Christians must NOT be be called a sinner!!!

From [url=http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dx8b23s_3gg2ghmcw]No Longer a sinner[/url]

I said, "I [b]WAS[/b] a sinner saved by grace". He then said " Yea but you still sin, doesn't that make you a sinner?"

The fact that we still sin does not make us sinners.
IOW, just because you sin, doesn't mean that you are a sinner.

Some people have a saying which they twist the truth around to suit there theology:
"I'm not a sinner because I sin; but I sin because I'm a sinner".

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

the Suffix "[b]er[/b]"
[b]1.[/b]\t(added to verbs) person or thing that (does the action indicated by verb); used to form an agent noun.
[b]Example:[/b] reader, cooker, computer, runner-up, do-gooder

[b]2.[/b]\t(added to a proper noun) resident or inhabitant of (the place denoted by the proper noun); used to form a [u]demonym[/u] (Ancient Greek (dēmos, “country).
[b]Example:[/b] New Yorker

[b]3.[/b]\t(added to a noun denoting an occupation) person whose occupation is (the noun).
[b]Example:[/b] astrologer, cricketer, trumpeter

[b]4.[/b]\t(added to a number, measurement or noun denoting a quantified set) person or thing ranked by (the number) or having (the measurement or quantified set).
[b]Example:[/b] sixer, six-footer, three-wheeler

Therefore, the truth is we are sinners because we fit under any of the examples below:

Sinners love sin.
Sinners sin habitually.
Sinners practice sin; all of which are based on No.# 1
Sinners are under the dominion of sin, which is based on No.# 2
Sinners employ themselves in sin, which is based on No.# 3
Christians must never relate to any of these!

Hello Fellow Brother/Sister in Christ,

I consider myself a Christian, even though I struggle daily with sin (sometimes a spiteful thought overtakes my thoughts by what seems like force, and I struggle to get rid of it, or my temper flairs up over the smallest insignificant things, like dropping something on the floor, etc). I hate sinning, not just because I can come under judgement for it (God does rebuke His Children), but more importantly, because I love God and wish to never displease Him!

Sometimes it seems like I'm under the dominion of sin, yet I don't want to be in sin anymore! I read my Bible daily, yet the old man nature can become overwhelming, even though I pray and repent, pray and repent. How can I grow further in Christ and finally defeat sin once and for all? How long before I become free from the old man nature?

Thank you for any help you can offer me. :-) God bless!

A good post by the way, because it raised these questions in me.

So true.

If you notice Pauls' greeting in his letters to the churches he addressed them as saints, never written to the sinners at.....

So, are you Saint Logic? Don't you like the ring of it? I am not making sport...it just is something we are not accustomed to - calling each other saints although Greg Gordon does when he addresses the Believers here on SI.

ginnyrose

Hello jmooney6, welcome to Sermonindex. Thanx for replying.

jmooney6 wrote:
sometimes a spiteful thought overtakes my thoughts by what seems like force, and I struggle to get rid of it

Even Jesus had a thought to turn stones into bread when He was tempted in the wilderness. However, He did not entertain that thought; He did not sin.

or my temper flairs up over the smallest insignificant things, like dropping something on the floor, etc).

I hate sinning, not just because I can come under judgment for it (God does rebuke His Children), but more importantly, because I love God and wish to never displease Him!

Sometimes it seems like I'm under the dominion of sin, yet I don't want to be in sin anymore!

I read my Bible daily, yet the old man nature can become overwhelming, even though I pray and repent, pray and repent. How can I grow further in Christ and finally defeat sin once and for all?

How long before I become free from the old man nature?

The "old man" would be the person that Paul was before salvation (the “old man” is [b]who[/b] we [b]were[/b] before).
Our old man (or who we were before we were saved) is the one that walked after the flesh in regards to our former behavior (Eph 4:22), having been corrupted according to the deceitful lusts.

Our soul that was ruled by the flesh & its passions was crucified with Him, that the (whole) body of those passions might be nullified, so that we no longer [b]serve[/b] those passions.
As long as we do not give in, we will not sin.

All sin is always a willful, intentional, volitional choice; it is never an “ooops”.

Thank you for any help you can offer me. :-) God bless!

A good post by the way, because it raised these questions in me.

It irks me every time I hear a Christian say that we are sinners.

[color=990000]The law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for [b]SINNERS[/b]...[/color](1Tim 1:9)

If we are still sinner, then the law is for us also.
However, [color=990000]we are not under the[/color] (letter of the) [color=990000]law, but under grace![/color] (Rom 6:14)

Moreover, God says that you can stop sinning by His command not to.
Some people call God a liar by telling Him that they can't stop sinning.
And we know that [color=990000]sin shall not have dominion over you:[/color] (Rom 6:14) meaning that we can stop sinning.

jmooney6 wrote:
Hello Fellow Brother/Sister in Christ,

I consider myself a Christian, even though I struggle daily with sin (sometimes a spiteful thought overtakes my thoughts by what seems like force, and I struggle to get rid of it, or my temper flairs up over the smallest insignificant things, like dropping something on the floor, etc). I hate sinning, not just because I can come under judgement for it (God does rebuke His Children), but more importantly, because I love God and wish to never displease Him!

Sometimes it seems like I'm under the dominion of sin, yet I don't want to be in sin anymore! I read my Bible daily, yet the old man nature can become overwhelming, even though I pray and repent, pray and repent. How can I grow further in Christ and finally defeat sin once and for all? How long before I become free from the old man nature?

Romans 8:12-14 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Romans 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Ephesians 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Colossians 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Ezekiel 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Ezekiel 36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

Ezekiel 36:30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

Ezekiel 36:31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

Ezekiel 36:32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

This is just a few scriptures showing what Christ has done for us in the new covenant made everlasting by the blood of his sacrifice for us. God has made a new covenant with us in Christ. The holy Spirit we received at the new birth gave us a new heart and also was put within us to be filled with and walk in, so that we will be able to please God. It is impossible to please God apart from faith in God. We are save by grace through faith. We are kept by the power of God through faith. We are to live in the Spirit and walk in the Spirit of God. We can do nothing of ourselves for we must abide in Christ and be led of his Spirit. It is through the spirit that we mortify the deeds of the body. It is by walking in the Spirit that we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

We will all go through trials in this life but God is faithful to his covenant with us in Christ and will not forsake us but will evermore teach us to trust Him completely.

Blessings to you!

Interesting topic. How would you reconcile this with Romans 7:24 and also 1 Timothy 1:15?

I agree with much of your reasoning because I do not believe a true Christian should live in habitual sin. I remember hearing a message by Leonard Ravenhill where he said someone misquoted a verse to him and that verse was 1 John 2:1 and the person said "..when any man sins, we have an Advocate.." Ravenhill said it's not "when", it is "IF". HE stated that the "IF" is important because it should NOT be the norm for the Christian.

The trouble I have with this type of thinking is that I have never encountered a sinless Christian or Saint in my years serving God. Yes, we are Saints through the blood of Jesus but each of us daily deals with sin so in fact we are still sinners at times.. As we get convicted, we daily cry out to Him and provides the Victory but none of us have arrived at sinless perfection. I recently quoted these verses in another topic but the story of the two men who went up to the temple in Luke 18:9-14 comes to mind again. Especially verse 13.. I'd rather keep in mind that I am a sinner in need of his mercy every day then to be seeing myself as a Saint. Also, the more I know Him the more I see how short I fall and the more work that needs to be done in me.

I tend to agree with my pastor here below as far as our continuing struggle with sin and the sanctification process:
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-4bJg6sH34]Pleasures of Sin[/url]
Each of us if we are honest realize we are a work in progress. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's okay to sin. Just that when we call ourselves Saints we need to remember it's only by the Blood of Jesus and the work of His Holy Spirit.

My last point: I'm not saying all of you here that consider yourselves Saints do this, but I know of some that see the message of the Cross as just for the unsaved. Basically like the Cross is just the door into the Christian life. In Colossians 2:6 it says "Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him". That tells me that we need to remember how we received Him. We received Him in humility and acknowledgement that we are sinners in need of a Savior.

Hello Saints [yes, sister ginnyrose, it does have a nice ring to it]

Here's my $.0.02:
Dear jmooney6,
I think I understand where you are. You see, as believers, we have a living, breathing enemy, Satan, who's goal is to
a] prevent folks from coming to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Failing that

b] Prevent the saints from being spiritually productive e.g. growing daily in our experiential knowledge of the Trinity [Eph 1:17 -20, Eph 3"16- 19 etc], growing up and manifesting the fruit of the Spirit [Eph 4:14-16, Gal. 5:22-26]

On top of that the enemy has an ally within us: our flesh i.e. body and unrenewed mind.
The path to victory is two-pronged.
a] In I Cor 9:27. The Lord shows us what to do with our bodies. He gives us grace but He won't discipline our bodies for us.

b] Rom 12:1-2
Notice also, we are to do something here too.
Falling into sin isn't like catching a cold-you know, totally without your consent.

The enemy will come at you using everything in his arsenal, having studied humans for some 6,000 years or so.
Our victory is in knowing how to skillfully wield the Sword of the Spirit [the Word of God] and being sober and vigilant.
Say for instance, I have a problem with thinking unworthy thoughts of a particular person who just manages to always rub me the wrong way. I could
a] resign myself to it and justify it with,'I'm impatient by nature. It's their fault. They just like to push my buttons' Believe me, there are believers like that.
OR

b] realize i'm not walking in love i.e. being short-tempered [contrary to I Cor 13:4]. I would
i] repent
ii]ask the Lord for grace to bear with them
iii] ask the Lord for strategies to practically express love to them
iv] know when to whip out the Word at the devil e.g. Boldly declaare, 'It is written, 'I am a child of God [I John3:1]. I have been given His nature. He is at work in me giving me the desire and ability to do that which pleases Him [Phil 2:13]. I refuse these sinful thoughts. I refuse to dwell on them. In the name of Jesus Christ, begone!'
v] Confess God's word about my new nature in Christ. There was a time we had I Cor 13 up on our fridge, bathroom door, bedroom door, living room walls until some of it sunk in. We've got to put the Word before our eyes...

You might have to stand your ground a few times until the enemy realizes u do believe what u're saying. He'll go off to bother someone else and return another season.

Hope this helps...

It is well.

Tolu

JCGarc55 wrote:
Interesting topic. How would you reconcile this with Romans 7:24

and also 1 Timothy 1:15?

Paul is a righteous man and the law is not made for such, therefore, he is not a sinner.
Or
Paul is lawless, disobedient, ungodly and a sinner, He is also unholy and profane, He is a murderer of fathers and a murderer of mothers, He is a manslayer, a fornicator, maybe a homosexual, He might be a slave trader, a liars, a perjurer...etc...

Paul said that he is chief of sinners out of regret and remorse, not making a doctrine that contradict what he just said in verses 9 & 10.

JCGarc55 wrote:
The trouble I have with this type of thinking is that I have never encountered a sinless Christian or Saint in my years serving God.

Yes, we are Saints through the blood of Jesus but each of us daily deals with sin so in fact we are still sinners at times.

As we get convicted, we daily cry out to Him and provides the Victory but none of us have arrived at sinless perfection.

"say Christians are nor sinless, they just sin less. Well, I got news for you; if you're a Christian, you don't sin! You've got victory over sin! The Lord Jesus Christ came to purify us unto holiness and nothing but purity will satisfy Him!" (LEONARD RAVENHILL)

I recently quoted these verses in another topic but the story of the two men who went up to the temple in Luke 18:9-14 comes to mind again.

I'd rather keep in mind that I am a sinner in need of his mercy every day then to be seeing myself as a Saint. Also, the more I know Him the more I see how short I fall and the more work that needs to be done in me.

I tend to agree with my pastor here below as far as our continuing struggle with sin and the sanctification process:

That main this thread is about calling yourself a sinner.

Each of us if we are honest realize we are a work in progress. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's okay to sin. Just that when we call ourselves Saints we need to remember it's only by the Blood of Jesus and the work of His Holy Spirit.

My last point: I'm not saying all of you here that consider yourselves Saints do this, but I know of some that see the message of the Cross as just for the unsaved. Basically like the Cross is just the door into the Christian life. In Colossians 2:6 it says "Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him". That tells me that we need to remember how we received Him. We received Him in humility and acknowledgement that we are sinners in need of a Savior.

Paul is speaking as in a pre-salvation state.

I had a feeling you probably believed that way. My convictions are more along the lines of David Wilkerson. Have you read "Two of Me"? Specifically chapter 6:
[b] I love to do God's will so far as my new nature is concerned; but there is something else deep within me, in my lower nature, that is at war in my mind and wins the fight and enslaves me again to the sin still in me. ...In my mind I want to be God's willing servant but instead I FIND MYSELF STILL ENSLAVED WITH SIN (Romans 7:22-25 Living Bible). Paul wasn't talking about an experience before accepting Christ--because He states, "I love to do God's will." He also speaks of his "new life" that tells him to do right. That is not the testimony of a sinner. Paul, at one time, fought this battle after his conversion, and he opened to us his inner struggle. It has been the personal battle of all honest Christians.[/b]
As for 1 Timothy 1:15, I've always believed that Paul was acknowledging what he is outside of the redeeming work of Christ and also sharing how God has saved him as an example of His mercy. By the way, I agree of course that he is no longer practicing the sins mentioned in that chapter.

But the Tax collector became saved and stopped employing himself in sin & stopped loving sin and habitually doing it.

Brother how do you know that? It is nowhere in the text. For all we know, he could have gone back to being a tax collector, a justified tax collector, but a tax collector none the less.

I think you're reading into the text something that is not there, it just says that he went to his house justified.

JCGarc55 wrote:

Paul is speaking as in a pre-salvation state.

I had a feeling you probably believed that way.

My convictions are more along the lines of David Wilkerson. Have you read "Two of Me"? Specifically chapter 6:

because we have "freed from sin" as our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed; For he that is dead is freed from sin.(Romans 6:6-8)

[color=990000]Let not sin therefore[/color] (be in bondage under the) [color=990000]reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.[/color] (Romans 6:12-13)

I love to do God's will so far as my new nature is concerned; but there is something else deep within me, in my lower nature, that is at war in my mind and wins the fight and enslaves me again to the sin still in me. ...In my mind I want to be God's willing servant but instead I FIND MYSELF STILL ENSLAVED WITH SIN (Romans 7:22-25 Living Bible).

Paul wasn't talking about an experience before accepting Christ--because He states, "I love to do God's will." He also speaks of his "new life" that tells him to do right.

[b]Rom 7:14[/b] [color=990000]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.[/color]
Christians are not carnal & no longer sold under sin.

[b]Rom 7:15[/b] [color=990000]For that which I do I know not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.[/color]

or IOW: I don't understand what I'm doing. I habitually don't do what I prefer to do, because I habitually do what I hate.

Christians do not habitually sin.

[b]Rom 7:18[/b] [color=990000]For I know that in me[/color] (that is, in my flesh) [color=990000]dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.[/color]

Or IOW: I know that nothing of virtue is in my flesh. However, I am willing to do good (willing to have the right affections), but, I don't know how to do it.

Christians know how to perform that which is good.

That is not the testimony of a sinner.

[quot]Paul, at one time, fought this battle after his conversion, and he opened to us his inner struggle. It has been the personal battle of all honest Christians.Manichaeism Theology (a form of Gnosticism) teaches that mankind is a "battleground" for good & evil: the good part is the soul, and the bad part is the body (flesh) which is composed of Earth (the Earth part is true). The soul defines the person and is incorruptible, but it is under the domination of a foreign power (of the body/flesh)

Are you in a Gnostic religion?

As for 1 Timothy 1:15, I've always believed that Paul was acknowledging what he is outside of the redeeming work of Christ and also sharing how God has saved him as an example of His mercy. By the way, I agree of course that he is no longer practicing the sins mentioned in that chapter.

The word sinner(s) is in the Scriptures 67 times, and not one is describing the righteous. How is it that you think that you are still a sinner if you are a Christian.
How do you define yourself a sinner in my opening post?

roaringlamb wrote:

But the Tax collector became saved and stopped employing himself in sin & stopped loving sin and habitually doing it.

Brother how do you know that?

It is nowhere in the text. For all we know, he could have gone back to being a tax collector, a justified tax collector, but a tax collector none the less.

I think you're reading into the text something that is not there, it just says that he went to his house justified.

Wanting mercy for/from what if he stayed the same?
Was he crying for mercy from his guilt of sin or from the punishment from it?

If it was from the guilt of sin, then he would stop sinning once he found that he got mercy.

If it was only from the punishment from sin, and stayed in his sin, then He still wanted to sin but not have the consequence from it.

Why are you arguing that you are still a sinner?

Just because you sin does not make you a sinner.
I can bark like a dog, but that don't make me a dog.

Only sinners love sin.
Sinners sin habitually.
Sinners practice sin
Sinners are under the dominion of sin
Sinners employ themselves in sin

When you say that your a sinner, you imply that you fall under any of these.

Then he did not stay justified; he was not sincere in his cry for mercy

But again, you are reading into the text what is not there, and this idea is at odds with Paul's words in Romans 8 where he says that those whom God justified were also glorified(all in past tense).

So which is it?

Just because you sin does not make you a sinner. I can bark like a dog, but that don't make me a dog.

Actually yes sinning makes me a sinner. But being justified makes me right with God. My sin nature is not completely removed from me until I am glorified, however there is a new King who wars with the old tyrant.

You are right that barking won't make you a dog, but if there was some change of nature, you could be a dog. Let's go one step further, let's say you were changed into a dog, yet the human part remained. At times, you might walk on two legs because that part of your new nature wasn't matured yet. But quickly, you would realize that it was not fitting with the new nature of being a dog.

See you are overlooking the fact that the old man is still there along with the new man. If this were not so, Scripture would not say to walk according to the new man and not according to the old man, and those words are written to believers, not unsaved people who would only walk according to the old man.

Another point to remember is that there are imperatives(do this) based on indicatives(what has been done) that are used frequently throughout the Epistles and Gospels. This is important to know.

For example, I am American(indicative) therefore I must obey Federal Laws(imperative). BUT I cannot become American by obeying the Federal Law(yes I know about green cards and such, but for sake of this argument use this poor example).

I cannot become a Christian by obeying the imperatives(do this), but rather because I am a Christian(indicative) I obey(imperative).

Hope this helps

The word sinner(s) is in the Scriptures 67 times, and not one is describing the righteous. How is it that you think that you are still a sinner if you are a Christian. How do you define yourself a sinner in my opening post?

Paul's letters were written to the church right? In the letters he addresses sin so obviously the Church and His Saints sometimes fall into sin. If all of us were in a state of sainthood 24/7 after conversion, then Paul wasted a lot of time speaking on topics like immorality and legalism, etc. to the Church.. Why preach convicting messages since were all saints and each of us has done away with our flesh? ...supposedly.

Romans 7 is helpful in that it illustrates to us the struggle of trying to serve God in our flesh and Paul then points us to the victory provided through Christ. Many times I've had failures in areas of the flesh whether it be through laziness, anger and other times with trying to serve Him in my flesh. I could go on and on. I'm not just talking about being tempted either. I've acted out and sinned. Does that make me light on sin? I hope not. I don't believe a true Christian should be in bondage and I'm not in bondage by the way, but I do fall short... but I get convicted and then call on the Lord to forgive and strengthen me in that area and ask for wisdom if anything needs to be done so it does not happen again.

As to my view of myself. I consider myself a sinner called by His grace to be Holy, sanctified and yes, a Saint.

BTW- I just listened to an awesome message by Carter Conlon today. It's called "The Groanings of the Righteous". It's a beautiful message which addresses some of what we are discussing.

Lastly, I hope I'm not frustrating you. I'm trying to understand your view but it's just not confirming. I'll reread it again and prayerfully consider what you are saying. Thanks for your patience. :-)

A Saint keep's God's commandments, a sinner breaks God's commandments.

So how are YOU doing with this?

Do you love God every moment of every day with every thought? and do you love your neighbor as you love yourself(with the same attention to their needs as you pay to yours).

There is a reason why Scripture condemns those who seek to be justified by the Law, because it can't be done.

The Pharisees kept the Law, but weren't saved. Actually, they didn't even understand the fullness of what the Law meant(i.e. the need for God to save man from outside of man).

I know that Ravenhill is kind of an icon here, but that view isn't responsible to Scripture, nor is it in line with the Law and its demands.

The Law demands perfection ALL THE TIME. There is only one way to get this ad that is by faith in the One who is always faithful and who has fulfilled the Law perfectly and having that put to our account as if we really were righteous. That's the Gospel, that God in Christ has done something to be both just and the justifier of ungodly people.

Jesus told this parable:

[i][color=CC3300]Lk 18:10-14 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’"

“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, [u]‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner[/u].’ "

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”[/color][/i]

Whether we cleave closely to God, or whether we stumble and stray, we should always acknowledge what we are without Him, that we may be ever grateful for His grace and mindful of our daily walk.

[i]Pr 11:2 When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.[/i]

I am just saying that a person who is born again has been changed. To be born again means that you used to be a sinner but now you are a Saint. You used to be disobedient but now you are obedient. You used to be unrighteous in your position and your practice, but now you are righteous in your position and your practice. Anything less than this is a false conversion.

But where is justification in all of this? What you are describing for the most part is sanctification, not justification.

By the way, I agree with these things to a degree, BUT my standing with God is not based on the things I do or do not do. It is based on Christ and His work outside of me.

Jesus radically saves sinners. He turns them into new men. Jesus is a real Savior from sin.

Absolutely He does! BUT this does not mean perfection in the ones He saves. A new nature comes into the person and as leaven in dough, begins to spread and change that person. Sanctification is a life-long process.

Read 1 John.

Yes, I have and also understand that it says that if you say you are without sin, you lie(not you in particular by the way). But, what is the sin that to death that John mentions? Is it not the denial of Christ and who He is and what He has done, which is part of the false teaching that John is addressing in that Epistle, as well as the thought that one could be a Christian and sin all they wanted apart from any struggle with sin?

See John has a particular idea in view when he wrote that, and to misunderstand that causes a lot of confusion over what is and what is not meant by that Epistle.

A Christian is someone who follows Jesus. Jesus lived a perfect life and He is our example. We are not following Christ while we are sinning! You cannot serve two masters. You are either sinning or you are a Christian, you are either sinning or you are following Jesus. You cannot do both at the same time.

Actually, you can and a lot of people do. For one, how many people pray with selfish motives but think they are following Jesus?

Also following Jesus is not how a person is saved. You can do all that Jesus would do, and actually think that God owes you because you are not as bad as other men(the Pharisee in Luke 18). Grace is offensive and it puts to death ANY hope in our ability to do enough for God to accept us.

God accepts ONE righteousness, and that is Christ's. If you have it, you are saved, if you don't, it doesn't matter how good your life looks, or how long you pray, or how much your read your Bible, you will be lost [i] because [/i] of your "goodness".

Hi Truefaithsav,

You distinguish the proper results of a regenerated life but you confuse (i don't know unintentionally or for the purpose of making your point)the term being called "Sinners" with the reality that all saints sin. It is true as you stated in your last post that we are Saints , born again as a new creature who have the power to live righteously. But you don't clarify that we still and will always continue to sin. We don't practice sin (as is states in 1 John) and we have the assurance of victory over sin but we will always struggle with sin.Jesus said The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
The title for you post seems to induce confusion. I understand your whole point was to discuss the nature of genuine conversion but it would be beneficial to for you to balance this truth with the reality that even though we're new we still have war with the flesh.

I understand your whole point was to discuss the nature of genuine conversion but it would be beneficial to for you to balance this truth with the reality that even though we're new we still have war with the flesh.

Truthinlove, you summed it up well. To clarify myself, I totally believe in the Victory given to those who call on Him. My life was so transformed that people from my church family find my testimony very hard to believe. It's given me many open doors to share Christ over the years. So yes I've experienced the delivering power of God... but to say I no longer sin anymore? My wife would roll her eyes at that one. :-) Again, I'm not in bondage but this old man continually has to be put to death every single day. I know this is true for every Saint of God.

Ro 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Ro 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Ro 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Ro 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Ro 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Ro 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Ro 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Ro 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Ro 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Ro 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Ro 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Ro 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Ga 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Do we believe?

Where are we perfect? In Christ by the Christ in us. That is why John can say, "If any man sin", we have an advocate with the Father". In the same epistle, say, "he that is born from above cannot sin". We cannot commit a sin of the Spirit for that is Christ, we can commit, "if any man sin", sin of the flesh, then we confess and are cleansed in the flesh, in our soul/mind and and the Father, "is faithful and just to forgive us and cleans us from all unrighteousness. Where are we cleansed? In our soul/mind. The Spirit of Christ cannot sin, that is where we are Perfect.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Our perfect is according to, "His working, which workfare in us mightily".

In the Flesh we are still able to sin and make God a liar if we say we have no sin. In the Spirit we cannot sin.

Ga 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Ga 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

This is the Spirit of Christ, not the Holy Spirit which dwells in our soulish part, Who is separate in the work being done and the One that searches the deep things of God.

Without the Spirit of Christ in us, we are none of His. The Holy Spirit will reveal all things that Jesus has said, and comfort us in this truth and revelation of The Christ in us.

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Only the Son can reveal the Father to us, and only the Father can reveal the Son to us. The Holy Spirit is the revealer. Where do we need revelation? In our soul/mind, not in our Spirit, for that is already perfect.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Who is the Teacher?

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

The Spirit of Christ is not the Holy Spirit.

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

That is why we are perfect in our Spirit because Christ is perfect and His Seed remaineth in us.
The Holy Spirit is working in our soulish part to impart the mind of Christ to us that we may be Holy even as He is Holy and know that we are son's of God.

In Christ: Phillip

truefaithsav wrote:
I would say that I dont usually sin. It is not my habit. Sin is not the overall characteristic of my life. Sin is the exception, not the rule.

Sin is always a choice; if you are sinning everyday, then STOP IT!!!

hi, Jesus dealt with sin on the cross; forever and what makes one a sinner is the first sin that Jesus didnt die for. not the lifestyle but the first.jimp

truefaithsav,

I believe this verse describes perfectly what you're getting at-
John 3:36 ESV Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

If you cannot even go a single day without sinning, how do you expect to go all of eternity in Heaven without sinning?

Because in a moment in the twinkling of an eye, this corruptible will put on incorruptible and that is why I and you will not sin in Heaven.

And yes you can be morally perfect before you get a glorified body. Jesus Christ was morally perfect before He got His glorified body. And He is our example which we are capable of following.

Compare this with the Law and if you can keep it, then you can be morally perfect. I don't understand how you can overlook that. There is NO ONE aside from Christ who has kept the Law perfectly, and this is why Paul said that if anyone had a right to boast, he did as he had kept what he thought was the Law.

Yet he goes on to say that it was all dung compared to Christ and His righteousness.

The idea that you need a glorified body in order to be morally perfect presupposes a Gnostic moral philosophy that sin is not a free will choice but sin is a substance of the flesh.

Actually it is a Scriptural view presupposed by the fact that the Law(God's moral requirement of man) is not kept by man at all.

Paul said that the Law is the taskmaster to drive us to Christ, not the means to be justified.

We are not justified by what we do or do not do, but by faith in what Christ has done for us. That's it.

As for the beings in Heaven, I don't know, Scripture doesn't say much about whether they can sin any longer or not.

roaringlamb wrote:

If you cannot even go a single day without sinning, how do you expect to go all of eternity in Heaven without sinning?

Because in a moment in the twinkling of an eye, this corruptible will put on incorruptible and that is why I and you will not sin in Heaven.

However, infact, your choice to sin is the cause of your sin.

And yes you can be morally perfect before you get a glorified body. Jesus Christ was morally perfect before He got His glorified body. And He is our example which we are capable of following.

Compare this with the Law and if you can keep it, then you can be morally perfect.

If it were impossible to keep God's law, then there would be no mandate to keep it. Furthermore, how do you think Jesus kept the law if we can't?

I don't understand how you can overlook that. There is NO ONE aside from Christ who has kept the Law perfectly,

and this is why Paul said that if anyone had a right to boast, he did as he had kept what he thought was the Law.

Yet he goes on to say that it was all dung compared to Christ and His righteousness.

truefaithsav wrote:
The idea that you need a glorified body in order to be morally perfect presupposes a Gnostic moral philosophy that sin is not a free will choice but sin is a substance of the flesh.

Actually it is a Scriptural view presupposed by the fact that the Law(God's moral requirement of man) is not kept by man at all.

Paul said that the Law is the taskmaster to drive us to Christ, not the means to be justified.

After one sins, then the law can not justify, but, if one chooses to never sin, then the law will in deed justify just as it did Jesus.

We are not justified by what we do or do not do, but by faith in what Christ has done for us. That's it.

However, if a man chose to keep the (spirit of the) law consistently (by faith) from the day of his accountability, he would indeed be justified by the law. This does not discount Jesus being Lord, but it does discount Jesus being Saviour, because He never had to save this man, because he never sinned.

As for the beings in Heaven, I don't know, Scripture doesn't say much about whether they can sin any longer or not.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
OK... I don’t have time to read this whole thread. Is the idea that someone can reach a state of sinlessness what is being put forth here?

If so, that is a lie. And it's easily refuted in the Word. C'mon folks.

Show me a person who claims that they do not sin and I will show you someone with a serious sin issue of pride... and self deceit.

Since sin is a choice, then one can consistently choose to not sin.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Logic... so you're saying that you do not sin?

I may sin every once in a [b]long[/b] while, hopefully not even once a month.

Hi all,

This is my first post here.
I, and others of my friends, have been really blessed by some of the things we have found and read on this forum in the last year, so thank you.

I can see where everyone is coming from in this thread, and agree that it is possible to avoid sin for periods in making deliberate choices to go against God's Word consciously, but at the same time I see that the struggle that Paul talks of in Romans 7 on indwelling sin is something that becomes more apparent the longer someone has been born-again, and the more they know of God the more vileness they see in themselves that needs to be denied, and the flesh mortified.
And if we have the commandment of Luke 10:27 (from Deut 6:5)to
'love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind',
are we really doing this, every moment of every day? When I read this I see more of how I fail in this way, but not in the same way that perhaps you are talking about in deliberately choosing to offend God.

Blessings.

ccrider wrote:

logic wrote:
"I may sin every once in a long while, hopefully not even once a month."

How do you determine this??

I sin when I premeditate to willfully, intentionally, volitionally do anything which I know I shouldn't.
I sin when I let my emotions take control.
I sin when I use my God given appetites in an unlawful way.

I determine that I don't sin when do the contrary to these.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Scripture says if you break even one point of the law you are guilty of breaking the whole law.

Therefore, sin once a month... once a decade... matters not. It makes you a sinner. Saved by grace, yes, but still a sinner.

[b]1Peter 4:18[/b] [color=990000]If the [b]righteous[/b] scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the [b]sinner[/b] appear?[/color]
There is a distinction.

If you are still a sinner, then you will not be saved.

You [b]will[/b] be delivered from sin, and your salvation complete when you shed this body of flesh.

Until that time you will struggle with sin.

The difference is that struggling with sin implies actually sinning off and on, while struggling with temptation to sin is not sinning but fighting the urge to give in.

I am appalled at the pride and arrogance that weaves through most of this thread. Listen to the Lord Jesus, and obey!

Jesus told this parable:

[i][color=CC3300]Lk 18:10-14 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’"

“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, [u]‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner[/u].’ "

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For [u]everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted[/u].”[/color][/i]

sin is a choice

Ok, so if someone is sinned against is it still sin? Would you define it as sin? They didn't choose it, so it would not be sin right?

Would it just be a random event that happened to someone?

For example, a woman is raped, is it sin [i]against[/i] her, or is it not? She did not choose it, yet she suffers the result of it.

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Romans 7:1

CHAPTER 7

1. The Law and its Dominion. 1-3.
2. Dead to the Law and Married to Another. 4-6.
3. Concerning the Law; its Activities and Purpose. 7-13.
4. The Experience of a Believer in Bondage to the Law. 14-24.
5. The Triumphant note of Deliverance. 25.
Verses 1-3.--The law is now more fully taken up. We have learned before that by the works of the law no man can be justified before God. But when the sinner is justified by faith, does he need the law to please God? Can obedience to the law produce in him the fruit of holiness unto God? What is the relation of the justified believer to the law? Is he still under the dominion of the law or is he also delivered from the law and its bondage? These questions are answered in this chapter. An important principle is stated in the first verse. The law has dominion over a man as long as he lives. The law has dominion over man (both Jews and Gentiles). The law, which is holy, just and good (verse 12) condemns man, his sinful nature and the fruits of that sinful nature, and in this sense it has dominion over every man and holds him in its grasp. But when death takes place, the rule of the law is broken. It cannot touch a dead man. The penalty of the broken law is death, when that sentence is executed, the law can have no longer dominion.

An illustration from the marriage law as instituted by God is given to make this clear. Husband and wife are united in a union till death dissolves it. The married woman is bound by that law to her husband as long as he lives. When he dies she is free and can be married to another. And we are become dead to the law by the body of Christ. The body of Christ means the death of Christ on the Cross. On the cross He bore the judgment which is our due. He bore the penalty and the curse of the law for us. "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us, for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree" (Ga 3:13). The penalty of the broken law has been met and the law is vindicated. Inasmuch, then as His death is our death, in that we died with Christ, the law can have no more dominion over us; "we are dead to the law by the body of Christ."

Verses 4-6.--The old union is dissolved. Death has done its work and it is now possible after being freed from the law to be married to another. In Galatians the question about the law and its authority is viewed from another side. The law was the schoolmaster unto Christ; now after faith is come, the full truth concerning redemption by the death of Christ is made known, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (Ga 3:23-25). Being then dead to the law by the body of Christ we are married to another. And this other One is He who died for us and who is risen from the dead. Justified believers are in a living union with a risen Christ; He lives in us and we live in Him. And the result of this most blessed union is fruit unto God. The law could not produce any fruit whatever but only death; nor can the legal principle bring forth fruit unto God in a believer. Ephraim was joined to idols as we read in Hosea. But Ephraim observed the Lord, heard Him and became like a green fir tree. And the Lord adds, "From Me is thy fruit found" (Ho 14:8). The parable of the vine and the branches (Joh 15) illustrates in a simple and blessed way the apostolic statement, "Married unto another--that we should bring forth fruit unto God." As the branch is in closest union with the vine and the sap of the vine produces the fruit, so are we one with Christ, and abiding in Him we bring forth the fruit unto holiness, the fruit which pleases God.

And "when we were in the flesh" (our former state) the passions of sins were by the law. The law by its holy character brings out what the natural man is and stirs up the passions of sins. But it is different now. We are delivered from the law and we can serve in newness of Spirit. We have a new nature, even eternal life, and in that we can render a true spiritual service.

Verses 7-13.--"Is the law sin?" is the next question raised. It springs logically from the statement that the passions of sins, coming out of an evil, sinful heart, were by the law and bringing forth fruit unto death. Still another "God forbid" is the answer. The law was given that we might have through that law the knowledge of sin. "I had not known sin, but by the law." I would not be conscious of lust, unless the law said, "Thou shalt not covet." The law given by a holy God is God's detective. The law forbids and the commandment at once brings out what is in the heart of man. Therefore, no blame can be put upon the law. Sin is that which must be blamed. Sin is lawlessness, rebellion against God and the law brings out that rebellion. Therefore apart from the law sin was dead, that is, dormant. But as soon as the commandment is given, the evil heart rebels against it and man is detected to be a sinner and a transgressor. Let us notice the change of the pronoun "we" to "I." Some thirty times this little word "I" is found in verses 7-25. We are brought upon the ground of personal experience; it has to be discovered and learned experimentally. The Apostle personifies this experience and speaks thus personally describing how a believer learns the lessons about the law, how the law cannot help a justified believer, and but makes of him a wretched man. It must also have been his own experience.

"For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." This is the experience of a man who is ignorant of the spirituality of the law. He thinks himself alive, but when the commandment came, its spiritual demands realized (the law is spiritual, verse 14), the false notion of being alive was detected, for sin revived and he died, which means that sin, discovered by the law, condemned him to death. "And the commandment which was unto life was found for me to be unto death." In connection with the commandment, the law, it is written, "This do, and thou shalt live." And so in this experience--he tries next to get life by the law, but he found it was unto death, for the declaration of the law is "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them" (Ga 3:10; De 27:26). He speaks of sin, his evil nature, as one who had deceived him into all this, so that the law could manifest its power in slaying him. Verse 12 is the real answer to the question, "Is the law sin?" The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just and good. And because the law is holy it gives knowledge of sin and detects sin, bringing it to light in all its hideousness and then pronounces the sentence of death. One other question is asked, "Was then that which is good (the law) made death unto me?" God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceedingly sinful." It all comes back upon sin (the evil nature, the flesh). Thus by the commandment sin becomes exceeding sinful.

Verses 14-24.--But all this must be learned by experience, especially the fact "I am carnal," the knowledge that in my flesh there dwelleth no good thing and that I have no power, I am powerless against indwelling sin. What person is it who describes his experience in these words? Some have applied it exclusively to the Apostle. Others state that it pictures an awakened sinner and not a converted man. The man described is born again, but is in bondage to the law and is ignorant of his deliverance in Christ. We find first the statement "we know that the law is spiritual." This is the knowledge which a true Christian possesses concerning the law. And the Christian who knows this great truth, that the law is spiritual, also has learned another truth. "I am carnal and sold under sin." Here then it is where experience begins. True Christian experience is to know our full deliverance in Christ and to walk in the Spirit; the experience of a Christian in struggling with the old nature and discovering what is that old nature, the flesh, is put before us in verses 15-24. That we have here a converted person is seen by the fact first of all, that he does not want to do evil, he wants to do good and cannot do it and therefore hates what he does. The carnal nature, the flesh, which is still in a converted person, is thus demonstrated as enslaving him, however, he is no longer a willing slave, but he hates that old thing which has the mastery over him. In hating it and condemning sin, he does the same what the law does, for it also condemns sin. In this way he consents to the law that it is good. The seventeenth verse is of much importance. "Now then it is no more I that really do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." He learns the difference between himself as born again, in possession of a new nature, and the old nature. He begins to distinguish himself as in possession of a new nature that wills to do good, hating evil, and sin in him, the flesh in which dwells nothing good, but all that is evil. "For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh dwelleth no good thing, for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." It is a great discovery to find out by experience, that although the believer is born again, he has a nature in him which is evil, which cannot bring forth a good thing. But the will is present with him to do good, because he is born again; however, he finds not the power in himself to perform what is good. And now the conflict between the two natures is on. It brings out some important facts. "It is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me." He as born again, no longer loves sin; he hates it. Because he does that which he does not want to do he can truthfully say "it is no more I that do it." Furthermore he delights in the law of God after the inward man. This can never be said of an unconverted man, but only he who has a new nature can delight in the law of God. But he finds himself in helpless captivity to the law of sin which is at work in his members. He finds out that while he has a new nature to will good and to hate evil, he has no power; sin is too strong for him. And this is to teach the believer that he must get power to overcome outside of himself. All his resolutions and good wishes cannot supply the strength to do. That he is self-occupied, seeking power by what he does and tries to do, is seen from the use of the little word "I." The name of the One in whom we have deliverance, Christ, is not mentioned once. The case is clear, it is the description of the experience of a believer, who is justified, born again, in union with Christ, dead with Him, risen with Him and indwelt by the Holy Spirit; but he lacks the knowledge of this and tries by his own efforts and in his own strength, through keeping the law, to obtain holiness. Having discovered that nothing good dwells in his flesh; that the flesh is not himself, but sin in him and that, because it is too strong for him, he is powerless, the cry of despair is uttered by him. "O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" He has reached the end of self. He looks now for deliverance from another source, outside of himself. The answer comes at once. "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord." In Him there is deliverance and what that deliverance is, we shall learn from the first four verses of the eighth chapter. The two laws are mentioned once more in the last verse of this chapter. With the mind, as born again, he serves the law and the law gives him no power; in the struggle with the old nature he is enslaved by the law of sin.

Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

"Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

We must reach the end of self as Paul did. Being delivered from self righteousness, That source is outside of ourselves. Praise God, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In Christ: Phillip

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible Romans 7:1 CHAPTER 7

Thanks for posting this. A very well written commentary, IMHO.

Regarding the struggle with sin, I believe David Wilkerson's book titled "The New Covenant Unveiled" is an excellent book to read and study.
you can order it here:

[url=http://www.wilkersonpublications.com/The-New-Covenant-Unveiled-P7C0.aspx]The New Covenant Unveiled by David Wilkerson[/url]

[i]"I have yearned for an understanding of the New Covenant for years, believing it could prove to be the wondrous truth that's able to deliver a sin-bound church in these Last days of unprecedented corruption". "I pursued this truth diligently, reading every book on the subject I could find. But it was all too technical and mysterious. I wanted to see and experience the power of the New Covenant in my own life. If it's truly the secret power over the dominion of sin, it had to work in a practical way in my own struggle for purity of heart". I told God that it did not work in my own life, I could never preach it to others; it would be nothing but dead letter. I offered my life and ministry to the Lord as a kind of spiritual laboratory in which to test and prove the truths he was showing me. I can tell you, the unveiling of the New Covenant has been the most life-giving, sin-destroying truth I have ever known and experienced". - David Wilkerson[/i]

ccrider wrote:

By knowing what sin is and not doing it.
"Sin is the decision of the will…. sin is the decision to gratify a good appetite in a bad way." (Paris Reidhead)

I sin when I premeditate to willfully, intentionally, volitionally do anything which I know I shouldn't.
I sin when I let my emotions take control.
I sin when I use my God given appetites in an unlawful way.

I determine that I don't sin when do the contrary to these."

I see. So this full proof method leaves no doubt that everything is covered on your end.

That's great. And you obey the Holy Spirit at every prompt?

No resistance, no lagging, just perfect obedience just as Christ did?

I've found that asking the Holy Spirit to reveal anything hidden that I may be blinded to is a real eye opener.

[b]Psalm 19:12[/b] [color=990000]Who can understand his errors[/color] (mistakes)[color=990000]? cleanse me from those concealed to me.[/color]
Since there is no such thing as, "Opps, I sinned"
These "errors" which are hidden (or secret) would be those thing which are of human weakness (which is not sin), the things which we do with out thinking or unintentional.

IOW, who can understand the things which are flawed in our personality.

The reasoning is this:
If I sin unintentionally, then am I accountable to that sin?
No.
If I sin unintentionally, I don't have to repent of that sin, because I didn't do it of my own volition.
how would you repent of unintentional sins?

Repenting is turning away from a sin and never doing it again, ever.

How do you turn away from that which you were never towards in the first place?
How do you know that you will never, ever do it again if you did it unintentionally?

If you can’t repent from it, then it can’t be a sin.

It is impossible to repent of unintentional sins, for they are not really sins. Sure, they may seem to be sin (objectively) but from the heart (subjectively) they are not.

Do you punish a child who accidentally spills his milk?
No.
You do punish him for purposefully spilling his milk. That child must repent and never intentionally spill his milk again.

This goes a little further than a Reidhead quote or obvious biblical mandates.

I see some people who thought they had the 'sin thing' licked but their subjectivity blinded them to what others could see. Anyone who thinks they can count their sin think they may have very little of it. But these are only the sins they can see. If they have no help other than their own judgment, their fooling themselves.

It can't take that long to repent of all known and unknown sin (unknown, but revieled by friends & the Holy Spirit).
It can't take to long for the fellowship to point your sins out to you.

And you say that you sin hopefully no more than once a month? Stop that

ccrider wrote:

Logic
There is no such thing as a righteous sinner

Then you are not righteous. If you sin an average of once a month or once a year then you are not righteous but a sinner.

Therefore I am not a sinner.
Just because I might sin every once in a long while does not make me a sinner.

Logic
We are NOW delivered from sin.

Again you are not delivered as you have admitted to a sin problem by confessing that you sin around once a month.

What do you think 'deliverance' means? If it means we do not sin then YOU, by confession, have yet to be delivered.

Sin no longer dominates my life as it used to. One sin every now & then, far & few between does not equate dominion.

It is not my habit to sin, therefore I am not bound (in bondage) to it.

In all this, you are saying that you can't stop sinning.
As you say that, you are basically calling God a liar.
He says that you can stop sinning by the implication of His command to stop.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Jesus loves me... this I know.

It's no more complicated than that folks.

roaringlamb wrote:

sin is a choice

Ok, so if someone is sinned against is it still sin? Would you define it as sin? They didn't choose it, so it would not be sin right?

Would it just be a random event that happened to someone?

For example, a woman is raped, is it sin [i]against[/i] her, or is it not?

She did not choose it, yet she suffers the result of it.

Christinyou wrote:
Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
CHAPTER 7

4. The Experience of a Believer in Bondage to the Law. 14-24.

Manichaeism Theology teaches that mankind is a "battleground" for good & evil: the good part is the soul, and the bad part is the body (flesh) which is composed of Earth (the Earth part is true). The soul defines the person and is incorruptible, but it is under the domination of a foreign power (of the body/flesh)

This is also a form of Gnosticism.

What's your point?

My point is that sin is not just a choice, it is something we live with EVERY day of our lives.

We sin, and are sinned against because of the Fall. The wondrous inheritance we await is New Heavens and a New Earth living with Christ without sin either within ourselves or in others.

You cannot remove sin from this world and its existence without partially denying the glory that awaits us. Sin will be removed completely at the resurrection, the proof of that is that death shall be swallowed up as the last enemy to be defeated.

If it is as you say that you can be without sin, will you not die? Of course you will as a result of your sin and the sin that is in the world. All of creation groans to be released from the fallout of sin(rebellion against God) and we ourselves groan to be freed from these tents that bear corruption until that glorious day.

I await your answer to my question in the other thread.

Dear Logic,

You said:

Did you read my opening post?
I do not love sin.
I do not sin habitually.
I do not practice sin.
I am not under the dominion of sin.
I do not employ themselves in sin.
Therefore I am not a sinner.

The Bible narrates this while Jesus was teaching his disciples (believers):

Lk 18:9-14 [u]To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else[/u], Jesus told this parable:

[color=CC3300]“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘[u]God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get[/u].’

But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘[u]God, have mercy on me, a sinner[/u].’

I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. [u]For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted[/u].”[/color]

Logic, you talk like a Pharisee. Will you not listen to the Lord Jesus, as his disciples did?

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=30684&forum=36&1]Did you read this yet?[/url]

ccrider wrote:

As you say that, you are basically calling God a liar.

none of your rants will change my view.

To you not see the logic which I am posing?

1 John 1: 6-7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin.

God purifies us from sin but that doesn't mean were sinless or capable of it. Otherwise there would be nothing to purify from.

Sin is always a choice, therefore, one may consistently choose to not sin.
But you will also deny this for some unknown reason.

This implies that we cannot reach sinless perfection on our own.

We need purified, we need Christ.

2Peter 2:9 The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, but He does not know how they are to stop sinning...

Dear Logic,

You said:

Do you think that you can sin while walking in the spirit?

I ask in return:
Don't you think you should be humble when walking in the Spirit?

[i]Col 3:12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, [b]humility[/b], gentleness and patience.

Micah 6:8 And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to [b]walk humbly with your God[/b].[/i]

That was a teaching by the Lord Jesus to his disciples that I quoted in my last post (Luke 18:9-14), and he said we should be like the tax collector who humbly called himself a sinner. Are you ignoring Jesus' teaching? Are you saying Jesus is wrong?

roaringlamb wrote:

What's your point?

My point is that sin is not just a choice, it is something we live with EVERY day of our lives.

We sin, and are sinned against because of the Fall.

Now that I know I could never have not sinned, I am innocent of the charge.
Knowing that inability exempts from obligation.
And our inability was not brought on of ourselves but by Adam. For if our inability was brought on by our own, then we would still be under obligation.
Adam will be the only one in Hell with the Devil & his angles.

The wondrous inheritance we await is New Heavens and a New Earth living with Christ without sin either within ourselves or in others.

The flesh is a tool, if you will. What matters is how we choose to use our flesh & what we choose to put or affections (desires) on.
The flesh will give pleasure because of the senses. The flesh is amoral; it takes pleasure in what ever & however, good or bad, morally or immorally for it has no mind to discern. This is unchangeable, it will remain the same even after we are saved; the flesh needs to be done away with. That will happen in the resurrection.

If it is as you say that you can be without sin, will you not die? Of course you will as a result of your sin and the sin that is in the world.

All of creation groans to be released from the fallout of sin(rebellion against God) and we ourselves groan to be freed from these tents that bear corruption until that glorious day.

We only die spiritually from our own willful, intentional, volitional sin, for spiritual death is the wage of sin.

You are ignoring the question, Logic. Answer it honestly.

I repeat my question:

[b]That was a teaching by the Lord Jesus to his disciples that I quoted in my last post (Luke 18:9-14), and he said we should be like the tax collector who humbly called himself a sinner. Are you ignoring Jesus' teaching? Are you saying Jesus is wrong?[/b]

Leo_Grace wrote:
You are ignoring the question, Logic. Answer it honestly.

I always answer honestly, don't think that I don't.

Leo_Grace wrote:

Do you think that you can sin while walking in the spirit?

The answer is NO.

I ask in return:
Don't you think you should be humble when walking in the Spirit?

That was a teaching by the Lord Jesus to his disciples that I quoted in my last post (Luke 18:9-14), and he said we should be like the tax collector who humbly called himself a sinner. Are you ignoring Jesus' teaching? Are you saying Jesus is wrong?

Just as the thief on the cross was not saved until he asked Jesus to remember him, the tax collector was only justified when he admitted his sin and knew he needed mercy, that is when he cried for it and received it.

Dear Logic,

You are evading the question. Whether the tax collector was saved or not is not relevant. [b]It was a lesson that Jesus was teaching to His disciples, and we Christians consider ourselves disciples of Christ, do we not[/b]?

I post my question for the third time. Please stop evading and answer it honestly:

[b]That was a teaching by the Lord Jesus to his disciples that I quoted in my last post (Luke 18:9-14), and he said the disciples should be like the tax collector who humbly called himself a sinner. Are you ignoring Jesus' teaching? Are you saying Jesus is wrong?[/b]

Brother Logic,

I know you've got a lot of people to answer, but I'm still waiting for you to answer my question from the other thread.

I'll just post it here for to make it easier on you.

Why should God let you into Heaven?

Leo_Grace wrote:
Dear Logic,

You are evading the question. Whether the tax collector was saved or not is not relevant. [b]It was a lesson that Jesus was teaching to His disciples, and we Christians consider ourselves disciples of Christ, do we not[/b]?

I post my question for the third time. Please stop evading and answer it honestly:

[b]That was a teaching by the Lord Jesus to his disciples that I quoted in my last post (Luke 18:9-14), and he said the disciples should be like the tax collector who humbly called himself a sinner. Are you ignoring Jesus' teaching? Are you saying Jesus is wrong?[/b]

[b]Luke 18:9[/b] [color=990000]And he spoke this parable unto certain who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:[/color]

The lesson of the tax collector is not that we should call ourselves sinners but that we should not be proud and trust in ourselves that we are righteous (from the law which we already transgressed), and despise others, just as the Pharisee was shown to do.

So, to answer your questions:

Are you ignoring Jesus’ teaching

Are you saying Jesus is wrong

Logic,

I'm curious how you understand the prayer the Lord taught to his disciples? Do you think "the Lord's prayer" is appropriate for a Christian to pray, since it contains a daily asking for the forgiveness of trespasses?

roaringlamb wrote:
Brother Logic,

I know you've got a lot of people to answer, but I'm still waiting for you to answer my question from the other thread.

I'll just post it here for to make it easier on you.

Why should God let you into Heaven?

God will let me into His heaven because I have a loving relationship with Him by grace through my faith in/on Christ & what HE said & done. (All what the atonement involves. The atonement did not save me, but this relationship does)
I am forgiven of all my past sins, and He will forgive me of the sins which I [b]MIGHT[/b] commit later.

I am justified by my faith for which I prove my faith by works (James 2:14,16,17; James 3:16-18) which are from my love for Him (I love Him because He has always been loving mankind from the start 1John 4:19)

I know that He will let me into His heaven because:
He has given me His spirit as a deposit (2Corinth 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:4, 13)
He is a Helper for us to live a holy, sinless life (Acts 1:8).
Furthermore, I know I am His because I love the brethren (James 3:16-18, 1John 3:14)
My faith is proven by my new view on life, new motive for everything that I do. In these new aspects of my life become actions or works that give a testimony of Christ in me.

Dear Logic,

I repost the passage from scripture here for everyone to see:

The Bible narrates this while Jesus was teaching his disciples (believers):

Lk 18:9-14 [u]To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else[/u], Jesus told this parable:

[color=CC3300]“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘[u]God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get[/u].’

But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘[u]God, have mercy on me, a sinner[/u].’

I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. [u]For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted[/u].”[/color]

Here, Jesus just told his disciples to follow the example of the humble tax collector who said: "God, have mercy on me, a sinner." Jesus wants all his disciples to have this attitude towards themselves.

Jesus did not say "don't be proud, be humble, but don't call yourselves sinners", which is what you are implying.

Your statement is double-talk:

The lesson of the tax collector is not that we should call ourselves sinners but that we should not be proud and trust in ourselves that we are righteous (from the law which we already transgressed), and despise others, just as the Pharisee was shown to do.

I am justified by my faith

So if you are justified(declared righteous) by your faith, why do you put so much emphasis on works(i.e. not sinning)as the means by which God accepts people?

What did Christ's death do?

I am only asking because it seems that some times you contradict yourself. Before you used to feel that Christ only died to justify Himself and that it had no bearing on the Christian(much like Finney), and I know we are all growing in our understanding of Scripture, I just want to be sure of where you stand on this, so I understand you better rather than jumping to unfair conclusions.

By the way, I don't think that a truly born again person would ever say, "awesome now I can sin all I want to!"(I'm not suggesting that you have implied that, I just wanted to clarify that point).

TaylorOtwell wrote:
Logic,

I'm curious how you understand the prayer the Lord taught to his disciples? Do you think "the Lord's prayer" is appropriate for a Christian to pray, since it contains a daily asking for the forgiveness of trespasses?

Corporately, I will relate with the bretheren and ask for forgivness just as Daniel did ([b]Dan 9:20[/b] [color=990000]...confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel...[/color]).

Furhtermore, I will not deny my sins (which I repent of quickly), therefore I will acknowledge them; and it does not hurt to ask for forgivness again as I already have.

Furhtermore, I will not deny my sins (which I repent of quickly), therefore I will acknowledge them; and it does not hurt to ask for forgivness again as I already have.

So, corporately, we confess our sins [b]daily[/b] (since the prayer is a daily example: give us [b]this day[/b] our [b]daily[/b] bread), not because we have actually daily sinned, but because it "does not hurt"?

Would you encourage children to ask for forgiveness every day for a sin they committed against their parents 5 years ago and of which they were assured pardon from their parents? I mean, it doesn't hurt, right?

I actually agree that Christians are not typically referred to as "sinners" in the Scriptures - the usual term is "saints". I'm just wondering how we make sense of certain passages if a daily warfare with sin is not a reality for the true Christian.

roaringlamb wrote:

I am justified by my faith

So if you are justified(declared righteous) by your faith, why do you put so much emphasis on works(i.e. not sinning)as the means by which God accepts people?

The being sinless part is only to justify God in His command.
Since God commands us not to sin, that implies we can stop sinning.
If you say that you can't, you call God a liar.
If you really can't, then God is a tyrant, commanding that which He know is imposible and condemning for what we can't do.

What did Christ's death do?

I am only asking because it seems that some times you contradict yourself. Before you used to feel that Christ only died to justify Himself and that it had no bearing on the Christian(much like Finney)

I do remember saying, "Christ's obedience to the law could do no more than justify himself. His obedience to the law can never be imputed to us. It is naturally impossible for him to obey on our behalf as a proxy.
This doctrine intends that Christ owed no obedience to the law for Himself, and therefore his obedience to the law was superfluous.
He was born under the law just as every other person. (Galatians 4:4-5).
Christ would have sinned had he not been perfectly obedient, if not obedient, he would have sinned. It follows that He owed obedience to the law, just as any other man.

Furthermore, if Jesus obeyed the law as our substitute, our own return to personal obedience would not be insisted upon us as an essential part of our salvation."

...and I know we are all growing in our understanding of Scripture, I just want to be sure of where you stand on this, so I understand you better rather than jumping to unfair conclusions.

By the way, I don't think that a truly born again person would ever say, "awesome now I can sin all I want to!"(I'm not suggesting that you have implied that, I just wanted to clarify that point).

Fact is, that we sin [b]because[/b] we choose to, not out of necessity

TaylorOtwell wrote:

Furhtermore, I will not deny my sins (which I repent of quickly), therefore I will acknowledge them; and it does not hurt to ask for forgivness again as I already have.

So, corporately, we confess our sins [b]daily[/b] (since the prayer is a daily example: give us [b]this day[/b] our [b]daily[/b] bread), not because we have actually daily sinned, but because it "does not hurt"?

Would you encourage children to ask for forgiveness every day for a sin they committed against their parents 5 years ago and of which they were assured pardon from their parents? I mean, it doesn't hurt, right?

I actually agree that Christians are not typically referred to as "sinners" in the Scriptures - the usual term is "saints".

I'm just wondering how we make sense of certain passages if a daily warfare with sin is not a reality for the true Christian.

Furthermore, it shouldn't be a daily warfare with sin, but of temptation which is the reality of it all.

hi, it is a wonderful thing to have people here who are greater than the apostle Paul who called himself the cheifest of sinners.jimp

Viewing Sin Rightly

“God wants us to walk in OBEDIENCE, not victory. Often at the root of our struggle with sin is that our ATTITUDE toward sin is more self-centered than God centered. We are more concerned about our own “victory” over sin than we are about the fact that our sins GRIEVE THE HEART OF GOD. We tend to hate failure because we are “success oriented,” NOT because we know our sin is an offense to a Person. We never see sin aright until we see it as against God. All sin is against God in the sense that HIS command has been broken, HIS heart has been violated, HIS authority has been despised, HIS government set at naught. Until we see this and deal with it we will not consistently walk in holiness. Focus on a life that is pleasing to our Father, and the joy of victory over sin will certainly be a byproduct.” (excerpted from The Pursuit of Holiness, by Jerry Bridges)
______________________________________________

Just something to consider
rdg

jimp wrote:
hi, it is a wonderful thing to have people here who are greater than the apostle Paul who called himself the cheifest of sinners.jimp

Does anybody read the Scriptures in context?

Since God commands us not to sin, that implies we can stop sinning.

You can go ahead and keep trying brother.

One thing I have noticed with yourself and others who hold a "sinless" doctrine is that things that are REALLY sin are changed into other things. Like when I asked you about your thought life, and you said that you weren't responsible for your thoughts. Yet Christ in Matthew 5 makes it a point to show His listeners that it is not just the outward act(adultery), but also the thought of it. He also made it clear that they were indeed responsible for it.

It made a way for Christians to be forgiven, and to have a loving relationship with the Father; it takes our guilt away.

But how does this make up for the Law being broken?

Christ's obedience to the law could do no more than justify himself

Why would Christ need to be justified? He was already without sin. The Biblical sense of justification is "to make righteous".

Are you saying that Christ needed to be made righteous even though He was God in the flesh?

His obedience to the law can never be imputed to us.

Ok, who fulfills it then? Who makes up for the broken Law prior to our faith? Does God simply overlook that?

It is naturally impossible for him to obey on our behalf as a proxy.

2Corinthians 5:21 ESV For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

So was it impossible for our sin to be imputed to Christ? Obviously, Christ committed no sin, so He was not made sin for Himself. He was made to be sin by imputation, so that His righteousness might be imputed to those who would have faith in Him.

Christ would have sinned had he not been perfectly obedient, if not obedient, he would have sinned.

I don't even know where to begin with this except to say, you have NO Scriptural basis for this and are in danger of denying the sinlessness of Christ. He was not sinless because He was obedient, He was(and is) God so He was sinless.

God died on the cross, to fulfill His demands, or as it says in Romans 4:25 "(Jesus)was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification."

Furthermore, if Jesus obeyed the law as our substitute, our own return to personal obedience would not be insisted upon us as an essential part of our salvation."

Personal obedience is not what saves us from God's wrath. Faith in Christ and His work is. We obey [i]because[/i] of what He has done out of gratitude.

It seems to me that you are saying we should obey so we can be right with God, or make Him accept us. That would be one of the most selfish things in the world, and also the most dangerous as it makes you the means of justification and pays no heed to Christ and His righteousness.

Fact is, that we sin because we choose to, not out of necessity

I don't know about that. There are times where someone says something to me, or does something to me and without thinking about it or choosing to, I have a proud thought, or a demeaning thought about that person. Or without thinking, I say something that is not loving and gracious and I didn't really put much thought into choosing to do it. It just happened.

rainydaygirl wrote:
Viewing Sin Rightly

“God wants us to walk in OBEDIENCE, not victory.

Furthermore, obedience is the victory over sin.

Often at the root of our struggle with sin is that our ATTITUDE toward sin is more self-centered than God centered.

The reason that one does not have victory over sin is because they doen't think he can have it.

We are more concerned about our own “victory” over sin than we are about the fact that our sins GRIEVE THE HEART OF GOD.

We tend to hate failure because we are “success oriented,” NOT because we know our sin is an offense to a Person.

We never see sin aright until we see it as against God. All sin is against God in the sense that HIS command has been broken, HIS heart has been violated, HIS authority has been despised, HIS government set at naught.

Focus on a life that is pleasing to our Father, and the joy of victory over sin will certainly be a byproduct.”

Thank you logic for sharing YOUR opinion on the excerpt I shared . As for me, I plan to ask God to help me view sin as He does so that I may truly learn to walk in His ways, focusing on Him and not self. I do believe God has given us victory over sin through His son Jesus Christ, but I also know that I contend with the flesh daily. That is why I want to learn to view sin as God does, every time sin comes up I don't want it to be about just choosing not to sin, but the realization that my actions will hurt the very person I profess to love, Jesus.
_____

Quote:

We are more concerned about our own “victory” over sin than we are about the fact that our sins GRIEVE THE HEART OF GOD.
____
You wrote in response to the above statement: This does no tmake any sense at all.
The only reason that we want victory is because sin GRIEVEs THE HEART OF GOD
__

My response to you is that sadly this is just not true, I know many professing Christians who do not even give one thought to the fact that their sin hurts or grieves God, they just don't want to end up in hell or they want to be looked upon as being a good person. Whether their actions grieve Gods heart or not never even enters into their minds.

rdg

Good evening all!

I think I would have to lean a little bit more toward Logic on this topic. I think Logic, if I have not missed it in trying to read this LONG thread, you began by trying to make a distinction between sinners (unregenerate, lost people), and those who have been made righteous by the blood of Jesus Christ. I would have to agree. We used to sing a song with the line, "I am just a sinner saved by grace." I always felt like asking, "Well, which is it? Sinner or saved by grace?"

First of all, there is no pride in accepting what God says of you as true and expressing it, no matter how unlikely it may seem to me. Who was the meekest person on the face of the earth???
Moses was. How do we know this? Because Moses himself said it. Numbers 12:3. Was it arrogance for Moses to proclaim this? Not at all. If it was what God said about Moses, then true humility is found in submitting to what God says.

Before I was born again, I was dead in trespasses and sins. After I was born again, I became a new creature. What does God say about me after I am born again. Romans 3:22, Romans 4:6, Romans 10:3 (This one is the counterpart of Numbers 12:3 in the new testament. We submit to the righteousness of God and do not try to establish our own. We take on His righteousness.) See 1 Cor. 1:30. 2 Cor. 5:21, We have become the righteousness of God in Christ. When God looks at me, His son, He sees me as wearing the same robes of righteousness as Christ Himself. I accept that, no matter how unlikely it seems to me sometimes.

I helps to understand, like Nicodemus in John 3, that it is my Spirit that is born again, that is perfected forever as in Hebrews 10:14. My mind is not perfected yet. Praise God it will be at the resurrection, but for now it is not. But, I can renew it, Romans 12:2.

Yes, sometimes I struggle with the flesh. I am always capable of sinning, and probably miss the mark way more often than I know. To him who knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin, right? It is also entirely possible that I can sin and not know I have done it. Has God ever revealed to you that something you previously thought benign was really sin? What would have happened if you had failed to confess that one, and what if there are more things??

Praise God I no longer live under the law. I live under a new covenant and a new priesthood. He took away the old that He might establish the new, Hebrews 8:13. Sure, if I fail to keep one jot or tittle of the law I become guilty of all. I don't worry about that because I am not under the law.

Paul? (I think so but some don't) said in Hebrews 10 that under the law there was a constant remembrance made of sins due to the inability of the law to ever purge sins. If the law with its sacrifices could have purged sins, then the offerings would have ceased to be offered. The offerings would have made themselves unnecessary. Jesus was just such an offering. He offered one offering for sin, and the worshipers, once purged, now have no more conscience of sins. You might even say no more awareness of sins.

You see, I live in the constant knowledge of who I am in Christ. It is not arrogant to say I am righteous, and it is not humility to constantly claim to be a sinner. I know my righteousness is not my own. How can I be arrogant in claiming to have received from God something I was so obviously incapable of doing myself? I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, and in recognizing this I have victory and power over sin. Have you ever tried to stop committing some sin by constantly thinking about how deeply you are mired in that sin? I have been forgiven, cleansed, set free, regenerated, filled with the power of the Holy Spirit, made a new creature, crucified the old man, and walk in the righteous state that Jesus shed blood to purchase for me.

In my opinion, that is the difference between saying I am a sinner and saying I am a saint. I will never again claim to be a sinner. I will call myself what Jesus calls me, a saint. I don't see that as arrogant, only accepting what was said of me by someone else (Jesus).

Is it still possible for me to be tempted and sin? Absolutely. Is it possible for me to live the next 50 years and never sin? Hmmm, I really don't think so. Praise God I have an advocate that has borne the sentence of my sin in Himself so that I can be free.

Well, that is my 2 cents.

Travis

This is a long thread, and I would like to summarize what I have gleaned so far:

Logic, who started this thread, says (I am quoting verbatim from his many posts):

1. Christians must NOT be be called a sinner!!!
2. I may sin every once in a long while, hopefully not even once a month.
3. There is no such thing as a righteous sinner.
4. Did you read my opening post?
I do not love sin.
I do not sin habitually.
I do not practice sin.
I am not under the dominion of sin.
I do not employ themselves in sin.
Therefore I am not a sinner.
Just because I might sin every once in a long while does not make me a sinner.
5. All I'm saying is that Christians should not call themselves sinners;

On the other hand, Jesus, while teaching his disciples, told them this parable:

[color=CC3300]Lk 18:10-14 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’"

“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, [u]‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner[/u].’ "

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”[/color]

Here, Jesus instructed his disciples to follow the example of the humble tax collector who called himself a sinner. Jesus wants all his disciples to be humble and honest about themselves.

Who are we to believe? Logic or Jesus?

Just for the record, I wanted to say that I do agree that as Christians, we are Saints. I agree wholeheartedly with that.

BUT, this idea in logic's mind(it seems) is void of any sense of remaining sin within the saint. This is a dangerous slope to be one as it will either produce self righteousness and arrogance, or it will produce hopelessness(I know because I have been through both, sometimes in the same day or hour).

The Biblical view is best summarized by Luther in his phrase- "simul justus et pecator"(at the same time justified and sinful). Anyone who is honest with themselves will see this.

As with many things in Scripture that point to a future consummation of a present reality we need to maintain the "already but not yet" view.

We are saints, but there is still a monster within that wars against the Spirit, to deny that is to deny Scripture. But there is coming a day in which that will be done away with in the resurrection. That is the hope we await.

Logic's view boils down to good advice, "do this, don't do that so that God will accept you"(similar to the song about Santa Claus by the way). Which is completely self serving and based on fear of judgment rather than love and produces an attitude similar to that of the older brother in the parable of the Prodigal; "all these years I have served you and you never..."

But the Gospel is Good News that Jesus Christ has done something so God will accept us. To this we respond in acts of service to God out of gratitude(i.e. those who have been forgiven much love much). There is no room for even hinting at our own righteousness, and we are more like the Prodigal who receives what the father gives him, and doesn't presume upon it because he did something to earn it.

After all didn't Paul say that Christ did what the Law could not do, [i]because[/i] it was weak through the flesh(i.e. bring about a righteousness that could stand before God)?

I agree RoaringLamb.

Also, the idea that if God commands something it must be possible for us to fulfill that commandment is not Biblically supported. In fact, a main argument of Romans and Galatians is no man can be justified by keeping the Law. Why? Because we can't. It's impossible for us to keep the Law perfectly. If we could, then Paul's statement that no man will be justified by the Law would be presumption.

But, what wonderful news it is that Christ has fulfilled the Law. He lived the life we should have lived, and died the death we should have died.

Does this promote ungodliness? God forbid. According to Paul's writing in Titus 3, this amazing grace is the very thing that motivates us to good works.

Taylor, Roaringlamb: I am not sure I got that out of what Logic said (It is hard to read 10 pages of posts and not miss something), but I do agree with what you have said. We cannot be lured back under the law by trying to do this or that, not do this or that, in hopes of appeasing or pleasing God in our own works. We cannot deny that we can and do sometimes still struggle with sin. I don't agree with a view of duality of natures (the well known white dog / black dog idea often incorrectly derived from Romans chapter 7 where Paul is expressing the futility of trying to be righteous by doing his best to keep the law), but I do know that the monster of the flesh and the still unrenewed mind are the arena in which we are tempted. There are important Biblical safegaurds that we as Christians should have in place that help us to overcome in these areas. (Obviously it is the Holy Spirit and His power that ultimately allows us to overcome) Such things as personal accountability by intimate fellowship with a local body of believers, regular disciplines of prayer and time in the Word, etc., help us to overcome in these areas.

In spite of all of these things, when I was born again God declared me righteous in His sight, and so that is what I am. I am no longer sinner, but saint. Having my own righteousness?? Never! Anything I can do in myself is filthy rags in God's sight. What I become through Jesus Christ is a thing of beauty in His eyes.

Is it possible that we are worried too much how we see ourselves and not enough how God sees us? The only way any of us can accurately see ourselves correctly is through the Light of His Word. When the Word of God is presented to us, it exposes the intents and motives of our hearts (Hebrews 4:12). I know I need that Word to expose me in that way because in myself I get blinded at times. So many times I've heard Christians say to 'forgive yourself' or to 'believe in yourself', etc. I don't believe the emphasis should be on how we see ourselves or how others do, but on how God sees us at the given time. My heart is deceptive and I need to be asking God how He sees me (ps 139:23-24). This trusting in self is dangerous and it's a form of psychology (self-esteem). I rather trust what the Lord is saying to me each day. I don't know about everyone else here but I know the Lord speaks to me through different examples in His Word. At times, He'll show me through His Word that I'm a self-righteous pharisee and that I need to repent. Other times He'll just let me know He's with me in the midst of my storm. So, for me
it's not always the Saints that he compares me to. So, it doesn't matter what I call myself (sinner or saint)or what anyone else calls me, but on what He says about me through His Word each day.

.... and before someone twists my words, we CAN enter His courts. But not because we are sinless, but because Christ was sinless. We are nothing, He is everything.

On your best day are your a dirt bag, and so I am. But praise God there is One who didn't sin, not even once a month. And because of Him we are accepted. Left on our own... to quote Keith Green... "HA!"

Amen.

This is a two(2) parter because of length.

roaringlamb wrote:

Since God commands us not to sin, that implies we can stop sinning.

You can go ahead and keep trying brother.

One thing I have noticed with yourself and others who hold a "sinless" doctrine is that things that are REALLY sin are changed into other things.

Like when I asked you about your thought life, and you said that you weren't responsible for your thoughts.

Did you read my example of Jesus having a thought of turning stones into bread?
It wasn't His own thought, becayse the thought was suggested to Him.
So it is with us, we get a thought, then we are responcible for doing what is right with the thought; to dismiss it or work with it.

Don't think of pink elephants.
Was the thought in your own head your own thought?

Now, if you were suggested a sinful thought, would you sin by that immediate thought?
Or would you only sin if you adopted that sinful thought as your own or even keep that thought to act on it?

If a thought comes to your mind, and if it is sinful, take control and put it out of your mind. you did not sin with that thought.

Jesus had a thought to turn stones into bread. He did not sin with that thought, He took control and put it out of His mind.

Yet Christ in Matthew 5 makes it a point to show His listeners that it is not just the outward act(adultery), but also the thought of it. He also made it clear that they were indeed responsible for it

Sorry if I seem to be repeating my self, but these are factual truths which can not be denied unless you deny reality.
One's theology must match up with reality as much as it does with Scripture; because Cripture tells us about reality.

It made a way for Christians to be forgiven, and to have a loving relationship with the Father; it takes our guilt away.

But how does this make up for the Law being broken?

The atonement acknowledges the true value and worth of God by the One who is sacrificed on behalf of the guilty.

However, to make up for the Law being broken, it needs to be satisfied with justice. This may be by a ransom being paid &/or by punishment of the criminal or both.
Both was done by the atonement.
Substitutional/proxy Atonement satisfies the law &/or justice so that God is free to forgive those who put their faith in/on what Jesus has said & done.

However, there is no possible way that anyone can have a substitute for punishment of a crime such as murder in a moral government judicial system as we have in society; For example, a father could never take a son's place in his execution for murder. Furthermore, a King could never let a law breaker go free as in the case of Daniel and the lion's den.
None the less, Jesus did in fact take our place in judgment through His sacrifice that He might satisfy the law as our proxy.

Now we must understand how God can be justified (Romans 3:26) in forgiving those who have broken His Holy Law without the guilty being actually sentenced (the sentence is spiritual death).

It is the sentencing of God Himself on another's behalf by deeming the offenders in Him as being sentenced themselves. And this is only by grace in the spirit of the law. Therefore, it is by grace through faith in the spirit.

Christ's obedience to the law could do no more than justify himself

Why would Christ need to be justified? He was already without sin.

The Biblical sense of justification is "to make righteous".
Are you saying that Christ needed to be made righteous even though He was God in the flesh?

His obedience to the law can never be imputed to us.

Ok, who fulfills it then?

Who makes up for the broken Law prior to our faith?

Does God simply overlook that?

It is naturally impossible for him to obey on our behalf as a proxy

2Corinthians 5:21 ESV For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

So was it impossible for our sin to be imputed to Christ?

Obviously, Christ committed no sin, so He was not made sin for Himself. He was made to be sin by imputation,

(1) It cannot be that he was literally sin in the abstract, or sin as such. No one can pretend this. The expression must be, therefore, in some sense, figurative.
(2) Can not mean that “he was made a sinner sin who knew no sin”, for it is said in immediate connection that he "knew no sin," and it is everywhere said that he was holy, harmless, undefiled.
(3) Can not mean that he was, in any proper sense of the word, [b]guilty[/b], for no one is truly guilty who is not personally a transgressor of the Law; and if he was, in any proper sense, guilty, then he deserved to die, and his death could have no more merit than that of any other guilty being; and if he was properly guilty it would make no difference in this respect whether it was by his own fault or by imputation: a guilty being deserves to be punished; and where there is desert of punishment there can be no merit in sufferings.
But all such views as go to make the Holy Redeemer a sinner, or guilty, or deserving of the sufferings which he endured, border on blasphemy, and are abhorrent to the whole strain of the Scriptures. In no form, in no sense possible, is it to be maintained that the Lord Jesus was sinful or guilty. It is a corner stone of the whole system of religion, that in all conceivable senses of the expression he was holy, and pure, and the object of the divine approbation. And every view which fairly leads to the statement that he was in any sense guilty, or which implies that he deserved to die, is "prima facie" a false view, and should be at once abandoned.
Just read Barnes Commentary for this verse.

...so that His righteousness might be imputed to those who would have faith in Him.

We are imputed as Righteous [b]by way of[/b] substitution through faith. By faith, we are baptized into his death or buried with Him by baptism into death (Rom 6:4)

Christ would have sinned had he not been perfectly obedient, if not obedient, he would have sinned.

I don't even know where to begin with this except to say, you have NO Scriptural basis for this and are in danger of denying the sinlessness of Christ.

He was not sinless because He was obedient

He was(and is) God so He was sinless.

God died on the cross, to fulfill His demands, or as it says in Romans 4:25 "(Jesus)was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification."

Furthermore, if Jesus obeyed the law as our substitute, our own return to personal obedience would not be insisted upon us as an essential part of our salvation."

Personal obedience is not what saves us from God's wrath Faith in Christ and His work is. We obey because of what He has done out of gratitude.

God insists our obedience; it is an essential part of our salvation because with out it, there is no fruit, the fruit is proof of salvation.

It seems to me that you are saying we should obey so we can be right with God, or make Him accept us. That would be one of the most selfish things in the world, and also the most dangerous as it makes you the means of justification and pays no heed to Christ and His righteousness.

Fact is, that we sin because we choose to, not out of necessity

I don't know about that. There are times where someone says something to me, or does something to me and without thinking about it or choosing to, I have a proud thought, or a demeaning thought about that person. Or without thinking, I say something that is not loving and gracious and I didn't really put much thought into choosing to do it. It just happened.

twayneb wrote:

Is it still possible for me to be tempted and sin? Absolutely. Is it possible for me to live the next 50 years and never sin? Hmmm, I really don't think so.

If sin is not a choice and we can not go with out sinning, then God is a tyrant for commanding us to do that which HE knows we can not do.

Which is it?
God is a tyrant or God is loving and commands us things which He knows we are able to do?

Leo_Grace wrote:
Here, Jesus instructed his disciples to follow the example of the humble tax collector who called himself a sinner. Jesus wants all his disciples to be humble and honest about themselves.

Who are we to believe? Logic or Jesus?

Furthermore, the Tax collector was not only being humble, but stating a fact, he was indeed a sinner. He employed himself in sin. He practiced din...etc...

We are not indeed sinners. We may stay humble stating the fact that we are not sinners.

Who are we to believe? Common sense or Leo_Grace?

Logic wrote:

Leo_Grace wrote:
Here, Jesus instructed his disciples to follow the example of the humble tax collector who called himself a sinner. Jesus wants all his disciples to be humble and honest about themselves.

Who are we to believe? Logic or Jesus?

The lesson of the tax collector is not that we should call ourselves sinners but that we should not be proud and trust in ourselves that we are righteous (from the law which we already transgressed), and despise others, just as the Pharisee was shown to do.

Furthermore, the Tax collector was not only being humble, but stating a fact, he was indeed a sinner. He employed himself in sin. He practiced din...etc...

We are not indeed sinners. We may stay humble stating the fact that we are not sinners.

Who are we to believe? Common sense or Leo_Grace?

Dear Logic,

Read the passage carefully -- there was no real tax collector. It was a parable that Jesus narrated to teach his disciples, so stop analyzing and rationalizing the spiritual status of the tax collector. Stop twisting the lesson that Jesus had for his disciples and for us. The lesson was regarding the correct attitude of the heart for disciples. A lesson for the believers (disciples) whom he was instructing at that time.

The lesson taught by Jesus is to be like the tax collector in the parable. To be humble and admit your sinfulness before God (as disciples) to be willing to call yourself a sinner (as disciples).

You may want to win this argument a lot, but don't try to win it by distorting Jesus' teaching. And don't preach against something that was clearly commended by Jesus in front of his disciples.

[i]When we finally get to face God, you can look Him in the eye and say, "God, I'm humble, but I'm not a sinner. In fact, I may sin every once in a long while, hopefully not even once a month, so I'm really not a sinner." "And I'm glad I'm not like Leo_Grace over there who is kneeling and crying before you for shame because of his many sins."

You might even add, "Leo_Grace never understood the wonder of your grace, God. Not like me, I understood it completely."[/i]

roaringlamb wrote:
BUT, this idea in logic's mind(it seems) is void of any sense of remaining sin within the saint.

Furthermore, the Remaining sin within the saint should not stay in his for the rest of his life, but all sin should be done away with within a few years of conversion.
Mankind is not that deep, we do not have so much sin that Jesus can not deal with it all with in a few years.

This is a dangerous slope to be one as it will either produce self righteousness and arrogance

or it will produce hopelessness(I know because I have been through both, sometimes in the same day or hour).

The Biblical view is best summarized by Luther in his phrase- "simul justus et pecator"(at the same time justified and sinful). Anyone who is honest with themselves will see this.

As with many things in Scripture that point to a future consummation of a present reality we need to maintain the "already but not yet" view.

We are saints, but there is still a monster within that wars against the Spirit, to deny that is to deny Scripture.

The "monster within that wars against the Spirit" is called our flesh's unlawful affections.

The flesh is a tool, if you will. What matters is how we choose to use our flesh & what we choose to put or affections (desires) on.
The flesh will give pleasure because of the senses. The flesh is amoral; it takes pleasure in what ever & however, good or bad, morally or immorally for it has no mind to discern. This is unchangeable, it will remain the same even after we are saved; the flesh needs to be done away with. That will happen in the resurrection.

We are born with a flesh that has natural desires that want to be gratified. Our flesh doesn't care if it is gratified lawfully or unlawfully, it just wants to be gratified.

to deny that is to deny Scripture

But there is coming a day in which that will be done away with in the resurrection. That is the hope we await.

Logic's view boils down to good advice, "do this, don't do that so that God will accept you"

But the Gospel is Good News that Jesus Christ has done something so God will accept us.

After all didn't Paul say that Christ did what the Law could not do, because it was weak through the flesh(i.e. bring about a righteousness that could stand before God)?

TaylorOtwell wrote:

The idea that if God commands something it must be possible for us to fulfill that commandment is not Biblically supported.

In fact, a main argument of Romans and Galatians is no man can be justified by keeping the Law.

Why? Because we can't. It's impossible for us to keep the Law perfectly.

This is possible to do consistently all the time.

If we could, then Paul's statement that no man will be justified by the Law would be presumption.

But, what wonderful news it is that Christ has fulfilled the Law.

He lived the life we should have lived, and died the death we should have died.

How can one be judged of sin when he could do nothing else?

Logic, you and are going to go round and round, and I really don't care to any longer as we are both going to come to differing destinations because we each have differing starting points.

You believe in an age of accountability, I do not.
You believe that man is sinless when he is born, I do not.

So I don't think we will ever agree on the state of man, and the way salvation works etc.

But I do take exception to your view of Christ, specifically in this statement-

Being God is not the reason for being sinless

I don't know if you are denying the sinlessness of God or not, but Christ was sinless before, during, and after His incarnation. He was not sinless because He fulfilled the Law perfectly, and actually, He broke the Sabbath a couple of times which really drove the religious types nuts. But Christ was and is God in the flesh, that is why He could say that He was the Lord of the Sabbath. He could break it without sinning as He was the one who initiated it, and because the point of the Sabbath had been completely abused.

If being God is not the reason for being sinless, then are you saying that if a person was born, and never broke the Law, they could be god-like, or even like Christ in His perfection?

Could they feed multitudes miraculously? Heal the blind, calm storms etc.?

It seems that you are coming into some dangerous areas if that is the case.

No, not a presumption, but a fact that we can not be justified by the Law when we already broke it.

Logic,

Paul says [b]no man will be justified by the Law[/b], which would include all future men. If it was possible for a man to keep the Law perfectly in the future (as you seem to leave open to possibility), then Paul could not have made this statement.

twayneb wrote:
We cannot be lured back under the law by trying to do this or that, not do this or that, in hopes of appeasing or pleasing God in our own works.

When we walk after the spirit we fulfill the (spirit of the) law.

fulfill the law is the effect of walking after the spirit.

but I do know that the monster of the flesh and the still unrenewed mind are the arena in which we are tempted.

It is not that we do not yet have a renewed mind because we currently have the mind of Christ (we are capable of knowing his mind and receiving the thoughts of his Spirit).

KrispyKrittr wrote:
If we say we have no sin we lie... and lying is a sin. This is Biblical.

You think you don't sin? Good for you

But you all keep doing this.

This thread is nothing but PRIDE PRIDE PRIDE... and it stinketh.

If we say we are without sin... WE LIE.

Going to get some Tylenol now.... have fun with your petty [b]debates over [u]nothing[/b][u/].

TaylorOtwell wrote:

No, not a presumption, but a fact that we can not be justified by the Law when we already broke it.

Paul says [b]no man will be justified by the Law[/b], which would include all future men. If it was possible for a man to keep the Law perfectly in the future (as you seem to leave open to possibility), then Paul could not have made this statement.

Logic wrote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:

No, not a presumption, but a fact that we can not be justified by the Law when we already broke it.

Paul says [b]no man will be justified by the Law[/b], which would include all future men. If it was possible for a man to keep the Law perfectly in the future (as you seem to leave open to possibility), then Paul could not have made this statement.

Yes he could.
Since the commands of God are not burdenseme (His laws are not unreasonable; the duties which he requires are not beyond our ability).

I don't think you really saw my point.

Paul said that no man will be justified by the Law. This means that no man in the future would be justified by the Law. But, if it is possible to perfectly keep the Law (and thus be justified), Paul would have been presumptuous to make this statement, because, for all he knew, one of us in the future could have had our act together and kept the Law perfectly (thus being justified by the Law).

Leo_Grace wrote:

Read the passage carefully -- there was no real tax collector.

It was a parable that Jesus narrated to teach his disciples, so stop analyzing and rationalizing the spiritual status of the tax collector.

Stop twisting the lesson that Jesus had for his disciples and for us

The lesson was regarding the correct attitude of the heart for disciples.

The Pharisee, on the other hand, thought he was righteous by what he did in comparison to the sinner.
The Pharisee missed the fact that we was just as unrighteous as the tax collector because he was relying on what he did and who he was for the basis of his righteousness.

You may want to win this argument a lot,

True, we must be humble, but not to the point of denying facts.
We are not in fact sinners, it would be false humility to call yourself one.

And don't preach against something that was clearly commended by Jesus in front of his disciples.

TaylorOtwell wrote:
I don't think you really saw my point.

Paul said that no man will be justified by the Law. This means that no man in the future would be justified by the Law.

But, if it is possible to perfectly keep the Law (and thus be justified), Paul would have been presumptuous to make this statement,

There is no implication that it is not posible to perfectly keep the Law and thus be justified by it.

All it implies that those who have already sinned can not be justified by the law.

The fact it that Jesus was indeed justified by the law because He was 100% human with the very exact same flesh as we have?
Therefore, since Jesus did it, we are able.
Jeuss was human, we are also.
What Jesus did, we are also able.

Logic wrote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:
I don't think you really saw my point.

I did.

Paul said that no man will be justified by the Law. This means that no man in the future would be justified by the Law.

Since it is posible to obey God's commandments by the spirit of them, then no one can say as fact that no man in the future would would obey them copnsistantly and never transgress the law.

But, if it is possible to perfectly keep the Law (and thus be justified), Paul would have been presumptuous to make this statement,

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace.

There is no implication that it is not posible to perfectly keep the Law and thus be justified by it.

All it implies that those who have already sinned can not be justified by the law.

The fact it that Jesus was indeed justified by the law because He was 100% human with the very exact same flesh as we have?
Therefore, since Jesus did it, we are able.
Jeuss was human, we are also.
What Jesus did, we are also able.

But Paul did say it was a fact that no man would be justified by the Law, which includes the future. No man [b]will[/b] be justified by the Law.

If someone in the future were to obey the Law perfectly, it would make Paul's statement a lie. Paul could confidently say it because no [i]mere[/i] man can ever keep the Law perfectly.

I give up. This person, Logic, thinks he can be like Christ and live a sinless life. In fact, he considers himself just as authoritative as the apostle Paul and Jesus Christ, since he completely reverses their teachings and ask those who question him: Why not? Why should I be wrong and you correct?

There are better things to do than to try to explain things to someone like this.

Now I know why this verse is in the Bible:

Mt 7:6 [color=CC3300]“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs."[/color]

DeepThinker wrote:

He does when we apply Christ atoning blood to our lives

Curious, we?

ccrider wrote:

Indeed. But just the fact that one would entertain this thread indefinitely and not come to any certain end,

even in the face of complete disagreement and hostility...

which produces no understanding on the one's being lectured, speaks volumes.

Leo_Grace wrote:
I give up. This person, Logic, thinks he can be like Christ and live a sinless life

But you think God commands things which He knows is imposible. You make God out to be a tyrant.

TaylorOtwell wrote:

But Paul did say it was a fact that no man would be justified by the Law, which includes the future. No man [b]will[/b] be justified by the Law.

Logic wrote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:

But Paul did say it was a fact that no man would be justified by the Law, which includes the future. No man [b]will[/b] be justified by the Law.

Since God does not command the imposible, it implies that we are able to fulfill the law, and therefore be justified by it.
However, when we already have sinned, it is imposible to be justified by it.

You're still not seeing my point - so I'll move on.

You state that it would be tyrannical for God to command the impossible. I state that the Law was given for the primary purpose of guiding us to Christ. It is not tyrannical to command something impossible when the command's purpose is to drive the individual to the amazing grace in the Messiah. Actually, it is loving.

ccrider wrote:
"The fact it that Jesus was indeed justified by the law because He was 100% human with the very exact same flesh as we have?" logic

Logic I have two questions:

1. Who empregnated Jesus' mother, Mary?

And

2. Has any human on earth besides the Son of God been born from this type of conception?

Being born of a woman, however, shows us that He is human.

If Jesus was 100% human then what percentage of God was He as His Son. He was not born by the seed of any man.

There is nothing like Jesus that we are not like in our humaness.
Jeus was God in the flesh, but that takes nothing away from HIS being human.

For we have not a high priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our weaknesses...
...yet without sin (Heb 4:15) by choice; not by the fact of being God. Jesus had to be made like unto his brethren in all things (Heb 2:17)

ccrider wrote:
"I see it going in other directions which leads me to study further.
I see benifit." logic

Logic I would believe that if you would even hint that further study is something you care about for your own personal relationship with God and something you need as do others. But you come across as having all the answers so no one would see the 'benefit' as you do. I love ya bro but you can pose your discussions as someone who is trying to learn as well as give a voice of truth and discernment. I don't see this but it sounds like underneath you want some benefit from the opinions of others on this forum. I hope that's sincere. I wish to debate no more. I will rest in the fact that you want to benefit from these discussions and take your word for it even though I see no outward sign of such intentions.

I have learned alot from truefaithsav.
I have learned alot from those who understand the trinity better than I.
I have learned alot from those who understand prayer better than I.
I have learned alot from those who understand worship and praise better than I.

Logic, if you expected to earn respect for what you have done with this thread, you are mistaken. You have revealed yourself for what you are.

TaylorOtwell wrote:

You state that it would be tyrannical for God to command the impossible. I state that the Law was given for the primary purpose of guiding us to Christ.

It is not tyrannical to command something impossible when the command's purpose is to drive the individual to the amazing grace in the Messiah. Actually, it is loving.

Knowing that if one never transgressed the law, God would have no reason to condemn; is it, therefore, man's fault for going to hell if he couldn't do that which could keep him out?

Since the purpose of the law is also to teach us of the character of the Lawgiver also to guide us and to guard us while directing us to mercy of the Lawgiver, (Romans 7:13, Galatians 3:19,24), is it our fault for not being able to go to Him unless He, Himself does it for us?

How does God condemn if we are unable of our own volition?

There is nothing like Jesus that we are not like in our humaness. Jesus was God in the flesh, but that takes nothing away from HIS being human.

I knew we would get here sooner or later.

So basically, you are saying that we are born gods and able to perform miracles like Christ did?

Brother, please be careful, you are toying with heresy. I know that's a strong word, but that is what it is. You are following in the steps of Pelagius who basically said that we are all born as a "blank slate" and not at all impacted by the Fall. Of course he went on to say that Adam would have died even if he had not eaten from the tree that he was told not to eat of and he held a similar view of Christ that you are presenting here.

Pelagius was rightly declared a heretic by the Church of his day but sadly this comes back time and time again, because it is made popular by men like Finney who had more in common with the philosopher Emmanuel Kant than with the Bible(you should read Kant and his thoughts on the atonement in particular, and you'd swear you were reading Finney. Yet Kant was not a Christian).

I am glad we finally got to this point and now we can see that your view of Christ is off, and thus your view of salvation as well(trust me, I don't have all the answers, but I know enough of the Scriptural Jesus to know that either you are confused or teaching heretical ideas).

What's sad is that most people in the church are more concerned with men like Rick Warren while ignoring the influence of Finney which has a greater negative impact.

Now I'll get ready for the backlash because I touched one of the "sacred" ones, but it had to be said for the cause of truth.

ccrider wrote: Everyone who is born again is a saint. This is the qualification of the term in my opinion. Nothing more than this. When we start defining it in terms of how much or how little one sins we miss the point. When we start threads that seemingly demand that we make a choice between the term sinner or saint and debate on that rigid premise then we have cheapened Christ who is the sole reason we are called saints. Many people who are born again and say 'I too am a sinner' are not implying they are not a saint, they are saying that they are not perfected and spotless from sin or the POTENTIAL TO SIN. A born again christian will have a regenerate heart of flesh. How this process happens is wrapped up in relationship with Christ which is unique to each saint. It gets a little old when we start defining everything on one theological premise then start to compare our righteousness to the most ideal form of it's definition. I may struggle with sin more than one person and not as much as another. That doesn't mean I'm any more or less a saint than anyone else. There's a real danger in boasting of how little we may sin and just as much a danger in feeling defeated if we seem to struggle more than others. Don't look at your brethren or their theology to define your process of regeneration, LOOK AT CHRIST THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH. The One who paid the price to defeat sin and the works of satan is the One worthy of our attention in our journey in regeneration. If we have a relationship with Christ the natural byproduct of this is looking more like Him which covers and fulfills everything. Constantly conpartmentalizing attributes of rightousness and focusing on that can become dangerously self driven and takes the focus off of the Teacher, Counselor, and Advocate that we have in Christ. I will determine to let my relationship with Christ dictate my righteousness and the fruit thereof.

Amen! Well said.

If saying, "I am a sinner" is the same as saying, "It is still possible to be tempted and even to sin, and I struggle with this like any other Christian does", then I would have no problem with it. If what is meant is, "I am an unrighteous person who God sees as wretched. I am still just an old sinner", then I have great issues with the terminology. It is vital that we no longer view ourselves as what we used to be, but rather see ourselves through the lenses of Christ's atonement and what He has done for us.

roaringlamb wrote:

There is nothing like Jesus that we are not like in our humaness. Jesus was God in the flesh, but that takes nothing away from HIS being human.

I knew we would get here sooner or later.

So basically, you are saying that we are born gods and able to perform miracles like Christ did?

Pelagius was rightly declared a heretic by the Church of his day

Augustine's pack of lies was declared heretical at first and he was told to stop preaching them. Augustine's friends then started bribing an intimidating bishops. A gift of fine stallions worked with one. Pelagius was not condemned because he was heretical, but because Augustine was corrupt and had very powerful and wealthy friends.

I am glad we finally got to this point and now we can see that your view of Christ is off,

Gnosticism says that The flesh is evil/sinnful in and of its self, and the evil/sinnfulness was transfrered by sexual intercourse.

Manichaeism Theology teaches that mankind is a "battleground" for good & evil: the good part is the soul, and the bad part is the body (flesh) which is composed of Earth (the Earth part is true). The soul defines the person and is incorruptible, but it is under the domination of a foreign power (of the body/flesh)

Why is it that a so called "heresy" of mine is the one which is against the true heresy of Gnosticism/Manichaeism (yours)?
You’re calling that which I defend as heresy when your defending another?

What's sad is that most people in the church are more concerned with men like Rick Warren while ignoring the influence of Finney which has a greater negative impact.

William J. Keele said:
Pelagius is probably the most lied about individual in church history. You can go anywhere on the Internet and find a site claiming that Pelagius said men can save themselves by their works and don't need God's grace at all, but if you read his actual commentary on the book of Romans you will find that he taught grace much more so than Augustine (who is widely credited with saving the doctrine of grace from Pelagius the "heretic" who was supposedly hell-bent on destroying it). What you will find in reading Pelagius' own words (which is the only honest thing to do if you are going to be commenting on Pelagius in any capacity) is that Pelagius teaches a form of salvation by faith alone that is wide enough to include baptism and obedience to the teachings of the New Testament as parts of faith (probably by viewing faith more as trust than mere head belief), and that Pelagius very frequently speaks of the necessity of grace to salvation. He never once says that men can save themselves without grace. Read it for yourself and see how the famous Calvinist writers have been lying to you. The real disagreement between Augustine and Pelagius is on whether men are condemned to hell at the point of conception by inheriting Adam's sin (as Augustine teaches) or whether Adam's sin condemns only the body and the soul is not condemned until one personally sins (as Pelagius teaches), and on whether men are puppets and their salvation or damnation depends on predetermined deterministic fate (as in Augustine) or election is based on foreseen faith (as in Pelagius' view). Read it for yourself, and if you aren't willing to put in the time to read it, then never dare say "Pelagius was a man that taught...." because if you've never read what he wrote, you are just regurgitating lies that someone made up about him.

A nother man said:
Pelagius' theology was so much like the Early Christians. The Early Church debated against the Gnostic's. The Early Church taught free will, the Gnostic's taught a corrupted nature. In Pelagius' day, Augustine introduced semi-Gnosticism into the Church through his teaching of a "sinful nature" and "original sin". Pelagius refuted this error by holding to the truths of the apostolic Church during a time of apostasy. This commentary gives us insight into the views of Pelagius and the types of errors he needed to confront.

Augustine duped the church

Let's be fair here, there were at least THREE Church Councils that branded Pelagius and his views as heretical. They were-
-The Council of Carthage in 418 A.D.
-The Council of Ephesus in 431 A.D.
-The Second Synod of Orange in 529 A.D.

Here are the seven main points of Pelagius' beliefs(pay close attention to #7)-
1) Adam was created mortal, and would have died, even if he had not sinned.
2) Adam’s fall injured himself alone, not the human race.
3) Children come into the world in the same condition in which Adam was before the fall.
4) The human race neither dies in consequence of Adam’s fall, nor rises again in consequence of Christ’s resurrection.
5) Unbaptized children, as well as others, are saved.
6) The law, as well as the gospel, leads to the kingdom of heaven.
7) Even before Christ there were sinless men

Now as for Manichaeism, first and foremost, they do not even start from a Biblical viewpoint of God and His creation. It starts from a battle between light and darkness and each person has both light and darkness within. The goal of course is to be all light and since Christ is identical with the sun spirit, he is fighting against the devil and the forces of darkness.

It of course has elements of Gnosticism within, so now we must look at gnosticism.

The gnostics believed that the world was created by emanations from God, but not by God Himself as the Divine could not have anything to do with matter as matter was evil.

They believed that there was no way that God could come in the flesh and sought to purify their souls while living outwardly however they chose. Thus in 1 John the readers are exhorted to test these men and also that those who walk in sin as these Gnostics did could not be in the light as God was.

There are of course many branches of Gnosticism, so it is hard to pin down succinct beliefs, but one thing they seem to have in common is a view of Christ as "only appearing to be in the flesh". Thus again we can see that John was addressing this idea in his first Epistle.

Now how this has anything at all to do with the view that Paul teaches(i.e. man has both Spirit and Flesh at the same time) I don't know? Paul constantly exhorted the churches to walk in the Spirit and not according to the flesh, to put on the new man etc. The reason being most clearly put forth in this statement to the Galatians, "those who are in Christ HAVE crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."(Galatians 5:24 ESV) Again we see an [i]indicative[/i] and so he gives the [i]imperatives[/i](commands).

As for the idea that Adam's sin only affected him, one would have to argue with Paul when he says, "as in Adam all die".

It is true that Augustine prior to his conversion was under the influence of the Mani for a time, and after his conversion spent much effort in convincing Felix that Mani was wrong and actually wrote a work renouncing all of the teachings of Mani.

But none of this changes the flaw of the view you are positing here.

We as Christians based on the Scriptures have both the old nature within and the new nature within, they war against one another-
Galatians 5:16,17 ESV "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do."

Of course many take the word "lusts" or "desires"to mean something sexual, but the word "epithumeia" basically means "over desires". So we are constantly battling over desires for man's praise, relationships, or some other THING that will give our life meaning.

We look at things to justify our existence, even as Christians. There is a reason why idolatry in the OT was referred to as "whoredom" and "adultery". Of course Israel was trying to find comfort in its wealth, its alliances with other countries, or anything other than the God who had redeemed them from Egypt.

These traits are still in us even once we are born again. We desire things and put our faith in things and not God all the time, and this is sin. That is why I asked you your thoughts on this verse(which I never got an answer by the way)-
"For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin" (Romans 14:23 ESV)

God's grace to you friend

EDIT: I cleaned up the reference to the Galatians 5 verse as it was doubled in the post.

roaringlamb wrote:
Here are the seven main points of Pelagius' beliefs:
1) Adam was created mortal, and would have died,

Here is a Scriptural analogy of how the flesh that we are born with was never meant to be eternal.
Things made with hands are temporal.
Things not made with hands are eternal.
Our flesh & Jesus' flesh is temporal just as Adam & Eve's was to begin with.
These next few Scriptures are to explain this fact.
[b]Mark 14:58[/b] [color=990000]We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is [b]made with hands[/b], and within three days I will build another [b]made without hands[b/].[/color] (John 2:19)
Since Jesus was talking about His body as the temple, and He said it is made with hands, that means even Jesus flesh is temporary, and therefore, all mankind's.
[b]1Cornth 5:1[/b] [color=990000]For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house [b]not made with hands[/b], eternal in the heavens.[/color]
Now, since our "earthly house of this tabernacle" is temporal in contrast to the one which is not made with hands which is eternal, then we must know that is the same with Jesus in Mark 14:58. Jesus was born with temporal flesh that would have died in old age if HE never gave up His life on the cross.

[b]Ephes 2:11[/b] [color=990000]Therefore, remember, that you being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh [b]made by hands[/b][/color] (not eternal in value).
[b]Col 2:11[/b] [color=990000]In whom also you are circumcised with the circumcision [b]made without hands[/b][/color] (eternal in value) [color=990000], in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:[/color]
[b]Hebrews 9:11[/b] [color=990000]But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle [b]not made with hands[/b][/color] (contrast this with the temporal "holy place" made with hands in verse 24)[color=990000], that is to say, not of this building;[/color]
[b]Hebrews 9:24[/b] [color=990000]For Christ has not entered into the holy places [b]made with hands[/b][/color] (contrast this with the eternal "holy place" not made with hands in verse 11)[color=990000], which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.[/color]

[b]Rom 8:20[/b] [color=990000]For the creation was made subject to vanity[color=990000] (temporariness) [color=990000]not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope,
[b]:21[/b] Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption[/color] (Decay) [color=990000]into the glorious liberty of the children of God.[/color]
These verses are telling us that it was not Adam who made our flesh to be temporal but it was God. Adam only made the way to the Tree of Life inaccessible so to not live forever knowing good & evil.

2) Adam's fall injured himself alone, not the human race.

Adam is the Federal head of the human race only to a point. Just as the President is to the U.S.A; If the President of the U.S.A. Bombs N. Korea, so we all do. However, if President of the U.S.A. Murders someone, no one else is guilty of his crime, but himself.
The same goes for Adam.

3) Children come into the world in the same condition in which Adam was before the fall.

4) The human race neither dies in consequence of Adam's fall, nor rises again in consequence of Christ's resurrection.

5) Unbaptized children, as well as others, are saved.

6) The law, as well as the gospel, leads to the kingdom of heaven.

7) Even before Christ there were sinless men

Since Jesus was sinless, it is logical to say that other humans could have been also. Jesus proved it is possible. However, being sinless does not make them "godlike, but only innocent, justified and righteous, because they never lost these from sin. As one remains sinless, he must acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord and God of their life.
Being sinless for all of your life is the greatest way to glorify God.

roaringlamb wrote:

As for the idea that Adam's sin only affected him, one would have to argue with Paul when he says, "as in Adam all die".

We as Christians based on the Scriptures have both the old nature within and the new nature within, they war against one another-
Galatians 5:16,17 ESV "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do."

These traits are still in us even once we are born again. We desire things and put our faith in things and not God all the time, and this is sin.

Feelings are not sinful in & of themselves; no one can help what they feel. If they are not kept in check. Sin comes when feelings rule &/or be the judge, also when the feelings are doing the controlling & not being controlled.

Since Jesus was sinless, it is logical to say that other humans could have been also.

PaulWest wrote:

Since Jesus was sinless, it is logical to say that other humans could have been also.

Actually, it is the antithesis of logic, since the Bible clearly states that none are righteous, all have gone astray and that all have sinned and fallen short. To list all the corroborating scripture would be both a wearisome and ineffective task.

Can you prove able sinned?
Can you prove Enoch sinned?
Can you prove Job sinned?

Can you prove they didn't? That is the better question and since you are suggesting a view that is contrary to the totality of Scripture's description of man, the burden of proof lies on you.

I am actually sure that they sinned. If they had ONE thought that was not for God's glory, it was sin. If they had one doubt about God's goodness, they sinned.

As for Job, yes he did sin and that is why he said the following, "I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you;
therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” Job 42:5-6 ESV

No need to repent unless there had been something to repent of and seeing as he said the following words, "Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand" v.3 prior to his repentance, I would say he did sin.

Elihu also rebukes Job for his seeming righteousness and questioning of God and His ways.

As for the other two, you would have to show that they DIDN'T sin from Scripture and Scripture alone to sway me.

Enoch is not the norm at all, nor is Elijah, yet even Elijah sinned in his cowardice and was still taken up in a chariot of fire.

Dear roaringlamb and Paul,

I agree with both of you.

If there were sinless men in the world apart from Christ, they would be like Adam before he sinned. They could approach God the Father without needing Jesus as a redeemer, and they could go to heaven directly without faith in Jesus. They would be holy just as God the Father is holy.

If there were sinless men in the world apart from Jesus, then the gospel is no longer necessary. And it would mean Jesus was wrong when he said:

[color=CC3300]“I am the way and the truth and the life. [u]No one comes to the Father except through me[/u]."[/color] (Jn 14:6)

So we either believe that there are sinless men apart from Christ, and thus Jesus, his gospel, and the Bible are wrong; or we can believe the Bible.

So we either believe that there are sinless men apart from Christ, and thus Jesus, his gospel, and the Bible are wrong; or we can believe the Bible.

Amen!

The idea of sinlessness apart from Christ is what fuels the natural man and religion. All works based systems do not need Christ or grace to be saved, and they rest on their works.

Paul brings up an interesting point in these verses-
"For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Romans 10:2-4 ESV

Though he is speaking specifically of Israel, I think it applies to natural religion as well. There may be zeal for good outward works, but no sense of need for Christ and His righteousness.

Concerning that passage of scripture you implied, read this for the correct understandin.

And now I say to everyone reading this: Beware of what is going on here. Beware when the unimpeachable truths of God's Word are assailed upon, and as a justifying measure, supplemental information with lots of scripture references and italics are provided to "better understand" the aberration.

PaulWest wrote:
The correct understanding in alignment with the whole context of scripture, is that Jesus Christ was the only person who was ever "without sin", and to deny this is error.

Friend, this is where you are going, this is where you have been going, hence the "supplemental information" you've provided with easy reading to get a correct understanding in the mode of the [i]Watchtower[/i] and [i]Sabbatarianism[/i] literature.

What's with the Watchtower stuff?

Beware when the unimpeachable truths of God's Word are assailed upon.

Leo_Grace wrote:
Dear roaringlamb and Paul,

I agree with both of you.

If there were sinless men in the world apart from Christ, they would be like Adam before he sinned. They could approach God the Father without needing Jesus as a redeemer.

and they could go to heaven directly without faith in Jesus.

They would be holy just as God the Father is holy.

So we either believe that there are sinless men apart from Christ.

and thus Jesus, his gospel, and the Bible are wrong; or we can believe the Bible.

Can you prove able sinned?
Can you prove Enoch sinned?
Can you prove Job sinned?

Is this accepted as proof in this thread?
Romans 3:23 [u]For all have sinned[/u], and come short of the glory of God;

or this

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that [u]all have sinned[/u]

I also notice that Romans 5:12 addresses the origin of death in man. That would be the Word of God's view.

Perhaps Abraham Maslow's worldview has blinded you to your nature, Logic? The phrases associated with his logic are self-actualization, hierarchy of needs, and humanisticpsychology. He spoke of his discouragement near his death that the only truly self-actualized men he found were without morals. I think he referenced Hitler.

I am not saying or thinking you follow his "human wisdom" but the world of thinking is [u]saturated[/u] with his imaginations. His "way" is a case in point regarding our human nature: Man is (can become) his own God.

The very fight you are fighting for here also demonstrates our sin nature (born of blood, of the will of the flesh, of the will of man).

Surly you can see these elements in your reasoning. Eliminating them in no way eliminates the truth about the new creation.

roaringlamb wrote:

The idea of sinlessness apart from Christ is what fuels the natural man and religion. All works based systems do not need Christ or grace to be saved, and they rest on their works.

A sinless man needs Christ as Lord, because Jesus is Lord by fact. To deny Christ as Lord would be sin.
However, a sinless man would not need Christ as Savior. This is not bad, it is glory to God.

but no sense of need for Christ and His righteousness

Your error is assuming that one is a sinner before one actually commits sin; which make unborn babies guilty of something they never did. To be born unrighteous is a ridiculous, absurd, and senseless notion.

If your going to state that Adam is the "federal head", re-read, or just read my post which explains that.

JoanM wrote:
Can you prove able sinned?
Can you prove Enoch sinned?
Can you prove Job sinned?

Is this accepted as proof in this thread?
Romans 3:23 [u]For all have sinned[/u], and come short of the glory of God;
[/u]

Spiritual pride is like bad breath - sadly, the person who has it is usually the last to know.

This fruitless debate is over, the thread is being locked. Please don't PM with your objections. I am not closing this due to a bias for one side or another. I am convinced that nothing edifying will come from a further prolongation; and those who have participated have said all that's been needed. If minds and hearts aren't changed at this point, I don't believe they'll be changed after another 150 posts.

Brother Paul

Paul West said:

[b]And now I say to everyone reading this: Beware of what is going on here. Beware when the unimpeachable truths of God's Word are assailed upon, and as a justifying measure, supplemental information with lots of scripture references and italics are provided to "better understand" the aberration.[/b]

[i]Tit 3:10-11 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.[/i]