Everyone who remains in Him does not sin; everyone who sins has not seen Him or known Him. Do we mean this as a habit, or do we say that even a single sin proves that you do not know God? Once again, how do I read this correctly? Going to the Greek, the first instance of the word sin, "hamartei," sounds exactly how it does in English; doesn't sin. The second, in the "everyone who sins," the word is "hamartAnwn." It's a present active device, though also a participle, where something acts as an adjective and as a verb. Young's Literal Translation probably gets closest to the Greek out of any translation, and it puts it this way: "every one who is remaining in him doth not sin; every one who is sinning, hath not seen him, nor known him." As a matter of fact, looking through the whole of 1 John 3:1-12, looking at my Greek text in front of me, much of what's in here is participle in nature, expressing an ongoing thing, and not one-time incidences. I'd look at the YLT for 1 John 3 to get an idea. From what I can tell (though I admit my Greek experience is quite young), it's a right translation. I notice too in v. 5 where it says "take away sins," the footnote in my Bible, and the YLT, and the Greek say "our sins," meaning those specific to us.

Then of course I get to John 5 and the rock gets heavy again. By verse 16 through 17, do I assume that any sin whatsoever robs a believer of life? What then is the sin that brings death, and the sin that doesn't? What is the need for God to give life to that person if the sin isn't unto death? What does that life entail? Life to not repeat the transgression, or to bring the brother back into grace after falling? But then why isn't it called the sin unto death? Or should we assume that any sin by default takes you from grace, and the sin that brings death just seals it, like blasphemy of the Spirit?

Perhaps the main question in my mind, if a person does not reach sinless perfection, then does this mean he'll be sentenced to hellfire?

If you want some sense of the questions going through my mind, there they are. I hate sin, I want it weeded out, and if the Bible says that I should be 100% sinless perfect, then I will do it, as it's what He commands. However, I do not want to put a weight on the back of a person that God never commanded us to carry. If the most I am ever to tell someone is to contend for holiness in every way, chance and form possible, to get as close as possible though they never reach it, then I will gladly tell them, though I would not add to the words of God.

Anastasis wrote:
I read all of 1 John this morning.

As one preliminary thought, John Wesley is known for addressing this issue. To sum it up briefly, Christian perfectionism vs. sinless perfection. John Wesley believed in perfectionism as, the best I know how to describe it, as a journey to perfection, and the complete surrender of oneself in every aspect to God, giving no inch to the devil; he would never accept the idea of sinless perfection though, as "...sinless perfection is a phrase I never use, lest I should seem to contradict myself." Apparently the ideas do not necessarily relate.

My view on Sinless perfection if Adam was perfect, sinless and he still fell. So we can never get to a place where we will never sin. Now do I believe we can get to a place where can resist the temptation to sin again yes I do.

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Jesus was at all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Heb 4:15

We should be like Jesus although tempted in all points we should not sin.

What we have in the world today is Carnal Christianity; with this type of Christianity it's impossible for us to resist the devil in all points.

What I mean is that our spirits are renewed but our hearts are not pure, so we have a disability in us we find that in our inner man we love the laws of God Roms 7:22 but in our members there is another force at work Paul calls it a another law Roms 7:23.

So we need a double cure one for the spirit the other for our members. When I speak about "our members" I need to clarify that our flesh and bone the body will not be changed until we meet Jesus in the air. So when we think "our members" I mean our souls which is our mind, will and emotions we could call our personality or character. This is the area where the friuts of your life will be evident for others to see.

In the Soul we have lusts Rev 18:14 we can also have unbelief and hopelessness Pslams 43:5 bitterness is also in the souls Job 21:25 I could go on but hope you get the point.

Know lets look for the double cure Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you. I will remove your stubborn hearts and give you obedient hearts. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

It says here A New Heart [b]and[/] a New Spirit it goes on to say in Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. This is what Paul speaks about in Rom 7:22 loving God laws in the inner man the Spirit. So we need God to take away the heart of stone and give us a heart of flesh.

God will do this so he can be sanctified in us Ezekiel 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

So this double cure is the work of sanctification of God in us why because he wants us to be Holy like he is Holy so we don't bring any reproach on his name.

When we read this we need to think of 2 types of sin, inbred sin and the sin we have committed.

1 John 1:5-10 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

God is Light

6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

What is the truth God is Light there is no darkness in him, if we walk in darkness and say we fellowship with him then we lie.

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If we walk with him in the light (remember there can be no darkness when we walk our we lie) we have fellowship with each other and the Blood cleanses us from [b]all[/] sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

This sin spoke of here is Inbred sin

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is the sin we have committed in our life.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

This is sin we have done in our life. Why would John say the same thin twice unless he was talking about two different types of sin. Sin and Sins.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

John writes this so we sin not this implies that we don't have to sin, but he also says if you do sin we have an advocate so. We can fall in temptation like Adam did but we can also walk like Jesus and be tested in ever point and did not sin but there is always the risk of falling.

I think I better see what you're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong. You're talking about the opposite of the carnal Christianity where we treat sin as a passive thing, almost--if not exactly like--antinomianism where we make no strive for holiness. However, since Christ has given us a new heart and mind, He has put it in us to overcome temptation, and has given us the ability to be successful, so we should never treat our condition like there's nothing that can be done about it; otherwise, why give us the clean heart? Why take out the heart of stone and put in its place one that desired obedience? Therefore, what excuse do we have not to strive for holiness? The point is to learn not to sin; though if you do, you have an advocate. It's not sinless perfection, but it's to have a heart, mind and spirit that abhors sin [u]and acts accordingly[/u]--and should it fall, has the grace of 1 John 2:1.

murrcolr wrote:

I have put up this quote as to what I was taught as a Babe in Christ and this is what I belived but know I find myself challenging this teaching. Why because there seems to be a part of me that like a magnet which always aligns to the North, I find in me something that would always [b]cause me to sin[/b]. I might try and resist but inside theres something that pulls me in another direction.

I found out that I was alive to Christ on my conversion, but as I went on I find that the old man did not die as I have been taught. It is him warring within it is him that is opposed to the things of God while he lives I can only dream of being able to fulfill Christs command of [b]"Go and sin no more"[/b]

The flesh will give pleasure because of the senses. The flesh is amoral; it takes pleasure in what ever & however, good or bad, morally or immorally for it has no mind to discern.
This is unchangeable, it will remain this way even after we are saved; the flesh needs to be done away with. That will happen in the resurrection.

None the less, [b]the flesh is not the "[u]cause[/u]" of your sin[/b]! The cause is that you still have sympathy for the unlawful affections of your flesh.
The answer is to PRAY for deliverance and present your body a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service (Rom 12:1 and renewing your mind (Rom 12:2).

Hope this helps.

murrcolr wrote:

paulmcg1 wrote:
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Paul this was on another post the brother who posted it gives a very good answer to your question.

I'm glad to see some people actually read what I have to say> :-P

I had to look it up

Antinomianism:- is the idea that members of a particular religious group are under no obligation to obey the laws of ethics or morality, and that "Salvation" is by predestination only.

I am talking about Entering His Rest Hebrews 4:1 Hebrews 4:11 "He brought us out, that He might bring us in"--two parts of God's work of redemption--"He brought us out from Egypt, that He might bring us into Canaan." And that is applicable to every believer. At your conversion, God brought you out of Egypt, and the same almighty God is longing to bring you into the Canaan land.

[url=http://www.fullbooks.com/The-Master-s-Indwelling1.html]The Masters Indwelling By Andrew Murray[/url]

1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently.

Peter lets us know here that thse christians souls had been purified but he also ties that in with having a pure heart.

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Hebrews 4:9-10 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

There is a rest for Gods people.

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

He that enters the rest hath ceased from his own works that to me means a complete surrender to God's will.

Here is brief testimony of mine.

It starts with me walking out of the only church I had attended since I have known God. Now because of various reason and much praying which I won't go into here I decided to leave.

I had just crossed the street after leaving the church for the last time. I prayed Father, I know what you spoke to me about.........(My Calling), I believe what you have said, I don't know how you'll do it but I believe you'll do it. Mid step the Holy Spirit spoke to me "you'll be like Job". This as you can imagine was not what I wanted to hear.

Five years later in back slidden state while I was working in West Africa there I caught a viral infection this infection causes blisters to appear on the skin.

I needed to hear from God and decided to Fast and Pray. After my time of fasting and praying ended it was around the same time I was going back to work, I had this question in my head "what makes a great man of God great". So I went searching the internet to find out about the men of god to get a insight into their lives, I came across Duncan Campbell’s testimony on sermon index and (that's how I became a member on here) downloaded it onto my IPod to listen to it on the plane.

After having my meal the light was dimmed I got out my IPod and started to listen to Duncan's Testimony when I got to the point where Duncan says "Go for God whatever it takes" these words cut through me with tears streaming down my face I went to the toilet got on my knees (As best I could in a small toilet) and prayed. The sobs and tears just kept on coming I asked God to help me.

For my whole month while in Africa every time I had on my own with God he turned up all I seemed to able to do was weep. During this time God had been talking to me about Holiness and the need to be Holy, he should me that there was a system still in me that needs to be removed. This system is evil and it’s so wrapped up in your personality that you believe it's you, the reason you are who you are is because of this system, it controls, it manipulates, it lies, and it affects every part of you, your mind, your will and emotions.

When I got back to Scotland, I got a book from a woman who had not put it to print yet it was called Revival the Call of Holiness this was God confirming to me what had been speaking to me about in Africa.

From there I have started studying and reading up on the subject. I AM NOT sanctified (Made Holy) yet no but my faith level are increasing as I study the subject of Holiness.

John is making it clear that believers are sinners that need to confess thier sins when any have been committed. When Jesus told people to go and sin no more , He was revealing what God's will was for our lives but not revealing that it was possible to fulfill perfectly. I believe He knew that there is no way that people could live a totally sin free life especially when He had not even died and rose again yet when he told these people that. Also , these people did not even have all of the new testament scriptures and tools that we have today , and christians today still cannot rid their lives of sin completely. I notice two things about christians that tell other christians that they can be totally sinless. The first thing is these christians are not even sin free themselves in thier own lives , and the second thing is that they conveniently never quote any of the many scripture references by Paul and John that clearly reveal that we all still have an old sin nature that we can still give into in the flesh , yet still be considered saved and have the Spirit at the same time. " It is no longer I that do it , but sin that dwelleth in me "

Hi! Murrcolr

Your comment here is exceedingly unusual; by that I mean: it's not very often that a Christian has the boldness of spirit to ask about such a thing.
The quick answer to your question is YES.
Not only does the Scripture clearly state it as possible; it absolutely commends it as our goal.

I think the largest difficulty is that the word "sinlessness" or "perfection" is poorly translated/understood. These words speak about maturity ... spiritual maturity ... being restored in soul, spirit and body to the original intent and purpose of God.

The TLJ Site is primarily aimed at this exact question you posed here. Unfortunately, it is undergoing major Upgrades today and is OffLine. But tomorrow, (June 25), it will return OnLine and you can read many articles concerning "spiritual maturity". http://www.tolovejesus.com

In the meantime, here are some additional thoughts regarding your question:

In Matthew 19:16 the wealthy young man asks a peculiar question. He wanted to know what good he had to do to gain eternal life. For the Old Testament students of the Bible this was not a common subject of discussion by any means, for the expression is only used in Daniel 12:2 in connection with the resurrection of the dead. The word, 'life', however, is used frequently in the Old Testament.

No doubt, this young man had listened to Jesus many times and he had noticed that the Lord often mentioned 'eternal life'. Jesus did not move this to the period after the resurrection of the dead, but He promised to give it now. He who believes in the Son has eternal life. It does not say that he will receive it afterwards. Eternal life is permanent life and therefore a life of quality. The Mosaic law said: 'This is your life' and when answering the young man the Lord drew his attention to the second part of the law, to the requirements of the old covenant towards fellow men. 'He who does these things shall gain life by what he does'. This 'life' notwithstanding, man would die and at his death enter into Sheol.

The righteous of the old dispensation believed that what God had said to man was good for Him. They did not listen to the devil, the deceiver and tempter, but walked with God. In their life they were blessed and their names were written in the book of life. This young man also belonged to this category of righteous people. He witnessed that he had kept all the precepts of the law. For that reason he questioned what might still be lacking in his life. Jesus rejoiced because of him, looked at him and loved him, for God who loves truth also loves those who live uprightly. The Lord saw his uprightness of heart and pure life. He longed to include the young man in the circle of his disciples: This was not an injured or damaged person who needed deliverance first of all, but a sound and whole man. This young man had withstood the temptation of wealth and had not yielded to sin. In this way he had reached the limits of the Old Covenant. Persevering in this life he would die a righteous man and in Sheol receive a place in Abraham's bosom.

The Lord's answer, however, puts a much higher ideal before this righteous young man. He invites him to press on for this ideal and at the same time indicates the condition to which it is subject. For the faithful of the New Covenant righteousness is not the final goal, but perfection, that is, the gaining of maturity and the development as a child of God in the spiritual world. Now the opportunity is given to grow up as a spiritual man to gain full maturity.

Every Christian has this same question of Jesus placed before them: "Would you be perfect?". The average church-goer would answer that he expects to be a sinner until he dies, always ready to fall in some kind of sin. The evangelical Christian would refuse to answer this question by saying that he would rather be 'broken' and humble, his daily prayer is to be a 'doormat' in the house of the Lord. In their opinion, perfection will only come after death. Even asking this question is irritating to many.

They desire to be known as respectable Christian sinners! For the modern Christian the idea of perfection is absurd and unacceptable. He who asks the question will immediately be accused of perfectionism' and 'sinlessness'.

Jesus meant this: "Would you wish to make more progress than is possible in the Old Covenant? Would you pursue still another goal and obtain other opportunities? Then I will show you the way which leads upwards, into the heavenly places".

There is a Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven that offers unprecedented perspectives. This had never been preached before but Jesus revealed it. To be perfect, (not to become perfect after death), the young man has to surrender his earthly securities. He will have to be strong and steadfast in faith, not in wealth. He will have to enter into the invisible Kingdom of God to lay up treasure there where moth or rust do not damage it, which cannot be stolen from him. There he will have to live by faith only. For that reason the Lord advises him: "Go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and then you will have riches in heaven. And come, follow Me".

To follow Jesus means: to accept His words and adhere to them, to live in accordance with His ways of thinking, to think as He thought, to speak as He spoke and to act as He did. It means: to relinquish everything to gain the heavenly inheritance, that is the forgiveness of guilt; being a child of God; the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and his abilities; sharing in the divine nature; broadcasting the love of God which aims at deliverance, healing and restoration; the victory over the powers of darkness. Even Death and Hades will then be conquered enemies, no more to be seen or experienced. All these treasures, however, are invisible to the natural eye. They can only be appropriated by faith and form "the inheritance that nothing can destroy or spoil or wither" which is "kept for us in heaven".

Jesus guarantees the young man these heavenly riches if he is able to relinquish his earthly certainties. The young man had many possessions which demanded his care and worry. He had more than money only. He had his prestige, his status, the ceremonies of the Old Covenant, his sincerity, his long prayers, the solemn garments, the whole content of an outward religious life with its abstinence, observance of the Sabbath, precepts and solemnities. "Give it to the poor", the Lord advised him. 'Give your money to those who need it to lead a life of minimum necessities and give all the outward show to the Pharisees and Scribes for whom these things are indispensable to maintain themselves in the religious world. Follow Me to hear the truth in a care-free way and to share in the treasure of the Kingdom of God'.

The rich young man was unable to switch over from earth to heaven, from the visible to the unseen. He did not follow Jesus but went away with a heavy heart. Everyone of us too have to make the choice: either a Christian life on the basis of the Old Testament, or a Christian life that makes perfection its aim through a renewal of the mind and through faith.

======================

Go and sin no more
by murrcolr on 2009/8/20 13:50:15

John 8:11
"She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

John 5:14
"Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

I guess the strongest argument is that impossible not to sin. But why would Jesus say, "Sin no more" in John 5:14 and 8:11. Is Jesus being facetious because He knew it was impossible to do? Does he mean, don't do a particular sin any more?

But there is no getting away from the fact, God expects us to stop sinning. God expects prefeection in our lives.

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
Matthew 5:48

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you."
Philippians 3:15

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."
2Corinthians 7:1

Sinlessness and perfection I rememebr talking to a Pastor about these things and he said it's impossible that we will never attain this in this life.

My belief is that it is possible to live a life where we "sin no more" although I cannot say it's a fact in my life, what do you believe and why?

======================

Hi! Butters

Yes, your observation is correct.
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that there are many abusive ideas which become attached to the foundations of our Christian faith and/or doctrines.
Nonetheless, the question of Jesus (Matthew 19:16) remains for each of us to properly answer: Do you want to be perfect?".

This question is the third of three questions which must be answered by every Christian.
The second question is found in John 5:6, "Do you want to get well?".
The first question is found in Matthew 16:13, "Who do you say I am?"

I'm sure you'll agree that the two preceding questions which we have already answered on our Christian journey have also been severely abused and misrepresented. Yet, we have somehow managed to find our way and now find ourselves standing at the third question: "Do you want to be perfect?".

=====================
Re: Go and sin no more
by Butters on 2012/6/24 15:39:19
It is the toxic doctrine that a christian MUST lead a sinless life or be damned that I find detestable. If such a doctrine is true then we have an unmerciful and un-saving saviour who kicks us when we are down. Certainly if this is true then I (and probably most of you) are headed for hell.
=====================

Jesus did not mean sinless perfection. He meant that the Sin that you know do not do it anymore. This is a very tough thing to understand, I am very sure most believers do not understand this. We can only abstrain from things that we know as sin but there might be many areas of our life in which we do not know about sin.

It is like a baby who learns things, she might not know that touching fire will burn her hand but once she experiences it she will never do it again. But that does not mean she learnt about putting her fingure into electic outlet. She is yet to learn about that danger. So based on the dangers she knew she will not commit them.

This is what John meant in his first letter when he said that 'if we say that we do not have sin then we deceive ourself', he also went futher saying 'I write this letter so that you may not sin'. Are these 2 statements contradictory? No they are not, in the first statement he meant Sins that are unknown to us. So he means that there might be so many sins in me that I am totally unkown of, hence I need to believe in Jesus for my Righteousness. But in the second statement he speaks about Sin that are known to us. He wants us not to commit them anymore.

It is not the notion of saying sin should not be the norm and that we should strive against sin that I find problematic. Even the suggestion that a Christian might be able to attain some kind of sinless state seems laudable.

However, It is the toxic doctrine that a christian MUST lead a sinless life or be damned that I find detestable. If such a doctrine is true then we have an unmerciful and un-saving saviour who kicks us when we are down. Certainly if this is true then I (and probably most of you) are headed for hell.

You are totally wrong, you mix human argument and logic in understanding God's work. A simple question about Jesus will prove your logic wrong. Was Jesus sinless? Was he not in the likeness of our flesh? How was he able to live a sinless life? Did he have anything extra that we do not have?

The answer is Jesus was able to live a sinless life though the same Holy Spirit that is also gifted to every believer who truely seeks him. If we have the same Holy Spirit that Jesus had then why do you believe that we cannot live like Jesus? If you still believe it is impossible then it is unbelief, please repent from it. Do not be confused with Human doctrine any more.
1 John 3:3 - says -
We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

So if you do not have this hope that you will be like Jesus one day then you are an unbeliever, Period. If you really have this hope then you will purify yourself and believe that no matter how wretched your status today is, one day you will be like Jesus by the power of God.

Forgive me If I have hurt you, Unbelief is the greatest tool of Satan, we should be very careful not to spread it and help him.

Here is a good response to John chapter 8 when Jesus says, "Go and sin no more."

http://www.pastormattrichard.com/2012/04/go-and-sin-no-more-taking-closer-look.html

Amen, Sree RE Sree wrote /A simple question about Jesus will prove your logic wrong. Was Jesus sinless? Was he not in the likeness of our flesh? How was he able to live a sinless life? Did he have anything extra that we do not have?/

Modern Christianity does not believe that Jesus was made in the likeness of our flesh rather that he had a special flesh,Thus what he accomplished is impossable for The Christian to attain. Augustines doctrine of original sin denies That Christ came in the same flesh as us.

proudpapa wrote:

Modern Christianity does not believe that Jesus was made in the likeness of our flesh rather that he had a special flesh,Thus what he accomplished is impossable for The Christian to attain. Augustines doctrine of original sin denies That Christ came in the same flesh as us.

My response:

Actually original sin as taught by Christian orthodoxy holds that it was Christ's nature that was sinless. His physical flesh was the same as any other man's. Christ did not inherit a sinful nature because he was virgin born and did not inherit Adam's sin.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man (ADAM) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men (except Jesus who was conceived of the Holy Spirit and virgin born), for that all have sinned (except of course Jesus).
Exposition placed in parentheses

The sinless life that Jesus lived is impossible for the unregenerate sinner (by nature) to attain but is possible for the Christian to attain because of the cross and resurrection. The cross not only provides forgiveness for our sins by the substitution of Christ's perfect life for our sinful life but also we died WITH HIM. That sinful nature that the Christian inherited at physical birth from Adam was crucified with Christ and we are now DEAD to sin. Sin here speaks not of acts of sin but of the power of sin which is sometimes referred to as sinful nature today in order to not confuse it with sin meaning sinful acts. And every Christian receives the Holy Spirit in their spirit to live in the power of Christ-likeness. So because of the cross and resurrection and pentecost it is possible for every born again Christian to live a life free from the dominion of sin.

evn the perfect matured christan sinns unwillingly ,,he may not be concence of thoses sins ,but still as the james says stumbles in many things ,,weasly taught this type of perfection watchman nee something similar

jesus did not live like this ,he did not sin at all ,not even by accacadent not once ,,,sinless perfection

hundsane taylor was calvinistic ,,so he also believed in a inputed posional righeosness ,,,

RE:TrueWitness wrote /Actually original sin as taught by Christian orthodoxy holds that it was Christ's nature that was sinless. His physical flesh was the same as any other man's. Christ did not inherit a sinful nature because he was virgin born and did not inherit Adam's sin./

Christian Orthodoxy teachs that The sarx of man is sin!

RE:TrueWitness wrote // The sinless life that Jesus lived is impossible for the unregenerate sinner (by nature) to attain but is possible for the Christian to attain because of the cross and resurrection. The cross not only provides forgiveness for our sins by the substitution of Christ's perfect life for our sinful life but also we died WITH HIM. That sinful nature that the Christian inherited at physical birth from Adam was crucified with Christ and we are now DEAD to sin. Sin here speaks not of acts of sin but of the power of sin which is sometimes referred to as sinful nature today in order to not confuse it with sin meaning sinful acts. And every Christian receives the Holy Spirit in their spirit to live in the power of Christ-likeness. So because of the cross and resurrection and pentecost it is possible for every born again Christian to live a life free from the dominion of sin.//

Very well Said. Amen!

Wow…..3 years ago I posted this thread...

Quote: Every Christian has this same question of Jesus placed before them: "Would you be perfect?". The average church-goer would answer that he expects to be a sinner until he dies, always ready to fall in some kind of sin. The evangelical Christian would refuse to answer this question by saying that he would rather be 'broken' and humble, his daily prayer is to be a 'doormat' in the house of the Lord. In their opinion, perfection will only come after death.

Is that not like saying death then becomes your “deliverer”. My bible says “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:26. Death is a enemy not a deliverer.

Quote: They desire to be known as respectable Christian sinners! For the modern Christian the idea of perfection is absurd and unacceptable. He who asks the question will immediately be accused of perfectionism' and 'sinlessness'.

Whatever happened to the Holiness movement…

Quote: There is a Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven that offers unprecedented perspectives. This had never been preached before but Jesus revealed it. To be perfect, (not to become perfect after death), the young man has to surrender his earthly securities. He will have to be strong and steadfast in faith, not in wealth. He will have to enter into the invisible Kingdom of God to lay up treasure there where moth or rust do not damage it, which cannot be stolen from him. There he will have to live by faith only. For that reason the Lord advises him: "Go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and then you will have riches in heaven. And come, follow Me".

Oh my dear friend that’s the key. On my quest for Holiness and the call of God this is where I find myself at the cross and the requirement to by an act of faith surrender of all that I am and all that I have. Like Abraham who by a act of faith offered Isaac that is faith with works.

Quote: The rich young man was unable to switch over from earth to heaven, from the visible to the unseen. He did not follow Jesus but went away with a heavy heart. Everyone of us too have to make the choice: either a Christian life on the basis of the Old Testament, or a Christian life that makes perfection its aim through a renewal of the mind and through faith.

Christians struggle to believe that we could “go and sin no more” because they look at there life and the struggle and turn around and say it’s impossible. As Christian’s we will never attain any sort of perfection if we remain “fleshly” in our strength it is impossible. We as Christians can be regenerated (born again) but remain fleshly and attached to the things of this world. To remain fleshly is to remain under the law.

So the Christian who would “go and sin no more” must be changed from fleshly to Spiritual “the veil of flesh” must be rent.

W. Tozer has a remarkable statement on the subject of the veil: There is something more serious than coldness of heart, something that may be the cause of its existence: what is it but the presence of a veil in our hearts, a veil not yet taken away as the first veil was, but which remains there still, shutting out the light, hiding the face of God from us. It is the veil of our fleshly, fallen nature living on, unjudged within us, uncrucified and unrepudiated. It is the close-woven veil of the self-life which we have never truly acknowledged, of which we have been secretly ashamed, and which for these reasons we have never brought to the judgment of the cross.

Quote: The Good News is what God in Christ has already accomplished for us and in us through the Cross. Christ crucified you when He died and you were buried with Him. Your old self died and you received Christ's very Life. You were made one with Him. He made you a NEW CREATION.

Quote: you now have a new pure heart and God's very Divine Nature.

In one sense you are correct “our old man is crucified with him” Rom 6:6 that I do not dispute and I don’t dispute the change that comes to those that are Born Again truly these words Born Again shout out that we are a new creation. Christ the second Adam is a life giving Spirit so we are born again spiritually. However I do dispute that on conversion we have “a new pure heart” a new spirit yes but not a pure heart, I also believe the seed of the divine nature has been planted in the spirit of the man but the fleshly nature of a man remains. I dispute it because one it’s opposite to what the Holy Spirit has shown me and two it’s not what scripture says.

Let’s look at what scripture says Col 3:8-9 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds.

We have to put off because we have put off I hope you can see it. These verses plainly state that something remains to be put off although it’s already been “put off”. Christ did it all on the cross but it’s not all fixed at conversion something remains to be “put off” after conversion.

Lets look at where these things that needs to be “put off” reside things like anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

Mark 7:18-23 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

The heart is the home of these things that need to be “put off” they come from within and defile us, it is the heart that needs to become pure… It’s might worth pointing out at this point that the heart in bible means the soul. Do a study of the bible heart and you come to the conclusion it’s the soul it is speaking about, as all verses will point to the will, emotions or the mind which is the soul and the soul is the seat of self….

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Col 3:12-14 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness

Put on because you have put on. Again these verses imply that something remains to be “put on” This reminds of what Paul said to the Corinthians in Cor 12:31 “yet shew I unto you a more excellent way” You see there is a more excellent way it is putting on bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering and above all these things “put on” charity, ****which is the bond of perfectness**** again it’s all to do with heart (the soul the seat of self)

The Holy Spirit is the one who purifies the heart which is to “put on” charity which is the bond of perfectness and God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith Acts 15:8-9
I really hope you can see it that the Holy Ghost purifies the heart of the believer he is the one who “puts off” and “puts on” he is the one who leads across the Jordan river to “enter his rest” it is him that fills our heart with love which is “the bond of perfectness” all we have to do is by an act of faith is surrender all to him…

Could be a good title for a book ---- “the bond of perfectness”

Edited:-for spacing

/evn the perfect matured christan sinns unwillingly ,,he may not be concence of thoses sins ,but still as the james says stumbles in many things ,,weasly taught this type of perfection watchman nee something similar/

How do you interpet 1 John ch 3 ??

Colin: great post

I realy liked this part
RE:murrcolr wrote /I really hope you can see it that the Holy Ghost purifies the heart of the believer he is the one who “puts off” and “puts on” he is the one who leads across the Jordan river to “enter his rest” it is him that fills our heart with love which is “the bond of perfectness” all we have to do is by an act of faith is surrender all to him…/

He that has entered into his rest hath ceased from his own works

Hi! murrcolr
Again, thank you for this Thread and especially for your daring comments and treasure of scriptural insight.

When I first repented, I thought of my new Christian life largely in terms of a blackboard ... a sin score-keeper of sorts. Every morning and every night I would close my eyes and ask Jesus to please wipe the blackboard clean.
My pastor said at the time: "Jesus doesn't put a new suit on an old man; rather, He puts a new man under the old suit".

Not long after, I was introduced to the labyrinth of dyin' an' killin' doctrines; the discipleship theories. I chased myself into a dizzy suffocating mess trying to unravel my inner self while desperately excavating my navel.
It became increasingly difficult to continue negotiating between the self that I was and the self that I was supposed to be ... and the self that God wanted me to be because I was so very busy dyin' an' killin' .

It was after many years of enduring excruciating contrariety that I discovered that my Christian journey was no further advanced than the faithful of the Old Covenant.

One day I imagined a police line-up. All the persons were reformed alcoholics save one ... who was a born-again Christian. I began to wonder to myself about how I was to distinguish the reformed from the 'transformed'.
I realized that I couldn't distinguish between those who had attended an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting and the one who had attended a church meeting. This greatly dismayed me.

So, that's how I perceived my emptiness.
The imagined 'reformed' alcoholics in the line-up could easily testify near exact what I myself could ... and I was supposed to be the one 'transformed' ... a new man under the old suit.

In spite of my reading a library of theology books, attending church and immersing myself in Bible study over many years, the only thing I had to show for the experience was a 'reformation' and not 'transformation'; a clean slate and not a 'newness of life'. While the alcoholics were boasting about a new day of abstinence, the best that I could hope for was to piously thread water and wait for Jesus to return.

It took me a couple of years of wrestling with difficult questions before I realized that my Christian life was no further advanced than the faithful of the Old Covenant. I had mistakenly subjected myself under the yoke of Sinai instead of Jesus.

In many evangelical circles today we see people seeking a revival; but they do so in the Old Testament way. They are looking for an Elijah or a John the Baptist. By doing so, they testify to be living outside the New Testament and it's Gospel of the Kingdom.
After all, concerning even the greatest of the Old Covenant, the Lord Himself said that the smallest in the Kingdom of God, is more than these men of God, (Matt 11:11). The saints of the Old Testament were living at a level below that of the New Covenant.

The prophets of the Old Covenant were unable to lead the people to a 'newness of life'. And, in spite of all the outcry for repentance, reflection, humiliation, and confession that goes on in present-day Christianity, neither can this help those who are desperately seeking 'transformation'; a New Testament encounter with the Spirit of God. The Lord says, "These you ought to do, without neglecting the others".

Yes, it remains proper and true that we rightly blow the Old Testament trumpet that the righteous live by faith. After all, in faith we accepted the forgiveness of sin and in faith we sought after justification.

But what can Sinai tell us about the Kingdom of heaven? About our living and having our being there?
What can our following after the Old Testament way of seeking and finding give insight into the Kingdom of the Son of God's love?

We are living in a time of harsh inner injuries and damage having been done to people. Neither the testimony of John the Baptist nor any other great saint of the Old Testament is sufficient to heal and restore them for God.

We have to examine ourselves to see if we remain in the faith; if we follow after the Gospel of Jesus. And this can only become real to us when we answer the question of Jesus: "Would you be perfect?"

======================================
Re:
by murrcolr on 2012/6/25 13:50:50

Wow…..3 years ago I posted this thread...
=======================================

Blayne --- Your testimony reminds so much of Andrew Murray’s book the Two covenants and the Second Blessing. It’s amazing the different ways that the Holy Spirit will lead the individual into the truth.

Quote: It took me a couple of years of wrestling with difficult questions before I realized that my Christian life was no further advanced than the faithful of the Old Covenant. I had mistakenly subjected myself under the yoke of Sinai instead of Jesus.

Can you tell me more of your testimony, what happened next…

http://www.jesus.org.uk/vault/library/murray_two_covenants.pdf

Hi! murrcolr

I've DownLoaded the "Two Covenants" file and I plan to read it from start-to-finish later this day. Thanks for the Link.

At the time, I had read all of Murray's books and every single one of Watchman Nee's too and dozens of other 'famous' Christian authors and none of these had sufficient teaching which could "lift me out of the miry clay", (Psalm 40:2).

You see, Murrcolr, I was not merely blind, but deaf and robbed by thieves; also bound and in prison; I was not only dead, but was buried too. Whoever says, "Come forth!", to such a man must say it with authority; and only Lazarus himself knows what such a journey entails.

Murrcolr, I want to be perfectly honest with you and others in here; but I don't wish to offend nor agitate any of you either.
Ummm, take for instance this Thread by Member 'RainyDayGirl', [ https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=45463&forum=35&0 ].
When I read that RainyDayGirl's question, I wanted to reply saying: "God has nothing to do with convicting people!". But then I said to myself, "Blayne, you don't want to open up yet another can of worms, do you?".

So many sincere people have their ideas about God all neatly packaged and are loathe to re-examine. It's like visiting a Doctor's office and being content with his Medicine Diploma which is dated for the year 1823.
God has spoken to His people since 1823; He is speaking to His people in this very day and hour! His Word is alive and being preached. New and exciting things have and are being revealed and taught.

Sadly, there are some who insist to remain content with the 1823 packaging of their Gospel. Therefore, the Great Physician can only heal and restore them to the extent of their 1823 knowledge of the Scriptures.

You asked if I could tell you more ... what happened next. To be honest, Murrcolr, it's much too long a story to tell here. At least twenty years ago my Christian friends had suggested that I perhaps write a book. It wasn't until this year that I began to follow their advice and I'm now composing "The Land of Stolen Spirits". It will tell the story of a horrific childhood (where my parents punished me by placing my hands in a coal furnace) and continue through several years of imprisonment in some of the most dangerous penitentiaries and end with my being introduced to the Gospel of the Kingdom. (It will be distributed entirely free and is undergoing proof-reading now; but I can give you a peek at the first Chapter if you wish).

Yes, you are so right in saying "It's amazing the different ways that the Holy Spirit will lead the individual into the truth". That's the wonderous God whom we have! He puts us on His lap and speaks to us in a language that is especially measured for our individual understanding.

========================

Re:
by murrcolr on 2012/6/26 6:09:05

Blayne --- Your testimony reminds so much of Andrew Murray’s book the Two covenants and the Second Blessing. It’s amazing the different ways that the Holy Spirit will lead the individual into the truth.

Quote: It took me a couple of years of wrestling with difficult questions before I realized that my Christian life was no further advanced than the faithful of the Old Covenant. I had mistakenly subjected myself under the yoke of Sinai instead of Jesus.

Can you tell me more of your testimony, what happened next…

http://www.jesus.org.uk/vault/library/murray_two_covenants.pdf
========================

"Why would Jesus say, "go and sin no more" unless it was possible? Why would God say "thou shalt not" at threat of eternal hell, unless we were capable?"

That is a very easy question to reply to.

Jesus was not talking to you or any other Christians.

Jesus words were directed to His fellow Jews, and to the Jews only. Jesus referred to gentiles as dogs unworthy of eating the food of God's people, the Jews.

When Jesus spoke those words, there was no New Testament, nor the Gosepl revealed. At that time Jesus was a Rabbi (actually the Chief Rabbi since He was the Son of God, but His felloe Jews did not know who Jesus actually IS, the only begotten SON of the FATHER), living under the Mosaic Law, which were in full effect until Jesus death on the cross.

If Jesus were to teach His fellows Jews to violate the Mosaic covenant by embracing the New Laws of the New Covenant, then Jesus would be violating The Mosaic Covenant, which would be a sin and this would have eliminated Jesus as being the perfect Paschal Lamb of God who was unblemished because He kept all the Laws of the Mosaic Covenant from Birth through His death bey crucifixion.

Upon His death, God annihilated the Mosaic Covenant. And God repleaced it with the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

The difference between the two Covenants is:

The Mosaic Covenant ( a Bi-Lateral Contract) required His People to collectively keep 613 laws to receive the Blessings promised in that Contract.

The New Covenant of Jesus Christ (a unilateral Contract), consisting of three laws whereby God keeps us, a true gift from God to all who received and accepted Jesus as Lord and redeemer via His atoning blood shed on the cross to all whom receive it as a covering of all their sins for all time.

No Christian, except Jesus, will ever be sinless during their lifetime on Earth. How do we know this:

1 John 5-10

5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8. IF WE SAY THAT WE HAVE NO SIN, WE ARE DECEIVING OURSELVES AND THE TRUTH, WE ARE DECEIVING OURSELVES.

9 IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, HE IS FAITHFUL AND RIGHTEOUS TO FORGIVE US OUR SINS AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

10. IF WE SAY WE HAVE NOT SINNED, WE MAKE HIM A LIAR AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US.

Hi! ArtB

Wow! You took the words right out of my mouth, (as the the saying goes).

You wrote:
"The difference between the two Covenants is:
The Mosaic Covenant ( a Bi-Lateral Contract) required His People to collectively keep 613 laws to receive the Blessings promised in that Contract.
The New Covenant of Jesus Christ (a unilateral Contract), consisting of three laws whereby God keeps us, a true gift from God to all who received and accepted Jesus as Lord and redeemer via His atoning blood shed on the cross to all whom receive it as a covering of all their sins for all time."

Ummm, let's further look into your comment:
Abraham and the rest of the Old Testament faithful are 'saved' ... would you agree?
Their sacrifices of animals in the Old Covenant foreshadowed the sacrifice of the Lamb of God in the New Covenant, .... would you agree?
I believe you would.

The question still remains:
What promises do we New Covenant Christians have that Isaiah or John the Baptist did not have?
The faithful of the Old Testament and New Testament both have a share in forgiveness of sins and righteousness as a result of turning away from sin and iniquity.

So, there obviously must be something that we are to possess as New Testament faithful which the the Old Testament faithful could not.

Some might say that the Old Testament faithful followed instructions given by God while the New Testament faithful follow after the Gospel of Jesus.
But isn't the result essentially the same? Are not both groups 'saved'?

Do you see what I'm trying to say here?
Jesus did not come to replicate the Old Covenant; albeit, under a new set of instructions and rules. The work and ministry of Jesus revealed the ENTIRE thoughts of God; the ultimate intention and purposes of God towards man.

Chapters 5 & 10 of Romans mention the subject of 'being saved' or 'salvation'. Paul wasn't speaking about the traditional idea of 'being saved for eternity' but rather that our life is saved for the great plan of God.
There is more to life under God's sun than just the necessary knowledge of being 'saved'. Life in the New Covenant offers the greatest possibility that, once having been justified in the blood of the Lamb, we can exist as sons of God Almighty. What a glorious inheritance the heavenly Father has given to His children!

So? What were these intentions and purposes of God that the Old Covenant faithful longed to see but did not?

It may sound humble and meek when a child of God says: "I am such a great sinner". In reality, however, he undermines Christ's work of salvation. When we have sinned we have to confess our sins to God, and then we have to believe that we are perfectly clean. Then we are also able to "draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience", (Heb 10:22). Now, at this very moment, we are holy and righteous and pure because of the word which God has spoken to us, (John 15:3).

The very same power by which Jesus rose from the dead is also at work in the children of God, (Rom 5:11). For that reason all things are possible not only with God but also with all who believe (Mark 9:23). Those who insist to testify that they remain as sinners until death are aligned with "Having a form of godliness, but denying its power".

Truly, the Spirit of God is doing a great work in us. He penetrates into the deepest corners of our heart. God is increasingly and continually renewing our life. It is this process of change which often creates our intense joy. Actually, what is the greatest miracle on earth? Isn't it the miracle of a sinful person changing into a perfectly blameless cooperator with God, a fully spiritual human being?

"Filled with the knowledge of his will", (Col 1:9), what exactly does this verse mean? The next few verses supply the answer: it is that we obtain wisdom, understanding and spiritual insight; the purpose of all this being to lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to Him, and bearing fruit in every good work.

Knowledge of the will of God, combined with wisdom and spiritual understanding aim at that one great purpose: that the man of God should be perfect.

Many Christians will stammer and protest when they hear this. "Impossible!, they will exclaim; "We are sinful people and we'll remain sinful until we die, imperfect people, always ready to do evil".

If this were really true, Paul the apostle would be an unspiritual man, a dreamer. For what did he write to the church of the Colossians? Let me list it once again. First: you are a good congregation; faith, hope and love are found among you, and that is fine! Second, now that I know this I'll pray for you that you will be full of the right knowledge of the will of God. And finally, the purpose of this fulness is that you should lead a life worthy of the Lord and be fully pleasing to Him.

So, we have yet another question: was it really possible for these people to be fully pleasing to God? If we say No to this, we have made Paul a man who prayed for an impossible thing, and that seems like an improbable matter to me because Paul was guided by the Spirit of God.

But if we answer Yes to this question, there's another problem. If the Colossians would be fully pleasing to God, would there still be sin left in them?
If we answer Yes to this question it would be tantamount to stating that certain sins are pleasing to God, and that of course is absurd.
So, it clearly means that those faithful who fully please God do not sin any longer. In other words: they are perfect, without sin!
When that is the case, Paul's prayer would have come true: they would be bearing fruit in every good work. No more evil works but only good works.
But in those days the church of Colossae had not reached that level yet. And that's why the apostle prayed for them, that the things which were not yet would come into being. This was a prayer inspired by the Holy Spirit.

To be fully pleasing to God: what an exalted thought! It is almost too great to grasp that this is possible for mere man. Personally I have to admit that I am unable to understand it, but at the same time I press on for it, for the simple reason that it is the will of God for us.

I'm very much aware this idea is rejected by many Christians. Many keep saying that man cannot become perfect. In due time, in heaven, all unrighteousness will be removed in one fell swoop, they say, but here it will always be a matter of muddling through.
I constantly find myself asking: "Don't these people read the bible?"
My faith is that in the power of the Holy Spirit who, according to the promise of God, is able to do in us far more abundantly than we ask or think.

I'd rather be in the company of those who let themselves be guided by Paul's exhortations. After these many centuries we again want to be taught by his letters and be aware of the fact that God has not changed, nor has the will of God. We want to be filled with the will of God; we want to put our mind on it and realise it in our lives. And even though we may not be perfect yet, we want to increase in the right knowledge of the will of God. Bearing fruit in every good work, being fully pleasing to Him, that is what God wills!

I think the root of the problem is that many people misunderstand the words repentance and regeneration; the words are synonymous to them. The words have been given a certain emotional value, but seldom is the emotional value tested if it is scriptural or not. This can cause a tremendous amount of false ideas about our Christian journey.

Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit. God dwells in us! He takes my weakness and I receive His strength. He takes my poverty and I receive His riches. We are fellow workers with God! We are sinners no longer, but saints! We are re-created to be conformed to the image of the Son, supermen in the true sense of the word!
As the Philistines cut Samson's hair and gouged out his eyes, robbing him of his strength and glory, so the man of God in Christ has been treated by generations of religious teachers and leaders. Yet, as Samson recovered once again at the end of his life, so we too have the promise that "by God's power we are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time", (1Peter 1:5).

Is our knowledge imperfect? Are our actions imperfect? Yes, at present, they are, but is it going to become less and less the case. We will become less imperfect! When we think about it in this way, the idea, (and the hope it brings), can be grasped. Less imperfect! That IS something that can be realized.

The rough edges of the stone are polished gradually. Our great Teacher is patient, He does not stand behind us with a whip or cane. Those who learn are allowed to make mistakes - but not always the same ones. When our sole desire is to learn to become what God wants us to be, then the imperfections in our personal lives will continually grow less. Always bearing in mind that 'less imperfect' is the same thing as 'more perfect'. Isn't this true?

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Re: Christians will sin throughout our life on Earth.
by ArtB on 2012/6/26 9:36:30
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quote from Blayne, "It may sound humble and meek when a child of God says: "I am such a great sinner". In reality, however, he undermines Christ's work of salvation."

With all due respect that contradicts Paul's own estimation of himself in 1Timothy 1:15, "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief."

In calling himself the chief of sinners, was Paul undermining Christ's work of salvation?

Quote: With all due respect that contradicts Paul's own estimation of himself in 1Timothy 1:15, "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief."

With the greatest of respect to you we must keep reading onto the next verse to really see what Paul is saying.

1 Timothy 1: 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

The Chief of sinners obtained mercy so that Christ in “Paul’s life first” might show forth his lonsuffering and that “Paul’s life” would be a pattern or example to them who would believe on Christ.

In a nutshell Paul is saying “I was the chief of sinner but now I am your example of a Christian”

Now the statement above is far different from "I am such a great sinner"

That is a very easy question to reply to.

Jesus was not talking to you or any other Christians.

Jesus words were directed to His fellow Jews, and to the Jews only. Jesus referred to gentiles as dogs unworthy of eating the food of God's people, the Jews.

None of the Preachers listed here in this site believe that certain teachings of Jesus is not applicable to us. I once Asked Greg about such strange teachings that few posters are introducing into his site and why he does not delete such senseless posts. He said that not everyone is spiritually mature, and we have to wait till people who post such faulty doctrines mature. But according to me the problem is not maturity of people like this, they are plainly unbelievers. Anyone who does not believe in the words of Jesus is an unbeliever. Period.

Please do not act as a tool of Satan to spread such unbelief.

Blayne: I read your post, but I can not reply now. There are times in the day that my mind shuts with complexity, and that is now.

murrcolr: Your response to 'oracio' is good.

Sree: If Sermonindex should ask me not to post here, I certainly would honor their request, and my blessings would remain with them.

Let me ask you a few questions, Sree:

Is the New Covenant of Jesus Christ (i.e. new Contract with God) the same as The Mosaic Covenant (again Covenant = Contract)?

Is Jesus a Priest of the Levitical priesthood?

Or is Jesus a Priest according to the Superior Priesthood of Melchizedek?

And one more question.

Surely the New Covenant of Jesus Christ must be different than the Mosaic Covenant in regard to how we obtain salvation, if not, then the New Covenant must be a duplicate of the Mosaic Covenant. I doubt any Christian believes that. The Jews certainly don't. The Mosaic Covenant was based on obedience to a long list of commandments, with great blessings for keeping them, and horrid curses for not keeping them The New Covenant is based upon the sacrifice of the Perfect Paschal Lamb whose blood shed on the cross washes away all sins for all time to all who accept that blood of Jesus for forgiveness of all our sins.

The Mosaic Covenant was in effect until the moment of Jesus Death.Upon Jesus death, the Mosaic Covenant was annihilated upon Jesus death on the cross.

Zechariah 11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

THE DOOMED FLOCKED

11:1 Open your doors, O Lebanon, That a fire may feed on your cedars.

2 Wail, O cypress, for the cedar has fallen, Because the glorious trees have been destroyed; Wail, O oaks of Bashan, For the impenetrable forest has come down.

3 There is a sound of the shepherds’ wail, For their glory is ruined; There is a sound of the young lions’ roar, For the pride of the Jordan is ruined.

FROM THE TIME OF JESUS DEATH TILL THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE (30 AD - 70 AD), THE DOORS OF HEROD'S TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM KEPT SWINGING OPEN. THE HIGH PRIEST AND JEWS UNDERSTOOD saw this as a sign THAT THE PROPHECY ZEC 11:1-3 WAS NEAR.

ZEC: 4 Thus says the Lord my God, “Pasture the flock doomed to slaughter.

5 Those who buy them slay them and go unpunished, and each of those who sell them says, ‘Blessed be the Lord, for I have become rich!’ And their own shepherds have no pity on them.

6 For I will no longer have pity on the inhabitants of the land,” declares the Lord; “but behold, I will cause the men to fall, each into another’s power and into the power of his king; and they will strike the land, and I will not deliver them from their [ENEMY'S] power.”

7 So I pastured the flock doomed to slaughter, hence the afflicted of the flock. And I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Favor and the other I called Union; so I pastured the flock.

8 Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me.

9 Then I said, “I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another’s flesh.”

10 I took my staff 'Favor' and cut it in pieces, TO BREAK MY COVENANT WHICH I HAD MADE WITH ALL THE PEOPLES.

11 So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the Lord.

12 I said to them, “If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!” So they weighed out THIRTY SHEKELS OF SILVER as my wages.

13 Then THE LORD SAID to me, “Throw it to the potter, THAT MAGNIFICIENT PRICE AT WHICH I WAS VALUED BY THEM.” So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the Lord.

It ought to be clear that the only bilateral Covenant that God made with the peoples, can only be the peoples of the Exodus, the Mosaic Law.

The New Covenant is a unilateral Covenant. Whomever accepts the atoning blood of the perfect Paschal Lamb, Jesus our Messiah.

So when Jesus was in Judea preaching only to His fellow Jews, teaching them how best to keep the Mosaic Law. Had Jesus preached the New Covenant prior to to His Crucifixion, Jesus would have been in violation of the Mosaic Covenant, and that would have nullified Jesus being the unblemished Lamb of God who takes away all our sins with His blood covering.

Jesus was Israel's true High Priest, and the words He spoke was to His fellow Jews, teaching them on the best ways to keep the Mosaic Laws. The Sermon on the Mount was a brilliant Sermon from Jesus to His people Jews on the best approach to keep the Mosaic Laws. Jesus did not preach salvation to the gentiles, His ministry was to His fellow Jews. Jesus referred to the the gentiles as dogs unworthy of the bread that God gives to His people, the Jews.

Jesus never sought to preach the gospel to the gentiles, until after His ressurrection, upon the establishment of the New Covenant.

Had Jesus teached the New Covenant, He would have have violated the Mosaic covenant. Even the Jews accused Him of this and Jesus told them outright that was not true. But He did heal gentiles who came to Him by faith. For that is God's nature, to help those who come to Him out and seeking God's mercy.

The Jewish leadership corporately as a nation rejected Jesus, and handed Jesus to the Romans who Crucified Him. Upon His death, God annihilated the bilateral Contract with His people, the Mosaic Covenant. Upon His ressurrection the New Covenant of Jesus New Covenant was established, and Jesus began to plainly explain the New Covenant to His disciples.

Sree, you are right to call this out, ArtB has introduced these strange teachings for some time now.

I believe that we can be certain that Jesus taught many things that we need to know and obey. This hyper-dispensationalist theology that is being introduced here by ArtB would rob the Church of the greatest statements of true Christian living that came from the lips of Jesus Christ our Lord.

Christ's teachings have clear application to Christians today and most of His message is repeated in the substance elsewhere throughout the New Testament. There is nothing to indicate that this message is to be limited in its application only to the people of Israel and to argue that Jesus would be breaking the Old Covenant by teaching the New Covenant, simply doesn't follow.

Christ's teachings are simply not a restatement, expansion, or supplement of the law but are the highest expression of the quality of Christian living which Christ alone can produce. The gospel is the message of the person and work of Jesus Christ. Its incredible "good news" is that He can do for us what we cannot do for ourselves; He can change a sinner into a saint.

In Christ,

Ron

quote from murrcolr: "In a nutshell Paul is saying “I was the chief of sinner but now I am your example of a Christian”

Paul did not say "of whom I WAS chief" but "of whom I AM chief. If he meant to say he used to be the chief of sinners in the past the translaters would have used the word "was" and not "am". Seems clear to me it's in the present tense not the past.

quote from murrcolr: "Now the statement above is far different from "I am such a great sinner"

Paul's statement is different in that Paul called himself the greatest of sinners, not just such a great sinner.

If Paul considered himself the greatest of sinners though God used him so powerfully should we really have a problem in considering ourselves sinners?

Paul is saying that in and of himself he is nothing but a hell-deserving sinner. That is what we all are in reality. Yet if we are in Christ God does not see our sins and hold them against us to condemn us(Rom.8:1). God sees the righteousness of His own Son applied to our account(Phil.3:9). We are His blood-bought children despite our shortcomings in this life.

I know that some take the grace of God as a liscense to sin and are deceived and hell-bound. But that does not negate the truth of God's grace at work in the life of every true child of God.

Seems clear to me that we are sinners and saints at the same time. We are saints because God has set us apart for Himself and His grace is powerfully at work in our lives, conforming us into the image of Christ. We are sinners because we still sin in this body of death, until we receive our full adoption, the redemption of our bodies.

My concern is with those who would be so adamant in having us believe we can attain sinless perfection in this life for even one whole day. Scripture does not teach such a thing.

After knowing some who have been caught up in that teaching and dealing with it I am convinced there is a demonic presence behind it. I would warn anyone to flee from it as far as they can for it is very destructive spiritually, mentally and emotionally.

If Sermonindex should ask me not to post here, I certainly would honor their request, and my blessings would remain with them.

Is the New Covenant of Jesus Christ (i.e. new Contract with God) the same as The Mosaic Covenant (again Covenant = Contract)?

New Covenant is way higher standard than Old Covenant, old Covenant deals only with Laws that deals with external purification but New Covenant deals with Grace that purifies from Inside. Like Jesus said, if the inside of Cup is pure then the outside will be purified by itself. That is why the blessing of OC where all external like wealth, riches etc.

If my standard of Holiness is in any ways lesser than a Jew who lives by Law then I should put my face on to dust and cry out that I have not experienced NC life at all and I am not saved yet. Our standard should be much more higher than anyone who lives by law. But today most of the Christians live a shameful life much worse than lawless unbelievers. All because of strange doctrine like yours that deviated so much from truth.

So when Jesus was in Judea preaching only to His fellow Jews, teaching them how best to keep the Mosaic Law.

The main difference between Law and Grace is this, Law only brings conviction of Sin into our heart and making us Guilty. But Grace will not only bring conviction but also strengthen us to obey and overcome Sin by the power of Holy Spirit. This is the same Power that raised Jesus from Dead is also working in us today to raise our standards to that of God's standard. But for this to happen we need to believe that we will be converted to image of Jesus one day (1 John 3:3). This is the same Holy Spirit who enabled Jesus to live a sinless life and now he is dwelling in us to make us Holy.

If Jesus was able to live a sinless life with the same Holy Spirit then why can't I who is also in the likeness of his earthly form live such life by the power of Same Holy Spirit? If I think I cannot live then it is unbelief. This is what people like you are spreading. What gain do you get by hiding this good news?

Had Jesus preached the New Covenant prior to to His Crucifixion, Jesus would have been in violation of the Mosaic Covenant, and that would have nullified Jesus being the unblemished Lamb of God who takes away all our sins with His blood covering.

Is it? Because you believe in such lies you entered into unbelief. Jesus preached New Covenant and he did not sin by doing it.
John 6-54:-He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.

These verse Jesus spoke to Jews, how can this be Old Covenant? If he preached only Old Covenant then he should have told them that Eternal life is in keeping law.

This is just one verse, I can quote more but I do not want to argue.

The Sermon on the Mount was a brilliant Sermon from Jesus to His people Jews on the best approach to keep the Mosaic Laws.

Sermon on the Mount is not Old Covenant law, if it was old covenant law then it will be only external purification but Sermon on the Mount is all about internal purification. Here Jesus is taking about anger in heart is equivalent to murder, where in Old Covenant is this told? Lust in eye is same as adultery, where in OC is this said? Every thing that Jesus spoke here are all Internal purification, no mention of any external law in the entire sermon that Moses gave to Jews.

It is Shame that Christians do not appreciate beauty of this wonderful sermon and are running away from it, but unbelievers like Mahatma Gandhi has applied it to get freedom for a nation.

Jesus never sought to preach the gospel to the gentiles, until after His ressurrection, upon the establishment of the New Covenant.

This alone is true in your entire post. Jesus did not preach to Gentiles nor ask his disciples to go to Gentiles when he was on this earth because a Covenant was not made with Gentiles till then. To ask some one to believe there must be a promise. Without a promise what will Jesus or his disciples ask the Gentiles to believe in? Abraham was given a promise that he will have descendants as much as stars in the sky and he believed it. Without promise there is no belief. Simple, so Jesus wanted his disciples to wait till the Resurrection so that a covenant will be made with Gentiles though his own blood. So your logic of saying Jesus did not want his teachings to be applied to Gentiles that is why he did not go to them is totally wrong.

John 5-45:-
the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?

Jews had their hope on Moses but did not believe his writings. Same way people like you teach Christians to have their hope on Jesus but not to believe in his teachings. You know what the judgment is facing you.

If a mans's wife tells him that I believe in you but I will not obey any of your words then is that a true belief? No it is unbelief, she is playing harlot with her husband.

See if you think you will never be Christlike then keep it to your self. I have seen people who have never had even a bad mood by the power of Holy Spirit. They are my heroes, (the Godly of my land are my heroes). I do not want people who call themselves christian but live a shameful life with divorce, adultery etc to tell me that I cannot be Christlike.
Please do not cause any little one of God to stumble by spreading this teaching of unbelief using all your human argument. You might know the what Jesus told about such people (Matthew 18:6). Milestone is a better option!!!

to cut to the chase many great men of god have been arguging about this for years ,,both sides of the camp are solid christan,,look at george whitfield one of the greastes preaches scince the apostals ,,weasly said that ,but weasly himself taught perfecinisim ,,but entirely sinless perfection

it is absaulty a sin to slander and with a wide brush tar all those who taught and believed as whitfield did

and vica verse to slander the dead saint of the calaber of weasly and others who believed as he

iv seen in hapen on this thred

be slow to speak and slow to wrath

do we realy beleieve this scripture

we may do well to put the breaks on our mouths ,and repent our selfs ,,,,thats why i dont post much in here because satan will use opatunity with threds like this and others ,to led us into sin

let us not think we are the holy spirit our selfs ,,and lets not think we need to win the arument ,and be quick to type ,,, and allways puch our theoligy

now that is what greg believs ,,and i thank god we have moderatos mature enough to keep there fingers slow to type and slow to wrath

brother please concider what iv mentioned

may god bless us with powerfull convictions in all arears of our lives in jesus name

lets pray more and do less of these threads ,,that will please god

brotherS revivel DOES NOT COME LIKE THIS

sister revivle came through the doctrines of both men

sister there was enough truth in both of those men to rock the world to this day

blessings

brothagary, John Wesley did not teach what some haved seemed to be presenting in this thread, especially in the opening post. I think you know what I'm referring to. I just started this thread on that topic in case anyone is interested:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=45510&forum=36

blessings,
Oracio

Quote: My belief is that it is possible to live a life where we "sin no more" although I cannot say it's a fact in my life.

Why did I say that I believed it was possible, I used to be a very violent man my temper was uncontrollable and when I would that anger in me was roused I would black out forgetting completely what I done during the rage.

Eventually I cried out to God to save me and deliver me from the anger and rage before I killed someone.

Today I am saved and I am delivered completely from the anger and rage that once plagued my life, it is gone, it’s is no longer apart of me.

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Can you imagine --- being made free from sin --- we became the servants of righteousness..

Roms 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

BUT NOW being made FREE FROM SIN you have BECOME THE SERVANT OF GOD.

Go and Sin no more

Hi Blayne, I am stepping back for a while from posting but I want to encourage you to keep posting. Many of the same questions that you have had in the past I also have had, I have came to many simmilar conclusions but as I read what you write it is very evident that you have much surpassed me.

I am getting much blessings from your post!!