Just Believe or Repentance & Faith?

Does salvation come by just "believing" in the Lord Jesus Christ or do we need "Repentance & Faith"?

Doug

considering Jesus is God, and he died for our sins, and that he is the author and finisher of our faith i am convinced he was dead serious when he said "repent and believe" . There is no salvation if one is left out, true faith includes both.

DougRenz wrote:
Does salvation come by just "believing" in the Lord Jesus Christ or do we need "Repentance & Faith"?

I was reading the REPENTANCE book by Michael Pearl and in the last chapter he wrote that there is no where in God's word written "repent from sin", only "repent from bad works".

He went on to say that "repentance" from sin is Man's work of salvation and those on the other side justify it as "God preparing a mans heart to repent".

This verse:
"Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." —Acts 20:21

He went on to say that Repentance is not from sin but toward God (which I agree), but don't we need to turn from sin (an act of Repentance) to be saved and not just have faith? Don't the demons also believe and are going to hell?

This article here:

[url=http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer%27s%20Corner/Doctrines/repent.htm]Repentance is NOT Forsaking One's Sin[/url]

Here are the last few paragraphs from this article:

It is false doctrine to make repenting of one's sins an event in itself to be saved. Again, repentance is not turning from one's sins; Repentance is turning to the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved from one's sins (Romans 4:5). Jack Chick, David Cloud, Ray Comfort, Aiden Tozer, John MacArthur and the Salvation Army all make repentance an isolated act by itself. The Bible stands against them for perverting the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The word "believe" is mentioned 85 times in the Gospel of John; YET the word "repent" is not mentioned even ONCE!!! Clearly, the sinner who believes on Jesus as the Christ to forgive their sins has repented. False prophets today define repentance as merely turning from one's sins. This misunderstanding of repentance has spawned multiple false gospels. Repentance is turning TO THE LORD from the guilt and condemnation of sin, to have those sins washed away by the precious literal blood of Jesus Christ (1st Peter 1:18,19). To believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness of one's sins is repentance. To merely turn from sin is nothing more than "turning over a new leaf," which is the false gospel of Perry Stone. True Biblical repentance means turning to Jesus Christ by faith to be forgiven of one's sins. The "turning" is not from the act of sin itself; but rather, TURNING TO THE LORD to be forgiven from the condemnation which sin has brought upon all mankind (Romans 3:19-23; 5:12). Lordship Salvationists have perverted the Gospel. They teach that repentance and faith are two separate steps to salvation, and that faith alone in Christ is insufficient to save anyone unless they've turned from their sinful lifestyle. In sharp contrast, Genesis 15:6 tells us that Abram was justified by faith in the Lord. The Gospel of John mentions the word "believe" 85 times without ever mentioning the word "repent" even once. This is because the person who has believed on the Lord to be forgiven of their sins has repented of their sins. Salvation is turning to Jesus to be forgiven of one's sins; NOT turning from one's sins in order to be forgiven by Jesus.

I always thought that repentance is necessary for salvation... even if "repent from sin" is not in the Bible, can't we believe it is a Biblical Truth?

Doug

The other idea I read was that Repentance was written for those who are hypocrites and not the unsaved, and the "just believe" is for the ungodly/unsaved.

Romans 4:5 says... "But to him that WORKETH NOT, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is COUNTED for righteousness."

DougRenz wrote:
I was reading the REPENTANCE book by Michael Pearl and in the last chapter he wrote that there is no where in God's word written "repent from sin", only "repent from bad works".

He went on to say that "repentance" from sin is Man's work of salvation

This verse:
"Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." —Acts 20:21

He went on to say that Repentance is not from sin but toward God (which I agree), but don't we need to turn from sin (an act of Repentance) to be saved and not just have faith? Don't the demons also believe and are going to hell?

The "from sin" is implied when it says "toward God"
Therefore, he is wrong, it does say that Repentance is from sin also.

I was reading the REPENTANCE book by Michael Pearl and in the last chapter he wrote that there is no where in God's word written "repent from sin", only "repent from bad works".

This man who is calling others a false teacher, is clearly teaching false doctrine.

Mark 1:15 Jesus said repent AND believe the gospel (two seperate things).

Matthew 9:13 Jesus said He came to call SINNERS to repentance (repent from what? Being sinners!)

Luke 24:47 Jesus said 'Repentance and remission of sins should be preached to all nations...'

Repentance is clearly turning FROM sin and TO Christ. Faith invoves both and to try to say that you are believing (trusting and relying)on Christ without turning from your old life of sin is crazy.

Sometimes the bible describes the act of repentance without using the word 'repentance' as this passage shows...

1 John 3:4-6 ' Whover commits sin also commits lawlessness.
And you know that He (Jesus) was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him is no sin.
Whovever abides in Him does not (continue in) sin. Whoever (continues to) sin has neither seen Him or known Him.'

for "DougRenz"

"Just Believe or Repentance & Faith?
Does salvation come by just "believing" in the Lord Jesus Christ or do we need "Repentance & Faith"?"

A sermon I've always appreciated is "The First Word of the Gospel" by J Edwin Orr. I think that it will help you to understand the answer to your question. You can find it on this page https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=11&min=60&orderby=titleA&show=20 the second last sermon.

why is not Jesus words enough? why need we other mens words? if it where a very obscure and hard passage to understand i can see need fr consulting others.... but Jesus said "repent and believe"

As the other responders have pointed out, faith without repentance is not faith at all. If we believe in God, then we must believe his teachings. His Word and His Spirit will lead us into repentance IF WE TRULY BELIEVE.

Regarding repentance from sin:

Repentance is NOT Forsaking One's Sin

I don't see the need to belabor this point.

one needs to read the entire book to understand what Michael Pearl said. He did not do a false teaching, he said that repentance is to GOD, not from something. His book has every verse on repentance clearly expounded on. One should not call him a false teacher because one line of his book was quoted here without the rest of his explanation to go with it.

If we REPENT TO God- we will turn away from sin- yes. But that is not what repentance means, it is a result of it.

Nobody called him a false teacher. I actually like most of his teachings. I am trying to understand this theological understanding of faith, repentance and salvation.

Doug

onlyHIS wrote:
one needs to read the entire book to understand what Michael Pearl said. He did not do a false teaching, he said that repentance is to GOD, not from something. His book has every verse on repentance clearly expounded on. One should not call him a false teacher because one line of his book was quoted here without the rest of his explanation to go with it.

If we REPENT TO God- we will turn away from sin- yes. But that is not what repentance means, it is a result of it.

re⋅pent⋅ance  [ri-pen-tns, -pen-tuhns]
–noun
1.\tdeep sorrow, compunction, or contrition for a past sin, wrongdoing, or the like.
2.\tregret for any past action.
Origin:
1300–50; ME repentaunce < OF repentance. See repent 1 , -ance

Synonyms:
1. contriteness, penitence, remorse. 2. sorrow, qualms.

Antonyms:
1. impenitence.

The phrase "repentance to God" means "deep sorrow, compunction, or contrition for a past sin and turning to God". The author did a shortcut.

Please enough of semantics.

If he is not a false teacher, then he is dangerously close to being one because it appears he would have people believe that turning away from sin is not a necessary component of salvation.

This verse: "Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." —Acts 20:21

This verse was rendered in KJV 17th century English. The more precise wording in the modern English that we can all understand easily is:

Ac 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus. (NIV)

Wittingly or unwittingly, the author is misreading the meaning of the verse as rendered in 17th century English.

One should not call him a false teacher because one line of his book was quoted here without the rest of his explanation to go with it.

Unfortunately it appears that it is Michael Pearl who calls people false teachers.

Jack Chick, David Cloud, Ray Comfort, Aiden Tozer, John MacArthur and the Salvation Army all make repentance an isolated act by itself. The Bible stands against them for perverting the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

To accuse Ray Comfort or Tozer (or anyone else who teaches we should turn from sin)of not teaching faith in Jesus Christ is nonsense and worthy of our rejection. I would reject the book on this point alone, even if he had a point of view to emphasise because he is clearly unbalanced in his own self opinion.

Michael Pearl did not write that quote about Ray Comfort and Tozer. Would you like to share your source of that article Doug Renz? it is not Michael Pearl.

I will stand that one should not accuse someone of being a false teacher when you are getting one line of his teaching here. He wrote an entire book, and you are getting one quote of his here, along with someone's interpretation on here.

I clicked on the link provided and found that the author of the article is one David J. Stewart

Repentance is NOT Forsaking One's Sins!
By David J. Stewart

"Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." —Acts 20:21

Repentance is not turning from (i.e., forsaking) one's sins, nor even being willing to turn from one's sins; Repentance is turning to the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved from one's sins (Romans 4:5). Salvation is receiving; NOT giving. Eternal life is the free gift of God (Romans 5:15;6:23), paid for by Jesus' precious literal blood (1st Peter 1:18,19). To be saved we simply need to come as a guilty sinner to Jesus Christ to have our sins washed away by His redeeming blood (1st John 1:7). Salvation is turning to Jesus to be forgiven of one's sins; NOT turning from one's sins in order to be forgiven by Jesus...

His handling of the verse from Acts 20:21 is faulty, as mentioned in preceding posts.

Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must TURN TO GOD IN REPENTANCE and have faith in our Lord Jesus. (NIV)

The Greek word for "repent" is μετανοέω (metanoeō), it means "to change one's mind".

The Gospel is news that confronts someone. It is the good news that Christ has died for sinners and has made a way of peace with God.

In order to change one's mind about this is to forsake ALL hope in one's self righteousness, or one's works to achieve peace with God. It is not only turning from BAD works, but even our GOOD works as a means of justification, or rightness with God.

Of course, repentance without faith is not what leads to salvation, neither is faith without repentance. BUT, the new birth produces faith and repentance in the sinner. It is not the cause of new birth. God shines the light of the glory of Christ into the heart, God gives a heart of flesh in place of a heart of stone, and this new heart longs for Christ and grieves that it has so offended One who is so loving and good.

From day one of the Christian life to the day we are glorified, the true Christian lives a life of repentance and faith, it's not a one and done type of thing at all.

I wanted to add a point to clarify.

When I said this-
[i]it's not a one and done type of thing at all[/i]

I did not meant that justification is a process; justification is a one time legal declaration based on faith in Christ's work.

Sanctification on the other hand is a process which is worked out in us by continual repentance and faith.

I'm sure we would all admit(if we're honest; and lying is a sin) that there are things we do and don't do each day that would give God the right to condemn us. But thanks be to God that Christ has borne our wrath in our place so we might be welcomed in His place as if His righteousness were ours!

by roaringlamb on 2009/9/2 15:24:52 The Greek word for "repent" is μετανοέω (metanoeō), it means "to change one's mind". The Gospel is news that confronts someone. It is the good news that Christ has died for sinners and has made a way of peace with God. In order to change one's mind about this is to forsake ALL hope in one's self righteousness, or one's works to achieve peace with God. It is not only turning from BAD works, but even our GOOD works as a means of justification, or rightness with God. Of course, repentance without faith is not what leads to salvation, neither is faith without repentance. BUT, the new birth produces faith and repentance in the sinner. It is not the cause of new birth. God shines the light of the glory of Christ into the heart, God gives a heart of flesh in place of a heart of stone, and this new heart longs for Christ and grieves that it has so offended One who is so loving and good. From day one of the Christian life to the day we are glorified, the true Christian lives a life of repentance and faith, it's not a one and done type of thing at all.

Very well said, together with your clarification on justification.

Matt 3:1-2 1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Repent:Metanoeo: 3340 metanoevw Metanoeo (met-an-o-eh'-o);
Word Origin: Greek, Verb
from (3326) and (3539)

to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

Notice the verb.

Repent is mentioned 21 seperate times in the new testament.

Believe:Pisteuo: 4100 pisteuvw Pisteuo (pist-yoo'-o);
Word Origin: Greek, Verb
from (4102)

to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
of the thing believed
to credit, have confidence
in a moral or religious reference
used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith 1bc) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
to be intrusted with a thing

Faith:Pistis: 4102 pivstiß Pistis (pis'-tis);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Feminine
from (3982)

conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
relating to God
the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
relating to Christ
a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
the religious beliefs of Christians
belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
fidelity, faithfulness
the character of one who can be relied on

IN my opinion, we must repent,"be sorry, and decide that our way of doing is wrong and God's way is right, and we set our hearts to do it God's way"....
Believe in Him, "Jesus" not only that he exists, but believe or trust the fact He is capable to not only forgive your sins but also transform you from a sinner who practices sinnful behavior, to someone who is not only sorry for the sinnful behavior but to someone who is growing in maturity and not doing the things that will cast the disobedient into the lake of fire for eternity.
Faith: this is interesting, but faithfullness is something God always is and something were striving for. to have Faith in God is two fold, one is to be assured he will do what he says he will do, but having faith in God means also we are faithful to him as well.
If were not faithful, were not really believing in Him either, if were not faithful or following him, were not really repenting or having a repentant attitude all the time.

My thoughts.

hi, Jesus took care of the sin question on the cross... to say a lost man can turn from sin is to say that man did not need this sacrifice.. the repent we must have is turning our lives over to the Lordship of Christ from the lordship of self...read romans 6.7.8 we must walk in the Spirit not in the flesh...humility is gained by understanding what Jesus did on the cross for us..HE is the saviour..jimp

Brothers:

[b]truefaithsav said:[/b]
"The true Gospel requires that men choose to repent of their sins. Jesus called men to repent of their sins. Living faith rejects sin. Those who say that you do not need to forsake your sins to be saved are preaching another Gospel, another Jesus, and another faith."

[b]and then jimp said:[/b]
"Jesus took care of the sin question on the cross... to say a lost man can turn from sin is to say that man did not need this sacrifice.. the repent we must have is turning our lives over to the Lordship of Christ from the lordship of self.."

[u]This is like arguing: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?[/u] Too much Christian energy is wasted in unproductive quibbling over little things. [b]What is important is that, no matter which of the above arguments hold true, man will turn away from sin if he has true faith and accepts the lordship of Christ. [/b]Should we belabor the point of which occurred first? Is it at all necessary? All we need to do is agree that it is faith in God that makes all these possible. [b]Does this faith come from the man or is it provided by God as part of his grace? I don't need to know the answer to that as long as faith happens, repentance happens, and rebirth happens.[/b]

This is like arguing: Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Too much Christian energy is wasted in unproductive quibbling over little things.

Does God see the glory of sinful man's salvation as a 'little thing'?

Unfortunately we have to think about God in this and not just our own opinions. Does God care how salvation comes about? Does He care who receives the glory for His crowning work? Does he mind when sinful men take the credit and glory for His most treasured work?

You said you don't understand or know which came first. Best to look into God's word a little more before teaching hundreds of God's people that He doesn't care who receives the glory.

You might not care. But He does.

Is 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another...

Dear imnowhere,

This is the second time that you have tried to put words in my mouth.

You said you don't understand or know which came first. Best to look into God's word a little more before teaching hundreds of God's people that He doesn't care who receives the glory.

jimp wrote:
hi, Jesus took care of the sin question on the cross... to say a lost man can turn from sin is to say that man did not need this sacrifice

The sacrifice (Atonement) is not so that man may be able to turn from his sin, but it is so that he may be foregiven from his past sins which were able to be avoided in the first place.

[b]IF[/b] Jesus took care of sin on the cross, then you have universal salvation. Because if all sin was forgiven on the cross, then those who reject Christ to their death would be forgiven.

Jesus only took care of sin on the cross only if one truns from sin. If one does not turn from sin, it proves that he never had faith to begin with.

imnowhere wrote:

Does He care who receives the glory for His crowning work? Does he mind when sinful men take the credit and glory for His most treasured work?
Is 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another...

[b]Luke 17:9[/b] [color=990000]Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not.
[b]:10[/b] So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.[/color]

Doing a duty is never anything to boast in.
to boast in duty would be like saying, "hey, I'm so proude of my self, I did what I'm suposed to do. Ain't I great"

The comand to repent is all mankinds duty:
[b]Act 17:30[/b] [color=990000]And the times of this ignorance God overlooked; but now commands [b]all men everywhere[/b] to repent:[/color]

[b]Question:[/b]
How could all men everywhere repent if they can not untill Jesus first gives them the ability?

Remember, commanding an imposibility is sadistic, if not tyranical; especially if one is punished for not doing that which they can not do.

Does this faith come from the man or is it provided by God as part of his grace? I don't need to know the answer to that as long as faith happens, repentance happens, and rebirth happens.

You think this is a game?
You're telling hundreds or thousands of people online that it is 'a small thing' , that it 'doesn't matter' how are salvation comes about? Will you preach that sermon on the other side?

You're right it's not a game.

Question:How could all men everywhere repent if they can not untill Jesus first gives them the ability?

Remember, commanding an imposibility is sadistic, if not tyranical; especially if one is punished for not doing that which they can not do.

So then it was sadistic of the Lord to command a dead Lazarus to come out of the tomb, or for God to command perfect obedience in word, thought and deed of Israel for 1400 years without the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling them?

And I guess the one that represents God in Matt 18 is 'sadistic, tyrranical' etc for commanding the man that owed him the unpayable debt to pay.

My friend, it's not the ability to pay that makes a command virtuous. God can and has demanded what we cannot pay. That is why we come to him empty, without boast, even thanking God for the gifts of faith and repentance.

If you don't see this now, as George Whitefield said, you will on the other side.

By the way, the reason we are unprofitable servants is because we don't bring anything God needs, not because we by lip service deny works while maintaining our will was needed by God. We rather have been made willing in the day of His power. It is God who is working in us to WILL AND TO DO His good pleasure.

The glory is all God's.

If you think that is tyrranical and sadistic so be it. But you might change your mind one day like I have.

Maybe it's just easiest to look at the bible that speaks to this specific question...

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 .[b]Which were [/b]born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, [b]nor of the will of man[/b], but of God.

Rom 9:16 .[b]So then it is not of him that willeth[/b], nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Sounds as if you imly that repentance from sin gives glory to man.

If men take all the credit for it, then yes, it does.

Dear imnowhere.

I will humor you one last time by answering your last post to me:

Quote: Does this faith come from the man or is it provided by God as part of his grace? I don't need to know the answer to that as long as faith happens, repentance happens, and rebirth happens.

You think this is a game?
You're telling hundreds or thousands of people online that it is 'a small thing' , that it 'doesn't matter' how are salvation comes about? Will you preach that sermon on the other side? You're right it's not a game.

First of all, you're contradicting yourself. First you accuse me of thinking that salvation is a game, then in the same paragraph you say, "You're right it's not a game."

To clarify, I do not think our salvation is a game. In fact, it is so important and so precious that I would rather enjoy my salvation, worship my God who gave it to me by grace, and focus on doing His will, rather that quibble with you on the step-by-step approach taken by God. It is enough for me to know that He saved me. I would rather work out my sanctification than nitpick God's methodology (which no man can fully understand anyway).

And yes, [b]I'm trying to tell all the Christians online that it is better to live out your Christianity than to dissect it.[/b] I truly believe that some theologians have gone too far in trying to reduce Christianity into an academic exercise.

Job 11:7-9 “Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty? They are higher than the heavens —what can you do? They are deeper than the depths of the grave —what can you know? Their measure is longer than the earth and wider than the sea."

imnowhere wrote:

Question:How could all men everywhere repent if they can not untill Jesus first gives them the ability?

Remember, commanding an imposibility is sadistic, if not tyranical; especially if one is punished for not doing that which they can not do.

So then it was sadistic of the Lord to command a dead Lazarus to come out of the tomb

or for God to command perfect obedience in word, thought and deed of Israel for 1400 years without the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling them?

For anyone could have the Holy Spirit.
Read Num 11:25-29
The Scriptures never say that no one could have the Spirit.

The Following tells us that Israel was able to do what is commanded, even (as you say) without the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling them:
[b]Romans 9:30[/b] [color=990000]What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
[b]:31[/b] But Israel, who followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
[b]:32[/b] Why? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone;[/color]
They were judged because they could have done what the Gentiles did, but were disobediant.

This is what the Scriptures call "The Rest" (Jesus is our rest) which they were disobediant of.
[b]Hebrews 3:18[/b] [color=990000]And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
[b]:19[/b] So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
[b]Hebrews 4:1[/b] Let us therefore fear, lest, although a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[b]:2[/b] For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them[/color] (the "gospel" which was preached to them was the "promise of rest" which is also preached to us)
[color=990000]but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.[/color]

disobedience implies ability.
Punishment is never from diability, unless you brought the disability upon yourself.

And I guess the one that represents God in Matt 18 is 'sadistic, tyrranical' etc for commanding the man that owed him the unpayable debt to pay.

My friend, it's not the ability to pay that makes a command virtuous. God can and has demanded what we cannot pay

The command was to not sin (and go into debt from it), we were never suposed to sin, but we did. We did that which we were able not to do.

That is why we come to him empty, without boast, even thanking God for the gifts of faith and repentance.

You criminalize God.

If you don't see this now, as George Whitefield said, you will on the other side.

By the way, the reason we are unprofitable servants is because we don't bring anything God needs.

not because we by lip service deny works while maintaining our will was needed by God.

Mankind must first be willing and love Him inorder to be reconciled to Him.
No one ever has eternal life until they Love God, knowing that He was loving them from day one.

You imply that one has eternal life before they love Him and are willing.

We rather have been made willing in the day of His power.

True love persuades, it never forces by power.

The glory is all God's.

If you think that is tyrranical and sadistic so be it. But you might change your mind one day like I have.

By the way, when you changed your mind, you clearly didn't think it out logically.

Knowing this, mankind will not be condemned for that which they could not do, but could and refused.

Mankind are not victims, or disabled, but are criminals that were able to not be criminals.
If one could not avoid being a criminal, there would be no guilt on his part.

I think I'll acknowledge God rather than lean on my own understanding.

I can't take near that amount of credit for my walk with God.

imnowhere wrote:

Sounds as if you imly that repentance from sin gives glory to man.

If men take all the credit for it, then yes, it does.

How/why would God forgive those who do not want Him or love Him, not to mention those who refuse to put their faith in/on what He has said & done with repentance to prove the faith.

hi, altars are places of sacrifice... death to our self while we receive the zoe life of Christ. if a man says he is without sin he is a liar and the truth..JESUS is not in him. the word says you have NOT chosen Me I have chosen you. if one walks in the Spirit he pleases God and if he walks in the flesh he still has the sentence of death on him.shall we sin GOD FORBID, but if we do we have an advocate with the father.. rest in His finished work. jimp remember that there were 2 trees in the garden ...one was the knowledge of good and evil[ mans religious way] the other was the tree of LIFE... Jesus

Doug,

we put our trust in Christ
then by His grace He transforms us

we come to Him saying here is my life
but then He must take it
and give us the power to actually give it
and not just decide to give it
but actually give it in a walked out way

belief and faith
have a way of coming off as a
mere intellectual understanding
trust however
is that which believes with the heart
and surrenders

we don't get ourselves right
we surrender
then He takes over

if we had to get ourselves perfect before God
before coming to God
by "repenting" (false interpretation of)
then no one could come
for all are slaves of sin

it might be said believe and repent
since we cant change our lives
til after we believe
then having the Gospels grace to do so

or possibly
that repent and believe
are not one before the other
but together at once
for when we believe
the fruit will simultaneously be
repentance

the scriptures also say
repent and be baptized for the remission of sins
however we read later
that baptism does not save us and it merely water
it is the true spiritual baptism that does
into Christ
so also as it says repent
that repentance no more saves us
then does baptism
repentance and baptism are both a result
of faith/ trust/ belief

i have spoken to some cultists
like watchtowerites, or mormons, or others
they will say
faith without works is dead
so therefore we must do works to be saved
i say i agree
that we must do works to be saved
but those works do not save us
but they will be there if we are truly saved
if we have faith the result will be works
they then often understand
for they sincerely believed
trying not to be hypocrites and teach faith
without works
but when i explain it they understand
works don't save you
but you will have works if you are saved
works don't save you
but if you have true faith which alone saves
then the result will be works

if we could
"repent" in that way
then we could make ourselves right before God
then we could earn our way to heaven
so maybe some just repent from the get go
and never need Jesus' blood
this would be the erroneous outcome

it is hard since the 2 are so close together
there is a sure distinction though
we have faith by which we are saved by the
grace of Christ
then after that works result
which do not save us
but will certainly be there is we are saved

this repentance therefore
cannot refer to
changing ones life to perfection morally
but to surrendering
ones heart
saying you can have my life
now take it
not saying I am now perfect
and will now come before you righteous
but saying Jesus
I am ready to do it your way
now here is all of me
take it by Your power
and give me grace to give it
it is our choice
it is His power
it is our surrender
it is His transforming grace
He gives us a new heart
we become children of God
we are born again
with a new nature
then that new nature
can now live a life repented from the old
only the Holy Spirit can kill the flesh
only the new man can live a new life
only the good new man can live a good life
Do you agree?

This discussion has been very helpful! I would recommend everbody to read every page of Michael Pearl's Repentance book. Faith preceeds Repentance... Repentance is towards God.

Doug

LOGIC said: Know, that was love.
After Jesus called him, Lazarus was able.

I GOT THAT!

THANK YOU!

Doug Renz stated Faith preceeds Repentance... Repentance is towards God.