What do you say to someonew ho says, "We are justified by faith and therefore we do not need to live holy" or "we are not justified by the works of the law and therefore we do not need to repent of our sins to be saved". How do you respond to this?
It may seem simplistic to some, but I think it best to let scripture talk rather than rely on the wisdom of man.
[i]2Ti 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
The only way to respond to heresy is to
confront with the truth of God's Word!!
The Word of God only promises wrath for those who are in their sins. And the Word of God promises mercy only to those who give up their sins.
the Word of God promises mercy only to those who give up their sins.
So what happens if we die without one given up?
For instance, let's say I didn't realize that what is sin to me at this point in my walk was sin five years ago. What if I had been hit by a bus?
Either Christ's death was enough to pay for ALL of my sins(past, present, and future) or it wasn't.
Better yet, God no longer deals with me according to my sin because I made righteous in Christ. Therefore my sin may bring chastening, but NEVER damnation.
That's the Good News, it isn't good advice(i.e. "you better get rid of all your sin") that sounds more like, "you better shout, you better not cry, you better not pout, I'm telling you why".
Something happened two thousand years ago that has dealt with my sin the moment I put faith in Him and His work; "he that knew no sin was made to be sin for me, so that I would be made the righteousness of God in Him" 2 Corinthians 5:21
So either Christ's death handled it or it didn't
Trufaithsave said:
[b]The Word of God only promises wrath for those who are in their sins. And the Word of God promises mercy only to those who give up their sins.[/b]
I like that answer. How do we give up our sins? We must believe on Him who had no sin, and went to the cross in our place, AND TOOK OUR OWN WRATH UPON HIMSELF!
(2 Cor 5:21)
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
God bless you, brother
Walter
So what happens if we die without one given up?roaringlamb wrote:the Word of God promises mercy only to those who give up their sins.
For instance, let's say I didn't realize that what is sin to me at this point in my walk was sin five years ago.
IOW, what sin would someone do for years and not know about it until the Holy Spirit puts His finger on it?
If you had a right relationship with the Father through Christ, then the sin which HE is dealing with you at that time would be forgiven; knowing that you will repent.What if I had been hit by a bus?
future sins can not be forgiven. That would imply that God counts on you sinning, or requires you to sin.Either Christ's death was enough to pay for ALL of my sins(past, present, and future) or it wasn't.
However, don't call your self a sinner.Better yet, God no longer deals with me according to my sin because I'm made righteous in Christ. Therefore my sin may bring chastening, but NEVER damnation.
furthermore, you don't have to sin.
Would a father not tell his child, "you'd better stop spitting in my face".That's the Good News, it isn't good advice(i.e. "you better get rid of all your sin") that sounds more like, "you better shout, you better not cry, you better not pout, I'm telling you why".
Or does that sound like, "you better shout, you better not cry, you better not pout, I'm telling you why"
Christ's death handled it for sure, however, don't call your self a sinner.Something happened two thousand years ago that has dealt with my sin the moment I put faith in Him and His work; "he that knew no sin was made to be sin for me, so that I would be made the righteousness of God in Him" 2 Corinthians 5:21So either Christ's death handled it or it didn't
furthermore, You don't have to sin, therefore, you can be sinnless.
Or are you saying that you can't stop sinning?
If you are, you're basically telling God that.
If he "knew" that you couldn't stop sinning, He wouldn't demand it.
However, since He commands you to stop sinning, you should, right now.
In a way, your calling Him a liar by saying that you to stop sinning:
He says that you can stop sinning by commanding you to, and here you are saying that God is wrong, you can't stop sinning.
Why is it you think that you can not do that which God wishes?
God commands us not to sin, but here you are saying that you must sin; saying that you can't help it; saying that His commands are impossible
Or are you saying that you can't stop sinning?
Since this is the main question surrounding the other points of your questions, I will answer it rather than go point by point through the others.
In a nutshell, NO, I cannot.
I say this because I know that the Law demands that I love the Lord with ALL of my heart, and love my neighbor as myself(meaning with the same care and concern that I give myself).
On top of this, there are the sins of omission(the things I know I should do, but neglect) that are just as bad as the sins of commission(the actual sins I commit).
Consider these two verses to see the extent of sin in man-
"For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin" (Romans 14:23 ESV)
"So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin." (James 4:17 ESV)
I don't use these as an excuse to sin as the Holy Spirit is conforming me daily, but the reality is that sin is much more than you are making it.
The Law itself shows that we are incapable of not sinning. For it demands perfect obedience 24/7 365 days a year.
This is why justification is the crucial point of the Good News. It does not so much change the person as much as it changes the view of that person.(Please note that change is inevitable as the person has been made alive and has a new priority and principle driving them).
For example if you say something that I don not agree with, I would ask you to "justify" what you have said. I am not asking you to change what you said, but moreso change my view of what you said so that I would see it differently. This of course is what God has done in Christ. All who have faith in Him are seen differently by the Father. They are loved and are no longer alienated from Him.
As I said before, sin does not rule me, nor does its death have a hold on me any longer, it exists in me as one who would try to overthrow the reign of the King, but it cannot.
I will be chastened, and this will further sanctify me, but I am no longer condemned and no longer subject to God's wrath.
I fear that you may be lessening the Law to make yourself appear righteous(I could be wrong), but once the Law hits home, you will never try to be right by what you do or don't do, instead you will rest in Christ's righteousness alone.
In light of all of this, let me ask you a question, have you sinned today? Not by your standards, but by what God says is sin, things like doubting His faithfulness, feeling better than others, not loving your neighbor in the same way you love yourself(by the way, if you ate today, but didn't feed another without food, you broke this). So have you sinned today?
If so, does this not show that you too sin even though God commands you not to?
don't call your self a sinner
I am, and I am a saint. Or if you like, I am a loved failure.
Better, I am "simul justus et pecator"(simultaneously justified and sinful).
I know we will go round and round about this, because we have differing views of the Fall and its implications, but just so you know, I still value you as a brother and that is more important than our squabbles. :-D
roaringlamb wrote:Either Christ's death was enough to pay for ALL of my sins(past, present, and future) or it wasn't.
I hear people use that phrase down here in the Bible belt and for once and for all, I'd really like somebody to provide the Scripture reference for our "future sins" being paid for, where it's found.
It is not my intention to argue with you (unless you infer future sins upon an innocent verse!) (huge grin) Naw, seriously... [b]where in the Word of God it actually states that our future sins have already been forgiven.
I will thank you ahead of time!
God bless,
where in the Word of God it actually states that our future sins have already been forgiven
You may be right in saying that the wording is not there, but that is what justification is. It is a legal declaration that God for the sake of Jesus Christ no longer holds my sin against me(past, present, and future).
So maybe it is not right to say He died for future sins [i]per se
I hope this clears up some of the confusion I have created. Sometimes language is tricky :-)
This is why Paul is so quick to point out that no one who is truly born again will respond by saying, "oh, now I can sin all I want to!" as once the Spirit is in a person, there is a battle as it says in Galatians, the flesh wars against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh, and these are contrary to each other.
It is also why those who are chastened for their sin should rejoice, because they are being treated as true children and not illegitimate children.
Hi Lysa,
1 Peter 3:18 says "Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit",
This means that all our sins are forgiven. That Christ blood has washed the stain of sin and made us as white as snow and righteous before the father (positionally). However we still need to repent and seek his mercy on a daily basis for sins committed against him. This is our daily washing of sin and needed in our pursuit of (practical) righteousness though we are clean. THough we will continue to sin untill he calls us we are assured that IF we repent of our sins we can be forgiven of all sins in the past, present and the future.
Also consider
Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption throught his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance wieht the riches of God's grace
John 1:29 says "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world"!
Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to GOd from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Christ death on the cross atoned for all our sins and has appeased the righteous wrath of God once and for all. We no longer need to atone (or sacrifice bull, goats,,etc.) for our sin because Christ death is sufficient to cover for all of our sins. We have positional forgiveness for all our sins but like I've mentioned before we need to repent of all sins committed to experience that forgiveness on a daily basis.
Hope that helps a little.
Jesus died for the whole world but the world is not yet saved from the wrath of God. The atonement makes forgiveness available and possible for everyone, but until a person repents and believes they are not saved from God's wrath. Many of those who Jesus died for will go to hell because they do not give up their sins and turn to Him. God will only turn from His wrath when sinners turn from their sins. God still has wrath after the atonement. In order to have the mercy of God through Jesus Christ we must turn from our sins. And in order to keep the mercy of God through Jesus Christ we must stay away from sin. God has wrath for everyone who is sinning. God only has mercy for those who give up their sinning.
Many of those who Jesus died for will go to hell
Allow me to push on this a little if you will.
Where in Scripture do you find this? I'm curious to see how someone whom Christ died for and intercedes for can end up perishing?
To me that makes Christ's death pointless, as in it didn't really accomplish what it was meant to do and would kind of be in contradiction to Christ saying that He would give His life for the sheep and that none that were given to Him by the Father would be lost.
Can you help me see your position?
Christ died for all men (Isa. 45:22; 53:6; 55:1; Eze. 18:30-32; Matt. 23:37; Mk. 16:15-16; Lk. 2:10-11; Jn. 1:29; 3:16; Rom. 2:11; 5:15; Heb. 2:9; 2 Cor. 5:14-15; 1 Tim. 2:11; 4:10; Tit. 2:11; Heb. 2:9; 2 Pet. 2:1; 1 Jn. 2:22; Rev. 3:20).
Yet, even though Christ died for all men that doesn't mean that all men are saved. The death of Christ makes forgiveness available, but until conversion forgiveness does not become actual. The atonement was unlimited but salvation is limited. The atonement was made for everyone, even those who do not repent and believe and go to hell. But the atonement only saves from hell those who repent and believe. Only those who are converted are saved, even though Jesus died for everyone. Jesus died so that our penalty could be remitted (remission of sins) but God does not actually remit our penalty of eternal hell until conversion when we turn from sin and turn to Christ.
Jesus died for the whole world but the world is still under the wrath of God unless they repent. God still has wrath after the atonement, but because of the atonement God can turn from His wrath. The atonement makes it possible for God to turn from His wrath, but until sinners turn from their sins He doesn't turn from His wrath.
The atonement does not automatically or unconditionally save anyone. The atonement makes forgiveness available to everyone. Those whom Christ died for can still perish (1 Cor. 8:11) if they choose to continue in their sin (Heb. 10:26-31). Though Christ died for all, many are on the broad road (Matt. 7:13). It’s possible to deny the Lord that bought us and thereby fall into condemnation (2 Pet. 2:1). The wrath of God is impartial (Ex. 32:33; Deut. 10:17; Rom. 2:9; 2 Cor. 10:6; Col. 3:25; 2 Pet. 1:17; 1 Jn. 3:15; Rev. 21:8; 22:15), so anyone who consciously or knowingly transgresses or revolts is under condemnation (Jn. 3:19; Rom. 1:18; 2:6-11; Heb. 10:26-31; 1 Jn. 3:8; 3:15; 3:20; 2 Jn. 1:9)
Ok so let's start with the Prophets that you quoted. Who were those words spoken to? Was it not people who were part of the Covenant community of God? Was it not calling the people of God to return to Him?
Now granted there are passages in the Prophets that speak of a coming time when the Messiah would come.
It is interesting that you left off this verse-
"Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make [b]many[b]he shall bear their iniquities
Notice it says "many", and that the iniquities of this "many" will have their sins removed. No mention of all.
The Matthew passage says nothing at all about Christ dying for anyone.
The Luke 2 passage says nothing about Christ dying for the world.
The John passage simply means that the Lamb of God was taking away sin not just the Jews or Israel, but for all nations and peoples.
Romans 5:15 is interesting because it says "many", but not "all" and is referring to those under the headship of the two heads being presented; Adam and Christ.
I'm going to jump down to the 2 Peter passage as it usually gets used in these talks. Please look at the word for Lord. It is not the word "kurios" which is used for Christ. It is "despotes" and this passage is telling of false prophets among you as there were among them. Of course we need to see who the "them" is. Would it not be Israel?
If so, who bought them from Egypt? and were all of those who were bought then saved?
Revelation 3:20 is not written to unbelievers, it is written to a Church, so it doesn't apply.
Now allow me to post some Scriptures for you to think over.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Notice that in these two verses, those who come will be raised up.
But what is even more amazing is this verse in between the two-
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
None that have been given to Christ will be lost. This seems to fit perfectly with Romans 8:28-30
"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
Notice those whom He predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ will be called, justified, and glorified. Hence the past tense usage of the verbs.
There are more, but I think these make a good case for discussion.
You believe in limited atonement and eternal security?
Jesus has died for everyone who has ever sinned:
"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us [u]all
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the [u]whole
That is why salvation is available to every individual.
Because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, God will turn from His wrath if sinners turn from their sins. But if sinners do not turn from their sins, God will not turn from His wrath, even though Jesus Christ has died for all sinners.
You believe in limited atonement and eternal security?
I believe that those whom Christ died for will be saved, and they will persevere to the end. I don't believe in what is commonly called OSAS as too many mistake that to mean they don't have to be regenerated or bear fruit to be saved.
I believe that Christ came to purchase a people from every tribe, tongue, and nation, and that those people will make it to the end because He that began a good work in them is faithful to complete it.
I try to stay away from the terminology of Limited Atonement as it is more often a source of argument, and seems to automatically turn the conversation into a Calvinist/Arminian debate rather than glorying in Christ who has redeemed a people for Himself. Of which both you and I are a part of, and in that I rejoice no matter our differences on theological ideas.
Regarding limited atonement and eternal security, did you learn this interpretation of the Bible on your own or from listening to a Calvinist teacher?
How long have you been a Christian? Have you always believed in eternal security and limited atonement? Was there ever a time that you were a Christian, who read the Bible, and you did not believe these things?
did you learn this interpretation of the Bible on your own or from listening to a Calvinist teacher?
I learned it on my own and hadn't really read any Calvinist authors(aside from Morning and Evening by Spurgeon).
How long have you been a Christian?Have you always believed in eternal security and limited atonement? Was there ever a time that you were a Christian, who read the Bible, and you did not believe these things?
I have been a Christian about ten years, and no I didn't always believe this. I once believed that I could lose my salvation if I even sneezed wrongly. I was a self righteous, insecure person who thought that if I didn't keep the Law, God could never love me, so I worked for my salvation, and worked harder than anyone I knew. I made everyone miserable around me because I got it and they didn't and because I was holy and they weren't.
It was a glorious day when the truth of the Gospel and justification finally sunk in and I realized that I was loved by God because of my glorious Savior, not my works.
So, no I didn't always believe these things, and I fought against them as much as I could, but ultimately I had to submit to Scripture as I saw it.
So if a person does not believe in limited atonement and eternal security, do you think they are self righteous, insecurity, and trying to be saved by their works?
You can believe in conditional security and not be self righteous, and not be insecure, and not believe in earning your salvation. I believe in conditional security but I believe if I live righteous it is because of the work of Jesus in my life. I also believe I am secure as long as I abide in Christ. And I do not believe that my obedience can atone for my sin, but I do believe that my salvation depends upon my repentance and perseverence.
And you can believe in unlimited atonement and not be a universalist. The atonement does not unconditionally save anyone. It makes pardon available and possible.
So if a person does not believe in limited atonement and eternal security, do you think they are self righteous, insecurity, and trying to be saved by their works?
Not at all, that was my own struggle. I do find though that the doctrine of justification by faith is largely either misunderstood or ignored to a large degree these days.
We don't all need to agree on everything to be brothers, and I am glad for the differences in opinions on things.
I agree with you that the doctrine of justification by faith has been largely misunderstood today. I have heard people say that because we are justified by faith, we do not need to repent of our sins, because that would be adding works to faith instead of trusting in the finished work of Christ!
Any view of justification, faith, or the atonement, which is incompatible with repentance (changing your mind about sinning) is a false view. The prophets preached repentance. John the Baptist preached repentance. Jesus Christ preached repentance. Even Paul's ministry was to bring repentance to the Gentiles! Any view of justification by grace through faith, which says that you do not need to turn from your sins, is false. When a person makes repentance from sin and justification by works of the law synonomous, they do not understand repentance or justification at all and must not be saved.
dear truefaithsav, i disagree on one of your major points; which doesnt make me correct. if one can turn from their sin they would not need Jesus; the biblical repentance is giving up the rule of my life and giving it to Jesus...Gal 2:20 thus Jesus is the saviour and sanctifying agent. the cross did more than we can comprehend.jimp
Totally wrong!jimp wrote:
if one can turn from their sin they would not need Jesus
The biblical repentance is turning away from sin and toward God, and in faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21).The biblical repentance is giving up the rule of my life and giving it to Jesus
If you are still sinning, then you are not yet turned away from sin and toward God.
If you are still sinning, then you have not repented.
Sin is always a choice, there is no such thing as "oops, I sinned"
No one has to sin. You can stop.
If we cannot help but to sin, we cannot be blamed for sinning. If we cannot be blamed for sinning, we cannot be punished. If we do not deserve punishment, we do not need Jesus Christ. Therefore if we cannot help but to sin, we do not need Jesus Christ.
If sin is avoidable, men deserve punishment for sinning. If men deserve punishment for sinning, men need Jesus Christ. Therefore only if sin is avoidable do men need Jesus Christ.
If we are born sinners, it is not our fault. If it is not our fault we don't deserve hell. If we don't deserve hell, we don't need Jesus Christ. So if you are born a sinner you don't need Jesus.
But if men are sinners by choice, when they could choose not to sin, then it is their own fault that they are sinners. If it is their own fault that they are sinners, they deserve hell. And if they deserve hell, they need Jesus Christ. If men are sinners by choice, they need Jesus Christ.
We need Jesus Christ because sin is avoidable and we have all chosen to sin. If sin was unavoidable and if we were not sinners by choice, we wouldn't need Jesus Christ at all.
If you are still sinning, then you are not yet turned away from sin and toward God. If you are still sinning, then you have not repented. Sin is always a choice, there is no such thing as "oops, I sinned" No one has to sin. You can stop.
Can you say that in light of the Law and its perfect demands?
Do you ALWAYS love the Lord your God with ALL you heart , mind, soul, and strength?
Do you ALWAYS love your neighbor as yourself?
If not, you are sinning.
How about your thought life? You never have a thought that is wrong(I'm not talking about lustful ones only, but ones that you might have with me. Ones of irritation or superiority).
Again, whatever is not of faith is SIN.
So that means when we take an anxious thought, it is sinful since Jesus said not to. When we worry about things like provision, it is sinful as it dishonors God.
Thankfully Christ has taken the punishment for those, He was cut off from the Father so I will never be, He became poor that I might be rich.
Your view sounds much more like that of the Pharisees who thought sin was only external acts, but not issues of the heart.
Have you ever worried about man's approval of you? That is sin.
I could go on and on, but I think you are missing what sin is, and by doing so, you miss the point of just how deeply sinful we are.
Even if everyone sins every day in word, thought, and deed, that does not negate the fact that nobody ever had to sin a day in their life. The fact of sin does not prove the necessity of sin. Even if nobody ever repented of their sins and lived holy, that does not negate the fact that we could repent of our sins and live holy. It is possible not to sin even if everybody does sin.
Re: "Jesus has died for everyone who has ever sinned" by truefaithsav
"If one is to live by God's words, then it is necessary to make certain that what we are living by truly is a word or words that have proceeded from God. This requires the testing of the translation one is using. And it requires as much study of the original languages from which a translation is made as can be done in the time God's providence has allotted. It is well to remember that all men are to be juged by the words which God has spoken through the prophets and apostles. It is not enough to simply have a general sense of scripture...
It is a principle alien to true christianity to rest on men's interpretation of the words of God. No man ever has authority in himself, it is the Spirt that witnesses to the truth. Nevertheless, one is a servant of God only if he or she can give a complete demonstration of what he says from the Scriptures. And to be sure that there is no change of the emphasis that God himself has given, this calls for a healthy search of the meaning of the original word written, in its complete context." (Jay P. Green, Sr.)
Thus saith the LORD,
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." John 10:11
"Even as the Father knows Me, I also know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep." John 10:15
"But you do not believe for you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. " John 10:26
These three verses above are enough to disprove truefaithsav's quote above. The very subject is the atoning death of Christ in the first two verses.Here Christ Himself tells us who He is dying for. And the third verse excludes these who have 'sinned' which He is speaking to, as Christ said to them 'you are not of My sheep'.
Furthermore,
"Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock among which the Holy Spirit has placed you to take the oversight for Him and act as shepherds to the Church of God, which He has bought with His own blood." Acts 20:28
"Husbands, love your wives, even as the Messiah loved his church, and delivered himself up for it" Eph. 5:25
In these two verses above we again have the subject of His atoning death. He explicitly tells us again that He died for 'the flock','the Church of God',and 'his church'.
In the following verse in Hebrews we again see 'the sheep' as the objects of His atoning 'blood of the eternal covenant'.
"Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant" Heb. 13:20
"And she will bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins." Matthew 1:21
In the prophecy above we're given the intent and purpose of Christ coming and dying. It is not to make men save-able(savable)but rather that 'He shall save His people'. And He did so according to His promise in His Word. Glory be to His Name!
Nowhere in Scripture is such a concept taught or implied, that Christ came to make men savable.
"For the Son of Man also did not come to be waited upon, but to wait on others, and to give His life as the redemption-price for a multitude of people." Mark 10:45
Above we have the atoning death of Christ as the redemption-price not for all without exception, but in agreement with the whole counsel of His Word, for 'a multitude of people'.
Thus saith the LORD,
"All things are delivered to me by my Father; and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." Matthew 11:27
Luke 10:22, "All things are delivered to me by my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him."
He alone it is Who reveals THE TRUTH as it is in JESUS.
Of course Jesus died for his sheep. He died for everyone. That includes his sheep!
It is a logical fallacy to say, "Jesus died for his sheep and therefore he didn't die for everyone". If he died for everyone, then he also died for his sheep!
If I say, "God created males" that doesn't mean that He didn't creat women. If I say, "God created women" that doesn't mean He create men.
Likewise, when the Bible says that Jesus died for His sheep that doesn't mean that He didn't die for everyone. It is a logical fallacy to say Jesus died for His sheep and therefore He didn't die for everyone.
Jesus died for my sins. That doesn't mean He didn't die for your sins!
And yes Jesus died for "many" people. Dying for everyone certainly is dying for many! Just as "by one man's disobedience many were made sinners" means everyone, so also "by one man's obedience many were made righteous" means everyone. Sometimes many means all, since all is many people!
"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us [u]all
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the [u]whole
The Bible couldn't teach unlimited atonement in any more explicit language!! "All" means all! Just like "all have sinned" means every individual, so Jesus dying for "all" means every individual! "Whole world" means everyone! The Apostle John said He didn't just die for "our sins" (the Church or Christians) but He died for the sins of the whole world (even those who don't repent and go to hell)
Limited atonement is another Gospel. It is not the Gospel of the Bible. Jesus died for every individual, making forgiveness available to everyone. But nobody recieves forgiveness until they repent and believe. Calvary makes it possible for God to turn from His wrath, but until conversion nobody is saved from God's wrath.
Can you say that in light of the Law and its perfect demands?roaringlamb wrote:If you are still sinning, then you are not yet turned away from sin and toward God. If you are still sinning, then you have not repented. Sin is always a choice, there is no such thing as "oops, I sinned" No one has to sin. You can stop.
Notice that God does not command that we love Him with faculties that we do not possess, but rather that we love Him with all that we currently possess, “with all thy,” as opposed to with that which is not currently yours. The commandments are directions to man as to how he is to use his ability. The commandments of God are not impossible, demanding that we love Him with a heart, soul, mind and strength that we do not have. Rather, it is possible to keep the law of God, which demands that we love Him with all of what we do have, with all that we are capable of, to the very highest of our ability, no more and no less. It is possible to keep the law because we are capable, and we are capable because it is possible to keep the law; our God-given commandments and our God-given ability directly correspond with each other. The command of God is that we love to the very highest of our ability, no more and no less, and therefore we are able to keep the law of love; we are able to keep the commandments of Jesus (1 Jn. 2:3; 3:22; 5:2-3; Rev. 12:17; 14:12; 22:14). Obedience is always possible, and disobedience is never necessary or unavoidable. The highest that our ability is capable of is all that the law of God commands, no more and no less. The law of God is the law of our ability, to love Him supremely and our neighbor equally, according to our ability, with all of our ability, “with all thy.”
(Jesse Morrell)
We all are able, therefore, you can stop sinning.Do you ALWAYS love the Lord your God with ALL you heart , mind, soul, and strength?
God does not give commandments which men cannot obey. He is not arbitrary, severe, so unloving, as to issue commandments which cannot be obeyed? The answer is that in all of annals of Holy Scripture, not a single instance is recorded of God having commanded any man to do a thing, which was beyond his power. God is not so unjust and so inconsiderate as to require of man that which he is unable to render. To infer is to slander the character of God (E. M. Bounds)
Not all thoughts are your own.How about your thought life? You never have a thought that is wrong(I'm not talking about lustful ones only, but ones that you might have with me. Ones of irritation or superiority).
Jesus had a thought to turn stones into bread. He did not sin with that thought, He took control and put it out of His mind.
One is able to never sin in thought or deed.
When anxiety comes, I do not take it, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God and the peace of God, which passes all understanding, shall keep my heart and mind through Christ Jesus (Php 4:6-7).So that means when we take an anxious thought, it is sinful since Jesus said not to. When we worry about things like provision, it is sinful as it dishonors God.
What?Your view sounds much more like that of the Pharisees who thought sin was only external acts, but not issues of the heart.
However, when I choose to sin, even if I didn't committing that chosen sin, I still sinned in my heart.
"In the same way, the one who has the mind to commit adultery is already guilty. The decision to do it - even before the act is complete, and before the opportunity has been presented - constitutes the essence of sin. Again, sin is the decision to gratify a good appetite in a bad way." Paris Reidhead
Why are you trying to convict me of sin, I know that I have sinned. I am only saying that no one ever NEEDS to sin; you don't have to.Have you ever worried about man's approval of you? That is sin.
I know what sin is, and I choose not to sin.I could go on and on, but I think you are missing what sin is, and by doing so, you miss the point of just how deeply sinful we are.
Christians are not sinful.
you miss the point of just how not sinful we are if we are truly Christians.
Brother Logic,
Why should God receive you into Heaven?
1Jn 1:5-10 "This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. [b]If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth[b]If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us[b]If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives
Confession and repentance is a lifelong duty of all believers. If we refuse to see our sins, we cannot confess. Without confession and repentance, there is no forgiveness.
To roaringlamb:
I have been away from this thread for awhile, and looked on tonight. It is hard for me to understand much of this thread. Sure, everyone has lots to say, and quotes Scripture from time to time to support their positions.
I would like to address the ‘Doctrine” of limited atonement presented by roaringlamb:
[b]I believe that those whom Christ died for will be saved, and they will persevere to the end. I don't believe in what is commonly called OSAS as too many mistake that to mean they don't have to be regenerated or bear fruit to be saved.I believe that Christ came to purchase a people from every tribe, tongue, and nation, and that those people will make it to the end because He that began a good work in them is faithful to complete it.
[u]I try to stay away from the terminology of Limited Atonement as it is more often a source of argument, and seems to automatically turn the conversation into a Calvinist/Arminian debate rather than glorying in Christ who has redeemed a people for Himself. Of which both you and I are a part of, and in that I rejoice no matter our differences on theological ideas.[/u] [/b]
When John the Baptist announced Jesus Christ for the first time, what were his words?
…….Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
(John 1:29)
Does John say---part of the sin of the world? Does John say----only the sin of those that in God's foreknowledge knows who are the real believers? No, Jesus came to die for all the sin of mankind. The first Adam brought sin into the world, and all of mankind has inherited Adams sin nature. The last Adam, Jesus Christ, paid the price, the wrath of God, for all of the sin of man, starting at the beginning of time and extending to the end of time.
We have all heard of the Book of Life, and that only those who are saved are written into the Book. However, when we read the following Scripture, we know and understand that Christ did indeed die for all humanity, and all of humanity is offered salvation. Those that do not accept it are ERASED from the Book of Life:
Psalm 69:28
“ Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.”
Psalm 109:13
“Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.”
Psalm 109:14
14.\tLet the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the Lord; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.
Everyone that has ever been born has his name written in the Lambs Book of Life, based upon the Work of Jesus Christ upon the Cross. However, at the end of every life those who did not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior are erased (blotted out) of the Book. Everyone has a chance. But God, in His foreknowledge and omniscience, who knows the end from the beginning, knows in advance who will be saved, and who will be lost.
We are all called to examine ourselves, to be certain that we are in the faith. There is no such thing as once saved, always saved. All of those that are saved are ‘being” sanctified by their personal walk with the Lord.
Jesus tells us in John 17:16-19 that we have a practical progressive sanctification of our present life by the application of the truth of God’s Word.
At the Great White Throne Judgement for the lost, the Books are opened. What Books? The Bible, and the Lambs Book of Life. The Bible is presented to the lost becuse it is the standard of judgment. Since they rejected God, and refused this Book, their own lives are examined and compared to God's Law, the Bible, the standard. All of them are found lacking & guilty by committing only one sin. Next, the Book of Life is opened up, and their name is no longer there, it has been blotted out because they did not accept the works of their sinless substitute, during their lifetime:
(Rev 20:12-15)
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The bottom line is that Jesus Christ, who had within Him the fullness of the Godhead bodily, bore ALL the sins of Humanity upon Himself, and paid the penalty for all. He indeed was the last Adam, the sin-bearer, for all. However, only those that believe in Him, and His atoneing Work on the Cross will be part of the salvation that He offered to all of mankind—from the beginning of time to the end of time.
Sincerley,
Walter
Walter,
That was very clear, and very well said. Thank you.
The bottom line is that Jesus Christ, who had within Him the fullness of the Godhead bodily, bore ALL the sins of Humanity upon Himself, and paid the penalty for all
Brother IF this is true(that Jesus has paid for all mankind's sins), then there would be no need for Hell, and none would go there.
I know that you do not believe in Universalism, so that is not an option for either of us which leaves us to wrestle with the fact that those whom Christ purchased will be saved, and only those. It has nothing to do with a free will decision as ALL of mankind's will is set against God until He gives them eyes to see the glory of Christ as Savior and Lord.
In regard to the term "world", it might be wiser to say that the Messiah, the Lamb of God did in fact give His life for people out of every tribe, tongue and nation and not just Israel as the Jews believed. It was thoroughly and utterly foolish to them(Israel)that ANY outside of Israel would be brought into the Covenant community. We see this all throughout the book of Acts and the Epistles. Peter himself struggled with it until his vision on the rooftop.
Since man is not free to choose Christ, and since not all men will be saved, the only remaining option available is that God has purchased men and women out of the world and those will be saved as Scripture says, "those whom He foreknew, He predestined..."(please take note that this says "whom" He foreknew and not "that which" He foreknew meaning a foreseen decision).
I know all the verses that will be thrown back, as I once was an Arminian of Arminians and I was heavily involved in the Calvary Chapel Organization, but I am thoroughly convinced that the Scriptures teach that only those whom God has chosen will be saved. I understand that this is offensive in our day of thinking that things must be fair or they are not right, as well as the fact that this more often than not boils down to an emotional argument because we think we know how many God has called.
We do not know who or how many God has called and it is our duty to preach the Gospel as it is the power of God for salvation. he will give life as He sees fit and His work will be perfect.
I wonder why you didn't post this verse from Revelation in regards to the Book of Life-
Revelation 13:8 ESV "and all who dwell on earth will worship it, [b]everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life
That kind of echoes what Paul wrote about Christians being chosen "in Christ" before the foundation of the World does it not?
Also, there is this verse which shows the division of those who are written and those who are not-
Revelation 17:8 ESV "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth [b]whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world
I don't care about arguing for a particular belief system(i.e. Calvinism) but rather for Scriptural integrity.
To roaringlamb:
You posted:
[/b][b]I wonder why you didn't post this verse from Revelation in regards to the Book of Life-
Revelation 13:8 ESV "and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain."
To make sense of this, we must compare it to the whole counsel of God. Based upon what I previously posted, in addition to what you have posted, what does it tell us that Christ did for us, before the foundation of the world?
Ephesians 1:4-5
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
[b]The only way God chose us is that in his foreknowledge he knew who would believe in the seed of the woman, in the Messiah, in Jesus Christ, before he created anything, but He created everything anyway!
[b]This tells us that the works that Jesus Christ performed were finished from the foundation of the World, in God's point of view (since He knows the end from the beginning!).
(Hebrews 4;3)
3.For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
How can that be? Because God is all powerful, and all knowing, knowing the end from the beginning. He knew who would be saved, but he died for all. [b]No one will have an excuse on judgment day.
Initially, all men/women were written in the lambs book of life (eventhough God knew whose names would be erased, would be blotted out). Those that do not believe are blotted out of it at the end of their lives.God knew in the beginning, before creation itself, who would not believe, but their names were initially there anyway.[b] At the Great White Throne Judgment, they will have no excuse!
In regards to your post:
Rev 13:8
everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
The answer, of course, is that God knows the end from the beginning- who would come to belief, and who would not, yet initially all names were there, and He died for all, yet He knew those names who would be blotted out.
[color=990000][b]God's perspective is surely different than our own.[/color]
Sincerely,
Walter
roaringlamb wrote:The bottom line is that Jesus Christ, who had within Him the fullness of the Godhead bodily, bore ALL the sins of Humanity upon Himself, and paid the penalty for all
Brother IF this is true(that Jesus has paid for all mankind's sins), then there would be no need for Hell, and none would go there.
I know that you do not believe in Universalism, so that is not an option for either of us which leaves us to wrestle with the fact that those whom Christ purchased will be saved, and only those. It has nothing to do with a free will decision as ALL of mankind's will is set against God until He gives them eyes to see the glory of Christ as Savior and Lord.
In regard to the term "world", it might be wiser to say that the Messiah, the Lamb of God did in fact give His life for people out of every tribe, tongue and nation and not just Israel as the Jews believed. It was thoroughly and utterly foolish to them(Israel)that ANY outside of Israel would be brought into the Covenant community. We see this all throughout the book of Acts and the Epistles. Peter himself struggled with it until his vision on the rooftop.
Since man is not free to choose Christ, and since not all men will be saved, the only remaining option available is that God has purchased men and women out of the world and those will be saved as Scripture says, "those whom He foreknew, He predestined..."(please take note that this says "whom" He foreknew and not "that which" He foreknew meaning a foreseen decision).
I know all the verses that will be thrown back, as I once was an Arminian of Arminians and I was heavily involved in the Calvary Chapel Organization, but I am thoroughly convinced that the Scriptures teach that only those whom God has chosen will be saved. I understand that this is offensive in our day of thinking that things must be fair or they are not right, as well as the fact that this more often than not boils down to an emotional argument because we think we know how many God has called.
We do not know who or how many God has called and it is our duty to preach the Gospel as it is the power of God for salvation. he will give life as He sees fit and His work will be perfect.
I wonder why you didn't post this verse from Revelation in regards to the Book of Life-
Revelation 13:8 ESV "and all who dwell on earth will worship it, [b]everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life
That kind of echoes what Paul wrote about Christians being chosen "in Christ" before the foundation of the World does it not?
Also, there is this verse which shows the division of those who are written and those who are not-
Revelation 17:8 ESV "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth [b]whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world
I don't care about arguing for a particular belief system(i.e. Calvinism) but rather for Scriptural integrity.
[b]"X-MEN"
Marked for life: discernment ministry in light of Ezekiel 9:1-11.
Someone once said that sin is as much breaking God's heart as it is His Law. When God looked down on the perversity of the people on earth before the Deluge, it was recorded that He [b]"was grieved in His heart"
Not unlike the society and church of our times, during Ezekiel's ministry Judah found herself in a moral and spiritual "melt down." Fraud, violence, adultery, and idolatry were running rampant amongst God's chosen people. Idols had been set up in the Temple (Ezekiel 8:17; 9:9). From his location in Babylon, the Lord took Ezekiel on a virtual reality tour of the Temple, the place where on the Mercy Seat beneath the Cherubim, God's Shekinah glory was to have been seated (Ezekiel 8:4). What he saw in that place of worship stunned the prophet. On his guided tour of the inner court, the Lord showed the prophet where first the people had substituted an idol image for Yahweh; where second, the elders worshiped animals; where third, the women sobbed over the death of Tammuz, a mythological fertility god who had married the Egyptian goddess Ishtar; and where fourth, the priests worshiped the sun (Ezekiel 8:5-18). Up-close and personal, the prophet saw how the nation had abominated into apostasy, how Israel had turned from worshiping the Creator to idolizing the creation and its creatures (See Romans 1:21-23.).
Yet in the midst of all those "alternative spiritualities," and like the remnant of Elijah's day who refused to bow their knee to Baal and kiss the idol god (1 Kings 19:18), some believers preserved themselves to be holy unto the Lord. So the Lord instructed the angel dressed in white to mark an "X" on the foreheads of the faithful, a mark that would spare them from the coming divine judgment (circa 600 BC).[1] [b]Most have heard about "the mark of the beast", the mark the deceived will receive at the end of the age, an identity without which they will neither be able to buy or sell (Revelation 14:9-12). The prophet Ezekiel wrote about a different mark, an "X" that was to be written on the foreheads of those in Judah who had refused to go along with the popular spiritual trends of that day. The "X" would spare them from the coming divine wrath. So the Lord instructed the angel: "Go through the midst of the city, even through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst" [i]If we had been alive in Ezekiel's day, would the angel have marked us to be spared from divine judgment?
It was a remnant who strongly disapproved of the apostasy of the majority. In the words of the Lord, they groaned and sighed over the [b]"abominations"[b]Charles Feinberg observed: "Grief is always the portion of those who know the Lord in an evil day. The marked ones were penitent and faithful at a time of widespread departure from the will of the Lord."[2] Another commentator adds that the criterion for receiving the mark was "an affair of the heart--a passionate concern for God and His people. Failing that, there was no mark . . ."[3]
Some in the mainstream Christian media have called those involved in discernment ministry "Christian attack dogs."[4] Maybe a better metaphor-label would be "Christian guard dogs"! Discerners so love their Master (i.e., the Lord Jesus Christ) and His Bride (i.e., the church) that they agonize to protect His truth and her purity.
Allow me to propose a litmus test as to whether or not we might have been marked in Ezekiel's day. But before asking some questions, we should note the Apostle Peter's warning: [b]"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you"
Well, you might be asking, how can we know whether or not a person is a false teacher? Through Jeremiah the Lord provided this description of false prophets: [b]"The prophets are prophesying falsehood in My name. I have neither sent them nor commanded them nor spoken to them; they are prophesying to you a false vision, divination, futility and the deception of their own minds" (Jeremiah 14:14). Of such prophets Jeremiah said that, "They speak a vision of their own imagination, not from the mouth of the Lord" (Jeremiah 23:16b).[b]"the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error" (1 John 4:4-6)
From his study of human history, a famous historian once remarked how he observed that the majority was seldom right. Jesus agreed. He said: [b]"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it." He continued to say, "For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it." Then the Lord concluded: "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves" (Matthew 7:13-15).[b]"X-Men"
For any Christians concerned to discern, they may be comforted to know they're taking the narrow Way. A spirit of discernment is symptomatic of true faith. The Lord's sheep care, yes, even "sigh and groan" when they see fellow evangelicals lapsing into worldliness and ungodliness. Goats however, are unmoved (Matthew 25:31-46). Yet the caring can be comforted to know that their discernment evidences their solidarity with the One who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Being concerned to discern marks them out-- "X" -- as true believers (See 1 John 2:18-24.). Yet the overriding emotion of discernment ought to be that of grief. Yes, there may be a time for anger. God gets angry. He was with Ezekiel's generation, so much so that after He had told the angel in white to mark the believing remnant, the Lord instructed the other six angels, "Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." (Ezekiel 9:5b-6). Yet we must remember that, "the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God" (James 1:20).
So it's truly a sad day when we see those professing to know God believing and behaving as if they do not. So it's significant to note that the divine judgment was to begin in the sanctuary and then work its way out through Jerusalem and the rest of the entire nation (Compare 1 Peter 4:17.). This order of judgment compelled Paul to command the congregation at Rome: [b]"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple"
[url=http://www.frbaptist.org/bin/view/Ptp/PtpTopic20090916205418]Pastor Larry DeBruyn
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