TRUE OBEDIENCE TO GOD BY GRACETRUE OBEDIENCE TO GOD BY GRACEEdited and updated from Christian Perfection by Asa Mahan. The great difficulty, which a vast majority of Christians feel, in respect to holy living, is the lack of the constant presence and influence of a child like, affection, confiding, and obedient spirit towards God,- a spirit which perpetually cries, Abba, Father, and consists in the spontaneous flow of the heart's purest and best affections towards Christ. If the mind could always be in this state, how easy it would be to avoid all sin, and perfectly to obey all the Divine requisitions! This spirit Christians often resolve to cherish. They find their resolutions, however, totally inefficient to move the heart. To remedy the difficulty, they resort to their Bibles and to prayer, and renew their resolutions with increasing earnestness. Still the heart remains comparatively unmoved; and whatever effect is produced by such means, very soon passes away, "like the morning cloud," leaving the heart the same "aching void" as before. Now, while the Christian is thus "resolving, and re-resolving," and constantly sliding back to the cheerless state from which he started, while, in spite of his efforts, he is perpetually sinking deeper and deeper in the "mire and deep waters," suppose the Divine Redeemer should pass along, and say to his weary and desponding disciple, If you will at once cease from all these vain efforts, and yield yourself up to My control, relying with implicit confidence in My ability and faithfulness, I will enter into a covenant with you, that I will, Myself, shed abroad in your heart that "perfect love which casts out all fear,"- that child like and affectionate spirit which you have vainly endeavored to induce in your own mind. I will so present the truth to your apprehension, that your heart's purest and best affections shall constantly and spontaneously flow out toward me. I will secure you in a state of perfect and perpetual obedience to every command of God, and in the full and constant fruition of His presence and love. All this I will do in perfect consistency with the full, and free, and uninterrupted exercise of your own voluntary agency. Such a message would be to the believer, "afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted," as life from the dead. This, Christian, is precisely what the Lord Jesus Christ offers to do for you, as the Mediator of the new Covenant. With the Psalmist you can say, "I will run in the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart." Christ is now ready thus to enlarge your heart, that, under the spontaneous flow of pure and perfect love, you may do the whole will of God. Till your faith is fastened upon Christ, as the life and light of the soul, as the "quickening spirit," who alone is able to breathe into your heart the breath of spiritual life, all your efforts after holiness will be vain. We need to look away from our condition and circumstances as sinners, and from our natural powers and abilities, to the provisions and promises of the grace of God. If the "riches of Christ's inheritance in the saints" includes complete obedience to God in this life, we certainly are under obligation to acquire that inheritance in all its fullness. Do you know, what has God provided for and promised to me, as a Christian? The sinner is not required to "make himself clean," or to "make to himself a new heart," in the exercise of his unaided powers, but by application to the blood of Christ, "which cleanses from all sin." The grace which purifies the heart is provided; the fountain, whose waters cleanse from sin, is set open. To this fountain the sinner is brought, and because he may descend into it, and there "wash his garments and make them white," he can fulfill the command, "Wash you, make you clean," "make to yourself a new heart and a new spirit," and "cleanse yourself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit." The sinner is able to make to himself a "new heart and a new spirit," because he can instantly avail himself of offered grace. He does literally "make to himself a new heart and a new spirit," ONLY when he yields himself up to the influence of that grace. The power to cleanse from sin lies in the blood and grace of Christ; and hence, when the sinner "purifies himself by obeying the truth through the spirit," the glory of his salvation belongs, not to him, but to Christ. 2 Peter 1:4 "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises; that by these you might be partakers of the Divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." 2 Cor. 7:1 "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." If to "escape the corruption that is in the world through lust," and to be "made partakers of the Divine nature," to "cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit," and to "perfect holiness," do not imply complete obedience, how, I ask, can that doctrine be expressed? That the Christian may be thus sanctified is the declared object for which the promises were given. Who will deny that they are adequate to this object? Unless they are thus inadequate, perfection in holiness is, in this life, practicable to the Christian. Perfection in holiness is promised to the Christian in the new covenant under which he is now placed. To present this part of the subject distinctly before the reader's mind, we will first inquire what is the old or first covenant. Exod. 34:27, 28, "And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words; for after the tenor of these words have I made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments." Deut. 9:11, 15, "And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the Lord gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant." "So I turned, and came down from the mount, and the mount burned with fire; and the two tables of the covenant were in my hands." The first, or the old covenant, then, is the moral law, that law by which we are required to "love the Lord our God with all our powers, and our neighbor as ourselves." This covenant, as we learn from Heb. 9:1-4, had annexed to it the types and shadows of the ancient dispensation. "Then verily the first covenant had" attached to it "ordinances of Divine service, and a worldly sanctuary," etc. What the new covenant is, we learn from Jer. 31:31-34, and Heb. 8:8-11, "Behold the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah; not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt (which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith the Lord); but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more." The following blessings, specifically promised in this covenant, demand our special attention: 1. A confirmed state of pure and perfect holiness, such as the first covenant, or moral law, demands "I will put my law In their inward parts, and write it in their hearts." 2. The pardon of all sin, or perfect justification "I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more." 3. The perpetual fruition of the Divine presence and favor "I will be their God, and they shall be my people." 4. The general spread of the Gospel among mankind "All shall know me." Do you see that the relations of these two covenants are the same standard of character, perfect holiness, is common to both and what the old covenant requires of Christians, the new promises to them. For example, The old covenant requires perfect holiness. Its language is, "Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord thy God;" "He that keeps the whole law, and yet offends in one point, is guilty of all." On the other hand, the new covenant promises to the believer perfect holiness. Jer. 31:32, "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." See also Heb. 8:10. Here, as above remarked, the very thing which the moral law requires is positively promised to the believer. Ezek. 36:25-27, "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them." Is it in the power of language to express the doctrine of entire sanctification, if it is not here expressed? Jer. 50:20, "In those days, and at that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found; for I will pardon them whom I reserve." What other thought, let me ask, is such language adapted to convey but this, a state of entire sanctification? Deut. 30:6, "And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that you may live." Here the perfect holiness required by the law is promised in the very words of the law itself. Again, The old covenant or moral law requires not only perfect, but perpetual holiness. Gal. 3:10, "Cursed is every one that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." The new covenant, on the other hand, promises not only perfect but perpetual holiness. Jer. 32:39, 40, "And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them. And I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from Me." If, to give to Christians one heart and one way, that they may fear God for ever, and never depart from Him, does not imply, not only perfect, but perpetual holiness, we may truly say that language cannot express that idea. Ezek. 37:23, "Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions." Every one will perceive, that if the Holy Spirit has not here given us the promise, not only of perfect, but perpetual holiness, he has made as near an approach to it as is in the power of language to make, and that, if he had designed to express that promise, no stronger language could possibly have been used. The same truth is taught with equal distinctness in Isa. 59:21, and Luke 1:74, 75, "As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord: My Spirit which is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever." "That He would grant unto us, that we, being delivered out of the hands of our enemies, might serve Him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before Him, all the days of our life." One other passage, which, if we had none others like it in the Bible, would place the doctrine under consideration upon an eternal rock. 1 Thes. 5:23, 24, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He that calls you, who also will do it." Here we have, a prayer for perfect and perpetual holiness, dictated by the direct inspiration of the Spirit of God. Who can believe that the Holy Spirit has dictated a prayer which is not "according to the will of God," and which He requires us to believe that God will never answer by the bestowment of the blessing desired of him? The new covenant, is the covenant of grace, concealed to our first parents, in the promise, "The seed of the woman shall bruise the serpent's head," more distinctly unfolded in the promise to Abraham, and brought out in all its fulness in the new dispensation. As the Mediator of this covenant, Christ, as shown in the text, and in a preceding discourse, promises to believers, on condition of their faith in him, the following blessings: 1. A confirmed state of pure and perfect holiness, such as is required by the moral law. 2. The full pardon of all sin, or entire justification. 3. The perpetual fruition of the Divine presence and favor. 4. The consequent universal prevalence of the Gospel. Such are the "riches of the glory of Christ's inheritance in the saints." Such is the "completeness of the saints in him," as the Mediator of the new covenant. Whatever the old covenant, or the moral law, requires of us, the new covenant, promises to the believer. The first covenant, for example, requires of the creature perfect and perpetual holiness. The new covenant promises to the believer perfect and perpetual holiness. Consider these passages: Jer. 32:39, 40, "And I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them and of their children after them; and I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn from them to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, and they shall not depart from me." Ezek. 36:25, "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean; from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart, also, will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments and do them." Deut. 30:6, "And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul." Jer. 50:20, "In those days, and at that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none, and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found." I Thess. 23, 24, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He that calls you, who also will do it." That Christ, as the Mediator of the new covenant, does, in these and kindred passages, promise to the believer all that the law requires of him. The object of Christ in the provisions of Divine grace. It is, to lay the foundation and provide the means for the fulfilment, in believers, of all that is promised in the new covenant; to wit, the full and entire pardon of all their sins, their redemption from all iniquity, their perfection in holiness, and their perfect and perpetual blessedness, in an eternal fruition of the Divine presence and favor. I Pet. 2:24, "Who His own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sin, might live unto righteousness; by whose stripes you were healed." Eph. v. 25-27, "Even as Christ also loved the Church, and gave himself for it, that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that He might present it to himself a glorious Church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." Tit. 2:14, "Who gave Himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works:" John 3:16, 17, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world, through Him might be saved." Rom. 8:3, "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh; that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." I John 3:5, "And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin." Such is the design of Christ, in all the provisions of Divine grace. It is to lay a broad foundation for the fulfilment, on his part, as the Mediator of the new covenant, of all the blessings promised in that covenant. This was the work which Christ undertook to accomplish, as the incarnate, atoning Savior; and, blessed be God, the work which he assumed in our behalf he finished. "I have finished the work which You gave me to do." "When Jesus, therefore, had received the vinegar, He said, It is finished; and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost." Having finished this work, He now presents Himself to us, as "able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing he ever lives to make intercession for us." We are permitted, by faith, to "behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." "And of his fulness we may all receive, and grace for grace." Listen, hearer, to the "gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth," as our high priest and intercessor, as the "Mediator of the new covenant." "I am the resurrection and the life; he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live; and whosoever lives and believeth in Me, shall never die." "Come unto me, all you that labor, and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart; and you shall find rest unto your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light." "I will give to him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely." No mater what condition we find ourselves in, there is a specific remedy provided in the Gospel for complete and total victory. Do our lusts rebel? We are told, that if "Christ be in us, the body is dead because of sin;" that "the old man is crucified with Him." and that if we will "walk in the spirit, we shall not fulfil the lusts of the flesh." Do the world and Satan entice? We are assured that "this is the victory that over comes the world, even our faith;" that "stronger is He that is in us, than he that is in the world; and that, when we have "put on the whole armor of God," we shall be able, with the shield of faith, to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one." In short, from whatever source temptation to sin arises, we are assured that God will not "suffer us to be tempted above what we are able," but will, "with the temptation, make way for our escape." With Christ within us, and these "exceeding great and precious promises" around us, we are commanded to "reckon ourselves dead indeed to sin, and alive unto God through our Lord Jesus Christ." In the presence of such facts and promises, who would dare to say to the Christian, It is impracticable for you to "cleanse yourself from all filthiness of the flesh, and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God?" We need an actual reception of Christ, and reliance upon Him for all these blessings, in all their fullness - a surrender of your whole being to Him, that He may accomplish in you all the "exceeding great and precious promises" of the new covenant. When this is done, when there is that full and implicit reliance upon Christ, for the entire fulfillment of all that He has promised, He becomes directly responsible for our full and complete redemption. "He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die." To us His word stands pledged to "put the laws of God in our minds, and write them in our hearts;" to "circumcise our heart and the heart of our seed, to love the Lord our God with all our heart and with all our soul;" to "sprinkle clean water upon us, so that we shall be clean;" to "give us one heart and one way, that we may fear God for ever; to make an everlasting covenant with us, that He will not turn away from us to do us good, but that He will put the fear of God in our hearts, that we may not depart from Him; finally, to "sanctify us wholly, and preserve our whole spirit, and soul, and body, blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." "Do you believe this now?" Can you open your mouth thus wide? Dare you ask, or expect, from your Redeemer, less than this? I hear that Redeemer asking you the question, "Do you now believe?" "According to your faith, be it unto you." Let me ask you again, Do you desire to be filled with a child like love, confiding, and obedient spirit towards God, to be brought into such a state, that your heart's purest and best affections shall spontaneously flow out towards Christ, and the "peace of God, which passes all understanding, keep your heart and mind through Christ Jesus?" Christ is now present in your heart, and ready to give all this purity and blessedness upon you, if you can believe that He is able and willing to do it for you, and will cast your entire being upon His faithfulness. To you He says, "If you can believe now, all things are possible to him that believes." Come to the fountain, and "wash your garments and make them white in the blood of the Lamb." "Christ bore your sins in his own body on the tree, that you, being dead to sin, might live unto righteousness." Why should you any longer bear the burden of those sins? Especially when Christ, in view of the provisions of His grace, calls upon you to "reckon yourself dead, indeed, unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ your Lord. We see how it is that often the peace of a young convert is very commonly destroyed, and his growth in grace prevented, by the instructions which he receives from older Christians. When the convert, alarmed at the discovery of inward corruptions, and of the numerous occasions of stumbling, in himself, arising from his temper, his appetites, his habits of sin, as well as the hardness of his heart, comes for counsel to those who ought to be able to point him at once to the remedy, and thus lead him to the "fountain of living waters," there is commonly a direct attempt to comfort him in his present state. He is told that his condition is "normal" and that he must not be alarmed when he finds sin in his heart. He is told that these sins, inclinations and tendencies will never be dislodged or overcome from his body until his dying day. If, now, he will turn from all such directions to the "exceeding great and precious promises" of Christ, and with humble confidence cast himself upon his faithfulness, then shall his "righteousness go forth as brightness, and his salvation as a lamp that burns." Then shall he prove, by blessed experience, the truth of the promise, "Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall; but they that wait on the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up on wings as eagles; they shall run and not be weary; they shall walk and not faint." Finally, we perceive the infinite obligation that rests upon us, not to remain under the power of any sin; but to have our temper, our appetites, our inclinations, tendencies, habits, and all the powers and feelings of our being, subdued and brought into sweet and perfect subjection to the will of Christ, so that there shall be "none occasion of stumbling in us." For the accomplishment of this, full provision is made in the Gospel of the grace of God, and we have only to cast ourselves upon Christ for the fulfillment of the "exceeding great and precious promises" which He has given us, and all this blessedness is ours. It is your blissful privilege, in the use of these promises, to be made a "partaker of the Divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." Remember what God has said, "Now the just shall live by faith; but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." "See that you do not refuse Him that speaks. For if they escaped not who refused Him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven." In our efforts after holiness, we may attain to a state of entire consecration to Christ. "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his own good pleasure." Our hope of attaining to this state rests not at all upon a view of our own natural powers, but upon the provisions of Divine grace for our "redemption from all iniquity," and our perfect "completeness in all the will of God," together with the Divine aid that is promised to succeed all sincere efforts made in simple faith in Christ, for the attainment of that state. In the redemption of Christ, full provision is made for the entire sanctification of every believer. The Holy Spirit is given for the express purpose of so presenting the Lord Jesus Christ to our minds, that we may experience in our hearts the full power of his redemption. The Spirit, it should be remembered, has a perfect understanding of all truth pertaining to our salvation. He has, at all times, direct access to our hearts, and is perfectly able to present the image of Christ to our minds in such a manner, that it shall exert upon us the highest possible transforming power. He is always in us, a perpetually indwelling light, whose highest illuminations we can always enjoy, by opening our hearts with simple faith and prayer to receive it. With such provisions and such a helper, to what state ought we to expect to attain? Who is strongest, Christian, let me put the question again, "He that is in you, or he that is in the world?" Which has the greatest power, the Spirit of the living God, together with an indwelling Christ, or your fleshly lusts, inclinations and tendencies? Shall the followers of Christ proclaim the fact, that the Spirit and grace of Christ are less strong in their hearts, than the "world, the flesh, and the devil?" that grace which changed an enemy into a son, is not adequate to render that son "perfect and complete in all the will of God?" You must forever give up all idea of resisting temptation, subduing any lust, appetite, or tendency, or of acceptably performing any service for Christ, by the mere force of your own resolutions. If your inclinations and tendencies, which lead to sin, are crucified, you know that an indwelling Christ must do it. If you overcome the world, this is to be the victory, "even our faith." If the great enemy is to be overcome, it is to be done "by the blood of the Lamb." The Lord Jesus Christ has provided special grace for the complete obedience and holiness of every individual. He has provided for the subjection of all our inclinations and tendencies, for a perfect victory over every temptation and incentive to sin. No matter what appears to hinder us, we can through Him, be everything that He requires us to be. The first inquiry is, In what particular respects do I need the grace of Christ? What is there, for example, in my temper that needs correcting? Where am I in bondage to appetite, or to any of my other inclinations and tendencies? What are the particular responsibilities, temptations, & events to each particular condition in life in which the Divine intervention of God has called me to act? What is the temper that I should have there to manifest, so that I may everywhere, and under all circumstances, reflect the image of Christ? Thus, having discovered my special need, in any one of the particulars above referred to, my next object is, to take some promise applicable to the particular demands before me, and go directly to Christ for the supply of that particular need. By having my eye of faith perpetually fixed upon Christ in this manner; by always looking to Him for special grace in every special crisis; yes, for "grace to help in every time of need, how easy it is to realize in our own blessed experience the truth of all the "exceeding great and precious promises" of Divine grace! How easy it is to have the peace of God, which passes all understanding, "keep our hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." "Our peace is then as a river, and our righteousness as the waves of the sea." The mind seems to be borne upward and onward, as upon an ocean of light, peace, and blessedness, which knows no bounds. Christ has provided means specifically adapted to secure your entire perfection in holiness. He perfectly understood your case when He undertook the work of your redemption. Every obstacle that lies in the way of your perfect sanctification was distinctly before his mind; and He has provided means fully adequate, and specifically adapted, to remedy all the consequences of your sins. However low you may have sunk in sin, He is able to lift you out of the "horrible pit and miry clay." However hard your heart may be, He can take it from you, and give you a heart of flesh in its place. However firmly fixed your habits of sin may be, He can break them all up. However strong the power of your carnal inclinations, He can subdue them all, and give you a perfect victory over them. Whatever temptations to sin beset you, from within or around you, He can give you strength to endure them. The means to accomplish all this, and specifically adapted to your particular case, are all provided by his infinite love. "If any man be in Christ, He is a new creature. Old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." Why, then, should you remain under the power of sin? Why should you be appalled by the fixedness of your habits of sin, by the strength of your carnal inclinations, or the multiplicity and power of the temptations which beset you? Christ saw all these when He assumed the work of your redemption. For all these He has provided a specific and all-powerful remedy. Go to Christ, and you will find that in Him there is redemption in readiness for you, to render you " perfect and complete in all the will of God." Clad in the armor of righteousness, which He has provided for you, you will find yourself able to stand against all the wiles of the wicked one. Christ, in short, has made ample provision for every particular necessity which may come upon you in time and eternity. There is not a solitary want of yours, throughout the endless future beyond you, for which a special supply is not made in the redemption of Christ. For you there is provided a seat in heaven, a robe of righteousness, a harp of gold, a crown of glory, and a special place in the center of God's heart of eternal love He requires and expects that you will believe that He, as your Redeemer, has made full and special provision for all your needs in that particular area; and that, in the exercise of full and implicit faith, you will look to Him for grace to meet those needs. Such are some of the requirements and expectations of Christ from us as Christians. Here let me add, that if we do not look to Christ to be saved by him, in every sphere, and in respect of every transaction in life, our faith does not fix upon him at all as a Savior from sin. I would also add, that if Christ does not save us by subduing our tempers, controlling our appetites and inclinations and tendencies, by rendering us in the world, as husbands and wives, parents and children, in every area of our life, and the particular transactions of life, what he requires us to be, he does not save us at all. The man who expects to be a Christian in his closet, and upon the Sabbath, and a man of the world behind his counter, in his shop, or on his farm, will find at last that he has failed of the grace of God. We may now understand the full meaning of the passage, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." The meaning of the passage I suppose to be this Christ accomplishes in and for the believer all that the law would have done, had he always perfectly obeyed its requisitions. For example, perfect obedience to the law secures to the subject a full exemption from all condemnation, and a sure title to the protection and favor of God. This the Christian enjoys through faith in Christ. Entire obedience to the law would have rendered his moral character absolutely perfect, and infinitively lovely and excellent in the estimation of God, and of all intelligent beings. A character, equally perfect, lovely, and excellent, the believer receives through implicit faith in Christ. Further, obedience to the law would have rendered the believer perfectly blessed in the love and favor of God. A blessedness equally perfect descends to the believer through faith in Christ. Again, obedience to the law would have secured to the believer a full and perfect supply of every necessity. Every demand of our being is met with equal fulness in Christ. All that the law would have done for the believer, had he perfectly obeyed its requisitions, Christ does for him, and infinitely more You will learn, Christian, to what to attribute every act of sin, and all your care, and trouble, and perplexity about the "many things" of this life. All these, together with every wrong feeling which arises in your mind, have their origin in one source exclusively, UNBELIEF, a lack of confidence in that special redemption of Christ, which, but for unbelief, would meet every possible exigency of our whole existence. We also can understand the secret of always having a heart melted with love and tenderness. It consists in a full sense of our own infinite guilt and vileness and then see the boundless love of Christ, in making such full and perfect provision for our entire necessities, and as being ever present in our hearts, to confer upon us the full benefits of this eternal redemption. "Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the children of God!" Such a thought, when it once takes possession of the mind, has omnipotent power to melt the heart, and cause its purest, sweetest, and best affections to roll for ever around one "blissful center." We must learn to only use the promises, in order that we may obtain the good which they present to us. As the design of the promises is to free us from the "corruptions that are in the world," and render us "partakers of the Divine nature," they are addressed and adapted to every possible condition in which we may be placed, and as a remedy for every evil, natural and moral, in which we may be involved. They descend to the sinner in the lowest depths of guilt and depravity, for the purpose of lifting him out of the "horrible pit and miry clay," and rendering him a partaker of the "Divine nature." They meet the Christian, in a state of partial holiness, for the purpose of raising him to a state of "perfect love," and then of carrying him upward and onward, from glory to glory, through time and eternity. Now, to use the promises so as to become possessed of the blessings which they offer to us, four things are necessary, 1. That we know our need. 2. That we apprehend the particular promise of Christ, which was designed to meet that particular necessity. 3. That we repose full confidence in Christ's ability and faithfulness to fulfil the promise which he has spread before us. 4. That we cast our whole being upon him, for the specific purpose of securing a fulfilment of the particular promise before us. For example, the sinner is brought to feel himself to be in a lost condition. Here he is met with the declaration of Christ, "I came to seek and to save that which was lost;" together with the promises, "Look to Me and be saved;" "Whosoever comes to me I will in no wise cast out." Let the sinner cast himself at once upon Christ, for the definite purpose of securing a fulfilment of those specific promises. Are you in darkness, reader? Go directly to Christ for the fulfilment of the promise, "I will lead the blind by a way which they know not." Is your heart hard and unfeeling? Go to Christ with the definite promise, "I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh," and cast yourself upon his faithfulness for the fulfilment of that promise. Are your appetites, or your inclinations and tendencies the "occasion of stumbling" to you? Carry these particular objects to Christ, and plead the definite promises, "If Christ be in you, the body is dead, because of sin," and "If any man be in Christ he is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold all things have become new." Do temptations beset you? Go to Christ with the promise, "Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation make a way for your escape, that you may be able to bear it." Are you about to enter into new and untried scenes, or spheres of action? Go to Christ with the specific promises, "Lo, I am with you always," and "My grace is sufficient for thee." Are you "hungering and thirsting after righteousness?" This promise you may now plead with Christ, "They shall be filled." Does the water of life begin to flow in your heart? This promise now rises before you, "Whosoever drinks of the water that I shall give him, shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him, shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." In short, whatever your condition or state of mind may be, remember that you are addressed by your Savior with some specific promise, perfectly adapted to your peculiar case. Your life depends upon your casting yourself at once upon the faithfulness of Christ, for a fulfilment of that promise. In so using the "exceeding great and precious promises," you may, with absolute certainty, be rendered a "partaker of the Divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." Now, Christian, if you will believe it, Christ will be to you all that he was to them. "He is the same yesterday, to-day, and for ever;" and you may share as fully as they did in the infinite fulness of the love and grace of Christ. If, however, you would enjoy this full redemption, all the powers of your being must be brought under the perpetual influence of this one principle, "Looking to Jesus." Do your sins rise up before you, and fill you with apprehensions of coming retributions,"Look to Jesus." Do you desire to be wholly freed from the power of sin, and to have your entire character presented to God, " without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing," "Look to Jesus." Are you burdened with care, or do the storms of affliction gather round you, "Look to Jesus." Is your temper unsubdued, do your appetites and inclinations and tendencies rebel, and call for unhallowed gratification, "Look to Jesus." Do temptations beset you, from within or around you, "Look to Jesus." Do you need wisdom and grace for any exigency whatever, "Look to Jesus." Whatever your condition or necessities may be, hear his gracious voice, "Come unto me, all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you shall find rest to your souls." Christ offers entire freedom from all sin, and the transformation of our entire character into a likeness to his own. "I," says Christ, "will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean; from all your filthiness, and from all your idols will I cleanse you." "And thou shalt call his name Jesus; for He shall save His people from their sins." "But we all, with open face beholding, as in a glass, the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." This is held before us as a promise. Such a change Christ stands pledged to produce in us IF WE WILL BELIEVE IN HIM.
TRUE OBEDIENCE TO GOD BY GRACE
God bless you freecd. Thankyou for blessing me this day. I here His voice in this piece.In Christ Jeff
Brother Ron,What are your thoughts:The new covenant, is the covenant of grace, concealed to our first parents, in the promise, "The seed of the woman shall bruise the serpent's head," more distinctly unfolded in the promise to Abraham, and brought out in all its fulness in the new dispensation. As the Mediator of this covenant, Christ, as shown in the text, and in a preceding discourse, promises to believers, on condition of their faith in him, the following blessings:In ChristJeff
What are your thoughts:I'm not sure of the implications of the question but I do think the expressions of the New Covenant as found in Isaiah, Ezekiel and Jeremiah are often neglected in conversations about regeneration. It is because I believe in the New COVENANT that I have come to some of my conclusions.There are some points that I would express differently to Mahon. I can't think why he should make such an issue of 'entire justification'. I can't think what point there would be in partial justification. I think his targeting the moral law takes us away from the 'fulfillment' of the principles of the law rather to a conscious observance of them which I don't think works.What aspects did you have in mind?
Brother Ron,Why can't you read my mind. Sorry.In Hebrews 6:17, "Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath." This particular Scripture says to me, God made an oath with Abraham. His purpose was to provide a clear example of how God works to save man by grace through faith in Christ. To me this Scripture identifies that God's purpose was to reveal His ways to man more clearly by the example given to us in Abraham. This Scripture came to mind when I read this post. The old covenant, the law reveals God's precepts for His creation. The new covenant enable man to live "the Life."In the quoted thought, men prior to Abraham also knew the power of the New Covenant. Enoch, Abel, Seth, all pleased God. The new covenant is the means by which these fallen men can please God. And the first promise began with Genesis 3:15.In ChristJeff
The new covenant is the means by which these fallen men can please God. And the first promise began with Genesis 3:15.So would it be safe to assume then that what was important to God was the fact that these men had faith in God? What I mean is that they please God on the basis that their lives reflected the truth that believed in God and walked according to his ways. I do not think that it was based upon any covenant old or new, it was based upon faith in God.
Brother Zeke,I believe as you say that to walk with God (OT way that means faith in the NT), is the means by which we are able to please God. Paul called this "the law of faith." The law of faith overcomes the condemnation that began in Genesis 3:15. In ChristJeff
rookie wrote:I believe as you say that to walk with God (OT way that means faith in the NT), is the means by which we are able to please God. In this regard I have great admiration for the OT saints, they only had the law on the outside and no witness of the Spirit on the inside. Now that is what I call faith, walking, believing in an eternal all powerful God who gave you these laws to abide by and now and again did ‘stuff’. Imagine what it must have been like for them.
Brother Zeke wrote:In this regard I have great admiration for the OT saints, they only had the law on the outside and no witness of the Spirit on the inside. Paul teaches that faith comes by hearing, and that by hearing the word of God. Throughout the OT we are given examples of God personally instructing His saints. Look to the book of Joshua, God gives Joshua clear instruction. God came to King Solomon twice to turn him away from his transgressions, (1Kings 11:9-10). Yet Solomon rebelled against His commands. I believe the Holy Spirit indwelled the OT saints as well. See James 4:5. Faith that please God can only come from obeying the Holy Spirit. Remember there is nothing good in carnal man. It is only the Spirit who counsels and gives to us the things of Christ.In ChristJeff
I believe the Holy Spirit indwelled the OT saints as well. See James 4:5. I disagree with your use of James 4:5, I think that he is talking to Born again believers. When Saul was anointed to become king he started prophesying, but never did so again. The spirit of prophecy lifted from him, we as NT believers have that privilege any time.Faith that pleases God can only come from obeying the Holy Spirit.So are you saying that the only way the Spirit spoke in the OT was through an internal witness?Remember there is nothing good in carnal man. It is only the Spirit who counsels and gives to us the things of Christ. That is why they had temple worship with its many sacrifices, that is were God dwelled in the OT, not in there hearts.
Psalm 51:10-11 David prayed Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. De not cast me away from your presence and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.If I'm not mistaken, I believe there are also other references in the OT of men having the Holy Spirit.Mike
Psalm 51:10-11 David prayed Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. De not cast me away from your presence and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.If I'm not mistaken, I believe there are also other references in the OT of men having the Holy Spirit.Hi MikeRookie and I have been having this conversation for months now. :-(There are only three references to the 'holy' Spirit in the Old Testament. [Ps 51:11, Is 63:10,11] It is not the way the OT usually refers to the Spirit of God. The references all use the word 'holy' in direct contrast to the behaviour of the 'unholy' people of God. David's prayer is very instructive. He had seen God remove His Spirit from Saul in response to Saul's sin and he is afraid that he is about to suffer the same fate. The distinctive location of the Spirit in Saul's life was 'upon him'. The Lord Jesus referred to the presence of the Spirit in the life of his disciples in the same image. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. (Joh 14:17-20 KJV) His use of prepositions is very exact here; he dwelleth with you and shall be in you.David, as many of those wonderful OT saints were anointed. In spite of the way that Pentecostal and Charismatics use this language the OT kind of anointing is absent from the New Covenant. Their anointing was a temporary thing, remaining until the job was done and then removing eg Samson. In the New Covenant the 'anointing' goes inside and is permanent; But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1Jo 2:27 KJV). Do you see where it has gone now? Is is within and it is no longer a temporary phenomenon, it abideth in you. This is a internal, abiding anointing; theirs was external and temporary.David realised that he was in danger of loosing 'his anointing' because of his sin which is why he prayed as he did in Ps 51. You are right there are very many references to people in the Old Testament 'having the Spirit' but was He upon them or within them?
Brother Zeke wrote:That is why they had temple worship with its many sacrifices, that is were God dwelled in the OT, not in there hearts.Where did God dwell during the lives of Enoch, Abel, Seth, or Joshua?My point is that unless God speaks to us how do we know His will? Jesus said that the function of the Holy Spirit is to counsel those who believe. The content of that counsel would lead the hearer to become more like Christ. This is the saving work of our Lord. It is real. Likewise, how would the OT saints know what God wanted of them unless He spoke to them? These are conclusion that one comes to as one learns from Scripture. Every faithful example given to us in the OT requires that God first speak to the individual. God said to Abraham get up and go to a place where I will lead you. If God had not spoke, Abraham would not have gone. Abraham was able to conclude that when God commanded him to sacrifice Isaac that God if He has to would raise Isaac up from the dead. Hebrews 1l. Read in the OT the times God calls for the nation of Israel to repent. Listen to His judgements. He charges them that they did not heed His voice. Look up in the concordance, the word voice. Just as He gave Solomon a warning twice to repent, so He does to all the saints. Read Job 31-34, Scripture tells us how God saves. Read Psalm 119, Scripture tells us how God saves. He teaches us by His word. The Psalmist declares, "Your testimonies are wonderful; therefore my soul keeps them, the entrance of Your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple. I opened my mouth and panted, for I longed for Your commandments. Look upon me and be merciful to me, as Your custom is toward those who love Your name. Psalm 119:129-133.These words in Psalm 119 apply to all believers. These thoughts should be our thoughts. What good is Psalm 119 if these thoughts mean nothing to us. Likewise many generation of saints in the OT read this Psalm. What good is it to them unless God illuminates his word? The OT saints sang these words over and over again. For what purpose? Emmanuel was with them as He is with us.In ChristJeff
Emmanuel was with them as He is with us.But He is not only with us. He promised us something He never promised them; that He would be in us.
What then is the testimony of the saints of today? How do they, empowered by the indwelling spirit, differ from Abraham. The counselor speaks, it is the word that creates faith. The OT saints were santified by the word of God. The OT saints were justified and lived by faith. No one can come near God unless He calls. We have a greater revelation of His work, yet how we suffer in bondage to our carnal man. In ChristJeff
Hi JeffNevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (Joh 16:7 KJV)What do you see as the purpose behind this statement? Christ was obviously going to 'send' someone which must imply in some sense that He was not here before He was sent. His coming was going to be 'expedient'. The word means 'better', 'profitable' What was going to be 'better'? If the purpose of His coming was to effect what the OT saints had known before He came, how would that be 'better'? What do you see as the 'extra' that His coming was plainly to have?
Christ prayed something to the effect, Give to me the glory I once had with You. In the gospels, while Christ was man, Scripture says that the Holy Spirit could not be given until Christ was glorified. Once Christ rose from the dead, and was with the apostles, He said some where at the end of the gospels, "Receive the Spirit," Please forgive me for I do not have time to quote Scripture. It is time for me to carpool home. I believe that the glory that Christ had before He became man was restored to Him after He rose from the dead. Thus He resumed His heavenly priesthood.In ChristJeff
I believe that the glory that Christ had before He became man was restored to Him after He rose from the dead. Thus He resumed His heavenly priesthood.Hi JeffOf course, this is our 'other' conversation. :-D But none of your most recent post tells me how the disciples were affected by the coming of the Spirit in Acts 2. What do you think happened to them then that had not happened before?You will recall that even after the John 20:22 breathing of the Spirit the disciples were ordered to remain in Jerusalem until they were 'endued with power from on high'. This word power in 'dunamis' which is power inherent in the nature of a thing. This is not bolt-on spiritual muscle but a new inward dynamic.The experience of John 20:22 was plainly not the event promised by Christ in John 14-16.
Hi rookie,I am battling to see the relation between the Holy Spirit being in the OT or NT saints and God speaking to them/us creating faith in our hearts. Please help me to understand?
To Brothers Ron and Zeke:Paul teaches in Romans 2:28-29, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh, but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."Here Paul defines the difference between those who follow the law according to their flesh, and those who are taught by the Holy Spirit how to please God. What is the result of one who is led by the Spirit? One's heart is circumsised of there carnal ways. The word of God is implanted in their hearts and that causes one the cast off the hardness that exists prior to God working in them. Jesus speaks to the crowd to explain His teachings what is required of His disciples. "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you." John 6:53. The crowd did not understand this teaching so Jesus elaborated on it by saying, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63 Here Jesus teaches us that His disciples must eat His flesh and drink His blood. I believe this is symbolic of saying that those who follow Him will die to their flesh as He demonstrated to the whole world. Jesus identifies that it is His words which brings life to His disciples. Jesus identifies that His words are communicated to us through the Holy Spirit. Therefore, it is His words that will circumcise our hearts. In Hebrews 8:10-13, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, "Know the Lord, for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them...." Here we learn that our High Priest Jesus promises this to happen in the lives of those who believe in Him. This is the work of God in those He sets apart from this world. Now let's look to Jeremiah 11:23-25, "Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, let not the might man glory in his might, nor let the rich man glory in his riches; but let him who glories glory in this, " So far Jeremiah has identified the ways of man and his dependence on his flesh. Now look to who Jeremiah directs us to. "That he understands and knows Me. That I am the Lord, exercising lovingkindness, judgement, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight says the Lord." Here Jeremiah explains that only those who know God can please Him. Is this not part of the new covenant promise that we find in Hebrew? Then Jeremiah writes on," Behold, the days are coming says the Lord, "that I will punish all who are circumcised with the uncircumcised--Egypt, Judah, Edom, the people of Ammon, Moab, and all who are in the farthest corners, who dwell in the wilderness. For all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart." Here God judges Israel because they have not circumcised their hearts. We know that there is nothing good in man and without God granting repentance, without God's lovingkindness, man is lost. So the nature of God is that unless He acts upon man His creation is condemned. Therefore God would not judge Israel unless Israel had the same opportunity that we have today with the works of the Holy Spirit on our hearts. See Romans 8:13, It is only those who put to death the flesh by following the Holy Spirit that become heirs of the kingdom. Got to goIn Christ Jeff
In Jeremiah 17:19-27, God condemns Israel for not observing His Sabbath Day. "Thus says the Lord; "Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the Sabbath Day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem; nor carry a burden out of your houses on the Sabbath day, nor do any work, but hallow the Sabbath day as I commanded your fathers. "But they did not obey nor incline their ear but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear nor receive instruction. What is the purpose of the Sabbath day? Is it not to listen for God's instructions? Be still and know that I am God. Jesus declared, "Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath." Mark 2:28 Just as the fathers stiffened their necks against listening for God's instructions during Jeremiah's time, so we see the children stiffen their necks during Jesus' time."It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63In ChristJeff
Brother Ron wrote:You will recall that even after the John 20:22 breathing of the Spirit the disciples were ordered to remain in Jerusalem until they were 'endued with power from on high'. This word power in 'dunamis' which is power inherent in the nature of a thing. This is not bolt-on spiritual muscle but a new inward dynamic.They obeyed God according to His commands. This is God working out His plan. In terms of the power of the Holy Spirit, we see this same manifestation in Numbers 11:25, "Then the Lord came down in the clould, and spoke to him, and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and placed the same upon the seventy elders; and it happened, when the Spirit rested upon them, that they prophesied, although they never did so again." Here in the OT we see the same manifestation of the Spirit as we saw at Pentecost. Now I know nothing of Hebrew or Greek, but in my New King James bible there is a footnote to the last part of this verse, "although they never did so again." The footnote says that there is another translation for this phrase. It gives this translation, "and they did not cease." You see God gave power to the elders of Israel to rule over His people. Just as He gave power to His apostles to rule over His people. In Matthew 3:16, "When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him."In Acts 2:17, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;..."In Titus 3:5-6, "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior." In Acts 10:44, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word."In Acts 11:15, "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning."In Ezekiel 11:5, "Then the Spirit of the Lord fell upon me, and said to me, "Speak! "Thus says the Lord; "Thus you have said, O house of Israel; for I know the things that come into your mind."In Ezekiel 37:1, "The hand of the Lord came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones."In Isaiah 59:21, "As for Me," says the Lord, "This is My covenant with them; My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants' descendants," says the Lord, "from this time and forevermore."In Isaiah 42:1, "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles."Does the Spirit of God and His work change? I think not. Throughout the NT the Spirit of God did not manifest itself in the same way with tongues of fire alighting on the head of the church. We men try to divide the work of God into categories. Yet God's ways always make our thoughts foolishness.In Christ Jeff
Hi JeffI still don't know why you think they were told to wait an event; tbe being baptized in the Holy Spirit. These 'anointings' were rightly part of the Old Covenant as you point out. What do you see as the unique/additional blessings of the New Covenant? The references to 'falling upon' emphasize the suddenness of the event. I would still like to hear your comments on 'has been with you and shall be in you'. What can that have meant in your understanding?
Brother Ron wrote: I would still like to hear your comments on 'has been with you and shall be in you'. What can that have meant in your understanding? As I quoted from Hebrews,"I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts..." Hebrews 8:10. This is part of the New Covenant promise that results in the individual who surrenders to our High Priest in heaven. The promise, "I will put, " is God revealing His word to the individual. The result of God's work is that the nature of the individuals desires in this life will be renewed and washed by the word of God. As this washing continues, the individual will begin to desire more of God. The words of God become the treasure for which he seeks. I believe this is what God means when He promises to put His laws in our minds and heart. I believe that as a new believer the word of God is with us, and then as we walk with Him, His words fill us with desire for Him. Remember, earlier I quoted from John where Jesus tells the crowd that if they desire to be His disciples they must eat His flesh and drink His blood. Then He says that this idea represents the words that He speaks to those that are His. The flesh of the disciple does not profit, but the spirit of the disciple is transformed into life. This same promise was also given to those faithful in the book of Deuteronomy. The writer of Psalm 119 experienced this promise. I look for the fruit of the Holy Spirit in the OT. It is the evidence of things not seen. The OT is fill with rich illustrations of the fruit of the Spirit and also the fruit of the flesh. When one knows God one also will see His ways. Do not the OT books demonstrate this?In John 20:22, "And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."In Luke 24:44-45, "Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures."Is this not the work of the Holy Spirit on the apostles? As ;you pointed out, they were commanded to stay in place until Pentecost. What was it that they did during this time? They prayed and studied the Scriptures. This was a time when God was preparing beforehand for the work that He had planned. As the Scriptures are opened to the individual, one learns line by line, here a little there a little. No one as a babe in Christ has understanding of who God is. It is only as one tastes the goodness of His word can one begin to cherrish and desire food that the world knows nothing off. From the very beginning, man must not live on bread alone but for every word that comes from God's mouth. Jesus says that He is the bread of life, "For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." John 6:33. In ChristJeff
In John 20:22, "And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."In Luke 24:44-45, "Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures."I agree most heartily with your associating of these two passages of scripture. I am sure that the Luke passage explains the purpose of the John passage. However I don't believe this came by 'prayer and study' of the scriptures but by immediate revelation enabled by their pre-pentecost effusion of the Spirit. In this sense the Spirit was acting as He had frequently acted in OT instances. He empowered them to do what they could not do previously, but that still leaves the Coming of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost.They were commanded to wait the promise of the Father, tarrying (literally sitting down) in Jerusalem. At this point in chronology the Spirit had still not arrived in fulfillment of the words in John 7:39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)(Joh 7:38-39 KJV)His full glorification and accession to the throne is recorded in Acts 2 where Peter explains that the manifest presence of the Holy Spirit was because Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. (Act 2:33 KJV) It was the ascended Lord who sent the Spirit and this must be distinguished from the Resurrected Christ who breathed the Spirit.So I ask again, what was the purpose of Acts 2 and why were they told to remain in Jerusalem until Christ 'received the promise of the Spirit' and consequently poured Him out on all flesh.
Br. Ron wrote:They were commanded to wait the promise of the Father, tarrying (literally sitting down) in Jerusalem. At this point in chronology the Spirit had still not arrived in fulfillment of the words in John 7:39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)(Joh 7:38-39 KJV)Jesus said in John 13:31, "...Now the Son of Man is glorified, and God is glorified in Him. If God is glorified in Him, God will also glorify Him in Himself, and glorify Him immediately." Jesus prayed,"Father, the hour has come, Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You," John 17:1Jesus prayed, "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." John 17:4I believe Scripture supports the idea that Jesus was glorified at the time of His ultimate sacrifice. Jesus prays, "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are." John 17 11. Jesus at this point state He is no longer of this world. Peter preaches, "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you. and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses." Here Peter points to the time of Jesus' death and ressurection as the time of glorification. Jesus said that He is the Ressurection and the Life. He speaks of the power of the ressurection not the power of the ascension. Pointing out from the Scripture you have quoted, you have assigned the time of Jesus receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit once He ascended into heaven. Yet Peter focuses on the power of the resurrection as that which enables His soul not to see corruption. It is my belief that the resurrection is the point where Jesus's glory is restored. You see this points to the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus says to His disciples, "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also." John 14:19 When did His disciples see Him? Jesus says to His disciples, "At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in You." What day is He speaking of? Jesus says to His disciples, "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me, And He who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." John 14:19-21.What does this promise of "and I will love him and manifest Myself to him mean to you? Paul teaches, about the New Covenant, "For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ." Galatians 1:12Paul teaches, "But when it pleased God, who seperated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, to reveal His Son In me... Galatians 1:15Paul teaches, "Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?" Paul identifies the believer has the ability to obey the flesh or the Spirit. Paul's work is, "My little children, for whom I labor in birth pains again until Christ is formed in you." What does He mean by this? I ask these questions because so much is made of the day of Pentecost and we believe that seperates us somehow from the OT saints. Yet where is the dunamis today? Who is turning the world upside down for Christ. It is all about the law of faith. As I became a babe in Christ no one around me could explain what faith is. They could recite rheems of doctrine, but nothing about the law of faith. "But the just shall live by his faith." Habakkuk 2:4 The OT saints read this Scripture. The OT saints knew what it meant to "walk in the ancient path."What does Pentecost change for you?In ChristJeff
I ask these questions because so much is made of the day of Pentecost and we believe that seperates us somehow from the OT saints. Yet where is the dunamis today? Who is turning the world upside down for Christ.We must not confuse the professors with the possessors. I am not a Pentecostal so I accept no responsibilty for justifying their doctrines. What does Pentecost change for you?Biblically, everything. This is the Spirit of Life from above entering the carcase of 'gathered bones and added sinew' and bringing life. This is the wind who blows where He wills and brings life from above. This is power to walk the world in white. It is the river outpoured from the throne of God and of the Lamb, that pours out of the Temple and brings life to everything it touches. It is life from the dead. It is incorporation into Christ by one Spirit. It brings everything from the outside onto the inside and established the throne of God in the heart. It is the new Sinai where God's New Covenant is brought into the experience of His New People.We were justified by his blood, reconciled to God by the death of His Son, but Pentecost gives me the life by which I am constantly saved. (Rom 5:9,10)
Br. Ron,I look at Pentecost in a different way. The actual event was the initiation of another time of God pouring out His Spirit on a generation that He had prepare beforehand to do good works. Peter points to Scripture of Joel 2:28-31 as a recognition of what God was doing that day. However, I believe that this event that is written in Joel can also be applied to other times in history. I believe that God poured out His Spirit on those who returned from captivity in Babylon. Hosea 3:4-5, "For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphin. Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the Lord their God and David their king. They shall fear the Lord and His goodness in the latter day." I believe this predicts the time found in Nehemiah 8 and 9. The celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles is central to this event. I believe just like the day of Pentecost the disciples worshiped the Lord because of what He had done that day, likewise the celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles is similar. Look to the end of the book of Zechariah. The celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles will determine who is of God and who is not of God. Does this not speak to who is born of the Spirit and those who are not?Likewise the prophesy of Joel will also apply to times in the future just as I have mentioned described by Zechariah. God's promise is to all generations, however Scripture clearly teaches through example that some generations are cursed because of apostacy and others repent because of God's mercy and grace.In ChristJeff
I look at Pentecost in a different way. The actual event was the initiation of another time of God pouring out His Spirit on a generation that He had prepare beforehand to do good works. Peter points to Scripture of Joel 2:28-31 as a recognition of what God was doing that day.No Jeff, this won't fit.One of the key descriptions of Christ in the testimony of John Baptist is that he is the one 'baptizing in the Holy Spirit'. The construction here means that we are justified in describing Christ as the Spirit-Baptizer, or the Spirit Baptist. In Mark 6:14 the same construction is used to describe John as the 'baptizing one, the KJV translates it John the Baptist. There was John the Baptist; a water baptizer. And there was Jesus the Baptizer; a Spirit baptizer. Baptism was always administered by one to one. Every baptism is an intensely personal event. This is not a corporate event but a personal one. John Baptist testifies to the nature of Christ's coming work in each on the gospel accounts. In John's account he refers to Christ as the 'one bearing-away the sin of the world, then as the 'one baptizing in Spirit'. The order is significant; it was necessary to bear away sin before He could baptize in Spirit. This is seen in Christ's testimony; "I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! "But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! (Luk 12:49-50 NASB). His cross-baptism had to be accomplished before He could begin His work of casting fire on the earth.In Acts 1 Christ addresses the disciplies prior to his ascension; And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. (Act 1:4-5 KJV) This clearly equates the 'promise of the Father' with 'baptism in the Holy Spirit', and the time is specific... not many days hence. This is clearly a reference to the day of Pentecost.When the Spirit came on the day of Pentecost, Peter explained it in the terms of the earlier command and promise; Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.(Act 2:33 KJV). This is the 'promise of the Father'which we have seen equates with the term 'baptism in the Spirit'. This event is described using several different pictures; the Spirit fills them, He is shed (outpoured) upon them. Peter also uses the language of Joel to describe the event and introduces it with the words 'this is that'. 'That' was a frequent description used by Christ in reference to the day of the Spirit's coming; "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. (Joh 14:20 NASB)"In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you.(Joh 16:23 NASB)"In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf; (Joh 16:26 NASB). Peter's indentification was true at every level; this is that.In the home of Cornelius the Spirit 'fell on all them which heard the word'. Later, back in Jerusalem Peter explains what had happened; And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.(Act 11:15-16 KJV) Peter says this is exactly what happened to him in the beginning, and he indentifies it with the term 'baptized with the Holy Spirit'. This is not a different generation, but a different racial group of the same generation, with their own separate and personal 'baptism in Spirit'. Acts 2 was the inaugural event as is symbolized in familiar signs of wind and fire, but each one was to receive their own personal 'baptism in Spirit'. Paul clearly believed that the Corinthians, for all their carnality, had received their own personal baptism in Spirit; For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. (1Co 12:13 ASV)The events of the day of Pentecost were not 'more of the same' in the sense of a simple repetition of events experienced by the returning exiles, it was the inauguration of a new era.
rookie,The problem with your reasoning is that you did not prove scripturally that the outpouring of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost had occurred in Nehemiah 8 and 9. All you have is your own words, "I believe that God poured out..." But where is the scriptural proof from Ezra-Nehemiah?Just my 2 pennies.Sam
Br. Ron wrote:John Baptist testifies to the nature of Christ's coming work in each on the gospel accounts. In John's account he refers to Christ as the 'one bearing-away the sin of the world, then as the 'one baptizing in Spirit'. The order is significant; it was necessary to bear away sin before He could baptize in Spirit.John 1:33, "I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, "Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit." Now, again I know vertually nothing about language, but what tense does the Father use to describe the function of the Son?Ron wrote?In Acts 1 Christ addresses the disciplies prior to his ascension; And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. (Act 1:4-5 KJV) This clearly equates the 'promise of the Father' with 'baptism in the Holy Spirit', and the time is specific... not many days hence. This is clearly a reference to the day of Pentecost.Based on my previous post, I believe that Christ was glorified upon His resurrection. Thoughout the NT it is the resurrection that seperates all other men from Jesus. It is the power of the resurrected life that Paul teaches of. I believe that His disciples saw Him after He rose from the dead. I believe this because Scripture says so.Finally, many have laboured with doctrines to say this or that. How does doctrine handle these Scriptures?"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb." Luke 1:15"And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:41"Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying." Luke 1:67"Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness," Luke 4:1"Then Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and news of Him went out through all the surrounding region." Luke 4:14"The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor..." Luke 4:18"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Spirit to those who ask Him." Luke 11:13"But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Fathe in spirit and truth... John 4:23I believe that these Scripture identify that the Holy Spirit is given to empower the believer to accomplish God's plan. Whether it is Simeon, Elizabeth, or Jesus portrayed in the above Scriptures, the function is not to determine if one is saved or not, but to empower God's people for the work He has set aside for them to do. Jesus, in the flesh, is a perfect example for us in terms of teaching us about the filling of the Holy Spirit. If I were to believe as you, then according to doctrine, when Jesus was baptized by John and the Spirit came down upon Him, that was the moment He was saved. You are right, I don't fit into your doctrine.In ChristJeff
Br. Sam,To what group of people does the book of Zechariah, chapter 3 and 4 speak to?In ChristJeff
Finally, many have laboured with doctrines to say this or that. How does doctrine handle these Scriptures?"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb." Luke 1:15"And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:41"Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying." Luke 1:67"Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness," Luke 4:1"Then Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and news of Him went out through all the surrounding region." Luke 4:14"The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor..." Luke 4:18"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Spirit to those who ask Him." Luke 11:13"But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Fathe in spirit and truth... John 4:23I believe that these Scripture identify that the Holy Spirit is given to empower the believer to accomplish God's plan. Whether it is Simeon, Elizabeth, or Jesus portrayed in the above Scriptures, the function is not to determine if one is saved or not, but to empower God's people for the work He has set aside for them to do. Jesus, in the flesh, is a perfect example for us in terms of teaching us about the filling of the Holy Spirit. If I were to believe as you, then according to doctrine, when Jesus was baptized by John and the Spirit came down upon Him, that was the moment He was saved.You are right, these are all fillings for empowerment of service. You'll find this happening throughout the OT. But you will also notice that they are selective. Only individules get them. Joel was looking forward to a day when all flesh would have the Spirit poored out on it as it was on him. And Moses' wish that they were all prophets would finally be realized. In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey
Jeff,Zechariah 3 and 4 are irrelevant because they make no mention of an outpouring of the Spirit in the fashion of the day of Pentecost in Acts 2. They can hardly be scriptural proofs for your point unless extrabiblical inferences are imported into these verses.Sam
John 1:33, "I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, "Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit."Now, again I know vertually nothing about language, but what tense does the Father use to describe the function of the Son?It is a present participle preceded by the definite article. It signifies characteristic rather than an event that can be put on a time line. This is His role and function. Although, He was slain before the foundation of the world in the heart of God, there was a point on a time line when He cried 'It is finished' and before it was finished it wasn't finished!;-) His title as Spirit-baptizer is independent of a time line, but 'you shall be baptised in the Holy Spirit not many days hence' is very time conscious.Based on my previous post, I believe that Christ was glorified upon His resurrection. Thoughout the NT it is the resurrection that seperates all other men from Jesus. It is the power of the resurrected life that Paul teaches of. I believe that His disciples saw Him after He rose from the dead. I believe this because Scripture says so.He manifested forth his glory at Cana at the Wedding Feast but this was not when He was glorified. His cross, resurrection, and ascension were all constituent parts of the Father's will to 'glorify Him' but the culmination is found in Paul; And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. (1Ti 3:16 ASV) It is the event typified in Psalm 24;Who shall ascend into the hill of Jehovah? And who shall stand in his holy place? (Psa 24:3 ASV) Here is Christ's ascent in heaven. Lift up your heads, O ye gates; And be ye lifted up, ye everlasting doors: And the King of glory will come in. Who is the King of glory? Jehovah strong and mighty, Jehovah mighty in battle. (Psa 24:7-8 ASV). Here He is received up in glory.I believe that these Scripture identify that the Holy Spirit is given to empower the believer to accomplish God's plan. Whether it is Simeon, Elizabeth, or Jesus portrayed in the above Scriptures, the function is not to determine if one is saved or not, but to empower God's people for the work He has set aside for them to do. Jesus, in the flesh, is a perfect example for us in terms of teaching us about the filling of the Holy Spirit.You will notice that all references to 'filling' with the Spirit are provided by Brother Luke. No one else uses this expression. It is unique to Luke; Paul's 'continue to be being filled' is a different idea. This is Luke's generic term for empowerment of the Spirit. Imagine the term like a huge circle that Luke uses into which he puts lots of other expressions for the Spirit's work; falling upon, outpouring, baptism, anointing. Now all these phrases can be expressed by Luke as 'filling' but that doesn't mean they are synonymous terms. eg Levites included Gershonites, Kohathites, Merari-ites. All were 'Levites' but that doesn't mean that a Gershonite is a Kohathite. 'Filled with the Spirit' is an overall term used by Luke; you have to look at the context to see what he has in mind.If I were to believe as you, then according to doctrine, when Jesus was baptized by John and the Spirit came down upon Him, that was the moment He was saved. I have no idea how you can have come to this conclusion from my 'doctrine'. I have never equated 'anointing' with salvation. Can't you see the basic difference in imagery between an 'anointing' which is received from above and a 'baptism' where someone is plunged into something? John 'baptized' Jesus in water and the Father 'anointed' Him from above, but there is no biblical grounds for saying that Jesus was ever 'baptised in the Spirit'.
Brs.I have many questions to respond to, and not the time to do so. This is a thought concerning Ron's quote:It is a present participle preceded by the definite article. It signifies characteristic rather than an event that can be put on a time line. This is His role and function. Although, He was slain before the foundation of the world in the heart of God, there was a point on a time line when He cried 'It is finished' and before it was finished it wasn't finished!In essences your are saying that Christ was not able to be completely God the Son prior to His incarnation. Also as we have discussed before, as you pointed out that being able to baptize with the Spirit is as you put it, signifies a characteristic of Jesus. This characteristic could only be applied once God proved that His Son would faithfully sacrifice His life for us. I believe this is in conflict with what Scripture teaches us. Just like we have discussed Melchizedec, you have said that the priestly order signifies a characteristic of Jesus once He died on the cross. I believe that the primary function of our High Priest is to baptize with the Holy Spirit. I believe Jesus was, is , and will function in the same capacity as being part of the Trinity. In ChristJeff
Hi Jeff, here we go again...In essences your are saying that Christ was not able to be completely God the Son prior to His incarnation.I do wish you would listen to what I am saying rather than telling me what I am saying.;-) What you are saying is, if I believed as you do and said the things I am saying then it would have certain implications. Of course it would, but then I don't believe the things that you believe so if you want to know what I believe there is no alternative to listening to what I say and trying to understand what I mean by the words I use.Can you not see the difference between person and role? It WAS God the Son who was incarnated. Jesus of Nazareth as the human incarnation of God the Son had a beginning in Bethlehem. It was not the Son of God who had a beginning but the human incarnation of God the Son who had a beginning. Just like we have discussed Melchizedec, you have said that the priestly order signifies a characteristic of Jesus once He died on the cross. I believe that the primary function of our High Priest is to baptize with the Holy Spirit. I believe Jesus was, is , and will function in the same capacity as being part of the Trinity.In 1965 I became a husband. In 1966 I became a father. In 1994 I became a grandfather. But none of these events altered who I am. My essential attributes were unaltered. What altered were my roles and responsibilities. It is vital to distinguish between God's attributes and God's activities. If you have not read it recently I would strongly recommend 'The Knowledge of the Holy' by A W Tozer. High Priesthood is not an attribute of divinity; it is a function. As a mediator, a priest cannot function until there are at least two persons between whom he can mediate. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but God is one. (Gal 3:20 ASV) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1Ti 2:5 KJV) Please note that the mediator is a 'man'. The person we call Christ was always God, but He could not be a mediator until He became man. This kind of mediator has to have living links to both parties. Similarly He became our 'go-el' -kinsman redeemer; he could not become our kinsman-redeemer until He had become our kinsman. Before mankind there could have been no mediator; a mediator is not of one. The term 'Son of God' is eternal; it did not begin, has never changed, and can never end. Incarnation was an event, and a necessary event if the Son was to become the mediator; Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. (Heb 2:17 NASB)I have quoted this from the NASB for simplicity's sake. Please notice the divine logic in this verse... He had to be made like unto His brethren in all things, so that He might become.. Let's cut to the chase; he had to be made... so that he might become. Can you see process here, and change? But there is no process nor change in the attributes of deity. Things have had to happen before other things could happen. Eternal priesthood could only have been true if there were others than God who were eternal. If Christ had some mediatorial role bewteen God and angels it could only have functioned when the angels were created, and could only have functioned perfectly if he shared the likeness of both God and angels. He never did take on the nature of angels, and has never held a mediatorial role in this sense. But He is the 'man, Christ Jesus'. In the sense that Christ is the result of 'christing' or 'anointing'. He was potentially the Christ from the creation of the world, but He was actually the Anointed One on earth, from the time of His anointing; The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, (Luk 4:18 KJV). Notice this refers to an event; He hath anointed me. (see also Acts 2:36, 4:27, 10:38)Jesus the Spirit Baptizer is not a reference to the unchanging attributes of deity. If it were, all triune persons of the God-head would also have to be 'Spirit-baptizers'. Just as He was always God's choice for rule and hence, potentially, the Christ, so potentially He was always the Spirit-Baptizer, But just as there was an event before which He was not 'anointed' (Christ) and before which He could not have said 'He has anointed me'. So there was an event at which He received the Spirit, and before which he was could not 'baptize in Spirit'; This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. (Act 2:32-33 KJV) Do note the 'events' and the order in which are recorded here:1.God raised Him up; resurrection2.God exalted Him to His own right hand; glorification/enthronement3.He received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit4.He poured forth what He had received; Acts 2.Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (Joh 16:7 KJV) Notice, not 'I will give Him' as occurred in John 20:22 but 'I will send Him'. This could only occur with Christ 'in absentia'. It could only occur when He had 'gone away'; only then could He 'send Him'.
Br. Ron,I guess my name implies a newness to this form of communication. I will try to learn not to imply your thoughts as a way of making a point. Thankyou for taking the time to coach me.Now, I have read and considered your point of view. I see the frame work upon which you have built your position. However, I do have to contend that framework. High Priesthood is not an attribute of divinity; it is a function. As a mediator, a priest cannot function until there are at least two persons between whom he can mediate. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but God is one. (Gal 3:20 ASV) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1Ti 2:5 KJV) Please note that the mediator is a 'man'. The person we call Christ was always God, but He could not be a mediator until He became man.I disagree with this statement. The path we walk defines what we are in this world. God created all things for His pleasure. God speaks and creation exists. I don't believe one can seperate the attributes and action that emmanates from deity. We know He is merciful because He demonstrates this attribute to us. Likewise, we know that He is just because He demostrates this to us. Paul writes, "because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:19-20. Now Scripture also states, "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." John 1:3 To me this means that Christ's function has always been between the Father and creation. With this thought in mind, let me quote two Scriptures, "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men...That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world." John 1:4, 9How do you see Christ according to this Scripture providing the light of Life to every man coming into the world? Please do not forget that everything that has been created is created throught Christ and for Christ.In Christ Jeff
Br. JeremyI hear your point about the magnitude of the out pouring of His Spirit in the faithful. So may I ask this question to clarify my understanding of your statement. By your statement, you believe that the significance of Pentecost is quantified by magnitude of the outpouring and not the impact it has on the individual. Am I right to understand that you agree that the OT saints were born from above by the Spirit of God?In ChristJeff
How do you see Christ according to this Scripture providing the light of Life to every man coming into the world? Please do not forget that everything that has been created is created throught Christ and for Christ.I think to realise that what you are speaking of here in your post refers to a one way action of God to the earth/man. There is no reciprocal action emminating from man to God in the context of the scriptures used. That is the difference between the priesthood that Philo has been referring to and Jesus' eternal state which you are debating.
Br. Sam,I have no extrabiblical inferences, meaning I have not gleaned these thoughts from another man.Please bear with me for a short while. First, I would like to mention Paul's teaching in Romans 11. "For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree." Romans 11:16-17.Here Paul teaches that branches were broken off. To what people is he refering too?In ChristJeff
I disagree with this statement. The path we walk defines what we are in this world. God created all things for His pleasure. God speaks and creation exists. I don't believe one can seperate the attributes and action that emmanates from deity.No it doesn't. What we are defines the path we walk. Can I define 'attribute' in theological terms? Theologians distinguish between communicable and non communicable attributes of God. God's omniscience, for example, is not communicable. To receive it would mean that the receiver would have to have the same capacity as God. We may become partakers of the divine nature, but divinity is not communicable. An essential attribute is that without which it would not be that thing. eg an essential attribute of a ball might be said to be sphericity (sorry about that for American Football or Rugby enthusiasts. Just bear with me for the sake of the illustration.) In this sense other things might have sphericity but a ball could not be ball without sphericity. It might have other attributes; it might be green or blue. But the absence of those attributes would disqualify our ball from being a ball. Our ball might acquire other attributes; it might acquire greeness or blueness, but these are not essential attributes of the concept of ball.Our ball was always a ball. The Son of God was always the Son of God. As God He has essential attributes, and He has some acquired atrributes. One of the attributes He has acquired in human-ness. This did not diminish his divinity. The Word became flesh, but the Word was God before the Word became flesh.Now Scripture also states, "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." John 1:3 To me this means that Christ's function has always been between the Father and creation. With this thought in mind, let me quote two Scriptures, "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men...That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world." John 1:4, 9Christ's function could only have been 'always between the Father and the creation' if the creation had been 'always'. But because there was God before there was creation it cannot be true to say that Christ's function was 'always' between the Father and creation. It would have to share the attribute of 'eternal-ness' with God, but the creation is not eternal, it 'became'.How do you see Christ according to this Scripture providing the light of Life to every man coming into the world? Please do not forget that everything that has been created is created throught Christ and for Christ.I'm not sure, as we say over here, what this has to do with the price of cabbages! :-D
Br. Zeke,May I attempt to answer your thought with this Scripture. "For I know that My Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth; and after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me! Job 19:25-27 Now we know that there is nothing good in man. According to Romans 3 man is totally depraved. My question to you then is, how can Job's heart yearn for God? How can He know that his Redeemer lives? How can he know about Christ coming to earth? In Christ Jeff
Br. Ron, As God He has essential attributes, and He has some acquired atrributes. One of the attributes He has acquired in human-ness. This did not diminish his divinity.The way I see things is that because Jesus was with God before creation, He also knew the sufferings He would endure before creation. 1 Peter 1:11, "searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them, was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow." In this Scripture, as in Isaiah, we are told of some of this suffering prior to the actual event. Since Christ is the word of God, and as He stated, "In the volume of the book it is written of Me to do Your will, O God." Hebrews 10:7 It is my belief according to Scripture that Christ already knew the sufferings of man. Was not Christ omniscient prior to His incarnation?In ChristJeff
It is my belief according to Scripture that Christ already knew the sufferings of man. Was not Christ omniscient prior to His incarnation?You are changing the grounds of your argument. This question was specifically answered two postings ago. His omniscience is a non-communicable attribute; of course He knew before His incarnation. But knowing is not doing. You cannot have a functioning mediator without connections at both ends of the circuit.His omniscience was a non-acquired attribute. His priestly ministry could not have had any function or purpose when God was alone in Himself. A mediator is a link, you have to have something to link to other than God; before creation God was complete in Himself and had no need for a mediator.Please read Hebrews again and see how many times the writer uses the word 'Jesus'without any other designation. It is because 'Jesus' is the human name of the Word who became flesh. Hebrews is stressing the humanity of Christ because it is an essential aspect of his mediatorial work. It was through Him becoming human that He accomplished our salvation on the cross, and it is through His remaining human that his mediatorial ministry continues. He never became 'omniscient': He was always ominiscient. But He did become human, and Saviour and High Priest; these were acquired.
I agree that Jesus was always omnicient. He is God. Alreadly knowing what He was about to suffer, His anguish was real, even to the extent that blood came out or His pores. It seems at this point our understanding of omnicience and all that it entails differ from one another. So be it.I have another question pretaining to the new covenant. The Holy Spirit is the power by which the new covenant is secured or enacted. If you agree with this crude statement, my question is based on that work of the Spirit. What Scripture do you see as most concisely explaining the outcome of the work of the Spirit according to the parameters of the new covenant?In ChristJeff
My question to you then is, how can Job's heart yearn for God? How can He know that his Redeemer lives? How can he know about Christ coming to earth?By the grace of God. ;-)
Br Sam and Jeremy,I know I have posed questions to you and you may have not had time to respond, but I would like to continue to develop this idea that Paul speaks of in Romans 11. "The Lord called your name, Green Olive Tree, Lovely and of Good Fruit, With the noise of a great tumult He has kindled fire on it, and its branches are broken." Jer. 11:16As I have asked Sam to identify who Paul was speaking about in Romans 11, I also now ask who is Jeremiah speaking of in this verse?The NT is an outline of the mysteries of God. The OT reveals the depth of those mysteries.In ChristJeff
rookie wrote:I have another question pretaining to the new covenant. The Holy Spirit is the power by which the new covenant is secured or enacted. Excuse my padanticness, but I thought it was through the body and blood shed for me? As say this because if we head in the same direction in thought but our biblical foundations are not the same, the building will not stand.
Br. Zeke,I agree with you. The original subject of this thread identifies Christ as the provider of that grace.In ChristJeff
rookie wrote:As I have asked Sam to identify who Paul was speaking about in Romans 11, I also now ask who is Jeremiah speaking of in this verse?Sorry to jump in on others, but I would say he was talking about those Jews who were broken off through unbelief.
Br. Zeke,Paul teaches, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through to death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Romans 5:9-10What is Paul saying here? In ChristJeff
Like the lamb that was slain since the foundation of the world, grace was given because Jesus was going to come to fulfill the divine requirements to step into that grace.
Br Zeke, Yes I agree with you in both situations. The branches were broken off because of their unbelief in their generation. Further, Romans 11 is speaking to a specific generation that lived during the time Jesus was on earth. Jeremiah was also preaching to a coming generation which is not spoken of by Paul in Romans 11. I have to go,In ChristJeff
Br. Zeke,What does it mean to you, "we are saved by His life?"In ChristJeff
rookie wrote:Paul teaches, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through to death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Romans 5:9-10What is Paul saying here? This is a tricky one. the KJV says it this way:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.I think the comas express the thought of Paul quite nicely in my mind maybe not theologically though. it seems from the reading of it that it was the blood that justifies, but it is the power that raised Christ from the dead that gives life.These are not to seperate 'savings' but discriptions of the same action from two perspectives.
Quote: “What does it mean to you, "we are saved by His life?"”Quote: “…it is the power that raised Christ from the dead that gives life. …”For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things ? Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Romans 5:10Romans 8:32 2 Peter 1:2-4
Thankyou Br. Rodger,Grace and peace is given through the divine power. The result of receiving grace through the divine power gives us knowledge of God. All things that come from God through Jesus Christ pretain to godliness and life which will always glorify Him. We have access through Christ to exceedingly great promises that become more precious to us than silver and gold. All these things are given to us who partake of the divine nature, so that we can escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. We are reconciled to God through the blood of Jesus. This enables us to partake of all grace that comes from the Holy Spirit. This grace will lead us away from the world and make us more like Jesus.In Christ Jeff
The NT is an outline of the mysteries of God. The OT reveals the depth of those mysteries.JeffYou have stood this one on its head. The OT gives the outline or outward shape, as do shadows. The NT gives detail, colour and texture.The New is in the Old, concealed.The Old is in the New, revealed.Augustine
Br. Ron,I still stick with my statement. The reasons for my conclusions are based on what Jesus said, "the volume of this book is written of Me to do your will O God." My Savior was refering to the OT. As we see Christ's working in the OT we are taught about the fruits of the Spirit, and the fruits of the flesh. We are taught about heaven and hell. The NT states that the mysteries exists. The OT, illuminated by the Holy Spirit, reveals the depth of the mysteries of the Godhead.In ChristJeff
Jeff,I have no extrabiblical inferences, meaning I have not gleaned these thoughts from another man.Well then, these thoughts did not come from another man, they came from you yourself, the source of inference.Otherwise, what point could you possibly make from Zechariah 3 and 4 when the subject matter at hand in the text is not the outpouring of the Spirit at all? Where did you find that in the text? And if they are not there, you have proven nothing!Sorry to be so blunt, but I fail to see the reasoning behind the citation of Zechariah 3 and 4.First, I would like to mention Paul's teaching in Romans 11. "For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree." Romans 11:16-17.Here Paul teaches that branches were broken off. To what people is he refering too?This refers to the Jews as Zekeo had responded, but I would appreciate if you would just get straight to the point. I fail to see the relevance of this to the question at hand.Sam
The NT states that the mysteries exists. The OT, illuminated by the Holy Spirit, reveals the depth of the mysteries of the Godhead.I thought you had made a typo. You actually believe that the Old Testament contains the greater revelation? No wonder we keep talking past one another. :-? The NT contains the definitive exposition of the OT. I understand now your preoccupation with Melchizedek. You have stood the whole scriptural revelation on its head.I still stick with my statement. The reasons for my conclusions are based on what Jesus said, "the volume of this book is written of Me to do your will O God." My Savior was refering to the OT.And you have misquoted this verse... it reads Then said I, Lo, I am come (In the roll of the book it is written of me) To do thy will, O God. (Heb 10:7 ASV) It does not say the book was written to enable Him to do the Father's will; it says 'in the roll of the book it is written of Me', I come to do thy will. JeffWe have struggled through some difficult conversations but you are on completely wrong ground here, and it is dangerous ground.
I am sorry Ron for misquoting the verse, I only have 15 minutes here and there to participate. Lunch times are the best because I have 45 minutes. However Fridays, I teach a bible study here at work.NKJ, "Therefore, when He came into the world, he said; Sacrifice and offering You did not desire..." What is this? God did not desire sacrifice and offerings. That's part of the OT Laws isn't it?"But a body You have prepared for Me, In burnt offerings and sacrifice for sin You had no pleasure." Jesus was given a body to be sacrificed. Yet God prior to the incarnation of Christ still was not pleased by all the offering for sin. You see what He really desired of His people was that they obey Him. The saints of the OT did obey Him. How was this done?"Then I said, "Behold, I have come- In the volume of the book it is written of Me- to do your will, O God."I look at this, when Jesus says, "In the volume of the book it is written of Me to do your will, O God." I see not only the prophesy of the sacrifice. I also see the work of Jesus on the saints of the OT. Jesus here says the OT Scripture reveal that time after time Jesus doing the will of the Father. Job knew Jesus, that could only be because Jesus revealed Himself to Him. Job 19:25-29.I believe the OT saints were born from above. I believe Jesus revealed Himself through the Holy Spirit to those who did not suffer from unbelief. I believe Jesus has always interceded for those who obey His commands. In ChristJeff
Br. Sam,Understanding comes from the path on which one traveles. I can not explain to you my understanding unless I show you the path that I have traveled. It is important that you understand the significance of the branches.If you will not research it on your own by reading the Scriptures I will be of no help to you. If you need another man's support:One more thought. A.W. Tozer believed and taught that the OT saints were born from above. But you see, part of the New Covenant promise states, "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying,"Know the Lord, for all shall know Me..." Hebrews 8:11In ChristJeff
rookie wrote:I believe the OT saints were born from above. I believe Jesus revealed Himself through the Holy Spirit to those who did not suffer from unbelief. I believe Jesus has always interceded for those who obey His commands. Hey Rookie,After all you have said at least I know now in concise form what you believe. :-P
JeffI look at this, when Jesus says, "In the volume of the book it is written of Me to do your will, O God." I see not only the prophesy of the sacrifice. I also see the work of Jesus on the saints of the OT. Jesus here says the OT Scripture reveal that time after time Jesus doing the will of the Father.You are still misquoting the verse and the reason you are misquoting it is because you have a fixed idea of what it should be saying. It is not 'it is written of me to do your will'. It is 'written, in the roll of the book, I am come to do thy will, O God.' This is what is written "I am come to do thy will, O God.'the quotation Sacrifice and offering thou hast no delight in; Mine ears hast thou opened: Burnt-offering and sin-offering hast thou not required. Then said I, Lo, I am come; In the roll of the book it is written of me: I delight to do thy will, O my God; Yea, thy law is within my heart. (Psa 40:6-8 ASV) already refers to a book in which things are written. As this Davidic psalm is earlier than everything from 1Kings to Malachi it is clearly not referring to the Old Testament; most of which was not in existence.No one knows quite what this refers to. My guess is that David had written out some personal covenant as a way of making his commitment that much more permanent. The OT is not in view at all in this statement. It may even have been an allusion to things written in his own heart, which he pictures as a written record.
Is this not the exact description of the New Covenant according to the writer of the book of Hebrews?Hebrews 8:10"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."I will be teaching from the book of Jeremiah. Just so one will know, Jeremiah said this, "Then I said, "I will not make mention of Him, nor speak anymore in His name." But His word was in my heart like a burning fire shut up in my bones; I was weary of holding it back, and I could not." Jeremiah 20:9 Jeremiah knew that the word of God was in his heart. This is one of the promises of the New Covenant.Now Jeremiah was sent to call the nation of Israel to repent. God condemns all the priests and false prophets of that day because they had led the sheep astray. How did they lead the sheep astray? "Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. The make you worthless, they speak a vision of their own heart. Not from the mouth of the Lord. They continually say to those who despise Me, "The Lord has said, You shall have peace and to everyone who walks according to the dictates of his own heart they say, No evil shall come upon you." Here the Lord teaches us that there were sheep who were led astray, the prophets always saying, "you shall live in peace." I hear the same manifestations today. You see the begining of this thread teaches us how obedience secures the grace. Yet what do many preach? You are saved by the death of Christ. Righteousness is imputed because of His death. Yet, Scripture teaches that we are reconciled to God by His death. This means that once we were dead because we were seperated from God. But now we are allowed to partake of His lovingkindness. This is the power of the blood. Yet what does Scripture say? How are we saved from His wrath? Paul teaches, "...we shall be saved by His life." Romans 5:9 All grace as the thread began comes through the Life of Jesus Christ. One cannot be sustained by our Lord if one does not walk with our Lord. What does the Lord say to the priests and prophets of Jeremiah's day? "I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran. I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. But if the had stood in My counsel, and had cause My people to hear My words, then they would have turned them from their evil way and from the evil of their doings. Jeremiah 23:21-22 You see if one is a shepherd, one is called to preach repentance. But the people do not want to hear this. Here is a thought from a chinese christian. "Western Christians often ask us why there is persecution in China and other countries and not in the West? Do you boldly preach the truth of God's word to sinners inside and outside your churches?" If you do, you will soon find out that there is persecution wherever you are." Holiness is required. And the only means by which one can fulfill this requirment is by following our Lord's commands that are spoken to us through the Holy Spirit.
The Lord through Jeremiah called for judgement of this generation. "The Lord called your name, Green Olive Tree, Lovely and of Good Fruit. With the noise of a great tumult He has kindled fire on it. and its branches are broken. Jeremiah 11:16 Paul teaches of the same situation occuring during his day. Another generation of people are broken of the Green Olive Tree. "And if some of the branches were broken off,and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became partakers of the root and fatness of the olive tree." Romans 11:17 Here Paul state that the gentiles were allowed to partake of the same root and fatness that the other branches have experienced. Paul teaches that, "For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. " Romans 11:16. Jeremiah 2:3, "Israel was holiness to the Lord, the firstfruits of His increase..." As Paul has taught, all that partake of the root is holy. Here in Jeremiah, God said that Israel was the firstfruits of His increase." You see we are not talking about the Lord's provisions for the nation of Israel, we are talking about a work of God that produces holiness in His people. Paul teaches about this type of increase that can come only from God. "So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase." 1 Corinthians 3:7 Do you see where Paul gets his understanding of Scripture from. Is it not the OT?So we have the teaching of the Green Olive Tree. We are taught by Paul that all the branches that are sustained by the root is holy. And that these branches do not only exist after Christ's ascension back to heaven. I ask this question, if Scripture says that the branches are holy, and that all branches partake of the same root, can there be any difference in the quality of holiness?
Now in Jeremiah 21, we have a distinction made between those who will be destroyed for there rejection of God and those who will be cared for by God. "One basket had very good figs, like the figs that are first ripe, and the other basket had very bad figs which could not be eaten, they were so bad....Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel; "Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge those who are carried away captive from Judah, whom I have sent out of this place for their own good, into the land of the Chaldeans." Paul teaches the same principle in Romans 8:27-28, "Now, He who searches the hearts knows the mindof the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God, and we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose." Here we see Paul teaching the same principle. In Jeremiah, those who were of the basket of good figs, although being cast into captivity and slavery, God was working out His purpose for the good of those He called out. Do you see where Paul gets his thoughts? "For I will set My eyes on them for good, and I will bring them back to this land, I will build them and not pull them down, and I will plant them and not pluck them up." Jeremiah 24:6 We know some of the saints who are part of this captivity. Read the book of Daniel. You will see how God cared for those who loved Him. Also, please notice how many times God says, "I will." This is His stated pupose."Then I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the Lord, and they shall be My people, and I will be their God, for they shall return to Me, with their whole heart." Jeremiah 24:7 God promises that He will give them a heart to know Me... How is this done? Is this not the promise of the New Covenant? Again in Hebrews 8:10, "...I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." But how does God do this? "For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword. piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the hearts." Hebrews 4:12 This is where obedience of those who hear the living and powerful word experience the "seting apart," for holiness. This is the power of God unto salvation. This is the power of the Life that saves. Does not Jesus through the Holy Spirit speak to us and give to us what is His? Let's continue.
In Hebrews, 8:11, "None of them shall teach his neighbors, and none his brother, saying, "Know the Lord, for all shall know Me, for the least of them to the greatest of them." This is another principle or precept of the New Covenant. This is a promise. But what does it mean? In Jeremiah, chapter 23, the Lord is condemning the priests and the prophets for scattering the sheep. "Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture! says the Lord..." vs 1. "And as for the prophet and the priest and the people who say, "The oracle of the Lord!" I will even plunder that man and his house. Thus every one of you shall say to his neighbor, and every one to his brother, "WHAT HAS THE LORD ANDSWERED? AND, WHAT HAD THE LORD SPOKEN?" Here we learn that because these people have scattered His sheep by following their own hearts, God promise that no one will here God answer their prayers, no one will here God speak. So to reverse this aspects of this judgement, those who hear God's answers and hear God's voice will know Him. This is a promise of the New Covenant. Jesus stated, "It is written in the prophets, "And they shall all be taught by God, Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me." John 6:45 In another place, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63 In another place, "If you abide in My word,, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. Jesus promises to speak and answer our prayers. The outcome of this relationship will free us from the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. We will die to our old ways and learn His righteousness. Listen to what is promise in Jeremiah 23:5-8, "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness..."Please notice that God said He would raise a Branch of rightousness. Pleas notice that the word branch is captialized. I do not know according to language and translation this is capitalized, but I do know from Scripture. This represents God raising another generation of holy people. This represents another branch that receives the increase that comes from the root. "A King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgement and righteousness in the earth." (still vs 5) Remember, "For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword...and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." In Jeremiah, is says that this King will " execute judgement and righteousness." The word of God living and powerful will jugde our evil intents and will show us His desire for us. "In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; Now this is His name by which He will be called; THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. vs 6.Please notice, "THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS." Do we not teach that this is part of the New Covenant. Is not Jesus our righteousness? But one must be careful here. This does not imply that we are righteous without Him dwelling in us. And for His to dwell in us we must abide in Him. Only by hearing Him speak and answer do we know of His righteousness. This is the promise of the New Covenant. Now listen to these next verses. "Therefore, behold the days are coming, says the Lord, that they shall no longer say, "As the Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt. but, As the Lord lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them." And they shall dwell in their own land."This promise is made to those who according to God's purpose, are brought back during the time of the books of Nehemiah and Ezra. Zechariah prophisied of this time. "Hear O Joshua, the high priest, you and your companions who sit before you, for they are a wonderous sign; for behold, I am bringing forth My servant the BRANCH for behold, the stone that I have laid before Joshua;..." ZEC. 3:8Here we see another branch, again receiving the increase that is from the root which is holy. Why is this branch capitalized? Is it not because this BRANCH shares the righteousness of its' King. THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.' "For behold, the stone that I have laid before Joshua; Upon the stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave its inscription,' says the Lord of hosts. And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. In that day, says the Lord of hosts, Everyone will invite his neighbor under his vine and under his fig tree." Zech 3:9-10 Is this not a representation of the Holy Spirit, and the result for all those who enter into the New Covenant? Hebrews 8:12, "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds i will remember no more." What does the New Covenant promise, holiness through obedience to His word. In ChristJeff
In the light of everything you have said, how does that make me live? What would be the practical outworking of such teaching. You mentioned that you hold bible studies for people, and from what I have read this is quite a substantial amount of material that you have studied. It is all very interesting but what is the motive for sharing?
Hey also Rookie, you still hav,nt answered Ron's post about mis- quoting the scripture why? :-) Also you sayI believe the OT saints were born from above. I believe Jesus revealed Himself through the Holy Spirit to those who did not suffer from unbelief. I believe Jesus has always interceded for those who obey His commands. There is no evidence for new birth to all who believed in the OT.They where saved under a different covenant.Today we are saved by the New covenant.If all where born from above as you say, then there is no need for Christ's death and ressurection.
There is no evidence for new birth to all who believed in the OT.Amen, there is nothing, only conjecture. If it was so important you would wonder why God would have made it so vague that you would have to study, I would presume for a long time to find the evidence.They where saved under a different covenant.Today we are saved by the New covenant.If all where born from above as you say, then there is no need for Christ's death and ressurection.But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son...Gal 4:4I think that anything that God did in the OT was only down in lue of the fact that Jesus was going to come and fulfill the requirements of God holiness. So God revealing himself to Job, the way that Job saw God could only have come with a knowing of God intimately(Job29). I cannot answer whether they were born from above, the schools still out on that one for me. But, I do believe that if they were it was only because God was waiting for the fulfillment of time for those mens sins to be accounted for in Christ.Rookie:The New covenant meant that all would be able to know me from the least to the greatest. If all OT saints were as you say born from above, which meant that they would know him, why would God call a New covenant? What would be the point? I have been meditating on the ideas that you have put forward and it makes sense what you are saying. It is for that very reason that I am testing the soundness of it because, something just doesn't sit right. Maybe it is because it goes against a personal paradigm of understanding or because it is false, either way we will hopefully find the right way. I have to state that I am not a theolgian and neither am I the benchmark of truth but I do after all have The Spirit in me, so I will listen.;-) The NT states that the mysteries exists. The OT, illuminated by the Holy Spirit, reveals the depth of the mysteries of the Godhead.The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. Heb 10:1,2These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Col 2:17...you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. Eph 3:4-59and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God...Eph 3:9 The NT expounds on the mysteries of Christ and his church, That is what Paul laboured for(Col 1:29) That OT definitley has principles that are confirmed or explained in the NT. And that is what happens with Paul, he knew the OT probably better than anyone, he took from the OT and explained its application in regards to Christs coming, hence the NT.
Br. Delboy,I did respond you must have missed it. I quote from the NKJ and this was in my post following Ron's post."Then I said, "Behold, I have come- In the volume of the book it is written of Me- to do your will, O God."Br. Ron seems to suggest that the book that Jesus is refering to is not the OT Scriptures. I know of two other books that are mentioned in Scriptures, those being books that contain the judgement and the names that are written in the book of life. Going back to the Scripture in Hebrew in chapter 10, the writer is stating comparing the New Covenant with the Old Covenant. He begins, "For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. " The continual sacrifice of animals meant that those who continued to offer the sacrifice had to do so because they continued to sin. There is nothing in the flesh that can make a man not sin. You see man does not know the will of God because of the sin of Adam. Only those who have the Spirit of God can begin to walk along the path that He chooses for us. Only Jesus, who states in the verse in contention here, He always did the will of the Father. He is the only one who can make us perfect. vs 2, "For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshippers, once purified would have had no more consciousness of sins. " Now one would look at this verse and say that the writer is talking only comparing the sacrifice of the blood of bulls and goats with the most perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. Yet look at what verse 2 says, "For the worshippers, once purified would have had no more consciousness of sins. " Does Scripture teach that we who are of the New Covenant have no consciouness of sin? What does Apostle John say? "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9Here I believe is an explaination of what the writer of Hebrews is pointing to. The practicing of the sacrificial requirements of the law was to make you confess your sins. Imagine the horror of placing your hand on the head of a bull and then seeing the priest cut its throat. Imagine all the blood. This was only the shadow of the real work of God. "For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presences of God for us." Hebrews 9:24 Is this not what John was talking about. Christ entered heaven, in the presences of God for us. Now please remember, Christ was in heaven before He came to earth. You will shortly see this in the following verses. "not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another-" Hebrews 9:25 The sacrifice of Jesus happened once in time. The priestly duties of men were continuous. Now look to the significance of the next verse."He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." Hebrews 9:26What is this verse saying, does it not say that the sacrifice of Jesus happened in the end of the ages. Yet this sacrifice covered each individual that followed Him in faith from the foundations of the world. Look again, "He would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world. I believe this verse is also talking about the ongoing priestly duties of our Lord and Savior since the founding of this world. Going back to Hebrews 10:5, "Therefore, when He came into the world, He said," Now this Scripture is pointing to His work done at the end of the ages. He came into the world to complete the sacrifice that had been required by the Father for all who would believe in Him. "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire," God never desired that men commit sin. Therefore He never needed the scrifice or offerings of men.Sorry I will continue laterIn ChristJeff
Br. Ron seems to suggest that the book that Jesus is refering to is not the OT Scriptures. I know of two other books that are mentioned in Scriptures, those being books that contain the judgement and the names that are written in the book of life.What I said was that the quotation is from the Psalms:Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.(Psa 40:6-8 KJV)My point was that this is David's testimony, that puts it at about 1000 BC. 1000BC is somewhere around 2Samuel. Anything written after this could not have been what David was referring to. The Sinai Covenant was written is a book;And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. (Exo 24:7 KJV) but this is not what David is referring to. In fact, there is no OT scripture that Ps 40 is referring to. This is why I said it was probably a poetic allusion to David's own heart. Things 'written' have a settled nature about them. This is almost certainly David's personal testimony expressed in other places as 'my heart is fixed' etc.David was a man after God's own heart, and the disposition we see in David is seen even more perfectly in Christ who shares this testimony with David; I come to do thy will, O God.Spurgeon sees in it a reference to the Divine Decrees: “In the volume of the book it is written of me.” In the eternal decree it is thus recorded. The mystic roll of predestination which providence gradually unfolds, contained within it, to the Saviour's knowledge, a written covenant, that in the fulness of time the divine I should descend to earth to accomplish a purpose which hecatombs of bullocks and rams could not achieve.The fact is, and you do not seem to be able to grasp this, that there is NO BOOK ANYWHERE that has these words 'written in it'. That was true when David penned the Psalm and it was true when Hebrews was written. This 'book' is a representation of the fixed state of the heart to do the will of God.
continuing on,As I stated before, the sacrificial laws always condemned the sin of the man. The law was given as a tutor to lead us to Christ. The blood of these animals covered the sin until the end of the ages had come. Where Jesus says,"But a body You have prepared for Me." This is speaking of the work that was foreordained by God before the foundations of the world. This verse speaks of the pre-incarnate Christ speaking about a task that was still before Him to accomplish. Yet remember He is God in the trinity. Vs 6 and 7 "In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure. Then I said, "Behold, I have come- In the volume of the book it is written of Me- to do Your will, O God." Now this is speaking of Christ's perfect submission, His sacrifice was done according to the will of the Father. This is where maybe Ron and I part. I believe that when Jesus states, "Then I said, "Behold, I have come- He is speaking of His death to obedience. Jesus says that, "In the volume of the book it is written of Me-" I believe Jesus is refering to the prophisied sacrifice that He would come to earth to do. Yet I believe that when Jesus says the volume of the book, I believe He is talking about the entire OT. I believe that everytime Jesus interceded for an OT saint, He looked forward to the time when His work would be complete. And I believe that when Jesus finishes this statement, "To do Your will, O God." He is actually speaking of the entire written word of God witnessing of Him. Listen to what Jesus says to the religious leaders of His day. "But I have a greater witness than John's'; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish- the very works that I do- bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me, You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. John 5:36-39Do you see here that Jesus is refering to the OT Scriptures and that they testify of Him. I believe the writer of Hebrews also believed this. And what was the stumbling block before these Jews He was speaking to? Jesus declared," But you do not have His word abiding in you." Do you see that Jesus is accusing them of failing to have the word of God, ABIDING IN THEM. Would the nature of God in Jesus enable Him to accuse them for something that was not available to them. I think not. And what was the reason that the word of God was not abiding in them? Jesus declares that, "Him you do not believe." Further on in vs 39, Jesus declares that the OT Scriptures testify of Him. In vs. 40 Jesus declares, "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."Jesus declares to them, "But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you."So I believe as this thread began that all grace that enables all saints to abide in His word comes through Godly obedience to the Holy Spirit. This is the law of faith which overcomes our sinful nature unto salvation. In ChristJeff
Br. RonWhat about the book of Job?In ChristJeff
Br Zeke,In the light of everything you have said, how does that make me live? I have found that many Evangelicals say what I have said in the past. That is, "Why do I need the OT. It doesn't apply to me. We are living in the NT. If one believes that the OT saints were born from above, then one would search the OT Scriptures with most diligence. For there is where God reveals His nature and man's nature. I have given an example of this in another thread, 1 Timothy 2:1-4.Here we learn an example of how we should pray for the authority over us, that we may live in peace and godliness.If you don't believe the OT saints are born from above, then you have very little to glean from in the NT as to how one should live.Why did Paul always pray this way? "And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment, that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ, being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ..." Philippians 1:9-11Why did Paul pray this way? "For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding. That you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy..." Colossians 1:9-10We as NT believers suffer as the Corinthians did. What does Paul say to the Corinthians? "And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ." 1 Corinthians 3:1I testify that our spiritual understanding will grow as we learn to see the ways of God in the OT. He does not change the ways that He saves a man from Hell. In ChristJeff
What about the book of Job?The phrase is not in the book of Job either.
Now this is speaking of Christ's perfect submission, His sacrifice was done according to the will of the Father. This is where maybe Ron and I part. I believe that when Jesus states, "Then I said, "Behold, I have come- He is speaking of His death to obedience. Jesus says that, "In the volume of the book it is written of Me-" I believe Jesus is refering to the prophisied sacrifice that He would come to earth to do. Yet I believe that when Jesus says the volume of the book, I believe He is talking about the entire OT. I believe that everytime Jesus interceded for an OT saint, He looked forward to the time when His work would be complete. And I believe that when Jesus finishes this statement, "To do Your will, O God." He is actually speaking of the entire written word of God witnessing of Him.At the risk of boring our readers, this is a quotation from Psalm 40 which was penned by David somewhere around 1000 BC. Even if you add Job, and there is no evidence that David knew of Job, this leaves well over half the OT unwritten. How could David be referring to the entire written word of God when it hadn't been written?Let's put it into pages. At the time that David wrote Psalm 40, at most, 501 pages of my OT had been written. (although many think only the Pentateuch was in written form at this time.) My Bible has 1184 OT pages, which gives 683 pages, well over half, which David could not possibly have been referring to. It cannot possibly be referring to the entire OT in Psalm 40.
Br. Delboy,You wrote,They where saved under a different covenant.What covenant do you mean? Paul only teaches about two covenants. "...For these are the two covenants; the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar-for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.... Now we brethren, as Isaac was,are children of the promise.. But as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now." Galatians 4:24-29So which covenant are you refering too?In Christ Jeff
Br. Ron,As you know the revelation of God through the written word grew with time. This does not mean that the work of God changed. My pointing to the book of Job, was in reference to the fact that Job also knew His Savior and that Savior was Christ. Job 19:25-29.From my understanding Job supposedly lived during the same time as Abraham. So when was the book of Job penned? How does Job know His Savior?In ChristJeff
My pointing to the book of Job, was in reference to the fact that Job also knew His Savior and that Savior was Christ. Job 19:25-29.I presume you are referring to For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: (Job 19:25 KJV)I know that my member of parliament lives, but I have never met him and have no relationship with him. To know 'that' is to be acquainted with a fact; to know 'Him' is life everlasting. Job certainly did not know of the Mediator; "There is no umpire between us, Who may lay his hand upon us both. (Job 9:33 NASB) That would have to wait until He came who was both God and man, to 'lay his hand upon us both'.
Br. Ron wrote,I know that my member of parliament lives, but I have never met him and have no relationship with him. To know 'that' is to be acquainted with a fact; to know 'Him' is life everlasting. To give the readers a greater understanding of what Job said, "For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth; and after my skin is destroyed this I know. That in my flesh I shall see God. Whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!" I believe Job is talking about everlasting life. Please note, "and after my skin is destroyed this I know. That in my flesh I shall see God. Whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another." Is this not the promise we all hope for? Also it is quite a stretch to say Job does not know his Redeemer. For Scripture tells us that Jobs' heart condition is, " How my heart yearns within me! This particular verse reminds me of Paul's teaching to the Galatians, "And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, Abba Father!." Galatians 4:6 We all know, according to Romans 3 that all are depraved. Therefore it is only God who could have placed this love for Him IN Job's heart.Also how would Job know about his Redeemer and Him seting foot upon the earth? How did Job know that after his flesh was destroyed that he would again see his Redeemer?Also when do you think the book of Job was penned?In ChristJeff
rookie wrote:I have found that many Evangelicals say what I have said in the past. That is, "Why do I need the OT. It doesn't apply to me. We are living in the NT. They obviously haven't read their bibles:Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did...(1 Cor 10:6)These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. (1 Cor 10:11) So Amen to that side of your thought.If one believes that the OT saints were born from above, then one would search the OT Scriptures with most diligence. Well, all I can say is that other than you tying scriptures together from different dipensations, I do not see any any plain scriptural teaching as to them being born again. Moses glory fading as he came from the mountain, (there is probably knowone in the OT who new God like him) is an indication that it was not the new birth of the NT because:Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was...(2 Cor3:7)We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away.(2 Cor 3:13) And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.(2 Cor 3:18)His revelation and capacity to contain God was fading but now under the ministry of the Holy Spirit the NT patern is glory to glory. I just sense that what they had was not a permanent indwelling of the Spirit, but lives that were inflenced with close encounters of the God kind.Shalom
rookie wrote:I believe Job is talking about everlasting life. Also it is quite a stretch to say Job does not know his Redeemer. I think the same as this guy:Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad. (John 8:56)God in his grace I believe gave these gentelman a look at him, and what he was going to accomplish, but it by no means indicates that they were a) born again, (b) filled with the indwelling spirit.Which I believe is the crux of this whole discussion.
Br. Zeke wrote:God in his grace I believe gave these gentelman a look at him, and what he was going to accomplish, but it by no means indicates that they were a) born again, (b) filled with the indwelling spirit.Which I believe is the crux of this whole discussion."Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all." Romans 4:16All the seed who believed received the grace of God. They were saved not by works but by grace. So the crux of this whole discussion more revolves around, how does God save those who believe. We know from 2 Peter 1:2-3, "Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and Savior Jesus Christ, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue." The grace of God comes by knowing Him, given to us through "His divine power." All things that pertain to life come from this divine power. So the work of the Holy Spirit is central to us knowing Him. I say Job knew Him. Abraham knew Him through faith. We also enter into the promise if we are of the same faith as Abraham. That is why I say there is no difference in the work of God. All grace is dispensed by the Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit will teach us to walk the same path as our Savior. That is how anyone gets to know the Savior.Got to go.In ChristJeff
Also how would Job know about his Redeemer and Him seting foot upon the earth? How did Job know that after his flesh was destroyed that he would again see his Redeemer?How do you know all the things you have never experienced? By revelation.To give the readers a greater understanding of what Job said, "For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth; and after my skin is destroyed this I know. That in my flesh I shall see God. Whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!"I believe Job is talking about everlasting life. Please note, "and after my skin is destroyed this I know. That in my flesh I shall see God. Whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another." Is this not the promise we all hope for?He has had a revelation about resurrection. So have I but I have never experienced it. You made the claim that Job knew his Saviour and backed it with these verses. I am only pointing out that these verse do not say what you want them to say.What happened to your comments about Job not knowing about a Mediator?The OT saints looked forward to eternal life after death, but there is no biblical evidence to indicate that they experienced eternal life before death.The date of Job? No one knows but the fact that he seems to act as a priest for his family and that there is no reference to the Sinai Covenant indicate that he lived somewhere between 2000-1500 BC. When was it written? No one knows.
Br. Ron wrote:He has had a revelation about resurrection. So have I but I have never experienced it. You made the claim that Job knew his Saviour and backed it with these verses. I am only pointing out that these verse do not say what you want them to say.My point is that to have been given the revelation of God is in fact the grace of God operating on one's life. That grace enables one to know God. Is this not part of the New Covenant promise? You see man is totally depraved, so when one looks to the OT saints with this fact in mind, one must conclude that there is nothing good found in the flesh of men. OT or NT this precept is the same. Remember, Paul teaches that even when the Spirit of God indwell man, the flesh profits nothing. So when God reveals Himself to man, OT or NT, this is the willful act of God dispensing His grace on that individual. This dispensation of grace may come in the form of visions, dreams, and visitations all of which is according to His divine power. Those who receive this revelation experience the understanding that God chooses to give them. It is this understanding of God that begins to cause our hearts to desire the things of God. So God's grace was upon Job. The revelation that God gave him caused his heart to yearn for his Savior. The God given experiences of Job I submit are no different then what a NT saint experiences. Brother Ron, you yourself just admitted this precept in the quote above. In ChristJeff
Br. Ron wrote:What happened to your comments about Job not knowing about a Mediator?The revelation of God's plan increased with time. The mysteries of God have always existed. Yet man's understanding of these mysteries are given according to the will of God. For an OT saint living during the time of Abraham and Job, knowing the doctrine of the Trinity is not essential to knowing that God is working according to His divine will and power. The Father calls, the Son ransoms and teaches, and the Holy Spirit communicates. There is an interesting passage relating to your question of a mediator. I will use a traslation from the Youngs Bible. "If there is by him a messenger, an interpreter-one of a thousand, to declare for man his uprightness; then He doth favour him and saith, "Ransom him from going down to the pit, I have found an atonement." Fresher is his flesh than a child's, he returneth to the days of his youth. He maketh supplication unto God, and He accepteth him, and he seeth His face with shouting, and He returneth to man His righteousness. Job 33:23-26Please note especially the part of the verse that talks of a ransom, of an atonement. The atonement mentioned here does not speak of the blood of bulls and goats. Also please note in verse 26, "He maketh supplication unto God," This sounds like the description of the duties of our High Priest. Also note in the last part of verse 26, "and He returneth to man His righteousness." This is speaking of God imparting His righteousness into man. Again this sounds like the work of our High Priest.What do you think?In Christ Jeff
Br. Zeke wrote:His revelation and capacity to contain God was fading but now under the ministry of the Holy Spirit the NT patern is glory to glory. I just sense that what they had was not a permanent indwelling of the Spirit, but lives that were inflenced with close encounters of the God kind.Zeke, I believe that a New Covenant believer has the promise of living from glory to glory, yet do we actually experience this promise. You see, Paul prays for all believers that they truly would live a life that typifies the life you mentioned. Why would Paul have to pray for something like this?In ChristJeff
Hi rookie,it's been answered in posts since mine,but when i said "different" I meant new.Also, bro, ZekeO made such clear reference to our discussions,Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was...(2 Cor3:7)We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away.(2 Cor 3:13) And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.(2 Cor 3:18)
Br. Delboy you wrote:There is no evidence for new birth to all who believed in the OT.They where saved under a different covenantThen you wrote:Hi rookie,it's been answered in posts since mine,but when i said "different" I meant new.Are you agreeing that the OT saints were under the New Covenant?In ChristJeff
My point is that to have been given the revelation of God is in fact the grace of God operating on one's life. That grace enables one to know God. Is this not part of the New Covenant promise?If you can't differentiate between light and grace you are in deep trouble. There is many a man who has the revelation without the impartation.
"If there is by him a messenger, an interpreter-one of a thousand, to declare for man his uprightness; then He doth favour him and saith, "Ransom him from going down to the pit, I have found an atonement." Fresher is his flesh than a child's, he returneth to the days of his youth. He maketh supplication unto God, and He accepteth him, and he seeth His face with shouting, and He returneth to man His righteousness. Job 33:23-26This is the reply of Elihu who presents himself as the answer to Job's request;Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay.(Job 33:6 KJV) JOb had asked for an 'umpire' or mediator, this is Elihu stepping into that role. He claims to speak by divine revelation and rebukes JOb for 'striving against Him who gives no account of His behaviour'.Have you read the rest of the chapter? Elihu is talking about the way people react to their circumstances. He has Job in mind, obviously, but he speaks, hypothetically, of a man whose condition gets worse and worse until he is at death's door. It seems hopeless, but... 'if there is by him a messenger, an interpreter...' Did you notice that 'if' at the beginning of this sentence? This is a reference to the intervention of someone with the cure. This person has the information that Job needs. This person has found an atonement. He has found something to 'cover' the situation and recovery begins.At the end of this chapter Elihu says;If thou hast any thing to say, answer me: speak, for I desire to justify thee. If not, hearken unto me: hold thy peace, and I shall teach thee wisdom. (Job 33:32-33 KJV) Whether or not this information was 'good news' to Job we don't know as he had, in the words of Elihu, nothing to say, so Elihu continued with his advice.This is really Elihu encouraging Job that there is still hope. He uses the language of relgion. The word 'interpreter' is sometimes translated 'teacher' in the KJV. It has a definite sense of 'mediator' but the mediator that Elihu is referring to is quite human. Job ought not to have been ignorant of atonement although his sacrifices from Chapter 1 are burnt offerings rather than sin offerings. Still the ideas of atonement and propitiation were common to all religions in this region around this time. You will notice that the 'mediator/interpreter' prays to God who is favourable to the interpreter and his 'patient'. The patient is then restored to 'righteousness' (right standing before God). and confesses his sin...Elihu continues, 'God often does this...' There is no doubt that men were justified by faith in OT times; that truth is borne out in the OT and the NT. But we are not talking about justification we are talking about regeneration.What do you think?I think your ability to pluck obscure verses from scripture to further your case is extraordinary.
Br. Ron wrote:If you can't differentiate between light and grace you are in deep trouble. There is many a man who has the revelation without the impartation.Light exists because of grace. "That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world." John 1:9 Only those who respond to the Light begin to understand that light. Job speaks about the same light as I, listen to his thoughts."Oh, that I were as in months past, As in the days when God watched over me; when His lamp shone upon my head, and when by His light I walked through darkness;..." Job 29:2-3Likewise Elihu teaches us:"He will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit. And his life shall see the light." Behold, God works all these things, twice, in fact, three times with a man, to bring back his soul from the Pit. That he may be enlightened with the light of life." Job 33:28-30John writes: "He who has the Son has life he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. 1 John 5:12You tell me did Job have the light of life? What does Scripture say?In ChristJeff
rookie wrote:Zeke, I believe that a New Covenant believer has the promise of living from glory to glory, yet do we actually experience this promise. Whats interesting to note that it is something that is mentioned as attainable in the NT, but no where in the OT is there even a reference that they could experience that as a 'believer'. All they had was the law telling them what to do. With the temple being the place where God dwelled among them.Why would Paul have to pray for something like this?The hearers of Pauls messages were believing Jews and gentiles. To the Jews it meant that the ability to live as God requires comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit not by living according to the law. To the gentiles it was meant to keep them from falling into the error of thinking that revelation came from observing the law, outward traditions.p.s. I think using the term Old covenant and New covenant makes a bit more sense in my brain, as to understanding the chronology of things.
Br. Zeke wrote:To the gentiles it was meant to keep them from falling into the error of thinking that revelation came from observing the law, outward traditions.So would you conclude that even though we have the gift of the indwelling Spirit, we too can fall into error? And therefore that is why Paul constantly prays for the believers.In Christ Jeff
Br. Ron wrote:I think your ability to pluck obscure verses from scripture to further your case is extraordinary.I do not view these Scriptures in like manner. Obscurity only exist because we choose no to learn from them. Darkness exists because we choose not to follow the Light. The light will illuminate that which the world only sees as darkness. One can have the mind of a lawyer and the knowledge of language and yet not see.In ChristJeff
"That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world." John 1:9 or There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world. (Joh 1:9 ASV) The ASV gets the sense better here. The true light was coming into the world; the light that enlightens every man. That light has enlightened every man. Can you see a distinction here between the light and its enlightening power. Not every man has seen the Light (Christ) but all men have been 'enlightened' by that light.You will see that just because 'everyman is enlightened' does not mean that every man has received saving grace, or has seen the Light. To benefit from the light does not mean we have met the source of that light. Job and his companions were all, to some measure, enlightened. Even the man in the darkest pagan society has some enlightening. Your question is 'did Job have the light of life'? Well the scripture doesn't answer that question. It does say that he 'had' the light of life. What Elihu says is that a man 'may be enlightened with the light of light'. That is not the same as receiving the life. This is enlightenment, not life.
"There are those who rebel against the light; They do not know its ways nor abide in its paths. The murderer rises with the light: he kills the poor and needy; and in the night he is like a thief. The eye of the adulterer waits for the twilight, saying, "No eye will see me; and he disguises his face. In the dark they break into houses which they marked for themselves in the daytime; they do not know the light, For the morning is the same to them as the shadow of death; if someone recognizes them, they are in the terrors of the shadow of death." Job 24:13-17This Scripture speaks of God's light in the same way Apostle John does."Upon whom does His light not rise? How then can man be righteous before God? Or how can he be pure who is born of a woman? If even the moon does not shine, and the stars are not pure in His sight, how much less man, who is a maggot, and a son of man, who is a worm?This Scripture talks about the depravity of man, just as Paul teaches.Do you see the hidden treasures of the book of Job? This book shatters many aspects and thoughts according to dispensational theology.In ChristJeff
Br. Zeke,"For the Lord God is a sun and shield; The Lord will give grace and glory; No good thing will He withhold from those who walk uprightly." Psalm 84:11This promise is available to all that believe from the beginning of time.In ChristJeff
Ron wrote:Your question is 'did Job have the light of life'? Well the scripture doesn't answer that question. It does say that he 'had' the light of life. What Elihu says is that a man 'may be enlightened with the light of light'. That is not the same as receiving the life. This is enlightenment, not life.Job stated, "And after my skin is destroyed this I know, that in my flesh I shall see God. Whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another." Job 19:26-27I believe God spoke this promise to him how else would he know?David said something similar, " The Spirit of the Lord spoke by me, and His word was on my tongue. The God of Israel said, The Rock of Israel spoke to me; He who rules over men must be just, Ruling in the fear of God. And he shall be like the light of the morning when the sun rises, a morning without clouds, like the tender grass springing out of the earth, by clear shining after rain. Although my house is not so with God, Yet He has made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things and secure. For this is all my salvation and all my desire; Will He not make it increase? 2 Samuel 23:2-5David knew his covenant was secure and that He would make it increase. When a man in the Scriptures reveals this hope it is only because God has given him the promise. In ChristJeff
Hi Rookie,You Wrote: So the crux of this whole discussion more revolves around, how does God save those who believe. So there I was thinking that I knew what you were on about, only to find that it boils down to how people got saved under the OC. And hence I find myself finally understanding what you are trying to say, it took a while, but hey, God is gracious.So the work of the Holy Spirit is central to us knowing Him. I say Job knew Him. Abraham knew Him through faith. We also enter into the promise if we are of the same faith as Abraham. That is why I say there is no difference in the work of God. All grace is dispensed by the Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit will teach us to walk the same path as our Savior. That is how anyone gets to know the Savior.I will still stick to my original line of thought.He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished.(Rom 3:25)Talking of before Jesus came, all those men sinned under the OC and where kept until that day with Abraham.(Luke 16:25) He certainly wasn't in heaven. If they were saved the NC way they would have immediately been with the Lord. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.(2 Cor 5:6-8)They were saved in the sense that God transcends time and his redemptive actions are eternal, hence the lamb that was slain since the foundation of the world. If it wasn't so he would have had to kill every human being probably within a couple of years of birth. They looked forward to the day when the messiah would come, basing there hopes upon what God would do, where as we base our hopes on what God has done.Just a side note, in hebrews we read of the blood of the eternal covenant. I read one of Derrick Princes comments on it. Speaking on the word 'eternal' It doesn't mean an endless period of time. It means something that is out of time-in a different realm of time. I understood that what happened at Calvary was in the eternal realm. It wasn't limited to a point in human history.Explains the atonement pretty well.Found this scripture:He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.(Gal 3:14)This scripture certainly adds weight to what you are saying about the Spirit working. So maybe they did have the spirit, its just odd that there is no mention of his work in the OC as there is in the NC.:-( So in essence you are right they were 'saved', I just find your reasoning challenging. If this is the case why did God institute temple worship and the laws? Off the top of my head is that the general hebrew/jewish/israeli population had no such faith in God, and needed to be reminded of their state. If anyone has been following this thread, and has any ideas, please, I am all ears.
rookie wrote:"For the Lord God is a sun and shield; The Lord will give grace and glory; No good thing will He withhold from those who walk uprightly." Psalm 84:11Is that a prophetic word or what, I'll take is such, thanks. :-D So you think that a persons heart cannot be upright apart from the Holy Spirit? I say this based upon your emphasis that nothing good dwells within me.
"There are those who rebel against the light; They do not know its ways nor abide in its paths. The murderer rises with the light: he kills the poor and needy; and in the night he is like a thief. The eye of the adulterer waits for the twilight, saying, "No eye will see me; and he disguises his face. In the dark they break into houses which they marked for themselves in the daytime; they do not know the light, For the morning is the same to them as the shadow of death; if someone recognizes them, they are in the terrors of the shadow of death."Job 24:13-17This Scripture speaks of God's light in the same way Apostle John does.This chapter begins with the question;Why are times not laid up by the Almighty? And why do not they that know him see his days? (Job 24:1 ASV) This is reference to people who 'know God' but they are ignoring His counsel. The rest of this chapter relates to these people which the chapter refers to as 'they' in most of the verses. These verses include your verses above; These are of them that rebel against the light; They know not the ways thereof, Nor abide in the paths thereof. The murderer riseth with the light; He killeth the poor and needy; And in the night he is as a thief. The eye also of the adulterer waiteth for the twilight, Saying, No eye shall see me: And he disguiseth his face. In the dark they dig through houses: They shut themselves up in the day-time; They know not the light. For the morning is to all of them as thick darkness; For they know the terrors of the thick darkness. (Job 24:13-17 ASV) It includes the phrase 'they know not the light'. The word 'know' is often used in the sense of recognize in the scripture (by their fruit ye shall know them). This verse refers to the fact that 'these' do not recognize the light. In this sense they are sinning against the light; refusing to accept the revelation. Again this may be true of the whole of our race to some degree. It is certainly what Paul was referring to when he said;And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; (Rom 1:28 ASV)The book of Job shows that all men have been 'enlightened'. Some have rejected the revelation, but even those who received that revelation are never said to have been regenerated."Upon whom does His light not rise? How then can man be righteous before God? Or how can he be pure who is born of a woman? If even the moon does not shine, and the stars are not pure in His sight, how much less man, who is a maggot, and a son of man, who is a worm? This Scripture talks about the depravity of man, just as Paul teaches.This, of course, is Bildad whom the Lord seems to include in his general condmenation of 'Job's Counsellors';Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. (Job 38:1-3 KJV) There will be truth in what Bildad says but his judgements are not to be relied upon.Do you see the hidden treasures of the book of Job? This book shatters many aspects and thoughts according to dispensational theology.I am aware that there are hidden treasures in all the scriptures. To base a whole theology on Job is somewhat precarious, when it is often difficult to know whether his counsellors were a help or the opposite.Do you believe there was an Old Covenant before there was a New Covenant? If so, technically, you are a dispensationalist, although the word is usually only used of eschatological dispensationalists. Or do you believe there was a New Covenant before there was an Old Covenant? You reasoning seems to suggest the latter which makes me wonder what 'old' or 'new' can mean if the new comes before the old. In as much as Job was before the 'old' of Sinai, any revelation he received is older than the old and certainly not in the same league as the revelation in the new.
Just a side note, in hebrews we read of the blood of the eternal covenant. I read one of Derrick Princes comments on it. Speaking on the word 'eternal' It doesn't mean an endless period of time. It means something that is out of time-in a different realm of time. I understood that what happened at Calvary was in the eternal realm. It wasn't limited to a point in human history.Hi zekeOwe are certainly singing from the same hymnsheet here! If you have a moment please read Abraham, My Friend_38
David knew his covenant was secure and that He would make it increase. When a man in the Scriptures reveals this hope it is only because God has given him the promise. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. (Heb 11:13 KJV)This was the position of Job.And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Heb 11:39-40 KJV)This is the position of Job.
I believe the Holy Spirit indwelled the OT saints as well. Sorry to jump into this discussion but I had some thoughts come up concerning this subject. In light of the following verses;For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.(Romans 8:15)And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.(Galatians 4:6)I'm wondering why it is that we never see a single case in the Old Testament of a saint calling God "Father". It's always something like "O LORD" or "O God" but never "Abba Father".In Christ,Ron
Hi RonWelcome, this is not a private discussion. :-DI think there are some places where that is implied; He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. (Psa 89:26 KJV) This refers to David, although it is Messianic and therefore not absolutely David's experience but Christ's. (Reading the rest of the Psalm will show this)But your underlying theme, I think, is true. In Galatians Paul refers to 'us' Jews as 'children' (4:3) and Gentiles as 'slaves' (4:7) but says both are now 'sons' (4:5, 4:6) as a result of receiving the 'sent forth' Spirit. It is as a result of this 'sent forth' Spirit coming 'into your (our) hearts' that 'sons' of either background now instictively call Him, Abba, Father, and, by implication, could not do so previously.
I need to respond to many things posted in the last day. Yet I will not have much time today. But here is a quick thought according to Scripture pretaining to Ron's thoughts on Father."He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, a God of truth and without injustice; righteous and upright is He. They have corrupted themselves: They are not His children, because of their blemish; a perverse and crooked generation, Do you thus deal with the Lord, O foolish and unwise people? Is He not your Father, who brought you? Has He not made you and established you?" Dueteronomy 32:4-6One of Jesus' names is ascribed to Him in Isaiah, "Mighty Father." In ChristJeff
What I was referring to was that we don't see examples of OT prayer or psalms where men are crying out to God and using the term "Father". However, I've done some further investigation into this and I have found one instance of prayer where God is referred to as Father in the Old Testament. However the Hebrew word used there does not have the deep unrestricted sense of the New Testament "Our Father".(Isaiah 63:16) Doubtless thou [art] our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, [art] our father, our redeemer; thy name [is] from everlasting.In Christ,Ron
Hi RonI found this among some of my old notes:Joh 5.17 * my Father*no-one else ever used this specific phrase# Ps 89:26# Mt 7:21 10:32-33 11:27 12:50 16:17 18:10,19 20:23 24:36 25:34# Mt 26:39,42,53# Lu 10:22 22:29 24:49# Joh 5:17 6:32,65 8:19,28,38,49,54 10:17-18,29-30,32,37 12:26# Joh 14:7,12,20-21,23,28 15:1,8,15,23-24 16:10 18:11 20:17,21# Re 2:27 3:5,21
"I will mention the lovingkindness of the Lord and the praises of the the Lord. According to all that the Lord has bestowed on us, And the great goodness toward the house of Israel. Which He has bestowed on them according to His mercies, according to the multitude of His lovingkindness, For He said, "Surely they are My people, Children who will not lie," So He became their Savior, In all their affliction He was afflicted. And the Angel of His Presence saved them; In His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them and carried them, all the days of old. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit. So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, and He fought against them. Then He remembered the days of old, Moses and his people, saying Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them, who led them by the right hand of Moses, with His glorious arm dividing the water before them to make for Himself an everlasting name....Doubtless You are our Father, though Abraham was ignorant of us, and Israel does not acknowledge us. You O Lord, are our FatherOur Redeemer from Everlasting is Your name. Isaiah 63:7-16"For the Lord's portion is His people; Jacob is the place of His inheritance." Deuteronomy 32:9"The Portion of Jacob is not like them. For He is the Maker of all things, And Israel is the tribe of His inheritance; The Lord of hosts is His name." Jeremiah 10:16Only a son can receive an inheritance. In these Scriptures we see a people who have been "set apart" by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. If Scripture states something only once, it still is the truth. To deny one Scripture means that we choose not the hear.In ChristJeff
This selection of translations shows how the KJV ought to have translated this particular verse.Isa 63:11(ASV) Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (ESV) Then he remembered the days of old, of Moses and his people. Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is he who put in the midst of them his Holy Spirit, (KJV) Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him? (NASB) Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses. Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in the midst of them, (YLT) And He remembereth the days of old, Moses--his people. Where is He who is bringing them up from the sea, The shepherd of his flock? Where is He who is putting in its midst His Holy Spirit? The Spirit is not here said to be within individuals but in the midst of God's people.
Only a son can receive an inheritance. In these Scriptures we see a people who have been "set apart" by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.A servant that dealeth wisely shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, And shall have part in the inheritance among the brethren. (Pro 17:2 ASV)In fact, Number 27 makes it plain that any member of the same tribe could receive 'the inheritance' as necessary. This included a man's daughters, his brothers, his uncles, or the most distant relative. The Proverbs quotation does not refer to 'the inheritance' but to 'an inheritance'. I man could give to anyone anything he wished, other than the land.
NKJV Isaiah 63:11, "Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people, saying; "Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them,"DRBY Isaiah 63:11, "But he remembered the days of old, Moses {and} his people; Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is he that put his holy Spirit within him,"KJVS Isaiah 63:11, "Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him? We see quite a bit of differences between the verses you and I have noted. However, one sees it, we must look to the Scriptures that surround this verse.What do we see? We see in the beginning of 63, the work of Jesus, please note, "...This One who is glorious in His apparel, Traveling in the greatness of His strength..." vs 1Look to verses 2-6, remind me of Revelation 19:11-16.Verses 7-9 speak of the saving work of the Savior. Verse 10 "But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit." Paul warns in the NT about grieving the Holy Spirit. Verses 11-14, speaks of the glory of the Lord. So I believe as before, the Holy Spirit's work, is the only means by which men are saved by God. Those who are led by the Spirit will be transformed into Christ's image.In ChristJeff
Ron wrote:What I was referring to was that we don't see examples of OT prayer or psalms where men are crying out to God and using the term "Father".Deuteronomy 32:1-43, Is refered to as the Song of Moses. As I have already pointed out, Moses sang of the Father in vs 6. And there will come another time where this song is sung again."They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying; "Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints! Revelation 15:3Jesus is the King of all the saints both NT and OT.In ChristJeff
Br. Ron wrote:And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Heb 11:39-40 KJV)Have you received this particular promise that this verse is speaking of?In ChristJeff
Have you received this particular promise that this verse is speaking of?The city whose builder and maker is God? Yes, I was born there.Yea, of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; And the Most High himself will establish her.(Psa 87:5 ASV)But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (Gal 4:26 KJV)If you have not already read it I recommend The Holy City by T Austin Sparks.
We see quite a bit of differences between the verses you and I have noted. However, one sees it, we must look to the Scriptures that surround this verse. the preposition is qereb keh’-reb: the KJV translates it asamong 76 times, midst 73 times, within 24 times, inwards 22 times, in 6 times, misc 26 times; 227 it means "midst, among, inner part, middle"As you say, we must read it in its context. I don't think any of us would deny that the Spirit was at work among the people of Israel during their wilderness march. These verses contain 2 out of 3 of the only references in the OT to the 'Holy' Spirit. The contrast is between His holiness and their rebellion. It is showing that they had no excuse for their behaviour. God delivered them by His own hand and directed them by His own Spirit in their midst, but they rebelled.The question is not the presence of the Holy Spirit but the way in which the scriptures 'locate' Him. This is not the Holy Spirit within individuals but in the midst of Israel's camp. You will recall how specifically the scripture 'locates' the Spirit as relating to Moses; And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the Spirit which is UPON thee, and will put it UPON them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.(Num 11:17 ASV)This 're-locating' of the Spirit is one of the great distinctives of the New Covenant; And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth WITH you, and shall be IN you. (Joh 14:16-17 KJV)
JeffI can't recall whether or not you answered by simple question; which came first the old covenant or the new covenant?
Br. Ron,And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Heb 11:39-40 KJV)Have you been made perfect?"So also in the resuuection of the dead, The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown in a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being," The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However the spiritual is not first, but the natural body, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the man of dust; we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man." 1 Corinthians 15:42-49"So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on the twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Matthew 19:28Both the Jew and the gentile will be made perfect at one time, at the time of the regeneration. In ChristJeff
Br Ron wrote:As you say, we must read it in its context. I don't think any of us would deny that the Spirit was at work among the people of Israel during their wilderness march. These verses contain 2 out of 3 of the only references in the OT to the 'Holy' Spirit. The contrast is between His holiness and their rebellion. It is showing that they had no excuse for their behaviour. God delivered them by His own hand and directed them by His own Spirit in their midst, but they rebelled."Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink, For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4"nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents. 1 Corinthians 10:9In these Scriptures, Paul teaches that all these whom you have mentioned ate and drank of the spiritual Rock. And that Rock was Christ. The suggestion of eating and drinking implies that the work was being done on the inside, not something that is external. But as you have said, they rebelled. Remember, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds for His mouth. In ChristJeff
Br Ron wrote:As you say, we must read it in its context. I don't think any of us would deny that the Spirit was at work among the people of Israel during their wilderness march. These verses contain 2 out of 3 of the only references in the OT to the 'Holy' Spirit. The contrast is between His holiness and their rebellion. It is showing that they had no excuse for their behaviour. God delivered them by His own hand and directed them by His own Spirit in their midst, but they rebelled."Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink, For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4"nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents. 1 Corinthians 10:9In these Scriptures, Paul teaches that all these whom you have mentioned ate and drank of the spiritual Rock. And that Rock was Christ. The suggestion of eating and drinking implies that the work was being done on the inside, not something that is external. But as you have said, they rebelled. Remember, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds for His mouth. In ChristJeff
JeffI can't recall whether or not you answered by simple question; which came first the old covenant or the new covenant?I believe the effects of the OC began back in Genesis 3:15. Man had fallen, the battle between Satan and Jesus began.Then throughout the book of Genesis, God gives us examples of the way He works in men's lives. We see the demonstation of His workmanship, and how He prepares men for good works. Abel was a prophet of God. Enoch pleased God. And we know that the carnal man cannot please God. Paul teaches this in Romans 3 and 8. So it is only because of God's grace working to shape the vessel that man made of dust can please God. Then God because He wanted to make His ways more clear made an oath with Abraham. The story of Abraham's life is an example of the work of God caring for those who believe and obey. God said to Abraham, " And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generation for an everlasting covenant to be God to you and your descendants after you." Genesis 17:7We see the promise of God aplied to Isaac, Jacob, and his sons. We also see that this promise was not given to all of Abraham's seed. It was only given to those who were born of the free woman through the promise. Those born of the flesh remained in bondage to sin. ( Galatians 4) Then we see that the infant nation of Israel is sent down to Egypt and God blesses them in the land of Goshen. Four hundred and thirty years pass, and then we hear of the works that God would do through Moses. Paul teaches that the law that was given on Mount Sinai was given to reveal to man God's spiritual laws. These laws taught men about sin. These laws could not stop men from sinning. These laws only confirmed to man that he was sinful. What does Paul teach us? "What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgression, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made..." Galatians 3:19 God gave the law through Moses, a man who served as the mediator of the OC. Paul teaches us, and this is very important to understand, the covenant that was made with Abraham was made through the Seed, "who is Christ." ( see Galatians 3:16). "And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God IN CHRIST. Galatians 3:17. You see, Paul only ever teaches that there are only two covenants. Not one, not three, but only two. Men are either condemned by the spiritual law of God or they are saved by His grace through their faith. This is the point that began this discussion. Godly obedience comes through the work of Christ by the power of His Holy Spirit. Following Christ is the only way by which men are saved from their rebellion. In ChristJeff
You see, Paul only ever teaches that there are only two covenants. Not one, not three, but only two. Men are either condemned by the spiritual law of God or they are saved by His grace through their faith. This is the point that began this discussion. Godly obedience comes through the work of Christ by the power of His Holy Spirit. Following Christ is the only way by which men are saved from their rebellion.You will know that Paul recognizes more than two covenants; Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; (Rom 9:4 KJV) 'covenants' here is in the plural and yet was the gift of God to 'Israel..according to the flesh'. So are you saying that Abraham experienced the New Covenant before the Old Covenant was established with Israel? The writer to the Hebrews refers to the First and Second covenants, and by the First clearly means Sinai. The Sinai Covenant was instituted by the shedding of blood; And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which Jehovah hath made with you concerning all these words. (Exo 24:8 ASV) The New Covenant was also instituted by the shedding of blood; Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.(Luk 22:20 KJV)Now according to Hebrews a covenant cannot come into force without the death of the covenant victim; And because of this, of a new covenant he is mediator, that, death having come, for redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, those called may receive the promise of the age-during inheritance, for where a covenant is , the death of the covenant-victim to come in is necessary, for a covenant over dead victims is stedfast, since it is no force at all when the covenant-victim liveth, whence not even the first apart from blood hath been initiated, (Heb 9:15-18 YLT)Before Sinai no one could enter into the Sinai covenant because the blood of the covenant victim had not been shed. Before Calvary no one could enter into the New Covenant because the blood of the covenant victim had not been shed.
Have you been made perfect?Yes, and I am going on to perfection too. "So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on the twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Matthew 19:28Both the Jew and the gentile will be made perfect at one time, at the time of the regeneration. I don't know about you, but I have already ... tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world(age) to come, (Heb 6:4-5 KJV)and, I'm told, that heaven is even better than this.
Br. Ron wrote:he question is not the presence of the Holy Spirit but the way in which the scriptures 'locate' Him. This is not the Holy Spirit within individuals but in the midst of Israel's camp. You will recall how specifically the scripture 'locates' the Spirit as relating to Moses; And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the Spirit which is UPON thee, and will put it UPON them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.(Num 11:17 ASV)"Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel." Exodus 19:5-6 Now we know that all men are depraved. We know that none seek God. None know His ways. We also know that the law given on Mount Sinai cannot save men. It cannot make them holy. What does God require of those who live during the time of Moses? "...if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant..." What is the result of obedience? "And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation..." Again we know that the law mediated through Moses cannot make a kingdom of priests. "Therefore Levi has no portion nor inheritance with his brethren; the Lord is his inheritance, just as the Lord your God has promised. him." Deut 10:9 What does this mean, the Lord is the priest's inheritance. In Jeremiah we find that the priests have disobeyed God. And He has spoken judgement on the unfaithful priests. Then after God destroys Israel, God gives a promise to restore Israel and bring back His people. He promises to make a new covenant with them. As part of this restoration their is a verse I want to share with you. "Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, streaming to the goodness of the Lord, for wheat and new wine and oil, for the young of the flock and the herd. Their souls shall be like well-watered garden, and they shall sorrow no more at all........I will satiate the soul of the priests with abundance and My people shall be satisfied with My goodness, says the Lord."The goodness of the Lord will fill the people, God promised to satiate (or fill) the souls of the priests. We know from the teachings of Jesus to the Samaritan woman, that all things earthly cannot satisfy her thirst. She had lusted for men. She had had five. And what does Jesus say? 'Whoever drinks of this water will thrist again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4:13-14.We know that carnal man will never be satisfied by the things he seeks for in the darkness of his condemned life. We know from Scripture that God's goodness is the only thing that fills the soul. God condemned Israel because they rebelled. "For My people have committed two evils; They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, and hewn themselves cisterns-broken cisterns that can hold no water." Jeremiah 2:13.Only through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, can effect the satisfying of our souls. In ChristJeff
Br. Ron wrote:Yes, and I am going on to perfection too. That is not what the verse states. I do not know language, but the promise of, "made perfect," seems to say something that is, not something that will become. What do you think Paul is teaching us in the Scripture that I have sited, 1 Corinthians 15:42-49?In ChristJeff
Ron BYes, and I am going on to perfection too.JeffThat is not what the verse states. I do not know language, but the promise of, "made perfect," seems to say something that is, not something that will become.(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. (Rom 4:17-18 KJV)You will see here that, by faith, Abraham 'became' what God had already 'made' him.The word 'perfect' really means to arrive at a planned destination or to finish a specific task. This is the word that Jesus used when He said "it is finished'. The emphasis is probably not on 'our personal perfection' but upon the completion of God's purposes. In that sense 'they' need 'us' for the purpose of God to be completed.The passage reads;And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, did not receive the promise, for God had provided some better thing for us, that they should not be made perfect without us.(Heb 11:39-40 MKJV) The question you need to ask is 'what is the better thing' (than the Chap 11 heroes of faith) has God provided for 'us'. and if it is the same why would God call it 'better'?JeffWhat do you think Paul is teaching us in the Scripture that I have sited, 1 Corinthians 15:42-49?Just what it says. I'm sorry I couldn't see the point you were making here unless you were saying 'there is better to come'. If that was your point I agree, but that doesn't explain the use of the word better in Heb 11 where we are plainly told that God having foreseen some better thing for us, that they should not be made perfect without us. (Heb 11:40 Darby)The writer here is plainly distinguishing between 'us' and 'them' and saying quite specifically that God had forseen/provided some 'better' thing for 'us'.
Br. Ron wrote:(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. (Rom 4:17-18 KJV)You will see here that, by faith, Abraham 'became' what God had already 'made' him.I don't understand, you claim perfection according to this verse, a verse that speaks of the covenant that God made with Abraham. Yet you argue that Abraham was not part of the New Covenant. And on top of that, look at the verse we are contending over. "God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.". This Scripture states that they could not be made perfect apart from us." To me this says that they had to wait and we have to wait, till a time where both will be made perfect. Scripture does say that they, the OT saints will be made perfect along with us. Now we know that the law could not make the OT saints perfect. "For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did, by which we draw nigh unto God." "And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrews 9:15.Christ is Mediator of the New Covenant. This Scripture says that His death covers the sins committed under the first covenant. What generations in history does this verse refer too? Look specifically at "for the transgressions under the first covenant." To whom does this apply?Of course the New Covenant is better. Man under the condemnation of the first, cannot lift himself out of condemnation because there is nothing good in man. All men are corrupt, the body is sown in corruption. Jesus had to die to be perfected. "who, in the days of His flesh when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him," Hebrews 5:7-9Only those who obey Him receive eternal salvation. So going back to Hebrews 11:40, The OT saints are made perfect. We know that obeying the law could not make them perfect. We also know that only by obeying Him does one receive eternal life. Again, I believe the perfection that verse 40 speaks of will come when we are resurrected. Then we will have perfect knowledge, and we will see Him as He is. Remember Jesus said to Nicodemus,"No one has ascended to heaven, but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.' John 3:13,"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." Hebrews 12:13.Where is Abraham's bosom? In ChristJeff
JeffI don't understand, you claim perfection according to this verse, a verse that speaks of the covenant that God made with Abraham. Yet you argue that Abraham was not part of the New Covenant. And on top of that, look at the verse we are contending over.We are still talking past one another. Of course Christ's death covered the transgression under the first covenant. Whoever said it didn't. It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to deal with sin; the only reason that Adam was annihilated on the spot was because of Christ's sacrifice. whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; (Rom 3:25 NASB) This includes all sins from all time, but benefits only those spoken of in the previous verse being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; (Rom 3:24 NASB) Abraham was justified by faith because of Christ's sacrifice, so was Abel, Enoch, Noah, etc.,The OT saints are 'now' made perfect. Of that I have no doubt. They viewed eternal life as a future promise. The New Covenant sees eternal life as a present possession.The question I thought we were discussing was whether or not Abraham received eternal life during the time of his earthly pilgrimage. The truths of justification and regeneration, although linked, must be distinguished one from the other. The first is a judicial function and guarantees access, forgiveness and many other blessings, the second changes a man's constitution now.Of course the New Covenant is better. Man under the condemnation of the first, cannot lift himself out of condemnation because there is nothing good in man.How is it better?All men are corrupt, the body is sown in corruption. Jesus had to die to be perfected. What are you saying here? Where have you read that Jesus died in order to be perfected? Are you saying that in his flesh He was corrupt? Be careful where you tread here; this begins to sound like blasphemy. He learned obedience by the things that He suffered. Learning is a process which he underwent as the Son of Man and in that sense He who was the perfect Man became the perfect Man; perfection is 'from glory to glory' not from corruption to glory. Jesus did not have to die to be perfected because 'the body is sown in corruption' but because it was His ultimate obedience to the will of God. He did not come in 'sinful flesh' but in the 'likeness' of sinful flesh; this is a vital distinction; For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (Rom 8:3 KJV)"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." Hebrews 12:13.But I have received the promise. This was His promise...And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. (Act 1:4 KJV) You will see that this postdates John 20:22. And this was the fulfillment Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. (Act 2:33 KJV) By God's grace, I have received The Promise.In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Heb 8:13 KJV) According to the writer to Hebrews God's promising of the New Covenant is what made the 'first covenant' old. But you are telling me that the New Covenant predated the Old Covenant. What kind of sense can that make? "I will make a new covenant" (Jer 31:31) is a statement of future intent, just as "I will build my church" is a statement of future intent. But at the time of Jeremiah's prophecy the Sinaitic/first/old covenant was in operation. If you are standing in one covenant and being promised a future 'new' covenant, how can the new possibly predate the 'old'? 'first' and 'second' can only speak of sequence, and not co-eixitence as it is written 'he taketh away the first that He may estblish the second'. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. (Heb 10:9 KJV) that in this verse is the Greek word hina; it means 'in order that'. He had to take away the first 'in order that' he might establish the second. This is a categoric statement that the Old and the New cannot coexist. But according to your theory the New Covenant predated the Old Covenant, then coexisted with the Old Covenant (in the lives of David etc) and finally survives the Old Covenant. This is contrary to scripture and common sense. If it were necessary to remove the Old Covenant in order to establish the New your scenario cannot work.There is no doubt that an Abrahamic Covenant coexisted with the Old Covenant; And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. (Rom 4:12 KJV) This is co-existence. But to have to remove the one before establishing the next cannot possible mean co-existence. The Abrahamic Covenant is not synonymous with the New Covenant.Where is Abraham's bosom?Underneath Abraham's chin? ;-)
Br. Ron wrote:The OT saints are 'now' made perfect. Of that I have no doubt. They viewed eternal life as a future promise. The New Covenant sees eternal life as a present possession.I submit these verses to ask this question, Did the OT saints have the New Covenant promise?"Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keepMy covenant then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation..." Exodus 19:5-6 Now we know that the law cannot make them holy. The law was given to teach man what sin is. "And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to keep the commandments of the Lord and His statues which I command you today for your good?" Deuteronomy 10:12-13How can a man who has not been washed by the Holy Spirit obey this command? Remember the effects of the doctrine of total depravity. Listen to Paul teach, "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be." Romans 8:5-7. Please understand this, "...the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law. This teaching of Paul applies to all men. Those who lived under the Covenant of Mount Sinai could not love God based on their observance of that law. Remember, "the carnal mind is enmity against God." And the law of God condemns man.So then how can man who is commanded by God to love Him with their whole heart, mind, soul , and strength obey God without God circumcising His heart?This particular verse speaks of the work that God would do in those that He brought back from the 70 year captivity in Babylon. "And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to the love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." Deuteronomy 30:6.Now this verse speaks to the rebellion of those who died in the wilderness. "For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey. So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief." Hebrews 3:16-19 Now first we see that they had the opportunity to enter into His rest, but because of unbelief He swore that they would not be allowed to enter into His rest. Now if they could enter into His rest, what is it that would allow them to enter into this rest? Listen to the warning that follows this Scripture. "Therefore, since the promise remains of entering into His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it." Hebrews 4:1 Now we see that the promise still remains here in the NT. The brethren are warned that unbelief will also cause them to fall short of this promise. So hear again we see that obedience is required. But obedience to what? If one is carnally minded one is still an enemy of God. Only those who obey through the Spirit are subject to the law of God. Paul teaches, "...if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Romans 8:13Sounds alot like "And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to the love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." Deuteronomy 30:6.In ChristJeff
Ron wrote:"What are you saying here? Where have you read that Jesus died in order to be perfected? Are you saying that in his flesh He was corrupt? Be careful where you tread here; this begins to sound like blasphemy."In all humbleness, you continue to ascribe words like "dangerous" and "blasphemy" to me. Yet I am attempting to give all the glory both in the NT and the OT to Christ.To answer your question, concerning what I believe about the nature of Christ. I believe He was, is, and will ever be God. I used this Scripture to point to the fact Christ is the author of eternal salvation. No one had ascended to heaven except Him who had descended. That means that all those who preceded Christ had not ascended to heaven because Christ had not perfected eternal salvation until He died for the all the sins committed under the first covenant. Paul teaches that, "Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected, but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me....I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." Philippians 3:12-14Now how does your view of "made perfect" align with Paul's view of the prize for which he strives?In ChristJeff
Br. Ron wrote:But you are telling me that the New Covenant predated the Old Covenant. What kind of sense can that make?I believe the affects of the first covenant began in Genesis 3:15. Listen to the first covenant."And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel." Here God determines that carnal man will be the seed of Satan. Here God determines that hatred will exist between the seed of the woman and the seed of Satan. This hatred spoken of by Jesus at great lengths in the gospels, began at that moment in time. This hatred could only exist between the two seeds because of God's oath. Satan could only hate those who God called from that point forward. Those who remained under Satan are not subject to the law of God, nor can be. Thus the law of God was brought to bear on all men since Adam. The law given to Moses on Mount Sinai is just a greater revelation of what God had already established back in the garden of Eden. Unless one becomes the seed of the woman one cannot escape the judgement that took place that day. In ChristJeff
Br. Ron wrote:There is no doubt that an Abrahamic Covenant coexisted with the Old Covenant; And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. (Rom 4:12 KJV) This is co-existence. But to have to remove the one before establishing the next cannot possible mean co-existence. The Abrahamic Covenant is not synonymous with the New Covenant.What does it mean when Paul teaches, "...that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect." Galatians 3:17 Please notice that this promise confirmed by God IN CHRIST had effect..In Christ Jeff
What does it mean when Paul teaches, "...that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect." Galatians 3:17It simply means that the law didn't disannul the promise that all nations would be blessed by Abraham's seed, Jesus Christ. The law did not introduce a new way of obtaining the blessing. The original promise of blessing remained and was later fulfilled in Christ and continues to be fulfilled in His Body.In Christ,Ron
Br. InTheLight Ron wrote:The original promise of blessing remained and was later fulfilled in Christ and continues to be fulfilled in His Body.Did the promise made to Abraham and his descendants, Isaac, Jacob, etc have an "effect" on them as individuals?In ChristJeff
Did the promise made to Abraham and his descendants, Isaac, Jacob, etc have an "effect" on them as individuals?As Paul explains in verse 16 the promise was to Abraham and his "seed", which is Christ, singular, not plural. (Galatians 3:16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.In Christ,Ron
Br. Ron,A little further on Paul teaches in Galatians 4:28, "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. " When God made a covenant with Abraham He said,"And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generation, for an everlasting covenantto be God to you and your descendants after you. Genesis 17:7What does it mean when God says, I will be God to you and your descendants in their generation? What does it mean when He says He will do this? Through whom is this everlasting covenant established?In ChristJeff
In terms of the prophesy of Joel being quoted at Penetcost. "And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy and your young men shall see visions and your old men shall dream dreams..." Acts 2:17Look to some of the manifestation of the work of the Spirit. Prophesying, visions, and dreams are mentioned. Did not the OT saints have the same experiences?In ChristJeff
What does it mean when Paul teaches, "...that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect." Galatians 3:17Please notice that this promise confirmed by God IN CHRIST had effect..I thought you might be interested in this translation of your verse; and this I say, A covenant confirmed before by God to Christ, the law, that came four hundred and thirty years after, doth not set aside, to make void the promise,(Gal 3:17 YLT)the KJV's 'in Christ' is 'eis christou'. 'eis' cannot be translated 'by'. In this context it means' 'to or towards Christ'. This promise was 'confirmed .. to Christ'. Abraham was the sleeping witness not an active participant. see Abraham, My Friend.
Br. Ron asked this question pretaining to the New Covenant:How is it better?This is what Paul says in 2 Corinthian 3:5-6, "Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God. who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.So here Paul teaches that the law kill. That only by the Spirit will one find life. You see the law is written to teach men what sin is. Man cannot without God's grace overcome his flesh. He cannot please God. That is what Paul teaches in Romans 7. In the above verse Paul clearly teaches that our sufficiency is in God. I would like to give an example of how God works in those to make them sufficient in Him. I will base the following Scriptures Hebrews 8:10-12 as the working definition of the New Covenant.Jesus taught, "Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed in Him, If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free...Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free you shall be free indeed." John 8:31-36Here Jesus defines what is required of those who desire to be His disciples. He states that one must abide in His word. What does this mean? It means that we must obey His commands. He then states that a disciple who continues to commit sin is a slave, is in bondage to the law. Paul teaches this in Romans 8:12-17. You see the believer is given a choice. He can continue following his sinful flesh or he can choose to follow the Spirit. Going back to Paul's teaching to the Corinthians, He says that we are not sufficient within ourselves. It is only God who can overcome our bondage to the flesh. Jesus said, that if you abide in My words, I will set you free. Only those who continue to be His disciples will live in the house forever. Those who remain in bondage, because they choose not to obey His words, do not live in the house forever. Now let us go to Job for a clearer explaination of what Paul and Jesus are teaching. "He does not preserve the life of the wicked, but gives justice to the oppressed. He does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous; But they are on the throne with kings, for He has seated them forever, and they are exalted. And if they are bound in fetters, held in cords of affliction,Then He tells them their work and their transgressions- that they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, and commands that they turn from iniquity.If they obey and serve Him, the shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasure. But if they do not obey, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge. But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath; they do not cry for help whe He binds them. They die in their youth, and their life ends among the perverted persons. Job 36:6-14Here what Job says. God tell them of their trasgressions and commands that they turn. God opens their ears to instruction. Is this speaking of the letter that kills? Or is this a precept of the New Covenant? You see only by God opening our ears to instruction, only by God convicting us of our sins, do we know Him. This is the New Covenant. Again read Hebrews 8 and look to what Christ has to offer as our High Priest.Do you see how God becomes our sufficiency? Do you see the work of the Holy Spirit?In ChristJeff
This is the promise given in Deuteronomy, "And the Lord your God will circumsise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." Deut. 30:6"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendant may live; that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, that you may cling to Him, for He is your life, and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them." vs 19-20"Then Jesus spoke to them again saying, I am the light of the world, he who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life." John 8:12The only way we can be sufficient is to abide in His word because He is the light of the world. There is no difference in the promise. God through Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit teaches us to follow Him. We are predestined to be conformed into His image. He is our salvation.In ChristJeff
Here is part of the New Covenant spoken of in Hebrews 8:10, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."When God spoke to Job, one of the things that He said to Job, "Who has put wisdom in the mind, or who has given understand to the heart? Job 38:36. Here we see the essences of the New Covenant spoken to Job. Is not God the one who did this for Job? In ChristJeff
Are you beginning to understand why the New Covenant is better then the letter that kills?I will continue in Psalm 119. There I will highlight the precepts of the New Covenant. Read ahead and find the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Find the sufficiency that comes from God.In ChristJeff
Now let us go to Job for a clearer explaination of what Paul and Jesus are teaching. As far as I am concerned this conversation just ended. There is no point in persuing it. Our bases of truth are completely different. We can only talk past each other; there is no point of contact.I have tried to understand how the Covenant that was made 'old' by the declaration of the 'new' could actually be later than the 'new' which made it old. I have tried to understand how the first could come later than the second, co-exist with the second when it arrived even though the second wss in place before the first. But your persistence in regarding the Old Testament as the definitive explanation of the New is, to me completely unacceptable. It flies in the face of all evangelical expression, and can only result in the New Testament becoming an extension of the Old.For myself, there is no point in furthering this discussion.
Br. Ron wrote:I have tried to understand how the Covenant that was made 'old' by the declaration of the 'new' could actually be later than the 'new' which made it old. I have tried to understand how the first could come later than the second, co-exist with the second when it arrived even though the second wss in place before the first. But your persistence in regarding the Old Testament as the definitive explanation of the New is, to me completely unacceptable. It flies in the face of all evangelical expression, and can only result in the New Testament becoming an extension of the Old.The teachings of dispensational theology has caused many to miss the voice of God in the OT. The law comes first as the article that began this thread has stated. The promise to be God to those who obey His voice is the New Covenant. It is new because men living under the first covenant are dead until God calls, seperates, and glorifies those who would believe. Just listen to Psalm 119. Do not be frustrated Brother Ron. Just believe the word of God. Listen to the heart of the writer of Psalm 119. You will find all the promises of the New Covenant manifested in this Psalm. In ChristJeff
Picking up where we were before, Jeff said:Br. Sam,Understanding comes from the path on which one traveles. I can not explain to you my understanding unless I show you the path that I have traveled. It is important that you understand the significance of the branches.If you will not research it on your own by reading the Scriptures I will be of no help to you. If you need another man's support:One more thought. A.W. Tozer believed and taught that the OT saints were born from above. But you see, part of the New Covenant promise states, "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying,"Know the Lord, for all shall know Me..." Hebrews 8:11The context of our discussion was whether Zechariah 3 and 4 has any direct bearing at all to the doctrine of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. (My answer is negative, but Jeff has yet to show why it would be relevant, except making yet another obscure reference to the "branches").Jeff, there is a great possibility that I have failed to grasp your theory of the "branches" not because I refuse to "research it on my own by reading the scriptures," but for the simple reason that you are wrong.The grave danger that you are in is that of injecting your own subjective inferences into the Word of God. While there is an experiential side to faith, the Christian faith is based on the written word of God. The mystical and esoteric knowledge of Scripture that you are claiming is more in line with Gnosticism than authentic Christian faith!As for A. W. Tozer, he did not cite Zechariah 3 and 4, and inject his own meaning into it. Your way of explaining an obscure concept with an obscure passage is definitely not that of Tozer's.Sam
Br. Sam,I refered to Tozer teaching that the OT saints were born again. I heard it in one of the sermons on this site. I am sorry if I led you to believe that he taught about Zech 3 the same as I am teaching. You wrote:The context of our discussion was whether Zechariah 3 and 4 has any direct bearing at all to the doctrine of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. (My answer is negative, but Jeff has yet to show why it would be relevant, except making yet another obscure reference to the "branches").The idea of the branch refers the works of God on man in particular generations. Remember the covenant made to Abraham, that God would be God to him and to his descendants after him in their generation. So in my understanding God has raised up faithful generations of men and women that belong to the root, the green olive tree, the vine. Jesus taught about this. Paul taught about this. So we can either search the Sciptures for illumination or we can just ignore all that the OT teaches on this particular subject. Also remember, that many of the books of the OT talk about the same time and generation of people. So it may seem that I am all over the OT to prove a point, yet this is the essence of the treasure hunt. I will spend all my time in Jeremiah today for the sake of clarity. This is God's promise to those who are brought back from captivity. Ezra and Nehemiah cover this time frame. "Behold, I will gather them out of all countries where I have driven them in My anger, in My fury, and in great wrath." Jeremiah 32:37.Remember the people in Jerusalem who disobeyed the Lord, they ended up eating their children to survive the seige of the Babylonian. Remember, the king and his sons who were executed and blinded before Nebuchadnezzar. This the the great wrath mention in the preceding verse."I will bring them back to this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely. They shall be My people, and I will be their God: then I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me forever, for the good of them and their children after them." Jeremiah 32:38-39Here God says that He will give them one heart and one way. Also notice that they will fear the Lord forever. What does it mean to be given one heart? Who is the only one whose heart our heart must be at one with? Please meditate with all sincerity according to Scripture."And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me. Yes, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will assuredly plant them in this land, with all My heart and with all My soul." Jeremiah 32:40-41Is there any doubt that God will not do this according to Scripture. Remember, the everlasting covenant is given to a generation of believers. This is a promise of God to those of the captivity. Now please remember, God said that He would give them one heart and one way. "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgement and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is name by which He will be called; "THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.Therefore, behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, "that they shall no longer say, "As the Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt, but "As the Lord lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I have driven them,; And they shall dwell in their own land." Jeremiah 23:5-8First notice the name, and the words, HE WILL BE CALLED. There is a significance to this that will shortly be explained.Now please notice that this promise is given to those of Ezra's and Nehemiah's time. Please notice significance of the NAME. Please notice that He is the King. Is not Jesus our righteousness? What Scriptures come to your mind?"In those days and at that time I will cause to grow up to David A Branch of righteousness; He shall execute judgement and righteousness in the earth. In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell safely. And this is the name by which she will be called. THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS, For thus says the Lord; David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; nor shall the priests, the Levites lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.' Jeremiah 33:15-18 First, please notice the words, "the name by which she will be called.. Remember this similar verse where the same name is given and says He will be called? Now, it is she will be called. Both are called by the same name, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Also now remember, the first verse where God promises to give them one heart and one way. Now meditate on NT Scriptures. What does Jesus says in John about being one with Him and the Father? Please notice again, He shall be called and she shall be called. Does this not portray Christ and His bride? Now can you see why the Branch is holy? Again look to the teachings of Jesus and Paul. Can a branch be holy without the Holy Spirit? Can a branch be holy without Jesus Christ? So if God did the work that He promised in the people who returned from captivity, would He not have had to pour out His Spirit on that generation? You know many teach that the prophesy of Joel applied to Pentecost and will again apply in the future. Why do many say this prophesy of Joel could not apply to the captivity's return from Babylon? What traditions of man are we trying to uphold?In ChristJeff
Jeff, I am struggleing with your opinions!I have tried to grasp your views but i must honestly say that you mix up OT prophesy for the people then with promises for the people of God now.For example your quote below."And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me. Yes, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will assuredly plant them in this land, with all My heart and with all My soul." Jeremiah 32:40-41You seem to refrain from answering clearly valid points that refute your stance.I really am trying to understand your point :-) Tell me are your views shared by others? Your church or friends or can you give us any reference material that we could read from.Please point out some clear scholarly resourse to back up your claims :-)
Br Delboy wrote:Jeff, I am struggleing with your opinions!I have tried to grasp your views but i must honestly say that you mix up OT prophesy for the people then with promises for the people of God now.For example your quote below.Quote:"And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me. Yes, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will assuredly plant them in this land, with all My heart and with all My soul." Jeremiah 32:40-41Could you please clarify your question. By placing the Scripture of Jeremiah 32:40-41 in quote are you saying that this Scripture does not apply to those God brought back from captivity spoken of in the books of Nehemiah and Ezra? Or are you saying that the quoted Scripture only pretains to the captivity in the books of Nehemiah and Ezra? I have no one that I have met that has shared what I have shared. Likewise, I have read very little in the teachings of other men. The Scripture is really all that anyone needs. The promise of the New Covenant is realized not by reading other men but waiting on Him to teach me. Hear the New Covenant: "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, say "Know the Lord, for all shall know Me, for the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and theirs lawless deeds I will remember no more." Hebrews 8:10-12If you don't have faith in Him to place His words in your heart, you are missing the promise that has been given to all who seek Him diligently. The thoughts I share have come by diligently reading the Scripture and waiting on Him to reveal His will to me. That is the New Covenant life. In ChristJeff
I am trying to explain the understanding that I have come to. Yet there are many steps which God placed before me in order that He ordained. One of the first came 5 years ago. My pastor then said to me I believe every word in Scripture. If it says so then I believe. At that time I was struggling with the notion of total depravity explained in Romans 3. That night I accepted total depravity as a doctrine. Yet I continue to learn the depts of that doctrine today. Many Christians do not really embrace this doctrine. For if they did they would know that the OT peoples are the same as us. Totally depraved in our flesh. Another insight was the idea of when God promises to be God to us. What does that mean? I struggled with the notion of everlasting covenant spoken of in the OT. Now I have come the understand that God truly does perform and give His everlasting covenant to each generation in their time.. So when God promise Abraham, He also gave the promise to his descendants in each generation, that He would be their God. And this all comes by faith. Faith is the only thing that seperates us from total depravity. Obedience to His voice, gives us His righteousness. His life is revealed to us. This life really does become ours. We become one. Got to go,In ChristJeff
"And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me. Yes, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will assuredly plant them in this land, with all My heart and with all My soul." Jeremiah 32:40-41This was both a prophetic message and a New Covenant Promise. Read David Wilkersons book entitled "The New Covenant Unveiled". It's an awesome book!God Bless,The Evangelist
Another insight was the idea of when God promises to be God to us. What does that mean? I struggled with the notion of everlasting covenant spoken of in the OT. Now I have come the understand that God truly does perform and give His everlasting covenant to each generation in their time.. So when God promise Abraham, He also gave the promise to his descendants in each generation, that He would be their God. And this all comes by faith... Jeff,This happens so rarely that I thought I ought to mark the event... I agree wholeheartedly with the above statement... which probably means I have misunderstood it. :-D
The things I write of, place me in a lonely place. Today is a blessed day not because of contention or competition, but because of the Holy Spirit is at work. Do not accept my words as truth, do not say Jeff is right. Rather, read the Scriptures and He will show you what He wants you to know. About 6 years ago I prayed for Him to show me how He saves me. At first I was overwhelmed with the cross and all I thought I knew from Scripture. I remember feeling this burden of dieing to the world. Well His burden is light. Light in the sense, that as He reveals Himself through the Scriptures, He is changing the desires of my heart one day at a time. Many days I stumble but He is faithful. If there is one things that I could encourage everyone in it is this. "...For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48This precept is real. As it becomes real, more of the world is sacrificed on the cross. Embrace His word and you will embrace His cross.In ChristJeff
Just an additional note to my previous two or three posts. I struggled with the doctrine of total depravity for my first three years as a Christian. Every time I came upon a verse which spoke to man's total depravity my flesh would strive against this notion. There was a real struggle going on inside of me. I now look back and see that the Holy Spirit and my spirit were in opposition to one another. Then when I gave into the words my pastor spoke,"Believe the Scriptures totally," that night the burden disappeared. There was a freedom that I experienced. But that was only the half of it. Once I believed in man's total depravity, it seemed like it became a key in which many other Scriptures opened up in front of me. The door had opened. And it has never been the same since. It only increases. That is what salvation is all about. It increases. Likewise there have been other keys of understanding that I have been given that allow me to see more of His truth. I struggled with the idea of the Gospel was preached to the OT saints. I struggled with what is faith. I struggled with everlasting covenant. I struggled with dieing to self. I struggled with the notion of righteousness, where did it really come from? I listened to men but found a better covenant. I am not advocating that everyone should reject all of men's thoughts. There were times in the past where authors like Tozer, Murray, F.B. Meyers and Sanders have been a blessing to me. The blessing was not that they gave me understanding. The blessing came in the notion that I was not alone. The struggles I speak of are those that God has placed in me. I have found that when I find peace it is only because God has given me the peace through understanding what He is teaching me. These struggles as I have mentioned can last for years. That is why we are called to be still and know that He is our Lord. That was the whole reason for the Sabath. We must read the Scriptures, we must feed on every word that comes from His mouth.In ChristJeff
To answer the ongoing question, "How is the New Covenant better than the Old Covenant?One of the provisions of God found in the NC is written of in Hebrews 8:12-13, "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more. In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." Here we find that God is merciful to the sinful ways of men. Here we find that the New Covenant makes the Old Covenant obsolete. Well how really does the NC make the OC obsolete? First Paul teaches that, "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20Here we see that the results of the law revealed to man condemns man. Now the promise of God in the NC says that He will have mercy, He will not remember the unrighteousness, the lawless deeds, and the sins of man who recieve His promise. So we see now how the NC makes the OC obsolete in one way. That is, that God chooses to remove the condemnation of the first by His promise to forgive under the NC. Listen to the writer of Psalm 119."Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord! Blessed are those who keep His testimonies, who seek Him with the whole heart! They also do no iniquity: they walk in His ways," Psalm 119:1-3First we must remember what Paul taught about the depravity of man. No one seeks God, no one knows God. See Romans 3 for clarity in this matter. Secondly, all are condemned who try to follow the law. Listen to Paul teach, "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." Romans 3:19 And finally we know from Paul's teaching that no one can keep the whole law and if one breaks one of the laws one is guitly of breaking the whole law. So the question one must ask, how then are those who the writer of Psalm 119 writes of, "undefiled in the way."?He writes that they, "walk in the law of the Lord!"?He writes, "Blessed are those who keep His testimonies, who seek Him with the whole heart!" These people walk in the law of the Lord and yet they are blameless. Again remember that the law given on Mount Sinai condemns. Remember that none can keep the whole law. Yet we find that there are those who are blameless. In just the first few verses we find that these people have recieved a component of the New Covenant. Out of time,In ChristJeff
Again, how is the New Covenant better?"You have commanded us to keep Your precepts diligently. Oh, that my ways were directed to keep Your statues! Then I would not be ashamed, when I look into all Your commandments." Psalm 119:4-6 Listen to his words. What do they reveal about the understanding and the struggle of this individual. He understands that he cannot keep his Lord's commandments without his Lord's help. He is ashamed of his ways that do not meet the righteousness of the Lord's precepts. Where do we hear of this struggle in the NT?"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do...I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Romans 7:14-24Do not the hearts of these two men cry out as one. It is only by the divine power of God that these men's hearts struggle against their sinful ways. Remember again the doctrine of total depravity. Man can only know his position before our holy and righteous Savior by God revealing this truth to him. God has revealed this truth to both men:"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find." The solution to this dilema is addressed by both men. Listen to the words of these men."I will praise You with uprightness of heart, when I learn Your righteous judgements, I will keep Your statues; Oh, do not forsake me utterly! How can a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed according to Your word. ...Your word I have hidden in my heart, that I might not sin against You. Blessed are You, O Lord! Teach me Your statues. Psalm 119:7-12 "I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 7:25-8:1.Both these men know that in them they do not know how to please God. Both men seek the Lord for His instruction. Listen to Isaiah speak about the Lord's work. "But there the majestic Lord will be for us a place of broad rivers and streams, in which no galley with oars will sail, nor majestic ships pass by (For the Lord is our Judge, The Lord is our Lawgiver, The Lord is our King: He will save us). Isaiah 33:21-22.Please notice the nature of the rivers and streams spoken of here in Isaiah. No ships will manuever in these waters. These waters are those spoken of in Jeremiah 2:13, "For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, and hewn themselves cisterns- broken cisterns that can hold no water." Again see the nature of man who has forsaken the Lord. The Lord tells us that they can only make broken cisterns which can hold no water. You see the New Covenant will make the Old Covenant obsolete as we experience God teaching us how to obey, how to perform and walk in His path. Both the writer of Psalm 119 and Paul teach us that the letter kills, but it is God who imparts understand that brings life. We learn by being by the still waters which restore our souls. We learn that He will lead us in the paths of righteousness for His name sake.In ChristJeff
Again, how is the NC better?"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Hebrews 8:10Now this part of the promise which is part of the New Covenant, deals with God promising to do something. Remember, that man without God's grace cannot establish his mind or heart to conform to God's ways. Paul teaches us:"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be." Romans 8:7 (As a side note, this particular topic applies to Brs Ron and Roberts discussion on the nature of the old man.)You see man without God is lost. He cannot do the things of God because God has not called the old man. The old man will never know how to please God. As Paul teaches the carnal mind will never be subject to the law of God. So the promise of the NC is that God will give instructions to man to enable man to obey and learn of His righteousness. The word of God, by the will of God, gives man revelations of God. It is God who wills to reveal Himself to man through His word that enables man to recognize the grace that calls him upward. Listen to the writer's heart of Psalm 119:9-16.'How can a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed according to Your word. With my whole heart I have sought You; Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments! Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You. Blessed are You, O Lord! Teach me Your statues. With my lips I have declared all the judgements of Your mouth. I have rejoiced in the way of Your testimonies, as much as in all riches. I will meditate on Your precepts, and contemplate Your ways. I will delight myself in Your statues; I will not forget Your word."Here we see both the mind and the heart of this individual in love with God's word. We see a desire and love that can not be manifested by the carnal mind. Listen to the interaction between the Lord and this man. The Lord has spoken judgements and has testified personally to this man. Do you begin to see the elements which cause the word of God to be placed in his mind and in his heart? Who is doing the work? In ChristJeff
How is the New Covenant better?"...Oh, let ne not wander from Your commandment!" Psalm 119:10.The writer of this statement knows that he doesn't have the ability to walk the narrow path. His prayer is that His Savior would continue to instruct him in the ways he must go. What is the reason for his supplication?"...that I might not sin against You." Psalm 119:11 God in various places has stated that sin and burnt offerings he did not desire. His desire was that His people would not continue to sin. The writer of this statement reflects the will of His God. "...Teach me Your statutes." Psalm 119:12 Does not the writer know the law given on Mount Sinai? Or does this individual recognize that in his carnal mind he is unable to satisfy God's law?"With my lips I have declared all the judgements of Your mouth." Psalm 119:13The Lord has given this individual judgements according to the actions of his life. Remember, this individuals heart's desire is not to sin against his Lord. This individual's prayers are answered when the Lord reveals His judgements to this individual. Later on we will see that these judgements are not pleasant at the time, but having obeyed, this individual's heart is to desire more of these judgements. Also notice that this individual says that with his lips he has declared the Lord's judgements on him. Does this sound like confessing one's sin? "I have rejoiced in the way of Your testimonies, as much as in all riches." Psalm 119:14Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all other things will be given unto you. The testimonies that come because of the Lords work become more desirous than anything this world has to offer. Do you see how the NC makes the OC obsolete? The letter kills but the Spirit brings life.In ChristJeff
How is the New Covenant better?Paul teaches that his own nation rejected the New Covenant offer. "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge." Romans 10:1-2Here Paul teaches that Israel during his time were zealous in works. Yet they are missing a crucial point. They lack knowledge. What knowledge is he refering too?"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God." vs 3So the knowledge they are lacking refers to God's righteousness. Paul says that they stumbled because they tried to follow the law on Mount Sinai. And we know that only knowledge of sin is the fruit of that covenant. So we see that they have not submitted to God's righteousness. "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Romans 10:4 So here we see that Christ is the righteousness that they have not submitted too. So it is Christ that defines or reveals the righteousness that God says is required to have accurate knowledge. Let us go to an incident in the gospels. Jesus had many encounters with the religious leaders of that day. In John chapter 9, Jesus heals a blind man. The blind man testifies of the works of Jesus. The religious leaders condemned Jesus for healing that man on the Sabath. We all know that the laws that condemned Jesus was not of the 5 books of Moses. By the traditions of men, the Talmud, was Jesus condemned. Jesus gives us the reason that He came into the world. "And Jesus said, "For judgement I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind." John 9:39Jesus is pointing to the nature of God and the nature of man. Those who say the see, are those who have sought to become righteous through the practice of the law. Again we know that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God. Jesus says that He has come so that those who know they are blind will see. "Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, "Are we blind also?" Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, "We see." Therefore your sin remains." John 9:41 So here we hear of the righteousness that the Pharisees know nothing of. Now let us see what the writer of Psalm 119 has to say about seeing."Deal bountifully with Your servant, that I may live and keep Your word. Open my eyes, that I may see wonderous things from Your law. I am a stranger in the earth; Do not hide Your commandments from me. My soul breaks with longing for Your judgements at all times. You rebuke the proud-the cursed, who stray from Your commandments." Psalm 119:17-21This man knows that he is lacking in all things. This man knows that only God can open his eyes to the wonderous things of God. This man also states that there are those who are proud and that they stray from His commandments. Now we know that the carnal mind has no capacity to know God. Yet this man knows that God has given him revelations that are not obvious to the carnal mind. The things of God are hidden and only through the illumination of the Holy Spirit can man know the things the writer of Psalm 119 speaks of. To know God, means that God reveals Himself to those He calls. This man was called, and he is the heir of the promises of the New Covenant.In ChristJeff
How is the New Covenant better?"Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scriptures says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"? James 4:4-5"...For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:"I will dwell in them and walk among them. I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Come out from among them and be seperate, says the Lord, do not touch what is unclean and I will receive you." I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the Lord Almighty." 2 Corinthians 6:14-18Here both James and Paul speak warnings to the believers of all times. Please notice that both these sections of Scripture relate back to the OT. Please meditate on what these Scriptures actually say. Does the Spirit in you cause you to question where your understanding of truth comes from. Is it from the traditions and teachings of men that you desire to reject what James and Paul are saying?Further more, look to what is required of those in whom the Spirit dwells. God's promise to us will seperate us from the desires of the old man. Listen to the heart of the writer of Psalm 119.vs 19. "I am a stranger in the earth; do not hide Your commandments from me." vs 51. "The proud have me in great derision, yet I do not turn aside from Your law." vs 53. "Indignation has taken hold of me because of the wicked who forsake Your law."vs 54. "Your statutes have been my songs in the house of my pilgrimage."Do you notice that there are two types of people spoken of here? First the writer, we hear that he sees his life and lives his life as a stranger to this earth. He views his life as a pilgrimage. Meditate on this thought. Abraham viewed life in the same way. And why? Because the Holy Spirit sets the faithful apart from the bondage of this world. All the desires of the things of this world brings futility into the life of those who seek shelter in the world. Yet Jesus says that if we drink of the water He has we will never thirst again. Now look at the other group of people portrayed in Psalm 119. They are also Jews. Yet this group does not obey God. They are judged proud. They are judged wicked. And there is emnity between the faithful and the proud. Remember this was promised in Genesis 3:15. Pride is the original sin. Lucifer chose his own path outside of the will of God. Do we not see this same path chosen by Adam and Eve? It is only the work of the Holy Spirit which can teach man the ways of Jesus Christ. That is the ancient path. Jesus is Lord of the Sabath.In ChristJeff
How is the new covenant better?"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted." Matthew 5:3-4Jesus taught that His disciples lives would cry out for His righteousness and they would reject their own nature. Let us listen to the writer of Psalm 119."My soul clings to the dust; revive me according to Your word. I have declared my ways, and You answered me; teach me Your statutes. Make me understand the way of Your precepts; so shall I meditate on Your wonderful works. My soul melts from heaviness; strengthen me according to Your word. Remove from me the way of lying, and grant me Your law graciously. I have chosen the way of truth; Your judgements I have laid before me. I cling to Your testimonies; O Lord, do not put me to shame! I will run the course of Your commandments, For You shall enlarge my heart. Psalm 119:25-32This man has learned the ways that the Lord works in His life. To know these things means that he knows the Lord. Remember, the promise of the new covenant includes, "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, "Know the Lord, for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them." Hebrews 8:11A disciple will have his heart enlarged by his Lord. The letter kills, but His promise circumcises the stoniest of hearts. In ChristJeff
How is the New Covenant better?"Teach me, O Lord, the way of Your statutes, and I shall keep it to the end.""Give me understanding, and I shall keep Your law; indeed, I shall observe it with my whole heart."Make me walk in the path of Your commandments, for I delight in it."Psalm 119:33-35Please notice that this writer knows that he in himself cannot do the things that he prays for here. He knows that the things he prays for can only be accomplished by God's divine power. Please notice the assurance of his prayers. If God, "teaches, gives, and makes," then he will be enabled to obey God's law. Also, please hear the results of God's work in this individual. He prays for God to make him walk in the paths of His commandment. Why does he pray this way? "For I delight in it." Meditate on this idea. This is not meant as a condeming remark but rather as an exhortation. I do not have the time to respond to all the various threads and posts. Yet this is what I heard yesterday. Brothers and sisters are searching their hearts. That is good. Yet within the same context, we are going to devotional and catechisms written by men. What does this say about the desires of our hearts?Paul teaches the Corinthians in Chapter 3, that one man sows another waters, but it is only God who gives the increase. Look to the place where the writer of Psalm 119 seeks to find peace. It is from God, because he has experienced the living water. Think about all the times Paul prays for the believers of the various churches. Paul prays, Lord, give them the understanding of the truth. Lord, may they know the depts of the love that You have for them. You see Paul can only direct you to his Savior. Paul cannot express or give another believer the understanding that only comes from God. Until each one of us believes in the promise that Scripture will satisfy our thirst, one will continue to live in the wilderness. The New Covenant promises that,"from the least of them to the greatest of them," they will understand this promise, "for they shall know Me." Hebrews 8:11The thoughts that men share of their own experiences with God do not compare to those you share with God. He is the living fountain, do not forsake Him, and build your own broken cisterns which can hold no water.In ChristJeff
How is the New Covenant better?"Incline my heart to Your testimonies, and not to covetousness."The word, "incline," is noted in my bible as also being translated, "Cause me to long for." "Turn away my eyes from looking at worthless things, and revive me in Your way."The word, "turn," is noted in my bible as also being translated, "Cause my eyes to pass away." Psalm 119:36-37The writer of this Psalm looks to his Savior to deliver him from the bondage of covetousness. This man has experienced the goodness of God. This man desires more of that goodness. Yet, this man also recognizes that the time he spends "looking at worthless things," diminishes his relationship with his Savior. How many professing Christians pray for deliverance from striving after the things of this world? We in the U.S. are most tempted by the pursuits of worthless things.Only by the promises contained in the New Covenant can we experience the same longings for God's goodness that the writer of Pslam 119 speaks of. Remember the law given on Mount Sinai taught Paul that he was sinful. It didn't deliver him from covetousness.In ChristJeff
This is a side note, going back to Christ raising up a new generation when the captivity of 70 years is complete. Remember some of the posts which dealt with "THE BRANCH?I was reading the end of Jeremiah this morning and this thought came to mind. The final chapters talk of the judgement that is coming upon Babylon and all the nations of that time. Hear the judgement on Babylon:"You have indeed been trapped, O Babylon, and you were not aware; you have been found and also caught, because you have contended against the Lord. The Lord has opened His armory, and has brought out the weapons of His indignation; for this is the work of the Lord God of Hosts in the land of the Chaldeans...Repay her according to her work; according to all she has done, do to her; for she has been proud against the Lord, against the Holy One of Israel. Jeremiah 50:24-29This reminds me of Psalm 2:"Why do the nations rage, and the people plot a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against His ANNOINTED, saying, "Let us break Their bonds in pieces and cast away Their cords from us." He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; the Lord shall hold them in derision.Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, and distress them in His deep displeasure; Yet I have set My King on My holy hill of Zion." Psalm 2:1-7Do you see Psalm 2 in Jeremiah 50? Listen a little longer:"Thus says the Lord of hosts: "The children of Israel were oppressed, along with the children of Judah; all who took them captive have held them fast; they have refused to let them go." Jeremiah 50:33 This is the reason for God's wrath on Babylon. That nation disobeyed God in terms of its care for the captives, Judah and Israel. Now listen to whom the Lord speaks!"Their Redeemer is strong; The Lord of hosts is His name. He will thoroughly plead their case, that He may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon." Jeremiah 50:34Do you see the work of the King and High Priest Melchizedek? He is the King who rules with the rod of iron, He dashes the nation to pieces who act defiantly towards Him. Do you see the Redeemer of Judah and Israel, "He will plead their case, that He may give rest to the land..." Jeremiah 50:34 Do you see our Mediator pleading in behalf of His inheritance? Think back to the meeting between Abraham and Melchizedek. Abraham had just defeated the kings and then Abraham paid a tithe to Melchizedek. Then the Lord delivered His inheritance from the proud nations. Then the Lord gave rest to His people. Do you see the King with His rod and the Priest with His rest? In ChristJeff
"Remove from me the way of lying, and grant me Your law graciously." vs 29"Incline my heart to Your testimonies, and not to covetousness." vs 36"Behold, I long for Your precepts; revive me in Your righteousness." Psalm 119:29-40The writer of Psalm 119 confesses his sins before the Lord. Lying and covetousness plague his soul. He knows that nothing in his carnal strength can overcome the ways of his flesh. What does he pray for? "Revive me in Your righteousness." This man knows of God's righteousness. Listen to Pauls prayer for the nation of Israel."Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved...For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God." Romans 10:1-3Please note the difference between the writer of Psalm 119 and the generation that Paul speaks of. The writer of Psalm 119 knew of God's righteousness. The generation of Paul's day did not. What was the difference between the two? The generation of Paul's day did not submit to God's righteousness. Further meditate on the fact that the writer understood or knew of God's righteousness and that that righteousness enables him to overcome his sinful tendencies. So when people teach of the righteousness that is imputed to those who call on their Savior, this righteousness is learned by walking in faith. The Jews of Paul's day thought that they could be righteous by following the coventant given on Mount Sinai. Remember that covenant made nothing righteous. Jesus says, Take My yoke and learn from Me. That is the only righteousness by which man can be saved. Elihu taught in the book of Job, "He shall pray to God, and He will delight in him, he shall see His face with joy, for He restores to man His righteousness. Job 33:26In ChristJeff
How is the New Covenant better?"Blessed is the man who endures temptation: for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted,"I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death." James 1:12-15We know that the old covenant taught Paul what sin is. We know that without the Holy Spirit's guidance we have no way of overcoming sin. Look to what James writes, "...each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires..." James is teaching as Paul that the old man, the carnal mind, the flesh has no power over sin. Sin is conceived by the desires of our wicked hearts. The only way to overcome sin is through our relationship with our Savior. Listen to the heart of the writer of Psalm 119."Let Your mercies come also to me, O Lord- Your salvation according to Your word." vs 41. Salvation comes from God because He is merciful towards us. In His mercy we learn through the work of His word in us. "For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12The writer of Psalm 119 has a God who speaks to him. He teaches, convicts, testifies, and judges all things pretaining to the desires and intents of the writers' heart. He shows him the evil and wicked things that come from his flesh. He gives this man the desire to confess his sins. He gives this man the desire for His judgements. He gives this man liberty from the bondage of the flesh. Listen to this man's testimony. "And I will walk at liberty, for I seek Your precepts." vs 45The knowledge of the precepts of God cause this man to walk at liberty from the condemnation of the law of God. The New Covenant gives this liberty. In ChristJeff
How is the New Covenant better?"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God,..." Romans 10:17We are saved by grace through faith alone. This statement we have heard many times. Paul taught that hearing the word of God creates faith. So hearing the word of God would amount to the grace of God. Let us listen to the writer of Psalm 119."Remember the word to Your servant, upon which You have caused me to hope. This is my comfort in my affliction, For Your word has given me life. Psalm 119:49-50Look to who has caused this man to have hope. By what means has the hope been created in this man. What is the result of this work? "Your word had given me life." What is the definition of faith? "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1We hear the writer of Psalm 119 give the source from which his hope is created. The word that God spoke to him. The grace of God through His commanding, judging, speaking, teaching, and testifying creates hope in this man. What is the evidence of the things not seen? The writer's heart cries out to his God. God has made the old covenant obsolete. In ChristJeff
How is the New Covenant better?"The proud have me in great derision, yet I do not turn aside from Your law. I remember Your judgements of old, O Lord, and have comforted myself. Indignation had taken hold of me because the wicked, who forsake Your law." Psalm 119: 51-53God promised back in Genesis 3:15, "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel." The writer of Psalm 119 understands that there will be hatred between the two peoples. God judged all men that day. Those who remain under the first covenant will hate those who have the righteousness of Christ. To actually witness this reproach verifies that God is working in you. Listen to the teaching of John concerning the judgements of old."Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest; Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous. Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you." 1 John 3:7-13Does not the writer of Psalm 119 speak of the same covenant? We know that no one is made perfect by the first, but by the grace of God one begins to be set apart from the wickedness of this world. Only the promise of God to be your God will bring this work into your life. Does the world hate you? Or do you find the world interesting? In ChristJeff
How is the New Covenant better?"Your statutes have been my songs in the house of my pilgrimage. I remember Your name in the night, O Lord, and I keep Your law. This has become mine, because I kept Your precepts. Psalm 119:54-56The law given to Moses taught one what sin was. The writer of these words speak to the promises of God. There is no remorse spoken of in these verses. But there is joy. This man speaks of possessing an understanding which enables him to live a victorious life. The victory is the removal of the condemnation of the first covenant. Many Christians parrot the teachers of this generation. They take Romans 7 and apply it to their lives. They use Chapter 7 as a crutch. They say, "My works are filthy rages." They say, "There is nothing good in me." They say, "I cannot learn to be holy." But you see there is a lack of understanding in this precept formulated by man. The writer of Psalm 119 does not agree with the teachers of this day. Is he wrong? Is he speaking blasphemous things? Or do we not see the precepts of God that he sees? The writer speaks of assurance in the victory over death. The writer's life demonstrates that victory over death. He sings, "Your statutes have been my songs in the house of my pilgrimage." He sings, "This has become mine, because I kept Your precepts." He sings of an inheritance that is experienced in this world. The joy of the Lord is his strength. Why do you suppose we Christians lack this joy? We say we are the people of the New Covenant, yet is the word of God in our hearts? Do our hearts sing?In ChristJeff
How is the New Covenant better?"You are my portion, O Lord; I have said that I would keep Your words, I entreated Your favor with my whole heart; be merciful to me according to Your word." Psalm 119:57-58In Jeremiah 10, God speaks of the futile works of the gentiles. He speaks of the worthless idols that men slave for. And then He speaks of His infinite glory. And at the end of the chapter He says this:"The Portion of Jacob is not like them, for He is the Maker of all things, and Israel is the tribe of His inheritance; The Lord of host is His name." Jeremiah 10:16The writer of Psalm 119 knew the Portion of Jacob. This speaks of a God that is able to satisfy all our desires. This speaks of a God that promises to be our God. To know of the portion that brings peace into one's life enables us to leave the bondage of this world behind. Have we experienced the Portion that allows us to forgive as He forgives us. Have we experienced the Portion that overcomes our rights in this world? Have we experienced the Portion that causes us to cling to Him?The first covenant condemned, the second enables.In ChristJeff
"I entreated Your favor with my whole heart; be merciful to me according to Your word. I thought about my ways, and turned my feet to Your testimonies. I made haste, and did not delay to keep Your commandments." Psalm 119:58:60Now we know that the law kills and makes nothing perfect. We know that it only teaches one about what God says is sin. But the heart of this man exceeds this knowledge. The heart of this man has an understanding that comes only from God. He repeated prays for understanding which enables him to continue walking with his Lord. Do you see repentance illustrated in these verses? Do you see that repentance can only be granted by God? This is the value that comes from understanding, the New Covenant teaches man that the goodness of God brings repentance. In ChristJeff
I recently listened to the Tozer sermons on the Remnant. This particular verse speaks to the remnant that existed during the time of the writer of Psalm 119."I am a companion of all who fear You, and of those who keep Your precepts." Today there are some teachers that will admit to the fact that the OT saints were born again. But most teach to limiting the group to those who wrote the books of the OT. I once heard John McArthur, a well known west coast bible teacher speak to this thought. Yet, what does the writer of Psalm 119 say to this thought? He has companions who keep His precepts. In ChristJeff
65 \tYou have dealt well with Your servant,\tO LORD, according to Your word. 66 \tTeach me good judgment and knowledge,\tFor I believe Your commandments. 67 \tBefore I was afflicted I went astray,\tBut now I keep Your word. 68 \tYou are good, and do good;\tTeach me Your statutes. 69 \tThe proud have forged a lie against me,\tBut I will keep Your precepts with my whole heart. 70 \tTheir heart is as fat as grease,\tBut I delight in Your law. 71 \tIt is good for me that I have been afflicted,\tThat I may learn Your statutes. The Lord grants repentance. It can not come of man. Listen to the work of the Lord in this man's soul. The knowledge and judgement he speaks of comes from the correction that the Lord brings into this man's life. This is another precept of promise to be God to this man. Can the law given on Mount Sinai create this precept in man?Do you see how the word of God is living and power, able to divide our beings, showing us the condition of our heart?In ChristJeff
So far in this Psalm we have heard the prayers for deliverance from sin. Again, 28 \tMy soul melts from heaviness;\tStrengthen me according to Your word. 29 \tRemove from me the way of lying,\tAnd grant me Your law graciously. 36 \tIncline my heart to Your testimonies,\tAnd not to covetousness. 37 \tTurn away my eyes from looking at worthless things,\tAnd revive me in Your way. 58 \tI entreated Your favor with my whole heart;\tBe merciful to me according to Your word. 59 \tI thought about my ways,\tAnd turned my feet to Your testimonies. 60 \tI made haste, and did not delay\tTo keep Your commandments. 66 \tTeach me good judgment and knowledge,\tFor I believe Your commandments. 67 \tBefore I was afflicted I went astray,\tBut now I keep Your word. 71 \tIt is good for me that I have been afflicted,\tThat I may learn Your statutes. 72 \tThe law of Your mouth is better to me\tThan thousands of coins of gold and silver. Do you hear where the ability to repent comes from? It does not come from reading the law. It does not come from doing the works of the law. Repentance comes from the relationship one has with his Lord and Savior. Do you see the work of the Holy Spirit? Do you see what the work of the Holy Spirit does in one who believes?In ChristJeff
Listen to what the writer of Psalm 119 says about hope.73 Your hands have made me and fashioned me; Give me understanding, that I may learn Your commandments. 74 Those who fear You will be glad when they see me, Because I have hoped in Your word."Here Scripture teaches us about the results or evidence brought about in this man's life because the Word of God was the substance of what he hoped for. What are the results spoken of here?"Those who fear You will be glad when they see me..." Does this not speak of his relationship with God. Godly fear is present in all those who God has made a promise too. Also notice that there is fellowship with others who God has worked in. This verse represents the workmanship of God that enable the faithful to fullfill the two most important commandments. We are to love God with our whole mind, soul, and body and love one another. Do you see that it is the precept of hope that enables man to obey God. And this hope is centered on the word of God. All those who rebell only have satan as their father. In ChristJeff
75 \tI know, O LORD, that Your judgments are right,\tAnd that in faithfulness You have afflicted me. 76 \tLet, I pray, Your merciful kindness be for my comfort,\tAccording to Your word to Your servant. 77 \tLet Your tender mercies come to me, that I may live;\tFor Your law is my delight. Many Christians do not share the same understanding that this writer speaks of. Many will sumarily dismiss the OT altogether. I once did. Listen to his words. He has, after experiencing the correction of the Lord, understood the precept of God's faithfulness to him. This result of God's faithfulness has brought an understanding of the love that his Father has for him. The affliction has brought him into closer relationship with his Father. The understanding of sin in his life has shown him both how merciful the Father is with a disobedient child and how the Father breaks the bondage of that sin in his life. Listen to his heart. 'Let Your tender mercies come to me, that I may live; for Your law is my delight." Most believers are fearful of holiness. But this man knows that life comes from growing in holiness. His Lord increases in his life. There is never, in this life, a time when life can be put on hold. In ChristJeff