A question about sin and our new nature?

I once was told by someone that since they were born again they never sin. Not that they don't actually sin in life. But, it is only their old nature and man which sins and since they are no longer the old man they never sin. The new nature which they have never sin and they are that new man therefore they never sin. Any thoughts?

The thing is, if you went before a court of law, for a crime, and said it wasn't you but your old nature, they'd have every right to lock you up and throw away the key, for being insane.

However, the word of God tells us that we are a new creation, old things have passed away..2 Cor 5v17.

If the old has passed, why do we still need or want to be involved with it?

There are a lot of lies around that Christians accept, because it fits well with their own desires, whether those desires are godly or not.

But, let us not be given over to deception or self-deception.

We have God's word, and it tells us we are without excuse, Rom 1v20.

God help us to be honest, with ourselves and God.

The truth of the matter is that our old sin nature has already been dealt with at the cross. When Christ died we died in Him. Now, we have been made a new creation in Christ Jesus, and we are to reckon ourselves dead unto sin and alive unto God. (Romans 6:6), (Romans 6:11)

A new Christian needs to be taught these facts from the beginning, so that he can know that it is not neccessary that he sins every day. He also needs to know that if he does sin, that there is an advocate that he can go to for cleansing, so that his fellowship can be restored. (1John 2:1)

There is always a possibility of a Christian walking after the flesh and sinning, but it is not something that is inevitable. A new Christian needs to know that not only is forgiveness of sin provided at salvation, but so is deliverance from sin.

The brother that said that he never sins since he became a Christian does not know himself. He will one day be tried and tested and find out that outside of Christ there is no good thing in him.

The cross of Christ must be taken up on a daily basis because there is always the possibility of walking after the flesh and sinning.

If we would walk in the Spirit 24 hours a day, seven days a week, then there would be no sin, but how many Christians are doing this? (Galatians 5:16).

Only Christ can keep us from falling. It is only by the grace of God that we can stand. The Word of God says that "Sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:14).

" For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:2).

Thanks you all for your replies and answers,

well here's the thing.

I don't think the doctrine was motivated by sin.

I think it was his logic.

He is not saying that he never sins in life.

But, that in real spiritual reality which really matters he never sins.

Because although his old man does sin his new man never does.

And since he is not any longer the old nature which sins he therefore no longer sins.

Now everything he does is perfect because his new nature which he is is perfect.

Even though his old nature does sin.

I also do not think he is a flagrant sinner.

So, that is what I am trying to figure out.

Now, a couple thoughts that I have had is:

Question
Well, if you are your new nature and it never sins then why does it not just take over and conquer the old man?

Answer
Because the new man is weak and the flesh takes over.

Question
Well why doesn't the new nature build itself up and take over since it's perfect?

Answer
No answer so far

We can sin, but we don't have to.
We may never sin again; John says this is the the reason that he wrote his first letter, but if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father...(1John 2:1)

paulmcg1 wrote:
Anonymity, it's a real pity that we're surrounded by lies on every side. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8).

1. This passage must always be looked at in context. The entire book of John must be consulted, especially verses 1:7-10, 2:1. Those who isolate this passage usually twist its meaning to be contrary to the rest of the epistle which is about moral perfection. The meaning of a verse is always lost or misunderstood when scripture isolation is practiced. The immediately surrounding context gives us much clarity into this verse.

2. The phrase, "have no sin" in verse 8 could mean two things. It could mean "have no sin" in your present conduct, or it could mean "have no sin" on your record. Verse 10 is very clear that John is talking about those who deny having any disobedience on their record by saying "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." None can deny that they have sinned or disobeyed in the past, but Christians can say that they presently obey God.

3. Verse 7 and 9 promise, not merely the pardon of sin, but also cleansing from sin. There is a proper distinction made between forgiveness and cleansing, “to forgive us our sins, AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” These passages promise not only forgiveness of sin but also freedom from sin. They promise freedom, not merely from some sins, but freedom from "all" sins, "to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness".

4. The man spoken of in verse 8 is the man who had not yet experienced verse 9. That is, the deceived man who denies having any sin is the one who has not yet confessed their sins, been forgiven of their sins, and has had their sins cleansed out of their life. Verse 8 is directed to, or specifically talking about, the man who has not yet been forgiven and cleansed as described in verse 9. Verse 9 is written as the solution to the sin described in verse 8.

5. If 1:8 means that nobody can state that Jesus Christ has cleansed them from all sin, then saying that you have experienced 1:9 makes you a liar. This interpretation of 1:8 would mean that believing 1:9 would make you “deceived”.

6. If "have no sin" means that no Christian can state as Paul did that we are presently "free from sin" (Romans 6:22), then John immediately contradicts his purpose as stated in 2:1, "these things write I unto you, that ye sin not." This interpretation would mean that John was writing this epistle so that we would “deceive ourselves” and so that “the truth” would not be “in us”. Why would John write them so that they “sin not” if when they believe that they “sin not” they are simply “deceived” without “the truth”?

7. If 1:8 means that you are a liar if you claim to presently keep God's commandments, then 2:3-4 is a total contradiction. These passages state that "we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." Such an interpretation would amount to this: if you claim to keep God's commandments, you are a liar and the truth is not in you (1:8), but if you claim to know God but do not keep His commandments, you are a liar and the truth is not in you (2:4). So the truth would not be in the one who claims to keep God's commandments, and the truth would not be in the one who says they know God yet breaks His commandments. Then the only logical conclusion would be that nobody knows God, if the Bible teaches that everyone presently breaks God’s commandments and you cannot know God if you presently break His commandments.

8. If 1:8 means that we all always have sin in our lives, then we do not "abideth in him" and have "not seen him, neither known him" according to 3:6, we are all "of the devil" according to 3:8, and we have not been born of God according to 3:9.

9. If 1:8 means that you are a liar if you state that you no longer break God's commandments, then the Apostle John is a liar because he says "we keep his commandments and do those things that are pleasing in his sight" in 3:22. According to the popular interpretation of 1:8, this would make the Apostle “deceived”, it would mean that the Apostle was without “the truth” because he claimed to “keep his commandments”.

10. The difference between the children of God and the children of the devil, is that the children of God do what is righteous, but the children of the devil commit sin, according to 3:8-10. This could not be a proper or accurate distinction if 1:8 means that everyone converted or not has present disobedience in their life.

11. The meaning of this passage is clear: If a man claims that they have never sinned, that they have no sin on their record, they are deceived. But if they confess that they have sinned, their sin can be both forgiven and cleansed out of their lives, so that they will walk in holiness and righteousness.

This doctrine of 2 natures existing at the same time in the christians is foreign to the New Testament teaching.Where in the bible does it say that old nature and the new nature live at the same time with the christian believer?

This dualistic teaching i believe came with Augustin to the church. Our nature is either depraved or holy there is no middle ground, even if that was possible for a christian two live with 2 natures inside him that teaching is carnal and not for mature christians.

"Question
Well, if you are your new nature and it never sins then why does it not just take over and conquer the old man?

Answer
Because the new man is weak and the flesh takes over.

Question
Well why doesn't the new nature build itself up and take over since it's perfect?

Answer
No answer so far."

Brother,

Even though all those that are born of the spirit have a new nature, the Word of God says that we must have our mind renewed. We must present our bodies unto God, which is the consecration of a Christian.

The believer is in the process of being sanctified. We believe unto the "saving of the soul."

John Wesley and his followers taught the doctrine of "instantaneous sancitification". This teaching known as the "second work of grace" states that the believer is sanctified in an instant of time. From God's side the believer is sanctified at salvation, but from our side, the Holy Spirit is working within us to conform us to the imgage and likeness of Christ, which is a process.

Our new nature is not just going to take over, because we are involved in the process. God has not taken our free will away, and we can still choose to yield our members to God or to unrighteousness. We can choose whether or not to set our minds on the things that are above, that which is pure and holy or think on the things which gratify the flesh. It is the Spirit of God and the Word of God that does the work of sanctification in us, but God needs our co-operation.

Mike

Elected,

the flesh wars against the spirit.

The old man wars with the new man.

The old man is still there, but needs to be continually put to death.

We have a war in our members.

Abideinhim,

so are you saying you agree with this teaching?

So we have a new nature which we are that never sins. We have still our old nature with us that we need to continually put to death though it is no longer who we are because of Christ. Then there is "us" in between and we can choose either? I mean if we are the new man then why would we ever choose the other.

I'm not sure a lot of people are understanding what I am trying to say since a lot of the answers did not deal directly...

elected wrote:

This doctrine of 2 natures existing at the same time in the christians is foreign to the New Testament teaching.Where in the bible does it say that old nature and the new nature live at the same time with the christian believer?

This dualistic teaching i believe came with Augustin to the church. Our nature is either depraved or holy there is no middle ground, even if that was possible for a christian two live with 2 natures inside him that teaching is carnal and not for mature christians.

Ephesians 4:22: “That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts.” Here is an exhortation not to sinners, but to a church. Certain expressions in this Epistle show beyond all question the spiritual condition of the members of the church. Paul says that they were “quickened” who had been “dead in trespasses and in sins;” that they were once “afar off,” but were now “made nigh by the blood of Christ;” that they were no more strangers and foreigners, but “fellow-citizens with the saints and of the household of God.” Still again, he tells them to forgive one another “even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you,” and a few verses after that states: “Ye were sometime darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light.”
These expressions undoubtedly declare the saved condition of the people to whom the apostle wrote. And yet to these who were “forgiven” and “light in the Lord” and “of the household of God” he writes: “Put off the old man.”

Could anything be plainer? Does not the reader see that something dark and evil is left in the heart of the regenerated man? That this something which is here called the “old man” is not to be pardoned, but taken away, put off,
removed.

This putting off is not a process it's a one time event one day the old man is there the next day the old man is gone.

The old man has been crucified on the cross with Christ and we should recken ouselves dead to sin.
'Put off old man' says paul and 'put on the new man', he does not say, 'put aside you old man' or 'your old man will live with your new man'.

We all are called to christian maturity and a life free from intentional sin. Christ has provided for us a full salvation on the Cross.He is our justification, sanctification and redemption.

We are called to be spiritual men not carnal man. A spiritual man recoken himself dead to sin and Christ in Him is the fountain of Life. Out of him flow rivers of living water, he is transformed from one degree of glory to another degree of glory by the grace of God. He is partaker of the devine nature.He lives in a dayly union with God.He obeys the two greatest commandments, loving God with whole of his heart..ect and loving his neighbour as himself.
He knows that without Christ living in him, he will be the worst of sinners. If he detects sin in his heart he will be quick to confess it and be cleased in the blood of the Lord.

Paul was a spiritual man, he lived what he preached, his nature was regenerated, pure, sanctified. He was a man filled with the Holy Spirit.He was one of the most holy men and still he considered himself chief of sinners.

After i have discribed the spiritual man or a godly man like Paul, does anyone think that Paul in his christian maturity had two natures living in him at the same time?

Brothers these is a contradiction to believe that
we always will have two natures living in us even if are spiritual or mature believers like Paul. Its not God's will that we drink from 2 sources, 1 bitter and 1 sweet. Our sweet source is Jesus, he gives the water of Life.

Our nature is deprived and evil and we have fallen short of the glory of God, but thanks be to God who has provided for us such a glorious salvation in Jesus Christ to sanctifiy as wholy: spirit, soul and body.

Even our mortal bodies one day will be redeemed.

Who is the Author of our faith Jesus, who is the One who will save us to the uttermost Jesus, Who is the One who delivered us from the power of sin and washes us from all sin Jesus and his all-powerful blood.

Im far from being that spiritual person, God have mercy on me but i strive to be one.

I believe its God will that we should be partakers of devine nature and bear fruit and be christlike. Christ in us is the hope of glory, he is our Vine and we our the branches, he is our Head and We are his Body.

Elected said:
The old man has been crucified on the cross with Christ and we should recken ouselves dead to sin.
'Put off old man' says paul and 'put on the new man', he does not say, 'put aside you old man' or 'your old man will live with your new man'.

You missed it Elected Paul in Ephesians is writing to Christians he says to them "put off the old man".

If we are born of the Spirit then we are spiritual, and how can we be carnal?

Know if the reader of this post is honest with himself you will confess that there is a something at work in you. That something in you has been dethroned it does not have dominion over you it may fight, tempt, seduce, war in you that but it does not rule over you.

Romans 7:21 This something is a law unto itself, the law of sin it urges action that are
in accordance with its own nature. What distinguishes the law of sin though is that it is an inbred law, an inner law it is indwelling. As such it abides in the soul and therefore it is able to apply itself. Sin possesses the very faculties of the soul, the mind, will, and affections, those faculties that drive all that we do. And that means there is no escaping this law thats why Paul states in Heb 12:1 the sin which doth so easily beset us.

In the regenerated life we are both carnal and spiritual. This was said of the Galatian church which had the “flesh” (carnal mind ) and the “Spirit” lusting against each other in their hearts this is the law of sin at work.

The same thing is stated in regard to the Corinthians whom Paul designates as “babes in Christ,” hence born of God, but adds, “ye are carnal.” why because the law of sin is at work.

This dark, troubling something within us is not the remains of our actual sins and personal guilt, but the inherited sin (evil nature) with which we began life. It is something that cannot be pardoned, it cannot be regenerated. It is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be, and so awaits not an impartation of life, but a movement of destruction and death.

There is lot of misunderstanding on this subject simply because of terminology. We need to have an understanding what we are talking about when we refer to "old man", "new man", "sin nature", "flesh", "new creation".

It is very helpful to have a basic understand of spirit, soul, and body when dealing with the nature of man before and after the new birth.

When a person is born again, it is the spirit of man that becomes the new creation or new man in Christ Jesus. The spirit of man recieves the life of Christ, and a new creation is formed. Prior to this the man was seperated from God and was dead in his trespasses and sins. A man that is not saved is either being controlled by his self life or by his body and usually both. A Christian should be controlled by the Holy Spirit, but many are living out of their soul, and a Christian that allows the body to have dominion in their lives is carnal and walks after the flesh. (2Corinthians 5:17), (Ephesians 2:1-3), (1Corinthians 3:1-4).

With the new birth the spirit of man is made alive unto God and the Holy Spirit dwells within the spirit of the man. This spirit man is to have dominance over the soul and body of man. The spirit of man, full of the Holy Spirit should be in ascendancy. (Ephesians 3:16,17). (Galatians 5:16).

At the new birth, the soul of man, which is the mind, will, and emotions, is affected in varying degrees. The problem with many Christians continuing in sin after being born again is usually from either a lack of knowledge of who they are in Christ, and who Christ is in them, or disobedience to the light that they have. It is the will of God that a Christian would be wholly sanctified - spirit, soul, and body. (1Thessalonians 5:23).

The soul of man is the self life, and this self life is to be denied so that the life of Christ that is in the spirit of man can come forth. Unless the one grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies it abides alone, but if it dies, it will bring forth much fruit. Those that seek to save their life (self life) will loose the (higher life) that God intends for us to walk in. Those that loose their life (self life) will find the abundant life that is availabe for every believer. (Luke 9:23,24), (John 12:24).

If God really has His way with us and we surrender to Him, there is going to be more of Him and less of us.

Mike

AbideinHim wrote:

If God really has His way with us and we surrender to Him, there is going to be more of Him and less of us.

If God really has his way with us the we will die then and only then are we freed from sin that indwells.

Paul tells us that the "body of sin" is to be "destroyed." And this is not to be done at death, for he says immediately after that we should no longer "serve sin." It is to be done in life, that we may present a holy and blameless life to the world.

Rom 6:20 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

There is not a more fearful and certain mode of death known on earth than that of the cross. The crucified man is bound to die.

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Paul states clearly "He that is dead is free from Sin" This blows up the whole romantic idea of "more on him less of me" no if God has his way in your life he will bring you to the cross, and on that cross you will die.

After the cross you find that you'll live, but it's not you that lives but Christ that lives in you.

It is my opinion that scripture teaches plainly that we are a three part being, spirit, soul, and body. When Nicodemus came to Jesus by night (John 3), he became a little confused at Jesus statement that he must be born again. He was focused on the body alone. Jesus had to teach him that it was his spirit that was born again. That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of spirit is spirit. I believe that our "nature" is bound up in our spirit. I also believe that our spirit is the part of us that is truly who we are. So, when we are born again, our spirit is the part of us that is a totally new creation. 2 Cor. 5:17. I believe our soul is that part of us comprised of mind, will, and emotion. It is the part that Paul said must be renewed in Romans 12:2. This is where the progressive work of walking out sanctification takes place. Our body is simply the house of flesh we live in.

Understanding this is key, I believe, to understanding several passages such as the apparent contradiction found in the first three chapters of 1 John. 2 Corinthians 5:21 tells us that because Jesus became sin for me, I have been made the very righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. I have become a son of God. 1 John 3:2, Romans 8:17. Now it is obvious that this has not happened in my body. And, I still wrestle with what I call the flesh(the soul part of man) because it has been programmed with a lot of ungodly stuff and I am in process of renewing my mind. But, in my spirit, I am perfected forever Hebrews 10:14.

So what does this all mean? Well, there is no duality of natures first of all. Some would say that in Romans 7, Paul is describing the "white dog and black dog" scenario. Not so. He is describing the futility of trying to live up to
God's standards by keeping the law and sums it up by saying that it is only through Jesus that he would be delivered from the body of this death (the law is often referred to as a ministration of death and is the topic that Paul has been dealing with up to this point in Romans).

It is possible for me to commit sins. I think I can say pretty confidently that my own death or the coming of Christ back to earth are the only two events that are going to assure that I will never sin again. But, that action of sin did not cause me to somehow become contaminated in my spirit. It did not cause me to lose my salvation. (a quick aside. Before anyone thinks I am saying that it is impossible to lose salvation, that is not what I am saying. Scripture clearly lays out the manner in which I may do that, but it is not by committing an action of sin. See Hebrews 4, Hebrews 6, Hebrews 10, ) But, if I have been born again, my reaction should be an immediate burden from the spirit that I have violated, and an immediate repentance on my part.

I think understanding that I have a new nature is vital to reckoning myself dead indeed unto sin, and alive unto God. How can I be dead to sin if there is still in me that nature of sin? It is vital to my ability to overcome the condemnation of the enemy and in my ability to walk in victory over sin. Once I have been purged by the blood of Jesus, I should have no more conscience of sin. I don't live with consciousness of sin in me, I live with a consciousness that I have been made righteous by the shed blood of Jesus. I need to understand who I am in Christ. I can tell you from my own experience, this one revelation has done more to launch me into a life of holiness and obedience and denying the flesh than any other thing has ever done.

I must decrease, He must increase. The only place He can increase is in my soul/mind. My spirit is now the Spirit of Christ, the whole bucket of Grace "If I don't have the Spirit of Christ I am none of His. By His Spirit in me, that portion of my being is perfect. This body of flesh has been quickened to hold the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit teacher and even where the Father makes His "abode" with Christ in me. This body of flesh still has the, what I call programed body pulls. These body pulls say, this is what you have programed me to do in the flesh and I want to keep them just as they are. The renewing of our mind/soul, says no, the flesh says yes. Sometimes the flesh wins, but more and more the renewed mind/soul can say no and win the battle. By the Holy Spirit Teacher showing what the Spirit of Christ in me, in His image, which I am becoming more and more like Him, line upon line and precept upon precept.

When the flesh falls, Like Paul, I can proclaim in being set free from this body of death, Through Christ Jesus my Lord, I am becoming the image of Christ that God has birthed me to be in by His incorruptable Seed that is in me. One resurrection day it will be complete and I truly will be the son of God that the "Christ in me, the Hope of Glory" is presenting all those in Christ prefect to the Father and so shall we ever be with the Lord, my fellow brothers and sisters.

Freed from the programed body pulls, by the Advocate with the Father, upon confession, God is faithful ad Just to forgive me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness because of the Cross and the Christ He has rebirthed in me, to give me new life in Christ. No more condemnation for those in Him. It is Christ as me, not me as Christ, for He truly is my Spirit and Life giver.

In Christ: Phillip

Twayneb - You made some very good points in your post.

The believer does not have to sin, but sin is always a possibility, and it is dangerous to believe that we have arrived at sinless perfection no matter how spiritual we think that we are. We must stay watchful and daily have faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ reckoning ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God. Like someone said so well that the problem with living sacrifices is that they have the tendency to climb off the altar.

Mike

Mike

I agree. Living sacrifices are the type that have sacrificed themselves of their own will, and that is where the problem comes in. When the fire gets a little hot, I am always faced with the choice of crawling off the altar, or submitting and having another part of what I used to be burned out of me, which can be a bit painful at times. The result of staying on the altar is always glorious.

I believe someone said that Augustine brought in the idea of dual nature. I am not sure, but I agree with Phillip and some of the others on this thread that the old man, the old nature if you will, is gone and we are become totally new creatures with new natures. We just have to realize that the flesh is still around. Look very carefully at 1 Corinthians. Paul is writing to a people whom he says are sanctified. He calls them hagios (holy or saints), and yet shortly thereafter he says they are carnal. Carnal simply means of the flesh or fleshly. These people who were possessors of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) were walking in their flesh and allowing their old patterns of thinking and doing to govern them, separating themselves along lines of various teachers. (Some may even say a form of denominationalism.)

This tells me that even though I have received a new nature, I am still very capable of allowing my mind, will, and emotions to govern rather than my born again spirit. Galatians 5, Paul speaks to the church at Galatia, a people who had been born again. In chapter 5 he gives a great example of what I am talking about. Walk in the spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. It is not a battle of two natures. It is a battle between a new nature and an unrenewed mind. We can see great transformation as our mind is renewed. I think that is good part of what happens as we come into what we often call spiritual maturity. Our own mind, will, and emotions come more and more into alignment with the word of God.

I guess at this point it would be a good time to share a testimony. It starts with me walking out of the only church I had attended since I have known God. Now because of various reason and much praying which I won't go into here I decided to leave.

I had just crossed the street after leaving the church for the last time. I prayed Father, I know what you spoke to me about.........(My Calling), I believe what you have said, I don't know how you'll do it but I believe you'll do it. Mid step the Holy Spirit spoke to me "you'll be like Job". This as you can imagine was not what I wanted to hear.

Five years later in back slidden state while I was working in West Africa there I caught a viral infection this infection causes blisters to appear on the skin.

I needed to hear from God and decided to Fast and Pray. After my time of fasting and praying ended it was around the same time I was going back to work, I had this question in my head "what makes a great man of God great". So I went searching the internet to find out about the men of god to get a insight into their lives, I came across Duncan Campbell’s testimony on sermon index and (that's how I became a member on here) downloaded it onto my IPod to listen to it on the plane.

After having my meal the light was dimmed I got out my IPod and started to listen to Duncan's Testimony when I got to the point where Duncan says "Go for God whatever it takes" these words cut through me with tears streaming down my face I went to the toilet got on my knees (As best I could in a small toilet) and prayed. The sobs and tears just kept on coming I asked God to help me.

For my whole month while in Africa every time I had on my own with God he turned up all I seemed to able to do was weep. During this time God had been talking to me about Holiness and the need to be Holy, he should me that there was a system still in me that needs to be removed. This system is evil and it’s so wrapped up in your personality that you believe it's you, the reason you are who you are is because of this system, it controls, it manipulates, it lies, and it affects every part of you, your mind, your will and emotions.

When I got back to Scotland, I got a book from a woman who had not put it to print yet it was called Revival the Call of Holiness this was God confirming to me what had been speaking to me about in Africa.

From there I have started studying and reading up on the subject. I AM NOT sanctified (Made Holy) yet no but my faith level are increasing as I study the subject of Holiness.

twayneb said:
It is my opinion that scripture teaches plainly that we are a three part being, spirit, soul, and body. When Nicodemus came to Jesus by night (John 3), he became a little confused at Jesus statement that he must be born again. He was focused on the body alone. Jesus had to teach him that it was his spirit that was born again.

I believe this to when we are born again it's a our spirit that's Born Again. Paul mentions the Spirit, Souls and Body in 1 Thessalonians 5:23.

Rom 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law.

Paul declares in his "inner being" think about it spirit, soul and body. Which ones in the "inner being" your spirit is your "inner being" that’s what is born again your inner being your spirit. But this leaves another two areas Soul and Body.

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 Paul says he seen a mystery in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. He says the corruptible must put on in-corruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. This the time when we are Glorified this when flesh and blood changes.

So this leaves one area of the Spirit, Soul and Body and that’s the Soul, the word “Soul” is defined by some as the mind, will, emontions. The Soul is really what most people call the “personality.” This is the area that needs Sanctified because this is the area where inherited depravity still affects you. In your Soul, old things did not pass away, and all things haven’t yet become new.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

1. I will give you a new heart
2. And put a new spirit in you
3. I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh
4. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

Back to the spirit what does the Spirit in you do "moves us to follow the law and it's careful to keep them." What did Paul say in Rom 7:22 for in my inner being I delight in God's law. Why did Paul say that because God put that Spirit in him and that what God said in Ezekiel 36:26-27 that the Spirit will do and that is further proof that Paul was talking about inner man was the Spirit

Remember God through Ezekiel makes a difference between the heart and the spirit and it is a two step process.

Two step process
1. Regeneration
2. Sanctification

Regeneration comes for the Spirit and Sanctification for the heart (Soul) this second work is done by the Holy Spirit.

Acts 15:8-9 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

The Holy Spirit comes as fire and cleanses the heart (soul) and makes you Holy.

Know I am getting into area I don't want to go just yet. How can we claim to have the Holy Spirit and not live Holy Lives we seem to have run off chasing the Gifts of the Spirit but have forgotten all about Holiness and God has let us do it? Is this what we are warned about in 2 Timothy 3:5 having a form of godliness but deny the power, I don't know so I will leave it alone for the time being.

Peter does not say he gave them the Holy Spirit and they talked in tounges, no he gave them the Holy Spirit and he purified their hearts.

Edit:- Made a mistake there

I for myself admit that i dont know completely myself and little do i know Christ. God is the one who knows us better than we know ourselves.
Sin is a mystery of iniquity and sin is lawlessness and to make things worse we have inheret a fallen nature with a mortal body.The effects of Adam original sin have brought spiritual and physical death and alienated us from God.

I have read some of the posts here from my brothers in Christ and it makes me aware that we are dealing with deep issues that need wisdom and revelation by the Holy Spirit. Im sure that most of us here have honest desires to follow Christ and love Christ as our Lord & Saviour.
Our experiences if we come to an honest evaluation & confession are not often according to that high standard required of us in the Sermon on the mount. Descipleship is a life of self-denial and total surrender (or abandonement) to God, its a life of continual obidience to God as we depend on Jesus to be our all in all.We have to die daily, and bear the cross and follow Him. To be saved all we need is repent and trust Jesus as our Lord and Saviour ( included here is to belief that he died on the cross for our sins and rose from the dead the 3rd day), but to be a disciple there is a condition 'if' to be fulfilled.

Without having any desire to debate or for controversy, my aim is to understand to my best the word of God concerning our regenarated and sanctified state & nature after we have believed. Most of us come with prejudices from our religious background or with theological leaning when we read the Word of God. It is clear that often we miss the mark and get lost in theological chaos of man made systems and water down the word of God or try to interprete it according to our experience.

I have a question? Has Christ provided for us a full salvation? And what does that mean? Our we to live the rest of our live with a dual nature (sinful & holy at the same time?)If Christ has destroyed the works of the devil of the cross and overcame the ennemy for us, why do we have this fatalist philosophy that we will never get rid of indweling sin in our life? That our nature is so totaly depraved that even Christ on the cross could not completly redeem it. That there is no eradication of sin and purification of the heart provided for us on the cross?

This is not selfish & sinless perfection im talking about, im talking about Jesus being all in all in us, im talking about him being our life and sanctification and that He is able to save us to the uttermost. Im talking about this higher & deeper life that is the priviledge of every child of God. Life that is in constant transformation by the grace of God fromone degree of glory to another degree of glory. As not having already attained but aming higher for God and progressing in our walk of faith.

elected wrote:

I have a question? Has Christ provided for us a full salvation? And what does that mean? Our we to live the rest of our live with a dual nature (sinful & holy at the same time?)If Christ has destroyed the works of the devil of the cross and overcame the ennemy for us, why do we have this fatalist philosophy that we will never get rid of indweling sin in our life? That our nature is so totaly depraved that even Christ on the cross could not completly redeem it. That there is no eradication of sin and purification of the heart provided for us on the cross?

I hope this one verse helps answer yor questions.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

[url=http://www.fullbooks.com/The-Master-s-Indwelling1.html]The Masters Indwelling by Andrew Murray[/url]

[url=http://www.enterhisrest.org/entry_directions/seekers_full_salvation_print.pdf]Seekers of Full Salvation[/url]