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Will You Kill or Be Killed?

C
chapel

Will You Kill or Be Killed?

Is Christianity really a violent religion? And is Islam really a peaceful religion?

By Dan Wiesner

Within the Muslim foundational religious text, the Qu'ran, and in overall Muslim belief is the idea and claim that the religion of Islam is the final revelation on top of Judaism and Christianity. The foundational text of Christianity is the Bible consisting of two main parts: the Old Testament (OT) and the New Testament (NT). The Old Testament is the "testimony" or record of the events of creation and the worldwide flood and then mostly a historical record of the people commonly known as the Jews (their religion is called Judaism). The NT is the "testimony" or record of the life and words of Jesus Christ and the first Christians. The OT is a revelation of the mind of God to a particular people and nation on earth, called the Jews. The NT is a revelation of God in the person of Jesus Christ to the whole world. These Testaments together make up the voice of God calling the race of humans back to a relationship with Him, having been separated and alienated from Him through our sin. The Qur'an (which came about 600 AD, around 600 years after Christ and the NT) declares itself to be the final revelation of the OT and the NT by the prophet Muhammad to sum up and clarify the two previous revelations.

While there are several problems with this claim of Islam, we intend to present what is ultimately a central belief, commandment, and doctrine of Islam effecting practical life that runs totally contrary to the core of Christianity. Given the times and current events, this point is extremely relevant. Christianity claims in its religious text and tradition, to be the final revelation of the Covenant between God and the Jews. Jesus and His early followers as it is recorded in the NT, revealed the purpose of God in choosing the Jews on the way to revealing Himself to all nations. The New Testament of Jesus Christ is the contract of covenant between God and the Jews and all nations, kindreds, and tribes. The NT declares through prophecy (or knowledge given from God of future events) the end of all things seen and the coming of the eternal kingdom of God (i.e. Heaven). The record plainly leaves no room for another "final" revelation. It is written in the account about the end of all things in the NT (called the book of Revelation), that if anyone adds to or takes away from this book, the plagues that are testified of in the book of Revelation will be added to that person. Do the Qur'an and Islam do this? And if so, how?

The hope of the writer here is to declare the excellency of the New Covenant or Testament of the Gospel of Jesus Christ over the claims of the Qur'an and Islam. The major point to be looked at is the commandments to the believers of the respective religions are to obey in regard to violence, self-defense, executing justice (with physical force), and physical force in general.

From an obvious simple reading of the verses in the Qur'an in their contexts, one can see that Islam is not the inherently peaceful religion that was depicted in the media by its non-terrorist advocates in response to the 9-11 incident. One of the saddest things about the event is that from Islam's foundation, and believed to be God-inspired text, there is justification for such behavior. While some would argue that the Qur'an only gives justification for self-defense or engagement in what has been called "just war," the author will present verses from the Qur'an for the reader to judge for him or her self. Even if we look at the Qur'an as only giving justification for self-defense or just war, we can still show how this contradicts the Gospel of Jesus Christ and bring forth the excellency of Christ's commands and thus how God will judge our soul in the end of all things.

One thing to note is that earlier in the Qur'an or early in Muhammad's revelation of the Qur'an, there are verses stated about tolerance and peacefulness. Muslims have told the author that this is true: Islam stated as non-violent and tolerant, and later it had to respond to its physical attackers, its non-violent subverters, and those who would not submit to its standards and rules. This response is not just opposite to the commanded Christian response, but such a response is motivated by theology and purported revelation of future events totally opposed and contrary to Christianity. This is the great warning and indignation that has been the impetus for the author's writing.

Something initially must be said about the Holy Bible and particularly the New Testament--the record of the words and life and Jesus and the first Christians. This is the record or measure, the blue print of what a Christian is to believe, how to behave, and for what the collective whole of Christianity is to look like. It is an objective measure in that it is unchanged from when it was revealed to men by God and thus committed to writing. (The author would like to provide historical and archaeological supporting evidence for this claim upon request.) As the NT is composed of certain letters and accounts that have been chosen and confirmed by God to be inspired by Him, it is closed to addition and subtraction. Its objective is that one can take this measure and line it up to a church or to someone who professes to believe in Jesus and see if what they are saying and doing coincide or are the same. The importance a Christian should hold in the Bible is paramount in this world of many religions and beliefs, particularly amongst those that call themselves Christians.

Now you may be wondering what is all this about self-defense and war, etc. in Christianity that is so different from Islam. Again, contrary to popular opinion and practice, and based solely on the foundational religious text of Christianity, there is not one single verse that would allow a true Christian to do violence to another person under any circumstance. (The author would greatly desire to show why few that call themselves Christians have obeyed these commands of Jesus in the NT and to also relay information on the righteous few that have obeyed these throughout history. It would be helpful for the reader to know what light TRUE Christianity sheds on the "Crusades" and "Inquisitions.") Again, there are absolutely no verses permitting Christians to harm another (individually or collectively). There are, however, many verses against physically harming another. Moreover, Jesus only permitted only type of self-defense for His followers--to flee, or run away. You may think this is cowardly in the sight of men, but it is righteous, holy, and necessary in the sight of God.

Recently, the author has even heard Muslims saying that Islam and the Qur'an have the same principles of "just war" and self-defense as Christianity. Let us see what the text says.

Time and space would not permit an exhaustive explanation of the difference between the Old and New Covenants that make up the whole Christian Bible. There are differences between the Testaments in what is commanded pertaining to physical force. It should, however, be stated that while there are differences, these Testaments are not contrary to one another, but the first leads into or is fulfilled by the last. All who truly believe in God after what is declared in the New, as will become clear. Within the text of the OT, the coming of the New is proclaimed by the prophets. Jeremiah prophesied that the days would come when God would make a new covenant, not as He made with the fathers of the nation of Israel in the days of old, but the He would give them new hearts, a change in their inward parts. (Please see Jeremiah 31:31-34 in the OT)

Furthermore, many prophecies are written in the OT of how this new covenant would come about. They generally are pictures, images, and descriptions of the herald of the New Covenant. This herald or messenger is known as the "anointed one," or messiah, savior, redeemer, or eternal king. This Messiah is ultimately the embodiment of the New Covenant. Isaiah prophesied in the voice of God, "behold my servant, my elect ... my spirit is upon Him ... I give you for a covenant of the people, a light of the Gentiles..." or non-Jewish people. It says that He would bring the truth to the Jews and non-Jewish peoples. It says, "New things I declare ... to open the eyes of the blind, to bring the prisoners out of prison ... who will give ear to this ... who will hearken and hear for the time to come?" (Please see Isaiah 42:1-9, 23 in the OT)

Isaiah further identifies this herald of the New Covenant, calling Him "the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace," and of Him also, "unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: the government shall be upon His shoulders ... of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon His kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice ... for ever." (Isaiah 9:6-7) (The author would greatly desire to present more OT and NT verses about the deity of the Messiah.)

The New Testament is the record of this "elect" or "Chosen one" having come and descriptions of what His kingdom, government, and covenant is life. Let us consider His kingdom and the law of His kingdom compared to verses of the kingdom declared in the Muslim Qur'an.

In this following core teaching of Jesus the Messiah or Christ, once can see the excellency of the New Covenant compared to the Old, as well as specific commandments for His followers to obey pertaining to killing and retribution of wrong done to oneself:

21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment ...
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, that ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right check, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coast, let him have thy cloak also. (Matthew 5:21-22, 38-39)

Continued:

N
NoWhining

I'm 57 yo, and raised in a Pentecostal church most of my life. I have never heard anyone teach the principals that Christ gave us in Matthew 5, 6, and 7.

Thanks for the article and am looking for the second page. Don

S
sermonindex

Chapel,

You have been posting what appears to be a strictly non resistence stance for those who claim the name of Christ.

My question to you is this.
Christians who are in governement or military roles. If they kill or authorize others to kill, are they then not christians and or are they judged as murders by God? If murders by God then no murderer has a place in the kingdom, yes? no?

I ask you this cuz the stance you are taking appears to logicaly move to believe that christians in Government or military are not real christians.

chow.

S
sermonindex

Thank you Brother Chapel.

Much needed in these last days.
Also looking forward to Pt. 2.

S
sermonindex

HI thingsabove......what does the Word of God say? I am assumeing that you have read the New Testemant? Its all in there. Now some say that what Jesus taught was not practical. Others say that we can lay aside the teachings of Jesus if we serve in the military of governmnet. My only question would be, where does it teach that in the NT? Where does Jesus give us these clauses? "The just war," theory is man's theory and any wisdom of man is just that. The world is constantly changing and has been since Jesus walked this earth, but the Word of God remains unchanged, and God never changes. Now, if this was a typical debate, someone is going to mention Hitler and WW11. It is a fact that most of the German soldiers were professing Christians, as were the Brits and the French and the Americans and the Italians, not to mention the Aussies and all of the countries of the lowlands. Now imagine that the mad authors of wars had not the professing Christians to call on to fight their wars, what would they do? There was a famous incident in the first world war on Christmas of the first year of the war. Somehow the troops got out of their trenches and came together, sang hymns, played soccer and showed each other pictures of their loved ones. It culminated in a religious service. Now when the superiors heard about this all hell broke loose. Men were refusing to fire on their "enemies." The pastor that held the service was sent back to Scotland, and other men had to be brought in to shoot one of the other side and start it of again. Well was it said in those days that the men were "lions led by donkeys." The horror of one Christian blowing out the brains of another, because they happened to have been born in different countries boggles the mind and totally defies all of the NT teachings of Christ. Something to consider..........Frank

C
chapel

Will You Kill or Be Killed?

Is Christianity really a violent religion? And is Islam really a peaceful religion?

By Dan Wiesner

Continued:

Let us now consider some of the teachings of the Qur'an:
2:190 And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits,
2:194 Fighting in the sacred month is for aggression committed in the sacred month, and for all violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with them that fear him.

The previous statement in 2:194 of the Qur'an is the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. Jesus said, "It has been said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, BUT I SAY unto you ..." With these previously mentioned verses in mind, the next will further show how Christ commanded His disciples to respond to enemies, persecutors (physical or otherwise).

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, but hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you love your enemies, bless them that curse you, pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven, for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth his rain upon the just and the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the publicans (sinners) do the same? 48 Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:43-48)

Consider here as well the only means by which Christ permitted His followers to defend themselves:
22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. (Matthew 10:22-23)

What does the Qur'an say about persecution and whether it permits its followers to kill?
2:191 And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
2:193 Fight them until there is no more persecution, and until religion (worship) is acknowledged to be for Allah. But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression (assault) except against the oppressors.
9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and his messenger have made unlawful and who don't adopt the religion of truth (i.e., Islam) from those who were given the scripture, fight until they give tax, willingly while they are humbled.

If it is not apparent by now that Islam puts forth a doctrine contrary to Christianity, the author will quote more of what the NT says. In the following verses, Christ reveals a completely different God and a completely different future and kingdom than what the preceding Qur'anic verses presented. Jesus said:
9Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. 10Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. (Matthew 5:9-12)

And not just Jesus, but the Apostle Paul said, 14Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not... 17Recompense to no man evil for evil... 18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. (Romans 12:14,17,18-21)

And also the Apostle Peter: 12Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 14If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. 15But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. 16Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. (1 Peter 4:12-16)

So we can see that Christ and the Apostles Peter and Paul definitely didn't say that killing is better than persecution, but on the contrary, the followers of Jesus are explicitly forewarned and encouraged to joyfully accept the lot of suffering persecution for Christ's sake since it shall yield a blessing! They said not to do evil or violence to any man, even if he's done evil to you first!

Islam and Christianity do have in common the intent (or commandment) to propagate. And with the intent to propagate would come the need to defend against the resistance to propagation. Paul spoke wisely by God's Spirit to comfort the early Christians, "you can do nothing against the truth." (1 Corinthians 13:8) It is manifest that Christ and His ways are the truth, in that only God can increase a group of people that are continually being killed. The human mind does not comprehend nor desire this. Surely the early Christians walked in obedience to these commands through much of their own bloodshed. An early Christian writer from the late 100s (who also believed that Christians were to abstain from violence and military service) said, and thus summarized the first two and half centuries of Christianity, "the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church."

Jesus Christ told the truth about this life and things to come, and what is required of man to stand aright with and be reconciled to God. Things that run contrary to this or take away from it are lies. The author has found a great wisdom in God to send such a one as His Son, with meekness, gentleness, and love to bright the truth -- the truth that can set a person free from sin and death or if one rejects it, condemns him or her to a most fearful reality. Christ's truth is proclaimed by His followers without compromise, with utter boldness, yet in the meekness and love and gentleness with which He walked. Persuasion by violence of force has no place in Christ's commands to spread His covenant nor would that type of persuasion be coherent with God's desire in the Gospel message. "Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17) If a man is forced to partake, his heart, will, and all is not in the partaking. His heart remains unchanged.

Man will have to use violence to promote man's plan. In this sin-corrupted world, God could use, has used, and does use (but never by the hands of Christians) war and violence to bring forth His will and plan of reconciliation, just as God uses all events and decisions in time and history to fulfill His plan while allowing for free will. He used war with the Jews in the Old Testament times, but God's fullest intent was, in His timing, to make manifest the most excellent way. With the coming of God's only begotten Son came a new and greater understanding and responsibility for those who will truly follow God. Indeed, "it has been said of old," God once gave the blueprint for an earthly, temporal kingdom (as a shadow or foreshadowing of the heavenly, eternal kingdom to come), then gave Christ as the king of the eternal kingdom, with its order and statutes. For Muhammad to come 600 years later after Christ and put forth a sort of Old Testament place using the typical human means of strength, wisdom, and might is moving backwards. It is reported that the Qur'an and the doctrine of Islam, which was to be the culminating revelation on top of Judaism and Christianity, was given to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel. Paul aptly warned us 600 years prior, "if we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:9) Again, it was also prophesied by the LORD ahead of time in the OT by the prophet Zechariah, "Not by might (or force), nor by power, but by my Spirit." (Zechariah 4:6) One can see that in the most excellent way, God proclaims His truth on earth, not by those who kill, but rather by those who are killed, who do not resist evil but are like sheep led to the slaughter, as the Savior, Jesus Christ was.

Final note: some may say the verses quoted from the Qur'an here only justify reactive or self-defense type violence or war. While we have seen that Christ and the apostles did not permit even that, let us consider a few more verses from the Qur'an that appear to be proactive, or command violence in the absence of any previous attack, or command violent reaction to non-violent propagation of Christianity or non-Muslim beliefs:

5:33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
5:36 Surely those who disbelieve, even if they had what is in the earth, all of it, and the like of it with it, that they might ransom themselves with it from the punishment of the day of resurrection, it shall not be accepted from them, and they shall have a painful punishment.
2:244 ... fight in the cause of Allah
47:4 ...when you meet the unbelievers smite at their necks...
9:5 So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush,
9:12 And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief-- surely their oaths are nothing-- so that they may desist.
9:14 Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.
4:34 ...and those [women] on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them;

May one be so encouraged by your God-given ability to reason and by the provocation of your own conscience to consider these things from an honest heart. The author encourages all to look at the context of verses from the Qur'an and Bible.

Bible quotes are taken from the King James Version. Qur'an quotes from Holy Qur'an, translated by M.H. Shakir and published by Tahrike Tarsile Qur'an, Inc., 1983.
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sermonindex

It's not that hard. Chapel and now Frank. Please think about and answer my direct question I asked previously.

I have also posted my bigger position on other threads. I will do it again if need be.


However I am asking you to answer specificaly my previous question.

Just answer the question.

H
hmmhmm

Marching to Zion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei_Hu1hcsa4

Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlBA2zp992c

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sermonindex

HI thingsabove, I did answer your question. Your follow up question seems to lack some civility which is not good for a genuine discussion, but perhaps I read you wrong. My answer was, obey the Scriptures. That may not be complicated enough for some, but I just repeat, obey the commands of Jesus.

I like hmmmmm's reply, I find it to be balanced. One thing to add to hmmmmm's point. Not only did the Apostles and the discpiles not join Nero's army, which perhaps anyone could understand , they did not join in the defence of Israel which, given the logic of many of today's Christians would be almost impossible to understand. Just think about this for a second. We in the West, whether we come from America or Europe, perhaps belong to contries that , as an actual entity have been around for maybe 1000-1500 years. The Jewish people had a culture, at the time of Christ, which spanned almost 2500 years. Their identity was completely encapsulated in who they were as a nation and as a people. When the final days of their existance came in 70ad when they would cease to be a nation for almost 2000 years, that would be the time, one would imagine, if one was going to fight for their country, it would be then? Did you know that in that very year most of the Apostles were martyred, killed, not in a war to save their State, but in a war against our true enemy, the forces of darkness that lie behind all wars and bitterness and hatred. Now, given their example, and the fact that not one of these Apostles fought in the war to save their own country from anhilliation, but fought and died in a more brutal war, the war that their Commander in Chief had called them to, what war should we fight in? What war have we been called to? We have been bought with a price, our lives, as Christians are no longer ours, we follow the commands of our Lord and Saviour Jesus, its that simple. Do what He says, go where He tells you to go and as long as that falls within the boundaries of Scriptures, one day you will hear these words "Well done good and faithful servant." ...........Frank

S
savannah

To all saints,

My emphasis above is 'to all saints', yet my appeal is to those who'd consider themselves to be of the "reformed faith" as part of what follows is from a "reformed" document.

I'd also appeal to any who may be of a zionistic (Zionism) mindset, which would include many who hold to Dispensationalism. They may go under many names but some which come to mind are those of the "moral majority" or who fight under the banner of "God and Country". These often believe in a "Christian America".

The sixth commandment

EXOD. 20:13 Thou shalt not kill
DEUT. 5:17 Thou shalt not kill

From the "Heidelberg Catechsim "
Approved January 1563

Question 105

What does God require in the sixth commandment?

Answer 105

That neither in thoughts, nor words, nor gestures, much less in deeds, I dishonour, hate, wound, or kill my neighbour, by myself or by another: (Matt.5:21,22; Matt.26:52; Gen.9:6) but that I lay aside all desire of revenge: (Eph.4:26; Rom.12:19; Matt.5:25; Matt.18:35) also, that I hurt not myself, nor wilfully expose myself to any danger. (Rom.13:14; Col.2:23; Matt.4:7) Wherefore also the magistrate is armed with the sword, to prevent murder. (Gen.9:6; Exod.21:14; Matt.26:52; Rom.13:4)

Question 106

But this commandment seems only to speak of murder?

Answer 106

In forbidding murder, God teaches us, that he abhors the causes thereof, such as envy, (Prov.14:30; Rom.1:29) hatred, (1 John 2:9,11) anger, (James 1:20; Gal.5:19,21) and desire of revenge; and that he accounts all these as murder. (1 John 3:15)

Question 107

But is it enough that we do not kill any man in the manner mentioned above?

Answer 107

No: for when God forbids envy, hatred, and anger, he commands us to love our neighbour as ourselves; (Matt.7:12; Matt.22:39; Rom.12:10) to show patience, peace, meekness, mercy, and all kindness, towards him, (Eph.4:2; Gal.6:1,2; Matt.5:5,7,9; Rom.12:18; Luke 6:36; 1 Pet.3:8; Col.3:12; Rom.12:10,15) and prevent his hurt as much as in us lies; (Exod.23:5) and that we do good, even to our enemies. (Matt.5:44,45; Rom.12:20,21)

Question 101

May we then swear religiously by the name of God?

Answer 101

Yes: either when the magistrates demand it of the subjects; or when necessity requires us thereby to confirm a fidelity and truth to the glory of God, and the safety of our neighbour: for such an oath is founded on God's word, (Deut.6:13; Deut.10:20; Isa.48:1; Heb.6:16) and therefore was justly used by the saints, both in the Old and New Testament. (Gen.21:24; Gen.31:53,54; Jos.9:15,19; 1 Sam.24:22; 2 Sam.3:35; 1 Kin.1:28-30; Rom.1:9; 2 Cor.1:23)

To question and answer #101 I'd add the following:

DD FORM 4/1 and 4/2 are authentic government documents which all are required to swear to and sign when contracting with any branch of the military for the U.S Government. These forms may be found online in their entirety if anyone is interested.

All enlistees before their acceptance into the U.S. military(any branch) are required to make/take an oath of allegiance to the state and its officers with their signature upon said document.

Here are some of the exact words which are written in said document, I quote:

"FOR ALL ENLISTEES OR REENLISTEES: Many laws,
regulations, and military customs will govern my
conduct and require me to do things a civilian does not have to do. The following statements are not promises or guarantees of any kind. They explain some of the present laws affecting the Armed Forces which I cannot change but which Congress can change at any time.

My enlistment is more than an employment
agreement. As a member of the Armed Forces of the
United States, I will be:

Required to obey all lawful orders and perform all
assigned duties...Required upon order to serve in combat or other hazardous situations.

Laws and regulataions that govern military personnel may change without notice to me. Such changes may affect my status, pay, allowances,benefits, and responsibilities as a member of the Armed Forces REGARDLESS of the provisions of this enlistment/reenlistment document.In the event of war, my enlistment in the Armed Forces continues until six (6) months after the war ends,unless my enlistment is ended sooner by the President of the United States.

I, (NAME) , do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of
Military Justice.
So help me God.

I CERTIFY THAT I HAVE CAREFULLY READ THIS DOCUMENT.ANY QUESTIONS I HAD WERE EXPLAINED TO MY SATISFACTION.

SIGNATURE OF ENLISTEE/REENLISTEE
DATE SIGNED

ENLISTMENT/REENLISTMENT OFFICER CERTIFICATION

The above oath was administered, subscribed, and
duly sworn to (or affirmed) before me this date."

The truth is that the christian is not as those who cried,"We have no King but Caesar",who had Christ the King crucified. Rather,the christian has no King but Jesus. Consider just these few of the many words in Scripture which address this vital issue of swearing and oath-taking:

Leviticus 19:12: "And you shall not swear by My name falsely, neither shall you profane the name of your God: I am the Lord."

Matthew 5:33-37:
Again you have heard that it was said to those of old,"You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord." But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem,for it is the city of the great King. Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair
white or black. But let your "Yes" be "Yes," and your "No," "No." For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

James 5:12: "But above all, my brethren, do not swear,either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath.But let your "Yes" be "Yes," and your "No," "No," lest you fall into judgment."

Ecclesiastes 5:2 "Do not be rash with your mouth, and let not your heart utter anything hastily before God.For God is in heaven, and you on earth; therefore let your words be few."

Matt. 12:36 "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

The above ought to be enough to at the least cause one to re-think what the will of God is regarding U.S. military service.

Please meditate upon both the questions and the answers which are given with Scripture references.

Above all hear [heed/obey] God in His Word.

NOTE: I myself do not hold to Anabaptist,Mennonite,Amish or the like,in regard to their doctrine of 'Non-Resistance'.

P
poet

If memory serves me, I believe God set the ruling body's in place to keep order.
Like law inforcement and the like, and God used these forces to bring judgment on people that needs to be judged. He did this multiple times in the old testament, and mentioned in the new.
If your neighbor is getting murdered, would we not run over and save them, even if it meant to kill if that is what it took to save them.
Would we not run to save Israel if she were attacked by hateful, evil, people?
If our Government is taken over by Satan himself, then it would be a judgment of God on us.
And if were martyred for our faith then were martyred for our faith, we don't kill then to save our own skin, because were being judged or tested for a greater testimony for God.
I believe God uses military to judge rogue nations who need to repent and convert or just show them who he is.
Almost never in scripture, but in some very few cases God did the judgment with his own hand without mans help.
But almost always God used military's to judge nations.
If christians did nothing during WWII, I think we would be considered in the eyes of God worse than the worse reprobate who watched his neighbor die and pull down the shades of the window so that we couldnt see what was happening and turn up the t.v. so we couldnt hear them screaming.

S
sermonindex

HI Poet...

"I believe God uses military to judge rogue nations who need to repent and convert or just show them who he is."

Apart from the judging of Caannan, which was specifically spoken by God and carried out by men, it was rogue nations that God used to do the judging of Israel, not the other way around. One mandate of God does not contradict another, there is harmony in God's teachings, you seem to suggest otherwise? Perhaps I am misreading you?. Perhaps you are co-mingling the secular state, set up to keep at bay the forces of anarchy, with "God's people,' wherever they may be. These are two different entities.One can be used as a vehicle for God's puposes as He deems it, the other is set apart, sanctified, priests in a royal priesthood, a peculiar people.....Frank

L
Leo_Grace

Dear Brothers in Christ,

This is such a hard topic. I've read the thread many times, and I've prayed for the Spirit to enlighten me on this, for I know deep in my heart that, although I would not desire to kill anyone at all, there could be situations where I would do it.

I appreciate very much all the posts on Christ's admonition not to kill, but to run away as a defense to evil, and I will try my best to do exactly this when possible.

My guiding verse for situations where one might have to kill or be killed is this:

Ro 13:9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Possible scenarios:

a) If an evil person attacks me physically, I will try my best to subdue him. However, I would rather embrace death myself rather than kill him. I would rejoice that my salvation is secure, and since my attacker might not be saved yet, I would embrace death myself.

b) If an evil person attacks a fellow Christian in front of me, I would try my best to defend him/her without killing the attacker. If it then comes to a life-or-death choice, I would die rather than kill for the reason cited in a)

c) Given the same situation as b), but it becomes a life-or-death choice for my brother/sister and not for me, I still would not kill the attacker for the reason that my brother/sister would go to God, while the attacker still needs salvation.

d) However, if an evil attacker attacks an innocent person in front of me and, as far as I know, neither of them is saved; and it is not possible to subdue the attacker without killing him, I probably would defend the innocent victim by killing the attacker.

My comfort in the above action is God's command to love my neighbor as myself. For if I allowed the evil attacker to kill the innocent victim, I would have violated that same command of God. If one would argue that I did not treat the evil attacker as myself, my only response would be: choosing between an innocent person and an evil one, I would defend the innocent. I believe that is what God would want me to do.

S
sermonindex

Frank, yes you misread and no you didn't answer my "specific" question.


But lets say you have answered the question.

Well the answer I hear is that christians who are in government or military who wield the sword are murderers. Now, since no murderer will inherit the kingdom of God then they are not real christians who have the hope of going to heaven.

Thats the answer I hear from you.
Now here is a snippet of what I believe.

I believe the "higher" road is non-resistence. I also believe the christian under proper governmental authority as a politician, military or police officer can wield the sword against unrightousness and not be judged as a murderer.

I believe getting this worked out is important for the conscience of concerned christians on both sides of the proverbial fence.

S
sermonindex

HI thingsabove, thanks for the clarification, you write....

"I also believe the christian under proper governmental authority as a politician, military or police officer can wield the sword against unrightousness and not be judged as a murderer."

Now, I understand that you believe that. Many of us have multiple opinions on any number of topics, agreed? Lets be clear, you are saying something very specific here, all I would ask for is Scripture and verse and how you extrapilate the quoted verse so that it fits with your opinion above. That way we keep it to Scripture and we may have a disagreement as to what the actual Scripture that you will quote means, but that would be fine. At least if we keep it to Scriptures we can examine context and so on and so forth, especially in light of the sermon on the mount. If we are going to say that we can put these commandments to one side if we join an organisation, then that is such a heavy doctrine that it would require multiple Scriptures to back it up. And when we consider the example set by the early church which did no such thing, it becomes even harder a point to argue, outside of self-preservation........Frank

S
sermonindex

I will give a little more detail later.

For now I encourage you and others to back away from this and thiiink about the heart of the question i asked and the answer.

Remember the question and answer can sentence many christians to hell for murder.

I will give this a day or two for thought and further comment by others.

(edit add)p.s. reminder, this isn't about me or you winning an argument.

C
chapel

Thingsabove,

I will ask a couple of favors from you before I say anything further. Please do not demand anything from me and do not expect a speedy answer to any question you may ask in our discussions.
Though I’m retired from regular employment it does not apply to the Lord’s service, so I do not spend much time on this forum. I volunteer at our local mission, at the veteran’s hospital and have many other responsibilities in service to our Lord, thus my time here is limited and your questions, though important, are not my top priority.


Please do not think in your haste there is some speedy solution from man to the questions you pose, for much greater minds than ours have struggled with them for centuries. Maybe the solution simply comes from obeying the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ with no what if’s allowed.

Ok, to start with if you were not happy with the answers you received from hmmhmm and appolus then I’m sure you will not be happy with mine.

I believe it is the words and life example of Jesus Christ that we are called to obey and follow. Jesus makes it very clear that all will be judged by his word.

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

John 14:24
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

We find it very clear in 1 Peter 2:18-23 that we are to follow his example.

“Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. [19] For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. [20] For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. [21] For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: [22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: [23] Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:”

In light of these I can only tell you what I believe the Lord has given me to follow.

We are told in 1 Cor. 11:31
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

What do we use as a standard to judge ourselves by? I believe it is his word and his example. He sets the standard we are to live by and judge ourselves by.
He did not say I should judge you or someone else and I should not be judged, he said we are to judge ourselves.

Thus I cannot answer your questions because you are asking me to judge you and others.

If you after prayerfully studying the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ are led to put yourself in the position to take the life of others for what ever reasons, you will be judged by his word, as will we all.

Thank you for your patience.
lee

S
sermonindex

Hi thingsabove, you write...

"For now I encourage you and others to back away from this and thiiink about the heart of the question i asked and the answer.

Remember the question and answer can sentence many christians to hell for murder.

I will give this a day or two for thought and further comment by others."

Not real sure where you are coming from thingsabove. All of the questions have been answered, I believe, by Chapel, hmmmmm and myself. Now you may not like the replies and thats fine, we could always agree to disagree, I feel sure Hmmmm and Chapel would agree with that. It is a centuries old debate. No need to back away and wait a few days brother, these are questions I know that Chapel and hmmmmm and myself have searched the Scriptures over, and at least for myself, that would constitute 18 years of Christianity. Just so you know, no one is going to "win this debate." :) One final point, your question and any of our answers will have absolutely no bearing on the destination of anyone's soul. A persons standing before God is based on the shed blood of Calvary and nothing more. One either knows Jesus or one does not. And if someone knows Jesus and has been regenerated, then I sleep well at night that the Holy Spirit will lead that one into all truth........Frank

S
savannah

Someone has asked,

"...how does your statement "I myself do not hold to Anabaptist,Mennonite,Amish or the like,in regard to their doctrine of 'Non-Resistance'" differ from the one held by these groups?"

I reply to all,

These groups mentioned hold to the "doctrine of non-resistance" also known as the "doctrine of non-retaliation". These doctrines in their purest form are rightly defined by the term pacifism. Therefore such adherents of said doctrines may justly be called pacifists.

Christians are not pacifists nor followers of doctrines of men,whether said doctrine be pacifism,humanism,or or any of the many other 'isms'. Although all doctrines of men are equally doctrines of men not all are equal in import,detriment,delusion or destructiveness to soul or body.

In my post(militarism and the christian) I attempted to address that very subject in brevity, 'militarism and the christian'. I purposely avoided the argument (non-violence) which is most commonly used although I agree that such argument has its strengths. I attempted to show that the military for a christian is not an option for said reason, and could not be categorized legitimately under Romans 13.Whereas there may be positions that are optional for the christian elsewhere in that sphere addressed in Romans 13.

In Romans 13 and other places is proof of civil government and the powers that be, that they are of God. We'd all desire God-fearing men to be in positions of authority to govern righteously according to the will of God as stated in Romans 13. Therefore I attempted to show that military service for the christian is categorically disloyalty to Christ Jesus our LORD and King. The argument I gave ought to be the primary one as Christ Jesus alone is our King. Whose banner alone we fight under. Not a physical warfare but a spiritual one.

To comment briefly on the 'Non-Resistance Doctrine' of said groups who wrest the Scriptures here on this as well as on many others:

Non-Resistance doctrine ignores,refuses,and denies the possibility of overcoming evil with good in many a case. They appeal to and enjoin on their followers, in the name of God, never to resist injury to self or others. They make the word resist synonomous with evil as well as the word force to be equated with violence.

There are cases in which it would not only be allowable, but in the highest degree commendable, to restrain human beings by force.The common meaning of the term force is "strength, victor, might," whether physical or moral.

As moral force may be either good or evil, according to its kind, its object, its spirit, or its manner of application, so may physical force be good or evil, according to the same considerations. For this the 'Non-Resistance Doctrine' does not allow.

When an immoral person corrupts the mind of an innocent youth by bad examples, bad counsel,and other evil influences, in which there is no physical force, he exerts a moral force. When one influences another from the error of his ways, by good examples, counsels,and other purifying influences, he exerts a moral force.So when a man by physical force destroys or does harm to the life of another he exerts physical force. But in restraining a mentally deranged person from harming another,or exerting physical force to prevent a rapist or a murderer , or any similar act, is to use a gospelly lawful physical force.

Passivity in such cases and numerous others would be most evil in the sight of both God and man. We are commanded to love our neighbor as ourselves. The command to resist not an evil person does not cancel out the command to love our neighbor. Passivity in such and many other cases would be disobedience to the command of God.

Without a qualification of the words resist not an evil person, and not taken in its context many have concluded what was never intended. Therefore under the guise of christian doctrine harm is done to others while many passively look on calling it a christian virtue as they follow this false doctrine of men. Consequently God is disobeyed by not loving our neighbor.

It is personal revenge which is at the heart of this Gospel truth which our LORD forbids.

Matt 5:39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Rom 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.

1 Thess 5:15 See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone.

H
hmmhmm

savannah, none of those groups are pacifists, they fight, just not with a sword against men, flesh and blood, they fight on their knees against the real enemy, that is the doctrine of non resistance.

another thing, when Paul speaks about government he is not speaking of a democratic people elected government, most likely he is speaking of the murderer and madman Nero who murdered thousands of christians, so when we say for example things about our government and military, that we can serve there, we need to recognize even serving saddam husseins government or stalins or hitlers can be used of Pauls words in romans 13. Not just ours.

I think many forget who and what kind of government Paul was speaking of, he was speaking of a christ persecuting hating antichrist government that God uses for his purposes and he controls. And he still does. No christian joined neros army, and no christian should join our military either. Enlist in Gods army! that is the call we should cry out.

S
savannah

Due to at least one(possibly more)persons impression that "...there must be some serious misperceptions concerning Anabaptist non-resistance" in my mind I am posting the following:

From the Conservative Australian Mennonites (also found in Mennonite Confession of Faith (1963)
Summary of Beliefs.
Statement of Faith, Practise & Intent.

Article 18

LOVE AND NON-RESISTANCE

We believe it is the will of God for His children to express divine love in all human relationships. God pours His love into the hearts of Christians so that they desire the welfare of all and express only love toward those of other races, cultures, and various economic levels. Such a life of love excludes retaliation, revenge, and prejudice. Jesus Christ in His earthly life was the supreme example of love and non-resistance. The teaching of Jesus requires His disciples to renounce all violence in human relations. We believe this applies to every area of life, to personal injustices, to situations in which people commonly resort to litigation, to industrial strife, and to international tensions and wars. As non-resistant Christians we cannot become involved in any situation or office which violates the New Testament principles of peace and non-resistance. Therefore, we cannot participate in military service, in military training, or in the voluntary financial support of war. On the other hand, consistent with the teachings of Jesus and at the risk of life itself, we must do whatever we can for the alleviation of human distress and suffering. We must remember that the basic human problem is spiritual alienation from God because of sin, consequently, we should devote our resolute energies to reconciling people to God.
Matthew 5:38-48, John 18:36, Romans 5:5, 12:18-21, 1 Corinthians 6:1-8, 2 Corinthians 10:3-4, James 2:8, 1Peter 2:23, 4:1.

Article 19

THE CHRISTIAN AND CIVIL GOVERNMENT

We believe that the civil government is ordained of God to maintain law and order in society. We seek to obey the New Testament commands to render honour to the civil authorities, to pay our taxes, to obey all the laws which do not come into conflict with the higher law of God, and to pray for our rulers. The Church should also witness to the civil authorities about doing right, about self-control and about judgment to come. However, witnessing to the State concerning matters affecting domestic or foreign policy is not within the realm of the Church’s responsibility. Individual Christians are, however, permitted to speak to civil authorities in the form of pleas for consideration and clemency.
We believe there are more consistent ways of witnessing against public evil than participating in organised marches and coercive public demonstrations directed against actions, laws, or people considered being out of harmony with Christian ethics
We are in proper order to accept protection from the government. We should not initiate court proceedings of a vindictive nature to avenge personal loss. Noting the character of the two kingdoms, Church and state, we recognise that the state does not and cannot operate according to the teaching of Christ regarding non-resistance. Non-resistant Christians cannot undertake any work for the state which would violate the principles of love and holiness as taught by Christ and His Apostles.
Acts 4:19, 5:29, Romans 13:1-7, Ephesians 1:20-22, 5:23, 1Timothy 2:1-2.

What follows is the testimony of one Mennonite
{Mennonite Church U.S.A.)

I am a pacifist. Pacifism is a commitment that arises out of my identity as a Christian, a Mennonite, an MCC [Mennonite Central Committee]worker, a student of history, and a mother. It is part of who I am.

I am a pacifist because I am a Christian.

As a Christian I am a follower of Jesus. Jesus lived a life and died a death committed to peace. In life, he taught his followers to offer creative non-violent responses to any violence inflicted against them. He offered forgiveness to those burdened with sin and guilt. He befriended the outcasts and marginal members of society. He confronted those who oppressed the poor and condemned those who practiced injustice. He showed love to his enemies and persecutors. When faced with torture and death, he did not call upon his followers to rise up in revolt. Rather, he accepted suffering willingly. His resurrection demonstrates the triumph of good over evil, of nonviolence over violence.
If I claim to follow Jesus, I must commit myself to his way of peace. This is a non-negotiable. Peace is at the heart of Jesus' message and ministry. It is central to the Gospel of Christ. If I claim to hold Christ at the centre of my life, I have no choice but to embrace his way of peace too.

I am a pacifist because I am a Mennonite.

The Anabaptists came to understand that following Christ and turning away from violence went hand in hand. Menno Simons said, "The Gospel and its adherents are not to be protected by the sword, nor are they thus to protect themselves . . . Neither do they use worldly sword or war, since all killing has ceased with them." For over four hundred years, Mennonites and Brethren in Christ have tried to uphold a commitment to peace, though not always consistently.
I cherish my church's historic commitment to forsake violence. I believe that our Anabaptist-Mennonite peace convictions are a tremendous gift that we have to offer the world. This is not to say that other Christians do not have gifts to share with us. It is to say that the ministry of proclaiming and making peace is a gift and a treasure that we have been given to share with our broken world.

Relating to Jury Duty see:

http://www.anabaptists.org/tracts/jury.html

Testimony may be brought forth from Amish,Hutterite and other such groups which believe these very same things. There are too many,and they date back to their beginnings to the present. What I have shown is more than sufficient. I need not be-labor the point as some.

Numerous individuals I've personally encountered and questioned on these issues would not deny their agreement with the tenets of pacifism.

Mahatma Gandhi's pacifism and the 'Non-Resistance' doctrine have been formed in the same man-made mold.

Individuals and sects within these sects(Anabaptism) may differ somewhat but these are the traditional beliefs set forth by their own documents dating to their origins.

William Law(1686-1761)was correct in his opposition to militarism as it is termed, as I am as well.

For this reason and others I made the qualifying statement in my original post on this thread "I myself do not hold to Anabaptist,Mennonite,Amish or the like,in regard to their doctrine of 'Non-Resistance'."

C
chapel

Excerpt from:

PACIFISM AND BIBLICAL NONRESISTANCE
by J. C. Wenger

This paper was read at the Peace Witness Seminar, Evangelicals in Social Action, Eastern Mennonite College, Harrisonburg, Virginia, November 30, 1967.

It is now being published in booklet form in the hope that it may contribute to the current discussion of Christian social ethics, a discussion which promises to be increasingly fruitful as the disciples of Christ seek to apply His teachings in a world of tensions and warfare.

Initial Definitions

"Blessed are the peacemakers," declared our Lord. The Latin Bible in Matthew 5:9 uses the term pacifici for peacemakers, and it is from this Latin word that our term pacifism derives. A pacifist is, in the loose sense, a person who labors for peace and for the abolition of strife, bloodshed, and warfare. In a stricter sense, the term pacifist is often applied to a person who declines to serve in the military because it is contrary to his convictions to destroy human life. If such a person bases his ethics on the person and teaching of Jesus Christ, he may well be called a Christian pacifist. In this sense the terms pacifist and nonresistant are synonyms.
The term nonresistant is of course taken from the word of Christ, "Resist not him that is evil" (Matthew 5:39). Or, as the New English Bible paraphrases, "Do not set yourself against the man who wrongs you." Both the ASV (1901) and the RSV(1946) support the translation first given. In this sense, the Christian nonresistant is the disciple of Christ who obeys his Lord's word not to meet evil and injustice with force and violence. He also follows the example of his loving Master, "who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously" (1 Peter 2:23, ASV). Peter also indicates that the disciple of Christ is "called" to a life of suffering-and in his nonresistant spirit he receives a blessing in such experiences as evil treatment and reviling.

What Is Involved?

What does the ethical teaching of Christ and His apostles involve in a positive way? The most basic principle is to act at all times in terms of a genuine interest in and concern for those who show hatred or ill will toward us. Christian love is not a matter of gushing sentiment, nor even of trying to feel a certain way. It is rather a deep desire to manifest in actual life the same caring love toward all men which Christ manifests. This means that the nonresistant Christian seeks actively to promote the welfare of others, even of evildoers. Also involved in Christian nonresistance is a resolute willingness to suffer injustice and injury without retaliation. Such Christlike meekness calls for divine enablement and grace. Christ never promised the nonresistant Christian immunity to suffering or even death. Theoretically, this attitude of willingness to suffer rather than to retaliate could be called Christian pacifism.

Some Basic Differences

When one turns away from theoretical considerations to actual life, however, he discovers that the terms pacifism and nonresistance are not always Synonymous. Guy F. Hershberger distinguishes pacifism from biblical nonresistance in four respects: (1) The pacifist may devote his labors to the abolition of war, making international peace his major goal, while the New Testament nonresistant is concerned primarily to bring men and women to the experience of "peace with God" through responding to the glorious gospel of Christ in repentance and faith. The ensuing relationship of peace-both with God and with men-is far deeper and more meaningful than the absence of warfare. (2) Pacifism as a movement does not always reckon as seriously as it should with the depths of sin in the human heart, and consequently, is overly optimistic about the possible abolition of war. (3) Pacifism sometimes fails to recognize the role of the threat of force in the peace-keeping function of the state -- in the preservation of law and order. In this task, the state functions as an agent of the wrath of God against sin, and even employs the threat of bodily harm if the evildoer resists. (4) Finally, the pacifist sometimes fails to see his role as one of absolute nonresistance and a willingness to suffer injustice, and to overcome evil with good, and he compromises an absolute position by "nonviolent resistance"-by behavior which is more Gandhian than Christian. ("Pacifism," Mennonite Encyclopedia.)

Full paper may be read at:

http://www.bibleviews.com/Biblicalnonresist.html#Initial

S
sermonindex

Well I have given this a couple of days of thought and prayer.

I have reread the thread and also looked back at some of the other threads that got chapel and appolus going on this new thread.

My question and answer stay the same for everyone to think on.

When you take an exclusive stance that says christians should not be in gov or military you set yourself up on a "false delema".

I have stated in this thread and a few others the more "balanced" position that Christ and the apostle would have us to take.

Those who want to take the extreme stance against christians in gov or military or police, I say fine take your position. However think about what I have said.

Now for a little twist.

Appolus wrote,

"One final point, your question and any of our answers will have absolutely no bearing on the destination of anyone's soul. A persons standing before God is based on the shed blood of Calvary and nothing more. One either knows Jesus or one does not. And if someone knows Jesus and has been regenerated, then I sleep well at night that the Holy Spirit will lead that one into all truth........Frank"


Well good frank, It appears that you do agree that a christian in gov or military or police that kills people in the line of duty will still go to heaven cuz all that matters is if they know Jesus and have been washed by the blood.
I am glad that you say that your answer or mine has no effect on them going to heaven.
Wonderful, now we can serve Jesus in whichever vocation we were called!!

God bless to all!

C
chapel

Can Christians serve in the military?

http://www.gregboyd.org/qa/christians-social-issues/can-christians-serve-in-the-military/

H
HeartSong

"And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." - John 12:23-24


Clearly it is all about the cross and the glory of God. Try to imagine Jesus resisting at any point along the way to the cross.

One of the things that the Lord is working out of me is resistance - any sort of resistance to anything that He would send my way. If I truly believe that He is in control, my rising up in any matter would in reality be a rising up against Him. This is where the Lord is taking us all - to the cross - that others may be won unto Him, for His glory. The wheat falls to the ground and dies in quiet submission. Can we? That is what He is preparing us to do.

C
chapel


HeartSong wrote:
"And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." - John 12:23-24


Clearly it is all about the cross and the glory of God. Try to imagine Jesus resisting at any point along the way to the cross.

One of the things that the Lord is working out of me is resistance - any sort of resistance to anything that He would send my way. If I truly believe that He is in control, my rising up in any matter would in reality be a rising up against Him. This is where the Lord is taking us all - to the cross - that others may be won unto Him, for His glory. The wheat falls to the ground and dies in quiet submission. Can we? That is what He is preparing us to do.


Thank you Heartsong,

Your words blessed my soul as I read them, they ring so true.

I was reading this morning and feel this fits very well into our conversation.


2 Cor. 1:3-11
God Offers Comfort to All
3 All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is our merciful Father and the source of all comfort. 4 He comforts us in all our troubles so that we can comfort others. When they are troubled, we will be able to give them the same comfort God has given us. 5 For the more we suffer for Christ, the more God will shower us with his comfort through Christ. 6 Even when we are weighed down with troubles, it is for your comfort and salvation! For when we ourselves are comforted, we will certainly comfort you. Then you can patiently endure the same things we suffer. 7 We are confident that as you share in our sufferings, you will also share in the comfort God gives us.
8 We think you ought to know, dear brothers and sisters,* about the trouble we went through in the province of Asia. We were crushed and overwhelmed beyond our ability to endure, and we thought we would never live through it. 9 In fact, we expected to die. But as a result, we stopped relying on ourselves and learned to rely only on God, who raises the dead. 10 And he did rescue us from mortal danger, and he will rescue us again. We have placed our confidence in him, and he will continue to rescue us. 11 And you are helping us by praying for us. Then many people will give thanks because God has graciously answered so many prayers for our safety.

NLT

L
Leo_Grace

Heartsong wrote:

Clearly it is all about the cross and the glory of God. Try to imagine Jesus resisting at any point along the way to the cross. One of the things that the Lord is working out of me is resistance - any sort of resistance to anything that He would send my way. If I truly believe that He is in control, [b]my rising up in any matter would in reality be a rising up against Him[/b]. This is where the Lord is taking us all - to the cross - that others may be won unto Him, for His glory. The wheat falls to the ground and dies in quiet submission. Can we? That is what He is preparing us to do.

Brothers and sisters, I must disagree. Christ's journey to the cross was initiated and catalyzed by his unwavering resistance to the false teachings and hypocrisy of religious leaders. He resisted them openly and with courage to the point of death because of his faith in God the Father.

[b]We are not called to be non-resistant, we are called to be faithful[/b] and to do whatever that faithfulness entails. This could mean actively resisting evil men and false teachers. It could mean "overturning the tables of merchants" who have turned God's temple into a marketplace.

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. [i]Resist the devil[/i], and he will flee from you.

1Pe 5:8-9 Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. [i]Resist him, standing firm in the faith[/i], because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

In Christ's Love,
Leo

H
HeartSong

Hello Leo,

I appreciate what you have written, but have a few questions. Was Jesus resisting the false teachings or was He merely being faithful the what the Father was having Him to do? I do like the focus on "faithful" - for that is what we are to do - focus on Him, but this would also require our not focusing on others as the "enemy."

In both verses that you quoted we are told to resist [u]the devil[/u] - the devil would have us to devour one another. In 1 Peter 5:8-9 we are told to "stand firm." To stand firm is not to fall back, neither is it to lash out. The verse also indicates that we will suffer.

Faithful is the key. Faithful and obedient.

Thank you for what you have posted.


EDIT: added "Faithful and obedient."

L
Leo_Grace


HeartSong wrote:
Hello Leo,

I appreciate what you have written, but have a few questions. Was Jesus resisting the false teachings or was He merely being faithful the what the Father was having Him to do? I do like the focus on "faithful" - for that is what we are to do - focus on Him, but this would also require our not focusing on others as the "enemy."

In both verses that you quoted we are told to resist [u]the devil[/u] - the devil would have us to devour one another. in 1 Peter 5:8-9 we are told to "stand firm." To stand firm is not to fall back, neither is it to lash out. The verse also indicates that we will suffer.

Faithful is the key.

Thank you for what you have posted.

Dear HeartSong,

We are not really in disagreement, for I know that the war to be fought by believers is spiritual and not physical. Even our weapons are of the Spirit:

[i]Eph 6:11-17 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.[/i]

But we cannot ignore the fact that the enemy will use physical men just like us to destroy God's kingdom. And when they speak falsehood, we must declare the truth and not just sit by because we think resistance is not for us.

In answer to your first question, Jesus resisted false teachings because he was faithful - he was a fighter for God in a very forceful way. He was not coy about calling a spade a spade, and he "attacked" with forceful words and colorful language:

[i]Mt 12:34 [color=CC3300]You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.[/color]

Mt 23:27 [color=CC3300]“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean."[/color][/i]

When Jesus saw how men were turning his Father's temple into a marketplace, his faith made him take strong physical action that could even be called violent action:

[i]Mt 21:12-13 Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. [color=CC3300]“It is written,”[/color] he said to them, [color=CC3300]“ ‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’ but you are making it a ‘den of robbers.’'"[/color].[/i]

As you said earlier, "[b]Faithful is the key[/b]." Our focus should be on being faithful, because then the Spirit can move in us to give us the right words and the right actions to take in any situation.

Trying too much to always be inoffensive and calm in all situations may actually preempt the leading of the Spirit. I believe there are times when the Spirit wants us to be loud, and red-faced, and furious; there are times when we can be called to take physical action. In faithfulness, Jesus did all of these "offensive" things, yet he was without sin.

In Christ's Love,
Leo

H
HeartSong

Deleted

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hello all…

This topic has been discussed many times in the past here on SermonIndex, and with little consensus ever being reached other than that infamous “[i]we can agree to disagree[/i]” formula. It is certainly a “touchy” issue for some believers.

Someone once mentioned that God never changes. I often ponder any precedent in which God has ordained [i]war[/i]…[i]killing[/i]…or [i]resistance[/i]. Well, we certainly know that He has done so in regard to His chosen people under the old covenant. Yet, there are also instances in which God “raised up nations” for His purpose (even against Israel).

Someone mentioned that there is often a civic argument in regard to a “just [u]war[/u].” While the merits of this argument can be countered by those who deplore any sort of involvement whatsoever, I think that there is a stronger argument in regard to a “just [u]cause[/u].” Is there EVER any just cause or reason for which a person would “resist” another?

In such a discussion, someone will inevitably bring up the question, “[i]Would you defend your wife or children from an attacker[/i]?” Even the most ardent non-resistance brethren will often question their prerogative in such cases. One brother might ask if it is a “sin” to resist an attacker in this case. Another brother might ask if it is a “sin” to NOT resist someone who is attacking their wife, children or anyone else under their care.

This, of course, is a rather extreme hypothetical scenario. Yet the principle remains. The underlying question often revolves around any sort of Scriptural prohibition to “righteous” defense, or limitations or prohibitions of any sort of government involvement whatsoever.

One of the issues that I have with the “non-resistant” or “non-involvement” teaching is that most of the advocates are guilty of resisting…but not in a physical sense. Words can be just as powerfully effective as a weapon – or even worse. I have seen arguments where the “non-resistant” party almost became rhetorically brutal with those brethren who disagreed with their perspective.

I am also disheartened by many of the charges against those who feel a liberty to serve in the military, to vote, to serve in a government job, or to even petition the government in regard to a matter. Some have gone so far as to consider it “bowing down” to the governments or patterns of the world (or even Satan). Yet those of us who feel such a liberty are doing this with a clean conscience before God.

I was thinking about this last night. Remember the parable of the unjust judge? In Luke 18:1-8, Jesus tells a story about a widow who petitioned a judge who did not fear God or really care about men. This woman persistently petitioned this judge to answer her request. In the KJV, she asks the judge to “avenge me of mine adversary” (verse 3). The NASB words the widow’s request as, “[i]Give me legal protection from my opponent[/i].” The NIV words the widow’s words as, “[i]Grant me justice against my adversary[/i].” Regardless of the wording, the point is that the woman is petitioning a non-believing judge who sits in a secular government.

We have other instances in which believers also are involved in government. The Old Testament is filled with individuals who were involved or attempted to exert influence in government…including secular governments. Moses, Joseph, Esther, Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and others were involved in one way or another. In the New Testament, we read of men who were also involved with or attempted to influence government process or government leaders. John the Baptist was arrested for telling Herod, an unbelieving gentile king, that his divorce and subsequent remarriage was “unlawful.” In the book of Acts, we read about Paul the Apostle invoking his Roman citizenship in order to avoid a beating (Acts 22:25). Later, Paul used the Roman legal system via his “appeal unto Caesar” in order to take the Gospel to Rome and to Caesar’s household (Acts 25:10-12; Philippians 4:25).

While these were civil liberties that were taken by John and Paul, we could also examine whether or not a believer has any [i]obligation[/i] to a secular government. Paul, living during a godless empire governed from Rome, stated in Romans chapter 13 that government is “ordained by God” (Romans 13:1). Going further, Paul writes, “[i] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. [/i]” (Romans 13:2). Those are tough words for a people who are supposed to be “non-involved.” In fact, in this same passage, Paul calls secular leaders “God’s ministers” explaining this is WHY we pay taxes (Romans 13:6). Jesus echoes this same thought when he instructs us to “render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s” (Matthew 22:21). Was Jesus talking about money? I don’t think so, because Rome already owned and printed all of the money. It is possible that Jesus was talking about the provisions necessary to keep the government operating.

Peter continues this sort of instruction. Immediately after instructing us to live as “strangers and pilgrims,” Peter tells us to “submit” ourselves to EVERY ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake – including those from kings and governors (II Peter 2:13). Why? “[i] For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men : As free, and not using your liberty for a cloak of maliciousness, but as the servants of God[/i]” (II Peter 2:15-16). He finishes by admonishing believers to “[i]Fear God. Honor the king[/i]” (II Peter 2:17).

This sentiment is echoed throughout the New Testament. Colossians 1:16 states that all authorities were “created by Him and for Him.” In Titus 3:1, we are instructed to be “subject to principalities and powers” and to “be obedient.” Now, this doesn’t mean that we, as believers, are not permitted to petition a government. We already have seen that believers such as Joseph, Moses, Esther, Daniel, John the Baptist, Peter and Paul attempted to exert influence upon government and/or rulers. In addition, this isn’t an instruction to obey a government that tells us to partake in matters of sin.

So, what about military service (the central dilemma in this thread)? Are believers prohibited to join the military or serve as soldiers in a nation’s defense? Now, we know that one of the Ten Commandments states, “[i]Thou shalt not kill[/i]” (Exodus 20:13). In Hebrew, the word used for “kill” is [i]ratsach[/i]. This is translated as “murder.” This invokes a question of [i]intent[/i]. Is this a prohibition for [i]self-defense[/i]. Well, in the years following the Ten Commandments, plenty of people continued to serve in the military…and even defend their families, homes and nations. Never once is it hinted that such a “righteous” defense made such individuals guilty of breaking this commandment. In fact, the same God who commanded men not to “kill” also instructed men to kill by the sword. God instructed people to kill men, women, children and even babies! In fact, God even raised up secular armies against His own chosen people. Now, the Old Testament Law contained specific “eye for eye and tooth for tooth” instructions. Yet this law was not applied to soldiers or those who acted in defense. Yet, as is often pointed out, this was under the Old Covenant.

So, is it possible for a person to be a “good soldier” under the new covenant?

In the New Testament, there are many instances of soldiers coming up to men of God. Yet, in no instances are they told to stop serving in the armed forces or to “conscientiously object” to service. When the soldiers asked John the Baptist, “[i]What shall we do[/i],” John didn’t tell them to quit serving. He instructed them, “[i] Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages [/i]” (Luke 3:14 NASB). When a certain Roman centurion came to Jesus on behalf of one of his servants, Jesus didn’t tell the man to choose another profession. Rather, Jesus said, “[i] Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel [/i]” (Matthew 8:10) and then told him, “[i] Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee [/i]” (Matthew 8:13).

Likewise, there is another centurion mentioned in the book of Acts. In Acts chapter 10, Cornelius, an Italian centurion, was called a “devout man, and one that feared God with all his house” and one who “prayed to God alway” (Acts 10:2). The Bible continues by saying that Cornelius had a soldier under him who was also “devout” (Acts 10:7). This centurion was given a vision in which an angel of God told him, “[i]Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God [/i]” (Acts 10:4). The angel told him to go to Simon Peter [b]“[i]he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do[/i]”[/b] (Acts 10:6). What did Peter say to Cornelius? More importantly, what did Peter NOT say to Cornelius? He didn’t tell him to leave the armed forces of Rome.

In other words, there didn’t seem to be any instruction from John the Baptist or any of the apostles (or even Jesus for that matter) regarding a prohibition of military service. This wasn’t limited to military service either. Jesus met several members of the government – such as tax collectors. Our Lord proclaimed that salvation had come to the house of Zacchaeus (that wee little man). However, it wasn’t because Zacchaeus had quit his government job. Rather, Zacchaeus was simply going to make restitution for any theft that he had been guilty of.

Many of the non-resistant brethren base their stances upon Jesus’ instructions to turn the other cheek when they are struck by an evil person (Matthew 5:38-40). This is often seen as a primer for Christian conduct. Yet, this seems to be more about “self defense” in regard to the persecution of believers for their faith than other forms of resistance. Remember, the Lord told us to “resist not EVIL” (Matthew 5:39). Furthermore, Jesus didn’t stop there. He instructed his listeners to “Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away” (Matthew 5:42). Now, is this a mandate in EVERY circumstance? Or are there circumstances in which we are not supposed to give? The New Testament indicates that one of the highest callings of a man is to provide for his family. If an evil person were to ask for the food by which we are to feed our families, are we supposed to give it (and let our families go hungry)? No, our responsibility is to our families [u]first[/u] – or we are “[i]worse than an infidel[/i]” (I Timothy 5:8). Is it possible that our call to not resist an evil person is also limited to SELF defense rather than in defense of a higher calling (such as our families or the weak and helpless)?

There are plenty of things to consider in this matter. Like I said, it has been discussed at length (many times) in the past here on SermonIndex. I, for one, do not think that it is “cut and dry.” Yes, we know that our “weapons” against the enemy are not “carnal.” We know that, in our spiritual struggles are not against “flesh and blood.” Yet I think that it would be futile to argue that this amounts to a complete prohibition against military service or the physical defense of someone else. After all, even though God promises to take care of us, we are still required to work and provide for ourselves, our families and the work of God.

Anyway, these are simply a few things that we might want to consider in this type of discussion.

:-)

H
hmmhmm

We are not called to be non-resistant, we are called to be faithful and to do whatever that faithfulness entails. This could mean actively resisting evil men and false teachers. It could mean "overturning the tables of merchants" who have turned God's temple into a marketplace.

its true, faithfulness may meen any of those things, but Jesus never shot or killed anyone who disagreed with his beliefs, teachings or his government. We are called to follow HIM. We ought walk like HE walked. And when i look at his life, and I admit my light and understanding only goes so far, but i can never see Jesus pick up a gun and shot anyone for a disagreement in religion or how nations should be behaving. I think of what Zac Poonen says in one sermon, he speaks about what kingdom we belong to, and he says when we fight for any earthly thing, with our wifes, neighbours or a brother or sister in church we are of this worlds kingdom, when ever we fight for earthly things, we are of this worlds kingdom.

Jesus was plain when he said, "if my kingdom was of this world...."

S
sermonindex

ccchhhrrriiisss, very good post. I am glad you have the patience and capabilty to print longer posts with balanced look at the subject.

Me i always try to say more with less which dosen't always work. Again, Good Job!

L
Leo_Grace


thingsabove wrote:
ccchhhrrriiisss, very good post. I am glad you have the patience and capabilty to print longer posts with balanced look at the subject.

Me i always try to say more with less which dosen't always work. Again, Good Job!

I agree, Chris, that was a very good post. Thanks.

R
rainydaygirl

Hey
I read this article and it gave me a some things to really, seriously, think about. Thought I would share some of the parts that stood out most to me.

with care
rdg

____


God said that we are to “have nothing to do with civilian affairs” because our only goal is to please God. There is nothing in common between 1) killing the daddies of young children, or the sons and daughters of parents, and sending most of them straight to hell without the Good News…and 2) “turn the other cheek when you are struck on one.” These two are totally incompatible, of course.

I’m not suggesting some “militant” anti-anything prudish obsession, as you WELL know. But, great caution with our young ones, as well as exercising wisdom with our OWN hearts is very much in order. When someone gets “killed”—even in a movie—we really OUGHT to protect our own hearts and “identify” for a millisecond that any real death is another soul in hell in most cases (“FEW will be those who find Eternal Life”). WE must not allow our own hearts to be hardened by violence or death, either. We need to take charge of our own hearts and minds to RECOGNIZE what is happening, and what death means, rather than being sucked into the violence and hatred and emptiness of the world.

H
HeartSong

I was just reading in Amos and ran across this:

Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Edom, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he did pursue his brother with the sword, and did cast off all pity, and his anger did tear perpetually, and he kept his wrath for ever: But I will send a fire upon Teman, which shall devour the palaces of Bozrah. - Amos 1:11-12

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi rainydaygirl…

God said that we are to “have nothing to do with civilian affairs” because our only goal is to please God.

Actually, I don’t think that this is what the Lord actually said. II Timothy 2:3-4 addresses the issue: “[i]Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. [b]No man that warreth[/b] entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier[/i].” Notice the emboldened portion of this passage. In my view, this particular verse is in regard to the duty to which the Lord called us. The NASB calls it “active service.” There is no prohibition about being a soldier. It doesn’t even say that a soldier [i]never[/i] entangles in the affairs of this life – but only while actually “warring.” In fact, the Scriptures say that a believing husband WILL concern himself with the affairs of this life (I Corinthians 7:32-35).

Interestingly, that same passage in II Timothy 2 actually continues with two more anecdotes, including a runner who must run in a way to win the prize…and a farmer who must obtain his crops first. Now, does this say that a runner MUST always run to win a prize? Must a farmer always try to get his crops before everyone else? Rather, I think that these anecdotes are meant to serve as examples for endurance by focusing on the guidance of the Lord during times of trouble. In fact, that same chapter lists some traps and snares that can derail us – and most of them have to do with the tongue (silly arguments, debates, godless chatter, etc…).

There is nothing in common between 1) killing the daddies of young children, or the sons and daughters of parents, and sending most of them straight to hell without the Good News…and 2) “turn the other cheek when you are struck on one.” These two are totally incompatible, of course.

Yes, and there is also a big difference between being purposed for the “killing the daddies of young children” and serving in the armed forces of the nation into which God has placed us. Contrary to popular thought, the ultimate goal of the US military is NOT to go around KILLING innocent men, women and children. In fact, it is quite the opposite! A soldier is meant to DEFEND. He is not supposed to “shoot first, ask questions later.” Rather, whenever possible, a soldier is supposed to detain the enemy (and NOT to kill them). In fact, the US military has a reputation around the world in regard to their treatment of enemy combatants. While there were a few suspected terrorists who were interrogated using questionable methods of possible torture, the US has historically treated prisoners of war very well. In fact, many historians believe that this helped many German soldiers quickly surrender to the United States during the [u]First[/u] World War. The Germans reasoned that if they surrendered to the United States forces, they would remain safe and have their physical needs met.

Anyway, I just wanted to interject this. I have heard many good brothers and sisters quote the aforementioned verse as a clear cut directive from God to avoid military service (or ANY sort of involvement with the “things of this world” for that matter). As a newly married man (well, for about two years), I know what it means to be “concerned with the affairs of this world” (I Corinthians 7:32-33). Just like there is no prohibition to marriage simply because I must concern myself with looking after the needs of my wife and future children, I don’t see a prohibition toward military service either. I hope that this makes a little sense.

Like you, I am praying for clarity in this matter (like other matters). Right now, I do feel a "clear conscience" in such things. I trust that the Lord will direct me (and all of us) as He sees fit.

:-)

R
rainydaygirl

Hey Chris

Actually for me personally God has already settled this in my mind and heart that I am not to be about the things of this world, whether it be voting or military service. Not using any scripture to avoid anything, just know from what He as shown me in the Word that is not for me. On that issue we will just have to disagree:)

When I mentioned I was thinking over some things I was thinking about the part "that people being killed and sent to hell." and this part, "WE must not allow our own hearts to be hardened by violence or death, either. We need to take charge of our own hearts and minds to RECOGNIZE what is happening, and what death means, rather than being sucked into the violence and hatred and emptiness of the world."

I was thinking that its kind of strange that today I might be sending letters to a person in china trying to share the good news with them of Jesus, but tomorrow if the country I live in decides to go to war with China then I might find myself pointing a gun at that same person ready to kill them? Just thinking about how those two things reconcile themselves one with the other??
Also was thinking and wondering if we really do realize what death means? In today's world of so called entertainment violence is no big deal.
Anyway that's probably a topic for a whole other thread:)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and allowing me to do so also.

with care
rdg

G
ginnyrose

This subject was discussed at length, led by the late Pastorfrin. It can be found here:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?forum=35&topic_id=15338&viewmode=thread&order=1

ginnyrose

G
ginnyrose

What follows is the testimony of one Mennonite
{Mennonite Church U.S.A.)
I am a pacifist because I am a Mennonite.

Pacifism is NOT Biblical non-resistance. Pacifism is secularized non-resistance. The fact that this declaration was written by a member of the Mennonite Church, USA proves the point, exactly.

Pacifism as practiced by the Mennonite Church USA will have them organizing protest rallies at military bases; they will work to influence government policies; they will work to bring about political peace between countries while ignoring the spiritual dimension. They will work to bring about 'justice' for oppressed people apart from the gospel. They work hard to fight prejudices while practicing it in gross ways on the other hand. Yes, the Mennonite Church, USA practices pacifism.

(Many years ago "Christianity Today" printed an article detailing the VORP (Victims - Offenders- Reconciliation Program) - program. It sounded very good and interesting. I called VORP in CA and talked with a lady about it and asked about the spiritual dimension of the program. She let me now quick they do not minister to the spiritual needs of the victim or offender although she did admit that could happen but that is not the goal of the program. AT that point in time VORP was operating under the liberal segment of the Mennonite Church.)

Mennonite Church,USA will also have within their ranks practicing homosexuals; denying the virgin birth. In short, it is a terrible disgrace, to equate that pacifism with Biblical non-resistance.

So, I adhere to Biblical non-resistance. I must say that among the conservative 'peace churches' there is a wide variation in how it translates to everyday living. Some folks will vote, serve on juries while others will shun it completely. The discussion among 'peace church' adherents is similar to the discussion that follows Calvinism/Arminianism - lots of discussion, but little agreement. However, folks know there is wiggle room in the non-specifics but it is in the context of serving in the military in which agreement occurs.

Pastorfrin wrote a lot about non-resistance in the "Let's Talk About Peace" thread. I strongly urge any, all, to carefully study that thread.

ginnyrose

C
chapel


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:


Many of the non-resistant brethren base their stances upon Jesus’ instructions to turn the other cheek when they are struck by an evil person (Matthew 5:38-40). This is often seen as a primer for Christian conduct. Yet, this seems to be more about “self defense” in regard to the persecution of believers for their faith than other forms of resistance. Remember, the Lord told us to “resist not EVIL” (Matthew 5:39). Furthermore, Jesus didn’t stop there. He instructed his listeners to “Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away” (Matthew 5:42). Now, is this a mandate in EVERY circumstance? Or are there circumstances in which we are not supposed to give? The New Testament indicates that one of the highest callings of a man is to provide for his family. If an evil person were to ask for the food by which we are to feed our families, are we supposed to give it (and let our families go hungry)? No, our responsibility is to our families first – or we are “worse than an infidel” (I Timothy 5:8). Is it possible that our call to not resist an evil person is also limited to SELF defense rather than in defense of a higher calling (such as our families or the weak and helpless)?


ccchhhrrriiisss,

Seems you went all around the scripture on non resistance but left out the non resistance part.

Here is the scripture with an explanation.

Matthew 5:38-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. [41] And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. [42] Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
[43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Taken from pages 78-81 of The Kingdom that Turned the World Upside Down © David Bercot. Used by permission. Copies can be obtained from Scroll Publishing Co., P. O. Box 122, Amberson, PA 17210 or see their website at www.scrollpublishing.com.

But don’t Jesus’ words apply merely to private retribution–not to state-sponsored actions?

Some Christians maintain that if we pay back evil for evil as individuals, it’s wrong. However, if we do it under state authority, it doesn’t violate Jesus’ teaching. This argument makes me think of a pamphlet that Adin Ballou wrote, entitled “How Many Men Are Necessary to Change a Crime into a Virtue?” In it, he asked:
“How many does it take to annul the commandments of God, and render something lawful that He has forbidden? How many does it take to metamorphose wickedness into righteousness? One man must not kill. If he does, it is murder. Two, ten, one hundred men, acting on their own responsibility, must not kill. If they do, it is still murder.
“But a state or nation may kill as many as they please, and it is not murder. It is just, necessary, commendable and right. Only get enough people to agree to it, and the butchery of myriads of human beings is perfectly innocent. But how many does it take? This is the question.

“Just so with theft, robbery, burglary, and all other crimes. Kidnapping is a great crime in one man, or a very few men only. But a whole nation can commit it, and the act becomes not only innocent, but highly honorable. So a whole nation can rob on the largest scale, and perpetrate burglary on an entire city by martial power, without crime. They can do all these things with impunity, and call on the ministers of religion to say prayers for them. Verily there is magic in numbers! The sovereign multitude can out-legislate the Almighty, at least in their own conceit. But how many does it take?”

If the state orders me to worship idols, would that make it right? In other words, is it wrong for me to worship idols as an individual, but perfectly right to worship idols if I do it under the authority of the state? Is it wrong for me to practice divination as an individual, but acceptable if I do it under state authority? Is it wrong for me to commit adultery as an individual, but not a sin if the state orders me to do so? Is divorce wrong for me as an individual, but perfectly legitimate if the state authorizes me to divorce my spouse?

Or suppose a Christian lives in a country where the government orders women to obtain abortions for the good of the country. Perhaps the country is overcrowded, and the government thinks the most feasible way to end the overcrowding is by reducing the birth rate. Does that make it lawful for a Christian woman to kill her baby through an abortion? If not, why is it different when the same government orders its citizens to kill others in a war?

When Jesus gave His commandments on nonresistance and loving our enemies, did He make any distinction between private actions and state-sponsored actions? Not at all. In fact, His teaching was supplanting an Old Testament law that itself pertained to state actions, not private ones. As you remember, Jesus began His message on nonresistance by saying, “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you not to resist an evil person” (Mt. 5:39). Now, where had his listeners heard “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth?” They had heard it from the Mosaic Law, where it appears three times.

The first passage where that expression occurs is in Exodus, which says, “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot” (Exod. 21:22-24). Please note that the judges were involved in this action; it was not private vengeance.

The second passage is found in Leviticus, concerning an incident where a man with an Egyptian father and an Israelite mother had blasphemed God. When the Israelites inquired of the Lord as to what they should do, God replied, “Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall certainly stone him. …Whoever kills a man shall surely be put to death. …If a man causes disfigurement of his neighbor, as he has done, so shall it be done to him–fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; as he has caused disfigurement of a man, so shall it be done to him. …Then Moses spoke to the children of Israel; and they took outside the camp him who had cursed, and stoned him with stones” (Lev. 24:16-23). Is this passage talking about private actions? Hardly! The whole congregation of Israel was to be involved in meeting out the punishment.

The final passage is in Deuteronomy: “If a false witness rises against any man to testify against him of wrongdoing, then both men in the controversy shall stand before the Lord, before the priests and the judges who serve in those days. And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother, then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to this brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you. And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you. Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot” (Deut. 19:16-21). Once again, this passage does not refer to a private form of justice. Both the priests and judges were involved.


So the context of Jesus’ teaching on nonresistance concerned national and judicial retribution, not private vengeance. After all, that’s what the “eye for an eye” standard was all about. And Jesus’ teachings replaced that standard.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi chapel...

ccchhhrrriiisss,

Seems you went all around the scripture on non resistance but left out the non resistance part.

Here is the scripture with an explanation.

I thought that I covered that particular passage. I didn't type it out in its entirety, but only because that "turn the other cheek" portion is the central portion that is often commented. However, I wanted to bring out some thoughts on that entire portion as a whole.

I have seen people who consider themselves non-resistant after reading the "turn the other cheek" portion of that passage. However, I just wonder if they are just as willing to embrace the next portions? If I (or any believer or non-believer) were to ask you to give me ALL of the money that you have, ALL of the food in your house, and to throw in EVERYTHING inside of your house (including, of course, the cloak)...would that fulfill what Jesus was saying in Matthew 5:40-42? Jesus said, "[i]And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away[/i]." However, would giving everything that you have to some person (saved or unsaved) in order to fulfill this passage ALSO prevent you to fulfill your command to take care of the needs of your family?

I tried to cover this issue in the long post that I wrote at 2009/9/18 11:31.

I believe in [i]personal[/i] non-resistance. When I was in high school (and shortly after having met the Lord), I was confronted by one of the guys on the high school basketball team. Our morning practice was almost finished. As I was getting ready to go back to the locker room, a rather large player asked me, "[i]So, I heard you became a Christian[/i]?" I explained to him that I had met the Lord during the summer. He continued, "[i]So, you really believe all of that stuff in the Bible[/i]?" I said yes. He went on, "[i]So, if I were to slap you, you would turn the other cheek[/i]?"

I thought about it, and said yes. He immediately slapped me...hard. And you know what? I turned my cheek. You know what? He then slapped me again...hard. I didn't know what to do, so I turned back to the original cheek. He slapped me several more times. By this time, some of the other players (and some of the cheerleaders who were practicing on the side of the court) started to urge this guy to stop. By this time, I didn't know what to do. So, I just looked him in the eye and said, "[i]Mark, Jesus really does love you[/i]."

I quickly went into the bathroom next to the locker room in order to clean the blood off of my face. I was trembling and in tears. I wasn't afraid of this guy. I wasn't even embarrassed that this took place in front of the entire varsity basketball team (and others too). However, I was trembling because I didn't really know what I was supposed to do. After praying, I showered and went to my next class.

I wouldn't really see the fruit of that experience until much later. One night following a basketball game, our team was on the bus for the three and a half hour drive back home. Usually, people would just listen to music or sleep. I had a set of headphones on and was listening to some Keith Green music. One of the guys tapped me on my shoulder and asked what I was listening to. I let him hear one of the songs ([i]Your Love Broke Through[/i] -- which, like nearly all of Keith Green's music, is hardly "modern" or something that anyone would even want to listen to). After he listened to it, he started to ask me some questions about the song...and the Lord.

Over the course of that trip, I was able to share my testimony to the entire team and the coaches. They all knew that I was a smart guy, and they were wondering how I went from an agnostic to a "walking Bible" so quickly. I told them about how I came to Christ...and how much I loved knowing Him. I told them that I actually KNOW and talk with the Creator of the universe. I can't really remember the rest of the things that I talked about (because I had only known the Lord for a few months). However, the Spirit of the Lord was there. I eventually asked if anyone wanted to know the Lord like I did. The first person to raise his hand...was Mark.

This was the same guy who slapped me multiple times on that basketball court. Before we arrived back to our high school, I was able to pray with every single player on my team as they said that they wanted to know the Lord. Even one of the coaches had me pray with him! Even though it was dark on that bus, you could tell that a few of those guys had tears in their eyes. I asked the head coach if he wanted to know the Lord too. He looked uncomfortable and said, "[i]I'm not ready yet, Chris[/i]." Why am I saying this? Because, yes, I understand the power of non-resistance.

That being said, I also understand the call that God has on my life to help those in need and to provide for my family. If someone broke into my home while I was present and tried to physically harm my wife, sister, mother or a child, I would do what I can to resist them. I would do this with a clear conscience. Why? I believe that this is part of my calling as a husband, brother, son and (eventually) father. Like I tried to indicate earlier, I believe that some calling supersedes others. If someone were to ask for all of your belongings, your first call is to provide for your household. You are also supposed to avoid debt. Thus, you can give to someone who asks...but you are bound by a covenant to care for the needs of your family. Otherwise, you are WORSE than an infidel.

As for serving in the military...or the police department...I stand by the thoughts that I wrote in my earlier post. I believe that it is possible to be a "good soldier" and a true believer at the same time. Like I said, no one in the Old Testament was ever prosecuted as a violator of the commandment that says THOU SHALT NOT KILL if they were defending the weak, protecting their family or serving in the military.

I hope that my thoughts about this issue come across correctly. I am not trying to [i]convince[/i] anyone that "I am right and everyone else is wrong" (or anything like that). Rather, I just want to illustrate the thoughts that have gone through my mind when I am considering this subject. I don't believe that it is as "cut and dry" as some would paint it to be.

I think that there is wisdom in having a clear conscience in this matter (Acts 24:16; I Corinthians 4:1-5; I Timothy 3:9; II Timothy 1:3; I Peter 3:15-16). Even though I may disagree, I certainly respect those who have arrived at a different opinion with their own integrity and a clear conscience...and I pray that this feeling is mutual.

:-)

R
rainydaygirl

Hey Ginnyrose
thank you for the link to the other thread. I will read through it.

with care
rdg

H
HeartSong

Earlier this evening I went for a walk and was listening to the book of John. As I listened to chapters 17 and 18 I became more convinced than ever that we are not to rely on the systems of this world.

John 17:14,15,16 - I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. . . . John 17:21,22,23 - That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. . . . John 18:36,37 - Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Immediately after setting my heart upon this I turned to head home. For some reason, I chose a different route than usual and walked along the highway so that I could return through the park. As I entered from the North I ran into two young men leaving the park. While this was somewhat unusual (their reason for being there was not evident) I didn't pay much attention to the matter. We exchanged pleasantries and I continued on.

As I walked deeper into the park I noticed a group of people gathered around the picnic table in the distance. As I neared the picnic table a group of about eight young men broke away from the table and began to walk away. I said hello but they only mumbled a response. There were four young men still seated at the table and as I walked by and I lifted my hand in greeting. Only one of them responded.

It is highly unusual for anyone to be at this park, let alone 12 young men and I walked away wondering. As I left the park I noted that the cars were from different counties. At some point it dawned on me that this was probably a drug deal of some sort so I decided to stop by and bring the matter to the attention of the local sheriff that lives across the street.

All of this to say that no sooner had I determined the truth to be one thing, and the enemy tricked me into doing the other. My heart is still heavy over the matter and I have added these 12 young men to my list of "assigned people" that I am to pray for.


EDIT: I sound like Eve in the above statement. Actually I was tested in the matter and I failed. After knowing the truth, I did not hold to the truth, so therefore I sinned.

L
Leo_Grace

Dear HeartSong,

Let me get this right... are you trying to tell us that a true Christian should not inform law officers about a possible crime because "we are not of this world"?

If you had seen those 12 young men beating and robbing an innocent person in the park, would you have preferred to just ignore it and walk by because you are a Christian and "not of this world"?

If this is what you are thinking, then you are grievously wrong. When you went out of your way to report a possible crime, you did the right thing! You showed love for your neighbors. You did what God wants us all to do. Otherwise, why would Jesus have commended the good Samaritan for getting involved and helping a stranger as an example for believers to follow?

[b]While we are alive on this earth, we are not only called to be in the world and part of the world, we are commanded to shine in the darkness so others can see their way.[/b]

Mt 5:14 [color=CC3300]“[b]You are the light of the world.[/b] A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. [b]In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven."[/b][/color]

How can we be ambassadors for Christ unless we participate in the affairs of the world?

2Co 5:20 "[b]We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us[/b]. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God."

The greatest commandment in Scripture is this:

Mt 22:37-40 Jesus replied: [color=CC3300]“ [b]‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[/b] This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: [b]‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[/b] All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”[/color]

All other instructions given in the Bible for believers to follow must bow in submission to this command. If the disputable concepts of "non-resistance" or "non-involvement" make you disobey the greatest commandment, then you have been deceived.

In Christ's Love,
Leo

H
HeartSong

God can do all things. He knows everything that has happened and He knows everything that is going to happened. He knows what is in the hearts of each of those young men. The law is limited to that which it can see. It can only come in after the fact and relies upon human interpretation. It is subject to human error.

My appeal is to be to the Lord. He can stop it all in a spit second. He has given me the power to stop evil by simply speaking a word in the name of Jesus. All that I must do is believe and come forth with the Word.

Those boys are in bondage. They are the slaves of Satan. My turning them over to the authorities will only serve to drive them deeper into bondage. My "turning them in" further empowers the powers of darkness for in so doing I put myself in agreement with their system of doing things. My praying for the boys defeats the powers of darkness for it is out of love that my prayers go forth and it is only by light that darkness is dispelled.


If you had seen those 12 young men beating and robbing an innocent person in the park, would you have preferred to just ignore it and walk by because you are a Christian and "not of this world"?

I would step forward in His Name and am willing to die doing it.

G
ginnyrose

HeartSong,

My heart gasped when I read your post.

Sister, God has given us the civil government to assist the community to maintain law and order. This is their job and as Christians we are to help them make this job easier. True, our security does not depend on how well they do it - our security is with God. There is no doubt He does protect his children in supernatural ways, ways in which we may be unaware of.

I just got done doing grand jury duty this week. We looked at evidence, gathered by surveillance cameras, of drug deals. And all I can say is that if you did come across drug dealing, you are lucky you never saw it exchange hands. God must have been with you, protecting you. As a non-resistant Christian, I would encourage you to report questionable activity to the law. But, then again, how do you know but what he is not in cahoots with them? {{SIGH}} Perhaps, the better thing would be to ask the LORD what your response should be.

Your exchanging pleasantries was so very good, God bless you.

I am still wondering what you did that makes you think you sinned?

My dear, I can hardly get over you seeing this group of young males...and you still walked by them! OK, I am getting skittish (the DA warned us of this happening), and likely you did what I would have given the same situation ....

Blessings,
ginnyrose

G
ginnyrose

I would also encourage you to go read a testimony I posted I posted in the "Articles" forum. Here is the link: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=30264&forum=34&4

This is the testimony of a young male who did alternative service during the Vietnam war era. (Many think that if you are a conscientious objector you do no service of any kind to your fellow men..WRONG! They do alternative service, some kind of humanitarian work, like work in hospitals.) The author of that article is known to my brother-in-law. He worked at the same facility as did 'Peachy'. In fact, that experience in the hospital birthed in my BIL a desire to enter the medical field and he fulfilled that dream in 2008 when he graduated from nursing school at the age of 58!

ginnyrose

L
Leo_Grace

Dear HeartSong,

You said:

My "turning them in" further empowers the powers of darkness for in so doing I put myself in agreement with their system of doing things.

I understand now that you feel that you betrayed your faith in God by reporting a suspicious situation to the sheriff. Why would you feel that way? Are all governments and established social institutions evil in your sight? Is it not possible for God to use these for his divine purpose? Is our God too weak to influence the governments of men? I think not! Those authorities are established by God, and we are instructed to be subject to them, even as we are all subject to the final authority of God.

[i]Ro 13:1-2 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.[/i]

Ask yourself this: Will you bring glory to God by rebelling against a system intended to bring peace and order in your neighborhood? In the eyes of your neighbors who are not yet believers, will God be honored by your rejection of the police? Or will you be making God a joke in their eyes by your actions?

If everyone in your neighborhood refused to report crime to the police, you will quickly find yourself living in the midst of a haven for criminals. Is that how you show love for your neighbors?

We are Christ's ambassadors in this world. We are to be the salt of the earth; the shining lights on a hill; we are to be players IN the world, but not OF the world. God did not call us to be scoffers and hecklers who refuse to play and then criticize from the sidelines.

In Christ's Love,
Leo

C
chapel

NON-RESISTANCE
by Harry Bethel
BethelMinistries.com

There are only a few New Testament commandments about which Jesus warned that whoever breaks them and teaches others to do so would be called least in the kingdom of heaven.

Our Lord said, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt. 5:19). What are these commandments? Some of them are clear commandments concerning non-resistance: "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain....Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you....For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? (Mt. 5:38-46)."

Many Christians, including church leaders, ignore these commands and Jesus' warning to not break them or teach others to break them. In these last days of apostasy we are like God's people spoken of in the book of Judges when "every man did that which was right in his own eyes." Many Dispensationalists rationalize and say that was the sermon on the mount and does not apply to us. Let God be true, but every man a liar (Rm. 3:4). The apostle Paul said that the armor of God (in this dispensation) is "truth," "righteousness, "the gospel of peace," "faith," salvation," and "the word of God" (Eph. 6:14-17). Inspired by the Spirit of Christ, Paul wrote, "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal...." (2 Cor. 10:3-4). In other words Paul is saying that though we live in the world we do not wage war as the world does. "Recompense to no man evil for evil....avenge not yourselves, but overcome evil with good" (Rm. 12:17-21). And in Ephesians 6:12 he said, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood."

Most Christians today do not accept the New Testament doctrine of non-resistance. Many refuse to see the clear teachings on this matter, or if they do see this truth they do not apply it to their lives. Under the Old Covenant God's people were not non-resistant to their enemies. But under the New Covenant we have a much higher calling than the Old Testament saints.

The term "non-resistance" comes from the words of Jesus when He commanded, "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil" (Mt. 5:39). The context clearly shows that our Lord is speaking of not resisting an evil person. This in no way means that we are not to resist the temptations to sin, because, of course, all of Scripture is against that and can be summed up in the inspired words of James, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you" (James 4:7).

Scriptural non-resistance is not pacifism. Worldly pacifists primarily oppose war but will march, protest, picket, and obstruct the flow of pedestrian traffic, etc. A pacifist, while opposing war, would not necessarily abstain from going to court against a neighbor or defending himself or his property if attacked by a robber, for example.

In the Old Dispensation God at times commanded His people to kill their enemies. The calling of those saints certainly did not include non-resistance as it does under the New (and better) Covenant.

Jesus and His earthly ministry was the epitome of non-resistance, even submitting to suffering and death of the cross from which He could have delivered Himself by calling thousands of angels (Mt. 26:53). When the men came to arrest Jesus, Peter wielded his sword and cut off a man's ear. Jesus rebuked Peter and said, "They that take the sword shall perish with the sword" (Mt. 26:52). Later, Jesus told Pilate "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight...." (Jn. 18:36).

Jesus' kingdom still is not of this world and it is only the disobedient servants of His that fight, whether in personal combat or dropping an atomic bomb on thousands of men, women, and children.

Jesus and the disciples were traveling and planning to stay in a village of the Samaritans, but they were not welcomed. James and John said, 'Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of" (Lk. 9:51-55). Many professing Christians today do not know what manner of spirit they are of.

Many Christians say, "Well, if a robber comes into my house and tries to take off my stuff, am I supposed to just stand there and let him?" The answer is, Only if you want to obey the commandments of Jesus. Christians will often dream up some hypothetical situation in order to try to make the command of God of none effect. In the book of Luke is recorded more of Jesus' words on the subject: "And him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again" (6:29b-30).

Jesus said, "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal....for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" (Mt. 6:19-21).

God is sovereign. Ask him to protect you and your family with His holy angels. No one can even touch you or your family or your possessions without God's knowledge and Him allowing it.

Some would say, But what about going to war to defend this country and democracy? The simple answer is that our citizenship is in heaven. We are (or should be) merely sojourners---pilgrims and strangers. Could you imagine yourself being like Jesus and at the same time leveling rifle sights between the eyes of a Russian soldier who is also a Christian brother and blowing his brains out? And concerning democracy, the political environment in which God places us is of little eternal consequence. As citizens of heaven it is not our calling to defend any particular political ideology. The end result of democracy, which is rule by the people, is the right for women to kill their unborn children, the right to publish and distribute pornographic literature, the right to broadcast sensuous and immoral acts on television, the right for homosexuals to teach in the public schools and parade down the middle of the street (with a government-issued permit) carrying placards and flaunting their sin, ad nauseam. (Please read article titled Democracy---A Scriptural Perspective.)

Peter, inspired by the Spirit of Christ, wrote, "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps...who, when He was reviled, reviled not again; when He suffered, He threatened not; but committed himself to Him that judgeth righteously" (1 Pet. 2:21-23).

Shortly before He was crucified, the command of Jesus to His disciples to get a sword had to be done to fulfill the Old Testament prophecy that Jesus was numbered with transgressors. Jesus was falsely accused of many things including Him being a transgressor. All Old Testament prophecy was, or will be, fulfilled to the very letter. In Isaiah 53:12 the prophecy was that Jesus would be numbered with transgressors (plural). Only two of the disciples had swords which was enough to make it more than one transgressor, that is, transgressors in the sight of the Jews who falsely accused Jesus of many things. There was no need to have all the disciples to obtain a sword. When the disciples told Jesus, "Lord, look, here are two swords" He told them that that was enough. (Two disciples with one sword each, made it enough to fulfill the plural nature of the prophecy.)

If Jesus was teaching something different concerning non-resistance He would have ordered all the disciples to obtain a sword. But this was not at all what Jesus was doing. In fact, shortly after that when the multitude came, Peter, who was one of the two that had a sword, cut off the right ear of the slave of the high priest. Jesus strongly rebuked Peter and said, "Stop! No more of this" (Luke 22:51). Also, see John 18:10. Then Jesus healed the slave's ear. Concerning the same account, in Matthew 26:52 it is recorded that Jesus said to Peter, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword" (NASB). Later, recorded in the Revelation, the message is also clear---"if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints" (13:10 NASB).

Will you be one of those who are called least in the kingdom of heaven? My hope is that just the opposite will be true. Jesus said whosoever shall do and teach these commandments, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. But the real test is, Do you love Jesus enough to obey Him in everything including the commandment to be non-resistant?

Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments....He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings." (Jn. 14:15, 24).

S
sermonindex

GOD Bless you Chapel.

L
Leo_Grace

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ,

To all of you who cling so ardently to this doctrine of non-resistance as if it were the very heart of God's will, let me ask you this based on Harry Bethel's teaching....

Our Lord said, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt. 5:19). What are these commandments? Some of them are clear commandments concerning non-resistance: "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain...

[b]Teaching #1[/b]
Harry Bethel says Teaching #1 warns us to obey the least of God's commands:

Mt 5:19 [color=CC3300]Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.[/color]

[b]Teaching #10[/b]
Harry then points at the "eye for an eye" passage and tells us we must obey it literally...

Mt 5:38-42 [color=CC3300]“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."[/color]

[b]Teaching #5[/b]
If we are to accept Harry's approach to these scriptures as correct, then we must not pick and choose. We must also obey Teaching #5 exactly as it is stated because Teaching #5 comes before Teaching #10:

Mt 5:29 [color=CC3300]"If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."[/color]

If we are all honest with ourselves regarding personal sinfulness, and if we will obey these scriptures in the literal sense as Harry wants us to do, then we should have a lot of blind guides in our churches.

Have you obeyed this commandment? Or do you have eyes that NEVER lead you to sin?

Are we wrong not to blind ourselves to avoid sin? Or is Harry's approach to these verses incorrect?
--------------------------

(Edit) Addendum:

Here is another "command" that I believe belongs in the same category as those presented above:

Lk 14:26 [color=CC3300]“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple."[/color]

Are we, as believers of Christ, to take this teaching at face value and thus hate our very families? Or are we to draw meaning from it by looking at its companion verses to get the proper context, and view it as part of the total message of the bible?

Are we to disregard the whole forest and just focus on each tree as if each was separate and unrelated to the rest of the forest?

Scripture is not intended to be easy to understand. We need the power of the Holy Spirit to truly see God's meaning in each verse. When will we stop reading the bible on our own power and finally seek the Spirit's voice? When will we begin to rely more on the Spirit to guide us, rather than on other men like Harry who are well-meaning but prone to error like us?

I post these things out of love for all of you, not to win or lose any argument, but to simply seek the truth in God's Word.

In Christ's Love,
Leo

R
rainydaygirl

Leo
All I know is what the Holy Spirit has shown me, and led me to and that is not to be involved in worldly affairs. I do not vote, or write letters to congress, I don't hold up picket signs, and I have no plans to join the military or be a police person. None of these things have I ever felt a leading from the Holy Spirit to take part in. Having said that I do pray for those in government positions of authority that they would see their need for Jesus and walk daily in His will, and not their own.

If you, and Chris walk with a clear conscious in what you feel the Lord showing you then be faithful to walk that out. I am:-) There are probably many things that I feel led to walk in that you do not, perhaps that it just the place that the Lord has each of us at this time:-)

with care
rdg

G
ginnyrose

Excellent post, Chapel.

From my observation, non-resistance as a lifestyle is the hardest thing to live out. When someone does us wrong, we want to retaliate. Jesus says to turn the other cheek. Matthew 5:39-41.

And then there are lawsuits. From the way religious folks act here in our community you would think the scripture commands folks to sue.

In our community this concept has been tried sorely. Some have encountered lawsuits fueled by covertousness and the desire to control others unnecessarily. For example: a brother in our church wanted to set up a broiler farm with several houses. In order to do so, there are a lot of state rules to meet. He met them all plus some. But, lo and behold, here come some folks who challenged him and he bent over backwards to satisfy their wishes. They got to be so obnoxious he postponed this project even though he had met all the legal qualifications. And this is just one lawsuit.

How does one witness in a litigious society which thinks you owe them everything but they are not willing to work? And some of these lawsuits are the result from lawyers going to churches to get signatures so they can file a frivolous lawsuit. Seems to me this is an issue churches need to address - unless they are merely a social club then they could care less.

Actually, Obama does not challenge us as much as the locals who work to exercise undue, illegal power through intimidation. To turn the other cheek is a reality here in our community. And we live in the USA!

Got off on a bunny trail here...sometimes one has a real problem to think lovingly of these folks, like now.

ginnyrose

S
sermonindex

Dear Leo you write..."To all of you who cling so ardently to this doctrine of non-resistance "

Forgive me for bailing out of this conversation. I had surgery on both eyes on Thursday and can barely see, I am squinting right now to reply. So I will just hit on some basics. First of all, speaking for myself, I am not clinging on to anything, that sounds like desperation to me. Its just a matter ow walking out the Scriptures and the teachings of Jesus and it comes from the inside, not the outside. As far as all the talk of gouging out eys and so on, let us remember that we take Scriptures literlely. Now in every language and communications their are literary devices. If I say I am so hungry that I could eat a horse, and I say it within the context of a non-fiction piece, it does not mean that I am going to eat a horse, the readership of today knows this, however it is a vehicle to express the depths of my hunger. If I say that it is raining cats and dogs, again, the same thing, we know that it is raining very heavily, but not actual cats and dogs. If Jesus says that it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven, we know that under no circumstances can a camel go through the eye of a needle. Jesus is using a literary device in order to show the impossibility, outside of Him, of a rich man enetering heaven. If we read that a dragon rises from the sea, then we know that this is symbolic, and we do not look in the future for an actual dragon to rise up out of the sea. It is simply a matter of common sense. When Jesus talks about plucking out eyes or cutting of limbs, it is a literary device for expressing an extreme sentiment, not to be taken literaly. This, however, cannot be said of teachings that talk of turning the other cheek, or going the extra mile or giving the cloak when the coat is taken. These are literal teachings and there is nothing to suggest otherwise, and the disciples actually lived this out. In those days the Romans, by law, could compel a Jewish person to carry a load one mile, which they hated, in fact they detested this law. Jesus was saying, do not detest this, do not resist this, in fact, "go the extra mile," a phrase we still use to this day. So lets compare apples to apples. The teachings of Jesus are the teachings of Jesus. The Holy Spirit will urge His people to go a certain way, and they will follow for His sheep know His voice and the sheep listen to the voice of the master. He gave His commands then He gave us the Holy Spirit to help us walk HIs narrow path, and there are very few that find it. Most find the broad path of the world and the world's wisdom, counting the narrow path as too costly...........Frank

L
Leo_Grace

Dear Frank,

Thank you for contributing to the discussion. You said:

It is simply a matter of common sense. When Jesus talks about plucking out eyes or cutting of limbs, it is a literary device for expressing an extreme sentiment, not to be taken literally.

And I agree with you completely in this. The literary device is called [u]hyperbole - an extravagant exaggeration used for emphasis or vivid description, not to be taken literally[/u].

If one would look back on the sermon on the mount and look at its structure carefully, a larger message would become apparent (at least this is how I see it) :-) :

[b]Jesus' Main Message - Fulfillment of the law (The Law remains, but I'm raising the bar - you must be more righteous than the Pharisees.)[/b]

Mt 5:17-20 [color=CC3300]“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [b]For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.[/b]"[/color]

Apparently, Jesus wanted to correct some disciples who were anticipating that, with his coming (Messiah), the old Mosaic laws on righteousness would become obsolete. He said it was not so, and that the hurdle for acceptable performance was raised much higher than that practiced by the Pharisees. The last sentence, in bold style above, is what Jesus wanted to emphasize to his disciples.

[b]And he drove home this main message that his disciples should be [u]much more righteous[/u] than the Pharisees by using hyperbole in a sequence of topics touching on established Mosaic law.[/b]

The sequence of hyperbolic examples supporting the main message are as follows:

[b]Example 1 - Murder (Hyperbole: They said do not kill, I say do not even be angry with anyone - always settle your differences immediately, to be more righteous than the Pharisees.)[/b]

Mt 5:21-26 [color=CC3300]“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."[/color]

[b]Example 2 - Adultery (Hyperbole: They said do not commit adultery, I say do not even look at a woman lustfully - and always cut off any part of your body that causes you to sin, to be more righteous than the Pharisees.)[/b]

Mt 5:27 [color=CC3300]“You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."[/color]

[b]Example 3 - Divorce (Hyperbole: They allowed divorce with a mere certificate, I say treat divorce like adultery, except in cases of unfaithfulness, to be more righteous than the Pharisees.)[/b]

Mt 5:31-32 [color=CC3300]“It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery."[/color]

[b]Example 4 - Swearing an Oath (Hyperbole: They said keep your oaths to God, I say do not even swear any oath at all - just mean what you say, to be more righteous than the Pharisees.)[/b]

Mt 5:33-37 [color=CC3300]“Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.’ But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one."[/color]

[b]Example 5 - Justice or "Eye for eye" (Hyperbole: They said seek justice and no more, I say do not seek justice at all - accept injustice twice over, to be more righteous than the Pharisees)[/b]

Mt 5:38 [color=CC3300]“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."[/color]

[b]Example 6 - Love your Neighbor (Hyperbole: They said to love your neighbors, I say love your enemies also - and pray for them, to be more righteous than the Pharisees.)[/b]

Mt 5:43 [color=CC3300]“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."[/color]

The series of hyperbolic examples ends here. The reason I see these six examples as interconnected hyperbole to emphasize the main message is because:

1. They are all extravagant exaggerations of established Mosaic Law, which was the Pharisee's standard for righteousness.

2. They are all structured the same way. They all begin with something like: "You have heard it said..." or "It has been said...", followed by "But I tell you..." (Jesus was emphasizing just how much higher they had to jump than the Pharisees).

I pray that this explanation of how I view these passages in Jesus' sermon on the mount will be of help to others. Please realize that I am not in any way trying to minimize God's expectations of us. Our citizenship in His kingdom will cost us our very lives - we must die to ourselves to be reborn. All I'm saying is, as far as I can see (and I am only human), these six passages of Scripture are hyperbole, and are not to be taken literally.

In Christ's Love,
Leo

P.S. Frank, I pray that your eye surgery was successful, and that your eyes will heal quickly. God bless you, friend.

C
chapel

Matthew 5:38-42 [NRSV]
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; 40 and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; 41 and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. 42 Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer commenting on Matthew 5.38-42

At this point it becomes evident that when a Christian meets with injustice, he no longer clings to his rights and defends them at all costs. He is absolutely free from possessions and bound to Christ alone. Again, his witness to this exclusive adherence to Jesus creates the only workable basis for fellowship, and leaves the aggressor for him to deal with.

The only way to overcome evil is to let it run itself to a standstill because it does not find the resistance it is looking for. Resistance merely creates further evil and adds fuel to the flames. But when evil meets no opposition and encounters no obstacle but only patient endurance, its sting is drawn, and at last it meets an opponent which is more than its match. Of course this can only happen when the last ounce of resistance is abandoned, and the renunciation of revenge is complete. Then evil cannot find its mark, it can breed no further evil, and is left barren.

By willing endurance we cause suffering to pass. Evil becomes a spent force when we put up no resistance. By refusing to pay back the enemy in his own coin, and by preferring to suffer without resistance, the Christian exhibits the sinfulness of contumely and insult. Violence stands condemned by its failure to evoke counter-violence. When a man unjustly demands that I should give him my coat, I offer him my cloak also, and so counter his demand; when he requires me to go the other mile, I go willingly, and show up his exploitation of my service for what it is. To leave everything behind at the call of Christ is to be content with him alone, and to follow only him. By his willingly renouncing self-defense, the Christian affirms his absolute adherence to Jesus, and his freedom from the tyranny of his own ego. The exclusiveness of this adherence is the only power which can overcome evil.

…Suffering willingly endured is stronger than evil, it spells death to evil.

There is no deed on earth so outrageous as to justify a different attitude. The worse the evil, the readier must the Christian be to suffer; he must let the evil person fall into Jesus’ hands.

The Reformers offered a decisively new interpretation of this passage, and contributed a new idea of paramount importance. They distinguished between personal sufferings and those incurred by Christians in the performance of duty as bearers of an office ordained by God, maintaining that the precept of non-violence applies to the first but not to the second.
In the second case we are not only freed from obligation to eschew violence, but if we want to act in a genuine spirit of love we must do the very opposite, and meet force with force in order to check the assault of evil. It was along these lines that the Reformers justified war and other legal sanctions against evil.
But this distinction between person and office is wholly alien to the teaching of Jesus. He says nothing about that. He addresses his disciples as men who have left all to follow him, and the precept of non-violence applies equally to private life and official duty. He is the Lord of all life, and demands undivided allegiance.
Furthermore, when it comes to practice, this distinction raises insoluble difficulties. Am I ever acting only as a private person or only in an official capacity? If I am attacked am I not at once the father of my children, the pastor of my flock, and e.g. a government official? Am I not bound for that very reason to defend myself against every attack, for reason of responsibility to my office? And am I not always an individual, face to face with Jesus, even in the performance of my official duties?

Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship, (SCM Press: London, 2001), p. 91-93, (originally published in 1937 by Chr. Kaiser Verlag of Munich).

S
sermonindex

HI Leo,

May I first day that I fully endorse Bonheffer's interpretation of the sermon on the mount. The book, "The Cost of Discipleship," is one of my favourites and I try and read it at least every couple of years. I find the first two chapters to be exceptional and totaly slices open the fault lines of the reformation.

Putting that aside, I find no hyberbole in the Scriptures that you give, I merely find instruction based on a heart that is given over to God. Now, who could do such things? Who could lay down all of their rights and seek no justice on their own behalf? What a ridiculous notion right? Wrong, that is exactly what Jesus is calling on His people to do. This is the sermon that makes Him a revolutionary. All of the disciples would actually follow this path, they laid down their rights and they paid with their lives. They did not hate or seek to defend or retaliate, they did ask forgiveness for those who murdered them. Now where would they get such a notion? Of course, from the greatest example of a reaction to injustice, Jesus Himself. Was there a greater crime than Calvary in the history of man? Did Jesus willingly give Himself? Did He resist? What did He say about those who actually nailed Him to the cross? "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." How did Stephen react to his murderers, even as he was being murdered? This is the heart of the Gospel. This is where the chains of hatred and bitterness were broken. To this the enemy has no reply, this is the power. It is why the church , especially in America, is so without power, the power of God. The power of God is found when light meets darkness. When darkness meets darkness it merely produces more darkness. The enemy wins. It may not seem that way in the natural, if human wisdom was your guide then you would completely reject this notion. But when God finds a person or people aho are willing to lay down their lives and their rights then He can change the world through that group of people.

You write........"Apparently, Jesus wanted to correct some disciples who were anticipating that, with his coming (Messiah), the old Mosaic laws on righteousness would become obsolete. He said it was not so,"

He did not say that brother, and it was so brother. Hebrews 8:13 In that He says " A new Covenenat," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

Praise God, I am no longer under the "Old Mosaic Law of Righteousness." The laws of God are written on my heart and come from the inside out. Jesus said on the cross "It is finished," and all things were fulfilled. The powers of darkness and death and sin were broken by Jesus,by willingly submitting Himslelf to the cross and shedding His blood once and for all time, no longer would the blood of calves and bulls be required, for Jesus is now our sanctuary, our tabernacle. What was once only a shadow of the heavenly reality, has now become our reality. It is Jesus who leads us "behind the veil," into the Fathers presence. We have been reconciled, just as the Father had planned from before the foundations of the earth............Frank

S
sermonindex

Matt 5-7 is Christ showing how far the intent of the law goes so that none can claim its righteousness. The intent of the sermon on the mount is not to tell people how far to go so they can measure up to some higher standard, but rather to emphasize how far short of the perfect measurement we come, which in turn is to cause us to fall upon Christ.

Lest one would cast Joshua or David out of heaven this topic is probably best summed up with each thing (whether war or peace, killing or healing) having its own time, and the man of God must seek out God's will at that time.

Eccl 3:1-8

3 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

L
Leo_Grace

Dear Frank,

Praise God! Apparently your eyes are getting better.

You said:

Putting that aside, I find no hyberbole in the Scriptures that you give, I merely find instruction based on a heart that is given over to God.

But Frank, it was you who pointed out the hyperbole to me:

Now in every language and communications their are literary devices. If I say I am so hungry that I could eat a horse, and I say it within the context of a non-fiction piece, it does not mean that I am going to eat a horse, the readership of today knows this, however it is a vehicle to express the depths of my hunger. If I say that it is raining cats and dogs, again, the same thing, we know that it is raining very heavily, but not actual cats and dogs. If Jesus says that it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven, we know that under no circumstances can a camel go through the eye of a needle. Jesus is using a literary device in order to show the impossibility, outside of Him, of a rich man enetering heaven. If we read that a dragon rises from the sea, then we know that this is symbolic, and we do not look in the future for an actual dragon to rise up out of the sea. [b]It is simply a matter of common sense. When Jesus talks about plucking out eyes or cutting of limbs, it is a literary device for expressing an extreme sentiment, not to be taken literaly[/b].

In fact, you said a mouthful :-) .

If now you say there is no hyperbole in this passage, and ...

I merely find instruction based on a heart that is given over to God

...then we must obey:

Mt 5:29-30 [color=CC3300]"If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, m cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."[/color]

... we cannot pick and choose the instructions that we will obey.

As I said before, if we are to take this passage (Mt 5:17-43) as literal instruction from the Lord, and if we are honest about our personal sinfulness, then there will be a lot of really blind people leading the "blind". Unless we can honestly claim that our eyes never lead us to sin.

Please do not misunderstand my intention. I'm merely trying to point out that these specific passages are hyperbole in support of Jesus' instruction to his disciples to become much more righteous than the Pharisees. Since these are "extravagant exaggerations" to stress a point, they are not to be taken literally. I am not saying the same for other verses in the Bible.

There are many other passages that instruct us regarding adultery, divorce, oaths to God, justice, and love for neighbor. It is to these other passages that we must go for enlightenment.

I have not said that non-resistance is wrong. I personally believe that it is to be the rule, particularly where personal injustice is concerned. Forbearance is a necessary part of "love your neighbor".

Just let's not turn a blind eye on how these verses are constructed and unified and interconnected in the Bible. Identifying hyperbole as hyperbole, seeing it for what it is, does not in any way detract from God's glory or the tenor or weight of His instructions to us.

In Christ's Love,
Leo

L
Leo_Grace

Dear old Joe,

Matt 5-7 is Christ showing how far the intent of the law goes so that none can claim its righteousness. The intent of the sermon on the mount is not to tell people how far to go so they can measure up to some higher standard, but rather to emphasize how far short of the perfect measurement we come, which in turn is to cause us to fall upon Christ.

That was very well said. Short and precise - you put my lengthy posts to shame. :-)

Leo

S
sermonindex

lEO , lEO , lEO :)

You discuss this like a politician :) I said that common sense prevails and hypbebole identifies itself. Lets not put words in my mouth please, it does not serve you well. I gave you the examples of hyperbole. I told you that no one has gouged out their eyes or cut of limbs, no one mentally stable that is, and this was clearly hyperbole. Now brother, thats not difficult to understand. Let not intentionaly complicate a simple matter. If you find the instructions from Jesus too difficult brother, then perhaps one must follow the crowd of John 6 :) Of course, most of the disciples left HIm at that point because what He was saying was too difficult. I think there is a similar difficutly for followers of Jesus when it comes to the sermon on the mount and we cleaverly devise interpretations that allow us to follow the ways of the world.

"If now you say there is no hyperbole in this passage."

Where did I say that brother? I said that Jesus gave instructions for His followers in Mat 5-7. I also said that hyperbole identifies itself. I gave the exmples of it and threw in the camel for good measure :) This is not a "gotcha ," discussion brother, this is a serious matter. It could well be argued that this very matter is why the church, particulalry in America, lacks real power...........Frank

PS...Just because one finds hyperbole in a chapter, does not mean that everything else one reads must be hyperbole, that does not even make sense. I can make several serious points in a chapter of a non-ficition book and still say that it is raining cats and dogs, that does not nullify the serious points or somehow turn them also in hyperbole, is this what you are suggesting brother?

L
Leo_Grace

Dear Frank,

I have simply been trying to explain to others, including you, how I see that particular passage of scripture in Mt 5:17-43. I see them all as interrelated passages, all pointing at Jesus' exhortation that his disciples must far exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees. I see the unity of purpose in the hyperboles (or exaggerations) to emphasize the large extent by which they must exceed the Pharisees; I see the unity of purpose in the way the passages were similarly structured from beginning to end. I tried to explain this, thinking that it would be easy for others to see what I saw - obviously I was mistaken.

Regardless, this recent discussion was merely intended to clarify my view. If I have failed to do that, then so be it.

By the way, Frank, I never implied nor do I believe that Jesus' teachings are "too hard". I am one of those who have lost themselves to Christ - I am dead and gone, and the dead never complain.

In Christ's Love,
Leo

S
sermonindex

Leo,

I have no problem with you explaining what you believe, and we obviously disagree and thats ok too. The bottom line in all of these discussions is that we can agree to disagree. I think your point is well explained, you believe it is all hyperbole. My postion is that it is hyperbole where it is obvious, literal.

I think that it is impossible from the Scriptures and from the behaviour of the early church to argue that if one joins a civil organisation then all of what is taught by Jesus on the sermon on the mount is nullified while you are a part of that organisation. What you seem to be doing in your argument, and please correct me if I am wrong, is saying that Jesus never taught that in the first place therefore our discussion is moot? Or perhaps you are saying that when Jesus tokd His followers to turn the other cheek, that He was "wildly exagerating," because no one would ever actually turn the other cheek? ..........Frank

L
Leo_Grace

Frank,

You have a funny way of rephrasing my statements like:

"I think that it is impossible from the Scriptures and from the behaviour of the early church to argue that if one joins a civil organisation then all of what is taught by Jesus on the sermon on the mount is nullified while you are a part of that organisation."

or

"What you seem to be doing in your argument, and please correct me if I am wrong, is saying that Jesus never taught that in the first place therefore our discussion is moot?"

or

"Or perhaps you are saying that when Jesus tokd His followers to turn the other cheek, that He was "wildly exagerating," because no one would ever actually turn the other cheek?"

I cannot see how you arrived at these.

I have already made eleven posts in this thread which, I believe, adequately present my stand on the topic. I also agree very much with what ccchhhrrriiisss has posted here, so you may want to read his posts too if you truly want to grasp what I have been trying to say.

Thank you.

Leo

S
sermonindex

Hi Leo,

The first phrase you quote has nothing to do with you or any phrase you may have used, it was a general point on the subject of the thread. The second phrase you quote is not a rephrasing of something you said, it was a question. You have stated that in Mat 5:17-43 the points are related and that I could not pick and chose which ones to obey. Of course I never said such a thing. I pointed out that Jesus was giving us instructions but in one point He used hyperbole to emphasis His point. You used the hyperbole to accuse people of not doing that one thing literally and that people should be consistant. I merely pointed out that it was hyperbole and was never meant to be taken literaly so one can hardly be admonished for not gouging out the eye or cutting of the hand. Therefore what you were suggesting made no sense. Its not that I do not understand you brother, its that it makes no sense to me, its co-mingling instructions with a statement that was , by your own definition, grossly exaggerated to make the point. As for the last phrase, when Jesus told us to turn the other cheek, did He mean it brother? Are we to slap back? ..........Frank

L
Leo_Grace

Frank,

You said:

Therefore what you were suggesting made no sense. Its not that I do not understand you brother, its that it makes no sense to me

If it made no sense to you, then you didn't understand it.
Thank you for your time.

Leo

H
HeartSong


The enemy seeks to divide and conquer and he cares not how he does it.

One way is just as good as another.

C
chapel

In searching the thread "We need to talk about peace" recommended by ginnyrose, I found this post by Pastorfrin which I find very interesting and is I believe the answer to this discussion.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?forum=35&topic_id=15338&post_id=119211&viewmode=thread&order=1#119211

Notice the question Pastorfrin ask at the end of the article.

L
Leo_Grace

Old Joe summarized it beautifully, and it's worth repeating:

Matt 5-7 is Christ showing how far the intent of the law goes so that none can claim its righteousness. The intent of the sermon on the mount is not to tell people how far to go so they can measure up to some higher standard, but rather to emphasize how far short of the perfect measurement we come, which in turn is to cause us to fall upon Christ.

Thank you all.

Leo

S
sermonindex

Pastorfrin sums it up beautifully and who better to comment than an old soldier who has saw the horrors of war. Onr thing I think, if one takes the time to read the article, is that its all Scripture. Everything he says stands upon the Word. Those who believe that men can join human institutions and therefore nullify the teachings of the lord temperarily, have not a single Scripture, merely the opinions of men.

My mothers brother spent 6 months in prison in 1947 for refusing to be trained how to kill someone. At that time, even although Britain was not at war, they had national conscription. Each young man had to spend 18 months in the military. I believe it ended in the early fifites. Apparently he had a horrific time in prison, men had no time , especially just after the war, for what they considered cowards. My uncle went on to become a missionary in Pakistan for over 30 years, a truly brave man who walked out his faith and the Word of God.

Something to consider..............
In the movie "Saving Private Ryan," which had, arguably,one of the most realistic war scenes in the opening 2o minutes, we saw the chaos and horror of the beach landings in Normandy. Many old soldiers attested to its realism and of course it won awards. Now, in the midst of the chaos and mayhem, we see a Catholic priest. He administers "Sacraments," and comforts the wounded and the dying. He has no gun. This would not garner any comment from anyone. No one would expect to see a "priest," with his collor on shooting and killing people, they would expect him to comfort and pray for those who had fallen. Now, why is that not an unusual scene for the world? You see, even the world does not expect "men of the cloth," to carry guns and shoot people, that would not be considered their role in life. Yet, as most on this site at least, know, the true priests in a royal priesthood are not Catholic clerics, but they are anyone who genuinly knows Jesus.

Now, why is there never been a movement to have Catholic priests and others take up weapons? What the world so easily understands, so many professing Christians do not.........brother Frank

H
HeartSong

Again I ask, what kingdom do we belong to, and who is our king?
Love and Peace to All,
pastorfrin

I was reading John 19 this morning, and these words really struck me:

John 19:12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, [b]If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: [u]whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.[/b][/u]

John 19:15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? [b]The chief priests answered, [u]We have no king but Caesar.[/b][/u]

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi HeartSong...

Again I ask, what kingdom do we belong to, and who is our king?

We certainly belong to an eternal kingdom with an Eternal King. Yet, we are still confined to this temporary life in the place, time and land of the Lord's choosing. In fact, we are actually AMBASSADORS OF CHRIST to this present world. Yet, no matter how spiritually minded we hopefully might be, we are still confined to this present world for the time being. While our hearts and minds might be concentrating on heavenly, eternal things, we still have obligations and responsibilities here on this Earth.

[b]I Peter 2:13-17[/b]

13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. [b]Fear God. Honour the king.[/b]

[b]Romans 13:1-7[/b]

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

[b]Acts 2:22-29[/b]

22 And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live.

23 And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air,

24 The chief captain commanded him to be brought into the castle, and bade that he should be examined by scourging; that he might know wherefore they cried so against him.

25And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned?

26 When the centurion heard that, he went and told the chief captain, saying, Take heed what thou doest: for this man is a Roman.

27 [b]Then the chief captain came, and said unto him, Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea.[/b]

28 And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was free born.

29 Then straightway they departed from him which should have examined him: and the chief captain also was afraid, after he knew that he was a Roman, and because he had bound him.

[b]Acts 10:1-6[/b]

1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

2 [b]A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.[/b]

3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.

4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:

6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

[b]I Corinthians 7:32-35[/b]

32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:

33 [b]But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.[/b]

34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

35 And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.

[b]I Timothy 5:7-8[/b]

7 And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.

8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

S
sermonindex

Romans 13:1-7

"1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:"

I have to admit, I struggle a little on this one. Is the underground Church in China doing a good work?? In God's eyes they are since the Bible says to do the work of an evangelist. But what about in the eyes of the state of China?? Do they see this as a good work? Since they made an ordinance for the Bible not to be preached I would think not. In this case the underground church will be punished by the state for not adhering to law. Yet we would consider this a 'good work' that should go unpunished by the state. Where is the sciptural line drawn here??

cc-

S
sermonindex

Hi CC..

Chris uses Scriptural quotes in order to validate war, which is what this thread is about. Yet these Scriptures were not designed for the followers of Jesus to blindly follow earthly powers. We are to live peacably amongst men, when it is within our power, but we are never told to violate our concience, the thought is a preposterous one. When the apostles were released and told not to share the Gospel again, what was their reply to the authorities? Who should a man honor, God or the authorities? Chris further states that we are ambassadors, which of course is correct. Now what is an ambassadors role? If America sends an Ambassador to Russia, does the Ambassador get involved in local conflicts or politics? Or, is he there merely to represent the views of the ruler that sent him? The centurion that Chris mentions had not yet been baptized in the Holy Spirit, correct? Now, if we look at the story of Peter before and after his baptism in the Holy Spirit we see a telling story. In the first scene we see Peter cutting of the ear of the servant of the high priest, with a sword. He is told to put his sword dwon and Jesus restores the man's ear. This is too much for Peter to take. He was very brave and had every intention of going down with the ship, a fight to the death. Go to any country in the world and you can raise men who will fight to the death for any number of causes. When he realized that Jesus was willingly sumbitting, surrendering into the hands of the enemy to be humilated, tortured and killed, Peter rejected that and denied Jesus, yes even with curses. Now, what do we see after the baptism of the Holy Spirit? A totaly changed Peter, endued with power from on high, power to penetrate the hardest hearts with what? The sword? The spear? No, with the words of life. Of course Stephen and others were endued with this same power and all would be martyred. Yet through their martyrdom the world would be radically changed, not by war or by human effort, but by surrender and yielding to the Lord and "loving not their lives unto death."

Now at the bottom of Chris's post we see this quote..........

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose" by JIm Elliot.

Now there can be no better modern example of how the forces of darkness are destroyed. Jim met his fate, of course, at the end of a spear. Now, those missionaries had come to seek and to save the lost, not to defend and to kill. It is interesting that they had a pistol on that plane, but had agreed not to use it on any natives. And what happened to the natives that killed them? Almost all were saved. God's ways are so much higher than man's ways and wisdom, may His way be praised..........Frank

R
rainydaygirl

I was talking over this thread with another in the body and they asked me that if we are to submit ourselves to the government of this land with out questioning or seeking if it is in Gods will for us, then why do so many speak out against abortion? It is after all the law in this land that a woman has a right to choose. If a young man or woman can go off to war and kill to serve his country because that is the law of the land and do so with a clear conscious then a woman can choose to have a baby or not with a clear conscious. It is after all the law here in this country and she is submitting herself unto it..

(on a side note, I "MUST" make clear this is not my point of view, this was the opinion of another that I am relating here. In her mind one form of killing is no different then the other, both are taking of a life. I should also add that this person was not advocating abortion, she believes all killing is wrong. I will admit that Even for me it is a difficult one to answer because in the end someone is loosing their life, the place matters little, it may be in an abortion clinic, or on the battlefield. People are dieing. I am not implying that a solider fighting in a war is like a doctor performing an abortion are the same, but rather not sure how to answer that the resulting actions of someone dieing are the same? We would never say to a christian doctor because the law says that abortion is permissible go with a clear conscious and kill unborn babies, why then do we say to christian young men and woman because the law says so go and defend this country and if need be kill men and woman with a clear conscious. Is killing of any kind sin, if not in the new testament where is one instructed to kill in order to live a Godly life? Can you really truly love the person with a Christ like heart and then kill them? these are just some of my thoughts and questions. I do not pretend to have all the answer, but as Christians are there not things that we just can not do?)

with care
rdg

edit: I almost forgot, another brother asked this question. What if Christian American soldiers were asked to go into American cities and defend or take control and they found themselves having to shoot fellow Christians would they still be able to do so with a clear conscious? For me these are all really tough questions as I said.(I am sure it happened in the civil war sadly, I just don't see how you can say you love someone then kill them, and we are told to love our enemies :(

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Frank...

Chris uses Scriptural quotes in order to validate war...
Ummm...how did you conclude that this was my intent? Frank, I think that you are making this a little more personal than might be necessary. Next time, you might want to ASK me before publicly "reading my mind" and expressing just what you think that my intentions might be.

If you read my posts again, I don't think that you can even remotely make the clam that this is what I am trying to do. What I am trying to say, however, is that this issue is not nearly as "open and shut" as some people might make it out to be. Some of us have prayed about this topic, studied it with sincerity, and simply arrived to a different conclusion.

I am raising the possibility that there is a difference between egocentric SELF DEFENSE and both defense of the weak or service in the military. I covered many of the things that you are commenting about several pages back (in my first post in this thread). There is possibly a difference between PERSONAL reaction to an evil person...and defending those who might be entrusted to your care.

You don't have to agree; however, you don't have to insist that you are absolutely correct on this issue either. It is funny that some of the individuals who claim to embrace "non-resistance" are often the same ones who use are the most vulgar or angry with their words that are directed toward those who disagree with them. Angry words, public misinterpretations and "spiritual" ridicule from a brother can often hurt more than any spear.

S
sermonindex

Hi rdg. You said or 'they said':

"It is after all the law in this land that a woman has a right to choose."

I don't see it quite this way in this example as you are within the law regardless of what you choose. Neither choosing abortion nor the life of the child is against the ordinance of the state.... but one is against the mandate of God.

Paul is talking about law breakers... those who obstinately go against a rule of law designed to sustain some civility and order. Take for instance the big headline a few months ago when a man killed an abortion doctor in a church. As far as the law was concerned that doctor did no wrong in his practice BUT the man that killed him was arrested for murder as the law is against this. Regardless of how the many people of this nation see abortion as murder (as it does end a life-filled organism) the law of the land is not undone by this contingent whether right or wrong. But I don't think the world saw this murder of the doctor as 'a good work' on behalf of Christianity. We have to expect the unsaved to have a skewed view of morality but we are peculiar to this as children of God. When we react to murder with murder then the world's view of our morality.. as it pertains to God's law... sees that we are skewed as well. Anyway the man who killed the doctor disobeyed and the state punished him.... but he thought he was doing a good work and so all of Christianity gets painted with this brush... Paul wants to mitigate this so we are to be as consistent as we can be in recognizing and obeying the secular state. We can preach against it and be within the the law, but once someone pulls the trigger they are acting on their own behalf.

But what about those in China who are not to preach the Gospel but do so 'underground' to avoid getting caught??... for obviously they are avoiding pending punishment for violating the state law. These are gray areas for me in terms of Scripture.

L
Leo_Grace

rainydaygirl said:

I was talking over this thread with another in the body and they asked me that if we are to submit ourselves to the government of this land with out questioning or seeking if it is in Gods will for us, then why do so many speak out against abortion? It is after all the law in this land that a woman has a right to choose. If a young man or woman can go off to war and kill to serve his country because that is the law of the land and do so with a clear conscious then a woman can choose to have a baby or not with a clear conscious. It is after all the law here in this country and she is submitting herself unto it..

The correct term to use when discussing what God has forbidden is MURDER, not KILL - there is a difference here. Murder is a personal act accompanied by malicious intent and premeditation. Abortion is murder.

Let us not radicalize what others are saying, please. We all agree that all government laws are subordinate to the laws of God. If people don't agree with you, it doesn't mean they have discarded God's teachings.

R
rainydaygirl


Edit: need to rewrite my response.
rdg

R
rainydaygirl

Ccrider Wrote: I don't see it quite this way in this example as you are within the law regardless of what you choose. Neither choosing abortion nor the life of the child is against the ordinance of the state.... but one is against the mandate of God.

____

That is true and I agree that a woman is choosing to go against Gods will in choosing to have an abortion. There is nothing compelling her to do so, but what if she lived in China, then the law would compel her to abort(if she already had a child) She would have to choose to follow God or follow the law of the land.

You also wrote: But what about those in China who are not to preach the Gospel but do so 'underground' to avoid getting caught??... for obviously they are avoiding pending punishment for violating the state law. These are gray areas for me in terms of Scripture.
____

I am not sure about this either. Many things I do not fully understand, I think it best that I just leave this and trust it all to the hands of the Lord. For me, I just can not reconcile how you can say to someone I love you with the love of Christ and then end their life? This is what I am trying to come to terms with, "Love your enemies."


with care
rdg

S
sermonindex

HI Chris, you write.....

"the most vulgar or angry with their words that are directed toward those who disagree with them."

Thats quite bizarre my friend. Could you give an example of a "vulgar word," that I have written. I have not the slightest anger about this subject at all. As for being personal, I have no idea what you are talking about Chris. This thread ia about a particular subject. So instead of some kind of back anf forward, which would be fruitless, lest get back to the subject at hand. Here is a simple enough question Chris, and a plain answer would suffice. Is it ok for a Christian to fight in a war? I say no, what say you?

Lets try and keep anything personal out of this, it never moves the debate forward Chris. I know that you have never liked the fact that I have shared that I believe Christians should not be involved in politics. And you have never forgiven me for giving a word about "President Bush," and I accpet that too. But this is a bizarre reply without quotes. To say that I am a vulgar angry man is a new low Chris, and I see it as a distraction to a very important debate..........Frank

S
sermonindex

I will quickly way in and then i am done with convo with frank on this subject.

Frank, part of the problem is that you do not see that you have a sharp pharisee type approach that comes out right at the point counter point.
I would recommend you practice what you preach regarding non resistnace and also lighten up on your view of christians who do participate in Gov/military/police etc.

I will not be responding to you on this anymore.
I just wanted to weigh in cuz chris and a few others have a more merciful, balanced approach to this topic than you and others.

chow

S
sermonindex

I think that the questions that RDG and ccrider raises show how complex the world can become the further we rationalize Scriptures in order to fit into societies norms. The question never stays at personal defence. If one says they would defend thmsleves personally then usually the other person ups the ante and asks what about your family, your niegbours, your community and then your country.

Oftentimes I have heard people passionately debate cell stem research and , with passion and zeal, defend the unborn life that these cell stems represent. Yet, if they were to be asked if the nuclear bombing of Japan was justified, they would say yes , because ultimately it was war and it saved many more lives. I am not sure that you can have it both ways, this is the exact same argument the world uses in order to justify research. Its a kind of situational ethics but it always comes back to, for the Christian, is killing ever justified. Some say yes, some say no and some are confused..........Frank

R
rainydaygirl

Leo wrote: Let us not radicalize what others are saying, please. We all agree that all government laws are subordinate to the laws of God. If people don't agree with you, it doesn't mean they have discarded God's teachings.

___

I had written a response to this and felt the Lord leading that I very much needed to come back and change what I had said. First let me say that it was not my intention to come across with any kind of attitude that because you and I disagree that you were some how discarding the teachings of the Lord.I would never attempt to judge your heart like that it is not my place. I thought I made it clear that I was talking over this topic with a small group of brethren that I meet with and that some questions came up. Some that I did not have answers to and where kind of running through my mind as I seek to understand the Lord heart on this issue. If I did not make it clear enough then I am sorry I will try again. Some of the things that I share in my previous post were questions from a sister and a brother in the Lord who were posing these thoughts for me to consider and I was just passing them along wondering what others were seeing. I had shared some of the things that Chris had posted and these questions came up through the discussion. You also said please do not radicalize what others are saying, forgive me I am not even sure how to respond to that because I don't think I know what that means. Honestly though and humbly if you felt that I was doing that then I am sorry and would ask you to forgive me. I would not ever try to put words into other peoples mouths or assume what they are thinking. For me this is not about trying to be right or convince someone that my view is correct, its about wanting to know the heart of my Lord and Savior on the matter so that I might walk out His will for my life and for those who He has given me care over.

Perhaps it will be best for me to leave this thread and just seek to find what the Lord heart is this on my own. I do not want to cause anyone to stumble so I will leave this to you. Again for any offense you feel because of my post I ask you to forgive me, it was not my heart to offend anyone.

with care
rdg

S
sermonindex

Hi thingsabove,

I have been called worse names than that, even today :) And usually by the same people that stems back to old arguments over what the role of a Christian is. I believe there are debaters and there are name callers. The modern way of debate is to attack the messenger. Yet, the topic remains and it goes right to the heart of the state of the church in the west. If we are a church without power, then we have to ask why. I believe that this particualr debate exposes why we are a church without power. And when you make a stand on a point, typically the name calling follows.............Frank

L
Leo_Grace


rainydaygirl wrote:
Leo wrote: Let us not radicalize what others are saying, please. We all agree that all government laws are subordinate to the laws of God. If people don't agree with you, it doesn't mean they have discarded God's teachings.

___

I had written a response to this and felt the Lord leading that I very much needed to come back and change what I had said. First let me say that it was not my intention to come across with any kind of attitude that because you and I disagree that you were some how discarding the teachings of the Lord.I would never attempt to judge your heart like that it is not my place. I thought I made it clear that I was talking over this topic with a small group of brethren that I meet with and that some questions came up. Some that I did not have answers to and where kind of running through my mind as I seek to understand the Lord heart on this issue. If I did not make it clear enough then I am sorry I will try again. Some of the things that I share in my previous post were questions from a sister and a brother in the Lord who were posing these thoughts for me to consider and I was just passing them along wondering what others were seeing. I had shared some of the things that Chris had posted and these questions came up through the discussion. You also said please do not radicalize what others are saying, forgive me I am not even sure how to respond to that because I don't think I know what that means. Honestly though and humbly if you felt that I was doing that then I am sorry and would ask you to forgive me. I would not ever try to put words into other peoples mouths or assume what they are thinking. For me this is not about trying to be right or convince someone that my view is correct, its about wanting to know the heart of my Lord and Savior on the matter so that I might walk out His will for my life and for those who He has given me care over.

Perhaps it will be best for me to leave this thread and just seek to find what the Lord heart is this on my own. I do not want to cause anyone to stumble so I will leave this to you. Again for any offense you feel because of my post I ask you to forgive me, it was not my heart to offend anyone.

with care
rdg

dear rdg,

It is I who should apologize for the sloppy way I made that post - it was rushed. You'll notice that there was no salutation because the post was for everyone, not for you. I quoted you as an example just to point out the word "kill" since I hoped to stress that God's command was against murder, which is different.

The rest of the post about not overreacting to those who disagree was really not for you. It was for others in this thread who have been overreacting.

It was all my fault. Again, I apologize and hope you will continue to participate.

Leo

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Frank...

HI Chris, you write.....

"the most vulgar or angry with their words that are directed toward those who disagree with them."

Thats quite bizarre my friend. Could you give an example of a "vulgar word," that I have written. I have not the slightest anger about this subject at all. As for being personal, I have no idea what you are talking about Chris. This thread ia about a particular subject.


Actually, and as "bizarre" as this might seem, this comment was not directed at YOU, Frank. It is, rather, in regard to some individuals that I have spoken with who hold to a very particular "non-resistant" position in regard to government, fighting, self-defense, military service, voting, etc...

Those individuals publicly proclaim to embrace a belief in "Christian non-resistance," yet they are the first to hurl allegations at government leaders, government workers and even those who disagree with their position. I have even been accused of "bowing my knees to the system of this dark world" by two different "non-resistance" brethren simply because of my own views about this matter that I feel are totally in compliance with the Gospel and held with a clear conscience before God. This type of rhetorical "resistance" from those individuals was quite fierce, accusatory and, well, unbecoming.

This thread ia about a particular subject. So instead of some kind of back anf forward, which would be fruitless, lest get back to the subject at hand. Here is a simple enough question Chris, and a plain answer would suffice. Is it ok for a Christian to fight in a war? I say no, what say you?

I think that my posts WERE about this particular subject (well, until you incorrectly interpreted my intentions for posting those Scripture passages). In fact, I think that I already articulated my position in the first few threads. My point was (and still is) that, often, a plain answer does not suffice. This issue might not be so "clear cut" as some would have us believe. All of the Scriptural "proof" that I have seen in this discussion has not led me to believe that the Lord absolutely forbids defending someone else from an attacker...or from serving in the military. I understand the "turn the other cheek" passage, but even that Scripture speaks in regard to egocentric defense and NOT in regard to the defense of a wife, a child, a mother, the weak or even military service.
Lets try and keep anything personal out of this, it never moves the debate forward Chris.
Yes, Frank, and please refrain from doing so in the future. If you want to publicly tell others the purpose of my posts (such as when you said, "[i]Chris uses Scriptural quotes in order to validate war[/i]"), you might want to ask me for clarity in order to prevent yourself from bearing false witness.
I know that you have never liked the fact that I have shared that I believe Christians should not be involved in politics. And you have never forgiven me for giving a word about "President Bush," and I accpet that too. But this is a bizarre reply without quotes.

Ummm...what you "know" is incorrect. In fact, I think that you are completely entitled to your own personal opinion that believers should not be involved in the political process. There is nothing in that which would merit my "dislike" whatsoever. However, I don't like it when you "push" your opinion as if it were the only one that matters in these sort of discussions...or as if your opinion is actually straight from the mind of God. I know that this is probably NOT how you intend to come across. Yet, this is how it sometimes seems, brother. As for your "word" about President Bush, I took it with a grain of salt. I did offer my opinion in regard to the various things that you said, but you simply rejected it. We are, after all, told to "test everything" (I Thessalonians 5:21). Yet, really, there is nothing to "forgive." While I didn't agree with your "words" back then, but I've moved past those things.
But this is a bizarre reply without quotes. To say that I am a vulgar angry man is a new low Chris, and I see it as a distraction to a very important debate..........Frank

Well, it is a good thing, then, that my comment was NOT directed at you. Next time, if you have questions about what I am meaning with my words, you might simply ask. I can add any clarity that might be necessary.

To borrow the old cliché, we can "agree to disagree" about this in regard to our opinions and positions about this matter. I would, however, urge that we treat everyone else as if they, too, are children of God who have prayed about this issue, studied and sought the face of God in regard to this matter. Those prayerful opinions matter too.

S
sermonindex

Everyone here is talking about war with regards to killing, what about dying?

Does anybody here want to be the first to renounce the freedoms they live under, thanks in part to those who died at the butt end of a gun in a war on their behalf?

If you are a Christian who is not prepared to shoot a gun, you can at least go to war and be shot in place of a friend or neighbour who is not prepared to die. That is the sacrificial love of Christ actually put into action....

Any takers for that one? Probably not. Why? Because it is easy to sit back here and talk about peace in a world full of war.

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone.


I appologise beforehand for commenting here and not having read through the discussion except some of the first post.


I wanted to say a couple things about people's involvment in war if I could. Please only consider this as my own weak and limited understanding of this topic. I do not want to pursuade anyone to be for or against fighting in a war.

One thing that I noticed sometime ago is that several groups of people had come to John the Baptist in response to his preaching and saying to them that they must repent.


One group, Luke says, were [i]soldiers[/i]. And he says, that they asked John,


"And what shall we do?"


His first response to them, was that they 'Do violence to no man'.


Barnes' suggests that John meant that they should not take the property of others unjustly, or use unjust force against anyone.


This makes sense to me also, as he goes on to tell them to, not accuse anyone falsely, and,[i]to be content with their wages[/i].


One can hardly imagine a soldier that was expected to fight or to use force, to himself expect to recieve his wages when he refused to do so.


Well, there are other things in the scriptures that I think speak to this issue, but this has stood out to me much, in that, it was John that said it to them. The one sent to prepare the way for Christ.


For myself, I cannot imagine looking a man in the eyes that has hazarded his life and the enjoyment of his family and children in this world in order to protect my saftey, and to tell him that I despise him and what he has done.

On the other hand, I cannot also, say to a man for instance that I met one night outside of a bar, who had probably been drinking much for his own sorrows, that I despise him either, because he refused to accept my gratitude for his service to our country, because he was so distraught over the things he had done.


I cannot look at either man and say anything to him bad.


I say that we live in a world, where some things are very hard, and very difficult for us to understand.

I wish all, whether you have or have not fought to protect us, God's love and grace to you.

C
ChrisJD

Joe, I think that you make a good point.


There is a testimony on here that is somewhat like that in one of Keith Daniel's messages.

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HI Joe...You wrote...


"If you are a Christian who is not prepared to shoot a gun, you can at least go to war and be shot in place of a friend or neighbour who is not prepared to die"

Christians have been stretcher bearers in numerous wars. Ultimately the only freedom that counts is the freedom wrought on Calvary. Freedoms of the world can be given and can be taken away, what we have in Christ cannot. Its not about peace Joe, its about following the dictates of Jesus. That alone will bring you persecution. As for dying, the people who should be least afraid of dying in this world should be Christians............Frank

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appolus wrote:
Christians have been stretcher bearers in numerous wars. Ultimately the only freedom that counts is the freedom wrought on Calvary. Freedoms of the world can be given and can be taken away, what we have in Christ cannot. Its not about peace Joe, its about following the dictates of Jesus.

It isn't about following the dictates of Jesus either. It is about trusting His finished work, whether in the penthouse or the foxhole.

Here is a better stat for you. More Christians died in the world wars on the behalf of the freedoms of others than are alive in the world today. War has that nasty habit of making people think about eternity....


As for dying, the people who should be least afraid of dying in this world should be Christians............Frank

Well Frank, there is a front line somewhere begging for someone to die on it. Why not take the place of another who is not so prepared to die? Perhaps you could even be a war prisoner for a while and bring the gospel to a prison guard or some fellow prisoners. Instead of just talking about it, perhaps you could actually forsake your freedoms for your fellow man, freedoms delivered via the butt of a gun.

I highly recommend this book on the topic of 'War and Grace'

http://www.challies.com/archives/book-reviews/book-review-war.php

"The final chapter was the one I found most fascinating. The author writes about Henry Gerecke who was the Protestant (Lutheran) chaplain to the Nazi war criminals during their trial at Nuremberg. Dedicating many months to sharing the gospel with these men, he was blessed to see several of the highest ranking Nazis, men whose crimes live in infamy even today, humble themselves before God. I am sure very few have learned in school that among the last words of Joachim von Ribbentrop, Hitler’s foreign minister, were, “I place all my confidence in the Lamb who made atonement for my sins. May God have mercy on my soul.” He then turned to Gerecke and said, “I’ll see you again.”

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Hi Joe,

You know what I like about you Joe, your a straight shooter. You do not stand behind double talk and you tell it how it is, or at least how you see it. Truth is Joe, you know nothing about my life of course, and that is probably the way it will stay. Any way JOe, we disagree, but at least we know what we are disagreeing about :) I like that. You may have some Scottish blood in you :).......Frank

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"Instead of just talking about it, perhaps you could actually forsake your freedoms for your fellow man, freedoms delivered via the butt of a gun." Old Joe

While I can give partial credit to the butt of a gun for my freedom, the truth is those same 'butts' have also been used for atrocities with implications that few can fathom and NOT in the name of freedom but oppression and genocide. Giving credit for my freedom to the butt of a gun is like Joshua giving credit for his victory to the trumpet. God has yet to deliver man from the preferred method of solving our disputes. Jesus said "wars must come" and I believe this is God's way of showing man that.. left to our own devices... man would eventually destroy himself. It's not God's best but it's the way it is in a fallen world.

But God has yet to remove the Holy Spirit from our midst to reveal the anti-Christ:

....................

2 Thess 2

"7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work;

but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."
.............................

Until this time God will allow the 'butts' to do their job for better or worse. So I should give some credit to The One whose holding back the evil that wants to take my freedom away.

Although there are many scriptures to support non-resistance, Paul said one thing that really complicates my view on this:
........................

2 Cor 10

"3For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds."
.................................

Paul gives a contrast here between the world and the remnant church. One contrast is concerning war... "we do not wage war as the world does"..
What did Paul mean by 'war' as it pertains to the world?? Is it anything other than the obvious?? How about weapons?? Paul says "we fight not with the weapons of the world". What does he mean by 'weapons of the world'? And then in describing us says: 'on the contrary'??

I can see why people have a non-resistent theology as there is much to say about this in Scripture. And ccchhrissss, I hope we can agree that the vulgarity of some of these people you describe is not a scriptural issue but one of personal character. Vulgarity doesn't discriminate between views... that's been proven on this forum.

This all said... plenty of Veterans have been saved by the grace of God just like everyone else. He won't allow war and the duty served to be a deal breaker. If there were a draft and I had to serve I would certainly be trust into the prayer closet for the Lord's answer to the situation. But you can bet that if I'm on the battlefield I'll have a prayer for every bullet fired and not one angry bone in my body for those who want to kill me.

..........................

Eph 6:12

12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
................................

And if I have to defend my family to my own death because of an intruder, I won't have time to think about whether or not I hate him. My premise is to defend the weakness of the rest of my family out of duty and love for them... not because I hate the intruder who may want to harm all of us. I problably have more murder in my heart in being angry with a boss, co-worker, friend etc....

And I don't care what anyone says about the those who hold a view of non-resistence (this is a general comment not a forum one).. they're not cowardly. It's easy to react to violence with violence, insult for insult. It was easy and perhaps even natural for Peter to grab his sword to defend Jesus. It would be easy for me to take a swing at someone who shoved me (and I have back in my youth, it was a 'no brainer'. but I looked and acted just like the world expected me to). And it would be easy for me to hate those who oppose me and love the ones who love me.

..........................

Luke 6

32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
................................

This is the peculiarity of God's people that Peter speaks of.

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ccrider writes....

"I hope we can agree that the vulgarity of some of these people you describe is not a scriptural issue but one of personal character. Vulgarity doesn't discriminate between views... that's been proven on this forum."

I think that is a great point.

JOe you wrote........

"It isn't about following the dictates of Jesus either. It is about trusting His finished work, whether in the penthouse or the foxhole."

I disagree with that point, I believe it is both. Who are the children of God? Is it not those who do the will of the Father ? You can trust in what He did but if you flagrantly dis-regrard HIs commandments, then that tells a story. I do believe however, that those who genuinly know Him, their greatest desire in this life would be to do His will and to please Him...............Frank

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The Biblical Basis of Nonresistance

We live in a strife-torn world. We have no choice in the matter. From north to south and from east to west, the blight of strife is everywhere. The practice of nonresistance presupposes that the saint finds himself in a strife-torn world.

Nonresistance was not needed in the Garden of Eden. Neither will there be any occasion for it in heaven. But at this stage of history, we live in a fallen world, inhabited by many people who do not know the way of peace (Romans 3:17).

The Origin and Spread of Strife
Genesis 3 tells us of the spoiling of a congenial relationship; let us call it man's first quarrel with God. Genesis 4 follows very closely with the story of man's first quarrel with man. Before Cain killed Abel, however, his father, Adam, had started the habit of blaming someone else. He blamed his wife after he had committed with her the first act of disobedience to God. From the sequence of those happenings, we learn that strife between man and man is the inevitable result of an impaired relationship between man and God.

After the Fall, it did not take long for the fighting spirit to become deeply embedded in fallen human nature. If a man wants his way in preference to God's way (Isaiah 53:6), he will likewise want his way in preference to his neighbor's way. A world in which each person wants his own selfish way is bound to generate a great deal of interpersonal and intergroup conflict. Even large-scale wars have selfishness as their underlying source. The prevalence of this conflict in society has necessitated God's call to His people to be nonresistant in the midst of a strife-torn world.

Restraining Measures Introduced
Following the Flood, lest the earth be quickly filled with violence again (Genesis 6:13), God introduced restraining measures. Noah was told, "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man" (Genesis 9:6). Possibly this was the point at which God implemented the principle of civil government. Clearly, this announcement was designed to deter crime. The offender was not to go free as Cain seemingly did.

The note at the conclusion of this announcement highlights the sanctity of human life: "For in the image of God made he man." This is God's call to stop and consider: "That person on whom you are tempted to inflict harm is My workmanship and bears My image."

After calling to Himself a covenant people, God gave them laws. Some of these were civil in nature, for God knew the degree to which they remained a carnally-minded people, given to strife. In the Ten Commandments, murder was forbidden (Exodus 20:13). Furthermore, personal retaliation was prohibited, and legal retaliation was restricted to a just and equivalent injury (Leviticus 24:20).

The Envisioned Ideal
The spiritual restoration of man has always been God's ultimate purpose. God's ideal, in terms of human relations, is depicted in the words of Isaiah 11:9: "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain." However, the full realization of this goal needed to wait until the arrival of a new stage in God's plan. Therefore, the Old Testament was an era during which God depended heavily upon outwardly imposed restrictive measures. And since today most people still choose to remain in their unregenerate state, the need for restrictive laws continues.

How Does This Relate to You?
In a very direct way. Unavoidable consequences are attached to living in this kind of world. Like everyone else, you will at times be taken advantage of, mistreated, and falsely accused. At some time or other, you will likely become the object of someone's jealousy or hatred.

Furthermore, if you are a Christian, that fact alone will bring upon you additional suffering. For in the degree to which you live a blameless life, you will be a source of irritation to the ungodly people around you. Jesus forewarned His followers that this would be their normal lot. "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you" (John 15:18).

Where Do We Learn How to Respond to Such Treatment?
"Is there any word from the Lord?" (Jeremiah 37:17). There is, positively! From the lips of holy men of God has repeatedly come this claim: "Thus saith the Lord . . ." Under the prompting of God, this spoken word became the written Word.

This process, known as divine revelation, was progressive in nature. As "holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:21), more and more of God's plan and will for man became known. Hebrews 1:1 highlights the culmination of this process: "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son." During Christ's ministry, the rate of divine revelation accelerated as never before.

But still the process was not complete. Before His return to heaven, Jesus told His followers, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now" (John 16:12). When He came back to earth on the day of Pentecost in the Person of the Holy Spirit, He began to teach them these "many things." Under His direction, the New Testament Scriptures came into being. This explains why Paul could make the claim recorded in 1 Corinthians 14:37: "The things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord."

We now have our answer to the question in focus. The Bible is the highest and final authority by which Christians live. Therein every sincere seeker can learn how God wants him to respond to those who commit wrongs against him.

A Common Mistake
The normal place to start reading a book is at its beginning. The Bible begins with the Old Testament. Sometimes those who want to find the answer to a question get stalled in the Old Testament. The Old Testament, no less than the New Testament, does constitute a part of the divinely inspired Word. However, much of it was designed to be temporary and preparatory in nature.

Since, as has been shown, God revealed His will for man gradually, it is not surprising to find in Old Testament times, even among the people of God, a lower ethical standard than what God requires now. Another reason for this difference lies in the unique characteristic of the Old Testament people of God. For reasons known best to God, He assigned to Israel the functions of both church and state. Accordingly, God supplied her with regulations to maintain law and order and to curb violence. Even capital punishment was to be administered for some crimes (Exodus 21). Further, Israel was God's agent to punish wicked nations. Unfortunately, this exception is built upon by many to justify participation in warfare today.

Early Appearances of Nonresistance
As already indicated, God sanctioned the use of coercive measures under specified circumstances during the Old Testament era. However, we must not allow this detail to distort the total picture. Even before the giving of the Law, the light of divine revelation was sufficiently bright to allow men to perceive that peaceable personal relationships were God's ideal.

Rather than becoming involved in a quarrel, Abram contented himself with the less-than-best choice of land (Genesis 13). Rather than striving for the wells his servants had dug, Isaac allowed the herdsmen of Gerar to take them from him (Genesis 26). Rather than taking revenge on his brothers for their mistreatment, Joseph chose to forgive them (Genesis 45). In their responses to those who wronged them, these Old Testament saints chose the way of peace.

In the Old Testament, strands of peace and nonresistance were woven into the Law and were held forth as the prescribed way for an Israelite to respond. (See Exodus 23:4.) According to Leviticus 19:18, loving one's neighbor as himself was mandatory. And in Proverbs 25:21, 22, the call for nonresisting love is so clear that a New Testament writer used it to strengthen his appeal to New Testament saints for nonresistant behavior. (See Romans 12:20.)

So then, what shall we conclude? Was nonresistance taught and practiced during the Old Testament era? Within certain limits, it definitely was. But for reasons already noted, it was not their total way of life.

Nonresistance Becomes a Rule Without Exception
This change was one of the many changes associated with the inauguration of the New Covenant. Arrangements that were preparatory and temporary in God's reckoning became outdated as His plan unfolded into its next stage.

Jesus announced this transition in the following significant passage: "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil" (Matthew 5:38, 39).

Because Christ not only brought the Word of God but also was Himself the Word personified, He could thus speak with an authority obvious to all. He identified Himself as the Lawgiver of the New Covenant.

In effect, He was saying that from now on it is going to be different for the people of God. There can be no more participation in war. Neither can there be any involvement in punishing evildoers and maintaining justice. These functions are incompatible with the role to which His New Covenant people are assigned. They are also incompatible with His higher-than-ever standard of Christian morality.

The Label Nonresistance
The passage in Matthew 5:39 is the source of the term nonresistance. It accurately reflects the meaning of our Lord's words that we are to "resist not evil." Jesus' following words clarify that the evil in focus is evil treatment. Like most nonresistance passages, this one needs very little interpretation; the meaning is obvious. Under no condition should we retaliate or in any way strike back at one who mistreats us.

Does This Prohibit Every Form of Resistance?
As shown in the following verses, the resistance prohibited is the kind to which the worldly man resorts. Spiritual resistance, the kind that saints must exercise to survive spiritually, is nowhere forbidden and, on the contrary, is expressly commanded (James 4:7). "We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against… spiritual wickedness in high places" (Ephesians 6:12). "The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds" (2 Corinthians 10:4). These Scripture verses reflect an often overlooked fact. In the most important battle of all (while their worldly neighbors remain passive), nonresistant Christians wage an intense warfare. Those who charge the nonresistant Christian with being a passive parasite are usually blind to the important contributions he makes to the preservation of society.

But It Sounds So Negative
Popular opinion today is anti-negative In many minds, positive thinking is almost equated with Christianity. The poorly instructed saint, influenced by this mentality, may hesitate to accept any teaching that carries a negative label. Nonresistance is that kind of label.

But do not be intimidated by public opinion. When He gave the Ten Commandments, God Himself employed a whole list of negatives. Christian behavior cannot be fully defined without employing some negatives. A person is a Christian not only by virtue of what he does but also by virtue of what he does not do. Nonresistance singles out one thing the true Christian does not do. When he is wronged, he does not in any way fight back.

Nonresistance Illustrated
To further explain the spirit of nonresistance, our Lord related four simple illustrations: "Whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away" (Matthew 5:39–42). These four responses reflect a similar spirit. Rather than retaliate, the nonresistant person patiently endures insult and even injury. When taken advantage of, he remains very gracious. If imposed upon, he goes beyond what is demanded of him. The fighting spirit is completely absent, and in its place is openhanded generosity. By using these illustrations, our Lord has drawn the portrait of a beautiful, nonresistant personality.

The Active Side of Nonresistance
To poorly informed people, the nonresistant person is viewed as a liability to society. Being thus misunderstood is part of the Christian's experience of bearing the reproach of Christ (Hebrews 13:13). Commonly overlooked is the fact that nonresistance is only part of the package of love. Nonresistance is love absorbing the wrongdoing of others.

But this love that God sheds abroad in the hearts of His regenerated children (Romans 5:5) is expressed in other ways. Because of love, the true child of God is able and required to do good, as opposed to evil. "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you" (Matthew 5:43, 44).

Even while the Christian absorbs mistreatment, he is to aggressively do good. This is possible and, in a sense, natural because agape love expresses itself in both ways—passively and actively, in nonresistance and in assistance.

Being Nonresistant Identifies a Person as a Child of God
After dwelling on the active aspects of nonresistance, our Lord introduced a further reason for choosing this way of life. Structure-wise, the verse that follows begins in the middle of an unfinished sentence. However, subject-wise, it forms a unit of its own. "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust" (Matthew 5:45).

Our claim to be His children ought to be verified by an actual likeness to Him. Our nonresistant love should be expressed in the ways outlined in verse 44 for this reason: so "that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven." The remainder of the verse suggests that more often than not, God is good to all, irrespective of how they treat Him. Doing likewise identifies a person as His child.

Being Nonresistant Identifies a Person as a Follower of Christ
Those who look with disfavor upon nonresistance are hard-pressed to reconcile their stance with the nonresistance of Jesus. The one perfect life that was ever lived revealed time after time that our Lord was consistently nonresistant. How can anyone ignore His example and still claim to be His follower?

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously" (1 Peter 2:21–23). In this passage, the nonresistant aspects of His life are expressly singled out for us to pattern after.

Nonresistance Is the Way of the Cross in Human Relations
The typical worldling is quick to protect his supposed rights and to employ physical force or the arm of the law to keep others in their place. He views giving in or allowing oneself to be mistreated by others as a symptom of weakness. In contrast, the Christian follows the example of his Lord and chooses the way of the cross in human relations, rather than inflicting suffering on others. Paul chided the Corinthians because they employed the law against each other when they ought to have rather suffered themselves to be defrauded (1 Corinthians 6:7). When the apostles were beaten, they "rejoiced that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name" (Acts 5:41).

In Hebrews 10:34, we read of Christians who "took joyfully the spoiling of [their] goods." These soldiers of the cross demonstrated fortitude of the highest order. Only by being nonresistant can a Christian be consistent, for whoever really loves his neighbor as himself will not in any way harm him.

Being Nonresistant Identifies a Person With the Kingdom of Christ
Colossians 1:13 says that saints have been delivered from the power of darkness and have been translated into the kingdom of God's dear Son. Every living person belongs to one of these two kingdoms, either the kingdom of darkness or the kingdom of Christ.

This two-kingdom concept appears also in Romans 13:1–7. In that passage, the pronouns he and they are employed to designate an officer of the state; the pronouns thee and ye are employed to identify the saints to whom the passage is addressed. The agent of the state "beareth… the sword," for "he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil" (Romans 13:4). Obviously, he cannot fill that role and also be consistently nonresistant. Nevertheless, Christians recognize that the civil officer is serving as an agent of God to administer justice in a society of evildoers.

Although we cannot serve as government agents, we ought not to be antigovernment in attitude. Our Anabaptist forefathers correctly asserted that the state is ordained of God outside the perfection of Christ. By making that assertion, they were acknowledging that the ethic of love and nonresistance is for Christians, not for the state.

In the following statement, our Lord spoke of the two kingdoms and the stark contrast between them: "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence" (John 18:36). Notice that the significant difference is the employment or nonemployment of violence. Every man must choose to identify with one or the other kingdom, for they are not sufficiently compatible to allow identity with both.

Nonresistance Allows God to Retain His Prerogative
As early as the time of Moses, God disclosed His prerogative: "To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence" (Deuteronomy 32:35). Centuries later, Paul the apostle, grounded his appeal for nonresistant living on this unchanging fact. "Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord" (Romans 12:17–19). In the light of this declaration, the wrongness of personal retaliation stands out in bold relief.

Nonresistance Is the Paradox That Promotes Peace
Being negative in name, nonresistance is nevertheless positive in expression. The above-quoted passage is followed by this note: "Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good" (Romans 12:20, 21). Exercising nonresistant love holds the best prospect of turning an enemy into a friend. In the withholding of physical force, there is an unleashing of spiritual force.

Nonresistance—coupled with assistance, motivated by love, and practiced in the Name of Christ—is the greatest peacemaking power on earth. In a world of violence, nonapologetic nonresistance is still the Bible way. And because it is the Bible way, it is the best way.


Merle Ruth


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Quote:
"Although we cannot serve as government agents, we ought not to be antigovernment in attitude. Our Anabaptist forefathers correctly asserted that the state is ordained of God outside the perfection of Christ. By making that assertion, they were acknowledging that the ethic of love and nonresistance is for Christians, not for the state."


Thank you for these articles Chapel.

I only hear in my heart, soul, spiirt - "WwJd?"

Who else or who better would be our example?


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"The typical worldling is quick to protect his supposed rights and to employ physical force or the arm of the law to keep others in their place. He views giving in or allowing oneself to be mistreated by others as a symptom of weakness. In contrast, the Christian follows the example of his Lord and chooses the way of the cross in human relations, rather than inflicting suffering on others. Paul chided the Corinthians because they employed the law against each other when they ought to have rather suffered themselves to be defrauded (1 Corinthians 6:7). When the apostles were beaten, they "rejoiced that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name" (Acts 5:41).

HI Chapel, I really enjoyed that article. Thanks for posting it.

In that day the Lord will use a razor hired from beyond the
River--the king of Assyria--to shave your head and the hair of
your legs, and to take off your beards also. In that day, a man
will keep alive a young cow and two goats. And because of the
abundance of the milk they give, he will have curds to eat. All
who remain in the land will eat curds and honey. In that day,
in every place where there were a thousand vines worth a
thousand silver shekels, there will be only briers and thorns.
--Isaiah 7:20-23 (NIV)

_______________________________________________________________

Quotation:
The greatest curse which can be entailed upon mankind is a
state of war. All the atrocious crimes committed in years of
peace--all that is spent in peace by the secret corruptions or
by the thoughtless extravagances of nations, are mere trifles
compared with the gigantic evils which stalk over the world in
a state of war. God is forgotten in war--every principle of
Christian charity is trampled upon.
... Sydney Smith (1771-1845), Wit and wisdom of the Rev.
Sydney Smith, New York: Redfield, 1856, p. 276

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chapel

Hi Jesus-is-God,

You are welcome, and yes WwJd?

Luke 18:7-8
[7] And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? [8] I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

It is abundantly clear what Jesus meant but it does not seem to matter what Jesus would do or what he has done; instead it is what is best or easiest for those who trample upon the word.

It is a sad day when the example of Jesus Christ, his disciples and the early church mean nothing to most in this country today. His word is so easily set aside with excuses of how it lacks clarity and how wonderfully fuzzy it is on most issues, you would think they were talking about a bill before the house instead of the word of God.

How strange it is that the very word of God that is pushed aside so carelessly is what Jesus Christ will use as the standard by which he will judge us all.

May the Lord help all to see his glorious light.

lee


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"you would think they were talking about a bill before the house instead of the word of God."

I have had that thought many times in discussions with people who may have forgotten that we were born-again to glorify God, this is our primary purpose on earth, and of course it starts with His Word.........Frank

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Leo_Grace

Gal 5:14-26 The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi chapel...

It is abundantly clear what Jesus meant but it does not seem to matter what Jesus would do or what he has done; instead it is what is best or easiest for those who trample upon the word.

It is a sad day when the example of Jesus Christ, his disciples and the early church mean nothing to most in this country today. His word is so easily set aside with excuses of how it lacks clarity and how wonderfully fuzzy it is on most issues, you would think they were talking about a bill before the house instead of the word of God.

How strange it is that the very word of God that is pushed aside so carelessly is what Jesus Christ will use as the standard by which he will judge us all.

I hope that you aren't referring to those of us who have prayed about this, studied it, and sought the face of God in regard to this -- and still see it differently that some of you do. It would be quite an arrogant accusation to accuse someone of "trampling upon the Word" when we are walking before God and His Word with a clear conscience. In regard to the idea of non-resistance, many of us have NOT "[i]so easily set aside with excuses[/i]" nor do we think that "[i]the example of Jesus Christ, his disciples and the early church meant nothing[/i]."

In fact, many of us who disagree with some particular arguments of "non-resistance" ideology are just as passionate about the Jesus Christ and the Word of God as those who so easily reject our perspective about these passages and certain aspects of this view.

May the Lord help all to see his glorious light.

May the Lord help ALL OF US to see His glorious light with the vision and mind of Christ. I suspect that some of us who think that we have already "seen the light" in certain instances might be surprised when we actually see it in truth.

S
sermonindex


chapel wrote:
Hi Jesus-is-God,

You are welcome, and yes WwJd?

Luke 18:7-8
[7] And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? [8] I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

It is abundantly clear what Jesus meant but it does not seem to matter what Jesus would do or what he has done; instead it is what is best or easiest for those who trample upon the word.

It is a sad day when the example of Jesus Christ, his disciples and the early church mean nothing to most in this country today. His word is so easily set aside with excuses of how it lacks clarity and how wonderfully fuzzy it is on most issues, you would think they were talking about a bill before the house instead of the word of God.

How strange it is that the very word of God that is pushed aside so carelessly is what Jesus Christ will use as the standard by which he will judge us all.

May the Lord help all to see his glorious light.

lee


WwJd!

That's all we're left with - how true.

S
sermonindex

It is a sad day when the example of Jesus Christ, his disciples and the early church mean nothing to most in this country today.
We should expect this to be normal with the world. The world does not love Jesus Christ. His peace is not the same as worldly peace and the truth is thrown down because men love darkness rather than light.

It's within the body that we should be most concerned in taking what the Apostles have said lightly. There is a false Christian front called the "Christian Right" and politically speaking is rather frightening, though it has the face of a Christian, it's inner workings are not. The bible tells us to pray for our government, not put him down or tear him apart. It wouldn't surprise me in the least that this Christian political movement will one day persecute the "called out" ones.

C
ChrisJD

Hi again everyone,

ccrider, I think you brought up an important passage here:


"Paul gives a contrast here between the world and the remnant church. One contrast is concerning war... "we do not wage war as the world does"..
What did Paul mean by 'war' as it pertains to the world?? Is it anything other than the obvious?? How about weapons?? Paul says "we fight not with the weapons of the world". What does he mean by 'weapons of the world'? And then in describing us says: 'on the contrary'??"


I think it shows the contrast between how the people of God [b]advance the Kingdom of God[/b] and the ways that the kingdoms of this world are sometimes enlarged or defended.


That said, I think it is also clear that by this, Paul said nothing about how those who are Christians may act within those earthly Kingdoms, when serving them(Php 4:22, Luke 3:14).


It reminds me I think of how it seems another passage of Scripture could be misrepresented if it is not taken in its entirety and within the context.

I'm thinking of when the Lord Jesus said that if His Kingdom were of this world, [b]His followers would fight[/b].


Is that what He said?

No. Not entirely. He said they would fight, [b]so that He would not be delivered to the Jews[/b].


Some of HIs followers most certainly do fight. That is His Angels for sure.

He is also called the Lord of Hosts. THe Lord of Armies.

General of the Universe.

S
sermonindex

I suspect that some of us who think that we have already "seen the light" in certain instances might be surprised when we actually see it in truth.
This is a true saying and worthy of all acceptation. How many of us can say that we have seen the light only to be blindsided by the Truth? I'll be the first to admit it.

S
sermonindex

I think that this current thread ties in with this one............

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=30764&forum=40

C
ChrisJD

Chris,


"It would be quite an arrogant accusation to accuse someone of "trampling upon the Word" when we are walking before God and His Word with a clear conscience."

Chris, I appreciate this. How serious it is to accuse others like this.


God knows each of our motives.


S
sermonindex

Is Christianity really a violent religion? And is Islam really a peaceful religion?
In the material world, the world that we see, Christianity is a peaceful movement. In the Spirit it's quite violent.

In the flesh, we wrestle not with flesh and blood, but we wrestle with spiritual wickedness in high places. Our place is not to raise up a hand to any man, but rather give place to wrath, meaning, let those that wish to do you harm, do you harm, for our LORD will take care of those who harm His body.

There are certain ways that we have accepted in the Americas that we as Christians should fight back in the flesh, and this is wrong, this is not Christ at all. Many people have been saved just for the fact that they have harmed a believer. Truth was meant to be badgered, was meant to be trampled on, likewise those who stand for it are treated the same way. We MUST allow these things to come upon us, because we who live godly in this life shall suffer persecution. Just as Christ and all those that stood for His name, all have hazarded their lives for Jesus, so we must become that people that will not raise a hand against our neighbour but with all longsuffering endure hardness as a good soldier.

We also have accepted this idea that God will always protect us. Yes there is protection, but not all the time. Paul was stoned and left for dead. The promise is that He'll never leave us nor forsake us. Paul was left for dead, but God did not forsake him, God revived him and he rested till he was fit to continue the journey. Some of us may be rounded up in a gymnasium and shot on the spot. In death, our protector has secured our release from this physical cage, death where is your sting, O grave where is your victory? So in a sense, God has protected us even at death.

I think we need to understand the gospel a little bit more clearly regarding this subject, because Paul was eager to go up to Jerusalem, even if it meant death. When Jesus was facing His death, He endured the cross because of the joy that was set before Him. There is something about the gospel that they "heard" that convinced them that this was worth dying for. It was as if they wanted to die, to be free from this bondage that held them down. They certainly were not looking for it but when they faced it, instead of crying they were heard praising God. Even the testimony of those that were being burned to death, they glorified God. These people seemed to be looking for a city who's builder and maker is God, they seemed to long to be there instead of here. They saw something that we seem to be missing. I think we really haven't "heard" the gospel like they did.

S
sermonindex

"They certainly were not looking for it but when they faced it, instead of crying they were heard praising God. Even the testimony of those that were being burned to death, they glorified God. These people seemed to be looking for a city who's builder and maker is God, they seemed to long to be there instead of here. They saw something that we seem to be missing. I think we really haven't "heard" the gospel like they did."

Amen brother, amen. This generation, or the next may well face these very issues. Is the most important thing to preserve our rights? Or is it to glorify God? Some may say both, I would respectfully disagree. Check out the post that I gave a link to, it is very insightful........Frank

C
ChrisJD

Is the most important thing to preserve our rights? Or is it to glorify God?


We will certainly not glorify God by accusing others of trampling God's word.

God gave His people no such right.

C
chapel

ccchhhrrriiisss,

Please forgive me for failing to realize you would take this personal. Let me assure you ccchhhrrriiisss that if I was going to accuse you I would address you by name.

I find it disconcerting how you take offense by dissecting a sentence and changing the issue into something you say is about you.

There is an old saying that applies to all of us, “If the shoe fits, wear it.”

Now to the issue at hand.

John 8:31-32
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; [32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Galatians 6:7-9
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. [8] For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [9] And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

1 Peter 2:21-23
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: [22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: [23] Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

1Tim. 6:1
1All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered.
NIV

Only the truth of Jesus Christ will give us peace and make us free, everything else leads into bondage.

lee

S
sermonindex

"It reminds me I think of how it seems another passage of Scripture could be misrepresented if it is not taken in its entirety and within the context.

I'm thinking of when the Lord Jesus said that if His Kingdom were of this world, His followers would fight.

Is that what He said?
No. Not entirely. He said they would fight, so that He would not be delivered to the Jews.

Some of HIs followers most certainly do fight. That is His Angels for sure." Chris JD

If we're talking context then I think we can agree that the 'context' that is supposed to lend to objectivity can be very subjective. When you say that Jesus was talking about His Kingdom not being of this world or else His people would fight to prevent His arrest I fail to see this in the context you do, especially given the fact that this event was after the sermon on the mount and not long after His rebuke of Peter drawing a sword to prevent Jesus' arrest. As far as the Angels, I'm not sure how that adds any context to us here.. when Jesus spoke He was speaking to us not them. And His lordship over the armies is not the armies of Iran, Russia etc.... He was not a military leader of this world while He was doing His Father's work here.

Jesus did say that He came not to bring peace but a sword. So what did He mean by 'sword' as the Bible does not mention Jesus with a physical sword and record Jesus actually rebuking Peter for weilding one in His defense? Could He be talking about the sword of truth? When He comes back the sword will be the word of truth from His mouth. The sword is described this way in many instances:

Ephesians 6:17
Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Revelation 1:16
In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

I believe when Jesus comes back it will be this sword that will judge the attitudes of the ungodly penetrating their spirit so deeply that they cannot deny, dismiss, excuse or ignore their rebellion against their Savior. We are to use this same sword for ourselves... now... to judge our attitudes and become perfected. The Word of God is certainly a weapon, albeit 'otherworldly'.


S
sermonindex

As I said before, there is "a time of war, and a time of peace." There was a time for Jesus to "turn the other cheek", and there is a time that this same Jesus will "smite the nations" and "tread the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God". He is a "man of war", and there are times when he 'wars', both physically and spiritually.

Each thing has its place, there simply is "a time of war, and a time of peace." To make hard and fast rules, with regards to matters such as these is to put the flesh on display. Matters like these are for Christians to learn to respond to the leading of the Spirit.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi chapel...

Please forgive me for failing to realize you would take this personal. Let me assure you ccchhhrrriiisss that if I was going to accuse you I would address you by name.

I find it disconcerting how you take offense by dissecting a sentence and changing the issue into something you say is about you.

There is an old saying that applies to all of us, “If the shoe fits, wear it.”


Actually, I didn't take it [i]personally[/i]. Rather, I am concerned with an accusation directed toward ALL of those who disagree with your views is unhealthy. It seems that, in your earlier statement, you have dismissed ALL of those who disagree with your views as if they are "[i]trampling upon the Word[/i]," believe that the Word (in regard to those who disagree) is "[i]so easily set aside with excuses[/i]," or think that "[i]the example of Jesus Christ, his disciples and the early church meant nothing[/i]" in the hearts of those who disagree with your view. Do you see the difficulty with such bold, blanket accusations directed at those who merely disagree with your view on this issue? Like I was saying, there are many of us (yes, I do count myself amongst them) who have prayed diligently and with honesty and sincere integrity, studied the Scriptures prayerfully, and yet have derived an opinion that is slightly different than your own.
There is an old saying that applies to all of us, “If the shoe fits, wear it.”

Yes, but I think that it is best if the Lord Himself is the one choosing the shoes, so to speak (rather than the perspective of one man...or even a group of men). There are true believers who believe that merely have a different view than the various views with the non-resistant segment.

C
chapel

ccchhhrrriiisss,

I believe you hit the nail on the head when you write:

There are true believers who believe that merely have a different view than the various views with the non-resistant segment.

“The non-resistant segment” as you put it is considered almost as a cult by the majority of the American church. We are accused of being anti-American, anti-cultural, sissies, and cowards; Pacifist, Socialist, and Anarchist.

The bottom line is to cause people to be afraid, be very, very afraid; because the non-resistant segment will lead us all into captivity and horrible suffering.
This is all done by appealing to peoples emotions with hypothetical questions to cause fear and take the subject off the teachings of Christ and unto the wisdom of man.

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Col. 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

The doctrine of just war is based “after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

Thus as Paul declares above, it spoils the believer through philosophy and vain deceit, not based on the word of God but emotions and traditions of men based on the principles of the world, which cannot or ever will be of Christ.

1 Peter 2:21-23
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: [22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: [23] Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

1 John 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.


A segment, yes even peculiar:

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, [12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; [13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; [14] Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. [15] These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Titus 2:11-15

May the love and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ lead us into all truth.

lee

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi chapel...

“The non-resistant segment” as you put it is considered almost as a cult by the majority of the American church. We are accused of being anti-American, anti-cultural, sissies, and cowards; Pacifist, Socialist, and Anarchist.

The bottom line is to cause people to be afraid, be very, very afraid; because the non-resistant segment will lead us all into captivity and horrible suffering.
This is all done by appealing to peoples emotions with hypothetical questions to cause fear and take the subject off the teachings of Christ and unto the wisdom of man.


I'm not sure what you mean by this, because I have hardly seen anything resembling this in discussions amongst believers. Which "hypothetical" questions are you referring to that are purposed to "cause fear and take the subject off the teachings of Christ and unto the wisdom of man?" And, are you just ASSUMING that such questions are meant to change the subject...or to clarify the depth of the "non-resistant" opinion?
The doctrine of just war is based “after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
Earlier, I made a distinction between the idea of a "just war" and a "just cause." A just war deals with nationalism, patriotism and ideas of diplomacy vs. military response. The concept of a "just cause" is a view that there are reasons for which men can "interfere" in the issues of this world. For instance, as a married man, the Scriptures tell me that I will concern myself with the "affairs of this world" (I Corinthians 7:32-35). It doesn't make someone less spiritual to take care of his family. In fact, to neglect those needs would make such a man "worse than an infidel" (I Timothy 5:8). It is my view that there are causes that invite (and perhaps, [i]require[/i]) involvement and perhaps to some extent, resistance.

Moreover within this discussion, I still cannot see a valid Scriptural argument that invokes complete and utter non-involvement in certain participation within this world. Why am I saying this? I have read this present debate...and many of the previous debates on this issue...and have prayerfully considered and studied this issue. Yet I still do not embrace some of what is taught by the "non-resistant" segment of believers.

More importantly, I think that it is unwise to dismiss such believers in the manner that as pointed out earlier. This is why I raised issue with comments that seemed to accuse those who disagree with this non-resistant viewpoint as "[i]trampling upon the Word[/i]," or treat the Word in a manner that "[i]so easily set aside with excuses[/i]," or think that "[i]the example of Jesus Christ, his disciples and the early church meant nothing[/i]" in the hearts of those who disagree with the "non-resistant" view.

Col. 2:8
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

The doctrine of just war is based “after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

Thus as Paul declares above, it spoils the believer through philosophy and vain deceit, not based on the word of God but emotions and traditions of men based on the principles of the world, which cannot or ever will be of Christ.

I'm not sure that I get the same thing out of that verse as you do. It is quite an accusation to claim that sincere believers who disagree with you are "spoiled" or guilty of embracing "philosophy and vain deceit not based on the Word of God but emotions and traditions of men." I can't speak for others, but there are very real reasons based upon SCRIPTURE that cause me to have the persuasion that I do. To dismiss it otherwise is just plain wrong.

Does this make any sense? Many of us have prayed, sought the Lord's heart on this matter, and studied the Scriptures thoroughly, yet don't embrace some of those same exact notions as some of what is taught by "non-resistance" brethren.

S
sermonindex

HI Chapel,

I believe that you have hit the nail on the head :-) (a lot of nails going around) when you write.....

"The bottom line is to cause people to be afraid, be very, very afraid; because the non-resistant segment will lead us all into captivity and horrible suffering.
This is all done by appealing to peoples emotions with hypothetical questions to cause fear and take the subject off the teachings of Christ and unto the wisdom of man."

Time and again you see this. My personal belief is that many Christians are afraid of persecution and standing up against the crowd. It is ironic therefore for people who follow the Biblical mandate as they see it, to be accused of cowardice. In WW11 men who served in the Merchant Navy in Britain were actually spat on in the streets because they were considered "cowards." Ironically they ended up having a greater casualty rate that the Royal Navy, but the point being that public sentiment was such, that there was no room for objectors of any kind. True Christianity will always be found in the minority, the path is narrow and very few there are that find it......Frank

L
Leo_Grace

Dear chapel,

You said:

Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

The doctrine of just war is based “after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” Thus as Paul declares above, it spoils the believer through philosophy and vain deceit, not based on the word of God but emotions and traditions of men based on the principles of the world, which cannot or ever will be of Christ.


As one of those who has not fully agreed with you in your doctrine of non-resistance, let me say that you are placing us at the opposite extreme when we have not taken such a position. Just because I disagree with total non-resistance doesn't in any way make me a promoter of war or "eye for eye" justice.

I believe that, if there is any command in Scripture that we must all adhere to at all times and without variation among brothers, its is this:

Mt 22:36-40 Jesus replied: [color=CC3300]“ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”[/color]

This is where fulfillment of God's will is. We must pray at all times and follow the lead of the Holy Spirit in each situation that may confront us, with the greatest command of God in our hearts.

It is likely that in most instances, we will be called by the Spirit not to resist, and as servants of the Most High, we must obey. But there might be times when the Spirit will call us to resist something for the good of others whom we love - this call I will also obey.

As I told you before, I understand the teaching of the Sermon on the Mount differently than you do, and believe me - it is not for lack of prayer or meditation on my part. I must honor the understanding that the Holy Spirit has given me about these verses, and as I said before, I respect your view of it, if that is what the Spirit has given you.

If you are following Christ's teaching as revealed to you by the Spirit, so am I. There is no need to accuse us of disobedience or being flippant about God's teaching because it is simply not true.

C
ChrisJD

Hi ccrider,


About this,

"When you say that Jesus was talking about His Kingdom not being of this world or else His people would fight to prevent His arrest I fail to see this in the context you do, especially given the fact that this event was after the sermon on the mount and not long after His rebuke of Peter drawing a sword to prevent Jesus' arrest."


I don't understand what you mean.

Maybe I can try to rephrase the point I hoped to make:


It is my understanding that John 18:36 is sometimes made refrence to in suggesting that the Lord Jesus taught that His followers do not fight, and that a [b]portion[/b] of the verse is qouted to that end; the implication being, that only those who are of the world fight in carnal wars.


My suggestion was that by only qouting a portion of the verse, the statement is being misrepresented. The rest of the verse is a distinct qualification as to what fighting and for what purpose the Lord was speaking of.

No, His followers would not be allowed to fight in order that He be delivered from the very thing HE came into the world to accomplish!


The verses and events that you mentioned do correspond to this same context and demonstrate that this saying had a specific refrence in view(the accomplishment and entrance of the Kingdom of Heaven) and that [b]it is not a general statement[/b] about whether or not anyone that follows Christ [u]would ever[/u] be involved in a war.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi appolus...

Time and again you see this. My personal belief is that many Christians are afraid of persecution and standing up against the crowd. It is ironic therefore for people who follow the Biblical mandate as they see it, to be accused of cowardice. In WW11 men who served in the Merchant Navy in Britain were actually spat on in the streets because they were considered "cowards." Ironically they ended up having a greater casualty rate that the Royal Navy, but the point being that public sentiment was such, that there was no room for objectors of any kind.
Personally, I think that it takes quite a bit of courage and resolve to hold to a "non-resistant" view. In fact, I don't know that I have ever heard a true believer make such a claim (that "non-resistant" brethren are "cowards"). I don't know how it fits into the conversation, but I would certainly agree that no one should make such an unwarranted accusation toward any of the brethren who hold to a "non-resistant" viewpoint.
True Christianity will always be found in the minority, the path is narrow and very few there are that find it.
Amen! And, of course, those of us who don't adhere to certain aspects of the "non-resistant" view but are still part of the "True Christianity minority" should hold our heads up as we, too, lift up our eyes to the Lord. None of us should worry about being pointed out, scolded or having our faith dismissed if we are wholeheartedly walking before the Lord with a clear conscience. This is true of non-resistance brethren and those who might disagree with such a position.

:-)

C
ChrisJD

"None of us should worry about being pointed out, scolded or having our faith dismissed..."

Yes Chris,

There is more than one way to assult our fellow man.

S
sermonindex

Anyone ever wonder why Peter still had a sword when he was with Christ?

EDIT:
First there was a time when he didn't need one, (Luke 22:35), then there was a time when he did need one (Luke 22:36).

S
sermonindex

About this,

"When you say that Jesus was talking about His Kingdom not being of this world or else His people would fight to prevent His arrest I fail to see this in the context you do, especially given the fact that this event was after the sermon on the mount and not long after His rebuke of Peter drawing a sword to prevent Jesus' arrest."

I don't understand what you mean. Chris JD

I guess what I mean is if we talk about 'context' we can point to the sermon on the mount when Jesus ministered to potential believers. We can let scripture provide this context. He said:
.........................

Eye for an Eye
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[a] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[b] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[c] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
.........................

Subsequent to this event Jesus was arrested and Peter drew his sword and was rebuked by Jesus. And after His arrest, Jesus told Pilot the verse that we have been discussing concerning 'His Kingdom' verses the world and how if His Kingdom was here His folllowers would resort to wordly weapons to defend Him. To me the chronology of what Christ said and did provides some context. Sermon on the Mount, Peter's rebuke, Pilot's lesson on His Kingdom and His followers. These three events don't contradict eachother. In fact Jesus lived by example when He said 'love your enemies' by actually healing the ear of one of His enemies. Just because He was destined for the cross doesn't preclude what He said or make those who arrested Him any less of an enemy. Jesus was talking to 'would be believers' when He preached the Sermon on the Mount. And His followers from that point on, as in Apostles such as Peter (with the exception of Gesthemane when he was rebuked), Paul, John, etc.. were not involved in any violent acts that weilded a sword. It's just not there. Instead they were persecuted and lived out what Jesus preached to all those people on the Mount. I guess given this context I fail to see how this isn't an example to the church.

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sermonindex

Anyone ever wonder why Peter still had a sword when he was with Christ? old joe

So he could be rebuked? I would think God foresaw that he would use it and His Son provided a subsequent lesson. I never really focused on Peter too much here, just the response of Christ.

I find it interesting that scripture indicates that he was told to buy one but there's nothing about him being told to use it (although a sword can be also be used to defend against animals or to 'kill and eat'). Had Peter been told to use it on humans Jesus would have not been justified in His rebuke.

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sermonindex

HI Chris,

You write....

" I don't know that I have ever heard a true believer make such a claim"

Just interested on how you determine who is a true Christian and who is not, wouldnt that be a judgment call and who could ever refute such a statement? If someone who is is non-resistant were to say on this thread that they had never met a true believer who believed in war and self-defence, would you let that statement stand? .........Frank

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ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi appolus,


You write....

" I don't know that I have ever heard a true believer make such a claim"

Just interested on how you determine who is a true Christian and who is not, wouldnt that be a judgment call and who could ever refute such a statement?


I say "true believer" meaning those type of believers who are much more obviously "true" than those who are often criticized by threads on this website. In other words, I mean "true believers" who are deeply passionate and hungry to know God more...and have had a "born again" experience...and who visit this website. Now, there are many more "true believers" than those on SermonIndex (of course). However, I used the words "true believers" selectively in order to emphasize the word "true" as opposed to the rhetoric that seems to dismiss the faith of those who disagree with someone's particular ideology.

If someone who is is non-resistant were to say on this thread that they had never met a true believer who believed in war and self-defence, would you let that statement stand?

No, because your statement would point out one group who agreed with such ideology as being "true believers" and the other, by default, would be dismissed as being something less than that. My statement did not make any such distinction. In fact, I was very conscientious to clarify in each of my posts that those who embrace "non-resistant" ideas are, in fact, "brethren." Yet, there was some wording that seemed somewhat condescending and insolent toward those of us who do not embrace some of the specific notions of "non-resistance." I pointed out those statements in several of my recent posts.

I would also like to clarify that I don't know any believers who are thirsty for war or violence. Rather, the opposite is true! Personally, I have not fought anyone since I became a believer. I have never "shot" anyone. I have no desire to do any such thing! In fact, I seriously don't know what I would do if I were attacked (personally). Would I fight back...or resist in a sense to stop the man from attacking me? I can't say. I know that I didn't when I was in high school when I was being mocked for my [u]faith[/u]. However, if I was in a position where my wife or family was in danger, I feel quite confident that I would do what I could to "resist" such an attack in order to take care of their needs. In fact, I think that I would do this with a clear conscience before God. After all, I am called to take care of the needs of my family (or be considered worse than an infidel - I Timothy 5:8) even if he must concern himself with the "affairs" or "things of this world" (I Corinthians 7:32-36).

Now, I have never been in the military, although I prayed about joining as recently as last year. I never received the "okay" to join from God (or my wife). Would I ever shoot a man if I had ever been in the military? I don't know. This is one of those "hypothetical" scenarios mentioned earlier, but I really don't concentrate on it. I would still point out that there was not any direct call to military men in the Old or New Testament who were admonished for military service or who were told to get out.

An angel appeared to a devout, God-fearing Centurion who "prayed always" named Cornelius in Acts chapter 10. Ironically, he was called these things BEFORE he met Peter and before the Holy Spirit had fallen upon him. The angel told Cornelius in regard to Peter, "[i]he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do[/i]" (Acts 10:6). Yet Peter never told him to get out of the military. Rather the Scriptures say, "[i]Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, 'Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him[/i]'" (Acts 10:34-35).

There were no words from Peter (or elsewhere in the Scriptures) that specifically forbade military service, defense of the weak, protection of your family, etc... In addition, God Himself is neither "pro-war" or "against war." Yet, at times in the past, God has told His people to go to war. In the future, our Lord will "make war" and lead the "armies of Heaven" against the remaining physical armies of the Anti-Christ (Revelation 19:11-15). Now, we all know that the weapons of our warfare are not "carnal" (or physical) in our spiritual war with the god of this age. Yet I have not seen a direct command in Scriptures to refrain from "resistance" or "involvement" in EVERY circumstance to the whims of this fallen world.

Regardless, I didn't write to necessarily share my views in any sort of attempt to persuade anyone. Rather, I am just concerned by some of the rhetoric that seems to dismiss the faith of those who don't embrace some or all of the tenants of "non-resistance." Like I said, many of us have prayed about this and studied the matter and yet still do not embrace all of the tenants of "non-resistance" teaching. And I think that we too have the Spirit of God.

"Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? if any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's."
- II Corinthians 10:7

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ChrisJD

Hi again everyone,


ccrider,


"I guess what I mean is if we talk about 'context' we can point to the sermon on the mount when Jesus ministered to potential believers. We can let scripture provide this context."


I agree. These and other passages are giving instruction to believers about the Kingdom of Heaven. In the same way that the passage in John [b]is not[/b](as I see it) making a statement about how believers might act while serving in legitimate roles in earlthy institutions and goverments, I do not believe the Lord Jesus was giving instruction to earthly goverments or their agents/representatives on how to conduct their affairs or defend their citizens, in the Sermon on the Mount.


For instance, I don't believe He was instructing goverments to turn the other cheek when their citizens are threatened.

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ccrider wrote:
Anyone ever wonder why Peter still had a sword when he was with Christ? old joe

So he could be rebuked? I would think God foresaw that he would use it and His Son provided a subsequent lesson. I never really focused on Peter too much here, just the response of Christ.

I find it interesting that scripture indicates that he was told to buy one but there's nothing about him being told to use it (although a sword can be also be used to defend against animals or to 'kill and eat'). Had Peter been told to use it on humans Jesus would have not been justified in His rebuke.

Nope, that's not it.

Josh 11:12 And all the cities of those kings, and all the kings of them, did Joshua take, and smote them with the edge of the sword, and he utterly destroyed them, as Moses the servant of the Lord commanded.

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

That same Jesus slays with a sword, just as Moses the servant of that same Jesus commands Joshua to do. Moses, Joshua, David, etc. all kiled another man, yet each are accounted as children of God. Now Joab and Saul on the other hand also killed other men, but they are accounted as enemies of God. The reason is that they did it at a time not of God's commanding.

The point is that there is a time for war and a time for peace. Peter fighting at that time was an attempt to prevent the sacrifice of Christ, which was not a time for war, but a time to allow peace to be made. The warfare would come later, that's why having a sword was commanded. And yet at a certain appointed time, he was to lay his life down.

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"For instance, I don't believe He was instructing goverments to turn the other cheek when their citizens are threatened." Chris JD

I agree, He wasn't talking to the government. Paul was pretty clear about the gov't role in protection but not so clear in our role in terms of permission to join in especially given what Christ said about how to treat enemies. Hence differing views on the subject. Wars must come, Jesus said, so that much is clear.

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Hi Old Joe. So I got it wrong again huh? Okay, we'll go ahead and leave it at that.

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wind_blows

Old_Joe wrote in his post:Peter fighting at that time was an attempt to prevent the sacrifice of Christ, which was not a time for war, but a time to allow peace to be made. The warfare would come later, that's why having a sword was commanded. And yet at a certain appointed time, he was to lay his life down.
++++
:-)And yet Peter did not die by the sword or in a physical battle. He died a martyr:-)

your little sis in Him
Elizabeth

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Chris, you write...

I say "true believer" meaning those type of believers who are much more obviously "true" than those who are often criticized by threads on this website. In other words, I mean "true believers" who are deeply passionate and hungry to know God more...and have had a "born again" experience...and who visit this website. Now, there are many more "true believers" than those on SermonIndex (of course). However, I used the words "true believers" selectively in order to emphasize the word "true" as opposed to the rhetoric that seems to dismiss the faith of those who disagree with someone's particular ideology."

I think that explanation is above my paygrade so I cannot comment. Let me ask you a simple question, since you took such offence to me putting words in your mouth the last time. To the best of your knowledge, walk with the Lord, prayer and study of the Word, is it Okay for a Christian to go to war? Now brother, I am begging you, that would be a yes or no
:-)

You write......

"In fact, I seriously don't know what I would do if I were attacked (personally). Would I fight back...or resist in a sense to stop the man from attacking me? I can't say. I know that I didn't when I was in high school when I was being mocked for my faith. However, if I was in a position where my wife or family was in danger, I feel quite confident that I would do what I could to "resist" such an attack in order to take care of their needs."

Okay, that is plain enough and I would have to agree with you when it comes to being personally attacked or if someone broke into my house and attacked my family or if I was to witness an attack as I walked along. I do not know what I would do either but I cannot say with any certainly that I would do nothing, in fact I think the opposite. In all things we should be led by the Spirit of God. I personally think you made a very couragous stance when you were in High School, not too many could do that and of course, having read your account, a glorious end was achieved. Again, you have Mr Elliot at the bottom of your posts, and a glorious end was achieved by he and the other Martyrs.

I think what may be missing from this thread is a study of the first 250 years of Christianity. How did they react? Did they fight for their rights in the political realm? Did they , as the Zealots did, fight a terrosist war against the Romans? Did they take jobs as magistrates? And indeed, when their very existance was threatened in 70 ad, did our Christian brothers fight to the death to preserve their culture and their very country? If not, why not? Surely, after all the arguments we have heard here about self-defence, there would be no greater human cause than to fight for the very survival of your country that was being destroyed, and yet not a single mention of it. The great majority of Apostles did die in 70ad as well, but not a heroic death in defence of their women and their country, but a Martyrs death for the cause of Christ. Much is made of defendings one's wife and family, and yet Christians , by the thousands, chose to die, wives and children and all at the mouths of lions rather than go into the public square, once a year, and pronounce Caesur a God. When a Christian family was destroyed in the arena by the lions it was not always popular with the Romans. Why? Well, they would go to the center of the theatre and kneel down in a circle and pray as the lions approached. The Romans booed as they wanted to see some sport, screaming and running for their lives and so on. They did not even resist in the ring. I wonder what they would make of modern day Christians? May the Lord give us all such a Spirit. Now, what was the results of all those Martyrs? The Gospel was spread over all the world and millions found salvation in Christ........Frank

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chapel

I think what may be missing from this thread is a study of the first 250 years of Christianity. How did they react? Did they fight for their rights in the political realm? Did they , as the Zealots did, fight a terrosist war against the Romans? Did they take jobs as magistrates? And indeed, when their very existance was threatened in 70 ad, did our Christian brothers fight to the death to preserve their culture and their very country? If not, why not? Surely, after all the arguments we have heard here about self-defence, there would be no greater human cause than to fight for the very survival of your country that was being destroyed, and yet not a single mention of it. The great majority of Apostles did die in 70ad as well, but not a heroic death in defence of their women and their country, but a Martyrs death for the cause of Christ. Much is made of defendings one's wife and family, and yet Christians , by the thousands, chose to die, wives and children and all at the mouths of lions rather than go into the public square, once a year, and pronounce Caesur a God. When a Christian family was destroyed in the arena by the lions it was not always popular with the Romans. Why? Well, they would go to the center of the theatre and kneel down in a circle and pray as the lions approached. The Romans booed as they wanted to see some sport, screaming and running for their lives and so on. They did not even resist in the ring. I wonder what they would make of modern day Christians? May the Lord give us all such a Spirit. Now, what was the results of all those Martyrs? The Gospel was spread over all the world and millions found salvation in Christ........Frank

Thank you Brother Frank you have raised some very good questions.

I wonder why the church today seems to so easily dismiss the examples of Christ, the disciples and the early church?

lee

Testimony of the earliest generations of Christians

Nonresistance, as discussed and taught in the earliest writings of Christians from the days of the Apostles to the Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325. This is a sampling of their consistent perspective, not an exhaustive list of references.

[In a defense to the Emperor regarding Christians:] "They comfort their oppressors and make them their friends; they do good to their enemies." - Aristides, circa AD 125, The Apology of Aristides, trans. from the Syriac, D.M. Kay / Univ. of Edinburgh; located in Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 9, p. 276, Eerdman's Pub., English modernized.

"We will not ask you to punish our accusers. Their present wickedness is sufficient punishment." - Justin Martyr, c. AD 160, ANF Vol. 1, p. 165

"We used to be filled with war, mutual slaughter, and every kind of wickedness. However, now all of us have, throughout the whole earth, changed our warlike weapons. We have changed our swords into plowshares, and our spears into farming implements." - Justin Martyr, c. 160, ANF Vol. 1, p. 254

"I do not wish to be a king. I am not anxious to be rich. I decline military command." - Tatian, c. 160, ANF Vol. 2, p. 69

"We have learned not to return blow for blow, nor to go to law with those who plunder and rob us. Not only that, but to those who strike us on one side of the face, we have learned to offer the other side also." - Athenagoras, c. 175, ANF Vol. 2, p. 129

"[Jesus] commanded them ... not only not to strike others, but even, when they themselves are struck, to present the other cheek ... not only not to injure their neighbors, nor to do them any evil, but also, when they are dealt with wickedly, to be long-suffering." - Irenaeus, c. 180, ANF Vol. 1, p. 408

"The philosophers will then with propriety be taken up in a friendly exposure, ... but not in the manner of avenging ourselves on our detractors. Rather, it will be for the purpose of their conversion. For vengeance is far from being the case with those persons who have learned to bless those who curse." - Clement of Alexandria, c. 195, ANF Vol. 2, p. 347

"The spiritual man never cherishes resentment or harbors a grudge against anyone even though deserving of hatred for his conduct." - Clement of Alexandria, c. 195, ANF Vol. 2, p. 540

"Paul does not merely describe the spiritual man as being characterized by suffering wrong, rather than doing wrong. Rather, Paul teaches that a Christian does not keep count of injuries. For Paul does not allow him even to pray against the man who has done wrong to him. For he knows that the Lord expressly commanded us to pray for our enemies." - Clement of Alexandria, c. 195, ANF Vol. 2, p. 548

"Christians are not allowed to use violence to correct the delinquencies of sins." - Clement of Alexandria, c. 195, ANF Vol. 2, p. 581

"[The pagan] Hippias is put to death for laying plots against the state. No Christian ever attempted such a thing on behalf of his brethren, even when persecution was scattering them abroad with every atrocity." - Tertullian, c. 195, ANF Vol. 3, p. 51
"If dragged to trial, [the Christian] does not resist." - Tertullian, c. 197, ANF Vol. 3, p. 110

"'Nation will not take up sword against nation, and they will no more learn to fight.' Who else, therefore, does this prophecy apply to, other than us? For we are fully taught by the new law, and therefore observe these practices ... [The new law] changes the primitive ferocity of swords and lances to tranquility. It remodels the primitive execution of war upon the rivals and enemies of the Law into the peaceful actions of plowing and cultivating the land." - Tertullian, c. 197, ANF Vol. 3, p.154

"Men of old were used to requiring 'eye for eye, and tooth for tooth' and to repay evil for evil, with usury! ... But after Christ has supervened and has united the grace of faith with patience, now it is no longer lawful to attack others even with words, nor to merely say 'fool,' without danger of the judgment ... Christ says, 'Love your enemies and bless your cursers, and pray for your persecutors'"- Tertullian, c. 200, ANF Vol. 3, p. 711

"If someone attempts to provoke you by physical violence, the admonition of the Lord is at hand. He says, 'To him who strikes you on the face, turn the other cheek also.' Let outrageousness be worn out by your patience. Whatever that blow may be, joined with pain and scorn, it will receive a heavier one from the Lord." - Tertullian, c. 200, ANF Vol. 3, p. 712

"For what difference is there between provoker and provoked? The only difference is that the former was the first to do evil, while the latter did evil afterwards. Each one stands condemned in the eyes of the Lord for hurting a man. For God both prohibits and condemns every wickedness. In evil doing, there is no account taken of the order ... The commandment is absolute: evil is not to be repaid with evil." - Tertullian, c. 200, ANF Vol. 3, p. 713

"Christ plainly teaches a new kind of long-suffering, when He actually prohibits the reprisals that the Creator permitted in requiring 'an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.'" - Tertullian, c. 207, ANF Vol. 3, p. 370

"The Lord will save them in that day even His people like sheep ... No one gives the name of "sheep" to those who fall in battle with arms in hand, or those who are killed when repelling force with force. Rather, it is given only to those who are slain, yielding themselves up in their own place of duty and with patience rather than fighting in self-defense." - Tertullian, c. 207, ANF Vol. 3, p. 415

"Shall a Christian apply the chain, the prison, the torture, and the punishment, when he is not the avenger even of his own wrongs? Shall he stand guard for others more than for Christ? Shall he do it on the Lord's Day, when he does not even do it for Christ Himself? Shall he stand guard before those temples that he has renounced? Shall he take a meal where the apostle has forbidden him? ... You will see by a slight survey how many other offenses there are involved in the performances of [military] camp offices. And we must hold them to involve a transgression of God's law." - Tertullian, c. 211, ANF Vol. 3, p. 99, 100.

Celsus, the pagan critic, says, "'[Christians] also have a teaching to this effect: that we should not avenge ourselves on one who injures us.' Or, as Christ expresses it: 'Whoever will strike you on the one cheek, turn the other to him also.'" - Origen, c. 248, ANF Vol. 4, p. 634

"We slander no one, for we believe that 'revilers will not inherit the kingdom of God.' And we read, 'Bless them that curse you; bless, and curse not.' Also, 'Being reviled, we bless.'" - Origen, c. 248, ANF Vol. 4, p. 654

"Do not willingly use force and do not return force when it is used against you." - Commodianus, c. 240, ANF Vol. 4, p. 212

"When a Christian is arrested, he does not resist. Nor does he avenge himself against your unrighteous violence even though our people are numerous and plentiful." - Cyprian, c. 250, ANF Vol. 5, p. 462

"We may not hate. And we please God more by rendering no return for wrong. Therefore, we exhort you to make satisfaction to God. Do this while you have the power, while there yet remains in you something of life ... We do not envy your comforts, nor do we conceal the divine benefits. We repay kindness for your hatred. In return for the torments and penalties that are inflicted on us, we point out to you the ways of salvation." - Cyprian, c. 250, ANF Vol. 5, p. 465

"The Christian has departed from rage and carnal contention as if from the hurricanes of the sea. He has already begun to be tranquil and meek in the harbor of Christ. Therefore, he should allow neither anger nor discord within his breath. For he must neither return evil for evil, nor bear hatred." - Cyprian, c. 250, ANF Vol. 5, p. 488

"Do no one any injury at any time; provoke no one to anger. If an injury is done to you, look to Jesus Christ. And even as you desire Him to forgive your transgressions, also forgive others theirs." - Theonas of Alexandria, c. 300, ANF Vol. 6, p. 161

"Does Venus Militaris also preside over the wickedness of [military] camps and the debaucheries of young men?" - Arnobius, c. 305, ANF Vol. 6, p. 478

"[True] religion is to be defended, not by putting to death, but by dying. Not by cruelty, but by patient endurance. Not by guilt, but by good faith. For the former belongs to evil, but the latter to the good ... For if you wish to defend religion by bloodshed, tortures, and guilt, it will no longer be defended. Rather, it will be polluted and profaned ... And, therefore, when we suffer such impious things, we do not resist even in word. Rather, we leave vengeance to God. We do not act as those persons who would have it appear that they are defenders of their gods, who rage without restraint against those who do not worship them ... What if [a man] rushes wherever injustice will call him? Such a man does not fulfill the duty of virtue. For he who tries to return an injury desires to imitate that very person by whom he has been injured. In short, he who imitates a bad man cannot be good." - Lactantius, c. 304-313, ANF Vol. 7, cf. pp. 157-160, 182-185

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Thank you again for this thread.

We don't realize that you and those who came before you are preparing us for what may in actuality come to this nation in our life-time.

If we don't prepare our hearts Now, while we still have a chance, we'll be facing the unthinkable.

I believe many here do not realize how many websites and forums are out there that are cleaning their guns and speaking openly of fighting back now.

I'm not a "traitor" to this nation nor to Israel but I've been called this, because I do not see taking up arms against the Government - even if they did hire foreign troops to help them.

I shouldn't have to post the URLs for all of the "Christian" sites and will not - but you decide for yourself if this is "Christian" or not.

IF foreign or domestic troops or any law-enforcement agency man-handles your wife or seperates you from your family or them from you - what are you going to do?

Dear GOD I'm so grateful for those who have prepared my heart for persecution or anything remotely like it. Amen!

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ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi appolus...

I think that explanation is above my paygrade so I cannot comment. Let me ask you a simple question, since you took such offence to me putting words in your mouth the last time. To the best of your knowledge, walk with the Lord, prayer and study of the Word, is it Okay for a Christian to go to war? Now brother, I am begging you, that would be a yes or no
Brother, I wasn't "offended" by the words that you seemed to place in my mouth ("[i]concerned[/i]" might be a better word). As I said before, I am not trying to convince anyone to see things the way that I do (or think that I do). Thus, my opinion about this matter isn't important enough to be begged for. I thought that I had stated my "position" about this matter plain enough. Since this wasn't clear enough: To the "best of my knowledge, walk with the Lord, prayer and study of the Word," I do not see anything in the Word of God that specifically PROHIBITS a Christian from serving in the military, defending the weak, or defending a family member.

Regardless of the difference in perspective that some of us might have, I am even more concerned with the rhetoric of some that would seemingly dismiss the faith of those with whom they disagree. I pointed out those specific words earlier. That is what I am more concerned about.


I think what may be missing from this thread is a study of the first 250 years of Christianity. How did they react? Did they fight for their rights in the political realm? Did they , as the Zealots did, fight a terrosist war against the Romans? Did they take jobs as magistrates? And indeed, when their very existance was threatened in 70 ad, did our Christian brothers fight to the death to preserve their culture and their very country? If not, why not? Surely, after all the arguments we have heard here about self-defence, there would be no greater human cause than to fight for the very survival of your country that was being destroyed, and yet not a single mention of it.

I disagree. The amount of historical literature of the early church is vastly limited. The early church didn't write many "chronicles" of the early believers. There are plenty of things that we do NOT know...simply due to the lack of written evidence. We don't know to what extent they involved themselves in the "affairs of this world" (I Corinthians 7). We are left mostly with what is found in the Word of God, and such instruction from the Word is the only [u]perfect[/u] example anyway. In fact, the Church already had problems within the first 50 years of its existence -- which is detailed in Paul's and Peter's epistles. Yet, we know that Cornelius was both a believer AND a centurion. We know that the "persistent widow" petitioned an unrighteous judge to move on her behalf. We know that Paul invoked his Roman citizenship and used the Roman legal system as a catalyst to take the Gospel to Caesar and Rome. We know that the Scriptures instruct believers to submit unto authorities (including kings and governors) and to even honor earthly kings (I Peter 2:13-17). In addition, the Scriptures warn those who would subvert authority and speak against it (Romans 13:1-7). I think that ChrisJD pointed out that there are other forms of resistance -- like harmful rhetoric -- that can be just as injurious as physical force.

The great majority of Apostles did die in 70ad as well, but not a heroic death in defence of their women and their country, but a Martyrs death for the cause of Christ. Much is made of defendings one's wife and family, and yet Christians , by the thousands, chose to die, wives and children and all at the mouths of lions rather than go into the public square, once a year, and pronounce Caesur a God.

Again, we are limited by the very little that is actually written about the life and times of the Early Church. Some may very well have refused to be released and face such a death or violence at the hands of persecutors. Yet we do not have the full record of every believer in the first 250 years of Church history.

Regardless, this is NOT what we are talking about here. I have already agreed that there might be some credibility to the argument that one might refuse resisting persecution personally for the Gospel's sake. Yet defending my wife or family, in most circumstances, is a different matter altogether. In addition, refusing to "resist" (either by physical or rhetorical methods) for the sake of the Gospel is different than required or optional service in the military.

I wonder what they would make of modern day Christians? May the Lord give us all such a Spirit. Now, what was the results of all those Martyrs? The Gospel was spread over all the world and millions found salvation in Christ.

Of course, we could ask the same about them. Not everyone in the early Church was perfect -- given the vast amount of reproof that makes up quite a bit of the epistles and the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Revelation. I haven't read many firsthand accounts of believers who silently went to the arenas to be fed to the lions or become targets for gladiators. I have read secondhand accounts that were written many, many years later (such as [i]Foxe's Book of Martyrs[/i] -- written more than 1500 years after the birth of the Church). Of course, this doesn't include the accounts of anyone who might have fled from persecution. In fact, Paul (when he was Saul) fled from persecution when he was let down through the city gates shortly after his conversion (Acts 9:25). While the stories of the early martyrs were great and faithful examples of many in the Early Church, the Gospel was spread by those who had NOT yet died.

I think that this is where the position of those of us who are not of the "non-resistant" movement is often misunderstood. I don't know any true believer who would be unwilling to die for the cause of Christ. I don't know any true believer who wouldn't be willing to lay down his life for the sake of the Gospel. I also don't know any true believers who are bloodthirsty men who are hoping to one day respond in violence. I have known many soldiers, and none of them ever told me that they looked forward to ending the life of another human being. One of my sisters' husband is a police detective. He prays every night that he doesn't have to hurt anyone in the line of duty. At the same time, I feel that it might be a duty for a believer to take up the cause of the needy, the weak, or in the protection of his family.

In fact, Jesus said, "[i]Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends[/i]" (John 15:13). I believe that I could just as readily defend my wife from a violent rapist as I would defend her from an attacking mountain lion. I believe that I could do this with a clear conscience. In addition, I still do not see anything in the Scriptures that would prohibit me from serving in the military of the nation that God has placed me. No person in the Old Testament was tried by the Law of Moses for killing while serving in military or defending their family (even though the Commandment says [i]Thou shalt not kill[/i]). It is because there were certain exceptions to the rule -- which was due to one precept that superseded the other. One might even point to the spanking of children (which [u]is[/u] a form of violence) as a Scriptural embrace of physical "resistance" that defiese "[i]turn the other cheek[/i]" because it is superseded by a greater command to instruct our children in the way that they should go.

Again, this is all beside the point. The underlying point that I have been trying to make is not to persuade anyone to see things the way that I might see them. Rather, I would caution anyone from dismissing the faith of those who do not adhere to all of the tenants of "non-resistance" ideology. Many of us are also true believers who walk with a clear conscience before God. Some of the wording expressed about those of us who might disagree with certain particular teachings of "non-resistance" appears to be just a bit condescending. We are treated (and even talked about) as if we are ignoring the Scriptures or the examples of the early Church. We are not. Many of us have prayed about this issue and studied it with sincerity and integrity before the Lord. While our conclusions might differ, I feel that it is unwise to resort to pretentious rhetoric regarding those with whom we merely disagree.

We can certainly agree to disagree. However, we need to continually treat the brethren with fraternal hospitality and unequivocal love as if they too are fellow members of the family of God. It is not my intention to persuade. I can merely share what I feel the Lord has led me in regard to this topic. However, I do feel that I should caution anyone from "talking down" to those of us who might not agree in regard to this topic. Of course, this goes both ways. We should not treat others like they are "lesser brethren" simply because they do not agree with what we think the Lord (or the Word) has shown us. I feel that some of the comments have been pointedly pernicious toward those of us who believe in limited forms of involvement or "resistance."

C
ChrisJD

Hi again everyone.

"The amount of historical literature of the early church is vastly limited. The early church didn't write many "chronicles" of the early believers."


This was my impression also but my knowledge of Christian History is limited.

I didn't see much of anything in the qoutes that were provided that spoke directly to their attitude about serving in goverments or in wars. I might have missed it though as I did not examine each one thouroughly. It looked as though they were all from about 150 AD and later also.


C
ChrisJD

Appolus brought up a good point:


"I think what may be missing from this thread is a study of the first 250 years of Christianity. How did they react? Did they fight for their rights in the political realm? Did they , as the Zealots did, fight a terrosist war against the Romans?"

But one that I think is limited in how far it may serve us today.


The Rome of the early Church is not the Britain or America of the 1600's and onward. While there may be some similarities, I believe there are profound differences. Christians in those countries are not having to refuse to go into the public square to offer a pinch of incense to Caesar because Caesar does not exist there and they are not facing death by lions in the arena because it does not exist there either. A closer example might be North Korea. And I wouldn't be surprised if the beleivers there live much like those of the most ancient churchs.


But we cannot fully follow the example of the early Church by trying to imitate what they did in the first century anymore than we can follow God or Christ by going to Jerusalem and trying to retrace the steps of Christ. Becuase the first century is gone. And the Jerusalem of the time of Christ is gone also.


The stage of the world has been moved and changed times and times again since then. The actors and the props from that time in history have come and gone as well as others since them.

While there is nothing new under the sun and what has been will be again, I do not beleive that means that there are not times and events and circumstances unique to every generation.

The Gospel came forth in the fulness of time, when Rome ruled the World. That is much different than say, when someone like William Penn founded the province of Pennsylvania.


A much different place than Rome. A much differnt man than Caesar.

C
ChrisJD

Now, what was the results of all those Martyrs?

In the forward to the book [i]Tortured for Christ[/i], the director of Voice of The Martyrs, Tom White writes:

Many today believe that a martyr is simply someone who dies for his faith. Unfortunately, by this definition we have lost the true significance and depth of martyrdom. St. Augustine once stated, “The cause, not the suffering, makes a genuine mar­tyr.” In his play Murder in the Cathedral, T. S. Eliot describes a martyr as one “who has become an instrument of God, who has lost his will in the will of God, not lost it but found it, for he has found freedom in submission to God. The martyr no longer desires anything for himself, not even the glory of ­martyrdom.”

In chapter one of the book, under a section titled [b]Working Undercover[/b] Pastor Wurbrand descirbes how one Christian Doctor played a part in his release:


When I was kidnapped by police and kept imprisoned for years in strictest secrecy, a Christian doctor actually became a member of the secret police to learn my whereabouts! As a secret police doctor, he had access to the cells of all prisoners and hoped to find me. All of his friends shunned him, thinking he had become a Communist. To go around dressed in the uniform of the torturers is a much greater sacrifice than to wear the uniform of a prisoner.

The doctor found me in a deep, dark cell and sent word that I was alive. He was the first friend to discover me during my initial eight-and-a-half years in prison! Due to him, word was spread that I was alive and, when prisoners were released during the Eisenhower-Khrushchev “thaw” in 1956, Christians clamored for my release and I was freed for a short time. If it had not been for this doctor, who joined the secret police spe­cif­ically to find me, I would never have been released. I would still be in prison—or in a grave—today.


If we may reflect on the significance of the lives and sacrifices of those who have given all at the hands of the governments of this world, we might also reflect on the sacrifices of those who have given all, within them, for the cause of Christ, or for righteousness in general.


We might think of someone like William Wilberforce and how he labored to end slavery in Great Britain.

We might also wonder too, what effect men and women might still have upon the governments of the free-world, if, in a clear conscience before God, they sacrficed even their political futures, in order to stand for Christ and for righteousness.


C
chapel

We could always look to the word of God, there is probably some direction for those who are serious about nonresistance.


Thou Shalt Not Kill

(Exodus 20:13 - Deuteronomy 5:17 - Matthew 19:16-19)

Nonresistance

Please note: the following Hebrew transliterations are used in this document:

Yeshua (Jesus)
Elohiym (God)
ha Mashiyach (the Christ)
ha Adon (the Lord)
Yahveh (the LORD)

Among the many heresies found within the realm of false Christianity here is one most outstanding. Before proceeding, the following references concerning truth, His word, knowing Him, and deception may be of interest to you.

"Then said Yeshua to those Jews which believed on Him, 'If ye continue in My Word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.' " Jn. 8:31-32.

"Yeshua answered them, and said, 'My doctrine is not Mine, but His that sent Me. If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of Elohiym, or whether I speak of Myself.' " Jn. 7:16-17.

"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." Jms. 1:22-25.

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to Me: seeing thou has forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children." Hos. 4:6.

"I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth... Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." I Jn. 2:21,24.

"And hereby do we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth in not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of Elohiym perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him." I Jn. 2:2:5.

"If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered, and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is My Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be My disciples. As the Father hath loved Me, so have I loved you: continue ye in My love. If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have keep My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." Jn. 15:6-10.

"They profess that they know Elohiym; but in works they deny Him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." Titus 1:16.

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Mashiyach. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great things if his ministers also shall be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their own works. " II Cor. 11:13-15.

"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived." II Tim. 3:13.

"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause Elohiym shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." II Thes. 2:9-12.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying ha Adon that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways: by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of." 2 Pet. 2:1-2.

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of Elohiym, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves men shall arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears." Acts 20:28-31.

"But speak though the things which become sound doctrine." Titus 2:1.

"And the servant of ha Adon must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if Elohiym peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." II Tim. 2:26.

"Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers." Titus 1:9.


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The heresy about to be addressed which denies Yeshua is the common belief that Yeshua allows his children to kill their fellow man in wartime, or in self defense, or to protect the life of another, or by capital punishment, or by the abortion of an unwanted, unborn child. Most people stumble on the fact that contrary to the first covenant, which permitted certain acts of killing, the New Testament prohibits such acts. The gospel states that "the law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Yeshua ha Mashiyach." Concerning the change that the New Testament has made from the Old, here are also some scriptures.


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" 'Behold, the days come,' saith Yahveh, 'that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.' " Jer. 31:31.

"Yahveh is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; He will magnify the law, and make it honourable." Isa. 42:21.

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Yeshua ha Mashiyach." Jn. 1:17.

"If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." Heb. 7:11-12.

"For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto Elohiym." Heb. 7:19.

"But now hath He obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, He saith, ' Behold, the days come,' saith ha Adon, 'when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith ha Adon. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith ha Adon; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: and they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know ha Adon: for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.' In that He saith, 'A new covenant,' He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Heb 8:6-13.

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross." Col. 2:14.

"For the grace of Elohiym that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great Elohiym and our Saviour Yeshua ha Mashiyach; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." Titus 2:11-14.

"By so much was Yeshua made a surety of a better testament." Heb. 7:22.

"And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: but their minds were blinded: for unto this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Mashiyach." II Cor. 3:13-14.

"But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; as it is written, 'Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.' " Rom. 9:31-33.

"Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, 'Behold I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on Him shall not be confounded.' Unto you therefore which believe He is precious; but unto them which be disobedient, 'the same is made the head of the corner,' and 'a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence,' even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light." 1 Pet. 2:6-9.

"For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens." Heb 7:26.


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It is completely wrong to justify killing by using examples from the Old Testament seeing that the New Testament has changed this. The following quotations from the New Covenant expose the fallacy of this commonly accepted, extremely serious, damnable heresy.


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"Do violence to no man..." Lk. 3:14.

"Recompense no man evil for evil..." Rom. 13:17.

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." Mt. 10:16.

"But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another..." Mt. 10:23.

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, 'Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment.' : But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry at his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:..." Mt. 5:21-22.

"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: for the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of Elohiym." Jms 1:19-20.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth': But I say unto you, that ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." Mt. 5:38-39.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbour and hate thine enemy.' But I say unto you, 'Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven...'" Mt. 5:43-45.

"Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of Man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy; for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets." Lk 6:22-23.

"Woe unto you when all men shall speak well of you! For so did their fathers to the false prophets. But I say unto you which hear, 'Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, bless them that curse you and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also." Lk. 6:26-29.

"Bless them which persecute you; bless and curse not." Rom. 12:14.

"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath; for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine; I will repay,' saith ha Adon. Therefore 'if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink; for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." Rom. 12:19-21.

"Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you...Ye have condemned and killed the just and he doth not resist you. Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of ha Adon..." Jms. 5:1,6-7.

"He was oppressed and afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth: He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He opened not his mouth." Isa. 53:7.

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Mashiyach also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps:... Who when He was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed Himself to Him that judgeth righteously." I Pet. 2:21,23.

"As it is written, 'For thy sake we are killed all day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.' " Rom. 8:36.

"And I say unto you my friends, be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea I say unto you, fear Him." Lk. 12:4-5.

"And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of Elohiym. For unto you it is given in the behalf of Mashiyach, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake." Php. 1:28-29.

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for My sake shall find it." Mt. 16:25.

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shalt cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Rev. 2:10.

Please see also:

"The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord." Mt. 10:24.

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of Elohiym, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world." Php. 2:15.

"Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: neither give place unto the devil." Eph. 4:26-27.

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through Elohiym to the pulling down of strong holds;) casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of Elohiym, and bringing into captivity every though to the obedience of Mashiyach." II Cor. 10:3-5.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Eph. 6:12.

"And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the alter the souls of them that were slain for the word of Elohiym, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, O Adon, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?' And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Rev. 6:9-11.

"And ye became followers of us, and of ha Adon, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: so that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. For from you sounded out the word of ha Adon not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to Elohiym-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to Elohiym from idols to serve the living and true God; and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Yeshua, which delivered us from the wrath to come." II Thes. 1:6-10.

"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolators, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." Rev. 22:14-15.

"Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal. 5:21.

"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." Rev. 13:10.

"Then said Yeshua unto him, 'Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.' " Mt. 26:52.

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 Jn 3:15.

Please help us publish this truth. Copy and distribute to others!
Nonresistance

S
sermonindex

The more Scripture the better.
Thank you Chapel, very much.


Here's one that may go along with this topic - :-(

[b]Growing Number of Detroit Pastors Wear Handguns in Pulpit[/b]
Thursday, October 01, 2009

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,558804,00.html?test=latestnews


Edit: Can't fix the link - so here's the [url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=Growing+Number+of+Detroit+Pastors+Wear+Handguns+in+Pulpit&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=] google search.[/url]

S
sermonindex

Hi ChrisJD,

I am sure that no one would argue with you that today is a different day that 2000 years ago. Yet, the principles are exactly the same. The title of this thread is to kill or be killed. Many have argued and stated that they have no problem with joining the army and going to war. Further, there can be no greater cause for joining the army and going to war than to defend your very homeland.

You could argue to the cows come home that was it right to join the army and fight in the Indian wars, or the war against Mexico , or the war against Spain or WW1 OR WW2 or Vietnam or Invading Panama or Desert Storm or Afghanistan or Iraq and that would be all well and good. Yet lets take it to the highest level, lets say an army has ammassed and is coming to invade America and destroy it completely so that it will be no more. Would that not be the war, above any wars, that would justify going to war for a Christian, to protect their culture, their heritage, their families their very existance?

This is what the Apostles and followers of Christ faced in 70 ad and they faced that for their country that had been around for 1500 years. Yet they did not fight to defend it. My question is why did they not fight to defend their country if the Scriptures allow for that? And remember, who knows what kind of NT literature the average Christian had access to in 70ad? And why were the majority of the Apostles killed this very same year? Could they have run into what Jeremiah ran into? Was the level of hatred of men of God elevated because of the intense political situation that Israel was in? Questions to ponder.........Frank

C
ChrisJD

Hi Frank,


"Yet, the principles are exactly the same."


I understand this, but I was responding to the specific examples that you mentioned which are not comparable today(in Western Countries).

"This is what the Apostles and followers of Christ faced in 70 ad and they faced that for their country that had been around for 1500 years. Yet they did not fight to defend it. My question is why did they not fight to defend their country if the Scriptures allow for that?"


The Lord Jesus specifically told them to flee when they saw Jerusalem encompassed with armies(Luke 21:20-22).

A warning given in several places in the scriptures(Luke 19:41-44, Mat 22:7).

W
White_Stone

Dear Jesus-is-GOD,

Fixed your link. Good catch.

[url=http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,558804,00.html?test=latestnews]Fox News - Growing Number of Detroit Pastors Wear Handguns in Pulpit[/url]

There is a time for everything. . . .

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Chapel...

Could you tell me the name of the brother that you quote as having written these words contained in your post?


Among the many heresies found within the realm of [b]false Christianity[/b] here is one most outstanding. Before proceeding, the following references concerning truth, His word, knowing Him, and deception may be of interest to you.

....

The heresy about to be addressed which denies Yeshua is the common belief that Yeshua allows his children to kill their fellow man in wartime, or in self defense, or to protect the life of another, or by capital punishment, or by the abortion of an unwanted, unborn child. Most people stumble on the fact that contrary to the first covenant, which permitted certain acts of killing, the New Testament prohibits such acts. The gospel states that "the law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Yeshua ha Mashiyach." Concerning the change that the New Testament has made from the Old, here are also some scriptures.

....

It is completely wrong to justify killing by using examples from the Old Testament seeing that the New Testament has changed this. The following quotations from the New Covenant expose the fallacy of this commonly accepted, [b]extremely serious, damnable heresy[/b].

By the way, I think that it is ridiculous to label any opinion or view that is contrary to the view of "non-resistance" to be "heresy." Rhetorically, this rejects those who does NOT practice this particular facet of "non-resistant" as "heretics."

It is one thing to disagree with other brethren on this issue. It is an entirely different thing to reject those individuals as "heretics."

S
sermonindex

Hi ChrisJD,

So, if I am reading you correctly, you are sating that if they did not have this specific warning that they would have stood and fought alongside the Scribes and the Pharisees and the ones who would eventually kill them in an effort to save their country? Please correct me if you are not saying that........Frank

S
sermonindex

Here is an interesting excerpt from John Wycliffe's "Seven deadly sins." We know how men treated this brother.......Frank

Chapter 13

Each man who is disposed to vengeance by irrational anger is like a devil that blasphemes against God, who is the proper one to punish His subjects. No man should take vengeance unless God commands him to, and shows him as His instrument how God would have that punishment delivered. Thus, each wrathful man blasphemes against God. According to civil law, no man may make battle unless he has the permission of his prince. Certainly an earthly prince is usually proud, and lacks the understanding to teach when men should fight, and therefore it is likely that worldly prince is the instigator of the battles that men now endure. I am certain that Christ is the king of peace and love, and guides men to the patience that flowed from His own human nature.

And here may we see how the devil’s interference deceives the people and moves them to fight. The devil takes for a fact that under the Old Law men were permitted to fight by the authority of God, and since He is the same God now, why should men not fight now? We agree with the devil’s claim that in the Old Testament it was lawful to fight. Scripture teaches us this. Under the New Law, it would now be lawful for us to fight if the same circumstances justified it as were present under the Old Law; otherwise, men should live in peace out of love for our God. Truly, men fought with God’s enemies under the Old Law to avenge wrongs committed against God and for no other reason. The same applies to men now, if their fighting is to be lawful. The second requirement for lawful fighting demands that fighting be made by the authority of God – that God should speak to them, command them to fight, muster the necessary men, and teach them how to fight. If men kept this in mind, they would not fight now against anyone. But treacherous men stir up battles now, even though the time has come that Isaiah spoke of regarding Christ – that men shall beat their swords into plowshares and the iron of their spears into scythes or sickles. The third condition that men should meet in fighting and warring is that they should perform the deeds of their fighting out of love, loving God and their neighbors – specifically, the men they are fighting with. Saint Paul commanded that all our deeds be done in love, and according to God’s law we should love our enemies, and so make them friends by the strength of our love.

Since no man should fight except with these three conditions, it is obvious that men should not fight now. And therefore Jesus Christ, the champion of our battle, taught us the law of calmly enduring misfortune and suffering, and not to fight bodily. If God whispers in your ear and commands you to fight in His cause, then, as God taught by His prophets in the Old Testament, fight vigorously in God’s cause as He Himself commands you; otherwise, hold your peace as Christ did with His disciples. And so this argument – if men fought at one time with these three conditions, then men should fight now – can be seen as an false argument. Now is the time of peace. The Church is mature, and it does not follow from any of these conditions that men should fight with each other – in fact, just the opposite follows, as each man should know. And so the devil, the father of anger, is the one who authorizes this fighting, and his disciples follow along, moved by their master.

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Chapter 14

Furthermore, in order to maintain men’s fighting, the Antichrist argues that nature teaches that men should stand against their enemies by force. Since an adder by its nature bites a man who treads on it, why should we not fight against our enemies? Otherwise, they would destroy us and condemn their own souls. Thus, we chastise them out of love, as God’s law teaches us. And so, since our enemies would attack us, if we hear about them beforehand and love ourselves more, we should attack them first in order to secure our peace.

Here I think the devil deceives many men by the falseness of his reasons and principles. What man, who has understanding, cannot see this fraud? If it is lawful to stand against violence with brute strength, then it is lawful to fight with men who stand against us. I am certain that angels stand against devils, and many men stand against their enemies by strength of law; and yet they do not kill them or fight with them. Wise men of the world hold back their strength, and thus vanquish their enemies without throwing a punch. Men of the Gospel conquered through patience, and yeomen won rest and peace by suffering death. We may also do right, if we care about love. Though men may seize our estates or our possessions, we should suffer in patience – yes, though they do even more to us. These are the counsels of Christ, but the world grumbles and says that kingdoms are destroyed in this way. But here faith teaches us, since Christ is our God, that this is the way kingdoms should be established, and our enemies be vanquished. But perhaps many men would lose their worldly riches. What harm would that be, since all men were without such an estate before Adam’s fall?

The devil uses venomous snakes as his example, and by a simple animal characteristic he teaches men to fight. But many other examples of patience in animals should teach us to endure suffering, and so accomplish a greater good. A devil’s feelings govern him and convince him that his enemies would kill him if he were patient. That is equivalent to saying that the devil would destroy him if he obeyed Christ’s word, thus making the devil greater than Christ. And if we fight thus out of “love,” it is not a benevolent love, for benevolence does not seek one’s own good in this life, but the common good in heaven by virtuous patience. I am sure that worldly men will scorn this teaching, but men who would be martyrs out of love for God will embrace it, and they are more to be desired because they have more and better love with God. Men who fight have a deceitful love, the kind of false love that the demons of hell invent. But men shall know on Judgment Day who fights thus for “love.” It is no loving thing to ride against your enemy upon a strong war-horse and armed with a sharp spear – in comparison, the kiss of Judas was more of a token of love. And so God’s law teaches men to excel in deeds of love and works of worship. I do not read in God’s law that Christian men should excel in fighting or battle, but in meek patience. And this is the means whereby we should have God’s peace.

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R
rbanks

Brethren,

Notice these scriptures in Acts concerning Paul being full of the Holy Ghost and how he acted in these situations. Notice also what he stated in Romans about the authorities being the minister of God to execute judgment upon the offender. Paul was an apostle and never was he violent to anyone since his conversion. He was not always completely nonresistant either. We are to walk in the light that we have received. I believe that one can be so full of the Holy Ghost that one can be completely protected by God from any harm if God so chooses. I believe that sometimes we will suffer and yet the Holy Ghost will sustain us through it.

The apostle Paul said that he had shun not to teach the whole counsel of God but yet he was silent upon saying that a Christian could not be in government using force for the good of mankind. He only told us to respect them and not to resist the authorities. I really believe that we as Christians need to be full of the Holy Ghost and follow the will of God with our whole heart and quit trying to judge everybody else on what they can or cannot do when something is a noble work. I think if we had more Christians filled with the Holy Ghost and going about the world like the apostle Paul winning people to Jesus instead of judging people doing a noble work for their fellowman we would see more done for the cause of Christ. Let’s get busy trying to reconcile people to God and live out our convictions to God. Let’s not judge one another brethren in things that God has allowed and if you are convicted about something then live out that conviction to God.


Acts 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:
Acts 13:7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.
Acts 13:8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
Acts 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
Acts 13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
Acts 13:12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.


Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
Acts 20:18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
Acts 20:19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
Acts 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 20:22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
Acts 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
Acts 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.


Acts 23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.
Acts 23:2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
Acts 23:3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
Acts 23:4 And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?
Acts 23:5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Romans 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Romans 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

The bible also tells us to show honor, respect, and render to all their dues. Paul wanted to see everybody saved, we need that same spirit. He didn’t even escape from prison because he wanted the phillipian jailer to be saved and praise God he was. I believe there are some things you just don’t need to talk about and if you want to see policeman and military men saved then don’t tell them that, you as a Christian, don’t respect what they do and that they can’t be a Christian and do that type of work. How is that going to help them get saved if you are already condemning and making them think they can’t be a Christian. The apostle Paul was a wise man and full of the Holy Ghost.


Blessings to all!

S
sermonindex


chapel wrote:
We could always look to the word of God, there is probably some direction for those who are serious about nonresistance.


Thou Shalt Not Kill

(Exodus 20:13 - Deuteronomy 5:17 - Matthew 19:16-19)

And yet there are times recorded when the Israelites were commanded to kill from the Lord Himself after receiving that very commandment. What then? Your pacifism would have you deny what God would have you do. The faith of Abraham could not be displayed in a pacifist, they wouldn't be willing to kill their own son if God had commanded.


Deut 20:17
But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:


Josh 11:11-12
11 And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.

12 And all the cities of those kings, and all the kings of them, did Joshua take, and smote them with the edge of the sword, and he utterly destroyed them, as Moses the servant of the Lord commanded.

1 Sam 15:2-3
2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.


1 Sam 15:18-20
18 And the Lord sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.

19 Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the Lord, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the Lord?

20 And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the Lord, and have gone the way which the Lord sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites.

Ex 15:3
3 The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

1 Sam 17:29
29 And David said, What have I now done? Is there not a cause?

1 Sam 17:36
36 Thy servant slew both the lion and the bear: and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be as one of them, seeing he hath defied the armies of the living God.

1 Sam 17:45-51
45 Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.

46 This day will the Lord deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.

47 And all this assembly shall know that the Lord saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give you into our hands.

48 And it came to pass, when the Philistine arose, and came and drew nigh to meet David, that David hasted, and ran toward the army to meet the Philistine.

49 And David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slang it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead, that the stone sunk into his forehead; and he fell upon his face to the earth.

50 So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David.

51 Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith. And when the Philistines saw
their champion was dead, they fled.

Were it not for the courage of the Davids' in this world, where would any of us be?

Gen 9:6
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Rev 19:13-16
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LordS.


As Eccl 3:3 states, there is indeed a time to kill and a time not to kill, it is left to the servant of the Lord to discern the difference. Those who say kill everything or kill nothing have only made rules to cover up their lack of discernment.

C
ChrisJD

Frank,


"So, if I am reading you correctly, you are sating that if they did not have this specific warning that they would have stood and fought alongside the Scribes and the Pharisees and the ones who would eventually kill them in an effort to save their country?"

Not at all. I think that one of the passages that I posted indicates that it was those very people that were part of the reason for the King sending His armies to destroy the city:

"But when the king heard [i]thereof[/i], he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city."

- Matthew 22:7(KJV)


See also Mat 27:24-25, Acts 18:6, 1Th 2:16


The things that the Lord Jesus told them were a distinct indication that the nation was under the Judgement of God.

G
ginnyrose

OldJoe,

The OT also says one should kill those caught in bestiality (Exodus 22:19; Leviticus 20:15), adultery (Deuteronomy 22:22)and kill the homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13), so you better include these in your list...

ginnyrose

S
sermonindex

Hi,

Just to add to Ginnyrose's point. If those who look to the OT to justify war and obvioulsy the killing that takes place in wars does that mean that Homosexuals should be killed today? Or adulterers and so on? And if not, why not? If the justification for war today is based on the many Scriptures quoted from the OT, then given that logic, and ignoring the fact that we are now under a New Covenant, where does one draw the line and why and who gets to draw the line?........Frank

S
sermonindex


ginnyrose wrote:
OldJoe,

The OT also says one should kill those caught in bestiality (Exodus 22:19; Leviticus 20:15), adultery (Deuteronomy 22:22)and kill the homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13), so you better include these in your list...

ginnyrose

Interesting enough, it was the same OT that had the command "Thou shalt not kill", that commanded these to be killed.

How do you reconcile that?

S
sermonindex

If those who look to the OT to justify war and obviously the killing that takes place in wars does that mean that Homosexuals should be killed today? Or adulterers and so on? And if not, why not? If the justification for war today is based on the many Scriptures quoted from the OT, then given that logic, and ignoring the fact that we are now under a New Covenant, where does one draw the line and why and who gets to draw the line?
All valid questions and I have often thought of these things as well.

I find that we borrow from the Law when it suits our line of reasoning, doctrine, teaching etc.. I am speaking of "doing the works of the law" to justify our actions.

I must admit that I really don't know where we should draw the line. I know that killing a homosexual because he's homosexual is wrong. I know that because the Holy Spirit that circumcised my heart and placed His commandments there refrains me from carrying out acts of the law through the flesh. The law was weak through the flesh, God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh condemned sin in the flesh, took it out of the way so we live out through our new nature the Christ within. And from that renewed spirit we ought to love our neighbour as our selves. Since flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God what purpose would it be for me to kill a homosexual? He's already condemned. The more that he stays alive the better chance of him being saved, and that goes for all of us.

I may be off base and grasping at straws.

S
sermonindex


appolus wrote:
Hi,

Just to add to Ginnyrose's point. If those who look to the OT to justify war and obvioulsy the killing that takes place in wars does that mean that Homosexuals should be killed today? Or adulterers and so on? And if not, why not? If the justification for war today is based on the many Scriptures quoted from the OT, then given that logic, and ignoring the fact that we are now under a New Covenant, where does one draw the line and why and who gets to draw the line?........Frank

Israel was a physical kingdom established to make God's physical power known unto men, the new thing called the Church is a spiritual kingdom in which the Christian is to make God's spiritual power known to men.

Israel is to justify God before men, the church is to see men justified before God.

Israel could not fulfill their role if such as these were allowed to live in their midst and therefore had to kill all that were such. The Christian is sent to such as these that the spiritual power of God may be made known.

However there are occasions where the two overlap.

WWI was about Israel, WWII was about Israel, WWIII will be about Israel, WWIV will be about Israel. There is a definite theme here... In each case Christians were or will be involved on the side of Christ.

WWI was to prepare Israel for the Jews.
WWII was to prepare the Jews to return to Israel
WWIII will be an attack on Isreal that will begin a 7 year peace.
WWIV will be the whole world against Israel as Christ returns.

Today there are also cases of overlap with regards to national sins and judgment, but that is a whole other case.

EDIT:
Today sodomy abounds because the church is corrupt. The Lord has turned this world over to these things to show those in the church of their own death. When the world is wholly turned over to these things as it is now, it's too late to fix by trying to eliminate 'problems', all we are to expect is judgment.

Besides, to be consistent with the OT, if we were to start up the executions anywhere, we would have to start in the pulpits and work our way out from there.

S
sermonindex


DeepThinker wrote:
If those who look to the OT to justify war and obviously the killing that takes place in wars does that mean that Homosexuals should be killed today? Or adulterers and so on? And if not, why not? If the justification for war today is based on the many Scriptures quoted from the OT, then given that logic, and ignoring the fact that we are now under a New Covenant, where does one draw the line and why and who gets to draw the line?
All valid questions and I have often thought of these things as well.

[b]I find that we borrow from the Law when it suits our line of reasoning, doctrine, teaching etc..[/b] I am speaking of "doing the works of the law" to justify our actions.

I must admit that I really don't know where we should draw the line. I know that killing a homosexual because he's homosexual is wrong. I know that because the Holy Spirit that circumcised my heart and placed His commandments there refrains me from carrying out acts of the law through the flesh. The law was weak through the flesh, God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh condemned sin in the flesh, took it out of the way so we live out through our new nature the Christ within. And from that renewed spirit we ought to love our neighbour as our selves. Since flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God what purpose would it be for me to kill a homosexual? He's already condemned. The more that he stays alive the better chance of him being saved, and that goes for all of us.

I may be off base and grasping at straws.


Not off base at all and thanks to ginnyrose as well.

GOD commanded they kill false prophets also.

He decides now, as with Ananias and Sapphira.

Ginnyrose & DT are right - we pick & choose from the O.T. as it suits us - which in turn, "cancels out" the N.T. Scriptures every time.

C
chapel


Old_Joe wrote:

appolus wrote:
Hi,

Just to add to Ginnyrose's point. If those who look to the OT to justify war and obvioulsy the killing that takes place in wars does that mean that Homosexuals should be killed today? Or adulterers and so on? And if not, why not? If the justification for war today is based on the many Scriptures quoted from the OT, then given that logic, and ignoring the fact that we are now under a New Covenant, where does one draw the line and why and who gets to draw the line?........Frank

Israel was a physical kingdom established to make God's physical power known unto men, the new thing called the Church is a spiritual kingdom in which the Christian is to make God's spiritual power known to men.

Israel is to justify God before men, the church is to see men justified before God.

Israel could not fulfill their role if such as these were allowed to live in their midst and therefore had to kill all that were such. The Christian is sent to such as these that the spiritual power of God may be made known.

However there are occasions where the two overlap.

WWI was about Israel, WWII was about Israel, WWIII will be about Israel, WWIV will be about Israel. There is a definite theme here... In each case Christians were or will be involved on the side of Christ.

WWI was to prepare Israel for the Jews.
WWII was to prepare the Jews to return to Israel
WWIII will be an attack on Isreal that will begin a 7 year peace.
WWIV will be the whole world against Israel as Christ returns.

Today there are also cases of overlap with regards to national sins and judgment, but that is a whole other case.

EDIT:
Today sodomy abounds because the church is corrupt. The Lord has turned this world over to these things to show those in the church of their own death. When the world is wholly turned over to these things as it is now, it's too late to fix by trying to eliminate 'problems', all we are to expect is judgment.

Besides, to be consistent with the OT, if we were to start up the executions anywhere, we would have to start in the pulpits and work our way out from there.


Paul must have left something out.

2 Cor. 10:3-4
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: [4] (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

So Paul should have added(except when God says I need your help so go pick up a rifle and go kill people for they are to much for me to handle).

Romans 12:19-21
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. [20] Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

So Paul didn’t mean this and God again needs our help, so we are to pick up a rifle and kill the enemy right after we feed them and give them something to eat. That way we would be over coming evil with good.

1 Thes. 5:15
See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

Again, Paul should have added (except the men God needs your help to kill).

I wonder what happened to the twelve legions of angels and how did the Lord get so weak after he received all power:
Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I guess he changed his mind and now we are to baptize with a rifle.

lee

S
sermonindex

There is a deep history behind the WWI & WWII and it begins with the Balfour Letter and later, the Balfour Agreement.

S
sermonindex


Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
Not off base at all and thanks to ginnyrose as well.

GOD commanded they kill false prophets also.

He decides now, as with Ananias and Sapphira.

Ginnyrose & DT are right - we pick & choose from the O.T. as it suits us - which in turn, "cancels out" the N.T. Scriptures every time.

Here is a NT scripture for you.

Rev 13:9-10
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

If one that kills with the sword must also be killed with a sword, how is that able to be accomplished without killing him with a sword?

S
sermonindex

I guess he changed his mind and now we are to baptize with a rifle.
:-P :-P Lee that was funny. The NRA would love this creed.

S
sermonindex


Old_Joe wrote:

ginnyrose wrote:
OldJoe,

The OT also says one should kill those caught in bestiality (Exodus 22:19; Leviticus 20:15), adultery (Deuteronomy 22:22)and kill the homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13), so you better include these in your list...

ginnyrose

Interesting enough, it was the same OT that had the command "Thou shalt not kill", that commanded these to be killed.

How do you reconcile that?

Since Ginny hasn't answered yet, I would like an answer to this one from anyone on the pacifist side.

How do you reconcile the OT command of killing of homosexuals with the ALSO OT command of "thou shalt not kill"?

The only answer is that there is a time to kill, and a time not to kill. Each one will be accountable as to how they respond to God in such time as it comes. Saul was cast out as king because he refused to kill ALL the Amalekites. When each of our times come, we will all be accountable as to how we have reacted in it.

In both OT and NT it operates under the principle, "the death of one saves the lives of many". Similar to John 11:50-51.

Sometimes that death is by an evil hand (IE Caiaphus) and other times it is by a good hand (IE David), but in both cases it is moved of God.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Jesus-is-God,

Ginnyrose & DT are right - we pick & choose from the O.T. as it suits us - which in turn, "cancels out" the N.T. Scriptures every time.

I agree. However, this is not only true of those who look to the Old Testament for validation , but also of those who pick and choose verses within the New Testament exclusively. I know individuals who will embrace one view because they perceive a particular passage that embraces such a view, but will reject or reinterpret another passage that contradicts the former view.

I think that it is flat out incorrect to accuse those of us who don't embrace all of the tenants of "non-resistance" as having looked for Scriptures that will validate a preexisting view. Many of us sought the Lord wholeheartedly and without prejudice in this matter, but still do not agree with some of the ideas of "non-resistance" (such as a complete and utter prohibition of serving in the military, defending the weak or defending your own family from violence).

Personally, I feel that there is order to the commands of God. The Scriptures in the New Testament prohibit lust. However, most would agree that it is perfectly acceptable (and even commendable) to desire physical intimacy with your spouse. In other words, the essence of former command is superseded by the latter.

Some have postulated that God HATES war. Yet our never-changing God commanded (and, at times, even [i]instigated[/i]) war under the Old Covenant. However, Revelation 19:11 says that the Lord will return to "judge and make war" against the remaining PHYSICAL armies of the Anti-Christ.

Is all physical resistance or violence prohibited in the New Testament? I wonder if any of those believers who spank their children would embrace such a notion? While it is wrong to hit someone with a rod without cause, most believers feel that the command to "raise up our child in the way they should go" supersedes any command against physical resistance. You can cite that [i]the weapons of our warfare are NOT carnal[/i] all you want (and rightfully so in regard to our SPIRITUAL war in SPIRITUAL realms) -- but physical spanking seems to work quite well in the discipline of a child. Yet, it is still a form of physical resistance.

I think that it has been suggested that those who don't embrace "non-resistance" are looking for excuses to validate a preexisting condition of the heart. This couldn't be further from the truth! We are NOT bloodthirsty men. We are NOT looking for instances in which we can resort to violence. We are NOT bowing to the kingdoms of this world over the kingdom of God. We are not "heretics" hoping to unwittingly continue in "heresy." Such suggestions would be foolish. Rather, we are true believers who have prayerfully considered this issue, studied the Word diligently, and have simply arrived at a somewhat different conclusion that the "non-resistance" brethren. I don't see any prohibition from military service, defending the weak or defending your family as being the conclusion from any of the Scripture passages that have been presented by the non-resistant brethren. As such, I can walk with a clear conscience before God.

S
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Jesus left us the New Testament and if I ever find one Scripture for killing my enemy - I'll post it.


'His' wars were given to the people normally approved by the true prophets.
Sometimes Israel would get into wars that were not His Will.
If this country were a true Theocracy as Israel sometimes was - I could see where God would fit into this or these wars - but it is not and has not been.


We're not talking anything near "spanking children" here - Come now - again, if I ever find one Scripture for killing my enemy - I'll post it.


S
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That's a Pro-Non-Resistance verse you gave Joe.

It goes along with - Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

"Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

Revelation is about the last days and no where do you find the Saints physically resisting.

And the war that Chris mentions when Christ returns is Christ's war - so how on earth can that be compared to our wars?

How we have twisted His Word, especially those regarding "the last days" and our involvement in the last days governments and their wars and the Scriptures regarding "those days."

You both quoted from the Revelation and I'm just answering with That Book in view. Very much so.


Thanks.


C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Jesus-is-God,

We are talking about "resistance" here. If we are NEVER supposed to resort to any sort of physical resistance, then Christian parents are PROHIBITED from ever spanking their children. The point? There are passages that seem to flat out reject certain things that are superseded by a more supreme need or concept. We are supposed to refrain from lust -- but desire physical intimacy with our spouses. We are supposed to hold our tongues, yet Jesus called the Pharisees a "brood of vipers." We are supposed to not worry about our needs and realize that God will take care of us, yet men are commanded to take care of the needs of their families or be considered "worse than an infidel." We are not supposed to be "entangled with the affairs of this world," yet we are told that married couples WILL be concerned with the affairs of this world (I Corinthians 7). We are supposed to "turn the other cheek," but we are still supposed to discipline our children (and, often, with a rod of correction).

Do you see what I am trying to say? We understand the precepts that are pointed out in this thread in regard to calls against "resistance." Yet there are times in which men are given responsibility. Jesus did not come to do away with the Law, but to fulfill it. As such, I believe that we still have certain responsibilities in regard to the "affairs of this world." We must work. We must pay our taxes. We must provide for the needs of our families.

While you might reject the notion of serving in the military, defending the weak, or defending a family member, I haven't seen a single verse presented by any of the "non-resistance" brethren that would indicate any universal and absolute prohibition as such.

I think that the bottom line is that we don't agree upon the meaning of those particular passages that are often quoted. The odd thing is that we each agree on the ultimate significance of those passages.

God raises up nations and requires that his children submit to the authority unto which He placed them. In addition, we can't pick and choose how we will be "non-resistant." Some people are far more violent and capable of "resistance" with their mouths than with a gun or sword.

S
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Title of Thread - [b]"Will You Kill or Be Killed?"[/b]

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Jesus-is-God,

We can't pick and choose to say that God resists war...and then read that He will be leading an army in physical war. This will be a PHYSICAL war, because the blood of the dead will be pretty high in that valley.

How we have twisted His Word, especially those regarding "the last days" and our involvement in the last days governments and their wars and the Scriptures regarding "those days."

Please don't claim that anyone is "twisting" the Word in this regard. This is my biggest problem with this thread. Chapel has already written that those who disagree with him are in "heresy" and are embracing a "damnable heresy." Is this really necessary? Many of us believe as we do with a clear conscience through just as honest prayer and Bible study as those who embrace "non-resistance." It is quite an accusation to claim that they are "twisting His Word" out of simple disagreement.

S
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The "war" that Christ comes down for with His Armies are GOD initiated and carried out so How can you compare that to the wars we are seeing in these "last days".
That 'is' twisting Scripture Chris.

Just as some pick and choose which of the OT events that concerned Israel Only - we do the same with one day saying "We're living in the last days" and at other times, like now - we don't want to see that fits into this topic 100%.

S
sermonindex

by chapel on 2009/10/3 13:12:17

We could always look to the word of God, there is probably some direction for those who are serious about nonresistance.


Thou Shalt Not Kill

(Exodus 20:13 - Deuteronomy 5:17 - Matthew 19:16-19)

Nonresistance

Please note: the following Hebrew transliterations are used in this document:

Yeshua (Jesus)
Elohiym (God)
ha Mashiyach (the Christ)
ha Adon (the Lord)
Yahveh (the LORD)

Among the many heresies found within the realm of false Christianity here is one most outstanding. Before proceeding, the following references concerning truth, His word, knowing Him, and deception may be of interest to you.

"Then said Yeshua to those Jews which believed on Him, 'If ye continue in My Word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.' " Jn. 8:31-32.

"Yeshua answered them, and said, 'My doctrine is not Mine, but His that sent Me. If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of Elohiym, or whether I speak of Myself.' " Jn. 7:16-17.

"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." Jms. 1:22-25.

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to Me: seeing thou has forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children." Hos. 4:6.

"I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth... Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." I Jn. 2:21,24.

"And hereby do we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth in not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of Elohiym perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him." I Jn. 2:2:5.

"If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered, and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is My Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be My disciples. As the Father hath loved Me, so have I loved you: continue ye in My love. If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have keep My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." Jn. 15:6-10.

"They profess that they know Elohiym; but in works they deny Him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." Titus 1:16.

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Mashiyach. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great things if his ministers also shall be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their own works. " II Cor. 11:13-15.

"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived." II Tim. 3:13.

"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause Elohiym shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." II Thes. 2:9-12.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying ha Adon that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways: by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of." 2 Pet. 2:1-2.

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of Elohiym, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves men shall arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears." Acts 20:28-31.

"But speak though the things which become sound doctrine." Titus 2:1.

"And the servant of ha Adon must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if Elohiym peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." II Tim. 2:26.

"Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers." Titus 1:9.


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The heresy about to be addressed which denies Yeshua is the common belief that Yeshua allows his children to kill their fellow man in wartime, or in self defense, or to protect the life of another, or by capital punishment, or by the abortion of an unwanted, unborn child. Most people stumble on the fact that contrary to the first covenant, which permitted certain acts of killing, the New Testament prohibits such acts. The gospel states that "the law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Yeshua ha Mashiyach." Concerning the change that the New Testament has made from the Old, here are also some scriptures.


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" 'Behold, the days come,' saith Yahveh, 'that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.' " Jer. 31:31.

"Yahveh is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; He will magnify the law, and make it honourable." Isa. 42:21.

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Yeshua ha Mashiyach." Jn. 1:17.

"If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." Heb. 7:11-12.

"For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto Elohiym." Heb. 7:19.

"But now hath He obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, He saith, ' Behold, the days come,' saith ha Adon, 'when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith ha Adon. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith ha Adon; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: and they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know ha Adon: for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.' In that He saith, 'A new covenant,' He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Heb 8:6-13.

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross." Col. 2:14.

"For the grace of Elohiym that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great Elohiym and our Saviour Yeshua ha Mashiyach; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." Titus 2:11-14.

"By so much was Yeshua made a surety of a better testament." Heb. 7:22.

"And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: but their minds were blinded: for unto this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Mashiyach." II Cor. 3:13-14.

"But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; as it is written, 'Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.' " Rom. 9:31-33.

"Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, 'Behold I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on Him shall not be confounded.' Unto you therefore which believe He is precious; but unto them which be disobedient, 'the same is made the head of the corner,' and 'a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence,' even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light." 1 Pet. 2:6-9.

"For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens." Heb 7:26.


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It is completely wrong to justify killing by using examples from the Old Testament seeing that the New Testament has changed this. The following quotations from the New Covenant expose the fallacy of this commonly accepted, extremely serious, damnable heresy.


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"Do violence to no man..." Lk. 3:14.

"Recompense no man evil for evil..." Rom. 13:17.

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." Mt. 10:16.

"But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another..." Mt. 10:23.

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, 'Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment.' : But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry at his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:..." Mt. 5:21-22.

"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: for the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of Elohiym." Jms 1:19-20.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth': But I say unto you, that ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." Mt. 5:38-39.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbour and hate thine enemy.' But I say unto you, 'Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven...'" Mt. 5:43-45.

"Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of Man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy; for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets." Lk 6:22-23.

"Woe unto you when all men shall speak well of you! For so did their fathers to the false prophets. But I say unto you which hear, 'Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, bless them that curse you and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also." Lk. 6:26-29.

"Bless them which persecute you; bless and curse not." Rom. 12:14.

"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath; for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine; I will repay,' saith ha Adon. Therefore 'if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink; for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." Rom. 12:19-21.

"Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you...Ye have condemned and killed the just and he doth not resist you. Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of ha Adon..." Jms. 5:1,6-7.

"He was oppressed and afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth: He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He opened not his mouth." Isa. 53:7.

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Mashiyach also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps:... Who when He was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed Himself to Him that judgeth righteously." I Pet. 2:21,23.

"As it is written, 'For thy sake we are killed all day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.' " Rom. 8:36.

"And I say unto you my friends, be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea I say unto you, fear Him." Lk. 12:4-5.

"And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of Elohiym. For unto you it is given in the behalf of Mashiyach, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake." Php. 1:28-29.

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for My sake shall find it." Mt. 16:25.

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shalt cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Rev. 2:10.

Please see also:

"The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord." Mt. 10:24.

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of Elohiym, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world." Php. 2:15.

"Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: neither give place unto the devil." Eph. 4:26-27.

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through Elohiym to the pulling down of strong holds;) casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of Elohiym, and bringing into captivity every though to the obedience of Mashiyach." II Cor. 10:3-5.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Eph. 6:12.

"And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the alter the souls of them that were slain for the word of Elohiym, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, O Adon, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?' And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Rev. 6:9-11.

"And ye became followers of us, and of ha Adon, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: so that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. For from you sounded out the word of ha Adon not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to Elohiym-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to Elohiym from idols to serve the living and true God; and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Yeshua, which delivered us from the wrath to come." II Thes. 1:6-10.

"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolators, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." Rev. 22:14-15.

"Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal. 5:21.

"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." Rev. 13:10.

"Then said Yeshua unto him, 'Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.' " Mt. 26:52.

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 Jn 3:15.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Jesus-is-God,


The "war" that Christ comes down for with His Armies are GOD initiated and carried out so How can you compare that to the wars we are seeing in these "last days".

I didn't say otherwise. What I was saying is that there are moments when war is justifiable for the cause of righteousness. It will be a just and righteous war. Thus, God Himself will NOT be "turning the other cheek" -- even before the day of Judgment or dispersion of everlasting punishment. Yet, the underlying point that I am trying to make is in regard to a matter of righteousness. Is it ever "righteous" to "resist?"

If a child was being attacked by a violent man, would it be a "righteous" thing to resist the attacker? I believe that it is a righteous thing to stand up for the weak or for your family.

In fact, the New Testament Scriptures talk about such this matter. Romans 13 speaks about our responsibility to submit to the authorities of this world. There are plenty of "non-resistant" men who refrain from physical force, yet are still quick to use their words as weapons. How many believers did this over the past eight years in regard to President Bush or President Obama? Damaging and unsubstantiated accusations have been made by men who claim to practice "non-resistance." Yet we are told to refrain from these sort of attacks.

Furthermore, we are told in regard to a physical authority, "[i]For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; [b]for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God[/b], a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil[/i]" (Romans 13:4). In other words, such an authority (whether a king, a governor or a local principality [like a policeman]) are "instruments of God for righteousness." I Peter 2:13-14 says, "[i]Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him [b]for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well[/b][/i]."

That 'is' twisting Scripture Chris.

I think that this is quite an accusation, brother! Do you see how this type of accusation might appear? It seems like you are saying that I have a belief that I am willing to twist the Scriptures in order to justify. This could not be further from the truth! This is how I see the Scriptures from a clear conscience before God after much prayerful consideration and study.

None of the verse presented by the "non-resistant" brethren have led me to embrace their persuasion in regard to this topic. I read those same verses, embrace them as the Truth that they are, but I fail to see how they are extended to some sort of absolute prohibition of serving in the military or police department, defending the weak or defending one's family.

S
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Jesus-is-God

How do you reconcile the OT command of killing of homosexuals with the ALSO OT command of "thou shalt not kill"?


Still waiting for an answer....

S
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ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
If a child was being attacked by a violent man, would it be a "righteous" thing to resist the attacker? I believe that it is a righteous thing to stand up for the weak or for your family.

.....
None of the verse presented by the "non-resistant" brethren have led me to embrace their persuasion in regard to this topic. I read those same verses, embrace them as the Truth that they are, but I fail to see how they are extended to some sort of absolute prohibition of serving in the military or police department, defending the weak or defending one's family.

Amen and amen...

S
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People here seem to think that because the merchant marines were not firing guns they were less culpable in the deaths attributed by the war. The fact is that even though they were not firing the weapon, they were helping the weapons be fired by providing supplies. They are just as culpable in the war effort as those on the front lines. Choosing non-resistance as a means to do that instead just meant they didn't want to get their own hands dirty with the blood of other men. Nevertheless the dirt remains....

Likewise to all who live under the freedoms bought with that bloodshed. The dirt remains, is charged to you and can't be washed off with morality, that is why you need Christ.

S
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BTW
The first gentile convert was Cornelian the Centurion, (a leader of 100 men in the army), and he stayed in his position. Acts 10.

The first gentile convert was a military man....

Interesting....

S
sermonindex

Chris, you tend to post in rabbit trails and again - the "twisting of Scripture" is your comparison to Christ's Return with His Armies and the wars waged on earth by men autonomously.

Can you not see the difference?


The rest of your post is merely a repeat and those points have been covered already.

If the Government can make room for Religious Exemptions for these many years - I'm wondering why there are so many here that find the need to "fight" those who are of that religious persuasion.

That's where the "mouth fights" are totally unnecesary.

It's like going to an Amish Settlement and fighting with them Chris.


M
murrcolr

2 Samuel 22:35 He teacheth my hands to war; so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.

2 Samuel 22: 38 I have pursued mine enemies, and destroyed them; and turned not again until I had consumed them

S
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Old_Joe wrote:
Jesus-is-God

How do you reconcile the OT command of killing of homosexuals with the ALSO OT command of "thou shalt not kill"?


Still waiting for an answer....


As with any Old Covenant's dealing with "sin in the Camp" - when The Messiah came - HE took charge of how to deal with "sin in the camp".

It's as easy as that. 'The Beatitudes', Paul's writings, etc. - it's as easy as reading anything Jesus said that we have recorded in our N.T.s.

S
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This surely is a NT vs OT discussion.

Why do we use or discard the OT when it suits our own views?

S
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HI Joe,

I think that if you actually read the piece I posted by Wycliffe you would see that this man , while teaching non-resitance , was saying that one must only go to war if commanded by God. And so, if this country or any other were a theocracy, and the ruler stood up and pronounced that God spoke to him and commanded him to go to war then you would go to war. To compare Israel and its wars with the Canaanities with say, the war in Vietnam or any war by any country in the last 2000 years is beyond me. Yet I do accept that this is your view and we have a genuine difference of opinion, which is fine of course.

One can only imagine what Wycliffe suffered for his view in those days. Of course he was not that popular with the religious men of the day, even after he was buried........Frank

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Jesus-is God writes....

"This surely is a NT vs OT discussion."

I believe that you are correct. I have found that there is a fundamental lack of understanding as to the nature of the New Covenant as it relates to the OC. If you were to ask many Christians if they are under the Law, withour hesitation they would say yes...........Frank


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Quote: Chris wrote - "There are plenty of "non-resistant" men who refrain from physical force, yet are still quick to use their words as weapons."

Amen. Started with our non-resistant Savior who used His Words as a sword, calling Herod a "fox" and you know what He had to say to Pharisees.

And our non-resistant Paul - his words and name calling cut like a sword of the Spirit.

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appolus wrote:
Jesus-is God writes....

"This surely is a NT vs OT discussion."

I believe that you are correct. I have found that there is a fundamental lack of understanding as to the nature of the New Covenant as it relates to the OC. If you were to ask many Christians if they are under the Law, withour hesitation they would say yes...........Frank


A babe in Christ would know this Frank.

How many times did Jesus say - "It is written - but I say ....."


C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Jesus-is-God,

Chris, you tend to post in rabbit trails and again - the "twisting of Scripture" is your comparison to Christ's Return with His Armies and the wars waged on earth by men autonomously.

Can you not see the difference?

Okay...I disagree with both your assessment and your accusation. I am not building "rabbit" trails and I don't believe that I am "twisting the Scripture."
The rest of your post is merely a repeat and those points have been covered already.
No, it is not. If you read my post, I introduced thoughts that weren't found in any of my other posts...or anyone else's that I have read. Regardless, I haven't seen any plausible refutation of any of the points or Scriptural questions that I mentioned from the "non-resistance

If the Government can make room for Religious Exemptions for these many years - I'm wondering why there are so many here that find the need to "fight" those who are of that religious persuasion.

That's where the "mouth fights" are totally unnecesary.

It's like going to an Amish Settlement and fighting with them Chris.

It isn't that anyone is saying that you or anyone else of the "non-resistant" persuasion don't have the right to opt out of such service. I totally respect and recognize that this is a result of those beliefs as they are interpreted from the Word of God. Yet, at the same time, are the "non-resistant" brethren free to simply share their beliefs as if they are beyond dispute...or the only ones that matter? One brother literally wrote that anyone who disagrees with the teaching of "non-resistant" is twisting the Scriptures and given to "damnable heresy." What an insolent and presumptuous thing to say! This is my central concern within this topic. You might think that we are "fighting" your position -- but we are "resisting" the view as it is presented as if there can be no other thoughts on the matter than what has already been presented by the "non-resistant" brethren. Of course, the same thing can be said of the "non-resistant" brethren who are using "mouth fights" to resist those with whom they disagree.

As for the topic: If any sort of resistance is strictly forbidden by God, then why is it not clearly pointed out in the Word? Maybe you think that it is "clear" -- but many of us who have studied it and prayed about it simply disagree. Likewise, why does the Word of God consider those physical governments and authorities (outside of the Body of Christ) who implement such things as "[i]instruments of God for righteousness[/i]?"

The thing that I have said but has, as far as I can tell, been ignored is that many of us see a strong difference between personal resistance when persecuted for the Gospel...and those who would serve in the military or police department, or those who would defend the weak from attack or those who would defend their families. Like I said before, I haven't seen any verses that have been presented that I feel address these forms of "resistance." Yet, when we voice this, we are accused of "twisting the Scriptures" or embracing "damnable heresies" implemented by "false Christianity." No one WANTS to resort to any form of physical force; rather, we see that some limited forms of physical force might be needed (and non-prohibited) or even a duty by those who belong to the family of God. We are not "heretics," nor are we "twisting the Scriptures" in the desire to accomplish such an end. We are simply following Christ through the Word with a clear conscience.

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Jesus-is-GOD wrote:

Old_Joe wrote:
Jesus-is-God

How do you reconcile the OT command of killing of homosexuals with the ALSO OT command of "thou shalt not kill"?


Still waiting for an answer....


As with any Old Covenant's dealing with "sin in the Camp" - when The Messiah came - HE took charge of how to deal with "sin in the camp".

It's as easy as that. 'The Beatitudes', Paul's writings, etc. - it's as easy as reading anything Jesus said that we have recorded in our N.T.s.


Not at all, Christ's blood atoned for David's sin as well as mine.

In the OT we have two direct and opposite commands. 'Though shalt not kill' and 'thou shalt kill'. To break either one is sin, so how then can you put sin out of the camp with sin?

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appolus wrote:
HI Joe,

I think that if you actually read the piece I posted by Wycliffe you would see that this man , while teaching non-resitance , was saying that one must only go to war if commanded by God. And so, if this country or any other were a theocracy, and the ruler stood up and pronounced that God spoke to him and commanded him to go to war then you would go to war.

........Frank

So then you believe there is a time for war?

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Alrighty Chris, we'll do the same to any Amish person who comes here with their strong convictions - though even to this day, this Government accepts their convictions.

________________________________________________

Old-Joe said: "In the OT we have two direct and opposite commands. 'Though shalt not kill' and 'thou shalt kill'.

To break either one is sin, so how then can you put sin out of the camp with sin?"


The point again Joe is that Jesus & His Apostle's Epistles set the rules and they're extremely clear in the N.T..
The answer to this not difficult to find.


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ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
The thing that I have said but has, as far as I can tell, been ignored is that many of us see a strong difference between personal resistance when persecuted for the Gospel...and those who would serve in the military or police department, or those who would defend the weak from attack or those who would defend their families. Like I said before, I haven't seen any verses that have been presented that I feel address these forms of "resistance."

Exactly!

That is because there aren't any.

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Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
Alrighty Chris, we'll do the same to any Amish person who comes here with their strong convictions - though even to this day, this Government accepts their convictions.

________________________________________________

Old-Joe said: "In the OT we have two direct and opposite commands. 'Though shalt not kill' and 'thou shalt kill'.

To break either one is sin, so how then can you put sin out of the camp with sin?"


The point again Joe is that Jesus & His Apostle's Epistles set the rules and they're extremely clear in the N.T..
The answer to this not difficult to find.


Then spell it out for us simpletons!

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Brother, have you not read the N.T.?

I don't consider you a simpleton!

No where in the NT are we told to "kill" people who are homosexual or any other sort of sinners that are listed in those same verses - ie. adulterers, thiefs, and so forth.

You know that Joe - that's why I should not have to re-post almost the entire NT on this thread.

Jesus said - "It is written, an eye for an eye - but I say ....................."


We ALL should know at least the NT by now.

G
ginnyrose

Well, I had a good morning..hope y'all did the same...We attended church services this morning and our preacher preached about the Church - it being a sheepfold. He shared a lot of very interesting points that I will share later.

Old Joe wrote:
How do you reconcile the OT command of killing of homosexuals with the ALSO OT command of "thou shalt not kill"?

I am not Jesus-is-God, but will share as I understand it.

Killing another human being is very serious, regardless who it may be. However, under the OT law God did stipulate that the penalty of certain sins be punished with death. How is this 'killing' different from 'thou shalt not kill?' One is man initiated and the other is God.

In Exodus 21:12-16 it details some acts whose reward was capital punishment. It also details in Exodus 21:13 what to do when one accidentally kills another person.

The kill as in "Thou shalt not kill" finds its definition in Exodus 21:14.

Chris wrote:
The Scriptures in the New Testament prohibit lust. However, most would agree that it is perfectly acceptable (and even commendable) to desire physical intimacy with your spouse.

As I understand lust it is similar to covetousness and that would mean to desire what is not yours whether it be things or persons. To desire intimacy with ones spouse is a God-given desire: it is the fulfilment of God's command to 'be fruitful and multiply' given before man ever sinned.

Chris wrote:
"but physical spanking seems to work quite well in the discipline of a child. Yet, it is still a form of physical resistance."

Killing a child and spanking a child are two totally different things. No one who exercises discipline will ever advocate killing a child. This is murder.

Our pastor preached about sheep this morning. In the course of his sermon he shared characteristics of sheep because Jesus refers to his followers as sheep. And one trait is that they are not predatory, unlike many other animals, like cats, dogs, birds, etc. Sheep are prey for other animals but they do not prey on others. The shepherd's job is to protect his sheep from predators.

Interesting lesson there.

ginnyrose

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Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
Brother, have you not read the N.T.?

I don't consider you a simpleton!

No where in the NT are we told to "kill" people who are homosexual or any other sort of sinners that are listed in those same verses - ie. adulterers, thiefs, and so forth.

You know that Joe - that's why I should not have to re-post almost the entire NT on this thread.

Jesus said - "It is written, an eye for an eye - but I say ....................."


We ALL should know at least the NT by now.



I am sure you also realize there was a time when the NT did not exist. All that existed was the OT, and it had two opposite commands. How would you reconcile those two commands?

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ginnyrose wrote:
Old Joe wrote:
How do you reconcile the OT command of killing of homosexuals with the ALSO OT command of "thou shalt not kill"?

I am not Jesus-is-God, but will share as I understand it.

Killing another human being is very serious, regardless who it may be. However, under the OT law God did stipulate that the penalty of certain sins be punished with death. How is this 'killing' different from 'thou shalt not kill?' One is man initiated and the other is God.

In Exodus 21:12-16 it details some acts whose reward was capital punishment. It also details in Exodus 21:13 what to do when one accidentally kills another person.

The kill as in "Thou shalt not kill" finds its definition in Exodus 21:14.
...

So then you agree that there is a time to kill, and a time not to kill.

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Old_Joe wrote:

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
Brother, have you not read the N.T.?

I don't consider you a simpleton!

No where in the NT are we told to "kill" people who are homosexual or any other sort of sinners that are listed in those same verses - ie. adulterers, thiefs, and so forth.

You know that Joe - that's why I should not have to re-post almost the entire NT on this thread.

Jesus said - "It is written, an eye for an eye - but I say ....................."


We ALL should know at least the NT by now.



I am sure you also realize there was a time when the NT did not exist. All that existed was the OT, and it had two opposite commands. How would you reconcile those two commands?

GOD makes the rules - OT and then NT and it's not up to me or anyone else to question His laws.


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Hi Joe,

Yes, if God commanded me to go to war then it would be off to war I would go and hopefully I would fight as a warrior since that is the name of my site :) Actually, when I named my site, one of the warriors I thought about was a frriend of our family. Her son was shot five times and left to die in the street. When interviewd by the local paper she publicly forgave her son's murderer. So powerful especially when one considers that there was not enough evidence to bring the case to trial and the man , who actually bragged about the killing, walks the streets. This kind of power, to me, is the power of the warrior. Could I do the same? I am not sure. Yet I know that what I would or would not do would not do would have no bearing on the Truth...........Frank

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There are two kinds of non-resistors in regards to war, those who are afraid to die, and those who aren't willing to dirty their hands, but would certainly have someone else do it on their behalf. Neither would have fared well against Goliath.

Num 32:6 And Moses said unto the children of Gad and to the children of Reuben, Shall your brethren go to war, and shall ye sit here?

Should I sit here in comfort while my atheist neighbour goes to war allowing me to sit here, all the while I am chastising him for being there? That absolutely SCREAMS of hypocrisy, the stench of which is putrid in the nostrils of God.

Non-resistors simply seek to reap the spoils of war without the pains.

C
chapel


Old_Joe wrote:
BTW
The first gentile convert was Cornelian the Centurion, (a leader of 100 men in the army), and he stayed in his position. Acts 10.

The first gentile convert was a military man....

Interesting....


Resisting Nonresistance IV: Acts 10

Posted on May 30th, 2007

Posted by Thom under Christian Ethics

The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.” Talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?” Cornelius answered: “Four days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me and said, ‘Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.’ So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us.” Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached—how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him. We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days. (Acts 10:24-48)


The Basic Argument

Here is a third case of the same basic argument. If soldiering really is sinful for the Christian, God missed his third opportunity to make that clear to us, here in Acts 10. When Peter brought the kingdom of God to Cornelius’s household, he did not command the centurion to tender his resignation. This fact puts the final nail in the pacifist coffin. This third and final case leaves us with no doubt that the soldier’s life and the life of the Christian are not in conflict with one another, but can in fact coexist “peacefully,” as it were.

For Argument’s Sake

Despite the fact that this particular argument suffers from many of the same devastating problems as the arguments from Luke 3:14 and 7:1-10, it does have one advantage over them. While it may be argued that John the Baptist’s silence to the soldiers is explained by his limited understanding of the nature of the kingdom (as betrayed in Luke 7:18ff), and while it might possibly be conceded that Jesus’ silence to the centurion (also in Luke 7) is fairly explained by his limited mission to Israel, here in the case of Acts 10—Peter’s encounter with Cornelius—neither of these two points obtain. Clearly, if entrance into the kingdom required the renunciation of the sword, a post-Pentecost Peter would have understood that fact. Moreover, the limited nature of Jesus’ mission to Israel (to the exclusion of gentiles) ends exactly here in this very encounter of Peter (who holds the keys to the kingdom) with Cornelius, the first gentile citizen of the kingdom of God. If ever there was a time to speak out against Roman militarism, this seems to have been it! Yet Peter seems just as silent as Jesus and John.

Why the Argument Fails

Nevertheless, the problems with this reading far outweigh this single point in favor, and even this point is based on a mistake (I do not believe Peter was at all silent to Cornelius about the sword). We shall address that presently, but first it must be pointed out once again that even if it were the case that Peter was silent to Cornelius about the sword, the argument is still an argument from silence. There simply is no way of knowing that Peter did not address the issue at some other point in time. Or perhaps Peter did address it in his speech and Luke simply did not record it, for literary, political, or thematic reasons. For instance, given the socio-political conditions of Luke’s day, Cornelius’s renunciation of the sword very well could have been one of the obvious implications of his conversion. Luke did not record it because it was simply understood. Or perhaps Luke did not make explicit what would have been obvious to most insiders in order to protect Cornelius from the repercussions of having defected from the imperial army. Luke did not record it because such a record would have needlessly endangered Cornelius’s life. Perhaps both of those explanations are true. Or perhaps Luke did not mention the renunciation of Cornelius’s sword because—as a gentile himself—this event’s significance had more to do with the justification of the gentiles together with Israel, the reconciliation of two formerly estranged races of men. Luke did not record it because it was not the question driving his narrative, whereas the justification of the gentiles was. All of these readings are just as logically, textually, and contextually possible as the one posited by the nonpacifists. In fact, I would argue that the readings I have suggested (each compatible with the other) are much more likely readings than the reading that turns Peter’s alleged silence into the legitimization of the Roman military machine.

We must bear in mind that the Peter the nonpacifist reading suggests is at least tacitly approving of Roman militarism is the same Peter whose master was murdered by Roman “justice.” Peter was anti-Roman before Rome publicly executed his master. Are we to believe that after this gross miscarriage of justice Peter found good reason to think that Rome had become a just state, with a legitimate military agenda—that the empire of Caesar had somehow become compatible with the kingdom of the Messiah, the same Messiah the empire had no choice but to crucify? I think not. Especially since this particular injustice was only the culmination of centuries of the same. The resurrection of that Messiah from the dead changed a great many things for Peter, but are we to believe that the resurrection somehow magically transformed Rome from an unjust and idolatrous occupying force, in Peter’s eyes, into a legitimate state with legitimate interests? If that is what the resurrection accomplished, it only achieved on Rome’s behalf the objective of its propaganda. Nothing in this scenario has changed, except that Peter has now gone from being political to apolitical—which in effect just means that he has given his tacit political allegiance to whomever happens to be in charge.

But that is not at all what the resurrection means. The resurrection of the Messiah does not change what Rome is. Rather, the resurrection vindicates the one Rome crucified as the one who really is what Caesar claims to be—lord of the cosmos. What changes is not Rome’s nature. Rome’s nature remains idolatrous, rebellious, unjust, evil. What changes is how those who follow the Crucified One can relate to such evil. What changes is not Peter’s knowledge of Rome’s evil, but Peter’s approach to it—from sword-swinging zealotism to Spirit-baptizing pacifism, for if the one who was crucified was also resurrected, his renunciation of the sword becomes perfectly intelligible.

Indeed, we must bear in mind that the Peter who converts the centurion is the very same Peter who in the second chapter of his first epistle reminds us that all Christians share the same calling. “To this you were called,” Peter writes, “because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example that you should follow in his steps.” Does Peter have one standard for non-military Christians and another for centurions? We have no indication that he does. Silence, I am afraid, is not an indication of anything.

Yet church tradition is not silent about Cornelius’s profession. According to both Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox tradition, Cornelius renounced his allegiance to Caesar and became bishop of Caesarea. According to Orthodox tradition, Cornelius would later be executed in Ephesus for preaching against idolatry. Granted that such tradition is not Scripture, but neither is the tradition that Peter was crucified upside-down Scripture, or the tradition that Paul was beheaded at the command of the Roman emperor. Yet we have no stake in challenging those traditions. Moreover, neither traditional Roman Catholicism nor Eastern Orthodoxy sees the conflict that I see between being a soldier and a Christian. In other words, the tradition about Cornelius is not an apologetic thought up by some pacifist.

Frankly, I have no stake in the Catholic and Orthodox tradition about Cornelius. I only bring it up to demonstrate, yet again, that there are other possibilities than the one upon which the nonpacifists wish to claim the legitimacy of biblical pacifism hinges. Yet another possibility—which is actually what Luke says happened—is that Peter instructed Cornelius further about the demands of discipleship. Luke tells us in 10:48 that after their baptism, Cornelius “asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.” And that is no surprise. If I were a Roman centurion, and if I had just learned that the whole basis for my life’s work had been undermined by a Jew—a Jew executed by my own comrades-in-arms, no less!—I would want to hear more about it too.

One might ask in what way it can be said that Peter’s sermon undermined Cornelius’s whole life’s work. This brings us to the question of Peter’s alleged silence. Was Peter really silent about the sword in his sermon to Cornelius? Or are our own political categories obscuring the text from us? In Acts 10:36 Peter declares, “You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.” That phrase, “the euangelion of peace,” coupled with the fact that every scholar understands Peter’s sermon in Luke to be a condensed version of Peter’s actual sermon, leads me to the conviction that Peter was not silent, as is too often supposed, about the question of Cornelius’s sword. For what is the euangelion of peace through Jesus Christ if not a direct challenge to the euangelion of peace through Caesar?

In a postconstantinian world, it is no surprise that this tension implicit in the text should go undetected. Yet in the first century Roman world, it could not have been easily missed. Christians everywhere knew that to call Caesar lord was a denial of the lordship of Christ. Christians everywhere knew that the expansion of the kingdom into the gentile world was an extension of the command of Jesus to love the enemy. Christians, in other words, did not recognize the modern distinction between religion and politics. Religion was not about “spirituality” and politics about “public life.” For Christians, to be Christian meant to be a part of an alternative politic that challenged the politics of Caesar. To call Jesus “savior” and “lord” (these are political titles) was to call Caesar “not savior” and “not lord.” Everyone understood this, so much so that it would not have been necessary to make it explicit in conversion accounts such as that of Cornelius. To become a Christian in that context simply meant to give one’s allegiance to a different king and to adopt a different political agenda.[1] Hence Peter makes it clear in his sermon to Cornelius that the resurrection of the crucified Jew means that God has controverted Caesar’s claims, proclaiming Jesus of Nazareth to be “Lord of all” (10:36). As such, the Cornelius account would have been read in a context where the subversive (yet nonviolent) nature of what was then called “The Way” was simply understood—it went without saying. Yet it did not go without saying, because Peter preached a sermon on the euangelion of peace, not through Caesar’s Pax Romana, but through Jesus Christ, whom Rome crucified.

At this point I ought to make it clear that by emphasizing the political nature of Peter’s phrase (the good news of peace through Jesus Christ) I do not mean to deny the spiritual “aspect” of that peace. Yet we have made a mistake already once we have made an easy distinction between the “political” and the “spiritual” in the gospel story. That this peace is spiritual does not make it immaterial or apolitical. There is no way anyone in the Roman world would have understood “the euangelion of peace” to be an apolitical message. The word euangelion, from which we derive our “gospel” or “good news,” was a political term. For instance, when Rome had been victorious on a military campaign, a messenger would come back ahead of the camp to proclaim the good news (the euangelion) to the city, the good news that Caesar had once again been victorious. “Euangelion!” he would say. “The battle belongs to Caesar and to the Pax Romana!” Thus, when the messengers of a different king came proclaiming in precisely the same language that a political revolutionary the likes of whom Rome had already dispensed with had been vindicated by God as the true universal peacemaker, the challenge to Caesar’s legitimacy was wildly unambiguous.


Which brings us to the real problem with the nonpacifist interpretation of Cornelius’s conversion: it fails to see the entirely pacifistic thrust of the account itself. Remember that as a centurion, Cornelius is commissioned by Rome as a peacekeeper, according to their definition of peace. Caesar proclaims himself to be the universal peacemaker; he calls himself the son of god. Thus as an agent of Rome, Cornelius is an agent of Caesar’s peace. As such, the fact that Cornelius’s conversion was a subversive activity is painfully apparent. The account of the conversion of Cornelius is not an answer to the question of legitimate violence. It is a direct challenge to the Pax Romana of which Cornelius was formerly an agent. It is the conversion of Cornelius that heralds the beginning of the end of the enmity that for millennia had separated Jew from Gentile, Gentile from Jew—an enmity against which the Pax Romana was impotent. The conversion of Cornelius announces the truth that even homes bought by pagan violence are being visited by the peace of YHWH’s kingdom wrought by Christ. The conversion of Cornelius is indeed the proclamation to Jew and Gentile alike that in Christ—not under Caesar—peace has finally been established among the nations (Eph 2:14-15). To become a Christian is precisely, through the sufferings of Christ and the martyrs, to become established as a citizen of the very peaceable kingdom that the Caesars, through the wealth of the exploited and the blood of the barbarians, tried but failed to achieve.

Thom Stark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


[1] In fact, the very word “repent” as it was used in the first century quite naturally entails such a radical change of allegiance. Thus the Pharisee Josephus, after going over to the Romans during the Jewish War of 66-70, can shout out to his fellow Jews, “Repent, and you will be saved. For God is with the Romans.” Josephus wanted his kinsmen to “repent,” i.e., to join the winning side.


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sermonindex


Jesus-is-GOD wrote:

Old_Joe wrote:

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
Brother, have you not read the N.T.?

I don't consider you a simpleton!

No where in the NT are we told to "kill" people who are homosexual or any other sort of sinners that are listed in those same verses - ie. adulterers, thiefs, and so forth.

You know that Joe - that's why I should not have to re-post almost the entire NT on this thread.

Jesus said - "It is written, an eye for an eye - but I say ....................."


We ALL should know at least the NT by now.



I am sure you also realize there was a time when the NT did not exist. All that existed was the OT, and it had two opposite commands. How would you reconcile those two commands?

GOD makes the rules - OT and then NT and it's not up to me or anyone else to question His laws.


There are hundreds of other cases with opposing commands that need to be reconciled, this one is rather simple. Surely with your great Bible knowledge you can reconcile two opposing commands.

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Resistance is just, when it is to preserve the life of another.

Killing is just, when it is to preserve the life of an innocent or the lives of many.

In each case it is in the behalf of another.

This is why the OT commanded gross sinners to be killed. Their death preserved the lives of many in Israel, preventing them from being killed by their enemies, on account of the conditional promises of blessings and long life for obedience.

In the NT whether we live or die is not conditioned on a holy representation of God before the lost, therefore these commands are abrogated.


However the ending of one life to preserve the lives of many remains the honourable thing to do in representing God to a fallen world. To abstain from this is cowardice before God.

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Joe wrote: "However the ending of one life to preserve the lives of many remains the honourable thing to do in representing God to a fallen world.

To abstain from this is cowardice before God."

In this quote - This may seem 'noble' in your eyes but here, You are "speaking for God".

HOW do we know if the "war" we're enlisted to is God's Will to begin with?

Are all wars "Just wars" or "ordered by GOD"?

I would jump on an attacker of anyone to try to save the victims life and there are ways to save the victims life by not killing the attacker and this I know from at least two experiences I've had.

What we are saying by thinking that it's all "in our hands to save" is that GOD is Not In Control and that it's up to us to take control of all situations world wide.

Joe, in the arena, some would throw themselves over others so that the lions would get them instead of the others.

We are not to follow what the secular world thinks but the leading by The Holy Spirit.

A non-resistant would throw themselves in front of the person that the gun is being pointed at.

There are countless stories of the Missionaries, and through-out Church history where the non-resistants saved many many lives at the expense of their own.

We have NO FEAR of death - but do fear sending any unsaved person to Hell when it was not GOD's timing nor His Will.

GOD Will Provide a way for us to save lives without taking any.

If we cannot Trust GOD in this as we should in all things - by "walking in The Spirit" - as His Apostles and disciples have through-out Church History - then we are thinking by the world's standards ... which is normally to send the sinner to Hell ourselves, by our own hands.

Better a saved person die for the unsaved by not killing them.
Better to trust GOD to play out His own will than to take things into our own hands.

Either we can Trust GOD or we can't --- but He said that every hair on our heads are numbered and that He is even in control of a sparrow's fall.

Our first obligation to mankind is to keep them out of Hell and not send them there by killing them.

GOD is able to save the lives of those whom He puts in our paths by His power and by our willingness to lay down our lives for them - Amen - HE IS ABLE.

If it's His will for them to live - they will live. If it is His will for any to die - they will die and this He has proven in His Trust-worthy Word.

Non-resistants through-out the bulk of Church History are not known to God as cowards - only if you haven't read much of Church History or have a worldly mind-set.

Edit: I think of the Corrie Ten Boom family - just for one.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Jesus-is-God,

I would jump on an attacker of anyone to try to save the victims life and there are ways to save the victims life by not killing the attacker and this I know from at least two experiences I've had.

This is resisting. While you wouldn't [i]kill[/i] anyone, this is not adhering to the extreme end of "turning the other cheek" in every circumstance. This is what we are saying. No one is WANTING, TRYING or HOPING to [u]kill[/u] someone. Rather, this speaks to the extent to which believers can participate in the defense of OTHERS (the weak, your family, etc...) or to serve in the military or police department. In my opinion, the Scriptures seem to clearly indicate that such institutions (whether kings, governors, authorities or principalities) are "ordained of God" as "instruments of righteousness."

This is why I asked if it would be "righteous" thing to defend someone (like a child or wife) from an attacker. I also wonder if it would be an "unrighteous" thing to simply stand by and not intervene on behalf of others.

S
sermonindex

Brother, do you know a "righteous" government on earth?

I follow Roms 13 - as the LORD would have us do whether they be righteous or not.

This is my concern. In many many nations, the powers that be are far from righteous and even now in our own country we see un-just laws that our own police and military are having to carry out.

As I asked pages ago - what do you do when it is 'them' that are man-handling your wife?

I feel your heart and have wished to share mine.

I gave Corrie Ten Boom and family as an example on the bottom of the previous page.

We're only "resisting" in my mind, when we ourselves are being attacked - protecting another is not "resisting" .... but when it is coming from our own police or military - my fear is for those who own guns and try to "resist".


C
chapel

Heb. 10:32-36
32 Think back on those early days when you first learned about Christ.* Remember how you remained faithful even though it meant terrible suffering. 33 Sometimes you were exposed to public ridicule and were beaten, and sometimes you helped others who were suffering the same things. 34 You suffered along with those who were thrown into jail, and when all you owned was taken from you, you accepted it with joy. You knew there were better things waiting for you that will last forever.
35 So do not throw away this confident trust in the Lord. Remember the great reward it brings you! 36 Patient endurance is what you need now, so that you will continue to do God’s will. Then you will receive all that he has promised.
NLT

Seems pretty clear, doesn’t it?

Heb. 12:18-25
18 You have not come to a physical mountain,* to a place of flaming fire, darkness, gloom, and whirlwind, as the Israelites did at Mount Sinai. 19 For they heard an awesome trumpet blast and a voice so terrible that they begged God to stop speaking. 20 They staggered back under God’s command: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death.”* 21 Moses himself was so frightened at the sight that he said, “I am terrified and trembling.”*
22 No, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to countless thousands of angels in a joyful gathering. 23 You have come to the assembly of God’s firstborn children, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God himself, who is the judge over all things. You have come to the spirits of the righteous ones in heaven who have now been made perfect. 24 You have come to Jesus, the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks of forgiveness instead of crying out for vengeance like the blood of Abel.
25 Be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the One who is speaking. For if the people of Israel did not escape when they refused to listen to Moses, the earthly messenger, we will certainly not escape if we reject the One who speaks to us from heaven!
NLT

“Which speaks of forgiveness instead of crying out for vengeance”

Romans 12:19-21
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. [20] Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

[u]"Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." [/u]

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sermonindex

"However the ending of one life to preserve the lives of many remains the honourable thing to do in representing God to a fallen world. To abstain from this is cowardice before God." old joe

Wait a minute here. You're the one who posted that we shouldn't be making 'hard and fast rules' and therefore should follow the leading of the spirit. Now you are basically calling those who follow this leading via scripture cowards. You want it both ways(ccchhhrrriiss, here's your cowardice remark that you failed to see anyone use). Okay tough guy Joe, that's fine.

"However the ending of one life to preserve the lives of many remains the honourable thing to do in representing God to a fallen world"old joe

So are you for grabbing a rifle and taking out abortion doctors??

S
sermonindex

"Should I sit here in comfort while my atheist neighbour goes to war allowing me to sit here, all the while I am chastising him for being there? That absolutely SCREAMS of hypocrisy, the stench of which is putrid in the nostrils of God." old joe

Give me a break, you're putting words in people's mouths. Who has said here that someone would chastise an atheist for this? The whole premise for the debate is for believers. Do you see any atheists here hashing the Bible in sincerity of belief??

"Non-resistors simply seek to reap the spoils of war without the pains."old joe

Joe here you are again being a hypocrite. You say we should impose 'no hard and fast rules' and follow the leading of the spirit yet you presume to know the minds of those who take a stance that requires what they think is biblical restraint. The spoils one reaps are the spoils God gives, or do you simply think man is in charge?

Also, if you are a Christian living in the Congo, are a citizen, and are ordered by your gov't to invade a neighboring territory and slay a village full of women and children whose leaders are militants, are you going to grab your 'gun butt' and take care of business? If it was told to you to take 'no prisoners' are you going to finish the job just like Joshua?? I mean in the OT children were killed and I see you invoke the OT alot in your justification. Was Paul just talking about the United States when he was discussing civil obedience?? Did the Holy Spirit not know that Communism and Dictatorships were to be part of many a nation in the forthcoming years?? As a Christian would you have demanded those who resist based on their beliefs to follow Hitler lest they reap the spoils while not wanting the required pain???? Had you saw the Jews as a threat to YOUR freedom, would you have put on your fatigues and hold your arm straight forward?? Had anyone in that military resisted because they were a Christian it could have ministered and they probably would have been killed. Should North Korean Christians sign up and invade the South if N. Korea deems it a threat to their country?? Should the Christian Chinese enter into their Red Army?? Is the underground Christian church made up of a bunch of cowards? Should they crawl out of their cowardly little hole and say 'were sorry, we'll do whatever you want because our civil loyalty trumps everything, can we have our rifles now?'. I don't remember Paul stating that civil obedience was just for those countries that had a democracy and defended the innocent. Tell me, what nations were around then that fit that description?? You seem to define your theology based on your personal situation based on the country you live, yet Paul was not bound by this.

"That absolutely SCREAMS of hypocrisy, the stench of which is putrid in the nostrils of God." oj

Yeah there's plenty of stench there huh??

S
sermonindex


ccrider wrote:
So are you for grabbing a rifle and taking out abortion doctors??

Are you for the police shooting the killer while he has his sight set on the doctor?

S
sermonindex

I never made a statement either way on that but someone with a non-resistant view as it pertains to much of what has been discussed, would not be there in the first place to set the crosshairs... you however made the statement about defending the innocent to make the point... will you defend it or not.

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone,


I realise that this is somewhat behind but I thought it was worth bringing to mention again,


"While it may be argued that John the Baptist’s silence to the soldiers is explained by his limited understanding of the nature of the kingdom (as betrayed in Luke 7:18ff),"


I'm mentioning this, because, in another post, this same passage from Luke 3:14, was also qouted, but only so much of it as said...


"do violence to no man...".


John the Baptist was not speaking in ignorance, or in limited knowledge, when he gave the answer he did to the soldiers, in response to their question "and what shall we do?".


He [b]was not[/b] speaking in ignorance to them, he was speaking for God, [b]the very words of God[/b](John 1:6, 3:34). There was never a greater prophet of those that were born of women, than John.

He was sent by God to prepare the way for God, and on that day, he answered the soldiers, not by his own answer, but by God's.


He told them to, as I understand the context to signifiy, not do any unjust harm to anyone or anything that belongs to them, to not accuse them falsely (in the coruse of carrying out their duties) as being a solider at that time might have given them occasion to have to accuse others of something, and he said to them:

[b]be content with your wages[/b]. The wages of being a soldier.


Yes, by all means, we may bring to bear more and more scriuptures to help us understand something; but it is only commendable if we do so, if we mention them in their entirety when the subject demands it, an we apply them rightly.

S
sermonindex


ccrider wrote:
"Should I sit here in comfort while my atheist neighbour goes to war allowing me to sit here, all the while I am chastising him for being there? That absolutely SCREAMS of hypocrisy, the stench of which is putrid in the nostrils of God." old joe

Give me a break, you're putting words in people's mouths. Who has said here that someone would chastise an atheist for this? The whole premise for the debate is for believers. Do you see any atheists here hashing the Bible in sincerity of belief??


If what you are preaching is the truth, it has to apply to the saved and the lost. You must be preaching against the atheist going to war just as much as the Christian.


"Non-resistors simply seek to reap the spoils of war without the pains."old joe

Joe here you are again being a hypocrite. You say we should impose 'no hard and fast rules' and follow the leading of the spirit yet you presume to know the minds of those who take a stance that requires what they think is biblical restraint.


I didn't expect you would like that, but it's true.


Also, if you are a Christian living in the Congo, are a citizen, and are ordered by your gov't to invade a neighboring territory and slay a village full of women and children whose leaders are militants, are you going to grab your 'gun butt' and take care of business? If it was told to you to take 'no prisoners' are you going to finish the job just like Joshua?? I mean in the OT children were killed and I see you invoke the OT alot in your justification. Was Paul just talking about the United States when he was discussing civil obedience?? Did the Holy Spirit not know that Communism and Dictatorships were to be part of many a nation in the forthcoming years?? As a Christian would you have demanded those who resist based on their beliefs to follow Hitler lest they reap the spoils while not wanting the required pain???? Had you saw the Jews as a threat to YOUR freedom, would you have put on your fatigues and hold your arm straight forward?? Had anyone in that military resisted because they were a Christian it could have ministered and they probably would have been killed. Should North Korean Christians sign up and invade the South if N. Korea deems it a threat to their country?? Should the Christian Chinese enter into their Red Army??

Actually, I would join up to the opposing army and do my part to OPPOSE those groups you mentioned. You on the other hand would just sit there and complain how unjust war is while Hitler and all the other baddies you described killed everyone else.

You remember wars have two sides.

S
sermonindex

"Actually, I would join up to the opposing army and do my part to OPPOSE those groups you mentioned." oj

So you wouldn't obey the gov't that supports this type of war as a Christian but would join the opposing via defection thereby not obeying the secular gov't of that which you were part of in the first place. I get it.

"You on the other hand would just sit there and complain how unjust war is while Hitler and all the other baddies you described killed everyone else."oj

Really, there would be no danger in resisting Hitler's army by flaunting disobedience? I think there would be a better chance of survival by your defection method. And yes Hitler's war was unjust.. do you disagree?

S
sermonindex

"You must be preaching against the atheist going to war just as much as the Christian." oj

That's an opinion. Some see Paul discussing the secular state as who God used to protect. But I'm not going to delve into all that for the sake of brevity.

C
ChrisJD

Hi again everyone.


I wanted to say that for my own part, I have not intended by my participation in this thread to convince anyone that is a believer that they should fight in wars or to participate in civil affairs that may involve violence. Or that they should not do so.

I do hope though that some of the things mentioned are enough to give us serious pause and carefullness in the limits that we may go in making pronouncements and jugdments about others that do participate in those things.


I can understand the difficulty in coming to a full understanding of this subject and I think it is one that involves a large overview of the scriptures in their entirety and I think it is a subject that needs to be handled with great skilfullness and consideration, especially as it is discussed in a public forum.


I wish you all well.

S
sermonindex

edit

S
sermonindex


ccrider wrote:
"You must be preaching against the atheist going to war just as much as the Christian." oj

That's an opinion. Some see Paul discussing the secular state as who God used to protect. But I'm not going to delve into all that for the sake of brevity.

Let's put the whole quote in there

"[b]If what you are preaching is the truth, it has to apply to the saved and the lost.[/b] You must be preaching against the atheist going to war just as much as the Christian." Old Joe

There is no opinion about. There is one truth for all mankind, either you preach it to all or none.

S
sermonindex


ccrider wrote:
I guess I like it no better than you being a hypocrite, which is equally true.

I consider being called a hypocrite by you, a badge of honour.

Wear yours proudly too. ;-)

S
sermonindex

If what you are preaching is the truth, it has to apply to the saved and the lost. You must be preaching against the atheist going to war just as much as the Christian." Old Joe

Another hard and fast rule that you previously admonished against. If I were strictly a legalist as in, do this, not that, that's how I would preach.


'I consider being called a hypocrite by you, a badge of honour.

Wear yours proudly too." oj


Nothing better than pride and self honor, the staples of Christianity.

I want to make sure though that I understand you right based on your posts.

The general premise of how you see brothers and sisters who have a certain theology is apparant. Now let me get this straight: they are 'cowardly' and want to 'reap something for doing nothing' as in 'avioding pain, as a coward, to live comfortably'. Does this sound about right??


S
sermonindex


Old_Joe wrote:

ccrider wrote:
"You must be preaching against the atheist going to war just as much as the Christian." oj

That's an opinion. Some see Paul discussing the secular state as who God used to protect. But I'm not going to delve into all that for the sake of brevity.

Let's put the whole quote in there

"[b]If what you are preaching is the truth, it has to apply to the saved and the lost.[/b] You must be preaching against the atheist going to war just as much as the Christian." Old Joe

There is no opinion about. There is one truth for all mankind, either you preach it to all or none.


Goodness Joe - wouldn't it be absolutely horrible if every nation quit killing?


G
ginnyrose

So then you agree that there is a time to kill, and a time not to kill.

Yes, I agree. And I do not know of any one else who believes in Biblical non-resistance who will not agree. BUT the difference is who does it. This is the rub and therein lies the disagreements of this thread.

Jesus calls us to be peacemakers and to love our enemies. This is the mission of the church and as blood-washed saints we must be ever about the Master's work, allowing Him to use us a s vessels through whom his work will be accomplished.

This is in direct contrast to the function of the civil government who purpose is to maintain law and order. Paul teaches us this in Romans 13:1-6.

Now I can reasonably predict the next question...

In thinking about this issue and the disagreements about it as evidenced on this thread, may I suggest that since there is a wide range of opinions on this issue, that we learn to practice Biblical non-resistance in our everyday walk of life, in how we relate to others, especially to those who do us wrong or we think they do.

How do we respond when someone passes us on the road and then cuts in sharply in front of us? Or, if the cashier short changes us? Or, our spouse, do we love him/her as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her? Or, our children, do we fly off the handle when they make a mess? Will we cheerfully help them clean it up? Will we give up a social event so we can spend more time with our family? Or, how about a co-worker who is lazy and does not do his job? How often do we get mad when things do not go our way?

Biblical nonresistance teaches us how to respond to these types of situations, not just in the defending of one's country by serving in the military.

Old Joe, I wish you would go to this thread and read it in its entirely. This testimony has blessed many. Here it is: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=30264&forum=34&4

ginnyrose

W
wind_blows

Seriously this has to be the one of the saddest threads I have ever read. I have not been a christian for as long as most of you here, I will gladly admit that you all have way more knowledge then I do, but serious guys? Twenty-two pages of back and forth why its alright or not for a christian to kill people? You can say that is not what this thread is about but read through it, that is how it comes across to the lost, (was sharing this site with my unsaved family member, he got a really good laugh over this thread. He told me we are all just as argumentative and wanting to push our opinions as the so called unsaved he hangs out with! As far as he is concerned he did not see any of the so called love I was telling him about?)

Maybe its time to just let this thread die? No pun intended, maybe we just agree to say I love you and I know you love me in Christ and which ever one of us needs our eyes opened we trust that God will do it in His timing??
Cause seriously guys its really not saying to much when followers of Christ who are commanded to love thy enemies spend so much time and energy arguing about this stuff:-(

Now I should tell you before anyone tries to pm or yell at me, I am leaving for home this afternoon and I won't be back on again for awhile(how long is in the Lords hands) I will be praying for everyone of us though, may we just let go of all the useless dribble and be about His Kingdom today!!!!

Your little sis in Him
Elizabeth

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sermonindex

..."Seriously this has to be the one of the saddest threads I have ever read. I have not been a christian for as long as most of you here, I will gladly admit that you all have way more knowledge then I do, but serious guys? Twenty-two pages of back and forth why its alright or not for a christian to kill people? You can say that is not what this thread is about but read through it, that is how it comes across to the lost, (was sharing this site with my unsaved family member, he got a really good laugh over this thread. He told me we are all just as argumentative and wanting to push our opinions as the so called unsaved he hangs out with! As far as he is concerned he did not see any of the so called love I was telling him about?)

Maybe its time to just let this thread die? No pun intended, maybe we just agree to say I love you and I know you love me in Christ and which ever one of us needs our eyes opened we trust that God will do it in His timing??
Cause seriously guys its really not saying to much when followers of Christ who are commanded to love thy enemies spend so much time and energy arguing about this stuff

Now I should tell you before anyone tries to pm or yell at me, I am leaving for home this afternoon and I won't be back on again for awhile(how long is in the Lords hands) I will be praying for everyone of us though, may we just let go of all the useless dribble and be about His Kingdom today!!!!" Your little sis in Him
Elizabeth

.................................


This needed to be said. I want to apologize to those who I may have offended with my arguments.
Old Joe, I'll wear a badge of regret for things I've said to you. I'm a little torn on all this and there seems to be no easy answers. I think the innocent and weak need to be defended (there's no way I would let someone wreak havoc on my children or others for that matter) and I also believe we are to be peacemakers and show the love of Christ... how could that not be a tough one to chew on??? But regardless, the manner of discussion is just as important as the topic discussed and I can drop the ball on this much more than I should. Again I apologize. Thanks. Blessings to all.

cc-

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sermonindex

I have been thinking for quite a while that this thread had ran its course. Thats just my opinion :) The reason I personally believe that it is so important is becuase I believe that the time is coming soon, very soon, where it will no longer be acceptable to be sold out to Jesus. So, if you are a policeman or a soldier and they tell you to round up your brothers and sister, then a dilema follows. To me, it is no different than the dilema that the Scottish soldiers faced in WWI when they were commanded to kill their German counterparts, the very ones that they had gotton to know on a snowy Christmas eve, shared pictures of their families, played soccer, and even had a service together to celebrate the birth of Jesus. That particular group of soldiers were disbanded and the minister who took the service was sent back to Scotland. An anicdote? Perhaps. The war to end all wars ? No. This is my last post on this thread. Apart from a couple of posts I think it has been very revealing. God bless you all in the name of Jesus........Frank

C
ChrisJD

Hi again all,


Not to take away from what Elisabeth had wrote, but I wanted to respond to something that Ginnyrose posted. Hopefully it will be complimentary to both.

"And I do not know of any one else who believes in Biblical non-resistance who will not agree. BUT the difference is who does it. This is the rub and therein lies the disagreements of this thread.

Jesus calls us to be peacemakers and to love our enemies. This is the mission of the church and as blood-washed saints we must be ever about the Master's work, allowing Him to use us a s vessels through whom his work will be accomplished.

This is in direct contrast to the function of the civil government who purpose is to maintain law and order. Paul teaches us this in Romans 13:1-6.

Now I can reasonably predict the next question..."

...whether or not it is permissable for a Christian to participate in God ordanined functions of civil government.

For those who say yes or no to that question, it may be worth considering how much damage could be done to the conscience of others by pursuading them in error either way.

W
White_Stone

In the old testament there were rules for every step of conduct - still the people were not able to follow them.
God had a better plan in Jesus. The Old Testament was the basis of this plan, it proved the need for the New Testament, for Jesus' blood sacrifice.

In the New Testament there are few rules set in stone beyond the trusting and believing in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior and following in His footsteps.

We are to be filled with the Holy Spirit, to imprint His Holy Word in our hearts and minds, then when it is time to act. if we have been successful in killing 'self' it will be Him acting through us.

This whole thread is full of people who want to go back to the Old Testament times, to have every action spelled out. On the surface it sounds as if that would be ideal but it would quickly be a burden and a legal tangle. People would rebel, it would not work now, it did not work the first time.

Jesus came to set us free from that. Why do you keep looking back. Remember Lot's wife?

No matter what anyone of you may say, I know if your family was on the line you would not, could not, sit by and simply say, "Whatever God wills." This would be the same as saying to a brother in Christ, 'Be ye warmed,' and not offering the means to warm him when the means were at your hand.

It is really that simple.

To me, if someone chooses non-combat service, it makes no matter. Someone has to do the job they take. Combat is not for everyone as well as non-combat is not for everyone. It is not my job to judge. My goal is to press on to the target, to run to win.

That job of killing 'self' is the hardest, this is where many choose a no-kill position and then lose the battle. Think about it.

Kind regards,
white stone

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sermonindex

Ginnyrose, thank you for your post. I downloaded "Hey Peachy" to show to my unsaved Dad.

What prompted me to participate in this thread is all of my travels on the Internet, in "christian" circles and what I am hearing.

I mentioned it once already on this thread, but as we speak, many are preparing to defend "their rights & freedoms" in 'this' country, as we speak.

Threads like these must get out there.

This is not a small movement that I'm discussing, but a movement that is growing each and every day.

We can say that we've "died to self" and all - but to die to self is to "live for others" and threads like this are needed for those 'others.'

In the case of persecution or the loss of liberties or property, etc - unless we prepare our hearts now, we may be tempted to fight back and as Ginnyrose said so well - a mind-set ready for persecution and so forth does not come naturally nor instantly, but is developed and for that reason I am very grateful for this thread and any others like it. Very grateful.

Overcomers start with the simple examples that Ginnyrose gave ---

[i]"How do we respond when someone passes us on the road and then cuts in sharply in front of us? Or, if the cashier short changes us? Or, our spouse, do we love him/her as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her? Or, our children, do we fly off the handle when they make a mess? Will we cheerfully help them clean it up? Will we give up a social event so we can spend more time with our family? Or, how about a co-worker who is lazy and does not do his job? How often do we get mad when things do not go our way?

Biblical nonresistance teaches us how to respond to these types of situations, not just in the defending of one's country by serving in the military."[/i]

I see the last day's overcomers in Hebrews 11:36-38.


The sales of guns have gone up dramatically since last year, by both christians and non-christians and 'foreign' invasions were not their main motive for their purchases.

I've inadvertently directed a few large 'Patriot' forums to this Site & thread - if one knows what the newer definition of that title entails.

All we can do is pray now, that God will anoint our eyes with eyesalve, that we may see our Shepherd and the way in which He would have us to go, should we see the country that we live in go. Free nations are slow learners when it comes to the lessons that countries like China & others have had to learn by now and the hard way.
Once we kill someone, we can never bring them back to get saved.


Give us 'Your' Eyes Lord, I pray.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Jesus-is-God,

I mentioned it once already on this thread, but as we speak, many are preparing to defend "their rights & freedoms" in 'this' country, as we speak.

What does it matter if there are people who live in this nation who are petitioning their government in regard to rights that are supposed to be guaranteed by the Constitution...or by those rights that are considered "inalienable" by the Declaration of Independence? If I remember correctly, there was a persistent widow who petitioned an unrighteous judge to move on her behalf. While such a petition for justice might not seem like a very "spiritual" thing to do, the Pharisees and Sadducees tried to "catch" Jesus when they made a similar fuss over taxes.

Earlier, you asked if I knew of any "righteous" government on the Earth. I think that is the wrong question. It isn't a question of whether or not the government (made of elected fellow INDIVIDUALS from the nation of our temporary citizenship) is righteous, but whether or not God uses governments as an "instrument of righteousness." From what I read and understood from the Scriptures, God has raised up governments to disperse righteousness and justice -- especially upon wrongdoers (I Peter 2:13-17).

What prompted me to participate in this thread is all of my travels on the Internet, in "christian" circles and what I am hearing.

...and what prompted me to participate in this thread was to show that there are other perspectives about this issue from sincere believers who love the Lord with all of their hearts. I must confess that I have been disappointed when some "non-resistant" believers (even in this thread) seem to dismiss the views -- and even the faith -- of those with whom they disagree. Ultimately, as I have said before, I have searched the Scriptures prayerfully and diligently and have found nothing that seems to absolutely prohibit service by believers in the military, the police department, or in defending their families and the weak. I have read all of the passages presented by the non-resistant brethren, embrace those passages for what they are, but I still cannot embrace the interpretation as presented by the "non-resistant" brethren. I am not participating in this thread to argue or in an attempt to persuade the non-resistant brethren to change their views. Rather, I simply hope to utter a voice of caution toward those who might dismiss the careful, prayerful views of those with whom they disagree as "damnable heresy" (as one "non-resistant" brother said earlier).
What prompted me to participate in this thread is all of my travels on the Internet, in "christian" circles and what I am hearing.

While I have seen some articles about this surge in gun purchases following the election last year, I would hesitate to act as if I know the underlying motive of most purchasers. Of course, I am not saying that you are suggesting such a thing; however, you brought this up and failed to complete the thought. I do think that it would be a stretch to suppose that these purchases are for any sort of "revolutionary" reason. In fact, a scientific "exit poll" that was directed toward gun purchases since the election indicated that the major rationale for these purchases was the fear that Obama (and a liberal Congress) would attempt to pass restrictions on "the right to bear arms" or make it more difficult for some individuals to purchase them. In fact, the most recent figure that I have seen pointed out that the most dramatic increase in sales belonged to single shot rifles -- which are typically used for hunting. Thus, I think that it would be a bit hasty to "connect dots" between this rise in gun purchases and any sort of suggestion that insinuates a more dire rationale.

All we can do is pray now, that God will anoint our eyes with eyesalve, that we may see our Shepherd and the way in which He would have us to go, should we see the country that we live in go. Free nations are slow learners when it comes to the lessons that countries like China & others have had to learn by now and the hard way.
Oddly enough, there are individuals living in nations that restrict the free exercise of faith who are praying that they might have the type of freedom that we enjoy in this nation. It is this cause for which Pastor Richard Wurmbrand stood before Congress and implored them to act on behalf of the underground, persecuted Church in Communist nations.
Once we kill someone, we can never bring them back to get saved.

This is true. Hopefully, every believer (including "non-resistant" brethren and those who don't embrace every aspect of their "non-resistant" views) are ALREADY doing what they can to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a world that is lost and dying.

S
sermonindex

Forgive that my replies are in bold. I don't know how to reply between multiple quotes yet.


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Jesus-is-God,
I mentioned it once already on this thread, but as we speak, many are preparing to defend "their rights & freedoms" in 'this' country, as we speak.

Chris replied: What does it matter if there are people who live in this nation who are petitioning their government in regard to rights that are supposed to be guaranteed by the Constitution...or by those rights that are considered "inalienable" by the Declaration of Independence? If I remember correctly, there was a persistent widow who petitioned an unrighteous judge to move on her behalf. While such a petition for justice might not seem like a very "spiritual" thing to do, the Pharisees and Sadducees tried to "catch" Jesus when they made a similar fuss over taxes.

[b]Chris, you obviously did not understand my post at all. Are you endorsing "defending rights and freedoms" with weapons? - because that was what I was obviously referring to.[/b]

Earlier, you asked if I knew of any "righteous" government on the Earth. I think that is the wrong question. It isn't a question of whether or not the government (made of elected fellow INDIVIDUALS from the nation of our temporary citizenship) is righteous, but whether or not God uses governments as an "instrument of righteousness." From what I read and understood from the Scriptures, God has raised up governments to disperse righteousness and justice -- especially upon wrongdoers (I Peter 2:13-17).

[b]Here you are taking away from the post that I was replying to.
I asked, how you will respond if a Nation's military or law enforcement carry-out unrighteous deeds against your wife - where you said that they are in place to carry out God's righteousness. Again, it is so very easy to talk this way in a free nation.
I'm truly sorry that you've missed the whole point of my post above. Very sorry.[/b]


What prompted me to participate in this thread is all of my travels on the Internet, in "christian" circles and what I am hearing.

Chris replied: While I have seen some articles about this surge in gun purchases following the election last year, I would hesitate to act as if I know the underlying motive of most purchasers. Of course, I am not saying that you are suggesting such a thing; however, you brought this up and failed to complete the thought. I do think that it would be a stretch to suppose that these purchases are for any sort of "revolutionary" reason. In fact, a scientific "exit poll" that was directed toward gun purchases since the election indicated that the major rationale for these purchases was the fear that Obama (and a liberal Congress) would attempt to pass restrictions on "the right to bear arms" or make it more difficult for some individuals to purchase them. In fact, the most recent figure that I have seen pointed out that the most dramatic increase in sales belonged to single shot rifles -- which are typically used for hunting. Thus, I think that it would be a bit hasty to "connect dots" between this rise in gun purchases and any sort of suggestion that insinuates a more dire rationale.

[b]Chris, maybe you could bear it if I say that in this particular opinion of yours that you are quite naive. As I also said in that earlier post - I have the sites, but will not post those numerous forums that cover these things - but the concensus runs thus - "You'll get my gun when you pry it out of my cold dead frozen fingers."[/b]



All we can do is pray now, that God will anoint our eyes with eyesalve, that we may see our Shepherd and the way in which He would have us to go, should we see the country that we live in go. Free nations are slow learners when it comes to the lessons that countries like China & others have had to learn by now and the hard way.

Chris replied: Oddly enough, there are individuals living in nations that restrict the free exercise of faith who are praying that they might have the type of freedom that we enjoy in this nation. It is this cause for which Pastor Richard Wurmbrand stood before Congress and implored them to act on behalf of the underground, persecuted Church in Communist nations.

[b]My posts were toward us being spiritually, emotionally & mentally prepared to possibly see these freedoms taken from us as far as how we'd 'respond'.
I repeated that same theme through-out.[/b]


Once we kill someone, we can never bring them back to get saved.

Chris replied: This is true. Hopefully, every believer (including "non-resistant" brethren and those who don't embrace every aspect of their "non-resistant" views) are ALREADY doing what they can to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a world that is lost and dying.


[b]And then we can - Quote from a post on SI: "Nuke 'em" --- right?

For someone who claims to not desire to change a non-resistant's mind - you haven't convinced me of that with this last post.

You didn't even understand what or who I was posting about and why.

Richard Wurmbrand would be good to read right now, as well a Foxe's book of Martyrs, the Martyr's Mirror and several others that have been recommended here over the years.

Prepare your mind & emotions for your response to persecution and when losing your precious freedoms.

One of our Classic Authors on this Site said: "If you can't preach it to Every Nation on earth than don't preach it." - and on this issue, that is the bottomline.[/b]

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Jesus-is-God,


Chris, you obviously did not understand my post at all. Are you endorsing "defending rights and freedoms" with weapons? - because that was what I was obviously referring to.

Actually, I did understand your post. No, I am NOT endorsing a violent march against the government by those who own weapons. However, I feel that the question itself is moot because I don't see anyone actually doing that. What I was saying is that the New Testament contains an anecdote regarding a woman who petitioned an "unrighteous judge" to move on her behalf. Sometimes, I am concerned that those who reject believers who believe in certain forms of involvement with the nation that God has placed us might not be any different than the Pharisees who talked about tax collectors as "sinners" (Luke 18:9-14). But, in answer to your question: No, I was not endorsing armed individuals violently marching through the street to demand rights. However, I also don't think that your intent was so "obvious" within the position of your last post.
Here you are taking away from the post that I was replying to.
I asked, how you will respond if a Nation's military or law enforcement carry-out unrighteous deeds against your wife - where you said that they are in place to carry out God's righteousness. Again, it is so very easy to talk this way in a free nation.
I'm truly sorry that you've missed the whole point of my post above. Very sorry.

Huh? Brother, you don't have to be so "sorry" and "very sorry" by incorrectly assuming that I missed your point. I was referring to your earlier post in which you asked, "[i]Brother, do you know a "righteous" government on earth?[/i]" While I understood the extent to what you were referring, I thought that my perspective was still valid to the discussion.

I believe that God uses governments as an "instrument of righteousness." In answer to your question, I believe that there are decisions that supersede other decisions. I covered this in several of my earlier posts. I believe that a person should not resort to physical means of resistance UNLESS there is a cause by which doing nothing is superseded by a need to intervene. If a government attempted to bring about unwarranted harm to my wife or family, I would certainly resist it.

Of course, there are other forms of "resistance" than mere physical fighting. I would do whatever I could to bring remedy WITHOUT resorting to physical restraint. I would first pray, then petition the government or government worker. However, I would defend my wife if an armed government worker broke into my home and attempted to harm my wife or family at the whims of an unrighteous decree. If you remember, there was a Roman soldier who was going to flog Paul the apostle. Paul "resisted" this by quoting the secular law to this Roman soldier. Paul realized that this was an unrighteous act by this Roman soldier, and effectively told him so. Ultimately, Paul "appealed unto Caesar" and used the Roman legal system in order to carry the Gospel to Caesar and Rome.

Chris, maybe you could bear it if I say that in this particular opinion of yours that you are quite naive. As I also said in that earlier post - I have the sites, but will not post those numerous forums that cover these things - but the concensus runs thus - "You'll get my gun when you pry it out of my cold dead frozen fingers."

Call me "naive" all you want, but I disagree with your assessment of the situation. I have known plenty of people who are a part of the NRA and believe in the Constitutional right of gun ownership. I have known people who have had the "cold dead fingers" bumper sticker on their cars and trucks. However, most of them just think that it is a quirky slogan and not a mandate for violence against liberal legislators. Of course, I wouldn't wear such a shirt. However, I think that it is quite capricious to suggest that there is a possibly violent revolution brewing by gun owners right now against the government. In fact, most of the gun owners that I have ever known would be the least likely to shoot at anyone in the government. Sure, there might be some exceptions to the rule. However, most gun owners are NOT looking to fight the government. They prefer to use arms in order to hunt for food or to protect their families (if need be).
My posts were toward us being spiritually, emotionally & mentally prepared to possibly see these freedoms taken from us as far as how we'd 'respond'.
I repeated that same theme through-out.

I'm not sure that this was the underlying theme of ALL of your statements, but I do understand your point. Of course, that was the rationale behind what I wrote. I believe that there is nothing in Scripture that absolutely prohibits believers from voting, petitioning the government for just or righteous causes, from serving in the military or police department or from defending a family member from an attacker.

In your hypothetical scenario of a government attempting to take away our "rights," I would not sit by quietly while watching someone attempt to take away those "rights." Now, I am NOT saying that I would resort to violence. I would petition the government just as Paul petitioned the Roman guard who was about to beat him. In fact, some of our Constitutional "rights" ARE under scrutiny (or even attack). In California (where I live), liberals have already gone to extreme measures in their attempt to remove any public expression of faith away from public schools or government. They wouldn't allow the mention of Jesus Christ in a school, but some schools recently played homosexual propaganda cartoons to school children. I believe that we can use the legal system of this nation to show how this is a misapplication of the Constitution's idea of First Amendment "liberty."

At the same time, I think that we should ALWAYS be prepared for whatever comes our way. If persecution comes to America, we should be prepared to endure through it. We should be prepared in case believers are forced to endure through the great period of tribulation during the time of God's wrath. At the same time, I also believe that the duty that God has charged me with as the man of my house has not changed.


And then we can - Quote from a post on SI: "Nuke 'em" --- right?

For someone who claims to not desire to change a non-resistant's mind - you haven't convinced me of that with this last post.

You didn't even understand what or who I was posting about and why.

Richard Wurmbrand would be good to read right now, as well a Foxe's book of Martyrs, the Martyr's Mirror and several others that have been recommended here over the years.

Prepare your mind & emotions for your response to persecution and when losing your precious freedoms.

One of our Classic Authors on this Site said: "If you can't preach it to Every Nation on earth than don't preach it." - and on this issue, that is the bottomline.


Well, brother, we can agree to disagree. Regardless of whether you believe it or not, my goal in entering into this discussion was NOT to try and force others to adhere to my views. However, I entered the conversation with the motive to show that there is another perspective on this issue. I don't agree with every tenant of the "non-resistant" perspective...and I don't believe that a believer should come on here and dismiss those who don't embrace his views as part of a "false Christianity" that embraces "damnable heresy."

While you might accuse me of not understanding "what or who you were posting about" (without even asking me whether I understood it for stating as much), I still believe that my comments are still relevant in regard to this issue. Richard Wurmbrand might very well be a good read right now -- and how he implored the US government and believers in free nations to publicly stand up against the persecution of the Church. The man once was even arrested for ripping a megaphone out of the hands of an anti-war hippie protesting American involvement in Vietnam. Even today, Voice of the Martyrs invites believers to petition secular governments to act in righteousness and justice. I've received the newsletter for years. Their newsletter has often contained postcards that were to be mailed to secular governments on behalf of imprisoned and/or tortured believers.

We should certainly be prepared for persecution. Yet, the underlying motivation for my involvement in this thread is not to disagree with such a notion. Rather, I just think that believers should use caution before dismissing the faith of those with whom they disagree in regard to absolution within the presentation of "Christian non-resistance." There are other views and perspectives of this issue that are just as deserving of consideration. There are many of us who are NOT violent, but we still see no prohibition from Scriptures for service in the military, police department or in the defense of the weak or our families.

I hope that this clarifies the apparent misunderstanding just a little better.

C
chapel

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:

I don't agree with every tenant of the "non-resistant" perspective...and I don't believe that a believer should come on here and dismiss those who don't embrace his views as part of a "false Christianity" that embraces "damnable heresy."

As far as I can see from your multiple post is that you do not agree with any of the tenants of nonresistance. In fact Ccchhhrrriiisss there is a prevailing theme in everyone of your post and it simply has to do with your rights, it is all about you, though you make pretense of actually caring about others, the underlying theme is Ccchhhrrriiisss and his freedom.

Let me ask you a few questions Ccchhhrrriiisss; Have you ever served in the military? Do you have any idea what the average soldiers life is like? Have you ever been commanded to kill someone? Have you ever taken someone’s life? Have you ever entered a village after a strike has been called in upon it and seen the destruction that is left behind? The body parts of old men, women and children strewn about, slaughtered because they were in the way. You know why Ccchhhrrriiisss? For our precious freedom, yes and so we can control the natural resources of the world and keep our exorbitant life styles at the expense of the poor of this world.

You know what the "damnable heresy" is Ccchhhrrriiisss? It is defending this travesty of the wholesale slaughter of humans all because we think we deserve to live the way we do. It is not speaking out against it and allowing this suffering to go on. Instead you defend it.

May the Lord have mercy on their poor souls
lee

S
sermonindex


chapel wrote:
You know what the "damnable heresy" is Ccchhhrrriiisss? It is defending this travesty of the wholesale slaughter of humans all because we think we deserve to live the way we do. It is not speaking out against it and allowing this suffering to go on. Instead you defend it.

May the Lord have mercy on their poor souls
lee

All your 'speaking' worked really well on the Rwandan genocide.

"Unlike French and U.N. troops, there were no U.S. troops officially in Rwanda at the onset of the genocide. [b]Nevertheless, the U.S. government and military made a number of decisions, some of commission and most of omission, that had the effect of facilitating and extending the genocide.[/b] A National Security Archive report points out five ways in which decisions made by the U.S. government contributed to the slow U.S. and worldwide response and to the continuation of the genocide:

1) Contrary to later public statements, the U.S. lobbied the U.N. for a total withdrawal of U.N. (UNAMIR) forces in Rwanda in April 1994;
2)Secretary of State Warren Christopher did not authorize officials to use the term "genocide" until May 21, and even then, U.S. officials waited another three weeks before using the term in public;
3)Bureaucratic infighting slowed the U.S. response to the genocide in general;
4)The U.S. refused to jam extremist radio broadcasts inciting the killing, citing costs and concern with international law;
5)[b]U.S. officials knew exactly who was leading the genocide, and actually spoke with those leaders to urge an end to the violence but did not follow up with concrete action.[/b][51]"

In this case the travesty belongs to those who refused to act in defense of those getting
killed.... own the travesty.

If history charges the blood of those who died in this genocide on the hands of those who refused to act on their behalf, what do you think God will do?

If you desire peace in this world full of war, sooner or later it requires action. That action involves an opposing military force.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi chapel...

As far as I can see from your multiple post is that you do not agree with any of the tenants of nonresistance. In fact Ccchhhrrriiisss there is a prevailing theme in everyone of your post and it simply has to do with your rights, it is all about you, though you make pretense of actually caring about others, the underlying theme is Ccchhhrrriiisss and his freedom.

...then you haven't really read all that I wrote within my posts. I have stated several times within this thread that I believe in PERSONAL non-resistance. In other words, I embrace the concept of "turning the other cheek" when such persecution is applied to me on a personal level for my faith. I have applied this in my life several times. So, yes, I do embrace at "non-resistance" to this extent. However, it is a stretch to say that the extent of my views is somehow egocentric in regard to secular "freedom." There is a difference between sitting aside and letting the world harm you...and sitting back and letting the world unjustly harm the weak or someone's family.

If I haven't made this clear enough to you, brother Chapel, I am saying that I cannot simply adhere to your form of "Christian non-resistance" because YOU say that I should. I have prayed about this issue, studied it diligently, and I can't see anything that you present that would cause me to believe that there is an absolute prohibition on service as a military serviceman, policeman or in defense of the weak or my own family. Thus, it isn't just about "freedom" as it pertains to this issue, but as it also extends to personal responsibility.


Let me ask you a few questions Ccchhhrrriiisss; Have you ever served in the military? Do you have any idea what the average soldiers life is like? Have you ever been commanded to kill someone? Have you ever taken someone’s life? Have you ever entered a village after a strike has been called in upon it and seen the destruction that is left behind? The body parts of old men, women and children strewn about, slaughtered because they were in the way. You know why Ccchhhrrriiisss? For our precious freedom, yes and so we can control the natural resources of the world and keep our exorbitant life styles at the expense of the poor of this world.

Again, Chapel, this is something that I mentioned in several of my posts. No, I have NOT served in the military forces of this nation. However, I have prayed about it. In addition, my dad served in the military (in both the Marines and Navy). He was DRAFTED into the Marines during Vietnam while he was just 17 yrs old. He served his tour (without every firing a shot in combat) as an engineering assistant. However, he wasn't compelled to serve in the Navy. He did this on his own. He was intelligent and highly educated and could have easily chosen a career in a different field. Yet he chose to do so and make a career of it (serving 25 years in the Navy + 2 years in the Marines). Thus, I understand the life of a military family.

I do take issue with your suggestion about what the "average soldier's life" is like. I'm not sure if [i]you[/i] have ever served in the military, but the average US soldier is not commanded to kill innocent people. In fact, I have known many Marines, Army vets and Navy Seals who have NEVER killed a person (let alone an civilian). It is one thing for a nation to have a national defense in order to preserve the rights and well being of its citizens due to the charge in the Constitution and for the dispersion of justice. Even if you don't physically fight, this is what your taxes are spent upon (Romans 13:4-7). I also think that it is somewhat facetious to privily allege that the US military is used to "[i]control the natural resources of the world and keep our exorbitant life styles at the expense of the poor of this world[/i]." I find it ironic that you believe such a thing enough to be critical about it in the Christian forum, yet you limit your cause to an extremely malignant public allegation.


You know what the "damnable heresy" is Ccchhhrrriiisss? It is defending this travesty of the wholesale slaughter of humans all because we think we deserve to live the way we do. It is not speaking out against it and allowing this suffering to go on. Instead you defend it.

Now, that is just plain silly. You are making a specific allegation (that I am "[i]defending this travesty of the wholesale slaughter of humans all because I think that I deserve to live the say I do[/i]") quite erroneously. Then, you say that it is a "damnable heresy." If it hasn't been clear enough: I have been saying repeatedly that I cannot simply adhere to such a form of "Christian non-resistance" because YOU say that I should. I have prayed about this issue, studied it diligently, and even considered your argument (and the arguments of others like you). And yet, I can't see anything from Scripture that you present that would cause me to believe that there is an absolute prohibition on service as a military serviceman, policeman or in defense of the weak or my own family.

A pretentious individual would dismiss such believers with this view as wearing "spiritual blinders" -- or worse, the state of being a "damnable heretic." Personally, I am walking before God with a clear conscience. If you are walking before God with a clear conscience, then more power to you. However, you are bordering on your own little ecclesiastic "theocracy" by trying to dictate such a precept to the consciences of fellow believers who still don't agree with you on some of these issues and with a willingness to pass off anyone else as part of a adherers of "false Christianity" who embrace "damnable heresy." Brother, do you really think that I am damned?

May the Lord have mercy on their poor souls

Thanks! I suspect that ALL of us can welcome and embrace as much of the wonderful and unmerited mercy from the Lord as He chooses to provide.

L
Leo_Grace

To properly evaluate the validity of this popular doctrine of non-resistance, one must take an objective look at Jesus' Sermon on the Mount and how the concepts of "turn the other cheek", "do not resist an evil person", and "anger is murder" are treated elsewhere in the new testament. The theme of the Sermon on the Mount is closely aligned with the new covenant in Christ being a covenant of the Spirit, not of the letter.

I am posting my view as revealed to me by the Spirit. It is long, but I hope some will spare the time to read it. My post is not intended to correct others (for that is the realm of the Holy Spirit), but merely to reveal what I understand. In quoting verses, I have taken the liberty of underlining the portions that were especially meaningful for me, and I have marked Christ's words in red.


[b]The new covenant is a covenant of the Spirit, not of the Letter.[/b]

In both the old and new testaments, God speaks of his new covenant as one where His Law will no longer be external to man, but internal - God will write His Law in our minds and on our hearts through the Holy Spirit.

[size=xx-small]Verses:
Jer 31:31-34 “The time is coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, ’” declares the LORD. “[u]This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts[/u]. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD.

2Co 3:5-6 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. [u]He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant —not of the letter but of the Spirit[/u]; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.[/size]


[b]Jesus and his disciples (including Paul) were all led by the Spirit of God.[/b]

[size=xx-small]Verses:
Ac 10:37-38 You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— how [u]God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power[/u], and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

Ac 2:1-4 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. [u]All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them[/u].

Ac 9:17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “[u]Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit[/u].”[/size]


[b]The new covenant frees us from the letter of the Law but binds us to the Spirit of God.[/b]

We are no longer limited by anything except the will of God as revealed by the Spirit in us. And God's will is for us to act in love at all times - love for God, and love for others. If we can do this, then the whole of God's will (law and prophets) is fulfilled.

[size=xx-small]Verses:
Gal 5:18-23 [u]But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law[/u]. The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. [u]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law[/u].

1Co 10:23-24 “Everything is permissible”—but not everything is beneficial. “[u]Everything is permissible”—but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others[/u].

Mt 22:36-40 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘[color=CC3300][u]Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind[/u].’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘[u]Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments[/u].[/color]”[/size]


[b]In his Sermon on the Mount, Jesus teaches that the new covenant calls us to be active and visible participants in the world.[/b]

Salt is not useful unless it is spread and mixed well with food. Light, to be useful, must be set so it is visible to many and not hidden. We cannot fulfill the will of God as salt and light if we withdraw and refuse to participate in the affairs of the world.

[size=xx-small]Verses:
Mt 5:13-16 [color=CC3300]“[u]You are the salt of the earth[/u]. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men. You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. [u]In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven[/u]."[/color][/size]


[b]In his Sermon on the Mount, Jesus teaches his disciples to be more righteous than the Pharisees by obeying the Spirit of the Law, not the letter of the Law, in keeping with the new covenant.[/b]

Jesus begins by telling his disciples that the new covenant does not seek to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. He then says that God wants them to far exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees - this they will accomplish through the Spirit under the new covenant.

[size=xx-small]Verses:[/size]
[i]The Fulfillment of the Law[/i]
[size=xx-small]Mt 5:17-20 [color=CC3300]“[u]Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them[/u]. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [u]For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven[/u]."[/color][/size]

In the succeeding passages, Jesus emphasizes his requirement that the disciples' righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees by citing some key aspects of the old Mosaic Law, and then exaggerating the new requirement under the new covenant to illustrate how much more pleasing to God is the covenant of the Spirit, and how much more the disciples can achieve through the power of the Spirit (this exaggeration for emphasis is called hyperbole). These passages were not meant to be taken literally (as some think). Notice that all these passages compare old standards with highly exaggerated new standards through hyperbole (e.g., "If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out..."). They are all uniformly structured as follows: "You have heard it said..., but I tell you..." to underline the one common message: You can be much more righteous than the Pharisees by obeying the Spirit of God.

[size=xx-small]Verses:[/size]
[i]Murder[/i]
[size=xx-small]Mt 5:21-26 [color=CC3300]“[u]You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment[/u]. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."[/color][/size]

[i]Adultery[/i]
[size=xx-small]Mt 5:27-30 [color=CC3300]“[u]You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away[/u]. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."[/color][/size]

[i]Divorce[/i]
[size=xx-small]Mt 5:31-32 [color=CC3300]“[u]It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress[/u], and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery."[/color][/size]

[i]Oaths[/i]
[size=xx-small]Mt 5:33-37 [color=CC3300]“[u]Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.’ But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King[/u]. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one."[/color][/size]

[i]An Eye for an Eye[/i]
[size=xx-small]Mt 5:38-42 [color=CC3300]“[u]You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also[/u]. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."[/color][/size]

[i]Love for Enemies[/i]
[size=xx-small]Mt 5:43-48 [color=CC3300]“[u]You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven[/u]. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."[/color][/size]

[b]All of the above passages underline the new covenant's superior righteousness in the command to "Love your neighbor as yourself". What is being taught here is the correct attitude of the heart (a self-sacrificing love for others) and not an actual rule to be taken as "the letter of the new covenant law". Unless other parts of the Bible consistently echo these teachings, they must be treated as mere hyperbole, not to be taken literally.

How can I make this conclusion? Because other parts of the new testament show that Jesus and his disciples did not consider these "non-resistance" passages as rules to be followed dogmatically:[/b]

[b]1. They did not always turn the other cheek - they rebuked those who hit them.[/b]

[size=xx-small]Verses:
Jn 18:22-23 When Jesus said this, one of the officials nearby struck him in the face. Is this the way you answer the high priest?” he demanded. [color=CC3300][u]“If I said something wrong,”[/color] Jesus replied, [color=CC3300]“testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?”[/u][/color]

Ac 23:1-3 Paul looked straight at the Sanhedrin and said, “My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day.” At this the high priest [u]Ananias ordered those standing near Paul to strike him on the mouth. Then Paul said to him, “God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! You sit there to judge me according to the law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck[/u]!”[/size]

[b]2. They resisted evil men.[/b]

[size=xx-small]Verses:
Ac 13:9-11 [u]Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, “You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun[/u].” Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand.

1Co 5:13 God will judge those outside. “[u]Expel the wicked man[/u] from among you.”

Mt 18:15-17 [color=CC3300]“[u]If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault[/u], just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and [u]if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector[/u].[/color][/size]

[b]3. They taught about righteous anger, and even Jesus was angry at men yet was without sin.[/b]

[size=xx-small]Verses:
Mk 3:4-5 Then Jesus asked them, [color=CC3300]“Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?”[/color] But they remained silent. [u]He looked around at them in anger[/u] and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, [color=CC3300]“Stretch out your hand.”[/color] He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored.

Eph 4:26-27 “[u]In your anger do not sin[/u]”. Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold.[/size]

[b]So, in conclusion, I believe that Christians must actively participate in all aspects of society to bring glory to God and to reach out to fellow men. I also believe that, under the new covenant, there is no such thing as a doctrine of non-resistance - instead, we are called to always act out of love for God and for others to fulfill God's will.[/b]

In Christ,
Leo

C
chapel

The Church That Would Not Suffer!

By Greg Gordon

A message showing forth true apostolic power with God

APOSTOLIC POWER

Oh! for a call back to apostolic preaching, apostolic power, apostolic praying. We cry out ‘I want apostolic power’ but do we really? Do we want to suffer as they did? Do we want to crown our offering with a tortured bloody martyrdom as they did? Pentecost has a cost. If we are going to have apostolic success we are going to have to have apostolic suffering. Leonard Ravenhill said: "We talk Apostolic doctrine but lack Apostolic deeds. We claim Apostolic faith but lack Apostolic fruit. Some trumpet Apostolic power but lack Apostolic poverty. Some claim Apostolic enduement but lack Apostolic accomplishment. We may have Apostolic vocabularies. Do we have Apostolic victories? Many claim Apostolic succession. Few, if any, dare claim Apostolic success!" Let us look at the life's of the apostles and see their summation, see how well they ran and also finished the race that was set before them. Will it shock you to know that every apostle died a violent marytrs death. Should we not except to follow the same path our master trod? shall we not tread it still? Let us read their stories: The apostle Andrew according to traditional accounts, was crucified by order of the Roman Governor, Aegeas at Patrae in Achaia, Greece on a X-shaped cross. The apostle Bartholomew according to traditional accounts, was flayed alive and crucified, head downward, at Albanopolis, Armenia as punishment for having converted the King of Armenia to the Christian faith. The apostle James was the first apostle to be martyred when he was put to death in Jerusalem by the sword at the command of Herod. The apostle James son of alphaeus was martyred at Jerusalem by being thrown from a pinnacle of the Temple, then stoned and beaten with clubs and fuller’s mallets, while praying for his attackers. The apostle John was burned with alive with oil and survived and became the only apostle to die of natural causes. The apostle Judas was beaten to death with a club, then beheaded, in Persia. The apostle Matthias according to traditional accounts, he was stoned to death at Colchis. The apostle Paul was a Roman citizen being exempt from crucifixion, so he was beheaded with a sword in Rome. The apostle Peter was crucified upside down because he claimed he was not worthy to die in the same manner as Christ in Rome. The apostle Philip according to traditional accounts, he was martyred at Hierapolis, Phrygia. The apostle Simon was martyred, but the location is uncertain; some claim that he was crucified in Samaria. The apostle Thomas was pierced through with spears by four soldiers in India. The apostle Barnabus preaching the Gospel was martyred at Salamis. Are you willing to add your name to the list of these true apostles for Christ? Perhaps turn your Bible to Hebrews 11 and read where it says: “others tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection. They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain by the sword.” ?

SPINELESS CHRISTIANITY

The apostles were living martyr’s for Christ dying daily. If we could share in their sufferings but for one day I am sure many of us would forfeit apostolic power. Leonard Ravenhill: “There is a 'deeper life.' It is as deep as a personal Gethsemane and as costly as a personal Calvary." In our beggared condition in the modern day church we cannot handle the consequences of apostolic power. We need first to have our weak skinned, self-seeking, spineless Christianity purged from us. May God be gracious enough to do this. Then perhaps we will have power with God and once again become the “church militant” on earth. "Apostolic preaching is not marked by its beautiful diction, or literary polish, or Cleverness of expression, but Operates "in demonstration of the Spirit and of power." stated Arthur Wallis who longed many years for a true move of God. We need men of renown, those who are willing to count the cost and be amongst the few that do great exploits for God. Hear the heart cry from Samuel M. Zwemer to see these sort of men arise in our day: "A man set on fire is an apostle of his age. And the only one who can kindle the spark of light and fire on the hearth where it has died down is He who has revealed Himself as the God of fire, our Lord Jesus Christ. 'Our God is a consuming fire'...Tell me, is your ministry a burning and shining light, or a smoking wick, slowly dying out to ashes? ...It is a strange custom that we should supply a minister with a glass of water; if only we could supply him with a bonfire in the pulpit, a spiritual bonfire. We need the dynamic of a flaming ministry that will set the Church on fire."?

ANCIENT AND MODERN

To any careful observer of the church in our day we realize there is a great disparity between the modern day example and the apostolic original. Here is anonymous article written in the 1700’s depicting some of these disparities very vividly. Oh for a reviving of the true apostolic spirit in the Church is the crying need of our day, or perhaps the only answer for the Church in this day:

“Ancient and modern preachers. The difference between ancient and modern preachers taken from the Scriptures. If any think me to severe to the Clergy, let them study the examples of Christ and his apostles, and compare the picture.

Ancient: CHRIST call'd his preachers to renounce their wealth, And set a glorious pattern in himself, Who, tho' he did possess all things in store, Yet for our sakes, became exceeding poor.

Modern: Some preachers now, large salaries do fix, So that, by preaching, they may now grow rich, So far departing from their blessed Lord, They worship mammon and a golden god.

Ancient: CHRIST told them, to be wise, they must be fools, And that not all the knowledge of the schools, Could ever teach one soul the way to heaven, That this is only by his spirit given.

Modern: But now, some go unto the schools of men, Expecting heavenly wisdom to obtain, And that, by reading books, they may acquire The holy spirit, the baptismal fire.

Ancient: CHRIST charg'd his followers, titles to contemn And, often faithfully, admonish'd them Not to be called RABBI, learned, wise, But all ambitious selfishness despise.

Modern: Now, some are call'd Archbishops and Prelates, Reverend Doctors, learn'd, wise, and great, The reverend parson, and master of arts, Old pharisaick pride, in all its parts.

Ancient: CHRIST told his followers, to be meek and mild, As low and humble as a little child, That they must not aspire to lofty seats, But must come down and wash each others feet.

Modern: Now some, in garments long, do love to stand, With college flourishes, they wave their hands, Read their writings, and then call it preaching, Old orthodox apostolick teaching. Now money, schools and books supply the place, Of humble love, and sanctifiing grace, When money fails, these teachers often flee, The reason is, because, they hirelings be. When any now, are call'd of GOD, to teach, And by his spirit, are sent forth to preach, These learn'd scholars soon, will them degrade, Lest their cheap preaching should spoil their trade.

Ancient: CHRIST told his followers that they must expect, The world would hate them treat them with neglect, That as they hated him without a cause, So they would hate his followers and his laws. Fools in the eastern of the world.

Modern: No, say some modern preachers, 'tis not true, The world will love us and respect too, We are commanded for to live in peace, We will not then disturb their carnal ease.

Ancient: CHRIST told them, a distinction they must make, That they, the sheep and goats, must separate, That, as the sheep were separate from wolves. They must not be by worldly maxims rul'd.

Modern: No, say some teachers, this is a mistake; Therfore, we now will join the church and state. Tho' this is very far from GOD'S design, This jargon union, they attempt to join.

Ancient: CHRIST oft declares, the help of man is vain, And, that except a man be born again, And that except we all converted be, GOD'S kingdom we can never, never see.

Modern: Some hold, that there is yet some power in man, And that by creeds, and modes, and forms he can, Profess, confess, and plead, and, by degrees, The holy, angry, jealous GOD, appease.

Ancient: CHRIST says he is the way, the truth, the life, That, our of him, we have no strength or light. We have no faith, no hope, no might, at all. He is our joy, our hope, our all in all.

Modern: Why then, among the herdsmen, is such strife, When all of them can't bring a flea to life. Striving, both night and day, to proselyte, And yet cannot make one hair black or white!

Ancient: CHRIST'S followers, of old, were of one heart, Did, with their worldly int'rest, freely part; Neither did any say, ought was his own; It all in common stock was freely thrown.

Modern: Some christians now, so selfish they are grown, It is with trouble, we can get our own, And sometimes are obliged to complain, Unto the laws, our rights for to obtain.

Ancient: Christians all took their names from CHRIST, their head, All party names, from them, entirely fled, No Parthians or Medes with them were known, No other names, but christians, they would own.

Modern: Christians are so divided, in our days, The want of true religion it betrays, Presbyterian, Churchmen, Baptist, Quaker, Methodist, Universalist, and Shaker. It makes me almost sick, To see the names Iv'e writ, My pen I now will quit, And will not waste My paper.”

Greg Gordon
*******************************************

G
ginnyrose

Leo,

As a person who upholds the Biblical view of 'non-resistance' please allow me to explain something here.

The term 'non-resistance' is clearly a misnomer. Where it came from I have no idea. God's children always resisted evil but they did not resort to the use of carnal weapons. This is what is meant by the term non-resistance.

I could think this term has its origins in the reformation era when the Anabaptist were being hounded to death by the Catholics and later the reformers. The Anabaptists, except for the incident at Munster, did not fight back, but fled or surrendered. They were known for their love.

I hope this will make sense...

ginnyrose

PS: EDIT: The term 'Anabaptists' has also become a misnomer. It literally means one who who has been re-baptized. So if you were baptized as an infant and then later you experienced a Believers' baptism, you were now re-baptized. Some terms, names have a way of hanging around after their usefulness has expired, but they are used to assist one in the communication of ideas.

C
chapel

NON-RESISTANCE

‘Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39. But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.’—MATT. v. 38-42.

The old law directed judges to inflict penalties precisely equivalent to offences—‘an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth’ (Exod. xxi. 24), but that direction was not for the guidance of individuals. It was suited for the stage of civilisation in which it was given, and probably was then a restriction, rather than a sanction, of the wild law of retaliation. Jesus sweeps it away entirely, and goes much further than even its abrogation. For He forbids not only retaliation but even resistance.
It is unfortunate that in this, as in so many instances, controversy as to the range of Christ’s words has so largely hustled obedience to them out of the field, that the first thought suggested to a modern reader by the command ‘Resist not evil’ (or, an evil man) is apt to be, Is the Quaker doctrine of uniform non-resistance right or wrong, instead of, Do I obey this precept? If we first try to understand its meaning, we shall be in a position to consider whether it has limits, springing from its own deepest significance, or not. What, then, is it not to resist? Our Lord gives three concrete illustrations of what He enjoins, the first of which refers to insults such as contumelious blows on the cheek, which are perhaps the hardest not to meet with a flash of anger and a returning stroke; the second of which refers to assaults on property, such as an attempt at legal robbery of a man’s undergarment; the third of which refers to forced labour, such as impressing a peasant to carry military or official baggage or documents—a form of oppression only too well known under Roman rule in Christ’s days. In regard to all three cases, He bids His disciples submit to the indignity, yield the coat, and go the mile. But such yielding without resistance is not to be all. The other cheek is to be given to the smiter; the more costly and ample outer garment is to be yielded up; the load is to be carried for two miles. The disciple is to meet evil with a manifestation, not of anger, hatred, or intent to inflict retribution, but of readiness to submit to more. It is a hard lesson, but clearly here, as always, the chief stress is to be laid, not on the outward action, but on the disposition, and on the action mainly as the outcome and exhibition of that. If the cheek is turned, or the cloak yielded, or the second mile trudged with a lowering brow, and hate or anger boiling in the heart, the commandment is broken. If the inner man rises in hot indignation against the evil and its doer, he is resisting evil more harmfully to himself than is many a man who makes his adversary’s cheeks tingle before his own have ceased to be reddened. We have to get down into the depths of the soul, before we understand the meaning of non-resistance.

It would have been better if the eager controversy about the breadth of this commandment had oftener become a study of its depth, and if, instead of asking, ‘Are we ever warranted in resisting?’ men had asked, ‘What in its full meaning is non-resistance?’ The truest answer is that it is a form of Love,—love in the face of insults, wrongs, and domineering tyranny, such as are illustrated in Christ’s examples. This article of Christ’s New Law comes last but one in the series of instances in which His transfiguring touch is laid on the Old Law, and the last of the series is that to which He has been steadily advancing from the first—namely, the great Commandment of Love. This precept stands immediately before that, and prepares for it. It is, as suffused with the light of the sun that is all but risen, ‘Resist not evil,’ for ‘Love beareth all things.’

It is but a shallow stream that is worried into foam and made angry and noisy by the stones in its bed; a deep river flows smooth and silent above them. Nothing will enable us to meet ‘evil’ with a patient yielding love which does not bring the faintest tinge of anger even into the cheek reddened by a rude hand, but the ‘love of God shed abroad in the heart,’ and when that love fills a man, ‘out of him will flow a river of living water,’ which will bury evil below its clear, gentle abundance, and, perchance, wash it of its foulness. The ‘quality of’ this non-resistance ‘is twice blessed,’ ‘it blesseth him that gives and him that takes.’ For the disciple who submits in love, there is the gain of freedom from the perturbations of passion, and of steadfast abiding in the peace of a great charity, the deliverance from the temptation of descending to the level of the wrong-doer, and of losing hold of God and all high visions. The tempest-ruffled sea mirrors no stars by night, nor is blued by day. If we are to have real communion with God, we must not flush with indignation at evil, nor pant with desire to shoot the arrow back to him that aimed it at us. And in regard to the evil-doer, the most effectual resistance is, in many cases, not to resist.
There is something hid away somewhere in most men’s hearts which makes them ashamed of smiting the offered left cheek, and then ashamed of having smitten the right one. ‘It is a shame to hit him, since he does not defend himself,’ comes into many a ruffian’s mind. The safest way to travel in savage countries is to show oneself quite unarmed. He that meets evil with evil is ‘overcome of evil’; he that meets it with patient love is likely in most cases to ‘overcome evil with good.’ And even if he fails, he has, at all events, used the only weapon that has any chance of beating down the evil, and it is better to be defeated when fighting hate with love than to be victorious when fighting it with itself, or demanding an eye for an eye.

But, if we take the right view of this precept, its limitations are in itself. Since it is love confronting, and seeking to transform evil into its own likeness, it may sometimes be obliged by its own self not to yield. If turning the other cheek would but make the assaulter more angry, or if yielding the cloak would but make the legal robber more greedy, or if going the second mile would but make the press-gang more severe and exacting, resistance becomes a form of love and a duty for the sake of the wrong-doer. It may also become a duty for the sake of others, who are also objects of love, such as helpless persons who otherwise would be exposed to evil, or society as a whole. But while clearly that limit is prescribed by the very nature of the precept, the resistance which it permits must have love to the culprit or to others as its motive, and not be tainted by the least suspicion of passion or vengeance.

Would that professing Christians would try more to purge their own hearts, and bring this solemn precept into their daily lives, instead of discussing whether there are cases in which it does not apply!

There are great tracts in the lives of all of us to which it should apply and is not applied; and we had better seek to bring these under its dominion first, and then it will be time enough to debate as to whether any circumstances are outside its dominion or not.

Alexander Maclaren

M
MaryJane

Greetings
I very much liked this article written by Greg Gordon. It really speaks volumes about the attitudes of many today. I hope it is alright I am going to be printing this out and sharing it with a group of young men here. Thank you for sharing this here with us again.

God Bless
maryjane

G
ginnyrose

This article hits us right where we are, right where the rubber meets the road. And that gets hard - at times. But it helps much that when we see our inner being rise up in retaliation that we can call on the LORD for strength to resist the urge to retaliate and then be open to know how the Holy Spirit would have us respond.

I will have to copy/paste this article for future reference..

ginnyrose

L
Leo_Grace

Dear chapel,

Thank you for posting this message on "non-resistance" by Alexander Maclaren. One paragraph in particular is worth repeating for the benefit of those who are following this thread:

But, if we take the right view of this precept, its limitations are in itself. Since it is love confronting, and seeking to transform evil into its own likeness, it may sometimes be obliged by its own self not to yield. If turning the other cheek would but make the assaulter more angry, or if yielding the cloak would but make the legal robber more greedy, or if going the second mile would but make the press-gang more severe and exacting, resistance becomes a form of love and a duty for the sake of the wrong-doer. It may also become a duty for the sake of others, who are also objects of love, such as helpless persons who otherwise would be exposed to evil, or society as a whole. But while clearly that limit is prescribed by the very nature of the precept, the resistance which it permits must have love to the culprit or to others as its motive, and not be tainted by the least suspicion of passion or vengeance.

I agree wholeheartedly with his view of Scripture, and the surest way of knowing how to react is to be ever sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit, as love for God and love for others fills your heart.

M
MaryJane

Greetings chapel
another really good article. Thank you for posting it as well. I hope you will not mind if I print this one out to share as well?

God Bless
maryjane

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Ginnyrose,

I appreciate the clarification within your post, but I just wanted to make a quick comment.

As a person who upholds the Biblical view of 'non-resistance…'

I think that this has been the strongest underlying principle for my involvement in this thread. There are those of us who do not embrace some of the particular teachings as taught by some of the “non-resistance” brethren, but we are still just as confident in the Lord that we are upholding “the Biblical view of ‘non-resistance’” with a clear conscience before God.

Of course, I am confident that you didn’t mean anything from this, sister. However, there have been specific statements made within this thread that have seemingly dismissed the faith of those who don’t adhere to some of those specific teachings as instructed by some of the “non-resistant” brethren. There have been words that were made that stated that those with a different opinion about the extent of what the Scriptures instruct are a part of “false Christianity” who embrace “damnable heresy.”

There are varying degrees of teachings in regard to “non-resistant” and “non-involvement” principles that are largely based upon the same Scriptural motivation as those who do not embrace those same principles. There are those who have no problem with government involvement, patriotism and physical resistance and there are those who believe in absolute non-involvement or any sort of resistance whatsoever. Personally, I find that most believers are somewhere in between. Yet I think that it is dangerous to dismiss the faith or views of those who prayerfully arrive to a different perspective simply because they have arrived to a different perspective than one’s own. Of course, they too feel that they hold to a Biblical view on the matter.

And just to clarify a bit: Those who do not embrace all of the tenants as presented by “non-resistant” brethren are NOT violent individuals. I have never met a believer who wants to react violently. I have never seen a believer who reacts out of a selfish urge to retaliate. Rather, they see it as a duty (and even a spiritual duty) on behalf of the weak. Again, I don’t know any Christian who even remotely believes that a nation or government (or even self preservation) comes before God or family. Moreover, I don’t know any believer who wouldn’t be willing to suffer for the cause of Christ or to die as a martyr for the faith in our Lord.

The simple difference is that many of us have prayerfully considered the issue, studied the Scriptures, and even considered the views of various “non-resistant” teachings, but still find no absolute prohibition in Scripture to validate the argument of the non-resistant brethren. Still, I would caution any of our brothers and sisters from issuing such a declaration that rejects the faith of those with whom we disagree. We need to respect them in the knowledge that they are often just as sincere in their quest for truth regarding this matter as the rest of us.

L
Leo_Grace


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Ginnyrose,

I appreciate the clarification within your post, but I just wanted to make a quick comment.

As a person who upholds the Biblical view of 'non-resistance…'

I think that this has been the strongest underlying principle for my involvement in this thread. There are those of us who do not embrace some of the particular teachings as taught by some of the “non-resistance” brethren, but we are still just as confident in the Lord that we are upholding “the Biblical view of ‘non-resistance’” with a clear conscience before God.

Of course, I am confident that you didn’t mean anything from this, sister. However, there have been specific statements made within this thread that have seemingly dismissed the faith of those who don’t adhere to some of those specific teachings as instructed by some of the “non-resistant” brethren. There have been words that were made that stated that those with a different opinion about the extent of what the Scriptures instruct are a part of “false Christianity” who embrace “damnable heresy.”

There are varying degrees of teachings in regard to “non-resistant” and “non-involvement” principles that are largely based upon the same Scriptural motivation as those who do not embrace those same principles. There are those who have no problem with government involvement, patriotism and physical resistance and there are those who believe in absolute non-involvement or any sort of resistance whatsoever. Personally, I find that most believers are somewhere in between. Yet I think that it is dangerous to dismiss the faith or views of those who prayerfully arrive to a different perspective simply because they have arrived to a different perspective than one’s own. Of course, they too feel that they hold to a Biblical view on the matter.

And just to clarify a bit: Those who do not embrace all of the tenants as presented by “non-resistant” brethren are NOT violent individuals. I have never met a believer who wants to react violently. I have never seen a believer who reacts out of a selfish urge to retaliate. Rather, they see it as a duty (and even a spiritual duty) on behalf of the weak. Again, I don’t know any Christian who even remotely believes that a nation or government (or even self preservation) comes before God or family. Moreover, I don’t know any believer who wouldn’t be willing to suffer for the cause of Christ or to die as a martyr for the faith in our Lord.

The simple difference is that many of us have prayerfully considered the issue, studied the Scriptures, and even considered the views of various “non-resistant” teachings, but still find no absolute prohibition in Scripture to validate the argument of the non-resistant brethren. Still, I would caution any of our brothers and sisters from issuing such a declaration that rejects the faith of those with whom we disagree. We need to respect them in the knowledge that they are often just as sincere in their quest for truth regarding this matter as the rest of us.


Well said, Chris. I've lost count but this is probably the tenth time you've posted this message against condemning others who disagree in this thread. Let's hope that they will now listen.

M
MaryJane

Greetings Chris

I wanted to say, as someone who falls into the turn the other cheek group:-) I understand what you have shared. I think that we have come to a place in this thread where maybe we can just leave this now in the hands of the Lord. As you have mentioned you have studied and have a clear conscious in walking out what Father has shown you, and so have I(and others I believe) so now lets us walk together in Him and pray for each other that if there is anything in our hearts or attitudes that are not of Him we might see that and die to it:-)
God Bless you dear brother
maryjane

C
chapel

Thank you all for your contribution to this thread,

Would that professing Christians would try more to purge their own hearts, and bring this solemn precept into their daily lives, instead of discussing whether there are cases in which it does not apply!

There are great tracts in the lives of all of us to which it should apply and is not applied; and we had better seek to bring these under its dominion first, and then it will be time enough to debate as to whether any circumstances are outside its dominion or not.

Alexander Maclaren

My prayer to the Lord is that we will all hear, receive and become doers of our Lord’s precious word and example.

lee

R
rbanks


chapel wrote:
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:

I don't agree with every tenant of the "non-resistant" perspective...and I don't believe that a believer should come on here and dismiss those who don't embrace his views as part of a "false Christianity" that embraces "damnable heresy."

As far as I can see from your multiple post is that you do not agree with any of the tenants of nonresistance. In fact Ccchhhrrriiisss there is a prevailing theme in everyone of your post and it simply has to do with your rights, it is all about you, though you make pretense of actually caring about others, the underlying theme is Ccchhhrrriiisss and his freedom.



Chapel,

When I first read what you have written to Chris, judging him in the way that you did. I was stunned. I was really thinking why you would speak like that to him. When I saw how Chris responded to your post then it is clear to all that he really showed nonresistance to your personal attack on his character because he believes that the Lord is the real judge.

I don’t know you Chapel and you don’t know me but I was really wondering how you got the authority to judge Chris the way that you did. Where is the love that Christ talked about concerning your brother and not to judge your brother?

We will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ one day and how you feel about something will not matter as much as what you did about something. The truth of the matter is that you, Chris, nor anybody else on here can change the world we live in but we can submit to God’s transformation in our own life and not be so quick to judge others. Jesus said until he comes back and takes over we will have wars and rumors of wars. The authorities are set up and ordain of God even though there are unrighteousness in governments and some much worse than others. This will not be changed until there is a new heaven and a new earth. We will have people in law enforcement and people in the military until then.

In a more humorous light, if I was somehow caught in a foxhole with anyone on this thread I would sure want it to be Chris.

God bless you brother Chris I can see Christ in your writings as much as anyone else on here.

Grace to all!

C
chapel

Mr. rbanks,

You are absolutely right, we are living in a world that will be at war until Jesus comes, but nowhere did Jesus or his disciples tell us we were to be a part of it. I will not go into all the scriptures regarding this but I will say that we have every right to judge our brothers as long as we judge righteous judgment.
John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

That is, judge by the words of Christ, just as he is going to do.

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Anyone who claims that Jesus told us to follow our governments into war are teaching false doctrine no matter what your reasoning may be.

Since you find humor in being in a foxhole shows you have never been in one, I have and I find no humor in your comment.
Watch your buddies die as you lay in a foxhole critically wounded and thus unable to do anything to stop it and then find yourself one of a few who survived and I doubt if you will find any humor either.


If the two of you continue to teach that Christians should go to war you may possibly get your wish of you and ccchhhrrriiisss in a foxhole fighting for anti christ.

I can do something Mr. rbanks, I can continue to point to the word of our Lord and not stop even though you and others tell me not to expose false doctrine.

His peace to all

Here is the testimony of a military chaplain who saw the light of Jesus Christ and gives
His reasons for why he is repenting.


A Military Chaplain Repents

by Rev. Emmanuel Charles McCarthy

In August of 1945 Rev. George B. Zabelka, a Catholic chaplain with the U.S. Army Air Force, was stationed on Tinian Island in the South Pacific. He was assigned to serve the Catholics of the 509th Composite Group. The 509th Composite Group was the Atomic Bomb Group. He served as a priest for those who dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. After 22 years as a military chaplain he retired as a Lieutenant Colonel. What follows is an interview with him by Rev. Emmanuel Charles McCarthy. Rev. George B. Zabelka went to meet his God on April 11, 1992.

Fr. McCarthy: Father Zabelka, what is your relationship to the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in August, 1945?

Fr. Zabelka: During the summer of 1945, July, August and September, I was assigned as Catholic chaplain to the 509th Composite Group on Tinian Island. The 509th was the Atomic Bomb Group.

Q: What were your duties in relationship to these men?

Zabelka: The usual. I said Mass on Sunday and during the week. Heard confessions. Talked with the boys, etc. Nothing significantly different from what any other chaplain did during the war.

Q: Did you know that the 509th was preparing to drop an atomic bomb?

Zabelka: No. We knew that they were preparing to drop a bomb substantially different from and more powerful than even the “blockbusters” used over Europe, but we never called it an atomic bomb and never really knew what it was before August 6, 1945. Before that time we just referred to it as the “gimmick” bomb.

Q: So since you did not know that an atomic bomb was going to be dropped you had no reason to counsel the men in private or preach in public about the morality of such a bombing?

Zabelka: Well, that is true enough; I never did speak against it, nor could I have spoken against it since I, like practically everyone else on Tinian, was ignorant of what was being prepared. And I guess I will go to my God with that as my defense. But on Judgment Day I think I am going to need to seek more mercy than justice in this matter.

Q: Why? God certainly could not have expected you to act on ideas that had never entered your mind.

Zabelka: As a Catholic priest my task was to keep my people, wherever they were, close to the mind and heart of Christ. As a military chaplain I was to try to see that the boys conducted themselves according to the teachings of the Catholic Church and Christ on war. When I look back I am not sure I did either of these things very well.

Q: Why do you think that?

Zabelka: What I do not mean to say is that I feel myself to have been remiss in any duties that were expected of me as a chaplain. I saw that the Mass and the sacraments were available as best I could. I even went out and earned paratrooper wings in order to do my job better. Nor did I fail to teach and preach what the Church expected me to teach and preach – and I don’t mean by this that I just talked to the boys about their sexual lives. I and most chaplains were quite clear and outspoken on such matters as not killing and torturing prisoners. But there were other areas where things were not said quite so clearly.

Q: For example?

Zabelka: The destruction of civilians in war was always forbidden by the Church, and if a soldier came to me and asked if he could put a bullet through a child’s head, I would have told him absolutely not. That would be mortally sinful. But in 1945 Tinian Island was the largest airfield in the world. Three planes a minute would take off from it around the clock. Many of these planes went to Japan with the express purpose of killing not one child or one civilian but of slaughtering hundreds and thousands of children and civilians – and I said nothing.

Q: Why not? You certainly knew civilians were being destroyed by the thousands in these raids, didn’t you?

Zabelka: Oh, indeed I did know, and I knew with a clarity that few others could have had.

Q: What do you mean?

Zabelka: As a chaplain I often had to enter the world of the boys who were losing their minds because of something they did in war. I remember one young man who was engaged in the bombings of the cities of Japan. He was in the hospital on Tinian Island on the verge of a complete mental collapse.

He told me that he had been on a low-level bombing mission, flying right down one of the main streets of the city, when straight ahead of him appeared a little boy, in the middle of the street, looking up at the plane in a childlike wonder. The man knew that in a few seconds the child would be burned to death by napalm which had already been released.

Yes, I knew civilians were being destroyed, and knew it perhaps in a way others didn’t. Yet I never preached a single sermon against killing civilians to men who were doing it.

Q: Again, why not?

Zabelka: Because I was “brainwashed”! It never entered my mind to publicly protest the consequences of these massive air raids. I was told it was necessary; told openly by the military and told implicitly by my Church’s leadership. To the best of my knowledge no American cardinals or bishops were opposing these mass air raids. Silence in such matters, especially by a public body like the American bishops, is a stamp of approval.

The whole structure of the secular, religious, and military society told me clearly that it was all right to “let the Japs have it.” God was on the side of my country. The Japanese were the enemy, and I was absolutely certain of my country’s and Church’s teaching about enemies; no erudite theological text was necessary to tell me. The day-in-day-out operation of the state and the Church between 1940 and 1945 spoke more clearly about Christian attitudes towards enemies and war than St. Augustine or St. Thomas Aquinas ever could.

I was certain that this mass destruction was right, certain to the point that the question of its morality never seriously entered my mind. I was “brainwashed” not by force or torture but by my Church’s silence and wholehearted cooperation in thousands of little ways with the country’s war machine. Why, after I finished chaplaincy school at Harvard I had my military chalice officially blessed by the then Bishop Cushing of Boston. How much more clearly could the message be given? Indeed, I was “brainwashed”!

Q: So you feel that because you did not protest the morality of the bombing of other cities with their civilian populations, that somehow you are morally responsible for the dropping of the atomic bomb?

Zabelka: The facts are that seventy-five thousand people were burned to death in one evening of fire bombing over Tokyo. Hundreds of thousands were destroyed in Dresden, Hamburg, and Coventry by aerial bombing. The fact that forty-five thousand human beings were killed by one bomb over Nagasaki was new only to the extent that it was one bomb that did it.

To fail to speak to the utter moral corruption of the mass destruction of civilians was to fail as a Christian and a priest as I see it. Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened in and to a world and a Christian Church that had asked for it – that had prepared the moral consciousness of humanity to do and to justify the unthinkable. I am sure there are Church documents around someplace bemoaning civilian deaths in modern war, and I am sure those in power in the church will drag them out to show that it was giving moral leadership during World War II to its membership.

Well, I was there, and I’ll tell you that the operational moral atmosphere in the Church in relation to mass bombing of enemy civilians was totally indifferent, silent, and corrupt at best – at worst it was religiously supportive of these activities by blessing those who did them.

I say all this not to pass judgment on others, for I do not know their souls then or now. I say all this as one who was part of the so-called Christian leadership of the time. So you see, that is why I am not going to the day of judgment looking for justice in this matter. Mercy is my salvation.

Q: You said the atomic bombing of Nagasaki happened to a Church that “had asked for it.” What do you mean by that?

Zabelka: For the first three centuries, the three centuries closest to Christ, the Church was a pacifist Church. With Constantine the church accepted the pagan Roman ethic of a just war and slowly began to involve its membership in mass slaughter, first for the state and later for the faith.

Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants, whatever other differences they may have had on theological esoterica, all agreed that Jesus’ clear and unambiguous teaching on the rejection of violence and on love of enemies was not to be taken seriously. And so each of the major branches of Christianity by different theological methods modified our Lord’s teaching in these matters until all three were able to do what Jesus rejected, that is, take an eye for an eye, slaughter, maim, torture.

It seems a “sign” to me that seventeen hundred years of Christian terror and slaughter should arrive at August 9, 1945 when Catholics dropped the A-Bomb on top of the largest and first Catholic city in Japan. One would have thought that I, as a Catholic priest, would have spoken out against the atomic bombing of nuns. (Three orders of Catholic sisters were destroyed in Nagasaki that day.) One would have thought that I would have suggested that as a minimal standard of Catholic morality, Catholics shouldn’t bomb Catholic children. I didn’t.

I, like that Catholic pilot of the Nagasaki plane, was heir to a Christianity that had for seventeen hundred years engaged in revenge, murder, torture, the pursuit of power and prerogative and violence, all in the name of our Lord.

I walked through the ruins of Nagasaki right after the war and visited the place where once stood the Urakami Cathedral. I picked up a piece of a censer from the rubble. When I look at it today I pray God forgives us for how we have distorted Christ’s teaching and destroyed His world by the distortion of that teaching. I was the Catholic chaplain who was there when this grotesque process, which began with Constantine, reached its lowest point – so far.

Q: What do you mean by “so far”?

Zabelka: Briefly, what I mean is that I do not see that the moral climate in relation to war inside or outside the Church has dramatically changed much since 1945. The mainline Christian Churches still teach something that Christ never taught or even hinted at, namely the Just War Theory, a theory that to me has been completely discredited theologically, historically, and psychologically.

So as I see it, until the various churches within Christianity repent and begin to proclaim by word and deed what Jesus proclaimed in relation to violence and enemies, there is no hope for anything other than ever-escalating violence and destruction.

Until membership in the Church means that a Christian chooses not to engage in violence for any reason and instead chooses to love, pray for, help, and forgive all enemies; until membership in the Church means that Christians may not be members of any military, American, Polish, Russian, English, Irish, et al.; until membership in the Church means that the Christian cannot pay taxes for others to kill others; and until the Church says these things in a fashion which the simplest soul could understand – until that time humanity can only look forward to more dark nights of slaughter on a scale unknown in history. Unless the Church unswervingly and unambiguously teaches what Jesus teaches on this matter it will not be the divine leaven in the human dough that it was meant to be.

“The choice is between nonviolence or nonexistence,” as Martin Luther King, Jr. said, and he was not, and I am not, speaking figuratively. It is about time for the Church and its leadership in all denominations to get down on its knees and repent of this misrepresentation of Christ’s words.

Communion with Christ cannot be established on disobedience to His clearest teachings. Jesus authorized none of His followers to substitute violence for love; not me, not you, not Jimmy Carter, not the pope, not a Vatican council, nor even an ecumenical council.

Q: Father Zabelka, what kinds of immediate steps do you think the church should take in order to become the “divine leaven in the human dough”?

Zabelka: Step one should be that Christians the world over should be taught that Christ’s teaching to love their enemies is not optional. I’ve been in many parishes in my life, and I have found none where the congregation explicitly is called upon regularly to pray for its enemies. I think this is essential.

I offer you step two at the risk of being considered hopelessly out of touch with reality. I would like to suggest that there is an immediate need to call an ecumenical council for the specific purpose of clearly declaring that war is totally incompatible with Jesus’ teaching and that Christians cannot and will not engage in or pay for it from this point in history on. This would have the effect of putting all nations on this planet on notice that from now on they are going to have to conduct their mutual slaughter without Christian support – physical, financial, or spiritual.

I am sure there are other issues which Catholics or Orthodox or Protestants would like to confront in an ecumenical council instead of facing up to the hard teachings of Christ in relationship to violence and enemies. But it seems to me that issues like the meaning of the primacy of Peter are nowhere near as pressing or as destructive of Church credibility and God’s world as is the problem of continued Christian participation in and justification of violence and slaughter. I think the Church’s continued failure to speak clearly Jesus’ teachings is daily undermining its credibility and authority in all other areas.

Q: Do you think there is the slightest chance that the various branches of Christianity would come together in an ecumenical council for the purpose of declaring war and violence totally unacceptable activities for Christians under all circumstances?

Zabelka: Remember, I prefaced my suggestion of an ecumenical council by saying that I risked being considered hopelessly out of touch with reality. On the other hand, what is impossible for men and women is quite possible for God if people will only use their freedom to cooperate a little.

Who knows what could happen if the Pope, the Patriarch of Constantinople, and the President of the World Council of Churches called with one voice for such a council? One thing I am sure of is that our Lord would be very happy if His Church were again unequivocally teaching what He unequivocally taught on the subject of violence.

Q: Fr. Zabelka, why after 39 years did you now decide to return to Japan and join in a peace pilgrimage that will culminate for you in Hiroshima on August 6 and Nagasaki on August 9, 1984?

Zabelka: I am old now. Soon I will go to meet my God. When the invitation came to join this peace pilgrimage, I felt that God had offered me “a great grace,” as we used to say. So, I accepted.

Q: What do you mean, God has offered you “a great grace” by an invitation to join a peace walk?

Zabelka: I do not mean to quibble about words but I did not experience the invitation as a request to join a peace walk. The invitation entered into my soul as “pilgrimage” not “walk.” A pilgrimage is a journey one undertakes to holy places for holy reasons.

Q: But what holy places are you going to visit in Japan? My understanding was that you were going to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Zabelka: Calvary, the place where Christ suffered and died at the hands of the civil and religious politicians of His day, is the holiest shrine in Christianity. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are Calvaries. For here, Christ in the bodies of the “least” was again tortured and put to death hundreds of thousands of times over by exactly the same dark and deceitful spirit of organized lovelessness that roamed Jerusalem two thousand years ago.

Q: But Calvary is where Christ suffered. He did not suffer in Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

Zabelka: God, Christ, lives in every human being. Our Lord tells us that what is done to the “least” is in fact now done to Him (Mt 25). I believe that! That is the only kind of God that I could adore and love, a God who lives in human history and suffers with people. I could only fear a god that sat as a depersonalized king above the anguish of humanity. This is part of what the Incarnation is all about. Christ suffers and dies at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Therefore to condone or support war is to condone or support the call to “Crucify Him.” To kill in war is, in fact, to be a “Christ-killer.” I’m sorry I can say nothing else – if Calvary is a holy place, Hiroshima and Nagasaki are holy places.

Q: You said that a pilgrimage must not only be to a holy place but for holy reasons. What are your reasons?

Zabelka: Peace! Peace is the fruit of communion with God. It is obvious to me that I, as well as humanity in general, are not in full communion with God, that we need to be reconciled with God. Jesus tells us that the condition now for reconciliation with God is reconciliation of human beings with each other. The Christian is explicitly called to be an agent of reconciliation. The first step in the reconciliation process is repentance for one’s sins, for what one has done to separate people from each other and thereby separate humanity from God. The reason I am going to Hiroshima and Nagasaki is to repent and to ask the forgiveness of those living and dead whom I have damaged by my failure to love Christically.

Q: But you were not actually on the planes that dropped the atomic bombs on those cities, were you?

Zabelka: No, but that is irrelevant moral thinking in the 20th century. Modern war and oppression are carried out by a long chain of individuals, each doing his or her job meticulously while simultaneously refusing to look at the end results of his or her work. There is no state or corporate evil that is not the result of personal sinfulness. In August of 1945, I, as a Christian and as a priest, served not as an agent of reconciliation but as an instrument of retaliation, revenge and homicide. My explicit and tacit approval of what was being done on Tinian Island that summer was clearly visible for anyone to see. Beyond this, I was the last possible official spokesman for the Church before the fire of hell was let loose on Hiroshima on the Feast of the Transfiguration 1945 – and I said nothing. I was the officially designated Catholic priest who by silence did his priestly patriotic duty and chose nationalism over Catholicism, Caesar over Christ, as the “Bockscar,” manned by Christians in my care, took off to evaporate the oldest and largest Christian community in Japan – Nagasaki. No, the fact that I was not physically on the planes is morally irrelevant. I played an important and necessary role in this sacrilege – and I played it meticulously. I am as responsible as the soldier who stuck the spear in the side of Christ on Calvary. I come to Hiroshima and Nagasaki to repent and to ask forgiveness from the Japanese people, from my faith community at Nagasaki and from God.

Q: Isn’t it a bit of rhetorical exaggeration to say you were a priest that played a role in a sacrilege?

Zabelka: Not at all. I mean it literally. If someone walks into a church and destroys the altar and statues, etc., it is called a sacrilege. A sacrilege is the desecration of what is considered holy. But for the Christian, the ultimate place of the holy is the human person. We are the “temples of the Holy Spirit.” Therefore, every act of violence toward a human being is an act of desecration of the temple of God in this world. War for the Christian is always sacrilege. There is no such absurdity as a Christian ethic of justified sacrilege. I am a priest who played a role in a sacrilege and that must be said by me and others like me without equivocation or else the future is a nightmare.

Q: What do you mean that the future is a nightmare unless you and others like you acknowledge your role in the sacrilege of war?

Zabelka: Look, I am a Catholic priest. In August of 1945, I did not say to the boys on Tinian, “You cannot follow Christ and drop those bombs.” But this same failure on the part of priests, pastors and bishops over the past 1700 years is, I believe, what is significantly responsible for Hiroshima and Nagasaki and for the seemingly unceasing “Christian” blood-letting around the globe. It seems to me that Christians have been slaughtering each other, as well as non-Christians, for the past 1700 years, in large part because their priests, pastors and bishops have simply not told them that violence and homicide are incompatible with the teachings of Jesus. On the contrary, I would say that the average priest, pastor and bishop communicates that violence and homicide can be compatible with Jesus. After all, a machine gun is no more lethal than a broomstick without the will to kill and the fact is that we so-called Christian “leaders” by commission and omission, for 1700 years, have been guilty of supplying a significant piece of the motivational apparatus necessary to execute the mass slaughter of war. Let’s be honest, to justify an evil is to promote an evil. And let’s face it, we priests, pastors and bishops have been justifying the butchery of war in the name of Christ for a long time. I might also add here that where more is required priestly silence is sinful, because silence gives consent and consent motivates toward the evil.

Q: What do you think must be done to begin to address this situation, Father Zabelka?

Zabelka: Unless the legitimate successors to the apostles proclaim fearlessly what the apostles proclaimed fearlessly, that is, that Christ’s teachings are teachings of nonviolent love and mercy – and unless they unequivocally repent of their failure and the failure of their predecessors to explicitly teach this, then a long night of high-tech terror, torture and desolation is assured all humanity – first world, third world, East and West. What has to be done is that we Christian “leaders” have to admit openly that we have been engaged in propagating a bloody moral blunder for the last 1700 years: the Just War Theory.

Q: Specifically, how does your pilgrimage to Japan for this August 6th and 9th in1984 respond to this need?

Zabelka: If my priestly silence spoke for the Church in 1945 to the fellows on Tinian, perhaps my priestly request for forgiveness at Hiroshima and Nagasaki can speak for the Church in 1984.

You see, I want to expose the lie of “Christian” war.

The lie I fell for and blessed.

I want to expose the lie of killing as a Christian social method, the lie of disposable people, the lie of Christian liturgy in the service of the homicidal gods of nationalism and militarism, the lie of nuclear security.

I want to expose it by looking into the faces of the hibaksha and saying, “Brother, forgive me for bringing you death instead of the fullness of life. Sister, pardon me for bringing you misery instead of mercy.
I and my Church have sinned against you and God.” It is hope in the Power of that small moment of truth, repentance and reconciliation that moves me to pilgrimage East by the grace of God.

R
rbanks


chapel wrote:
Mr. rbanks,

You are absolutely right, we are living in a world that will be at war until Jesus comes, but nowhere did Jesus or his disciples tell us we were to be a part of it. I will not go into all the scriptures regarding this but I will say that we have every right to judge our brothers as long as we judge righteous judgment.
John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

That is, judge by the words of Christ, just as he is going to do.

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Anyone who claims that Jesus told us to follow our governments into war are teaching false doctrine no matter what your reasoning may be.

Since you find humor in being in a foxhole shows you have never been in one, I have and I find no humor in your comment.
Watch your buddies die as you lay in a foxhole critically wounded and thus unable to do anything to stop it and then find yourself one of a few who survived and I doubt if you will find any humor either.


If the two of you continue to teach that Christians should go to war you may possibly get your wish of you and ccchhhrrriiisss in a foxhole fighting for anti christ.

I can do something Mr. rbanks, I can continue to point to the word of our Lord and not stop even though you and others tell me not to expose false doctrine.



Dear Chapel,

Why I have even posted on this thread only the Lord really knows. I really do hate war and have told my son when I saw him playing a war game or watching a war picture not to, because war is horrible. I am sorry for the comment concerning the foxhole because I really was not thinking about it the way you took it. I have often spoken against humor at the expense of another. It would be alright with me if the Lord really did come quickly and put an end to all the horror in this world. The only reason why he hasn’t come must be because of his longsuffering that none should have to perish and the restitution of all things.

You can judge me all you want because I don’t really deserve the grace of God anyway, but I will never advocate war, but consider myself to be an ambassador for Christ. I have been given the ministry of reconciliation. I also believe in church and state separation because the church is not of this world. I desire that Christ use me to win souls to God. I believe God wants me to respect all those in authority and that he desires all men to be saved.

Chapel, I pray God’s best in your life and will admit that I don’t know all the things you are speaking of and have never before given it much thought. I will pray now more concerning what you have mentioned but I will only be promoting the Lord and his gospel. I believe there are some things better left unsaid because we don’t have all knowledge. I don’t want people to get the wrong understanding when I really don’t know what to do about a situation that I have no control over.

In Christ Love.


L
Leo_Grace

Dear rbanks,

There was a good reason why God had you post in this thread, because you said things that needed to be said. I was blessed by your post and those of Chris also. They show you both to be Spirit-filled with a love for others that can only be from God. Despite what others may say, nothing in your posts show you to be a war-monger, so there was really no reason for you to defend yourself on that point. I wish to thank you for your contribution to this thread, because I was blessed by your posts, as I believe many others will also be.

There is a raging ogre wearing a "peacemaker" T-shirt in this thread who has done nothing but bludgeon the heads of all those who disagree even the slightest with him, using a war club with the words "turn the other cheek" written on it. He calls war-mongers those who are not war-mongers so he can teach them a lesson with his war club. He has also called them heretics and anti-Christs because they don't share his view, which is not Scripturally sound to begin with. He appears too proud to listen to correction or rebuke, and too blind to see the hypocrisy of his actions.

By all means, let us pray for him.

S
sermonindex

Here's my view:

God help the man who tries to hurt my babies. He had better pray HARD that the police get to him before I do.

H
HeartSong


God bless you chapel - for standing in the light of His truth. Oh that I would learn to stand so fearlessly in such an onslaught of adversity. Oh that I would learn to stand so continuously in Him. May the glorious light of His truth unlock the hearts of those that do not yet see.

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus." - Revelation 22:20

C
ChrisJD

He has also called them heretics...

One of the things I have come to understand about heresy is that it sets others against each other.

You may have a group of people that are altogether as one and at peace with each other and one from among them stands up and begins to voice his opinion. Suddenly everyone around him is being put in the postion of making a decision on how they view what he is saying.

And if he continues to do so, he may not stop untill everyone is thoroughly divided along differing lines.


Strong's defines the word this way:


G139
αἵρεσις
hairesis
hah'ee-res-is
From G138; properly a choice, that is, (specifically) a party or (abstractly) disunion. (“heresy” is the Greek word itself.): - heresy [which is the Greekord itself], sect.

C
chapel

Christian Century, 12/14/66

A Theology of Nonresistance

Man's ultimate liberty cannot be defended by war; indeed, the very act of going to war marks its loss.


by Vernard Eller

This article was originally published by The Christian Century Foundation, Chicago, IL, in The Christian Century, on December 14, 1966. It is reproduced here with their kind permission.
This work may be freely reproduced and distributed provided that that no changes are made, no revenues are collected beyond the nominal cost of media, and credit is given to the author, The Christian Century Foundation, and House Church Central. Any other use requires the written permission of the author. Citing this material on other Internet sites is encouraged, but is to be done only by providing a hypertext reference to this file on this server.

http://www.hccentral.com/eller1/cc121466.html


I propose to set before you a theology of nonresistance. Let me insist at once that a theology of nonresistance is not the same thing as the case for nonresistance. Rather, what I have to say proceeds from the profound conviction that the only adequate basis for a truly Christian pacifism must come from a committed reading of the New Testament, must signify obedience to Christ's teaching and counsel. Theological explanations come later. But since the human mind seeks to understand that which it is called on to obey, it is proper to set forth a theology of nonresistance and use rational constructs to fill in behind first-order convictions of faith.

I. The "Scale of Liberties" Approach

Having relegated theological arguments to a second place, I now relegate arguments of prudence to no place at all. More often than not, pacifism is sold as a social and political technique. It is asserted that ways of peace would be more effective in attaining our national goals than ways of war could ever be, that love can do everything war can do and do it better. This may very well be true in most if not all situations. But for a Christian to propose this as the ground of his position is to betray his own intention. For he has thus moved the question into the realm of casuistry, has sacrificed any ultimate appeal to religious principle in the interest of arguing cases. He has, in effect, deserted his religious authority and given the matter over to the political scientists and statesmen. And although these gentlemen's findings today should support the view that nonresistance is the more effective technique, there always remains the live possibility that under the altered circumstances of tomorrow the findings might honestly point to a different conclusion. Considerations of expediency well may recommend a policy of peace, and Christian pacifists of course are happy when competent social scientists come to this view. But such a finding is in no sense the basis for a specifically religious, or Christian, position.

In this connection, the term "nonresistance" seems preferable to "pacifism." "Nonresistance" has biblical rootage in Jesus' "Do not resist one who is evil" (Mt. 5:39); and the very word "pacifism" has come to suggest the argument of expediency, the use of love as a calculated technique for achieving social and political goals.

Having then, for present purposes, disavowed all prudential arguments, I proceed to theology proper. Actually, the distance between a Christian pacifist and a Christian nonpacifist is not so great as might appear. ("Nonpacifist" is an awkward enough term, to be sure; but on the other hand, it is manifestly unjust to refer to all who are not pacifists as "militarists".) No Christian takes joy in war; the nonpacifist is as much "against" war as is the pacifist. In extreme cases, however, the nonpacifist feels bound to affirm that liberty--which itself is just as much one of God's good gifts as is peace--is of such value that it must be preserved even at the cost of war. And the Christian certainly will figure the "cost of war" as much in terms of the damage he will be forced to inflict as in terms of that he will have to suffer.

The theology I propose steals a march on the nonpacifist (to use a military metaphor) by building upon the very same principle; namely, that liberty is of such value that it must be preserved whatever the cost. This statement can only mean that there are certain liberties which must be preserved; for it is obvious that liberty in the abstract is so vague as hardly to be defendable, and equally obvious that men are quite willing to sacrifice certain liberties precisely that they may defend certain others. In reality, then, each man holds to a scale of liberties (perhaps, or probably, without being aware of it), and is willing to sacrifice any and all the liberties below a given point in order to preserve those that lie above. Thus--to use an illustration that contrasts a very low liberty with a very high one and so makes the distinction easy--during World War II we were willing to forego the liberty of indulging our taste for sugar in the interests of preserving the higher liberty of national existence. Toward the top of any person's scale surely would lie the liberties guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. Probably most Christians would be willing to sacrifice their liberty' to vote if this were the only way they could present freedom of worship; and so on.

In most cases the liberty that stands at the top of the scale, the freedom for which one would be willing to sacrifice every other, is the fundamental freedom of living, of simply staying alive. For many men, however, and particularly for Christians, this top-ranked freedom must be further defined; for these people are willing to sacrifice their own lives in order to preserve the freedom of living for others, whether those "others" be thought of as the nation, the family back home, or the buddies in the foxhole.

Clearly, too, on this scale of liberties each nonpacifist--and, theoretically, each "prudential pacifist" as well--has a point at which he would be willing even to go to war in order to preserve the liberties above that point. Of course, in view of the Christian assessment of the cost of war, that point will be high up indeed.

Positively the only thing wrong with this scale-of-liberties thinking as used by the nonpacifist is that it overlooks a liberty which the Christian must put at the very top; namely, man's ultimate liberty, for which he should be willing to sacrifice all others. But, strangely enough, this is a liberty which need not and indeed cannot be defended by war; and what is even more strange, the very act of going to war marks its loss.

II. The Nature of Man

My argument here builds upon a conception of the nature of man (and of God) that is not uncommon in contemporary theology, but which I have derived most directly from such men as Søren Kierkegaard, Martin Buber, Emil Brunner and Hugh Vernon White. Man fundamentally is to be understood as a spiritual person (or a personal spirit), whereas God is understood as the spiritual Person. "Personhood" (a more awkward but much more accurate term than "personality") is constituted in one's actions as a free moral agent. A person acts within a real, concrete, living milieu, and in his acting he makes choices--not only in the simple sense of deciding between two offered alternatives but in the more complex sense of creating and molding new alternatives and higher syntheses. Therefore the "person" in his actions is, above all, free; he is responsible and answerable. The integrity of his action is such that he must be considered as an entity complete and whole in himself, never as a part or particular within a larger system.

This is not to overlook or deny that man is dependent on God, that he becomes a true person Only as he recognizes and lives within this dependency, even though the acceptance of the relationship is a free act on his part. Just as the baby becomes a human being in response to and imitation of the human beings who confront him, so men become true persons only as they respond positively to the confrontation of the spiritual Person, God. This positive response we call "faith," and in the faith relationship is found a person-to-Person communion, an I-Thou fellowship in which the two spirits coinhere without loss of personal identity. They remain distinct but not separate. On the other hand, a negative response to God's confrontation, in which the human person asserts his freedom in the face of God, in defiance, disobedience and disdain--this response we call "sin." And it results in alienation and disharmony, in "distance" between God and man.

From the foregoing it follows that man's ultimate liberty is precisely this freedom to become a true person--to respond to God in faith, to know even as one is known. If need be, the Christian will relinquish every other liberty in the interests of preserving this one, for "if the Son [i.e., the One in whom the Christian confronts God] makes you free, you will be free indeed" (Jn. 8:36).
III. The "Ultimate Liberty" of Every Person

Observe, in the first place, that this freedom cannot be threatened by evil men and therefore need not and cannot be defended through war. Though a man be imprisoned, tortured, deprived of all his customary liberties, his freedom of access to God is not touched. If he be killed--Paul says that it actually is better to depart and be with Christ, and Jesus assures us that we need not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

In theory at least, there is one way in which a human oppressor could threaten this ultimate liberty. If he suppressed religion so successfully that children grew up without knowledge of the gospel, then their freedom of access to God would seem to be abrogated. Historically, however, things have not worked in this fashion. "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church." Godless regimes never have proved an insurmountable obstacle to the spread of the gospel. Warfare may be effective in preserving other liberties, but it is neither necessary nor useful in preserving man's ultimate liberty.

Is there, then, any quarter from which this liberty can be threatened? Is it possible for this liberty to be lost? Yes. A man himself, through his own Sin, Can and does destroy his freedom of personal access to God. And there is one manner of sinning through which this loss of freedom becomes acute. Whenever I deny or fail to respect the "personhood" of another man I effectually deny my own personhood. I cannot be in a positive relationship to God while refusing another the possibility of that same relationship. "If anyone says, 'I love God,' and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen" (1 Jn. 4:20).

To treat another as though he were anything less than a person (in the full meaning of that term) is, of course, a sin against that man. But even more it is (like all sin) a sin against God; for consider the lengths to which God has gone, the price he has paid in enabling that man to become a person. Through creation, God endowed that man (as he did me) with the freedom, the positive capabilities, and all gifts that make personhood possible. And God gave his only Son for that man (as he gave him for me) in order that that man might become a true person. To recognize a man's personhood, then, actually means to recognize him as "a brother for whom Christ died." To fail to respect this identification is to fail to respect God in his greatest act; it is, in effect, to deny the efficacy of Christ in one's own case and thus one's own relationship to God.

So I impair the ultimate freedom of mankind every time I fail to respect the other man as a person, every time I fail to honor him as a brother for whom Christ died. And since military warfare is the human institution in which men are treated least like persons, it follows that war--no matter how effective it may be in preserving lesser liberties--inevitably destroys our ultimate liberty.

IV. The Basic Evil of War

In this view, the final evil of war does not lie specifically in what is done to the enemy. It is quite conceivable that one man could take another's life while still respecting him as a person. Such certainly would be the case in so-called "mercy killings," and it might be argued that gunning down a homicidal maniac ultimately works for his own good as well as society's. No, the basic evil of war lies in the estimate of other persons that it demands from and engenders in us.

"But," the nonpacifist may object, "this is a misunderstanding of war. Hate is not a necessary or even desirable concomitant. The soldier who fights coolly, objectively, doing it as a job that has to be done, is a much better soldier than the recruit who becomes emotionally involved, who sees red and feels hot hatred toward the enemy."

If "hate" is thus narrowly defined, the ultimate evil of war is not even in the hatred it arouses. In fact, from the viewpoint I am developing, hate is less insidious than this "cold objectivity"; for hate is at least a "personal" relationship (though inverted), whereas cold objectivity means precisely to treat the other man as though he were a thing rather than a person.

[A short extract from Ernest Hemingway’s For Whom the Bell Tolls appeared at this point in The Christian Century article that well illustrated the discussion that follows, however House Church Central could not get permission from the Hemingway estate to reproduce that material on the Internet].

A revulsion toward war must be natural to every Christian--it is a true instinct. The atrocities of war hardly can represent God's will. Those who conscientiously participate in war give way to the voice logic, the psychology, by which Christians overcome their revulsion.

War becomes possible to a Christian only as he considers himself an "instrument to do his duty" and considers the enemy a "target," not a whole man but a point to be shot at. How subtly and yet how inevitably these impersonal thought forms take over is well illustrated by Paul Ramsey's Century article (July 20 issue) in defense of U.S. policy in Vietnam. Whether consciously or subconsciously, I submit that, as a Christian ethicist, Ramsey felt uncomfortable in defending "war" and so shifted his terminology to talk about "arbitration [or even arbitrament] of arms." And what is an arbitrament of arms, for goodness' sake? It is a couple of old-fashioned gallants covered from head to toe with steel mesh, riding at each other with clubs until one of them falls off his horse; whereupon the victor alights to help the vanquished to his feet and lead him to the castle where they can continue their arbitrament over a bowl of mead. "War," everybody knows, is hell; but an "arbitrament of arms"--now there is a concept at which even the nicest Christian need not blanch!

V. Conclusion

But this way of thinking is a denial of that freedom which is worth much more than all the freedoms that may be preserved in consequence. In the first place, men are persons and will remain so regardless of how we choose to view them. Thinking of them as instruments and targets does not make them so. And war is war--nothing else--and getting more that way all the time. But to even greater point: what insult is it to the other man, what damage to my personal relationship to him and to God, what affront to that God who gave his only Son that both I and my enemy might become true persons, when I deliberately suspend my Christian understanding in order to consider men mere things.

Yet this is what war does and must do. In what conflict may come, the only expediency that will enable an American Christian to launch a missile wiping out hundreds of thousands of men, women and children is that he will not have to aim the missile at persons--not even at a city. His aim will be simply to hit a target, only to direct a radar blip to a given set of coordinates. So far can persons be impersonalized.

If our faith is right that God and God alone is the Lord of history, then is it not somewhat presumptuous for man to claim the prescience to recognize the turning points of history, the wisdom to see what must be done at that point, and the authority to take the matter into his own hands? Can it conceivably be the will of God that his holy intentions for history be accomplished by man's renouncing the Christian estimate of persons?

Of course one dare not base an argument on what might have happened if what did happen hadn't; yet it is plain that numerous battles and wars in which Participating Christians considered victory crucial for the future of the race were in fact lost--and lost without jeopardizing the race or frustrating God's purposes for it. The Christian's responsibility is to act in obedience and faith; it is God's responsibility to oversee history and its turning points.

"All of this is well and good," the nonpacifist may reply, "but it overlooks one very painful dilemma. If when one nation overruns another I stand by and do nothing, I actually am treating the victims as less than persons in the interests of treating the oppressors as persons. If, for instance, because of nonresistant principles I allow the Vietcong to take over, I am in effect impersonalizing the South Vietnamese."

This argument is at best only half true. To refuse to come to the military defense of the victim could be a sign of unconcern, but it is not inevitably so. The Christian pacifist is obliged to do everything possible in behalf of the victim--short of treating the oppressors as less than persons. He will bring to bear all appropriate political and moral suasions in the effort to prevent the oppression; he will use every opportunity to minister to the victim in the way of sympathetic concern, moral support, relief and rehabilitation; he will pray unceasingly in behalf of both victim and oppressor. Surely such an attitude and such activity cannot be classified as personal unconcern and irresponsibility. Indeed, the Christian pacifist and nonpacifist part ways only at the point of war and preparation for war; their political and social activity can be in concert up to that point.

War is out of order because of the impersonalization it fosters. But, it might be objected, this impersonalization is the mark of many other institutions as well--business, labor, public education, mass communications, government, etc. True; and the Christian must be alert to the threat wherever it appears in our social life. But the difference is this: these other institutions need not be impersonalizing; the Christian can and will work at reforming them. War, however, is an institution whose very existence depends on man's ability to impersonalize.
Reform of it is out of the question. Thus the Christian is obliged to work for war's abolishment.
And until war is abolished the Christian must refuse to participate in it lest he abet the jeopardy of the one freedom that is infinitely more precious than any and all other freedoms he might defend.
***************************************

C
chapel

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I have spent a number of months studying the post of Pastorfrin who was able to say so much with such short post which I greatly admire. It seems I have proved my inability to do so.

Let me say to all of you that I am sorry for hurting any of you with words which were not meant to do so and if I have please forgive me.
I would give my life for anyone of you, though it would not be through the use of violence: all I can do is offer my life in your place as I have been taught by my Lord.

This is a very hard time of year for me as this was when I was involved in the taking and loss of many lives. I do get emotional and I do not mean to hurt anyone, but I do stand by the principles of these post and the things I have written, though I agree some of it could and should have been worded differently.
Again, I am sorry and ask your forgiveness.


The issue at hand: Will You Kill or Be Killed

Luke 9:51-56
And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, [52] And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. [53] And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. [54] And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? [55] But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. [56] For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

The Lords own words: “Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. [56] For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.”

His command:

Matthew 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Matthew 28:17-20
And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. [18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Acts 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jesus came not to destroy men’s lives but to save them, and he has commanded us to be witnesses to all the world so who do we obey, the Lord or man? Jesus taught the disciples, the disciples taught the early church, and the early church has tried to teach us. We must decide if we listen to and obey the word of God or the words of men who say the spirit has told them something different.

Peace and love to all
lee

L
Leo_Grace

Dear Lee,

As I told you before, I do respect your position on this topic and any differences we may have are quite small - definitely not worth the bitterness that has resulted. Please forgive my own harsh words. In my heart, all is forgiven and forgotten. I will pray also for emotional healing from your traumatic war experience.

Your friend and brother,
Leo

S
sermonindex

Leo writes...

"In my heart, all is forgiven and forgotten"

Amen brother, I cannot help thinking that the enemy of our souls has been outdone by these words and brother Chapel's words....

"Let me say to all of you that I am sorry for hurting any of you with words which were not meant to do so and if I have please forgive me."

Amen to humble hearts that seek to glorify God...........Frank


C
chapel

Dear Brother Leo,

Thank you for your show of love in offering your forgiveness. It is truly by our love one for another that the world knows we are His disciples. In my heart also all is forgotten and forgiven. I will cherish your prayers as I still do have times when I struggle with the past, even though I know all has been forgiven by my Lord the enemy never gives up with his accusations. Again thank you for your forgiveness.
Your brother in Christ
lee

H
HeartSong

Oh! - Satan is getting defeated all over the place!

Everyone is putting down their sword!

Oh, praise the Lord! :-D Thank you Jesus!

God bless you all my brothers!

G
ginnyrose

Ah, non-resistance at work! PTL! It does work!

Yes, Pastorfrin left a wonderful example in knowing how to respond to those who would disagree. He taught me a lot. And I am not done learning.

This is a blessing to read...God bless one and all.

ginnyrose

C
chapel

SPIRITUALITY TODAY
Spring 1986, Vol. 38, pp. 100-110.

Don Murphy:

Can a Christian Be a Pacifist?

Today's 'peace churches' attempt to follow the radically simple teaching; of early Christianity to wage peace through loving non-violence.

-------------------------------------------------
Don Murphy publishes a Japanese Christian newsletter which he distributes to various Hutterite communities in North America. He also publishes a newsletter for an itinerant Irish priest and has written several articles and pamphlets on pacifism and spirituality. A full-time computer software author. Don and his wife live in Renton, Washington.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PACIFISM means different things to different people. Its dictionary definition is "the opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes." To some it means demonstrations which try to stop nuclear submarines or trains carrying nuclear weapons. To others it means selling out to the Russians. Many tend to ignore the subject, perhaps fearful of what changes it would bring to their lives if they were to investigate it carefully. One thing is certain: it is an explosive issue, touching deep into the faith life of the disciple of Jesus Christ.

Can a Christian be a pacifist in this modern world? Can one completely reject the use of violence on both a personal level and on a national level? If someone wants to take what is ours, must we reject the use of force to stop him? Does our position on this issue, the use of force in order to have our own way, reflect our relationship with God? Does it indicate our faith in God and in his control of events in our lives? Let us explore this subject, attempting to examine it not only with our logical mind but also with our spiritual eye, trusting that God will guide us on this path and provide us with his light that we may see the truth.

If pacifism is of God, then like all things of God, it does not stand alone. In the great wisdom of God, it has to be deeply mixed with the other areas of the Christian walk such as love for others, rejection of the world, and trusting God in all matters concerning our lives.

THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS

Jesus appeared to teach pacifism when he told his disciples: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God . . . . Do not resist the evil man but whoever slaps you on the right cheek turn to him the other also. And if anyone wants to sue you for your shirt, let him have your coat as well. Love your enemies. Give to everyone who asks you; when a man takes what is yours, do not demand it back" (Luke 6:30 and Matt. 5:9-44). These are hard sayings of Jesus and we might respond, as some of his listeners have done elsewhere, "Who can follow them?"

Jesus declared that the life of the Christian will be different from the life of the Old Testament Jew. One of the areas of change is in the Christian's relations with other people. Love is now to be the overriding concern. He said, "You have learned that our forefathers were told, 'Do not commit murder; anyone who commits murder must be brought to judgment.' But what I tell you is this: Anyone who nurses anger against his brother must be brought to judgment. If he abuses his brother he must answer for it to the court; if he sneers at him he will have to answer for it in the fires of hell" (Matt. 5:21-24). Jesus does not even allow a Christian to be angry with someone! What then will he do with those who kill?

Jesus taught, "You have learned that they were told, 'Eye for eye, tooth for tooth.' But what I tell you is this: Do not set yourself against the man who wrongs you" (Matt. 5:38-39). What a strong statement! Only the Son of God could call for such faith in God's control of the situation. Is he telling us that the Christian life is to be lived in the Kingdom of God and not in this world?

The apostle Paul said on the subject of peace, "Let us pursue the things that make for peace and build up the common life" (Rom. 14:19). And "The Kingdom of God is justice, peace and joy, inspired by the Holy Spirit" (Rom. 14:17). The disciple James wrote,

The wisdom from above is in the first place pure; and then peace-loving, considerate, and open to reason; it is straightforward and sincere, rich in mercy and in the kindly deeds that are its fruit. True justice is the harvest reaped by peace-makers from seed sown in a spirit of peace. What causes conflicts and quarrels among you? Do they not spring from the aggressiveness of your bodily desires? You want something which you can not have, and so you are bent on murder; you are envious, and cannot attain your ambition, and so you quarrel and fight (James 3:17-4:2).
What could be more clear? How can it be made more understandable? The Bible is plainly telling us that peace and love (pacifism) comes from God while violence and greed (the antithesis of pacifism) spring from the evil in one's heart. Can we accept this? If we have greed in our heart, don't we want to push down and hide this truth?
God would have us be at peace with all men but not all men want to be at peace with us. When we get into a situation that requires us to respond either with violence or with non-violence, does God just sit back and watch our reactions to see if we do right or is God actively involved in what is occurring? This is perhaps the heart of the matter for many people. Are we on our own or is God watching over us as a father watches over his children? To what degree does God control the affairs of human persons? If we are on our own then we need to be in control of our lives but if God is in charge we would allow God to control our actions.

The Bible has much to say about God's hand on the affairs of the world. Paul's speech in Athens makes it plain:

Since the God who made the world and everything in it is himself Lord of heaven and earth, he does not make his home in shrines made by human hands. Nor is he dependent on anything that human hands can do for him, since he can never be in need of anything; on the contrary, it is he who gives everything -- including life and breath -- to everyone. From one single stock he not only created the whole human race so that they could occupy the entire earth, but he decreed how long each nation should flourish and what the boundaries of its territory should be. And he did this so that all nations might seek the Lord and, by feeling their way towards him, succeed in finding him. Yet in fact he is not far from any of us, since it is in him that we live, and move, and exist (Acts 17:24-28).
Psalm 121 tells us that the Lord is always watching over us, day and night, to guard us. Jesus tells us that not even the sparrows are forgotten by God. "More than that, even the hairs of your head have all been counted" (Luke 12:6-7). There is much in the Bible to show us that God works all things for our good, that we need have no fear.

EARLY CHURCH PRACTICE

When we are seeking the true meaning of the teachings of the Bible, it can be helpful to us to go back to our roots, the early church which was founded by Christ through the power of the Spirit of God. The manner in which the early church lived out the teachings of Christ may help us to understand how we are to live the Christian way as the early church was taught by the apostles who were taught by Jesus.

The early church took the teachings of Jesus and the apostles very seriously. Guided by the Holy Spirit, they were strong pacifists. They did not identify with any earthly nation but rather claimed citizenship in heaven, considering themselves as strangers and aliens on the earth (Heb. 11:13-16 and I Peter 2:11). They believed that the governments were given by God and therefore to be obeyed when it did not conflict with obeying God (Acts 4:19; Rom. 13:1-6 and I Peter 2:13-14). However, Christians could not be judges or soldiers as this would place them in positions where they might be responsible for taking someone's life.

Most serious scholars of church history today agree that for the first three centuries of the Christian church, Christians rejected not only emperor-worship and idolatry but also participation in the military. Obedience to the gospel, the early church held, was consistent only with a position of nonresistance and not serving in the military. This does not mean, of course, that all early Christians were consistently following the teachings of Christ and the apostles. The New Testament gives us much evidence that not all were true to the gospel but many were lured by Satan off the narrow path.

Yale church historian Roland Bainton writes, "From the end of the New Testament period to the decade 170-180 there is no evidence whatever of Christians in the army. All of the East and West repudiated participation in warfare for Christians." Guy F. Hershberger adds, "it is quite clear that prior to about AD 174 it is impossible to speak of Christian soldiers." None of the Christian leaders in the pre-Constantinian era (ca. 313) approved of a military career for disciples of Jesus Christ.

Many early writers spoke of this pacifism. Tertullian wrote, "The divine banner and the human banner do not go together, nor the standard of Christ and the standard of the devil. Only without the sword can the Christian wage war: for the Lord has abolished the sword."(1) About 240, Origen wrote, "You cannot demand military service of Christians any more than you can of priests. We do not go forth as soldiers."(2)

Justin Martyr wrote about the year 160, "We ourselves were well conversant with war, murder, and everything evil, but all of us throughout the whole wide earth have traded in our weapons of war. We have exchanged our swords for ploughshares, our spears for farm tools. Now we cultivate the fear of God, justice, kindness to men, faith, and the expectation of the future given to us by the Father himself through the Crucified One."(3) Twenty years later, Athenagoras asked, "How can we possibly kill anyone, we who call those women murderers who take drugs to induce an abortion, we who say they will have to give an account before God one day! We are convinced that with God nothing goes unexamined, and that the body, after serving the irrational urges and lusts of the soul, will have its share in punishment. We have, therefore, every reason to detest even the slightest sin."(4) Hippolytus (ca. 218) states that soldiers who become Christians are not allowed to kill and must refuse to obey orders to kill. He also says that judges who want to become followers of the Christ must resign or be rejected by the church.(5)

Continued:

M
murrcolr

Jesus appeared to teach pacifism

But yet he lets the disciples carry swords.

John 18:10-11 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

What was Jesus concern when the guys ear gets cut off well it was about was doing the will of the Father.

Also if they where so strong pacifists why did carry swords why did Jesus not ban them from carrying the swords.

I have a question for all the pacifists and it's got to do with a scripture.

Matt5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

You preach an outward pacifism but on the inside are you free from anger, do you rage on the inside, do you get angery with you spouse, your children, other christians.

Instead of trying to bombard us with your doctrinal view point you should be more concerned about the inward condition of your heart.

You know I really hope that you all get a could slap on the face someday soon just so you can see what pops up from the inside of you.

Then you'll know if your a whitewashed tomb or not.

R
rainydaygirl

Hey murrcolr

You wrote-You know I really hope that you all get a could slap on the face someday soon just so you can see what pops up from the inside of you.
____

What a horrible thing to say to a fellow brother in Christ. To wish something bad happens to them. Is that really how Jesus would want us to share with one another hoping bad things happen to each other? You know what I am going to be praying for you, my prayer is that you never encounter that kind of pain in the future. My prayer for you is that you and your family will always have the covering and protection of the Lord all the days of your life. I mean that with all my heart to.

with care in Him
rdg

C
chapel

SPIRITUALITY TODAY
Spring 1986, Vol. 38, pp. 100-110.

Don Murphy:

Can a Christian Be a Pacifist?

Continued:

MODERN PRACTICE

This pacifism did not survive the Constantinian change. By the year 314, the church was excommunicating military deserters without any consideration of the motives for desertion. Leo Tolstoy, author of War and Peace, said, "A pacifist can not own property. For ownership requires the use or threat of force to protect it." When the early church gave up community living and began living as individuals with each one owning their own possessions then the church also gave up pacifism. The two seem to go together.

Dr. Eberhard Arnold, founder of the Society of Brothers, began to question the wisdom of the Christian churches when he observed the results of World War I. He saw the German Christian soldiers killing and being killed by the enemy soldiers who also claimed to be Christian. How could German Christian ministers and priests bless the German army and send it off to war while the enemy Christian ministers and priests were blessing their armies and sending them off to war also? How could a Christian soldier maim and kill other Christian soldiers? How can one part of the Body of Christ do evil to another part? This seemed very contrary to the teaching of the Bible to Dr. Arnold. This line of reasoning led him to become a pacifist.

The churches today, as of Dr. Arnold's time, have problems dealing with the issue of pacifism. There are the historic peace churches such as the Mennonites, the Quakers and the Church of the Brethren that preach pacifism. Then there are those churches that accept the so-called 'just war position. Many of these have developed elaborate guidelines as to what constitutes a just war. But there are also those ministers of the gospel of Jesus that preach nationalism, loyalty to the state and hatred of governments that oppose ours. In his book, Preachers Present Arms, Ray H. Abrams documents at length the story of the involvement of the clergy in the world wars as well as the Vietnam war. One minister told his people, "We are fighting not only for our country and for the democracy of the world but for the kingdom of God .... We can not draw the line between Christianity and the military. The two go together. Every church should be a recruiting station."

Governments are created by God as servants whose duty it is to take vengeance on evildoers, to punish the evil and to protect and shelter its citizens. God has given the sword into their hands. He has granted the government honor and dignity that it might rightly be obeyed in that which is not against God. But because governments are outside the perfection of Christ, they sometimes feel a need to go to war with their neighbors. To do this they need an army that will carry out their bidding. Governments recognize that most young people can not be aroused to kill unless they first hate those that they kill. Therefore, before a government leads its people into war, great propaganda efforts must be made to bring people to the point where they can believe it is right to kill other human beings. Often, in the guise of religion, they declare that the enemy is evil and under the control of the devil. At the same time they may state that God is with them. These propaganda efforts to bring forth hatred should alert the Christian immediately that something is wrong. Hatred should be obviously identified as the work of Satan and not of Jesus Christ.

Supporting the military activities of a government seems to be in opposition to the call of the New Testament to reject the world. John tells us to love not the world nor the things of the world. Jesus said that his disciples are in the world but not of the world. Rejection of the worldly system means rejection of selfishness which is what nationalism boils down to. When a country says "This is mine" and fights to get it or keep it, then those who support it are following a spirit other than the Spirit of Christ.

The faith required to be a pacifist must provide the Christian with the assurance that God is in charge of all that happens to the Christian. Just as Jesus said that we should look to the Father for our daily needs, we can be confident that he loves us and is leading us into God's kingdom. If we can not trust God then we need to trust in our own power. But we, who call ourselves followers of Christ, have placed our complete trust in God.

Considerable human logic is used by the opponents of pacifism. Their arguments sound reasonable until we remember that Christians are in the 'upside down' kingdom where things are done differently than in the world. The opponents of pacifism may recognize Jesus as the Christ but in their arguments against pacifism they are noticeably lacking in any attempt to support their position with the teachings of Jesus or the apostles. This seems very inconsistent for such an important subject.

The late Francis A. Schaeffer, author of A Christian Manifesto, stated,

I am not a pacifist because pacifism in this fallen world in which we live means that we desert the people who need our greatest help. Consider the following illustration: I am walking down the street. I see a great big, burly man who is beating a helpless little girl to death. I come up and I plead with him to stop. If he won't stop, what does love mean? Love means I stop him in any way I can including, quite frankly, hitting him. To me this is necessary Christian love in a fallen world. What about the little girl? If I desert the little girl to the bully, I have deserted the true meaning of Christian love and responsibility to my neighbor. Now extend this illustration to violence at a national level. We have in World War II the clearest possible illustration with Hitler's terrorism. There was no possible way to stop the awful terror that was occurring in Hitler's Germany except by the use of force. As far as I'm concerned, this is the necessary outworking of Christian love. The world is an abnormal world. Because of the fall it is not the way God meant it to be.(6)
Schaeffer presents the classical arguments against pacifism with his 'what would you do if . . .'situation. He seems to feel that it is necessary to combat violence with violence ('an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth'). He ignores the fact that responding with violence may make the situation worse instead of better. If he resorts to force, what guarantee does he have that he will prevail? In fact the might lose and then the situation would be worse. On the other hand if he uses non-violent means to save the girl, his chances oaf succeeding are as good and perhaps better than if he resorts to violent means.

In his excellent book, What Would You Do?(7) John Howard Yoder, a leading Mennonite theologian, presents an excellent analysis of this type of argument against pacifism. He points out that, in addition to the various options that one has in such a situation as Schaeffer describes, there are always many unknown elements that may affect the outcome of our response. Choosing the violent response may often have surprisingly undesirable results as the history of international conflicts reveal (such as the U.S. governments disastrous decision to use military force in the Mid-East several years ago).

Schaeffer's argument also ignores the reality of the power of God in the situation. Nor does he justify his response by showing that he follows the explicit teachings of Jesus. Where does the hand of God fit in his reasoning? Isn't God in charge of what happens to his children? Yet Schaeffer seems to say that, since we live a in a 'fallen world,' we must use the world's method of survival. Shouldn't we be living in the kingdom of God, accepting whatever God sends us as for our good? This may seem simplistic to many but isn't that exactly what faith is all about? Only the simple, child-like faith that trusts completely in God's loving providence can produce the assurance that whatever God allows to happen is for our good.

Some people tend to confuse pacifism with passiveness. In a certain sense perhaps they are similar. To be passive means to receive or be subject to an action without responding or initiating an action in return. But passiveness also implies that one is not participating, that one is inert. In this sense nothing could be farther from the truth. A pacifist relies upon the power of his heavenly Father who is all-powerful. Therefore, he has greater influence on the events that effect his life than the non-believer because he can call upon his God who hears his cry and can move the mightiest of mountains. Certainly the prayers of a Christian for his nation have more effect upon the country than any political or military activity he might participate in. For the Bible tells us that "all government comes from God, the civil authorities are appointed by God" (Rom. 13:1). God is the one who controls their rise and fall and the extent of their territory (Acts 17:26). Schaeffer is sadly mistaken when he asserts that the only possible way to have stopped the awful terror caused by Hitler's Germany was by the use of force.

A Dutch book written in 1660 by T.J. van Braght, The Bloody Theater or Martyrs Mirror of the Defenseless Christians, describes all the known martyrdoms from the first century to 1660. It also attempts to describe the faith of the Christians that allowed them to submit humbly to death, even the most horrible of deaths. It is a long record of those who died that they might live, who chose the lowest path so that God would raise them up to the highest. They testified to their faith in God with their blood. They accepted the evil of violence from others without returning the evil. Can we say that they were wrong and that they should have resisted with force? Or do we honor them for their faith?

PEACE-MAKING

When Jesus was questioned by Pilate, he said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, then my disciples would be fighting that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, my kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36). Jesus is truly king and members of his kingdom do not fight as members of the devil's kingdom do, killing and maiming their fellow man, but they fight a spiritual battle against spiritual forces that are far more powerful than human enemies.

Pacifism can not be separated from other areas of the life of a disciple. How can one be a pacifist, for example, if he has great wealth that needs to be protected? How can one be a pacifist if he has no love for the needy, if he is not willing to share with those in need? Pacifism itself is not the real issue. It is our relationship with God and our fellow human beings that is important. As we know, Jesus will judge us not on what doctrines we believe but on what actions we take to express our love for our heavenly Father and how we help God's children who are in need.

Pacifism, then, is really the sum of the fruits of the Spirit defined by the Apostle Paul as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, fidelity, gentleness, and self-control (Gal. 5:22-23). All of these ingredients are required to be a pacifist. But, above all, faith is required. And faith is a gift from God (I Cor. 12:9).

The evidence indicates that Jesus and his apostles opposed the use of violence as a means of settling disputes. The early Christians followed this path of 'defenseless Christianity' and many suffered martyrdom at the hands of violent men. It is something for us to consider. Perhaps a Christian should be a pacifist ....

As Paul indicates that there are different levels of faith (Rom. 14:1), so there are also different levels of pacifism (as pacifism is directly tied to faith). Some Christians would be pacifists except for 'just wars' while others are pacifists (such as members of the historic peace churches) to the extent that they would actively attempt to prevent wars (including civil protests against the arms race) and would register as conscientious objectors in the event that they were drafted into the military. The faith of a few Christians (such as the Hutterian Brethren) is such that, as pacifists, they could not take part in either military activities or political activities. (Since the government has the power of the sword, it has blood on its hands even in peace-time.)

Each follower of Jesus must examine his own conscience to determine his position on this important subject. The Bible tells us that "we all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one will receive what is due to him for his conduct in the body, whether good or bad" (II Cor. 5:10). "God is love and anyone who lives in love lives in God, and God lives in him. Love will come to its perfection in us when we can face the day of judgment without fear; because even in this world we have become as he is" (I John 4:16-17).


NOTES
On the Chaplet, 11-12.
Against Celsus, VIII.7.3.
Dialogue with Trypho, 110.3.
A Plea Regarding Christians, 32-35.
The Apostolic Tradition, 16.
Speech given in Washington, D.C. in 1982.
Scottsdale, Pennsylvania: Herald Press, 1983.
*********************************************

C
chapel

rainydaygirl wrote:

Hey murrcolr
You know what I am going to be praying for you, my prayer is that you never encounter that kind of pain in the future. My prayer for you is that you and your family will always have the covering and protection of the Lord all the days of your life. I mean that with all my heart to.

Hi rainydaygirl,

I agree with you in this prayer for murrcolr and his family and I mean it with all my heart as well.

Peace and love to all my brothers and sisters and thank you all again for your forgiveness.

Thank you rdg for your love and encouragement and your wonderful testimony on the other thread.

Your brother in Christ,
lee

M
murrcolr


rainydaygirl wrote:

What a horrible thing to say to a fellow brother in Christ. To wish something bad happens to them. Is that really how Jesus would want us to share with one another hoping bad things happen to each other? You know what I am going to be praying for you, my prayer is that you never encounter that kind of pain in the future. My prayer for you is that you and your family will always have the covering and protection of the Lord all the days of your life. I mean that with all my heart to.

You have missed the point and focused on the slap on the face.

murrcolr said:
just so you can see what pops up from the inside of you

This is what you should have focused on, the eternal issuse of the your heart condition.

Mark 7:21-23 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Know if that slap on the face made someone come to there senses and they became aware of the condition of there heart is that a horrible thing or a good thing.

To me it is a good thing a blessing rather than a curse.

RaindayGirl said: You know what I am going to be praying for you, my prayer is that you never encounter that kind of pain in the future.

The mind set of the church today is wrong it goes something like this. If you have your faith worked out correctly, you won't suffer. You'll be prosperous and won't have to worry about having troubles."

No -- those words don't appear in the Bible! On the contrary, Paul says we have been assigned to suffer for the sake of Christ.

Moreover, Paul wrote that every day he woke up "...not knowing the things that shall befall me there: save that the Holy Spirit witnesseth [solemnly testifies to me] in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide [await] me" (Acts 20:22- 23)

But our afflictions serve no purpose whatsoever if we do not understand why God permits them. The truth is that every affliction, trial, trouble, difficulty and disappointment in our life is allowed by the Lord. So if you get slaped in the face in the near future don't blame me, know that God has allowed it so a work can be done in you.

Listen to the psalmist's: "For thou, O God, hast proved us: thou hast tried us, as silver is tried. Thou broughtest us into the net; thou laidst affliction upon our loins. Thou hast caused men to ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water: but thou broughtest us out into a wealthy place" (Psalm 66:10-12).

Where does the psalmist say his affliction came from? It came directly from the hand of God! He's saying, "Lord, you put me in waters that rushed over my head, so I thought I would drown. You put me into the fire, to try me as silver is tried. You brought me into a net, laid affliction on my loins, caused men to trounce on me!"

Why did God allow such afflictions? It was because he was bringing his beloved child into a "wealthy place." In the original Hebrew this phrase means, "a place of abundant fruitfulness." God is saying, "I'm taking you through all these hard places to make you fruitful for my kingdom!"

M
MaryJane

Greetings murrcolr

I thought I would let you know that rainydaygirl is no longer posting or coming to SI. She and I are good friends and she had decided not to take part here any longer. I did not want you to think she is ignoring your reply to her, when she does not respond.

God Bless
maryjane

C
chapel

Jesus and the Sword of Self Defense (Luke 22:35-38)
by Eric Gabourel

Jesus in the Gospel according to Luke 22:36 tells His disciples that if they don't have
a sword to sell their cloaks and buy one. This statement is often abused by Christian just
war theorist to advocate Christian participation in war…a position which is irreconcilable
with the teachings of Jesus. Those who take the position that Jesus was telling His disciples to be prepared for battle or for self defense only emphasize this phrase from the passage.
To have an appropriate assessment of this statement one must treat the entire text (Luke 22:35-38).

Firstly, before Jesus tells His disciples to buy swords He calls them to recollect the
instance when He told them to go out and preach the Gospel without carrying purse, bag, or sandals (22:35; 10:4). He then asks them what they lacked when they were sent out to live by faith. Naturally they said nothing, because of God's sustaining power that responds to human faith in a lifestyle of radical simplicity and abandonment. Jesus in his
teachings on worry and anxiety (Luke 12:24-34) states that we should not be concerned
about human necessities: food, shelter, clothing, because these are the things that pagans
run after. Furthermore, He tells His followers to, “Sell their possessions and give to the
poor” (Luke 12:33). Therefore, Jesus in telling His disciples to now carry a purse and a
bag was not telling them to expunge what He initially told them. Jesus was telling them to do these things as a symbol of the impending crisis that was to ensue.

The other side of the equation is that He then goes on to tell them to sell their cloaks
and to buy swords. It is at this point that most Christian just war theorist cut Jesus off. He
goes on to say in the same breath, “so that I can be numbered with the transgressors”
(Luke 22:37). This quote from Isaiah 53:12 is usually remembered to be fulfilled in Mark
15:28 when Jesus was crucified between two criminals...and surely it was. In Luke’s
gospel account the quote is coming strait from the lips of Jesus rather then the authors Spirit inspired recognition. Most importantly Jesus is singling the transgressors out as His own disciples. The act of living by instincts of self preservation are disobedient to Jesus
teachings on worry (Luke 12:24-34), His sermon on the mount (Matthew 5-7), and His
sermon on the plain (Luke 6:17-49). In these teaching Jesus states that His followers
should be peacemakers (Matthew 5:9), He puts anger toward another human being on the
same level as murder (Matthew 5:21-22), not to live by an eye for an eye philosophy but
to resist evil people using creative nonviolent tactics (Matthew 5:38-42; Luke 6:29-31), to love our enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-28), forgiveness (Matthew 6:14-15) and reconciliation (Matthew 5:23-24).

After reading Jesus’ statement in this context it can only be concluded that purchasing
a sword or even having one for self-defense or militancy is in itself a transgression. Using a sword for self-defense or militancy is just as pagan as having more then what is necessary to survive as a human being.

Secondly, it is also difficult to argue for an interpretation of this text that insinuates that Jesus was urging his disciples to defend themselves because of His response when one of them does. When told to buy swords the disciples responded that they already had two swords. Jesus hastily responds, “That is enough” (Luke 22:38). After reflecting on this brief dialogue between Jesus and the disciple’s reason would ask, "How can two swords defend twelve men against what John witnessed to be a band of soldiers (John 18:3)?" A reasonable response would have to be that two swords could not defend twelve people against a band of soldiers armed with torches, swords and clubs (Matthew 26:47; Mark 14:43; John 18:3). Yet, one of the disciple’s devotion to Christ caused him to defend Jesus and himself from the mob.

In John’s account of Jesus’ arrest we find that Peter was the disciple who drew the
sword to cut off the ear of Malchus the servant of the high priest. The disciples in an
understandably confused state asked “Lord, should we strike with our swords” (Luke 22:
49)? Before they got a response from Jesus, Peter had already aggressively lashed out with his piercing blade. Jesus immediately says, “No more of this!” (Luke 22:51), “Put your sword away!” (John 18:11), “Put your sword back in its place, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword” (Matthew 26:52). If Jesus meant for them to use the swords He wouldn't have stopped them from using the measly two they had. Jesus goes on to assure them that He could, “Call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels” (Matthew 26:53). Jesus then embodies His teachings by demonstrating love for His enemies. He accomplishes this by miraculously restoring
Malchus’ severed ear to his head.

Finally, At this point one could argue that in each of these cases Jesus told them to put away the swords, not because He was against the use of arms in all ethical scenarios, but that the Scriptures may be fulfilled concerning Jesus’ death (Matthew 26:54; John 18:11b).
So that Jesus’ rebuke was only in the context of this one scenario and that the use of a
sword by His disciples was permissible in another context of self-defense or some offensive justification. It should first be noted that Jesus’ crucifixion was prophesied to be the redemption of humanity through His shed blood. But it wasn’t like Jesus was randomly picked out of a crowd and killed. He was crucified because He was an agitator. He proclaimed the Kingdom of God…a kingdom of justice, peace, and reconciliation to God and to other human beings.

The reason why the scenario of Peter using the sword was not situational and absolute
is because of Jesus’ statement to Pontus Pilate. While being interrogated by Pilate Jesus
stated that, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place” (John 18:36).
Ultimately the disciples of Jesus did not and can not fight with violence because the
Kingdom of Christ is a spiritual kingdom in stark contrast to the principles the present
world order. The kingdom way of resolving conflict and of social change is by using the
weapons of love and transformational nonviolent initiatives. Ones citizenship in this kingdom hinges on more then just confessing Christ as King and Savior; one is a citizen of this kingdom by living out the stipulations of the kingdom. Jesus stated that, “The kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21).

Furthermore, Jesus made a statement right before He told them to buy a sword in
finalizing the point. The dichotomy between the Kingdom of God and the present world
order was contrasted by Jesus when He told them not to be like the oppressive, racist,
militaristic Roman Empire. He stated that, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves” (Luke 22:25-26). To elaborate, Jesus was saying that He did not call His disciples to command army’s and spread the kingdom through military might; He did not call them to promote imperialism (neoliberalism and unjust free trade agreements that further privilege the rich and oppress the poor). Rather, He calls His disciples to be the servants of all. For His kingdom is a colony of servants concerned only for the well being of humanity through another centered, self sacrificing, and nonviolent love. This is the kingdom that Jesus reigns over and He stated that, “I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me” (Luke 22:29).

In conclusion, it should be noted that this is an interpretation that was more adhered to during the early centuries of Christianity. That Jesus’ teachings were for nonviolence and in opposition to participation in the military were clearly articulated during the patristic era.

This point was so clear and absolute to the early church that the 3rd century Ante-Nicene
church father Tertullian (c. A.D. 155-c. 215) was able to say that, “Christ, in disarming
Peter, unbelted every soldier” (De Idololatria 19).


C
chapel

A Soldier's War Experience

By Don Blanding

A Veteran of two wars wrote these Terrifying & Inspiring lines:

What did you see, soldier? What did you see at the war?
I saw such glory and horror as I've never seen before,
I saw men's hearts burned naked in red crucibles of pain;
I saw such Godlike courage as I'll never see again.

What did you hear, soldier? What did you hear at war?
I heard prayers on lips of men who had never prayed before;
I heard the men utter thoughts they will never think again;
I heard the sacred things they will not speak again.

What did you eat soldier? What did you eat at war?
I ate sour bread of fear, the acrid salt of gore, my lips burned with
wine of hate, the scalding drink of Cain. My tongue has known a
bitter taste I would not taste again.

What did you think, soldier? What did you think at war?
I thought, how strange we have not learned from wars that raged
before, except new ways for killing, new multiples of pain.
Is all the blood that men have shed but blood shed in vain?

What did you learn, soldier? What did you learn at war?
I learned we must learn sometime what was not learned before;
that victories won on battlefields are victories won in vain.
Unless in peace we kill the germs that breed new wars again.

What did you pray, soldier? What did you pray at war?
I prayed that we might do the thing we have not done before;
that we might mobilize for peace- nor mobilize in vain lest Christ
and man be forced to climb stark Calvary again.

G
ginnyrose

QUOTE:
A Soldier's War Experience

By Don Blanding

A Veteran of two wars wrote these Terrifying & Inspiring lines:

What did you see, soldier? What did you see at the war?
I saw such glory and horror as I've never seen before,
I saw men's hearts burned naked in red crucibles of pain;
I saw such Godlike courage as I'll never see again.

What did you hear, soldier? What did you hear at war?
I heard prayers on lips of men who had never prayed before;
I heard the men utter thoughts they will never think again;
I heard the sacred things they will not speak again.

What did you eat soldier? What did you eat at war?
I ate sour bread of fear, the acrid salt of gore, my lips burned with
wine of hate, the scalding drink of Cain. My tongue has known a
bitter taste I would not taste again.

What did you think, soldier? What did you think at war?
I thought, how strange we have not learned from wars that raged
before, except new ways for killing, new multiples of pain.
Is all the blood that men have shed but blood shed in vain?

What did you learn, soldier? What did you learn at war?
I learned we must learn sometime what was not learned before;
that victories won on battlefields are victories won in vain.
Unless in peace we kill the germs that breed new wars again.

What did you pray, soldier? What did you pray at war?
I prayed that we might do the thing we have not done before;
that we might mobilize for peace- nor mobilize in vain lest Christ
and man be forced to climb stark Calvary again.


Powerful. Thanks for sharing.

ginnyrose

S
sermonindex

By Wilfred Owen.

(c) 1917.

Note: The translation of the latin "Dulce et Decorum Est" is
"Sweet and fitting it is." The translation of "Pro patria mori" is
"To die for one's country."

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.

Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped, Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys--An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clusy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime ...
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum este
Pro patria mori


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Nonresistance and Nonparticipation in Civil Government

by Paul Horst

Tract 21E74
published by Rod and Staff Publishers, Inc. Crockett, KY 41413

On this subject we have many Scriptures. "Resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also . . ." "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you . . ." (Matthew 5:38-48). "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, saith the Lord" (Romans 12:19).

Also, in Ephesians 6:12 and 2 Corinthians 10:3-5 we are plainly told that our warfare is spiritual, not physical, and the weapons, although they are powerful and effective, are not of this world (carnal).

Finally, in Hebrews 11:13-16 we clearly see that the child of God has a heavenly country and therefore a heavenly citizenship which demands his first allegiance. Any nation on earth in which he dwells must realize that he is there as an alien, and that, although he will endeavor to be subject to their will where possible, he cannot be expected to participate in their affairs nor compromise his heavenly citizenship.

As we consider these truths and others, such as the Beatitudes, we come to see that nonresistance is not just a matter of what we will do or not do in certain situations, but rather a very spirit of meekness, humility, and love which possesses the Christian when he is truly born again. The spirit of resentment, revenge, and retaliation is crucified with self, and the new spirit becomes our way of life.

Not Nonviolence or Passive Resistance

This is not nonviolence or passive resistance, which, though not involving physical force, does yet manifest the spirit of resistance and demanding of our rights. Guy F. Hershberger, a Mennonite leader, has stated: "The [black's] leader, Martin Luther King, has successfully trained thousands in something which we have professed to believe for four hundred years - the way of nonviolence." This is clearly false, for the way of nonviolence includes many things foreign to the way of nonresistance, such as lobbying to influence legislation, demanding of our rights and privileges, refusal to obey the law even when obedience does not involve one in wrongdoing. Of course we can have no part in suppression or inequalities, but nonviolence is not the answer, nor is this what we have professed to believe for four hundred years, but rather we believe that which Jesus and the early church professed - nonresistance.

Not Only Abstinence From Vengeance

Neither is it only abstinence from personal vengeance, for the Old Testament already forbade this and made provision for orderly judgment and punishment (Deuteronomy 19). Therefore, we believe that Jesus intended that all vengeance is forbidden to the Christian. How could He have made it more clear? God says (1 Peter 2:21-24) that Jesus is our example and that He, when reviled, reviled not again; when He suffered, He threatened not, but committed Himself to God. Shall we, then who profess to follow Him, lift our hands or weapons to defend our lands, houses, families, or our own bodies? Shall we not rather leave all vengeance to God and those whom He shall use to execute His wrath? (See Romans 13).

Not An Endeavor to Bring About World Peace

The Bible leaves us no hope that men shall ever be able to bring about world peace through disarmament, political lobbying, and so forth, owing to the very nature of the world and the heart of man. Therefore, nonresistance is no futile attempt or fanciful dream to that end.


Neither is it an effort to "bury our heads" to the evil around us, but rather the result of a firm conviction that evil must be met by spiritual resistance; and must be overcome with good (Romans 12:21). It is true that God used His people in the past, as a nation, to punish sin; and provides for such punishment today through earthly government; and will in the future bring condemnation upon all the ungodly. Yet the people of God in this age are given the ministry of reconciliation rather than the ministry of retribution. "Love worketh no ill to his neighbour" (Romans 13:10).

That this spirit must fill all of life, we see in 1 Peter 3:8, 9, for here it is applied to the home and our closest relationships. Here it is that we are apt to be the most careless in exercising those virtues which rise out of love. Here, too, we see how to apply it to all situations, for if it is good for the home, as all agree, then it is good for neighbors, friends, strangers, and enemies.

Not Opposed to Government

Let it be said, however, that while we cannot participate in earthly governments, we are not opposed to them, but rather accept them as a necessary part of an evil, unregenerate society. We lend them our support in every Scriptural way (by prayer, financial support, and obedience wherever possible without conflict with the Word of God).

Some have supposed that the early church and the Anabaptists opposed participation in the government because of the nature of the governments under which they lived, but we have no reason to think they would have acted differently under any other form of government. The reasons which they gave and the Scriptures set forth in support of nonparticipation apply equally to dictatorships, kingdoms, and democracies. This is true in time of peace as well as during persecution. Jesus refused to be made king or judge (John 6:15; Luke 12:13, 14). Also, we notice that the New Testament never speaks to the government, nor to Christians as a part of the government (except in the case of the soldiers coming to John the Baptist, under the Old Covenant), but always to the Christians about the government. Thus, Romans 13 does not justify participation in government, as many think, but rather says "he" is God's servant "to thee . . . he beareth not the sword in vain . . . he is a revenger." But "ye must needs be subject . . . ye pay tribute . . . they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing" (justice, order, revenge).

Does a democratic form of government make every citizen a part of the government as some say? They say this to justify voting, saying "all are a part of the government anyhow, whether they vote or not, so we might as well use our opportunity to help control it." If this is true, then we become responsible for the actions of the government and the killing even though we refuse to fight. This we deny, maintaining, as God's people have done in the past, that we are not a part of the carnal government and want no part. Why then should we, by voting, acknowledge that which we so strenuously deny by our refusal to fight or hold public office?

No, brethren, but let us remember that we are now already living in the heavenly kingdom, our King is the Lord Jesus, and for that King we are willing to die!

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The Bible Doctrine of Nonresistance

By Harold S. Martin

A BIBLE HELPS BOOKLET No. 155

Nonresistance is a principle taught in the Scriptures. The word "nonresistance" is coined from the words of our Lord, when He said, "But I say unto you, that ye resist not evil, but whoso­ever smites thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." From the very origin of the Anabaptist Movement, nonresistance was one of the chief pillars of its doctrinal belief. The historian, Robert Proud, says that the Anabaptists "hold it not becoming those who follow Christ, to bear arms or fight, because they say their true Master has forbidden his disciples to resist evil."

Nonresistance is really a result of the doctrine of grace. Certainly those who have become recipients of God's grace In their own lives, should show the same grace toward their fellow­men. God displayed His grace toward us while we were yet sinners. He loved us when we were enemies, and just so we are to love our enemies, and to display grace toward those who per­secute us.

The principle of nonresistance must be practiced in times of peace as well as in times of war. The Christian must be careful not to take revenge. The Scriptures teach against retaliation with the tongue, and against suing at the law. The early Christians were commended because they took joyfully "the spoiling of their goods" Hebrews 10:34. They refused to resist evil; they didn't fight back; they knew that they had a heritage in Heaven that the spoilers couldn't touch.

1. PRINCIPLES OF THE DOCTRINE

Every teaching has some basic principles upon which it is built. We want to name three principles that underlie the doctrine of nonresistance.

(1) The kingdom of Christ is not of this world. There are two kingdoms of men in the world; those who have been regenerated by faith in Jesus Christ, and those who are unregenerate. Jesus says, "My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight" John 18:36. Christ's kingdom is made up of those who have experienced the saving grace of God in their lives. His kingdom is not supported by armies and maintained by taxes: Rather, it is a kingdom composed of persons who voluntarily believe in Jesus Christ, and seek to be­come like Him in their daily character and conduct. One who is a member of Christ's kingdom is instructed to bless his persecu­tors, and to pray for evildoers, and to love his enemies. And if you love a man, you are not going to put a bullet through him, nor ram a bayonet into his body, nor drop bombs on him. The standards of Christ's kingdom are different from the standards of the kingdoms of this world. One who claims to submit to Christ's kingship, will find that the army, the navy and the air force are not for him.

Because Christ's kingdom is not of this world, the early Christians refused to participate in military service. Tertullian says of the legions of the Roman army, "Not a Christian could be found among them." In the early days of Christianity, the Church said, "If they wish to be baptized in the Lord, let them cease from military service, or not be received." The historian, C. J. Cadoux says that no Christian after his conversion "ever thought of enlisting in the army, until nearly two hundred years after Christ." The early Christians recognized that Christ's kingdom is not of this world, and that His standards are much higher than the standards of the world-kingdoms-and therefore nonresistance was believed and practiced by the entire church.

(2) The spirit of Christ is not of this world. Jesus came into a Samaritan village one day and the Bible says that the folks there didn't receive Him. When James and John saw this, they wanted to call fire down from heaven to consume these people. But this was all contrary to the spirit of Christ, and it must have sorely grieved Him. Luke 9:55 says, "But (Jesus) turned and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of, for the Son of Man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save Them." Taking the lives of human beings is contrary to the spirit of Christ.

General Leslie McNair (in a New York Times article) described the attitudes and the spirit promoted in the armed services. He says, "Our soldiers must have a fighting spirit; if you call that hating enemies, then we must hate with every fiber of our being. We must lust for battle; we must scheme and plan night and day to kill; we must hit harder and harder; we must become tougher and tougher; the avowed purpose of the army is to make killers out of every soldier." Can you reconcile such an attitude with the teachings and the spirit of Jesus?

One young man who had been in the army during World War II, tells how one of his buddies in training was kind of softhearted. When they were training, they were to drive their bayonets into the stomachs of a dummy victim. This fellow was kind of slow and timid about the whole thing, and finally the officer lost his patience, swore at the young fellow, and ordered him to get up in front of that dummy and "cut out his guts." He reminded him that this was war, and not a Sunday School picnic, and that every man in the camp was there to learn how to kill Germans.

It's impossible to have the spirit of Christ within, and at the same time bear arms. The carnal sword and the spirit of Jesus do not point in the same direction.

(3) The methods of Christ are not of this world. Paul says in 2 Cor. 10:3, 4, "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds." Jesus endured much reviling and persecution when He was here on earth, and yet never once did He use carnal weapons for defense. And the same thing can be said for true Christians down through the centuries. They have won their battles by using the breastplate of righteousness, and the shield of faith, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God.

The Christian doesn't use carnal weapons, but this does not mean that he is helpless in the face of evil and unrighteousness. Take the weapon of prayer for example. When (during the perse­cutions of the early church) Peter was cast into prison, the Bible says, "Prayer was made without ceasing, of the Church, unto God for him." The people prayed. Here the power of prayer was pitted against the power of the armed might of the Roman Empire-and those who prayed won the battle! The iron gate opened, and Peter was set free. More things are wrought by prayer than this world dreams of.

Another powerful weapon used by the believer, is the practice of deeds of kindness. Jesus says, "Do good unto them that hate you." Paul puts it this way: "If your enemy hunger, feed him." We have a beautiful illustration of the victory of kindness over evil in 2 Kings 6. The Syrian army had been delivered into the hands of Israel through the intervention of the prophet Elisha. And when the king of Israel saw that the enemy had been delivered into his hand, he said to Elisha, "Shall I smite them?" And he said again, a second time, "Shall I smite them?" This may have been the most natural course of action, but Elisha said, "Thou shalt not smite them, (but) set bread and water before them that they may eat and drink, and go to their master." Elisha said, "Feed them and let them go." Show them kindness, he said. And that's what the king of Israel did. And you know, there's an interesting postscript to this story: 2 Kings 6:23 says, "So the bands of Syria came no more into the land of Israel."

The Christian's weapons are spiritual. He conquers with the power of the Cross. Menno Simons used to say, "Our fortress is Christ, our sword is the Word of God, our victory is faith in the Almighty. We let swords of iron and steel to those who consider human blood equal to swine's blood." The Christian has spiritual weapons.

These have been principles upon which the doctrine of non­resistance is based. The kingdom of Christ, the spirit of Christ and the methods of Christ are not of this world.

2. PROBLEMS OF THE DOCTRINE

Most every doctrine carries with it some related Matters that seem to be problems. We want to look primarily at the problem of Israel's practice in Old Testament days. The Old Testament fre­quently tells about the wars of Israel, and many of these wars were authorized and commanded by God. It's hard for the Christ­ian to reconcile this with the command to "resist not evil" in the New Testament. Jesus said the Scriptures cannot be broken, and they do not contradict themselves, and so the problem seems to be very real.

There are at least three things we must remember here:

(1) Israel was a nation of this world, while the Church is a spiritual nation not of this world. Israel was a nation just like any other nation, except that God had chosen her for a special purpose. The Israelites lived in a particular location on earth; they had boundaries to their possessions; they maintained a gov­ernment, with a capital city, a throne, a king, and a royal family. And to maintain this nation in the land, God permitted the use of force. But the Church is not such a nation. The Church is a people called out of darkness into the light of the Gospel, from every land and every nation. There's no particular geographical location; there are no boundaries to maintain; there's no capital city; there's no regal throne. Israel was a nation; the Church is not such a nation.

(2) Israel was not a regenerated people, while the Church is composed of those who are regenerate. Romans 8:3,4 says, "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh; that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Israel could not perform the righteousness of the law, for she walked after the flesh. But Christians have been re­generated, and thus are equipped for a new kind of life, and they are called upon to follow a much higher standard than the Old Testament law.

(3) Israel operated under the dispensation of law, while the Church is living during the dispensation of grace. Jesus says, "Ye have heard that it was said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, but I say unto you, that ye resist not evil, but if any man shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." This is an extension that Christ Himself made. He participated in giving the Old Testament law, and certainly He has the right to broaden it. Someone says, "But God never changes, and if God doesn't change, then He can't approve war in the Old Testament, and condemn it in the New Testament." But this is a faulty argu­ment. It's true that God's character never changes, but His methods do change from time to time, from age to age, from dispensa­tion to dispensation. The relationship between the Old and New Testaments is a study that requires more space than we will take here, but remember that the truths of the Old Testa­ment receive a new and deeper significance in the New Tes­tament, in light of Calvary and Pentecost. The New Testament is the Christian's final authority for faith and conduct. If we are to have a true understanding of the will of God, we must always accept the New Testament interpretation of the Old Testament.

Some folks have a problem accepting the doctrine of non­resistance, however, because of a few statements Jesus made, as recorded in the New Testament.

Jesus said, for example, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword." But here the context clearly shows that the word "sword" is a figurative word, which indicates the division and persecution and misunderstand­ing that will arise in families and communities when there are those members of the family or community who follow Jesus. The parallel reference in Luke 12:51 says, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you nay, but rather division; for from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided; three against two, and two against three." Sometimes Christians will find even members of their own families turning against them.

In another place, Jesus says "He that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip. And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." Luke 22:36. Jesus spoke these words just before He went into the Garden to pray. And just a little later, when the crowd had gathered to take Jesus, Peter used the sword. He smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his ear. But Jesus rebuked him for using the sword, and then He said to him, "All that take the sword shall perish by it." And then Jesus graciously restored the servant's ear. Whatever else Jesus meant by the words, "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one," He certainly did not mean that the dis­ciples were free to injure others with the sword. A dagger such as the disciples carried, was often used to cut wood and to slay animals for food.

There are other problems associated with the doctrine of non­resistance, but the basic principles upon which the doctrine is built, are clear. Each one of the problems that sometimes is asso­ciated with the doctrine, is really only a seeming contradiction.

3. PROTECTIONS FOR THE DOCTRINE

There are always some who try and make a teaching mean something that it was never intended to mean. For the purpose of safeguarding the doctrine of nonresistance, several things should be pointed out.

(1) War is permitted for civil government. Jesus said, "If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight." Jesus recognized that the very nature of the kingdoms of this world, de­mands that they be defended with armed might. The hardness and greed of unconverted human hearts, sometimes seem to under­stand nothing but the language of force. The sons of God can live a life of love for their enemies, but the sons of men are liv­ing under the rule of Satan, and are governed by the law of force. Paul says of the state official (in Romans 13), "He beareth not the sword in vain; for he is a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." The masses of this world will not allow God's Word to control their lives, and therefore they must be held in control by the sword. The state has the authority to punish; it has the right to carry the sword; if there had been no civil auth­ority, only anarchy and chaos would exist, because of the wick­edness of human hearts. Both the Old Testament and the New Testament recognize the authority of the state to maintain order by the use of force. And because we recognize this permission in the Scriptures (for governments to use the sword), we cannot (according to modern use of the term) be called "pacifists." Pacifism covers many types of opposition to warfare. It is Satan's counterfeit for the doctrine of nonresistance. True Christians have never advocated the doctrines of present day pacifism. The pacifist aims to establish a better world by eliminating war; he attempts to bring peace and harmony among the unregenerate nations of earth, by working through political influence; his primary mistake lay in the fact that he believes in the innate goodness of man. One paci­fist group told John F. Kennedy, "We believe there is a divine power in man, that can save the world from war and destruc­tion." But this contradicts the teaching of our Lord when he says, "For from within, out of the heart of man, proceed murders and wickedness" Mark 7:20.

The peace-emphasis promoted by most leaders within the churches of America today, is not the doctrine of nonresistance taught in the Bible. Nonresistance describes the faith and life of those who accept the Scriptures as the revealed will of God, and who cannot participate in warfare because their Lord forbids it. He teaches the law of love. Pacifism, on the other hand, is something different. Roland Bainton says that modern pacifism (as promoted by most civil and religious leaders today), is not based so much on Christian principles, as it is on a mere desire for survival. Many of our leaders object to war, not because of loyalty to Christ and the Scriptures, but because they have a fear of death and destruction in this awful atomic age.

(2) Wars will continue until the end. The Bible does not teach that a time will come during this age, when wars will cease. Daniel 9:26 says literally, "Even unto the time of the end, wars and Desolations are determined." Jesus, when describing the closing days of this age, says there shall be "wars and rumors of wars". In the closing days of this age, the armies of the world, under the lead­ership of the Antichrist, will march against Jerusalem for one final burst of rage against God and His people, and there they shall utterly perish (Joel 3:9-12). The Bible teaches that the nations of the world will be universally armed (not disarmed), as we approach the close of this age.

Our early Anabaptist forefathers were not optimistic about the prospects of peace for this age. Harold S. Bender says that they "saw the whole of history (from the fall of the first Adam, down to the Second Coming of Christ), as a great battle between God and His enemies. There was no humanistic vision of getting rid of war in history." The Christian does not expect that economic justice and political cooperation are going to be ushered in by efforts of unrighteous men. Our hope for changing the world, lies in the coming of Christ, who will "judge among the nations," and usher in a kingdom of peace. In the meantime, the Christian obeys his government, pays his taxes, and respects governmental leaders. And only if the government expressly commands us to do that which God has forbidden, only then do we follow the example of Peter and John, when they said, "We ought to obey God rather than men."

War is a terrible thing. One of the survivors of the atomic blast at Hiroshima describes what she saw. She says, "All the houses were demolished; the crumbled walls stretched for many, many miles; people rushed out from the center of impact; their bodies were burned; their skin was hanging down like rags; their faces were swollen to twice their normal size; people were cry­ing aloud with pain." She says, "I saw someone walking, dragging something along. To my surprise it was his own intestines. His stomach was ripped open, and he was dragging it along as he walked without knowing what he was doing." She continues, "My oldest daughter had only two slight wounds, but a month after the bombing, she died from radiation." A soldier who witnessed the air raids in Germany says he saw people coming out of their shelters-insane, wandering about, running away, not knowing where to go. Thousands were killed. Still others died of disease and cold and starvation." No one can ever measure the suffering and misery and heartaches that have resulted from war. And on the Judg­ment Day, God will hardly look down upon the soldier's bloody hands, and say, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant."

To serve as a conscientious objector to war may bring ridicule from friends, but one who practices nonresistance in life, can stand before God with clean hands, unstained by human blood. And always remember that "a conscience void of offense before God and man," is a greater reward than any human decor­ation ever offered for bravery on the battlefield. Be grateful to God if your government has provided for alternative service of a constructive nature.

Additional copies of this article sent free on request. Ask for our sample packet of Bible Helps,

BIBLE HELPS

Robert Lehigh, Editor

P. O. Box 391
Hanover, Pa. 17331 U.S.A.

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MilitaryTimes.com Community Editor

Richardson pfc. ruled conscientious objector

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ANCHORAGE, Alaska — A federal judge has ordered that a Fort Richardson soldier be granted conscientious objector status and an honorable discharge.

The decision by U.S. District Judge John Sedwick supersedes the Army’s decision last year to deny Pfc. Michael Barnes’ request. Barnes had told the Army that he experienced a religious awakening in Iraq two years ago that left him opposed to war in any form.

Sedwick said military investigators failed to provide “a basis in fact” to support their contention that Barnes’ religious objections to war were insincere.

Sedwick considered testimony from Barnes, as well as a chaplain, a psychiatrist and fellow soldiers in overturning the Army’s decision.

Barnes, a 26-year-old Portland, Ore., native, said Monday in a statement released by his lawyer that he was thankful to the federal courts in Anchorage for finding that his request was based on “my sincere belief as a Christian.”

Barnes enlisted in the Army for five years in March 2005 with the stated goal of “defending freedom and helping other people in countries no one else would help.”

In a 16-page ruling, the judge noted evidence of how Barnes’ faith grew stronger after he arrived in Iraq in September 2006. Soldiers in his unit testified that he became increasingly withdrawn, devoting much of his spare time to reading the Bible.

“I have been trying to justify being a soldier and finding a way to do so while still being a Christian, because that is what I wanted to do since I was a kid,” Barnes wrote in his request for conscientious objector status in December 2006.

“But I can no longer justify spending my short time in this world participating in or supporting war. ... I must try to save souls, not help take them. I fear not for my life, but for my soul.”

Barnes remained in Iraq with the 4th Airborne Brigade Combat Team through the duration of the unit’s 15-month deployment. The brigade returned to Anchorage last November. He is now stationed in the Lower 48.


Article: http://www.militarytimes.com/news/20...jector_092308/

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ginnyrose

“But I can no longer justify spending my short time in this world participating in or supporting war. ... I must try to save souls, not help take them. I fear not for my life, but for my soul.”

Ahhh, this is the essence of the Christian's duty to his/her fellowmen.

A couple years ago we visited with a man who developed a similar conviction except he was a Naval officer stationed in the Pentagon. When the Holy Spirit convicted him and he shared it with his fellow officers they did not argue with him....What made this officer's testimony more impressive is that he was scheduled to retire in six months with benefits due a career officer. But the LORD called him to retire now! And he obeyed. Sacrifice? I would think so. Don't you?

Thanks for sharing this report.

ginnyrose

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They That Take The Sword Shall Perish With The Sword

By Gilbert Beebe (1800 – 1881)

“Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword” Matthew 26:52

The perfect security and perpetuity of the Kingdom of Christ upon its own basis, independently of the powers of this world, is a delightful consideration to the enlightened children of God. No carnal weapons are required to repel the foes of God and truth, for no weapon that is formed against Zion can prosper.


“Salvation (not swords nor spears, but the salvation of our God) will God appoint for walls and bulwarks.” Not only are they not required or needed, but they are most positively forbidden. All our trust and reliance for protection and safety must be in God. He is himself a wall of fire round about his people, and the glory in their midst. In this particular is the church of God manifestly distinguished from all anti-Christian churches or religious organizations. In all ages, worldly religion has relied on worldly support and worldly protections. At this very day there is a mighty howling among the shepherds of anti-Christ, and those religious denominations who have been the principal promoters of the dreadful scenes of carnage which has just swept over our country, desolating what was the fairest portion of the earth, slaughtering hundreds of thousands of our fellow-men, and both at the North and the South are now appealing to the worst passions of men to aid in procuring from the secular powers a law for the suppression of those religious orders which they deem antagonistic to their interests, pleading that their religious establishments are in danger by reason of the Roman Catholics, and all others who will not pander to them.

They staining the earth with a crimson tide ask, and even demand that the sword of state shall be drawn for the suppression of those whom they proscribe as heterodox, and for their own defense. They take the sword, rely upon the sword, and with sword shall they perish. But it is not so with the church of the living God.

Not only has the cause of God and his church always been sustained without aid or protection of human governments, but in opposition to all the powers of earth and hell, and always in such a manner as to clearly show that God is himself the strength of Israel, and the Savior thereof in the time of trouble.

His name is their strong tower, and in his pavilion where he has hidden them they have perfect safety. We perfectly agree with brother Purington that Christians are forbidden to use carnal weapons for the defense of the kingdom of God, which being “not of this world,” cannot be sustained by the power of this world. But the question arises, and perhaps was intended by “E. H.,“Are Christians allowed, by the laws of Christ, to use the sword, or carnal weapons, in any case, or under any circumstances whatever?”

The more we have reflected upon this subject, the deeper our convictions have become that the precepts, as well as the spirit of Christ in his saints, forbid it. Every essential requisite for a Christian disqualifies him for carnal warfare. To be a disciple of the meek and lowly Lamb of God, we must have his spirit and temper; and except we have it we cannot be his disciple. While to fit men for carnal warfare they must be bold, daring, defiant, aspiring, and unpitying. To be a disciple of Christ we must love our enemies, do good to them who despitefully use and persecute us; but to be a soldier in carnal warfare, we are forbidden to sympathize with our enemies, or to give them aid or comfort, on pain of penalties provided in the laws of human warfare.

The Christian then, to be a soldier in carnal warfare, must abandon the laws of Christ and submit to the military code; must disobey the commands of Christ, and obey the opposite commands of military chieftains. How truly are we told, “No man can serve two masters.” How can we possibly obey both when one commands us to kill, and the other forbids us to kill? When one commands us to love, pray for, and do good to our enemies, and the other commands us to fight, rob, harass and destroy them?

The example of Christ is given as an infallible guide to all this children, and in that example he went about doing good to all classes of men, friends and foes; healing the sick, feeding the hungry, and showing compassion to all who were in distress; in all his walks he was holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners, and he commands his disciples to follow him.

And he says, “Except a man deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me, he cannot be my disciple.”

The recruiting officers of Caesar would reject such men as really and truly follow Christ as unfit for a space in their army. What do they want of men who love their enemies, or who will not kill, or rob, or spoil their enemies? But while the meek, lowly, loving, sympathizing Christian would be rejected, they would greatly prefer carnal professors and graceless hypocrites, who go in the way of Cain, whose feet are swift to shed blood, and before whose eyes there is no fear of God, and of whom it is said, Misery and destruction are in all their ways. Such are the men for carnal warfare; those who are led by the spirit, temper and example of him who was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth. But those who strictly follow him who came not to destroy mens’ lives, but so save them, would only be in the way in earthly warfare.

But it is urged that Christians are to “be subject to the powers that be, and to obey those who are in authority over them.”

This is very true, but at the same time they are told that there is no power, or authority but that which is of God. Usurpation is not legitimate power, and usurpers have in reality no authority to enjoin on the subjects of Christ’s government anything that Christ has forbidden; for Christ is himself the only blessed potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords.

In everything wherein God has invested kings, governors, rulers or judges of the earth with power or authority over the citizens of the world, the Christian is, by the laws and commandments of Christ, required to honor and obey them, to that extent, but no further.

Whether it be right for Christians to obey men rather than God, judge ye. If Caesar commands us to kill, and God commands us, saying, “Thou shalt not kill,” which is to be obeyed? Or if rulers of the earth forbid the minsters of Christ, as in the case of Peter and John in Acts 5:29, to preach in the name of Christ, and God has commanded them to preach, is it hard to determine which is the higher power, or which is to be obeyed?

It is said that some Christians have been compelled to take up arms, and to slaughter their fellow men. This may be so; but we do not know of a case in which a Christian, how as conscientiously opposed to carnal warfare, viewing it a violation of the law of Christ, who has made his appeal in solemn prayer to God for deliverance, and has not been delivered. But even if it were so, if the Christians were actuated by the same mind which was evinced by the martyrs of former times, would they not sooner suffer death themselves than yield to violate the law of Christ by killing their fellow men?

Let the church of God take her position as a city set upon a hill, whose light cannot be hidden; and let it be known that come life, or come death, her members cannot be forced to shed the blood, or destroy the property of their fellow men under any circumstances whatever, then we doubt whether the governments of the world would have use for such soldiers as they would make. But should they persist, we might look for a divine interposition, or if brought to the test, God would give us grace to bear all the consequences. it is not strange, as the case now stands, that the governments of the earth should regard the conscientious scruples of Christians as unimportant and trifling.

For while nearly all the anti-Christian orders of religionists not only sanction, but absolutely occupy a leading position in all the wars that agitate the world, the church has been slow, very slow indeed, to declare her position and say to the world that she will, under no circumstance, stain her hands with blood. But instead of holding this position, has not the church been faulty in withholding her light upon this subject; and have not, some at least of the members voluntarily entered the field of carnage, or advocated the shedding of blood; and when the matter has been submitted to the voice or vote of the people, have not some, even of the members of the church of God, the professed disciples and followers of the Prince of Peace, given their voice, their vote, and the full measure of their influence for war, to the bitter end?

How is this to be reconciled with the command of God to “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord?”

There are many examples given of Christ and his apostles, and the primitive saints, resisting evil even unto the death, striving against sin, but in all cases refusing the use of carnal weapons. But in what part of the sacred volume have we an account of Paul, applying to Nero for a Major or Brigadier General’s commission, or Peter asking for and army contract, or even of the loving John preaching war sermons, and making war speeches to induce the disciples of the Lamb to enter the army?

Even if we had such examples left on record, we are forbidden to follow them; for we are only to follow even the apostles as far as they followed Christ. And Christ, when he was reviled, reviled not again; and he has commanded his disciples to “Avenge not themselves; to resist not evil with evil.”

If smitten on one cheek, to turn the other cheek also to the smiter, and to remember the word of instruction, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.”

If God thus claims the sole right of arbitration and retribution, and if he has as positively forbidden us to avenge ourselves, is it not irreverent and presumptuous for us to usurp the ministration of wrath and vengeance in his stead? Let those who know no God and therefore fear him not indulge their cruel passions; but, Christians forbear! Let not the sun go down on your wrath.

Appeal not to the sword, lest by the sword ye perish!

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C
chapel

There are many examples given of Christ and his apostles, and the primitive saints, resisting evil even unto the death, striving against sin, but in all cases refusing the use of carnal weapons. But in what part of the sacred volume have we an account of Paul, applying to Nero for a Major or Brigadier General’s commission, or Peter asking for and army contract, or even of the loving John preaching war sermons, and making war speeches to induce the disciples of the Lamb to enter the army?

Even if we had such examples left on record, we are forbidden to follow them; for we are only to follow even the apostles as far as they followed Christ. And Christ, when he was reviled, reviled not again; and he has commanded his disciples to “Avenge not themselves; to resist not evil with evil.”

If smitten on one cheek, to turn the other cheek also to the smiter, and to remember the word of instruction, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.”

If God thus claims the sole right of arbitration and retribution, and if he has as positively forbidden us to avenge ourselves, is it not irreverent and presumptuous for us to usurp the ministration of wrath and vengeance in his stead? Let those who know no God and therefore fear him not indulge their cruel passions; but, Christians forbear! Let not the sun go down on your wrath.

Appeal not to the sword, lest by the sword ye perish!

Gilbert Beebe

C
chapel

The Puritans' "Christian" Agenda?

One of the opinions most persistently and widely held among American evangelicals today is that America had essentially Christian origins. They rest heavily on an appeal to the Puritan heritage as the most influential Reformation tradition shaping American culture. If it were shown that the Puritans who settled America did not establish truly Christian cultural principles that were in some important ways perpetuated, then a strong suspicion might be raised that the entire case for a now-lost Christian America rests on rather nebulous foundations. (See: The Search for Christian America, p. 28.)

The fact is, the Puritans were the forerunners of today's Kingdom/Dominion/Reconstructionist teaching. The Puritans believed that they were carrying to America true Christianity as decreed by God, especially as written in the Old Testament. They believed too that they were on a divine mission to America, a place specially appointed by God to be the "New Israel," a theocratic "city upon a hill."

John Winthrop, the first governor of Massachusetts Bay, assumed that he could transfer the principles of nationhood found in ancient Israel to the Massachusetts Bay Company with no need for explanation. This led the Puritans to interpret Scripture in an ultimately pretentious way that gave their own state and society the exalted status of a New Israel. Old Testament law was directly, if not exclusively, incorporated into the legal systems of New England. The Massachusetts "Body of Liberties" of 1641 stated that "if any man after legal conviction shall have or worship any other god, but the lord god, he shall be put to death." Death was also prescribed for witchcraft, blasphemy, murder, sodomy, homosexuality, adultery, and kidnapping. Old Testament texts were copied directly into the New England law books. The most notorious cases of major miscarriage of justice in New England were the Salem witchcraft executions. (See: The Search for Christian America, pp. 34-35.)

The Puritans viewed themselves as God's special people, replacing national Israel. Nowhere do the dangers of this assumption become more clear than in the Puritans' treatment of the native Americans. Since the Puritans considered themselves God's chosen people, they concluded that they had the right to take the land from the heathen Indians. The American Indians were the "new Canaanites" in America's "Promised Land." The fruit of Puritan theology was brutal. They saw their mission as convert these "Canaanites" to Christianity; failing that, it was acceptable to slaughter them in the name of Christ.

For example, the Puritan massacres of the Pequot Indian tribe on May 26, 1637, and again on July 14, 1637, were deemed by the Puritans to be directed by God -- Captain John Mason declared, "God laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies" (Segal and Stinenback, Puritans, Indians, and Manifest Destiny, pp. 111-112, 134-135).

Converting the pagans for God was acceptable to the Puritans, but killing the pagans for the Lord was also acceptable!

Defenders of the Puritans claim that it was the hostility of the Pequots that led to their unfortunate demise. But the Pequots were one of the most tranquil tribes in New England. History reveals that their "hostility" did not manifest itself until they were hunted like animals. For argument sake, let's say that the Pequots were the instigators of hostilities, virtual savages if you will (which they were not). Does this justify hunting them down, slaughtering the men, women, and children in their sleep, and then doing it again six weeks later to finish the job!? (Not exactly "battlefield" victories!) Moreover, the Puritans claimed it was in obedience to God that these pagans were slaughtered!

Here the reasoning of the Puritans defies logic and a sense of common decency, let alone Christian principles. Captain John Underhill also wrote of the Pequot slaughter: "Sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents ... We have sufficient light from the Word of God for our proceedings." What an incredible testimony for one claiming to be a Christian!

There is a book titled NEW ENGLAND FRONTIER: Puritans and Indians 1620-1675 by Alden T. Vaughan. It was originally published in 1965 (Little Brown & Company, Boston/Toronto), and revised as recently as 1995. Vaughan, an admitted friend of the Puritan colony, makes a well documented case for the efforts of the Pilgrims (Separatists) and early Puritans to win the Indians to Christ. The book contains three chapters detailing the Puritans successful missionary endeavors during those early years.
For example, the first Bible printed in the Western world was the Indian Algonquin Scripture. Harvard University (1636) was founded not only to train whites to become ministers of the Gospel, but there was also for a time a training program for young Indian men to minister to their people. At least six Boston area communities, thriving today, were started by Christian Indians. The famous island, Martha's Vineyard, once was the site of Indian Christian congregations through the missionary endeavors of the Mayhew family. Dartmouth University had its beginning through the efforts of a Connecticut Puritan to train Indian young men to preach the Gospel.

But Vaughan's book also reveals just how brutal the Puritans were in their dealings with the Indians -- specifically, Chapter V, "The Pequot War, 1637." What is amazing about the account in this chapter is the frankness with which the author recounts the events and the Puritans part in them. The carnage and the Puritan justification for participation therein is quite revealing -- self-defense is one thing, but outright purposeful slaughter is, to say the least, questionable Christian behavior (from 1965 edition):

(1) pp. 127-128 -- The so-called Christian response of "merciless revenge" was carried out "vigorously" by Captain John Endicott --

"Dissatisfied by the paucity of Indian casualties, the English soldiers heartlessly 'destroyed some of their dogs instead of men.'";

(2) pp. 132, 141 -- The Puritans demanded and accepted, as signs of loyalty and sincerity from allied Indian tribes, the body parts of their common enemies (see also p. 142, where the Puritans viewed these indications of loyalty as a sign from God and an answer to prayer);

(3) p. 143 -- When embarking on an expedition of Indian hunting, the Puritans entreated the Lord to direct them in their pillage and slaughter;

(4) p. 136 -- Concerning the Indians, the Puritans viewed themselves as the enforcers of "law and order" due to their view of themselves as God's "New World Zion," a reconstructionist view of history, to say the least (see also p. 138, where the Indians are viewed as "Satan's horde," thus justifying their slaughter);

(5) p. 141 -- The Puritans were not content to merely kill their perceived enemies; they saw fit to murder and savagely mutilate them -- they literally "tore him [a captured Pequot] limb from limb. Captain Underhill ended the victim's agony with a pistol shot. The body was then roasted and eaten by the Mohegans.";

(6) pp. 144-145 -- In one of the Pequot massaquers of 1637, not only was the Indian village set on fire, those men, women, and children not fortunate enough to be burned to death were gunned down as they tried to escape the flames. Captain Mason "gave full credit to God" for the slaughter, while Captain Underhill claimed the Pequots had sinned against God and man, and thus, "We had sufficient light from the word of God for our proceedings"!

(7) p. 148 -- Not content to take prisoners, the Puritans "exterminate[d] the remnant"; those they were unable to capture themselves, they delegated the killing to civilians, requiring the heads of the targeted Indians as evidence of their deaths (see also p. 149);

(8) p. 150 -- Pequots not slaughtered were taken captive and sold into slavery to friendly Indian tribes.

Some teach that one cannot know the motives of the Puritans nor judge their hearts. But the Puritan's own words and actions are devastating to their claims of practicing Biblical Christianity. This we can judge (John 7:24). The Bible is clear that one's actions are an indication of heart condition. It is difficult to imagine what could be going on in the hearts of a professing Christian people that would drive them to murder other human beings, and then claim that God directed them to do it!

The actions of the Puritans toward the Indians are an excellent indication of how reconstructionist eschatology will lead one into ungodly behavior -- one's eschatology will always affect one's worldview.

The Puritans misguided view of God's calling for them led them into a worldview alien to that of the apostle Paul's -- i.e., to be sojourners and peacemakers.

Biblical Discernment Ministries - 6/98

L
Leo_Grace

Were these men conquering and governing in faith and obedience to God?

Converting the pagans for God was acceptable to the Puritans, but killing the pagans for the Lord was also acceptable!

Obviously not. True Christians, even those who do not subscribe to the concept of non-resistance follow the command to love others as ourselves.

The Puritans misguided view of God's calling for them led them into a worldview alien to that of the apostle Paul's

Any misguided view of God's Word will lead to disaster, even the most well-intentioned ideas are wrong when God's Word is bent to fit the idea instead of the idea conforming to God's Word.

C
chapel

Thank You Brother Leo for your kind response; I do believe we are very close in what we believe.

Quote:

“This was written by Gilbert Beebe ( Autobiography) founder and publisher of the “Sign of the Times”, and was included in the August, 1865 edition. He wrote this at the end of the Civil War.

From Mountain Retreat:

They That Take The Sword Shall Perish With The Sword

By Gilbert Beebe (1800 – 1881)

“Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword” Matthew 26:52

The perfect security and perpetuity of the Kingdom of Christ upon its own basis, independently of the powers of this world, is a delightful consideration to the enlightened children of God. No carnal weapons are required to repel the foes of God and truth, for no weapon that is formed against Zion can prosper.


“Salvation (not swords nor spears, but the salvation of our God) will God appoint for walls and bulwarks.” Not only are they not required or needed, but they are most positively forbidden. All our trust and reliance for protection and safety must be in God. He is himself a wall of fire round about his people, and the glory in their midst. In this particular is the church of God manifestly distinguished from all anti-Christian churches or religious organizations. In all ages, worldly religion has relied on worldly support and worldly protections. At this very day there is a mighty howling among the shepherds of anti-Christ, and those religious denominations who have been the principal promoters of the dreadful scenes of carnage which has just swept over our country, desolating what was the fairest portion of the earth, slaughtering hundreds of thousands of our fellow-men, and both at the North and the South are now appealing to the worst passions of men to aid in procuring from the secular powers a law for the suppression of those religious orders which they deem antagonistic to their interests, pleading that their religious establishments are in danger by reason of the Roman Catholics, and all others who will not pander to them.

They staining the earth with a crimson tide ask, and even demand that the sword of state shall be drawn for the suppression of those whom they proscribe as heterodox, and for their own defense. They take the sword, rely upon the sword, and with sword shall they perish. But it is not so with the church of the living God.

Not only has the cause of God and his church always been sustained without aid or protection of human governments, but in opposition to all the powers of earth and hell, and always in such a manner as to clearly show that God is himself the strength of Israel, and the Savior thereof in the time of trouble.

His name is their strong tower, and in his pavilion where he has hidden them they have perfect safety. We perfectly agree with brother Purington that Christians are forbidden to use carnal weapons for the defense of the kingdom of God, which being “not of this world,” cannot be sustained by the power of this world. But the question arises, and perhaps was intended by “E. H.,“Are Christians allowed, by the laws of Christ, to use the sword, or carnal weapons, in any case, or under any circumstances whatever?”

The more we have reflected upon this subject, the deeper our convictions have become that the precepts, as well as the spirit of Christ in his saints, forbid it. Every essential requisite for a Christian disqualifies him for carnal warfare. To be a disciple of the meek and lowly Lamb of God, we must have his spirit and temper; and except we have it we cannot be his disciple. While to fit men for carnal warfare they must be bold, daring, defiant, aspiring, and unpitying. To be a disciple of Christ we must love our enemies, do good to them who despitefully use and persecute us; but to be a soldier in carnal warfare, we are forbidden to sympathize with our enemies, or to give them aid or comfort, on pain of penalties provided in the laws of human warfare.

The Christian then, to be a soldier in carnal warfare, must abandon the laws of Christ and submit to the military code; must disobey the commands of Christ, and obey the opposite commands of military chieftains. How truly are we told, “No man can serve two masters.” How can we possibly obey both when one commands us to kill, and the other forbids us to kill? When one commands us to love, pray for, and do good to our enemies, and the other commands us to fight, rob, harass and destroy them?

The example of Christ is given as an infallible guide to all this children, and in that example he went about doing good to all classes of men, friends and foes; healing the sick, feeding the hungry, and showing compassion to all who were in distress; in all his walks he was holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners, and he commands his disciples to follow him.

And he says, “Except a man deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me, he cannot be my disciple.”

End of quote.
________________________________

To ease your mind, we do believe in the Spiritual armour of God and do put it to full use.

Ephes. 6:10-20
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. [11] Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. [13] Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. [14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; [15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; [16] Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. [17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: [18] Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; [19] And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, [20] For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

The armour and weapons of God are not carnal but are totally effective to pull down the strongholds of the enemy. Thus we have no use for the carnal weapons of man.

May we simply trust in the strength, power, and love of the Lord and we can direct our energies to loving one another as our Lord has loved us.

Lord Bless

lee

C
ChrisJD

Were these men conquering and governing in faith and obedience to God?


Hi everyone, I think that this is a fair question to ask about what was shared. The things that were described there are unimaginable and so grivous to be associated with Christianity.


And yet, I wonder too, why, we would ask this question, and could it be asked of others, that have also goverened over peoples and claimed to have faith in God?


If anyone would be remembered for having conqoured and governed in faith to God it would be King David, and yet, David also said this:

"The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men [i]must be[/i] just, ruling in the fear of God. And [i]he shall be[/i] as the light of the morning, [i]when[/i] the sun riseth, [i]even[/i] a morning without clouds; [i]as[/i] the tender grass [i]springing[/i] out of the earth by clear shining after rain. Although my house [i]be[/i] not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all [i]things[/i], and sure: for [i]this is[/i] all my salvation, and all [i]my[/i] desire, although he make [i]it[/i] not to grow."


- 2Samuel 23:3-5(KJV)

[i]Although my house be not so with God[/i]


I think that there can be value in retelling the terrible sins and tragedies of the past; doesn't the Bible give us so many examples of how we have failed and gone wrong in the past?

But too, I wonder how it would have gone for the Apostle Paul, if he should have often been reminding his countrymen of their ancestor's part in nearly obliterating his own tribe, the tribe of Benjamin(see Judges 20-21)?

I'm not sure many people beleive that America has had a "Christian foundation" because every one of it's earliest founders always and in every way did what was right before God. In the case of what was posted here before(if it was a fair and accurate history), it was'nt even close!

But then, I think that Dr King was right in saying:


"I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."


Why, I suppose that it was the same for someone like the Quaker Abolitionist John Woolman, who, from what I read, had to convince even the peacefull Quakers to abandon the grotesqe practice of slavery.

C
chapel

“This was written by Gilbert Beebe ( Autobiography) founder and publisher of the “Sign of the Times”, and was included in the August, 1865 edition. He wrote this at the end of the Civil War.

From Mountain Retreat:


My Kingdom is Not of This World

By Elder Gilbert Beebe (1800-1881)

Reproduced from Signs of the Times, November 1, 1845

Thus spake the Son of God when mantled in the flesh. He stood arraigned at the bar of Pilate; and when, if there had been anything in the elements of this world which could contribute to the defense or benefit of His kingdom, they must have been called into action. All the interests of the kingdom which He claimed as His own, centered in Him, and the destiny of the kingdom, for weal or woe, was at that important moment hinged upon the result of what was at that time progressing.

None of the princes of this world knew Him; He had not made a revelation of what He was, even to those who sat empowered to deliver Him to death. He had not labored in His ministry to make Himself familiar to the crowned heads of the nations of the earth. He had proposed no treaties or terms of alliance with them; not had He called on them, or any of them, to propose terms for His acceptance; for the nature of His kingdom was so radically different from every kingdom under heaven, that it was not possible that an alliance could be entered into that could subserve the true interests of either party. His kingdom truly was destined to encounter the violence, enmity, wrath, strife, and persecution of kingdoms of men, both in her King and in the subjects of her government.

The powers which should oppose Him in person and in His people were not such as He was compelled to succumb to for what of power to resist, for He reminded Pilate that he would not have had any power, if it had not been given him; and on another occasion He declared that He was able to call on His Father, who would instantly honor His requisition for more than twelve legions of angels--a force sufficient to overwhelm all earthly powers engaged against Him; but how, in that case, could the Scriptures be fulfilled? Not an intimation was made of raising up an earthly force to resist the assaults of the enemies of His kingdom, even if a force had been requisite, He would have called from the heavenly world.

We may well conclude, that if in that most trying hour, when His holy soul was pressed within Him, He had nothing to ask of the rulers of this world, there never could a period arrive when the powers of earthly princes should be required to defend Him or His cause. To those who tempted Him with their questions concerning tribute money, He said, Render unto Caesar the things which belong to Caesar, and unto God the things which belong to God; thus clearly intimating that the governments were not only distinct from each other, but that the distinction should be perpetual; and that the requisitions of Caesar, or of the governments of the nations, had to do with men as citizens of the world, and that their obligation to earthly magistrates and rulers was not relaxed nor abolished by the administration of His laws. And again, that the things of God were not to be rendered to Caesar, but unto God.

Things of a civil nature, relating to the natural rights of men, were to be settled by God's own providential appointment, by human legislation; but the things aside from a respect for and obedience to earthly potentates, in natural matters, belonging to God, such as matters of faith, of conscience, of religion, were not things over which the kings of the earth had any supervision or power, and things in which His subjects were not at liberty under any circumstances, to submit to the dictation or legislation of any other than God Himself.

The kingdom of Jesus is not of this world. In its origin, elements, provisions, policy, protection, government, or destiny. Its origin is heaven-- it is a heavenly kingdom. The King is the Lord from heaven; He said, "I proceeded forth and came out from the Father;" and again, "What and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up where He was before," etc. The subjects of his kingdom are of the same origin, for "Both he sanctifies, and they that are sanctified, are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren" and he said, "Thine they were and thou gavest them me." "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world." etc.

The laws for the regulation of this heavenly kingdom are not of earthly enactment. Christ the anointed of the Father, is the sole Legislator, and he, by His Spirit, writes his law upon, and sets it up in the hearts of his children. The elements, or component parts, viewed separately or collectively, are all of God, and every plant that the heavenly Father has not planted shall be rooted up.

The provision on which this kingdom is sustained, were given us in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world, and being prior to, could not be of the world. Grace, mercy, peace, righteousness, and truth, with all things else necessary for the commandment of the everlasting and unchanging decree of God, were treasured up in the Head of the church before the world began; and all the provisions of his spiritual house on which His poor are fed; were brought down from the abounding and overflowing fountain from which every good and perfect gift comes. And he will abundantly bless her provisions and fill her with bread.

The policy of this kingdom is from above. "For our conversation is in heaven," and it is therefore as becomes the children of God. All earthly religions have to depend on human policy, human wisdom, and humanly devised means; but not so with the kingdom which no man can see except he be born again.

The protection of that kingdom is of him who is a wall of fire round about it, and the glory in its midst. All anti-christian religious establishments desire the arm of human government--regal power, and human means for their protection; but not so with the kingdom of Jesus Christ; the eternal God is the refuge of His people, and underneath them are the everlasting arms.

All provisions on which the subjects of the kingdom of our Lord are fed, comforted, instructed, and secured, are spiritual, and therefore cannot emanate from any but a spiritual fountain. Although the world, the flesh and Satan have volunteered like the aliens about Jerusalem in the days of Nehemiah, to furnish God's people with food, the order of the government forbids the traffic with them; and it is impossible that the children of the kingdom should be fed with any other food than that which God has graciously provided, and abundantly blessed.

Should the government of the kingdom of our Redeemer be to any extent divided with angels or men, whatever part or portion these should administer, must necessarily detract so much from the power and glory of Christ. "The government shall be upon his shoulder; and of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end." So stands the record of the Holy One. The subjects of his government are forbidden to call any man, master, or father, as their Master and spiritual Progenitor is in heaven, and nothing can be born of the flesh but flesh; so that without being born again, no man can see the kingdom of God. A legislature of unregenerate men who cannot see the kingdom, would be very poorly qualified to legislate for a kingdom which is to them absolutely invisible; and if there were none but regenerate men seated in legislation, they being by the new birth qualified to see the kingdom of God, would to a man, know by the same illuminating work of the Spirit, that they could do nothing to aid in the legislative or executive departments of the Messiah's kingdom.

The destiny of the kingdom of which we write, differs essentially from that of all other kingdoms. The best systems of human government are destined to crumble to the ground. In the providence of God, empires are founded, kingdoms and republics are raised up, they reach their climax, and then decline, and finally cease to be reckoned among the things that be; but the kingdom of Jesus is an everlasting kingdom, and a dominion that shall never end. It shall never be changed, superseded, or transferred to other hands. The mountains shall depart, the hills shall be moved, the earth and the sea shall pass away, and all the elements of this world shall be dissolved, but the kingdom of our God shall survive them all, and flourish in eternal bloom. How presumptuous then, for monarchs of the earth, whose transient glory is as a withering flower, or human legislatures which God shall obliterate, to prepare the way of the rising empire of his to reach forth the guilt-polluted fingers of their power, to point out the course in which God requires his children to move.

Seeing, then, that we look for such things--seeing that we have received a kingdom which is not of this world, which cannot be moved--let us have grace whereby we may serve God acceptably, with reverence and Godly fear; for our God is a consuming fire.

*************************************************************

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone,


Would like if I could to share a few thoughts on some things mentioned here. I don't have time to take up as much as has come to mind, but I would like to make some suggestions at least about this following:



To those who tempted Him with their questions concerning tribute money, He said, Render unto Caesar the things which belong to Caesar, and unto God the things which belong to God; thus clearly intimating that the governments were not only distinct from each other, but that the distinction should be perpetual;


This isn't exactly true.

The Lord Jesus first asked,

whose [i]is[/i] this image and superscription?


And then, when they answered "Caesar's", then He gave the answer that is qouted here.

It might be right to say again the context that this was set in: as was mentioned it comes over the question of whether it was lawfull(Strong's suggests the word means 'is it right') to give tribute money(taxes) to Caesar, the Jews being at the time an occupied peoples and under Roman rule.

I can't say that I know exactly what was behind their question(that is the Pharisees and Herodians), except we know for sure from the text that they desired to entrap the Lord Jesus in the question: I would not be unwilling to think that the force or their purposed entrapment was to put before the Lord Jesus a question where He would appear to be caught between choosing allegiance to Caesar. Or allegiance to God(something which may be indicated by the presence of [b]both[/b] the Pharisees [b]and[/b] the Herodians).


And this for one, is why I think we should note again His question to them before He gave them an answer, that is:


whose [i]is[/i] this image and superscription?


By pointing this out, that it was Caesar's image and writing on the coin, the Lord Jesus shows plainly that it belonged to Caesar also, and manifestly exposes the wickedness of their question which had so obvious an answer(EDIT that is, for example but not only this, if you do not wish to pay the tribute money, then what are you doing with Caesar's money to begin with).

But then, where did Caesar get his coins from?

John the Baptist said that no man can recieve anything, except he be given it from Heaven(John 3:27) and Paul the Apostle said that there is no power but of God(Romans 13:1) and so he says also,


"Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [i]is due[/i]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."

- Romans 13:7(KJV)

And so, if it was the intention of the Pharisees and the Herodians to force the Lord Jesus to choose allegiance between Caesar and God in answering their trap, there was of nescessity no conflict to begin with.


The money belonged to Caesar.

But whatever Caesar has, he's had it, ultimately, from God.


A distinction between the two Kingdoms? Most definitely. And many there are.


But the power? and the Authority? It all belongs to God(Psalm 62:11, Matthew 28:18). And is given to all sorts of men(Dan 4:17).

C
chapel

Resist Not Evil--Jesus Commanded It--How Far Does It
Go

By Jim Bruce

Jesus said in Matt. 5:9, "But I tell you, that ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." In verse 44 he tells us, "But I say unto you, love your enimies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and curse you;"

There is absolutely no way to make this mean anything else other than what Jesus plainly said. We may not like it; it may not be culturally or politically correct; it may not make sense to most people, but Jesus spoke with direct meaning and clarity. He gave us an example by not resisting evil Himself. We must be like Him. That's the way Christians are supposed to be--Christ-like.
In rebuking Peter for slashing off the ear of the servant of the high priest, Jesus said, in Matt. 26:52, "Put up again thy sword to it's place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." The non-resistance Jesus taught was intended for all Christians in all circumstances.

Do you think that Christians killing people in war is acceptable to God? If so, then you must think God has a double standard for Christians, that He makes an exception to the rule for those who kill for a government as soldiers--who now are well paid for their service. Do you think it is acceptable to God for a Christian, or the Church as a whole, to support war? Do you think a Christian or the Church, should be associated with a war that is supposed to be for our freedoms, or for any reason at all? Do you think that the love of the world, the love of country, love of the good life, love of freedom, comes before love for God? Answering yes to any of these questions shows a lack of understanding of the teachings of Jesus or a deliberate defiance of the New Testament teachings on this subject. It shows a love for the world more than that of God. There are no exceptions; there is no double standard to be found in the Bible.

We are told in Hebrews 12:14, "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" One cannot resist or defend by inflicting harm or death to another and at the same time possibly be holy. No where in the New Testament of the Holy Bible does Jesus teach fighting for freedom, for one's country, or anything else. The words of Jesus teach against being proud and lusting after the things of the world. We are to be humble and simple, content with what we are given in life, putting nothing before our love for God and pleasing Him by obeying His commands, which come through Jesus.

These next verses of scripture, (Romans 13:1-5), are often used to exempt civil and military duties from Jesus' teachings of non-violence.
"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake."
This is supposed to prove that Christians are to be part of armies fighting wars, and also policeman and other enforcing agencies of world governments; and because these are instituted by God, Jesus' rules no longer apply. How can anyone think that these five verses of scripture veto all of the strong and clear teachings of Jesus and the apostles that are found throughout the New Testament.

In Luke 3;7-14, John the Baptist was preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Many came forward, including soldiers, to be baptized asking what they must do. "And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages." How can a soldier continue to kill, cripple and injure people in all kinds of horrific ways, yet be obeying the order of John, "Do violence to no man"? The dictionary definition for violence is, physical or moral force; assault. How can a person be a member of Christ's Church, be a part of his most holy body, and commit such horrid acts of violence?

It has been said, "As long as the world stands, there will be need for good people often going into battle as representatives of their country in order to eradicate evil." As representatives of their country--that's patriotism not Christianity. That way of thinking puts the Church into the arena of politics and law--permitting Christians to kill, murder and maime, destroy houses, schools, hospitals, and do all kinds of evil if they are part of a government operation.

We can't always rightly judge which war is for a good cause and which is for a bad cause, but it makes no difference. War is the result of worldly desires. Christians must adhere to Christ. The right way to requite evil, according to Jesus, is not to resist it. This teaching of Jesus removes the Church from the arena of politics and law. Christians must live in the world, yet maintain a barrier between the Church and the world. Fighting and killing in a war removes that barrier and breaks the adherence to Christ. This makes evil the winner.

In a Church service, a worship service to God by God's children, should a prayer be made for "Our troops in combat"? The Church of Christ--according to Jesus--is not supposed to have any troops in combat. Any prayer supporting combat and the terrible violence involved is out of place in the Church of Christ. Combat is a direct violation of the teaching of Jesus Christ and must not be connected to the Church in any way. The lack of opposition to this is letting heresy creep into the Church.

In the beatitudes Jesus tells us that we should be meek, merciful, pure in heart, that we should mourn for the world; we should be pure in spirit; we should be willing to be persecuted for righteousness sake, and it is extremely important that we be peacemakers; "for they shall be called the children of God." This is found in Matt. 5:3-12. So, how can we be all of these ways and support war or violence of any kind? How can we possibly be peacemakers? We can't and be obedient to God.

Jesus demands undivided allegiance. He calls His disciples men who have left all to follow Him, and the teachings of non-violence applies equally to private life and official duty. Christian love has been diliuted into patriotism, loyalty to country, political parties; social clubs, religious denominations, and other forms of Idolatry. Proud and arrogant attitudes associated with nationality are not consistant with the teachings of Jesus.

The Pharisees tried to trick Jesus and get Him to speak against Ceasar. They asked Him, "Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Ceasar, or not?" Jesus replied, "--Render therefore unto Ceasar the things which are Ceasar's; and unto God the things that are God's." (Matthew 22:17-21.) Paying taxes was the issue in question, but it represents obedience to authorities. This example clearly tells us how to submit to authorities. We cannot violate the laws of God, which are the teachings of Jesus Christ, in the process of submitting to authorities. For example, the apostles continued to preach and teach when they were told not to by the authorities. There have been thousands of Christian martyrs. They were killed because they placed their love for Jesus above loyalty to State.

"Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, we ought to obey God rather than men." (Acts 5:29.) They said this after being told by the High Priest and Council to stop preaching the doctrine of Jesus. This verse of scripture calls for defiance of the demand from the higher powers because it was against the command of God. The things which are Ceasar's, are the things that are required to support the government that do not violate the laws of God. The things which are God's, pertain to all righteousness; for all righteousness comes from God. The New Testament of the Holy Bible tells us, through the teachings of Jesus Christ, how we are to conduct our lives. Nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus give any exceptions to His commands. Making exceptions for civil duties, makes God subordinate to governments. It is an enormous error to exploit the doctrine of Christ so as to justify direct relationship with things of this world. Jesus Christ must always stand between the Christian and the world.

Christianity makes a deep intrusion into worldly living. There is a big difference between the two, and it must become even clearer to Christians. Christians have to choose, and the chose is determined by obedience to the word: "And be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind. That ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Romans 12:2.) Christians should be spiritually free and able to function in the world without withdrawing from it altogether, yet remove themselves from the world when it becomes an obstruction or hindrance to discipleship. When we look at what Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 10:2-4, it can only mean one thing: Christians are not to live by this world's standards, and that means not going to war as the world does. This pertains to more than spreading the gospel. Paul makes a clear distinction between Christians and the world. The difference between Christian standards and world standards is the theme throughout the New Testament. Being "unusual," "peculiar," "extraordinary," that's what makes the Christian different from other people. A Christian must not be ordinary, as that which is a matter of course. The extraordinary never merges with the natural or ordinary ways of the world. The extraordinary is the life described in the "Beatitudes," the life of followers of Jesus. One of them says, "Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." Peacemakers and warriors can never be synonymous. They are completely opposite.

The apostle Paul wrote to the Thessalonians instructing them with the same clarity and direct meaning that Jesus spoke--having no doubt as to what Jesus meant. "See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but follow that which is good, both among yourselves and to all men." (Thessalonians 5:15.) The Church of Jesus must be lifted above the world to keep it pure and holy. We must never lower it to the level of the world, and therefore desecrate and pollute it with the cruelty of war and other unholy things associated with politics and law.

Romans 13:1-7, does not permit Christians to go to war and kill other human beings-- some of them being Christians also. As Christians we are the Temple of God. "Know ye not that ye are the Temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" (1Corinthians 3:16.) If we defile our bodies, we defile the Temple of God. The Temple of God is holy. God will destroy those who defile it. "If any man defile the Temple of God, him will I destroy; for the Temple of God is holy, which Temple ye are." (1 Corinthians 3:17.)

Question: How can a Christian participate in acts of war without defiling the Temple of God; using their bodies to kill and mutilate human beings, and also putting their own bodies in jeopardy of severe injury or death, therefore defiling the Temple of God? How can it be even imaginable that the holy Temple of God be involved in acts of war? How can it be permissible for a child of God to fight in a war? Wars are fought to protect or secure a nation or country because of worldly desires or lusts. Whether it be the good life, accumulation of material goods, the love of freedom, or the pursuit of happiness; whatever it may be, it is not spiritual but fleshly desires. Regardless of the motive, it pertains to loving the world. 1 John 2:15-16, tells us, "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." This being true, how can we justify fighting and killing in a war of the world over the things that are in the world? Jesus would not let His disciples fight for His cause; what else can be of more importance?
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now is my kingdom not from hence." (John 18:36.)

The governments of the world are "ordained" by God, but ordained simply means appointed; that doesn't mean they are holy and righteous. Christians are to obey the laws and pay taxes, they are to be good citizens; going about their lives in simplicity and meekness. Christians are to be of low estate, they are not to seek high positions; Paul made that clear in Romans 12:16. "Be of the same mind one toward another, mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits." This being true, Christians should not be in the position to be, "an executer of wrath." Romans 13:4, speaking of rulers, says, "For he is the minister of God to thee for good---he is a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." Verse 6 says, "For they are God's ministers---." Verse 7, "Render therefore to all their dues;" Paul with the use of he, they, and their, while refering to the higher powers, is setting them apart from the Christian. He is the minister of God for thee. Paul places the Christians in the position of low estate. Christians are not to be the executers of wrath.

In verse 8-10, Paul lays out how the Christian must live; how to fulfill the law. "Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law." Verse 9: "For this, thou shalt not commit adultry, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, thou shalt love thou neighbor as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Paul clearly tells the Christians how to live their lives while being subject to the higher powers. The Christians are spoken of one way, while the higher powers are spoken of another way. This clearly separates the two groups. Christians cannot possibly be executers of wrath while holding a civil position, killing in a war, or even being violent in any way; and at the same time be obedient to Paul's commands.

Using the interpretation of Romans 13:1-7, as an exception to the rules for a Christian life, is a misinterpretation of an enormous magnitude. Following that interpretation and ignoring many other scriptures that are to the contrary, is reading into the Bible that which allows a Christian society to serve two masters. It allows Christians to blend in with the ungodly; having fleshly desires and lusts of worldly nature, fighting and killing in the name of patriotism: Baptized belivers attempting to serve two masters--Jesus said it is impossible.
Using Romans 13:1-7, to clear the way for killing is wrong. "Render therefore unto Ceasar the things which are Ceasar's; and unto God the things that are God's." In this saying Jesus makes it clear how Christians are to be subject to the higher powers. The things that are God's consist of obedience to his word--holiness. We are to love Him with all our heart, with all our soul and all our mind. How can anyone even imagine that the things that are Ceasar's consist of the service of a child of God executing wrath by killing for him (Ceasar) in a war. The service of allegiance to the doctrine of Christ belongs to God. If we do anything for Ceasar that violates the doctrine of Jesus Christ, then we are rendering to Ceasar that which is God's.

There is no debate to whether those in ruling power of civil governments are ministers of God, put in place to enforce laws and direct civil obedience; but they are ministers of God to the Christians, not of the Christians. It is the system, or plan that has been put in place, not each individual. Those that make up the civil governments may be evil; they are just part of the system which is of the world-- not spiritual. Paul states in Romans 13:4-5, "For he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for concience sake." This is the way governments are supposed to function, but we all know, that is not the way it is in all cases.

At this early period, the Christians were usually associated by the heathens with the Jews, and the Jews were noted for disturbances and turbulence. The fires that broke out a few years later in the Jewish uprising that led to the destruction of Jerusalem, were already smoldering wherever there were those of Jewish blood. Many Christians were Jews by birth. There was a danger that Christians, especialy under persecution, would be inclined to make disturbance. Paul was not giving an order for Christians to be subject to the ruling powers by going out and fighting in wars or doing any kind of violence. He was ordering them to be subject by being peaceable, and not to revolt against an order of discipline by the magistrates. The magistrates that governed at that time had the right to use the sword against those that were unruly. In Processions, a sword would go before the magistrates to show that he had that power.

Things must be taken into account and put into proper prospective in this order by Paul in Romans 13. Instead of authorizing Christians to perform acts of violence and killing while in a civil position, he was actually ordering them to be peaceful and not to make disturbance, in other words to be passive especially under persecution. That's what he meant by being subject to the higher authorities. A few verses of Romans 13, are used by many to justify fighting and killing as a civil duty, although it doesn't mean that at all. Christian are told not to be any part of the higher powers. We go back to Romans 12:16, where Paul says, "Be of the same mind one toward another, mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits." Christians are not to be bothered with "high things" such as positions of authority; but to lower themselves to men of low estate, men who are content with necessities of life, men who are under the authorities.

Something to consider now, and at that time: Soldiers were hired by the government, they were, and are now, performing a job for pay. At times they become "hired killers." There is no draft now; no one has to enlist in the armed forces. Everyone knows they may be ordered to go into combat to kill and mutilate other humans; that's what the armed forces are for. True men and women of God should defy unto death any draft or order that requires killing or committing acts of violence for any reason. No Christian should ever volunteer.

To sum up what Paul wrote in Romans 12 and 13: He starts off by telling Christians how to live: presenting our bodies a living sacrifice, holy acceptable unto God, which is our reasonable service. He tells us not to be conformed to this world. He tells us if possible to live peaceable with all men. We are told to avenge not ourselves but rather give place unto wrath: "for it is written, vengeance is mine; I will repay saith the Lord,"-- We are told to overcome evil with good. Paul tells us to be under the higher powers, rendering all their dues. He goes on to say that we are to love one another, for that fulfills all the law. He then states part of the law and says they are all summed up by the saying, "Love thy neighbor as thyself," and that love worketh no ill to his neighbor. One of the laws he quotes is, "Thou shalt not kill." Be mindful that this comes after admonishing Christians to be subject to the higher powers. This clearly emphasizes the Christians accountably to the laws of God while serving those in authority.

Jesus never said, not to resist evil except in a civil position or job. He never said, thou shalt not kill, except for a government as a soldier. He never gave an exception for committing any sin. Jesus never preached a double standard. It couldn't be much clearer: How can soldier fight, cripple, and kill in a war, and at the same time do violence to no man? War is loyalty to state and Christianity is loyalty to God. The Bible is clear on this subject. People just don't want to accept it, because war provides the good life in America. People are putting that good life and all the luxuries that come along with it, before love for God and obedience to Him.

Which side had you rather be on if you were wrong? Would you feel safer to be a pacifist, or a non-pacifist, as you stand before Jesus on the day of judgment? Forget about the world--think spiritual--which side clearly represents Jesus?

S
sermonindex

Quote
Do you think that Christians killing people in war is acceptable to God? If so, then you must think God has a double standard for Christians, that He makes an exception to the rule for those who kill for a government as soldiers--who.."

Ahhh, here we go still at it eh chapel? Condeming soldiers who are christians doing their job.

I have not posted any responses on this for awhile. However since you keep persisting in this I just had to stop in and make a comment.

What you are espousing is fine for individual christians to choose to be. However when you proceed to declare that soldiers who are christians are in rebellion to God, well thats where you step to far.

Oh well, I say this for those who might be a little confused in hope that they will not enter into the judgement that you are doing.

Oh yes , I hear you now," It is not I that judge them but the scripture"

Well, it's your slant on the scripture, therefore it is you!

N
nasekom

Hi.I just read a couple of posts here and i want to leave my short comment and my personal view on this subject.For decades in former USSR the only answer to that question was-no,no way!Christian can't do that.it contradicts the word of God.some Christians were actually killed and many-many sent to prisons for refusal to go to Soviet army.But they chose not to compromise but to stay faithful to their God no matter what.Did they not know what their Bibles say about it?I know personally some men who have been through that and looking at their godly lives i have great respect for them.And they do know their Bibles very well.As for me-no,i don't think Christians should become soldiers or participate in any of that sort of activity.We have a different kind of battles to fight,not the flesh and blood. Yours in Christ,nasekom.

S
sermonindex


nasekom wrote:
Hi.I just read a couple of posts here and i want to leave my short comment and my personal view on this subject.For decades in former USSR the only answer to that question was-no,no way!Christian can't do that.it contradicts the word of God.some Christians were actually killed and many-many sent to prisons for refusal to go to Soviet army.But they chose not to compromise but to stay faithful to their God no matter what.Did they not know what their Bibles say about it?I know personally some men who have been through that and looking at their godly lives i have great respect for them.And they do know their Bibles very well.As for me-no,i don't think Christians should become soldiers or participate in any of that sort of activity.We have a different kind of battles to fight,not the flesh and blood. Yours in Christ,nasekom.


Thank you for your post.
I would say that christians will have less trouble and temptation if they remain out of the military. However I will also say that there are born again Christians in the the military. That it is lawfully scriptural for them to be there and carry out their duties. They must of course be wise and carefull to not fall into the various temtations that accompany being a soldier. This can be very difficult.

Finally, the christian soldier or police officer or governmental official who has to kill in the line of duty is not condemmed as a murderer. He is acting in his office. However. even when the christian is justified in this duty it can still be hard. But no one said life is easy...did they.

N
nasekom

thanks thingsabove.as with many other things we can find Scriptures to support both points of view.what i do sometimes is i put it to a little test.Looking inside of me i ask myself before God (with This particular thread for instance)-am i(being a Christian) ok joining the military or police or something? Honest answer is NO.Again i was raised in Eastern Europe and the way i look at it is different from the way many Christians say in America look at it.We are called to be Christ-like and i just can't see myself(i can only speak for myself) being Christ-like with a loaded gun in my hand ready for action.

S
sermonindex

Amen nasekom, I agree with you in what you are saying. God bless.

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone,


Before I continue to participate in this thread I want to say that [i]it is[/i] [b][u]in no way[/b][/u] my intention in participating in this topic, to convince or encourage anyone to particpate in war or in civil governments, where ever they are and whoever they may be.

Let me say it again, [b]it is not[/b] my intention to convince or encourage anyone to particpate in war or in civil governments, where ever they are and whoever they may be.


That said, since this topic has continued I think there are some things that it would be appropriate to respond to. I'll try to do that following.

C
ChrisJD

Since there have been so many pages of writtings posted here it wouldn't be appropriate to try to respond to even many of them. Some things have caught my attention in particular and I would like to share some thoughts about them following, which I may do over several posts. The qoutes that I will be responding to come from the article that was posted titled: [i]Resist Not Evil--Jesus Commanded It--How Far Does It Go[/i].



In rebuking Peter for slashing off the ear of the servant of the high priest, Jesus said, in Matt. 26:52, "Put up again thy sword to it's place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." The non-resistance Jesus taught was intended for all Christians in all circumstances.

And yet there is a very distinct context in which this is said.


And that context is the accomplishing of our Salvation. Christ was to be offered for our sins! He had many times before this warned the disciples and told them that it must be so and somewhat of how it was to happen, and this was not to be stopped. And the scriptures had to be fulfilled(Mat 26:54).

If His Kingdom were like the kingdoms of the world, if it was to be advanced into the world, and carried on to victory like the ways in which kings and kingdoms of this world fight for power and dominance in the earth, then His followers too would have fought [b]that He should be released[/b](John 18:11, 36).


But His Kingdom did not enter into this world like that. Neither did it or does it continue to advance in that way either. The power and momentum and victory for Christ's Kingdom comes from the power of God from on High, and from strength through weakness.


But it can be noticed here also that:

One, the Lord Jesus did not tell Peter(for whatever reason, I will not speculate) to throw away his sword altogether, but to put it back in it's place.


Two, according to Strong's, the word translated perish is:


G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Now, that may mean here, as perhaps we would most likely read it: that if you take the sowrd, [i]you[/i] will die with it also.


But in the context, I do not think it is impossible to be understood this way: that those that take the sword, [b]will fully destroy [u]with[/u] the sword[/b].

And so, if Peter would have continued, an all out fight would have ensued untill at least all or some were destroyed. Fighting and rage are a fire that is not easily put out(Proverbs 17:14).

But this was not to be!!!

C
ChrisJD

Do you think that Christians killing people in war is acceptable to God? If so, then you must think God has a double standard for Christians, that He makes an exception to the rule for those who kill for a government as soldiers--who now are well paid for their service.


Wars are fought to protect or secure a nation or country because of worldly desires or lusts.


Whatever you may think of these statements, or answer to them, I think that it is nescessary to remember the many and various ways that [b]the Scriptures[/b] describe God in relationship to these things.


For one, that He is not at all distant or far removed from them.

Wars may be fought for a variety of human reasons. But human beings are not the sole or soveriegn actors on the stage of this life. It is God that is ultimately over the destiny of any nation any age or time in history.


And so I think it is prudent to consider that before we attempt to answer the questions put here above for every individual, or before we are certain in our minds that we know the ultimate reason or the cause for any conflict or war among the nations.

Proverbs 21:1, 25:2-3 28:2

Psalm 2:6-12, 9:17, Is 60:1-22


Isaiah 13:1-22, 10:5-19, Jer 27:8, Mat 22:1-7


Psalm 24:1, 115:1-3, 22:27-28, 103:19-22


Psalm 97:9

Matthew 28:18


[i]edited to correct a reference[/i]

C
ChrisJD

We are told in Hebrews 12:14, "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" One cannot resist or defend by inflicting harm or death to another and at the same time possibly be holy.


And yet the Prophets and other men of God in the Sacred History of the Bible that did use a sword, some more or less than others, are also called Holy such as Samuel, or David, or any of the Judges of Israel.


And God, that is Most Holy, is certainly a defender: of the poor and needy(Ps 82:3), of those that call upon Him(Ps 59:1). And His people(Is 37:35).


No where in the New Testament of the Holy Bible does Jesus teach fighting for freedom, for one's country, or anything else. The words of Jesus teach against being proud and lusting after the things of the world. We are to be humble and simple, content with what we are given in life, putting nothing before our love for God and pleasing Him by obeying His commands, which come through Jesus.

And yet I think that it can be unwise or even hurtfull attempting to sift the motives and intentions of the hearts of others. Because that is something reserved for God(Jer 17:10).


For what was in the heart of the three mighty men of David, who, when he longed for water from a well of Bethlehem, broke through the Philistine line to get it for him?

And did not David honor their courage and devotion to him by refusing to drink it before the Lord, calling it [i] the blood of the men that went in jeopardy of their lives? [/i]( see 2Samuel 23:13-17).


We are told to do all things as unto the Lord. We may or may not understand the actions of others, who would be claiming to do just that.

C
ChrisJD

These next verses of scripture, (Romans 13:1-5), are often used to exempt civil and military duties from Jesus' teachings of non-violence. "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake." This is supposed to prove that Christians are to be part of armies fighting wars, and also policeman and other enforcing agencies of world governments; and because these are instituted by God, Jesus' rules no longer apply. How can anyone think that these five verses of scripture veto all of the strong and clear teachings of Jesus and the apostles that are found throughout the New Testament.

I think it would be appropriate to remember first that the Lord God is speaking in both places, both in the teachings of the Lord Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, and in the writings of Paul the Apostle in Romans chapter 13. God is speaking there, as much as in the book of Ecclesiastes, where the preacher says there is a time of war and a time of peace. For later, the same preacher says that he had sought out [i]acceptable[/i] words, and that which was written, was upright, and words of truth.


And so, if someone takes these seperately, and for instance does not believe that in the Sermon on the Mount the Lord Jesus was giving commandments to the kings and kingdoms of this world as to how they should order and protect their citizens and kingdoms, if they take that seperately from the Apostle Paul's teachings in Romans chapter 13 and suggest that they do, it doesn't mean they are taking the one set of passages as an exemption, or a veto over the others. But that they are trying to rightly divide(distinguish between) and apply the two.


In Luke 3;7-14, John the Baptist was preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Many came forward, including soldiers, to be baptized asking what they must do. "And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages." How can a soldier continue to kill, cripple and injure people in all kinds of horrific ways, yet be obeying the order of John, "Do violence to no man"? The dictionary definition for violence is, physical or moral force; assault. How can a person be a member of Christ's Church, be a part of his most holy body, and commit such horrid acts of violence?


As was pointed out before in this thread, the word that is translated [i]violence[/i] in this passage in the KJV is defined this way:


G1286
διασείω
diaseiō
dee-as-i'-o
From G1223 and G4579; to shake thoroughly, that is, (figuratively) to intimidate: - do violence to.


I do not know why the KJV translators rendered this [i]violence[/i]. My suspicion is that it was the proper rendering for the english usage of the word violence at that time. I do not know that but it is my guess.

The way that I take the meaning of the word in this passage is that John was telling them not to "shake anybody down", that is, use force and the threat of violence to gain something from them, which would be a horrible abuse of thier authority and power. And I think that is entirely consistent with the rest of the passage.


What doesn't make any sense to me, is to suggest that John was telling soldiers to never do anything to harm anyone(which would be nescessary to one degree or another in being a soldier), and at the same time to expect that they should continue to get get their wages, let alone be content with them!

No, the whole force of the passage is that John is telling them they can repent this way:

dont' use their authority and postion to get money or anything else from people [b]unjustly[/b]. But be content with what they were rightfully earning. That is, [b][u]their wages[/b][/u].

I too hate the thought of violence. It could make me sick to my stomach and the last thing I want is [b]anyone[/b] to be harmed.


But I don't think that is what this passage is talking about.

I think that this will be all for now. I'll try to respond more later.

C
chapel

“Concerning the Sword”: A Hutterian Apologia of 1577
[Article IV of the Great Article Book]

EDITED BY LEONARD GROSS*
TRANSLATED BY ELIZABETH HORSCH BENDER, ET AL.

This translation first appeared in the January 2009 issue of the
Mennonite Quarterly Review.

BACKGROUND
“Concerning the Sword” is the fourth article of what is known as the Great Article Book.

It was written in the 1570s, at a time when a
proliferating number of confessions of faith were at hand and available for a new synthesis of where the Hutterites stood, on the basis of biblical theology. Five select points were decided upon, which together expressed the central and essential elements of Anabaptist faith from the Hutterian perspective. The result served well both for instructional purposes within the community and as a witness to interested individuals outside it.
Four of these themes were basic to the preservation of the movement: believer’s baptism, the Lord’s Supper,community of goods, and the relationship of church and state. A fifth theme arose out of the mission program: the question of existing marriages between Hutterite converts and their non-Hutterite spouses.

The Great Article Book became the synthesizer and simplifier. Its five articles, presented in a format that all members could understand,
provided a foundation around which the fundamental Hutterian truths were built. This work reflects a new era within Hutterian history parallel to general European history of the 1570s and 1580s: the age of confessionalism and a beginning orthodoxy.

[CONCERNING THE SWORD]4

4. This title supplied by Robert Friedmann, in Friedmann, Glaubenszeugnisse oberdeutscher Taufgesinnter II, 239.

THAT CHRISTIANS MAY NOT ENGAGE IN WARFARE, ADMINISTER WORLDLY LAW, WIELD THE SWORD OR RESORT TO VIOLENCE, AND THAT THOSE IN SUCH OFFICE CANNOT BE CONSIDERED CHRISTIANS

Psalm 72:[7]
In his days may righteousness flourish and peace abound, till the moon be no more!

Matthew 5:[39] But I say to you, “Do not resist one who is evil.”

Matthew 20:[25-26]
But Jesus called to his disciples and said to them, “You know that worldly rulers lord it over the nations, and their great men rule with force. It shall not be so among you.”

Luke 22:[25-26]
The powerful are called gracious lords, but not so with you: the greatest among you shall become the least.

1
Early on, God said to Noah, “For your lifeblood I shall surely require a reckoning; of every beast I will require it and of man; of every man’s brother I will require the life of man. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image”
(Gen. 9:[5 f]; Mt. 26:[52]; Rev. 13:[10]). Therefore God did not want a blood sacrifice, to indicate that if the blood of unreasoning beasts is so precious, how much more is that of a man!

2
King David planned to build a house in honor of the name of the Lord his God. But the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “You may not
build a house for my name, for you are a warrior and have shed blood. Lo, the son who will be born to you will be a man of peace. I will give
him peace from his enemies round about, for his name shall be Solomon; for I will give peace and rest to Israel throughout his lifetime. He shall
build a house to my name” (1 Chr. 28:[3], 23:[24-32], 29:[1-30]).5 This foreshadows the house of Christ as a wholly peaceable people, unspotted
by bloodshed.

3
And when Solomon built the house—the temple (which was to be a symbol or figure of the church of Christ in the New Testament)—it was
built with undressed stone from the quarry, so that neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron was heard while the temple was being built (1
Kings 6:[7]). This foreshadows that the church of Christ shall not be brought to faith or built with noise or with force, as the papists do,
together with their stepbrothers, who have handed over the gift of faith to kings and princes, allowing them to rule over faith with the sword and ramming it into the people.

4
The people said to Samuel, “Appoint us a king to govern us, like other nations, to go before us in battle and conduct our wars.” This displeased
Samuel, and the Lord said, “They have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them. They are now doing to you what they have always done from the day I brought them out of Egypt, up to this day; they have forsaken me and served other gods” (1 Sam. 8:[5-8]).

5. Text reads: 1 Chr. 18, 23, 29.
6. Reference to the Peace of Augsburg, 1555.


If God was thus displeased with his earthly people Israel, what will he not do to us, to whom he sent his dearly beloved Son from heaven, had him appear on the earth and crowned him as our king. What if we were to forsake him, refuse to have him rule over us (Lk. [19:14]), and choose a fleshly arm to rule in his church, or even want to be king ourselves such as other nations have! (Ps. 52:[1-9]). For Christ is the only king in his church, and the word of the Lord is the only judge and sword of Christians. Whoever rejects this and wants to have it otherwise, rejects not Christ but the Father who sent him, just as it was not Samuel who was rejected, but God. Here is one greater than Samuel, the fathers and the prophets.

5
In the Book of Judges we have a parable or analogy of this with the house of Gideon, who said to Israel, “I will not rule over you, and my
son will not rule over you;7 the Lord will rule over you.”8
But Abimelech, the son of his concubine,
proceeded to make himself king. Then Jotham, Gideon’s son, said, “Listen to me, you men of Shechem, and may God listen to you: ‘Once upon a time the trees came to anoint a king, and they said to the olive tree: Be king over us. But the olive tree answered: What, leave my rich oil by which God and men are honored, to come and hold sway over the trees? So the trees said to the fig tree: Then will you come and be king over us? But the fig tree answered: What, leave my good fruit and all its sweetness, to come and hold sway over the trees? So the trees said to the vine: Then will you come and be king over us? But the vine answered: What, leave my new wine which gladdens gods and men to hold sway over the trees? Then all the trees said to the thornbush: Will you then be king over us? And the thornbush said to the trees: If you really mean to anoint me as your king, then come under the protection of my shadow; if not, fire shall come out of the thornbush and burn up the cedars of Lebanon.’” (Judg. 9:[7-15]).

From this we see and learn that a Christian, who throughout the Scriptures is likened to an olive tree, a fig tree, a vine and other good trees, can today so much the less be a ruler. If he does become a lord and ruler he forsakes his Christian fruit-bearing and has to go out to hold
sway over the trees. For being a spiritual and Christian person cannot be combined with being a worldly power. The son of the concubine (who

7. “and my son will not rule over you” was left out in Friedmann, 1967,
but is in the original codex.
8. Judg. 8:23.

has no part in the inheritance with the legitimate son) is the government(Gal. 4:[30]). That is why government is likened to a thornbush as having the same nature, for it shares its nature. It is appointed, like wild trees, to
tear, scratch, and prick. It is on account of these thorns that a ruler with thorns and claws is appointed to hold sway over others.
But we, dear brethren, ought not to be so, but as Isaiah prophesies: Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress; instead of the briar shall come up the myrtle (Isa. 55:[13]).

6
Jacob the Patriarch also prophesied the same outcome, saying, “The scepter shall not depart from Judah until the hero (Christ) comes” (Gen.
49:[10]). Because the rulership of the Jews (who were at that time God’s people) comes to an end in Christ, ceases, and is taken from them, it is
indeed clear that the Jewish rule shall not exist in Christ and that he alone will rule among Christians with his spiritual sword. The fact that the power of the temporal sword is to be taken from the Jews means that henceforth, God’s people shall no longer wield the sword, use it or govern with it. And the fact that it has been turned over to the heathen indicates that those who do not submit to the Spirit of Christ, that is, all the heathen and unbelievers, shall be subject to the rule and penalty of the sword, as it is written: “God has appointed that all nations have a government, but he alone has become Lord over Israel” (Sir. 17:[17]).

7
Israel—the Jews as a figurative people—wielded the sword against its enemies, evildoers and opponents; nevertheless they did not move into
battle without the Lord’s orders and command (Num. 21:[32-35]; 20:[14-29]), but asked his counsel through his prophets and servants and
heeded his word as to whether they should go to battle. When they failed to do this, marching out of their own free will (as happens today),
they did not succeed, but at times suffered great humiliation and loss.
Therefore, because the people of the New Testament have no command from the Lord to wage war—on the contrary, are forbidden to do so—on
no account are they to take such a liberty.

8
Job, the God-fearing man, says: “Be afraid of the sword, for wrath brings the punishment of the sword, that you may know there is a judgment” (Job 19:[29]). Therefore the temporal sword has been assigned to those who do not fear God and his final Judgment, so that they must
learn to fear the sword and learn thereby, that while men punish with the sword, all the more will God punish at his Judgment. That is why
Paul says, The power of the sword is given to be feared, not by those who do good, but by those who do evil.9

9
David, the royal prophet, prophesying of the church of Christ and describing the kingdom of Christ, says: “Come and see the works of the
Lord, who has wrought such desolation on earth. He has made wars to cease to the ends of the earth (namely, through the Gospel, which the
apostles carried to all parts of the world, doing away with war among all believers). He has broken bows, shattered spears, and burned the
chariots with fire” (Ps. 46:[8-9]).10

10
“His abode has been established in Salem, his dwelling place in Zion. There he broke the flashing arrows, the shield, the sword, and the weapons of war” (Ps. 76:[2-3]). Now, if man makes and prepares what God destroys, he is acting in direct opposition to God.

Continued:

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi ChrisJD...

Thank you for your posts.

Those of us who believe that there are certain limited uses of physical force (such in the protection of a child, wife or a weaker person) are not "lovers of violence." We don't WANT to physically defend someone else. We just feel compelled to do so. I agree with your analysis of that particular passage. I also find it interesting that we can attempt to make an established doctrine from the interpretation of that passage but often fail to consider the verses surrounding it.

Too often, I fear that we "pick and choose" the verses upon which we build a doctrine by which we judge the views that others appear to have with a clear conscience before God.

C
ChrisJD

Hi Chris and others,

I appreciate the opportunity to express some thoughts about these things, if they are true.

Whatever the case, it would be terrible to condemn others wrongly on either side. Violence is not only a physical beast and has no physical boundaries.

C
ChrisJD

I realise that another article has been posted here but I hope it will be alright to continue to respond to the one previous.


In a Church service, a worship service to God by God's children, should a prayer be made for "Our troops in combat"? The Church of Christ--according to Jesus--is not supposed to have any troops in combat. Any prayer supporting combat and the terrible violence involved is out of place in the Church of Christ. Combat is a direct violation of the teaching of Jesus Christ and must not be connected to the Church in any way. The lack of opposition to this is letting heresy creep into the Church.

Paul writes to Timothy with the exhortation that:

"...supplications, prayers, intercessions, [i]and[/i] giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority"


And this he instructs so that:


"...we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty"


I think it is no coincidence that Paul mentions both kings and those who are in authority in this exhortation to prayer which has as its end the providential blessing of a quite and peacefull life for beleivers.


As is pointed out further on in this article, Paul says in Romans chapter 13 that rulers(and in this context those that bear the sword under their authority) are(he calls them) "...the minister of God to thee for good". The author points out also that "thee" is intended to mean the believer, that is, that their rule and authority(those of rulers and governments) provide for the welfare, protection, and benefit of those who are peacefull and lawabiding.


If Paul would have us to pray for those [i]who are in authority[/i], I cannot imagine that he would not have us to pray for those [u]who are under it[/u], and who he otherwise calls:

"...the minister of God to thee for good"


Now I realise that a specific kind of prayer was mentioned here, and that is, "Our troops in combat", but this is entirely vauge.

What is meant here: that prayers should not be made for men that are hazarding their lives? for their immediate protection? or for those who have left families behind? for the comfort of those whose loved ones they may not see for a long time or even ever again?

Now it may be put forward that the primary objection here is to offer a prayer for the victory of one side or the other, and to this I would recall what the author says elsewhere:


We can't always rightly judge which war is for a good cause and which is for a bad cause, but it makes no difference.


Whether or not [b]we[/b] can, God certainly can and does, and anyone that prays to Him on the behalf of someone fighting in a war could certainly take great comfort in that.

Besides this, there are times when a cause is either manifestly evil or good, and what then:

should there be silence from those who alone on earth have the means of direct communion with God?



Any prayer supporting combat and the terrible violence involved is out of place in the Church of Christ.


In Luke it says that when the Lord Christ taught us to pray and to not give up in praying, He taught a parable about a certain widow and an unjust judge. The widow He says, went to the judge asking that he avenge her of her adversary. Strong's says this word [i]adversary[/i] in the greek is an-tid'-ee-kos, meaning 'an opponent(in a lawsuit)' and specifically it means 'Satan'. After telling the parable, and how the unjust judge finally grants her request after she persists in asking, the Lord says that won't God avenge His own elect that cry unto Him day and night? And is this not also similar to the cry in Revelation 6:9-10?

I mention this first(not to suggest that we should want to see revenge opon others) because the author seems to suggest that anything that has to do with violence of any kind is inappropriate to be even heard in the Church. And yet this cry in Revelation, is not heard in the Church only, but coming from the very Throne Room of God.


And secondly I mention this because, in the first century, those who were the first and primary opponents to the Christians and the spread of the Gospel were the Jews that did not believe(See for instance 1Th 2:14-16).


While there is [b]in no way [u]any[/u] room[/b] to say that the Jews or any Jews are to be called the devil, yet I think the scriptures indicate that at least a part of them were in league with the devil in their actions.


Paul says in Romans 16:20 that "The God of peace" would bruise satan under their feet shortly.

He says that the wrath had come upon them to the uttermost, and the Lord Jesus said that there was wrath going to come upon the people(Luke 21:23).

I mention all of this in connection with what the Lord Jesus said in the parable that He taught about the people that took the king's servants and killed them that had invited them to the wedding, He says:


"But when the king heard [i]thereof[/i], he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city."

- Matthew 22:7(KJV)

H
HeartSong

"But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and grew.. . ." - Exodus 1:12

It is in affliction that power is gained. If we afflict our enemies, take up arms against them, we actually empower them for greater destruction. When the single grain of wheat falls to the earth and dies, more wheat springs up as a result. One might say that it is not the same for tares, but in reality it is - and it seems to me that weeds multiply even faster than wheat.

It was this way for the Anabaptists, their enemies found that whenever one was killled, even more would spring up to take their place. Would this not also work in reverse, or rather, from the opposing viewpoint? Is this why the Father warns us against such things?

We must remember that we are dealing with the spiritual realm and the rules are different, in fact they are the opposite of what we would suppose. If we were fighting against flesh and blood the enemy would die as the result of being stricken - but we are not fighting against flesh and blood, we are fighting against vessels that are possessed of the enemy, of principalities and powers in high places. If a vessel is destroyed, the enemy just moves on to a new one - and from the sound of it, he multiplies.

War is a win-win for the enemy of our souls. He gains the soul of the stricken vessel as well as the soul of the one that is doing the striking; for God's commandment reads:

"Thou shalt not kill." - Exodus 20:13

And if soldiers feel fully justified in having killed another, they will not repent, and therefore, they will not be forgiven.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi HeartSong...

"Thou shalt not kill." - Exodus 20:13

..and yet, many people killed by the direction of God shortly after those words were written in stone. I feel that it is incorrect to quote this verse in such a context when we know that this commandment of God was not directed at people who were in the military or those who were acting in defense of someone else. There is a world of difference between someone who willfully murders (with intent) and those who are simply acting on behalf of someone in their care...or even those who are serving in the military or local police.
And if soldiers feel fully justified in having killed another, they will not repent, and therefore, they will not be forgiven.

I completely disagree with this opinion. You have effectively declared a final spiritual judgment of hellfire upon every soldier (including those who have bled for your right to say such things in a public forum). I suppose that this is one of the problems that I have with these sort of "pacifist" or "non-resistance" discussions. We are declaring a personal opinion about Scripture as though it clearly sends all soldiers to Hell (unless they repent for, well, being soldiers). Likewise, we often see those who claim a Scriptural prohibition from every form of physical "resistance" (but who are often quick to send someone to Hell simply for disagreeing with their opinion) and feel securely enough about their opinion to turn it into a required doctrine.

John the Baptist, Peter, Paul and even Jesus did NOT tell the soldiers that they encountered to change their professions. Even in Luke 3, John didn't tell soldiers to quit their jobs. Yes, the KJV uses the term "do violence to no man," but in the context it is talking about taking (via extortion) money by force (as it reads in versions like the NASB, NIV and, well, the Greek). Yet, if someone were to be contentious, ChrisJD has already pointed out that the word "violence" is not meant to convey a utter prohibition of physical resistance. Jesus himself cleared out the Temple with a whip just three and a half years later.

I think that we need to be careful not to verbally condemn people to Hell based simply upon the way we personally (or as a sect or group) interpret the meaning of these passages. At the same time, I think that we should be clear that those of us who believe in limited forms of physical resistance are not bloodthirsty men. In fact, many are actually acting to [i]preserve[/i] life. The two police officers who shot the Muslim shooter at Fort Hood did not want to kill him. In fact, they did NOT kill the guy. They simply wanted to put an end to the killing on that base. With this in mind, they were quite successful. They physically resisted the shooter by shooting him. As a result, the killer couldn't kill any more people. I imagine that, if you were to speak with any of the officers involved, they will say the same thing -- that they don't want to be shoot. However, they do so when they feel a need that is greater than the result of doing nothing.

In this context, we need to be careful about condemning such people to Hell. That is what we are doing with hasty words that echo our views rather than admitting that there are differing views on this matter. Using your same analogy, I think that we need to be careful not to separate the wheat and the tares ourselves. Let the Lord do it as He is the only righteous judge.

C
ChrisJD

This is a very difficult subject to wrestle with and I think it can be hard for any of us to understand everything involved. I for one have had a difficult time understanding these things.



I feel that it is incorrect to quote this verse in such a context when we know that this commandment of God was not directed at people who were in the military or those who were acting in defense of someone else.


I agree with Chris, but let me say first that I understand too why others may object and I believe I can understand why others do not accept that certain kinds of violence are not always wrong.

But as Chris mentioned, I don't think that the commandment in Exodus 20:13 is referring to killing that is done in wars or by governments in enforcing laws. Both of those are also part of the same Old Testament Law.


I think what is forbiden is [b]unjust killing[/b].


When David heard that Joab his General had killed Abner, who had been General to Saul, David said

"I and my kingdom [i]are[/i] guiltless before the LORD for ever from the blood of Abner the son of Ner"


David had done nothing to provoke or encourage this and had only ever been carefull to preserve the life of Saul and to not take the kingdom from him.


And perhaps in the same setting, or line of events(I could be wrong in remembering this or connecting the two) Shimei(who was related to Saul) when he saw that David's kingdom was being divided from him by his son Absalom, came and was accusing and taunting David, saying,


"Come out, come out, thou bloody man, and thou man of Belial: The LORD hath returned upon thee all the blood of the house of Saul, in whose stead thou hast reigned..."


Shimei was partly right in his accusation; [b]but not for the reason he stated[/b].

David had done no wrong to Saul or his kingdom, but a sword had come into David's house, not for blood he had shed in battle, but for the blood of Uriah, who he had unjustly and wickedly killed(2Sa 12:9-10).

And so again, I think that the Bible makes a distinction between killing in general, and [b]unjust killing[/b], which is what I believe is prohibited in the commandment in Exodus 20:13.


That said, I think it can be noted too, that when David went to fulfill his desire to build a House for God, the Lord refused him, because he had been involved in many great wars and in the shedding of much blood(see 1Chronicles 22:7-8).

And so I think it is rightly stated that the Church(as a whole and as a public and visible entity) should not be associated with wars and with the violence and fighting in the earth.

The Lord's house was to be built in a time of peace(during the reign of Solomon). And peace should be the conspicous and prevading element whenever the Church is visibly and publicly seen in the world.

A good reason why Chaplins, serving consipicoulsy and openly in the Name of Christ and as agents of the Church, do not themselves carry weapons.

C
chapel

“Concerning the Sword”: A Hutterian Apologia of 1577
[Article IV of the Great Article Book]

EDITED BY LEONARD GROSS*
TRANSLATED BY ELIZABETH HORSCH BENDER, ET AL.

This translation first appeared in the January 2009 issue of the
Mennonite Quarterly Review.


11
Isaiah and Micah, two prophets, prophesy thus about the house and church of Christ: “Then the law will go forth from Zion and the word of
the Lord from Jerusalem. He shall administer justice among the nations and arbitrate among many peoples, so that they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks, sickles and saws; no more will a nation take up arms against another nation nor will they learn war any more” (Isa. 2:[3-4]; Mic. 4:[2-3]). See how clearly the people of Christ will be such a peaceable people!

12
“Then the wolf shall live with the sheep, and the leopard lie down with the kid; the calf and the young lion shall grow up together, and a
little child shall lead them; the cow and the bear shall be friends, and

9. Rom. 13:3.
10. Text reads: Ps. 45.

their young shall lie down together. The lion shall eat straw like cattle.
No one will harm or destroy another in my entire holy mountain” (Isa. 11:[6-9]; 65;[25]). That is how it will be in Christ, the branch of the tree of Jesse. And so he is saying that even the wolves will become friendly animals like sheep.

13
“These are the words of the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: ‘Come back, keep peace, and you will be safe. But you would have none of it’;
you said, ‘No, we will take horse and flee; therefore you shall be put to flight: We will ride apace; therefore swift shall be the pace of your pursuers’” (Isa. 30:[15-16]). Likewise false Christians even today continue to disobey and say the same things. Therefore the same thing will happen to them.

14
“Where previously dragons dwelt, reeds and rushes will grow. . . . No lion shall come there, no savage beast climb onto it, but one shall walk freely and safely” (Isa. 35:[7,9]). Dragons and beasts of prey that bare their teeth at one another and dare to eat another represent the poisonous, tyrannical people who use the sword and have swords for teeth (Prov. 30:[14]); they will no longer exist in the kingdom of Christ.

15
“All your children shall be taught by God, to whom I shall give abiding peace. In righteousness you shall be established, dwelling far away from violence” (Isa. 54:[13-14]).

16
“I will appoint Peace as your overseer and Righteousness as your taskmaster. The sound of violence shall no more be heard in your land, nor devastation or destruction within your borders” (Isa. 60:[17-18]); for all your peoples will fear God.

17
“The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like cattle, but the food of the snake shall be dust. No one shall
harm or kill another in my entire holy mountain, says the Lord” (Isa. 65:[25]). So where there is beating, lashing, stabbing, shooting, injuring
one another, laying to ruin, quarreling, fighting, killing and shedding blood, that is the devil’s ungodly and unclean mountain and Lucifer’s place. For just as one recognizes the kingdom of Christ and his disciples by their love, peace and unity, so also the devil’s kingdom by the wrangling, quarreling and warring of those who take after Cain.

18
Jeremiah the prophet says: “Thus says the
Lord: . . . Tell the king and the mighty: ‘Give up your power and be like the common people, for
your proud crowns will fall from your heads’” (Jer. 13:[18]). All the more must this take place today in Christendom if they want to repent and become Christians.

19
Ezekiel prophesied: “Behold, it comes; it shall be, says the Lord God, the day of which I have spoken. The dwellers in the cities of Israel shall come out and gather weapons to light their fires, buckler and shield, bow and arrows, throwing-stick and lance, and they shall kindle fires with them for seven years. They will not need to take wood from the field or cut down any in the forests. They will have enough weapons to light their fires” (Ezek. 39:[8-10]). How then can the people of Christ be rulers who use weapons of vengeance, when the people of Christ have rooted out and stopped using weapons of wrath and of vengeance, lifelong?
(That is the meaning of the seven years). If weapons of bloodshed are to be rooted out and burned, what will become of those who cannot make
enough of them?

20
Daniel prophesies concerning the end-time, the time of the Antichrist, that those who are willing to acknowledge his God will prevail and lead the way. And so the wise among God’s people will give the church understanding and will have to struggle for a long time through fire, through prison and through robbery.11 Note here who the ruler will be; note also that the wise will fall victim to the sword and fire—not that
they will kill anyone, or use the sword, or take vengeance.12

11. Dan. 11:32-33.
12. This is the theme of the so-called theology

of martyrdom of the Anabaptists, expecting and accepting suffering and persecution as something unavoidable in this world.
The Anabaptists found the biblical foundation for this already in the Book of Daniel. See
Robert Friedmann, “Martyrdom, Theology of,” ME 3:519-521.

21
Hosea writes that the Lord says: “I will have pity on the house of Judah, and I will deliver them by the Lord their God; I will not deliver
them by bow, nor by sword, nor by war, nor by horses, nor by horsemen” (Hos. 1:[7]). “I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land; and I will make them dwell in safety.”13

22
“O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help. Where are your kings who were to help you in all your cities? Where are your
rulers and protectors who were to save you? For you said, ‘Give us a king and prince.’ In my anger I gave you a king, and in my fury I took
him away” (Hos. 13:[9-11]). Thus God gave men rulers simply out of anger as is seen here in Israel’s case. “For the Lord said: ‘It is I whom
they have rejected, I whom they will not accept as their king.’”14 Because they then forsook God and wanted to have a king like all the nations, he gave them one and fulfilled their desire, to their own harm, so that his Spirit would not always have to contend with men, for they were flesh (Gen. 6:[3]). What God ordered and gave in wrath is neither fitting nor appropriate in Christ, in whom there is blessing and mercy, and the child of blessing cannot be the servant of wrath and revenge. For God’s intention for us was not to inherit wrath, but to inherit blessedness through Jesus Christ (1 Thess. 5:[9]).

23
Jonah the prophet began by going a day’s journey into the city of Nineveh, proclaiming to the Ninevites: “‘In forty days Nineveh shall be
overthrown!’ And the people of Nineveh believed God’s word. They proclaimed a public fast and put on sackcloth from the greatest to the least of them. When the news reached the king of Nineveh he rose from his throne, stripped off his robes of state, put on sackcloth and sat in
ashes. Then he issued a proclamation to all of Nineveh: ‘By the decree of the king and his nobles, let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything; let them not taste food, or graze, or drink water, but let man

13. Hos. 2:18.
14. 1 Sam. 8:7.

and beast be covered with sackcloth and call on God without ceasing. Let everyone turn from his evil ways and his habitual acts of arrogance and
violence. It may be that God will again be gracious, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we not perish’” (Jon. 3:[4-9]). And that is what happened. The only sign that will be given this wicked and adulterous generation, said Christ, is the sign of Jonah;15 if they want to repent they must descend from their thrones and forsake worldly pomp and splendor. How, then, is a Christian to ascend the throne in the first
place?

24
Zechariah says: “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion, be glad, daughter of Jerusalem; for see, your king, the Just One, the Savior, is coming to you. He is humble and lowly, riding on an ass, on a foal, the young of a she-ass. He shall banish chariots of war from Ephraim and war horses from Jerusalem; the warrior’s bow shall be banished. He shall proclaim laws of peace to the nations and his rule shall extend from sea
to sea, from the River to the ends of the earth” (Zech. 9:[9-10]).

25
Ezra the prophet, upon receiving from God the secret knowledge of the end-time (how it will be with Christ and his followers), says: “I saw a
man who waxed strong with the clouds of heaven; wherever he turned his eyes, all things they fell upon trembled. And whenever a voice
proceeded from his mouth, all that heard him were burned up like dry kindling that is ignited. Then I saw that many people assembled, so many that no one could count them. They came from the four winds of heaven to make war on the man who arose out of the sea. Then he hewed out a high mountain and flew on to it. Then I saw that all who had assembled to make war on him were terrified, and yet they dared to fight. But when he saw the attack and the violence of the crowd, however, he raised neither hand nor blade (note, neither hand nor blade) indeed, no weapon at all; but he blew a blast like fire from his mouth, and from his lips a flame, and from his tongue a storm of sparks. All these things combined, and fell with fury upon the people that had armed themselves to attack him, and consumed them with fire, so that

15. Mt. 12:39.

nothing was to be seen but dust and ashes and smoke. Then I saw the same man descend from the mountain and call unto himself another, peaceable people” (note, Christ will call and prepare a peaceable people for himself—not like the first Israelites, but one that like him, raises neither hand, sword nor any other weapon), “and many nations came to him; some were joyful, some fearful, some enslaved, and they were brought before him” (2 Esd. 13:[3-12]).

This was interpreted to Ezra thus: “The man whom you saw is the one whom God Most High has kept for a long time; he will himself set his creation free;”16 truly the Son of God will be revealed and will punish the nations that have assembled for their wickedness. He will, without
exertion, simply destroy them through the word that is likened unto the fire (Heb. 4:[12]), which Paul calls the sword of the Spirit (Eph. 6:[17]), and John in Revelation calls the sword of his mouth (Rev. 1:[16]; 19:[15]).

The peaceable nation, however, is the ten tribes that Salmanasser, the King of Assyria, led away captive from their homeland. Hereby, by way
of hidden allegory, he indicates the people of Christ in the end time, who have been ensnared into Babylonian and Assyrian captivity and released by Christ, and will henceforth be peacemakers and a peaceable people who will never engage in warfare, the shedding of blood, secular courts, or the use of the sword or violence.

Continued:

C
chapel

“Concerning the Sword”: A Hutterian Apologia of 1577
[Article IV of the Great Article Book]

EDITED BY LEONARD GROSS*
TRANSLATED BY ELIZABETH HORSCH BENDER, ET AL.

This translation first appeared in the January 2009 issue of the
Mennonite Quarterly Review.

26
Christ, the Prince of Peace (Isa. 9:[6]), teaches us this Gospel, saying:
“Blessed are the meek, blessed are the merciful, blessed are the peacemakers, blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake” (Mt. 5:[5, 7, 9, 10]).
From this it follows that the arrogant and surly are unchristian and unblessed, the
unmerciful are unblessed, the war makers and those who quarrel are unblessed, those who cause persecution are unblessed. For that reason, whoever exercises the office of the sword cannot be in Christ. Whoever carries the sword at his side is not a peacemaker but a combat maker.

27
16. 2 Esd. 2:26. This book is missing in all Protestant Bibles, but is found at the end of
the complete Latin Vulgate. It has to do with a late-Jewish apocalypse, around A.D. 100.
The book is usually included as one of the Jewish pseudo-epigraphs, strongly influenced
by the (Pharisaic) Schamai school. Chapters 3 to 14 are original; chapters 1, 2, 15 and 16 are later Christian additions. The Anabaptists Michael Sattler and Peter Riedemann quote from this book.—Robert Friedmann, “Ezra, IV,” ME 2:283f.

Christ says: “You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill,’” (now this command includes assaulting, for assaulting is killing a heart), “and ‘whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says ‘you fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire” (Mt. 5:[21-22]).
Now, if a Christian is not to be angry with his brother nor call him a fool without deserving eternal fire, how would it be possible for him to wield the sword, even to kill him, or attack anyone in body or soul or help another to do so? No Christian may do this.

But if you say, then nobody could be safe from robbers and enemies:

Answer: What do you and I have to do with the world,17 since we want to be Christians? We are now speaking of true Christians, not of the heathen and Jews. It does not befit a Christian to condemn to death.
These verses do not apply to worldly authorities nor the heathen nor to the Jews, but only to true Christians. For the judgment that Christ has given and commanded us is not
applicable to outsiders who are not members of the church [gmain]. Whoever wants to be
a secular ruler, let him be one, and whoever wants to be a Christian, let the person be a
Christian.
28
Further says Christ: “You have heard that it was said ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you” (the Christians), “Do not resist one who is evil. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also” (that is, rather than avenge yourself and return blow for blow you should suffer still more); “and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well” (Mt. 5:[38-40]).
Now, if Christians did not sue at law, so also has conducting court trials, or being a judge, fallen away of itself and been discontinued in Christendom. All this clearly shows, since he has taken away occasion and cause for a secular court, that he has forbidden and done away with such things among all of his own. He will not have his people of the
New Testament resist evil with revenge, sword and bloodshed. Nor will he have them make a legal demand for corporal punishment—this is expressly forbidden them, for there is to be no eye for an eye or hand for a hand in his church. On the contrary, one must consider whether God’s law has been broken and treat a transgressor in accord with what he deserves, that is, in accord with the Gospel, which has the ban only and

17. 1 Cor. 5:12.

no sword, the force of the keys and not the force of the executioner like the world.
But someone may say, If all of us put away our swords and did what you do and say, who would resist the Turks and enemies?
Answer: If everyone were Christian, it would be God who would resist the enemy. For he alone is the protection of his little church; otherwise they would be devoured by enemies like bread.

29
Further says Christ: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, ‘Love your enemies and speak kindly to those who persecute you; do good to those who hate you’” (Mt. 5:[43-44]). Thus the office of government and the power of the sword is in itself in all matters the contrary and opposite of the words and statements of Christ. Consequently, there can be no Christian government nor can a Christian hold such an office. For it is impossible for two mutually contradictory things to be reconciled. But in the world, which does not live according to God’s will, government is as necessary as daily bread. So we should hold it in honor, and be subject to it in all that is good.

30
Christ teaches his followers to pray to God: “Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors (Mt. 6:[12]; Lk. 11:[4]). The apostle teaches: “Forgive one another. As Christ has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.”18 But if we requite evil and injury with the sword, with killing, with imprisonment and similar revenge, and pray God to forgive us as we forgive these actions, we will be praying for death, for the sword and prison and revenge upon ourselves. That is why Christ says: All who take the sword will perish by the sword, and he who imprisons will be put in prison. That is what such people are asking for and praying for daily, in the Lord’s Prayer. Therefore, he who does not forgive his brother draws the sword upon himself like a senseless madman. He is prescribing his
own punishment and passing sentence upon himself. It does not fit together and is like black and white.

18. Col. 3:13.

31
“Judge not,” says Christ to his followers, “that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce, you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get (Mt. 7:[1-2]). Therefore, the sword, judgment and vengeance can never be mixed into the church, nor can any Christian wield and administer them.

32
Christ says, “Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ I have come to call sinners to repentance” (Mt. 9:[13]).
Therefore Christ wants mercy and grace on earth among his people, and not wrath and the sword. For Christians are not to nurse anger or hatred toward anyone on earth, not to mention protecting oneself with the sword. For in heaven there is neither envy nor hatred. For if there were envy and hatred in heaven, the earth would long since have perished,
the sea long since drained away, and there would not be a drop of blood left on earth. But because it is the nature of heaven to do good to those who injure them, so Christ wants his people to take on that kind of manner and nature. Therefore he has taught us to pray: “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”

33
Christ is the Lamb of God (Jn. 1:[29]) and was led like a lamb to the slaughter (Isa. 53:[7]). A lamb never tears a wolf to pieces. Therefore he says to his people, “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of savage wolves; so be wise as the serpent,”19 which offers itself up and heeds little how its body is cut up as long as its head remains whole. We likewise are to care little about the loss of other things, even our bodies, if only we keep our faith, which is the head and the root. We should therefore be like amiable, nonresistant and long-suffering lambs, and for that reason we are called sheep (Jn. 10). But those who are armed with horns and have the characteristics of goats are called goats (Mt. 25), and are the ungodly who are equipped for butting back.

34
“Do not fear those who kill the body, but who cannot kill the soul” (Mt. 10:[28]). If there were supposed to be a government wielding the sword in the Christian church of God as there is today in the false Christendom of the world, Christ would hardly have needed to speak

19. Mt. 10:16.

those words. For Christians could then have fled behind the sword and fought back and struck the enemy’s throat as quickly as the enemy could strike theirs. But the words actually declare that Christians (true Christians I mean) are killed, tortured, imprisoned and persecuted in the world. But they absolutely never kill, or imprison or persecute
anyone.
How then could they be secular rulers?

35
All the Evangelists testify that Christ prophesied of the Christians:
“They will deliver you up to the councils, and flog you in their synagogues, and they will drag you before governors and kings for my sake” (Mt. 10:[17-18]; Mt. 24:[9]; Lk. 21:[12]). “They will put you out of the synagogues; indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is doing service to God” (Jn. 16:[2]). Note again whether rulers can be Christians. For this is happening today just as in earlier times.

36
Christ gives the apostles in his church the power of the keys, as he says to Peter: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven (Mt. 16:[19]). Likewise he says to all of them: “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (Mt. 18:[15-18];20 Jn. 20:[22-23]). This power Christ gave his apostles and his church. But the power of the sword he did not
give to any apostle or disciple, nor to anyone in his church. You would have to search until you died to find it in the New Testament. The ban, ordained for the church of Christ, and the sword, ordained for the world, are as different as night and day; they are as incomprehensibly different as life and death. Hence they cannot be combined.

The power of the keys, the Christian ban, removes from the church what is evil (1 Cor. 5:[5]). The worldly sword removes completely from the earth. The Christian punishment is love, indeed, a brotherly reproof; the punishment of the sword is wrath and ruthlessness. After the ban of Christians one can repent; but after the sword or worldly justice, penitence and reform are forever cut off. The ministers of the keys are the vessels of mercy, the ministers of the worldly sword are the vessels of wrath (Rom. 9:[16-18]; Hos. 13:[11]). He who applies and holds the power of the keys over the Christian brotherhood banishes greed and private ownership. He who holds the power of the sword over greed and property (Acts 5:1; 1 Cor. 5:[1-13]) has his own land and people; hence

20. Text reads: Mt. 28.

from time immemorial the power of the sword has been identified by the name, “the worldly government.” That is why its office cannot be fitted into the unadulterated Christian church. For each walks its own way; the paths go in opposite directions and never meet.

37
In the parable of the tares, when the servants said: “Do you want us to go and pull them out?” the Lord answered: “No, lest in gathering the tares you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest” (Mt. 13:[28-29]). Christ said this because he wanted to prevent wars and bloodshed among his people, as almost the entire fifth chapter of Matthew shows. He does not forbid removing the evildoers and tares from his church by the power of the keys, but removing them with the sword. Killing
and executing them is what he forbids, lest the tares that might still be transformed into good grain be thereby cut off.

38
Christ says to his disciples: “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me” (Mt. 16:[24]). He does not say “take up the sword,” for the sword has absolutely no place next to the cross, and Christ cannot agree with Belial. Hence the worldly sword and the cross of Christ are as alike as Christ and Pilate. They get along together like wolves and sheep in one stall. The friends of the sword cannot be anything but enemies of Christ’s cross. And the teaching of the sword is contrary to the teaching of the cross, which must be witnessed to by bearing the cross and not with fighting back. To bear the cross is to accept suffering and sorrow, and even persecution, with patience. The sword does not suffer anything, but terminates everything in its path. Christians are counted as sheep for the slaughter.21 The sword is what kills them.

39
When the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” Jesus called a child and put him in the midst of them: “Truly I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven” (Mt. 18:[1-3]). With this he wants to forbid, and remove from among his disciples, all rulership, domination, violence, sword and wrongdoing. For the souls of small

21. Ps. 44:23; Rom. 8:36; 2 Cor. 4:11.

children are pure of all temptations; they desire no revenge upon those who have injured them but, as if nothing had happened, they turn back to the people as to their friends. Yes, what child is greater than another? If a thousand were together, not one of them would know of a lord, a master or a mayor; they are all on the same level and none is special as long as they are children.

Therefore, we as God’s children need to be and become like innocent children, without domination, without vengeance, without pride, not domineering, not vengeful, not pompous—all these things standing in the way of our salvation. Take note, secular authorities! If you ask whether you can be Christians, the answer is given by the Son of God himself: “Unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” That has to take place; you must demonstrate a turning if you want to be Christians.

40
The Lord became very angry at the man who seized his fellow man by the throat and threw him into prison for the debt that he owed. The Lord called him a wicked servant and delivered him to the torturers (Mt. 18:[23-34]). With this parable he declares that he does not want such a thing among his people in Christendom.

Continued:

C
chapel

“Concerning the Sword”: A Hutterian Apologia of 1577
[Article IV of the Great Article Book]

EDITED BY LEONARD GROSS*
TRANSLATED BY ELIZABETH HORSCH BENDER, ET AL.

This translation first appeared in the January 2009 issue of the
Mennonite Quarterly Review.

41
When the two sons of Zebedee appealed to Christ and asked to be
seated in his kingdom, the one to his right and the other to his left (Mt.
20:[20-21]), thus wanting the upper and most honorable seats (since they
understood it to be a worldly and temporal kingdom because they were
still immature), Christ deflected them away from that desire and warned
them of the sweat, struggle and suffering to come, that they would have
to drink his cup and be baptized with his baptism. Hence Christians
cannot occupy governmental positions, but must drink the cup of
suffering on earth (Mt. 26:[39]) and be baptized with the baptism of
anxiety (Lk. 12:[50]).

42
Jesus called his disciples and said to them: “You know that secular
rulers lord it over the nations and their great men coerce them, but it
shall not be so among you” (Mt. 20:[25-26]; Lk. 22:[25-26]). You see, he
thereby ties a firm knot that cannot be untied or undone. For he mentions the
government and the lords of the world and says expressly,
“It shall not be so among you, my people. The overlords proceed with
coercion; it shall not be so among you; whoever will be great among you
must be your servant; whoever will be the most prestigious among you
must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to
serve” (Mk. 10:[42-43]). There will always be a flawed, earthly splendor,
and it would be not at all fitting, when Christ lived as a poor slave, for us
disciples to desire to be “gracious lords.”

Therefore, in Christendom it shall not be like the rulers of this world
who have authority on earth, each one above the other. One is the chief
marshal, another the deputy marshal, another the mayor, another the
chancellor, another this, another that. “It shall not be so among you,”
says Christ. With this statement Christ does not abolish temporal
government, but leaves it in the world. He abolishes it from among his
disciples and Christians; they shall not use force nor have jurisdiction
over life and death. There shall therefore be as little worldly lordship
among them as there is in heaven—that is to say, there is to be none at all
among Christians on the earth. For if Lucifer had to be cast out because
he wanted to be above others in heaven, how much more will those be
cast out on earth who are guilty of such heathen deeds, which means
they cannot be Christians.

Luke says that those in authority over them are called “gracious
lords,” but it must not be so among you (Lk. 22:[25-26]). For nothing
leads to pride like the desire to rule and be the chief; great abominations
have sprung from this, for human honors and prestige lead to much
more that is shameful. Wanton honor makes men puffed up,
irresponsible blasphemers and hypocrites. Splendor removes the bridle
from their eyes and opens to them the door to hell, as if in a violent
storm their spirit were turned around, overturning their boat into the
depths of the water.

But it is not our will or intention to abolish temporal government or to
be disobedient in all good and proper things. For there shall and must be
government on earth among men, just as a schoolteacher must have a
rod for disobedient children. For since the world and heathen nations do
not fear God, nor allow themselves to be ruled by his Spirit and are thus
without God’s order, government with the sword is prescribed among
them to be feared, as children fear the teacher’s rod, to prevent complete
chaos, and the earth from becoming completely stained with blood. The
world still needs to preserve a worldly piety, like a horse in an
emergency stall, a wolf in a pit, or a lion and bear on a chain.

43
Christ calls worldly government and force the gates of hell (Mt.
16:[18]).22 For just as Christ is the door and gate to God’s kingdom,23 they
are called the gates of hell. As one can see, if the king, prince or authority
is papist, then his subjects must also be papist; if he becomes Lutheran,
they must also become Lutheran; if he is Zwinglian, they must also be
Zwinglian; and what the government believes, its land and people must
also believe. They enforce this with the sword, the hangman, fire and
water, tower and dungeon, and so it happens that one believes in order
to please another and goes with the crowd; everyone believes whatever
his lord wishes. According to how the wind blows for the ruler, that is
the direction the world takes, entering through such gates of hell with an
ungodly, wicked life. That is why Christ also calls it the power of
darkness (Lk. 22:[53]); Paul calls it the dominion of darkness, and the
rulers of the present darkness in this world against whom the God-
fearing must contend (Col. 1:[13]; Eph. 6:[12]).24

44
“If anyone will not receive you, leave the place,” says Christ, “and
shake the dust from your feet” in response (Mt. 10:[14]). See, Christians
have this command. It does not say, proceed against them with the
sword (like the greedy false prophets, teachers of war, and doctors of
hangmen [i.e., learned judges] and priests of this world are wont to do);
for nowhere is there a word about the apostles or Christ laying violent
hands on anyone, but violent hands are laid on them. No one should
dare to fight with the sword for the sake of his faith or God’s justice, for
if God wanted that, and rods and violence had to be used, he would no
doubt send down from heaven his legion of angels. Therefore, those who
falsely attempt to spread the kingdom of God on earth by force are
acting contrary to God’s command and example. For it is not given to all
(2 Thess. 3:[2]), but only to the chosen; we do not call compelled people
believers. When John the Baptist came,25 he did not strike at the people
with a sword but said, “Bear fruits that befit repentance.”26

22. Text reads: Mt. 6.
23. Jn. 10:7, 9.
24. This paragraph is a clear reference to the practice of cuius regio eius religio (whose
region, his religion) which granted each territorial ruler the right to determine the religion
of the land—a principle proposed at the Diet of Speyer in 1526 and confirmed in the Peace
of Augsburg in 1555.
25. Jn. 3:23.
26. Mt. 3:8 and elsewhere.

45
When the Pharisees tempted him and showed him the tax coin, the
Lord said, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and to God the
things that are God’s” (Mt. 22:[21]). Therefore it is Christ’s will that his
people, in subjection to worldly authority, give and offer its dues—what
belongs to it—for the sake of its office and God’s order. We may give it
its due, and what belongs to God we are to give to God. But if men
tamper with God’s word and glory, acting contrary to it, we must
faithfully keep that for God. For governments are lords only over what is
physical, not over word and Spirit. That is why Paul also says, “Give all
men their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue
is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due”
(Rom. 13:[7]). But if you hear that you should give the emperor the
things that are the emperor’s, you should know without a doubt that the
things are to be understood as only those that do not sully the faith, and
that do not injure piety and religion or the conscience. For whatever is
detrimental to faith and virtue is tribute paid not to the emperor but to
the devil. For slaying and killing is the nature and work of the devil; he
was a murderer from the beginning (Jn. 8:[44]) and instigates wars in the
world. A Christian cannot assist in this, for we have the reputation that
we are called Christians. And since we bear the name of Christ, we are to
do absolutely nothing that is contrary to a Christian life.

46
“When his disciples entered a village in Samaria to spend the night at
an inn, and the people refused to admit them, his disciples James and
John said, ‘Lord, do you want us to bid fire come down from heaven and
consume them, as Elijah did?’ Then Jesus turned and rebuked them and
said, ‘Do you not know what manner of spirit you are of? For the Son of
Man came not to destroy men’s lives but to save them’” (Lk. 9:[54-55]; 2
Kings 1:[10]). Hence, his followers cannot destroy anyone. Not many
words are needed; it is obvious that revenge has no place in the kingdom
of Christ and that a Christian can neither engage in warfare and revenge
nor contribute to such activities. How then can he hold a government
office? Whoever does so has forsaken and denied Christ and Christ’s
way.
It does no good for you to say, David was a king and many pious men
have exercised the power of the sword and gone to war. When the
disciples cited Elijah as an example, Christ rebuked them, refusing to
allow it, and said: “Do you not know what manner of spirit you are of?”
Therefore you cannot say: He who had the Spirit of God has also the
Spirit of Christ. For here Christ admonishes the disciples to distinguish
between his Spirit and that of Elijah or of the people of the Old
Testament, between the spirit of Christians and that of the world (Ps.
51:[12]). Therefore Paul says, “We have received not the spirit of the
world, but the Spirit which is from God” (1 Cor. 2:[12]). Christ says that
the world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, because it neither sees nor
knows him. “But you,” he says, “know him, for he dwells with you and
will be in you” (Jn. 14:[17]).

Herein can one recognize the Spirit of God: the fruit of the Spirit (says
Paul) is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
gentleness, self-control (Gal. 5:[22-23]). The fruit of the spirit of the world
is hatred, disunity, enmity, strife, envy, wrath, fighting, quarreling,
divisions, murder, drunkenness, gluttony and the like. The Holy Spirit
loathes and flees from hypocrites who merely pretend to be disciplined
and wise (Wis. 1:[5]). Where evil takes the upper hand, the Spirit departs
and refuses to constantly bicker with them. But the spirit of the world
loathes those who withdraw from evil and hates those who no longer go
along with its unruly crowd (Gen. 6:[3]).

The spirit of Christians is a steadfastly gentle and quiet spirit (1 Pet.
3:[4]); the spirit of the world is a fickle, rough spirit of gambling and
poltergeists, yes, a vengeful spirit. But the Lord is not there; he is neither
with it nor in it; the Lord showed the prophet Elijah an indication of this
difference when he bade him go to the mountaintop. Then the Lord
passed by, and “a great and strong wind rent the mountain and broke in
pieces the rocks before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind; and
after the wind came an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the
earthquake; and after the earthquake came a fire, but the Lord was not in
the fire; and after the fire there came a still small voice”—and there was
the Lord (1 Kings 19:[11-12]).

Christians have a new heart and a new spirit that God gives and
implants in their innermost being (Ps. 68; Ezek. 11:[19]; 36:[26]). And all
drink of one Spirit (1 Cor. 12:[13]). But old wineskins that cannot hold
the new wine27 and do not have Christ’s Spirit are not his (Rom. 8:[9]).
Therefore we have to distinguish and note whose spirit we are children
of:28 not of the world, or of the spirit of evil, who is now at work in the

27. Mt. 9:17 and elsewhere.
28. Lk. 9:55.

children of unbelief, among whom we all once lived according to the will
of the flesh and of reason (Eph. 2:[3]), but of Christ’s Spirit, yea, the Spirit
of the New Testament that practices no vengeance or destruction of
human souls, but always seeks their salvation and preservation.

47
When one of the multitude said to Jesus, “Master, bid my brother
divide the inheritance with me,” Jesus said to him, “Man, who has made
me a judge or divider over you?” (Lk. 12:[13-14]). It was as though he
meant to say, “In what way does your quarreling over temporal things
concern me? I did not come and was not sent to judge such matters.” For
whoever seeks earthly things does not seek what is in Christ, and
therefore cannot get a ruling from him. Likewise no pupil or disciple of
his who wants to be Christian can hold a judicial office or be a judge over
temporal things. But he who dares to do this does not have the mind of
Christ but the mind of the world. The apostle, however, says, “We have
the mind of Christ” (1 Cor. 2:[16]).

48
When Jesus perceived that the people were about to come and take
him by force to make him king, he escaped and fled (Jn. 6:[15]). He did
this in part as a precedent and example for us. For he who has chosen all
the simple things (1 Cor. 1:[27-28])—mother, home, fatherland, food,
clothing—yes, also calls the simple and lowly of the world; for what is
exalted among men is an abomination to God (Lk. 16:[15]). And so he
also desires that we follow in his footsteps. For, as the apostle says, those
whom he called he has predestined to be conformed to the image of his
son (Rom. 8:[29]). Whoever acts otherwise reviles the footsteps of
Christ.29 From this it is clear that the man who wants to be a worldly
ruler does not have the Spirit of Christ. If he does not have the Spirit of
Christ, he is by no means a Christian; if he had the Spirit, he would leave
the office, since no Christian can be a worldly ruler. But if you want to be
a king, I will show you a realm—govern yourself, keep yourself under
good control, and you will be a true king. For he who can govern and
conquer himself is the greatest and most powerful of kings.

49
Christ refused to condemn to death or pass judgment on the woman
caught in adultery (Jn. 8:[11]) although the law upholds such judgment.
Neither can a Christian do so with God’s approval even though the
office of the ruler demands it. For “just as the Father sent me into the
world,” says Christ, “so send I you.”30 If Christ was not sent into the
world to reign as a worldly king, prince or lord, or an authority using
force, sword and splendor, much less are we. For he says, “the servant
shall not be greater than his lord, nor the messenger than he who sent
him” (Jn. 13:[16]); it is enough if he is like his master.

Continued:

C
ChrisJD

[i]Hi everyone. Want to reiterate before continuing that my contributions here are not intended to encourage or pursade anyone to participate in war or civil governments.[/i]

Continuing from the article titled [i]Resist Not Evil--Jesus Commanded It--How Far Does It
Go[/i]


Question: How can a Christian participate in acts of war without defiling the Temple of God; using their bodies to kill and mutilate human beings, and also putting their own bodies in jeopardy of severe injury or death, therefore defiling the Temple of God? How can it be even imaginable that the holy Temple of God be involved in acts of war?

What comes to mind from these questions is the presence of the Ark of the Covenant in battle, for instance at Jericho(Joshua 6:1-21). If the objection here is that every war is inherently evil and any participation in it is unholy - yet God is seen in the Bible so closely connected with it.


And as was pointed, the Preacher wrote that there is a time for both war and peace(Ecc 3:8). I do not think he meant by that a time to be unholy.

S
sermonindex

Should Christians - Or Ministers - Run For Office?
John Witherspoon
Today's critics assert that Christians should not be involved with politics or government, and especially that ministers should not be involved. Such opposition is not new. In fact, two centuries ago, Founding Father John Witherspoon delivered a sagacious rebuttal to these same objections.


Courtesy: Independent National Historical Park
John Witherspoon (1723-1794) was a distinguished Founding Father - the president of Princeton University, a signer of the Declaration of Independence, and a ratifier of the U.S. Constitution. He served on over 100 committees in Congress and was head of the Board of War (essentially, he was the congressional "boss" for Commander-in-Chief George Washington). But John Witherspoon was also a minister of the Gospel - he was the Rev. Dr. John Witherspoon! In fact, Dr. Witherspoon was the Billy Graham of his day - one of the most famous American ministers of that era, with volumes of published Gospel sermons.

A provision in the 1777 Georgia constitution reflected the belief that ministers should not be involved in politics. Supporters of this provision asserted the ministry of the Gospel was so important that ministers should not be distracted from their duty. (For example, the 1777 New York Constitution explained, "Whereas ministers of the Gospel are, by their profession, dedicated to the service of God and the care of souls and ought not to be diverted from the great duties of their function; therefore, no minister of the gospel . . . shall be eligible to . . . any civil office within this State.") Following this same logic, the Georgia constitution declared, "No clergyman of any denomination shall be allowed a seat in the legislature."

When Dr. Witherspoon learned of this prohibition, he penned the following tongue-in-cheek piece exposing the absurdity of that position. Interestingly, when Georgia wrote its third Constitution in 1798, a strong declaration of the rights of religious persons was inserted - a vast change from its first Constitution.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Following is Dr. Witherspoon's writing on why ministers should be able to serve in State legislatures:

Sir,

In your paper of Saturday last, you have given us the new Constitution of Georgia, in which I find the following resolution, "No clergyman of any denomination shall be a member of the General Assembly.'' I would be very well satisfied that some of the gentlemen who have made that an essential article of this constitution, or who have inserted and approve it in other constitutions, would be pleased to explain a little the principles, as well as to ascertain the meaning of it.

Perhaps we understand pretty generally, what is meant by a clergyman, viz. a person regularly called and set apart to the ministry of the gospel, and authorized to preach and administer the sacraments of the Christian religion. Now suffer me to ask this question: Before any man among us was ordained a minister, was he not a citizen of the United States, and if being in Georgia, a citizen of the state of Georgia? Had he not then a right to be elected a member of the assembly, if qualified in point of property? How then has he lost, or why is he deprived of this right? Is it by offence or disqualification? Is it a sin against the public to become a minister? Does it merit that the person, who is guilty of it should be immediately deprived of one of his most important rights as a citizen? Is not this inflicting a penalty which always supposes an offence? Is a minister then disqualified for the office of a senator or representative? Does this calling and profession render him stupid or ignorant? I am inclined to form a very high opinion of the natural understanding of the freemen and freeholders of the state of Georgia, as well as of their improvement and culture by education, and yet I am not able to conceive, but that some of those equally qualified, may enter into the clerical order: and then it must not be unfitness, but some other reason that produces the exclusion. Perhaps it may be thought that they are excluded from civil authority, that they may be more fully and constantly employed in their spiritual functions. If this had been the ground of it, how much more properly would it have appeared, as an order of an ecclesiastical body with respect to their own members. In that case I should not only have forgiven but approved and justified it; but in the way in which it now stands, it is evidently a punishment by loss of privilege, inflicted on those, who go into the office of the ministry; for which, perhaps, the gentlemen of Georgia may have good reasons, though I have not been able to discover them.

But besides the uncertainty of the principle on which this resolution is founded, there seems to me much uncertainty as to the meaning of it. How are we to determine who is or is not a clergyman? Is he only a clergyman who has received ordination from those who have derived the right by an uninterrupted succession from the apostles? Or is he also a clergyman, who is set apart by the imposition of hands of a body of other clergymen, by joint authority? Or is he also a clergyman who is set a part by the church members of his own society, without any imposition of hands at all? Or is he also a clergyman who has exhorted in a Methodist society, or spoken in a Quaker meeting, or any other religious assembly met for public worship? There are still greater difficulties behind: Is the clerical character indelible? There are some who have been ordained who occasionally perform some clerical functions, but have no pastoral charge at all. There are some who finding public speaking injurious to health, or from other reasons easily conceived, have resigned their pastoral charge, and wholly discontinued all acts and exercises of that kind; and there are some, particularly in New England, who having exercised the clerical office some time, and finding it less suitable to their talents than they apprehended, have voluntarily relinquished it, and taken to some other profession, as law, physic, or merchandize[sic]--Do these all continue clergymen, or do they cease to be clergymen, and by that cessation return to, or recover the honorable privileges of laymen?

I cannot help thinking that these difficulties are very considerable, and may occasion much litigation, if the article of the constitution stands in the loose, ambiguous form in which it now appears; and therefore I would recommend the following alterations, which I think will make every thing definite and unexceptionable.

"No clergyman, of any denomination, shall be capable of being elected a member of the Senate or House of Representatives, because {here insert the grounds of offensive disqualification, which I have not been able to discover} Provided always, and it is the true intent and meaning of this part of the constitution, that if at any time he shall be completely deprived of the clerical character by those by whom he was invested with it, as by deposition for cursing and swearing, drunkenness or uncleanness, he shall then be fully restored to all the privileges of a free citizen; his offence shall no more be remembered against him; but he may be chosen either to the Senate or House of Representatives, and shall be treated with all the respect due to his brethren, the other members of Assembly."

(Source: John Witherspoon, The Works of John Witherspoon, (Edinburgh: J. Ogle, Parliament-Square, 1815), Vol. IX, pp 220-223.)

C
ChrisJD

The governments of the world are "ordained" by God, but ordained simply means appointed; that doesn't mean they are holy and righteous.


Strong's say the word [i]ordained[/i] here means:


G5021
τάσσω
tassō
tas'-so
A prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, that is, assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot): - addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set.


While it can be agreed that no earthly kingdom is righteous or holy as the Kingdom of God, yet each has its own measure of conformity to His will, so more some less, and they are all righteous, or 'right', in that they derive their power from God, and retain it, whether they excercise it rightly or not, untill such time as He sees fit to dispose them of it.

And any institution of God is Holy in an external sense, being that it is of or unto Him.


The censers of Korah and his party were taken as holy(Numbers 16:37-38), and the Lord even calls the foreign king Cyrus, His shepherd(Is 44:28) and His annointed(Is 45:1), who was to be the earthly means of the restoration of His people. [b]A very Holy Purpose[/b].

As for the Christian, we do not nescessarily become unholy by relation to things in this world as it was under the Law.


The Lord Jesus was not defiled by coming into contact with a dead body(Lev 21:1-4, Num 9:6, Luke 7:12-15), because He is Life, and One greater than the Temple was there.


And so also Paul writes of those who, being Christians, were not defiled though they were eating in a place among things being sacrificed unto devils, though they themselves had liberty of conscience to eat it, so long as they did not give others the impression that they appoved of it, or ate as unto those devils also(1Co 10:19-33).

And so also he says, that the children and unbelieving spouse of the believer are sanctified [i]by the believer[/i](1Co 7:14).

C
ChrisJD

Christians are to obey the laws and pay taxes, they are to be good citizens; going about their lives in simplicity and meekness. Christians are to be of low estate, they are not to seek high positions; Paul made that clear in Romans 12:16. "Be of the same mind one toward another, mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits."


A few things here:


There is no lower position in life than to be a slave, and from what others have written, it would appear that the Roman soldier could have been considered a slave to the Roman Goverment.

Yet Paul the Apostle writes elsewhere:


"Art thou called [i]being[/i] a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use [i]it[/i] rather." -1Co 7:21(KJV)


[i]if thou mayest be made free, use it rather[/i]


If the admonition in Romans 12 is that Christians should always and only be of low estate, why then should they ever care to be free, and other than slaves?

But Paul says, [i]use it rather[/i]. An intersting phrase.


The admonition in this passage is not [b]to always and only be of low estate[/b], but to condescend to those who are. Not to think highly of ourselves, or to seperate ourselves from others who are low.

I have for years now spoken with many people that are homeless, and on more than one occasion I have been told how hurt a person has been by the way they have been recieved going into some Church buildings, having to sit in the back, or being made to feel isolated, because of their appearance and conditions.


No, but Paul rather says here before this:


"Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called."

An interesting word to have been read perhaps by someone like Cornelius, who recieved and accepted his invitation to the Kingdom of God while being a servant to the Romans and their armies.

And so, as I read it, the exhoration to "mind not high things" is not to say that we should never have any desire to any place of significance in life nor that we should only desire to be as low and lowly in position as possible. But rather that this applies to the dispostion of our hearts. That these things should not be the focus of our affections and ambitions, especailly so that they make us to forget others, especially those that are low. But rather we should do all things, as he says elsewhere:

as unto God, and to the Glory of God.

If men should not have any desire to anything High, they should not want to be Christians(1Co 6:3, Php 3:14, Rev 1:6, 2:26-27).

But Paul says if a man has [b]an opportunity[/b] to be free, that he should [b]use it[/b].


And so it is that Christians now and at this time may have a great variety of opportunities in this world, and all of which they may possibly use to serve God.


While it may not have been possible, or was more difficult for Chrsitians or Jews to have many high postions in life during the first century, yet people of God have used them for God's purposes before. Esther, or Nehehmiah the king's cupbearer, or such a man as we have read about as William Wilburforce.

I hope that no one will say that his labor and service in British goverment to end slavery there was devilish.

Or made him an infidel.

I hope not. Then again, maybe I'm wrong, and he and otehrs like him were really unbelievers?

C
chapel

“Concerning the Sword”: A Hutterian Apologia of 1577
[Article IV of the Great Article Book]

EDITED BY LEONARD GROSS*
TRANSLATED BY ELIZABETH HORSCH BENDER, ET AL.

This translation first appeared in the January 2009 issue of the
Mennonite Quarterly Review.


50
The government is an outward servant of law, of vengeance. “The
servant does not continue in the house forever,” says Christ (Jn. 8:[35]),
and cannot participate in the joy and inheritance of his master, and be
saved unless he become one of the children. “Cast out this slave woman
with her son,” says the Scripture, “for the son of this slave woman shall
not be heir with my son Isaac” (Gen. 21:[10, 12]; Gal. 4:[30]). Hence they
cannot boast of anything more than citizenship on earth. With the rich
man they are receiving good things here, and have their portion and
their reward in this life,31 and cannot look forward to the hope of heaven
unless they turn away from the slavery of the law and become children
of light and the Gospel, yes, from the worldly to the Christian. For two
heavens they will not be able to have.

51
“My kingdom is not of this world,” said Christ to Pilate, “otherwise
my servants would stand and fight and contend for me” (Jn. 18:[36]).
Thus, our King, Jesus Christ, is a spiritual king and has a spiritual realm.
Therefore his sword must not be physical but spiritual. A spiritual
kingdom cannot employ a physical sword. For worldly rulers wield a
physical sword, since their realm is also physical. Therefore all who
would defend themselves with force and the sword are certainly not of
the realm of Christ. For his servants do not position themselves thus, as
he himself says here. And because his reign is not of this world, but the
government is worldly, the two can neither merge nor be alike. And
those who quarrel, battle and fight for the kingdom of this world
indicate clearly that they are not Christians, for the kingdom of this

30. Jn. 17:18; 20:21.
31. Lk. 16:25.

world is the devil’s realm; he is a prince of this world, as Christ says (Jn.
12:[31]).

52
When they led Jesus to the brow of the hill, and intended to throw
him down headlong, he passed through the midst of them and went
away (Lk. 4:[29-30]). It does not say he attacked them, even though he
often had many people with him, 5,000 and 7,000; he could even have
annihilated them with a word and dried them up like the fig tree. But he
offered no resistance. Paul also tells how he had suffered much at the
hands of those who refused to believe him, namely, five times he
received lashes, and was beaten with rods and stoned. It does not say
that he defended himself even once, or that the churches, some of which
were large, arose and defended or protected themselves with the sword.
Oh no! If the apostles had precipitated an uproar and violently struck
out at Christ’s enemies with the sword and conquered Jerusalem,
compelling everybody to accept their faith, what would that have been
but damnation to their souls. It is therefore a devilish defense and
unchristian.

53
The Holy Spirit came in the form of a dove,32 sent upon the believers
(Acts 2:[4]) not in the form of a griffon or other beast of prey. A dove
(which has no gall or bitterness) does not fall upon a falcon or hawk or
eagle, nor does it attack any other bird. The dove is among birds what
the sheep is among animals, which has no wish to injure any animal, but
is attacked by them—persecuted, attacked and killed by eagles, hawks,
ravens and additional birds of the falcon family and other hostile birds.

54
The Apostle Paul writes that we should not be conformed to this
world, but be transformed by the renewal of our mind (Rom. 12:[2]).
Now the most common characteristic of the world is to bear and use
swords and other weapons of death, which no member of Christ should
do. But government must be conformed to this world if it wants to
govern, and it does whatever is the practice in this world and leads the

32. Mt. 3:16 and elsewhere.

course of the world. Therefore it has the status of temporal power. It is of
the world, yes, the summit of worldly power, of which it is the chief
expression. To this, Christians should not be conformed, as Paul says.
Therefore a Christian cannot be a worldly ruler.

55
“Repay no man evil for evil,” says Paul (Rom. 12:[17]). But it is the
office of government to repay evil for evil.33 “Do not be haughty but be
humble” (Rom. 12:[16]). But the government is very haughty and must
be in a lofty position because it is the government of the world. That is
another reason why no Christian can rule. If possible, so far as it depends
on you, live peaceably with all men. Beloved, avenge not yourselves, but
leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will
repay, says the Lord” (Deut. 32:[35]).34

But worldly authority must avenge itself if it wants to be the
government of the world. That is never the duty of the Christian. On the
contrary, as Paul says further:35 “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he
is thirsty, give him drink” (Rom. 12:[20]). Thus God permits the
Christian no sword or vengeance. For if servants quarrel among
themselves and do not respect their masters but make bold to avenge
themselves even after their masters have pled with them, their masters
not only refuse to accept them but become angry and rebuke them as
disgraceful and dishonorable rogues and tell them what they ought to
have known.

Thus, if your servant undertakes to avenge himself, you, his master,
will be harsh with him. So much the more God, who admonishes us, will
say that we should give all that over to him. For what could be more
unreasonable than that we, if we demand such modesty of our servants,
refuse to render it to our Lord God? Therefore, if someone has grieved
you, you are not to try to grieve him in return, or you will be like him
and gain nothing.

No one can overcome one evil with another; on the contrary, evil is
overcome by good.36 For it is not suffering insult that is an evil, but offering
insult, or the inability to endure it. Therefore David says: “The helpless commit themselves to you; you have been the helper of the orphan” (Ps. 10:[14]). Thus,
the ungodly man has his judge without you,

33. Rom. 13:4.
34. Text reads: Deut. 12.
35. Rom. 12:20.
36. Rom. 12:21.

and you, man of God, shall not want to wantonly ascribe to yourself the
honor of the only-begotten son (1 Thess. 4).

Vengeance and judgment are reserved for this Judge alone. But if you,
out of ambition to judge, should want to be a judge, I will show you a
judge’s seat. On it is seated your spirit and mind, a judge over your soul
and conscience: why did you dare to do this and that, and why did you
neglect this and that? Then punish yourself, and you will have enough of
the office of judgment.

56
“Let every man,” says Paul (and he does not exclude the believers to
whom he is writing), “be subject to the authorities” (Rom. 13:1 ff). He
does not say that they should or could be authorities of power but says
to be subject. “For there is no government except from God. But the
authority that exists everywhere” (note, everywhere—thus he refers not
only to the Roman and supposedly Christian, but to all authority and
government in the world) “is ordained by God. Therefore he who resists
it resists God’s order, and those who resist it will incur judgment.”
Therefore, as Paul writes, a Christian cannot, under God and in good
conscience, resist a government, the Turkish as little as the Roman,
because he is speaking of authority that is everywhere.

The powerful are not to be feared by those who do good but by the
wicked. For since the world does not fear God’s coming judgment and
does not avoid evil-doing, therefore the present judicial authority of the
government has been instituted that men may at least fear it and avoid
judgment, since the world always sees only the present and is little
concerned about what is coming on that Judgment Day.

The wicked rogues of this world say, “If God grants me borrowed
time until the Judgment Day I still have a long time.” Therefore they do
not desist from evil deeds for fear of the coming Judgment; but for fear
of the present government and temporal condemnation they must put on
a false and worldly piety.

“Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is
good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your
good. But if you do wrong, be afraid (Job 19:[29]), for he does not bear
the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the
wrongdoer. Therefore one must be subject” (note that he speaks simply
of being subject, not of being lords, governors, mayors and rulers) “not
only to avoid wrath but also for conscience’ sake. For the same reason
you also pay taxes” (that is to their office) “on land and possessions, such
as interest, taxes and tithes,” because they cannot perform labor but must
attend to their office.37

Just as God has ordained that the ministers of the Word and Gospel in
Christendom should be supported by the Gospel and receive the dues
for their office and service from the church, so God has also ordained
that the worldly rulers receive their dues from their subjects so that they
can be supported and carry out their office. “For they are God’s servants
attending to these things” (that is, preserving worldly peace and order).
Otherwise no one would be safe from another, and if each took what
belongs to someone else, no one could walk or travel through the
country. Therefore in this respect they serve men for their good, those
who believe as well as those with worldly piety, so that the wicked are
made to fear and so become obedient and wear a bridle like a horse or
mule, yes, a bit by which they are restrained.38

“So let each one of you give what you owe, taxes to whom taxes are
due, revenue to whom revenue is due, and respect to whom respect is
due.”39 He says we should pay what we owe. But in anything that is
contrary to God, faith and conscience (where God alone wants to dwell),
God-fearing Christians do not owe anything. For he adds, “Respect to
whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due”—that is, we should
fear, reverence and honor God above all in those things and keep
ourselves unspotted from the world in whatever is against him (Jas.
1:[27]). For Christ also says, “Give to everyone who begs from you” (Lk.
6:[30]). He does not mean to give indiscriminately, or that I should give if
someone should ask me for money to spend in loose living and gambling
or to buy a gun, spear or sword in order to kill or lay to ruin his enemy.
Oh no! In this we are always to make and keep a Christian and godly
distinction.

Even if I personally did not want to be an arsonist, yet paid someone
else for that purpose; even if I—to be precise, myself—did not want to do
something, yet paid someone else to do it, and then authorized that
person to go; indeed, if I were an enemy of a magistrate or ruling lord,
yet did not want to strangle him with my own hands, but instead
equipped and sent someone else to carry out this deed; would I then not
be punished as a murderer, as if I had carried out the deed myself?
Indeed, most certainly I would, and with good reason! In this same
manner, and even more so, God will bring punishment upon someone

37. Rom. 13:3-6.
38. Ps. 32:9.
39. Rom. 13:7.

who personally does not shed blood, but allows others to fight in war in
his or her stead, compensating and supporting them. These alternatives
are one and the same, and before God merit the same reward.

57
“For what have I to do with judging outsiders?” says Paul (1 Cor.
5:[12]).40 This makes it clear once again that no disciple or follower of
Christ may have dominion over the world and no Christian can be a
ruler. But a ruler may indeed become a Christian if with Christ he lays
aside his office, humbles himself, takes on Christ’s mind, lays down his
sword and takes up Christ’s cross and follows him.
58
Paul says to the Corinthians: “To have lawsuits at all with one another
means something is lacking among you. Why not rather suffer wrong?
But you yourselves wrong and defraud, and that, even your own
brethren” (1 Cor. 6:[7-8]). From this it follows once more that no
Christian may have or hold judicial office; law courts and suing at law
are both done away with in the church of Christ.

59
Paul describes all the offices in the house of God and his church, how
God appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third
teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators,
speakers in various kinds of tongues (1 Cor. 12:[28]; Eph. 4:[11]). But
nowhere does he include the office of force, the sword or the ruler;
nowhere in the entire New Testament does one find that the apostles or
Christians had executioners, police or imprisonment in the church, or
employed them against anyone. Never did they go about in armor. For
all of these things are not proper for Christians. When St. Peter converted
a great crowd of about 3,000 to the faith,41 where did he choose or
appoint them a ruler to lord over them?

Therefore, if there had been—or were to have been in the future—
rulers and force in Christ’s house, the faithful apostle Paul would surely
have described, established and announced it, as well as other offices,
since he did not hold back anything from the church of Christ but
proclaimed all of God’s counsel (Acts 20:[20]).


40. Text reads: 1 Cor. 4.
41. Acts 2:41.

Continued:

C
ChrisJD

I hope to be able to write a few more things in response to the article that was posted before.

However I feel it is worth skipping ahead to mention a few things about what was recently posted:


The government is an outward servant of law, of vengeance.


The word according to the greek dictionary for [i]revenger[/i] in Romans 13:4 means [b]carrying justice out[/b].


Further on the author states:


“Repay no man evil for evil,” says Paul (Rom. 12:[17]). But it is the office of government to repay evil for evil.


[i]to repay evil for evil[/i]


It is a strange thing to call the administration of justice, evil.

Whether or not that was the author's intent, it appears to be the effect.

Paul does not say that governments administer [b]evil[/b] [i]for evil[/i]. But that they are the minsiter of God to you [b]for good[/b]. The subtle shift in terms recasts the function of government into something that is at best ambigously given to and permitted [i]by God[/i] to do evil on earth while serving God as an instrument of wrath.


While violence and retribution are described as being evil, it is in the context of [b]personal retribution[/b](Mat 5:38-39).

But God's people have always been kept from administering vengeance on [b]their own[/b](Edit: that is, in their own cause). See Numbers 35:10-34).


The same David, who was persoanlly kept back [b]by God[/b] from taking personal revenge on Nabal(1Sa 25:32-34), wrote also these things in his office of king, and minister of God to the people for good(Psalm 101:1-8)


Solomon, his son, and king over the legacy of his prosperity, and king of the great time of peace in Israel also wrote things like this(Proverbs 20:8,26).

But he did not go so far, under the inspiration of God, to call doing so, rendering evil, for evil.

[i]edited to change sentence structure[/i]

[i]edited again to add refrences and correct spelling[/i]

C
ChrisJD

In this same manner, and even more so, God will bring punishment upon someone

37. Rom. 13:3-6.
38. Ps. 32:9.
39. Rom. 13:7.

who personally does not shed blood, but allows others to fight in war in
his or her stead, compensating and supporting them.


So far as I can see, this is a very strong conundrum for those that believe participation in government is always evil, but that they are compelled by God to pay taxes into the coffers of Governments that use the same monies to raise their armies, and to hire those that [i]bear the sword[/i] for their good, and this under the providence of God.

H
HeartSong

This morning I was reading Matthew 5 and I do not see how Scripture could be more clear on the matter. Verse 39 states: [color=FF0000][b]resist not evil[/b][/color]

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi HeartSong...


HeartSong wrote:
This morning I was reading Matthew 5 and I do not see how Scripture could be more clear on the matter. Verse 39 states: [color=FF0000][b]resist not evil[/b][/color]

It isn't that this particular passage isn't [i]clear[/i], but it is a question of whether this represents a final, ultimate requirement for all believers that is not superseded by any other requirements. Consider another statement from that same passage:

"Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away." - Matthew 5:41

Am I [i]always[/i] required to give everything that I have away to everyone who asks? Or is there another Biblical concept that supersedes the aforementioned? In fact, I Timothy 5:8 says that a man MUST take care of the affairs of his house. It seems that this passage takes preeminence over the other.

Otherwise, are you [i]really[/i] going to give everything that you own away -- in spite of any wife or children that you may have?

This concept is carried over to the military, police, etc... Many of us are non-violent believers who sincerely try to walk before the Lord with a clear conscience. Many of us do not think that this passage is speaking toward those who would defend or preserve the life of someone else...or while serving in the military.

After all, neither our Lord, John Baptist, nor the apostles NEVER told those serving in the military forces of a godless Roman Empire to leave their job (even when they sincerely looked to them for guidance).

I hope this helps with the understanding of where some of us feel in regard to this passage. We also believe that we are fulfilling Biblical "non-resistance."

C
ChrisJD

This morning I was reading Matthew 5 and I do not see how Scripture could be more clear on the matter. Verse 39 states: resist not evil

Hi Heartsong, but isn't it important to take the whole verse into us?

Is the Lord saying here that we are not to resist evil?

I don't believe so. I think He is telling us that by retaliating to a personal insult or attack, we are not resisting evil(which we should do, that is we should [stand against] evil) but are contributing to it.

Let me give you an example from my own recent experience.

One night a few weeks ago, right before I stated participating in this thread again(I mean the exact night before), I was walking down the street coming home and I passed three young men.


One of them turned back, and said something as to suggest that I had bumped into him, as if to provoke me into something.

I responed peaceably to him. He continued to do the same so I decided it was best to walk over to a nearby store.

As I went to go that way and he was questioning me about it, the others with him urged him to move on, saying that I was going to get the police.

Before we seperated altogether I told him that God loves him.

Now, if a man that is a Police officer comes across a group of men trying to rob another, is it his duty to tell them about God's love? Whether he would be a Christian or not?

Is that how he should resist the evil that is happening right in front of him, or even how God has permitted for him to act on behalf of others?

Would he be doing evil to use the authority and force he has to stop it? Or would he be rightfully resisting evil, for the sake of good?


Not too long ago a police officer here was responding to an altercation between two taxi hacks(this is how I recall the details of the story anyway).


When he arrived, one of the persons involved shot the officer and killed him.

Not only did that officer risk and give his life to stop something evil, he did it for people that he did not even know and who now could never thank him.

Paul said that scarcely will a man lay down his life for a righteous man.

Yet police officers are called upon to do so, even for their enemies.

Are they resisting evil for good?


H
HeartSong

Dear Chris and Chris,

Have you asked the Lord to show you the truth found in not resisting evil?

When He shows you, watch for the difference in what happens when you resist vs. when you do not. It is like the difference between night and day.

These arguments that you are using sound like you do not think that the Lord is in control - that He will put you in a position of having to break the law. Is this not unbelief? Do you not believe that He is protecting you? Do you think that He would require that you kill someone to protect your family? Do you not believe that He is protecting your family? If you do not believe that He is watching over you - that He is in control of all things, then I suppose that it is best that you resist.

EDIT: No, it is never best to resist for it only empowers the evil.

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone.

One thing that we can observe is that in a war of words there is retaliation and resistance, even among the spiritual.

The end all and be all, the nuclear weapon if you will, of those who escalate and retaliate in the war of words is to question the spirituality of others. Or to suggest that they have missed it from God.


C
ChrisJD

Dear Heartsong,

about this,


When He shows you, watch for the difference in what happens when you resist vs. when you do not. It is like the difference between night and day.

I thought earlier of another story from my personal experience to perhaps share.

About a year ago I was taking a young man that was a new beleiver with me to share the Gospel at night on the weekends in the city. One night as we were about to go home, he decides out of nowhere that he wanted to go over to a nearby park. I reluctantly followed him and when we got there, there was a group of young people hanging around. They had been drinking. I said something to them about it, and one of them noticed my friend that was with me.

He acts like he knew him and questions him very sharply about something that had happened before. And then, very much unadvisedly, the new beleiver that was with me makes a comment that set him off. And in a moment they are in a conflict.


The young man shoved him, and then my friend shoved him back. Immediately I stepped in standing in front of him told him that was not our way. He told me later that as soon as I said that he knew it was right and knew that he could not continue with that.

While he may have settled down, the situation only got worse, because now there was a group of about twenty kids surrounding us and they were not talking about being nice to us.


After much gentle speaking and a somewhat helpfull person who said he was a Christian, the situation diffused and we were able to leave.


The way that my younger friend responded was not the right way to resist evil, and just like I think the Lord was teaching us(in the Sermon on the Mount), it only worked to escalate the problem. But, I think that I can say by God's grace, we did eventually resist evil the right way, with soft answers to wrath, and assuring them that we had no intention of fighting with them.

But now, if a Police officer had come upon the same situation, or if it had become violent, it wouldn't have been appropriate for him to resist the evil the same way. The gun that he carries at his side is an ever visible sign that he is authorised to resist evil, even with force. And Paul says he gets his authorisation to do so, from God.


[i]edited to correct spelling and for clarity[/i]

L
Leo_Grace

Dear HeartSong,

I have tried to stay out of this thread, however I must say that your implication that those who disagree with this idea of non-resistance are lacking somehow in faith is uncalled for and erroneous.

Taking action to right a wrong, or to prevent an injustice, or to defend the helpless is act of obedience to the teachings of God, not a sign of lack of faith.

The instruction to resist evil and to defend the helpless and the poor is everywhere in the Bible. It is a teaching that is interwoven all throughout the old and new testaments. The singular verse that says to not resist evil, along with accompanying verses, are exaggerated hyperbole given by the Lord to emphasize the depths of love and forbearance that must be exercised by those who are led by the Spirit under the new covenant.

The verses in Mt 5:39-42 are not literal instructions but hyperbole to emphasize the greater levels of righteousness expected of those led by the Spirit. At the beginning of the sermon on the mount, Jesus taught that under the new covenant (Spirit), his disciples must exceed the righteousness of those Pharisees under the old covenant (Law).

We are clearly instructed in the Bible to prove our faith through action:

[i]Jas 2:14-17 [color=CC3300]"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, 'Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,' but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."[/color][/i]

Resisting evil with action is faithful obedience. The person who has the opportunity to act to defend the helpless, to feed the hungry, or to correct injustice, but decides to do nothing because he or she "believes that God is able to provide, protect and defend them himself" is the one who needs to reflect on what true Biblical faith is like.

[i]Mt 7:24 [color=CC3300]“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.[/color]

Isa 1:17 [color=CC3300]"learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow."[/color]

Pr 31:8-9 [color=CC3300]“Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy."[/color]

Isa 58:6-9 [color=CC3300]“Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter — when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood? Then your light will break forth like the dawn, and your healing will quickly appear; then your righteousness will go before you, and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard. Then you will call, and the LORD will answer; you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I."[/color][/i]

God expects his children to rise to the occasion and act, this is very clear in the Bible. Those who don't understand this need to read more of Scripture.

H
HeartSong

The verses in Mt 5:39-42 are not literal instructions but hyperbole to emphasize the greater levels of righteousness expected of those led by the Spirit.

The words of Jesus are hyperbole? This is not possible. Truth is truth. Jesus is truth. The words of Jesus are truth. Jesus is the Word.


HYPER'BOLE, n. hyper'boly. [Gr. excess, to throw beyond,to exceed.]

In rhetoric, a figure of speech which expresses much more or less than the truth, or which represents things much greater or less, better or worse than they really are.

Your examples say that we are to feed and clothe the poor - on this we agree. This is not resisting evil, it is doing good. Doing good dispels evil.

L
Leo_Grace

The words of Jesus are hyperbole? This is not possible. Truth is truth. Jesus is truth. The words of Jesus are truth. Jesus is the Word.

Of course it is entirely possible. Jesus liked to speak in parables and he spoke using literary devices, or figures of speech, many times. In the sermon on the mount, he said:

[i]Mt 5:29-30 [color=CC3300]"If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."[/color][/i]

In Luke, Jesus taught:

[i]Lk 14:26 [color=CC3300]“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.[/color][/i]

If we are to take these words literally, and not as figures of speech, then I submit that almost all obedient believers should be missing eyes and limbs, and we should forsake all our families outright. Some of these passages are from the very same sermon of Christ that encompass Mt 5:39-42. Are we to be selective in our acceptance of his teachings based on what fits with what we want to do? Are we to woodenly take everything literally? I think not.

The sermon on the mount is deep teaching and should not be taken at face value. One way to determine if a passage is to be taken literally, or not, is to ask: Is this teaching repeated in other parts of the Bible? Plucking out the eyes/cutting off the limbs and giving way to evil are not taught elsewhere in the Bible. These are hyperbole to stress the greater point of exceeding the righteousness demanded by the Law through the Spirit.

To be more specific, the hyperbole of plucking out the eyes tells us that we must hate sin even more under the new covenant.

The hyperbole of not resisting evil tells us that we must exercise greater patience, forbearance and love under the new covenant; for the rest of the Bible tells us that we must fight evil with all our might wherever it may be found.

The hyperbole to hate one's own parents and family actually means that our love for God should so far exceed our love for our own "loved ones" that it will be as if we hated them (but not actually hate them); for the rest of the Bible teaches us to honor our parents and care for our family.

The Bible is also abundantly clear that the disciples of Christ are to act in obedience to him at the risk of their very lives; not to sit passively and expect God to do everything for us (unless he directly instructs us to stand aside). For it is by our action that our faith is proven, not by our inaction.

[i]Jas 1:25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, [b]not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it[/b]—he will be blessed in what he does.[/i]

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi HeartSong...

Have you asked the Lord to show you the truth ...

Of course! Why would we even respond unless we have asked the Lord about the truth in this matter? I don't think that we could make this any more clear to you! We have stated repeatedly in this thread in the other threads about this subject that we have prayerfully studied and considered these things. However, our prayerful study and consideration has simply led us to a different perspective on this issue.
These arguments that you are using sound like you do not think that the Lord is in control...

How did you arrive to such a conclusion? That is just...well...incorrect.
...that He will put you in a position of having to break the law.
Law? Which law? The Law of Moses? State or federal law? The law of walking before God with a clear conscience? The "law" of taking care of the needs of my household? There is NO LAW that emphatically says that a believer cannot defend their family members or serve in the military. If it were so "clear cut," God would have said so. And yet, Jesus, Peter, Paul, and the other apostles NEVER told any soldier to quit the military (at least, not in the Word of God).
Is this not unbelief? Do you not believe that He is protecting you? Do you think that He would require that you kill someone to protect your family? Do you not believe that He is protecting your family?
Unbelief? Actually, I fully believe that God can protect me. I also believe that I will die if I stand in front of a train. But, to be clear, this isn't about "me." This is about whether or not I see any Scriptural prohibition against defending my wife...or children.

For every great story of a person who is supernaturally protected by God from evil, I can recite stories of innocent people (and believers) who were NOT supernaturally protected (in a physical sense). Some of these are detailed in Hebrews 11...where people were tortured, stoned, sawn asunder, flogged and slain by the sword. Paul was flogged, beaten and stoned several times. But, again, I simply do not see any sort of ultimate Scriptural prohibition against defending my family (or even serving in the military), regardless of how some might "look down" upon me or think that my view might be "unspiritual." I have even read through rather lengthy discourses about this matter (including in this very thread), and it hasn't caused me to see it any differently. And and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.

S
sermonindex

Dear HeartSong:

I think that we should take the whole counsel of God on this issue of non-violence.

As much as I disagree with ccchhhrrriiisss on every issue, I agree with him on this one.

Why is it that pacifists are always trying to convince everyone else to be pacifists, and they never use the whole Counsel of God to try and convince them? The various threads on pacifism, that have appeared on Sermonindex run forever. Not too long ago someone that holds your position on this issue posted an entire book on this subject, that ended up going nowhere.

Sincerely,

Walter


HeartSong wrote:
The verses in Mt 5:39-42 are not literal instructions but hyperbole to emphasize the greater levels of righteousness expected of those led by the Spirit.

The words of Jesus are hyperbole? This is not possible. Truth is truth. Jesus is truth. The words of Jesus are truth. Jesus is the Word.


HYPER'BOLE, n. hyper'boly. [Gr. excess, to throw beyond,to exceed.]

In rhetoric, a figure of speech which expresses much more or less than the truth, or which represents things much greater or less, better or worse than they really are.

Your examples say that we are to feed and clothe the poor - on this we agree. This is not resisting evil, it is doing good. Doing good dispels evil.

H
HeartSong

Dear Chris, Leo and now Waltern,

I do not "look down" upon you - and your spiritual condition is between you and God.

The time is short. Things are changing in this land at a rapid pace and anything short of the hand of God is not going to stop it. What we once thought to be true, will soon no longer be true. It is already happening.

Those that trust in the Lord will be able to stand. Those that do not know how to rely upon Him will fall. There is no way that we can stand against Satan in our own strength. The only way that Satan can be defeated is by the love of Christ.

There is a battle raging but it is not the kind of battle that can be won with our guns - it is a battle that needs to be fought upon our knees. This battle is for the souls of men. Shooting the man will not stop the evil, it will only stop the man. The enemy has plenty more to send forth.

It is quite possible that it will be our own military and/or police that will be sent forth to take out the Christians. What will you do if it is your own little girl staring at the end of the barrel of your gun saying "I pick Jesus." Will you kill, or be killed?

God bless you all, and may He have mercy on our souls.

L
Leo_Grace

Dear HeartSong,

Please understand that I say this out of love and concern for you.

The only way that Satan can be defeated is by the love of Christ.

You are mistaken in your thinking. You should spend more time reading God's word instead of meditating on your own romantic notions of what God's will is. Love is the power by which we are won to Christ, and it can win other people to Christ; but we can never defeat Satan by loving him.

[i]Eph 6:11-18
Put on the full armor of God so that you can [b]take your stand against the devil’s schemes[/b]. For our [b]struggle[/b] is not against flesh and blood, but [b]against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil[/b] in the heavenly realms. Therefore [b]put on the full armor of God[/b], so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to [b]stand your ground[/b], and after you have done everything, to stand. [b]Stand firm[/b] then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, [b]take up the shield[/b] of faith, with which you can [b]extinguish all the flaming arrows[/b] of the evil one. Take the [b]helmet[/b] of salvation and the [b]sword of the Spirit[/b], which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, [b]be alert[/b] and always keep on praying for all the saints.[/i]

The battle, although spiritual in nature, is to be fought as warriors -- through action and courage, armor and weapons; not through inaction and passivity -- this is clear in the above passage.

(Edited to add the 4 words that follow) See the above passage: love is not a weapon to be wielded against Satan. It is not part of the armor of God. Our weapons against evil are: truth, righteousness, the gospel of peace, faith, our salvation, the word of God, and prayer. With these weapons we are to fight Satan and defeat him.

Scripture teaches that our love is to be given to God first, and our neighbors (people) next. Anyone who says that we should love Satan, or love evil in order to overcome them is a false teacher; anyone who says that we should just sit by and allow them to have their way without resisting them with all our might is a false teacher.

Shooting the man will not stop the evil, it will only stop the man. The enemy has plenty more to send forth.

Maybe so. But if shooting the man will free the oppressed, defend the fatherless, or protect those whom God has placed in your care, then God's purpose is fulfilled and it is your Christian duty to do it. Whom would you love more and whom should you protect? The follower of the devil or the followers of God?

What will you do if it is your own little girl staring at the end of the barrel of your(sic) gun saying "I pick Jesus." Will you kill, or be killed?

I would defend my child to the best of my ability. If necessary, I would kill or be killed. I would give my life doing what God has instructed me to do.

God bless you all, and may He have mercy on our souls.

Thanks for your kind sentiment.

S
sermonindex

Leo writes......

"Love is not a weapon to be wielded against Satan. It is not part of the armor of God. Our weapons against evil are: truth, righteousness, the gospel of peace, faith, our salvation, the word of God, and prayer. With these weapons we are to fight Satan and defeat him."

Wow brother, I do not think I have ever disagreed more with a statement on SI than this one. God bless you...........brother Frank

PS If Calvary does not represent Love, and a defeat of Satan, then I would not even know how to have a discussion with someone who did not believe that Calvary was a triumph of Love and forgiveness.

L
Leo_Grace


appolus wrote:
Leo writes......

"Love is not a weapon to be wielded against Satan. It is not part of the armor of God. Our weapons against evil are: truth, righteousness, the gospel of peace, faith, our salvation, the word of God, and prayer. With these weapons we are to fight Satan and defeat him."

Wow brother, I do not think I have ever disagreed more with a statement on SI than this one. God bless you...........brother Frank

PS If Calvary does not represent Love, and a defeat of Satan, then I would not even know how to have a discussion with someone who did not believe that Calvary was a triumph of Love and forgiveness.


Dear Frank,

Maybe I could have chosen better words to convey my meaning. Calvary was a victory of LOVE that is true, but it is God's love for man, not God's love for Satan. Big difference, don't you think?

In the same way, Christians should be motivated in their actions by LOVE for God and LOVE for fellow men, not just LOVE per se, which some would take to mean not resisting evil at all. The Bible is clear that we must resist evil in all its forms. Love must have an object, and it is the object that makes LOVE a thing of God or a thing of the devil (LOVE of money).

When we lift the banner of LOVE, we must be clear that love cannot be exercised with no object in mind. Scripturally, the objects of our love are God and fellowmen; not evil, never evil.

If you truly love God, then there are some things that you can never love (sin, evil, Satan, injustice, cruelty, oppression, hypocrisy, etc.). If you love God, you would do as he commands and oppose these evils to the best of your ability. When you think that you should "not resist" these evils out of love, you have lost your first love.

S
sermonindex

Dear Appolos:

In studying the Ten Commandments, the commandment Thou shall not kill should actually read [color=990000][b]Thou shalt not Murder. [/color][/b]

The commandment "thou shall not kill" (Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17), is better understood to mean "you shall not murder." Most modern translations of the Bible rendered it this way.

According to the Bible not all killing, the taking of a life, is murder. Murder is the unlawfully taking of human life. The command not to murder applies to human beings, not to killing animals or plant life for food. God gave animals to mankind for his use (Genesis 1:26-30; 9:1-4). But, this does not mean that humans have the right mistreat animals and the environment (Genesis 2:15; Deuteronomy 22:6-7; 25:4; Proverbs 12:10).

Under the Old Covenant God allowed the Israelites to kill other humans under very special circumstances such as punishment for certain sins, for example, murder (Exodus 21:12-14, Leviticus 24:17, 21) and adultery (Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 22:22-24). God also allowed the Israelites to engage in warfare and even gave them instructions about waging war (Deuteronomy 20:1-20). God also recognized that humans might accidentally kill each other, and he made provisions for this (Numbers 35:9-34; Deuteronomy 19:1-13).

The primary reason God hates murder (to lie in wait, and purposely kill another human being) is that out of all creation, only human are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:4-6). Even before the codification of the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai the murder of other human beings was wrong (Genesis 4:8-12; 4:23-24; 9:4-6; Exodus 1:16-17). While on earth, Jesus spoke out against murder (Matthew 5:21-26; Mark 10:17-19). We also see in the writings of Paul (Romans 1:18, 29-32; 13:8-10; Galatians 5:19-21), James (James 2:8-11; 4:1-3), Peter (1 Peter 4:15-16) and John (Revelation 9:20-21; 21:7-8; 22:14-15) that murder is wrong.

[color=990000][b]If anyone is intent on murdering me, or any member of my family, please understand that it is my God given duty to defend them, as well as myself, even if it results in their death, or my own death. Only a coward or a timid fool would not defend himself/herself and/or his/her family.[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter


appolus wrote:
Leo writes......

"Love is not a weapon to be wielded against Satan. It is not part of the armor of God. Our weapons against evil are: truth, righteousness, the gospel of peace, faith, our salvation, the word of God, and prayer. With these weapons we are to fight Satan and defeat him."

Wow brother, I do not think I have ever disagreed more with a statement on SI than this one. God bless you...........brother Frank

PS If Calvary does not represent Love, and a defeat of Satan, then I would not even know how to have a discussion with someone who did not believe that Calvary was a triumph of Love and forgiveness.

S
sermonindex

Hi Waltern,

My specific issue was with this statement........

Leo writes......

"Love is not a weapon to be wielded against Satan. It is not part of the armor of God. Our weapons against evil are: truth, righteousness, the gospel of peace, faith, our salvation, the word of God, and prayer. With these weapons we are to fight Satan and defeat him."

Do you agree with that statement?.......Frank

L
Leo_Grace


appolus wrote:
Hi Waltern,

My specific issue was with this statement........

Leo writes......

"Love is not a weapon to be wielded against Satan. It is not part of the armor of God. Our weapons against evil are: truth, righteousness, the gospel of peace, faith, our salvation, the word of God, and prayer. With these weapons we are to fight Satan and defeat him."

Do you agree with that statement?.......Frank

Frank,

Please read the whole post and also the last one I made in response to your objection.

Leo

C
ChrisJD

Dear friends,


The only way that Satan can be defeated is by the love of Christ.

I do not think that Heartsong meant that we are to love Satan. I think that what she meant was that love is how we will defeat him: his devices, his strategies against God and man, his power over others and what he would try to use on ourselves.

It may not be described as our weapon or armor in the scriptures and it need not be. It is rather called the bond of perfection(greek:joint tie, ligament).

I suppose then that any Christian warrior not fitted in armor tied together in love is not ready for battle.

S
sermonindex

Dear Appolus:

My specific objection is to your position (pacifism).

Do you believe that God gives you the right to defend your family and yourself against anyone who wants to destroy your family and/or yourself?

That is the issue here, that you will not discuss.


Sincerely,

Walter


appolus wrote:
Hi Waltern,

My specific issue was with this statement........

Leo writes......

"Love is not a weapon to be wielded against Satan. It is not part of the armor of God. Our weapons against evil are: truth, righteousness, the gospel of peace, faith, our salvation, the word of God, and prayer. With these weapons we are to fight Satan and defeat him."

Do you agree with that statement?.......Frank

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HI Waltern, respectfully, I did not jump back into this post to rehash what has already been said, I believe it would be fruitless. I can agree to disagree with you on this subject and I respect your right to have any position that you have. However, as I said, I do not believe I have ever disagreed more with a commnet from a regular on SI than this statement........

"Love is not a weapon to be wielded against Satan. It is not part of the armor of God. Our weapons against evil are: truth, righteousness, the gospel of peace, faith, our salvation, the word of God, and prayer. With these weapons we are to fight Satan and defeat him."

M
MaryJane

Greeting Leo

You wrote: If you truly love God, then there are some things that you can never love (sin, evil, Satan, injustice, cruelty, oppression, hypocrisy, etc.). If you love God, you would do as he commands and oppose these evils to the best of your ability. When you think that you should "not resist" these evils out of love, you have lost your first love.
___

I think I see what you are saying with this. I agree that when we are commanded to love that does not include the evil of sin. We are called to view sin as the Father does and He views all sin as wicked and evil. I think that we should resist evil absolutely, however I do not think that means that we have to take up arms and seek to cause harm to the persons.

God Bless
mj

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Dear Appolus (Frank):

Your question should be directed to the person who made it to you, not to me.

I am not Leo (Leo_Grace). He is the one that made the statement.

Sincerely,

Walter


appolus wrote:
HI Waltern, respectfully, I did not jump back into this post to rehash what has already been said, I believe it would be fruitless. I can agree to disagree with you on this subject and I respect your right to have any position that you have. However, as I said, I do not believe I have ever disagreed more with a commnet from a regular on SI than this statement........

"Love is not a weapon to be wielded against Satan. It is not part of the armor of God. Our weapons against evil are: truth, righteousness, the gospel of peace, faith, our salvation, the word of God, and prayer. With these weapons we are to fight Satan and defeat him."

L
Lysa

waltern wrote:

Dear Appolus (Frank):

Your question should be directed to the person who made it to you, not to me.

I am not Leo (Leo_Grace). He is the one that made the statement.

Sincerely,

Walter


appolus wrote:
HI Waltern, respectfully, I did not jump back into this post to rehash what has already been said, I believe it would be fruitless. I can agree to disagree with you on this subject and I respect your right to have any position that you have. However, as I said, I do not believe I have ever disagreed more with a commnet from a regular on SI than this statement........

"Love is not a weapon to be wielded against Satan. It is not part of the armor of God. Our weapons against evil are: truth, righteousness, the gospel of peace, faith, our salvation, the word of God, and prayer. With these weapons we are to fight Satan and defeat him."

The sad thing is he did, Waltern.
YOU even quoted his response that he "directed to the person who made it"... to Leo at 2009/12/19 11:02 when you interrupted their conversation!!

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HI Waltern, you kinda barged into a question I had asked Leo. Now, I do not particularly mind that, it just gets a little bizarre when you then tell me to direct the question to Leo, which of course I did :)........brother Frank

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HI Maryjane, the question at issue is not about loving evil or loving sin, not even close, the statement in question is, well let me cut it down even further.......

""Love is not a weapon to be wielded against Satan. It is not part of the armor of God."

I totaly and unequivically disagree with that statement..............Frank

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Sorry, Frank:

I do agree with Leo, and the statement that he made.

Specifically:
“Love is not a weapon to be wielded against Satan. It is not part of the armor of God. Our weapons against evil are: truth, righteousness, the gospel of peace, faith, our salvation, the word of God, and prayer. With these weapons we are to fight Satan and defeat him."

[color=990000][b]My statement to you Frank is really about the validity of this entire thread.[/color][/b]

As far as Leo's statement is concerened, I would add more to it.

“I would even go further, and state that those who are deceived by Satan, and as such do his bidding, that come against me or my family and loved ones with the evil intent to kill or harm my loved ones, will be dealt with in like manner.”

As I said, without the whole counsel of God, the subject of pacifism is meaningless.

Sincerely,

Walter


appolus wrote:
HI Waltern, you kinda barged into a question I had asked Leo. Now, I do not particularly mind that, it just gets a little bizarre when you then tell me to direct the question to Leo, which of course I did :)........brother Frank

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Wltern writes......

"My statement to you Frank is really about the validity of this entire thread."

Not my thread brother. As I said, there are clear disagreements and I am gonna guess that this is not gonna change any time soon :) I am glad we cleared up the other point and you have made your opinion clear, God bless you brother......Frank

L
Leo_Grace

Dear MaryJane,

I think I see what you are saying with this. I agree that when we are commanded to love that does not include the evil of sin. We are called to view sin as the Father does and He views all sin as wicked and evil. I think that we should resist evil absolutely, however I do not think that means that we have to take up arms and seek to cause harm to the persons.

Thank you for your kind response. You understood what I meant. But I guess we must differ on the concept of how to resist evil, for I would willingly take up arms to defend those I love, including you, Appolus, chapel, and others who may disagree with me.

However, this is where most of the contention arises, I think: the second half of your last sentence is grossly unfair to those who don't believe in non-resistance. If I do take up arms in defense of those whom I love (as God leads), it will never be to "seek to cause harm" -- no Christian would ever have such a goal in his heart. It would be to defend and protect. The action is one of love for those whom God has placed under my care, or within my power to protect. Causing harm will never be the objective, although it could be the unavoidable result.

God Bless.

M
MaryJane

Greetings Leo:

you wrote:the second half of your last sentence is grossly unfair to those who don't believe in non-resistance. If I do take up arms in defense of those whom I love (as God leads), it will never be to "seek to cause harm" -- no Christian would ever have such a goal in his heart. It would be to defend and protect. The action is one of love for those whom God has placed under my care, or within my power to protect. Causing harm will never be the objective, although it could be the unavoidable result.
___

You know brother I can see where what I wrote may have come off as offensive to you are those who feel that they can and should defend with physical force if in the situation. For that please accept my apology. I do not agree with all that some on the thread have said and shared, but I know that you and the others love the Lord with all your heart and I trust Him in this. I understand that even in defending your family you would not be seeking to harm any individual out of anger or hatred. Brother I still do not have all the answers to these "What If" questions. I still do not understand how a christian can demonstrate loving someone while killing them???(I know that is not what you are saying, these are question I am seeking to still come to understand in Christ Jesus.)

These are things that I have been praying about, as for what the Lord is showing me I do think we differ on this issue, but I still love you brother and value you and the others that have contributed here to this thread.

God Bless
mj

L
Leo_Grace

Thank you, MJ.

L
Leo_Grace

This is a true story that I thought I should post in relation to the thoughts on this thread. It happened about 20 years ago:

[i]A middle-aged Christian named Danny belonged to a large church that he attended with many other fellow Christians on a regular basis. At the end of each Sunday service, Danny, together with dozens of his brothers in the church, would ride the public bus, Bibles in hand, for the ride home. Danny was a small man, short of stature and scrawny, and his brothers from the church were relatively bigger and well-built physically.

One Sunday, on the bus ride home from church, a non-believer took the same bus and started picking on little Danny. The bully insulted and derided Danny verbally, punched his thighs, slapped him in the back of his head a few times, all the while making fun of his Protestant faith. Danny took in all of this abuse without fighting back. He knew that as a Christian he was to exercise forbearance and humility in the face of an attack on his person. Danny did not hate the bully for the man was not of the faith, and was acting out of ignorance. What did disturb Danny immensely was the fact that there were dozens of able-bodied Christian "brothers" with him on that bus who wouldn't lift a finger to help him. Some of them simply averted their gaze while others (he found out later) prayed that God would intervene in Danny's behalf while they themselves did nothing.

Danny was deeply impacted by the event, not by what the bully did, but by what his "brothers" did not do. Danny was extremely disappointed that so many Christians on the bus, who openly professed a new life in Christ, were unwilling, when the opportunity arose, to "lay down their lives for their friend" (Jn 15:13). Danny said that if it was someone else being attacked, he would have gladly given his life in defense of that friend.[/i]

He shared this experience with a Christian leader who then shared it with us.

We are called to be the salt and the light of the earth -- to bring glory to God that others may praise him and draw near. When we fail to act, the salt has lost its saltiness... (Mt 5:13-16)

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“Concerning the Sword”: A Hutterian Apologia of 1577
[Article IV of the Great Article Book]

EDITED BY LEONARD GROSS*
TRANSLATED BY ELIZABETH HORSCH BENDER, ET AL.

This translation first appeared in the January 2009 issue of the
Mennonite Quarterly Review.

60
Paul says to the church, “We are not lords over your faith, but we
work with you for your joy” (2 Cor. 2:[24]). And Peter obligates the
elders and admonishes them to “tend willingly the flock of God that is
your charge, not for shameful gain but eagerly, not as domineering over
those in your charge but by being examples to the flock” (1 Pet. 5:[2]).

61
“The weapons of our warfare are not carnal,” says Paul, “but
spiritual” (2 Cor. 10:[4]). In other places he says the armor of God is the
sword of the Spirit, namely, God’s word, the breastplate of righteousness
and love, the shield of faith, the helmet of salvation and hope (Eph. 6:[14-
17]; 1 Thess. 5:[8]). That is the arsenal of armor for Christians and the
weapons of the knights of Christ.

The weapons of earthly power and its knights are carnal and not
spiritual; they are swords, spears, guns and halberds; they are javelins
and clubs; they are murderous weapons of war to take lives. These two
classes of weapons cannot exist together. Since they are essentially
different, they cannot both be handled by one man. He who wants the
one must leave the other.

No man can serve two masters at the same time. No one can travel on
two roads at the same time. No one can set his foot down at more than
one place. Here, too, the weapons of Christians and those of the world,
the weapons of the Spirit and those of the flesh, cannot be fused together.
Just as what is stated above cannot be done, neither can a Christian be
a worldly ruler, or a worldly ruler a Christian. Christians do not fight in
human fashion, says Paul (2 Cor. 10:[3]), but the world and its rulers
wage war and fight solely in human fashion. Christians fight against the
devil and sin and not against a human being; the world and its
governments fight for honor and possessions against other lands and
their peoples; they daily let the devil and sin overcome them and take
them prisoner. Christians contend for a heavenly inheritance and
homeland, while worldly powers strive for an earthly inheritance and
homeland. Christians fight for an imperishable heavenly crown, the
absolute opposite of the other. Christians are a spectacle to the world,
refuse to the world, and every man’s outcast—they are fools for Christ’s
sake (1 Cor. 4:[9-10]); rulers rank high in the world, are illustrious and
assured of honor, and consequently, since everyone lifts his hat, they go
far wrong.

62
The sword is the absolute opposite of and contrary to true love (which
is the first commandment in the church of Christ, the head and the
summit of the Christian life). For the apostle Paul says, “Love is patient
and kind” (1 Cor. 13:[4]). But the sword and its servants are quickly
angered, abrupt and rough, short of temper like an enemy. Love is not
envious, but the sword is not only envious, but returns evil for evil from
that time on. Love is not resentful, is not puffed up; the sword and its
servants clash with one another and puff themselves up with great
power and might. Love does not seek its own gain, whereas the sword
protects, seeks and preserves its own self interest (Hos. 13; Rom. 13).
Love is not easily provoked to anger; the sword is nothing but pure
wrath, and a tool and instrument of wrath (Job 19:[29]). Love compels no
one to do wrong; the sword is vengeance itself and repays every wrong
with wrong (Rom. 13:[4]). Love endures all things; the sword endures
nothing, but returns blow for blow. Paul says, “If I had everything and
did not have love, I would gain nothing” (1 Cor. 13:[1-7]). Worldly
authority, if it had everything but the sword, would be useless as
governmental authority.
To sum up: Love has precedence among Christians, but in the world
the sword has precedence;42 therefore Christian love and the worldly
sword cannot exist together, but the sword, and those who serve and
wield it, are situated parallel to Christ’s kingdom—outside his church
and not in it. However, since it is still day, they may still enter in this
manner: if they turn and become like children (Mt. 18:[3]).

63
Paul writes to Titus, “Remind them to be submissive to rulers,
obeying the government and ready for every good work” (note: “good
work”) (Titus 3:[1]). Thereby everything is excluded that is evil, contrary
to the Gospel, and against faith and conscience; he does not want us to
be ready to do such things.

64
The Apostle Peter teaches: “Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every
human institution, whether it be to the king as supreme, or to governors
as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who

42. This phrase “but in the world the sword has precedence” is missing in Friedmann,
but found in Cod. EAH 227.

do right. For it is God’s will that by doing right you should put to silence
the ignorance of foolish men. Live as those who are free, yet without
using your freedom as a pretext for evil” (1 Pet. 2:[13-16]).43 Thus they all
teach submissiveness—but, however, as Peter himself did: When he was
forbidden to preach, and ordered to do wrong, he said, “We must obey
God rather than men” (Acts 5:[29]).


Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego did likewise (Dan. 3:[16 ff]), and
also Mattathias and his men. When a tyrannical power tried to force
them to act contrary to the law of God, he said in a loud voice: “Even if
all the nations that live under the rule of the king obey him, and have
chosen to do his commandments, departing each one from the religion of
his fathers, yet I and my sons and my brothers will live by the covenant
of our fathers. Far be it from us to desert the law and the ordinances. We
will not obey the king’s words by turning aside from our religion to the
right hand or to the left.” (1 Macc. 2:[19-22]).

That is what the ancients did, that is what Peter did; yes, no Christian
has ever permitted himself to be forced to do anything contrary to God
and the faith. That is why from the beginning Christians have suffered so
much torture, pain and death at the hands of emperors and rulers.
Therefore, in whatever is right and Christian, to that extent we should
also show submission. It never occurred to the apostles to teach anything
more than that.

65
To the Thessalonians Paul writes: “The Lord will slay the Antichrist
with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by the radiance of his
coming” (2 Thess. 2:[8]). He does not say with soldiers and weapons.

66
The Lord Christ revealed himself to the holy Apostle John, with a
two-edged sword issuing from his mouth44 (Rev. 1:16; 19:15). From this
we, his disciples and believers, learn that the sword does not belong in
our hands but in our mouth—that is, the sword of the Spirit, God’s word
(Heb. 4:[12]); Eph. 6:[17])—and that we should not bear or use the bloody
sword.

43. Text reads: 1 Pet. 1.
44. Friedmann (p. 269), reads: “in seiner handt.” However, Cod. EAH 227 reads: “in
seinem mundt,” which fits better into the context.

67
The twenty-four elders in the Revelation of John who appear around
the throne of God cast their crowns before the throne. Where, then, will
those be who, here and now, refuse to cast away their crowns but instead
want to be crowned and honored by all men, and for the sake of their
temporal crowns, tear and bite at each other so that blood flows? They
will not be among the elders gathered around the throne of God, but
around Lucifer’s throne. The elders say, “Worthy art thou, our Lord and
God, to receive glory and honor and power, for thou didst create all
things” (Rev. 4:[10-11]). But these people regard themselves worthy of
receiving and accepting glory and honor and great reverence, which a
Christian can neither accept nor take to himself.

68
“If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leads into captivity
shall go into captivity; he that kills with the sword must be killed with
the sword. This calls for the patience and the faith of the saints” (Rev.
13:[9-10]).45 It is as though he wanted to say, only with this will they
overcome. For with patience Christians overcome all their foes. Patience
is a weapon for every conflict. John says, “Our faith is the victory that
overcomes the world” (1 Jn. 5:[4]). Therefore Christ teaches his followers
in the Gospel, “Possess your souls with patience”;46 nowhere does he
teach them to possess their souls with swords and spears like the tribes
of Iscariots and Pharisees, and the soldiers on the Mount of Olives who
seized Jesus and imprisoned him.47
That is why they had to be imprisoned in Vespasian’s prisons48 and
lose their lives by the sword of the Romans. And that would be a small
matter if only they did not also have to come before God’s judgment on
the Judgment Day. For they will have to appear there and be cast into the
prison of outermost darkness where there is eternal weeping and wailing
and gnashing of teeth.49

At this judgment they will first be judged by the two-edged sword of the Son of God (Rev. 1:[16]; 19:[15]) when he says to

45. Text reads: Rev. 3.
46. Lk. 21:19.
47. Mt. 26.
48. Reference to the Jewish war. The Book of Josephus Flavius was very popular among
the Anabaptists, and is still being read today among their spiritual descendants.
49. Mt. 13:42, 50; 25:30.

them: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the
devil and his angels” (Mt. 25:[41]).
This will be the lot of all who even today put the members of Christ
into prison and kill them because of their faith under the name of
heretics. This they will do, says Christ, because they have not known me
nor my Father (Jn. 16:[3]; 1 Cor. 2:[8]; 1 Jn. 3:[1]),50 as if he were saying:
therefore they will not know you either.

Continued:

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“Concerning the Sword”: A Hutterian Apologia of 1577
[Article IV of the Great Article Book]

EDITED BY LEONARD GROSS*
TRANSLATED BY ELIZABETH HORSCH BENDER, ET AL.

This translation first appeared in the January 2009 issue of the Mennonite Quarterly Review.


69
Anyone who says a Christian can be in the government, which defends the wicked, destroys devout true believers (for that is what takes place), kills the innocent Jesus as a revolutionary and sets Barabbas, who committed murder in the revolt, free; and promotes savage horror and kills the friends of God while boasting of being the servants and slaves of God, but does not want to see or listen to the Son of God or his people; such a man strays far away from the truth.

Likewise: Christ, the Lord, tells John in his Revelation that in the place and realm where Christians (true Christians) and God’s faithful witnesses are put to death for their faith, there is the devil’s throne and dwelling-place (Rev. 2:[9-10]). The tyrants and murderers of the devout ought to hang this inscription around their necks and write it on their helmets and thrones. Otherwise the Lord himself will do it, so that they will not be able to blot it out unless they repent and become new men.

Pilate could be considered holy, Herod pious and honorable, if one compares their deeds with those of the princes, who boastfully call themselves Christian and evangelical. Herod and Pilate (who after all did not boast of Christ and his faith) did, to be sure, kill Christ, who was leading 4,000, 5,000 or 7,000 people about in the desert and teaching them (Mt. 14:[21]; 15:[38]; Jn. 6:[10]). They tolerated him a long time, and finally, as though under compulsion, they put him to death.

But these, who boast of having Christ and his truth, whenever they can find a single true Christian who leads only two or three people out of their ungodly lives and their adulterated church, such a person they put to death thirstily, and cannot tolerate him. How can they then be Christians? Much to the contrary: consider the sins, vices and great blasphemy and desecration the powerful enact against God, which they shower upon the acts of God and Christ to such a degree that the very elements pale and tremble—even Pilate and Herod did not do such!— not to speak of their exorbitant pomp and presumption. Alas, what

50. Text reads: 2 Cor. 2; 1 Jn. 2.

Christianity this is! Whoever is able should sweat blood and weep over such Christians. And boast as they may, their deeds are in plain view, so they cannot deny them; from this it follows once more—and doubly so— that they cannot be Christians. It would be a fact: If taking usury, snatching everything for themselves, violating girls and married women, fornicating without shame, creating widows and orphans, drinking up and laying to ruin the countryside and its inhabitants were Christian and evangelical, they would be the greatest multitude and their warriors the best Christians.

70
Christians and the world are as different as heaven and earth. The world is world and remains world and acts like the world, and all the world is one world. The Christian, however, is called out of the world and is required no longer to conform to the world (Jn. 15:[19]; 2 Cor. 6:[14-18]; Rev. 18:[4]; Rom. 12:[2]), no longer to be its consort (Eph. 5:[6-7]), no longer to walk in its disorderly confusion (1 Pet. 4:[1-6]), no longer to pull its yoke (2 Cor. 6:[14-18]).

Worldlings live according to the flesh, which rules them. They believe no one is around to observe; therefore they need the sword in their realm. Christians live according to the Spirit, which rules them. They believe the Lord is watching, that he is attentive; therefore they do not need the sword among themselves.

The Christians’ victory is “the faith which overcomes the world” (1 Jn. 5:[4]). The world’s victory is the sword with which it conquers.

To Christians is given an inner joy; they have joy in their hearts, holding to the unity in the Spirit through the bond of peace (Jn. 14:[15-27]; Eph. 4:[3]). The world has no peace; by sword and coercion alone it attempts to keep outward peace.

The Christian has patience, as the apostle writes: “Since therefore Christ suffered, . . .arm yourselves likewise with the same mind.”51
The world arms itself for the sake of revenge; it fights.

The Christian who can suffer everything for the sake of God is the most honorable. The world considers most dutiful the one who can defend himself with the sword against everyone else.

To sum up: Friendship with the world is enmity52 with God (Jas. 4:[4]), and whoever desires to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.


51. 1 Pet. 4:1.

If being a Christian could be accomplished with words and an empty name, if Christendom could regulate itself as it desired, if Christ would take pleasure in what pleases them, and the cross itself were to be sustained by means of the ugly sword, then rulers and subjects, indeed, most of the world, would probably be Christians. However, since man must be born anew (Jn. 3:[7]), must die to his old life in baptism (Rom. 6:[3-4]), and with Christ arise to a new life and Christian walk, that cannot be the case. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man (specifically, those who are rulers over others) to enter into the kingdom of God or into true Christianity (Mt. 19:[24]).

7153
(1) So says the world: The words of Christ, “the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them and their great men exercise coercion, but it shall not be so among you” (Mt. 20:[25]; Mk. 10:[42]; Lk. 22:[25]), refer only to the apostles, and do not include the church as a whole. Answer: This was spoken not only to the Twelve but to all the churches and members of Christ in general. It does not say, It shall not be so among you twelve, but just as Christ did not domineer, so we also should not domineer but follow after him in cross-bearing and suffering.

Here, in peace there is no cutting to bits; but through the cutting sword, peace is cut up. Isaiah the Prophet says that Christ will bear the government upon his shoulders (Isa. 9:[6]), and not possess or defend it with the sword, but maintain it by teaching. Likewise, the Apostle says, “We are oppressed” (1 Cor. 4:[9 ff]); and “Christ is given as a sign that will be opposed” (Lk. 2:[34]). Also: “If they persecute me, they will persecute you” (Jn. 15:[20]). “If they have called the householder Beelzebub, how much more will they do so to those of his household” (Mt. 10:[25]). Being addressed as “gracious lord” and as “Beelzebub” are two very different things. All of this is now common knowledge, that no Christian can be a “gracious lord” or a ruler, or be so addressed by the world, nor will the rulers be Christians.

52. In Friedmann, the text reads: “freundtschafft”; the original codex reads: “feündtschafft.”
53. A series of seventeen polemical responses to some of the “world’s” questions begins here, numbered consecutively, and continuing through point 87.

72
(2) They say: “But after all, the apostles carried swords. For when Christ was about to be seized Peter drew his sword and cut off the High Priest’s servant’s ear” (Mt. 26:[51]). Answer: It was like this. At that time Peter had a sword because they had just killed and eaten the Paschal lamb according to Jewish custom; and he took it because he had clearly understood from the Lord that he would on that very night be betrayed and taken. For the disciples were still clinging to much Jewishness. It does not follow, however, that we are to do the same.

Nor does it say that all of them had swords. They at that time still observed the Passover, but that does not mean that we should also keep it. Christ celebrated the Jewish Passover with them so that he might fulfill it, and instituted the Lord’s Supper to be held henceforth.

Thus it happened then that Peter was still going to fight with the sword so that Christ would cancel out the law, who rebuked him, “Put your sword back into its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”54 With these words he absolutely cuts off the use of the sword and requires of his people (among whom there is no place for the sword, as he plainly says) that they put it down. And Peter then put it into its place and left it there.

Consequently one finds nowhere that the other disciples ever again produced or drew a sword. Hence we should not pull out a sword in Christ’s church, for the worldly sword and the spiritual sword cannot dwell together in one sheath; each has its own sheath. The spiritual one belongs to the church of Christ, the worldly one to the world among the wicked, who strike with it.

That is why he announced to them that evil and punishment are attached to it; that whoever fights with the sword will be vanquished by it. For like a madman one will thereby have drawn the sword upon himself. The instrument with which one conducts his affairs will be the instrument of his reward or punishment; one sword whets the other
(Prov. 27:[17]), one rascal punishes the other, and thus they remove peace from the world (Rev. 6:[4]).

Therefore, what the immature disciples did in ignorance—for which Christ rebuked them and gave them a command—took place as an example for us, that we should not do so. For Christians are to fight with the cross and overcome with the cross, never wiping out or repaying insolence with insolence or audacity with audacity.

For the man who comes sword in hand does not have good intentions, and it is the first signal for seeking refuge. Therefore Christians cannot be

54. Mt. 26:52.
servants or bearers of the sword, nor assert power or wage war with it, because they have committed themselves to the one who taught peace.
Peter also denied his Lord;55 would you therefore say, “Peter did it,” and thereby testify that it is right to deny Christ? Oh, no! Thus likewise for using the sword, for which he was rebuked.

Continued:


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John Jay on the Biblical View of War
John Jay

First Supreme Court Chief Justice John Jay
Founding Father John Jay (1745-1829) was appointed by President George Washington as the first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court. In addition to serving on the Supreme Court, Jay had a very distinguished history of public service. He was a member of the Continental Congress (1774-76, 1778-79) and served as President of Congress (1778-79); he helped write the New York State constitution (1777); he authored the first manual on military discipline (1777); he served as Chief-Justice of New York Supreme Court (1777-78); he was appointed minister to Spain (1779); he signed the final peace treaty with Great Britain (1783); and he was elected as Governor of New York (1795- 1801). Jay is also famous as one of the three coauthors, along with James Madison and Alexander Hamilton, of the Federalist Papers, which were instrumental in securing the ratification of the federal Constitution. John Jay was a strong Christian, serving both as vice-president of the American Bible Society (1816-21) and its president (1821- 27), and he was a member of American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions. In this series of letters, John Jay expounds on the Biblical view of war.
Letter 1
. . . .

Whether war of every description is prohibited by the gospel, is one of those questions on which the excitement of any of the passions can produce no light. An answer to it can result only from careful investigation and fair reasoning.

It appears to me that the gospel not only recognizes the whole moral law, and extends and perfects our knowledge of it, but also enjoins on all mankind the observance of it. Being ordained by a legislator of infinite wisdom and rectitude, and in whom there is “no variableness,” it must be free from imperfection, and therefore never has, nor ever will require amendment or alteration. Hence I conclude that the moral law is exactly the same now that it was before the flood.

That all those wars and fightings are unlawful, which proceed from culpable desires and designs (or in Scripture language from lusts), on the one side or on the other, is too clear to require proof. As to wars of an opposite description, and many such there have been, I believe they are as lawful to the unoffending party in our days, as they were in the days of Abraham. He waged war against and defeated the five kings. He piously dedicated a tenth of the spoils; and, instead of being blamed, was blessed.

What should we think of a human legislator who should authorize or encourage infractions of his own laws ? If wars of every kind and description are prohibited by the moral law, I see no way of reconciling such a prohibition with those parts of Scripture which record institutions, declarations, and interpositions of the Almighty which manifestly evince the contrary. If every war is sinful, how did it happen that the sin of waging any war is not specified among the numerous sins and offenses which are mentioned and reproved in both the Testaments?

To collect and arrange the many facts and arguments which relate to this subject would require more time and application than I am able to bestow. The aforegoing are hinted merely to exhibit some of the reasons on which my opinion rests.

It certainly is very desirable that a pacific disposition should prevail among all nations. The most effectual way of producing it is by extending the prevalence and influence of the gospel. Real Christians will abstain from violating the rights of others, and therefore will not provoke war.

Almost all nations have peace or war at the will and pleasure of rulers whom they do not elect, and who are not always wise or virtuous. Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.

. . . .

Letter 2

In my letter to you of the 16th October last, I hinted that I might perhaps write and send you a few more lines on the question, whether war of every description is forbidden by the gospel.

I will now add some remarks to those which were inserted in my answer to your first letter. In that answer, the lawfulness of war, in certain cases, was inferred from those Divine positive institutions which authorized and regulated it. For although those institutions were not dictated by the moral law, yet they cannot be understood to authorize what the moral law forbids.

The moral or natural law was given by the Sovereign of the universe to all mankind; with them it was co-eval, and with them it will be co-existent. Being rounded by infinite wisdom and goodness on essential right, which never varies, it can require no amendment or alteration.

Divine positive ordinances and institutions, on the other hand, being founded on expediency, which is not always perpetual or immutable, admit of, and have received, alteration and limitation in sundry instances.

There were several Divine positive ordinances and institutions at very early periods. Some of them were of limited obligation, as circumcision; others of them were of universal obligation, as the Sabbath, marriage, sacrifices, the particular punishment for murder.

The Lord of the Sabbath caused the day to be changed. The ordinances of Moses suffered the Israelites to exercise more than the original liberty allowed to marriage, but our Savior repealed that indulgence. When sacrifices had answered their purpose as types of the great Sacrifice, etc., they ceased. The punishment for murder has undergone no alteration, either by Moses or by Christ.

I advert to this distinction between the moral law and positive institutions, because it enables us to distinguish the reasonings which apply to the one, from those which apply only to the other—ordinances being mutable, but the moral law always the same.

To this you observe, by way of objection, that the law was given by Moses, but that grace and truth came by Jesus Christ; and hence that, even as it relates to the moral law, a more perfect system is enjoined by the gospel than was required under the law, which admitted of an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, tolerating a spirit of retaliation. And further, that, if the moral law was the same now that it was before the flood, we must call in question those precepts of the gospel which prohibit some things allowed of and practiced by the patriarchs.

It is true that the law was given by Moses, not however in his individual or private capacity, but as the agent or instrument, and by the authority of the Almighty. The law demanded exact obedience, and proclaimed: “Cursed is every one that contineth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.” The law was inexorable, and by requiring perfect obedience, under a penalty so inevitable and dreadful, operated as a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ for mercy.

Mercy, and grace, and favor did come by Jesus Christ; and also that truth which verified the promises and predictions concerning him, and which exposed and corrected the various errors which had been imbibed respecting the Supreme Being, his attributes, laws, and dispensations. Uninspired commentators have dishonored the law, by ascribing to it, in certain cases, a sense and meaning which it did not authorize, and which our Savior rejected and reproved.

The inspired prophets, on the contrary, express the most exalted ideas of the law. They declare that the law of the Lord is perfect, that the statutes of the Lord are right; and that the commandment of the Lord is pure; that God would magnify the law and make it honorable, etc.

Our Savior himself assures us that he came not to destroy the law and the prophets, but to fulfill; that whoever shall do and teach the commandments, shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven; that it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. This certainly amounts to a full approbation of it. Even after the resurrection of our Lord, and after the descent of the Holy Spirit, and after the miraculous conversion of Paul, and after the direct revelation of the Christian dispensation to him, he pronounced this memorable encomium on the law, viz.: “The law is holy, and the commandments holy, just, and good.”

It is true that one of the positive ordinances of Moses, to which you allude, did ordain retaliation, or, in other words, a tooth for a tooth. But we are to recollect that it was ordained, not as a rule to regulate the conduct of private individuals towards each other, but as a legal penalty or punishment for certain offenses. Retaliation is also manifest in the punishment prescribed for murder—life for life. Legal punishments are adjusted and inflicted by the law and magistrate, and not by unauthorized individuals. These and all other positive laws or ordinances established by Divine direction, must of necessity be consistent with the moral law. It certainly was not the design of the law or ordinance in question, to encourage a spirit of personal or private revenge. On the contrary, there are express injunctions in the law of Moses which inculcate a very different spirit; such as these: “Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people; but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.” “Love the stranger, for ye were strangers in Egypt.” “If thou meet thy enemy’s ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him,” etc., etc.

There is reason to believe that Solomon understood the law in its true sense, and we have his opinion as to retaliation of injuries, viz.: “Say not, I will recompense evil; but wait upon the Lord, and He will save thee.” Again: “Say not, I will do to him as he hath done to me. I will render to the man according to his work.” And again:” If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink; for thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the Lord shall reward thee.”

But a greater than Solomon has removed all doubts on this point. On being asked by a Jewish lawyer, which was the great commandment in the law, our Savior answered: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and the great commandment, and the second is like unto it: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” It is manifest, therefore, that the love of God and the love of man are enjoined by the law; and as the genuine love of the one comprehends that of the other, the apostle assures us that “Love is the fulfilling of the law.”

It is, nevertheless, certain, that erroneous opinions respecting retaliation, and who were to be regarded as neighbors, had long prevailed, and that our Savior blamed and corrected those and many other unfounded doctrines.

That the patriarchs sometimes violated the moral law, is a position not to be disputed. They were men, and subject to the frailties of our fallen nature. But I do not know nor believe, that any of them violated the moral law by the authority or with the approbation of the Almighty. I can find no instance of it in the Bible. Nor do I know of any action done according to the moral law, that is censured or forbidden by the gospel. On the contrary, it appears to me that the gospel strongly enforces the whole moral law, and clears it from the vain traditions and absurd comments which had obscured and misapplied certain parts of it.

As, therefore, Divine ordinances did authorize just war, as those ordinances were necessarily consistent with the moral law, and as the moral law is incorporated in the Christian dispensation, I think it follows that the right to wage just and necessary war is admitted, and not abolished, by the gospel.

You seem to doubt whether there ever was a just war, and that it would puzzle even Solomon to find one.

Had such a doubt been proposed to Solomon, an answer to it would probably have been suggested to him by a very memorable and interesting war which occurred in his day. I allude to the war in which his brother Absalom on the one side, and his father David on the other, were the belligerent parties. That war was caused by, and proceeded from, “the lusts” of Absalom, and was horribly wicked. But the war waged against him by David was not caused by, nor did proceed from, “the lusts” of David, but was right, just, and necessary. Had David submitted to be dethroned by his detestable son, he would, in my opinion, have violated his moral duty and betrayed his official trust.

Although just war is not forbidden by the gospel in express terms, yet you think an implied prohibition of all war, without exception, is deducible from the answer of our Lord to Pilate, viz.: “If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight,” etc.

At the conclusion of the Last Supper, our Lord said to his disciples: “He that hath no sword, let him now sell his garment and buy one,” They answered: “Lord, here are two swords.” He replied: “It is enough.”

It is not to be presumed that our Lord would have ordered swords to be provided, but for some purpose for which a sword was requisite; nor that he would have been satisfied with two, if more had been necessary.

Whatever may have been the purposes for which swords were ordered, it is certain that the use of one of those swords soon caused an event which confirmed the subsequent defense of our Lord before Pilate, and also produced other important results. When the officers and their band arrived, with swords and with staves, to take Jesus, they who were about him saw what would follow. “They said unto him: Lord, shall we smite with the sword?” It does not appear that any of the eleven disciples who were with him, except one, made the least attempt to defend him. But Peter, probably inferring from the order for swords, that they were now to be used, proceeded to “smite a servant of the high-priest, and cut off his right ear.” Jesus (perhaps, among other reasons, to abate inducements to prosecute Peter for that violent attack) healed the ear.

He ordered Peter to put his sword into its sheath, and gave two reasons for it. The first related to himself, and amounted to this, that he would make no opposition, saying: “The cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink?” The second related to Peter, viz., they who take the sword, shall perish by the sword; doubtless meaning that they who take and use a sword, as Peter had just done, without lawful authority, and against lawful authority, incur the penalty and risk of perishing by the sword. This meaning seems to be attached to those words by the occasion and circumstances which prompted them. If understood in their unlimited latitude, they would contradict the experience and testimony of all ages, it being manifest that many military men die peaceably in their beds.

The disciples did believe and expect that Jesus had come to establish a temporal kingdom. “They trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel.” “They knew not the Scripture, that he must rise again from the dead; questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.” Even after his resurrection, they appear to have entertained the same belief and expectation; for on the very day he ascended, they asked him: “Lord, wilt thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

The order for swords, and the declaration that two were enough, tended to confirm that belief and expectation, and to inspire a confidence that he who had commanded the winds and the waves, and had raised the dead to life, was able, as well as willing, to render the two swords sufficient to vanquish his enemies. Could anything less than such a firm belief and confidence have prompted eleven such men, and with only two swords among them, to offer to “smite with the sword” the armed band, which, under officers appointed by the Jewish rulers, had come to apprehend their Master?

Great must have been the disappointment and astonishment of the disciples, when Jesus unexpectedly and peaceably submitted to the power and malice of his enemies, directing Peter to sheath his sword, and hinting to him the danger he had incurred by drawing it: amazed and terrified, they forsook him and fled. This catastrophe so surprised and subdued the intrepidity of Peter, that he was no longer “ready to go with his Master to prison and to death.”

It seems that perplexity, consternation, and tumultuous feelings overwhelmed his faith and reflection, and that his agitations, receiving fresh excitement from the danger and dread of discovery, which soon after ensued, impelled him with heedless precipitation to deny his Master. This denial proved bitter to Peter, and it taught him and others that spiritual strength can be sustained only by the spiritual bread which cometh down from heaven.

The Jews accused Jesus before Pilate of aspiring to the temporal sovereignty of their nation, in violation of the legal rights of Caesar. Jesus, in his defense, admitted that he was king, but declared that his kingdom was not of this world. For the truth of this assertion, he appealed to the peaceable behavior of his adherents, saying:” If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews, but now is my kingdom not from hence.”

Pilate, who doubtless well knew what had been the conduct of Jesus, both before and at the time of his apprehension, was satisfied, but the Jews were not. They exclaimed: “If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar’s friend; whosoever maketh himself a king, speaketh against Caesar.” “We have no king but Caesar.”

You and I understand the words in question very differently. Is there the least reason to infer from the belief and conduct of the disciples, that they were restrained from fighting by the consideration that their Master’s kingdom was not of this world? On the contrary, did they not believe and expect that he had come to restore one of the kingdoms of this world to Israel? The fact is, that they were ready and willing to fight. Did they not ask him: “Lord, shall we smite with the sword?” It was his will, therefore, and not their will, which restrained them from fighting; and for that restraint he assigned a very conclusive reason, viz., because his kingdom was not of this world.

To the advancement and support of his spiritual sovereignty over his spiritual kingdom, soldiers and swords and corporeal exertions were inapplicable and useless. But, on the other hand, soldiers and swords and corporeal exertions are necessary to enable the several temporal rulers of the states and kingdoms of this world to maintain their authority and protect themselves and their people; and our Savior expressly declared that if his kingdom had been of this world, then would his servants fight to protect him; or, in other words, that then, and in that case, he would not have restrained them from fighting. The lawfulness of such fighting, therefore, instead of being denied, is admitted and confirmed by that declaration.

This exposition coincides with the answer given by John the Baptist (who was “filled with the Holy Ghost”) to the soldiers who asked him what they should do, viz.: “Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely, and be content with your wages.” Can these words be rationally understood as meaning that they should receive wages for nothing; or that, when ordered to march against the enemy, they should refuse to proceed; or that, on meeting the enemy, they should either run away, or passively submit to be captured or slaughtered? This would be attaching a meaning to his answer very foreign to the sense of the words in which he expressed it.

Had the gospel regarded war as being in every case sinful, it seems strange that the apostle Paul should have been so unguarded as, in teaching the importance of faith, to use an argument which clearly proves the lawfulness of war, viz.: “That it was through faith that Gideon, David, and others waxed valiant in fight, and turned to flight the armies of aliens”; thereby confirming the declaration of David, that it was God who had “girded him with strength to battle; and had taught his hands to war, and his fingers to fight.”

The gospel appears to me to consider the servants of Christ as having two capacities or characters, with correspondent duties to sustain and fulfill.

Being subjects of his spiritual kingdom, they are bound in that capacity to fight, pursuant to his orders, with spiritual weapons, against his and their spiritual enemies.

Being also subjects and partakers in the rights and interests of a temporal or worldly state or kingdom, they are in that capacity bound, whenever lawfully required, to fight with weapons in just and necessary war, against the worldly enemies of that state or kingdom.

Another view may be taken of the subject. The depravity which mankind inherited from their first parents, introduced wickedness into the world. That wickedness rendered human government necessary to restrain the violence and injustice resulting from it. To facilitate the establishment and administration of government, the human race became, in the course of Providence, divided into separate and distinct nations. Every nation instituted a government, with authority and power to protect it against domestic and foreign aggressions. Each government provided for the internal peace and security of the nation, by laws for punishing their offending subjects. The law of all the nations prescribed the conduct which they were to observe towards each other, and allowed war to be waged by an innocent against an offending nation, when rendered just and necessary by unprovoked, atrocious, and unredressed injuries.

Thus two kinds of justifiable warfare arose: one against domestic malefactors; the other against foreign aggressors. The first being regulated by the law of the land; the second by the law of nations; and both consistently with the moral law.

As to the first species of warfare, in every state or kingdom, the government or executive ruler has, throughout all ages, pursued, and often at the expense of blood, attacked, captured, and subdued murderers, robbers, and other offenders; by force confining them in chains and in prisons, and by force inflicting on them punishment; never rendering to them good for evil, for that duty attaches to individuals in their personal or private capacities, but not to rulers or magistrates in their official capacities. This species of war has constantly and universally been deemed just and indispensable. On this topic the gospel is explicit. It commands us to obey the higher powers or ruler. It reminds us that “he beareth not the sword in vain”; that “he is the minister of God, and a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” Now, if he is not to bear the sward in vain, it follows that he is to use it to execute wrath on evildoers, and consequently to draw blood and to kill on proper occasions.

As to the second species of warfare, it certainly is as reasonable and as right that a nation be secure against injustice, disorder, and rapine from without as from within; and therefore it is the right and duty of the government or ruler to use force and the sword to protect and maintain the rights of his people against evildoers of another nation. The reason and necessity of using force and the sword being the same in both cases, the right or the law must be the same also.

We are commanded to render to our government, or to our Caesar, “the things that are Caesar’s” that is, the things which belong to him, and not the things which do not belong to him. And surely this command cannot be construed to intend or imply that we ought to render to the Caesar of another nation more than belongs to him.

In case some powerful Caesar should demand of us to receive and obey a king of his nomination, and unite with him in all his wars, or that he would commence hostilities against us, what answer would it be proper for us to give to such a demand? In my opinion, we ought to refuse, and vigorously defend our independence by arms. To what other expedient could we have recourse? I cannot think that the gospel authorizes or encourages us, on such an occasion, to abstain from resistance, and to expect miracles to deliver us.

A very feeble unprepared nation, on receiving such a demand, might hesitate and find it expedient to adopt the policy intimated in the gospel, viz.: “What king, going to war against another king, sitteth not down first and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand; or else he sendeth an embassage, and desireth conditions of peace “—that is, makes the best bargain he can.

If the United States should unanimously resolve never more to use the sword, would a certified copy of it prove to be an effectual Mediterranean passport? Would it reform the predatory rulers of Africa, or persuade the successive potentates of Europe to observe towards us the conduct of real Christians? On the contrary, would it not present new facilities, and consequently produce new excitements, to the gratification of avarice and ambition?

It is true that even just war is attended with evils, and so likewise is the administration of government and of justice; but is that a good reason for abolishing either of them? They are means by which greater evils are averted. Among the various means necessary to obviate or remove, or repress, or to mitigate the various calamities, dangers, and exigencies, to which in this life we are exposed, how few are to be found which do not subject us to troubles, privations, and inconveniences of one kind or other. To prevent the incursion or continuance of evils, we must submit to the use of those means, whether agreeable or otherwise, which reason and experience prescribe.

It is also true, and to be lamented, that war, however just and necessary, sends many persons out of this world who are ill prepared for a better. And so also does the law in all countries. So also does navigation, and other occupations. Are they therefore all sinful and forbidden?

However desirable the abolition of all wars may be, yet until the morals and manners of mankind are greatly changed, it will be found impracticable. We are taught that national sins will be punished, and war is one of the punishments. The prophets predict wars at so late a period as the restoration of the Israelites. Who or what can hinder the occurrence of those wars?

I nevertheless believe, and have perfect faith in the prophecy, that the time will come when “the nations will beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; when nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” But does not this prophecy clearly imply, and give us plainly to understand, that in the meanwhile, and until the arrival of that blessed period, the nations will not beat their swords into plowshares, nor their spears into pruning-hooks; that nation will not forbear to lift up sword against nation, nor cease to learn war?

It may be asked, Are we to do nothing to hasten the arrival of that happy period? Literally, no created being can either accelerate or retard its arrival. It will not arrive sooner nor later than the appointed time.

There certainly is reason to expect, that as great providential events have usually been preceded and introduced by the intervention of providential means to prepare the way for them, so the great event in question will be preceded and introduced in like manner. It is, I think, more than probable, that the unexpected and singular cooperation and the extra ordinary zeal and efforts of almost all Christian nations to extend the light and knowledge of the gospel, and to inculcate its doctrines, are among those preparatory means. It is the duty of Christians to promote the prevalence and success of such means, and to look forward with faith and hope to the result of them.

But whatever may be the time or the means adopted by Providence for the abolition of war, I think we may, without presumption, conclude that mankind must be prepared and fitted for the reception, enjoyment, and preservation of universal permanent peace, before they will be blessed with it. Are they as yet fitted for it? Certainly not. Even if it was practicable, would it be wise to disarm the good before “the wicked cease from troubling?” By what other means than arms and military force can unoffending rulers and nations protect their rights against unprovoked aggressions from within and from without? Are there any other means to which they could recur, and on the efficacy of which they could rely? To this question I have not as yet heard, nor seen, a direct and precise answer.


Source: The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry Johnston, editor (New York: G. P. Punam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, pp. 391-393, 403-419, letters to John Murray, October 12, 1816 and April 15, 1818. [John Jay's writings are available on CD-Rom from WallBuilders]

L
Leo_Grace

Wonderful read. Thank you, John.

S
sermonindex

This is the last paragraph of John Jays response.

"But whatever may be the time or the means adopted by
Providence for the abolition of war, I think we may, without presumption, conclude that mankind must be prepared and fitted for the reception, enjoyment, and preservation of universal permanent peace, before they will be blessed with it. Are they as yet fitted for it? Certainly not. Even if it was practicable, would it be wise to disarm the good before “the wicked cease from troubling?” By what other means than arms and military force can unoffending rulers and nations protect their rights against unprovoked aggressions from within and from without? Are there any other means to which they could recur, and on the efficacy of which they could rely? To this question I have not as yet heard, nor seen, a direct and precise answer."

S
sermonindex

Chief Justice Jay says........

"Being also subjects and partakers in the rights and interests of a temporal or worldly state or kingdom, they are in that capacity bound, whenever lawfully required, to fight with weapons in just and necessary war, against the worldly enemies of that state or kingdom. "

He is making reference to the Apostles. Now here is an interesting point. In all the conjecture that arises by words spoken to soldiers, beit John the Baptist or Jesus(they were never told not to fight, ergo, fighting must be okay, possibly one of the weakest arguments ever raised, arguments from silence) here is an opportunity for actual proofs. I ask the readers, if the good justice is correct, then all living Apotles( and that was most of them) in the years of 67-70ad, would have been found to have been defending, to the death, their country which was being destroyed by Rome. If ever there was a time for a just war , surely it would have been then. And yet, no, they did not fight. Something to think about........Frank


I
imnowhere

I ask the readers, if the good justice is correct, then all living Apotles( and that was most of them) in the years of 67-70ad, would have been found to have been defending, to the death, their country which was being destroyed by Rome.


Forgive me for jumping in late and not having read the entire post, but the above comment completely misses the point that in Romans 13 those that bear the sword are referred to as 'ministers of God' though there be no mention of their being 'saved' or not. (Though we know clearly that none of the Apostles were in gov't office fulfilling the calling of those in Romans 13, unlike many of the officers durring the war of independance who were also Presbyterian elders)

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Government is as much an institution of God as marriage and the church. There has been a great message put out by Vision Forum which historically shows that whenever the balance of the three institutions is disrupted by the church then there arises problems.

Paul shows in Romans 13 that if you have been placed in gov't as a soldier/judge etc you have a God-given mandate to uphold justice and not 'bear the sword in vain'.

If you are a christian, then you have 2 distinct offices that aren't in conflict but will definitely take godly wisdom to excercise and carry out properly together.

If you are a believer and not gov't, you have no right to disrespect those that are 'God's ministers' whether they be believers or not, and especially if they are believers , who are carrying out their role in a goodly manner (though we are to respect the authority of even those that don't).

I once had the opportunity to show a christian police officer who was having some internal conflict Paul's words in Romans 13 which gave him great comfort and peace about carrying out his job.


A great book that illustrates this is called 'Behind Enemy Lines' written by an ex US Navy Seal who was asked to be on the elite team above the Seals and turned it down to go to MacArthur's Seminary and become a pastor. He shares very effectively how a christian soldier can go, with a peaceful conscience, to fight to defend the innocent.


I apologize if this is a repeat of previous posts.


L
Leo_Grace

Frank,

In all the conjecture that arises by words spoken to soldiers, beit John the Baptist or Jesus(they were never told not to fight, ergo, fighting must be okay, possibly one of the weakest arguments ever raised, arguments from silence) here is an opportunity for actual proofs.

I think you are unfairly misrepresenting the solid arguments presented by the Chief Justice in his treatise. You have oversimplified it to a point where it appears weak and without basis, which is not what one would conclude if one takes time to read the entirety of his letters. The absence of a "just war" during the first century AD means little in the face of a broad history of just wars ordered or supported by God in order to uphold his moral law in the old testament.

Our God does not change; He is the same yesterday, today and forever. The ordinances that needed to be revised in the transition between the old covenant (in the Law) and the new (in the Spirit) were all clearly dealt with in the NT by Paul, Peter, and the other Apostles. They had ample opportunity to teach a prohibition on future wars if they had been so led by God -- they did not. In fact, Paul, while teaching on faith, openly honored the warriors and rulers of the past who fought, conquered, and administered faithfully before God.

The fact that the nation of Israel was crushed and broken under the heel of the Romans (and other previous foreign powers) was the will of God. He would not have moved them through the Spirit to fight the Romans.

I respectfully suggest that you try reading the entire article with an open and teachable heart, and not with a set agenda.

In Jesus,
Leo

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Frank...

I ask the readers, if the good justice is correct, then all living Apotles( and that was most of them) in the years of 67-70ad, would have been found to have been defending, to the death, their country which was being destroyed by Rome. If ever there was a time for a just war , surely it would have been then. [b]And yet, no, they did not fight.[/b]

This isn't just about those who are called to be apostles. Some are apostles, prophets...and some are teachers. Others are not "full-time" or "office" ministers. Many (if not MOST) believers didn't hold such a decorated office or title. To this end, we really don't know the entire, extensive history of every believer in the early church.

We don't know how many believers served in the military, politics or other government jobs. The Book of Acts, after all, followed Paul and Peter (and a few others), and did not talk much about the life of, say, Cornelius the Centurion. Did he continue his service as a Centurion for Rome after his meeting with Peter? We just don't know because the Word doesn't say. Thus, to say that no believer during this period served in the armed forces of Rome (or elsewhere) is somewhat speculative at best. Furthermore, we really don't have any record of what the early believers would have done in other instances (such as if their families were attacked by an unlawful intruder). We can claim that writings of certain early Church leaders indicate a particular persuasion...but this too is merely a persuasion of a particular writer and not necessarily indicative of a "norm" and certainly unreflective of any sort of Scriptural requirement.

As far as believers who "fight" (at least, in battle)...I know some. I know some of the most sincere believers that I have ever met who serve or have served in the armed forces or police. These are godly men who certainly do not long to kill someone. They love the Lord. These men prayed about entering into such service and felt the liberty to do so. I suppose that some individuals can question whether or not they were "led" by God into such service. However, the fact remains that these men sincerely believe that they are serving the Lord during their military or police duty.

Again, I think that it would be incorrect to assert that none of the early believers "fought" in a sense of military service or in defense of their families (or others). There just isn't a complete record to make such a claim.

C
ChrisJD

I ask the readers, if the good justice is correct, then all living Apotles( and that was most of them) in the years of 67-70ad, would have been found to have been defending, to the death, their country which was being destroyed by Rome. If ever there was a time for a just war , surely it would have been then. And yet, no, they did not fight.

Frank, since this was mentioned earlier in the thread I hope it will be alright to respond again to it also.

The disciples were warned to [b]flee[/b] from Jerusalem when they saw it being surrounded by armies(Luke 21:20-22).

The reason they were told for this was that God's wrath was going to be upon the people(Luke 21:23).

See also Mat 22:7, 23:32,34-36.

I think that Paul may have indicated this also 1Thessalonians 2:14-16.


I think the scriptures indicate the nation wasn't being destroyed by Rome. But by God.

C
chapel


“Concerning the Sword”: A Hutterian Apologia of 1577
[Article IV of the Great Article Book]

EDITED BY LEONARD GROSS*
TRANSLATED BY ELIZABETH HORSCH BENDER, ET AL.

This translation first appeared in the January 2009 issue of the
Mennonite Quarterly Review.


73
(3) They say: When the Lord answered Peter, “All who take the sword will perish by the sword” (Mt. 26:[52]), he meant that those who draw the sword on their own authority, and not according to its proper use, will be slain by the sword. Also that the words in Matthew 5:[39], “You shall not resist evil or kill,” do not refer to the government, but only to the individual. In the same way it says, “Thou shalt not kill,”56 yet on the other hand there were many laws on how to deal with this or that evildoer in order to eradicate evil. Hence, they say, there can be a ruler among Christian people.

Answer: They are trying to make these passages refer to special persons and deny their validity for worldly government, but it is obvious that Christ applied and cited this statement just as it was given to judges and rulers in the Old Testament (for among the ancients no one could have carried out such commands on his own but this had to take place through those officially appointed)—with Jesus using not [the singular] “thou,” but “you” (note: the plural “you” which excludes no Christian):57 “You shall not resist evil.”

It therefore follows that such passages do not refer to particular individuals but apply to all Christians in general, that none of them is to fight with the sword or resist evil. When Peter struck out with his sword, Jesus told him to let them proceed, 58 as if he wanted to say, “Just let them exercise their evil intentions, in so far as is permitted them. The deed has its judge, so we are not to avenge ourselves.” That is the obligation of Christians in every age in adversity and tribulation. We do not oppose worldly authority instituted by God, but acknowledge that it is necessary in the world. We also commit ourselves to obeying them in outward matters in so far as this is right. But we do not transfer the dictates of the law to the New Testament.

55. Mt. 26:69.
56. Ex. 20:13 and elsewhere.
57. “nit du, sonder ir.”
58. Mt. 26 51-54.

In Leviticus we read that anyone who is convicted of adultery on the testimony of two or three witnesses shall be stoned to death without mercy (Lev. 20:[10];59 [Deut. 17:6]; Heb. [10:28]). Now if they want to transfer the government of the Old Testament to the New, they cannot ban the adulterer for his betterment as Paul teaches, but must judge him according to the severity of the old law. If they are unwilling to judge in accord with the Old and New Testaments they must judge in accord with the imperial laws like the heathen. So they act neither according to the Old, nor to the New Testament.

74
(4) They say: After all, Christ laid hands on and drove the buyers and sellers out of the temple with a scourge (Jn. 2:[15]).60

Answer: This was still his prerogative, for the law was not yet annulled, and the New Testament had not yet been separated from the Old or confirmed by his death. For a testament is not valid, in force or confirmed until the death of the one who made it (Heb. 9:17). Then when that has taken place it is obligatory to follow it completely in every detail. But just as it is not true that a scourge is in itself a sword, it is also untrue and much more so that Christ thereby wanted Christians to apply or use human coercion against anyone.

75
(5) They say: How is it then that the law and the Gospel do not contradict one another, and that the law is not annulled by faith and is not supposed to be against those who live in the Spirit, and yet the law and the Gospel are not to be practiced together essentially by one person?

Answer: The function of the law and the office of Christ are widely different. For if the function of the law and the office of Christ were intended to be a single office or practiced together, then Christ would have done wrong in forbidding his disciples to take vengeance when they referred to Elijah.61

But the outward shadowy and servile law in the Old Testament that was laid upon former times, whether in reference to the priesthood or to the office of judgment, and the law concerning force having dominion over the nations or repaying and punishing evil with evil as was their practice, was only an outward foreshadowing of what is inward and

59. Text reads: Lev. 2.
60. Text reads: Mt. 21.
61. Lk. 9:54-55.

spiritual. It was not given to be valid and to stand forever in its former outward expression but to be valid only until an age of a better law. For “if there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well (Heb. 7:[12]). If the first had been faultless or sufficient, it would not have been necessary to seek a second (Heb. 8:[7]). But they were made aware of something lacking. Thus the age in which the outward and carnal law was given, in so far as its preparatory purpose and meaning are concerned, has not been supplanted, but fulfilled and completed in Christ (Mt. 5:[17]).

Thus the outward law (which pointed to the inward and spiritual law and is no longer valid in the older sense) accomplished this—that Christ is the end of the law. (Rom. 10:[4]). For when he annulled the first and servile law he established the other, which is spiritual and makes known what the outward and servile law prefigured and represented (Heb. 10:[9]), and he perfects and fulfills it and says that not one iota will pass from the law until all has been accomplished and fulfilled (Mt. 5:[18]), and that he did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Since the outward law did not last beyond the coming of the new and spiritual, which completes and fulfills the old and outward law (in its meaning), it follows that the two cannot be in opposition. Yet they cannot both be practiced together essentially or enforced as if they were the same. But Christ has made the two into one. He has broken down the middle wall and brought everything together, so that there is neither Jew nor Greek, but a new creation (Eph. 2:[14-15]), and all is under the New Testament, so that people are no longer followers of Moses or heathen but they are Christians (Gal. 3:[28];62 6:[15]).

Therefore, as the Levitical priesthood and the judgmental law to punish the transgressor were given through Moses to be practiced together, so also Christ has inaugurated the royal priesthood 63 and also the royal law, which is spiritual and not carnal, for his followers, the Christians,64 to be practiced together in the Christian church, punishing transgression with exclusion (Mt. 18:[17]).

76
They also say: The Son is never in conflict with the Father. He therefore does not break what the Father has once ordained, nor do away with it. So if the Father has ordained government it must also remain in Christ, or the Son would be in conflict with the Father.


62. Text reads: Gal. 5.
63. 1 Pet. 2:9.
64. Jas. 2:8.

Answer: It is true that the Son is not in conflict with the Father; the two are one.65 But it does not follow that what the Father had once established must remain in Christ. For then Christ’s grace would be in vain. The reason is that, after the fall, the Father condemned all men to death. But by his death Christ removed the might and power of death and has thus restored life in all who believe in his Name. He is therefore not in conflict with the Father but has instead fulfilled the Father’s promise. Furthermore, God ordained and commanded circumcision so firmly to Abraham that any uncircumcised male infant was to be cut off from the nation (Gen. 17:[14]).66 But in Christ it is abolished. Also, the Father commanded that they love their friend and hate their enemy (Mt. 5:[43]); when Saul did not do this, but spared the enemy, the king of the Amalekites, and let him live, he was expelled from the kingdom.

Nevertheless, Christ commands that we love not only our friends but also our enemies. There are many other things that the Father ordained, such as sacrifices, the Sabbath and the like, which have ceased and ended in Christ (in whom the essence is the same). Therefore one should not say so arrogantly that the Son is for that reason in conflict with the Father, but rather: What the Father has ordained in Christ will remain in him and will not be changed—such as love, peace, unity and community. But what he has ordained outside of Christ, such as death, wrath, ruthlessness, cursing, swearing, revenge and their servants, will also be out of place in Christendom.

77
(7) They may also say: We find that the prophets prophesied about Christ. Yet they do not expel government from the institution of worship and service to God, but instead show what its office and service in Christ is really to be. As Isaiah says, “Kings shall be your foster fathers, and their queens your nursing mothers.”67 Likewise in the Revelation of John: “The kings of the earth shall bring their glory and honor” into the New Jerusalem.68

Answer: We believe that where the prophets foretell and predict about Christ they rejected nobody from the testament of God’s grace, because Christ is an open door into eternal life for all mankind. But the ruler under Christ must rid himself of his domination

65. Jn. 17:22.
66. Text reads: 1 Sam. 15.
67. Isa. 49:23.
68. Rev. 21:24.

and worldly reign because it does not befit a Christian to rule, but to be subject (Jn. 6:[15]; Mt. 20:[25]). Rulers must arm themselves with the mind of Christ, who suffered and bore the cross here on earth (1 Pet. 4:[1]; Lk. 9:[23]). They must also become children of his Spirit. They must pass through the eye of the needle (Mt. 19:[24]), and enter through the narrow gate (Mt. 7:[13]), which will brush the sword from their side.
They must turn around and become like children if they are to become Christians (Mt. 18:[3]).

For the Prophet Isaiah, when he says, Kings shall become the foster fathers of the church of Christ, adds: “With their faces to the ground they shall bow down to you and lick the dust from your feet (Isa. 49:[23]). Elsewhere he says that every mountain and hill shall be lowered and made level with the valleys of the earth (Isa. 40:[4]). That means giving up domination and power and splendor, becoming lowly, amending one’s life and turning around; it means conversion. And it shows, by virtue of the new nature in the Spirit (Rom. 7:[6]), that they will truly serve God and his church as Paul did, who was such a man. Paul says: “We were gentle among you, like a nurse taking care of her children. So, being affectionately desirous of you, we were ready to share with you not only the gospel of God but also our own lives” (1 Thess. 2:[7-8]).

Oh, I69 wish to God there were many such foster fathers and kings on earth who are made such kings and priests of God through the blood of Christ (Rev 1:[6]). They would bring all their glory and honor, their crowns and fame, into the New Jerusalem.70 Here there is no mention of worldly kings and rulers of the world, for those who wield the sword and act violently and rudely are not foster fathers, but servants of vengeance among the ungodly of this world. And if they were supposed to bring their glory and honor, dominion, and pomp and pride into the New Jerusalem, then Lucifer would not have fallen but would well have been permitted to stay in heaven.

78
(8) The world says further: But we read expressly that when the soldiers came to John the Baptist and asked what they should do, he did not forbid warfare, but said, “Do no violence or injustice to any man, and be content with your wages” (Lk. 3:[14]).

Answer: The law was not yet abrogated or brought to perfection. The curtain in the temple was not yet rent, and the New Testament not yet differentiated from the Old. John

69. One of the few places where the writer uses the first person.
70. 2 Cor. 1; 1 Thess. 2.

was simply a forerunner of the paths of Christ to make an opening and beginning in Israel (Mt. 3:[3]). But Christ came to us from the Father fully prepared as a new and living path;71 he says then, since he came later, “It was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill;72 but I say to you, he who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘You fool!’
shall be liable to the hell of fire” (Mt. 5:[21-22])—not to mention him who kills. Likewise: “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand’ (Ex. 20:[13]; 21:[24]; Deut. 19:[21]).
But I say to you, do not resist one who is evil. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also” (Mt. 5:[39]).

Where, then, is there a place for a soldier in Christendom? There no soldier will or can stay, for the Gospel removes his sword; the combatant and defender with a sword has no place there. For the wolf must become a sheep and lay aside his wolfish fangs. The lion must eat grass like cattle. They shall graze together in one herd (Isa. 11:[6]; 65:[25]). For Christ and the apostles teach their followers: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you (Mt. 5:[44]). The apostle Paul teaches:
“Beloved, never avenge yourselves.” Likewise, “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink” (Rom. 12:[19-20]).
The apostle Peter writes to the brethren: “Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing” (1 Pet. 3:[9]).

All of this and much more abolishes wars and soldiers in Christianity. Thus there remains a great difference between John and Christ. John baptized only with water unto penitence and repentance; but Christ, with the Holy Spirit and with fire. If we were to follow John the Baptist we would still have to observe the Jewish Passover and many other things, for he did not institute the Lord’s Supper; only Christ did. But God wanted them with their soldiers to follow John the Baptist and be content with their wages. How much pillage would then have been avoided! And if they did no violence or injustice to anyone, they would soon discontinue warfare, for wars and the deeds of warfare are nothing but violence and injustice.

Continued:

S
sermonindex

HI Chris,

Your Scripture quote from Luke 21:20-22 is totaly out of context, unless perhaps you are a preterist? Given that your main Scripture has no context, you have turned it into a pretext, unless of course you are a preterist and if you were, I would still disagree with you, apologies to deepthinker of course :)...........brother Frank

C
ChrisJD

Hey Frank,

Your Scripture quote from Luke 21:20-22 is totaly out of context, unless perhaps you are a preterist? Given that your main Scripture has no context, you have turned it into a pretext, unless of course you are a preterist


Frank, I don't think it is nescesary to be a Preterist or Partial Preterist to understand the passage in Luke 21:20-22 as having been fulfilled in Ad 67-70. I think the verses following it make it distinct to have seen it already being fulfilled, particularly that they would be carried away into all nations.

The Lord Jesus said there would be wrath upon that people and Paul said that the wrath had come upon them to the uttermost.

This, and the Lord Jesus told the parable in Mat 22:1-7 which appears to have in view the same thing. A similar parable is told in Matthew 21:33-40 and the Pharasiees give a reply that is very similar also. And the scripture says they percieved that it was about them(Mat 21:45).

Wish you well,

Chris

C
ChrisJD

“My kingdom is not of this world,” said Christ to Pilate, “otherwise my servants would stand and fight and contend for me” (Jn. 18:[36]). Thus, our King, Jesus Christ, is a spiritual king and has a spiritual realm.
Therefore his sword must not be physical but spiritual. A spiritual kingdom cannot employ a physical sword. For worldly rulers wield a physical sword, since their realm is also physical. Therefore all who would defend themselves with force and the sword are certainly not of
the realm of Christ. For his servants do not position themselves thus, as he himself says here. And because his reign is not of this world, but the government is worldly, the two can neither merge nor be alike. And those who quarrel, battle and fight for the kingdom of this world
indicate clearly that they are not Christians, for the kingdom of this

30. Jn. 17:18; 20:21.
31. Lk. 16:25.

world is the devil’s realm; he is a prince of this world, as Christ says (Jn.
12:[31])."

I would like to treat with some of this that has been raised if I may.

Firstly, a clause of this passage has not been included with the quotation: in the passage the Lord goes on to say the reason they would fight if His kingdom was then of this world, that is, if it were to enter and be carried through by means and power of this world: the reason given is that He should not be delivered to the Jews. His Kingdom was not of this world, it was to come through death, and resurrection, by an altogether unknown and Heavenly power(1Co 2:7-9) and not by overwhelming force of an earthly nature, or even the power of angels from on High(Mat 26:53-54). How else would the [b]scriptures be fulfilled[/b]?


Secondly, the rest of the passage adds this in addition, saying [b]but now[/b] His kingdom was not from there, that is, the earth. And this was so at the time; the Lord’s rule had no origin from earth, it did not enter from the earth and it was not sustained or carried through in its entrance into the earth by any earthly power.
But [b]afterwards[/b], after He had accomplished the entrance of His Kingdom into the earth, for the Kingdom of Heaven was then near when He began preaching and was brought through into the earth by His work(Luke 17:20-21, 22:15-18, 24:28-30, 33-35) and continued through, by and with the Holy Spirit(Acts 1:1-5, 2:30-33, Romans 14:17) after He had risen from the dead He told the disciples that

[b]all[/b] authority or power in Heaven [b]and[/b] [u]on earth[/u] had been given to Him.

While it is of no dispute that Christ is The Spiritual King that rules over the spiritual realm, yet has His Kingdom come into the earth also, where His subjects are now, as the scripture says of God[i]I will dwell in them, and walk in them[/i]. And of Christ, that He must reign, until He has put all enemies under His feet. The Lord’s Throne is in Heaven, and the Earth is His footstool. And Jerusalem is the city of the Great King.

And so now is Christ already called the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords and the scripture says to all lesser kings [i]serve the Lord with fear, and kiss the Son, lest He be angry[/i].


He is before all things, and all things were created by
Him, and for Him, whether they are thrones, dominions, principalities, or powers. And by Him all things consist. And by Him has God reconciled all things, whether they are in Heaven. [b]Or in earth.[/b]

While it is true that Christs’ Kingdom is spiritual(Eph 1:17-23), it is also true of Satan’s(Eph 6:12). Both exist simultaneously in this present [b]physical world[/b](Col 1:13). And both exercise power in the earth(Ps 47:8, Rev 17:18). While Satan may at times gain more influence over an earthly power, and that power become more thoroughly corrupted and under evil, yet Paul says that there is [b]no power[/b] but of God. And that whoever resists the power, resists the ordinance of God.

Inasmuch as he says to resist is to resist God’s ordinance, it means to resist is to resist Christ’s rule also.

Because Christ has [b]now[/b] all power, in Heaven. And on Earth.

Of course there are times when it may be appropriate to resist earthly powers, if their ordinances become contrary to God’s or as when their rule has become especially demonic, certain forms of resistance can be appropriate. However bearing the sword, according to Paul, is not one of them(an ordinance to be resisted), but is something that they do, as he calls them, being ministers of God.

C
ChrisJD

A spiritual kingdom cannot employ a physical sword.

This is not true(Mat 22:7).

S
sermonindex

HI Chris, you say that the verses that follow Luke 21:20 make it distinct to have seen it already fulfilled. Here are such verses.......

Luk 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars. And on the earth will be anxiety of nations with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 men fainting from fear, and expecting those things which have come on the earth. For the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then they shall see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to happen, then look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near.
Luk 21:32 Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass away until all these things are fulfilled.
Luk 21:33 The heaven and the earth shall pass away, but My Words shall not pass away.

You have no context whatsover Chris. Were all things fulfilled? Were there heavanly signs recorded? Did they see the Son of Man come in all His glory? Did that particualr generation pass away and see all of those things Chris? At least the preterist tries to grapple with these Scriptures, you did not, you merely islolated a passage to prove your point. I would say again, you created a pretext. I love you brother, but you must have context when engaging the Scriptures. Quite simply, the Apostles were not involved in human warfare, they did not fight for Israel and they did not join the Roman armies. What Christian would join themselves by oath to the God of war, Mars, which every Roman soldier had to do? Dont you know that for this very reason, tens of thousands of Christians were slaughtered because they would not swear, with oil, once a year in the public square, that Caesur was a God? Anyways, that is old ground, I think I even shared the Roman oath somewhere in this thread, but the thread is too big to find it :) Peace brother :).....Frank

C
ChrisJD

HI Chris, you say that the verses that follow Luke 21:20 make it distinct to have seen it already fulfilled. Here are such verses.......

Frank, this is what I actually said:

"I think the verses following it make it distinct to have seen it already being fulfilled, [b][u]particularly[/u] that they would be carried away into all nations[/b].


Why did you ommitt that verse from your list Frank?

I think these and the other verse I mentioned demonstrate that the Lord Jesus [b]warned[/b] the disiples that God was going to destroy the nation and that they should [b]flee[/b] when they see that coming.


Paul clearly says that the wrath of God had come upon the Jews to the uttermost Frank. Do you think, even if it were permissable for the Apostles who were otherwise completely devoted to the ministry and unfit to be partaking in anything else, war or otherwise, do you think they would have been found fighting against God?

What is the point of arguing about this Frank?

C
ChrisJD

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."

- Luke 21:20(KJV)


I think this would have been a good reason not to fight for Jerusalem, for the Apostles or for anyone else.

C
ChrisJD

I appologise for another response in this current exchange but I wanted to say something to Frank and hopefully help to clear any misunderstanding in general.


"What is the point of arguing about this..."

First I appologise for the tone of my last response to you Frank. I think I could have written much better than that. I'm sorry about that.

The point that I've been trying to get at is that I don't believe that the early disciples and Apostles and the siege of Jerusalem can be used as a litmus test for the things that the Justice had put forward about defending one's nation.


I think that particular history is a non-sequitur as far as the argument goes. The reason for that, which I was trying to draw out, is the warnings that were given by Christ and the Apostles regarding the coming destruction of Jerusalem and the wrath of God(whether it was still future or for then or even soemthing of both). And that becuase of those things, the early disciples would not have even thought of defending Jerusalem, whether participating in such a thing in general was permissable or not.


I hope that makes more sense of what I was trying to say.


Thanks!

S
sermonindex

I would like to add.

Chrisjd has been doing an excellent job of trying to balance out the two extremes on this issue. I have remained silent for awhile other than my postings from more learned sources.

I will restate what I have stated before.

The truly "Christian" understanding of this is this:

Christians should be able to choose to either serve in Gov military, police etc., or choose to refrain. Neither side should judge the other as being against the commands of Christ.
Both sides should pray and respect and support the other. If this were so then it wouldn;t be "sides" but rather "the body" in action.

This as well as what I have previously put in this thread are my stances. Christians who are in the "Government" and have to carry out difficult life/death decisions need our prayers and support, not our condemnations.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi thingsabove...

Christians should be able to choose to either serve in Gov military, police etc., or choose to refrain. Neither side should judge the other as being against the commands of Christ.
Both sides should pray and respect and support the other. If this were so then it wouldn;t be "sides" but rather "the body" in action.

I agree with this sentiment.

My wife read through this thread recently, and she said that it reminded her of the story of The Little Red Hen. The story goes that a little red hen was going about all of the work to bake some bread. She continuously asked if anyone wanted to help with the various processes for baking bread. "[i]Who will help me plant the seeds[/i]," asked the little red hen. "[i]Not I[/i]," said the little dog, cat and duck. After the seeds had grown, the hen asked, "[i]Who will help me gather the wheat[/i]?" "[i]Not I[/i]," said the little dog, cat and duck. After the wheat was gathered, the little red hen asked, "[i]Who will help me take the wheat to the mill to be ground into flour[/i]?" "Not I," said the little dog, cat and little duck. I think that you get the picture. This went on throughout the process UNTIL the bread was baked and ready for eating. At this point, the dog, cat and little duck wanted to help eat the bread. They wanted the benefits...with none of the work that it took to make it. My wife thought that it was ironic that people would speak against military service or government involvement in a forum that exists because such interaction was established by God through military and governmental means.

Now, I explained to my wife that such believers certainly have a right to a clear conscience in regard to the extent to which we can or cannot be involved in government here on Earth (or in the defense of a family). I told her that we should never look down upon those who have a view that differs from our own if they base that opinion on Scripture and a clear conscience before God. I certainly understand the convictions of those who hold to the various peculiar views of "non-resistance." Yet I agree with you, thingsabove, that we should not look down upon those who have a somewhat (or often, a [i]slightly[/i]) different opinion about how this is put into practice. Thank you (and ChrisJD) for articulating this so well.

:-)

S
sermonindex

Amen.

C
ChrisJD

"Both sides should pray and respect and support the other."

If I could, I thought of a story that some other members have posted on the forums recently that we might all want to support.

It is the story of the believer from the US that has entered North Korea to bring awareness to the situation there and to ask the leaders to open their borders and release the prisioners being held there among other things.


Did you all see this story?


[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=31969&forum=48&3]Activist: US missionary crosses border into NKorea[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=32013&forum=44&0]Robert Park's Letter to To Mr. Kim Jong Il and North Korea's Leaders[/url]

From what I can tell, this looks like a nobel and beautiful form of resistance that all of us can appreciate and support.

And if I could suggest, doesn't this and the situation as a whole underscore how God may use both the Church on earth, and the governements of this world to restrain evil in this world and to hold back Satan?

Why, who but a believer would offer himself like this and could offer such a nobel form of resistance to evil?

And too, if it were not for the presence of western powers in the world, what would have restrained this dictatorship as much as it has been so far?

Can we see the hand of God in both?

Well, as for our friend that is risking his life, who has appearantly said like Paul, I must appear before ceasar, I'm sure we can all agree that we should pray and pray earnestly for him.

May God get the victory and His name and His ways be praised.

L
Leo_Grace

Why, who but a believer would offer himself like this and could offer such a nobel form of resistance to evil?

An incomprehensible act of courage that could only have come after much prayer by the leading of the Holy Spirit. Truly Robert Park is a believer who acts out his faith in his life.

[i]Mt 5:14-16 [color=CC3300]“You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven."[/color]

Isa 58:6 “Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke?[/i]

It is the lives of men like these who stand by faith, like David stood before Goliath, that bring glory to God. We should all pray for him.

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Chris , you write....

"First I appologise for the tone of my last response to you Frank. I think I could have written much better than that. I'm sorry about that."

I appreciate your humility brother. It is possible that two people can agree to disagree. Love will always shine through between brothers, and I always sense this with you ChrisJD.............God bless you brother

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ChrisJD

Frank, thank you so much for what you wrote. I deeply appreciate it and it means alot brother.


God bless you too and all.

C
chapel

“Concerning the Sword”: A Hutterian Apologia of 1577
[Article IV of the Great Article Book]

EDITED BY LEONARD GROSS*
TRANSLATED BY ELIZABETH HORSCH BENDER, ET AL.

This translation first appeared in the January 2009 issue of the
Mennonite Quarterly Review.

79.
(9) In their blindness they say: After all, Christ said to his disciples:
“Let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has nothing sell his mantle and buy a sword” (Lk. 22:[36]).

71. Heb. 10:20.
72. Ex. 20:13, 21.

[Answer:] Yes, my friend, but not an outward one, not a bloody sword meant for striking. Otherwise Paul would not have spoken truly when he said:
“We are not carrying on a worldly war, for the weapons of our warfare are not worldly”73 (2 Cor. 10:[3-4]). Christ also says, if your hand or your foot cause you to sin, cut them off (Mt. 5:[30]). But he does not mean that they should be cut off with the sword. Likewise the words “buy a sword” are not to be taken literally but understood spiritually. For if he had referred to the outward bloody sword, it would not have been necessary for Christ to command it, for there is a natural inclination in man to use it. Jews, heathen and Turks have swords; God has no pleasure in them.

Therefore Christ neither meant nor wanted that. Christ is here depicting for them the difficulties to come and the conflict against sin and ungodliness in the world into which he is about to send them, so that they would prepare themselves with the sword of the Spirit, with the Christian sword, which is the Word of God (Eph. 6:[17]). That is why Christ adds: “For I tell you that this scripture must be fulfilled in me, ‘And he was reckoned with transgressors’” (Lk. 22:[37]), as if he were telling them: This will also be your lot; therefore equip yourselves with the armor of the Spirit. And it is clearly shown that he really did not mean the bloody sword by his response to the disciples, “It is enough,” 74 when they said, “Lord, here are two swords.” That is to say, from now
on it is not a matter of fighting with the sword, but of suffering for the sake of the Gospel and bearing the cross.

Therefore it is now necessary to grasp the spiritual sword, the Word of God. If Christ had been speaking of buying the outward sword he would not have said that two were enough, for there were twelve of them, and more besides, and their number was increasing daily, and two swords would not have been enough. For each to have had one would have necessitated everyone selling his mantle.

And if Christ hereby meant that they should carry and use a sword, they did not carry out his wishes very well. For one finds nowhere that they used the sword to defend themselves or the Gospel against their enemies, and when Peter used it, the Lord rebuked him, saying that he was not to fight with the sword but should sheath it (Mt. 26:[52]).
Otherwise Christ would have contradicted himself, for he always said, “If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also” (Mt. 5:[39]), and “Do not resist one who is evil.”

73. Eph. 6:12.
74. Lk. 22:38.

The apostles must then also have been against Christ when they forbade taking revenge,75 or repaying evil for evil, or reviling for reviling,76 not to mention blow for
blow. The prophets would also have had to be against Christ when they prophesied how in the last times the peoples of the church of Christ would melt their swords into hoes and their lances into pruning hooks, scythes and saws, and would not use weapons against one another (Isa. 2:[4]; Mic. 4:[3]).

All of this and much more would be wrong and in vain if Christ had ordered them to buy outward swords. That is not the case and he is referring to no other sword than the one he himself had, namely, the two-edged sword that proceeds from his mouth (Rev. 1:[16]; 19:[15]; Heb. 4:[12]). With this sword he now wants his disciples to arm themselves because he is about to be taken from them through suffering. For it would indeed be needed by every one of them.

Therefore we should be satisfied with two swords—the sword of government, which is and must be in the world, and the sword of the Spirit and Word of God, which is the only one in the church of Christ.
For when there is enough and more is added, that is too much and therefore comes from evil (Mt. 5:[37]). Or the two swords can be understood to mean the Word of God—the divine teaching—as it is contained in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, which can also be interpreted as two swords. Since they come from one Spirit, we are to be armed with both of them.

80
(10) Then, if they raise the objection: the government is ordained by God77 to explore zealously what is right and good according to God’s word, and by means of their office as rulers to eradicate false worship and compel and hold their subjects and churches to true worship.

Answer: There is not a single word from the apostles or Christ saying that Christians and God’s children are to be held and driven to church services with the sword. For they have not received a slavish spirit,78

75. Rom. 12:19.but the Holy Spirit testifies through David about Christ’s people, saying, “Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your might” (Ps. 110:[3]).

75. Rom. 12:19.
76. 1 Pet. 3:9.
77. Rom. 13:1.
78. Rom. 8:15.

Therefore those who use the sword to assist their churches forsake God and are not servants of Christ; they rob God of what is his and give it over to human might. Yes, those who dare to force and compel people into their churches, forcing them with the citizen’s sword, compulsion, oppression, prison, tower confinement, fire and water, are swine herders who need to have clubs and are not shepherds of Christ’s sheep who know their Shepherd’s voice and follow of their own accord (Jn. 10:[16]).
Yes, they are a slavish church, bound to the letter, and not of the Spirit of God and Christ (Rom. 7:[6]).

For “cursed are they who trust in man and make flesh their arm,” says the Prophet, “whose heart turns away from God and who put their trust in princes and in the children of men, in whom there is no help” (Jer. 17:[5]; Ps. 146:[3]; 117:[8]). Let them hear what God says about this through the Prophet: “Woe to those who dare to rule my people with
violence and force (Ezek. 34:[4]). Therefore let those who snatch the ark of the Lord with violence and want to have it for themselves see to it that they do not fare like the Philistines who had to return it in disgrace (1 Sam. 4).

81
(11) They say: In the parable of the feast Christ told them to “compel people to come in” (Lk. 14:[23]).79 Answer: But this in no way means with the sword, force, war and captivity, but by the Word of God they must be compelled in heart and conscience to enter his church and be called forth from the highways and the hedges of their wrong path of life, teaching and hope behind which they are hiding—as the Samaritan woman was also compelled to believe when Christ told her what she had done (Jn. 4:[29]). Likewise Apollos constantly confuted the Jews, showing by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ (Acts 18:[28]).

Christ desires no other compulsion. It is the devil who compels and forces people into his realm with executioners and police, prison, suffering and torture, with sword and club. But Christ wants a voluntary heart (2 Cor. 6:[1-12]; 80 Phil. 1:[28]), for when the disciples of John came to him, he did not command them to seize people and force them to believe but to bring them to faith through preaching and miracles (Mt. 11).81 He did not demand that they seize the rich young man, who watched sadly and then went away (Mt. 19:22), and compel him to become a disciple.

79. This passage from Luke was unfortunately cited, again and again, in order to justify coercive conversion into the established church (especially through the Inquisition). This interpretation dates back to Augustine.
80. Text reads: 2 Cor. 8.
81. Text reads: Jn. 11.


Also, when Jesus came into his home country and the people refused to believe him, he did not compel them to believe, nor did he perform many signs because of their unbelief (Mt. 13:[54-58]). When many of his disciples left him he did not force them to stay but said to the others, “Will you also go away?” (Jn. 6:[66]). He did not want to hold them through force, for if they had stayed reluctantly it would have amounted to the same as if they had gone away. Likewise, when his disciples said, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended by you?” he answered, “Let them alone, they are blind leaders of the blind” (Mt. 15:[12, 14]).

Christ says, “No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” (not the sword) (Jn. 6:[44]). For the sword can neither give nor take away faith; it is a gift of God (Eph. 2:[8]). It is God who is at work in you, both to will and to do (Phil. 2:[13]). Those whom the Spirit of God impels are his children (Rom. 8:[14]); not those who are impelled by prison, tower confinement, suffering and torture. Therefore the Prophet says: O Lord, you know that I am leading the flock in your ways; I have not forced them, for I have never desired the death of any man (Jer. 17:[16]).82


82
(12) Now they say: Paul always writes clearly that rulers are ordained by God and are the servants of God (Rom. 13:[1]). Why then can they not be Christians in that office?

Answer: If having the name of ruler made one a Christian, then the Roman tyrants, the emperors Claudius and Nero, must also have been Christians, because Paul calls them, scepters and all, servants of God.83 For it is certain that Paul wrote this from Corinth to the brethren in Rome, where these heathen tyrants reigned, and Paul is speaking of powers that exist everywhere and calls them God’s servants.

Thus the Turk is also such a servant of God and would have to be a Christian if the name made the Christian. But that is not at all the meaning. For the Lord calls Nebuchadnezzar his servant (Jer. 43:[10]), and he calls King Cyrus and the king of Assyria a rod of his anger (Isa. 10:[5]). Likewise Christ in his prophecy against the Jews calls the Roman emperors Titus and Vespasian, with their hosts, God’s army, his instrument, his servants, even though they were mere heathen (Mt. 22:[21]).

82. Taken from the Froschauer Bible. RSV reads: “I have not pressed thee to send evil, nor have I desired the day of disaster, thou knowest.” See also Ezek. 18:23, 32; 33:11.
83. Rom. 13:6.

Therefore, just as there are two kinds of angels, good and bad, as one finds in the Scriptures,84 which calls both kinds angels, so God also has two kinds of servants on earth. For in the great house of this world there are not only gold and silver vessels [but also wood and clay], some for honorable and some for ignoble use (2 Tim. 2:20), namely, the vessels of wrath, that is, servants of vengeance who punish with death and the sword, who are prepared for damnation; and vessels of mercy (that is, servants who discipline with the ban for correction in order to acquire grace again) (Rom. 9:[21-23]): those he has prepared for glory, whom he has called, namely us, out of all nations (1 Thess. 5:[9]).

83
(13) Then they say: Since the wicked man who sits in the place of authority is God’s servant, then the believer who trusts in God can govern better than the godless heathen; for we have an explicit word, they say, that a Christian can be a ruler: Even in the time of Paul, Christians were in places of authority, for he wrote to his own people and their masters how they should relate to one another (Col. 3:[22]; 1 Pet. 2:[13-14]). Similarly he wrote to Timothy that believers who had masters should not despise them, for they were brethren (1 Tim. 6:[1-2]).
And since the apostles permitted (they say) a man to be a master—indeed, even to have slaves, which is harsh and unfitting, whether there are one, two or many—and yet remain a Christian, Christians can be rulers among us today.

Answer: Paul’s writing about slaves can only mean that they were house servants—slaves bought with money (Ex. 21). Peter and Paul do not call them anything else. They admonish them not to resist serfdom,85 but to obey their owners. For it would not be proper, since they were purchased, not to perform that for which they were purchased. From all this it can be concluded, from both the Old and the New Testaments, that the apostles were speaking only of purchased slaves, admonishing them to do their work. It does not say that they were speaking of government, as the false ones claim.

84. Ps. 78:49.
85. German: “der lieb aigenschafft”; this is most likely a transcribing error, for “der leib
aigenschafft.”


Continued:

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ChrisJD

Therefore, just as there are two kinds of angels, good and bad, as one finds in the Scriptures,84 which calls both kinds angels, so God also has two kinds of servants on earth. For in the great house of this world there are not only gold and silver vessels [but also wood and clay], some for honorable and some for ignoble use (2 Tim. 2:20), namely, the vessels of wrath, that is, servants of vengeance who punish with death and the sword, who are prepared for damnation; and vessels of mercy (that is, servants who discipline with the ban for correction in order to acquire grace again) (Rom. 9:[21-23]): those he has prepared for glory, whom he has called, namely us, out of all nations (1 Thess. 5:[9]).


It would appear that the author suggests also that God would have them to be in either state perpetually also and that, even if a ruler should desire to do good, and to serve Christ, he could not, unless he abandon his office or position or throne.

But is that the same call in the scriptures?

Did God ever speak that way to anyone who had authority?

I don't know the entire Bible by memory or even close and I cannot say yes or no for sure, but in the Psalms it is written:


"Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [i]from[/i] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [i]are[/i] all they that put their trust in him."


And so then the king may trust in Christ, but must then renounce his throne in order for a wicked and unbelieving man to take his place?

[i]...those he has prepared for glory, whom he has called, namely us, out of all nations[/i]


And so it says in Isaiah,


"And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising."

But then if these kings come to that light, then they must immediately relinquish their seat, and they must never sit in that light upon their thrones, but must relinquish it so that someone sitting in darkness may sit there instead?


I don't know that God has commanded that. It does some like something the devil would take joy in though.

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ChrisJD

namely, the vessels of wrath, that is, servants of vengeance who punish with death and the sword, who are prepared for damnation


And so it would appear that the author says that God simultaneously commends and condemns the rules of this world.

That he commends them, by calling them His servants and revenger(carrying our justice), and that He also condemns them for the same, who the author says are "prepared for damnation", that is if I understood that correctly.


And so then he says that God will punish the rulers, not for subverting justice, or for being greedy of gain or for suppresing others as God has always rebuked both the heathen and His own people, and as John gave witness of that soldiers should repent of, but not that God would punish them for doing those things, but, for administering justice and being agents of God's wrath.

And so does the author suggests that God has forordained certain men to be rulers, and also ordained their destruction for it?

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ChrisJD

(10) Then, if they raise the objection: the government is ordained by God77 to explore zealously what is right and good according to God’s word, and by means of their office as rulers to eradicate false worship and compel and hold their subjects and churches to true worship.

Answer: There is not a single word from the apostles or Christ saying that Christians and God’s children are to be held and driven to church services with the sword. For they have not received a slavish spirit,78

75. Rom. 12:19.but the Holy Spirit testifies through David about Christ’s people, saying, “Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your might” (Ps. 110:[3]).

75. Rom. 12:19.
76. 1 Pet. 3:9.
77. Rom. 13:1.
78. Rom. 8:15.

Therefore those who use the sword to assist their churches forsake God and are not servants of Christ; they rob God of what is his and give it over to human might. Yes, those who dare to force and compel people into their churches, forcing them with the citizen’s sword, compulsion, oppression, prison, tower confinement, fire and water, are swine herders who need to have clubs and are not shepherds of Christ’s sheep who know their Shepherd’s voice and follow of their own accord (Jn. 10:[16]).


I think this is an excellent statement.

In no way is the State ever to be seen as an extension of the Church's authority on earth. While the state should serve and protect it's citizens, in no way should it be regarded as an extension or an enforcer of [b]ecclesiastical laws[/b].

Edit:

"Then, if they raise the objection: the government is ordained by God77 to explore zealously what is right and good according to God’s word, and by means of their office as rulers to eradicate false worship and compel and hold their subjects and churches to true worship."

In my opinion, the laws of the state will more safely contain those laws of morality that are common to mankind(Rom 2:14-15), and not regarding the worship of God in Christ(Mat 11:27)

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Some intersting quotes from down through the ages for your consideration. I am sure none of these quotes will change anybody's mind, but they should at least be of interest.......Frank


1. Justin Martyr (c. 100-165)
“And that (the prophecy of Isaiah 2:1-4) did come to pass, we can convince you. For twelve men, illiterate and without speaking ability, went out from Jerusalem into the world, and by the power of God they proclaimed to every nation that they were sent by Christ to teach the word of God to everyone. And we, who formerly murdered one another, not only refuse to make war against our enemies, but in order not to lie nor deceive our judges, meet death willingly, confessing Christ.”
Apology I, 39

Martin of Tours (c. 315-397)
Around 356 A.D., at a ceremony in which soldiers were given a donative or monetary gift, Martin explained to his commanding officer why he could no longer serve as a Roman soldier. “Up to the present I have served you as a soldier. Allow me now to become a soldier of God. Let the man who is to serve you receive your donative. I am a soldier of Christ. It is not lawful for me to fight.”
Sulpicius Severus, Life of St. Martin, 4

Paulinus of Nola (355-431)
Paulinus was a friend of Martin of Tours and Victricius of Rouen, both of whom left the military in order to follow Jesus. In this letter to Crispinianus, a Roman soldier who had shown interest in becoming a Christian, Paulinus urged Crispinianus to similarly abandon the military and become a Christian. “Therefore, no longer love this world or its military service, for Scripture’s authority declares that ‘whoever is a friend of this world is an enemy of God.’ Whoever serves as a soldier with the sword is the servant of death, and whenever he sheds his own blood or that of another, this will be his reward: he will be regarded as guilty either because he caused his own death or because of his sin (of killing his enemy in war.)”
Letter 25, To Crispinianus

Menno Simons (1494-1561)
“The Scriptures teach that there are two opposing princes and two opposing kingdoms: the one is the Prince of peace; the other is the prince of strife. Each of these princes has his particular kingdom, and as the prince is, so also is the kingdom. The Prince of peace is Christ Jesus. His kingdom is the kingdom of peace, which is his church. His messengers are the messengers of peace. His word is the word of Peace. His body is the body of peace.”
Reply to False Accusations, III

Evelyn Underhill (1875-1941)
Five months after the Second World War commenced in Europe, Evelyn Underhill wrote to a friend: “I am sorry that we do not agree about Peace. Although I quite agree about the stern element in Our Lord’s teachings, the denunciations of Pharisees, etc., etc., still the numerous texts enjoining love of enemies , non-resistance, etc., do seem to qualify this strain in a sense that precludes war. And in fact the early Christians held that they were debarred from war, didn’t they? Of course Christendom has never had the nerve to apply this teaching without qualification, right up to the point of national martyrdom. When it does, perhaps the Kingdom of God will come.”
Letter of January 13, 1940, The Letters of Evelyn Underhill, pp. 284-285

Maximilian of Tebessa.(274 - 295)
Because his father Fabius Victor was a soldier in the Roman army, Maximilianus was obliged to join at the age of 21. Brought before the proconsul of Numidia Cassius Dion, he refused, stating that as a Christian he could not serve in the military. This led to his martyrdom by beheading on 12 March, A.D. 295, at the City of Thavaste (now Tébessa, Algeria), North Africa. He is noted as an early conscientious objector.

Dwight L. Moody (1837-1899)
When the Civil War began, Moody felt pressured by his friends to enlist in the armed forces on the side of the Union. “In spite of all this he could not conscientiously enlist: ‘There has never been a time in my life when I felt that I could take a gun and shoot down a fellow-being. In this respect I am a Quaker,’ was his explanation.”
William R. Moody, The Life of Dwight L. Moody, p. 82

Tertullian states that “the Lord, in disarming Peter, disarmed every soldier.”[5] Hippolytus believed that Christians could not enter military service: “The catechumen or faithful who wants to become a soldier is to be rejected, for he has despised God.”[6] Perhaps most definitively, Lactantius, a Christian who lived in the early fourth century, writes:

For when God forbids us to kill, He not only prohibits us from open violence, which is not even allowed by the public laws, but He warns us against the commission of those things which are esteemed lawful among men. Thus it will be neither lawful for a just man to engage in warfare, since his warfare is justice itself, nor to accuse any one of a capital charge, because it makes no difference whether you put a man to death by word, or rather by the sword, since it is the act of putting to death itself which is prohibited. Therefore, with regard to this precept of God, there ought to be no exception at all; but that it is always unlawful to put to death a man, whom God willed to be a sacred animal.[7]

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1. Justin Martyr (c. 100-165) “And that (the prophecy of Isaiah 2:1-4) did come to pass, we can convince you. For twelve men, illiterate and without speaking ability, went out from Jerusalem into the world, and by the power of God they proclaimed to every nation that they were sent by Christ to teach the word of God to everyone. And we, who formerly murdered one another, not only refuse to make war against our enemies, but in order not to lie nor deceive our judges, meet death willingly, confessing Christ.” Apology I, 39

Do you also believe that these words of Justin Martyr are true?

Justin Martyr


"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

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CCC123 ...I am not sure what your comments have to do with this particular thread. I do agree that a man has to be born again otherwise he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. And then he has to be baptized in water after laying down his life, but again, what has that to do with this thread? Hopefully you yourself have been born again and then were baptized according to the Word of God, our only infallible guide. Not traditions of men. Please PM me with any further comments as this is someone else's thread and this is another topic. As an ex-Catholic, I would be glad to show you how you may be born again according to Scripture.....Frank

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ChrisJD

[i]Here is a testimony of another man, available on Sermonidex. As Frank said, it may be interesting[/i] :)

[b]Stonewall Jackson[/b]

"And I sought for a MAN among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none. - Ezek. 22:30.

The future of a nation is directly dependent upon the choices of its men. It is here that the men of America, as a whole, have failed. Like the individual links of a chain, the immoral choices of our men have truly brought this nation into spiritual bondage. Many men are now squandering the zeal and the strength of their youth on the temporal pursuits of sports and money. Our churches are filled with men who will shout the praises of professional athletes and yet are cowards to praise the King of Kings. Hardened and passive, such men are void of Holy Ghost boldness. Yet God, in His mercy, is still determined to use MEN to stand in the gap.

In General "Stonewall Jackson", God found a true man who would stand in the gap. Both strong and tender, the motto of his life was, "Lord what wilt thou have me to do?" As fervent in the field of battle, so was Jackson on his knees in prayer. "He was a man of prayer, accustomed in all he did to ask the divine blessing and guidance. His aid said that he could always tell when a battle was near at hand by seeing the General get up a great many times in the night to pray." General Jackson did not simply pray, he fervently prayed. The following story gives us some insight in the passion of his prayers. It was told the Rev. William Brown, "the truth is sir, that 'old Jack' (Jackson) is crazy. Why, I frequently meet him out in the woods walking back and forth muttering to himself incoherent sentences and gesturing wildly, at such times he seems utterly oblivious of my presence and of everything else."

"A friend was once conversing with Jackson about the difficulty of obeying the scripture injunction, 'pray without ceasing,' and Jackson insisted that we could so accustom ourselves to it, that it could be easily obeyed. When we take our meals there is the grace. When I take a drink of water, I always pause, as my palate receives the refreshment, to lift up my heart to God in thanks and prayer for the water of life. Whenever I drop a letter into the box at the post office I send a petition along with it for God's blessings upon its mission and upon the person to whom it is sent. When I break the seal of a letter just received I stop to pray to God that He may prepare me for its contents and make it a message of good. When I go to my classroom and await the arrangement of the cadets in their places, that is my time to intercede with God for them. And so of every other familiar act of the day." Though a man of superior abilities, Jackson humbly recognized his need for JESUS in everything he did.

As a general in the Confederate Army, "Stonewall Jackson" had a profound influence over his men. It was his holy and prayerful example that contributed to the great revival among the Southern troops. By midsummer of 1863, revival had spread to all the Confederate armies. A chaplain of the 26th Alabama Regiment said that his unit alone averaged 100 converts a week for several weeks. During this same time another chaplain declared that, 'modern history presents no example of an army so nearly converted. A third of all soldiers in the field were men of prayer and members of some fellowship. J. W. Jones suggested that 150,000 conversions took place in Lee's Army alone. It was this revival that no doubt prepared the South for the humiliation that was to follow their eventual defeat, but best of all the revival prepared thousands of young and old alike to meet Christ in eternity. Truly, General Jackson impacted our history through the power of prayer.

What is our greatest need today in our morally fallen nation? We need a tenacious, tender, tearful and Holy Ghost bold army of true MEN! Oh God, make us MEN!

Taken from[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=2533]here[/url]

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Tell you what brother Chris, you can have brother Jackson and I will take the rest :) ............Frank

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KingJimmy

wrong thread, sorry....

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ChrisJD

Tell you what brother Chris, you can have brother Jackson and I will take the rest :) ............Frank

Brother, I'd rather have the God that answered his prayers(if we do beleive that it was God that answered them). :)

But I know what you mean :)

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ccchhhrrriiisss

Hello...

Tell you what brother Chris, you can have brother Jackson and I will take the rest :) ............Frank

Brother, I'd rather have the God that answered his prayers(if we do beleive that it was God that answered them). :)

But I know what you mean :)


Of course, if we are going to make lists, there are plenty of real believers who have served in the military, police or government over the course of time.

I find it interesting that we would want to include a short list of those who embrace a particular view of this matter but forget the rest -- who are just as precious in the sight of God. I know quite a few believers who serve or have served in the military. I suspect that many of them prayed too.

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ChrisJD

I suspect that many of them prayed too.


Chris, probably one of the most significant persons that we would think of here(on Sermonidex) in regards to prayer is Count Nicholas Ludwig von Zinzendorf. I found a short biography of him written by a Rev John Jackman at a website called zinzendorf.com.

Below is a short excerpt:


"Zinzendorf was born into one of the most noble families of Europe. His father died when he was an infant, and he was raised at Gros Hennersdorf, the castle of his influential Pitetistic grandmother. Stories abound of his deep faith during childhood. As a young man he struggled with his desire to study for the ministry and the expectation that he would fulfill his hereditary role as a Count. As a teenager at Halle Academy, he and several other young nobles formed a secret society, The Order of the Grain of Mustard Seed. The stated purpose of this order was that the members would use their position and influence to spread the Gospel. As an adult, Zinzendorf later reactivated this adolescent society, and many influential leades of Europe ended up joining the group. A few included the King of Denmark, the Archbishop of Canterbury, and the Archbishop of Paris."


I'm sure there are more things about him on Sermonindex.

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sermonindex

HI ChrisJD

"But I know what you mean :)"

Its always good to see where a brother is coming from, see the best in that brother, it shows a lack of contention and exposes the spirit behind the man. God bless you brother ............Frank

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ccchhhrrriiisss

Thanks, Chris...

I will be reading up on Zinzendorf (as I am only slightly familiar with him). I am encouraged that men in government or authority can maintain a relationship with Jesus Christ while in the office or capacity that they serve or exist. I am reminded that backslidden Israel (which had become a secular government) sometimes had kings who turned to the Lord with all of their hearts.

I know that I met several governors and congressmen while attending a couple of National Governor's Association conferences as an undergraduate student (while interning with NASA). I was even able to attend prayer meetings with several of these men. As quick as some believers would be to question the faith of such individuals, I discerned a great deal of sincerity. There were no cameras or members of the press at those prayer meetings. These men prayed when no one else would find out.

Like I said before, I have known many wonderful believers who served in the military. While some might suggest that such an occupation or service is incompatible with faith in Christ, these men did not feel this. Yet I have seen (and felt) fingers pointed from people who claim to avoid contention or "resistance."

This is one of the things that I am praying will be achieved from this thread. We should prayerfully walk before the Lord with a clear conscience. While I don't mind someone sharing their views, I think that we should refrain from proclaiming something as an "undeniable truth" when it is merely a persuasion. In the past, there have been brethren who have reacted with rhetorical violence against those who simply disagree with them (publicly and privately) -- even about an issue like this.

I hope that we can learn, as many have suggested, to "agree to disagree" while still holding one another in great love. "[i]And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins[/i]" (I Peter 4:8).

:-)

C
chapel

“Concerning the Sword”: A Hutterian Apologia of 1577
[Article IV of the Great Article Book]

EDITED BY LEONARD GROSS*
TRANSLATED BY ELIZABETH HORSCH BENDER, ET AL.

This translation first appeared in the January 2009 issue of the
Mennonite Quarterly Review.


84
(14) Then they assert that Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea were both councilors and rulers in Jerusalem, but nevertheless, secret disciples of Christ: devout, God-fearing men, of whom Scripture testifies (Mt. 27:[57]). Likewise, Erastus was a city treasurer, but nevertheless a Christian, they say (Rom. 16:[23]). When Philip brought the eunuch of the Queen of Ethiopia to faith and baptized him, he let him remain in power and office (Acts 8). Likewise Cornelius (Acts 10:[1]), Sergius Paulus the magistrate (Acts 13:[7]), and the centurion whose servant Christ healed (Mt. 8:[13]) were also believers and did not leave their office, they say. Matthew also remained in his position at customs after his conversion until he was chosen as an apostle.86

Answer: It is true, as they say, that these men came to faith, and this we grant. But when they say that they remained in government, those are their own empty words, and it is up to them to prove them with Scripture and to show that Christ commanded the sword in his church and that a person is a member of Christ even if he bears a sword.

For we do not read that Erastus remained a collector of revenue, but that he was Paul’s traveling companion, for in Acts 19 he sent him to serve in Macedonia (Acts 19:[22]). Likewise Manaen, a member of the court of Herod the Tetrarch, was in the church at Antioch, where they assembled a whole year.87 It does not say, “at Herod’s court or in the government.” To the Philippians Paul writes: “All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar’s household” (Phil. 4:[22]). He does not say that they were still at Caesar’s court or in his house. We read, to be sure, of others who are similar. Thus Paul, who had the great power and authority of the High Priests (Acts 9:[14]; 26:[10]), did not retain it when he was baptized and became a brother.

In summary, the apostles and Paul simply preached the Gospel to the eunuch of Ethiopia, to Cornelius, to Sergius Paulus and all the rest:
“Worldly princes rule the nations, but it shall not be so with you. The mighty are called ‘your lordship’ but it shall not be so among you” (Mt. 20:[25]; Lk. 22:[25]). Likewise, “Unless you change and become like children” (Mt. 18:[3]), without domineering, without exaltation, you will not enter into God’s kingdom. Likewise, “Judge not that you be not judged” (Mt. 7:[1]). Likewise, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me (note: the cross) (Mt. 16:[24]). Again, “Put your sword back in its place” for it is no longer right to fight with it (Mt. 26:[52]). Likewise, that the Lord became angry with the man who, because of a debt, took his fellow servant by the throat and threw him into prison (Mt. 18:[34]).88


86. Mt. 9:9; Lk. 5:27.
87. Acts 11:26; 13:1

The disciples of Christ were themselves to know and consider what manner of spirit they were of and not, like Elijah, want to call down fire from heaven or destroy anyone in revenge (Lk. 9:[54-55]). Likewise, that Christ escaped when the people wanted to make him their ruler and king (Jn. 6:[15]), that he refused to judge or divide the inheritance (Lk. 12:[14]), that he refused to condemn to death the woman taken in adultery, although the law demanded that she be put to death (Jn. 8:[11]); that Christ says his kingdom is not of this world and his servants do not stand armed with sword and spear (Jn. 18:[36]); and that those whom God called and foreknew he also charged to be conformed to the image of his Son (Rom. 8:[29]). Likewise, that they would be taken before kings and princes and rulers and before their councils for the sake of Christ’s name and be tortured (Mt. 10:[18]). He does not say that they, the Christians, will themselves be governors and councilors. And when the disciples said, “Here are two swords,” he answered, “It is enough” (Lk. 22:[38]).

Indeed, the apostles proclaimed the teaching that they should no longer be conformed to this world (Rom. 12:[2]), that they should be subject to the authorities (and are not to be rulers) (Rom. 13:[1]; 1 Pet. 2:[13]). “What have I to do with judging outsiders,” says Paul (1 Cor. 5:[12]). And: “Something is lacking among you that you sue one another at law. Why do you not rather suffer wrong?” (1 Cor. 6:[7]). And: “Though we live in the world, we do not fight as men fight, for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but spiritual” (2 Cor. 10:[3-4]), [but we are] to “fight the good fight, having faith and a good conscience” (1 Tim. 1:18). He also said “Put on the breastplate of righteousness. As shoes for your feet put on whatever will make you ready to proclaim the gospel of peace. In all circumstances take the shield of faith, . . . the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God” (Eph. 6:[14-17]). [And Peter:] “Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same intention (1 Pet. 4:[1]). Likewise [in Revelation], He who puts men into prison will himself be imprisoned, and he who kills with the sword will be slain by it (Rev. 13:[10]).

From all this and from many other Scriptures, as the Apostle says, “only, live your life in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ” (Phil. 1:[27]), they could well have learned that they could never be worldly princes, lords, magistrates, governors, judges or army captains, if they

88. Text reads: Mt. 10.

wanted to be followers of Christ. Neither Paul nor any other apostles of Christ bore a worldly office of judgment or a sword. He says to his entire brotherhood, “Follow me, taking me as your example.”89
They preached no other or different gospel to them than what they themselves had accepted and received from Christ.

85
(15) They may also say, Governors are rulers and together they compose the government (1 Cor. 12:[28]), along with: “if someone governs, let him do it with care” (Rom.
12:[8])—saying, that this is addressed to governing authorities. [Answer:] But that is not the case.
For then the Scriptures would give more evidence that at the time of the apostles there was such a worldly government in their church. But there is none, and all the Scriptures speak against it. For Christ did not entrust any outward rule to his church, but an inner rule which shall be governed by the Word of truth, and consequently, concerning the assignment of the people for outward tasks, and work and service to the poor, managers and stewards in the church of Christ were appointed to manage and care for temporal needs (Acts 6:[1-6]). But this is not government with the sword.

86
(16) The world says, and may well raise the objection: The Prophet also says the opposite, “Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning hooks into spears” and your “pruning knives, scythes and saws into lances” (Joel 3:[10]). Answer: The prophet said this about his own age; for it was in the Old Testament that they marched against their enemies with swords, spears and javelins, for they were commanded to hate their enemies and they were often sent by God’s command to wipe out their enemies. But now, in the New Testament, it is not so, but is forbidden by Christ. Therefore a distinction must be made between the figurative and the actual, the carnal and the spiritual, the law and grace or truth, between Moses and Christ, yes, between the Old and New Testament, Judaism and Christianity.

Otherwise we would be half Jews, half Christians and who knows what. We must interpret everything with judgment, thought and discernment90 blessed by God

89. Phil. 3:17.

and see the Scriptures with spiritual eyes and glasses. Then God’s Word will become clear and unified to us. For the great wars, victories, possessions and physical blessings in the law are now past and replaced in the Spirit. Therefore the prophet Joel, who was quoted, spoke of his contemporary Jewish era, after which, however, another time was to come, the era of which Isaiah, Micah and others speak, when weapon shall not be lifted against weapon and there will henceforth be no more war, but they will put away their weapons, break them in pieces and burn them (Isa. 2:[4]; Mic. 4:[3]; Ps. 46:[9]; 76:[4]; Ez. 39:[9]; Hos. 2:[18]). That is the kingdom of Christ, the time of Christians and our time, when it is no longer right for us to make or use such murderous weapons.


87
(17) Finally, there may be people so ungodly as to raise the objection that the Prophet says and it is written, “Cursed be he who does the work of the Lord with slackness; and cursed be he who keeps back his sword from bloodshed” (Jer. 48:[10]). Answer: If one wanted to understand and use the Scripture in such an absurd way, those men would be the best who constantly shed blood. Far be it from a Christian to have such ungodly thoughts. The Prophet is speaking here of the punishment of the sinful nation of the Moabites, whom God wanted to punish and devastate (Judg. 3:[28]).91 And in order to make the punishment so much more severe he encourages the avenger, whom he is sending, to carry it out without qualms. Therefore it is just the same as if the false prophets, or the world, who quote this passage were to say “Cursed be the Turk if he is indolent and negligent in punishing us and keeping back his sword from shedding our blood.” Therefore, O woe to the blindness of this world, which tries to cover one blindness with another.92

88
Since the Fathers at first also held that Christians may not go to war or serve as secular judges and that those in office were not regarded as Christians, let us look at some documents and testimonies that speak against their own practice.


90. “Wir müessen mit einem gotsälligen urtaill eintruckh und gespaltnen klauen alle dinge [verstehen] . . . ”: the original, “gespaltnen klauen” (cloven hoofs—see Lev. 11:3), is translated here, “discernment.” This image was used by other Anabaptists as well.—Van der Zijpp, “Gespauwde Klauw,” ME 2:508.
91. Text reads: Joel 3.
92. Here ends the series of seventeen polemical responses to some of the “world’s” questions, which began with point 71.


Papal law specifies93 that it is not fitting for them to kill anyone. Their code puts no one to death, but places excommunication on the wicked. The reason why these are not to be so punished is given in their decree, that those who are foreordained to salvation may better their lives. But the others will be damned, with all punishment deemed useless, referring to the example in Luke 9:[51-56]. Furthermore, those who take the sword shall be judged by the sword (IV. Quidam; cum quisque; obtineri; ipsa pietas, Augusti).

Thus, [causa] 23, questi 4, c. si ecclesia, also says that the true church persecutes no one but only suffers persecution, referring to the example of Sarah and Hagar, and others.

Chrysostom (who lived in 390) is strongly opposed to warfare and taking revenge because they have committed themselves to him who taught peace. Read his exposition of Matthew and John.

The Council of Elvira decided that magistrates should not be admitted into the church during the year that they serve. Indeed, many other decrees and many ancient teachers are opposed to the participation in war of those who are spiritual(which simply means the true Christians).
([In margin:] Note, Neither do they consider the worldly rulers to be Christians.)

In the Council of Toledo, held in Spain in the thirteenth year after the regulation, at the time of Honorius and Arcady, it was decided that whoever is a soldier after baptism shall never become a deacon even if he has not committed any specific deed in war.

In Canon 23, q.v., Circumcel.; pena illorum (punishment of those), it is more clearly stated by Augustine that heretics should not be punished by death. Chrysostom, discussing Matthew 13 on the tares, shares that view. The best ancient canons are also against this wantonness; they say that those who are spiritual should neither kill nor attack anyone for any reason at all (not to mention for the sake of one’s faith). They should not do so themselves, nor delegate others, nor assist by word or deed, but also censure it in others (c. 23., quest. vlt. Chap).

It continued to be held until the time of Pope Pelagius, A.D. 553, that heretics should not be condemned to death nor should worldly authority be called on for assistance. He was the first to order that when a man refused to be persuaded by reasonable arguments, he should be forced and compelled to do so. This was done, and increased constantly with the passage of time.


93. All references in this point, except for the citation from Luther, come from Sebastian Franck, Geschychtbibel, mostly from pp. 388r ff.


Luther, in his sermon on Matthew 13:[24-30], in the collection of sermons for home use, also speaks of the tares:94 The church or the office of preaching does not wield the sword, but whatever it does it does solely with the Word. Therefore, he says, the ancient teachers are right in this matter. If Matthew, when he was still a tax collector, and Paul, when he was persecuting the Christians, and the thief on the cross had been sentenced and executed as wicked men (which they were) immediately after the deed, then the wheat that grew from them afterward (since they were won over) would have been uprooted.

But this is not to say that the church is to put the wicked to death with the sword. It is to ban and exclude them as heathen, so that they recognize their sin and mend their ways, and that others may be warned by their example and be watchful. ([In margin:] Just listen, you Lutherans, how well you follow him!) Do you say, Why does one not deal thus with thieves, murderers and others, for some might be saved and repent?

Answer: Here you must understand that the Lord is speaking of the kingdom of Christ. That is where no sword is to be used, lest the wheat be torn out with the tares. ([In margin:] That is what Luther says; however, when we say it, we are called heretics.) But in the kingdom of the world God has given a different commandment, which is:
He who takes the sword shall perish by the sword.95 Christ does not say a word here about that worldly realm. Therefore, they dare not be mixed together, but what applies to Christ’s kingdom is supposed to be achieved there; then again, what applies to the realm of the world is supposed to be achieved there. This Luther himself says and writes.

89
Paul the Apostle writes to the believers, “Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to this indeed you are called in one body” (Col. 3:[15]) (note that we are called to peace, and the one body is the Christian church). It is unfitting for a body to have a sword and use it against itself.
It is a desperate act to commit suicide or injure oneself. It is gross foolishness if the body

94. Taken from the edition of Veit Dietrich, first published in 1544 (Weimar Edition)
52:134, 7 ff), discussed by Roland H. Bainton in “Religious Liberty and the Parables of the Tare, “Early and Medieval Christianity (Boston: Beacon Press, 1962), 112f.
95. Mt. 26:52.

deliberately tried to injure its own members with the power of the sword. Thus it is completely inappropriate for the church of Christ to use the sword within itself. For they are all one body and members of one another (Rom. 12:[5]; 1 Cor. 12:[12]; Eph. 1:[23]; 4:[4]; 5:[1-14]; Col. 1:[17]; 2:[19]).

Therefore, the man who is a servant of the worldly sword demonstrates clearly that he is not a member of the true Christian church. For no member holds a sword overanother. Would it not be absurd if both hands of one body each had a sword and stabbed and struck each other and became disunited from one another?
That is how it is if you say that Christians can be soldiers and use the sword. Therefore a ruler cannot be a Christian. It is not we who say this but Christ and his apostles, if one considers and studies their words.

Continued:

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Leo_Grace

Really - this thread has become nothing more than a venue for the spamming of Mennonite publications through copy/paste by someone who apparently is a devout Mennonite. I have nothing against the Mennonites and their beliefs, but I don't think such spamming is appropriate. This thread occasionally provokes reactions from those who don't hold to the idea of total non-resistance and who get tired of the endless Mennonite spamming, but I do believe it has already run its course and should be locked.

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ChrisJD

It is true, as they say, that these men came to faith, and this we grant. But when they say that they remained in government, those are their own empty words, and it is up to them to prove them with Scripture...


For we do not read that Erastus remained a collector of revenue, but that he was Paul’s traveling companion, for in Acts 19 he sent him to serve in Macedonia (Acts 19:[22])...

To the Philippians Paul writes: “All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar’s household” (Phil. 4:[22]). He does not say that they were still at Caesar’s court or in his house.

Whatever Erastus may have done after this, he is mentioned here in Romans 16:23 this way:


"Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother."

[i]Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you...[/i]


But isn't it an odd thing to send greetings from one who would otherwise be viewed(that is if the author's assertions are correct) as an infidel and an evil person for his contributions and participation in government? And that in a private letter to be read by other Christians?


those are their own empty words, and it is up to them to prove them with Scripture

I think it is rather up to the author to prove that the Apostles and other believers had the same view of these men that he(the author) did. Not, as the author says, in his own words, but in the words of the scriptures.



To the Philippians Paul writes: “All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar’s household” (Phil. 4:[22]). He does not say that they were still at Caesar’s court or in his house.


I think that Paul indicates in the letter that he was both a prisoner and perhaps in the palace when he wrote this letter(Php 1:13).

So when the letter concludes with a greeting from those that(in KJV) are of(present tense) Caesar's household, it would be the authors task to show that they were not somehow as they are described there, but were otherwise.

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sermonindex

HI ChrisJD,

Often we will hear quotes from the "founding fathers," of this country. Great weight is laid upon what they said, upon what they wrote. If you were to go to Bible school or seminary, you would find out that great weight is put upon the early church fathers. Now the reasons for this is fairly obvious. These men had direct connections to the Apsotles, therefore, opinion expressed by these men in their writings carry a lot of weight. As time goes on, the further away we get from the original, we begin to see a greater diversity of opinion. I would argue that it was an absolute disaster for the Church that Constantine "became a Christian." Now we begin to see a bending of Scripture in order to accomodate, amalgamate the Church with the State and the State's ambitions. So, I give you ........

1. Justin Martyr (c. 100-165)
“And that (the prophecy of Isaiah 2:1-4) did come to pass, we can convince you. For twelve men, illiterate and without speaking ability, went out from Jerusalem into the world, and by the power of God they proclaimed to every nation that they were sent by Christ to teach the word of God to everyone. And we, who formerly murdered one another, not only refuse to make war against our enemies, but in order not to lie nor deceive our judges, meet death willingly, confessing Christ.”
Apology I, 39


And you give me Stonewall Jackson :)

Can you see the dis-connect? Now, if you could give me an early church father that wrote that it was okay to kill in a "just war," then I would be suitably inpressed:) It is also worth noting that the majority of the Apostles were martyred in the year 70ad, and , suprisingly, were killed, like dogs, in the street. Not a single mention of them fighting for their lives, not a single mention. You can find a short video of the martyred saints here

http://scottishwarriors.wordpress.com/2009/10/22/the-spirit-of-the-martyr-are-you-ready/

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ginnyrose

Last week we had a customer in our store. I got to talking to him...interesting how these conversations develop, but never mind this - he was a total stranger to me.

Anyhow....

Mr. Moore is a Vietnam War veteran who served as a chaplain in the war zone, often rendering aid to the wounded. He told me how soldiers would come to him and say they just cannot kill a person...

I asked him about PTSD, and how common is it? He said that up to 80% of all those who engage in combat will experience it, more so if you were a young person. He said the human psyche is such that it will be adversely affected if one kills another human being, even in combat situations. He also said the probability is less if you are older. I asked him if he experienced it? He said, "Yes, ..." He was well into his 30s when he served. This comes from a man who has master degrees in psychology, theology and criminology.

I just thought I would share this about how life does once again prove the validity of the WORD.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

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ChrisJD

Hi Frank,

First if I could, the scope of the articles that are being presented go beyond involvement of war but includes involvement in civil goverment of any kind.

About the qoute from Justin Martyr,


In my view, it isn't clear from the qoute what exactly Justin Martyr beleived about capital punishment or wars in general. He made a statement that all Christians could agree with:

that we don't commit murder and we ourselves as Chrisitians do not use war against our enemies, that is the Christian Church does not raise a Christian army to fight a Christian war.


The distinction that the [b]Bible[/b] makes between killing in general and [b]murder[/b] has been presented several times so far.


Otherwise would John the baptist have told the soldiers to repent of [b]their murders[/b]. Which he did not.

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ChrisJD

Frank, also about this,


And you give me Stonewall Jackson :)


Actually, I didn't give you Stonewall Jackson as an example of a Christian father, but as an example of someone who is testified to on [b]this site[/b] as being both involved in war, and a man that feared God and prayed.

We're left then to decide whether God answered his prayers, and what implications that might have.



Can you see the dis-connect? Now, if you could give me an early church father that wrote that it was okay to kill in a "just war," then I would be suitably inpressed:)

But Frank, I think I can just as easily ask this of you?

The first century and its governments and rulers are gone.

We cannot only make decisions on issues like this, based upon what the first and second century Christians did [b]in their own generations[/b].


The Roman armies were not the armies of George Washington, or Stonewall Jackson.


Ultimatley our decisions need to be based upon the Bible and the aid and help of God, in the situations that are facing us now. Or in any generation(Acts 13:36).

No doubt the Moravians benefited from having someone with earthly authority, like Count Zinzendorf.

A different time and a different place, than Justyn Martyr, and ancient Rome.

S
sermonindex

Hi Chris, you stated.........


'Otherwise would John the baptist have told the soldiers to repent of their murders. Which he did not."

Hmm, do we have a list of all the sinners that John spoke to and what their specific sins were? I think what may be missing in all of your assertions about the few examples of soldiers being spoken to is that when a man or woman is saved he or she is then led into all truth by the Holy Spirit. Time and time again Chris I have pointed out that to be a Roman soldier, one would have had to make vows to the Roman God of war, Mars. And again I have pointed out that countless tens of thousands were martyred because of their refusal to acknowlede a mere man as a God. Could it be that it was perfectly okay for a Christian to acknowledge and make vows to a false God while at the very same time his brothers and sisters were being slaughtered for their refusal to do the very same thing? This does not even pass the smell test brother. Would the Holy Spirit lead and guide whole families, by the tens of thousands, to be slaughtered for a Truth that was relative? Interesting points to ponder :)........brother Frank

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ChrisJD

Hi Frank,


...do we have a list of all the sinners that John spoke to and what their specific sins were?


Frank, no, but that isn't the point I don't think?

What we do have is a group of soldiers, whether they were Roman or Jewish I do not know, that asked John [b]what they should do[/b] in response to his preaching [b]to repent[/b].


And so far as I can tell, his reponse to them was [i]to continue doing their jobs[/i], [b]only to do it honestly[/b]!


What doesn't pass the smell test to me Frank is that John was telling the soldiers to go on [b]being murders[/b](if that is what being solders made them), only do it [i]honestly[/i]. In other words: it was alright for them(EDIT for the time being you might say) to murder others, just don't take their money?

Frank, I think I can understand what you saying about further light coming, but when the Lord Jesus taught on the Sermon on the Mount, it seems to me that He also affirmed the legitimacy of the courts and judges(Mat 5:22,25). At least He did not call them murderers in general.


Edit: [i]...just don't take their money[/i]

It may be that Isaiah was speaking about extortion like this in Is 59:6? According to Strong's, the hebrew word transalted [i]violence[/i] in the KJV is:


H2555
חמס
châmâs
khaw-mawce'
From H2554; violence; by implication wrong; by metonymy unjust gain: - cruel (-ty), damage, false, injustice, X oppressor, unrighteous, violence (against, done), violent (dealing), wrong.


Injustice seems to be a main theme of the passage. It may be that corruption and incompetency at every level of society was the Judgement of God(Is 3:1-5).

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ChrisJD

Time and time again Chris I have pointed out that to be a Roman soldier, one would have had to make vows to the Roman God of war, Mars. And again I have pointed out that countless tens of thousands were martyred because of their refusal to acknowlede a mere man as a God.


Frank, yes, I understand. But then the issue there is not whether it is ever persmissable to be a soldier as a Christian, but if one could be so in an army that required idolatry as part of its service(this is the piont I was making about the Roman armies not being the same as George Washington's).

A similar issue is presented in the story of Naaman, captain of the Syrian armies, who after God healed him, wanted to go back to his place and worship God, instead of the idols(2Kings 5:1-19).

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ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Frank...

If you were to go to Bible school or seminary, you would find out that great weight is put upon the early church fathers. Now the reasons for this is fairly obvious. These men had direct connections to the Apsotles, therefore, opinion expressed by these men in their writings carry a lot of weight.

Interesting. OF course, there were plenty of heretics who had direct connection with the original apostles too. Some of these men (like Demas) fled because they loved the world. The time in which they lived gives no more credibility to their views than the views of those who did NOT have an ability to write. For instance, there are plenty of experts on the writings of Justin Martyr who ponder the extent that his philosophical writings actually had upon the Church. Many simply regard to him as a philosopher (his education) who converted to Christianity but was non-offensive enough to merit persecution or martyrdom.

Regardless, there was plenty of doctrinal issues in the first century (as apparent in Paul's epistles to the Corinthian church). I suppose that it is interesting to consider the views of some of those early church "fathers" (even though we might debate how much of a "father" they were during that time). Yet, it doesn't mean that their views were universally held by the Church. Nor does it mean that the totality of their views were Scriptural.

Ultimately, the Word of God is our ONLY source for Scriptural and doctrinal truth.

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sermonindex

Hey brother ChrisJD,

I think it must be obvious to us both and to all that, no matter what argument is laid out, or proofs brought to bear, there seems that we can have no agreement on this. The obvious reason for quoting from the early church fathers is that yes we have Scriptures, but we disagree on what the meaning, intent and interpretation of such Scriptures are. So we look to the early source. If these early sources are just readily dsimissed because there was not perfect doctrine in those days, then I am not sure what to say to you and to those who would handily dismiss the church fathers in favor of their own opinions. I think,a better stratedgy would be to quote other church fathers in favor of your own interpretation.

Anyway, what say you that we start this New Year out respecting each others opinions and agreeing that you are wrong? Okay, that was a typo, what I meant to type was agreeing to disagree? :) Its good to have a discussion with a genuine truth seeker and not one who merely wants to prove himself right or provoke contention. I love you brother and I pray that Gods blessings shine upon you in this New Year.............brother Frank

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chapel

“Concerning the Sword”: A Hutterian Apologia of 1577
[Article IV of the Great Article Book]

EDITED BY LEONARD GROSS*
TRANSLATED BY ELIZABETH HORSCH BENDER, ET AL.

This translation first appeared in the January 2009 issue of the
Mennonite Quarterly Review.


90
Peter the Apostle says, “To this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that we should follow in his steps. He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly” (1 Pet. 2:[21-23]).96 See, that is the road on which Christians must also walk. They must suffer here without reviling when reviled, or threatening when they suffer, but commit everything to God, the just Judge (1 Pet. 3:[9]; Ps. 7:[2 ff]). “For the Lord is an avenger in all these things” (1 Thess. 4:[6]).
How could they then use the power of the sword, if he is to be Judge and Avenger? Absolutely not!

91
When David had the ark of God brought out of the house of Abinadab into the house of Obededom, and the oxen stumbled and Uzzah put hishand on the ark of God and held it, “the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah, and God smote him there” because of his wicked deed, and he died there by the ark (2 Sam. 6:[1ff]). This shows and represents
figuratively that God neither wants nor needs men to defend, fight for, or preserve the Gospel with a human arm or the power of the sword, as though he were a god like an idol, unable to defend his Word and gospel himself.

96 Text reads: 1 Pet. 4.

92
“If a man is burdened with the blood of another, let him be a fugitive until death; let no one help him,” said Solomon (Prov. 28:[17]). Hence, a Christian cannot with good conscience help toward shedding blood, much less participate in it himself. God says through Isaiah, “Even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood,” “and your fingers with iniquity” (Isa. 1:[15] and 59:[3]).
Therefore a Christian cannot stain and spot himself with blood; for the soul is in the blood (Gen. 9:[4]), and blood is surely not water.

93
Christ says to his followers, “Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets” (Mt. 7:[12]97;Lk. 6:[31]; Sir. 31:[15]; Tob. 4:[16]). That is how it is to be in the true Christian church. But nobody who is Christian likes to have a sword used against him. Hence, no Christian should do so to another. Nobody wants to be tortured, bloodily attacked or killed; hence he should not do so to another. Nobody likes to be oppressed by reviling, quarreling, violence and injustice; therefore let him not do so to his neighbor.
Nobody likes to be hit, given blows or to be harmed in any other way, even if this is done by someone who has forgotten his Christian honor; since he does not like it, he should not do it to others. Otherwise each would be like all the others, guilty of the law and the Prophets, even of natural law. And this removes the sword, force and worldly authority from the Christian church.

On the contrary, among the worldly Christians who still do to others what they themselves do not like and who by no means love their neighbor as themselves, there the sword and force are necessarily decreed. But among those who love, it is not given. Those who do not steal have no need of a hangman among them—much less, that they themselves be executioners. In the same way, Christians who do to others what they themselves like to receive and who love one another as themselves have no need of a government with the sword in their midst or among them to compel them to do good or to prevent their doing evil.

But in the world government is more necessary and essential than a bridle for a horse if people are to be controlled. But wherever anyone in the church of Christ ignores this law, “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Mt. 22:[39]) or conversely, “what you do not want done to you, don’t do to your neighbor,” and if he demonstrates disloyalty and wrong or evil, and does not accept being admonished or disciplined through the discipline and punishment of the Spirit or even through the Word of the Lord, he is no Christian and it is Christ’s command to put him out of the church by means of the ban. Then he is part of the world under the sword and must submit to the law until he returns through repentance and a mending of life (Gal. 3).


97. Text reads: Mt. 6.

If the church of Christ were to have the sword, it would have no need of the ban or exclusion and Christ would not have said, “If he refuses to listen to the church, let him be to you as a heathen and a tax collector” (Mt. 18:[17]).

94
Christ is a king of peace, foreshadowed by Solomon and Melchizedek, who was king of Salem, that is, of peace (Heb. 7:[2]). Therefore also in the Christian church, indeed, in the house of Christ, peace is the mayor, the bailiff and steward, not the sword (Isa 60:[17]);98 there will be a great peace there (2 Esd. 13:[12]). True Christians are a peaceful people of which the prophets foretold (Ps. 72:[7]). For David also says, “May the Lord bless his people with peace” (Ps. 29:[11]).
“He who would love life, . . . let him seek peace and pursue it” (Ps. 34:[12, 14]; 1 Pet. 3:[11]; 2 Tim. 2:[22]). “Great peace will they have who love your law” (Ps.119:[165]).
“Peace be within your walls” (Ps.122:[7]). “Peace be upon Israel!” (Ps.125:[5]; Gal. 6:[16]). And Isaiah: “Thou, Creator, will bring about peace, for we trust in Thee” (Isa. 26:[3]). And “my people shall dwell in the tents of peace” (Isa. 32:[18]). 99 Also: “They shall live and move in peace; my servants will rejoice from their hearts,”100 and “I will let peace flow to her like rivers of water. ”101 “For the fear of God,” says Sirach, “is a crown of wisdom and makes peace flourish again” (Sir. 1:[11]). Yes, Christ commands his followers to say when they enter a house, “Peace be to this house. And if a son of peace is there, your peace shall rest upon him; but if not, it shall return to you (Mt. 10:[12-13]; Lk. 10:[5-6]).

Thus, Christians are children of peace. “Peace I leave with you,” says Christ, “my peace I give to you; not as the world gives give I to you” (Jn. 14:[27]). After his resurrection, when all the doors were closed Jesus came and stood among them and said to his disciples, “Peace be with you” (Jn. 20:[19]). That word is the first that Jesus spoke after his resurrection; then, showing them his hands and his side, he said again, “Peace be with you.”


98. Text reads: Isa. 66.
99. Text reads: Isa. 55 and 56.
100. Isa. 55:12; 65.
101. Isa. 66:12.

All the Lord’s apostles first of all and always wish true peace to the churches, which is the apostolic and Christian greeting (Rom. l:[7]; 1 Cor. 1:[3]; 2 Cor. 1:[2]; 1 Pet. 1:[2]; 2 Pet. 1:[2]; 2 Jn. 1:[3]; Jude 1:[2]; Rev. 1:[4]). “For God is not a God of confusion but of peace,” says Paul.102 In all the congregations of the saints, may “peace be with all of you” (Rom. 15:[33]). “Agree with one another, live in peace, and the God of love and peace will be with you103 (2 Cor. 13:[11]). And we should wear the shoes of peace (Eph. 6:[15]). Also: Strive for peace with all men (Heb. 12:[14]).
“For,” says James, “where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. . . . And the harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace” (Jas. 3:[16,18]).

In the church of Christ, then, where such peace exists, there is no sword or rulership, nor should there be. But in the world, where such peace does not exist, there the sword is and must be. Although God has offered his peace to all mankind, they have not all accepted it; therefore, lest worse happen to men, God in his grace has instituted authority on earth and rulers in the world so that (especially for the sake of the good) outward peace may be kept, which must by no means be taken to mean the true, inward peace of God, which cannot exist together with private possessions. For the world observes peace only for the sake of its possessions; if it is offended in that regard, peace is at once lost. They therefore do not have the peace that Christ has given to his people.

95
Among those in whose life Christ and his teaching truly reign, all carnal rulership is at an end. And among those over whom physical, carnal rulership reigns, Christ is at an end. He has to leave the country of the Gadarenes for he never ever will protect their self-interest, nor does he spare their hogs when those who were possessed are freed (Mt.8:[34]).

96
The supreme Lord, Christ himself, did not come to reign, conquer, pass judgment or rule, nor have anybody brought before him for judgment (Jn. 5:[45]), nor did he himself want to bring charges against anyone; on the contrary, he himself served, and let himself be ruled, attacked, sentenced and condemned to death, and accepted injustice; in brief, he suffered. That is our mirror into which we want to look, in which we want to see whether we have the form of Christ or not. Then the dissension over government would soon be eliminated.


102. 1 Cor. 14:33.
103. Phil. 4:9.

Continued:

C
chapel


“Concerning the Sword”: A Hutterian Apologia of 1577
[Article IV of the Great Article Book]

EDITED BY LEONARD GROSS*
TRANSLATED BY ELIZABETH HORSCH BENDER, ET AL.

This translation first appeared in the January 2009 issue of the
Mennonite Quarterly Review.

97
Christ said, “Whoever would save his life will lose it” (Mt. 16:[25]; 19). Therefore, whoever tries to protect and defend his earthly life and whatever else he has, will squander and forfeit life eternally in God’s sight; and whoever loses his life will keep it for eternal life. Only a slight defense is required: it is simply turning around and presenting oneself at the foot of the cross of Christ. That is the defense of Christians, in which they will overcome and receive victory (Rom. 8:[37]) for eternal life (not for earthly life). For earthly victory does not bring about permanent victory, for there is always a stronger power that will in turn conquer and rule over the Christian. This is therefore not the victory of Christ but the victory of reprehensible flesh that will perish with the flesh.


98
Paul says, “As servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: through great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities, beatings, imprisonments, riots, labors, sleepless nights, hunger; by purity, knowledge, patience, kindness, holiness of spirit, genuine love, truthful speech, and the power of God; with the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and for the left; in honor and dishonor, in ill repute and good repute. We are treated as impostors, and yet are true; as unknown, and yet are well known; as dying, and see—we are alive; as punished, and yet not killed; as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing everything” (2 Cor. 6:4-10).

This is the promise and expectation of God’s servants here on earth. Neither to the right nor to the left do they have anything but the weapons of righteousness, which are not swords, spears or other arms for taking life, but those weapons named at length above—especially great patience, which is a weapon for all conflict. Anyone who seeks Christ anywhere but at the foot of the cross in patience will not find him. He who teaches otherwise shows himself to be an Antichrist, liar and seducer.

99
In the first apostolic conference it was decided that they keep themselves from blood, as they then notify the church: “It has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled and from unchastity” (Acts 15:[28-29]). Here he stresses abstention from blood. For the Holy Spirit does not mean this in the sense of the prohibition of the law of Moses (but as the Psalmist also said: “Their drink offerings of blood I will not pour out”) (Ps. 16:[4]), rather, it was revealed only for this end time. As soon as worldly power mixed itself into the kingdom of Christ, the eating of blood—that is, shedding the blood of man—began among supposed Christians, which the Holy Spirit now correctly forbids us to do as the children of God, whereby we need to be vigilant. If we do so, we do what is right.

100
Paul says, “Even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you have received, let him be accursed” (Gal. 1:[8-9]). If the priests and teachers of war are by no means angels, and preach another gospel that brings with it the sword, guns, spears, armor, lances, clubs, executioners, bailiffs, fighting- masters, tower confinement, imprisonments, warfare, bloodshed, murder, beating and anger, which we have not received from the apostles, they are therefore accursed together with their teaching.

101
God did not give the tribe of Levi any part of the land in the promised land (Deut. 18:[2]; Num. 18:[20]; Ezek. 44:[48]), nor command or permit them to be earthly rulers. This figuratively represents our priesthood in Christ and was descriptive of us, as Paul writes to the Hebrews (Heb. 7:[5], 8, 9, 10). Christ himself says, “The Son of man has nowhere to lay his head” (Lk. 9:[58]), that is, he had no possessions or ruling position here on earth. If he did not have these things, much less should we, his disciples.

102
The world and false Christians boast of their love for their neighbor, saying: Should I not come to the rescue of my neighbor who is threatened with death and I can prevent it? This is the obligation of everyone, God has commanded it; for what I like to have done for me I should also do for others. Answer: This kind of physical aid is what Peter wanted to give the Lord (Mt. 26:[51]). But hear what Christ did: The Lord restored health to the one whom Peter struck and injured out of physical love for Christ—so strongly did the Lord reject any help or love by which others might be harmed or hated, as he still does today.
Yes, we are to love only, and not to hate our worst enemies (Lk. 6:[35]), even if they injure us collectively or individually. “If one member suffers, all suffer together,” says Paul (1 Cor. 12:[26]).

Out of Christ’s love come forbearance and love, hence we are not to injure anyone out of love for another; otherwise we abandon love for our enemies and miss the way of Christ, and only an outward alliance of mutual help as practiced in the whole world would result: If you help me, I will help you. But wherever true Christians can come to the aid of others in distress, be they friend or foe, if it can be given without injury to anyone, there it will never cease or be lacking among believers and followers of Christ because true Christian love injures nobody, neither friend nor foe.

103
People may also say: It cannot be proved by any Scripture that one should not carry a sword. In reply, one should know that it is made abundantly clear in many ways in the Scripture when revenge, war, anger and force are forbidden. If those things are forbidden, then the weapons used for them are also forbidden. For if you are ordered to stop keeping hogs in order to become a town councilor, you will also be ordered to lay aside the cudgel used for the hogs. You want to be a Christian, but hypocritically carry the sword or other weapon to pretend you are not a Christian; you want to be a disciple of Christ, yet at the same time want to be seen as conforming to the world. But such two-faced, double-minded hypocrites, like mules—neither horse nor real donkey—who still want to please the world and hide behind its shield as brothers, are not servants of Christ but servants and slaves of the world to which they want to conform (Gal. 1:[10]).

104
They are quick to accuse us, as the Jews did Christ and his followers: They want to oppose the emperor, forbid interest-taking, be disobedient, have no government, be lords themselves and call themselves King of the Jews and the like. But in their intoxication and with overflowing malice, they are really accusing Christ and his followers, who are innocent and have put away the sword and ruling power and are sheep ready for slaughter. But let one of the children of the world and of all the supposed Christians, new and old,104 who want to keep the worldly sword, emerge [as a contender], then see whether they do not quarrel about earthly rulership and seek to dominate physically with their mercenaries. Would to God it were not so that each wants to rule in order that no one may lord it over him!

As for us, we simply remain servants like our Master and Christ, who came not to be served; 105 we cannot be concerned with worldly authority. We need not worry about governments; there are enough rulers to be found. Let us simply see to it that we remain Christians, endure, and win the victory of the Lamb to the glory of the Father and Christ.

105
Paul the Apostle says, “It is no longer I that live but Christ who lives in me (Gal. 2:[20]), and, “Christ is my life” (Phil. 1:[20])—in whom Christ, and not he himself, lives. Even if a person were also a ruler, Christ would indeed verify in him exactly that which Christ himself did, namely, that his kingdom is not of this world (Jn. 18:[36]), from which he fled when he was about to be made king and a high ruler (Jn. 6:[15]), that he refused to judge in the division of the inheritance (Lk. 12:[14]), and that he refused to pass the death sentence on the woman taken in adultery (Jn. 8:[11]). In every believer in whom Christ lives he still does not do such things.

106
Christ commands that forgiveness of sins in his name be proclaimed to the whole world (Lk. 24:[47]), and in our Christian faith we confess and say: one holy Christian church, in which there is forgiveness of sins. All of this would be futile, yes, the preaching of repentance would be useless, if we Christians were to pass a death sentence, because sinners would thereby be deprived of this grace. Therefore, judgment over life and limb is not the business of the Christian. If it is our duty to forgive sinners their sins and transgressions for the sake of the name of Jesus Christ, the just judge, how can we then condemn sinners to death?


104. Probably Protestant and Catholic.
105. Mt. 10:45 and elsewhere.

Christ’s words would also be futile when he told Peter how often to forgive his brother (Mt. 18:[22]). For if we were to keep the law of Moses according to the letter, nothing could be forgiven the offender. For as soon as the sinner’s sin is revealed, the verdict of the law would also have to be pronounced on him.

107
The world has its laws; the Jews or the people of Moses had in their time their special system of laws over life and limb, far different from the world’s system. Christians and their Gospel also have their special system of laws and order given by Christ their King, not in accord with the Jewish law. For the kingdom of Christ is not physical but spiritual; it is a kingdom of peace and of the spiritual Melchizedek, where there is no strife nor lawsuit, nor use of the sword. Therefore the one must not be mixed with the other—the sword of the world put together with Moses and Christ, as the supposed Christians do. It is as harmonious as considering turnip greens and peas to be one and the same thing.
O blindness and confusion!—Amen.

This translation first appeared in the January, 2009 issue of the
Mennonite Quarterly Review.

***********************************************************


C
ChrisJD

(91)When David had the ark of God brought out of the house of Abinadab into the house of Obededom, and the oxen stumbled and Uzzah put hishand on the ark of God and held it, “the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah, and God smote him there” because of his wicked deed, and he died there by the ark (2 Sam. 6:[1ff]). This shows and represents figuratively that God neither wants nor needs men to defend, fight for, or preserve the Gospel with a human arm or the power of the sword, as though he were a god like an idol, unable to defend his Word and gospel himself.


And yet it is suggested elsewhere that those who have earthly power and authority are minsiters of God, [b]for the sake of Christians[/b]?


And so, Christians may enjoy the protection of the State but should warn those that protect them(those that offer protection through the sword) that God will destroy them for it also?

In the book of Acts we read of a similar situation:

"And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.


And as they went about to kill him, tidings came unto the chief captain of the band, that all Jerusalem was in an uproar.


Who immediately took soldiers and centurions, and ran down unto them: and when they saw the chief captain and the soldiers, they left beating of Paul."


Acts 21:30-32(KJV)

I suppose then, that after the speech that Paul made following this, he might have also(if he did have the same attitude as appeears the author would have us to take) he might also have, first thanked the captain for keeping law and order, and then warned him of God's judgment against him for it?

A short time ago a story was presented on the forums of a herd of elephants that were attacking people in india who had otherwise been persecuting Christians, while the elephants were leaving the Christians unharmed.


All of us were happy to read about this.


And yet I wonder if some would rejoice that Elephants can be ministers of God for justice on earth, but not that humans can, for then would God have to destroy them for it, because their acts of justice are evil?

I wonder.


[i]edited to add a portion of the qoute above that was unintentionaly left off at first[/i]

C
ChrisJD

I suppose then, that after the speech that Paul made following this, he might have also(if he did have the same attitude as appeears the author would have us to take) he might also have, first thanked the captain for keeping law and order, and then warned him of God's judgment against him for it?

I'd like to say something more to clarify what I meant above. The author of the aritcles that are being presented writes this, which was posted earlier:



(84)For in the great house of this world there are not only gold and silver vessels [but also wood and clay], some for honorable and some for ignoble use (2 Tim. 2:20), namely, the vessels of wrath, that is, servants of vengeance who punish with death and the sword, who are prepared for damnation

This above is the reason I suggest the author might believe that God would condemn the soldiers for rescuing Paul, perhaps for:

1) not allowing Paul martyrdom, for he writes elsewhere that Chrsitians are [i]...innocent and have put away the sword and ruling power and are sheep ready for slaughter[/i]

or

2) if realising that Paul had already been appointed by God to go to Rome, he may have suggested that God would condemned the soldiers, for not allowing God to intervene in some obvious and miraculous way, for he writes elsewhere that God:



...neither wants nor needs men to defend, fight for, or preserve the Gospel with a human arm or the power of the sword, as though he were a god like an idol, unable to defend his Word and gospel himself.

Anything, but what Paul had already written, that they were the ministers of God to Paul, for his good.


But the author calls them [i]..servants of vengeance who punish with death and the sword, who are prepared for damnation[/i].

C
chapel

Brother ChrisJD,

Would it be possible for you to use the number that goes with the paragraph you are quoting from? It will help with understanding context and in responding to your post.

Thank you for your thoughts, even though we may disagree.
lee

Quote:
96
The supreme Lord, Christ himself, did not come to reign, conquer, pass judgment or rule, nor have anybody brought before him for judgment (Jn. 5:[45]), nor did he himself want to bring charges against anyone; on the contrary, he himself served, and let himself be ruled, attacked, sentenced and condemned to death, and accepted injustice; in brief, he suffered. That is our mirror into which we want to look, in which we want to see whether we have the form of Christ or not. Then the dissension over government would soon be eliminated.

C
ChrisJD

Brother Lee, I added the numbers that you mentioned to the qoutes for two of my last posts. I could go back and do the others if you think it will be nescessary and I will try to use them if I qoute the articles in the future. Thank you for the suggestion!


Brother about this,



96 The supreme Lord, Christ himself, did not come to reign, conquer, pass judgment or rule, nor have anybody brought before him for judgment (Jn. 5:[45]), nor did he himself want to bring charges against anyone; on the contrary, he himself served, and let himself be ruled, attacked, sentenced and condemned to death, and accepted injustice; in brief, he suffered. That is our mirror into which we want to look, in which we want to see whether we have the form of Christ or not. Then the dissension over government would soon be eliminated.


But too, doesn't the Lord [b]now rule[/b] from Heaven? Even with a rod of Iron(Ps 2:6-9)? Doesn't He administer both mercy and justice in the Earth(Ps 45:1-7)? truth, and meekness, and righteousness?


Wouldn't these be good qualities in a earthly ruler?


When the Lord Jesus told the disciples that they were not to be like the gentiles, and [i]lord[/i] their authority over each other, He did not say they should not have authority, or that having authority was evil. He said that whoever would be [b]great[/b] among them, would be [i]their servant[/i]. Paul had authority(2Co 10:8), but excercised it as a servant(2Co 4:5).


And the Roman Centurion rightly recognised that the Lord Jesus, just as himself, both had authority, and was under authority(Luke 7:6-9)(see also John 5:27).


Yes, I think that if it could be admitted that an earthly ruler could rule with those qualities and not be considered evil for having authority, then some of the dissension over government might cease.


C
chapel

ChrisJD wrote:

When the Lord Jesus told the disciples that they were not to be like the gentiles, and lord their authority over each other, He did not say they should not have authority, or that having authority was evil. He said that whoever would be great among them, would be their servant. Paul had authority(2Co 10:8), but excercised it as a servant(2Co 4:5).

ChrisJD,
How did Jesus show this authority; by example? Jesus washed the feet of the disciples and taught them that the greatest among them would serve the rest. He did not show his authority by running his enemies through with a sword or instructing his disciples to do so.

Paul did not fight with the sword or instruct any Christian to do so. How did he serve by obeying the Lord and preaching the gospel of Christ from prison?

Not one disciple, (all by the way taught the word of God with authority) taught that a Christian should take up the sword of the flesh to fight against evil.

“90
Peter the Apostle says, “To this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that we should follow in his steps. He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly” (1 Pet. 2:[21-23]).96 See, that is the road on which Christians must also walk. They must suffer here without reviling when reviled, or threatening when they suffer, but commit everything to God, the just Judge (1 Pet. 3:[9]; Ps. 7:[2 ff]). “For the Lord is an avenger in all these things” (1 Thess. 4:[6]).
How could they then use the power of the sword, if he is to be Judge and Avenger? Absolutely not!”


Jesus led by example as did the disciples, 1Peter 2:21-23; no where in the teachings of Christ or the disciples, are ‘Christians’ told to do otherwise.
Romans 12:20-21
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

1 Thes. 5:15
See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.


Instead he tells us that evil will wax worse and worse:
2 Tim. 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.


That evil will make war on the saints and overcome them:
Rev. 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


Again we receive the warning that was given to Peter, the sword will not deliver but cause our defeat:
Rev. 13:8-10
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. [9] If any man have an ear, let him hear. [10] He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


But instead of commanding us to use the sword he assures us of the Lord’s faithfulness to keep us from evil.
2 Thes. 3:3
But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.


The word makes it very clear that our battle against evil is not to be fought with the sword of the flesh for evil only gains strength and prevails when fought against with flesh and blood.
2 Cor. 10:3-4
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: [4] (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)


Instead we are clearly told that to fight evil we must be equipped with the whole armor of God:
Ephes. 6:10-20
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. [11] Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. [13] Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. [14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; [15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; [16] Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. [17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: [18] Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; [19] And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, [20] For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.


There is no doubt that we are at war, but not against flesh and blood: Eph. 6:12

We will only prevail with: Eph. 6:13-14

Stand therefore!


One more point I would like to make clear so all will understand that the bad rap that non resistance has received by some on this thread is not true.

We do teach that Christians are to resist evil, but not through the flesh and not by trying to overcome evil with evil. We resist with the weapons that our Lord Jesus Christ instructed us to use, those that make us strong in the Lord and in the power of His might:
Eph. 6:10-20


No mention of overcoming evil with the sword of the flesh, in fact, just the opposite.

May the Lord’s Love and Peace keep you all

lee

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi chapel...

How did Jesus show this authority; by example? Jesus washed the feet of the disciples and taught them that the greatest among them would serve the rest. He did not show his authority by running his enemies through with a sword or instructing his disciples to do so.

Yes, he did this in regard to His disciples. However, he also used a whip that He Himself created and drove out those who were selling things at the Temple.

14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

John 2:14-17


I find this interesting. However, at the same time, we aren't talking about an example in regard to those who are acting in defense of someone else (such as a wife, child or a helpless stranger) when they are being unlawfully targeted by someone else. Do you see the difference in the setup of the analogy?

Paul did not fight with the sword or instruct any Christian to do so. How did he serve by obeying the Lord and preaching the gospel of Christ from prison?

Yes, but at the same time, many of the same people who are espousing what they presume to be "Christian non-resistance" also espouse various degrees of "Christian non-involvement." Yet Paul used his knowledge of the Roman legal system by invoking his Roman citizenship to avoid being an unlawful beating (Acts 22:27). This might have had something to do with the letter of the Roman law, which Paul certainly understood. His beating would have been unlawful. When testifying to Festus, Paul said that he did not do anything unlawful (according to the Law of Moses, against the Temple or against Roman law) and, if he had, would not have refused to die (Acts 25:8-11). Later on, he used that same Roman system to "appeal unto Caesar" in order to take the Gospel to Rome and Caesar's house (Acts 25:11 and Acts 26:32).

Do you see the difference. Paul was avoiding an UNLAWFUL beating by using his "rights" under the Roman legal system.

Not one disciple, (all by the way taught the word of God with authority) taught that a Christian should take up the sword of the flesh to fight against evil.

Using this same rhetorical logic, we do not find any direct command that says a believer cannot defend a family member (under his care), the weak, or actively participate as a member of the military, police or participate/engage in or with a government.

C
ChrisJD

Brother Lee,

Thank you for the questions that you put to me and for your patience with my responses in this thread so far.


I think that two seperate issues are in view.

One, how believers are invidually, or as a body together, to resist evil.

And what may or may not be permissable for a beleiver to participate in while acting as an agent of the State.


I personally am in full agreement with you that believers are not supposed to respond with violence or force when faced with the same, either personally, or as a body together. I'm fully persuaded that this is the way the Lord Jesus taught, as you have said also.

I'm not convinced however that they are forbidden to do so when acting as agents of the State. I believe that the many scriptures that we have looked at in this thread indicate that States are permitted the use of force by God, and that such use [b]is not necessarily[/b] evil or condemnded.


Which leads me to the question that you put forward here for us:



How did Jesus show this authority


Except for when He showed His power against the demons, when living here upon the earth for us, as a servant, it was just as you said.


However when He came into His Kingdom, and since then, I beleive it is reasonable to think that He has at times, demonstrated His Authority, by force(Mat 22:2-7).


When He was being tried by the council, it was demanded of Him by the high priest, to say whether or not He was the Christ.

His answer to them, in part, was that thereafter, he(the high priest) would see Him, [i]sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven[/i].


The response of the priest was that he tore his clothes and cried blasphemy.

And this all calls to mind Daniel chapter 7.


It was not too much before this that the Lord Jesus had spoken the parable of the vineyard, and the husbandmen(Mat 21:33-41).

The response of the religous leaders to this was that the Lord of the Vineyard would "...miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons."


And then the Lord Jesus told them that the Kingdom of God would be taken from them, and given to a nation that would bring forth its fruit.


The Lord Jesus told the high priest that demanded of Him, whether or not that He was the Christ, that thereafter, he would "...see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."


This speaking, as I understand it, to say that He had all power, in Heaven and in Earth.


And I think if we understand the history correctly, it was seen, or demonstrated. With force. In Ad 70(Mat 22:7).


Wish you all, and thank you for the blessing of peace.

C
chapel

ChrisJD wrote:

I think that two seperate issues are in view.

One, how believers are invidually, or as a body together, to resist evil.

And what may or may not be permissable for a beleiver to participate in while acting as an agent of the State.

I personally am in full agreement with you that believers are not supposed to respond with violence or force when faced with the same, either personally, or as a body together. I'm fully persuaded that this is the way the Lord Jesus taught, as you have said also.

I'm not convinced however that they are forbidden to do so when acting as agents of the State. I believe that the many scriptures that we have looked at in this thread indicate that States are permitted the use of force by God, and that such use is not necessarily evil or condemnded.


Hi ChrisJD,

States yes, Christians no; otherwise Paul could not say this to Christians, which to me makes it clear why we cannot participate in the offices and arms of the state.

Ephes. 6:10-20
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. [11] Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. [13] Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. [14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; [15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; [16] Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. [17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: [18] Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; [19] And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, [20] For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.


As I understand this: “Finally, my brethren”, I believe Paul is speaking only to Christians.

He is clearly teaching total dependence on the Lord, and the power of his might.
He then explains who our battle is with and what weapons ‘Christians’ are to use.
NONE are of the flesh; ALL are the armor of God.
He than explains that this is the ‘only way’ we are able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
He leaves no room for the flesh and only His armor will stand against the wiles of the devil.
I will add that this only applies to ‘Christians’ and not to those of the world.


We are to obey the word of God and not our emotions, which are directed to many times by the flesh.
1 Cor. 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


One question, where in the teachings of the New Testament are Christians ever told to be agents of the state? We are agents of the Lord Jesus Christ and it is made very plain, that as such we are to obey Eph. 6:10-20. We cannot split ourselves to be agents of the Lord with spiritual weapons (the whole armor of God) and then use the weapons of the flesh to be agents of the state.

There is only one evil not two separate ones.
John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Just as there is only one good, not two separate ones.
Matthew 19:16-17
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

1 Cor. 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Ephes. 4:5-6
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Thus we as Christians can only do battle with the whole armor of God.

Eph. 6:10-12
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. [11] Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

For the Christian, no other weapon will stand against the wiles of the devil.
This is why in the battle of Armageddon we see all nations gathered with all the weapons of the flesh to fight against the Lord, whom He shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Rev. 19:11-21
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. [12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. [14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. [16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
[17] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; [18] That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. [19] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. [20] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. [21] And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

2 Thes. 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


May the Lord’s Love and Peace be with us all.

lee

C
ChrisJD

Hi brother Lee,


about this and the passage from Ephesians,



...otherwise Paul could not say this to Christians, which to me makes it clear why we cannot participate in the offices and arms of the state.

I think we can both agree that this passage is giving instruction on how to fight the spiritual battle and to live the Christian life?


And yet, when Paul was at Ephesus, was he carnal in that he had fought with beasts(1Co 15:32)? Or did he it perhaps in the course of running his race to publish the Gospel, by some set of circumstances that we do not know?

No brother, I do not think that Paul's writting in the passage to the Ephesians is to say [b]whether or not[/b] Christians may engage in things of this world, but rather [b]how[/b] they should engage [u]everything in this world[/u]; that is by, and with, and through God, and faith in God.

For he says elsewhere,

"And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;"

- Col 3:23(KJV)

And this he had written unto servants. And would he not have written the same unto those who were called, [i]of the household of Ceasar[/i](Php 4:22)? Even if they were Ceasar's servants?

And could he not even say to them also,

"...of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ."

For did not Joseph serve the purposes of God and his brethren while in Egypt? Or Daniel the captives in Babylon? Or Nehemiah the returning exiles?

Did they not all serve God, in a foreign land?


Brother, I don't mean to say that I have the answers. But I'm not convinced that because States are of this world, that their service cannot be spiritual, if the one rendering it is.


Thank you again brother Lee,

Chris

H
HeartSong

Doing some research on Cain and Abel, I ran across something that I think is at the heart of the matter. In Genesis 4:17, after going forth from the presence of the Lord, Cain builds a city. H. C. Leupold in [i]Exposition of Genesis[/i] writes:

"The critical objections to the idea of the building of a city at so early a date in history fall away as soon as we remember that, of necessity, nothing more could be meant than a walled enclosure with a few houses. The primitive city need have been no more. Besides, this well accords with the accursed timorousness that marked Cain. In spite of promise and sign he never felt safe. He felt a city might afford a feeling of safety, but he was never able to complete his city."

C
chapel


Brother ChrisJD,
Sorry for the long delay, I have been in the VA hospital for an over due tune-up, now I'm good for another 100k.


ChrisJD wrote:

I think we can both agree that this passage (Eph. 6:10-20) is giving instruction on how to fight the s
piritual battle and to live the Christian life?

ChrisJD
Which is exactly what the New Covenant is all about,fighting a spiritual battle and living the Christian life, not serving the world.

ChrisJD wrote:

And yet, when Paul was at Ephesus, was he carnal in that he had fought with beasts(1Co 15:32)? Or did he it perhaps in the course of running his race to publish the Gospel, by some set of circumstances that we do not know?

ChrisJD
Man was given authority over beast but not over one another. In fact Jesus made it very clear that we were not to be like the world but we were to be servants….
Matt. 20:25-28
Mark 10:42-45
Luke 22:25-26
And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. [26] But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

Now the teachings of Jesus, the disciples and the early church make it very clear what Jesus was talking about and it was not having dominion over others, but serving them.

ChrisJD wrote:

No brother, I do not think that Paul's writting in the passage to the Ephesians is to say whether or not Christians may engage in things of this world, but rather how they should engage everything in this world; that is by, and with, and through God, and faith in God.

For he says elsewhere,

"And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;"

- Col 3:23(KJV)

ChrisJD
Then what you are saying is that it is ok to bypass the teachings of Jesus, Paul and the disciples as long as we do it as a Christian, heartily as to the Lord and not unto man.

Which means I can join together with many heathens of the state; drop bombs, call in artillery, lob grenades and fire my rifle; killing men, women, and children in the name of the state; as long as I do so as a Christian and do it heartily unto the Lord and not unto man.

I’m sorry ChrisJD but that seems to be rather absurd.

What you have stated does not seem to match the teachings of Jesus, Peter, James, Paul or any of the other disciples, or for that matter the teachings of the early church.

Matthew 5:2-12
And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, [3] Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [4] Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. [5] Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. [6] Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. [7] Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. [8] Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. [9] Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. [10] Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [11] Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. [12] Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Matthew 5:13-16
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. [14] Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. [15] Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. [16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 5:43-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Luke 6:27-32
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, [28] Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. [29] And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. [30] Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. [31] And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. [32] For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

Luke 9:54-56
And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? [55] But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. [56] For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

He did not come to destroy men’s lives and as Christians neither are we. He is the Christians example to follow not the state. Men hate us because we are not of the world;
But instead they love many who claim to be Christian because there is little or no
difference from them and the world.

John 15:17-20
These things I command you, that ye love one another. [18] If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. [19] If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. [20] Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.


Luke 10:25-37
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? [26] He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? [27] And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. [28] And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. [29] But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? [30] And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. [31] And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. [32] And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. [33] But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, [34] And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. [35] And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. [36] Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? [37] And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.


Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

We are called to teach and lead others to Jesus and to obey all things he commanded. Not to be strong arms for the state.

Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

2 Cor. 10:3-4
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: [4] (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

Romans 12:17-21
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. [18] If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. [19] Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. [20] Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Col. 3:12-13
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; [13] Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

1 Thes. 5:15
See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

2 Tim. 2:24-26
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, [25] In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; [26] And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Titus 3:1-2
Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, [2] To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

James 4:1-4
From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? [2] Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. [3] Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. [4] Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

1 Peter 2:21-25
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: [22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: [23] Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: [24] Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. [25] For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

1 Peter 3:8-18
Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: [9] Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. [10] For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: [11] Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. [12] For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
[13] And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? [14] But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; [15] But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: [16] Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. [17] For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. [18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 4:1-2
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; [2] That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

1 John 2:15-17
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. [16] For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. [17] And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Galatians 5:16-17
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. [17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Galatians 5:22-25
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. [25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

How can we live and walk in the Spirit and ignore all these teachings of Jesus, Paul and the other disciples?

James 3:17-18
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. [18] And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
This does not in any way describe the state and how it operates today. We are of the kingdom that cannot be shaken which is not earthly but resides in those who are washed by his precious blood, which speak not of earthly kingdoms but the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 12:22-29
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, [24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. [25] See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: [26] Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. [27] And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. [28] Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: [29] For our God is a consuming fire.
The day will come when we will serve our God as kings and priest, but not until He has brought forth a new heaven and earth.

Rev. 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev. 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev. 22:5
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Thus we do not serve the princesses of this world, who “come to nought”, but our Lord Jesus Christ, speaking the wisdom of God to those who will believe.

1 Cor. 2:1-7
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. [2] For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. [3] And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. [4] And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: [5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. [6] Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: [7] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

2 Cor. 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

We are called by Jesus Christ to teach all nations, not rule over them. To obey all He commanded of the disciples, which does not put forth one word instructing us to serve in positions of this world.

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Ephes. 4:1-32
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, [2] With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; [3] Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. [8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. [9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) [11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: [16] From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
[17] This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, [18] Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: [19] Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. [20] But ye have not so learned Christ; [21] If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: [22] That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; [23] And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; [24] And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
[25] Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. [26] Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: [27] Neither give place to the devil. [28] Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. [29] Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. [30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. [31] Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: [32] And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.


If these doctrines of a Christian serving in the world are so clear and expected to be the doctrine of the church; then why are they silent in the teachings and examples of Jesus, the disciples, and the early church? Even though this question has been raised before, it has never been answered with the word of God, only with the thoughts of how men think it should be, or with the argument of silence (Jesus or the disciples never said not to) here is where personal feelings of survival get mixed in; trying to speculate what he did or did not say.

If we are depending on the one who has promised to build His Church and the gates of hell or the arm of man will not prevail against it; then we are that church; We are His people and we are more than conquerors in HIM.

No it is not the world we are to live our lives unto, but the Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus and His teachings are our example to follow.

Proverbs 3:13, 17
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
[17] Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.

May the Lord’s Love and Peace be with us all.

lee

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone.

Chapel, welcome back, and I'm gratefull for your well being.


I hope that I will be able to respond adequately and sensibly to some of the things you put forward. For my part, I'm not much interested in continuing in this discussion much further. I had returned to this thread after I saw it continue, in part because I felt that some of the things being presented were not fair to others that hold a differing view on this subject. But were declaring them to be unbelievers.


Speaking about Ephesians chapter 6, we were saying,


Which is exactly what the New Covenant is all about,fighting a spiritual battle and living the Christian life, not serving the world.

[i]...not serving the world[/i]

But the Christian life is lived [b]in this world[/b] and among the people of this world(Mat 5:13, 1Co 5:9-11). Are we saying that if we serve anyone or anything else but Christians or the Christian Church that we are no longer serving God?

But then why would we ever feed or clothe those who consider us an enemy?


Man was given authority over beast but not over one another.


But doesn't Paul say that all authority comes from God? And hasn't God given His authority to men on the Earth?


And wasn't the Lord Jesus set under authority while on the Earth? Wasn't that the observation of the centurion who asked(EDIT changed the word sent to asked) for the Lord Jesus to heal his servant(Luke 7:1-9)?


I don't believe that authority in and of itself is evil or wrong. But how it is used can be evil and wrong, and this I think is brought out in what you shared further:


In fact Jesus made it very clear that we were not to be like the world but we were to be servants….

Matt. 20:25-28
Mark 10:42-45
Luke 22:25-26
And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. [26] But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

Now the teachings of Jesus, the disciples and the early church make it very clear what Jesus was talking about and it was not having dominion over others, but serving them.


[i]...what Jesus was talking about and it was not having dominion over others, but serving them.[/i]


I'm not sure this is exactly how it reads though brother?

The Lord doesn't say there shall be [b]none great among you[/b], or [b]none that are chief[/b], does He?

But, to the one [b]that is great among you[/b], that he should be, how?, [i]as the younger[/i], and the one that is chief, that he should be [i]as he that serves[/i]? Even as the Lord was among them also(Luke 22:27)? But doesn't He also promise them a kingdom in the future(Luke 22:28-30)?


I mean to say that it doesn't appear to me that the Lord Jesus said that authority was wrong, but that His people were not to excercise it among themselves the same way that the unbelievers do.

I think this is much the same way that Paul the Apostle used his authority that he had been given by God(2Co 10:8, 2Co 4:5).

And even how he handled his authority, when treating with other Christians, one having authority over the other, as with Onesimus, and Philemon, who Paul [i]beseeches[/i], and not rather [i]enjoins[/i](though he says he could be much bold in Christ to do so), beseeching him, not as Paul the Apostle, but Paul the Aged, to recieve his servant Onesimus back, and this time not as a servant, but as a beloved brother(Phm 1:1-25). But this he says also to Timothy, that those that have believing masters should not despise them either(1Ti 6:1-5).

But all of this is to say how Christians should treat with each other, and I do not think says whether or not Christians may have seats of authority among the people of the world. Does Paul call Erastus the chamberalin an unbeliever or evil or rebellious to Christ because he had a postion in governement?


Brother, about this:



Then what you are saying is that it is ok to bypass the teachings of Jesus, Paul and the disciples as long as we do it as a Christian, heartily as to the Lord and not unto man.

Which means I can join together with many heathens of the state; drop bombs, call in artillery, lob grenades and fire my rifle; killing men, women, and children in the name of the state; as long as I do so as a Christian and do it heartily unto the Lord and not unto man.

I’m sorry ChrisJD but that seems to be rather absurd.

What you have stated does not seem to match the teachings of Jesus, Peter, James, Paul or any of the other disciples, or for that matter the teachings of the early church.

Matthew 5:2-12
And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, [3] Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [4] Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. [5] Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. [6] Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. [7] Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. [8] Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. [9] Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. [10] Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [11] Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. [12] Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.


But brother, even if you and I could not conscience doing those things or could not serve God that way, is it possible that others could?

Wasn't David persecuted for rightesouness sake?(Ps 7:1-5),

Was he not merciful(Ps 35:11-14)?

Did he not seek to make peace(2Sa 3:1-39)? or desire a clean heart(Ps 51:10), or see God(Ps 63:2)? or in those same things mourn? and did he not hunger and thirst for righteousness(Ps 139:23-24)?


Brother, I think it is hard for me to understand too, how if we could say that God permits men to use the sword but will condemn them for it on the last day also?

Doesn't David rather say that God would judge the sons of Zuriah, not for using the sword, as he himself had, but for using it wickedly(2Sa 3:39)?


cont...

C
ChrisJD

cont...


He did not come to destroy men’s lives and as Christians neither are we.


But neither are Governments set by God to destroy men's lives, but are for their good(Romans 13:4), and that does not mean there for the good of Christians only, but for all that do good. And not even for those that do good only but for the general welfare of all. As it is now, that the US Government is aiding the people of Haiti.



He is the Christians example to follow not the state.


Yes the Lord Jesus is our example. And because it appears that before He began His ministry that He worked as a craftsman of some sort, must all believers have the same or a similar trade? But was He not born King also? Yet kingship or leadership of anykind is forbidden by anyone that would follow Him?


Men hate us because we are not of the world; But instead they love many who claim to be Christian because there is little or no difference from them and the world.


Alright brother, but does that mean that anyone that particpates in earthly government is a compromiser and must nescessarily be loved by the world?


For some reason, Joseph was not recognised by his brethren after serving so long in Egypt, but is he remembered in the scripture as a man of faith or a man of the world? And when there arose a king that did not know Joseph the people of God were again treated hard.


Or what of Esther, though she had the favor of the king was she not hated by Haman?

Just because a man serves in government, must he compromise his integrity? Did not Daniel retain his own diet, and doesn't the scripture say it was God that had brought Daniel into favor? But was he still not hated by the Chaldeans(Dan 3:8), and though he was given a heathen name(Dan 1:7), does than mean his heart became the heart of a heathen also(Dan 9:1-23)?


We are called by Jesus Christ to teach all nations, not rule over them. To obey all He commanded of the disciples, which does not put forth one word instructing us to serve in positions of this world.


No, the Lord Jesus doesn't give specific instructions for what sort of work each believer is supposed to do, does He?
He does not tell us each to be carpenters, or tentmakers, or whatever else. But Paul does say, that whatever we do, we should do it as unto the Lord.

Now, we would both agree that the whatever does not include anything that is evil. But so far as I can tell, the scripture does not call serving in governemtns,

evil. But they can be, ministers of God to others, for good.


Thank you for the blessing of peace also brother. May it be so.

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