What do you think about this word about the end times?

I would likke to comment on that video. I have been going to IHOP for six months now. Many of you on this site know where I am coming from. I can only say that time and time again I have been blessed there. Mike Bickle actually does not preach all that often, but every time he has, I have been greatly blessed. And I am sure many out there know of past associations and things that would give them pause to stop and think, and I would agree about the stoping and the pausing and the thinking, yet I can only report what I have saw and heard over a six month period. Amangst that particulary group, I have to say that they are among the most aware of the present day state, the lateness of the hour and the neccesity of not doing "business as usual." This particular video I found to be a blessing and a witness in my spirit.......Frank

White_STONE,

You have lived a very sheltered life if you think that was theatrics :) LOL Many of the featured sermons on this site has way more theatrics :) I do think that many men have genuine passion and its not theatrical, Keith Daniel's would be one such preacher. Ian Paisley would be another, there are too many to mention.
Yes, the man in this video was theatrical.......Frank

"What do you think about this word about the end times?"...anonymity

I have an association with Mike Bickle also; and was a part of the prayer movement there, and lived there also, in the early 90's. I shared this with Mike, in a limited way, but clearly a few years ago.

I trust Mike as a man of integrity, but do not agree with many of his monastic creations. I do believe, however, that he has a revelatory and apostolic calling yet to be lived in his life.

This is what I think is coming. Mike saw a part of it. as I did.

Justice and Glory

by Thomas Watkins

If this were my very last article that I ever wrote, or last encouragement, or warning, before my death, this would be it. It is the most valuable thing that I have to give, to serve the body of Christ. We must be prepared for the holocaust that is riding these winds of judgment, and realize that this is from the Lord Jesus. We are waking up, even those of us who love slumber.

Over many years, the Lord has given me several interlocking revelations about His church in America. One important piece of that is THE END OF THE AMERICAN DREAM! The Lord spoke that phrase, and revealed to me it would center around a “greed mortgage craze”, and there would be massive homelessness from the middle class, and riot like anger within the black and minority community. This was in 2003. A HOLY COMPANY WOULD THEN APPEAR. HERE:

http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2009/01/03/guest-author-the-end-of-the-american-dream/

But this is only a small portion of what we can expect to come, both in Glory, and in Judgment.

The end of the American dream is about the holiest company ever assembled in this country, emerging within the greatest financial judgment ever to be in this country. There are two types of judgment. One has Mercy mixed in with it; a type of discipline that gives way to the possibility of repentance, of turning back to God’s way, away from our own, and being restored, healed by our tender Father. Most of judgment is in this vein, because the Father is most merciful and gracious, and desires all to come to Him. He takes no pleasure in the death and destruction of the wicked. This financial judgment has mercy mixed in it, and God is leaving space for the Church, and America to repent, and believe.

The other type of judgment is a judgment when all mercies are depleted.

This is called Wrath. Consider Jeremiah’s many, many, ignored pleadings with Jerusalem, and then one of them was his last; for the Babylonian warriors broke through the wall and proceeded to rape, murder and plunder; and not even sparing the toddlers and infants. It was a holocaust; a horror beyond thought; but it was real. One could argue that America was once the cradle of the FREE church of our Lord, maybe foremost in all of the Earth…in the days of her youth. If we have not become the “Great Whore who sits upon many waters”, I assure you that we are a part of her.

We despise Jesus, we mock Him, and MOST of our churches have a mere form of Christianity, but reject the power to become agents of His love and mercy. We are enamored with our own happiness, and promote our wills and lives. God has turned her over to the wolves. “The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?”

The Lord is defining Apostasy here. This is the “what” and “how” of why People fall away. God’s people have fell in love with their own lives. God has become an inconvenience, a burden, a slave master; and they will resist bending to Him or ANYONE, over their dead bodies. THE ONLY MINISTERS THAT THEY ACCEPT ARE THE ONES THAT SPEAK OF PEACE AND PROSPERITY! We are seeing a flood of sorcerers and magicians and Usurpers that would be unimaginable 10 years ago; and our “Main Line” churches too! A form of godliness wrapped in dead form; Void of the Spirit, yet glorying in doctrine and political correctness.This is why America as a country is being judged. “If the salt has lost it’s saltiness, WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR?” “TO BE CAST UPON THE DUNGHILL!”

That’s wrath; utter rejection derived from utter rebellion. In 2001, I was caught up in the Spirit with the Lord. It was a though I was traveling around the Earth with Jahweh; sailing high above, and watching the continents below. There were no rivers, cities, or wilderness; only a massive wheat field. The sun was shining, the wheat shimmered in a gentle wind. The wheat was mature and golden; the sky was a Robin’s egg blue. It completely covered every bit of surface on these continents; the inhabited ones. Out of the substance of the Earth and the Sun and the Wheat the Lord Spoke; “IT’S HARVEST TIME!”... the vision ended.

For years I had misconceptions of the harvest as being a time of worldwide sweeping revival. I now know that it is not. The Harvest is the “End of the AGE!” The Harvest is the time of exposure, of light revealing and separating the darkness. The Harvest is a time of separation; a time when the evil look alike wheat is exposed for what it really is. POISON!

Matthew 13; verses: 24Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25″But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. 26″But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. 27″The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28″And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ 29″But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30′Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”

Remember this; “and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the HARVEST IS THE END OF THE AGE!”; and the reapers are angels.”..vs:39

WE ARE SOON TO ENTER TRIBULATION. We are now experiencing the very beginning of the birth Pains of it. I will now share a very troubling set of visions that I was given, about the wrath part. I was shown the INVASION of AMERICA by foreign armies. In the first vision, I was in the Spirit, and was peering through the reeds, on a bluff above the ocean, on American Soil.

I heard a terrifying thunder of a massive and numerous army marching. I heard the cadence of boots marching in step, so many that the earth shook. I trembled, yet I watched on. Out of the ocean, close to my hiding spot in the reeds, a foreign army arose right out of the sea. These were foot soldiers, dressed in the camouflage stripes of another nation. They all had back packs, and assault weapons, but were staged to fight light, and mobile. They were terrifying in their sheer numbers and power.

A voice spoke to me over my right shoulder; a voice that I know. It was the voice of God, the Lord Jesus. He just said; “20 million.” I understood that this was the number of the invading army. I understood that they were an occupying and an invading army; and there goal was to blitzkrieg to the heart of the cities in overwhelming numbers, and once there, they would be impregnable. Once inside of a city, with perhaps 500,000 men, we would be helpless. This would of course be a sneak attack; and would happen suddenly.

The corresponding vision I had several years before, was about an AIR WAR, on American soil, for AIR superiority before the main body is set to advance. This was near the exact area that I saw the armies rise. I saw a bombing war, with multitudes of attack planes. I saw the enemy with waves and waves ; and when we think we have a chance, another and another wave of fighters and bombers dive in. I watched this war for a very, very long time, and as I saw it continue, I watched a very small object spinning out of the war, towards me. It was a tree, and as it approached me, it became larger and larger until I saw that it was a tree sent from God. It was covered perfectly in most beautiful leaves; It was, “The tree for healing for all nations” spoken of in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

It is maturity in the Church. It is Jesus Himself alive in this end times Church, right here in America. The day is coming, when we will no longer be impotent, and lackadaisical. Healing, and power over all of the work of the enemy will be deeds that are commonplace, and it will be the day of instant fruit the Amos prophesied of, when the treader of grapes would be overcome by he who sows the seed. It will be the fullness of Jesus in His bride; It will be the Overcoming church; the Remnant Bride that has endured to the end, that loved Jesus more than her own way, her own life.

The very sad thing about this, is imminent judgment that must come. I believe that prior to this invasion we will be nuked, along with every military base in the world, and every nuclear ship, and missile base. I believe that this will primarily occur on the East coast, and some cities in the west. The Midwest will be left for food production. I was not shown this by the Lord; this is my own judgment, but I believe that this horror will leave 100 MILLION Americans dead before the end….TWO FOR ONE, FOR EVERY INNOCENT LIFE MURDERED THROUGH ABORTION! This is Wrath on the unrepentant. I saw this invasion take place on the TEXAS COASTLINE and New Orleans area, on the same path as KATRINA.

It will be a time of horror, hand in hand with the Glory of the ages.

This is me; I was not shown this by the Lord, but I believe when this happens, we will be very close to the MIDDLE of this Great Tribulation. There will be 42 months, at least, to go. Jesus will rescue Israel, and the believers in all of the world then. We will then begin our eternity, as will the many damned, who hate God and his Christ.

I want to give you some signs upon the way, that the Lord has shown me.

I saw the company of real messengers, Apostles, that the Lord has ordained for America. They are broken and filled with holiness, and possessed with more authority that man could imagine. They hate the usurpers, nicolaitans, and false apostles like the NAR and such, and will lay their lives down for the least of the brethren, whoever that those may be. They are filled with humility and love.

One of the signs that they have manifested is when we see, “AN AMERICAN BAND OF MARTYRS”…These will be saints that will go in the face of death and martyrdom to carry the gospel to foreign shores. They will be butchered, and slaughtered, but behind them many more will follow, and this will be a pleasing aroma before the Lord. When you see and read of this, then you will know that real Godly apostles are here too, to shepherd the American flock through this tribulation and unto Jesus alone.

The second sign will be harder to perceive, but just as real.

We will begin to see saints that we would consider dead, destroyed and fallen away, restored. Many of them will have been wounded in the current WAR in the church, between an emerging humanist-new age gospel and “apostle” mindset that denies the CROSS, both as Jesus as the only way to God, and the cross that the individual MUST bear DAILY, as he dies to himself, to lives to God, and learns how to love. People that you would not imagine, will return to the Love of Jesus, and become a blaze for God. It will be amazing, similar to Ezekiel’s “DRY BONES” vision…right here, in America.

There are TEN Virgins: All wake up, but all don’t survive. What is the keystone for the survivors?, and what did the victims of blindness lack? Oil for the lamps. It is the Holy Spirit flowing in relationship with He who stands among the candlesticks. Everyone assumed they possessed it, but really only some did. This is the most important possession in your entire life, even for Eternity. Do you fellowship with Jesus? Do you know Him? Do you worship Him, in Spirit and in truth, or do you just have an idea of that, or a form of that? Only one thing we will possess in this soon coming trouble is FAITH, a quiet assurance that we know Him who we have rested our soul upon.

Hebrews 11 33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35 Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection; 36 and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were)put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated 38 (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground. 39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

This was not written apart from us, even today, and it is more than a historical encouragement, it is a code, a living testament about how true saints will react to extreme hardship and persecution. Do not be deceived into thinking that a farm in Idaho or a large storehouse will succor you in this time. It will not, and you will be very disappointed. As then, as now, Only a living faith in Jesus, sustained by daily bread, will enable you to endure unto the end; and the end for some of us will surely be martyrdom.

I see the church as a resurrected remnant; a little flock. I see her in twos and threes, where glory falls as well in many, many home churches and personal groups where real relationship will and is able to be cultured. We are now yet in a time of grace where we all can repent, and return to our first loves; where we can determine a life “All for Jesus, No matter the COST!…We have space, but I promise you as I warn you; THE DOOR IS CLOSING!

Also, there is yet space where we can pray for America. Will she repent? Probably not, but Abraham wasn’t slowed up for SODOM, before the Lord with that probability, was he? It is possible that the number of that occupying force and army may be diminished, but not without repentance. Remember Nineveh.

We will need each other much more in the future, and Jesus most of all.

We will seek him continually in these times of trouble, and it is written; “The Lord has NEVER forsaken ANY who seek after Him.” This is the difference in having oil for your lamps, and being left without it, in the most dire of nights. Jesus is Lord and Creator, and Satan, and every one of his devil angels that followed him, are nothing, and less than nothing before His glorious power. They are together less than a drop falling into a cavernous 55 gallon drum, and united less than a match head of chaff, in a forest fire. Jesus is but using the devil, and anti-Christ, to prove his purposes, and His faithful, and His Faithfulness. when Jesus is done using him, he will be cast headlong into the lake of fire, where he will burn for eternity, along with his brother angels….[ AND ALL OF THE HUMAN LOST..] We are also a part of this trial, that will encompass the entire earth. We overcome by faith.

“BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB, THE WORD OF OUR TESTIMONY, AND BY NOT LOVING OUR OWN SELF LIVES, EVEN UNTO DEATH!”

John said, in Revelation, “Your brother, in tribulation and patience.” That’s how it has to be.

* brother Tom Watkins

I am totally persuaded by Pastor Mike Bickle 's teaching

That's a dangerous place to be.

Me, I am totally persuaded by the [b]Word of God[/b], not some dude.

Years ago when I first arrived at this forum we discussed "teachers" like Bickle, IHOP, MorningStar, Rick Joyner, The Latter Rain Movement, Manifest Sons of God doctrine, Bob Jones (the so-called prophet, not the college), etc etc.

Many of us showed them to be the false teachers that they are... using their own words and comparing them to the teachings of the Word of God.

They are not prophets, especially Bob Jones... who I was personally "prophecied" over when I was deceived and into all of that junk.

I'll not sit in judgement of their salvation, but I will certainly weigh their teachings and so-called prophecies against the Word of God.

They have been weighed and shown to be lacking.

Whenever I hear ANYONE say "I am totally persuaded by so-and-so's teaching" I just cringe!!

[b]NO NO NO!![/b] Be fully convinced of the teachings of the Bible! Not some dude!

Wake up!

Krispy

The first time I ever heard a teaching by Mike Bickle, the Holy Spirit bore witness with my spirit.

Interject the name "Joseph Smith" into that sentence and this is [b]exactly[/b] what the Mormons say.

And by the way, brother, I have studied Bickle's teaching... I used to be a student of his teachings, and Joyner, etc. We used to belong to a Morning Star associated church. I've met Bickle and sat under his teachings.

You say: "just because Mike Bickle has associated himself with certain men that are questionable does not make him a false prophet."

I say: Who is lacking in discernment?

You say: "I have seen these accusations made repeatedly by certain individuals who lack discernment and are in league with the accuser of the brethren."

I say: thats a cheap way to shut up anyone who you disagree with. Call them names, accuse them of lacking discernment, and call them satanic.

Instead of debating the issues, doctrines, whatever... you simply call people names.

Way to go.

Notice I called Bickle a false teacher, which sincerely believe him to be. I did not call him names, did not question his salvation. Did not call his followers names.

Unlike you... who generalized anyone who may disagree with you, called them names, said they were in league with Satan (i.e. judged their very salvation), etc.

That's just wrong and [b]sinful[/b] on so many different levels.

Krispy

I agree... unfortunately I do not have time today to go into it all. It has been discussed previously to the point of nausia on this forum and is available for all to research. I recommend people avail themselves of all that has been discussed simply by searching.

My main point here tho is that people who support their favorite minister/prophet can not handle any criticism of their hero. When doctrines or prophecies are questioned... instead of honest discussions about it... they turn to name calling, judgmentalism and bating.

This ought not to be.

Krispy

We should never debate with flame throwers. There is a sickness in todays modern society and it is tearing the fabric of it apart, led by well known pundits who enrich themselves by trading in hatred. A large part of the professing Christian movement have been swept up in it because it appeals to their philosophy. We then find that they debate their "brothers," with the same venom of their favorite pundits that they watch for endless hours. So, putting all that aside, I agree that any time you are dealing with anyone who calls themselves a prophet, extreme caution should be applied. Many of the people that have been associated with Mike Bickle should be avoided like the plague. Having said that, I have been attending IHOP for several months now, having gone there against my will, being led there by the Lord. I have been continually blessed by powerful sermons that have been right on the money. In all those times I have only heard Mike Bickle speak a few times in those six months, but have been blessed every time I have heard him. To say anything else would just not be true. The only time I have felt uncomfortable was when Lou Engle has spoken. Nothing unscriptural was said by him, but alarm bells ring in my spirit as I listen to him. Anyway, as I said before, the people that I have heard, including Alan Hood, have a firm grasp on the fact that the time is short. While most of the so called church is asleep at the wheel, this group of people at least understand the times in which they live. When I hear false prophecy and unscriptural teaching, I will be glad to share it with you guys, but not so far............Frank

Frank... no doubt the time is short, I'm with ya there.

But dont you think this strange mixing of error w/ truth is a dangerous thing? Does Bickle issue any warning to the hearers of these people that you admit should be avoided like the plague... as you put it?

Let's say for a moment that I didn't have an issue with any of Bickle's teachings. Don't you think it strange that he would choose to associate himself with rogues? Don't you think that by him not saying anything about the error that he does associate himself with is in effect promoting, even condoning the errors?

Can't have it both ways. We are commanded in scripture to [b]seperate[/b] ourselves from error. In scripture is says to [b]mark[/b] (point out, warn) and [b]avoid[/b] (seperate, not willing join together with) those who teach false doctrine. We're not even to bid them "godspeed" or let them inside our houses!

So even if I did agree with Bickles teachings... he is clearly disobeying scripture by willingly uniting with those who are clearly false teachers, and not issuing warnings about their teachings.

Krispy

"My main point here tho is that people who support their favorite minister/prophet can not handle any criticism of their hero. When doctrines or prophecies are questioned... instead of honest discussions about it... they turn to name calling, judgmentalism and bating." krispy

Amen. Anyone who 'passed judgment' on a Paul Cain or a Bob Jones would have been treated in similar fashion. Their bad fruit bore them out eventually but there were warnings beforehand. There's a certain amount of integrity involved in coming clean with past connections and condemning the practice of those who are false and fallen. Bickle has cited Paul Cain in prophesy before as I used to have it on tape.... my mother in law kept pushing the IHOP prophets on me with tapes and books. According to Bickle, the prophecy went something like this:

"there will be a new day ahead when there will be no news but GOOD NEWS. Paul Cain said that he had a vision of a news anchor and this anchor started the news with 'there is no news to report but good news'." "He (Paul Cain) said that 'stadium Christianity' will be upon us where we will be filling stadiums to worship God instead of having entertainment events".

Now I paraphrased alot of this but after listening to this tape of Bickle I looked up Paul Cain as I had never heard of him before. Needless to say, I found out all I needed to know on Paul Cain and his backround. This 'good news', from what I gathered at that time was the typical 'feel good', 'good news', Gospel that some preachers have staunchly come against. Bickle has managed to stay out of the 'prophetic fray' but I question his lukewarmness in the history of IHOP and those who associated with the ministry. Bickle was also on GOD TV during the Todd Bentley ministry. Bentley was a protege of Bob Jones who was an associate of IHOP. During that time I never heard much discernment from Bickle on that matter. Like many who were too close to the situation (like Dutch Sheets), he sat on the fence. I know a lot of people are fans of Bickle and trust him. But I believe that he is still holding on to a lot of IHOP baggage. To me, my assessment of Bickle isn't in what he's saying, but what he isn't saying. He may have admitted to some 'mistakes' made during the height of the IHOP ministry but I don't see him outright condemning the false gospel that Paul Cain and Bob Jones have preached, and in the case of Bob Jones still preach.

So I'm with Krispy. We have to be careful of whom we trust. I believe God has shown me this time and time again. That doesn't mean we can't be 'blessed' by a sermon but it does mean that we shouldn't attach ourselves too closely to any one preacher or ministry.

Really the thread is about Mike's vision of the end times, not about his theology or friends; though I must somewhat agree in general that association with heretics and receiving them as ministers doesn't help your cause to be known as a solid brother.

In defense of Mike, He disciplined Bob Jones...[along with others..] in a biblical manner, with the goal being repentance, long before Bob revealed his true colors and non biblical affiliations and doctrines. Jones rebelled against this; and ended up under the "covering" of Rick Joyner and crew.

Paul Cain suffered the exact same scenario and fate; be it with a different perversion revealed. He rebelled against biblical discipline, ran to Joyner's and ministered there. The three of them were integral...[ and still are..] with the demonic manifestations of the likes of Todd Bentley, and supported him and endorsed him at Lakeland last year.

My point is, that Bickle was loyal to these guys long before they showed themselves as heretics, and many , including myself, had a respect for them also. When they sinned, they were confronted. Times have changed, but you cannot fault Mike for being loyal, to his friends, and the Word. I trust mike, but do not agree with him, and he definitely is not a heretic.

Here is the basis of my disagreement with Mike. He embraced the catholic mystics long ago as those of a higher plane....deeper saints than the norm. He believes in his heart that these mystics found god , and every one of these folks...[ men and women..] practiced the "contemplative " model of prayer.

This prayer model is Babylonian, and "Transcendental" in nature...and strangely akin to the eastern occult practices of "focus" and "clearing " your mind to a void, to find revelation. This is practiced at IHOP, and the mystics taught as leaders to obtain the deeper walk with Jesus.

The Catholic mystics were deceived, and the blissful experience satanic, though robed in christian symbols; As the mother, so the daughter. It logically lead to the "Cloister" as the model of the church, and the real disciples...the super devotee's.

Herein comes the model of IHOP....a monastic order, protestant version of the MONASTERY. Rote, non inspired repetitious prayer, uninspired but repeated , over and over, and the same with worship and song. It is not prayer nor is it worship unto Jesus, but as the mystics, it has a form of godliness, but no spirit.

It is discipline, and has it roots in the catholic concept that a SACRIFICIAL LIFE is the most important one to God. It is subtle legalism that promotes the energy to become a high spiritual One, and leaving the devotee always struggling for a deeper commitment, while the peer group...[ fellow monastics..] both support and energize the fellow elites.

It is "high spirituality" and "cold love", for it can never produce real fruit for God.

Hi Krispy,

I agree with your main point. In fact, that would have been a major reason for me not going to IHOP in the past. To me, this is a clear and blatant weakness of Mike Bickle, his refusal to exercise leadership when it comes to Bentlely and all those people who are, and I say without reservation, false prophets. And I accept Tom's points about the Catholicism angle, although some of my own personal favorite people were called mystics, whether it be Jean Guyon or even Tozer. I personally believe, that despite Bickles glaring weakness in this area, that he is used of God and when it comes to the Word of God, I have been greatly blessed by him. These other guys, Bentley included, were so blatantly unscriptural, that it defies reason that people would follow them.

I just want to state again, I have been going to IHOP for six months now, not because I am an IHOPPER, but because I believe that the Lord is about to sweep away the established church and I am just parking it there for the moment, and of course I was compelled to go there by the Spirit :) I can honestly say that I have been blessed every single week by Biblical passionate sermons. I have also enjoyed the worship which has surprised me. I have no doubt that God is using these guys, despite some glaring weaknesses. He seems to have a philosophy that he will not critizise those who call themselves by the name of Jesus. I have heard him say that, which of course I totally disagree with, but putting that disagreement to one side, I have only heard sound Biblical teaching from him, I would be less than honest if I said otherwise...........Frank

2.]The promotion of hierarchy.

There has always been a hierarchy at KC vineyard/fellowship, as it at IHOP today, that has insulated itself inside of the "movement".It is not a church...and that is important to understand. By dismantling the idea of church, and by this only, can you contrive the biblical mandate of a super army, super disciples, that will turn the world upside down. It creates a venue to become one....a holy and powerful Saint...a "Fore-runner company in the vein of John the Baptist!"

The problem is that it never has worked, nor never will. This began over 25 years ago, when the super spiritual KC prophets emerged, and Mike lead Kansas City Fellowship into a praying church....a radical, devoted fasting group that would fill stadiums and shake the Earth. There was almost a spiritual competition as an energy there, and this created the model and term that I use....HIGH SPIRITUALITY..../ COLD LOVE...

THIS EVENTUALLY MORPHED INTO THE VISION OF THE PURE MONASTERY...WHERE A VERY ELITE AND SELECT GROUP WOULD BE NURTURED....IHOP.

24 hour prayer...[ just like the early catholic monks..] 24 hour praise. Pure devotion...and the prideful idea of becoming the "PRAYER MISSIONARY"!... and people were taught to raise their own support...[ donations..] rather than WORK!...to pay their way...[ just like the monasteries..]

The result is that the weak or pushed out...those with families and poverty and teenagers, jobs, that cannot devote the time the nun does....and the young are recruited...and this has been going on long before IHOP.

High spirituality / cold love. This is what a monastery produces, and is the earmark of Ihop, and KCF..and mike created it all.

The true church is the only vehicle that will ever lead us to holiness. It is largely made up of the desperate poor...families that must work 6 days a week,,,and teenagers, and suckling babes, and bosses and jobs, and taxes and life..

If the church will not function among the poor of the earth; IT IS NOT THE CHURCH!...and it is Never, never just for the strong, or the elite few, who may pay the price of a forerunner like john the Baptist.

These kids are constantly being flattered and puffed up to believe that they are all that...the spearhead of Jesus, the deeper ones, the powerful few who will pay and be devoted to Jesus 24/7...while they cannot realize that the Lord values mercy and real love above all....not a devoted monastic life.

This has been going on for many years at KCF/Ihop, and it has always, and always will fail. The church is for the weakling, buttressed by mercy and grace, and empowered by God's true love among us, and the weak cannot perform like the strong ones can. this is where you divide the "spiritual" ones, in Mike's eyes, and it is gross error.

This is the reason the "Prophetic" was elevated...The "Kansas City Prophets" syndrome, and why Mike has a penchant for the Mystics....they are super spiritual, and that to him is the call!... become super committed and super spiritual, and the modus operandi the monastery, or, "the Call", or any number of titled venues that support this false idea of a deeper commitment.

The restoration of the fallen tabernacle of David is not 24/7 prophetic devotion or the cloister...it is the simple church established locally throughout the church...with all of her weakness, distresses, and needs. It is here that we learn to cope in a fallen world, and how to love and restore our brothers and sisters likewise in need; not marching along with an army of super saints.

God's heart in us among the weak will teach us how to love, and this pleases Him the most.

[Multi-posting for time...]

Having posted my opinions, I wanted to add that I am not at all hostile to Mike Bickle; quite the contrary. I know he belongs to the Lord, and believe he will break out of his current ideas about extreme devotion, and the Babylonian mystics.

When he sees the harm he has done, i pray he will be broken and repent. I believe he has a high calling with the Lord.

PS:...I thoroughly believe his vision of the tanks coming. We will be invaded by foreign armies.

Amen Brothertom. You summed IHOP up fairly, accurately, and in sincerity.

What I took from what my mother in law gave me from certian IHOP individuals was that they were very willing to give you THEIR instructions on what to do. One particular 'devotion' was thirty some odd pages of what scriptures to study, when to fast, for what purpose this is done etc... as if you were following a MONTHLY regiment that came from God, to them, to you. Coming from the Catholic church myself it had that 'tinge' of methodology. Do this, pray this, fast this, and we will have revival. It seemed like it was more about their method than it was about God and it seemed more about quantity of people than the quality of the heartfelt prayer. I also noticed that they promoted eachother. Go to 'so and so's' gathering... read such and such's book.... support this person's cause etc... It was very exclusive and had an element of pomp that just didn't seem right.

This had the potential to become a train wreck, yet this has actually turned into a good conversation, brothers.

I will say one positive thing about IHOP... they have great pancakes.

Krispy

Hey krispy! It's me. Did you know that there is a IHOP pancake house near the religious Ihop, that is so enamored in the sharing of their ICONS, they'll give anyone a 10% discount with the Id of any hopper or conference attendee?

The omlettes are the best!...and it's a cool place to wind down and fellowship. [..all night...]

There sure are a lot of seekers and genuine believers that come there...

The Bible is objective truth, the Bible is revelation, yet outside of illumination one cannot rightly divide it. Illumination comes through the Holy Spirit and therein lies most of the disagreements,whether it is between "mystics," or whoever. Scripture alone is not enough, if it were, then the most spiritual people would be the pharissees. One must actually "know," Jesus, as opposed to having a head knowlede of the Scriptutes. Now, we have had that debate a thousand times on sermonindex and I do not want to derail the topic at hand, but this subject is never far away. What some people consider "super-spiritual," to others it would just be "Absolute surrender."

As has been said before by many of the giants of the faith, Christianity is not a mental assent to an abstract truth. The supernatural element , whether it is prophecy or any gifts of the Spirit will keep us debating until Jesus returns. Yet this we know, everything will fall between the walls of Scripture, and Scripture can rightly teach us about the supernatural elements of Christianity. So many of the so called prophets clearly could be discerned by a rudimentary knowledge of the God.

My own rule of thumb is, if you proclaim yourself as a prophet, then you are most likely not one........Frank

I love their country omlettes.

10% discount on pancakes and omlettes?? Biblical discernment to the wind! lol

Krispy

My own rule of thumb is, if you proclaim yourself as a prophet, then you are most likely not one........Frank

True.

If you speak prophecy, yet most of it never comes true... you are not one. (I didnt say that, God did)

Krispy

Hi LEO,

Appreciate your comments. This topic has been debated many times. I agree with what you say. The statement is not about not reading, in fact devouring scripture, its about the importance of "knowing," Jesus and being filled with His Holy Spirit without which no amount of Scripture reading will benifit the reader......Frank

brother, that is why the Scriptures are at the heart of the man who knows Jesus, for the Holy Spirit illuminates the Scriptures was my point. This is why I used the word ,"devour." The people that you mentioned have nothing to do with the genuine, still supernatural God. The points still stand brother. Genuinly "knowing Jesus," is all that saves. One can know the Scriptures and not know Jesus, one cannot know Jesus and not know Scripture.......brother Frank

What you read is basically the manifest sons of god teaching some call it joels army or the elijah revolution or a new breed or latter day rain.

Can we find anywhere in scripture what Mike is promoting "the defeat of the antichrist's end time false worship movement"

Manifest Sons of God, or Latter Rain is what I sat under back in my early walk with the Lord... when I was completely Biblically ignorant. Acutally it was a hybrid mix of Latter Rain and Word of Faith.

Manifest Sons of God is as heretical as Word of Faith. It has many similarities to WOF, but the main difference is that MSoG teaches that things will get better, not worse... and that the church (their version of it) will eventually defeat the anti-Christ and set up Christ's Kingdom on earth.

What's the problem with that? Quite simply the Bible is clear that CHRIST will defeat the anti-Christ... not us. Things wont get better on this earth, they will get worse until the coming of Christ.

There is so much more, and I dont have time right now, but it's available for all to read and investigate for yourselves.

Krispy

by murrcolr on 2009/9/1 13:37:28

Murrcolr: thanks for the quote. Yes, it is this elitist "forerunner" spirit that stokes the flames of monasticism and the pride of living a more "sacrificial life", in order to please the Lord more fully, that Mike has and does espouse. It is error, and separates the body from the weak to the strong. Mike says that only a minuscule percentage....1/10th of 1%...maybe...are called to the life of IHOP!

Jesus said; "ALL OF YOU THAT LABOR AND ARE HEAVY LADEN COME UNTO ME!"...not the elite few who can cut it and handle the rigor of a separate Elijah, as a forerunner. That's everybody who will come. "Compel them!"..He said.

This most earnest pride creates the "High Spirituality".../..."Cold Love" phenomena that all monasteries do. The church is called to the meek and the weak, and commanded to condescend to men of low estate...the lepers and outcasts, and dispense mercy as living waters to the needy. An Elijah band of forerunners who subtly dub themselves as "The most powerful worship movement in history" may not see the need to change diapers and actually work with their hands to support the weak in the church.

This is a quote from FORERUNNER SCHOOL OF MINISTRY – MIKE BICKLE

Quote:

"The conflict at the end-of-the-age will be between two Houses of Prayer (two global worship movements). The Holy Spirit is raising up the most powerful worship movement in history to defeat the Antichrist’s End-Time worldwide false worship movement."

No, the Holy Spirit is NOT raising up the most powerful worship movement in History to defeat the anti-christ....He is raising up the Church to become holy and spotless...including the vast majority in every nation who are weaklings, saved by grace and mercy alone. Yes, as Daniel says, the Church shall do "EXPLOITS". and be in full victory, but Jesus will defeat the anti-Christ...not the church. [ Revelation ]

Remember Stephen. Did he defeat the anti-christ of his day? Yes, he did, but in a different kind of faith than the most powerful worship company on earth may think.

Spiritual Pride masked as devotion.

Amen Mike, it happens time and time again, where the focus is on the error and not the truth and the baby gets thrown out with the bath water.........Frank

"Amen Mike, it happens time and time again, where the focus is on the error and not the truth and the baby gets thrown out with the bath water"...Frank...{Appolus}

A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Error must be focused upon or you will not have purity and holiness, but thereby deception and corruption.

Satan does not defile the church with a flood of black robed goats, but a subtle whisper of "Has God Said?" Pride and elitism , coupled with unscriptural mandates and doctrines have devastated the church more than all of the evil satanic covens combined.

This is not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but simply identifying the error that will kill the baby.

This is a quote from FORERUNNER SCHOOL OF MINISTRY – MIKE BICKLE

Quote:

"The conflict at the end-of-the-age will be between two Houses of Prayer (two global worship movements). The Holy Spirit is raising up the most powerful worship movement in history to defeat the Antichrist’s End-Time worldwide false worship movement."

No, the Holy Spirit is NOT raising up the most powerful worship movement in History to defeat the anti-christ....He is raising up the Church to become holy and spotless...including the vast majority in every nation who are weaklings, saved by grace and mercy alone. Yes, as Daniel says, the Church shall do "EXPLOITS". and be in full victory, but Jesus will defeat the anti-Christ...not the church. [ Revelation ]

Remember Stephen. Did he defeat the anti-christ of his day? Yes, he did, but in a different kind of faith than the most powerful worship company on earth may think.

Spiritual Pride masked as devotion.

HI Chris,

I think what Mike is getting at, and please correct me if I am wrong Mike, is that every single time anything supernatural is mentioned, whether it is simply someone saying God spoke to me, or someone talks about "knowing Jesus," intimately in an experiential way in accordance with Scriptures, someone stands up and shouts "Benny Hinn." Even although Mike or myself or others could have posted 10 different posts telling people that Benny Hinn or Todd Bentley or others are false prophets and not to follow them, the second we were to post something about being intimate with Jesus or its not enough to know Scriptures, you have to know Jesus personally, you can actually hear the plug being pulled and the bathwater draining out and the baby whisteling as he flies through the air:).........Frank

If lies were not disguised as truths no one would get deceived.

Krispy

"A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Error must be focused upon or you will not have purity and holiness, but thereby deception and corruption.

Satan does not defile the church with a flood of black robed goats, but a subtle whisper of "Has God Said?" Pride and elitism , coupled with unscriptural mandates and doctrines have devastated the church more than all of the evil satanic covens combined.

This is not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but simply identifying the error that will kill the baby." Brothertom

Amen!!! You summed it up right there. If the extreme elements of a ministry are unbiblical then there is nothing devilish in exposing it. The KC Prophets and the Ihop ministry has been proven to have a history of unbiblical claims and revelations. The fact is that KC prophets and Ihop got away with this for so long because for years practically NO ONE was looking at the negative or the 'extreme'. It's not like we don't have hindsight in some of our discernment along with scripture. The past 15 years have been absolutely FILLED with false gospels, prophets, and teachings. And guess what? They mixed a lot of truth in between and people were deceived. The bible is clear, the last days will be filled with no-so-sound doctrine and many false prophets.....

2 Timothy 3:13 (New International Version)

13while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and BEING DECEIVED.

1 Timothy 4

Instructions to Timothy

1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

Luke 21

7"Teacher," they asked, "when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?"
8He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them.

I believe we are in these last days and I take heed to the multitude of warnings for they are there for a reason. That doesn't mean we go 'heresy hunting' or critique every little interpretation of scripture. It does mean that we should be vigilant in recognizing blatantly obvious theologies that claim revelations that are unbiblical and take heed to those who are, or were, associated with those movements. Some who speak here speak with the experience of being involved in, or were once close to(to some degree) with false movements. I believe Krispy went to some events involving Paul Cain, I know Brothertom is familiar with the KC prophets and Ihop and I have also been to conferences with those on the 'fringe' of these movements. So it's not like the discernment is strictly subjective and ignorant. I believe God put me in situtions early on as a young christian to show me the various nuances of such movements. Also, I know David Wilkerson has had the relationship with God that has allowed him to speak on certain matters that could be considered prophetic. I have not spoken against him because he hasn't got caught up in fringe movements that stray away from sound scripture. But if someone wants to be critical of Pastor Wilkerson I won't begrudge them this. Time will bear us all out.

2 Timothy 3:13 (New International Version)

13while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and BEING DECEIVED.

1 Timothy 4

Instructions to Timothy

1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

Luke 21

7"Teacher," they asked, "when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?"
8He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them.

Again the warnings are clear. Jesus was not speaking evil towards the Pharisees when he called them hypocrites. Jesus was not speaking evil of false prophets and imposters by calling them what they were and warning us. Speaking evil of someone and challenging their unbiblical theologies are two different things. God does leave room for rebuke and correction. If this is speaking evil then we are all in big trouble. Are people like Paul Washer not to challenge Jehovah Witnesses if they espouse their unbiblical views?? Is he speaking evil of them if he does so?? False gospels and teaching have not been challenged enough the past 20 years because those same people who are misleading the flock pull out the 'speak no evil' and 'don't judge' card. I don't see anyone here speaking evil as if they are personalizing their condemnation in hate and anger. I do see logical conclusions based on past history as well as Berean type discernment that holds some theologies up to the light of God's word and drawing a conclusion which is not unbiblical or 'heresy hunting'.

2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)

16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, REBUKING, correcting and training in righteousness,

Matthew 24:24 (New International Version)

24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

....The deception will be so counterfeit that scores of people will be misled. I look at the recent movements and I see this quote above being fulfilled right before my eyes. Great signs, miracle healings, and extraordinary stories of spiritual matters....

Peter 2
False Teachers and Their Destruction

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[e] 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[f]and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

Hi Leo,
I think most of us would agree when it comes to blatantly false teachers, proffesors, peddlers and false prophets. Most of them fly in the face of Scripture and it is a fairly simple exercise to expose this. Now persuading the most biblically illiterate generation in over 300 years is another matter. Yet Leo,if we take your argument to its logical conclusion, we can see why their are so many denominations built up over the last 400 years. The Calvinist believeing the the Arminiun to be ungodly and not of sound doctrine and vice versa. Should each of these sides rebuke and condemn and not work with each other? What about almost every pastor in this country who believe in a pre-trib rapture? At least 25% of us disagree with that position, should we stand up against each other? One of the goals of sermonindex conferences is bringing together people of differeing theological backgrounds, but sold out to Jesus none-the less.

For me, this is not about Mike Bickle, yes I have been going there for 6 months and I happen to not have a problem with his vision of tanks rolling down the streets, its not that unsimiliar to David Wilkersons visions. I know all about Mike Bickle and his past, I have lived in Kansas for 20 years. Many of the people that he has associated with I believe to be charlatans. Yet I do not hear heresy taught from his pulpit. I do not agree with much of what he believes in regard to eschatology. Yet, I do not agree with most Christians around the world in that I believe that we are going through the tribulation. It does not mean I would reject them or not work with them if I believed that they genuinly knew Jesus and were sold out to Him. Too often in Christianity we deal with each other the way that Rush Limbaugh would deal with a "Liberal," or Ann Coulter. Maybe that is the spirit of the age?........Frank

Though I do not agree with Mike Bickle line for line, nor about the vision and role of the church, I certainly will not brand him a false teacher or prophet.

I am exposing myself here, but I ask for mercy from some of you who may want to write me off. I lived in Kansas city in 1994, and was a part of Metro vineyard...the revised KCF under John Wimber's organization.

There seemed to be a lot of turmoil and friendlessness, and I began to inwardly accuse Mike Bickle as the source of the attacks. I had a pretty hardy intercessory prayer life then, and I began to pray AGAINST Bickle. I was on my face before the lord, in secret, and the Holy Spirit spoke to me, audibly, in a thundering rebuke. He said; "Who ever touches him, touches the Apple of my Eye!"

I was thrown from off my face, back up onto my knees, trembling with terror. Enough said to state that I never have, nor ever will oppose or speak evil against Mike. This was speaking evil against one of the Lord's. This does not mean that I must receive everything Mike teaches and all of his ideas about the church. I do not, and believe that there is some error, as I have stated down the scroll; but that is much different than marking him.

I have known him to be a man of mercy and integrity; unselfish and yet brilliant in his conceptions of the gospel, and has ministered to me invaluable riches in the area of devotion and intercession.

In 1995 or 1996 I had another Prophetic experience concerning Mike. I saw twin lights, moving up a backdrop of a timeline, that I understood to be the life of Mike Bickle, in direct correspondence with the life of David.

I saw all of the biblical events in David's life, and then similar events in Mike's life, on a close timeline; They related.

This went on for a while, and then the Lord spoke; "In 15 years, Mike Bickle shall enter into his Apostolic calling." Mike was 38 years old then. Through it all, I believe that a "paradigm shift" will soon occur in Mike's life, leaning him to a more "local church'ed based gospel" than from his current "movement" mentality.

I also want to say, that I believe Mike's vision IS from God, and here's why I do...

justice and glory...

http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2009/08/09/justice-and-glory/#more-6037

Well, for those of you at sermon index that really want some ammo to hammer me; here it is. LOL...anyway, I am not ashamed of what the Lord has shown me, and I believe Bickle's vision IS from God.

Leo writes...

"Where Mike Bickle is concerned, I will defer to your superior knowledge of him."

Brother, that made me smile. I know personaly, that I have no superior knowledge on any subject :) And God knows this even better. You have passion brother, and that comes accross in your posts. This post of yours was refreshing, I agree. And , just for the record, I am not defending Mike Bickle. I just gave an honest assesment of what I have seen in the last six months. Maybe I am at IHOP to teach them something :) Now wouldnt that be something :)........Frank

Brothertom wrote:
I believe that a "paradigm shift" will soon occur in Mike's life, leaning him to a more "local church'ed based gospel" than from his current "movement" mentality.

Then:
"Paradigm shift"... Is that your way of saying repent!"
....murrcolr

Well, in a sense, yes; the caveat being that there is no direct contradiction in the word concerning being in a "movement", rather than the sole ideas and doctrines that are derived from the mindset of ministry in the ancient apostolic and Pauline applications of the local church.

For instance, let us take denominationalism. Most denominations are but the natural progression of a movement; like the Assembly of God headquarters located near me in Springfield, Missouri. This organization was founded in the Pentecostal movement that began at Azusa street, L.A., California, in 1906.

The Christians that are employed there, [ Springfield ] may or not be involved in a local church; say an office secretary. She sees her livelihood as a ministry also. Is it? Well, it may, or may not be. She is part of the church, but the para-church, in that the practical guidelines of her employment are not necessarily dictated solely by the word and doctrines expounded in the New testament.

It is the exact same for various missionary organizations...the para church or movement is often completely divorced from the life and activities of the local church anywhere; yet it may be integral for the success of the larger vision and practical vision of supply and order that eventually does serve a local church somewhere. It is the same with bible colleges and printing facilities and translators.

In these movements, such as the "prophetic movement", or the "Prayer movement", [ the Catholics have 24 hour stations all over Europe ] the problem emerges when there is no longer any local oversight...and the energy shifts to the cause, rather than the means to obtain the fulfillment of the cause.

Paul the apostle never got so complicated; he kept it simple, direct and pure; All being based around and through the paradigm of the local church, governed by ordained shepherds......[ pastors ], and organized by the leading of the Spirit in each locality. A movement can and does by nature skirt this authority, to obtain the vision of the greater movement or cause.

[ continued ]

2.] continued from below...

Brothertom wrote:
I believe that a "paradigm shift" will soon occur in Mike's life, leaning him to a more "local church'ed based gospel" than from his current "movement" mentality.

"Paradigm shift is that your way of saying repent."...murrcolr

Movements are not "shepherded" or "oversaw" by the local assembly; but usually by one leader, or a board under him that is united in the cause. This always tends to produce error. Today, the Prayer movement, the "youth" movement..[ the "cause", "One thing"...etc. ], and the "Prophetic" movement...[ the "Elijah list" venues, the NAR...etc.] are good examples. They are in no way churches, nor governed in a biblical , plural manner, but never-the -less, influence the church greatly.

This potential conflict is at the heart of evangelizing the World, of bringing the gospel to each and every nation. I believe that it will eventually boil down to the local church, and the nurturing and establishing of the local church, and here, the DOCTRINES...[ which is at the heart of this thread..] that PRODUCE fruit, are not so easily and cavalierly sullied.

Here , on the local level, meditative and contemplative prayer would be instantly exposed as Babylonian.....but on the Event level, the Venue of the Prayer movements, it can be easily introduced as a more anointed and deeper path to access the Throne. The Roman Catholic influence, [and it's sure to come Maryology and "saints"] would never be allowed to root here, but, as it is, IS prevalent, but subtle at IHOP, because Prayer has become the crusade, rather than the GOSPEL! I have witnessed Roman Catholic nuns ministering with Mike on stage there!

Why? Because the cause trumped doctrine, which can only occur within a movement!..not the mature plural Eldership adhering to the scripture in a local assembly.

It is the fundamental difference between the ancient Apostolic church, and the whims and winds of whoever takes up the crusade in whatever movement they are identified with. It always bends, and always will, for it is outside of the Lord Jesus' Divine order that begins and ends with the Local church.

I will leave my argument with this one thought. Who did Jesus Yahweh..[ God Almighty ] address in his last word through the Apostle John, upon revealing Himself? [The Revelation of Jesus Christ..]

The seven churches of Asia....the seven LOCAL churches, BY NAME! There is no other authority to address, nor will there ever.

I believe that my word about Mike was from God, so therefore my hope and belief is that Mike Bickle will "shift" from the "movement" mentality unto the local church mentality, which is the only true model anointed by Jesus.

"We need both the Word and the Spirit. We should be seeking all of the fulness of God." Abide

This is true. I believe this wholeheartedly. What I'm suspect of are those self-proclaimed 'super apostles' who focus more on manefestations and prophecy than the cross and Christlike regeneration and duty. It seems to me that, at the forefront of the church, more is said than done. The pulpit has become a stage show for skits, personal opinion, political agendas, unbiblical manifestations, and prophetic boastings about the church. When Paul speaks of the 'super Apostles' of his day, I think he was also speaking prophetically concerning the church. Here Paul is, who represents Christ's church, sitting in jail for preaching and living out truth.... and the 'super apostles' are out and about freely deceiving and getting all kinds of 'amens!' and invites to exclusive dinners. But Paul still had the Spirit and power of God as God's plan bore through Paul, even in chains.

I believe God is doing a hidden work that is going unnoticed by the mainstream stagers. Hearts are being transformed, souls hidden in prayer, healings that are not in the newpaper or the church bulletin, a Christlike presence on the streets of the homeless or taking care of the sick, humble servants giving to the less fortunate, revelations that are not quick to be told but will be when the time is right, reluctant servants who don't necessarily want to enter a hornets nest of criticizing a lukewarm church but are pushed forward by God and take their lumps. Much of this is a lonely business. I rarely see a church leader live by example. Dave Wilkerson walked the streets of New York city where no one would dare to go and picked up the spiritually destitute for the glory of God. And all this BEFORE his preaching ministry began. Jim Cymbala lives on the streets of Brooklyn and ministers to urine soaked hobos and drug addicts. His church is open and prays 24hrs a day and not in a pious monastic manner, but in heartfelt sincerity.

The OT prophets and the Apostles were not a real popular bunch, they didn't have a huge following. Their power and the manefestations of God were not to prove God's existence or to boast in the power of the church, they were to further His kingdom. And it was a byproduct of obedience, devotion and Godly living. It was the exception, not the rule. If the mainstream church wasn't so lukewarm and blind I would be more open to spiritual happenings. But the Bible says that sound doctrine will decrease and deception will increase in our time. That doesn't mean the remnant won't have the 'full counsel of God' but it means that God is reserving His power for those who He knows will not abuse it or boast of it. He won't allow it to be a source of mockery and it won't be for those who want 'outward proof' before they believe.

Like the mustard seed, His kingdom starts from the inside out. This is where His power will be manifested and His remnant church built. In a world where morality is a political stance, creationism is curriculum, and healing is a nationwide 'tour' we have a lot of work to do. God won't be mocked, He's looking for those who want to get their hands dirty and pay the price first. Paul didn't get revelation, and Peter didn't heal, just because they 'had the spirit'. They proved their faith and devotion through God's school of hard knocks. We don't want this in America. We want the bells and whistle's just for being a church. I won't say anymore here about Bickle, I believe the conversation concerning him here have been fair. Most of what I say is more of a genaral observation anyway.

I just challenge our leadership to stop writing their books, skip the speaking engagements, and live by the example of Christ by getting their hands and feet dirty every now and then. Reality wasn't far from Jesus. At every turn there was a need, a groaning majority of hurting, lost, and abandoned people. The leadership of that time abandoned them and insulated themselves from the nusance. The need has not changed and the church continues to insulate themselves from the glaring reality. They sell their books and write a check to their favorite charity to claim some kind of contribution. Christ was 'hands on' and available. I don't see much of this at all today except in a few ministries that scare people away because they want to do the dirty work.

"I am so thankful that even back in those days I was reading Watchman Nee and later T. Austin Sparks, and they helped me to see the reality of the cross of Christ and the purpose of God for the Church." Abide

Yes, it was men like these who God led me too after I was subjected to the false teachings at first. I knew something was wrong and prayed for God to lead me to those who knew His truth and lived what they preached. I started reading Andrew Murray, Mueller and EM Bounds before I was led to sermonindex. We don't have many like these anointed ones these days, or, perhaps they are hidden until the time is right. Regardless, it's been a blessing.