Did Jesus come already?

Yes another Eschatology thread. We need to always set the record straight.

Waltern your welcome to interact, but I would prefer that you simply state your case and not accuse me of being wrong. If you can't do that, don't post. Thank you

The purpose of this thread is to show that Jesus was truly a prophet in that what He said would happen did happen and the people to whom He was speaking to He was speaking to them and not in some future "generation".

I am going to present two obscure verses that most people glide over and don't take into consideration, and I will leave the rest up to you beloved to study and let the holy Spirit be your guide and not commentaries.

I know that the title is shocking. The very thought of anyone believing that Christ has already come sounds blasphemous. You know, the Pharisees thought Jesus spoke blasphemy when He told them that God was His Father, making Him equal with God. Notice how they put the Son and the Father as one. Ask yourself this question, if God is my Father and I am one with God, what does that make us? I'll leave that answer between you and our Father.

Now on to the subject at hand. Here are the verses to consider.

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

I can hear some of you now, "Read in context". Then by all means read it in context, most of us have bibles.

Have you ever believed something for so long and it became a truth to you? We all have. People will quote a verse that their Mother and Father said was in the bible and that verse is not there, but they will swear on a stack of bibles that it's there so that they can hold on to the memory of their parents instead of finding these things out for themselves. Most people who believe like that will never search for themselves. Why? Because they don't want to believe that their parents were liars, they don't want to face that truth. It's a painful journey to discover that what we have known to be truth has turned out to be error. It's a feeling of being undone, ripped apart, the carpet being pulled out from under us. I used to believe in a Post Tribulation Rapture teaching and I am glad that I no longer of that persuasion because I can't find any of the scriptures to support that lie.

Hi Dave, please refer to the first postings 2 verses, that is the question. But as to your question. I am neither, because there is no teaching of any "Great Tribulation period" purported by the "end time" teachers.

But please go back to the first post and comment on the verses.

To Deepthinker:

Matthew 16:28 states, "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Parallel passages are found in Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27.

The key to having a clear understanding of this is found in what immediately follows each of these verses. Jesus calls Peter, James, and John, takes them up to a high mountain and is transfigured before them while Moses and Elijah come down to discuss His coming death. Consider the things that point to this being the event Jesus referred to in Matthew 16:28.

Jesus "was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light" (Matthew 17:2). This matches the glorified appearance of Christ in Revelation 1:13-18 where "his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength" (Revelation 1:16).

Of Moses and Elijah, the Bible says that they "appeared in glory" (Luke 9:31). They did not just appear in a natural way but "in glory." Colossians 3:4 states, "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." This points directly to the coming of Christ in glory (Matthew 24:30).

When the disciples awoke, they looked at Christ and "saw his glory" (Luke 9:32). This is a very powerful statement. They saw the glorified Christ. They saw Him as King of Kings.

A cloud overshadowed them and the Father said, "This is my beloved Son: hear him" (Luke 9:34-35). This too points to the presence and glory of God in fullness and power.

Jesus told them not to tell of the vision until He had risen from the dead (Matthew 17:9). Ths vision was not for the time that Jesus walked on the earth before His crucifixion. It was a glimpse of His coming kingdom.

[color=990000][b]Peter, James, and John received a vision of the future kingdom and glory of Christ. They saw Him coming in His kingdom. It was to this event that Peter referred when he said, "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount." (2 Peter 1:16-18).

These three men were eyewitnesses of the majesty of "the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." What a glorious opportunity they had! What a glorious testimony they give!

His actual physical return in Glory is very near![/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

DeepThinker wrote:
Yes another Eschatology thread. We need to always set the record straight.

Waltern your welcome to interact, but I would prefer that you simply state your case and not accuse me of being wrong. If you can't do that, don't post. Thank you

The purpose of this thread is to show that Jesus was truly a prophet in that what He said would happen did happen and the people to whom He was speaking to He was speaking to them and not in some future "generation".

I am going to present two obscure verses that most people glide over and don't take into consideration, and I will leave the rest up to you beloved to study and let the holy Spirit be your guide and not commentaries.

I know that the title is shocking. The very thought of anyone believing that Christ has already come sounds blasphemous. You know, the Pharisees thought Jesus spoke blasphemy when He told them that God was His Father, making Him equal with God. Notice how they put the Son and the Father as one. Ask yourself this question, if God is my Father and I am one with God, what does that make us? I'll leave that answer between you and our Father.

Now on to the subject at hand. Here are the verses to consider.

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

I can hear some of you now, "Read in context". Then by all means read it in context, most of us have bibles.

Dear Lysa:

The "teaching" that I posted represents my own personal understanding of the Scripture that Deepthinker referred to.

If you disagree with the message, then please say something to me, because I stand behind it.

If you are trying to crucify the messenger (me) because I used anothers study that agrees with my beliefs, but you can find nothing wrong with the message that I quoted, then you are intent on shooting the messenger (me), rather than attacking the message.

That takes place very often on Sermonidex, doesn’t it?

I surely have no problems with anyone posting anything from anyone, as long as they stand behind what they post. How about you?

Sincerely,

Walter

Lysa wrote:
Walter,

I'm wondering if you EVER write anything yourself? You always demand that everyone support their disagreements scripturally. Well, how about you respond with your own thoughts throughout one whole thread?

Without plagiarizing other people or websites. Because all of what you wrote came from the following website... except for a few words in your second paragraph, it matches this website word for word.

[url=http://www.learnthebible.org/matthew-1628.html]Learn the Bible: Matthew 16.28[/url]

Dear Lysa:

What on earth are talking about? The teaching that I posted is taught by Dr. David Hocking, by Dr. Adrian Rogers, by Pastor Chuck Smith, by Ray Stedman, J. Vernon Magee, Dr. Michael Youssef and many, many other Pastors and men of God. It is not a “new” teaching. It is not "copyrighted". I could have posted Rogers teaching, or any of the others, and it would still be the same teaching, and the same meaning of what I have already posted. This is nothing new. Why is that? Because it is sound Bible Doctrine that has been taught since the beginning.

We have the Gnostics with us today, the same type of Gnostics that we had in the beginning. Men and women who have special “knowledge and revelation” and "understanding", something very "special", something “new” and something "deep". These Gnostics are more than happy to draw others into their lair, to share their special “knowlege” and “gifts” of prophecy and understanding with them. The problem is that once you come into their lair, you will no longer want to have a Bible. Why is that? Because now the words you hear and rely on are the Gnostics twisted words. You no longer have a hunger and a thirst for the Word of God, God's Spirit breated Word, that is only found in the Bible.

I choose to post the tried and the true. If you find fault with it, then respond with Scripture, to prove that what was posted is not accurate. Then we will have something to talk about. What you have done so far is throw stones at me, the Messenger.

You are upset at my post because it does not agree with Deepthinkers analysis.

Post what you think it should be and support it with Scripture. I will look forward to your doing that. Attack the message, not the messenger.

Sincerely,

Walter

Lysa wrote:

waltern wrote:
If you are trying to crucify the messenger (me) because I used anothers study that agrees with my beliefs, but you can find nothing wrong with the message that I quoted, then you are intent on shooting the messenger (me), rather than attacking the message.

Walter,

No, I am not trying to crucify you the messenger; I am just trying to get the messenger to see that by using references even a simple, [i]"I didn't write this but it represents my own personal understanding of the Scripture that you referred to Deepthinker...."[/i] [b]only strengthens[/b] his or her position.

To ADisciple:

I only post for one reason on the Sermonindex website. What is that reason? [b]To post Sound Doctrine—that’s it.[/b] I am not taking “credit” for anything. How can I? It is God’s Spirit breathed Word!

The things that I post are found in the Bible (and the many notes that I have throughout my own Bibles), as well as my Bible study notes that I have kept over the past 40 years. Today much of this same information is found on the internet. If the information is copyrighted, then I site the source.

Sincerely,

Walter

ADisciple wrote:

I choose to post the tried and the true.

That's fine, Walter, but Lysa is right. Whenever someone else's material is being used or quoted in a post-- or in anything for that matter-- it should be properly referenced.

It's a matter of respect and common courtesy... toward the person who authored the material, and toward those reading it.

...Unless, surely there isn't a hidden motive, and we are trying to get the glory and the credit ourselves for something that is another's?

AD

I'll try to make this short and simple and if this has been addressed then I apologize. Look at what Paul says in 2 Phillipians 2:

16Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have wandered away from the truth.

!They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.!

19Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his,"
...................................

In order for the resurrection to take place Jesus has to return. Paul implies that there is no need to stew over all this for the Lord 'knows who are His'. His foundation is firm and without the constant conjecture that detracts from our relationship with Christ. God will not cause confusion like Hymenaeus and Philetus. The bible says that these guys "wandered away from truth" via their own teaching. We have these kinds of guys today and all throughout history who want to rewrite the scriptures and destroy the faith of those who have hope in Christ and the coming ressurection. They have arrogant interpretations that presume truth and are easily accepted by those who believe that knowledge is in self proclaimed secret places. It spreads like gangrene and it was an obvious problem in Paul's time.

Can we see how the enemy would want those with weak faith to think the resurrection has come? This means that they were left out of God's plan and can now live the way the want.... 'eat and drink for tomorrow we die'. If there's no hope in resurrection then death surely awaits for those so deceived and satan's delusional ploy has worked perfectly.

To me Paul's implication is this: "all you need to know is that the Lord knows who are His and you can rest in this."

He will not leave us as orphans.... He will never leave you nor forsake you. He has sent His Spirit to us in order to testify to what is true. No longer will we need to shout 'know the Lord' for the Holy Spirit will testify of Christ and that we are His. Man will say 'the resurrection has past' and 'come over here, go over there, because Christ is there. No, He's in us, and if He's in us then the perishable will be raised imperishable regardless of when it takes place"

Christ's return will be the one event in history where there will be no doubts as to who is returning and why. It won't go unnoticed nor obscured by man in any way. A loving God will not allow His faithful Son to be mocked in this manner.

To ccrider, elharris and others who question the Rapture:

I realize that you sincerely believe that there is no rapture, and you have defended your position with Scripture. I believe in the rapture, and would like to provide Scripture that supports my position. If you disagree with my position, please provide Scripture to refute my post. Also, please respond to the message. If you do not like the message, then do your best to refute it with Bible Scripture, and do not be angry with. I am only the messenger!

When Christ comes again, at the end of the Tribulation, at His second coming, does the Bible tell us that He comes WITH His Saints, or that He comes to get His Saints?. Does He come to earth with the souls of His dead in Heaven, and call for the BODIES of the dead in Christ to rise first, and then call those that are saved and alive on the earth second, and then go back into heaven, and re-enter the earth again with His Saints, for His Triumphal entry?

[b]This is my personal “Bible study” on the (#1) rapture ,(#2) the Second coming (at the end of the Tribulation) and (#3)the Bema judgments for Christian believers [/b]

Paul spent 3 years, in the desert, face to face with the Resurrected Jesus Christ, who personally discipled him and taught him of the coming “rapture”. This rapture was followed 7 years later by the “Return of the Saints” (Galations 12:1-18). Also, when Paul was stoned to death, his spirit went to Heaven (where he learned “unspeakable words” and wondrous things)

Paul is the Apostle that references the Rapture of the Church, before the Tribulation, more than any other Apostle of the New Testament, or Prophet of the Old Testament. Christ revealed to Paul this revelation:

(2 Cor 12:1-7)
1. It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

In regards to the teaching of the Rapture, please note, as you look at the analysis of this prophesied event--- that Paul & Jesus Christ are the only ones who refer to the Prophecy of the Rapture, except in one verse-1John 3:2 , where John prophesizes of this event

In regards the “Return of the Saints”, at the end of the Great Tribulation ( another entirely different, separate event), please note that Old Testament Prophets [Zechariah, Isaiah, Joel, Amos, Malaki, Daniel, , inspired by the Holy Spirit] prophesied of this event, as well as Jesus Christ and, Paul, Jude (Jesus Christ’s step brother) Jude 1:14,15, .

[b]Rapture[/b]
Jesus coming for His Church/Bride up to Heaven, before tribulation. Luke 21:36; John 14:1-3; 1Thess 1:10, 4:14-17, 5:9; Rev 3:10

[b]Return with the Saints [/b]
Jesus coming with His Church/Bride down from Heaven, after tribulation. Zech 14:5; Col 3:4; Rev 19:7-8,14, 21:9-10; Matt 24:29-31; Jude 1:14,15; 1Thess 3:13

[b]Rapture[/b]
Caught up with Him in the air, in the clouds, 1Thess 4:13-18;
Return with the Saints
Jesus' feet touch the earth Zech 14:4; Rev 19:11-21, and he brings war, then peace.

[b]Rapture[/b]
Appears to Believers only. Mat 5:8, John 11:40, Heb 9:28
Return with the Saints
Every eye will see him, including unbelievers. Rev 1:7, Zech 12:10, Mat 24:30 Luke 3:6 John 19:37

[b]Rapture[/b]
Christians taken first, unbelievers are left behind a shut door. Mat 25:1-13; Rev 3:8-10; Rev 4:1, 1Thess 4:13-18
Return with the Saints
Wicked are taken first, Mat 13:28-30 the righteous (Tribulation saints) are left to populate the millennium.

[b]Rapture[/b]
Purpose: To present the Church to Himself and to the Father in Heaven, 2 Cor 11:2; Rev 19:6-9
Return with the Saints
Purpose: To execute judgment on earth and set up His Kingdom on earth. Zech 14:3-4; Jud 1:14-15; Rev 19:11-21

[b]Rapture[/b]
Purpose: to cast satan out of heaven (Rev 12) down to the earth, which will reveal Satan for the Tribulation as the man of sin 2Thess 2
Return with the Saints
Purpose: to cast Satan to the bottomless pit, to bind Satan after the Tribulation.
Rev 20:1-7

[b]Rapture[/b]
Happens in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, no war, globally. 1Cor 15:52
Return with the Saints

[b]Rapture[/b]
Christians are changed, and get spirit bodies, go to heaven and do not marry, and become immortal; Mat 22:30; 1Cor 15:52; 1John 3:2
Return with the Saints
People populate the earth during the millinnium, some people still die, not being changed to immortality as at the rapture. Isa 65:20

[b]Rapture[/b]
Jesus descends with a shout (for resurrection) and trumpet noise. 1Thess 4:16
Return with the Saints
No shout mentioned Rev 19:11-21

[b]Rapture[/b]
A resurrection takes place of all saints to immortality, to rule as kings and priests in Heaven over Earth 1Cor 15:51-54; 1Thess 4:13-18

[b]Return with the Saints[/b]

Resurrection of the tribulation saints to immortality who worship day and night in the temple of God. Rev 7:15, Rev 20:4-6,

[b]Rapture[/b]
Occurs as a thief in the night, at the 'no man knows the day or hour' festival of the Feast of Trumpets. Mat 24:43; 1Thess 5:4-6; Rev 3:3

[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Occurs at end of 7 years of Tribulation; exact day predicted; 3.5 years or 1260 days after the abomination of desolation: Dan 9:24-27, 12:11-12; Rev 11:2, 12:6,14, 13:5

[b]Rapture[/b]
Is likened to the abduction of the bride during the Jewish Wedding, and the union of the bride and groom, which occurs at the start of the 7 day bridal week. Gen 29:22-28, Judges 14:1-18

[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Is likened to the marriage feast, which occurs after the 7 day bridal week, returning from the wedding. Luke 12:36; Rev 19

[b]Rapture[/b]
The dead in Christ rise and together with then living will be changed into their new bodies and leave Earth with Jesus. 1Thess 4:14-16

[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Christians return with Jesus in already resurrected bodies riding on white horses. Rev 19:11-21

[b]Rapture[/b]
Jesus returns as a savior from wrath Luke 21:36; Rom 5:9; 1Thess 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10

[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Jesus returns on a white horse, full of wrath. Rev 19:11

[b]Rapture[/b]
For the Church only (those in Christ) 1Thess 4:14-17

[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
For redeemed Israel & Gentiles Mat 25:31-46; Rom 11:25-27

[b]Rapture[/b]

A message of hope and comfort 1Thess 4:18; Titus 2:13; 1John 3:3

[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
A message of judgment and woe Joel 3:12-16; Amos 5:18; Mal 4:5; Rev 19:11-21

[b]Rapture[/b]
Like the days of Noah and Lot, which show deliverance and salvation from judgement.
2 Peter 2:7-9, Mat 24:37-44

[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Like the plagues of Egypt, many of which are mirrored in Revelation, pouring out his Wrath, and He comes after the judgements.

[b]Christ is the firstfruits of the Resurrection.[/b]
1 Cor 15:20-23
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

[b]We (believers) are the firstfruits of the Spirit, that will receive our new resurrected bodies when he comes to get us at the rapture, as described above, and we will be like Him! The rapture takes place before the Tribulation and the “Day of the Lord”.[/b]

Romans 8:23-25
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

[b]When we receive our new resurrected bodies, we will be like Him![/b]

James 1:18
18. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures

[b]This is another description of the Rapture and the receipt of our new resurrected bodies:[/b]

1 Cor 15:52-57
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[b]This is another description of the Rapture.[/b]
1 Thes 4:13-17
13. But I would not have you to be IGNORANT, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[b]This passage describes what will happen when Christ comes back to redeem us to Himself. We will be perfect like Him in all ways! [/b]

1 Cor. 13:9-12
9. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

1 John 3:2
2. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.xxxxxx

[color=990000][b]Next, we find a description of the Lord'S SECOND COMING-- coming back to the earth WITH HIS SAINTS (that would be the resurrected Church, described above, from the RAPTURE). . This clarifies for us that there is more than one resurrection (Firstfruits of the Resurrection). First, the rapture and resurrection, that occurs before anit-christ is revealed, described above, and then another resurrection of the souls of those that have become believers during the Tribulation, that have been be-headed by the antichrist, AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION:[/color][/b]

Zechariah 14
1. Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah:[b][color=990000] and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.[/color][/b]6.And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7.But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

Sincerely,

Walter

elharris posted:

Dear Brother,

I can totally relate to what you said, about finding out that you are deceived. I also went through a very long period of what I can only call "UN-learning". And yes it can rip your heart out to find out you have been lied to.

However I also went through another period of realizing that I was in a position of not really knowing the truth. Therefore like you I also sought it and came to many wrong conclusions all on my own.

You can be deceived by others, who as I found out, do not mean to deceive you but have also simply just been deceived. But you can then also in your searh for the truth, and regardless of how deeply you may contemplate and search, often deceive yourself.

Sometimes, we jump to a conclusion of a matter simply because we have not taken ALL of the evidence into consideration. Not because we do this on purpose, but simply because our fact finding and knowledge is incomplete in an area.

I can't tell you how many times, I would be studying and come to a conclusion or think I really saw something, like EURIKA I'VE GOT IT! Be all thrilled with what I thought was a new revelation or understanding, and then later as I kept researching and studying find out I was WRONG as rain. I actually embarassed myself.

What's worse was I also spread my ideas around. But I also found that what I thought was such a great revelation, others had also come up with at one time or another.

You can take the Word and make it into just about anything by drawing a wrong conclusion, by simply over looking a few facts. And AGAIN most people DO NOT do this on purpose and most are sincerely looking for the truth.

[color=990000][b][u]Now like you I also believed in the whole pre-trib rapture thing. And also came to believe that was not true.[/color][/b][/u]

I believe that EVERY SINGLE VERSE OF SCRIPTURE HAS TO FIT IN CONTEXT WITH EVERY OTHER VERSE FOR A WHOLE AND COMPLETE NOT CONTRADICTORY UNDERSTANDING. And it ultimate comes down to not just context of passage, but context of book with book.

Therefore since I believe that, if I came to a wrong conclusion, another scripture would eventually point that out to me.

Then I would have to RETHINK my whole premise. And so sometimes I would just put things on a shelf for later.

I just became so use to finding things that others had taught me, that were in error, but I also became very use to being wrong myself. Point being I just want the truth no matter what it is and am willing to change my mind accordingly. But you have to believe and understand that you are just as able to deceive yourself.

I do not think God is afraid of you deceiveing yourself, I think it's all a part of learning. Because f you truly have a LOVE FOR THE TRUTH, and you continue in his word, eventually you will correct yourself. Unfortunately what has happened over the years, is men deceive themselves, come up with a false teaching and then teach it to others, start a big denominiation, and then have a very hard time recanting and then the error just keeps going on through their followers.

[color=990000][b][u]Now I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture as I once did. And the funny thing was, that many years before I came to the conclusion I was listening to a man on TV, that guy on Shepards Chappel. And he was saying the pre-trib was not true.

I had never even been given or heard of another "option" to the pre-trib rapture, and when I heard him that time, I remember thinking how "full of it" the guy was.

But 4 years later, I was studying and decided to go through every single verse (in context) of the RESURRECTION, and anything to do with being raised from the dead.

It was in that study that I realized the pre-trib rapture was not true. That we were not going to be in a RAPTURE, but that our hope was in THE RESURRECTION. But that "part" of that resurrection was that there would be people alive at the TIME of the RESURRECTION, that would be changed, and caught up without having to die.

And this aspect of The Resurrection, they take and make into an event OUTSIDE of The Resurrection in and of itself, thus perverting the truth, as well as putting it "before" the tribulation. You see, since they believe they are in a "speical" church, then anything Jesus taught about The Resurrection, does not apply, therefore they can give us a "special rapture" for a "special church", isn't that "special".

We DO NOT look forward or have a hope of a RAPTURE, but of a RESURRECTION of the Just, also called the first resurrection. But a small part of that is that WHEN it takes place, some will be alive and accounted worthy to be caught up with the raised dead.[/color][/b][/u]

So YES I can understand what you are saying about the verses in question Matt 16:28 and Luke 9:27.

But if as you say, Jesus has come already, then the resurrection of which he spoke is then PAST ALREADY.

First before I share that I do not believe this, I will tell you the conclusion I finally came to regarding the verses in question.

You have to realize that Jesus saw SPIRITUALLY. Meaning that he had eyes open into the world of the SPIRIT. Much like the following record.

2 Kings 6:16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, [b]open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

The fact is that WE ARE NOT ALONE!

EVER!

Besides the hosts of people we may SEE with our eyes, there is a host of "people" i.e. "angels" and "spirit beings", devils, that we DO NOT SEE!

Jesus came down to be a human being, so that he could be touched with the FEELINGS of our infirmities. One of those "infirmities" is the fact that we can TASTE DEATH. In fact one of the main reasons he came was to deliver those who through all their life time were subject to the FEAR OF DEATH.

Well WHO is and had NEVER BEEN subject to the fear of death?

The answer is ANGELS.

Deamons or devils, or devil spirits which are really just apostate evil angels, have NEVER TASTED, THE FEAR OF DEATH, because they are and always have been immortal.

While Jesus was standing there, he knew that there were more than just PEOPLE, that is "human mortal beings", running the show. He knew that behind the religious leaders who were condemning him and desireing to kill him were principalities and powers, the rulers of the darkness of this world, evil spirits in high places of authority in this world, BEHIND what the "mortals" he was talking to were doing.

Literally, there were angels, the devils angels, and most likely the devil himself present.

For as it states: Had the princes of this world, known the mystery, they never would have crucified the Lord of Glory.

This is also why Paul states: Know ye not that we shall judge ANGELS.

And how it is that we do not truly wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities against powers, but against wicked spirits at work in this world.

Hence these beings are REAL and were standing there with in and among the people Jesus was talking to.

Even in this day and time, I know very often that their are devils present and hearding and seeing what we do. I have many times rebuked them and told them to get out of my house.

Here is another lie which we have been taught in religion. This is that Satan has "already", past tence, been cast out of heaven. This is not true, for he still apears before God as our accuser, accusing us night and day, But Jesus is our paraclete our defence attorney on the other side.

Satan will not be cast down out of heaven until The Resurrection of the Just, when Jesus comes and calls forth the dead believers out of their graves, at which time they will receive new immortal bodies fashioned like unto his glorious body, the body of ANGELS. And "some" believers who are alive at that time WILL NEVER TASTE OF DEATH, AT ALL. For they will be caught up in the air with them, having never died.

But at the same moment that this all takes place, Satan and his angles will also be cast down to the earth, and his place shall no more be found in heaven.

This is big main part of the HOPE OF OUR CALLING.

Now I believe in what is called the law of reversals. And I see this in the Word all over the place.

In this case the Devil to be cast out of heaven to the earth with his angels must be STRIPPED of many if not all of his angelic powers.

For considder this O man of God, Brother, if we can be like angels, and someday have bodies like theirs, then WHY CANNOT the Lord, with whom anything is possible, condemn them to suffer by manking THEM as mortals.

I believe that as the elect become immortal, he and his followers become perhaps MORTAL. I also beleive that those who are accounted worthy to obtain that FIRST resurrection of the Just, take his place of authority as principalities and powers, but will be rulers of light on this earth, rather than darkness, when they not long after, he is cast down, return WITH the Lord, to destroy the devil, who with his angels was cast down to the earth, having great wrath, knowing he has BUT A SHORT TIME.

You see a REVERSAL!

When he is cast down to the earth, having been stripped of his immortality, he and his angles, become like men and CAN TASTE DEATH.

As it was said, if the princes of this world had known this mystery, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. We know that at one point, Jesus cast out a devil, that said "What have we to do with thee Jesus, have you come to torment us BEFORE THE TIME.

Devils or evil angels, knew that their time was numbered. They knew enough of scripture to know they would be tormented. But did they know their killing the Lord of Glory, would result in their immortality being taken, and that they would literally FEEL physical PAIN, and suffering and all the things they have subjected men to for thousands of years, having NO MERCY?

It is a JUST THING with God to recompence tribulation to them who trouble you. How just would it be for US to recompence HIM, that is Satan, and his followers, when we come with Christ to pour out God's wrath on the Beast and his kingdom.

But you see how a great earthquake will take place on the earth with the dead are raised from their graves. And the few living elect will be caught up with them in the clouds. And the devil and his angels thrown down hear to the earth.

And what will the people of the earth do? For the dead have been raised and many who were alive, were being sought and persicuted by them, will have been taken, while all these other supposed FOLKS (devils, evil angles make mortal) show up on the scene.

What an army that will be here on this earth. Even as "mortals", who could make war with them?

I personally believe, from my own researh and study of the Word, that the beast Satan himself.

And that the wound in the head, means having his angelic power and authority stipped. He is now still in a position of authority, but it's mortal human authority. Kinda puts a different slant to the term "Hell on earth", doesn't it.

You know people compute the number of the beast, and figgure out who he's going to be. But one thing that is always common when they speak of that number is that it's the number of the devil. Well what if it IS the devil.

Look here at what is said of him in the end. You ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO READ THE CONTEXT OF EVERYTHING. And many read this first verse but do not continue to read and see that in the end he will be but like a man.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. (to the GRAVE to "taste of death.)

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, IS THIS THE MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

I am sorry brother, but I cannot agree with you that the Lord has returned ALREADY. For I know that standing there that day were angels that have yet to be judged, and who were the the originators of all the evil, the men that could be SEEN were perpitrating.

Other have come up with the same idea in their studies, even as far back as the firt century.

2 Tim 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

AGAIN all believers should learn to read the context. Who were Hymenaeus and Philetus, but believers who were studying the scriptures, and came up with the idea that the Lord had already returned. For, for the resurrection to be PAST already, the Lord would have had to have returned.

Paul said that this doctrine they came up with would eat at the body of Christ like ganegrene, infesting the whole body.

Research Church docternal history, this belief led to Christianity thinking that they were to rule in the name of Christ on earth, with out the King, hince the RCC was born. This is what these kinds of doctrines lead to.

There is not kingdom of God in earth WITHOUT the personal presence of the King.

So all that I have stated here can be shown clearly in many many scriptures in context from Genesis to Revelation, without having to explain away any, or avoid any. That is the only way I finally these days make my mind up on something, by large portions of scripture.

You have to think about and think about deeply, the RAMIFICATIONS that take place when men falsely come to a conclusion that prophecy has come to pass when it has not.

When they do this, then they must also reinterpret everything else in the Word.

Regards,
El Harris

PS Walter, if you make it this far, again I have no problem with copy and paiste. For one thing if it's something you agree with and they said it good, who cares. I do however think that we oten rely too much on others ideas of what they think something means. And in doing so miss out on what God could help us understand from his word

Waltern, I have no clue as to what you are talking about. I never mentioned the word 'rapture' anywhere in my post. You even posted my 'raptureless' quote yet you say I question it. The heading of the thread was 'did Jesus already come'? One statement from the original post was: "I know that the title is shocking. The very thought of anyone believing that Christ has already come sounds blasphemous."

I was responding to this and this only. I find it entirely appropriate to entertain the original queries of the thread and not let it get lost in translation. Although I'm tempted to, I'm not going to bother explaining my point.

To ccrider:

If you will look two posts before your post, elharris stated that he believed in the Second Coming, but not the Rapture.

I was responding to elharris, and any other posters that responded after his post. If I included you in error, then by all means, I apologize.

Sincerely,

Walter

ccrider wrote:
Waltern, I have no clue as to what you are talking about. I never mentioned the word 'rapture' anywhere in my post. You even posted my 'raptureless' quote yet you say I question it. The heading of the thread was 'did Jesus already come'? One statement from the original post was: "I know that the title is shocking. The very thought of anyone believing that Christ has already come sounds blasphemous."

I was responding to this and this only. I find it entirely appropriate to entertain the original queries of the thread and not let it get lost in translation. Although I'm tempted to, I'm not going to bother explaining my point.

I guess I should have seen that brother. I'm truly sorry for the harsh post, I should have asked you if there was a misunderstanding before I jumped in. I need to work on that. Thanks.

cc-

To Christinyou:

Yes, I think that all Chriatian believers believe that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.

The statement that Deepthinker has made, that started this thread, is that Jesus Christ has already come again (his 2nd coming, at the end of the Tribulation).

Would you agree with Deepthinker?

[b]
Deepthinker posted:

Yes another Eschatology thread. We need to always set the record straight.

Waltern your welcome to interact, but I would prefer that you simply state your case and not accuse me of being wrong. If you can't do that, don't post. Thank you

The purpose of this thread is to show that Jesus was truly a prophet in that what He said would happen did happen and the people to whom He was speaking to He was speaking to them and not in some future "generation".

I am going to present two obscure verses that most people glide over and don't take into consideration, and I will leave the rest up to you beloved to study and let the holy Spirit be your guide and not commentaries.

I know that the title is shocking. The very thought of anyone believing that Christ has already come sounds blasphemous. You know, the Pharisees thought Jesus spoke blasphemy when He told them that God was His Father, making Him equal with God. Notice how they put the Son and the Father as one. Ask yourself this question, if God is my Father and I am one with God, what does that make us? I'll leave that answer between you and our Father.

Now on to the subject at hand. Here are the verses to consider.

Quote:
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Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
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Quote:
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Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
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I can hear some of you now, "Read in context". Then by all means read it in context, most of us have bibles.

Sincerely,

Walter

thank you brother philip, that blessed my socks off.

To elharris & Deepthinker, and others:

As we read Matthew 16 we realize that [color=990000]all of Jesus disciples were with Him on this day.[/color]

5. And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread.
(Matthew 16:4)

In Matthew 16:20 Jesus commands his disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ, the Messiah, the Seed of the Woman:

20.\tThen charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Matthew 16:20

In Matthew 16:24 Jesus again is referring to all of His disciples:

24.\t‘Then said Jesus unto his disciples”………………………….

Then, in Matthew 16:28 Jesus tells His Disciples that[color=990000] some of them, that are standing there with him at this moment----- that before they die, they will “see” the Son of man coming in His kingdom.[/color]

28.\tVerily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

[b]Six days later “some of His disciples” (Peter, James and John) (ie not all of his disciples, only some) saw the fulfillment of this prophecy before their very eyes:[/b]

(Matthew 17:1-8)
[color=990000][b]And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2. And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. [/color][/b] 4. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 6. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. 8. And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

On their way down the mountain, Jesus charged them ([b]the 3 disciples that he alluded to in Matthew 16:28)[/b] that they should tell the vision to no man, [u]until the Son of Man (Jesus Christ) arose from the dead (on Resurrection Sunday, the first day of the week, on the Day of the feast of Firstfruits)[/u]

Matthew 17:9)
9. And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. 10. And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

To simplify this for you, I will put it into a modern day setting.

I own a business and employ 12 employees. When I am talking to the entire 12, I tell them that there are some of them (not all of them) that I am talking to today, that before they die, will get a raise. Then, six days later I give 3 of my employees a raise. When the 3 receive their raises, I command them to be quiet, and tell no one.

I know that is an over simplification, but perhaps that is needed to bring clarity to this event for some.

Sincerely,

Walter

elharris wrote:
Hey Dave,

Dear Brother, thank you for you gracious disagreement.

However I would like to point something out if you don't mind.

You said:

Can I say respectfully that your conclusion that Jesus was speaking to angels and the unseen world is just conjecture and speculation. There is nothing in the text to suggest this and no reason for anyone who was present to consider this. Indeed if Matthew or Luke knew this to be so they would have made it clear for us.

However what Matthew does do VERY clearly is in the next verse (next chapter, but there were no chapter divisions in the original) is to say 'Now AFTER SIX DAYS Jesus took Peter, James and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain'. The transfiguration. So SIX DAYS AFTER WHAT? It can only be six days after he had just spoken to them in the previous verses about some not tasting death before seeing His kingdom. So Matthew makes a clear link between these events to show us they are connected, so we can understand what Jesus meant.

So what waltern posted makes sense:

Waltern made a statement, that what "immediately followed" gave the proper understanding of what those verses meant. However that interpretation was based on something that happened not "immediately", but 6 days later.

Walter never quoted or read what Jesus said in the SAME converstation as the verses in question, just 4 or 5 sentences previous.

Context deals with not only what is written after words but what is written before.

In this case what Jesus said in the same conversation and at the same time on the same day, would have a lot more bearing on what he meant, than what he may have done or said 6 days later.

You said: [i]Can I say respectfully that your conclusion that Jesus was speaking to angels and the unseen world is just conjecture and speculation. There is nothing in the text to suggest this and no reason for anyone who was present to consider this. Indeed if Matthew or Luke knew this to be so they would have made it clear for us.
[/i]

First of all the gospels are not written to always make everything Jesus said clear to us. They are simply a record of what he said and did. Jesus often spoke in parables and mysteries, which were only later revealed to his disciples, with much being not understood till after his resurrection. The writers of the Gospels rarely give and interpretation of what Jesus said, unless Jesus gave it.

Secondly Jesus from the outset, even before he actually started his ministry in preacing the Kingdome of God, spoke to angels, devils and the unseen world, for God himself is unseen. This was a constant pattern with him, way before the verses in question.

Thirdly, the previous context, just a few sentences before he spoke to the unseen world.

The verses in question are Mat 16:28 and Luke 9:27. However the same record is recorded in Mark 9:1.

As I said, Waltern looks at what took place 6 days later, rather than looking back in the same conversation for the interpretation or understanding.

Can we look here at what immediately preceeded what Jesus said.

Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

But he turned, and said unto Peter, [b]Get thee behind me, Satan:[/b] thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. [b]Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.[/b]

Every single person standing there hearing this at the time, is dead. The only one that would not be dead is Satan who was working on Peter, to try and undermine, what Jesus had been preaching.

I got to tell you that there have been quite a few times in my life, when I've had people talking to me, and I KNEW it was Satan (i.e. a devil spirit). I have addressed spirits in this manner before.

For instance I work with two children who are 6 and 11. There are times, I know I'm dealing with a child, and times when I know I'm dealing with something completely different. Since one child is a girl and the other a boy, I call the other entity at work Mr. Ugly and Miss Meany. These children get what I can only call "VILE". And what stares back at me through their eyes, I know is not them.

Jesus could not "just" have been talking to Peter, since the incident right before this, was completely on the opposite side of the coin.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

When Peter said this, he was speaking by the spirit of God. But when Peter tried to rebuke the Lord and undermine the truth, he was speaking by the spirit of the devil or Satan. The words that come out of our mouth determine what spirit we are speaking by.

At one point Jesus told Peter, that Satan desired to have him, so he could sift him like wheat. This showed that Satan had place at that time in Peter. These are invisible demonic spirits, and I am sure, that the devil did not leave it up to a subordinate to try and work in those closest to Jesus, to get to Jesus.

And again in Mark, the record is the same. And you should appreciate this, because of what you were saying about chapter and verse divisions. Because they split the same conversation off at the very last sentence and put it in Chapter 9.

Mark 8: 31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.

But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, [b]Get thee behind me, Satan:[/b] for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Mark 9:1 1 [b]And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.[/b]

Jesus spoke a lot of the Gospel in mysteries, that would only later be revealed after he was raised from the dead. This was why he spoke so many things in parable and mysteries.

1 Cor 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, [b]nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:[/b]

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 [b]Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.[/b]

Jesus spoke a lot of things in parables and mysteries, because he did not want the princes, satan, devil spirits, to know how they would ultimately be defeated, and what their ultimate fate would be. They had to conspire to possess men to betray and murder him, to murder innocent blood, so that he could be the perfect and fianal sacrifice for sin.

You know at that time people believed in the gods and in spirits and evil spirits, but they did not really know a lot about them. Jesus put them on display.

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility [b]and worshipping of angels,[/b] intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Jesus revealed that the demons or devil spirits, the principalities and powers, who pawned themselves off as "gods" to mankind were really just angels.

1 Cor 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, [b]they sacrifice to devils, and not to God:[/b] and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

Jesus spoke to the unseen world all the time. I don't think I need to put all the verses here, as you can type in "devil" in the Bible search, and see how many times he spoke both to the devil himself, and to demonic spirits.

When he said what he did to Satan, Satan would have thought he was talking to his disciples and wondered if the son of man was going to come into his kingdom in that generation.

I know he knew who he was talking to, but that he would not have done it directly. I can imagine how he felt about this being having dealt with him from the beginning. And now knowing that he was going to defeat him, but that he could not just come out and say exactly how or why, or it would thwart the whole plan.

But to get a little secret dig in, is something that we may all have done in situations with individuals, that we could not reveal our true feelings or the total truth of what we were thinking. And I believe this is what he was doing. Talking to one person but in truth you are really saying what you are saying for the benefit of someone else, and they go "HUH"?

Luke is a little different in that in the same event, he does not mention what Jesus says to Peter.

However the incident before has Jesus giving his 12 disciples the power to heal and cast out devils, and the incident right after the transfiguration, Jesus is rebuking a devil and casting him out of a young boy.

IF we can be made immortal, then there is no reason why an angel could not be stripped of his powers and made mortal. I believe that the first century believers knew this to be a truth.

Revelation speaks of the devil and his angels being thrown down to earth, and having but a short time. This seems to take place either at the same time, or shortly after the last trump, when I believe the resurrection and the gathering together of the living (called the rapture) takes place.

It says there that, their place is found no more in heaven, for that to be the case, then their power to FLY back and forth from earth to heaven would have to be taken away. Weather they be turned mortal, or just have their wings clipped, I don't know. But I do believe that they will get the opportunity to taste pain and death. That would only be "just".

Regards,
El Harris

made show of them openly.

Why don't you give us your interpretation of the scripture that you posted instead waiting for others to reply so you can 'correct' them

"There be some standing here that shall not taste of death till they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom".

Question: Are "some" of those that stood around Him that heard this alive today?

Question: Are we to interpret "death" to mean something spiritual? If so, then why only "some" and not all?

Question: Are we to interpret the coming of the Son of man in His Kingdom to that of the day of Pentecost?

Question: Or is Jesus saying exactly what He meant?

I notice that we pick and chose what we want to interpret when we don't understand something, but why is it that we don't interpret the Sun turning black and the Moon turning to blood? We believe exactly what He said concerning those elements, but we strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

Not being hard, sharing my thoughts, questions and ideas. Please do the same without accusations beloved.

To Deepthinker:

Jesus gave "some of his Disciples" a "vision" of his glory and majesty that would occur at His second coming, 2,000 years later.

Your interpretation of this event puts you on the outside of Christian Orthodoxy. However, the "spirit" that has revealed this to you, that "teaches you", does not agree with me nor the Doctrine found throughout the Bible, nor the Doctrine of the believing Church, since the beginning.

But, far be it from me to correct you on this issue, or the many other issues that places you outside of Christian Orthodoxy.

Sincerely,

Walter

DeepThinker wrote:

Why don't you give us your interpretation of the scripture that you posted instead waiting for others to reply so you can 'correct' them

I am not interested in correcting anyone, not my place, rather it is interesting to show forth ALL the scriptures instead of our pet verses that we use to support our doctrine. So far from what I have read. No one has really touched on what Jesus said, everyone has danced around it.

"There be some standing here that shall not taste of death till they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom".

Question: Are "some" of those that stood around Him that heard this alive today?

Question: Are we to interpret "death" to mean something spiritual? If so, then why only "some" and not all?

Question: Are we to interpret the coming of the Son of man in His Kingdom to that of the day of Pentecost?

Question: Or is Jesus saying exactly what He meant?

I notice that we pick and chose what we want to interpret when we don't understand something, but why is it that we don't interpret the Sun turning black and the Moon turning to blood? We believe exactly what He said concerning those elements, but we strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

Not being hard, sharing my thoughts, questions and ideas. Please do the same without accusations beloved.

Is it at all possible that you can refrain from posting in this thread. You are certainly free to post, but I would prefer that you did not. This is a discussion, please treat it as such. I've had run ins with you before and all you do is derail the thread with accusations. I am presenting scriptures that we tend to ignore, I for one don't want to be ignorant (though I've probably been labelled that). To call the Holy Spirit a deceiver is quite an accusation, for it is He that reveals what has been forgotten and Jesus even said that He would bring back to your remembrance whatsoever He has spoken. The Holy Spirit is to lead us into all truth. I would have to charge God folly if I sought Him for truth and He gives me error. He has always been my provider, when I asked for the Holy Spirit, He didn't give me a stone or a snake.

The important thing in seeking God is motive. What is the motive in seeking God? To solidify what you already know? or to lay before Him in truth and declare that we have nothing in our hands to give, but fill us with your truth. Fill us with what YOU WOULD HAVE US TO KNOW, not by what men teacheth. It's not what men say, but what saith the LORD. That is the living bread, that is what we live by every day that spoken word that God speaks to us from His mouth.

With Stammering lips and another tongue will I speak to this people.....but with all that..they still won't heed. That was the day of Pentecost, some heeded, but many fell back into their own pernicious ways, not acknowledging it was God behind it all. We have that crowd today resisting the Holy Spirit baptism saying that it died out in the first century. I thank God that I am outside of Christian Orthodoxy. Denying the New Testament Kingdom from entrance to our heart is a shame and a disgrace for those that profess Christ without it. This is the promise that Abraham was given, and it's forsaken even in this generation.

God Bless

To Deepthinker:

You are correct. This is a discussion, but it is taking place on a Christian Website. And what is the subject matter of this thread? Scripture & Doctrine.

The Doctrine that you present here has nothing to do with the Doctrine that is found in the Bible that has been understood and taught in the believing Church since the beginning. It is actually in opposition to the Doctrine found in the Bible, found in God’s Word, found in the teachings of the believing Church.

Ezekiel 33:6
"But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand."

[b]As a Watchman, I am called to warn the people. If I do not warn them, then I am held accountable. Therefore, I warn other brothers and sisters in Christ of the false doctrine that you are teaching here, and compare it to the Scripture. They are the ones to decide. [/b]

What does the Scripture tell us about those who would teach “another doctrine”?

Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly they are ravening wolves. .

Matthew 7: 21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 24:4-5
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Mark 13:21-23
And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Acts 20:28-31
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Romans 16:17-18
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Galatians 1: 8-10
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Ephesians 4:17-19
This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

2 Peter 2:18
For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

2 Timothy 3:1-7
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Timothy 4:2-5
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

[b]There are many individual powerful practices which characterize the methods of deception employed by false teachers, but the twisting of Scripture is universal among them.

Few, if any, people go into a cult or aberrant religious movement by reading the Bible alone, so they must have some help from false teachers and a false "holy spirit". These false teachers must come to terms with the authority of Scripture. They deal deceptively with this issue in several ways.[/b]

I am doing what God requires of me- exposing the false doctrine that you continue to teach on this website by your unending posts. How can what you post be from the Holy Spirit, when what you post is in contradiction to God's Word? And it is not just in regards to the present subject, but all of the others you have posted as well.

Sincerely,

Walter

(2 Cor 11:13-14)
13. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

DeepThinker wrote:
Is it at all possible that you can refrain from posting in this thread. You are certainly free to post, but I would prefer that you did not. This is a discussion, please treat it as such. I've had run ins with you before and all you do is derail the thread with accusations. I am presenting scriptures that we tend to ignore, I for one don't want to be ignorant (though I've probably been labelled that). To call the Holy Spirit a deceiver is quite an accusation, for it is He that reveals what has been forgotten and Jesus even said that He would bring back to your remembrance whatsoever He has spoken. The Holy Spirit is to lead us into all truth. I would have to charge God folly if I sought Him for truth and He gives me error. He has always been my provider, when I asked for the Holy Spirit, He didn't give me a stone or a snake.

The important thing in seeking God is motive. What is the motive in seeking God? To solidify what you already know? or to lay before Him in truth and declare that we have nothing in our hands to give, but fill us with your truth. Fill us with what YOU WOULD HAVE US TO KNOW, not by what men teacheth. It's not what men say, but what saith the LORD. That is the living bread, that is what we live by every day that spoken word that God speaks to us from His mouth.

With Stammering lips and another tongue will I speak to this people.....but with all that..they still won't heed. That was the day of Pentecost, some heeded, but many fell back into their own pernicious ways, not acknowledging it was God behind it all. We have that crowd today resisting the Holy Spirit baptism saying that it died out in the first century. I thank God that I am outside of Christian Orthodoxy. Denying the New Testament Kingdom from entrance to our heart is a shame and a disgrace for those that profess Christ without it. This is the promise that Abraham was given, and it's forsaken even in this generation.

God Bless

nasekom is correct! whew, glad we solved this one.

The Doctrine that you present here has nothing to do with the Doctrine that is found in the Bible that has been understood and taught in the believing Church since the beginning.

The difficulty in understanding this is "how" He came.

We have visions of grandeur about Christ coming back seated on a physical manifestation of a horse, and an Angel blowing a trumpet, and people coming out of the ground to meet the LORD in the air.

This mindset is no different then the first century generation when the people were expecting a Saviour that will free them from Roman oppression. That is what they envisioned the Son of David doing. But He didn't meet their expectations. The same will be true of this generation, because we don't go into the ground when we die. The body returns to the ground but our spirit returns to God who gave it. We who are alive and remaining shall be caught up to meet the LORD in the air, so shall we ever be with the LORD. The first resurrection has taken place. How do I know that? I'd tell you Walter but I don't think you care to know. That is why I am asking you to refrain. Can you do that? And that means not changing nics, that is called deception.

No.Jesus hasn't come yet.When He will there'll be no need to ask this question.it will be obvious.

Just to be sure, I do know what you meant.

Here is a question, why does Jesus have to come back?

Now when you try to answer that, consider these words of Paul.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh:[b]yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more[/b] . 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

To Deepthinker:

[b]The New Testament is consistent in its anticipation that the return of Christ might occur at any moment.[/b]

John MacArthur has written the following:

[url=http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/j00-11-1.htm]Is Christ's Return Imminent? John MacArthur, Jr.[/url]

Why is it so important to believe that Christ could come at any moment? Because the hope of Christ’s imminent coming has a powerful sanctifying and purifying effect on us. “Everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure” (1 John 3:3). The knowledge that Christ’s coming is drawing closer should motivate us to prepare, to pursue Christlikeness, and to put off all the things that pertain to our former lives without Christ.

The apostle Paul took this very line of argument near the end of his epistle to the Romans. He reminded the believers at Rome of their duty to love their neighbors as them selves, saying love is the one principle that fulfills all God’s moral commands (Rom 13:8-10). Then stressing the urgency of living in obedience to this Great Commandment, he wrote,

And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand.
Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust,
not in strife and envy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts (Rom 13:11-14).

That is the Apostle Paul’s wake-up call to the church. Christ’s return is approaching. The time now is nearer than when we first believed. Every moment that passes brings Christ’s return even closer. How are we to redeem the time? He calls for a three-part response that perfectly sums up the Christian’s proper perspective on the imminent possibility of Christ’s return.

Wake up! “Awake out of sleep,” he pleads (v. 11)—and he underscores both the urgency of this command and the imminency of Christ’s return, with four phrases: “now it is high time”; “our salvation is nearer” (v. 11); “The night is far spent”; and “the day is at hand” (v. 12). Time is short; opportunity is fleeting. The Lord is coming soon, and the event draws nearer every moment. The time to obey is now. The only time we can take for granted is now. And since there is no guarantee of more time, it is unconscionable to defer our obedience.

Consider this: The apostle Paul was stressing the urgency of this commandment in his day, two thousand years ago. He believed the coming of Christ was near—and getting nearer by the moment. How much more urgent are these things for our time? “Now our salvation is nearer” (v. 11)—two thousand years nearer, to be precise. Now is certainly not the time to let down our guard or fall asleep. Although some might be tempted to think the long delay means Christ’s coming is no longer an urgent matter, a moment’s thought will reveal that if we believe Christ was speaking the truth when He promised to come again quickly, we must believe that the time is drawing nearer by the moment—and the urgency is not lessened by the delay, but heightened.

It is perfectly natural for infidels, skeptics, and unbelievers to think Christ’s delay means He will not fulfill His promise (2 Pet 3:4). But no genuine believer should ever think that way. Rather than despairing because He tarries, we ought to realize that the time is nearer now than it has ever been. He is coming. As we saw earlier, His Word guarantees that He will come. Our hope should be growing stronger, not diminishing, as He delays his coming.

When Paul writes, “And do this, knowing the time” (Rom 13:11), he employs a Greek word for “time” (kairos), that speaks of an age or an era, not the time (chronos) told by a clock. “Knowing the time” therefore speaks of understanding this age, being discerning, like “the sons of Issachar who had understanding of the times, to know what Israel ought to do” (1 Chronicles 12:32). Christ rebuked the Pharisees for lacking this same kind of discernment: “When it is evening you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red’; and in the morning, ‘It will be foul weather today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Hypocrites! You know how to discern the face of the sky, but you cannot discern the signs of the times [kairos]” (Matt 16:1-3).

Perhaps Paul had seen signs of spiritual lethargy or dullness among the believers at Rome. No doubt life in that great city held many distractions and earthly enticements that drew hearts away from the earnest hope of Christ’s appearing. Like the society in which we live, Roman life catered to the flesh, offering many material comforts and earthly amusements. Perhaps they were inclined to forget they were living in the last days. Spiritually, they were falling asleep.

It sometimes seems as if the entire church today is in an even worse state of spiritual drowsiness. There is widespread indifference concerning the Lord’s return. Where is the sense of expectation that characterized the early church? The sad legacy history will record about the church of our generation is that as we neared the dawn of a new millennium, most Christians were far more concerned about the arrival of a computer glitch known as the “millennium bug” than they were with the arrival of the millennial King!

Too many Christians in our time have settled into a state of insensate lethargy and inactivity—an unresponsiveness to the things of God. They are like Jonah, fast asleep in the hold of the ship while raging storms threaten to sweep us away (Jonah 1:5-6). They are like the foolish virgins, who “while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept” (Matt 25:5). It is high time to awake from that slumber.

Paul sent a similar wake-up call to the church at Ephesus: “‘Awake, you who sleep, arise from the dead, and Christ will give you light.’ See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil” (Eph 5:14-16). Never was such an alarm more needed than today. In the words of our Lord Himself, “Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming; in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning; lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping” (Mark 13:35-36).

When Paul says “our salvation is nearer than when we first believed” (Rom 13:11)—he is speaking, of course, about the consummation of our salvation. He was not suggesting that the Romans were unregenerate. He was not telling them their justification was a yet-future reality. He was reminding them that the culmination of what began at their regeneration was drawing closer by the moment. “Salvation” in this context refers to our glorification, the final goal of God’s saving work (Rom 8:30). Throughout Scripture, this is connected with the appearing of Christ: “We know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him” (1 John 3:2). W e “eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body” (Phil 3:20-21). “When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory” (Col 3:4). “He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation” (Heb 9:28). Notice that the writer of Hebrews employs the word salvation the same way Paul uses it in Rom 13:11.

This final aspect of salvation is what Paul referred to a few chapters earlier, in Rom 8:23: “We ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.” That is the aspect of our salvation that is nearer than when we first believed, and it only awaits Christ’s coming.

So Paul’s penetrating appeal here in Romans 13 assumes that Christ’s return is imminent. If another eschatological age (kairos)—especially the Tribulation— were going to occur prior to Christ’s return for the church, Paul would have surely pointed to the onset of that era and urged the Romans to prepare for it. But far from warning them that a dark era of Tribulation was in their future, what he told them was virtually the opposite: “The night is far spent, the day is at hand” (v. 12). The kairos of persecution, hardship, and darkness was “far spent” (prokopto in the Greek text—meaning “advancing quickly,” or “being driven out”). Daylight—the final consummation of our salvation when Christ returns to take us to glory—is imminent.

We have no idea how much sand remains in the hourglass of human history. But we ought to realize that a lot of sand has passed through the hourglass since the apostle Paul said the dawning of daylight was already at hand. How much more urgent is this wake-up call for the church today!

The nighttime of Satan’s dominion will soon give way to the dawn of Christ’s coming for His own. The apostle Paul used precisely the same imagery of darkness and dawn when he wrote to the Thessalonians:

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess 5:1-9).

God did not appoint us to wrath. The day of wrath that shall come in the Tribulation is not what we are to be preparing for. The sudden appearing of Christ to take us to glory is our hope. Wake up! Be sober. Be alert. Your redemption draws near.

Throw off! The approaching of dawn means it is time for a change of garments: “Let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light” (Rom 13:12). Paul’s imagery evokes the picture of a soldier who has spent the night in a drunken orgy. Still clad in the garments of his sin, he has fallen into a drunken sleep. But dawn is approaching, and now it is time to wake up, throw off the clothes of night, and put on the armor of light.

The Greek verb translated “cast off” was a term that spoke of being ejected or expelled forcefully. The Greek term is used only three other times in the NT, and in each case it speaks of excommunication from a synagogue (John 9:22; 12:42; 16:2). So the term carries the idea of renouncing and forsaking sin (or the unrepentant sinner) with vigor and conviction. Paul is calling for an act of repentance. He wants them to cast off—excommunicate, or break fellowship with—the “works of darkness.” It is the same expression he uses in Eph 5:11: “Have no fellow ship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.”

Paul often employs the imagery of changing garments to describe the putting off of sin and the old man. “Put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts” (Eph 4:22). “Put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds” (Col 3:8-9). Notice the twofold putting off: “you have put off the old man with his deeds”; but keep putting off “all these” works of darkness. The picture this evokes is that of Lazarus, raised from the dead, given new life, but still bound in old grave-clothes that still needed to be put off (cf. John 11:43-44).

Employing similar imagery, the writer of Hebrews urges believers to “lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us” (Heb. 12:1). There he pictures the Christian like an athlete, stripped of all encumbrances and ready to run. There is much we must throw aside if we are to be prepared for the coming day. James sums it up succinctly: “lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness” (Jas 1:21). And Peter echoes the thought: “laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking” (1 Pet 2:1).

Put on! There’s another aspect of being prepared for the Lord’s appearing. We are not fully prepared for the dawn of the new day unless we have put on the appropriate attire: “put on the armor of light. . . . put on the Lord Jesus Christ” (vv. 12, 14).

Again, the imagery is that of a soldier who had spent the night in drunken carousing. He had stumbled home and fallen asleep in clothes that were now wrinkled and befouled with the evidence of his reveling. Day was dawning. It was time to wake up, to cast off the old clothes, and to put on something clean and polished and battle-ready. “Armor” suggests warfare, and that is fitting. Though the return of Christ is imminent, that is no warrant to forsake the battle. Scripture never suggests that His people should sit on a hillside somewhere to await His coming.

In fact, between now and His coming, we are locked in a battle “against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places” (Eph 6:11). The nearness of our Lord’s return does not mitigate the seriousness of the battle. Now is not the time to slacken our diligence, but the opposite. We should engage the battle with new vigor, knowing that the time is short. “Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand” (v. 13).

In other words, we are not off-duty soldiers, free to carouse and indulge in the fleshly pleasures of night life. We are on duty, and our Commander-in-Chief might appear at any moment. Therefore, “Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy” (Rom 13:13). The Christian who is not living a holy and obedient life with heavenly priorities is a Christian who does not grasp the significance of the Lord’s imminent return. If we genuinely are expecting our Lord to appear at any time, that blessed hope should move us to be faithful and walk properly, lest our Lord return to find us walking improperly, disobeying, or dishonoring Him. In Christ’s own words, “Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming; in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning; lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!” (Mark 13:35-37).

There’s more: “But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts” (Rom 13:14). Again, when we are glorified, we will be instantly conformed to the image of Christ—made as much like Him as it is possible for human beings to be. Christlikeness is therefore the goal toward which God is moving us (Rom 8:29). Even now, the process of sanctification should be conforming us to H is image. As we grow in grace, we grow in Christlikeness. W e are to become a reflection of Christ’s character and His holiness. And that is what Paul means when he writes, “put on the Lord Jesus Christ.” We are to pursue sanctification, to follow after Christ in our conduct and character, to let His mind be in us, and to let His example guide our walk (Phil 2:5; 1 Pet 2:21).

Paul compared his pastoral duty of discipling the Galatians to birth pains, as he sought to bring them to Christlikeness: “I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you” (Gal 4:19). Writing to the Corinthians He also described sanctification as the process by which they would be remade in Christ’s likeness: “W e all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord” (2 Cor 3:18). In other words, we progress from one level of glory to another as we progress toward the ultimate goal. So “put on the Lord Jesus Christ” is simply a command to pursue sanctification (the whole theme of Romans 12–16).

When Paul told the Galatians, “as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ” (Gal 3:27), he was in essence saying sanctification begins at conversion. From the first moment of faith, we are clothed in his righteousness. That is justification. In the words of the prophet Isaiah, “I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, My soul shall be joyful in my God; for He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, he has covered me with the robe of righteousness” (Isa 61:10).

But that is just the beginning of what it means to put on Christ. Justification is a once-for-all completed event, but sanctification is an ongoing process. And the command to “put on . . . Christ” in Romans 13 is a command to pursue the Christlikeness of sanctification.

The hope of Christ’s imminent return is therefore the hinge on which a proper understanding of sanctification turns.

Let’s review some of the key texts that speak of the imminence of Christ’s return, and notice specifically what kind of practical duties this doctrine places on us:

! Steadfastness: “Be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand” (Jas 5:8).
! Kindness: “Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!” (Jas 5:9).
! Prayer: “The end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers” (1 Pet 4:7).
! Faithfulness in assembling together and encouraging one another: “Let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching” (Heb 10:24-25).

! Holy conduct and godliness: “Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness” (2 Pet 3:11).

! Purity and Christlikeness: “When He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure” (1 John 3:2-3).

Those cover several broad categories, embracing every aspect of our sanctification. The hope of Christ’s imminent return is a catalyst and an incentive for all these things—every fruit of the Spirit, every Christian virtue, everything that pertains to holiness and Christlikeness, and everything that belongs to life and godliness.

That is why it is so important to cultivate a watchful expectancy for the imminent coming of Christ. The point is not to make us obsessed with earthly events. In fact, if your interest in the return of Christ becomes a consuming fixation with what is happening in this world, you have utterly missed the point. The knowledge that Christ’s return is imminent should turn our hearts heavenward, “from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ” (Phil 3:20).

“Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless” (2 Pet 3:14).

*The source of this essay is the recently released volume entitled The Second Coming, copyright © 1999 by John MacArthur (Crossway, 1999).
[url=http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/j00-11-1.htm]Is Christ's Return Imminent? John MacArthur, Jr.[/url]

Sincerely,

Walter

DeepThinker wrote:

The Doctrine that you present here has nothing to do with the Doctrine that is found in the Bible that has been understood and taught in the believing Church since the beginning.

That is your opinion. The believing Church in the beginning was expecting the return of Christ in their lifetime.

The difficulty in understanding this is "how" He came.

We have visions of grandeur about Christ coming back seated on a physical manifestation of a horse, and an Angel blowing a trumpet, and people coming out of the ground to meet the LORD in the air.

This mindset is no different then the first century generation when the people were expecting a Saviour that will free them from Roman oppression. That is what they envisioned the Son of David doing. But He didn't meet their expectations. The same will be true of this generation, because we don't go into the ground when we die. The body returns to the ground but our spirit returns to God who gave it. We who are alive and remaining shall be caught up to meet the LORD in the air, so shall we ever be with the LORD. The first resurrection has taken place. How do I know that? I'd tell you Walter but I don't think you care to know. That is why I am asking you to refrain. Can you do that? And that means not changing nics, that is called deception.

Thank you Savannah, there is more I know but there is enough here to whet the appetite for anyone who wishes to go further into the whole truth regarding this matter. Praise God for His fulfilled word.

False teachers always pick and choose what Scripture’s they use to prove that Christ has already come again—referred to as His "second coming".

However, the whole counsel of God has many prophecies within it that go into detail about this end time event, and the “signs” that will let us know that it is at our door:.

The signs are as follows:

1.\tThe Gospel will be preached in all the world before the physical return of Jesus Christ to the earth occurs at Armageddon, although exhaustive efforts are presently underway to accomplish this:
Matthew 24:14: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

2.\tThere will be a mixture of believers and false believers within the Church body:
Matthew 13:24-30: Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

3.\tThere will be scoffers:
The Bible tells us one of the key signs of the end times will be people doubting the return of Christ will ever happen.
2nd Peter 3:3-4: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

4.\tHumanity will be able to cross the globe rapidly and science will be advancing:
Daniel 12:4: But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

5.\tPerilous times will come for mankind:
2nd Timothy 3:1: This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

6.\tMankind will deny God once flooded the earth:
2nd Peter 3:5-6: For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7.\tThe earth will be swimming in a sea of violence:
As it was in the days of Noah (Luke 17:26), so it shall be at the end. How was the earth in Noah's time?
Look no further than Genesis 6:11: The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

8.\tThere will be warfare all over the globe:
Mark 13:8: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

9.\tMankind will have the capability to destroy all life on the planet:
Unique to our generation, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled prior to the invention of weapons of mass destruction such as the nuclear bomb. Matthew 24: 22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

10.\tDeadly diseases will be rampant:
Matthew 24:7: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

11.\tFamines will be common:
Matthew 24:7: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

12.\tEarthquakes will be occurring globally:
Matthew 24:7: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

13.\tThere will be violent weather:
Luke 21:25- And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

14.\tChildren will be disobedient and rebellious:
2nd Timothy 3:2: For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

15.\tChristians and Jews will be hated for their faith in and connection with Christ:
Luke 21:17: And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

16.\tMankind will be in a state of moral, spiritual decay:
2nd Timothy 3:2-5: For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

17.\tReligious cults will flourish:
2nd Peter 2:1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

18.\tThere will be progress made toward a global government:
The European Union, the revived Roman Empire, is alive today and moving steadily toward the fulfillment of this prophecy as seen in Daniel 7: 23: "The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces." The Antichrist who will lead this world government (after the rapture of the Christian Church takes place) will be (or become) leader of the European Union as seen in Daniel 9:26.

19.\tThe world will be desperately seeking peace:
1st Thessalonians 5:3: For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

20.\tGlobal means of communication will exist:
We know this because the book of Revelation teaches us the entire world will see several events. This is unique to our generation as only recently in mankind's history have these technologies been present.
Revelation 11:9: And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

20.\tIsrael will exist as a nation in the latter days:
Read Ezekiel 37:1-14 to see this prophecy, which was fulfilled in 1948.

21.\tIsrael's birth as a nation will have happened in one day:
Fulfilled on May 14, 1948 as seen in Isaiah 66:8: "Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once?"

22.\tIsrael will be in possession of Jerusalem (has been since 1967):
This happened as a result of the Six-Day War in 1967. The capture of Jerusalem was critical from a prophetic standpoint as the Antichrist will someday enter a rebuilt Holy Temple that will be standing in Jerusalem at the midpoint of the Tribulation Period where he will declare himself to be God. This event, referred to by most as the abomination of desolation, is documented in Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24:15.

23.\tIsrael will be surrounded on every side by enemies:
Psalms 83:4: They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.

24.\tThe possession of Jerusalem will be the source of international conflict:
Is this happening today or what? It's a HUGE sign to us! Zechariah 12:3: And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

25.\tChristians will be lukewarm in their faith:
In Christ's address to the seven churches, He says in Revelation 3:15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

26.\tMany will claim to be Christ:
Matthew 24:5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

27.\tFalse Christs and false prophets will be very effective in the art of deception:
Matthew 24:24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

28.\tThere will be signs in the heavens:
Luke 21:25: And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

29.\tMockers will abound because those who live according to their own desires love to mock those who try to live theirs in a manner pleasing to God.
Jude 1:18: How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

30.\tIdolatry will be common:
Revelation 9:20: And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
31.\tMany Christians and church doctrines will depart from the faith: 1st Timothy 4:1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

32.\tMankind's state of rebellion will be so great, the coming of Christ will catch them completely off-guard:
Luke 21:35: For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

33.\tHomosexuality will be flaunted:
Leviticus 20:13: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
This is also spoken of in Luke 17:28- 30: "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed."

Although homosexuality is an abomination in the eyes of God, all sin is! I bring up this point because many Christians treat homosexuality as if it is the most unforgivable sin of all. Jesus Christ forgives all sins and we, His followers, should be reaching out to these people with love in our hearts that they might be saved! Homosexuality is not an unpardonable sin any more than any other sin is!

34.\tMany will rejoice in their unrighteousness:
2nd Thessalonians 2: 12: "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
These people, according to 2nd Thessalonians 2:11, will be subject to believing the lie the Antichrist will present to the world in the aftermath of the Rapture of the Church, leading many of them to eternal damnation. God will allow them to be deceived, it seems, as a reward for their bold defiance of Him. What a frightening thought!

35.\tAliyah will be taking place:
What is Aliyah? Aliyah is the Hebrew word used to describe the physical return of the Jewish people, the children of Israel, to their ancient Promised Land, Zion, from abroad.
In Scripture, God promised He would bring the Jews (descendants of Abraham) back to their Promised Land from all the nations of the world where He had scattered them! It is happening even as you read these words.
Ezekiel 36:24: For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

36. There will be signs Earth's environment is in trouble:
Romans 8:21-23: Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

37. Technology will exist capable of tracking the world's population, finances.
Revelation 13:16-17: And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

38. The capability will exist for an army of 200 million soldiers to be formed:
In Revelation 9:16, John sees a specific number of soldiers/"horsemen" preparing for or entering into war: And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

Estimates of the total human population of Earth during Christ's day typically vary between 100 to 400 million people. In 2004, the CIA determined China had an estimated 208,143,352 in its population alone fit for military service. As of 2006, that number had risen to 281,240,272 men fit for military service.

39. Drug use will be rampant:
Revelation 9:21: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
The original Greek for the word 'sorceries' is pharmakeia {far-mak-i'-ah}. It means the use of or the administering of drugs OR sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it.

40. Evil men, seducers and deceivers will get worse and worse. (2nd Timothy 3:13)
One doesn't have to think too hard to realize this prophecy is being dramatically fulfilled in our times. Upon reading this, close your eyes for a moment and think of how many people you know (or have heard of from reputable sources) who seem to be evil to the core! Similarly, think of how many people you know who have fallen victim to frauds and scams perpetrated by seducers (deceivers/imposters). The world today seems full of these types with no letup in sight.

41. There will be wars and rumours of war.
Matthew 24:6: And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
It seems that for every international conflict that exists at a given moment in our present time, there is potential for another to manifest itself as well. It's as though our world is about to blow apart at the seams!

42. When we begin to collectively see the signs listed above, Christ's return is near!
Luke 21:28: And when these things BEGIN to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Sincerely,

Walter

savannah wrote:
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor shall be.

DELETED

I do not think that it represents, the truth in anyway shape or form.

And yes this teaching is called Preterism. There is more truth in this then the "made" up version of the Great Tribulation.

Here is a challenge for you, where in the King James Bible will you find 7 years of Tribulation? Don't dance around the question, just answer with the verse or verses with the 7 years. And don't quote it from another website, YOU find it for yourself, know what you believe for yourself.

There is only one spot, but you have to use another translation OR take what the margin says to make the theory fit.

When you can't find it, which you won't, what else is in what you believe questionable?

Good Luck!

Regardless of what the Bible says, this is a straw-man argument. The outcome of your last question to Waltern has NO bearing on the outcome of your original. To prove one and/or disprove one of the other (questions) has no bearing on either.

So far my questions go unanswered because no one can answer them, but all I get are accusations after accusations.

When I talk to evolutionists and Atheists they do the same thing. They attack the person instead of answering the question. They do that because they are being backed into a corner and they can't get out. The Pharisees did the same thing with Jesus, they attacked Him instead of agreeing with what the word said.

Pride is a deadly thing.

I am not saying that I am right, rather I question what I USED to believe in the light of the questionable scriptures that we tend to ignore and NOT include in our understanding of "end time" events.

If you and Waltern are right, then the matter is settled and there is really no reason to continue on posting. From those that are "right" it will only be attacks and accusations, from those that are sharing what they believe or unsure it will be a rational discussion and a place of learning.

I like learning, don't you. :-)

In my humble and yet accurate assessment most of the opinions here are just that...... opinions. If you really want to know it all just wait about 100 years.

Has anyone ever told God that He is a liar? That is what we do when we put the prophecies that were foretold off into our future. Since we are looking for some "natural" manifestation of judgement to befall the world, we are judging God to be wrong. Because God said that He wasn't going to allow His prophetic word to prolong, but He would do it quickly. Because we don't understand, we charge God with folly. Has anyone ever considered that?

I know it's a shock to believers everywhere to hear anyone say that "Jesus has come back". Remember Elijah who told the woman who was barren she was going to have a child, her response was, "don't lie to me man of God". That information was shocking, she couldn't take it all in.

KNOW what you believe, not what you have been told by man or even what a translation has said, hear what the Holy Spirit is saying, don't even listen to me. Listen to Jesus.

Why is this important to me. Why is it important for me to tell you? Because Hope deferred maketh the heart sick. Why hope in a lie? Why waste time studying something that is not there?

On this matter of Christ's second coming, the Bible is very clear: it will happen in such a manner that everyone will know that Christ has come; all nations will recognize this and mourn; there will be no doubt whatsoever in everyone's mind because it will be resound across the skies and throughout the earth.

"For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man

Have you ever seen lightening in slow motion? It's a flash of light and that is it. It's so quick, like the twinkling of an eye.

The Son of God came to earth, lived, suffered, died, rose from the grave and sat down at the right hand of the Father so that we could have correct doctrinal opinions. Upholding dogma and berating heretics is what God chiefly requires of us. Don't take my word for it; just ask any fundamentalist, pentecostal, Calvinist or Calvary Chapelite, they'll tell you. But since the Bible is often ambiguous, it is impossible to construct a dogmatic system that everyone can agree on, which can only mean that God wants us to fight! It doesn't matter who is right; the important thing is that we fight, because that proves our devotion to Truth. Any namby-pamby religionist can "respectfully disagree" and "engage in dialectic debate," but real disciples display their love for the Savior by beating each other over the head with dogma. Each insult we hurl for the sake of theological rectitude is a jewel in our crowns.

Anyone who disagrees with me on this is going to fry!!!

To Freethinker, Lysa, LoinGirder, elharris, and others:

God’s Word tells us that if we (His true believers) do His will, that we will be able to discern if the Doctrine being taught is of God or of man. If it is from man, it is FALSE DOCTRINE (FALSE TEACHING).

John 1;17
17. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Two days ago I posted Prophecy, provided to us by GOD in His Word, the Bible, that tells us how the world will be (The signs of the time) when Jesus returns to this earth. These “Signs” of Christ will return will all be in effect when he does return.

All of the signs that I posted were not in evidence in the First Century, A.D. (i.e. between 1-100 A.D. In fact, these signs have never been present in the world.

God’s Word has allowed me (and the true Church, since the beginning) to discern false doctrine. The doctrine posted by Deepthinker, and approved of by Lysa and LoinGirder, elharris, and others (his “followers”) is all false Doctrine.

I will re-post what I posted on Friday. Only this time, I will do so in red. Please respond at what time in the 1st Century ALL OF THESE SIGNS [u] WERE[/u] IN EVIDENCE:

[color=990000][b]False teachers always pick and choose what Scripture’s they use to prove that Christ has already come again—referred to as His "second coming".

However, the whole counsel of God has many prophecies within it that go into detail about this end time event, and the “signs” that will let us know that it is at our door:.

The signs are as follows:

1. The Gospel will be preached in all the world before the physical return of Jesus Christ to the earth occurs at Armageddon, although exhaustive efforts are presently underway to accomplish this:
Matthew 24:14: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

2. There will be a mixture of believers and false believers within the Church body:
Matthew 13:24-30: Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

3. There will be scoffers:
The Bible tells us one of the key signs of the end times will be people doubting the return of Christ will ever happen.
2nd Peter 3:3-4: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

4. Humanity will be able to cross the globe rapidly and science will be advancing:
Daniel 12:4: But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

5. Perilous times will come for mankind:
2nd Timothy 3:1: This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

6. Mankind will deny God once flooded the earth:
2nd Peter 3:5-6: For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7. The earth will be swimming in a sea of violence:
As it was in the days of Noah (Luke 17:26), so it shall be at the end. How was the earth in Noah's time?
Look no further than Genesis 6:11: The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

8. There will be warfare all over the globe:
Mark 13:8: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

9. Mankind will have the capability to destroy all life on the planet:
Unique to our generation, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled prior to the invention of weapons of mass destruction such as the nuclear bomb. Matthew 24: 22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

10. Deadly diseases will be rampant:
Matthew 24:7: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

11. Famines will be common:
Matthew 24:7: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

12. Earthquakes will be occurring globally:
Matthew 24:7: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

13. There will be violent weather:
Luke 21:25- And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

14. Children will be disobedient and rebellious:
2nd Timothy 3:2: For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

15. Christians and Jews will be hated for their faith in and connection with Christ:
Luke 21:17: And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

16. Mankind will be in a state of moral, spiritual decay:
2nd Timothy 3:2-5: For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

17. Religious cults will flourish:
2nd Peter 2:1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

18. There will be progress made toward a global government:
The European Union, the revived Roman Empire, is alive today and moving steadily toward the fulfillment of this prophecy as seen in Daniel 7: 23: "The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces." The Antichrist who will lead this world government (after the rapture of the Christian Church takes place) will be (or become) leader of the European Union as seen in Daniel 9:26.

19. The world will be desperately seeking peace:
1st Thessalonians 5:3: For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

20. Global means of communication will exist:
We know this because the book of Revelation teaches us the entire world will see several events. This is unique to our generation as only recently in mankind's history have these technologies been present.
Revelation 11:9: And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

20. Israel will exist as a nation in the latter days:
Read Ezekiel 37:1-14 to see this prophecy, which was fulfilled in 1948.

21. Israel's birth as a nation will have happened in one day:
Fulfilled on May 14, 1948 as seen in Isaiah 66:8: "Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once?"

22. Israel will be in possession of Jerusalem (has been since 1967):
This happened as a result of the Six-Day War in 1967. The capture of Jerusalem was critical from a prophetic standpoint as the Antichrist will someday enter a rebuilt Holy Temple that will be standing in Jerusalem at the midpoint of the Tribulation Period where he will declare himself to be God. This event, referred to by most as the abomination of desolation, is documented in Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24:15.

23. Israel will be surrounded on every side by enemies:
Psalms 83:4: They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.

24. The possession of Jerusalem will be the source of international conflict:
Is this happening today or what? It's a HUGE sign to us! Zechariah 12:3: And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

25. Christians will be lukewarm in their faith:
In Christ's address to the seven churches, He says in Revelation 3:15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

26. Many will claim to be Christ:
Matthew 24:5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

27. False Christs and false prophets will be very effective in the art of deception:
Matthew 24:24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

28. There will be signs in the heavens:
Luke 21:25: And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

29. Mockers will abound because those who live according to their own desires love to mock those who try to live theirs in a manner pleasing to God.
Jude 1:18: How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

30. Idolatry will be common:
Revelation 9:20: And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
31. Many Christians and church doctrines will depart from the faith: 1st Timothy 4:1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

32. Mankind's state of rebellion will be so great, the coming of Christ will catch them completely off-guard:
Luke 21:35: For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

33. Homosexuality will be flaunted:
Leviticus 20:13: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
This is also spoken of in Luke 17:28- 30: "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed."

Although homosexuality is an abomination in the eyes of God, all sin is! I bring up this point because many Christians treat homosexuality as if it is the most unforgivable sin of all. Jesus Christ forgives all sins and we, His followers, should be reaching out to these people with love in our hearts that they might be saved! Homosexuality is not an unpardonable sin any more than any other sin is!

34. Many will rejoice in their unrighteousness:
2nd Thessalonians 2: 12: "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
These people, according to 2nd Thessalonians 2:11, will be subject to believing the lie the Antichrist will present to the world in the aftermath of the Rapture of the Church, leading many of them to eternal damnation. God will allow them to be deceived, it seems, as a reward for their bold defiance of Him. What a frightening thought!

35. Aliyah will be taking place:
What is Aliyah? Aliyah is the Hebrew word used to describe the physical return of the Jewish people, the children of Israel, to their ancient Promised Land, Zion, from abroad.
In Scripture, God promised He would bring the Jews (descendants of Abraham) back to their Promised Land from all the nations of the world where He had scattered them! It is happening even as you read these words.
Ezekiel 36:24: For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

36. There will be signs Earth's environment is in trouble:
Romans 8:21-23: Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

37. Technology will exist capable of tracking the world's population, finances.
Revelation 13:16-17: And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

38. The capability will exist for an army of 200 million soldiers to be formed:
In Revelation 9:16, John sees a specific number of soldiers/"horsemen" preparing for or entering into war: And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

Estimates of the total human population of Earth during Christ's day typically vary between 100 to 400 million people. In 2004, the CIA determined China had an estimated 208,143,352 in its population alone fit for military service. As of 2006, that number had risen to 281,240,272 men fit for military service.

39. Drug use will be rampant:
Revelation 9:21: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
The original Greek for the word 'sorceries' is pharmakeia {far-mak-i'-ah}. It means the use of or the administering of drugs OR sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it.

40. Evil men, seducers and deceivers will get worse and worse. (2nd Timothy 3:13)
One doesn't have to think too hard to realize this prophecy is being dramatically fulfilled in our times. Upon reading this, close your eyes for a moment and think of how many people you know (or have heard of from reputable sources) who seem to be evil to the core! Similarly, think of how many people you know who have fallen victim to frauds and scams perpetrated by seducers (deceivers/imposters). The world today seems full of these types with no letup in sight.

41. There will be wars and rumours of war.
Matthew 24:6: And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
It seems that for every international conflict that exists at a given moment in our present time, there is potential for another to manifest itself as well. It's as though our world is about to blow apart at the seams!

42. When we begin to collectively see the signs listed above, Christ's return is near!
Luke 21:28: And when these things BEGIN to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. [/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

Lysa wrote:

elharris wrote:
I do believe that it's something that we should be aware of, and AGAINST! I do not think that it represents, the truth in anyway shape or form.

I do not have a dog in this fight, I just wanted to toss something out there for consideration.

The statement above implies that you have a special knowledge about the endtimes that none of the others have, which is further supported by this other statement...

I researched the history and origins of all these so called forms and systems of theology, that men have come up with, and I was thinking of writing something on it, but frankly it's just a pain, and I'd rather be reading the Word or riding my horse.

You cannot know 100%, nor does Walter, nor do I, and nor does DeepThinker. It is pure and simple PRIDE that makes any of us think and believe that we have researched ALL THE HISTORY AND ORIGINS making us more knowledgeable on the subject (and that God wouldn't make a move with us! LOL).

In the past, I have been so guilty of this and I submit that when anyone goes into a discussion thinking they have all knowledge on the subject, that is what creates arguments and causes a divide in what could otherwise be a great discussion about UNCOVERING the truth not dispensing it out.

I truly believe that the endtimes is one of the areas that Christ left in the shadows and for good reason; either we're trusting Him or we are trusting our own arm of flesh.

There is my two cents that I tossed in there! I hope I still have acquaintances on here!! (huge grin)

God bless you all! I truly mean that and this post was meant for ALL OF US not just el.

he Gospel will be preached in all the world before the physical return of Jesus Christ to the earth occurs at Armageddon, although exhaustive efforts are presently underway to accomplish this:

The gospel would be preached into all the world AS a witness. A witness for what? A witness to the Jews that they can't say, "we have not heard". This issue is with the Jews. If you read back in Daniel 9, God was ending His relationship with them by telling them that a certain amount of weeks would transpire and their "end" was near.

Regarding the "world". Here is a scripture to consider, Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Question: At this time, did the Mayans in South America know about the faith of the Christians at Rome? How about the Chinese? But Paul here is saying the "Whole World". So when the gospel is proclaimed to the whole world, we can rightly assume that he is referring to the known world, not the globe, because as was stated above, did the North American Indians know about their faith? So we have to conclude that Paul is not referring to the globe.

You surprise me Walter, your always pulling out the Greek text when it's convenient to prove a point, but why not do it for everything? Because you know very well that even the words in some places that say, "end of the world" means the "end of the age".

[b]There will be a mixture of believers and false believers within the Church body:[/b] If you read your history the land was filled with all types of false brethren, charlatans and the like. You should know that, haven't you heard of the "Gnostics"? that was just one example. Josephus will tell you himself about this problem at the time of "the end".

[b] Humanity will be able to cross the globe rapidly and science will be advancing: Daniel 12:4: But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.[/b]The knowledge that increases is the knowledge of the LORD. The running to and fro is the spreading of the gospel.

Walter I know, it's traditional orthodoxy that men have interpreted these to mean, but the Holy Spirit in me (which you deny that I have) tells me differently. By the way just as a side note, What Daniel sealed Revelation revealed. "Seal the book O Daniel TILL THE TIME OF THE END." When was that book opened again? AT THE TIME OF THE END, when the Lamb that stood in the midst of the candlesticks was the only one who was worthy to open it.

And here is another juicy tidbit, John was told NOT to seal the vision because the TIME WAS AT HAND. Ole Daniel was told to seal the vision for it was FOR MANY DAYS. But Brother John was told NOT to seal his.

I'll stop here and let others absorb what's been written and I'll get back to your post after I have supper.

All I ask is that we think and question and learn. Sounds simple doesn't it?

waltern wrote:
God’s Word tells us that if we (His true believers) do His will, that we will be able to discern if the Doctrine being taught is of God or of man. If it is from man, it is FALSE DOCTRINE (FALSE TEACHING).

Looking at it from another angle, Jesus said, "This is my commandment, that ye love one another as I have loved you...by this all men will know ye are my disciples, that ye have love one for another." This commandment is fulfilled by enforcing theological correctness on everybody, whether they like it or not, as the conduct of the evangelical church universally testifies. We are saved, not by works, but by faith - but the faith of heretics will not save you; you must have faith in the correct dogma. Therefore yelling and insulting each other over doctrinal disagreements is the supreme act of love, even though it looks like hatred. Clearly Jesus does not want all men to know we are His disciples, otherwise he would not have given us a salvific system based on correct dogma which requires endless brawling over doctrine, even though, as Walter has pointed out, all doctrines of men are false. And since there is no point in fighting over which false doctrine is the correct false doctrine, it must be that salvation rests in the brawling itself. In this respect, Walter is a giant of the faith. He is Mr. Valiant-for-Truth from the Pilgrim's Progress. And he wears horn rimmed glasses and polyester leisure suits and carries a Chick Publications Soul-Winner's Bible (KJV).

LoinGirder wrote:

waltern wrote:
God’s Word tells us that if we (His true believers) do His will, that we will be able to discern if the Doctrine being taught is of God or of man. If it is from man, it is FALSE DOCTRINE (FALSE TEACHING).

And since all doctrine is taught by men, all doctrine is false. We are therefore correct to denounce one another as heretics.

Looking at it from another angle, Jesus said, "This is my commandment, that ye love one another as I have loved you...by this all men will know ye are my disciples, that ye have love one for another." This commandment is fulfilled by enforcing theological correctness on everybody, whether they like it or not, as the conduct of the evangelical church universally testifies. We are saved, not by works, but by faith - but the faith of heretics will not save you; you must have faith in the correct dogma. Therefore yelling and insulting each other over doctrinal disagreements is the supreme act of love, even though it looks like hatred. Clearly Jesus does not want all men to know we are His disciples, otherwise he would not have given us a salvific system based on correct dogma which requires endless brawling over doctrine, even though, as Walter has pointed out, all doctrines of men are false. And since there is no point in fighting over which false doctrine is the correct false doctrine, it must be that salvation rests in the brawling itself. In this respect, Walter is a giant of the faith. He is Mr. Valiant-for-Truth from the Pilgrim's Progress. And he wears horn rimmed glasses and polyester leisure suits and carries a Chick Publications Soul-Winner's Bible (KJV).

LoinGirder, you've proved out your own points rather well in this post and since joining to harrass.

When I first engaged on a thread with Walter back in Dec or Jan, the thread was about Pre-trib vs Post-trib and one thing I will tell you that I learned about Walter - though he and I have opposing viewpoints on that topic - he was very polite to me.

You quoted him above where he was quoting a "Scripture".
So what would you like to talk about here? In other words, why did you sign-on? So far you've only demonstrated this type of 'love' that is in all of your posts.

And Rev_Knowitall - what is your 'burden' here, for or with the Body of Christ?

These questions sound like a survey to me - but I needed to ask because, to come on a thread to stir-it-up by accusing those participating in a thread topic, that they are stirring something up, seems strange to me and most especially when that "love" word enters it.

Could we keep threads on topic, in other words?

Just from one chpt out of His Word.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should [b]raise it up again at the last day. [/b]

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will [b]raise him up at the last day.[/b]

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will [b]raise him up at the last day.[/b]

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will [b]raise him up at the last day. [/b]

Martha knew this from the O.T. Scriptures -

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in [b]the resurrection at the last day. [/b]

When do the dead rise first and then they which are alive and remain rise with them to meet the LORD in the air?

At His Return.

I'm having a hard time believing that anyone could read The Word and not see a second coming and the resurrection of the dead and those who meet them in the air.

I'm having a hard time believing that anyone could read The Word and not see a second coming and the resurrection of the dead and those who meet them in the air.

[b]Martha knew this from the O.T. Scriptures.[/b] From what OT scriptures is she referring to? And where did she get this idea that a resurrection would take place at the last day?

I know where it's at, but I want to see if you know since your the one who made the statement.

The Resurrection:

Future, end time event for believers in the Messiah:

John 11:24

24. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

[b]The Resurrection, several Old Testament references:[/b]

Job 14:10-15

10. But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the Ghost, and where is he?
11. As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12. So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. 13. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me![color=990000][b] 14. If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.[/color][/b]

Job 19:25-27
[color=990000][b]25. For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27. Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. [/color][/b]

New Testament Teaching:

Rapture 1/16/06

1 Thes 4:3-18 (Ignorant)
3. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Cor 15:12-58 (Resurrection)
12. Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13. But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14. And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17. And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.[b] 20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29. Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
30. And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31. I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
33. Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 35. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36. Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37. And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38. But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39.[u] All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43. It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[/u][/b]

[color=990000]Rapture Teaching:
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.[/color]

[color=990000][b]
2 Timothy 2-17-26: (Hymenaeus and Philetus, who MISTAKENLY thought that the RESURRECTION had already come.)

17. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18. Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
22. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
23. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25. In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26. And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 28. But ye should say, Why persecute we him, seeing the root of the matter is found in me? 29. Be ye afraid of the sword: for wrath bringeth the punishments of the sword, that ye may know there is a judgment.[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

DeepThinker wrote:

I'm having a hard time believing that anyone could read The Word and not see a second coming and the resurrection of the dead and those who meet them in the air.

No one is denying that. The thread is discussing "when" did He return.

[b]Martha knew this from the O.T. Scriptures.[/b] From what OT scriptures is she referring to? And where did she get this idea that a resurrection would take place at the last day?

I know where it's at, but I want to see if you know since your the one who made the statement.

It is obvious that you are fixed in believing that you are correct in your view, Your only point of posting seems to be to 'instruct' everyone else who is in error,

I find just the opposite, I get accusations, pointing the finger, told that I have another spirit, that I speak of another gospel etc. etc.. and yet no one wants even attempt to see what the scriptures are presenting themselves.

[b]I've put a challenge out there to anyone to find the 7 years of great tribulation in the King James Bible.[/b]All the replies I get is more accusations. Why not find out what you believe to be true?

I think it has a lot to do with fear. What if I find out what I believe is not there? That means I have to revamp and we are not willing to do that, are we? So the best thing to do is accuse the messenger of heresy, discredit him and call him a liar.

When I read Walters posts it's like I am reading my own silly carnal understandings of what I once thought was the truth.

No, your mistaken if I want to correct anyone, but it delights me when the light bulb is turned on for anyone who can see this, just like a man who sees the gospel and cries out to God.

[b]What is the difference between PRETERISM and AMILLENNIALISM? Is there a difference?[/b]You got me, what is the difference?

2 Timothy 2-17-26: (Hymenaeus and Philetus, who MISTAKENLY thought that the RESURRECTION had already come.)

Know what you believe, so know one can refute it.

I think that the " great tribulation" is only about 3 1/2 years. for what it's worth.

At least have the courage to say that you don't take the passages literally and we can agree to disagree!

[b]But you HAVE NOT done this.[/b]I have done so. Savannah wrote something and I "Amened" it.

The seven years as you well know comes from Daniel 9:27 and is the last 'week' of years. The book of revelation tells about a period of 3 1/2 years which is really the great tribulation. However these details are not what need addressing first. The first thing is do we believe Jesus is coming back or not? I believe it is very clear He is.

Well if you believe that He is coming back, bless God Brother. I am not here to try to change your mind one iota. Rather to look at these obscure scripture and NOT deny they exist, we all do when we don't have an answer for them. "There be some standing here that shall not taste of death till they see the Son of man coming in His Kingdom. All I am asking from you is not to deny this but to consider it and think for yourself, "what doth this mean". For example,

I can't give you any proof that there was a resurrection at the end of the 70th week, however, I can give you what is written regarding it. The same goes for Jesus Christ. There is no secular proof that Jesus ever existed, however, we do have a bible that says that He did.

If you believe me to be in error, the best thing you can do for me is to pray earnestly that I'd be won back to what everyone else believes. And I sincerely mean that without any smirk or grin on my face.

Says Deepthinker:

"The same goes for Jesus Christ. There is no secular proof that Jesus ever existed, however, we do have a bible that says that He did."

This is absolutely not true. There is considerable
evidence from secular sources that Jesus Christ
existed.

"Did Jesus Really Exist?

By Paul L. Maier, The Russell H. Seibert Professor of Ancient History, Western Michigan University

"No, he didn't!" some skeptics claim, thinking that this is a quick, powerful lever with which to pry people away from "the fable of Christianity." But the lever crumbles at its very first use. In fact, there is more evidence that Jesus of Nazareth certainly lived than for most famous figures of the ancient past. This evidence is of two kinds: internal and external, or, if you will, sacred and secular. In both cases, the total evidence is so overpowering, so absolute that only the shallowest of intellects would dare to deny Jesus' existence. And yet this pathetic denial is still parroted by "the village atheist," bloggers on the internet, or such organizations as the Freedom from Religion Foundation.

The Internal Evidence

Aside from the many Messianic predictions in the Old Testament, not one of the four Gospels or the 23 other documents in the New Testament would make an ounce of sense if Jesus had never lived. Did the whole cavalcade of well-known historical personalities in the first century A.D. who interacted with Jesus deal with a vacuum? Did Herod the Great try to terminate an infant ghost? Did the Jewish high priests Annas and Caiaphas interview a spirit? Did the Roman governor Pontius Pilate judge a phantom on Good Friday, or Paul and so many apostles give their lives for a myth?

No one doubts that the above names are well known from both sacred and secular sources, as well as archaeological evidence, and are therefore historical. The same is clearly true of Jesus of Nazareth. But why, then, is Jesus not permitted the "luxury" of actually having lived as did the rest of these? Why the double standard here?

From the internal, biblical evidence alone, therefore, Jesus' existence is simply categorical. And yet there is an abundance of additional extrabiblical information on this question.

The External Evidence: Christian

Another long paragraph could be devoted to writings of the early church fathers, some of whom had close contact with New Testament personalities. Jesus' disciple John, for example, later became bishop of the church at Ephesus. One of his students was Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna, and a student of his, in turn, was Irenaeus of Lyons. The centerpiece in all of their writings was Jesus the Christ ("Messiah").

Apart from such living personal links to Jesus, both geographical and temporal tangencies appear in Justin Martyr. Born of pagan parents around A.D. 100 in Nablus (between Judea and Galilee), Justin tried and abandoned various philosophical schools until he found in Christianity the one true teaching. As a native of the Holy Land, Justin mentions sites associated with Jesus, such as the Bethlehem grotto in which he was born, and even such details as Jesus working as an apprentice carpenter in the shop of his foster father Joseph, where they specialized in producing such agricultural implements as yokes for oxen and plows.

External Evidence: Jewish

The Jewish rabbinical traditions not only mention Jesus, but they are also the only sources that spell his name accurately in Aramaic, his native tongue: Yeshua Hannotzri—Joshua (Jesus) of Nazareth. Some of the references to Jesus in the Talmud are garbled—probably due to the vagaries of oral tradition—but one is especially accurate, since it seems based on written sources and comes from the Mishna—the earliest collection of writings in the Talmud. This is no less than the arrest notice for Jesus, which runs as follows:

He shall be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and lured Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. Anyone who knows where he is, let him declare it to the Great Sanhedrin in Jerusalem.

Four items in this statement strongly support its authenticity as a notice composed before Jesus' arrest: 1) The future tense is used; 2) Stoning was the regular punishment for blasphemy among the Jews whenever the Roman government was not involved; 3) There is no reference whatever to crucifixion; and 4) That Jesus was performing "sorcery"— the extraordinary or miraculous with a negative spin—is quite remarkable. This not only invokes what historians call the "criterion of embarrassment," which proves what is conceded, but accords perfectly with how Jesus' opponents explained away his miraculous healings: performing them with the help of Beelzebul (Luke 11:18).

Moreover, the first-century Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, twice mentions "Jesus who is called the Christ" in his Jewish Antiquities. In the second of these, he tells of the death of Jesus' half-brother James the Just of Jerusalem (20:200). And two books earlier, in the longest first-century non-biblical reference to Christ, he tells of Jesus midway through his discussion of events in Pontius Pilate's administration:

At this time there was a wise man called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. Many people among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have reported wonders. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day. (18:63)

This is the recent, uninterpolated text that replaces the traditional version which, unfortunately, had suffered early interpolation. For a more detailed evaluation of Josephus and his references to Jesus, please see my separate article on Josephus in this series.

External Evidence: Secular

Cornelius Tacitus, one of the most reliable source historians of first-century Rome, wrote in his Annals a year-by-year account of events in the Roman Empire under the early Caesars. Among the highlights that he reports for the year A.D. 64 was the great fire of Rome. People blamed the emperor Nero for this conflagration since it happened "on his watch," but in order to save himself, Nero switched the blame to "the Christians," which is the first time they appear in secular history. Careful historian that he was, Tacitus then explains who "the Christians" were: "Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilatus" (15:44). He then goes on to report the horrors that were inflicted on the Christians in what became their first Roman persecution.

Tacitus, it should be emphasized, was not some Christian historian who was trying to prove that Jesus Christ really lived, but a pagan who despised Christians as a "disease," a term he uses later in the passage. Had Jesus never even existed, he would have been the first to expose that pathetic phantom on whom such cultists placed their trust. Were no other references to Jesus available, this passage alone would have been sufficient to establish his historicity. Skeptics realize this, and so have tried every imaginable means to discredit this passage—but to no avail. Manuscript analysis and computer studies have never found any reason to call this sentence into question, nor its context.

Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus also recorded events of the first century in his famous Lives of the Twelve Caesars. He, too, regarded the Christians as a sect "professing a new and mischievous religious belief" (Nero 16) and doubtless cited "Christus" as well, spelling his name "Chrestus" (Claudius 25). That the vowels "e" and "i" were often interchangeable is demonstrated by the French term for "Christian" to this day: chretien.

Pliny the Younger was the Roman governor of Bithynia—today, the northwestern corner of Turkey—and about the year 110 he wrote the emperor Trajan (98-117 A.D.), asking what to do about the Christians, a "wretched cult" whom he mentions eight times in his letter. Christ himself is cited three times, the most famous instance referring to Christians "...who met on a fixed day to chant verses alternately among themselves in honor of Christ, as if to a god..." (Letter No. 96). Trajan's response, interestingly enough, suggests that Christians not be hunted out. (Ibid., No. 97). But again, if Christ were only a mythical character, these hostile sources would have been the first to emblazon that fact in derision.

Other ancient secular sources, such as Theudas and Mara bar Serapion also bear witness to the historicity of Jesus. But any further evidence clearly comes under the "beating a dead horse" category so far as this article is concerned. Nothing more is necessary in view of the overpowering evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was no myth, but a totally historical figure who truly lived. Skeptics should focus instead on whether or not Jesus was more than a man. That, at least, could evoke a reasonable debate among reasonable inquirers, rather than a pointless discussion with sensationalists who struggle to reject the obvious."

Jesus-is-God wrote:

LoinGirder, you've proved out your own points rather well in this post and since joining to harrass.

When I first engaged on a thread with Walter back in Dec or Jan, the thread was about Pre-trib vs Post-trib and one thing I will tell you that I learned about Walter - though he and I have opposing viewpoints on that topic - he was very polite to me.

You quoted him above where he was quoting a "Scripture".
So what would you like to talk about here? In other words, why did you sign-on? So far you've only demonstrated this type of 'love' that is in all of your posts.

And Rev_Knowitall - what is your 'burden' here, for or with the Body of Christ?

These questions sound like a survey to me - but I needed to ask because, to come on a thread to stir-it-up by accusing those participating in a thread topic, that they are stirring something up, seems strange to me and most especially when that "love" word enters it.

Could we keep threads on topic, in other words?

I just explained that the topic is unimportant and incidental; what matters is that we honor our Savior by fighting over dogma. If this is not true, then North American evangelicalism is not a valid interpretation of the Gospel. Have you noticed that our British and European friends don't participate in the threads that turn mean and vitriolic? That is because they do not understand the importance of brawling over dogma. The British are saved by faith. Americans are saved by embracing the correct dogma. Catholics and liberals and Emergers have faith, but they are going to hell because their dogma is wrong. Your salvation depends on perfect adherence to correct dogma. That is why Walter is right to harangue you on every jot and tittle of doctrine, including even what Bible translation you use, because if he can verbally abuse you into perfect conformance with his theology, he will have succeeded in saving your soul. That is why he will fight you for disagreeing with his Rapture Doctrine just as savagely as if you denied the Resurrection itself, because a theology that is only 99% correct will land you in hell.

And that's not just Walter and his sidekick LoinGirder talking; that's American Evangelicalism in a nutshell.

And I didn't join this forum to harass anyone. I'm here to follow Walter around and affirm the truthfulness of his pronouncements. The man is beset by Mystery Babylon/Emerging Church/One World Religion Illuminati infiltrators and needs my support.

And I didn't join this forum to harass anyone. I'm here to follow Walter around and affirm the truthfulness of his pronouncements. The man is beset by Mystery Babylon/Emerging Church/One World Religion Illuminati infiltrators and needs my support.

If the resurrection from the dead has already happened, then one must also assert that the natural branches which were broken off (unconverted Israel), have come to salvation. For the apostle Paul asserted that there is a connection between the last-days conversion of the Jews, and the resurrection of the dead.

Acts 2 [1] And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. [2] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. [3] And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. [4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. [5] And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, [b]out of every nation under heaven[/b]. [6] Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. [7] And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? [8][b]And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? [9] Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, [10] Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, [11] Cretes and Arabians[/b] , we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. [12][b]And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?[/b] [13] Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. [14][b]But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them[/b] , Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: [15] For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. [16][b] But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel[/b]; [17][b]And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh[/b] : and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: [18] And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: [19] And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: [20] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: [21] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. [22] Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: [23] Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: [24] Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. [25] For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: [26] Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: [27] Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. [28] Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. [29] Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. [30] Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; [31] He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. [32] This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. [33] Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. [34] For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, [35] Until I make thy foes thy footstool. [36] Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. [37] Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? [38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Many believe that what Peter was doing is prophesying an extension on Joel's prophecy moving into the future because he uses the words Last Days and because of the doom and gloom that would follow. But when you read what he is telling the Jews back then, he was answering their question with scripture fulfillment that in the last days God would pour out the holy Spirit on all flesh. In the Old Testament God only said that a remnant of the Jews would be saved, just a handful. That day the Church saw 5000 men, that is excluding their wives and children, so we are looking at pretty close to 15,000. And in another day, 4000 men were saved again excluding the women and children. These were all Jewish men, none of them were gentiles because the gentiles were not yet brought in.

I don't want anyone to miss this. Peter was answering their question and pulled out Joel's prophesy and spoke of what was happening to them concerning the days they were living in and Peter spoke of them being the "last days".

Isaiah 11 [10] And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. [11] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

I could go on, but please understand, even Walter can tell you, any subject regarding bible prophecy takes a lot of energy to compile and it can't be compiled in one moment.

This post is addressed to all who have tried to reach out to Deepthinker. I am one of those people that tried.

How is the Christian to respond to false doctrine? How is the Christian to respond to a false teacher?

In July of this year, I reached out to ‘Deepthinker” and spoke to him as a father would to a son. And where did that conversation go? Unfortunately nowhere.

I will not include the entire messages, but only two of his 4 messages to me--enough for all to see who & where Deepthinker is coming from. His mind is set in concrete, and no matter what is posted to him via scripture or Church history--nothing will cause him to pause, and think about it in any way. Why? Is he unteachable? You be the judge:

[color=000000]Deepthinker wrote:

As regarding Church attendance. I don't go. [u]There is not a man that is worthy enough to sit under. [/u]

You will call it rebellion, and maybe your right. But I truly don't know a man who has the "truth" (and I am not talking about bible prophecy, there is more to the bible besides that subject).

They are all into this seeker sensitive, purpose driven madness. There maybe one that is not, but he is too far out of the city.

I've sat under great men. Men that deserved respect because they weren't looking for it. [u]No, in order for me to be in Church, I have to be the Pastor.[/u]

I have heard the stuff they are teaching today, pure nonsense, you can't fellowship under that regime, my cup would run over and spill out into the aisle crying out against it. My bones would burn within me to say a word of reproof.

If the LORD told you to take a harlot and sleep with her, would you do it?

You'd balk at the idea, you'd question the LORD and believe me people would question you.

Well God told one of the prophets to do just that. We agree with it because we have read about it and know why it was written. But think of the poor guy who just got the command to do it. The law says not to and yet here God is saying, "go take a harlot". He is in a quandary.

Lets say you finally yielded and obeyed. Do you think your reputation would last long in the community, in your church? Nay, you'd be ostracised, cut off from all fellowship. You'd look up at God and say, "Why did you do this to me?".

So it is with me saying that I don't go to church. Oh yes, I know the "law" says for me not to forsake the assembly but I am compelled to obey the Spirit of God, after all He is the one doing the leading.

I don't expect you to understand any of this.

Most Sincerely

DT
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Another response:
Deepthinker wrote:

Another gospel that Paul preached was a mixture of law and grace, to draw the individual under condemnation which we have been freed from by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

Not another gospel my brother,[u] rather a correct interpretation of bible prophecy.[/u] What you fail to understand is the language in which God spoke through the prophets concerning Matthew 24 and the Apostles writings and the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ whom John received while he was on the Island of Patmos.

Jesus was born under the law. The things He spoke were in parables and similitude's. Those who heard him didn't understand what He was saying, even the Apostles were left scratching their heads wondering. Jesus spoke like an old testament prophet using figurative language because He was under the law which was still in effect until his sacrifice on the cross.

When Jesus said if your hand offend thee, cut if off. Does He mean to cut your hand off? Does He mean to pluck out your eyes? Does He mean to hate your Father and Mother, when the command says to honour them?

Does He mean to take up your cross a wooden beam? Is Jesus a baby lamb? Is the word of God really a seed that men plant in soil?

Of course not. They all are principles to which we must learn from spiritually.

Jesus said, If your eye be single than is your body full of light. Men are not Cyclops, we don't have single eyes, but He was speaking about something else.

Thus when He spoke about the Sun turning black, He was drawing the same language from the Old Testament prophets used. They said the same things.

I used to believe and teach a post tribulation rapture. I am glad that I don't anymore, there is not word of truth in it. I pray that you'll see it.[/color]
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[color=990000][b]Each thread to Deepthinker has been nothing more than a waste of time. I for one am finished with any dialogue. How can one have dialogue with a person that only understands monologue?[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

[b]An Unteachable Spirit.
An unteachable spirit is an unwillingness to change
"My people are destroyed for lack of kinowledge" (Hosea 4:6).

"A wise man will hear, and will increase learning" (Proverbs 1:5).

"If thou criest after knowledge...if thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God" (Proverbs 2:3-5).[/b]

DeepThinker wrote:

If the resurrection from the dead has already happened, then one must also assert that the natural branches which were broken off (unconverted Israel), have come to salvation. For the apostle Paul asserted that there is a connection between the last-days conversion of the Jews, and the resurrection of the dead.

When Peter stood up on that great day when the Holy Spirit was given, he said these words,

Acts 2 [1] And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. [2] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. [3] And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. [4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. [5] And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, [b]
DELETED

Wow, talk about slander. I wrote those in PM to you Walter. PM means Personal Message. I am shocked that you would have stooped this low to discredit me by bringing in my personal opinion that I personally spoke to you and YOU alone.

Who are you?

Think about this - There is no way to subtract or add to this book "unknowingly" - otherwise His judgments below are extremely unfair.

Revelation 22:18,19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city [Rev 21:1-27 Rev 22:13-15], and from the things which are written in this book.

"THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." 27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

In case you haven't noticed by this time Rev-Knowitall - this discussion is about people who do not believe in His Second Coming - not the "when".

Heresy =

G139 αιρεσις hairesis From G138 ; properly 'a choice'

G138 αιρέομαι 'to take for oneself', that is, 'to prefer'. - 'choose'.

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2Ti 4:1-4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead [b]at his appearing and his kingdom[/b]; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

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Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn
Matthew 13:39-43 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; [b]the harvest is the end of the world;[/b] and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; [b]so shall it be in the end of this world.[/b] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 13:47-51 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. [b]So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.[/b] Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-32 When the Son of man [b]shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him[/b], then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats

Mark 8:38 [b]Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. [/b]

Mark 13:23-27 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they 'see' the Son of man 'coming' in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1Thessalonians 4:1517 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2Tim 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom

2Thess. 2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

2Thessalonians 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; [b]when[/b] he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Well, DeepThinker and I must be British then, OH and don't forget, saved by faith! We disagree adamantly on the end-times and I might be wrong but as far as I can remember - we actually get along!

There are many, including my mother who has placed her hope and trust in the CC and the pope. This is a salvation issue for her.

God Bless thank you for sharing that.

Think about this - There is no way to subtract or add to this book "unknowingly" - otherwise His judgments below are extremely unfair.

Revelation 22:18,19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city [Rev 21:1-27 Rev 22:13-15], and from the things which are written in this book.

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So, there are some here that believe that it is alright to rip Chpts 19-22 Out-Of the Revelation and still "be cool" with GOD?

To say that "Jesus is not coming again and there will be no Resurrection of the dead & those who remain alive" is now 'Alright' with this many people here?

I'm amazed just how far we've come with this "just believe in Jesus" theory and more amazed how many more have signed into this mind, just within the last year or so.

So it's - Go ahead - take your scissors to any book within the Book - it's all O.K. now - "as long as you have faith" - That's what's been said here and so it stands - thus saith some posters.

Even the devils believe and tremble.

1Co 15:19-23 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Deepthinker - you'll never take our Blessed Hope away.

You haven't answered the Scripture posts we've given you so far with Scriptures.

It's just something that you 'want' to believe and rob us of.

Won't happen - Far too much Scripture on the side of His Returning and our Resurrection.

More Scripture than this page could hold.

If you don't want Him to Come Back and be resurrected with us - you've made a choice.

You'll also miss out on your crown - 2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, [u]shall give me at that day[/u]: and not to me only, but [u]unto all them also that [b]love[/b] his appearing.[/u]

Better to be "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ - So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ - And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. Amen.
Tit 2:13 1Co 1:7 1Pe 5:4 Col 3:4 1Co 15:51-52 1Th 5:23 1Th 3:13 1Jn 2:28

Will keep praying DT.

I suspect you were typing while I posted above yours.

Lysa, I cannot take these verses out of His Word or say it just doesn't apply to some nice folks on a forum, because I didn't write it, He did.

DT claims to have studied this topic Extensively & is teaching this to anyone who is reading this - babes in Christ as well and so again - There is no way to subtract or add to the Revelation "unknowingly" - otherwise His judgments below are extremely unfair.

Revelation 22:18,19 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

[i]and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city , and from the things which are written in this book.[/i]"

To Lysa:

If there is no physical resurrection of the dead (like Christ’s physical resurrection from the dead), then the following verse in red still applies to you and all of those that have that same belief:

(1 Cor 15:13-17)
13. But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14. And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17. And if Christ be not raised,.[color=990000][b] your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.[/color][/b]

It's a very simple verse. It gives a single condition: "If the dead are not raised" So, if you don't take the resurrection of the dead literally, then the following statement "the dead are not raised" is TRUE.

So, if the single condition is TRUE, then the RESULT is: "then Christ has not been raised either".

This is what computer programmers refer to as an "IF....THEN statement".

and the verse follows that if the CONDITION[color=990000][b] "if Christ has not been raised", THEN the result: "your faith is futile (in vain) and you are still in your sins"[/color][/b]

[color=0000FF]Obvioisly, Paul spent the entire 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians addressing those who didn't/don't believe that the resurrection of the dead is a physical (literal) resurrection, and not a spiritual one.

Those that teach others that the resurrection of the dead is not a literal event, but a spiritual event, then they are false teachers.

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies ..." (2 Pet. 2:1)

False teachers that teach this lie are guilty of-- heresy. Are heretics going to heaven? They believe in Jesus, you say. Sure, but so does Satan![/color]

Sincerely,

Walter

Lysa wrote:

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
To say that "Jesus is not coming again and there will be no Resurrection of the dead & those who remain alive" is now 'Alright' with this many people here?

I know what the Bible says about Rev 22.18,19 and no where even in the condemning parts (with the liars), does it say "if you do not believe such and such about the end-times, you will have no part in the holy city."

To say that "Jesus is not coming again and there will be no Resurrection of the dead & those who remain alive" is now 'Alright' with this many people here?

Is that quote part of what Jesus said a person has to believe to be born-again? If it is not, then I ask you gently and lovingly because we are friends... could it be you who is "[i]adding unto these things[/i]"?

I do not know every detail of what DT believes about the end-times, but I know that according to Rev 22.15, not believing this does not make him a dog, sorcerer, whoremonger, murderer, idolater, or a liar (well, this one you might agree with but it's not what you or I believe that condemns a person, [b]it's what Christ believes and knows about that person[/b]).

According to God, what exactly is a dog? A sorcerer? A whoremonger? A murderer? An idolator? A liar? I'm not a 100% sure but pretty sure that they do not include not believing in the resurrection just like you believe in it.

Jesus-is-Lord, I value your friendship but I also value the word of God that speaks on believing in Christ and loving one another. [i]Above all, keep your love for one another at full strength, since love covers a multitude of sins.[/i] 1 Peter 4.8

I'm sure DT doesn't want your prayers in the state you guys are in; but can you not have an attitude of prayer towards people you believe to be THAT wrong? Because technically, if you are walking in Christ and pleasing Christ; He said [b]ask what you will and you will receive it[/b]. Can you not rest in praying that and believing that for a brother? Or have you not yet prayed for him in redeeming love?

God bless

You haven't answered the Scripture posts we've given you so far with Scriptures.

It's just something that you 'want' to believe and rob us of.

I too believe in a "Blessed Hope", we don't share the same thoughts on it, but it's the revelation of Jesus Christ in the believer who has come to maturity in Christ. It's the Christ that is to be formed in us. It's that hope of where Paul arrived when he said, "it's no longer I that liveth but the life that I now live, I live by the faith of the Son of God. No longer living by that faith that was given to us in the beginning, but living by His faith. That is my Blessed Hope.

If you don't want Him to Come Back and be resurrected with us - you've made a choice.

I'm amazed just how far we've come with this "just believe in Jesus" theory and more amazed how many more have signed into this mind, just within the last year or so.

Forget about Eschatology for a moment, there are "Fundamental" Churches that say that the outpouring and the gifts of the Spirit died out in the first century. That the Holy Ghost which was given as the "Promise" that was not to be just for the Jews then but for your "Children and your childrens childen and for many as the LORD our God should call." Who are we to put limits on the New Testament in which Christ paid handsomely for for us to receive? This false teaching that you get the Holy Ghost just because "you believe" is heretical and hellish. The Holy Ghost would come the way it's prescribed in the book of Acts, it's not something that we doctrinally toss aside because it's no longer convenient. We talk about "adding and taking away", these fundamentalist have "taken away" and "added" to the scriptures making the word of God of non effect.

Quote: "I did start this thread with my own questions that seemed to be overridden with false accusations and condemnation."

I followed this thread very closely and this is not a true statement.

You started this thread - that part is right but not with questions and you were leading whomever would read it, away from the Second Coming of Christ and our Resurrection to meet Him in the air.

You claimed to have studied this out extensively - you took your time coming back on to address many posts. This is a very serious topic and not just a pre-trib vs whatever else thread.

To "start" a thread of this magnitude and then tell Walter to not tell you you're wrong and to not post to you or anyone else but yet not respond to endless Scripture references given is not the way to "start" a thread.
You "started" this thread to bring in this teaching of No Second Coming and No Resurrection of the Saints.

This is serious business.

To "start" a thread of this magnitude and then tell Walter to not tell you you're wrong and to not post to you or anyone else but yet not respond to endless Scripture references given is not the way to "start" a thread.

Now we all know that those who disagree disagree, what I can't understand is why continue to bother posting? You've made your point very clear. I am fine with it, be at peace Brothers.

I've seen plenty be "nasty" to Walter as well and there are the few exceptions that aren't harsh at times, even those who call for "love".

For myself, I'd rather hear the truth spoken harshly then sugar coated lies.

This isn't just about Walter though - it's about a Foundational Doctrine of The Church and a very serious one at that.

You're asking me why I or we continue to post? - because we're commanded to in His Word.

The LORD is Coming back Again and there will be a resurrection of the Saints - Thus saith The LORD!

The LORD is Coming back Again and there will be a resurrection of the Saints - Thus saith The LORD!

"THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." 27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

It's so nice to hear from people like yourself who are just willing to be open and not charge in declaring everyone that doesn't agree with "Christian Orthodoxy" is a heretic. For example, I consider the doctrine of the Trinity to be heresy but it's not a salvation issue, because everyone that is Trinitarian puts their faith in the LORDSHIP of Jesus Christ, so I just consider the doctrine of the Trinity as guesswork on our part of who and what God is.

Let me go back to the beginning because that is where one needs to start. Starting at the end is the wrong place as there is much foundation that needs to be covered before one can reach a reasonable conclusion.

As a bible student I grew up in the Pentecostal movement believing in a Pre Trib Rapture teaching. Sometime later, I changed to Mid Trib and then settled into the Post Trib teaching to which I was very much grounded in believing. Though I said grounded, I was always perplexed when I read certain verses and often wondered why those verses were even there, because I kept questioning the validity of what I believed, not that I doubted for one moment, I ran with it, taught it, like Waltern, I was firmly convinced and steadfast and pushed away all those that stood in my way. I called anyone a heretic that disagreed with what I believed.

I went on an extensive fast, not because of the Tribulation teachings, rather I wanted to know Jesus Christ more intimately and to tell you the truth any of these doctrines that caused strife, I just didn't want nothing to do with it, I just wanted to know my LORD. I rarely read the book of Revelation because it was a book that seemed to be full of symbols that I had not learned from the Old Testament of what they all meant, so I left off studying, and besides I was turned off of it because so many people who were starting to know the LORD, read that book and was becoming very confused. I would admonish them to read the New Testament and leave the book of Revelation alone for now until they were firmly established in the faith. They were looking to it like some crystal ball trying to find out what is going to happen in the future. They would hold in home meetings and all they discussed was the Illuminati, Anti Christ, New Age symbols, etc.. etc.., there was no Christian love for Christ, it was just everything else but. Now this wasn't the reason for my departure from "Christian Orthodoxy", nay, what it did do was to cause me to run, flee to the LORD Jesus.

When I was seeking the LORD during that fast, I told the LORD that I just want to know Him. I made it very clear that I didn't want to know anything about Bible prophecy. This was the last thing that was on my mind. I sought Him and I enjoyed our times together which were quite often, early mornings, middle of the night, days were filled with His presence.

It was near the end of that lengthy fast that I discovered something that I was simply not interested in and it caused me to be completely undone. Like a man who rented his clothes, I felt the renting in my heart and I felt completely naked before God Almighty.

It all started with this one verse, and after reading this one verse, all the other verses surrounded it fit snugly with it. Daniel 9:27

And [H]e shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It was actually Jesus Christ coming to confirm the covenant that God made to Abraham. And that Christ was "cut off" in the middle of the 70th week, and "[H]e (again Jesus) caused the sacrifices and oblation to cease (by His death on the cross) and for the overpreading of Abominations,(Isaiah 66:3) (they kept on sacrificing) Christ would make it desolate by using the Roman Army(Ezekiel 29:19-20) Even unto the consummation (the end of the age Daniel 9:24). And desolation were determined, God would send out a sword after the Jewish people were dispersed, a sword would follow them for rejecting their Messiah. Ezekiel 5:2,12

Well now, It seemed the LORD wanted me to know about bible prophesy after all. But not the way many would have it to be so.

This is the beginning. But it's certainly not the end. I will pick up on this, and we shall look at verse 24-27 more carefully, and not with Scofields eyes, as he is the one that brought in this mess interpreting verse 27 as a seven year peace treaty with Israel.

I will not touch on the coming of the LORD because as I said, much ground work needs to be covered. I did not believe in the second coming until I studied more into this.

P.S. Walter, I will not be reading anymore of your postings or your PM's. I know what you believe, as I believed the same way at one time, so if your addressing anything to me, I will not be reading them. I am not mad at you or anything like that, I simply look at this as a Paul and Barnabas situation. I hope you can understand that Brother. Be at peace. 8-)

Thank you for this post DT. It sure makes things much clearer for me personally. I look forward to reading more of your thinking.

You're far from alone on the Dan 9:27 issue.

Thanks for opening up our can-ook AD!

GOD Bless you both.

I have to say I don't have much light on Daniel 9, and want to continue to wait patiently till I have a Spirit-birthed revelation and conviction on it.

What's a can-ook?

Good memory you have AD! :-)

After saying it a few times, it just didn't matter anymore to me personally. Just figure with us being seated in Heavenly Places with Christ, it doesn't quite matter that much - Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Praise our Everlasting GOD!

Isa 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of His understanding.