Interpreting the life of Jacob was he rebellious and judged or obedient and blessed? (more thorough)

I have been thinking over the OT and all the pictures and types in them and seeking to gain further understanding.

I have for sometime been a bit confused over the life of Jacob.

I have been taught that he was rebellious and so was judged and so forth.

Some things did not sit well with me though.

I think I have come to some more clarity though I am not 100%.

I thought to myself why would he be judged for grabbing Esau's foot to come out first when it was God's plan to have Jacob first. Or why would his plotting with his mother be judged when it was his rightfully. Or why would he be judged with 2 wives when in fact the one he did not love as much bore him children and was a good wife was it not just their father who was evil. If Jacob was judged then why was his flock blessed. Jacob wrestled with God/Angel yes, but was he judged did not Esau receive him, and did Jacob do it knowingly?

I thought over the life of Isaac. It seemed as if Isaac had it easy his father Abraham sent a servant to fetch his bride and while he was meditating in the field his wife was brought to him. The I thought of Jacob who had to work for years. However, is being persecuted by Esau, deceived by his wives father though overcoming with good, a curse? Do not we as Christians get tried like this? Is this not the cross life of Christ? I know Isaac did not seem to have it like this with his wife, but still there was a cross life in prayer and was he not offered up to be sacrificed.

So, I am not so sure Jacob was rebellious. I am not so sure he was cursed. I think it may be slander to say he was evil. Look at the overwhelming evidence of his saintliness! Should we say of one of the patriarchs that he was a failure when truly to me it seems he did great exploits of righteousness. Was it not told that he was not to be touched because he was God's.

I am also pondering the situation with Esau. Maybe there is something there as a type though I don't understand yet. First, Esau wanted to kill him then later he received him. Is this a cross and resurrection thing. Or a first coming to second coming contrast. Or making even your enemies your friends or what. I think there is something. Maybe Jacob thought Esau would kill him, but God wrestled with him to bring him to Esau to show that there would be peace that the flesh "Esau" had been crucified with it's lusts.

What say you?...

[edit] (a more thorough statement in the following)

So, I have been thinking over the types and what not in the OT. Praying to God that he would open my understanding to more of these foreshadowings and things I may have missed.

I began to think of how a wife was brought to Isaac from his fathers servant while he was meditating in the field. Then I thought of how Jacob had to work like crazy and go through wild trials to get his wife even weeping when he first kissed her. I have been of the interpretation that I have heard that Jacob was rebellious so God had to judge him sometimes and break him. Whereas Isaac was just a good guy and had it easy. I was however confused over this for a while because it just wouldn't settle. I wonder if Jacob really was bad I mean I know many errors of saints are shown in the Scriptures, but sometimes just much good. I then thought you know what maybe Jacob wasn't all that bad. I mean not every Christian gets it easy like Isaac that could have just been an instance and even a picture of Christ' bride being brought to him. The Christian can often though not doing any wrong or like Christ not doing any wrong need to be tried and yet love. So also, I thought with Jacob. Sure he was deceived and had to work like crazy, but that does not necessarily mean he did anything wrong. Also, when Jacob who many call rebellious was lied to did he revile in return? No, he blessed and served. This is Christ likeness and a great deal so. I then went on to think more so into the latter texts wherein he deals with Esau and what not and will try to further prove my case. Since I have not given a ton of reason though some yet mostly statements without many proofs.

Though this is not exhaustive or strongly thought through I will just jot down some of the things I have mused on.

Jacob grabbed Esaus ankle on the way out and so got his name. Some say you see he is trying to cheat. I will more say he is competing and there is nothing wrong with that. Some will even say he is trying to usurp. I will say usurping in and of itself is not wrong. David by the call of God usurped kingdoms for power by the sword.

Jacob offered Esau food for his birthright. Was this wrong? No I don't think so. I think that Esau just cared more for fleshly things then godly things. For what does it say in Hebrews of him?

Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

You will see from this that Esau was just a sinful man. Jacob merely exposed Esau's sinfulness and showed that Esau was no fit person for the birthright. It was not as if Jacob stole the birth right it was Esau's choice. The sin here is not Jacob's, but it is shown to be Esau's here in this text.

Or what of the fact that Jacob deceived his father and out maneuvered Esau for the blessing? Was this sin? Was this deception? Well, first of Jacob didn't want to do it at first and was talked into it by his mother and she said she would take the fault. It is a righteous man who does not want to do wrong even in great opportunity. Yet, think of this did Jacob really steal anything? No. Remember Esau had already sold it so it was rightfully Jacob's. Then think of this of the harlot Rahab. She lied to hide the spies and it was accounted to her as faith and righteousness. So, also, Jacob under honest circumstances out witted his enemies.

Also, Jacob didn't even say he was wrong in doing it. He said paraphrased, "If I am caught I will 'seem' a deceiver and he will bring a curse upon me". Not that he was really an evil deceiver for what he was doing was right. Not that God would judge him, but that his father would curse him.

Or you can point to the fact that Isaac and Rebekah were told by God previously who these children would be. Isaac was in the flesh therefore looking at Esau and wanting to give him the birthright because he was stronger even though he was sinful. As Abraham wanted to have a child by his maid instead of by the promise of God impossibly through his aged wife. Or as Samuel would have chosen another one of Jesse's sons then David, but the Lord does not see as man sees for the Lord looks at the heart.

God does not always respect the natural first born but the one who is worthy in the heart. Not the one who is great but the one who is weak. Not the one who is fleshly but the one who is spiritual. This is a perfect picture of that.

I have already mentioned Isaac's dealing with his wife in light of Jacob. Now how about Esau in light of Jacob. Esau took non Israelite brides which vexed his mother and more then one. Isaac however waited and so much so that he wept when he found one of his kin. Sure he had 2 brides but it wasn't even his choice, but he did the even greater good in keeping the one he did not want. Some would think that in "polygamy" that the best thing to do is to divorce all wives except for the first when becoming a Christian. I would say though that that is not always the best thing for those women especially in that culture context. So Jacob in not wanting her nor wanting 2 wives kept her anyways and cared for her.

Some say Jacob was deceived because he was a deceiver by Laban the father of his 2 wives. This I think not to be true. Jacob was deceived by Laban one because Laban was evil. Note also that though Jacob got a bride he did not want and had to work an extra 7 years it turned into a Romans 8:28;

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Though evil occurred to Jacob it turned out for good. First, many children were born to him though not many from the other. Second, in Leah's debasement God worked and gave her praise namely Judah who ended up being in the lineage of Christ. So, you will see that this even evil turned out for good to Jacob.

Not only that, but when reviled by Laban Jacob did not curse back but blessed. He worked hard and multiplied Laban's well being and God was with him. Then in the end Jacob even had his own wealth. And even when Laban wanted to attack Jacob he couldn't for God protected him.

Or think even before all this. When Jacob fleeing from persecution like a martyr. Slept and had a dream of a ladder to heaven ect. What was this? This was the Gospel this was Christ as Jesus later stated. So Jacob was blessed all this time. God was showing him all this because he was seeking to be right before God. Jacob even vowed at that point to worship God and so we have Bethel.

Or some will say you will see later Jacob wrestling with God/Angel. Therefore he was disobedient to God. I will say this in light of all the previous body of evidence that this was not totally the case. Sure maybe Jacob needed to be taught obedience by the things he suffered, but so did Jesus and it was not sin. I do not quite know how to interpret that whole part yet. I will say though that Esau did not try to kill him. It says in the Proverbs that a righteous man makes even his enemies to be his friends. Or maybe Jacob was not sure if he would be killed or not and God had to teach him trust. As Jacob vowed if you will bring me back safe to my fathers house then you will be my God. In making Esau not attack him God I believe was fulfilling Jacob prayer. So I am not sure this was a conscience act of disobedience, but just an innocent lesson of growth.

Furthermore, as people say he was wrestling with God and so disobedient. It may have been a trial of faith for God had told him he would be back in his land and even angels met him before seeing Esau and who knows what they said maybe the same. Jacob was afraid, but what was this wrestling for? Was it to get away in fear? No, it was to get a blessing to get past Esau somehow. You see Jacob was not saying let me out of here he was wrestling and pleading with God to bless him like Jesus in Gethsemane. For after what was it told of him? You shall no longer be called Jacob or one who struggles to get ahead but Israel one who rules as a prince and has power with God and men! Now that is a blessing not a cursing what he was doing in wrestling was not wrong. Maybe it was right for him to fear until he prayed it through. A mighty man of prayer was this Jacob.

The list goes on.

So, I think you will see, that Jacob was not a man who was rebellious, to judgment, to brokenness. But, a man who was zealous for righteousness, a man who loved his enemies, who was wise and did great exploits in God. Again, I know that faults are often seen in saint in the Scripture but not always. Think of Joseph or Daniel. These men were "excellent" this was a testimony of how great God can make men to be. There life was marked with mostly abundant good. Some will even say that Joseph was sinning and so made his brother mad. This is emphatically not the case. Joseph is a picture of Christ. He was anointed and favored by the father because of his righteousness and his brother lack thereof. He was cast into a pit depicting death. Later he was on top of the world in Egypt and saved Israel and restored his brothers. All this Christ will do. Joseph was not proud he was anointed and favored and evil men hate that and therefore persecute. Let us not cast slander and accusation on these Patriarchs of God who bore much fruit as a testimony and lest the pictures which God has given us of the Gospel be skewed.

So I think that in part the life of Jacob was a picture of Christ and us who will serve God and be persecuted and tried and yet come through doing great good not having it always easy, but God works all things out for good.

hi, he was a usurper and he was blessed... put that in your religeous box...lol ... his name was changed to Israel after his repentence butGod is not ashamed to be known as the Gof of abraham , isaac, and JACOB.jimp

Yes, but, just because he usurped something does not mean that he evily usurped something.

Think of Rahab who lied to hide the spies and it was accounted to her as faith.

Or what is it to grab ones ankle. Is it wrong to take power over another? There is no sin in that. Though the odds were against Jacob both in the womb and for the blessing Jacob strove forward and went for what was his.

Was Jacob rebellious and judged or obedient and blessed?

Both. Ultimately he was a blessed man. This is the washout of his life, a man of God, a man of trust, a man who God used not only while he was alive, but after he departed this life. There was judgment in his life however. The deceiver was deceived. Although he was not perfect in many areas, it was his overarching faith, love, and obedience that characterized his life and God's upholding of him. God looked into his heart, meaning deeply into the character of his very soul.

I'm not so sure he was judged. I'm not so sure there is any evil on his part. It would seem that he more so has an exemplary life like Joseph or Daniel. Once again as for deceiving Rahab also deceived those who would seek out the spies and it was accounted to her as faith. It would seem that he is recorded for doing no evil, but abundant good through and through and even when taken advantage of by his wives father it turns out for good and he in turn blesses.

The Scriptures are filled with incidents of people who fell short of perfect behaviours. This is in contrast to Jesus of whom there was absolutely nothing done in error. His behaviours were perfect. The stories of God's people illustrate how all are in need of a savior, how God can and will redeem a sinner and still use him.

I would guess there is little in current human life that one cannot find a counterpart in the Scriptures and get some inspiration.

Do we not see the story of God's mercy, his loving kindness in face of man's rebellion, disobedience? What was true thousands of years ago is still true today - human nature has not changed and neither has God's nature. Awesome, don't you think?

This is the story: of God redeeming fallen mankind and bring them to himself. Some were scoundrels, to be sure. Some repented and others did not. And therein lies the appeal of these Bible stories. Sounds like modern life, does it not?

That is the lesson.

ginnyrose

EDIT: Basically the scriptures is the history of God dealing with fallen mankind who get all twisted up in knots and He redeeming them to himself. In reading these Bible stories one needs to focus on God, how he dealt with these people and then see what lesson this story teaches us about God. Simple.

Thank you for your input.

I am still yet to see any incidents wherein he did evil or was judged. The only thing that comes close is him wrestling with an angel, but no one knows if he thought he were going against the will of God.

Not all people's lives in the Scriptures are riddled with sin.

Think of Daniel how much of his error is shown? In contrast his righteousness is shown his exploits, and his wise heart in God, it is trying to show the exceeding good that he did.

Or think of Joseph what wrong is shown of him? I don't see any wrong shown in him. Much of the reason is probably because he is a picture of Christ and a foreshadow. Some will say that he was stuck up and so therefore caused his brother to persecute him. Do you see the error in this? Joseph as a picture of Christ was anointed among the brethren and favored by the father and righteous, therefore he was hated and pictorally killed by being in the pit, then he ended up saving Israel by being in charge in Egypt wherein he met his brothers and wept as a pic of the second coming. So you see Joseph did not sin if he did the foreshadowing would be ruined.

I know that men are in the Bible shows to have faults here and there, but sometimes it is not recorded. Specifically in the life of Jacob I don't see it.

Yes, it is true that God willed for Jacob to suffer.

This does not mean that it was judgment. It was more like the sufferings of Christ.

Jacob did suffer with being deceived, having 2 wives, but for those who love God and are called according to His purpose God works all things our for good. Though Jacob had Leah she gave birth to Judah who in turn was in the lineage of Christ.

So, there seems to be no proof that Jacob was a life of rebellion to judgment but of obedience and suffering like Christ.

So far most of the posts here are not giving reason why they think Jacob was rebellious. And are merely saying so. There were a couple instances, but I believe I answered those.

For instance the name Jacob mean usurper. I then said you can righteously usurp. Sure Jacob grabbed an ankle to get out first. But King David was righteous and by the calling of God struck armies for power. So there is nothing wrong with usurping in and of itself. Or again Rahab the harlot lied to hide the spies and it was accounted to her for righteousness.

The life of Jacob seems to be one wherein he had to labor for what He got in righteousness. And all the while he was being wrongfully persecuted and yet enduring and not striking back. It was Jacobs right to grab the ankle because it was his calling and it was his hustle. It was right for Jacob to deceive Isaac and Esau because they were seeking to be unjust and give the blessing to Esau. Jacob was right when he offered food to Esau who was so unrighteous that he would sell his birthright for the flesh it was right for Jacob to expose that sin. After that there are not even seeming evils. Jacob was deceived by his wives father and he did not strike back, but served and blessed back. He was a righteous man.

Not a man of failure, but a man who did great righteous acts aboundingly.

So, I have been thinking over the types and what not in the OT. Praying to God that he would open my understanding to more of these foreshadowings and things I may have missed.

I began to think of how a wife was brought to Isaac from his fathers servant while he was meditating in the field. Then I thought of how Jacob had to work like crazy and go through wild trials to get his wife even weeping when he first kissed her. I have been of the interpretation that I have heard that Jacob was rebellious so God had to judge him sometimes and break him. Whereas Isaac was just a good guy and had it easy. I was however confused over this for a while because it just wouldn't settle. I wonder if Jacob really was bad I mean I know many errors of saints are shown in the Scriptures, but sometimes just much good. I then thought you know what maybe Jacob wasn't all that bad. I mean not every Christian gets it easy like Isaac that could have just been an instance and even a picture of Christ' bride being brought to him. The Christian can often though not doing any wrong or like Christ not doing any wrong need to be tried and yet love. So also, I thought with Jacob. Sure he was deceived and had to work like crazy, but that does not necessarily mean he did anything wrong. Also, when Jacob who many call rebellious was lied to did he revile in return? No, he blessed and served. This is Christ likeness and a great deal so. I then went on to think more so into the latter texts wherein he deals with Esau and what not and will try to further prove my case. Since I have not given a ton of reason though some yet mostly statements without many proofs.

Though this is not exhaustive or strongly thought through I will just jot down some of the things I have mused on.

Jacob grabbed Esaus ankle on the way out and so got his name. Some say you see he is trying to cheat. I will more say he is competing and there is nothing wrong with that. Some will even say he is trying to usurp. I will say usurping in and of itself is not wrong. David by the call of God usurped kingdoms for power by the sword.

Jacob offered Esau food for his birthright. Was this wrong? No I don't think so. I think that Esau just cared more for fleshly things then godly things. For what does it say in Hebrews of him?

Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

You will see from this that Esau was just a sinful man. Jacob merely exposed Esau's sinfulness and showed that Esau was no fit person for the birthright. It was not as if Jacob stole the birth right it was Esau's choice. The sin here is not Jacob's, but it is shown to be Esau's here in this text.

Or what of the fact that Jacob deceived his father and out maneuvered Esau for the blessing? Was this sin? Was this deception? Well, first of Jacob didn't want to do it at first and was talked into it by his mother and she said she would take the fault. It is a righteous man who does not want to do wrong even in great opportunity. Yet, think of this did Jacob really steal anything? No. Remember Esau had already sold it so it was rightfully Jacob's. Then think of this of the harlot Rahab. She lied to hide the spies and it was accounted to her as faith and righteousness. So, also, Jacob under honest circumstances out witted his enemies.

God does not always respect the natural first born but the one who is worthy in the heart. Not the one who is great but the one who is weak. Not the one who is fleshly but the one who is spiritual. This is a perfect picture of that.

I have already mentioned Isaac's dealing with his wife in light of Jacob. Now how about Esau in light of Jacob. Esau took non Israelite brides which vexed his mother and more then one. Isaac however waited and so much so that he wept when he found one of his kin. Sure he had 2 brides but it wasn't even his choice, but he did the even greater good in keeping the one he did not want. Some would think that in "polygamy" that the best thing to do is to divorce all wives except for the first when becoming a Christian. I would say though that that is not always the best thing for those women especially in that culture context. So Jacob in not wanting her nor wanting 2 wives kept her anyways and cared for her.

Some say Jacob was deceived because he was a deceiver by Laban the father of his 2 wives. This I think not to be true. Jacob was deceived by Laban one because Laban was evil. Note also that though Jacob got a bride he did not want and had to work an extra 7 years it turned into a Romans 8:28;

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Though evil occurred to Jacob it turned out for good. First, many children were born to him though not many from the other. Second, in Leah's debasement God worked and gave her praise namely Judah who ended up being in the lineage of Christ. So, you will see that this even evil turned out for good to Jacob.

Not only that, but when reviled by Laban Jacob did not curse back but blessed. He worked hard and multiplied Laban's well being and God was with him. Then in the end Jacob even had his own wealth. And even when Laban wanted to attack Jacob he couldn't for God protected him.

Or think even before all this. When Jacob fleeing from persecution like a martyr. Slept and had a dream of a ladder to heaven ect. What was this? This was the Gospel this was Christ as Jesus later stated. So Jacob was blessed all this time. God was showing him all this because he was seeking to be right before God. Jacob even vowed at that point to worship God and so we have Bethel.

Or some will say you will see later Jacob wrestling with God/Angel. Therefore he was disobedient to God. I will say this in light of all the previous body of evidence that this was not totally the case. Sure maybe Jacob needed to be taught obedience by the things he suffered, but so did Jesus and it was not sin. I do not quite know how to interpret that whole part yet. I will say though that Esau did not try to kill him. It says in the Proverbs that a righteous man makes even his enemies to be his friends. Or maybe Jacob was not sure if he would be killed or not and God had to teach him trust. As Jacob vowed if you will bring me back safe to my fathers house then you will be my God. In making Esau not attack him God I believe was fulfilling Jacob prayer. So I am not sure this was a conscience act of disobedience, but just an innocent lesson of growth.

Furthermore, as people say he was wrestling with God and so disobedient. It may have been a trial of faith for God had told him he would be back in his land and even angels met him before seeing Esau and who knows what they said maybe the same. Jacob was afraid, but what was this wrestling for? Was it to get away in fear? No, it was to get a blessing to get past Esau somehow. You see Jacob was not saying let me out of here he was wrestling and pleading with God to bless him like Jesus in Gethsemane. For after what was it told of him? You shall no longer be called Jacob or one who struggles to get ahead but Israel one who rules as a prince and has power with God and men! Now that is a blessing not a cursing what he was doing in wrestling was not wrong. Maybe it was right for him to fear until he prayed it through. A mighty man of prayer was this Jacob.

The list goes on.

So, I think you will see, that Jacob was not a man who was rebellious, to judgment, to brokenness. But, a man who was zealous for righteousness, a man who loved his enemies, who was wise and did great exploits in God. Again, I know that faults are often seen in saint in the Scripture but not always. Think of Joseph or Daniel. These men were "excellent" this was a testimony of how great God can make men to be. There life was marked with mostly abundant good. Some will even say that Joseph was sinning and so made his brother mad. This is emphatically not the case. Joseph is a picture of Christ. He was anointed and favored by the father because of his righteousness and his brother lack thereof. He was cast into a pit depicting death. Later he was on top of the world in Egypt and saved Israel and restored his brothers. All this Christ will do. Joseph was not proud he was anointed and favored and evil men hate that and therefore persecute. Let us not cast slander and accusation on these Patriarchs of God who bore much fruit as a testimony and lest the pictures which God has given us of the Gospel be skewed.

So I think that in part the life of Jacob was a picture of Christ and us who will serve God and be persecuted and tried and yet come through doing great good not having it always easy, but God works all things out for good.

I am still yet to see any incidents wherein he did evil or was judged.

It is a sin to deceive. God rebuked Abraham for deceiving or telling a half truth. Jacob deceived his father and told none of the truth. He said that he was Esau, an outright lie. The judgment later came in the form of "the deceiver was deceived". God often uses this type of retribution in a person's life. "Your own sins will return upon your head." So Jacob was deceived by Laban and got Leah. Jacob could have waited to receive the birthright God promised him, but instead he extorted it from his brother. Therefore, Laban later extorted Jacob's labors as a shepherd, which Jacob clearly complains of. Beyond this, I am not sure if there is much else. I never saw that wrestling with God was any form of being judged. Rather, both a lesson and a blessing came from it.

As I earlier mentioned. Rahab the ex harlot lied and deceived in order to hide the spies. It was accounted to her as faith and she was spared. So this was actually counted as "good"

In the same way it was not as if Jacob had stole something. Esau sold his birthright because he was a sinner as you will see in Hebrews. So Jacob deceived, but it was for righteousness like Rahab since the birthright was rightfully his.

Or even think of Corrie Ten Boom who lied to hide the Jews.

Or think of military maneuvers in the OT wherein one would by tactics and maybe not words deceive the other in battle for God.

Not to be in any way capricious, divisive, factious or in any way VARIANT ... nor to be dis-respecting - to the original poster! But does Jacob's life need "interpretation" What i mean is: His life is chronicled in black and white - and in ink and paper. (as a record to us) for all to read, have, and to know ( its a record of what happened - and of what is bible history, and of the truth in documented form )

I personally dont think interpretors are needed!!

Some may mis-apply the meaning here and there, or have a differing view or slant on this and that as the events unfolded ... but at the end of the day (when push comes to shove) ...its fairly plain language both to read, absorb, process and take in ( even skeptics and cynics can read it and to a certain accurate degree deduct certain facts, truths, and process information taken from the book) (Genesis)

Contrarywise though: I would say the book of Hebrews and parts of Romans need more interpretation and are much harder going (with peter saying in his 2nd epistle that many things pAUL WROTE AS HARD TO BE UNDERSTOOD) as understanding OF SCRIPTURE doesnt always come by the intellect!!! but by revelation, AND by the holy ghost, by the comforter who will guide us into all truth. And by the unction and by the anointing that abides in you ... and ye have (no need) therefore that any man teach you, but the same holy ghost that dwells IN you ...ShALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS...

To say it another way: Its like reading the book of chronicles or the book of kings or the book of Acts... these books dont seek (to teach us ) insomuch as they give coverage to the events as they unfolded ( so we have a witness and we have a record, and an account of things -- as they occurred and unfolded ) its called the documentaion of chuch history ... i believe !!!

Question: Can God can judge the world in righteousness: If he doesnt have a record? - and he doesnt keep good books?? - and the necessary events are all tabled and chronicled as a witness and record - of what happened. Therefore the world is without excuse. If he (God) has a record and we have that same record too!?

Case in point Brethren: The book of acts doesnt seek to teach us doctrine -- insomuch as it seeks to chronicle the events and acts of the apostles as they occured and were unfolded!

Case in point again: And harking back briefly now to my article on the (10) most debated topics! people have wondered in (debate form) why did david pick up 5 stones instead of 4 stones or 6 stones or why not 10 stones to slay Goliath????

Was it because Goliath had 4 other brothers or does it have some mystical spiritual meaning or was it meant to be a type or shadow to us ???

Well i could respond by to those questions by saying: who cares?? whether those were the reasons (or) not? but for the sake of not coming across beligerant or disrespectful to anyone who has thought or wondered that. I will say ( In my view) the main reason given is: Is simply because God has to have (a record) ( a witness ) of the events? Hence he told prophets at times to write an large scrolls and in ezekiel chapter nine the man came to record with ink and paper also before the slaughter took place in Israel! its recorded so bible history is 100% accurate and no one can fault his ( God's ) RECORD !!! of said events. Or else hOW CAN God judge the world? and theose gentiles of the old testament -- if he (God) doesnt keep records and books ?? For instance and example: It is no different to a court of law ... without witnesses how can you judge or pass sentence on someone? They could not crucify Jesus at the first - for this selfsame reason ... because the witnesses (that witnessed ) against him -- there testimony or account of things did not agree - with one another. However Once they found witnesses in agreement -- they believed they had enough evidence (then to proceeed) and convict him of threatening to demolish the Jewish temple (destroy this temple and in 3 days and i raise it again ) was used against him ( Jesus ) in the quoting him (out-of-context). To then nail the Son-of-God (by putting him to death)

No pun intended.

The Point is: It's not always a case of teaching or of doctrine, or of interpretation!! Insomuch as it is simply a documented piece of history, And a record for all humanity to see, to behold and to have a copy of the TRUTH ...and of what accurately took mplace and occurred ( THY WORD IS TRUTH ) O'Lord Amen and Amen

There is great profit in searching out right judgement of Jacob.

Many condemn him as an evil, disobedient man concerning the account of Issac and Esau.

But it wasnt even Jacob's idea.
Rebecca instigated it and told Jacbob she'd take the curse herself if Issac so chose.

God had told Rebecca that 2 nations were in her womb and the older would serve the younger. Now Issac, in his disobedience (he had to have known) wanted to give what God intended for Jacob to Esau.

Rebecca had about an hour or two, give or take, to do her part and see that what God had told her was to happen would actually happen.

Also, the blessing had to come from a free will or it wouldn't be a blessing at all. Rebecca, being a godly woman like Sarah, wouldn't usurp Issac's authority and contend with him, but rather, it seems, used the only means possible to bring about God's plans.

Yes many, say, 'they all should've sat on their hands and done nothing proving their great faith in God'. I disagree. Faith without works is dead. Rebecca and Jacob had faith in God's command and it worked out exactly how it was supposed to. The blessing was given to Jacob freely, and Israel did not fall servant to Edom. As Issac said, the blessings cannot be taken back.

For those that indict Jacob and Rebecca as sinful, faithless, wicked etc, that's fine. I try to teach the body to delve a little deeper into God's judgements.

As Von Bonhoeffer said, crazy times call for crazy action. Sometimes we don't have the convinience of normal circumstance.

There are many hard judgements in the bible. We will do well if learn to judge right from scripture, and maybe better amongst ourselves as well.

Sonofthunder,

I understand what you are saying and I agree with you to an extent.

I would say that though Paul's writing are the only ones actually called "hard" that there are other texts that are. I mean most I would say aren't for readership. However, there are certain parts for certain reasons.

Reasons like cultural context, translation, or some ideological difficulties like this one. Or think of the fact that many prophecies have double fulfillment and such.

There is also the statement that the New is in the Old concealed. And the Old is in the New revealed. So, there are things in the OT that we have to have eyes and ears to hear. There are many types and foreshadowing and such.

Even though some texts are narratives of historical events those events all have teaching in them as examples. You will read in the NT of the things in the OT happening to us to teach us as examples.

I think there can be extremes in these interpretations, but there can also be extremes in not interpreting.

Another word I would use for interpreting would be rightly dividing the word, or explaining. You read read in the OT how that the Elders when reading the Law would explain it to the people.

I am just saying that some have a wrong understanding of it and that there is profit in understanding it right.

The Apostles often used types in the OT to explain things like Ishmael being the law and Isaac promise by faith.

The last thing I think I would say is that I not only like to learn from these things, but I find a wonder and glory in searching out God's word. Finding those things He has done so poetically. Or so mysteriously and majestically. I love when He talks to me and when I can hear His word rightfully for it is precious to me. The word is so deep because the Author is so marvelous. No man could have written this book and things like types and what not are astonishing.

p.s. You may know this and probably do and not in a hard way, but the name sonofthunder is scripturally a very bad one. Jesus harshly rebuked those certain disciples in calling them that.

Imnowhere,

Amen.

Those are true and good thoughts.

It is profitable.

In remarking that Rebeccah and Isaac were told of their children I forgot to put that part. Isaac was in the flesh. He saw Esau and saw that he was strong in the flesh and so chose him as Samuel would have chose the other brothers then David or Abraham through a handmaiden then an old Sarah.

Also, the thought of sitting on hands but instead doing something is very true.

As for crazy times call for crazy measures I also think that is very true and there is more for me to think on that. I would say though as I was saying that I think Scripturally for my previous reasons that outwitting someone is not wrong if it is for the right purpose. It is one to wrestle with and I think that is the main controversy and the reason for the false interpretation of the life of Jacob, but I think it to be Biblical.

I think the main central turning issue on this is whether lying is okay for right purposes.

Well I cited Rahab.

I have thought more over the text. Jacob said he was afraid that he would 'seem' a deceiver and be cursed by his father not God.

Was it okay for Corrie Ten Boom to lie?

Was it okay but not God's best?

Or when the armies of the Lord would deceive the other though not verbally?

Or remember when Jesus was with his brother and they asked him if he were going to the feast and he didn't answer them openly and later went to the feast when they did not know.

What are your thoughts?

When I saw this thread, I thought like sonofthunder that it was basically a useless discussion, because Jacob was all of those things (rebellious and judged or obedient and blessed) at different points in his life. He was human and sinful like all of us, but used of God for a divine purpose.

However, the last few posts have taken a sudden dangerous twist that frightens me.

anonymity wrote:
I think the main central turning issue on this is whether lying is okay for right purposes.

Well I cited Rahab.

I have thought more over the text. Jacob said he was afraid that he would 'seem' a deceiver and be cursed by his father not God.

Was it okay for Corrie Ten Boom to lie?

Was it okay but not God's best?

Or when the armies of the Lord would deceive the other though not verbally?

Or remember when Jesus was with his brother and they asked him if he were going to the feast and he didn't answer them openly and later went to the feast when they did not know.

What are your thoughts?

You are hinting at the idea that lying or being dishonest or untruthful might be all right for a Christian under certain circumstances. You mentioned Jacob, Rahab, then Corrie Ten Boom, and finally you have the temerity to include the Lord Jesus, implying by the context that he, like them lied at one time.

First, let me say that I find your inclusion of the Lord Jesus Christ in your post about liars very distasteful and irreverent. He did not lie and could never lie. The Lord Jesus was without sin as the Bible says, unless you dare to cast doubt on scripture also.

Secondly, I don't for a second believe that the lies of those Biblical characters and Corrie Ten Boom were encouraged by God in any way. Rahab's faith was commended for welcoming the spies, not for lying about them (Heb 11:31). Nothing is impossible with God, and He could easily have achieved His purpose without those lies. As weak and sinful humans, we can relate to those people and understand how they could have lied in the situations they were in. If I had been in their place, I probably would have caved in like they did. But that does not make it right.

Let us all remind ourselves of these passages from scripture:

Zec 8:16-17 "These are the things you are to do: [b]Speak the truth to each other[/b], and render true and sound judgment in your courts; do not plot evil against your neighbor, [b]and do not love to swear falsely[/b]. I hate all this,” declares the LORD.

Jn 8:44 [color=CC3300][b]You belong to your father, the devil[/b], and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, [b]for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.[/b][/color]

Col 3:9-10 [b]Do not lie to each other[/b], since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

Rev 22:13-15 [color=CC3300]"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and [b]everyone who loves and practices falsehood[/b]."[/color]

[b]Lying is a sin.[/b]

In Christ's love,
Leo

I wasn't saying that Jesus lied.

As for what you quote it is true that we should not lie. All those verse of course say that. None of them however specifically say that we cannot out wit for righteous purposes.

So you would rather had Rahab not say the spies were not there?

You would rather Ten Boom not say the Jews were not there?

What of David in war? Using deceiving tactics to overcome his enemies? Is this lying then yet without words?

As for what you quote it is true that we should not lie. All those verse of course say that. None of them however specifically say that we cannot out wit for righteous purposes. So you would rather had Rahab not say the spies were not there? You would rather Ten Boom not say the Jews were not there? What of David in war? Using deceiving tactics to overcome his enemies? Is this lying then yet without words?

I would rather that we accept God's teaching humbly as little children, and stop searching for loopholes like lawyers.

I understand what you are saying. I am not trying to be a lawyer.

I am saying however that what Rahab and others did was not really a "lie" in the most specific sense as a definition.

Lets say for instance David was sword fighting. He fakes like hes gonna go right, but he goes left. This is deception. It is a lie by action. I believe that God ordained for his enemies to be deceived.

So in light of this I would say that it was deception but not evil deception as is called Biblically a sin.

So though David with his deceptive actions was not verbal it is still just as much deception as anything else maybe more so because it was acted out physically.

Rahab, the harlot..this story befuddles many people who want to make sense of the WORD because this is called an act of faith. How can one justify a lie?

This is one incident in the WORD in which it does not make sense. Or, how about the one where Jacob exposed his sheep - read Genesis 30:37-43. This act [i]is[/i] strange. Sounds occultic, don't you think?

When we focus primarily on man's deeds, we see a fallen creature that was not godly, did foolish things, many of whom did not make sense at all. And a few lied and we know what Revelation says about lying so how do you reconcile this with the Rahab's place in the hall of fame in Hebrews 11:31? May I suggest that when we study the lives of these folks we see the mercy of God in action, how he redeems terrible situations for himself? How he will use questionable and even sinful behaviours to his honor and glory? Is it to illustrate that no behaviours goes to waste in God's economy?

When I think of this principle, my mind always goes to the Holocaust where eleven million people perished. Was this God's will? why did he allow it? May I suggest that His name was honored and glorified through this atrocity? Sure, many people were sent [prematurely] to hell, but they would have gone there anyways, if not sooner, then later. But did God not use this event to reach souls? If they would not have experienced this horrific acts, they may have been lost for all of time and eternity? Ever read Corrie ten Boom's story? all of her books? Ever noticed how she was a person working away for so many years making watches, teaching youth and handicapped persons but it was her ministry after the war that got people's attention. It was birthed by faithfulness in the small things then and matured during the experience of WW2's terrible trials...

Looking at events from God's perspective teaches us more then looking at God from our life's experiences.

My thoughts...
ginnyrose

Dear ginnyrose,

by ginnyrose on 2009/9/9 8:04:25 Rahab, the harlot..this story befuddles many people who want to make sense of the WORD because this is called an act of faith. How can one justify a lie?

Heb 11:31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

In Christ's Love,
Leo

Ex 1:15 ¶ And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:
16 And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.
17 But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.
18 And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?
19 And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.
20 Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.
21 And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses.

Leograce, And what of the midwives? Or...

1 Kings 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

And this one too. How do you make this fit with your posts explaining God's judgement and how he never would approve of deception?

Dear imnowhere,

I'll admit I'm stumped for an answer to your post above. I confess my inadequacy in deciphering God's nature to this detail. My understanding of Him is severely limited, so I cannot respond.

Please enlighten me, and others who may be in the same position. What is God like in the light of these verses?

In Christ's Love,
Leo

Dear imnowhere,

I prayed for the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit as I re-read those verses you quoted that seem to imply that lying or deception is sometimes acceptable to God. I re-read them knowing deep in my heart that God is a Holy God, and that lying is a sin, and that therefore one would have nothing to do with the other, for an overwhelming majority of verses in the Bible tell us this.

[b]Regarding the midwives:[/b]

Ex 1:17-21 [i]The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live[/i]. Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, “Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?” The midwives answered Pharaoh, “Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive.” [i]So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous. And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own[/i].

In the light of God's pure holiness, as taught clearly in scripture, it becomes easy to recognize that the midwives were blessed by God because of their fear of Him, not because they lied to Pharaoh.

[b]Regarding Ahab and Jehoshaphat:[/b]

1Ki 22:19-22 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, ‘[i]Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?[/i]’ “One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’ “ ‘By what means?’ the LORD asked. “ ‘[i]I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets[/i],’ he said. “ ‘[i]You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.[/i]’

It is clear from the passage that God did not instruct anyone to lie for him. He was looking for a way to cause Ahab to attack Gilead. The devil came forth and offered to accomplish this "enticement". As in the case of Job, God allowed the devil to act.

It is a sad thing when scripture is enlisted to cast doubts on the holiness of God, and thereby open the way for the devil to tempt the faith of some believers.

IF WE TRULY BELIEVE AND HAVE FAITH IN GOD, WE WOULD KNOW HOW TO READ PAST THE AMBIGUITIES OF SOME PASSAGES TO SEE THE GLORY OF GOD WITHIN, and there would be no need to debate the matter.

In Christ's Love,
Leo

IF WE TRULY BELIEVE AND HAVE FAITH IN GOD, WE WOULD KNOW HOW TO READ PAST THE AMBIGUITIES OF SOME PASSAGES TO SEE THE GLORY OF GOD WITHIN, and there would be no need to debate the matter.

AMEN!

The incidents quoted here simply defy understanding, or my understanding. Since this is the case I do well to leave it to God. He is greater then me and I trust his judgment.

Leo, thanks for pointing out that Rahab was blessed because she "received the spies." I never noticed that before.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Leograce wrote...

In the light of God's pure holiness, as taught clearly in scripture, it becomes easy to recognize that the midwives were blessed by God because of their fear of Him, not because they lied to Pharaoh.

I don't get your response that you say is clear and easy to recognize? How did they fear God apart from lying to Pharoah in order to save the children? What did they do other than that?

A careful reading of the verse in Hebrews 11:31 will clearly show that Rahab was considered faithful for welcoming the spies, not for lying.

This also leaves questions in your teaching. The OT account from Josh 2:3-6:25 spells it out as clear as can be, that Rahab was helped out because she, instead of telling the truth and letting the 2 spies be killed, rather lied, hid the men and even planned their escape for them. Yet you say they were blessed for receiving them into the house, but not for saving their lives by lying to the king of Jericho? Had she received them into her house then handed them over to the king of Jericho to be killed, you're saying she would've ended up in Heb 11 just the same but maybe even better as she wouldn't have that nasty lie to her account that saved the lives of the 2 spies?

And lastly...

It is clear from the passage that God did not instruct anyone to lie for him. He was looking for a way to cause Ahab to attack Gilead. The devil came forth and offered to accomplish this "enticement". As in the case of Job, God allowed the devil to act.

It is a sad thing when scripture is enlisted to cast doubts on the holiness of God, and thereby open the way for the devil to tempt the faith of some believers.

It seems to me that in the text you quoted (1Ki 22:19-22), you left out the last verse (vs 23) of the context that summarizes the account, that you had to have read...

[b]1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.[/b]

Why would you leave this verse out, stopping at verse 22, then tell us it is easy to see that God had nothing to do with it, trying to hide this verse to win your argument? Then you followed up with the charge that I was trying to sadly enlist scripture to cast doubts on the holiness of God? Which of us is misusing scripture?

Nasty charge brother. It's best to keep the slanders to yourself. Maybe the teaching too for a while, unless you can let the bible speak for itself and not leave out verses that clearly contradict your thoughts and argument.

This is why I always encourage believers to not get into debate and argument until they've fully studied and are fully sure. That way they won't be tempted to defend what, in time, they see is wrong.

I agree with you that day to day in the norm, lying is wrong. I won't even go so far as to try and give situations when it's right, lest I tempt someone to sin. But from these passages, when God's people were in dire straits, the scripture account appears to hold them blameless for using deception to thwart God's enemies or bring about his plans.

If the day comes, and authorities ask me to turn in those that I know are believers, to go against God and His commands, I'll have a choice, to do as you are saying and say the truth, or otherwise. I think under such circumstance you might think otherwise yourself.

We need to pray for wisdom, faith and courage in times like that.

Dear imnowhere,

This is the third time where you have basically ignored the meaning of my posts and have twisted them in your responses to serve your own ends. It is tiresome to deal with someone like you.

[b]Regarding Ahab and Jehoshaphat[/b]

If you would just look past your dubious intent, you will see that my quote from 1Kings 22:19-22 covers the actual detailed narrative of how God acted on the matter, while verse 23 was the prophet's concluding warning to Ahab. I separated the narrative from the warning. The narrative contains the details of what occurred (God allowed -- not instructed -- the devil to do it), while the conclusion is an oversimplified summary that contains no detail.

1Ki 22:19-22 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’ “One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’ “ ‘By what means?’ the LORD asked. “ ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said. “ [size=medium][b][u][color=CC3300]‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’[/color][/u][/b][/size]

You choose to go with the conclusion and intentionally ignored the details because it serves your purpose, which is to cast doubt on God's holiness. I choose to focus on the detailed narrative because it contains the truth of the event, which is consistent with God's holiness.

[b]Regarding Rahab[/b]

In the case of Rahab,the issue at hand is why Rahab was commended as faithful. The passage in Joshua does not mention anything about her faith --- only Hebrews 11:31 ascribes faith to Rahab, and the verse reads...

[b][size=medium]Heb 11:31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, [u][color=CC3300]because she welcomed the spies[/color][/u], was not killed with those who were disobedient.[/size][/b]

But this clear statement is not enough for you. You wish to muddy the waters and then insert lying as part of Rahab's commendation in order to deceive the believers into compromising God's call to holiness.

[b]Regarding the midwives[/b]

They were rewarded because they feared God and let the boys live. But again here you would want to deceive others into believing that lying was a good thing and promote an adulterated form of holiness.

Ex 1:17-21 [size=medium][b][color=CC3300]The midwives, however, [u]feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live.[/color][/u][/b][/size] Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, “Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?” The midwives answered Pharaoh, “Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive.” So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous. And [size=medium][b][u][color=CC3300]because the midwives feared God[/color][/u][/b][/size], he gave them families of their own.

Perhaps with the larger font, the bold print, the underline and the red color, you will no longer be able to ignore the critical parts of the passages.

[b]Finally, you said:[/b]

If the day comes, and authorities ask me to turn in those that I know are believers, to go against God and His commands, I'll have a choice, to do as you are saying and say the truth, or otherwise. I think under such circumstance you might think otherwise yourself

1Co 10:13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. [i]And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.[/i]

[b]Conclusion:[/b]

God is holy, and nothing in scripture can contradict that, no matter how much you try to twist things.

I decided to respond to your post out of fear that your antics might cause some who might read it to stumble. Otherwise, I would have avoided you and your little game altogether.

Now that I have posted a clear response to your twisted insinuations, I am done with this discussion.

Leo

Your arrogant responses and your big red letters don't impress me.
When I come across someone who refuses to admit the difficulty with hard passages like this, resorts to insults and personal attacks to win, then lastly uses the classic passive-aggresive to hide behind, I have to ask, who is the one with the twisted insinuations?

The reason you don't like interacting is because I don't politely agree with everything you say. I've shown from the bible what I think are problems with your view. You don't answer the questions (thinking big red letters make you right when your answers lack substance).

In the first two cases you deny the obvious, that it was faith that caused them to do what they did to save the lives of God's people. Standing there silent as you self righteously proclaim you'd do would've sent those people to death.
And in the last case, since when does a summary lack authority to the details? The summary carries more for crying out loud! It's the final word! And the final word was that The Lord did it!

Keep your view.

But your villianizing me for maintaining a different view than your own along with all your slanders about my trying to corrupt God's holiness is beyond pathetic. How bad must you want to be right no matter what?

My response to one that disagrees would rather be to admit they are hard passages.

If this is the spirit of humility and teachableness you've been telling us all to have, I think I'll pass.

Dear imnowhere,

Why don't I like interacting with you? It's not because you don't share my views. It's because you habitually twist my meanings and try to put words in my mouth.

For example:

In the first two cases you deny the obvious, that it was faith that caused them to do what they did to save the lives of God's people. [b]Standing there silent as you self righteously proclaim you'd do would've sent those people to death.[/b]

And in the last case, since when does a summary lack authority to the details? The summary carries more for crying out loud! It's the final word! And the final word was that [b]The Lord did it![/b]

But your villianizing me for maintaining a different view than your own along with all your slanders about my trying to corrupt God's holiness is beyond pathetic. How bad must you want to be right no matter what?

Keep up the humility and dilligence in pointing out those who are intentionally trying to undermine God's holiness. Don't let superficial understanding of hard questions get in your way.