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RICK WARREN- False Teacher or man of God?

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False Teachers or Men of God? How are we to discern, how are we to tell the difference? Once we find out, should we tell others? What does God's Word, the Bible, tell us to do?

As Christian believers were are told to examine ourselves. In 2nd Corinthians 13:5 we are told: 5. Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Does the Bible tells us to test those that say they are Christians by the Word of God that they supposedly teach from?
1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 says: “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil.” So we definitely should judge all things (movies, books, music, and behavior of people).

When the Bible says not to judge it is talking about the bad type of judging. So in order not to practice the bad kind of judging, we must understand the two types of judging.

[b]Two Types of Judging [/b]
1. Discerning (Good Judging)
Identifying the spirit behind an action
2 Timothy 3:16-17 : “16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 4:2 says: “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Titus 2:15 says: “These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”

Ephesians 5:11 says: “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.”

1 Corinthians 2:15-16 says” But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.”

[color=990000][b]So, believers should judge all matters and all issues. [/color][/b]

I John 4:1 says: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” [b] Believers should test the spirits behind a person’s action to see if the action brings glory to God.

Paul, who wrote most of the New Testament, judged someone in the church. See 1 Corinthians 5:1-13. Then see 2 Corinthians 2:5-11 to see where Paul encourages the church to forgive the person.

2. Condemning and Criticizing (Bad Judging)
Using people’s sin as an excuse to lower or belittle them.

Harsh punishment without encouragement to follow.

Cursing a person or prophesying destruction into their lives. Note: it is ok to warn someone of possible consequences, but it is not ok to say things which may discourage the person or lead them to believe that the worst is the only outcome they will have.

Sentencing with no mercy.

Correcting someone when guilty of the same thing.

People who practice the bad kind of judging often are guilty of the same sin they are using to belittle another person. Jesus addressed this scenario in Matthew 7:1-5 and Luke 6:41-42, and these are the verses which people sometimes twist in order to defend their sinful desires.

The problem is that people sometimes quote
Matthew 7:1 only which reads “Judge not, that ye be not judged.” (KJV), but one must also read verses 2-5 to understand the point Jesus was making. The point Jesus was making was not to judge someone of the same sin we have in our own lives. Another way to look at the point Jesus was making is by answering this question: How can a person help someone escape quicksand if that person is also stuck in the same quicksand?
Paul echoes the point Jesus was making in Romans 2:1-4. This passage reads: “Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?” (KJV).

[u]Christians should judge and Christians should not judge- both are true.[/u]

What makes judging right or wrong depends on the spirit, motive and attitude in which judging is being done. So, the conclusion is that Christians should judge the actions of other people, but Christians should not make conclusions about the degree of punishment that a person will receive from God. The only conclusion that a Christian can accurately make is that if a person does not accept God’s plan of salvation, that person will be separated from God throughout all eternity, because this is what the Bible tells us (see Revelation 20:11-15).

Bad Judgment Statement: “You are going to hell because of what you do.”

Good Judgment Statement: “God will help you with your problem and God wants to save you from spiritual death if you choose to let Him.”

If we are going to make a negative comment to a person about their behavior, we should be just as quick to give encouragement, and tell the person about the rewards of repentance.
God, who is the ultimate judge, is full of grace and mercy, so we should also be full of grace and mercy.

James 2:12-13 says: “So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”

As Christians we should remember and understand that we too were once lost.

Titus 3:3-5 says: “For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful,and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”

[color=990000][b]Non-Christians are unable to make sound judgments about Christians. [/color][/b]

1 Corinthians 2:15-16 says: “But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

When people hear the word “judge” or “judgment” bad things usually come to mind, but often, good things come out of judgment. A judge rewards a person who has done the right thing. After death, everyone will face judgment. “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment...” (Hebrews 9:27) . For non-believers, the judgment mentioned will be the Great White Throne judgment spoken of in Revelation 20:11-15; where all who trust their own good works for salvation are to be judged according to their works and Jesus will say "depart from me.", because the works of men cannot redeem them from their sins. Only God’s sacrifice can redeem us from our sin. People who put their trust in Jesus alone for their salvation will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ which is mentioned in 2 Corinthians 5:10; where they will receive what is due to them according to what they did, but they will be told to enter into everlasting life because they are covered by the blood of God’s sacrifice- Jesus. For people who trusted God, their final judgment will be a good event, but non-believers will face a bad judgment.

People often do not come to God and receive salvation because they are afraid their sins .will be exposed and they are afraid they will be judged (see John 3:19-21). They do not understand that God is full of grace and mercy and that it pleases Him when men confess their wrongs. Christians should also be full of grace and mercy, but this is not always the case. It is a shameful and sad situation when church people treat others like they are trash because
So, when we study the teachings of Christian Pastors and Teachers, we are commanded to compare their teachings to what the Bible teaches about the same things. In this way we can see- are the teaching truth, or teaching falsehood?

[color=990000][b]Rick Warren is a false teacher who:

I. Denies The Holy Spirit (Jude 4 "the only Lord God")

In his book The Purpose-Driven Life, which is primarily written to Christians, on page 212 Warren writes:

"Let me be clear: If you're losing the battle against a persistent bad habit, an addiction, or a temptation, and you're stuck in a repeating cycle of good intention-failure-guilt, you will not get better on your own! You need the help of other people.

Here Warren denies the power of the Holy Spirit that is resident in every believer's life (John 7:39). In the context of speaking to believers, he says "You need the help of other people" in order to overcome "a persistent bad habit, an addiction, or a temptation." Scripture nowhere says any such thing. On the contrary, Scripture says,

[u]The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. [/u]
(Galatians 5:22-23)

All any believer needs is the Holy Spirit, as God also says,

Walk by the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16)

As a believer walks by the Spirit of God he will have self-control, since this is part of the fruit of the Spirit, and he will not have sinful bad habits, or addictions.

In the context of Warren's statement above, Rick supports his statement with Ecclesiastes 4:9-10, but he misuses these verses. Ecclesiastes 4:9-10 is not speaking of the salvation that comes only through Christ (Acts 4:12). But, Warren deceitfully uses these verses and,

II. Denies Our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 2:1; Jude 4)

On the same page in The Purpose-Driven Life Warren writes,
God's plan for your growth and freedom includes other Christians. Authentic, honest fellowship is the antidote to your lonely struggle against those sins that won't budge.
The Bible never gives fellowship as an antidote against sin that won't budge. On the contrary, Jesus said,
Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
(John 8:34-36)

Jesus declares that He is the antidote against sin. Scripture says to those who have Christ that "sin shall not have dominion over you" (Romans 6:14). Why? Because Jesus has set them free (John 8:31-34).

Yet, in denial of Jesus Christ and His HolyWord Rick Warren writes:
“Some problems are too ingrained, too habitual, and too big to solve on your own. You need a small group or an accountability partner who will encourage you, support you, pray for you, love you unconditionally; and hold you accountable”. (ibid., p. 213-214)

In other words, some sins are too hard for the Savior, Jesus Christ, to solve. "You need a small group." Yes indeed, you do need a small group if you do not have the Savior, and you want to end up in hell being cursed forever with your trust in man (Jeremiah 17:5). This is where Warren's "Purpose-Driven Life" leads. It leads to eternal death (Revelation 21:8). It is a Purpose-Driven Death, because the trust, the faith, is not in the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, but rather in man and his man-made way of dealing with sin.

This is well illustrated by Saddleback's "Celebrate Recovery" program. Warren writes,

"At Saddleback Church we have seen the awesome power of this principle to break the grip of seemingly hopeless addictions and persistent temptations through a program we developed called Celebrate Recovery. (ibid., p. 213)"

Here it is admitted that a man-made ("we developed") program is used to "break the grip of . . . addictions." In other words, a man-made program has been developed to do what Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit does - "break the grip of" sin. This is a flat-out denial of our Lord Jesus Christ, as 2 Peter 2:1 and Jude 4 declare men like Warren will do.
Warren goes on and says,
"
In the past ten years over 5,000 lives have been set free from all kinds of habits, hurts, and addictions. Today the program is used in thousands of churches. I highly recommend it for your church. (ibid., p. 213)"

Jesus says He is the one who sets free (John 8:31-36). Warren lies and says his program sets free.

III. Denies The Power of Godliness (2 Timothy 3:5)

All of this reveals that Warren DENIES the power of godliness. When someone DENIES the Holy Spirit, and DENIES Jesus Christ, as Warren does, the fact of the matter is, they DENY the power of godliness; that is, the power that is resident in the salvation of Christ. Scripture is not unclear on this matter (e.g. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21). When Christ saves a person, they are set free from the dominating power of sin (John 8:31-34). They no longer live in a pattern of habitual sin. This distinguishes real believers from false believers, as 1 John 2:3-5 says,
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
Likewise, Ephesians 5:5-6 says,
“For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.”

Warren deceives with empty words by declaring that Christians would even have any need to be set free from addictions and "sins that won't budge" (ibid., p. 212). His lewdness (Jude 4) is even more manifest when one realizes that when Warren speaks of addictions and "sins that won't budge" he believes there are such things as Christian sexual perverts, Christian drunks, Christian drug addicts. (www.celebraterecovery.com/SmallGroups/chemdep.asp), etc..

This is particularly articulated by the words of one of Saddleback's pastors, John Baker, who declared himself to be an elder of Saddleback church and "a believer who struggles with alcoholism." In this same testimony Baker proclaimed concerning Celebrate Recovery,
Some of the groups include codependant relationships, eating disorders, smoking addiction, sexual and physical abuse victim's groups, groups for adult children of alcoholics, sexual and relationship addictions, and veteran's group for those dealing with post traumatic stress syndrome.

(www.celebraterecovery.com/johnb.asp, hard copy on file)

Then, speaking of these people, Baker says,
All of us have several things in common. We love Christ, we're willing to turn our lives over to Him, and we're praying that we can begin to break the cycle of dysfunction for our families.
Baker declares they "love Christ"! This is such a lie. None of them love Christ, because not only are they still lost (caught) in their sin, but they are in a man-made program to overcome their sin or problems. Therefore, they reveal their trust is in man (Jeremiah 17:5) and not in the Savior, the Rock of refuge (Psalm 31:2; 46:1; 94:22).

This lewdness goes so far as to include homosexuals! Homosexuals are included in their "sexual . . . addictions" mentioned above. In other words, Warren and Saddleback church believes there is such a thing as a homosexual Christian, which is totally absurd (Romans 1:18-32; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). This we know, because they openly admitted this as of June 22, 1999, and we have a hard copy of their files. But, as soon as we exposed this folly on the public sidewalks outside their church, they restricted access to these pages. This is what the web page said:

Celebrate Recovery is committed to help strengthen and support Christians who struggle with homosexual feelings and behaviors or who have a desire to leave the homosexual lifestyle.[/u] (old web address, http://web.archive.org/web/19990203041850/http://www.celebraterecovery.com/reclaim.htm, hard copy on file).

"Christians . . . who have a desire to leave the homosexual lifestyle" (i.e. christian homosexuals)? That is lewd! There is no such thing as a christian homosexual (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

Now, lest some fool argue, "Are you perfect?" Or, "All Christians struggle with sin." Warren is not talking about any struggles with sin that every Christian lives with the rest of their life (as in Romans 7). Warren promises a cure. He claims this Celebrate Recovery can set a person free. The problem is, he is speaking of the very freedom Christ offers (John 8:31-34), which, by the way, neither Warren nor his program can deliver. Anyone who follows his folly will never be free, because this deceit leads to nowhere but eternal death (2 Corinthians 11:14-15; Revelation 12:9; 21:8).
People are deceived by Warren, in part, because he mixes "Jesus" into his man-made program. As Warren states,
"You are going to see lives changed in dramatic ways. You are going to see hopeless marriages restored and people set free from all kinds of sinful habits, hang-ups, and hurts as they allow Jesus to be Lord in every area of their lives. (www.celebraterecovery.com/message.asp)
Salvation is only attained via submitting in every area of your life to Christ (Luke 14:26-33; Romans 10:9-10), and once this is truly done, Christ sets free from all kinds of sinful habits (John 8:31-34; Romans 10:10). No program or fellowship is needed or even helpful for this. Some might argue such a program is not needed, but can be helpful, but it is not helpful for any soul to be set free via a man-made program. Why? Because through such an approach, the trust is not truly in Christ, but in a program that cannot and will not truly save.

The only time Scripture describes a need for one another (i.e. fellowship), is in the context of the functioning of the body of Christ (e.g. 1 Corinthians 12:21), or the serious benefit of two or more in everyday living, as in Ecclesiastes 4:9-12. When it comes to having self-control and being saved from the dominating power of sin, it is Christ, and Christ alone who saves (Acts 4:12; 1 John 2:27).

[u]IV. Denies The Fear of God[/u]

On page 95 of The Purpose-Driven Life Warren writes,
We obey God, not out of duty or fear or compulsion, but because we love him and trust that he knows what is best for us.
On page 228 he writes,
We don't serve God out of guilt or fear or even duty, but out of joy, and deep gratitude for what he's done for us.
To say that we don't serve God out of fear, is to direct people down the same damning path they have been on: "There is no fear of God before their eyes" (Romans 3:18).

Hebrews says, "Let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:28-29)

The Bible describes Godly fear as terror (Job 23:16; 31:23; 37:1; 2 Corinthians 5:11), trembling (1 Chronicles 16:30; Ezra 10:3; Psalm 96:9; 99:1; 114:7; Isaiah 66:2, 5), and being afraid (Psalm 76:7, 11; 89:7; 96:4; 119:120; 130:4). Warren says we are not to serve God out of fear, but this is a lie. Even Jesus served God out of fear, as it is written,
Who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear. (Hebrews 5:7)
Jesus Christ was heard because of His godly fear. You will not be heard, and you will not be saved from death, eternal death, if you don't serve God out of fear, because,
The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, to turn one away from the snares of death. (Proverbs 14:27)

You will not be turned away from the snares of death, if you do not serve God out of fear, because,
By the fear of the Lord one departs from evil. (Proverbs 16:6)
If you do not fear the Lord, you will not depart from evil, and you will therefore reap the wrath of God, as it is written,
I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity. (Isaiah 13:11)
But, those who serve God out of fear, they shall have eternal life.
The fear of the Lord leads to life, and he who has it will abide in satisfaction; he will not be visited with evil. (Proverbs 19:23)
By humility and the fear of the Lord are riches and honor and life. (Proverbs 22:4)
Now, lest anyone think otherwise, believers are also to serve God out of love (Mark 12:30). The love of God and the fear of God are not mutually exclusive. The Bible clearly teaches both, and the Psalmist well illustrates both exist simultaneously (see Psalm 119:20; 97, 120). [For more on the fear of God, please see our report entitled, The True Fear of God.]

[u]V. Denies The Wrath of God Upon ALL Who Live Ungodly[/u]

Consistent with his denial of the Holy Spirit, his denial of Christ, and his denial of the salvation of God, is Warren's denial of the wrath of God upon anyone who lives for themselves. On page 232 in The Purpose-Driven Life Rick writes,
The Bible warns unbelievers, "He will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves," [Romans 2:8] but for Christians it will mean a loss of eternal rewards.
This is such a destructive lie! It will not only mean a loss of eternal rewards, it will mean the loss of their eternal soul (Mark 8:36). God makes no distinction whatsoever upon those who "live for themselves." He will pour out his anger and wrath on all those who live for themselves. Note the context of the passage to which Warren refers:
He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and practice evil deeds. There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps sinning - for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good. (Romans 2:7-10 NLT)
True Christians do not live for themselves, as Romans later declares,
None of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. (Romans 14:7-8)
Therefore, a true Christian would never come under such wrath, lose any rewards, or anything else, because if they did, if they did live for themselves, they would no longer be a Christian (Romans 14:7-8, "none"), and Romans 2:8 would be fulfilled even upon them (Ezekiel 3:20; 33:12-13; See our report on Eternal Security for more info).

[u]VI. Denies James 4:4[/u]
Consistent with all of the above is Warren's denial of James 4:4. On page 297 in his Purpose-Driven Death book Warren writes,
You have a choice to make. You will be either a world-class Christian or a worldly Christian.
Worldly Christians look to God primarily for personal fulfillment. They are saved, but self-centered. They love to attend concerts and enrichment seminars, but you would never find them at a missions conference because they aren't interested. Their prayers focus on their needs, blessings, and happiness. It's a "me-first" faith: How can God make my life more comfortable? They want to use God for their purposes instead of being used for his purposes.
James 4:4 says,
Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
James declares even a simple desire to be a friend of the world makes one an enemy of God. Warren speaks of a "Christian" who is downright worldly. In either case, both the "Christian" who simply desires to be a friend of the world, or the "Christian" who is a friend of the world (i.e. worldly), both are an enemy of God. They are in no way saved, for this is what God has to say about His enemies:
Your hand will find all Your enemies; Your right hand will find those who hate You. You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger; the Lord shall swallow them up in His wrath, and the fire shall devour them. (Psalm 21:8-9)
For behold, Your enemies, O Lord, for behold, Your enemies shall perish. (Psalm 92:9)
The Lord reigns; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad! Clouds and darkness surround Him; righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne. A fire goes before Him, and burns up His enemies round about. (Psalm 97:1-3; see also Deuteronomy 32:41-42; Isaiah 1:24; 42:13; 59:18; 66:6, 14)

[u]VII. Denies 1 Timothy 4:1-3[/u]
In The Purpose-Driven Life Warren reveals that he does not believe Catholics have departed from the faith, give heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, and speak lies in hypocrisy (1 Timothy 4:1-3). He quotes Catholics as if they were in the faith. For example, on page 88 Warren writes,
The classic book on learning how to develop a constant conversation with God is Practicing the Presence of God. It was written in the seventeenth century by Brother Lawrence, a humble cook in a French monastery. Brother Lawrence was able to turn even the most commonplace and menial tasks, like preparing meals and washing dishes, into acts of praise and communion with God.
So Warren describes this Catholic (www.catholicapologetics.0catch.com), who according to God was involved with demons (1 Timothy 4:1-3), as one who had communion with God. Paul said,
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons. (1 Corinthians 1:21)
There is no way this man was anything but a liar and a wicked man with demons in his life (1 Timothy 4:1-3). Yet Warren recommends his book. Why? Because Warren rejects 1 Timothy 4:1-3 (as well as 2 John 9, etc.).

In this same book, Warren cites "St. John of the Cross" (a Catholic, p. 108), Madame Guyon (a Catholic mystic, p. 193), and Mother Teresa (p. 125, 231). It is apparent Warren has no problem with those who are not in the faith and are involved with demons. Of course, this fits well with Warren since he follows the worldly wisdom of the AA 12 step approach in dealing with sin in his Celebrate Recovery program.

[u]VIII. Denies The Gospel[/u]

The 12 step approach came from another man involved with demons, Bill Wilson (see Pass It On, p. 275f). Baker in his testimony notes,
The Christ-centered 12 steps are included because so many of those attending Celebrate Recovery have come from a 12 step background. You will see how the 12 steps fit and are covered by Celebrate Recovery's Eight Recovery Principles, based on the Beatitudes. (www.celebraterecovery.com/johnb.asp, hard copy on file)

Baker lies in hypocrisy when he says it is "Christ-centered," because the very fact that they feel they need 12 steps (or 8 steps) to go through to overcome the power of addictive sin proves it is not only not Christ-centered, but it is a rejection of Christ. If it was Christ-centered it (Celebrate Recovery) would not exist, because it would not be needed; because Christ would have already set free (John 8:31-34) all who come to Him (John 1:12-13).
Celebrate Recovery is another gospel, and Warren, Baker, and all who promote such a thing are to be cursed because of it (Galatians 1:8-9).

[u]IX. Denies True Humility[/u]

On page 148 of Warren's death book, after quoting Philippians 2:3-4, he writes,
Humility is not thinking less of yourself; it is thinking of yourself less. (ibid., p. 148)
Warren speaks directly against the very words he quotes. Warren quotes out of the NCV in which it says,
Give more honor to others than to yourselves.
The KJV reads, "In but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves." Giving more honor to others than to yourself and esteeming others better than yourself is certainly thinking less of yourself. Warren perverts what humility is and diverts people away from it. His warped view of humility is further displayed when he writes,
Humble people are so focused on serving others, they don't think of themselves. (ibid.)

This also is a lie, since the very verse Warren quotes states,
"Do not be interested only in your own life, but be interested in the lives of others". (NCV)

In other words, you can be interested in your own life, just don't be interested only in your own life."

This perverted teaching on humility goes well (for deceiving people) with his self-worth teaching. On page 63 of The Purpose-Driven Life Warren promotes self-worth. He writes,
Bringing enjoyment to God, living for his pleasure, is the first purpose of your life. When you fully understand this truth, you will never again have a problem with feeling insignificant. It proves your worth. (bold added)
This is a lie. Anyone given the awesome privilege to bring enjoyment to God (e.g. Proverbs 15:8; 2 Corinthians 5:9) should realize any such privilege is totally by God's grace (Ephesians 2:8-10) and has nothing to do with them (Romans 9:11-22). It has nothing to do with any worth. It has everything to do with God's great mercy and kindness to undeserving unworthy sinners (Romans 5:8-10).

Someone may argue, "But Warren speaks of the worth God places upon a person, as Warren writes immediately after this:

If you are that important to God, and he considers you valuable enough to keep with him for eternity, what greater significance could you have?"

What about the people God has chosen to spend eternity in hell (Proverbs 16:4)? Are they worth less to God? Are they worthless? Are they insignificant? Does not the Scripture say, "For God so loved the world . . . " (John 3:16)? Are the elect somehow worth more?

When it comes to salvation, this whole "worth" and "significance" push by Warren is not found anywhere in Scripture, but what is found is the fact that God chooses people for salvation completely apart from anything to do with them. Election, salvation, is according to "the purpose of God," not some worth factor (Romans 9:11-23).

Warren's teaching gets people to focus on themselves (your worth, your significance), and Scripture gets people to focus on God, and His great love toward mankind (Ephesians 2:4). Warren's teaching is perverted, and encourages people away from true humility. Scripture is not perverted, and encourages people toward real humility, as it is written,
Lord, what is man, that thou takest knowledge of him! or the son of man, that thou makest account of him! Man is like to vanity: his days are as a shadow that passeth away.. (Psalm 144:3-4)
Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing. (Isaiah 40:15)
All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity. (Isaiah 40:17)
With Isaiah 40:15-17 in view, it should be clear that the value God places upon men (e.g. Matthew 6:26; 10:31; Luke 12:7, 24) is a matter of God's mercy and kindness and has nothing to do with man's "significance." As David wrote, “my goodness extendeth not to thee;” (Psalm 16:2)

In conclusion, Rick Warren is a false teacher. This is my conclusion, based upon Rick Warrens own words, in his own book the “Purpose Driven Life” as compared to God's Word, the standard, the Bible! He is also a Pied Piper, leading millions of other dear baby Christians, who have been deceived by him, right into the lake of fire.[/color][/b]

Sincerely,
Walter


L
Leo_Grace

I appreciate the information, Walter. Thank you.

J
JCGarc55

i will put it this way. I wouldn't be part of a church where Rick Warren, his purpose driven life or purpose driven church principles were taught.

I also believe the man is sincere and a nice man and that's why it's difficult to call him a false teacher. We need to pray for the man.

S
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Waltern, do you still believe that temptation and sin are one and the same??? I remember having this debate awhile back and you were clear that temptation and sin are indeed the same. I ask this because your scathing critiques seem to lack any humility whatsoever. Now if you still believe that temptation and sin are one and the same, then this biblical error on your part needs so be taken into account before you write your dissertations on biblical discernment and how this relates to false teachings.... which you often do. Now if I had the zeal and veracity that you do, I could say that you follow a doctrine of demons for believing this. But will I do this??? NO. Why? Because your zeal for truth is evident even in your error.

I will say this, the truth one speaks is no less important than the manner it is spoken. Warning someone of false teachings or teachers is a duty to be taken seriously and it can be a passionate plea. But it should also lack an overkill of zealousness that leads to condescending rants which borders on complete arrogance. I for one cannot talk too much about passionate pleas or emphatic responses that has made people here on the forum uncomfortable. But I try to temper this by not being overly persistent in hashing and rehashing the topic to the point where it is starting to reflect more on me than those I am warning against. In addition, you're trashing a lot of people... saying they have a doctrine of demons. Yet I could say the same for any error you may have in doctrine which is why I brought up the 'temptation-sin' thing. Certainly you wouldn't want me to accuse you in the same manner as you accused many within your posts. You can make your arguments without your constant, persistent, lengthy, and scathing accusations collateral to your original point. I think you might get better and more amicable responses if you toned down your posture that acts more like a Professor giving a lecture or an Op-Ed piece than a brother who is articulating their discernment.

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http://herescope.blogspot.com/2008/02/new-do-good-gospel.html

http://herescope.blogspot.com/2008/04/tony-blair-faith-foundation.html

Rick Warren sits on the Advisory Board of the Tony Blair Faith Foundation.
http://www.tonyblairfaithfoundation.org/about-us/who-we-are/advisory-council.html


http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/05/peace-un.htm


http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/006/discernment/12-11-CFR-social-gospel.htm


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To ccrider;

The Bible is clear about what we (saved Chritians) are to do with false teachers.

Please, go back to my original post, and read it. Then, if you disagree with it, respond to it point by point, with SCRIPTURE that supports your position that he (Rick Warren) is not a wolf in sheeps clothing.

My Christian Grandmother always said—“If it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck---then by all means it is a duck”

I am one of the hundreds of those that have left Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa since May, 2009. Why are we leaving? In the past (2006), Chuck pulled all of Rick Warrens books and tapes out of the Bookstore, and made an announcement on his daily radio program (The Pastors Perspective) that Calvary Chapel was not endorsing Rick Warren or his “purpose driven model”.

Why did Calvary Distribution remove Rick Warren's Purpose Driven books and related materials from their distribution? The reasons given for this decision were as follows:


Differences in Eschatology

Differences with regard to the Emerging Church

Differences with regard to contemplative prayer and mysticism

Differences with regard to church growth principles and beliefs.

He made this additional statement to Lighthouse Trails:

“Christianity has always been made up of strong leaders who take different positions. In this case, we see two well-known contemporary leaders going in two different directions. I also know that many Calvary Chapel pastors approved the decision and applauded Calvary Distribution when the Rick Warren materials were no longer being distributed.

Because there are some Calvary pastors who strongly disagree with this decision, it is very possible that in the future there will be a split of the Calvary Chapel movement. The pressures on young pastors today to conform to the current trends for the sake of having a successful big church are ever increasing.”

xxxxxxxxxxxx

Now, fast forward to May 29th, 2009 when Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa held a special event (Movement 2009) with featured speaker Mike Erre. Erre is the author of Death by Church: Saving Jesus From His Followers, a book that is riddled with emerging spirituality concepts and teachings (e.g. universalism, kingdom-now theology, panentheism, etc.)

Next lets go to Calvary Chapel’s 20-year anniversary Harvest Crusade (8/16/09), where Chuck Smith, founder of Calvary Chapel, introduced Rick Warren as “my good friend who pastors Saddleback Church” and asked him to lead in prayer The lack of applause (and confusion) from Chucks introduction of Rick Warrent from the audience is very apparent, when Chuck introduces Rick Warren as “my good friend”.

Also, the next day (Monday- 8/17/09) on Pastors Perspective one of Chuck’s first questions from an incredulous believer:

“Should pastors share a platform at an evangelical event with someone who typifies the Emergent Church, a minister?”

Smith: "[chuckle] That’s difficult, John, because, you know, you might say in a sense that last night I was on the platform with a minister that they say that he is a part of the Emergent Church, that he has, you know, sort of a different emphasis in his ministry, more of a social emphasis on what the church should be doing socially for people rather than the spiritual emphasis, and so I was on the platform with him but, you know, I think that it would be divisive. Now the man, I’m convinced, loves the Lord, HAS A LARGE CHURCH, and is, you know, feels that he is called of God to really DEAL WITH THE SOCIAL PROBLEMS OF OUR WORLD TODAY.

Now it could be that God IS calling him to that, but that isn’t why God has called ME to do and so, but I can still look at him as a brother in Christ – he believes that Jesus died for our sins and he just has a different emphsis as far as what he feels should be the priority of the church today.. We were both invited to be there but we were on the platform together, sat next to each other, and he is a brother in Christ, and so

I didn’t really have any real problem with sharing, being on the same program together with him."
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

According to scripture, the spiritual emphasis is EVERYTHING. There isn’t a secondary “emphasis” that someone can pick and choose to focus on. Warren is apostate and unfortunately Smith won’t call him on it because he doesn’t want to be “divisive”.

[color=990000][b]The reason that I am focusing on these issues is that I have attended Calvary, Chapel Costa Mesa for many years, and have seen this ministry compromise on many issues in the past, but we continued to attend because of our love for Chuck Smith.

We no longer attend Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa. We should have never stayed when all this started in the first place, it has just emboldened Chuck Smith all the more. I really believe that Roger Oakland had Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa right, when he posted Ichabod on the internet several years ago:[/color][/b]

[b]ICHABOD

Commentary by Roger Oakland
www.understandthetimes.org [/b]

For printer friendly version, please click here

The Bible calls Satan the great deceiver. To be deceived means to be led away from the truth without knowing it. If the person being deceived knew they were being deceived, then deception would not have occurred. One must believe that one is not deceived in order to be deceived. It is just that simple.

I believe that understanding deception has a lot to do with having a proper perspective. Instead of having God’s perspective, the person being deceived has his own perspective. A human desire for power and the potential to be proud are two of the greatest barriers that prevent us from seeing God’s perspective. Satan’s plan is to deceive mankind by working on human weaknesses. He knows what he is doing.

In Proverbs we read: “There is a way that seemeth right unto man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” [1] Think about this for a moment. The Bible states “the wages of sin is death.” So what may seem right, can lead to death because the consequence of sin is death. Do you see how deception works?

Sometimes it is beneficial to take time to do a reality check on our lives. For example, a Christian can be confident that he or she is serving the Lord when he is actually deceived. This is because what we do “seems to be right” in our eyes.

Not long ago a situation occurred which helped me to see how easily one can be deceived by not having the proper perspective. I was looking over a series of slides on my digital camera. I had taken these photos while traveling around England. Without knowing what I had done I had somehow expanded the view on one particular slide from the normal view to a view that was 10 times enlarged. As I was flipping through the slides, I could not figure out what the scene was that I had photographed.

Moving the picture around on the screen from left to right and top to bottom did not help. It was the most frustrating experience. Nothing that I could see in the photo seemed to give me a clue where I had taken this photo. Suddenly, I remembered how to view the slide in the normal unexpanded view. In a second I could see what the picture was and recalled exactly where I had taken it. I just needed the proper perspective.

Perhaps this illustration will be useful to help you see what can happen to human beings, ministries, pastors and even denominations. It is very easy to go about our lives thinking we are God’s chosen vessel, doing His will, when we are deceived and doing the work of Satan. This is why it is important that we read the Word and give ourselves a reality check from time to time.

When the Glory Has Departed

I know Christian leaders and denominations that started out right but have ended up wrong. This downfall can be predicted in light of church history. God has raised up individuals from time to time to be leaders. As long as these leaders are led by the Holy Spirit and continue in His Word, God’s blessings will be abundant. Sometimes, a pastor will become a leader and a model for many other pastors. Eventually, a fellowship of churches with like-minded pastors may be the result.

This fellowship of pastors teaches the Word of God and the sheep are enlightened and fed. The sheep, because they are learning, love God with all their heart. This love spreads to the horizontal plane and love is overflowing. The sheep want to tell others about Jesus. It is even possible to have a Jesus movement.

However, the passing of time has a way of helping us forget. Perhaps another way of saying this is that Satan hates what God is doing. It doesn’t take long before the fellowship of pastors takes on a different perspective. Some pastors forget from where they came. They were once shepherds with small flocks. As they taught the Word and fed the sheep, the small flocks grew to become mega-churches.

These mega-churches grew to the point that there was no longer a flock, there was a herd. There were so many sheep in the flock that the shepherd had no choice but to manage the flock by turning the church into a corporation.

As everyone knows, churches, when they become corporations have to operate like a corporation not a church. In the world, people in corporations are always looking for position. The only way one can be successful in climbing the corporate ladder is to be loyal to the corporation and the corporate president.

Here lies a problem—when a Christian becomes more loyal to a man than to the Son of Man, spirituality can soon turn into carnality. Carnality that is further driven by the obsession for power, position and possession often is the perfect recipe for disaster. What once was a wonderful Spirit-filled church now becomes a machine that simply goes through the motions. Everything looks like it is working. However, the machine is broken.

When the Spirit Departs

In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit inspired the writer of I Samuel to give us an example of what happened to the children of Israel in days past.

Israel, as a nation, knew the glory of God's presence among them. The children of Israel prospered and became strong as they followed the Lord. However, Israel turned from God by making wrong choices. Eventually, they came to the place where the presence of God was no longer among them. The glory of God had departed.

In a desperate attempt to win a battle with the Philistine army, Israel devised a plan. The leaders actually believed that if they took the ark of the covenant with them to battle that God was obligated to lead them to victory.

Such was not the case. God did not fight for Israel. Israel was defeated and the Philistines triumphed and even took the ark. When a messenger returned from the battlefield with the sad news that the army was defeated, the ark captured, and the two sons of Eli were dead, Eli fell backward off his chair, broke his neck and died.

Eli’s daughter-in-law, the wife of one of the sons killed in battle was pregnant. When she heard the news that her husband, brother-in-law and father-in-law were dead she went into labor. She gave birth to a son, but she died during the delivery. The Bible states that the woman who was acting as the midwife named the son—Ichabod. “Ichabod” means the glory has departed. [1]

There are other examples in Scripture of what happens when the Spirit of God departs from a man. For example in 1 Samuel 16: 14 we read, “But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.” Or, remember the story of Samson. Once empowered by the Spirit there came a time when the LORD departed from him and Samson was not even aware that it happened. [2]

A Biblical Solution

The Bible paints a grim scenario with regard to what happens when the Spirit of God departs, doesn’t it? Well, I have some good news. There is a solution.

I believe that such a scenario could be turned around. God wants His servants to finish the race. He does not take joy in seeing them defeated.Do you recall the words of Jesus when He spoke to the church at Ephesus as recorded in Revelation 2? [3] While the members of the church were noted for saying what was right, in their zeal to be right, they were wrong. In fact it almost seems as if the Spirit of God had departed from their midst

This can be deduced by reading what Jesus said. He was warning that He would depart from their midst. Jesus said that the church at Ephesus had “left their first love” and that they needed to “repent” and “return to the place” where they had once been. That means they had departed and did not know it.

Jesus said He would remove the “candlestick” if they did not repent. Clearly Scripture interprets this to mean that Jesus would remove His presence from the church of Ephesus. Did that mean He was about to write “Ichabod” above the door of the church?

The Spirit of God points us to the Word. The Word, Jesus said, is the truth. What we do with the truth is entirely up to us. We can choose to obey or to disobey.

I would pray that every Christian would sincerely ask God for His perspective of where we are and what we are doing. Don’t rely upon the praises of man or the fear of man as a spiritual barometer.

When we stand before the throne all the things we did in the flesh will burn like wood and hay. Only those things that were done when we were led by the Spirit will count.

It is all about getting the right perspective, now.

Before it is too late.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] I Samuel 4:1-21

[2] Judges 16:20

[3] Revelation 2:1-7

Sincerely,

Walter



ccrider wrote:
Waltern, do you still believe that temptation and sin are one and the same??? I remember having this debate awhile back and you were clear that temptation and sin are indeed the same. I ask this because your scathing critiques seem to lack any humility whatsoever. Now if you still believe that temptation and sin are one and the same, then this biblical error on your part needs so be taken into account before you write your dissertations on biblical discernment and how this relates to false teachings.... which you often do. Now if I had the zeal and veracity that you do, I could say that you follow a doctrine of demons for believing this. But will I do this??? NO. Why? Because your zeal for truth is evident even in your error.

I will say this, the truth one speaks is no less important than the manner it is spoken. Warning someone of false teachings or teachers is a duty to be taken seriously and it can be a passionate plea. But it should also lack an overkill of zealousness that leads to condescending rants which borders on complete arrogance. I for one cannot talk too much about passionate pleas or emphatic responses that has made people here on the forum uncomfortable. But I try to temper this by not being overly persistent in hashing and rehashing the topic to the point where it is starting to reflect more on me than those I am warning against. In addition, you're trashing a lot of people... saying they have a doctrine of demons. Yet I could say the same for any error you may have in doctrine which is why I brought up the 'temptation-sin' thing. Certainly you wouldn't want me to accuse you in the same manner as you accused many within your posts. You can make your arguments without your constant, persistent, lengthy, and scathing accusations collateral to your original point. I think you might get better and more amicable responses if you toned down your posture that acts more like a Professor giving a lecture or an Op-Ed piece than a brother who is articulating their discernment.

S
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Walter wrote:

The reason I am focusing on these issues is that I have attended Calvary, Chapel Costa Mesa for many years, and have seen this ministry compromise on many issues in the past, but we continued to attend because of our love for Chuck Smith.

We no longer attend Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa.By our being there emboldens him to compromise all the more.

Well done brother. Watchmen like yourself are what is needed in these last days. It is not easy to exercise discernment in the chaos of this Laodicean Church Age.

For example, two Sundays ago, Brian Broderson preached on Rev. 17 and, with Pastor Chuck on the podium behind him, denounced the Emerging Church in general and Brian McLaren specifically for their ecumenicalism and disregard for the Word of God. Clearly a smoke screen to conceal Calvary Chapel's Emerging Agenda; not to mention Pastor Chuck's involvement in the Emerging Church/Mystery Babylon/Illuminati conspiracy to impurify our precious bodily fluids through the fluoridation of the water supply. Make no mistake, brother, fluoridation is the most monsterously conceived and dangerous Illuminati plot we've ever had to face.

Nor can we forget Calvary Chapel Area 51 and its recent consortium with Venusian reptile-men.

The watchword in these last days must be: trust no one! Believe no one! And drink only bottled water!

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LoinGirder, in jest, posted:

[b]
The watchword in these last days must be: trust no one! Believe no one! And drink only bottled water!
[/b]

Walter’s Response:

No, actually the “watchword” in these last days is [b][u]The Word of God.[/u][/b] Some of us believe every Word of it, and others do not.

One day we will all be judged by the Word, Jesus Christ. Some of us will be judged at the Bema Seat, the Judgment Seat of Rewards. Others of us will be judged by the Word, Jesus Christ, at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Sincerely,

Walter


LoinGirder wrote:
Walter wrote:

The reason I am focusing on these issues is that I have attended Calvary, Chapel Costa Mesa for many years, and have seen this ministry compromise on many issues in the past, but we continued to attend because of our love for Chuck Smith.

We no longer attend Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa.By our being there emboldens him to compromise all the more.

Well done brother. Watchmen like yourself are what is needed in these last days. It is not easy to exercise discernment in the chaos of this Laodicean Church Age.

For example, two Sundays ago, Brian Broderson preached on Rev. 17 and, with Pastor Chuck on the podium behind him, denounced the Emerging Church in general and Brian McLaren specifically for their ecumenicalism and disregard for the Word of God. Clearly a smoke screen to conceal Calvary Chapel's Emerging Agenda; not to mention Pastor Chuck's involvement in the Emerging Church/Mystery Babylon/Illuminati conspiracy to impurify our precious bodily fluids through the fluoridation of the water supply. Make no mistake, brother, fluoridation is the most monsterously conceived and dangerous Illuminati plot we've ever had to face.

Nor can we forget Calvary Chapel Area 51 and its recent consortium with Venusian reptile-men.

The watchword in these last days must be: trust no one! Believe no one! And drink only bottled water!

S
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Walter’s Response:

No, actually the “watchword” in these last days is [b][u]The Word of God.[/u][/b] Some of us believe every Word of it, and others do not.

One day we will all be judged by the Word, Jesus Christ. Some of us will be judged at the Bema Seat, the Judgment Seat of Rewards. Others of us will be judged by the Word, Jesus Christ, at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Sincerely,

Walter

Hey Walter, you handled that one very well. Good job. ;-)

J
JCGarc55

[i]Next lets go to Calvary Chapel’s 20-year anniversary Harvest Crusade (8/16/09), where Chuck Smith, founder of Calvary Chapel, introduced Rick Warren as “my good friend who pastors Saddleback Church” and asked him to lead in prayer The lack of applause (and confusion) from Chucks introduction of Rick Warrent from the audience is very apparent, when Chuck introduces Rick Warren as “my good friend”. [/i]

This is all new to me. Thanks for letting me know. I had no idea. :-o

C
ChrisJD

HI everyone,


Waltern, you said this,


"Believers should test the spirits behind a person’s action to see if the action brings glory to God."

You have been confronted on these formus by moderators and other users mulitple times about this same thing, including this thread.


What has been your response?

You also wrote,

'Bad Judgment Statement: “You are going to hell because of what you do.”'

And then you finished what you wrote by saying,


"He is also a Pied Piper, leading millions of other dear baby Christians, who have been deceived by him, right into the lake of fire."

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To ChrisJD:

Well, here we are again. Please provide something other than your own opinion on this issue that supports your position that no “Christians” should ever be examined by other Christains, to see if they are truly what they proclaim to be--"Christian Believers"”

I have used the Word of God, that is clear on this issue. No matter what you or I believe, it must be supported by Scripture.

False prophets and false teachers have been within the body of Christ since the beginning!

Here you go, one more time. Lets see how you respond to God’s Word, to God’s Requirement. If you do not agree with Scripture, then please post from whatever [u]authority[/u] you rely on, other than God’s Word—and not just your own personal opinion, in regards to this issue:

[color=990000][b]False Teachers or Men of God? How are we to discern, how are we to tell the difference? Once we find out, should we tell others? What does God's Word, the Bible, tell us to do?

As Christian believers were are told to examine ourselves. In 2nd Corinthians 13:5 we are told: 5. Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Does the Bible tells us to test those that say they are Christians by the Word of God that they supposedly teach from?
1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 says: “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil.” So we definitely should judge all things (movies, books, music, and behavior of people).

When the Bible says not to judge it is talking about the bad type of judging. So in order not to practice the bad kind of judging, we must understand the two types of judging.

Two Types of Judging
1. Discerning (Good Judging)
Identifying the spirit behind an action
2 Timothy 3:16-17 : “16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 4:2 says: “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Titus 2:15 says: “These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”

Ephesians 5:11 says: “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.”

1 Corinthians 2:15-16 says” But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.”

So, believers should judge all matters and all issues.

I John 4:1 says: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” Believers should test the spirits behind a person’s action to see if the action brings glory to God.

Paul, who wrote most of the New Testament, judged someone in the church. See 1 Corinthians 5:1-13. Then see 2 Corinthians 2:5-11 to see where Paul encourages the church to forgive the person.

2. Condemning and Criticizing (Bad Judging)
Using people’s sin as an excuse to lower or belittle them.

Harsh punishment without encouragement to follow.

Cursing a person or prophesying destruction into their lives. Note: it is ok to warn someone of possible consequences, but it is not ok to say things which may discourage the person or lead them to believe that the worst is the only outcome they will have.

Sentencing with no mercy.

Correcting someone when guilty of the same thing.

People who practice the bad kind of judging often are guilty of the same sin they are using to belittle another person. Jesus addressed this scenario in Matthew 7:1-5 and Luke 6:41-42, and these are the verses which people sometimes twist in order to defend their sinful desires.

The problem is that people sometimes quote
Matthew 7:1 only which reads “Judge not, that ye be not judged.” (KJV), but one must also read verses 2-5 to understand the point Jesus was making. The point Jesus was making was not to judge someone of the same sin we have in our own lives. Another way to look at the point Jesus was making is by answering this question: How can a person help someone escape quicksand if that person is also stuck in the same quicksand?
Paul echoes the point Jesus was making in Romans 2:1-4. This passage reads: “Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?” (KJV).

Christians should judge and Christians should not judge- both are true.

What makes judging right or wrong depends on the spirit, motive and attitude in which judging is being done. So, the conclusion is that Christians should judge the actions of other people, but Christians should not make conclusions about the degree of punishment that a person will receive from God. The only conclusion that a Christian can accurately make is that if a person does not accept God’s plan of salvation, that person will be separated from God throughout all eternity, because this is what the Bible tells us (see Revelation 20:11-15).

Bad Judgment Statement: “You are going to hell because of what you do.”

Good Judgment Statement: “God will help you with your problem and God wants to save you from spiritual death if you choose to let Him.”

If we are going to make a negative comment to a person about their behavior, we should be just as quick to give encouragement, and tell the person about the rewards of repentance.
God, who is the ultimate judge, is full of grace and mercy, so we should also be full of grace and mercy.

James 2:12-13 says: “So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”

As Christians we should remember and understand that we too were once lost.

Titus 3:3-5 says: “For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful,and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”

[b]Non-Christians are unable to make sound judgments about Christians.

1 Corinthians 2:15-16 says: “But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

When people hear the word “judge” or “judgment” bad things usually come to mind, but often, good things come out of judgment. A judge rewards a person who has done the right thing. After death, everyone will face judgment. “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment...” (Hebrews 9:27) . For non-believers, the judgment mentioned will be the Great White Throne judgment spoken of in Revelation 20:11-15; where all who trust their own good works for salvation are to be judged according to their works and Jesus will say "depart from me.", because the works of men cannot redeem them from their sins. Only God’s sacrifice can redeem us from our sin. People who put their trust in Jesus alone for their salvation will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ which is mentioned in 2 Corinthians 5:10; where they will receive what is due to them according to what they did, but they will be told to enter into everlasting life because they are covered by the blood of God’s sacrifice- Jesus. For people who trusted God, their final judgment will be a good event, but non-believers will face a bad judgment.

People often do not come to God and receive salvation because they are afraid their sins will be exposed and they are afraid they will be judged (see John 3:19-21). They do not understand that God is full of grace and mercy and that it pleases Him when men confess their wrongs. Christians should also be full of grace and mercy, but this is not always the case. It is a shameful and sad situation when church people treat others like they are trash because
So, when we study the teachings of Christian Pastors and Teachers, we are commanded to compare their teachings to what the Bible teaches about the same things. In this way we can see- are the teaching truth, or teaching falsehood?[/color][/b]

[b][color=000000]Rick Warren is a false teacher who:

I. Denies The Holy Spirit (Jude 4 "the only Lord God")

In his book The Purpose-Driven Life, which is primarily written to Christians, on page 212 Warren writes:

"Let me be clear: If you're losing the battle against a persistent bad habit, an addiction, or a temptation, and you're stuck in a repeating cycle of good intention-failure-guilt, you will not get better on your own! You need the help of other people.

Here Warren denies the power of the Holy Spirit that is resident in every believer's life (John 7:39). In the context of speaking to believers, he says "You need the help of other people" in order to overcome "a persistent bad habit, an addiction, or a temptation." Scripture nowhere says any such thing. On the contrary, Scripture says,

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
(Galatians 5:22-23)

All any believer needs is the Holy Spirit, as God also says,

Walk by the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16)

As a believer walks by the Spirit of God he will have self-control, since this is part of the fruit of the Spirit, and he will not have sinful bad habits, or addictions.

In the context of Warren's statement above, Rick supports his statement with Ecclesiastes 4:9-10, but he misuses these verses. Ecclesiastes 4:9-10 is not speaking of the salvation that comes only through Christ (Acts 4:12). But, Warren deceitfully uses these verses and,

II. Denies Our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 2:1; Jude 4)

On the same page in The Purpose-Driven Life Warren writes,
God's plan for your growth and freedom includes other Christians. Authentic, honest fellowship is the antidote to your lonely struggle against those sins that won't budge.
The Bible never gives fellowship as an antidote against sin that won't budge. On the contrary, Jesus said,
Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
(John 8:34-36)

Jesus declares that He is the antidote against sin. Scripture says to those who have Christ that "sin shall not have dominion over you" (Romans 6:14). Why? Because Jesus has set them free (John 8:31-34).

Yet, in denial of Jesus Christ and His HolyWord Rick Warren writes:
“Some problems are too ingrained, too habitual, and too big to solve on your own. You need a small group or an accountability partner who will encourage you, support you, pray for you, love you unconditionally; and hold you accountable”. (ibid., p. 213-214)

In other words, some sins are too hard for the Savior, Jesus Christ, to solve. "You need a small group." Yes indeed, you do need a small group if you do not have the Savior, and you want to end up in hell being cursed forever with your trust in man (Jeremiah 17:5). This is where Warren's "Purpose-Driven Life" leads. It leads to eternal death (Revelation 21:8). It is a Purpose-Driven Death, because the trust, the faith, is not in the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, but rather in man and his man-made way of dealing with sin.

This is well illustrated by Saddleback's "Celebrate Recovery" program. Warren writes,

"At Saddleback Church we have seen the awesome power of this principle to break the grip of seemingly hopeless addictions and persistent temptations through a program we developed called Celebrate Recovery. (ibid., p. 213)"

Here it is admitted that a man-made ("we developed") program is used to "break the grip of . . . addictions." In other words, a man-made program has been developed to do what Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit does - "break the grip of" sin. This is a flat-out denial of our Lord Jesus Christ, as 2 Peter 2:1 and Jude 4 declare men like Warren will do.
Warren goes on and says,
"
In the past ten years over 5,000 lives have been set free from all kinds of habits, hurts, and addictions. Today the program is used in thousands of churches. I highly recommend it for your church. (ibid., p. 213)"

Jesus says He is the one who sets free (John 8:31-36). Warren lies and says his program sets free.

III. Denies The Power of Godliness (2 Timothy 3:5)

All of this reveals that Warren DENIES the power of godliness. When someone DENIES the Holy Spirit, and DENIES Jesus Christ, as Warren does, the fact of the matter is, they DENY the power of godliness; that is, the power that is resident in the salvation of Christ. Scripture is not unclear on this matter (e.g. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21). When Christ saves a person, they are set free from the dominating power of sin (John 8:31-34). They no longer live in a pattern of habitual sin. This distinguishes real believers from false believers, as 1 John 2:3-5 says,
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
Likewise, Ephesians 5:5-6 says,
“For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.”

Warren deceives with empty words by declaring that Christians would even have any need to be set free from addictions and "sins that won't budge" (ibid., p. 212). His lewdness (Jude 4) is even more manifest when one realizes that when Warren speaks of addictions and "sins that won't budge" he believes there are such things as Christian sexual perverts, Christian drunks, Christian drug addicts. (www.celebraterecovery.com/SmallGroups/chemdep.asp), etc..

This is particularly articulated by the words of one of Saddleback's pastors, John Baker, who declared himself to be an elder of Saddleback church and "a believer who struggles with alcoholism." In this same testimony Baker proclaimed concerning Celebrate Recovery,
Some of the groups include codependant relationships, eating disorders, smoking addiction, sexual and physical abuse victim's groups, groups for adult children of alcoholics, sexual and relationship addictions, and veteran's group for those dealing with post traumatic stress syndrome.

(www.celebraterecovery.com/johnb.asp, hard copy on file)

Then, speaking of these people, Baker says,
All of us have several things in common. We love Christ, we're willing to turn our lives over to Him, and we're praying that we can begin to break the cycle of dysfunction for our families.
Baker declares they "love Christ"! This is such a lie. None of them love Christ, because not only are they still lost (caught) in their sin, but they are in a man-made program to overcome their sin or problems. Therefore, they reveal their trust is in man (Jeremiah 17:5) and not in the Savior, the Rock of refuge (Psalm 31:2; 46:1; 94:22).

This lewdness goes so far as to include homosexuals! Homosexuals are included in their "sexual . . . addictions" mentioned above. In other words, Warren and Saddleback church believes there is such a thing as a homosexual Christian, which is totally absurd (Romans 1:18-32; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). This we know, because they openly admitted this as of June 22, 1999, and we have a hard copy of their files. But, as soon as we exposed this folly on the public sidewalks outside their church, they restricted access to these pages. This is what the web page said:

Celebrate Recovery is committed to help strengthen and support Christians who struggle with homosexual feelings and behaviors or who have a desire to leave the homosexual lifestyle.[/u] (old web address, http://web.archive.org/web/19990203041850/http://www.celebraterecovery.com/reclaim.htm, hard copy on file).

"Christians . . . who have a desire to leave the homosexual lifestyle" (i.e. christian homosexuals)? That is lewd! There is no such thing as a christian homosexual (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

Now, lest some fool argue, "Are you perfect?" Or, "All Christians struggle with sin." Warren is not talking about any struggles with sin that every Christian lives with the rest of their life (as in Romans 7). Warren promises a cure. He claims this Celebrate Recovery can set a person free. The problem is, he is speaking of the very freedom Christ offers (John 8:31-34), which, by the way, neither Warren nor his program can deliver. Anyone who follows his folly will never be free, because this deceit leads to nowhere but eternal death (2 Corinthians 11:14-15; Revelation 12:9; 21:8).
People are deceived by Warren, in part, because he mixes "Jesus" into his man-made program. As Warren states,
"You are going to see lives changed in dramatic ways. You are going to see hopeless marriages restored and people set free from all kinds of sinful habits, hang-ups, and hurts as they allow Jesus to be Lord in every area of their lives. (www.celebraterecovery.com/message.asp)
Salvation is only attained via submitting in every area of your life to Christ (Luke 14:26-33; Romans 10:9-10), and once this is truly done, Christ sets free from all kinds of sinful habits (John 8:31-34; Romans 10:10). No program or fellowship is needed or even helpful for this. Some might argue such a program is not needed, but can be helpful, but it is not helpful for any soul to be set free via a man-made program. Why? Because through such an approach, the trust is not truly in Christ, but in a program that cannot and will not truly save.

The only time Scripture describes a need for one another (i.e. fellowship), is in the context of the functioning of the body of Christ (e.g. 1 Corinthians 12:21), or the serious benefit of two or more in everyday living, as in Ecclesiastes 4:9-12. When it comes to having self-control and being saved from the dominating power of sin, it is Christ, and Christ alone who saves (Acts 4:12; 1 John 2:27).

IV. Denies The Fear of God

On page 95 of The Purpose-Driven Life Warren writes,
We obey God, not out of duty or fear or compulsion, but because we love him and trust that he knows what is best for us.
On page 228 he writes,
We don't serve God out of guilt or fear or even duty, but out of joy, and deep gratitude for what he's done for us.
To say that we don't serve God out of fear, is to direct people down the same damning path they have been on: "There is no fear of God before their eyes" (Romans 3:18).

Hebrews says, "Let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:28-29)

The Bible describes Godly fear as terror (Job 23:16; 31:23; 37:1; 2 Corinthians 5:11), trembling (1 Chronicles 16:30; Ezra 10:3; Psalm 96:9; 99:1; 114:7; Isaiah 66:2, 5), and being afraid (Psalm 76:7, 11; 89:7; 96:4; 119:120; 130:4). Warren says we are not to serve God out of fear, but this is a lie. Even Jesus served God out of fear, as it is written,
Who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear. (Hebrews 5:7)
Jesus Christ was heard because of His godly fear. You will not be heard, and you will not be saved from death, eternal death, if you don't serve God out of fear, because,
The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, to turn one away from the snares of death. (Proverbs 14:27)

You will not be turned away from the snares of death, if you do not serve God out of fear, because,
By the fear of the Lord one departs from evil. (Proverbs 16:6)
If you do not fear the Lord, you will not depart from evil, and you will therefore reap the wrath of God, as it is written,
I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity. (Isaiah 13:11)
But, those who serve God out of fear, they shall have eternal life.
The fear of the Lord leads to life, and he who has it will abide in satisfaction; he will not be visited with evil. (Proverbs 19:23)
By humility and the fear of the Lord are riches and honor and life. (Proverbs 22:4)
Now, lest anyone think otherwise, believers are also to serve God out of love (Mark 12:30). The love of God and the fear of God are not mutually exclusive. The Bible clearly teaches both, and the Psalmist well illustrates both exist simultaneously (see Psalm 119:20; 97, 120). [For more on the fear of God, please see our report entitled, The True Fear of God.]

V. Denies The Wrath of God Upon ALL Who Live Ungodly

Consistent with his denial of the Holy Spirit, his denial of Christ, and his denial of the salvation of God, is Warren's denial of the wrath of God upon anyone who lives for themselves. On page 232 in The Purpose-Driven Life Rick writes,
The Bible warns unbelievers, "He will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves," [Romans 2:8] but for Christians it will mean a loss of eternal rewards.
This is such a destructive lie! It will not only mean a loss of eternal rewards, it will mean the loss of their eternal soul (Mark 8:36). God makes no distinction whatsoever upon those who "live for themselves." He will pour out his anger and wrath on all those who live for themselves. Note the context of the passage to which Warren refers:
He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and practice evil deeds. There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps sinning - for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good. (Romans 2:7-10 NLT)
True Christians do not live for themselves, as Romans later declares,
None of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. (Romans 14:7-8)
Therefore, a true Christian would never come under such wrath, lose any rewards, or anything else, because if they did, if they did live for themselves, they would no longer be a Christian (Romans 14:7-8, "none"), and Romans 2:8 would be fulfilled even upon them (Ezekiel 3:20; 33:12-13; See our report on Eternal Security for more info).

VI. Denies James 4:4
Consistent with all of the above is Warren's denial of James 4:4. On page 297 in his Purpose-Driven Death book Warren writes,
You have a choice to make. You will be either a world-class Christian or a worldly Christian.
Worldly Christians look to God primarily for personal fulfillment. They are saved, but self-centered. They love to attend concerts and enrichment seminars, but you would never find them at a missions conference because they aren't interested. Their prayers focus on their needs, blessings, and happiness. It's a "me-first" faith: How can God make my life more comfortable? They want to use God for their purposes instead of being used for his purposes.
James 4:4 says,
Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
James declares even a simple desire to be a friend of the world makes one an enemy of God. Warren speaks of a "Christian" who is downright worldly. In either case, both the "Christian" who simply desires to be a friend of the world, or the "Christian" who is a friend of the world (i.e. worldly), both are an enemy of God. They are in no way saved, for this is what God has to say about His enemies:
Your hand will find all Your enemies; Your right hand will find those who hate You. You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger; the Lord shall swallow them up in His wrath, and the fire shall devour them. (Psalm 21:8-9)
For behold, Your enemies, O Lord, for behold, Your enemies shall perish. (Psalm 92:9)
The Lord reigns; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad! Clouds and darkness surround Him; righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne. A fire goes before Him, and burns up His enemies round about. (Psalm 97:1-3; see also Deuteronomy 32:41-42; Isaiah 1:24; 42:13; 59:18; 66:6, 14)

VII. Denies 1 Timothy 4:1-3
In The Purpose-Driven Life Warren reveals that he does not believe Catholics have departed from the faith, give heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, and speak lies in hypocrisy (1 Timothy 4:1-3). He quotes Catholics as if they were in the faith. For example, on page 88 Warren writes,
The classic book on learning how to develop a constant conversation with God is Practicing the Presence of God. It was written in the seventeenth century by Brother Lawrence, a humble cook in a French monastery. Brother Lawrence was able to turn even the most commonplace and menial tasks, like preparing meals and washing dishes, into acts of praise and communion with God.
So Warren describes this Catholic (www.catholicapologetics.0catch.com), who according to God was involved with demons (1 Timothy 4:1-3), as one who had communion with God. Paul said,
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons. (1 Corinthians 1:21)
There is no way this man was anything but a liar and a wicked man with demons in his life (1 Timothy 4:1-3). Yet Warren recommends his book. Why? Because Warren rejects 1 Timothy 4:1-3 (as well as 2 John 9, etc.).

In this same book, Warren cites "St. John of the Cross" (a Catholic, p. 108), Madame Guyon (a Catholic mystic, p. 193), and Mother Teresa (p. 125, 231). It is apparent Warren has no problem with those who are not in the faith and are involved with demons. Of course, this fits well with Warren since he follows the worldly wisdom of the AA 12 step approach in dealing with sin in his Celebrate Recovery program.

VIII. Denies The Gospel

The 12 step approach came from another man involved with demons, Bill Wilson (see Pass It On, p. 275f). Baker in his testimony notes,
The Christ-centered 12 steps are included because so many of those attending Celebrate Recovery have come from a 12 step background. You will see how the 12 steps fit and are covered by Celebrate Recovery's Eight Recovery Principles, based on the Beatitudes. (www.celebraterecovery.com/johnb.asp, hard copy on file)

Baker lies in hypocrisy when he says it is "Christ-centered," because the very fact that they feel they need 12 steps (or 8 steps) to go through to overcome the power of addictive sin proves it is not only not Christ-centered, but it is a rejection of Christ. If it was Christ-centered it (Celebrate Recovery) would not exist, because it would not be needed; because Christ would have already set free (John 8:31-34) all who come to Him (John 1:12-13).
Celebrate Recovery is another gospel, and Warren, Baker, and all who promote such a thing are to be cursed because of it (Galatians 1:8-9).

IX. Denies True Humility

On page 148 of Warren's death book, after quoting Philippians 2:3-4, he writes,
Humility is not thinking less of yourself; it is thinking of yourself less. (ibid., p. 148)
Warren speaks directly against the very words he quotes. Warren quotes out of the NCV in which it says,
Give more honor to others than to yourselves.
The KJV reads, "In but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves." Giving more honor to others than to yourself and esteeming others better than yourself is certainly thinking less of yourself. Warren perverts what humility is and diverts people away from it. His warped view of humility is further displayed when he writes,
Humble people are so focused on serving others, they don't think of themselves. (ibid.)

This also is a lie, since the very verse Warren quotes states,
"Do not be interested only in your own life, but be interested in the lives of others". (NCV)

In other words, you can be interested in your own life, just don't be interested only in your own life."

This perverted teaching on humility goes well (for deceiving people) with his self-worth teaching. On page 63 of The Purpose-Driven Life Warren promotes self-worth. He writes,
Bringing enjoyment to God, living for his pleasure, is the first purpose of your life. When you fully understand this truth, you will never again have a problem with feeling insignificant. It proves your worth. (bold added)
This is a lie. Anyone given the awesome privilege to bring enjoyment to God (e.g. Proverbs 15:8; 2 Corinthians 5:9) should realize any such privilege is totally by God's grace (Ephesians 2:8-10) and has nothing to do with them (Romans 9:11-22). It has nothing to do with any worth. It has everything to do with God's great mercy and kindness to undeserving unworthy sinners (Romans 5:8-10).

Someone may argue, "But Warren speaks of the worth God places upon a person, as Warren writes immediately after this:

If you are that important to God, and he considers you valuable enough to keep with him for eternity, what greater significance could you have?"

What about the people God has chosen to spend eternity in hell (Proverbs 16:4)? Are they worth less to God? Are they worthless? Are they insignificant? Does not the Scripture say, "For God so loved the world . . . " (John 3:16)? Are the elect somehow worth more?

When it comes to salvation, this whole "worth" and "significance" push by Warren is not found anywhere in Scripture, but what is found is the fact that God chooses people for salvation completely apart from anything to do with them. Election, salvation, is according to "the purpose of God," not some worth factor (Romans 9:11-23).

Warren's teaching gets people to focus on themselves (your worth, your significance), and Scripture gets people to focus on God, and His great love toward mankind (Ephesians 2:4). Warren's teaching is perverted, and encourages people away from true humility. Scripture is not perverted, and encourages people toward real humility, as it is written,
Lord, what is man, that thou takest knowledge of him! or the son of man, that thou makest account of him! Man is like to vanity: his days are as a shadow that passeth away.. (Psalm 144:3-4)
Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing. (Isaiah 40:15)
All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity. (Isaiah 40:17)
With Isaiah 40:15-17 in view, it should be clear that the value God places upon men (e.g. Matthew 6:26; 10:31; Luke 12:7, 24) is a matter of God's mercy and kindness and has nothing to do with man's "significance." As David wrote, “my goodness extendeth not to thee;” (Psalm 16:2)

In conclusion, Rick Warren is a false teacher. This is my conclusion, based upon Rick Warrens own words, in his own book the “Purpose Driven Life” as compared to God's Word, the standard, the Bible! He is also a Pied Piper, leading millions of other dear baby Christians, who have been deceived by him, right into the lake of fire. [/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter


ChrisJD wrote:
HI everyone,


Waltern, you said this,


"Believers should test the spirits behind a person’s action to see if the action brings glory to God."

You have been confronted on these formus by moderators and other users mulitple times about this same thing, including this thread.


What has been your response?

You also wrote,

'Bad Judgment Statement: “You are going to hell because of what you do.”'

And then you finished what you wrote by saying,


"He is also a Pied Piper, leading millions of other dear baby Christians, who have been deceived by him, right into the lake of fire."

S
sermonindex

I'd just like to say something of why I myself would post to threads of this nature.

Last Spring, when Todd Bentley was doing his thing in FL, I was on another forum where most of the members were exposing the truth behind the man and because of that, it made it into all the Search engines and many came onto that forum to either get help or argue - yet most who came on to argue - later found that they had been deceived by the man.

I seldom get into these type things unless the person being discussed is worth the slam-dunks one gets from exposing them. Bentley was worth the ribbing we took, to pull the batch we did out of that deception and the only other that I've known that is worth my time and whatever else goes into this is Warren.

I've seen Pastors change their mind about him once they did the research and many others realize the danger of following a man who's theology is off and the direction of his work is headed them down a path that they never imagined.

I believe these are the last days and the most dangerous will be the most cunning.

There is no excuse to not Research for one's self.
When anyone says something that I question - I open the Search Page and type in a few words and I have everything I could ever read to either confirm it or debunk it. I have little respect for those who mock others without researching the topic themselves - unless they are very young and need to be taken by the hand.

I have more respect for men that are a bit more on the cautious side with the sheep than those that allow "anything to go" just to keep numbers.

I expect to be protected by men as a woman!

C
ChrisJD

HI Waltern,


About this,


'Well, here we are again. Please provide something other than your own opinion on this issue that supports your position that no “Christians” should ever be examined by other Christains, to see if they are truly what they proclaim to be--"Christian Believers"”'


Walter, I didn't say anything like that.

You are here teaching about the nescessity of Christians judging and examining other Christians.


You have been, and continue to be, judged and examined by the believers on this forum regarding your posts here and I asked you what your response has been.



Here you go, one more time. Lets see how you respond to God’s Word, to God’s Requirement. If you do not agree with Scripture, then please post from whatever authority you rely on, other than God’s Word—and not just your own personal opinion, in regards to this issue:

This was not nescessary, but it [b]underscores[/b] what so many have been saying to you for so long now.

S
sermonindex


To ChrisJd:

I receive negative responses to my posts from "liberal" Christians. "Conservative" Christians are those that support the majority of my positions, the majority of my posts.

Of course, this dichotomy has been in play since the beginning.


Sincerely,

Walter


ChrisJD wrote:
HI Waltern,


About this,


'Well, here we are again. Please provide something other than your own opinion on this issue that supports your position that no “Christians” should ever be examined by other Christains, to see if they are truly what they proclaim to be--"Christian Believers"”'


Walter, I didn't say anything like that.

You are here teaching about the nescessity of Christians judging and examining other Christians.


You have been, and continue to be, judged and examined by the believers on this forum regarding your posts here and I asked you what your response has been.



Here you go, one more time. Lets see how you respond to God’s Word, to God’s Requirement. If you do not agree with Scripture, then please post from whatever authority you rely on, other than God’s Word—and not just your own personal opinion, in regards to this issue:

This was not nescessary, but it [b]underscores[/b] what so many have been saying to you for so long now.

C
ChrisJD

Hi again everyone.


Waltern,


"I receive negative responses to my posts from "liberal" Christians. "Conservative" Christians are those that support the majority of my positions, the majority of my posts."

I don't think that the content of your posts has been at issue for the most part, but rather the character of them, and the way you communicate to others. This has nothing to do with being conservative or liberal.



Of course, this dichotomy has been in play since the beginning.


The assumption that comes across in this statement is that you are right in what you believe and have no need of correction, as much as the Bible is right, and those that appear to oppose you are aligned with Satan.

This is much of what I recall others, including a moderator of these forums question you on, that is, your being above correction and not recieving it or hearing it from others:


"The way of a fool [i]is[/i] right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel [i]is[/i] wise."


- Proverbs 12:15(KJV)

Another thing that I recall others challenging you about often is humility, or the lack of it that they percieve in your posts.

"Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised [i]is[/i] wisdom."


- Proverbs 13:10(KJV)

Another thing that I recall is a rashness in the statements that you make about others, without first asking them to clarify what they mean:

In this thread, you said to me

'Well, here we are again. Please provide something other than your own opinion on this issue that supports your position that no “Christians” should ever be examined by other Christains, to see if they are truly what they proclaim to be--"Christian Believers'


Yet I gave neither an opinion nor contradicted what you said but qouted you. Not only was this rash it was incoherent, and not sound(Tit 2:8).

Again, Waltern, you said before,


"Believers should test the spirits behind a person’s action to see if the action brings glory to God."

You have been, and continue to be, judged and examined by other believers on these forums as to the way you are communicating to them.


What has been your response?

R
roaringlamb

I receive negative responses to my posts from "liberal" Christians.

WOW!

So a liberal Christian is not "worthy" of your love and grace? Remember brother "love covers a MULTITUDE of sins", and if a Christian is your brother or sister, are they not worthy of love and grace or can you write them off because they don't measure up to your ideals(as if you are the Judge)?

Do you pray for Brother Warren? and yes I call him a brother because he names Christ, the other things are not salvation issues, they are secondary.

Let me ask you this, what difference does it make if Warren does what he does? Can you stop him?

Has the Lord allowed him to do what he is doing? If so, then lay off and let the Lord deal with him. You and I are not the Lord, we don't know what is going on in his(Warren's) heart, and again as I said before, I am not endorsing Warren at all. But I get sick of the paranoia and fear tactics used to disgrace men.

It is His Church and the gates of Hell WILL NOT prevail against it. Don't forget that as many seem to quite often.

Trust me if Warren can destroy the Church, then we have bigger issues to deal with.

You may take issue with Warren's way of doing things and that is fine(I do too), but attack his theology, not him. And yes as one who holds to what is termed Calvinism, I would question many of Warren's theological beliefs, but NEVER to the point of casting him into hell, which is not for us to do.

S
sermonindex


If you find out that Rick Warren is helping to set up the one world religion - would that cause you to still call him Brother and come against those who are trying to warn Christians?

On page 1 I posted -

Rick Warren sits on the Advisory Board of the Tony Blair Faith Foundation.
http://www.tonyblairfaithfoundation.org/about-us/who-we-are/advisory-council.html


I have more links than a page will fit on Warren's Soteriology, Eschatology, Prop 8, Dominionism, you name it - but I'll just ask if you'll look down this one page, at just the titles and see how many times you see Tony Blair's name.

http://www.understandthetimes.org/topics/oneworldreligion.shtml

[Roger Oakland is one who visited or may still visit Costa Mesa CC whenever he is in that area - so he is a friendly kinda guy.]


Thanks!

L
Leo_Grace

Getting back to the topic of this thread, I believe Walter's assessment of Rick Warren's teaching is correct in the light of Scripture.

Warren's teaching gets people to focus on themselves (your worth, your significance), and Scripture gets people to focus on God, and His great love toward mankind (Ephesians 2:4). Warren's teaching is perverted, and encourages people away from true humility. Scripture is not perverted, and encourages people toward real humility, as it is written, Lord, what is man, that thou takest knowledge of him! or the son of man, that thou makest account of him! Man is like to vanity: his days are as a shadow that passeth away.. (Psalm 144:3)

[b]However, this misdirection from God-centeredness to man-centeredness is not a new problem. It is something that has been around for sometime and actually predates the very birth of Rick Warren.[/b]

As evidence of this, I paste below two things that we see at the top of the SI page every time we visit the forum:

[b]Become a Pastor
With an Online Pastoral Degree.[/b]
Study Online, in your spare time.

Ministry Classes Online
[b]Become a Master of Divinity from an Accredited College.[/b] Learn more!

[b]It seems pastors and men of divine character have been "man-made" for a long time now.[/b]

R
roaringlamb

Roger Oakland

I am sorry, but that alone was reason for me not to read it. He and Dave Hunt both seem to enjoy misrepresenting people or misquoting people to get their points across.

Come on people. Take a deep breath, and just ask yourself this question-

How does this affect me and my walk with the Lord? Then go from that wonderful state of peace from the Lord and live your life.

Let Roger Oakland and Dave Hunt and the others who fear monger and accuse and misrepresent people find their boogeymen and hidden meanings to everything, but remember this one thing, "God HAS NOT given us a spirit of fear".

Preach the Gospel and do what you can in your area, and let the Lord handle His Church. Correct those in your local Church if you must, but do it in love and grace, not from pride or arrogance.

S
sermonindex

To Roaringlamb:

You evidently have no understanding about what the term "Liberal Christianity" means, do you?

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Christianity]Liberal Christianity[/url]

This might help you---from Wikipedia:

Liberal Christianity
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[b]For liberal political views within Christianity, see Christian left. For liberal social views within Christianity, see Progressive Christianity. For the particular intra-ecclesiastical form of theological Modernism considered heresy by the Roman Catholic Church, see Modernism (Roman Catholicism).[/b]

[b]Liberal Christianity
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/b]

Liberal Christianity, sometimes called liberal theology, is an umbrella term covering diverse, philosophically informed religious movements and ideas within Christianity from the late 18th century and onwards. The word "liberal" in liberal Christianity does not refer to a progressive political agenda or set of beliefs, but rather to the manner of thought and belief associated with the philosophical and religious paradigms developed during the Age of Enlightenment.

Contributions to biblical hermeneutics
The theology of liberal Christianity was prominent in the biblical criticism of the 19th and 20th centuries. The style of scriptural hermeneutics within liberal theology is often characterized as non-propositional. This means that the Bible is not considered a collection of factual statements but instead documents the human authors' beliefs and feelings about God at the time of its writing—within a historic/cultural context. Thus, liberal Christian theologians do not claim to discover truth propositions but rather create religious models and concepts that reflect the class, gender, social, and political contexts from which they emerge. Liberal Christianity looks upon the Bible as a collection of narratives that explain, epitomize, or symbolize the essence and significance of Christian understanding.[1]

[b]Liberal Christian beliefs[/b]

Liberal Christianity, broadly speaking, is a method of biblical hermeneutics, an individualistic method of understanding God through the use of scripture by applying the same modern hermeneutics used to understand any ancient writings. Liberal Christianity does not claim to be a belief structure, and as such is not dependent upon any Church dogma or creedal statements. Unlike conservative varieties of Christianity, it has no unified set of propositional beliefs. The word liberal in liberal Christianity denotes a characteristic willingness to interpret scripture without any preconceived notion of inerrancy of scripture or the correctness of Church dogma.[2] A liberal Christian, however, may hold certain beliefs in common with traditional, orthodox, or even conservative Christianity.

[b] Influence of liberal Christianity[/b]

Liberal Christianity was most influential with mainline Protestant churches in the early 20th century, when proponents believed the changes it would bring would be the future of the Christian church. Despite that optimism, its influence in mainline churches waned in the wake of World War II, as the more conservative, yet radical, alternative of neo-orthodoxy (and later postliberalism) began to supplant the earlier modernism. Other subsequent theological movements within the Protestant mainline included political liberation theology, philosophical forms of postmodern Christianity such as Christian existentialism, and conservative movements such as neo-evangelicalism and paleo-orthodoxy.
However, the 1990s and early 2000s saw a resurgence of non-doctrinal, scholarly work on biblical exegesis and theology, exemplified by figures such as Marcus Borg, John Dominic Crossan, John Shelby Spong, Alexander Zelitchenko and Douglas Ottati. Their appeal, like that of the earlier modernism, also is primarily found in the mainline denominations.
Liberal Christian theologians and authors
Anglican and Protestant

[b]•Friedrich Daniel Ernst Schleiermacher (1768–1834), often called the "father of liberal theology," he claimed that religious experience was introspective, and that the truest understanding of God consisted of "a sense of absolute dependence".

•William Ellery Channing (1780–1842), pioneering liberal theologian in the USA, who criticized the doctrine of the Trinity and the strength of scriptural authority, in favor of more rationalistic and historical-critical beliefs.

• Henry Ward Beecher (1813–1887), US preacher who left behind the Calvinist orthodoxy of his famous father, the Reverend Lyman Beecher, to popularize liberal Christianity.

• Adolf von Harnack, (1851–1930), German theologian and church historian, promoted the Social Gospel.

• Charles Fillmore (1854–1948). Emerson-influenced Christian mystic and co-founder (with his wife, Myrtle Fillmore) of the Unity Church.

• Harry Emerson Fosdick (1878–1969), Baptist founding pastor of New York's Riverside Church in 1922.

• Rudolf Bultmann (1884–1976), German biblical scholar.

• Paul Tillich (1886–1965), synthesized Protestant Christian theology with existential philosophy

• Leslie Weatherhead (1893–1976), English preacher, and author of The Will of God and The Christian Agnostic

• Lloyd Geering (1918–), Prominent New Zealand theologian.

• John A.T. Robinson (1919–1983), Bishop of Woolwich, author of Honest to God.

• John Hick (b. 1922) British philosopher of religion and theologian.

• William Sloane Coffin (1924–2006), Senior Minister at the Riverside Church in New York City, and President of SANE/Freeze (now Peace Action).

• John Shelby Spong (1931–), Episcopal bishop and author.

• Richard Holloway (1933-), Bishop of Edinburgh 1986-2000.

• Keith Ward (b. 1938) British Anglican cleric, philosopher, theologian, and scholar.

• Matthew Fox (priest) (b. 1940) an American Episcopalian priest and theologian.

• Marcus Borg (b. 1942) American Biblical scholar and author.

•Scotty McLennan (b. 1948), author of Jesus Was A Liberal, Dean for Religious Life at Stanford University, Minister of Stanford Memorial Church, and inspiration for the Reverend Scot Sloan character in the comic strip Doonesbury by Gary Trudeau.

• Douglas Ottati, Presbyterian theologian and author, former professor at Union-PSCE, current professor at Davidson College, and author of numerous apologetic works of liberal theology.[/b]

Roman Catholic

•Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (1881–1955), a French Jesuit, also trained as a paleontologist; works condemned by the Holy Office in 1962. The condemnation was formally reaffirmed in 1981 but many theologians still refer to his writings, including Pope Benedict XVI.

•Yves Congar (1904–1995), French Dominican ecumenical theologian.

•Edward Schillebeeckx, (b. 1914) Belgian Dominican theologian.

•Hans Küng, (b. 1928) Swiss theologian. Had his licence to teach Catholic theology revoked in 1979 because of his rejection of the doctrine of the infallibility of the Church, but retained his faculties to say the Mass.

•John Dominic Crossan, (b. 1934) ex-priest, New Testament scholar, co-founder of the Jesus Seminar.

•Joan Chittister, (b. 1936) OSB, a lecturer and social psychologist.

•Leonardo Boff, (b. 1938) Brazilian, ex-Franciscan, ex-priest, cofounder of Liberation theology.

References

1.\t^ Montgomery, John Warwick. In Defense of Martin Luther. Milwaukee: Northwestern, 1970, p. 57. “Luther’s Hermeneutic vs. the New Hermeneutic.” Quoted in http://www.wlsessays.net/authors/W/WestphalConfession/WestphalConfession.PDF

2.\t^ "Catholic Encyclopedia: Liberalism". http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09212a.htm
Retrieved 2007-01-27.

See also
•\tChristian left
•\tBiblical hermeneutics
•\tChristian anarchism
•\tChristian democracy
•\tChristian existentialism
•\tChristian feminism
•\tChristian socialism
•\tChristian universalism
•\tEvangelical left
•\tFountain Street Church
•\tFree Christianity
•\tJesus Seminar
•\tLiberation theology
•\tNarrative theology
•\tPostmodern Christianity
•\tProcess theology
•\tProgressive Christianity
•\tQueer theology
•\tSecular theology
•\tSocial Gospel


Sincerely,

Walter



roaringlamb wrote:
I receive negative responses to my posts from "liberal" Christians.

WOW!

So a liberal Christian is not "worthy" of your love and grace? Remember brother "love covers a MULTITUDE of sins", and if a Christian is your brother or sister, are they not worthy of love and grace or can you write them off because they don't measure up to your ideals(as if you are the Judge)?

Do you pray for Brother Warren? and yes I call him a brother because he names Christ, the other things are not salvation issues, they are secondary.

Let me ask you this, what difference does it make if Warren does what he does? Can you stop him?

Has the Lord allowed him to do what he is doing? If so, then lay off and let the Lord deal with him. You and I are not the Lord, we don't know what is going on in his(Warren's) heart, and again as I said before, I am not endorsing Warren at all. But I get sick of the paranoia and fear tactics used to disgrace men.

It is His Church and the gates of Hell WILL NOT prevail against it. Don't forget that as many seem to quite often.

Trust me if Warren can destroy the Church, then we have bigger issues to deal with.

You may take issue with Warren's way of doing things and that is fine(I do too), but attack his theology, not him. And yes as one who holds to what is termed Calvinism, I would question many of Warren's theological beliefs, but NEVER to the point of casting him into hell, which is not for us to do.

R
roaringlamb

God-centeredness to man-centeredness

I think I understand how you mean this, but as human beings, we do have significant worth. So much so that God Himself became a man and died to redeem people. Even lost people are made in the image and likeness of God(no matter how marred that becomes through sin).

Let me post some quotes here and get your take on them-
"A preacher's greatest tool is MEMORIZED Scripture. If it's stored in your mind,the Spirit can remind you when you need it.

The only place in the universe you find atheists is on earth.God lets you deny him your entire life,but then he'll deny you.Heb.9:27"

Does that sound like a man who is a heretic? Those were just from a couple days ago by Brother Warren.

Again, I may not agree with everything he does, but I'm fairly sure that he will receive his reward based on his profession of faith in what Christ has done for him.

I don't know too many pastors who give back something like 10 years of salary and 90 percent of their income to their church, do you?

R
roaringlamb

You evidently have no understanding about what the term "Liberal Christianity" means, do you?

Gee thanks, I don't know where I would be without you. Thank you for condescending to my low knowledge.

Of course I knew what you Liberal Christianity was, but you wrote it in a way that made it seem like anyone(on here) who disagrees with you is "liberal" as if you have the corner on truth(I doubt it, but if you do, what do you have that you have not been given, and if it was given to you, why do you boast?)

Have you ever talked to Rick Warren? I haven't, but, it would be fun, and I'm sure there could be some things I could learn from him. He's not the enemy, "we wrestle not with flesh and blood".

Pretty soon you'll be telling me that Obama is the antichrist, and that he and Warren are forming an alliance with the Illuminati, the CFR, and every other organization to overthrow Christianity, and the Church will perish, or we'll be whisked away so we don't have to endure any suffering.

But once more, Christ has promised that the Church will not be destroyed, and that we are not to be afraid. The righteous are bold as lions, but the wicked flee when none pursues.

S
sermonindex


Quote:

[b] Sun, Jan. 08, 2006, in the Philadelphia Inquirer

[i]Warren predicts that fundamentalism, of all varieties, will be 'one of the big enemies of the 21st century.

"Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, secular fundamentalism - they're all motivated by fear. Fear of each other.'"[/i][/b]


This fundalmentalist is going to bed.
Good night dear Christian Brothers.

A
anonymity

Walter,

earlier I wrote asking can you please share solid reason why Warren is a total and absolute Satanic minister.

I have read through your first post.

The reason I ask a question like I first did. Is that first I would like to know the truth for I may not have studied as in depth as other on the man. Also, there are often times accusation made about men that are somewhat based on conspiracy that is made on small things which are really guesses and based and fueled by immaturity, personal inconsistencies, or just being over zealous with a lack of knowledge or just scared and emotive and a little too suspicious.

Now, I do believe myself fair in judging and discerning things Biblically and reasonably. I have to say in humility and without a poisoned heart or bad attitude that you reasoning is very off. There have been claims here that were made on very "silly" things. I will briefly try to respond. And, really, I think that these are "far" from any sort of strengthful argument. Just very unreasonable and extreme.

S
sermonindex

To roaringlamb:

Let me define these two words from Dictionary.com.

Liberal-
1.\t• Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
2.\tFavoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
3.\tOf, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
4.\tLiberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.


Bigot-

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.


Can you see why we have such difficulty in communicating?

I am a conservative Christian. You sir, are a Liberal Christian. I have no problem in calling you a liberal, however you never refer to me as a conservative, do you?


Sincererly,


Walter


roaringlamb wrote:
You evidently have no understanding about what the term "Liberal Christianity" means, do you?

Gee thanks, I don't know where I would be without you. Thank you for condescending to my low knowledge.

Of course I knew what you Liberal Christianity was, but you wrote it in a way that made it seem like anyone(on here) who disagrees with you is "liberal" as if you have the corner on truth(I doubt it, but if you do, what do you have that you have not been given, and if it was given to you, why do you boast?)

Have you ever talked to Rick Warren? I haven't, but, it would be fun, and I'm sure there could be some things I could learn from him. He's not the enemy, "we wrestle not with flesh and blood".

Pretty soon you'll be telling me that Obama is the antichrist, and that he and Warren are forming an alliance with the Illuminati, the CFR, and every other organization to overthrow Christianity, and the Church will perish, or we'll be whisked away so we don't have to endure any suffering.

But once more, Christ has promised that the Church will not be destroyed, and that we are not to be afraid. The righteous are bold as lions, but the wicked flee when none pursues.

S
sermonindex

To Annonymity:

Please, take the time to read my first post (if you are truly interested). It is full of SCRIPTURE THAT SUPPORTS MY POSITION. I have posted it twice.

Also, this is one of Rick Warrens statements:

[color=990000][b]Warren predicts that fundamentalism, of all varieties, will be 'one of the big enemies of the 21st century.

"Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, secular fundamentalism - they're all motivated by fear. Fear of each other.'[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter


anonymity wrote:
Walter,

earlier I wrote asking can you please share solid reason why Warren is a total and absolute Satanic minister.

I have read through your first post.

DELETED


A
anonymity

Christians judge:
Yes I agree Christians should judge.

Denies Holy Spirit, Jesus, power of godliness, Gospel, ect:
Just because he says that we need each other and get power from each other does not mean that he is saying we do not get power from the other. It is true that alone without the body we could not survive. Both the Gospel and saints are essential. As it says in Hebrew we should not forsake the assembling of ourselves and need to encourage each other. As a body each part needs the other we have been given gifts to minister to one another. God works in us and then God works through us to each other.

Denies fear of God, wrath of God, James 4, Timothy 4, true humility, Catholics, ect:
I am not saying the guy is perfect or really great in all his doctrine. My question is can he be proven to be an absolute Satanic non Christian minister. I believe that many great men of God and many men of God have errors. I am not sure if he is totally rejecting these doctrines as much as he is emphasizing the others. It is true that the mercy of God and other things are lacking. Also, on the other side you are going to the other extreme in saying that man should not believe he has any worth. I don't want to respond to all as it would take a long time, but I think they are extreme and not solid at all. As for Catholics that is a hard topic and there are some saved there. There are Catholic resources on here. I am persuaded to a degree that there were individuals in the Catholic institution that were saved.


So concluding, there have been no solid proofs here. If you have some I am open to hearing them, but as of yet have not seen any thus far.

Think of Billy Graham. He has some error in his doctrine, yet I still think him to be a Christian. He has been accused of many of the things here cited. Much of it is true, but much of it is extreme. Many Christians are weak. To sit on a side walk in front of a Church is not always the way to go. Or to sit and write articles of how this and that person is wrong should not always be our emphasis. One thing that really should be our emphasis is giving to the Church not just trying to take down ministers we believe to be in error. If we had more life and more power many Christians would not flock to error. When Paul spoke to the Church of blowing with every wind of doctrine he did not call them apostate, but exhorted them to grow. What we really need is revival. We should spend most of our time trying to get right instead of trying to take down other that are wrong. First pulling the plank out of our eye. And then instead of tearing those ministers down we should seek to build them up and go the right way. Much of the reason there is compromise is because Christians cannot find power in God and so find it in false things. We need to get power in God and show that God is sufficient. The Harvest Crusade is much based after the model that Billy Graham has set in bringing many Churches together and preaching the love of God more so. Is this perfect or great eh. Is it totally wrong with no good at all eh.

So please try and bring me something legitimate. And until then our main focus needs to be on ourselves and getting right with God. Many of us conservatives who know intellectually what is right have yet to step into the fullness of God like the Church in China ofr Hudson Taylor or other. We ought to be broken on our faces with weeping. This is the greatest error! That we have yet to walk in the fullness of Christ and yet instead though we have little life to give we try to take others down and focus on the apostasy of our time instead of bring a remedy we just point out what is wrong.

p.s. I did read your post

R
roaringlamb

Can you see why we have such difficulty in communicating?
You sir, are a Liberal Christian

I have to admit, that is the first time I have been called liberal, thanks for the laugh.

I'd have to disagree with you about that as most of the theological convictions I have stem from the time of the Reformation, and last I looked, not a whole lot of liberals enjoy the narrowness of the Gospel.

If you'd like to, we can talk Liberal theology as I have had to discuss it much with people in this area.

I think what makes it hard to understand you is that you are yelling so loud(by your arrogance and pride) that I can't hear what you're saying. It's ok, I've been there too, and the Lord graciously has chastened me and removed some of it.

Of course, I know the next answer you will give will have something to do with the fact that I think you're arrogant because I just don't get the truth you are speaking. Oh and I'm sure you feel that if only people were just like you, then the Church would be safe. But guess what God made one of you and one of me, and we can disagree about this because it has NO bearing on our standing as Christians. We are after all justified by faith, not anything else.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Jesus-is-God,


Jesus-is-GOD wrote:

Quote:

[b] Sun, Jan. 08, 2006, in the Philadelphia Inquirer

[i]Warren predicts that fundamentalism, of all varieties, will be 'one of the big enemies of the 21st century.

"Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, secular fundamentalism - they're all motivated by fear. Fear of each other.'"[/i][/b]


Do you have a source for link for this? I looked up the first phrase, and I found that exact quote (using parentheses via Google) at about 50 websites...but NOT at a Philadelphia Inquirer website. Did you read this in the Philadelphia Inquirer...or did you read this somewhere else?

Again, I am not trying to defend any of Rick Warren's doctrinal views (because I disagree with many of them). However, I can't help but wonder if some of this borders on conspiracy-theory laden hysteria. For these sort of allegations (or even for clarity -- in case a newspaper actually reported it...and reported it incorrectly), I think that it would be wise to actually contact the man and see if this is what he REALLY believes (if you think that it matters enough to repeat it and spread it to others).

S
sermonindex


Roger Oakland has much to say about Rick Warren and his "inclusive" Salvation message.

This has been posted before. You did not see it?

The Purpose Driven Inclusive Church
Commentary by Roger Oakland
www.understandthetimes.org

Link:

[url=http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c57.shtml]Understand the Times International[/url]


Pastor Rick Warren has a plan to establish the Kingdom of God here on earth. It is an ambitious plan called the P. E. A. C. E. Plan. This acronym stands for Planting churches, Equipping leaders, Assisting the poor, Caring for the sick, Educating the next generation.

[b]While political leaders and economic leaders from around the world have previously discussed similar social programs in order to bring utopia to planet earth, until now they have failed. Pastor Rick believes he has uncovered the missing component for success—it’s called the “inclusive church”.

The “inclusive church” is the third leg of Pastor Warren’s “three-legged-stool” But what does he mean by the “inclusive church”?

To answer this specific question, here is what Pastor Rick stated in an interview with Charlie Rose regarding who can be part of this “church” program that is supposed to establish the PEACE Plan:[/b]

[color=990000][b]When I go out and I start telling people, “Do you want to work with us on poverty, disease, AIDS, illiteracy, injustice?” I often find people are more unwilling to work with us than we are willing to work with them. In other words, we’re saying, “You don’t have to change your beliefs for us to work with you.” If you can only work with people that you agree with, then most of the world, you’re ruling out. Okay. I don’t insist that a Moslem change his belief for me to work on poverty. I don’t even insist that a gay person has to change their beliefs. They’re not going to accept my belief, or I’m not going to accept theirs. [1]

Notice what Pastor Rick stated: “you don’t have to change your beliefs” to be a part of this “inclusive church.” Muslims are even welcome to join. So are others who do not take the Bible literally regarding who Jesus is and what He has done. All that is required is a common cause.

Now, one more quote from the Charlie Rose interview that will make the point. Warren stated:[/color][/b]

I just met with the president, the co-founder of ACT-UP— Eric Sawyer. And I said, “Eric, how can I help you get your message (out)? I know you care about people who are dying. How can I help you get your message out?” He said, “Use your moral authority.” I’m working with these guys. [2]

So the “inclusive church” according to Pastor Rick is a “church” that includes a broad spectrum of believers with a common cause. In fact the term “believer” in Warren’s sense, needs to be redefined.

[color=990000][b]Usually in the context of Christianity, a “believer” is a believer in Jesus Christ and the gospel of Jesus Christ. Not so with Pastor Rick Warren’s definition. A believer is someone who is like-minded and willing to be part of his PEACE Plan team.

Kingdom Building with Roman Catholics

In his interview with Charlie Rose, Pastor Warren was asked whether or not he was willing to work together with Roman Catholics to establish his P.E.A.C.E. Plan. Warren responded:

Christianity is a global movement. In fact, Christianity was global 200 years before anybody started talking about globalism. It is the only global organization in the world. There are 2.3 billion Christians in the world. [3]

Further, Pastor Rick expounded how he believes a global organization could be established as a global force that could implement a global P.E.A.C.E. Plan. He stated:

Probably 600 million of them, I believe, are Catholic. And so when you take all of these together, it is the largest network in the world. In just the network that I’m in, I have been training leaders for 26 years. And we’ve trained about 400,000 pastors in 163 countries, all different denominations. Well, this network of 400,000 pastors, that’s just a small, tiny network compared to Christianity around the world. [4]

In order to clarify the ecumenical nature of the P.E.A.C.E. Plan, another statement made by Pastor Rick Warren will be helpful. At the PEW Forum held in Key West, Florida in July of 2005, he said:

Now when you get 25 percent of America, which is basically Catholic, and you get 28 to 29 percent of America which is evangelical together, that's called a majority. And it is a very powerful bloc, if they happen to stay together on particular issues… I would encourage you to look at this evolving alliance between evangelical Protestants and Catholics. [5]

Therefore, it will be interesting to see what happens in the future. Will this “evolving alliance” between Roman Catholics and Protestants become even more and more inclusive as time passes?

How Inclusive Can Inclusive Be?

Everyone, with any common sense would like to see a planet without poverty, disease and illiteracy. I thank God for all the Christian and non-Christian organizations that are working to make this planet a better place.

However, there is a major concern that arises when we link good works with our view of the future of planet earth. If man has a plan to establish God’s Kingdom here on earth by human effort, where is that plan in God’s Word?

There is another thing that sincere Kingdom builders should consider. Can the Kingdom of God be established by those who don’t know the King? In other words, can people of all religions and faiths who don’t know that Jesus is the King be members of His Kingdom?

This is one of the reasons I want to express some concerns about the Purpose Driven P.E.A.C.E. Plan. Before he came up with the P.E.A.C.E. Plan, Pastor Rick Warren says that he asked Jesus to show him how to reach the world. According to Warren:

Then I said, “How did You do it? You wouldn’t have left us without a strategy.” And I found the answer in a passage in Matthew 10 and Luke 10 where Jesus sends His first followers out… He says, “When you go into a village, you find the man of peace.” Find the man of peace. There’s a man of peace in every village, in every government, in every business, in every church. [6]

Notice the basis of the P.E.A.C.E. Plan is a peace man. But there is more. Warren further inquired of Jesus and Jesus supposedly answered:

And so I said, “What is the man of peace?” He said, “When you find the man of peace, if he’s open and he’s willing to work with you, you bless him and you start your work there. If the guy’s not open to working with you, you dust the dust off of your shoes and you go to the next villages, ‘cause you can always find someone to work with.” The man of peace is open and influential.

By the way, it doesn’t have to be a man. It could be a woman. It might be the woman of peace. It might be the elderly grandmother of the village and everybody knows. And here’s the other thing: The man of peace does not have to be a Christian believer. It could be Moslem. It could be Jewish. Because, when Jesus said, “Find the man of peace,” there were no Christians yet. Jesus hadn’t died on the cross. There was no resurrection. He’s just saying, go out and find somebody to work with. [7]

While Pastor Warren believes that his plan to establish the Kingdom of God here on earth was inspired by a conversation with Jesus, it would be important to check out the words of Jesus as recorded in the Scriptures.

Do you recall one of the things that Jesus said? He said: “Thy Word is truth”. [8] When he instructed His disciples to go out, the plan was to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ. As Jesus also said, this was “the way” and the only way that one could go to heaven. [9] We must never forget this.

If we are going to link hands with those who believe in another gospel or no gospel at all for the sake of establishing the Kingdom here on earth, the kingdom that will be established will not be the Kingdom of God.[/color][/b]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] Rick Warren Interview with Charlie Rose, August 17, 2006, http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5555324196046364882

[2] Ibid.

[3] Ibid.

[4] Ibid.

[5] Rick Warren, PEW Forum, Key West, Florida, May 23, 2005, http://pewforum.org/events/index.php?EventID=80

[6] Rick Warren Interview with Charlie Rose, August 17, 2006, http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5555324196046364882

[7] Ibid.

[8] John 17:17

[9] John 14:6


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Walter




anonymity wrote:
Christians judge:
Yes I agree Christians should judge.

Denies Holy Spirit, Jesus, power of godliness, Gospel, ect:
Just because he says that we need each other and get power from each other does not mean that he is saying we do not get power from the other. It is true that alone without the body we could not survive. Both the Gospel and saints are essential. As it says in Hebrew we should not forsake the assembling of ourselves and need to encourage each other. As a body each part needs the other we have been given gifts to minister to one another. God works in us and then God works through us to each other.

DELETED

R
roaringlamb

So since Warren is being labeled a heretic, let's ask the pertinent questions about what a heretic is.

Scripturally, a heretic denies justification by faith, the penal substitution of Christ, Christ as the only way for salvation, or his resurrection. A heretic makes salvation not by grace alone, but by ones works as well.

So, prove that he denies these things categorically, or drop the name heretic.

There are others who are heralded as great men of God who HAVE indeed denied these things who are adamantly defended here all the time. Maybe you(walter) should warn the flock about them.

S
sermonindex


To Ccchhhrrriiisss:

I was expecting you, sooner or later, cchhhrrriiisss. You always show up on this type of issue, and I always know where you are going to stand. Where is that? On the opposite side of where I stand. You truly are the consumate liberal Christian, and I sir, am the consumate conservative Christian:

As you surely know, Newspaper articles are not retained on the internet forever. This story was reported by the Philadelphia Inquirer on January 10, 2006—over 3 years and 9 months ago.

LighthouseTrails picked the story up then, and can be found below.

Link:
[url=http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/rwfundamentalism.htm]Lighthouse Trails Fundamentalism--Rick Warren[/url]


[color=990000][b]January 10, 2006: According to a news story in the January 8th edition of the Philadelphia Inquirer, Rick Warren says Christian fundamentalism will be an enemy of the 21st century.

Excerpt from article:
"Warren predicts that fundamentalism, of all varieties, will be 'one of the big enemies of the 21st century.'
'Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, secular fundamentalism - they're all motivated by fear. Fear of each other.'" [/color][/b]

________________________________________
[b]What does Rick Warren define Christian Fundamentalism to be?

In a May 2005 interview between Rick Warren and the Pew Forum on Religion, Warren stated:

"Today there really aren't that many Fundamentalists left; I don't know if you know that or not, but they are such a minority; there aren't that many Fundamentalists left in America ... Now the word 'fundamentalist' actually comes from a document in the 1920s called the Five Fundamentals of the Faith. And it is a very legalistic, narrow view of Christianity." Quote by Rick Warren, May 2005[/b]

Related Links:
•\tOur Research Site
•\tRick Warren Denounces Five Fundamentals of the Faith
•\tPhiladelphia News Story - 1/08/06
•\tOther PDL Research
•\tRick Warren -
Fundamentalist or Finagler? by Paul Proctor
•\tFrom Gnostic Roots to Occult Revival, by Berit Kjos

Sincererly,

Walter


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Jesus-is-God,

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:

Quote:

[b] Sun, Jan. 08, 2006, in the Philadelphia Inquirer

[i]Warren predicts that fundamentalism, of all varieties, will be 'one of the big enemies of the 21st century.

"Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, secular fundamentalism - they're all motivated by fear. Fear of each other.'"[/i][/b]


Do you have a source for link for this? I looked up the first phrase, and I found that exact quote (using parentheses via Google) at about 50 websites...but NOT at a Philadelphia Inquirer website. Did you read this in the Philadelphia Inquirer...or did you read this somewhere else?

DELETED

R
roaringlamb

LighthouseTrails

Brother find some better resources for information. Those people have been taken to task so many times for faulty stories it's ridiculous.

As for your previous post, I was answering your points and lost what I had typed, but I will just say that joining with Muslims to fight poverty is not wrong.

Do they have to be Christians before we contact them? If I remember correctly, there was a certain man from Nazareth who ate with whores, and tax collectors so that they could know Him.

Also, there are Roman Catholic people who are truly Christians and in many areas of the world, there is only one church to attend in a certain area and it's usually Roman Catholic.

Sadly most Evangelicals have more in common with them than they think as most Evangelicals deny justification by faith alone just like Rome.

Also, anyone who is a good reader will see that Oakland say things that Warren didn't say. Oakland reads things into what has been said and then presumes what is meant to make his case.

Oakland and Hunt are both notorious for this.

S
sermonindex


http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/009/socialism.htm [15]


I shut down the computer and it hit me harder than a rock - I've never posted on a convergent site before. I need to really pray about this.


H
hmmhmm

Myself dont like warren at all, not due to all the things written about him by others, mainly what he has said from his own mouth, to me he preaches another gospel and another Jesus then the ones i find in scripture, I find he sometimes say one thing with one group and another with another group. But really i am convinced that is not the main thing, our Lord said there will be many false "christs" and false gospels and false prophets etc, the cults and false religions are more then ever, the false teachings and extremes are more then ever, all these things are so, and Jesus said they would be so, now I believe in watchmen warning, but also i believe warning is not enough, what i believe is lacking in todays christianity is not watchmen warning, or people who stand for truth as it is found in scripture

What is lacking is reality. Why does so many draw towards these false and wrong teachings? these false prophets and false gospels and false Christs? there are many answers of course, but i am convinced some of them are they seek to find the message they want to hear, to tickle their ears, i see little good to warn such people, another is and the most critical is there is no option from the "real" church, the evangelical church, sure there are loud voices crying out "warning , warning" but where is the testimony of the Lord in the earth?

Where is his Holy people? that live the truth and walk in reality? where are those that manifest such a reality of christ within them that the false gets exposed just by how they live? i know many just seek words of truth, right doctrine , right teaching, but the reality is lacking, and that is better i guess then nothing, but it wont do, what good is it to warn someone from warrens teaching if we can not bring them to follow us in our walk to reality, just the information this is "heresy" never saved anyone.

brethren and sisters, in these times we need to be filled with God, and if God is seen in how you live, how you walk, how you feed the poor, how you speak, how every word is weighed by the spirit that you utter, how you use every cent you earn, how you spend every minute of the day, how christ like you are, people will see your life, and they will hear the false teachers words and prophesies and if God has not hardened their hearts already they will know what is the truth and the way and the life.

The reason so many are deceived other then God himself allows them to be, is that the ones that has the truth, or a large majority of them walk in unreality, they use their time, money, their conversation, their interest are just the same as those who are deceived.

I am convinced still we should warn people from false things, Jesus did, but the main thing he warned from throughout the gospels where hypocrisy. Truly if we just look at the numbers of verses, you find throughout the gospels warnings against false christ and false prophets many times, but only one or two verses at the time, now look how many times he warns those who says they are saved, his children, those who profess his name, the religious of the day, the pharisees , he gives them chapters upon multitudes of verses warning them of their unreality.

Warn brethren, lift up your voices against all that is not truth, but first, see to it you walk in it yourselves, not just collected truthful information up in our heads to teach others how wrong they are, even if they are. I have learned that a life walked in truth speaks louder then all my words and the words of thousands books.

My children listen and retain 10% of what i speak but they see 100% of my walk.

God bless you all

S
sermonindex

To roaringlamb:

Please support your accusations with facts about Roger Oakland and Lighthousetrails & David Hunt.

Specifically you stated:

"..anyone who is a good reader will see that Oakland say things that Warren didn't say. Oakland reads things into what has been said and then presumes what is meant to make his case.

Oakland and Hunt are both notorious for this"

Re: Lighthousetrails---
"Those people have been taken to task so many times for faulty stories it's ridiculous."

Prove those statements with specific facts that support your personal views of Roger Oakland &
David Hunt & Lighthousetrails.

Sincererly,

Walter


roaringlamb wrote:
LighthouseTrails

[color=990000][b]Brother find some better resources for information. Those people have been taken to task so many times for faulty stories it's ridiculous.

As for your previous post, I was answering your points and lost what I had typed, but I will just say that joining with Muslims to fight poverty is not wrong.

Do they have to be Christians before we contact them? If I remember correctly, there was a certain man from Nazareth who ate with whores, and tax collectors so that they could know Him.

Also, there are Roman Catholic people who are truly Christians and in many areas of the world, there is only one church to attend in a certain area and it's usually Roman Catholic.

Sadly most Evangelicals have more in common with them than they think as most Evangelicals deny justification by faith alone just like Rome.

Also, anyone who is a good reader will see that Oakland say things that Warren didn't say. Oakland reads things into what has been said and then presumes what is meant to make his case.

Oakland and Hunt are both notorious for this.

[/color][/b]

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Waltern...

I was expecting you, sooner or later, cchhhrrriiisss. You always show up on this type of issue, and I always know where you are going to stand. Where is that? On the opposite side of where I stand. You truly are the consumate liberal Christian, and I sir, am the consumate conservative Christian.

I wasn't talking to you. What have I done to earn your hateful rhetoric? I simply asked a question about the source. If someone is going to present an accusation -- then why should we rely on a SECONDHAND source? That is NOT research. Now, I am not saying that this is inaccurate. However, if someone is going to hurl the "h" word (heretic) toward a person, then they owe it to them to at least know the certainty of their claims.

Of course, I don't agree with your assessment of what is "liberal" and what is "conservative." In fact, I couldn't care less for your own quite misguided opinion about me (and anyone else who disagrees with your...views). I think that the Pharisees and Sadducees thought they were quite "conservative" too.

Like I have said many times, I don't agree with Rick Warren. However, I think that those who are pointing those fingers of heresy and apostasy need to make sure that their facts are indisputable before they are presented in public. I can't help but wonder if you have NOT looked up this article for yourself (and, yes, the archives for the Philadelphia Inquirer is available online), then you have effectively believed someone else's quote about the guy. This is the danger of secondhand sources. It is NOT research if you are merely gathering your findings from someone else's research. This is how "research" turns into "gossip."

I still can't help but wonder if anyone in any of the "discerning watchmen" groups has ever contacted Rick Warren for clarity. Have you ever attempted to contact the man, Walter? I am not talking about the obvious things written in books. I think that those things are pretty clear. Rather, I am talking about those extracurricular allegations. If someone is going to take the time to spew allegations like this, then they owe it to the man to VERIFY whether or not this is truly what he actually believes.

For instance, Walter, in your initial post, you claim that Rick Warren is a false teacher because he "denies the Holy Spirit." Your evidence? A single quote from his silly book where he has an opinion that addicts need help from others to help them through an addiction. Somehow, you connect dots between this quote and an allegation that the man denies the Holy Spirit. Oddly enough, David Wilkerson has made similar statements about the importance of finding support from others in the Body of Christ when overcoming addiction. Are you ready to also dismiss David Wilkerson as someone who "denies the Holy Spirit?" Of course, Wilkerson (like, I suspect, Warren) does not say that the support is enough. I wonder if I read that same chapter or section of Warren's book if he says something about relying on the power of God to overcome such things? Of course, I haven't read the silly little book...and have no desire to. However, I must ask: Have YOU read that book and found that quote yourself, Walter, or have you also relied on someone else's research?

In fact, many of your claims against Rick Warren are quite similar. You seem to connect dots that aren't really meant to be connected. It is truly...weird. Now, I don't really give much attention to Rick Warren or his ministry because I disagree on several key issues. However, I think that it is a stretch to say that he "denies the Holy Spirit," "denies the Lord Jesus Christ," and "denies the power of godliness." Now, you may feel the need to point him out on several issues. However, I have a strong feeling that he would disagree with each one of your claims. I feel quite certain that, if you looked hard enough, you would find Warren talk about the power of the Holy Spirit and the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

Talk about straining out gnats and swallowing camels! You really need to be careful with your words and a little more wise with your "discernment," Walter. I fear that someone else could use these same "dot-connecting" techniques with YOUR words and somehow attempt to "prove" to everyone that YOU are not a "conservative Christian" (gulp)...or even a Christian at all! What if people who disagree with your doctrinal views were to use the same techniques that you use? Is there even a way to defend someone from another "watchman" who is already so convinced about a matter?

Walter, this is quite disturbing. The funny thing in all of this is that I don't agree with much of Rick Warren's ideology. However, I am not consumed with straining for gnats. There is so much better for you! Why spend a life thinking that it is your duty to expose everyone and everything that you disagree with to everyone else? There are better ways to spend our time.

I do love you, brother. I may disagree with you on some issues, but I do love you in sincerity and often with tears.

R
roaringlamb

Please support your accusations with facts

I will as soon as you will take time to answer the questions I have posed to you about heretics, and what is wrong with partnering with other people to fight poverty and disease.

Off the top of my head, I can give one example. Oakland has gone on and on in the past about the horror of the Emerging Church, going so far as to slander a person I know named Dan Kimball. Now I don't agree with everything Dan says, BUT when Oakland was saying things like, "Kimball's church has a prayer labyrinth" and other accusations, guess what, I went there.

AND

There were no labyrinths, and actually Dan taught a message that included what sin is, who Jesus is, and the need for repentance and faith in Jesus.

But you know he's a heretic too.

Lighthouse Trails has told lies about supposed "contemplative" practices like Lectio Divina. Now one needs only to see that Lectio Divina was a practice used by men like Martin Luther, and it is not "evil" in and of itself.

Some have taken the practice in strange directions, but then again people use the Bible to do a lot of weird things, but we shouldn't get rid of our Bibles because of that.

These are only two items I know, there are more.

As far as Hunt goes, his flawed "scholarship" in his book "What Love is This" is enough to make someone question anything he writes or at least take it with a grain of salt.

Go on you tube and look for James White's correction of Hunt's errors, it will help you.

Please note I am not trying to promote Calvinism at all, you asked for instances, so I gave some.

S
savannah

Ques. RICK WARREN- False Teacher or man of God?

Ans. False Teacher and/or worse

The light of truth has shone so brightly in regard to this man Rick Warren already on this thread and elsewhere that it is even the more evident of the great deception that is sweeping over the masses in 'christendom'.

The flood waters of judgement should have long ago drowned this deluder of souls into the depths but apparently his time has not yet come.

It may not be slow but it is sure,as we know that, "With him are strength and sound wisdom; the deceived and the deceiver are his." Job 12:16

Again we are told, "For any one of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel, who separates himself from me, taking his idols into his heart and putting the stumbling block of his iniquity before his face, and yet comes to a prophet to consult me through him, I the LORD will answer him myself. And I will set my face against that man; I will make him a sign and a byword and cut him off from the midst of my people, and you shall know that I am the LORD. And if the prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the LORD, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." Ezek. 14:7-9

If more can be endured regarding this man, I present this to those who are not wearied by the tidal wave that has already covered the thread:

San Diego Christian Leader Pays Steep Price For
Speaking Out Against Rick Warren

The James Hartline Report

Christian Activist James Hartline Loses Well-Known
Media Support After Signing Published Letter That
Calls On Rick Warren To Stop Allowing Pro-Abortion & Pro-Homosexual Speakers In His Pulpit

A nationally recognized Christian activist
has learned firsthand that there is a steep price to pay for speaking out against the moral corruption of one of America's most powerful Protestant ministers.

Despite the high cost to himself personally, James
Hartline has been willing to expose, what he says, is a disturbing trend of theological and moral compromisecoming from the pulpit of Rick Warren, pastor of the 20,000-member Saddleback Church.

Included in Hartline's laundry list of complaints
against Pastor Warren is the recent speaking
engagement of pro-gay and pro-abortion Democratic
presidential candidate Hillary Clinton at Saddleback Church. Hillary Clinton's invitation from Warren to speak at his church followed a speech by Clinton before the radical gay activist group The Human Rights Campaign (HRC) where she told the HRC "she wants a partnership with gays if elected president."

WorldNet Daily: "Rick Warren's Inquisition"

by Joseph Farah
WorldNet Daily

While mega-pastor Rick Warren has joined a group of 100 church leaders calling for interfaith dialogue and the building of "common ground" with Muslims, he has a slightly different outlook toward Christians with whom he disagrees.

In his latest missive to fellow pastors, he writes: "You've got to protect the unity of your church. If that means getting rid of troublemakers, do it."

"As pastors, as shepherds of God's people, it's our job to protect our congregations from Satan's greatest weapon -- disunity," he writes. "It's not always easy,but it's what we've been called to do." Rick Warren Teams Up with New Ager Leonard Sweet

Rick Warren has invited New Age proponent Leonard
Sweet to speak at the 2008 Saddleback Small Groups
Conference called Wired. 1 The theme of the conference is "Prepare your church for spiritual growth and connectivity." Unfortunately, spiritual growth and connectivity ala Leonard Sweet could be a panentheistic, mystical dose of the New Age - and it isn't the first time Warren has found comradeship with Sweet.

Purpose Driven Resisters - Must Leave or Die
Those who oppose the "program" are called
leaders from hell.

One of the tools Rick Warren uses to help churches
become Purpose Driven is a book called Transitioning:
Leading Your Church Through Change. The book is sold on Rick Warren's website and is written by Dan Southerland. According to pastors.com (Rick Warren's website to pastors), Southerland is the director of "Church Transitions Inc., an organization that trains pastors and church leaders to effectively manage major
transitions. Southerland ... is the leading expert on implementing the Purpose Driven paradigm in existing churches."

Chapter six of Transitioning is called "Dealing with Opposition" and is just one of many ways Rick Warren tries to convey the fact that those who oppose him are less than desirable. Southerland states:

We have experienced two major sources of criticism
during our transitions. The first is Christians from more traditional backgrounds.... Not all of our traditional backgrounded Christians have been critical - just the ornery ones. Our second source of criticism is traditional church pastors. Again, not all traditional church pastors - just the meaner ones (p.
116).

Southerland tells readers that "some folks are going to get very angry." He goes so far as to liken opposers of Purpose Driven to "leader[s] from hell."
He says:

If you have read Nehemiah recently, you will remember that Sanballat is Nehemiah's greatest critic and number one enemy. Let me put it plainer than that.

Sanballat is a leader from hell. We all have some
Sanballats in our churches. This is the guy who
opposes whatever you propose.... You cannot call this guy a leader from hell to his face - but you could call him Sanballat (p. 115).

In 2003, during Saddleback's 25th anniversary, Rick Warren recited, along with 30,000 participants, the Purpose Driven Covenant. In that covenant he stated that he would do "whatever it takes" to accomplish his
goals."

If you have read the above,it is only the tip of the iceberg. This guy is as bad as the Pope or worse.

True it is that there's a "troubler of Israel", but sad it is that so many think it to be the one and not the other.

1 Kings 18:17,18 When Ahab saw Elijah, Ahab said to him, "Is it you, you troubler of Israel?"
And he answered, "I have not troubled Israel, but you have, and your father's house, because you have abandoned the commandments of the LORD and followed the Baals.

1 Chr. 2:7 And the sons of Carmi: Achan, the troubler of Israel, who sinned in the cursed thing.

S
sermonindex

Waltern, I'm not disagreeing with the content of your rants. I believe most of the 'leadership' fueling certain 'movements' have a mixture of iron and clay. I think they are deceptive and hold them in no regard in terms of sound biblical doctrine that will be less tolerated in the last days. The bible says that these will 'deceive and be deceived' so we are also dealing with those who, being deceived, are actually convinced in their own minds that they are doing a work for God. And calling a duck a duck is fine as well. My point was more of the posture you take with these rants. Being a bull in a china shop takes the focus of why the bull is there to begin with. I for one can't get past your spirit of consuming animosity and information overkill to even digest most of what you present.

I do get the gist..... Rick Warren et al and Calvary Chapel have a lot of false and unbiblical stances and mindsets that are driving a movement that is the antithesis of what Christ's church is and represents. Okay, this needs much prayer so others are not deceived. But no matter how much info you present, you can't open eyes and ears. So how much are you praying over all this?? Are you praying that eyes and ears will be open to truth or do you think that just your information and discernment will suffice??? I think we can all do a little better in this area.

N
Nellie

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ.
Which is not another, but therebe some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we,or an angel from heaven. preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than you have received, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:6-9.

P
PaulWest

Being a bull in a china shop takes the focus of why the bull is there to begin with. I for one can't get past your spirit of consuming animosity and information overkill to even digest most of what you present.

I agree. Waltern, there are forum guidelines regulating the excessive use of fonts and colors. Please take them into consideration. The "loud" colors you use and overabundance of text and cut-and-pasting actually works to your detriment when trying to convey a thought.

Paul

E
elharris

Is this where we vote?

Ahhh.....false teacher or man of God....

Ballot- False Teacher.

I read the purpose driven life, what a crock!

The whole book is brain wahsing and indoctrination to get people to dedicate their lives to making money for the Church.

If I can get the book again for FREE, I will show you exactly what I mean here.

Regards,

El Harris

S
sermonindex

That you have been so slandered by Walter ie

I was expecting you, sooner or later, cchhhrrriiisss. You always show up on this type of issue, and I always know where you are going to stand. Where is that? On the opposite side of where I stand. You truly are the consumate liberal Christian, and I sir, am the consumate conservative Christian.

We're all broken people in one way or another, and sometimes I guess broken people hide behind religiousity, some hide behind alcohol, or some behind drugs, some broken people race cars, some construct idols of money or power.

Brother, I have come to know what the translation of the word "lukewarm" REALLY means as referenced in Revelations, and its not the atypical translation, its something different, something false, brittle, whitewashed, fat, with the sheen of grease.

Walter, if you are reading this, it's time to get real with Messiah, immediately humble yourself, repent and apologize to your brother. Whether you actually do this or not, will underline the maturity of your Faith walk with Messiah Jesus, I pray you do the right thing in Jesus' love.

I grow truly weary of visiting these chat forums, the "tree" is bereft of fruit, and the path strewn with "rocks" to stumble upon. May God bless my brother Greg for configuring such a sermon resource, but having downloaded all the sermons I desire for my edification, I do believe that I shall steer clear of the forums, I'm sure many others know what I mean.

neil

S
sermonindex


To: Roaringlamb:

I will respond to your misconception of Roger Oakland's analysis of Dan Kimball as being involved with contemplative prayer:

The following comes from an article by Dan Kimball which is in Rick Warren’s Ministry Toolbox at Pastors.com. In this piece called Emerging worship: Moving beyond only preaching and singing Kimball explains:

"in our church setting, we began bringing back ancient religious symbols and some rituals used throughout church history. We began using some forms of liturgy and responsive readings. Instead of “hiding” the fact that we were gathered to worship, we began praying more, having times of quiet, and teaching more deeply. The more “religious” we got, the more we saw response!

There is a richness to be found in looking back in church history and implementing ancient forms of worship, in addition to more recent ways. When choosing to implement something like *Lectio Divina* (a contemplative praying of the Scriptures) into a worship gathering, though, take a moment to teach worshipers the history of the practice so that it isn’t perceived as just a gimmick."
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://apprising.org/2008/08/emergent-church-dan-kimball-and-lectio-divina/

This is what Pope benedict XVI has to say about contemplative prayer (Lectio Divina):

“If [lectio divina] is promoted with efficacy, I am convinced it will produce a new spiritual springtime in the Church” Pope Benedict XVI, September 16, 2005

The following concerns what Dan Kimball, a very prominent spokesman for the new cult of liberalism which is the Emergent Church, has said about the practice of Contemplative Spirituality/Mysticism (CSM) commonly known as Lectio Divina.

From The Emerging Church: Vintage Faith For New Generations, page 223
"We have neglected so many of the disciplines of the historical church [Desert Fathers], including weekly fasting, practicing the silence, and lectio divina."

From Emerging Worship: Creating Worship Gatherings for New Generations, page 93

"In Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Anglican churches, you’ll find a well-developed calendar and more set pattern of worship. In many American branches of the church, however, liturgical practices were removed and forgotten a long time ago. Yet among emerging generations there is a desire to embrace Christianity’s ancient forms of worship, which includes liturgy.
In the book Soul Shaper, Tony Jones explains a lot of ancient spiritual disciplines and shows how they can be attractive ways of worship for emerging generations. Lectio Divina, which is the practice of repeatedly meditating and praying through a passage of Scripture, and many other spiritual exercises are being reintroduced in emerging worship gatherings.

There is also a growing practice in emerging worship to focus on the Christian calendar, which is organized around two major seasons of sacred time: Advent. Christmas, and Epiphany; and Lent, Holy Week, Easter, and Pentecost. Churches that have used liturgy for some time are breathing new life into their “routine” practices. Other emerging worship gatherings are revising ancient practices.

This movement into ancient forms of worship includes a revival of understanding and teaching about the Jewish roots of the faith. Most emerging churches include a Passover Seder as part of their worship year. They spend considerable time teaching the Jewish perspective of the Bible."

Sincerely,

Walter



roaringlamb wrote:
Please support your accusations with facts

I will as soon as you will take time to answer the questions I have posed to you about heretics, and what is wrong with partnering with other people to fight poverty and disease.

Off the top of my head, I can give one example. Oakland has gone on and on in the past about the horror of the Emerging Church, going so far as to slander a person I know named Dan Kimball. Now I don't agree with everything Dan says, BUT when Oakland was saying things like, "Kimball's church has a prayer labyrinth" and other accusations, guess what, I went there.

AND

There were no labyrinths, and actually Dan taught a message that included what sin is, who Jesus is, and the need for repentance and faith in Jesus.

But you know he's a heretic too.

Lighthouse Trails has told lies about supposed "contemplative" practices like Lectio Divina. Now one needs only to see that Lectio Divina was a practice used by men like Martin Luther, and it is not "evil" in and of itself.

Some have taken the practice in strange directions, but then again people use the Bible to do a lot of weird things, but we shouldn't get rid of our Bibles because of that.

These are only two items I know, there are more.

As far as Hunt goes, his flawed "scholarship" in his book "What Love is This" is enough to make someone question anything he writes or at least take it with a grain of salt.

Go on you tube and look for James White's correction of Hunt's errors, it will help you.

Please note I am not trying to promote Calvinism at all, you asked for instances, so I gave some.

A
AbideinHim

I believe that most of us can agree that there are serious errors with some of Rick Warren's teachings, and his stand on Christian issues that concern all of us.

Walter, we really don't need this much information to know these things. What you are doing is excessive and over the top.

I remember years ago when my wife and I were heavily involved in deliverance ministry, and we began to focus on the work of satan and demons. We were seeing something that was real, and people needed help in this area, but the real emphasis should have been on the complete victory of our Lord over the powers of darkness, and not on the demons themselves. Our focus should not be primarily on false teachers and wrong doctrine, but on the truth, because it is knowing the truth that will set us free from all deception of the enemy.

We need to have discernment. We should be aware of false prophets and teachers, but spending hours upon hours doing research on what is false is not going to get us any closer to the Lord. It is not going to conform us to the image of God's Son. It is only has we see Him that our lives will be changed.

Mike

W
White_Stone

Hello Mike,

We need to have discernment. We should be aware of false prophets and teachers, but spending hours upon hours doing research on what is false is not going to get us any closer to the Lord. It is not going to conform us to the image of God's Son.

Amen! Very well said and illustrated. I was comforted by reading your post.

kind regards,
white stone

S
sermonindex

Dear Mike:

I have attended a Bible believing Church for over 20 years- Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa.

Little did I know that it would not stay that way. In May of this year, my wife and I left Calvary and started looking for another Church.

We at one time (probably 25 years ago) visited a conservative, Bible believing Church in Huntington Beach, Ca. that we decided to visit again. That was our first weekend away from Calvary Chapel and we were looking forward to getting started in what we thought was a good Church. It ended up being totally emergent. The inside of the Chapel was painted purple, and was more like a nite club setting than a Christian Church. The lighting was so poor, I could not even read my Bible (Also, we were the only ones there with Bibles).The majority of the parishoners arrived inside the sanctuary with a cup of coffee in their hands, and no Bibles. However, when the Pastor started preaching is when we could see how far it had fallen from so long ago. It had become totally emergent, with a Pastor that knew nothing about the Bible, or any of it's Doctrine (Teaching). In fact he stated:

“The Jews initially had no problem in following the law, however, over a long period of time they became bored with it.”

It took us some time to finally find a Conservative, Bible believing Church in our area. Twenty years ago, it was full of them!

[b]That is why I have brought the message online to Sermonindex. The Church that many attend today will most likely become “Purpose Driven” and/or “Emergent” in the near future. We are in the last days, and the Christian Church is morphing into the Church of Laodicea:[/b]

Revelation 3:14-22
14. And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15.[b] I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.[/b] 17. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18. I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Sincerely,

Walter


AbideinHim wrote:
I believe that most of us can agree that there are serious errors with some of Rick Warren's teachings, and his stand on Christian issues that concern all of us.

Walter, we really don't need this much information to know these things. What you are doing is excessive and over the top.

I remember years ago when my wife and I were heavily involved in deliverance ministry, and we began to focus on the work of satan and demons. We were seeing something that was real, and people needed help in this area, but the real emphasis should have been on the complete victory of our Lord over the powers of darkness, and not on the demons themselves. Our focus should not be primarily on false teachers and wrong doctrine, but on the truth, because it is knowing the truth that will set us free from all deception of the enemy.

We need to have discernment. We should be aware of false prophets and teachers, but spending hours upon hours doing research on what is false is not going to get us any closer to the Lord. It is not going to conform us to the image of God's Son. It is only has we see Him that our lives will be changed.

Mike

R
roaringlamb

I have attended a Bible believing Church for over 20 years- Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa.

Funny, that's where I went to school, worked in the office, and the bookstore. Ah, but I'm a liberal.

You know walter, sometimes things like this never cease to amaze me. here is what Lectio Divina is-

Lectio
Reading the passage slowly

Meditatio
Meditating on the Scripture

Oratio
Praying about things brought up from the Scripture read and meditated over.

Contemplatio
Contemplating who God is and what He has done. Of course this is basically thanksgiving and further meditation but more so on God.

What I find interesting is that John Newton pretty much says that is how he prayed, without the Latin phrases, and others from the past have found tremendous blessing in it(probably because it's Scriptural to read, pray, meditate, and give thanks).

I don't know, sure seems dangerous though.


Maybe you guys are right about Warren and his one world stuff. I mean I just read today that he went to Starbucks, which is code for St. Arbuck who was the patron saint of loose living , not to mention that they use a mermaid on their cup, which is a symbol like Dagon. On top of that, Warren also uses a Mac and is friends with Steve Jobs who obviously set on World domination through the i-phone(look how every Apple product starts with "I"). And also the fact that the apple has a bite out of it mocking the Biblical account of sin and mankind's fall.

Hmm, maybe I could write for one of the Online Discernment Ministries? I'd love to write for World Nuts Daily(I kid).

Anyway, may the Lord bless you and I hope that you learn to enjoy Jesus, and rejoice that He is Lord of ALL and nothing exists without His allowing it to. He's got it under control.

S
sermonindex

roaringlamb posted:


[b]Funny, that's where I went to school, worked in the office, and the bookstore. [u]Ah, but I'm a liberal.[/u]
[/b]

What you post above, roaringlamb, is so true. I talked with a 31 year old UPS driver in July. He had attended Calvary Chapel school (Costa Mesa) from Kindergarten through High School, and graduated from Calvary. I asked him if he was one of the graduates that was still saved, that was still a Christian. He responded, no, that he was not and that most of his class mates had all fallen away. He said the problem was the legalistic way of teaching then. Chuck Smith Sr. had no involvement with the school, and the Principle gave duplicitous messages like the following:

"Whatever you do, you are not to have sex before marriage. That is fornication, a sin against God. However, if you do have sex, you must wear a condom or a diaphragm."

That type of double message- legalism, and then coaching them what to do if they were going to break God's law, is what destroyed Calvary Chapel High School (according to this guy).

Calvary Chapel School never took the time to teach the Children how to get the Word of God from their heads to their hearts. They memorized Scripture, but once they left the high school they did not have the Spirit breathed Word of God in their hearts. When they went on to College they were nothing more than putty in the hands of the God hating college teachers they spent the next 4 to 8 years with.

Sincerely,

Walter


roaringlamb wrote:
I have attended a Bible believing Church for over 20 years- Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa.

Funny, that's where I went to school, worked in the office, and the bookstore. Ah, but I'm a liberal.

You know walter, sometimes things like this never cease to amaze me. here is what Lectio Divina is-

Lectio
Reading the passage slowly

Meditatio
Meditating on the Scripture

Oratio
Praying about things brought up from the Scripture read and meditated over.

Contemplatio
Contemplating who God is and what He has done. Of course this is basically thanksgiving and further meditation but more so on God.

What I find interesting is that John Newton pretty much says that is how he prayed, without the Latin phrases, and others from the past have found tremendous blessing in it(probably because it's Scriptural to read, pray, meditate, and give thanks).

I don't know, sure seems dangerous though.


Maybe you guys are right about Warren and his one world stuff. I mean I just read today that he went to Starbucks, which is code for St. Arbuck who was the patron saint of loose living , not to mention that they use a mermaid on their cup, which is a symbol like Dagon. On top of that, Warren also uses a Mac and is friends with Steve Jobs who obviously set on World domination through the i-phone(look how every Apple product starts with "I"). And also the fact that the apple has a bite out of it mocking the Biblical account of sin and mankind's fall.

Hmm, maybe I could write for one of the Online Discernment Ministries? I'd love to write for World Nuts Daily(I kid).

Anyway, may the Lord bless you and I hope that you learn to enjoy Jesus, and rejoice that He is Lord of ALL and nothing exists without His allowing it to. He's got it under control.

R
roaringlamb

Here's a news story to chew on for everyone.

[i]Dateline Jerusalem

A man known as Jesus Christ was seen having his feet washed by a prostitute today. Many have questioned the character of this well known man, as he has said that he is the Son of God.

Many were heard saying, "surely this man must not be a prophet, or he would know what kind of woman she is and would have nothing to do with her!"

Later this rather dangerous man was seen talking to a Samaritan woman alone by a well further casting doubt upon his character among religious people.

It is also known that this man has been seen with tax collectors and other questionable people, as well as spending time in solitude, prayer, and contemplation of Scripture.

The religious authorities have decided it is best to rid themselves of this man, as he might just be the one to usher in a New World Order. they have decided he must be put to death in order to stop any danger he poses to their religious practices.[/i]

I hope we all get the point of this.

R
roaringlamb

Calvary Chapel School

I actually went to the Calvary Chapel School of Ministry. Roger Oakland's office was on the same floor of my classrooms.

So yeah, I think I have a pretty good idea of how things were there.

T
TruthNLove

I have been reading most of everyones post and what seems to not have been mentioned is the many who sit under this man's teaching are deceived of their salvation and will spend eternity in HEll. That should be the purpose of why we are discerning this man's teaching. If you believe that he preaches the true gospel then defend him but if you believe like I do that he preaches a man centered gospel that deceives continue to expose this man and more than that pray for those who sit under him that their eyes would be opened and hearts receptive to the gospel that saves.

ETERNAL SOULS are at stake. Irregardless of how information is presented (if done in a spirit of pride, God will deal with that person)do you not care about those who are deceived. If I were lost and deceived I would rather have someone yell it at me than to be quiet about it.

Now Walter perhaps you should start your own blog or website exposing false teachers. Your zeal for the truth can be used if channelled with pure motive and love for the Lord. I do agree with a previous poster that some of you post are over the top (Too much information in this forum, I think better used in your own website or forum) in making your point. I personally agree with you but discern you miss the point in what your trying to accomplish. Do not worry about answering others only worry that you represent the truth in love less you become like a clanging cymbal.

T
TruthNLove

I double posted sorry.

S
sermonindex

Can any one of us be so bold as to say that their doctrine is 100% correct with no errors or misunderstandings whatsoever?

T
TruthNLove

Truth is always bold whether I speak it firm or I say it in the softest sense. Men are fallible and at times filled with pride.

There is nothing wrong with speaking firmly on matters but we should test the truth with scripture void of letting someone's motive interfere with the subject on hand. In this case the eternal salvation of souls.

If someone is speaking with a wrong motive God will deal with that person. One may be able discern truth but not discern his own condition.

S
sermonindex

Here is Brian Broderson's 9-6-09 [url=http://www.twft.com/?page=SundayMorning]SERMON[/url] proving once and for all that Calvary Chapel has NOT joined the Emerging Church. Broderson does not, however, address Pastor Chuck's role in the fluoridation conspiracy.

S
sermonindex

To LoinGirder;

Brian Boderson is the one who called the unanounced Board Meeting in the middle of the day with the purpose of firing Paul Smith, Chuck Smith’s older brother. Chuck was at the meeting, and although he did not vote, he did not try and stop it either.

What was Paul Smith's job description? To keep Calvary Chapel on the straight and narrow, and keep it away from the purpose driven, emergent church, contemplative prayer apostacy movement.


What you have at Calvary is a shell game right now (that has actually gone on for some time).

The long time believers that have attended Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa for years, that have supported the Church financially, are leaving in droves, and they (Chuck & Brian) are trying everything they can do to stop the bleeding, but it is too little, too late!!! A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

[url=http://surphside.blogspot.com/2009/05/calvary-chapel-fires-paul-smith-brother.html]Surph's Side Blog[/url]

Lighthouse Trails regrets to report that on May 5th, Paul Smith, brother of Chuck Smith (the founder of the Calvary Chapel movement), was fired from his position in the Calvary Chapel (CCOF) organization during an unscheduled meeting that day. The motion to fire Paul Smith was made by board member Roger Wing and seconded by Chuck Smith's son-in-law, Brian Broderson. Other board members affirmed the motion, and Paul Smith was dismissed.

Concerns over the direction that the Calvary Chapel movement may go after Chuck Smith is no longer heading the organization have continued to grow. And now with Paul Smith, who strongly advocated and supported his brother's hopes of having a NON-contemplative/emerging/Purpose Driven movement, those concerns are mounting. Just two weeks ago, Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa (home church of Chuck Smith Sr.) hosted a Pure Worship Conference, which included worship leaders from the nearby Rock Harbor church. Rock Harbor has shown signs that it is being significantly influenced by the emerging church, including having had their youth group study New Age sympathizer Rob Bell's book, Velvet Elvis , for three weeks. A few months ago, Rock Harbor held a meeting due to concerns by congregants as to whether they were going emergent or not. Approximately 700 people showed up!

Recently we reported on Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa's high school in which a teacher there asked his class to read, review, and study How to Stay Christian in College written by Protestant-turned-Catholic J. Budziszewski . The book has references in the back of some editions to mystic emergent Tony Jones, and Budziszewski himself is a proponent of contemplative prayer practices. Our article "Concerned Family Asks Legitimate Questions of Christian Leaders" illustrates what many families are going through in trying to protect their children and teens from spiritual deception. Christian parents must realize that the souls of their youth are at stake.

Paul Smith came on board to Calvary Chapel about four years ago to help with what could possibly be a sinking ship. Paul believed that the only answer for the movement was to hold to the basic tenets of biblical Christianity. As he learned of the various emerging/contemplative/Purpose Driven influences pouring into Calvary Chapel, he often spoke up but was also often received with resistance--until last Tuesday, when an impromptu meeting in the middle of the day brought his efforts to a halt.

This situation with Calvary Chapel is not isolated. Nearly every evangelical denomination and organization of any size in North America is going in this same direction to one degree or another. One key factor in why this is happening so rapidly is that Christian colleges, universities, and seminaries are heavily saturated with contemplative/emerging spirituality. Biola University, for instance, where many Calvary Chapel pastors have attended and graduated, is deeply involved in this "new spirituality."

But as with most denominations and Christian organizations, there are indications that contemplative/emergent/Purpose Driven is continuing to influence the Calvary Chapel movement contrary to the efforts and statements of Chuck Smith in 2006. For instance, Calvary Chapel speaker Gayle Erwin has come out strong in support of the New Age sympathizing book, The Shack. Erwin's endorsement for William Paul Young's New York Times best-seller sits on The Shack website, and says:

Sincerely,

Walter

L
Laviver

Random thoughts. In continuing to read your posts Waltern, I couldn't help but get the impression that you have some deep wounds from the Church. Being somewhere for so long, and then seeing the rug pulled out from it; having nowhere to go; no true, lasting, worth-filled fellowship or koinonia; being alone out there; feeling that false prophets abound; all these things in whatever capacity and description that is suitable have inevitably weighed upon you.

Any soul would be hurt. A tree that has been planted for 20 yrs is not easily removed; there is breakage, for the root system is deep and vast. It's not a clean, precise cut. It's messy. We're real people with real feelings. Without a good shepherd, sheep can get wounded.

Of course, the Lord is our All-Sufficiency, but He did also see fit to give us pastors and overseers. He thought it right to have a Church and a Family of children. When the floor of those things falls through for whatever reason and bonds are broken, trust shattered, it is easy to become hurt and over time angry and bitter. Like the wounded animal guarding its broken limb, not letting anyone near enough to help.

I'm not trying to diagnose you at all or describe the extent of possible hurt/etc. I', just throwing ideas out there that may ring a chord in your heart. I know that satan likes to take sons and convince them they're orphans: alone, the only one they can depend on, no family, they've been wronged and abused and taken advantage of for no justifiable reason, feel misunderstood, the thing that is their gift (i.e. discernment) seems to always be taken wrong(so over time, coupled with the abandonment, it can make them hostile/defensive). In their heart, they know they are doing right on some level, but the message is fuzzy and distorted, everyone always hears it wrong.

That's all I have in my heart. I do appreciate you, Waltern.

E
elharris

Laviver you stated concerning Walter.

"Random thoughts. In continuing to read your posts Waltern, I couldn't help but get the impression that you have some deep wounds from the Church."

I'm sorry but I don't get that at all. I don't think being hurt or not hurt has anything to do with his posts, but rather just a love for the truth.

On another note:

Can any one of us be so bold as to say that their doctrine is 100% correct with no errors or misunderstandings whatsoever?

Not yet.

Luke 1:3 It seemed good to me also, [b]having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first,[/b] to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

But if this guy could have it so can I and so can you.

Eph 3:4 Whereby, [b]when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ[/b]

20 2 Timothy 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

21 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

It's obviously available to have perfect understanding. They had it, and the only reason we don't have it, is because of the very likes of the men this post is about.

I think it's a godly thing, when ministries implode. It makes people start thinking twice about what they are in and what they are being taught.

I am convinced, from the word, that when Jesus comes the LAST place you want to be is in one of these churches. As it says: Come out from among them my people and be ye separate and touch not the unclean thing (their filthy doctrines), and I will received you.

And again: 2 Thes 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

How do these men get this big churches?

Jer 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; [b]and my people love to have it so:[/b] and what will ye do in the end thereof?

I always say, you can't have a leader without followers. Now I've been there and done that, and got out, and am very thankful that I escaped by the skin of my teeth. For I too was once very VERY deceived by these types.

I pray that God will lead those who have a love of the truth out of their deceptions.

Regards,
El Harris

S
sermonindex


El Harris wrote:

"I think it's a godly thing, when ministries implode. It makes people start thinking twice about what they are in and what they are being taught."

Isn't this at the heart of why we should exercise Godly discernment; in order that the church and the young and naive in the church are not devoured by a counterfeit that destroys.


David Wilkerson evidently feels the same way.
....................................................
This is a statement by Sermonindex on another thread on 9-15:

"Sadly the truth is,

Rick Warren has done much more for Christ then most of these so called discernment ministries. Apostasy and failure in the Church is all around us. What is needed is men that will testify and live true Christianity, not just point fingers in the dark."

SERMONINDEX.
.................................................
I wrote:...[ brothertom ]

"Here is a "Discernment ministry" that is actually NOT "pointing fingers in the dark"....an International minister who was there, and is, to see the wake of apostasy in action around the world caused by Warren. He is responding to an expose of Warren by Dr. Hutchings..."Piggyback/Saddleback".


Re: David Wilkerson warns about Rick Warren.

"Dear Dr. Hutchings:

Your article concerning Rick Warren's ministry is one of the most balanced exposes of what I see as a very dangerous movement. I find no animosity in what you have said and I believe it is a message that every pastor around the world needs to hear.

As I've traveled the world the last two years in minister's conference, I've seen the havoc which that ministry has caused. In South Africa, one pastor spent six weeks preaching from Rick Warren's book. Most of the well-grounded pillars left the church and it is floundering. We find the same everywhere we go. It simply does not work.

I've order one hundred copies of "Piggyback/Saddleback" and plan to send them to my bishop friends in all the nations we've been to.

God bless you for taking the stand that is not popular and one that I believe truly pleases the Lord.

May the Spirit of the Lord give you strength and courage.

Well said, my brother.

His bondservant,
David Wilkerson"


"As I have known Wilkerson, I would say that he tries to "Live True Christianity", as a person you declared that we need."

.................................................

"Can any one of us be so bold as to say that their doctrine is 100% correct with no errors or misunderstandings whatsoever?"...Laviver..


This is not the issue at all, like saying "Nobody's perfect!" Do you not know that a "little leaven" leavens the whole lump!


The nature of Satan to deceive is to present a religious look a like, that diverts enough , just enough of the TRUTH, to derail souls from gaining Christ. This is what Warren has proven to do, in several ways.


As far as "discernment ministries" go, we all better have one if we are going to survive, and if you are of any maturity in the Church, I ask you the simple question that Cain, the murderer said to the LORD GOD;

The Lord asked; "Where is your brother Cain?"

Cain replied; "How can I know? Am I my brother's keeper?"
This was a wrong answer. We had better be our brothers keeper, if we want Jesus as our Lord.


The Good shepherd will lay his life down for his sheep.

3 things a good shepherd does.
1.] feed the sheep.
2.] Protect the sheep
3.] Faithfully exude his masters attitude.


We are in the midst of the great falling away; Perilous times with many liars and deceivers. I also, along with Wilkerson and Waltern, believe that Warren is that, and a wake of destruction and unbelief follows him, and if I love God's family, I will faithfully warn them.

A
AbideinHim

The problem with many so called discernment ministries is that often they cannot tell the difference between the wheat and the chaff, because they are not only exposing that which is false, but fail to see Christ in those that are true Christians but are deceived in some area. Praise God that there is a gift of discerning of spirits that has been given to some in the Church, but it is the responsibility for every believer to walk in discernment. This is not merely a matter of collecting information but of knowing by the Spirit the true from the false.

The Spirit of truth that dwells within all born again believers has been given to us to lead us into all truth. The Spirit of God will not only expose error but He will reveal truth. Until we are conformed to the image and likeness of Christ, there is going to be mixture in each one of us to some degree. If we allow Him to, the Holy Spirit will take the two edged sword of the Word and separate what is of Christ from what is of the self life in each one of us. Only a mature Christian that is walking in the Spirit will know this seperation.

Mike

H
HomeFree89

OK, I just sat down and read this thread over the last half hour. My heart is extremely heavy after reading these posts by "discerning" SI members.

I don't post much on here anymore, but after going through the posts in this thread, I felt compelled to reply.

Walter, I speak as a young Christian (both in age and walk with the Lord), I appreciate your willingness to stand for the truth. However, the spirit in which you do it is very troubling. You may not realize or care how you come off to people, but I believe you are "shooting yourself in the foot".

You so desperately want for others to see the truth, but you inadvertently turn them away because you come off as very prideful and judgemental. The way things have been handled in this thread are anything but like Christ would have handled them. Where is the love brother?

I feel as though I haven't expressed myself clearly, but please know this is coming from one who is aching over the state of the Church.

In closing, I'd encourage all who are involved in this thread, please examine yourself and the spirit in which you are posting. The whole world can read this thread. Do you think they will be drawn to Jesus because of it?

S
sermonindex


[b]If a bridge is out up ahead and someone is trying to yell out to the crowd to warn them - would you fault them for their wording if they see that some people aren't listening?

I don't condone Walter's "style" every time, but I surely empathize with his obvious frustration.

There are some on here who have posted about Warren's bad practices & beliefs in the past, but now find Walter more dangerous or more worth their time to critique.

I'm leaving this Search link from one of the Best Ministries out there and I challenge any one soul to [i]play[/i] "devil's advocate" by critiquing this Site's contents.

This is So far beyond "purpose driven life" now and the shock I feel that the church is asleep and not aware of this Awake Giant and appears to not want be made aware.

If anyone here does not want to see where this "3 Legged Stool" and P.E.A.C.E plan, Etc., of Warren & Co is leading to - then they Will become a part of it or already are by not speaking up. 'All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.'
They'll either go along to get along or find themselves caught in the web that has been being weaved for many years now, while they've had better things to think on then warning the uninformed that follow these men.
Welcome to the one world church then, but I'm certain that our favorite Preachers that are now in Heaven would not allow this to go on without sounding a major alarm.

If nothing happens between now and next week - most of these NWO-church folks will be in NYC Again this year for all the meetings there.
Clinton's Global Initiative Annual Meeting that always takes place in NYC on the same days as the Annual General Assembly Meeting of the UN -- plus, plus, plus. They normally attend these.

Warren's Three legged stool consists of, 1-the political who's who of globalists, 2-big Corporate and 3-the "Religious" [Interfaith].

I suppose it's fine to be supported by Corporate giants, Global movers & shakers, be an Advisor on Tony Blair's Faith Foundation and rub shoulders with any or all in NYC next week and join with them to form what we all should know from His Word as that one world religion & governance.

At this point, Walter's faults are barely on my radar screen. I see many who claim to be seeking "GOD" going down the yellow brick road for anything resembling a revival or 'unity' at the expense of His Truth and it's woeful.
That [i]is[/i] Converging with the Emergent, whether one realizes it or not and is part of the what the Emerging church has been calling their desired "Reformation".
HE will not Bless anything BUT His Truth during these days of Apostasy [i]from[/i] "Foundational" truth.


We who know The Classics are without excuse, the most.
This has to be the last post from me. I've never liked waking anyone up from their sleep after they've given me enough 'correction' that they feel justified sleeping at this hour.
Let us rather focus on Walter and ignore this [url=http://www.crossroad.to/text/search_results.html?cx=015736079649539019301%3A-bdcqxfnx98&cof=FORID%3A11&q=rick+warren+new+world+order&sa=Search#910]Crossroad To ...[/url][/b]

S
sermonindex

"There are some on here who have posted about Warren's bad practices & beliefs in the past, but now find Walter more dangerous or more worth their time to critique." Jesus-is-God

Many of the points made to waltern were valid and without any maligning of the content of his frustrations. I don't know who the 'some' are here that are making any claims that he is 'more dangerous' and 'more worth the time to critique'. I think this is quite a leap to take speaking on behalf of those who challenge the manner in which much of the information is presented. As a matter of fact the suggestions made by some are actually suggestions to aid in the process of the information presented so it is better understood by those who might not follow this type of movement. When waltern isn't just 'doctrine' focused or caught up in accusing everyone from Max Lucado to Brother Lawrence as having a doctrine of demons, he's quite effective in giving an intimate personal history of his relationship with this church and the interworkings of a process of apostacy. I got much more out of this than any of the previous posts that gave us meticulous and rigid doctrinal details in a manner that can turn people away. And there are more here than just Waltern who have voiced their utter disagreement,concern, and frustration for Rick Warren's ministry and Calvary Chapel, so he's in quite good company.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hello all...

I think that there is a misconception here. I don't know anyone who is defending Rick Warren as a "man of God" or acting as though [u]all[/u] of his teachings are good. I have tried to say several times that I strongly disagree with many of Rick Warren's teachings and methods.

So what am I saying?

I think that some people have gone a step further than merely pointing out problems about doctrine or methods. It seems that some have ventured into the realm of speculation, accusation, imputation and, possibly, gossip. I fear that some have attempted to "connect dots" that aren't needed to be connected (or are on different pages, so to speak).

Walter's initial post draws a conclusion that Rich Warren is a "false teacher" who:
1. Denies the Holy Spirit;
2. Denies our Lord Jesus Christ; and,
3. Denies the power of godliness.

The proof, as shared by brother Walter, is in particular passages that the man supposedly wrote. Somehow, Walter concludes (and spreads) the idea that Rick Warren "denies the Holy Spirit" because Warren wrote that addicts need a support network. While I agree that the Holy Spirit gives us the power to overcome sin, I understand that Warren's "accountability" idea is repeated in MANY Christian books and sermons on addiction. If you read many of David Wilkerson's books (like THE CROSS AND THE SWITCHBLADE and 12 ANGELS FROM HELL), he says something very similar about "strength in numbers"...which was part of the reason that he started Teen Challenge centers to help addicts. Wilkerson didn't just preach on the streets, pray for the addict and instruct them to rely on the Holy Spirit for overcoming their addiction. Rather, he created a center where the addict could find support from other believers. Yet few would accuse David Wilkerson of "denying the Holy Spirit" because of such a notion.

Do you see the point? We need to be very CLEAR and PRECISE with our allegations. If we feel the need to "expose" a man who calls himself a brother, we need to stick to the facts...and JUST the facts. There is no need to "connect dots" or draw conclusions based upon our own reasoning.

It is in regard to some of these sort of allegations that we need to be more careful. Do we really need to conclude that Rick Warren wants to create a "one world religion" or "one world government" simply because of circumstantial clues? In such cases, I think that the accuser really needs to stick to the facts without drawing a conclusion that might not be entirely correct. In these sort of instances, I think that the accuser might actually want to contact the man himself and see what he has to say about the matter. It could serve to verify...or refute...the conclusions.

Again, no one (that I can see) is trying to say that Rick Warren is correct in his doctrine or methods. Rather, I think that some of us are saying that we need to be careful to stick to the facts rather than spread "conclusions" as though they are the indisputable mind of God on the matter.

:-(

R
roaringlamb

Hello all...

Thank you brother, couldn't have said it better myself.

S
sermonindex


Ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:

It is in regard to some of these sort of allegations that we need to be more careful. Do we really need to conclude that Rick Warren wants to create a "one world religion" or "one world government" simply because of circumstantial clues? In such cases, I think that the accuser really needs to stick to the facts without drawing a conclusion that might not be entirely correct.

"Allegations" - "Accuser" - "Circumstantial clues" - "Drawing conclusions" -- The use of these words here is an "accusation" on your part Ccchhhrrriiisss.
I referred you to this website in my post http://www.crossroad.to/index.html --- are you referring to Andy and Berit Kjos?

I think you are young Chris and these folks have been around and very well respected for a long time and trained in areas that you did not choose to go to College for.
I'm about their age and reason or logic is scarcely needed to see the research that goes into all of their work.
I've tired of your insinuations as much as you say that you're grieved over my alleged allegations.
Are you the final word and authority here or is there any respect for the likes of the Kjos' here?
Have you investigated their site at all before you've stood against them? I highly suspect that you have not and also know that you could never refute their work if you did. You've displayed your limited knowledge of so-called "think tanks" several times already.

You truly don't realize the implications of what you are saying but sadly enough, it won't be that much longer before The LORD will allow His full light to shine on the who's who in the final days. My heart literally goes out to you and whatever drives you to accuse elder people who have risked their lives to protect children and His Sheep for decades.
I pray you never wake to find that you have protected the wrong side and accused the right side in this literal split-into-two-sides-only world.
I must tell you - though I hadn't planned to post to this again, that you are on the wrong track with your view of world powers and those who work along with them. I pray you don't find yourself in the middle of even worst compromise in the days ahead, sincerely, in Jesus' Name.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Jesus-is-God,

"Allegations" - "Accuser" - "Circumstantial clues" - "Drawing conclusions" -- The use of these words here is an "accusation" on your part Ccchhhrrriiisss.
I referred you to this website in my post http://www.crossroad.to/index.html --- are you referring to Andy and Berit Kjos?

If you read over my last post again, you will notice that it was in regard to three of the specific accusations levied against Rick Warren included in brother Walter's first post. I am not concerned with indisputable facts that are presented for the consideration of the brethren in regard to this man. Rather, I am concerned with drawing conclusions that seem to be "connecting dots" like this.

Is it true that a man is guilty of "denying the Holy Spirit" because he wrote that addicts need support from other people? Here is Brother Walter's first bullet accusation:

Rick Warren is a false teacher who:

I. Denies The Holy Spirit (Jude 4 "the only Lord God")


Here is Walter's "evidence:"
In his book The Purpose-Driven Life, which is primarily written to Christians, on page 212 Warren writes:

"Let me be clear: If you're losing the battle against a persistent bad habit, an addiction, or a temptation, and you're stuck in a repeating cycle of good intention-failure-guilt, you will not get better on your own! You need the help of other people."


...and here is Walter's conclusion that is drawn from that single statement:
Here Warren denies the power of the Holy Spirit that is resident in every believer's life (John 7:39). In the context of speaking to believers, he says "You need the help of other people" in order to overcome "a persistent bad habit, an addiction, or a temptation." Scripture nowhere says any such thing. On the contrary, Scripture says,

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
(Galatians 5:22-23)

I agree with the part of the conclusion that Walter gives in regard to the notion that it is primarily the power of the Holy Spirit that allows us to overcome sin (including addictions). However, is this enough to draw a conclusion (and make a public accusation) that Rick Warren DENIES THE HOLY SPIRIT? Don't you think that this is really connecting the dots here? I have seen men like David Wilkerson who have urged addicts to surround themselves with good, godly and prayerful people. I have seen men on this website encourage those who are addicted to something (drugs, alcohol, pornography, lust, sex and even gossip) to have another brother with whom they can pray and relate. Now, are we to assume that they were also "denying the Holy Spirit?" Should we also point them out here on SermonIndex (or in "discernment" websites) and expose them as men who "deny the Holy Spirit?"

Do you see what I am trying to say?

I certainly do NOT agree with much of what Rick Warren teaches and the methods that he embraces and promotes. However, I think that it is a stretch to indict the man on charges of "denying the Holy Spirit" when he simply made a single statement about support. In fact, I have known many godly men who have encouraged such support groups by reasoning that "wherever two or more are joined together" in the Lord's name...and the encouragement and instructions to the Body of Christ found in I Corinthians 12 and Hebrews 10:24-25. While I understand (and agree, to some extent) with what Walter is saying, I cannot agree with the severity of the conclusion that he has drawn. Personally, I think that there are enough issues with some of Rick Warren's doctrine to cause us to not be sidetracked by accusations from what might simply be poorly drawn conclusions (or even conclusions that might or might not be true). We need to make every effort to be pure in our words.

I think you are young Chris and these folks have been around and very well respected for a long time and trained in areas that you did not choose to go to College for.
I'm about their age and reason or logic is scarcely needed to see the research that goes into all of their work.
You're right: I am young. I feel so inadequate at times for my youth. Yet, there has been a lot of mileage in my life. I have seen and experienced things in my life that I simply do not write about. And you are correct: My life experience and education might not be the same as those around me. Yet I feel that my journey has been diverse and meaningful enough to speak about many of these issues. Believe me, brother, my personality would prefer to remain quiet. It is much easier to do so, since I do not like confrontation (I know that this might be difficult to believe). I do strive to be a peacemaker. Yet, in a way, I think that this is what I am attempting to do here.
I've tired of your insinuations as much as you say that you're grieved over my alleged allegations.
Are you the final word and authority here or is there any respect for the likes of the Kjos' here?
Have you investigated their site at all before you've stood against them? I highly suspect that you have not and also know that you could never refute their work if you did. You've displayed your limited knowledge of so-called "think tanks" several times already.

Which insinuations are you talking about? I am simply calling into question the specific conclusions -- which are accusations -- made about a man that I hardly agree with (Rick Warren). I do not pretend to be the final authority, and I think that if you were here at SermonIndex long enough, you would be able to see this in the bulk of my posts. As for Kjos, I don't even know who this man is. I didn't visit the website that you cited. However, I don't think that any man of God would concern themselves too much with those who would "test" their words, opinions, or accusations. In fact, I would welcome it. Any time that I have ever ministered, I have encouraged those in attendance to NOT believe what I say or teach -- but to search the Scriptures in order to determine whether or not what I say is correct in the light of truth.

As far as my "limited knowledge" of the "think tanks" that you mentioned in the other thread (specifically in regard to the CFR), I would caution you to see if my "limited knowledge" is any more or less credible than those who would entertain these conspiracy theories. Have they ever attended a meeting? I have. Have they ever contacted members of the CFR? I have. Now, to be honest, I couldn't care less about the CFR. In my estimation, the group merely consists of a body of partisan academics and supposedly "important" people who can hardly agree on anything, but who attempt to have a discussion about public and foreign policy.

You truly don't realize the implications of what you are saying but sadly enough, it won't be that much longer before The LORD will allow His full light to shine on the who's who in the final days. My heart literally goes out to you and whatever drives you to accuse elder people who have risked their lives to protect children and His Sheep for decades.
I pray you never wake to find that you have protected the wrong side and accused the right side in this literal split-into-two-sides-only world.
I must tell you - though I hadn't planned to post to this again, that you are on the wrong track with your view of world powers and those who work along with them. I pray you don't find yourself in the middle of even worst compromise in the days ahead, sincerely, in Jesus' Name.

Brother, please let me make this clear: I don't think that you are anything less than sincere. I have met many people who feel a call to be a "watchman" who are extremely eager to preach what they think to be true from many, many hours (and even years and decades) of "research." Yet the problem still remains when someone makes an accusation about someone that is nothing more than a conclusion that may or may not be poorly drawn.

In this case, I feel that Walter "jumped the gun" in regard to these three SPECIFIC allegations concerning Rick Warren. What is so funny is that I don't agree with much of what Rick Warren teaches or the methods that he employs. Yet, for the sake of purity, I believe that we need to be extremely careful about the allegations that we make. Are they true? Or is what we are willing to publicly bring to the attention to the Body of Christ (and the world, for that matter) just the result of a conclusion that we have drawn due to our own intellect?

We do need the mind of Christ in regard to all of this! Even when Christ Jesus walked the Earth, he confronted the Pharisees and Sadducees. Yet, I don't find Jesus pulling out conclusions that are drawn from any of their specific words. Rather, Jesus knew their hearts. He was concerned about the heart of the matter. If Jesus read the portion in Rick Warren's book about support groups for addiction (which He has), do you think that He would have walked around pointing out the man in public and exposing him? Did the apostles worry about spending years of research in regard to ANY individual...and pointing out that individual with mere conclusions that they drew? Even Paul's warning about Alexander the coppersmith in II Timothy 4 was a little short on the specifics, except that the man publicly opposed Paul's message.

Maybe that is all that Rick Warren deserves? A single warning about some of his views and methods? Why are we so consumed with the man? More importantly, are we called by God to connect dots between a single statement about support groups (or attendance at a CFR meeting) and then publicly accuse him of "denying the Holy Spirit" and trying to "work feverishly for a One World Religion?" This is extremely important...and I think that such a dire accusation merits verification (rather than relying on a drawn conclusion). In cases like this, a reporter (in order to pass academic and honest scrutiny) would be required to verify the information. How much more should we expect from the people of God who are willing to make accusations in the name of "discernment."

Anyway, I hope this post (along with my last one) makes it a little more clear about what I am saying. If we choose to do this, we certainly need to present the truth...and nothing but the truth.

T
TruthNLove

Brothers,

Let's keep this short and simple. Forget Rick Warren's affiliations or denial of this and that for a second. Do you believe he preaches the true Gospel? If you do defend him on that basis. If you don't sound the trumpet in love to those who are asleep that they may pass from death to life.

The big issue for me is that souls that will hear the most dreaded shocking words in history "I never knew you away from me you evil doers".Why do we debate on other issues or try to make points either way as if that is not the real issue. I believe there is a place to expose false doctries of teachers but to de-emphasize or lose focus on what matters to God the souls of men is tragic and foolish on our parts.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi TruthNLove...

Let's keep this short and simple. Forget Rick Warren's affiliations or denial of this and that for a second. Do you believe he preaches the true Gospel?
I think that this goes just a little beyond whether or not we agree with all, part, most or absolutely none of Rick Warren's teachings, methods or civic ministry. It has more to do with absolute purity in our words. God has called us to be pure in all that we say or do. This is never more true than when we set out to expose a man who calls himself a brother.

I don't agree with President Obama in quite a few issues. In fact, I disagree with MUCH of his policies (both foreign and domestic). However, as much as I disagree with him, I think that I would still urge caution with the vast amount of accusations that are, can and will be made about the man. Yes, he supports abortion and other things that I am spiritually and morally opposed to. However, imagine that a man enters this forum and claims that Obama had an adulterous affair -- and bases this upon some "connecting of the dots" that this person made. Even though I might agree that Obama has made some very bad policy decisions (and that he might ultimately be bad for the nation), I would still urge that we aren't quick to entertain such things that are not (or cannot be) verified.

This website is dedicated to "promoting genuine Biblical revival" -- and not heresy hunting, allegation raising, dot-connecting or finger pointing. There are a plethora of websites and ministries out there that are consumed with such things. While I certainly agree that it is acceptable and even good to point out false doctrines, we still must make sure that our words are pure. I believe that, sometimes, our words might be diluted with impurities even when our motives are pure.

I hope that this is a little more clear about what my view is concerning the matter.

S
sermonindex

Thank you for your reply Chris.

I would have appreciated if you had directed your answers solely in reply to the post I had up for you and not include Walter's posts within your reply to my post to you specifically.

Again, I have to say that my post was in regard to your allegations against Andy and Berit Kjos's long-term Research.

Attending a few CFR meetings does not make you an expert. Reading Foreign Affairs Magazines for years and knowing who and why it was established would make a more educated source.

I surely wouldn't reply to this thread as well if I didn't "care".

On the other Warren/CC thread, someone brought up Martin Luther not being able to change the RCC, BUT he did write his Thesis 95 and posted it on their door and countless other publications denouncing the falsehoods.

Many of our Classic Authors have exposed others that became involved with the WCC, such as Richard Wurmbrand - even going to the Senate with these testimonies against them.

Paul said that we are to judge then 'within' the church - not outside, such as the world.
A man is known by the company he keeps and what he himself puts in print and speaks. He attends the Conferences and Meetings that I've already mentioned now on three threads and is a Member in one and Advisor in another. All of these Secular and InterFaith Org.s would rouse the Apostle Paul as well.

The snare that I see is the "good works" that I myself have always been active in and if I hadn't some knowledge of his doctrine and associations with die-hard globalists and interfaith promoters - I'd be right there with them.

Jesus warned that the deception in the last days will 'look so good' that He repeatedly said - "be not deceived" - false prophets and teachers - as did the Apostles in their writings. We cannot say that any of them did not tell us to "watch - be wise and warn".

Protecting the sheep was the 2nd most important "job" of the Apostles in their ministries and their writings and we are literally commanded to do the same. It is not an option. Jesus takes deception very seriously and one needn't look too far into the N.T. to see that -- most especially in the last days. So many warnings - countless warnings. Most of which on heresies, counterfeit do-gooders, signs and wonders, prophetic types and so forth - so needless to say that, coming along side the main teams that are aiming toward a One world religion and government is no small agenda. What company has a saint with such types or groups?

Can we deny that the NWO is well on it's way to almost being fully implemented?
Dare say, one needn't be a rocket scientist anymore to discern that, just from our daily News alone. So why would ANY "Christian" be hob-knobbing with those who are bringing it about - full speed ahead?

They're in NYC now and will be until the end of this month. And in Pittsburg. The discussions at all of these Meetings will affect everyone on this Board eventually.
One's doctrine must be tested first - to be a "National Pastor" and next - the company he keeps. I'd exhibit the same caution with my own Pastor nonetheless one that affects people Globally with his writings, campaigns, his new magazine, his global associations and activism, etc.
There are young and old in my own Church that are just now reading his books for the first time. People that I am very close to.
As I've said before, I'm not a debater nor do I go after numbers of "heretics" and the such - but this man has been lifted up to positions and activism that will eventually affect us all. Yes, there are others with him, like McLaren, Campolo and others, but if we know Warren's methods - we'll cover the whole of this deceptive movement that is pulling in many through deceptive good deeds. Dominionism in and of itself is worth exposing, if nothing else - but that's only a fraction of his bundle.

While we are talking, I think it would make more sense if we prayed together over all the "Meetings" [4 in particular] to be held This month - Amen?

Thanks!

C
ChrisJD

Hi again everyone.


The Truth cannot be only defined by doctrinal postions or philosophical constructs.


It encompases the whole of life, from what we say about others(Proverbs 25:18), to what we say about ourselves(John 5:31), to what we are(Ps 51:6, John 1:47).


Our own testimony of what we are doing or why we are doing it means nothing.


God alone knows that thoroughly.

We will not make a convincing demonstration to anyone that has their eyes open that we ourselves have a genuine and sincere love for the truth when we countance any number of grivous affronts to it right in front of us, because some pecular abberation of the truth is being trashed and denounced to our own delight.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Jesus-is-God,

I have to run, but I wanted to comment about the beginning of your post:

I would have appreciated if you had directed your answers solely in reply to the post I had up for you and not include Walter's posts within your reply to my post to you specifically.

Again, I have to say that my post was in regard to your allegations against Andy and Berit Kjos's long-term Research.

If you re-read my last few posts, you will notice that I wrote in regard to Walter's allegations. I don't know who Andy and Berit Kjos are...nor did I read their articles (unless Walter was quoting them)...nor did I visit their website. Thus, there were [u]no[/u] allegations made by me -- let alone in regard to those two men that you keep mentioning.

I think that you will notice this if you read over those posts again. One more thing:

Attending a few CFR meetings does not make you an expert. Reading Foreign Affairs Magazines for years and knowing who and why it was established would make a more educated source.
Actually, I don't claim to be an "expert" in regard to the CFR. I don't know these men that you keep mentioning; however, they are still just men. I don't know what they allege...let alone what "sources" they have gathered to validate any of the claims that they might make. I'm not sure what your definition of "expert" might be. However, I would venture to say that someone could question anyone's "expertise" in a matter if they haven't gathered credible, first-hand sources (such as actually attending a CFR meeting, talking with individuals in the CFR, etc...). As is, much of the CFR rhetoric in some websites just reeks of "conspiracy theory" nonsense. Many of those "discernment" websites are asking people to believe that a NON-government think tank that offers various (and often, [i]conflicting[/i]) ideas in regard to public and foreign policy is far more organized and sinister than what their websites, magazines, journals, newsletters and meetings (...and even the Constitution) would suggest.

Now, I don't know these fellows that you mention, so please understand that my comments were NOT directed toward them. My concern...which I have tried to articulate several times...is in regard to hurling specific accusations by connecting dots that don't seem connectible, like the three that were made in the first post of this thread.

I am concerned with the purity and absolute truthfulness of EVERY public allegation that we make. Is this the place to connect rhetorical dots and then draw conclusions? From a sentence or two about believing in a "support group" for addicts...to concluding that this amounts to "denying the Holy Spirit?" Are we called to make such public accusations like this?

C
ChrisJD

Hi again everyone.


Brothertom said this, in part,


"...if I love God's family, I will faithfully warn them."

And this is much of the point here:


[b]faithfully[/b] warn

In the proverbs it says,


"A false witness shall perish: but the man that heareth speaketh constantly."


He speaks constantly, not in the sense of frequency, [b]but of soundness[/b].

Paul told Titus in instrcuting him about being a man of God, that his exhortations and teachings should be of:


[b]Sound speech, [i]that cannot be condemned[/i][/b]

Sound speech, the word according to Strong's signifies health, and that which is 'well'.


Over and over again the scriptures warn and direct us as to our manner of speech and it is entirely possible to be full of right words and yet be a bludgeon and bloody axe. Or a clanging cymbal. Or a resounding gong.


To say truthfull words, and be self-condemned.


S
sermonindex

acts 20.

26Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

31Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

C
ChrisJD

Watch therefore! If you are a shepherd...

and feed the Church of God, with sound speech, that cannot be condemned. Like a real Prophet, without death in the pot.

D
deltadom

[url=http://www.moriel.org/MorielArchive/index.php/discernment/church-issues/purpose-driven/rick-warren-to-speak-at-islamic-society-convention]Rick warren to speack at Islamic Convention[/url]

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=V0a&q=rick+warren+site:http://www.moriel.org/MorielArchive&start=0&sa=N

Lu 16:15 - Show Context
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Rick Warren is a dangerous man

S
sermonindex


To: ccchhhrrriiisss; roaringlamb; ChrisJD, loingirder, DeepThinker, Natan4Jesus, Christinyou, Homefree89 and other liberal Christians:

As a conservative Christian, when I post I always support what I post with Scripture, with Bible Doctrine. When others respond to my post, I can immediately tell if they are conservative or liberal Christians. How do I know the difference? The liberal Christian responds to my post with words, his own opinion of the matter, that does not include Bible Doctrine to back it up. Also, the liberal Christian does not usually EVER address the Bible Doctrine that I posted to prove my point (However, if they do, the Scripture they post has no relation to the Scripture I originally posted).[color=990000] The purpose of the Liberal Christians post to the Conservative Christian? To shut down, and stop all dialogue, and kill the post.[/color]

[b]On the other hand, the conservative Christian that responds to me will do so with his own opinion, SUPPORTED by Bible Doctrine (Scripture)that relates to the Bible Doctrine I posted (Scripture) to back up his/her point. [/b]

[color=990000]The pupose of the Conservaitve Christians response to my post is to encourage dialogue, and support that dialogue with Scripture. Also, to search for Bible truth.[/color]


When the liberal is responding to my posts, these are some of the main thoughts and opinions that he/she stands upon to justify their position:

“Broad is the Way, and wide is the gate that leads to eternal life, and all people that say they are “Christian” have found it.”

"It is a BIG TENT, not a "little tent", and there is room for all"

“Once saved, always saved.”

“The eternal security of the believer”

“words, words, words, and more words, but absolutely no Doctrine to back their "opinions" with.[b] Blah, blah, blah, with a little derision & ridicule thrown in at me at the same time."[/b]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Then, I respond with Scripture, which of course is never addressed if they reply to my post—

(Matthew 7:13-14)
13. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
[b]Narrow is the path, and straight is the gate that leads to eternal life, and few there be that find it [/b]

Eternal Security? Really, or are we admonished to examine ourselves, to see if we are in the faith, that we are truly saved:

(2 Cor 13:5) “5. Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?”

“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” (James 2:20)
What does this mean: "Faith without works is dead"? Does this mean that to be saved we have to do works? We have to go back to verse 14 to get the context. “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?” James is looking at this from the stand point of evaluation. He is looking at a man who says, "I have faith!" And he is saying, all right if you have true saving faith then I ought to see some evidence of it, right? “By their fruits you shall KNOW THEM.”

[b]James is simply saying, if our faith is genuine then it’s going to manifest itself. “If any man be in Christ he is a new creation, old things are passed away and behold all things become...NEW.” There is going to be a manifestation. And so he says, what kind of faith have you got my friend, I don’t see any evidence?[/b]

In 90 A.D., when Jesus Christ met John on the Isle of Patmos, He prophesied of this time in world history, to the time of the Church in Laodicea. That is where we are now.

(Rev 3:14-22)
“14. And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
[color=990000][b] 15. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. [/color][/b] 17. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18. I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. [b] 21. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.[/b]

My posts are supported by Scripture from God's Spirit breathed Word, the Bible. They are truth, that shed's light on error. Without God's Word to guide us and direct us, we are lost. [color=990000][b]God has MAGNIFIED His Word ABOVE His own Name:
...for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. (Psalms 138:2)[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:


Deleted

S
sermonindex

To: ccchhhrrriiisss; roaringlamb; ChrisJD, loingirder, DeepThinker, Natan4Jesus, Christinyou, Homefree89 and other liberal Christians:


[b]Today, in the year 2009, discernment toward doctrinal error seems non-existent and the Biblical doctrine of separation from unbelievers, false teachers, and disobedient brothers is neither mentioned nor practiced by the body of Christ. [/b]

Let’s start with Rick Warren’s vision and understanding of his relationship to the church today. Let’s look at his own words:
He has said:

“I’m looking for a second reformation. The first reformation of the church 500 years ago was about beliefs. This one is going to be about behavior. The first one was about creeds. This one is going to be about deeds. It is not going to be about what does the church believe, but about what is the church doing.” (Interview by David Kuo with Rick Warren) “I am working toward a second Reformation of the church which could create a Third Great Awakening in our nation or world.” (From Pew Forum, May 23, 2005, “Myths of the Modern Mega Church,” an interview with Rick Warren)

As Warren perceives himself to be akin to the Reformer Martin Luther or Jonathan Edwards, Lets compare Warren’s views to those of Luther & Edwards to find what Warren is missing:

[b]1. Rick Warren Devalues Sound Doctrine[/b]

Rick Warren looks and works for a “Second Reformation” or a “Third Great Awakening” but his are empty of doctrinal content (Bible Scripture to support his position). Both Martin Luther, the Reformer, and Jonathan Edwards, the great pastor of the Great Awakening, were steeped in doctrine! According to Rick, however, this new reformation or awakening will not be about doctrine or creeds but about deeds!

[color=990000][b]Or, Warren’s awakening will not be based upon Jesus Christ’s atonement for sin by the shedding of His blood on the Cross for the forgiveness of sins. It will not be based on the necessity of repentance and faith to receive the precious gift of eternal life by grace alone through faith alone.[u] Rather, it will be demonstrated through a social gospel of human works meeting human felt needs.[/u][/color][/b]

Failing to recognize that our total reliance must be based upon SOUND DOCTRINE is fatal. Paul warned us of this time, when “in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils”
(1 Timothy 4:1).

[b]Contrast Warren’s statement with the ministry of the Old Testament prophets, the New Testament apostles, or the work of the first century church![/b] The early church believed in and “continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine,” which was sound doctrine (Acts 2:42).

Paul made his doctrine “fully known” and willingly suffered persecution and affliction because of it (2 Timothy 3:10-11). The early church had a clear body of doctrine and the New Testament calls this “THE FAITH” (1 Timothy 4:1; 6:12; Jude 3). They believed Jesus Christ was the virgin born Son of God who shed His blood on the cross for the sins of the world and rose bodily from the grave, and that He was coming again. The early church contended for this, called by Jude “THE FAITH”.

[b]Paul warned that “the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine: but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears” (2 Timothy 4:3, 4).

The Apostle John tells us that “many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh,” and those that “abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God”…and “if there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed” (2 John 7-11). In other words, the basis for fellowship and unity in a New Testament church was sound doctrine! We are not to join in cooperative service or a working relationship with unbelievers and false teachers (2 Corinthians 6:14-17).[/b] But Rick Warren has erased this standard and made his basis of fellowship one of behavior and deeds, and this will lead to a disastrous Reformation. How can we minimize the doctrine of the Tri-Unity of God and blood atonement when so many are attacking them and false teachers are so prevalent?

We cannot reform or see revival in the true church without sound doctrine.

[b]2. Rick Warren Ignores Separating from Unbelievers, Modernists, and even Terrorist Supporting States[/b]

In Rick Warren’s P.E.A.C.E. plan, an acronym that stands for Planting (and Partnering with) Churches, Equipping leaders, Assisting the poor, Caring for the sick, and Educating the next generation. On the surface, I am sure that we can all say, AMEN! It is not his idea that is wrong, but it is HOW he will fulfill this agenda that is troubling and clearly [b]unbiblical.[/b]

Rick Warren willingly works with anyone to fulfill this plan. In a PBS interview with Charlie Rose, he says, “You don’t have to change your beliefs for us to work with you. I don’t insist that a Muslim change his belief for me to work on poverty. I don’t even insist that a gay person has to change their beliefs.” (Roger Oakland, Faith Undone (Silverton, OR: Lighthouse Trails Publishing), p. 146,147)

In 2006, Warren visited the terrorist state, Syria, and gave aid and comfort to this foreign enemy of freedom and the Gospel of Christ. During his visit, Rick made no mention of “Syria's one-party police state, its political prisoners, its chambers of torture, its support for Hezbollah terrorism in Lebanon, and its continued devotion to the destruction of Israel.( Joseph Farah, World Net Daily, at: http://wnd.com/index.php?=PAGE.view&pageId=38899)

His visit turned into a propaganda bonanza for the Syrian tyrants. Joseph Farah of World Net Daily exposed Warren’s misguided visit by writing:
“But now that Rick Warren has traveled to and provided legitimacy to a hostile foreign government, presided over by a brutal fascist dictator who hates Jews, threatens Israel, subverts neighboring Lebanon, imprisons and terrorizes its own citizens and even kills them in massive numbers when they stand up in revolt – now I have to denounce this impostor in the strongest terms possible.” (Joseph Farah, World Net Daily at http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=38897)

The “P” in his peace plan essentially means therefore that he will partner with any individual, church, religion, or even terrorist state to fulfill this goal! What does the Bible, the Word of God say about this? 2 Corinthians 6:14 says, “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?” Paul concludes, “Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you” (2 Corinthians 6:17). [b] Rick Warren disobeys this clear command.[/b]

[color=990000][b]Consider Warren’s statement in the light of Scripture. Did Jesus enter into Jerusalem where there was poverty, disease, and illiteracy and work with either the Roman government or the Jewish religious establishment to eradicate those earthly problems? Did Jesus say to Pilate, “Let’s work together to eliminate poverty?” Or did He say to Caiaphas, “Let’s join hands, although we don’t agree on everything, to defeat illiteracy?” Preposterous thoughts!

Although Jesus cared deeply about those who were suffering, he did not join with unbelievers to establish an earthly kingdom. This was not His ultimate goal, but He came to suffer on the cross for the sins of the world and rise mightily from the dead. While it is fine to help people who are destitute, we must also realize that we can never eliminate poverty. Jesus said in Matthew 26:11, “For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.”

Did the Apostles enter into a city and work with the pagans and unbelievers to care for the sick or educate the next generation? This is ludicrous! The Apostles went into a city to bring the greatest “help” offered to any man. And this is not a new suit, a meal, or a class on reading. The greatest help you can give to any man is the Gospel of Jesus Christ (Acts 16:7-11). That was the message of Paul in Philippi, Athens, Corinth, Ephesus, or Rome. The Gospel of God’s righteousness! “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek” (Romans 1:16). And it was this message that led to persecution and people hating him.

For Rick Warren to work alongside homosexuals, Muslims, and Roman Catholics and other non-Christians care more about teaching reading or math than preaching the Gospel is a very unloving thing for a preacher of the Gospel to do! Our mandate from God is to go into the world and preach the everlasting Gospel. This does not mean we ignore human suffering, for Jesus also leads us to provide material help to those in need, but this still is not our primary focus.
“For what is a man profited if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?” (Matthew 16:26).[/color][/b]

[b] 3. Rick Warren Promotes New Age Spirituality[/b]

New Age spirituality is essentially the belief that all the world’s religions are identical at the mystical level and therefore there can be unity among them. It is based on the lie that in the “center of your being is a point of nothingness which is untouched by sin … a point of pure truth …(which) is the pure glory of God in us”, and that it in everybody, according to a popular and well know Roman Catholic mystic, Thomas Merton. (Ray Yungen, Time of Departing (Silverton, OR: Lighthouse Trails Publishing Company), p. 58-59. )

Shockingly, in his best selling books and on his web site, Rick Warren endorses those who promote and practice New Age spirituality, such as panentheism (God is in all things), mysticism, centering prayer, contemplative prayer, and spiritual formations/disciplines (New Age prayer techniques).

For example, In The Purpose Driven Church, Warren refers to many questionable movements as having a “valid message” for the church that God has used to be a “wake-up call” for the church. Among those he endorses are Richard Foster and Dallas Willard, both of whom practice and promote the “Spiritual formations movement.” (Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Church, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1995), p.126-127.) In Richard Foster’s popular book, Celebration of Discipline, there are eleven references to Thomas Merton (quoted above)( Ray Yungen, Time of Departing, p.72.)

In The Purpose Driven Life Rick Warren enlarges his endorsement of New Age spirituality by citing a Roman Catholic mystic and Carmelite monk named Brother Lawrence as a person we should emulate in prayer. (Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Life, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2002), p.88). Brother Lawrence used a form of prayer that made him “dance violently like a madman” when he went into the “presence.” (Brother Lawrence, The Practice of the Presence of God, translated by John Delaney,( Image Books, 1977), p. 34.) The Carmelite order of monks was heavily influenced by Teresa of Avila whose own thinking was affected by Jewish Kabbalistic mysticism. (Ray Yungen, A Time of Departing (Silverton, OR: Lighthouse Trails Publishing Company), p.146-147.)

Warren recommends reading another Roman Catholic priest and mystic, Henri Nouwen, by promoting his books on his web site. Henri Nouwen teaches: “The God who dwells in our inner sanctuary is also the God who dwells in the inner sanctuary of each human being.” (Roger Oakland, Faith Undone (Silverton, OR: Lighthouse Trails Publishing Company), p. 89-90.) That is a bold-faced lie against the truth! A true shepherd should protect the sheep from the statements of such wolves in sheep’s clothing. At the end of his life, Nouwen taught that “all paths lead to God.” (Ibid, p. 100)

In an article on his website entitled “Pastors need Solitude, Refreshment to Prepare for Ministry,” the author quotes Thomas Merton, who is a clear practitioner of New Age spirituality, and then he gives very clear New Age advice for prayer: Roger Oakland, Faith Undone p.164). Thomas Merton also said, ‘We are already one. But we imagine that we are not.”

“The power of silence and solitude has been recognized throughout the history of spiritual formation. It is the purposeful separation of ourselves from the world in order to place ourselves with God. The evil one assaults our senses with the material world to drown out the distant chords of eternity’s symphony. Only in silence can we move past the deafening roar of the world and hear the music of God.” (July 1, 2008 from an article entitled, “Pastors Need Solitude and Refreshment).

Some of these expressions like “power of silence and solitude” and “spiritual formation” seem innocent, but they are phrases straight out of the New Age lexicon.[color=990000][b] The New Age movement teaches that God is in everyone and everyone is in God, and through silence, meditative trances, mystical experiences, breath prayers, centering prayers, and contemplative prayers, you can find what Thomas Merton himself said is that “point of nothingness which is untouched by sin” where “the pure glory of God (is) in us. It is in everybody.” That is a lie of the grandest order that undermines the truth of God, the Person, and work of Jesus Christ to redeem us on the cross.[/color][/b]

Yet, these authors along with their ideas are promoted as commonplace in Rick Warren’s pastors.com web site (see www.pastors.com). Take a simple visit there and search names like Robert Schuller, Brennan Manning, Richard Foster, Thomas Merton, Dallas Willard, Tricia Rhodes and Henri Nouwen. All these writers promote varied forms of New Age spirituality. [color=990000][b]Galatians 1:6-9 clearly tell us to not give honor to anyone who preaches another Gospel. “As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:9).[/color][/b]

[b]4. Rick Warren Associates with False Prophets[/b]

Rick Warren’s close association with Robert Schuller is well documented. For many years, Warren has yoked together with Schuller’s church growth conferences as a learner and a leader. Robert Schuller is heavily influenced by eastern religions, positive thinking, and is a false prophet in every sense of the word, denying original sin and the absolute need for forgiveness through Christ’s atoning blood.
In 1997, Warren spoke at Schuller’s Institute for Successful Church Leadership. With Warren present, more than eighty gay and lesbian pastors and lay leaders from the Metropolitan Community Churches participated. (Bill Hybels also spoke at that conference.)

How can a good shepherd sit down with such wolves? Jesus tells us to “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves” (Matthew 7:15). Paul warned the Ephesian pastors that after he departed “grievous wolves” would enter among them, “not sparing the flock” (Acts 20:29). Through the ministry of Rick Warren, false teaching is dripping into the evangelical world like an IV hooked up to a dying patient.

[b] 5. Rick Warren Uses Perversions of Scripture and pretends they are True[/b]

Let’s consider just one glaring example among many bad paraphrases that Warren chooses to use in his sermons and books. Warren quotes Ephesians 4:6 in The Purpose Driven Life from a modern perversion, New Century Version, that says of our God, “He rules everything and is everywhere and is in everything” (Ephesians 4:6). Here New Age teaching creeps into a perverted Bible translation! (Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Life, p.88). [b]That God is in everything is the lie at the heart of all New Age teaching. The Bible does not teach that God is in everyone, but that He indwells believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. This is also the offense of the cross that Warren seems so unwilling to accept! [/b] It could very well be that Warren uses this verse on purpose, to gain national popularity and he has been heavily influenced by Robert Schuller, who also is clearly immersed in New Age, or Eastern theology. (Warren Smith, Deceived on Purpose: The New Age Implications of the Purpose Driven Church (Mountain Stream Press, 2004), p.79-86 --(Note: This book is helpful because Warren Smith was formerly involved in the New Age movement and picks up on New Age mystical terminology creeping into evangelical writings that one not exposed to the movement could easily miss.).

Warren also repeatedly quotes the notoriously deficient paraphrase “The Message” by Eugene Peterson. [b]Perhaps Rick Warren has been reading and quoting modern perversions for so long, that doctrine has become unimportant to him, for these perversions water down the truth until it is hardly recognizable.

6. Rick Warren Wrongly Divides the Scripture[/b]

Warren’s usage of various translations allows him to make the Bible say what he wants it to say rather than what it really says. In the following excerpt from The Purpose Driven Life, Warren quotes three people: Isaiah, Job, and Dr. Bernie Siegel. According to Warren, Isaiah and Job, both great and godly men are living “without God and without purpose.” Dr. Siegel, however, understands hope and purpose, and he is a leading New Age author and spokesman! (Warren Smith, Deceived on Purpose: The New Age Implications of the Purpose Driven Church (Mountain Stream Press, 2004), p.48-51) Here is Warren’s twisted comment which makes Dr. Siegel more spiritual than either Job or Isaiah:

Without God, life has no purpose, and without purpose, life has no meaning. Without meaning, life has no significance or hope. In the Bible, many different people expressed this hopelessness. Isaiah complained, “I have labored to no purpose; I have spent my strength in vain and for nothing.” Job said, “My life drags by – day after hopeless day” and “I give up; I am tired of living. Leave me alone. My life makes no sense.” The greatest tragedy is not death, but life without purpose.

Hope is as essential to your life as air and water. You need hope to cope. Dr. Bernie Siegel found he could predict which of his cancer patients would go into remission by asking, “Do you want to live to be one hundred?” Those with a deep sense of life purpose answered yes and were the ones most liketly to survive. Hope comes from having a purpose.” (The Purpose Driven Life, p.30-31)

First, hope does not come from merely a purpose, but hope comes from our God and Lord Jesus Christ as we wait for eternal life. Hope in God, dear friends, not merely a purpose! (Psalm 42:5; 1 Timothy 1:1; Titus 1:2; Romans 15:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:8).

Secondly, Warren does not quote the context of those passages in Isaiah and Job but only the parts that suit his purpose, not God’s! Isaiah was not “without purpose,” but he was struggling with the fact that while he was doing God’s will, no one seemed to be listening to his message. Isaiah was faithful, but he was discouraged by seeing little outward success. The rest of the verse in Isaiah 49:4 clearly shows that Isaiah was not questioning his purpose. In fact, he draws upon God for great comfort and encouragement.

While Warren indicates that Isaiah had “no purpose” or was living “without meaning,” Isaiah actually says:
[color=990000][b]“I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God” (Isaiah 49:4). [/color][/b]

Rick Warren failed to quote the whole verse! Isaiah commits the labor of his life to God by realizing it was God’s cause and work and God would reward him in due time. Isaiah 49:5 continues Isaiah’s encouraging words as he says:
[color=990000][b]“Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.”[/color][/b]

Perhaps Rick Warren should consider that the size of a movement or church has nothing to do with whether something is faithful to God!

Warren Smith in "Deceived on Purpose" insightfully writes: “Rick Warren could have wonderfully introduced hope and purpose through the godly lives of Isaiah and Job, but he chose to use them as examples of men who were without hope, purpose, or God in their lives. Instead, he used a New Age leader (Dr. Siegel) to preface his remarks about having a true hope that comes from having a “deep sense of purpose.” ( Deceived on Purpose, p.51.) I don’t know about you, but this heightens my sense of righteous indignation in that a so-called Pastor would so disgrace God’s men and use a New Ager as an example for us!
These are just a few of the troubling aspects of the ministry of Rick Warren. Warren mocks Fundamentalism and has said, “There aren’t that many Fundamentalists left in America.” (From Pew Forum, May 23, 2005, “Myths of the Modern Mega Church,” an interview with Rick Warren, accessed July 1, 2008 at http://pewforum.org/events/?EventID=80) May I remind Rick Warren that “might does not make right?” Although Warren may interpret God’s blessing in terms of numbers, God never does.( From an article entitled, “The Gospel According to Hybels and Warren,” http://www.biblebb.com/files/gathw.htm.)

[color=990000][b]There were[u] not many[/u] who got into Noah’s Ark. There were [u]not many[/u] who accepted the prophetic statements of Isaiah or Jeremiah. There were[u] not many [/u]following Jesus when He went to the cross! [u]Nevertheless,[/u] there are still some very godly, balanced, loving, and doctrinally sound Biblical fundamentalists and churches throughout our nation, and as long as God allows, I will contend for the holiness of God and the purity of the Gospel. Friends,[u] we are not living in a day of a new Reformation, but in the last days of perilous apostasy. Let us beware and be wise, staying close to Jesus Christ in rightly dividing His Word until He comes again![/u][/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

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Walter wrote:

To: ccchhhrrriiisss; roaringlamb; ChrisJD, Loingirder, DeepThinker, Natan4Jesus, Homefree89 and other liberal Christians:

Liberal Loingirder is an oxymoron. I gird my fluoride-free loins to do battle with liberals, modernists, emergers, non-KJV heretics, simoniacs, Rick Warren, the Illuminati and extraterrestrials.

And like you I wear horn-rimmed glasses and polyester leisure suits and carry a Bob Jones Soul-Winner's Bible (KJV).

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I will be overjoyed to utilize the Precious Word of God in regards to your fleshly accusations against me, seeing that I have read not [b]one word[/b] of any of Rick Warrens writings, nor do I have any interest in indulging in such endeavours.

[b]Furthermore[/b] I am both dismayed and disheartened that you are allowed and possibly enabled to stomp the cyber landscape of this forum with your accusations, and your hard-hearted, hard-edged, pharaisical witness, bereft of any Godly succor or love. But in the Mercy of Jesus' love and the Counsel of the Holy Spirit, may God our Father open the eyes of your heart to the damage you wreak.......that is my prayer. and here is the Scripture brought to the forefront of my heart when I read such posts you write:

9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

10But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

11Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

12These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Jude 9-13

R
roaringlamb

Liberal Loingirder is an oxymoron. I gird my fluoride-free loins to do battle with liberals, modernists, emergers, non-KJV heretics, simoniacs, Rick Warren, the Illuminati and extraterrestrials. And like you I wear horn-rimmed glasses and polyester leisure suits and carry a Bob Jones Soul-Winner's Bible (KJV).

Now that was funny :-D

Don't forget Alex Jones, he's got to be thrown in somewhere too.

R
roaringlamb

Walter, it's great that you're passionate about this, but let me tell you why I can't stand sites like Lighthouse Trails, World Nuts(Net) Daily, and Oakland's.

I used to REALLY be into all of these things, I thought that Rob Bell was going to lead the church into destruction, I thought Rick Warren was the anticrhist. I amened Slice of Laodicea, and Apprising Ministries. But you know what? It made me a bitter, self righteous, cynical jerk who couldn't love anyone who named Christ because I thought they weren't like me, and hadn't reached MY standard.

Oh but then Christ became all to me. No more care about those who do nothing but destroy the body and faith of those who are young or immature in the faith. I could care less what any of those sites say, I know Him in whom I have believed, and I am living my life and loving those around me by His grace.

If I appear nonchalant about these things, I'm not at all, I just know that Christ is the One we are to be concerned with, not the Illuminati, or the CFR, or Obama, or anything else.

You can warn all you want, but as the Apostle says, "if I have not love, I have nothing."

I hope you don't turn into who I became, I really do.

God's grace to you.

C
Christinyou

Walter, have you confronted Rick Warren to his face?

Galatians 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

What is it that justifies those that are in Christ?

It certainly is not works of the conservatives or the no works of the liberals.

It is the Faith of Jesus Christ that justifies all those that are in Christ. There is only one glory, that is Christ in you.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Pretty harsh words for a conservative, but music to the ears of liberals.

So where do we draw a line?

By the Word of God.

Galatians 2:17-21 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I suggest you go to Rick Warren and confront him to his face, and quit spreading malicious gossip, even if it is true, the man deserves to be present with his accusers, even as the Romans did.

Acts 25:16 To whom I answered, It is not the manner of the Romans to deliver any man to die, before that he which is accused have the accusers face to face, and have licence to answer for himself concerning the crime laid against him.

Pray for Rick Warren, that God would do the work, it will accomplish much more in him that the way you are attacking him on this forum. God will protect those that are His from any wrong doctrine and keep His Sheep, for they know His voice.

This is our responsibility to each other and those God will send us.

Colossians 1:23-29 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

"warning every man"? "teaching every man"? How do we present every man perfect? Teach them the mystery that was revealed to Paul, "which is Christ in you, the hope of Glory."

This is our preaching and warning.

In Christ, by the Christ in me:

Phillip

In Christ: Phillip

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To Christinyou:


Where in God’s Word do you find how true believers are to deal with a "believer" that has fallen away from the faith, an apostate believer?

Paul answers that question for us in
1 Corinthians 5:1-13

[b]1. It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, [u] 4. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5. To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.[/u]

6. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7. Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9. I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10. Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13. But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.[/b]

All of the above applies to Christians who have fallen away from the faith.

Rick Warren has exposed himself, based upon his own beliefs expressed in each of his Books and his many, many interviews that he is no longer a true Christian believer (if he ever was one).

We are commanded to call them out publicly, before the Body of Christ, and that is what I have done here.

Sincerely,

Walter


Christinyou wrote:
Walter, have you confronted Rick Warren to his face?

Galatians 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

What is it that justifies those that are in Christ?

It certainly is not works of the conservatives or the no works of the liberals.

It is the Faith of Jesus Christ that justifies all those that are in Christ. There is only one glory, that is Christ in you.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Pretty harsh words for a conservative, but music to the ears of liberals.

So where do we draw a line?

By the Word of God.

Galatians 2:17-21 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I suggest you go to Rick Warren and confront him to his face, and quit spreading malicious gossip, even if it is true, the man deserves to be present with his accusers, even as the Romans did.

Acts 25:16 To whom I answered, It is not the manner of the Romans to deliver any man to die, before that he which is accused have the accusers face to face, and have licence to answer for himself concerning the crime laid against him.

Pray for Rick Warren, that God would do the work, it will accomplish much more in him that the way you are attacking him on this forum. God will protect those that are His from any wrong doctrine and keep His Sheep, for they know His voice.

This is our responsibility to each other and those God will send us.

Colossians 1:23-29 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

"warning every man"? "teaching every man"? How do we present every man perfect? Teach them the mystery that was revealed to Paul, "which is Christ in you, the hope of Glory."

This is our preaching and warning.

In Christ, by the Christ in me:

Phillip

In Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex

Christinyou said:
"Where in God’s Word do you find how true believers are to deal with a "believer" that has fallen away from the faith, an apostate believer?"
....................................................
Here is the Apostle Paul exhorting Timothy about a couple of "apostate believers".

1 Timothy 1:19-20 (King James Version)

19. Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

20. whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
..............................................
Here is the apostle John speaking about a power mad apostate elder:...3 John:

9. "I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.

10Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.

11Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.'
.................................................


...and here is the apostle Paul again, ehorting the Ephesian elders that "men among you" would rise up...Acts 20..

25 “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God[c] which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, ....


..........that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.


[b]AND FROM AMONG YOURSELVES MEN SHALL RISE UP![/b]


Paul ordained some of these men, and was giving them his last will and testimony, and exhorting them to shepherd God's flock. Sounds to me like they could have been believers.....


Dealing with deception from within the company of believers and without, was a fundamental duty of the true shepherd..[ Elder] in the early church, as it is today, and it is abundantly clear that believers were, and former believers are in the company of the apostate....They fell away.

C
crsschk

Time to turn the tables here.

I receive negative responses to my posts from "liberal" Christians. "Conservative" Christians are those that support the majority of my positions, the majority of my posts.

You are mistaken.

[i]Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil[/i]; 1Co 13:4,5

(The whole context)


Bigot-

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.


Can you see why we have such difficulty in communicating?

I am a conservative Christian. You sir, are a Liberal Christian. I have no problem in calling you a liberal, however you never refer to me as a conservative, do you?

You are a piece of work Waltern and are a bigot of the highest caliber. After being away for so long to come back and read this tripe, your caustic and demeaning responses all over this forum ... the smattering quotes above are hardly the tip of the delusions of grandeur that you harbor of your own opinions.

It's seems you have been left unchecked far too long, left to roam about these corridors slamming everyone and anyone who differs with you. You sir are full of pride that you will never come to terms with unless you detach yourself for a season from this setting and take with you some of the observations and advice of those who time and again have pointed out the spirit in which you convey matters.

You cannot even hear over the shout's of your own predilections that have a counter to every single nuisance that challenges or asks a question - Your ready made response is they, whoever they are, are [i]wrong[/i]. It has never been a [i]discussion[/i] with you, you are never wrong or misinformed yourself, you have, to my knowledge never backtracked, re-thought or earnestly apologized for your character here.

In fact, the looming matter here is this very thing. The true Christian attributes of humility and lowliness, charity and [i]love[/i], of seeing and putting others before ones self is so completely lost on you that it is amazing you could be so well schooled on the scriptures while missing their very content and meaning.

Absolutely a rebuke Waltern - Here are your scriptures that you must have to back everything;

Jas 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, [u]provoking one another[/u], envying one another.


There is enough in these verses alone for the both of us - I am at pains to distill it any further and am quite aware of the suspect line I may be walking in speaking 'evil' of yourself. But due to your own approach and long established mode of operation here, I know of no other way of getting the point across.

I highly doubt this will make one iota of differnce, a more gentle approach would just as well be dismissed.

Take a break Waltern, for your own sake.

R
roaringlamb

Brother walter, you like to talk A LOT about correcting people, and holding people accountable. Have you ever considered the following verses in doing so-
" Galatians 6:1 Brothers,if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a [b]spirit of gentleness[/b]. [b]Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted[/b]. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For [b]if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself[/b]. 4 But [b]let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor[/b]. 5 For each will have to bear his own load."

I ask this knowing full well what your response will be; "Warren is not a brother, therefore I do not have to love him!"

Ah yes, better to write someone off, and much easier I might add than to actually have to humble yourself and pray for him, or even see that he might actually be a brother.

See, as I scrolled through this train-wreck of a thread one last time, I caught a couple interesting phrases that jumped out at me-
"eschatology"
"Bible translations"

To me, this has more to do with the problems with the "discernment" ministries than most people realize. The whole pre-trib camp is way too overboard in pointing the finger at who might be the Antichrist and who will usher in the tribulation, and all of that nonsense(yes it is, if it takes away from the whole point of the story-JESUS).

Add to this the arrogance of the KJV-only undercurrent, and you've got a WHOLE lot of US vs. THEM ideology. It is PRIDE, nothing more, nothing less.

This whole overemphasized eschatology has lead many well meaning men to set dates of Christ's return(Chuck Smith being one of them), and has led to some of the most irresponsible Biblical interpretation and exegesis in the world(Hal Lindsey, Tim La Haye). It really needs to stop! I may not agree with these men, but I would still hold them as brothers.

It matters little what end time view one holds as it is not a salvation issue, but when it becomes the means by which other Christians are judged it is devilish, and the same thing goes with Bible translations(don't go there, I don't want to start, and you will not convince me otherwise). ANYTHING that creates an US vs. THEM view IN the Church is not right. I'd say it would be akin to those who thought that [i]REAL[/i] Christians would be circumcised, or else they were "less spiritual".

Please for the love of Christ, stop reading those blogs, and allow Christ to become what you set your mind on, you're missing out on a whole lot of great family members because you've narrowed it down to your own TRIBE and its TRIBAL customs.

S
sermonindex


Dear roaringlamb:

Thank you for your post. My question to you is why have you not read one of my posts that document the false Doctrine taught by Rick Warren? That is what you should be responding to—my previous posts, but you haven’t even read them! On this latest thread you accuse me about “correcting people, and holding people accountable on my various threads, etc.”, but you do not post about why you disagree with WHAT I previously posted ON THIS THREAD, line by line. I have provided 18 in-depth posts that prove that Rick Warren is Apostate as well as a false teacher, that also teaches false DOCTRINE (doctrine that is not found in the Bible) —YET YOU HAVE NOT RESPONDED TO ONE OF THESE POSTS EXPOSING WARREN FOR WHAT HE IS.

Your last post proves my point about liberal Christians, and how they respond to conservative Christians. You really have no interest in what has been posted. Actually, your mind has been made up from the beginning, before I posted anything. You are against me or anyone else making a judgment on another “Christian”, based upon their spoken and written words and teaching.[color=990000][b] And how do you respond- by attacking me personally, and making things up![/color][/b]

[b]Now, instead of replying to my many posts, you make allegations attacking my character:[/b]

1. That “I am not loving a brother” because I have done this (EXPOSED A FALSE TEACHER).

2. That since I do not consider Rick Warren a brother in the Lord that I do not have to love him.

3. Referred to this entire thread as a "Train Wreck" instead of what it actually has been-- the documented false teaching, and false gospel of Rick Warren!

4. Made the false assumption that eschatology and discernment ministries have anything to do with what I posted in regards to Rick Warren and the false Doctrine and false teaching he has done in the past, and continues to do today.

5. Accused me of arrogance and pridefulness because of my choice of Bible Versions- The King James Bible

7. You make the false assumption that exposing a false teacher creates a situation of “us versus them”. In reality, the Bible commands us to expose false teachers and false prophets.

This is the definition of Doctrine, as found in the 1828 Dictionary of the English Language:

DOCTRINE, n. [L., to teach.]
\t1. In a general sense, whatever is taught. Hence, a principle or position in any science; whatever is laid down as true by an instructor or master. The doctrines of the gospel are the principles or truths taught by Christ and his apostles. The doctrines of Plato are the principles which he taught. Hence a doctrine may be true or false; it may be a mere tenet or opinion.
[color=990000][b]2. The act of teaching.
He taught them many things by parables, and said to them in his doctrine. Mark 4.
3. Learning; knowledge.
\t\tWhom shall he make to understand doctrine? Isaiah 28.
4. The truths of the gospel in general.
\t\tThat they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things. Titus 2.
5. Instruction and confirmation in the truths of the gospel. 2 Timothy 3.[/color][/b]


I will give you another chance to respond to one of my posts- take the time to tell me where I am wrong in regards to the false teaching and false doctrine of Rick Warren:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

What does Rick Warren have to say about the importance of [color=990000][b]DOCTRINE…..
does it really matter?[/color][/b]

Rick Warren:
“God won’t ask about your religious background or doctrinal views.”
PDL Page 34

LET'S SEE WHAT THE APOSTLE PAUL THOUGHT ABOUT DOCTRINE:

Doctrine doesn’t matter? So why did the apostle Paul spend so much time and effort warning us about doctrines of demons? Why bother to even warn the Galatians who had been bewitched?
More of what Paul thought about doctrinal views:

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”
—2 Timothy 3:16

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers,
having itching ears.”
—2 Timothy 4:3

“Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.”
—Titus 1:9

WHAT THE APOSTLE JOHN THOUGHT OF DOCTRINAL VIEWS:

“If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house,
neither bid him God speed.”
—2 John 1:10

And God won’t ask about doctrinal views? Well, Jesus Christ (who is God) also did not agree with Rick Warren regarding the importance of doctrine, as we read His words directly to the church in Pergamum in the Book of Revelation:


WHAT JESUS THOUGHT OF DOCTRINAL VIEWS:

“But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.” —Revelation 2:14–15

[color=990000]Doctrinal views do matter! [/color]

Warren’s belittling the importance of sound doctrine might explain why so few in his congregation and those who have become Rick Warren churches, have opposed him.

[b]What does Rick Warren say about Prophecy?[/b]

Rick Warren:

“That is why Jesus talked more about money than he did about either heaven or hell.”

PDL page 267


[b]Is that true? Of course NOT! [/b]

The word “heaven” appears 144 times in the Gospels alone, and this does not even include all of the references to heaven in the Book of Revelation . . . remember it is Jesus speaking in this book where it occurs fifty-six times. So what about the occurrences of the word “hell” in the Gospels alone? “Hell” appears fifteen times, plus four in Revelation. But this is not the only term used for hell. “Lake of fire” is also used, which occurs four times. “Outer darkness” occurs four times. So let’s add the total number of times Jesus refers to heaven and hell in the Gospels and the Book of Revelation.

The total is: 223 where Jesus talks about heaven and hell, compared to sixteen times he talks about money.

[b]So Rick Warren is wrong once again![/b]

Rick Warren:

“When the disciples wanted to talk about prophecy, Jesus quickly switched the conversation to evangelism. . . . If you want Jesus to come back sooner, focus on fulfilling your mission, not figuring out prophecy.”

Purpose Driven Life, P. 285-286

[b]Is that what Jesus said?
Of course NOT![/b]

He spent the entire discourse on the Road to Emmaus during the 40 days after His Resurrection tell his disciples how he was the fulfilment of prophecy!

The Entire Olivet Discourse
Jesus explains prophetic events and why we should be warned AHEAD OF TIME!!!!
See Matthew Chapter 24
Mark Chapter 21
and
Luke Chapter 16

So apparently Jesus thought it was an important enough topic to tell his disciples

At the beginning of Revelation, Jesus promises a blessing to all who read and heed the words of this Prophecy. See Rev. 1:3

Or the Apostle Paul’s words to Timothy:

“This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare.” I Timothy 1:18
And….

[color=990000][b]“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” 2 Timothy 3:16.”
So isn’t prophecy part of all Scripture?
YES!!!

In fact, it is a very large part of Scripture and the crown Jewel of Christianity!

So Rick Warren is simply wrong for suggesting that Christians who are simply obeying Christ’s own words re prophecy are distracted and not fit for the Kingdom![/color][/b]

Here is Rick Warren’s ‘Shape Program”:
1.Spiritual gifts—God-given abilities to do kingdom work

2. Heart—Areas of passion or burden in your life

3 Abilities—Skills you have developed or acquired

4 Personality—Your natural bent

5. Experiences—Both good and bad

We are going to focus on the “P” in SHAPE

In other words “Personality” Which we will prove is rooted in Both Psychiatrist and occultist Dr.
Carl Jung as well as in Paganism.[b] But is found NOWHERE in Scripture[/b]

“Your personality will affect how and where you use your spiritual gifts and abilities.” Rick Warren, Pastors.com

There is not one single Scripture to support this! But God does use our character to determine how we serve!

“When you minister in a manner consistent with your personality God gave you, you experience fulfillment, satisfaction, and fruitfulness.” Rick Warren
Pastors.com

[b]WRONG! Fruitfulness is the fruit of the Spirit, not our personality![/b]

Rick Warren: “….two people may have the same gift of evangelism, but one is introverted and the other is extroverted.”

“…there is not a ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ temperament. We need opposites to balance the church.” PDL pp. 245-246

So, did Rick Warren get these terms and concepts from the Bible?

Of course NOT!

He got both the terms and the personality theory concepts behind them from Dr. Carl Jung

And Who is Dr. Carl Jung?

He was Psychiatrist and Disciple of Atheist Sigmund Freud

And what did Dr. Carl Jung think of Christianity?

"Slowly I came to understand that this communion had been a fatal experience for me. It had proved hollow; more than that, it had proved to be a total loss. I knew that I would never again be able to participate in this ceremony. "Why, that is not religion at all," I thought. "It is the absence of God; the church is a place I should not go to. It is not life which is there, but death."
C. G. Jung. Memories, Dreams, Reflections, ed. by Aniela Jaffe, trans. by Richard and Clara Winston. New York: Pantheon, 1963, p. 55.

And where did Carl Jung get his Psychoanalysis ideas of personality theory?

From a demonic spirit guide he named Philemon, Paganism the practice of Astrology, Taoism
and a belief in Evolution

In other words...Divination and Sorcery!!

And where did Warren’s concept of balancing personality opposites come from?

Balancing or reconciling opposites is another concept of personality theory drawn directly from Carl Jung’s invoking Taoism’s yin and yang (female, male). Jung’s terms for yin and yang were “animus” and “anima,” which Jung described as “psychological bisexuality.”… and that all human beings are bisexual..

[b]In fact,one of the reasons Carl Jung rejected the Orthodox Doctrine of Christ was that it teaches Christ is ONLY good and not balanced with evil! [/b]

[color=990000][b]“...that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.–1 John 1:5!”[/color][/b]

[color=990000][b]Roaringlamb, you have one last chance to redeem yourself. Take what I have posted above about Rick Warren and prove it wrong by SCRIPTURE.[/color][/b]

God bless,

Walter

[b]Brother walter, you like to talk A LOT about correcting people, and holding people accountable. Have you ever considered the following verses in doing so-
" Galatians 6:1 Brothers,if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. 5 For each will have to bear his own load."

I ask this knowing full well what your response will be; "Warren is not a brother, therefore I do not have to love him!"

Ah yes, better to write someone off, and much easier I might add than to actually have to humble yourself and pray for him, or even see that he might actually be a brother.

See, as I scrolled through this train-wreck of a thread one last time, I caught a couple interesting phrases that jumped out at me-
"eschatology"
"Bible translations"

To me, this has more to do with the problems with the "discernment" ministries than most people realize. The whole pre-trib camp is way too overboard in pointing the finger at who might be the Antichrist and who will usher in the tribulation, and all of that nonsense(yes it is, if it takes away from the whole point of the story-JESUS).

Add to this the arrogance of the KJV-only undercurrent, and you've got a WHOLE lot of US vs. THEM ideology. It is PRIDE, nothing more, nothing less.

This whole overemphasized eschatology has lead many well meaning men to set dates of Christ's return(Chuck Smith being one of them), and has led to some of the most irresponsible Biblical interpretation and exegesis in the world(Hal Lindsey, Tim La Haye). It really needs to stop! I may not agree with these men, but I would still hold them as brothers.

It matters little what end time view one holds as it is not a salvation issue, but when it becomes the means by which other Christians are judged it is devilish, and the same thing goes with Bible translations(don't go there, I don't want to start, and you will not convince me otherwise). ANYTHING that creates an US vs. THEM view IN the Church is not right. I'd say it would be akin to those who thought that REAL Christians would be circumcised, or else they were "less spiritual".

Please for the love of Christ, stop reading those blogs, and allow Christ to become what you set your mind on, you're missing out on a whole lot of great family members because you've narrowed it down to your own TRIBE and its TRIBAL customs.


R
roaringlamb

“God won’t ask about your religious background or doctrinal views.”

Well, in a sense God won't ask about those things. All that will matter is if a person is found in Christ. So let's just give a tie on this one.

“When you minister in a manner consistent with your personality God gave you, you experience fulfillment, satisfaction, and fruitfulness.”

Sorry, but I kind of agree with this. Do you think that Peter had the same personality as Paul? Humans vary, that is why there is a Myers-Briggs test. I am an INTP, and to be honest, it fits perfectly AND has helped em tremendously in discerning when something is the Lord and when it is me.

As for all the quotes from the book PDL, I won't bother to answer, I don't have the book and I don't trust anyone who just quotes one line(nothing personal, but you know we wouldn't want to be like Warren and not use whole paragraphs). Plus, if you're getting this from Oakland and those people, I know how they operate, and they are just as guilty of leaving out things as Rick Warren whom they accuse(rightly or wrongly I don't know).

“Your personality will affect how and where you use your spiritual gifts and abilities.” Rick Warren, Pastors.com

Again, I see no problem with this. God gives the gifts AND the personality to do what He has called someone to do. No sense in trying to be an evangelist, if you are introverted. It may be that God has given that person the gift of hospitality. That is why we need the whole Body and the gifts they bring to function as an organic unit.

He got both the terms and the personality theory concepts behind them from Dr. Carl Jung

And you know this how? That's a big jump to make, and you know what they say about "assuming".

From a demonic spirit guide he named [b]Philemon[/b], Paganism the practice of Astrology, Taoism and a belief in Evolution

UH OH, I better go tear out that book from my Bible then, after all Jung named something after it and well, if that's the case, we must say it is EVIL, so I'll go tear out Philemon now.

Don't you see how ridiculous this is?

[b]Roaringlamb, you have one last chance to redeem yourself. Take what I have posted above about Rick Warren and prove it wrong by SCRIPTURE.[/b]

Firstly, I have already been redeemed, and could care a hill of beans what you think(not trying to be rude, just saying).

Secondly, I posed the question earlier about the SCRIPTURAL definition of a heretic. You have yet to say that Warren denies any of the essentials of the faith(e.g. Virgin birth, Christ's death for sin etc.).

If he denies those things, then we have a problem.

Now I must go listen to Leonard Sweet, and burn incense, and chant as I contemplate these things you have posted. :-D

R
roaringlamb

In other words [b]“Personality”[/b] Which we will prove is rooted in Both Psychiatrist and occultist Dr. Carl Jung as well as in Paganism. But [b]is found NOWHERE in Scripture[/b]

and neither is the word [b]TRINITY[/b], but does that mean there is no such thing?

L
Laviver

I think again the problem is people are debating 2 different things here.

Waltern, I'm sorry to break it to you, but no one's really trying to debate that ginormous post about Warren heresy. Perhaps a few stepped out, but it was only to express views on a point that developed as the thread continued: your presentation style, communication skills, and demonstration of Christ-like character in regards to the information your presenting and stance you're taking.

Perhaps you'd be willing to talk that issue in a separate thread? That way it wouldn't interfere with the Warren teaching debate. Both could go on without messy overlapping. You could await challengers here and conversate on these other matters there, if you're willing. From what I see, this 'opposition' to you is not antagonistic but exhortative. It's members of the Body seeing a possible problem and wanting to explore it more, because when one hurts, we all hurt really.

Here though doesn't seem conducive to that talk because it gets confused and jumbled with this thread's topic, which I don't think is the primary point of debate here anymore.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Laviver...

Waltern, I'm sorry to break it to you, but no one's really trying to debate that ginormous post about Warren heresy. Perhaps a few stepped out, but it was only to express views on a point that developed as the thread continued: your presentation style, communication skills, and demonstration of Christ-like character in regards to the information your presenting and stance you're taking.

Going just a bit further, I think that Walter is failing to realize that most of us would agree that there are some major flaws with much of Rick Warren's teachings or methods. The concern that I have (and others have also expressed) is not merely with Walter's communication style. Rather, my concern is with Walter's SPECIFIC allegations in his first post.

Many of Walter's points tend to gather a piece of what he insists is "evidence" and the proceeds to "connect the dots" to an extremely unique conclusion. From a single quote from Rick Warren's silly book that explains Warren's belief that support groups are needed to help some people overcome an addiction, Walter equates this to "denying the Holy Spirit."

I suspect that if Walter would contact the man, Warren would probably take issue to this conclusion. I suspect that this is true of many of Walter's specific allegations. In several of these cases, the accusations are merely personal conclusions that are drawn from the limited pieces of evidence that Walter has seen in conjunction with Walter's own understanding of the Word. Now, this isn't limited to Walter. There are others out there in the world of "discernment" who make allegations or accusations using a very similar method. They are usually conclusions that are drawn from the "evidence" that they have gathered around them. Yet, I still can't help but wonder about some of these very specific (and most conspiracy-oriented) accusations: Why hasn't anyone contacted the man himself (or his ministry) for clarity? If someone is willing to stand up and point a finger at Rick Warren and claim that he "denies the Holy Spirit," "denies the deity of Christ" or is "working feverishly to create a One World Religion," then shouldn't we take the extra step to find any sort of clarity from the man himself (if it exists)?

That said: I think that there is enough concerns in regard to Rick Warren's teachings to merit a good debate about the validity of some of his specific notions and methods. However, I still think that we should err on the side of caution (and indisputable truth) when we make any specific claims.

However, this seems to be a trend. With some issues like this, it is usually a small group of individuals who create multiple threads about the same topic (and, often, including the same allegations) over and over again. I don't know if I can count the amount of threads that Walter has started in regard to his beliefs about the KJV. Not only should we be "slow to speak" (in regard to accusations that are based upon drawn conclusions) about certain specific things, but I think that it would help the website immensely if people wouldn't start up multiple threads about the same topic.

How many "Rick Warren is a false teacher" threads do we need here? How many eschatology debating threads are needed? Yet a few weeks after one debate dies down, someone else (and often, the same person who started the previous debate) will create another thread on the very same issue. Perhaps the topic would be better served if people simply continued the previous discussion rather than opening up the same "can of worms" yet again.

It might be helpful to this web fellowship if people wouldn't start multiple threads on what amounts to be the "same song, second verse" over and over (and over) again. I just think that the overwhelming majority of these controversial threads (that turn into debates) might dilute the underlying mission of this website. Of course, this is just a thought.

:-(

R
roaringlamb

Yet a few weeks after one debate dies down, someone else (and often, the same person who started the previous debate) will create another thread on the very same issue.

and you thought us Calvis were bad ;-)

Please note I am joking(not you Chris)

S
sermonindex

To roaringlamb:

You posted:
"Secondly, I posed the question earlier about the SCRIPTURAL definition of a heretic. You have yet to say that Warren denies any of the essentials of the faith(e.g. Virgin birth, Christ's death for sin etc.)"


My response:

Rick Warren, A Scriptural definition of a heretic?

You be the judge:


Rick Warren, in his inauguration PRAYER, claimed to have his life changed by “Isa”, the “Jesus in Islam”. This “Isa” is NOT the messiah foretold in the canon of Old Testament scriptures. “Isa” is NOT the messiah fulfilled in the canon New Testament scriptures. This “Isa” is not God’s only begotten son proclaimed in Matthew 3:17 “…This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased”.

According to the Islamic uninspired and heretical Qur’an:

“Isa, was a prophet of Islam”
“Isa received his revelation of Islam in the form of a book”
“Muhammad himself verified all previous revelations, including the revelation to ‘Isa”
“Isa is referred to as the ‘Word of Allah’”
“Isa’s mother Mariam, (sister of Aaron and Moses) gave birth to him in a desolate place under a date palm tree”
“Isa spoke as a baby in the cradle”
“Isa foretold the coming of Muhammad”
“Isa did not die on a cross; he was not killed or crucified”
“Isa did not die, but ascended to Allah”
“Christians and Jews who disbelieve in Muhammad will go to hell”
“Islam must fight against Christians and Jews who refuse Islam until they surrender, pay the poll-tax and are humiliated”
“Christians are commanded not to believe that ‘Isa is the son of God”
“Isa was simply a created human being and a slave of Allah”
“The doctrine of the Trinity is disbelief and a painful doom awaits those who believe it”
“Isa is the destroyer of Christianity”


[b]According to the internationally viewed and transcribed spoken testament of Rick Warren, in President Obama’s Inauguration, he willingly claims to have his life changed by “Isa”. He deceptively believes, and is propagating the lie, that “Isa” is the same as Jesus the Christ, the one and only Son of God, a member of the Holy Trinity, and the lamb that was slain for the forgiveness of sin for the entire world. By his own mouth, he is a heretic.[/b]

We, as believers, are commanded to study (the Bible) to show ourselves approved unto God. Based upon just the little amount of information given above, there should be GREAT concern for the legitimacy of Rick Warren and his preaching.

For source see "Jesus in Islam" on Wikipedia

God alone judges who goes to heaven and hell. God can and will certainly save those whose names have been written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. I'm not passing eternal heaven/hell judgment on Rick Warren,[b] but I absolutely am judging him by his words and his actions and how those words and actions line up with the infallible, inerrant, inspired, plenary Word of God as contained uniquely within the Holy Bible! And by the way, ALL true Christians are commanded to do the same (see Jude 1:3).[/b]

Roaringlamb, do you disagree with the Apostle Paul for withstanding Peter to his face without first writing him a note or visiting him privately prior to publicly rebuking him for his gross error?

With your spiritual worldview and according to your understanding of the scriptures why is it wrong or objectionable for believers to "make judgment calls" when the "professing believer" in question twists, wrests, and denies the very Words of the Lord Whose blood he claims bought him? Why do you object to doctrinal correction and rebuke of gross sin and error?

Have you ever compared Rick Warren's false teaching to the Holy Bible?

Did you know that Rick Warren stages massive rallies at his mega church Saddleback to bring awareness to global HIV/AIDS, but studiously avoids any such rallies or mentions about the holocaust of global abortion that is taking place today?

Did you know that Rick Warren openly engages in ecumenical exchange with Islam, and not for the purpose of spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ, but for building "common ground" between the "Abrahamic Faiths"?

I wonder how quickly his fawning media coverage would vaporize if he insisted on having[b] rallies in favor of ending abortion at Saddleback instead of a warm and fuzzy conversation about A.I.D.S?[/b]

I wonder how suddenly his status as "America's Pastor" would evaporate if he were adamant about organizing every church and every church member to mobilize their resources to run the aborturaries out of their communities?

I wonder how his invitations to appear on prime time television talk shows would disappear if he had dedicated as much time speaking out against the blood of millions of innocents flowing from their mother's wombs as he's spent shilling his social gospel of works righteousness?

May the Lord of Hosts open the eyes of Rick Warren and the itching ears of his followers, hirelings and hangers-on before it's too late!

Heretic, Apostate, & False Teacher. Rick Wsrren qualifies for all three.

There is a Harlot church and there is a Bride of Christ. Only those who put Christ first will be able to see the difference. Those who love the world will receive the harlot as a promoter of peace and love. Yet as Scripture says, seeking earthly peace and safety without the Prince of Peace will bring swift destruction.

This should be enough proof for anyone, but methinks for sure tis not enough for "roaringlamb, ccchhhrrriiisss, ChrisJd, Natan4Jesus, etc., etc., etc."

Sincerely,

Walter

S
sermonindex

Chris said:

How many eschatology debating threads are needed?
More than we realize. People's views constantly change because more knowledge is being added to their doctrine. Knowledge doesn't always mean truth. I for one know that most people are simply in error over the subject. But you can't tell that to hardened, stubborn and the obstinate especially those that have "done studies", as if their studies are all conclusive, and those that think that "age" contributes to wisdom, which is not wisdom at all. I've met a lot of old fools.

C
ChrisJD

Hi again everyone.


Lavier and others have rightly made a distinction between objecting to the content of these posts and the character and manner in which they are being presented.

Waltern, you began this thread by exhorting us that it is at times appropriate for Christians to examine and judge other Christians.


In doing so you made this statement:

"Believers should test the spirits behind a person’s action to see if the action brings glory to God."


Multiple people in different threads have challeneged you and continue to do so about this very thing.


Two of the moderators on this forum have now confronted you about the way you post and the things that you write to others.

You are being judged Walter.

Is this your response?

P
PaulWest

Enough please. Just enough. It is sad that so much energy is wasted on threads like this in the forum, they go on and on and on like wheels spinning in the mud. And the train meanwhile goes nowhere. What's worse, anyone who comes near to help "push" gets splattered.

Let the more mature brethren avoid these topics, and study to be quiet, mindful of their own affairs and walks. Please use this forum to post edifyingly and not bitterly; and if you must critique, pray first for the mind of Christ, for the discernment of motive, and for meekness and lowliness of heart.

Thread terminated.

Brother Paul

S
sermonindex

"Roaringlamb, do you disagree with the Apostle Paul for withstanding Peter to his face without first writing him a note or visiting him privately prior to publicly rebuking him for his gross error?" waltern

I don't disagree with this and if you don't as well Walter then perhaps you should follow Paul's example and rebuke Rick Warren to his face. You can very well rebuke Rick Warren to us or anyone who will listen to your longwinded and spiteful six part dissertations but once we get the point you are making then what's next?

"This should be enough proof for anyone, but methinks for sure tis not enough for "roaringlamb, ccchhhrrriiisss, ChrisJd, Natan4Jesus, etc., etc., etc." Walter

And this is the problem... 'you thinks' way too much. Your accusations concerning your brethren with your secular labels (is 'liberal' in scripture?) borders on paranoid idiocy. Anyone who knows those who 'youthinks' needs more proof are very capable of being good Berean type Christians and have proven that here consistently. So you're shooting blanks at them and everyone here knows it. People can accurately see their perspective in an objective light that somehow eludes you. Crschk was right, you're bigotry is glaring with your self righteous separation from anyone who takes issue with you. And this is not just about this thread or Rick Warren... you argue practically everything the same way... with the same biting rhetoric which sounds more like an overzealous and condescending scholar than a lovefilled plea to your brethren. Stop treating people like mindless children and examine yourself. Everyone here can see the difference in the spirit and tone of those who are rebuking you and those you are rebuking. If this is not obvious to you then you need to examine yourself. Otherwise you will continue to struggle with your attempts to relay your discernment as people will start tuning you out not because you are being untruthful but because of your pride and unChristlike behaviors.


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