MUST READ: Reviving What? by Merle Weaver

[b]Reviving What? [/b]
[i]by Merle Weaver[/i]

Recently I have been reflecting on some of the calls to prayer for revival and organizations for the same, that I have come in contact with. I feel it is important to share what has been on my heart, and what, I believe the Lord would have me share concerning these things. Before I present the subject at hand, I wish to provide an introductory statement, a sort of disclaimer, if you will. I realize that what I share may be controversial to some and seem as a point of contention. I only ask you to carefully consider what is presented and seek the Lord for yourself. I also am not intimating that none of the persons involved in promoting the views and organizations I am about to address are not christian or some of God's dear children, only to expose the false thought process(es), and so that we might know what it is we are agreeing in prayer for, when we pray for revival.

At the revival conference in Barnsdall, Oklahoma in June of 20091, Greg Frizzel shared that many persons are praying for revival because they are concerned about our economy etc. rather than because of a true burden from the Lord. I certainly agree with this and would add that many are concerned about “our country” (the nation of America) rather than having their first and primary allegiance to the Kingdom and person of our Lord Jesus Christ.2 The focus of many of these persons' well meaning prayers for revival, is that we might return to be the Christian Nation we once were. This focus is what I would like to address in this article. Last night as I was praying, it suddenly occurred to me that the only right focus, is the Glory of God and of the increase of His kingdom. In what is commonly called the Lord's prayer, Jesus even asked us to pray for this. Any other focus, or primary motivation, is actually selfish in nature. I have even seen churches pray for revival in this way – that God would empower “their program”.

Often one of the foundational beliefs of the above mentioned prayer for revival is that America is a Christian Nation. It is true that, “righteousness exalts a nation but sin is a reproach to any people.”3 Mike Atnip, in his book “How The Circuit Riders Saved America”4, clearly describes an example of how godliness has a sanctifying effect on a nation. And while there were many biblical principles and concepts followed in the foundation of America, for which we are thankful, it is not a christian nation, but a kingdom of this world. The foundation of Masonic influence5 and tools of the flesh and rebellion, which God no doubt, allowed and even used, still do not make this nation christian in either foundation or purpose. In addition to its foundation, it is not presently directed by the Lordship of Jesus Christ, for the increase of His Kingdom and purposes, though He can direct and use,6 but is directed by the wisdom and philosophies of men to serve their interests, in much the same way as many churches and denominations are run today as well.7

A second belief that often follows the foundational belief that America is a Christian nation, is that in revival we can/will influence the policies and methods of the government to be more in line with Biblical principles. While there is an element of truth in this, as in the early church, the book I mentioned above, and many other movements of God throughout history, this is a by-product not a focus. Our focus must be His Kingdom, and certainly we cannot divide our loyalties.8 Paul, arguably, lived under one of the worst governments/emperors of history, namely Nero. Yet, we do not even find mention of his name, or one complaint about the godlessness of the nation. I believe Paul expected the world to be that way. His chief aim, interest, and focus was the Church, the body of Christ and any concern for the world or changing the lost was not through government reform, but through seeing them transformed and becoming part of this “other-worldly” kingdom. On the contrast, the Jewish leaders were quite concerned about their place and nation,9 and because of this they rejected the Christ, ultimately becoming the very instruments of His crucifixion. Once again, we see God using this all for good, but they certainly did not get the blessing, and ultimately were fighting against God.

Brothers and sisters let us turn from seeking God for what we will get out if it, or how it will bless us. Let us lament the condition of the church, our lack or fire, salt, and godliness, and the millions of lost people in the “church”. Let us expect to suffer and die in this cause. Let us seek one thing only, His Glory, and His purpose. If he uses another nation or people to bring Himself glory we will rejoice, yet we will not let Him go till He bless us and our land, not because we deserve it or to improve our life, but because it is unfulfilled opportunity for His Glory and kingdom. Equally, when He visits us and uses us, we cannot/will not stop seeking Him for revival as long as there is one people, or one nation who has not brought Him the glory He deserves and for which they were created. This is the only legitimate primary motivation for revival, missions, or any Christian service.10

i Www.revivalconference.com
ii Hebrews 11:14-16, John 18:36-37
iii Proverbs 14:34
iv http://www.elcristianismoprimitivo.com/howmethodistssaved.htm
v http://www.midnightcall.com/articles/messages/masonic_history.html
vi Proverbs 21:1
vii “The Waning Authority Of Christ In The Churches” - A.W. Tozer
viiiMatthew 6:24
ix John 11:48
x “Ten Shekels And A Shirt” - Paris Reidhead

Amen and Amen !

Hey Jimmy, I am pleasantly surprised by your reply :) Are you going to Indianopolis?........Frank

Rich in faith brother, your rich in faith. God bless you. Brother Brian is coming with me to Greenock and then we are of to Wales. Did you meet Pastor Brian when you were at Barnsdall? It was his church we had the conference in......Frank

Quote: "Paul, arguably, lived under one of the worst governments/emperors of history, namely Nero. Yet, we do not even find mention of his name, or one complaint about the godlessness of the nation. I believe Paul expected the world to be that way. His chief aim, interest, and focus was the Church, the body of Christ and any concern for the world or changing the lost was not through government reform, but through seeing them transformed and becoming part of this “other-worldly” kingdom."

Hear-hear! Good for you Brother Weaver & SI.

I see more daily that we're definitely in the minority within "christianity" or any religious mix and even with secular conservatives on these points.
Have experienced it very heavily first hand.
God seems to be raising up His little flock - 'the people of The Book' - those willing to take the ribbing for being such as well.

Thank you for this post. Now I can throw my hat into that type of revival - amen.

Its the remnant people of God Jesus is God. The hat is welcome :)........Frank

Hi Chris, Scottish policeman have no guns :-) ........Frank

Well Chris, Scottish men are very handsome and are known to respond well to civility :-)

Quote OP: "Often one of the foundational beliefs of the above mentioned prayer for revival is that America is a Christian Nation. It is true that, “righteousness exalts a nation but sin is a reproach to any people.”3 Mike Atnip, in his book “How The Circuit Riders Saved America”4, clearly describes an example of how godliness has a sanctifying effect on a nation. And while there were many biblical principles and concepts followed in the foundation of America, for which we are thankful, it is not a christian nation, but a kingdom of this world. The foundation of Masonic influence5 and tools of the flesh and rebellion, which God no doubt, allowed and even used, still do not make this nation christian in either foundation or purpose. In addition to its foundation, it is not presently directed by the Lordship of Jesus Christ, for the increase of His Kingdom and purposes, though He can direct and use,6 but is directed by the wisdom and philosophies of men to serve their interests, in much the same way as many churches and denominations are run today as well."

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ChrisJD wrote:

And while there were many biblical principles and concepts followed in the foundation of America, for which we are thankful, it is not a christian nation, but a kingdom of this world. The foundation of Masonic influence5 and tools of the flesh and rebellion, which God no doubt, allowed and even used, still do not make this nation christian in either foundation or purpose.

[i]The foundation of Masonic influence5...[/i]

There is a giant statue of the Quaker, and disciple of George Fox, that is, William Penn, that sits atop city Hall in Philadelphia.

His prayer, or one that is attributed to him, for the city that he founded, is on a plaque in two places on the grounds of city hall.

In the book [i]Christianity and the American Commonwealth[/i] there is a lengthy qoutation which purports to be from the "chapter of laws adopted by the Quaker colony of Pennsylvania".

Following is a portion of that qoutation:

"Whereas the glory of Almighty God, and ye good of mankind, is the reason and end of government, and therefore government in itself is a venerable ordinance of God; and forasmuch as it is principally desired and intended by the proprietary and governor, and the freedom of the province of Pennsylvania, and territories thereunto belonging, to make and establish such laws as shall best preserve true Christians and civil liberty, in opposition to any unchristian, licentious, and unjust practises, whereby God may have his due, Caesar his due, and the people their due, and insolency and licentiousness on the other, so that the best and firmest foundation may be laid for the present and future happiness both of the governor and people of this province..."

- [i]from Christianity and the American Commonwealth, pgs 90-91[/i]

Not too long ago I remember a huge banner(or something like that) that was draped down the side of the Masonic Temple on Arch street that is across from city hall. It made a statement, or something similar to it, that at the foundation of America is FreeMasonry.

I'm by no means a historian or even qualified to say, except I suppose the truth of that, and the extent of it, may depend on where you look and whose telling the history.

_________________________________________________

bdcutler wrote:
ChrisJD wrote:

I'm by no means a historian or even qualified to say, except I suppose the truth of that, and the extent of it, may depend on where you look and whose telling the history.

I'm no means a student of history either, but I have read some of the letters written by several of the foundational fathers (these can be found at the Library of Congress website where they have scanned them in and made them available to the public: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/index.html). What I have found is that the foundational fathers were a diverse group, like any secular group of men. Some of them (I believe) were true Christians, some Deists, some Masons, some Unitarians. Some claimed to be “true” Christians, but in their writings it is clear they rejected the deity of Christ and his miracles (including the virgin birth, the resurrection, etc).

So, to claim that the foundational fathers were all Christian men who had strong faith is just not true. (This is the idea you get listening to some of these “Our Nation is a Christian Nation” people/historians). Yes, some where true believers and had faith, but many only went to church because it was the proper thing to do at the time (a proper gentleman went to church if he wanted any hope of being involved in politics), and this was evident in their writings (either directly by the words they say, or indirectly by their associations, i.e. with the masons for example).

I agree with Greg, yes, God used these men and God even used their rebellion against England (even if it was an unchristian thing to do), just like God has used men throughout history regardless of whether they were Jew or Gentile, believer or unbeliever, soft of heart or hard of heart. But our loyalty must remain with our true King and Lord, Jesus Christ, and His Kingdom, which will never end. The time is soon coming when Christ will return and dispose of all these earthly kingdoms, and all that will remain is Christ’s Kingdom. Let us build then, on the foundation of Jesus Christ, a work that will remain, not of wood, hay, and stubble, but of gold, silver, and precious stones, that will withstand the test of fire.

I believe this is the beginning of an "Awakening" and felt it bore repeating.

The whole of Brother Weaver's Article is worth the bump for those who call themselves by His Name.

With Awakening comes persecution - but I think we're ready even for that now.

GOD Bless you all!!

Amen ChrisJD,

To make the stance that brother Merle makes in this article is to expose one's self to suffer reproach and ridicule and even hatred........Frank

Revival is not an event, nor a mere meeting, but the transformation of the character of the holy church of Jesus. This is always embodied within a geographical people of the local church in a province or city. It is never organized, and seldom led; though there may be instigating and anointed men, like Phillip at Samaria, Paul at Ephesus, Wesley, Whitefield, Finney, Roberts or Seymour.

The validation of revival is it's purity, and it's effect depends entirely upon it's longevity. I agree with Merle's concept of motive. Does our prayer, and it's outcome aggrandize the kingdom of Heaven, or our well being, on any level?. Things are always more blessed in times of revival, with God manifested ; or so we think. Hebrews 11 was written about a revival people, who carried it. are we prepared for this?

Are we willing to lay down our crowns, and become just a brother to serve the least of the Brothers? Are we willing to Go, to spread the spirit of life to the lost, without fanfare or the recognition of any man? Are we willing to fade into oblivion unheralded, carrying revival, as so many of the company of Paul did, the circuit riders of Wesley, and the thousands of missionaries of Azusa?

Do we long for revival , as we do in our secret life, as we do when praying upon the microphone in public meeting, and are seen as a great leader, a man after God's own heart? Are we prepared to do the work of revival, in the commonplace , small fellowships, where the least of the brethren may need you, and God may call you? There is death in this word, a cost, for as the apostle said; "Death works in me, but life in you!" There is no real ministry without this occurring.

In one sense, it is a noble undertaking to pray for revival, and I believe a command, if we desire the fullness of Christ; but when the Lord answers , are we willing to become a nobody?; a slave unto the weak, a brother?...or must we lead?

I think that when revival does come, the clergy class will assume that they are qualified to lead it, and thereby control it, which in the end, always kills what revival does come. This will be our greatest enemy, as it was with the early church. Acts 20: "men among yourselves shall rise up to draw disciples after themselves"; the revival at Ephesus.

It is indeed a very hard word when revival proves to be about the glory that Jesus is alone, and that he may be unconcerned about our personal agenda's or ministries. Revival will not exist in an organism that does not value the least of the brethren as equals, in spirit and in truth. 1 cor: 11 speaks of sickness, weakness, and even death to those who refuse to discern the body in this way; and so it is with revival.

Much of our modern church is modeled after a clergy laity system, which is prone to honor a priest class, as the carriers of his glory, which is just not true. We need shepherds with a heart unto the least of the brethren, to bring along the young, or revivals will fail, if even they are granted, and this is very meek work accomplished only by love and humility.

Let us pray for revival, and also that when it comes, that we would be found worthy to stewart it, with His approval.

Are we willing to lay down our crowns, and become just a brother to serve the least of the Brothers? Are we willing to Go, to spread the spirit of life to the lost, without fanfare or the recognition of any man? Are we willing to fade into oblivion unheralded, carrying revival, as so many of the company of Paul did, the circuit riders of Wesley, and the thousands of missionaries of Azusa?

Peter thought he could, but when he faced it, he ended up denying the LORD. Not everyone can be a Peter, Paul and Mary.

But first we need to awake out of our slumber, in our condition we can't even think straight, let alone be willing to die for the LORD. :-o

Brothertom said:

"Are we willing to lay down our crowns, and become just a brother to serve the least of the Brothers? Are we willing to Go, to spread the spirit of life to the lost, without fanfare or the recognition of any man? Are we willing to fade into oblivion unheralded, carrying revival, as so many of the company of Paul did, the circuit riders of Wesley, and the thousands of missionaries of Azusa?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deepthinker responded

"No we are not willing because we haven't been placed in that position to choose.

Peter thought he could, but when he faced it, he ended up denying the LORD. Not everyone can be a Peter, Paul and Mary.

But first we need to awake out of our slumber, in our condition we can't even think straight, let alone be willing to die for the LORD."
...............................................

Of course we're not put in that position yet; that indeed is the nature of this thread; "Revival into what?"

Surely one of revival's results is to wake us up out of our slumber. I never mentioned being willing to die for the lord, but to be willing to steward revival no matter the cost, which is necessary , in my opinion, to carry an unquenched revival Home.

HI Chris,

Would you suggest that there is a way of taking a stance without causing division? Isn't that what the truth does? Does it not divide truth from error? Is that not the reason why Jesus was hated by the religious folk?

Luk 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on Me; because of this He has anointed Me to proclaim the Gospel to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim deliverance to the captives, and new sight to the blind, to set at liberty those having been crushed,
Luk 4:19 to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
Luk 4:20 And rolling up the book, returning it to the attendant, He sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on Him.
Luk 4:21 And He began to say to them, Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your ears.
Luk 4:22 And all bore witness to Him and wondered at the gracious words which came out of His mouth.

Oh boy Chris, if he would have just stopped there there would have been no division, no heresy, at least according to the Pharisee. But, of course, He did not stop there, He had not come for the congratulations of men, He was a liberator come to set men free. And before this chapter is over they will try and kill Him because He talked about the inclusion of the gentile. If you read chapter 8 of John you will also see a similar situation. He is talking to "believers," this time and if He had just not told them that they could be free everything would have went pretty well for Him. Yet, look at what the "believers," tried to do before the chapter is over. What about John 6, same story. They loved some of what Jesus was doing and had gathered in great numbers, but when they heard the full counsel of God they departed from Him. Brother Merle has spoken the truth and while many may disagree with him and that word may cause division, what has that to do with anything Chris? Should we say that it is not the truh for fear of offending those who disagree? Follow that logic and where would that lead you?

"God forbid that we set others agaist each other because we have forced a choice upon them."

Its the truth we are after here brother, not choices set before people with a luxury to choose. And of course, there is no forced choice here. One is free to make up their own minds, but that very freedom does not mean that we do not identify and highlight the truth. All through history Christians have made choices and took bold stands and all through history they have been killed for those very stances and choices and always by the majority. Yet it was God that said that narrow is the path that leads to life. Let each of us pray that we find ourselves upon the narrow path of life brother..........Frank

Hi Chris,

Its not about judges and its not about heresy and its not about forcing, as you suggested, people to make a choice. The inference in your reply tells a tale brother. If I am to be kind I would agree with you brother and say, let God be the judge. It is Him we stand before after all and give an account to. The point of the forum is to share. Brother Merle shared, actually brother Greg shared it, I am not sure what you would have him to do, I am not getting your point. Are you saying, and please, speak plainly :-) that he is like Absalom. I guess I am just not getting where you are coming from in regard to this particula post........Frank

Hi Chris,

Would't one always consider that as one puts forward a truth that the Lord has put on his heart? Pastors do every week brother and some people oppose what they see as error just as long and just as hard which is their right to do. In relation to this post, I am assuming that is what we are talking about, what would you have the poster to do? Do you not already suppose that he has checked his heart, and prayed long and hard. Now, lets just for assumption sake say that he is correct. The Lord has revealed this to him and the Lord wants it shared. When the message is opposed, should he then back away because turmoil is caused by it? My gosh, where would that leave the Gospel messge Chris. Christianity is not for the faint-hearted. Men of God have always been fiercly opposed. Whitlfield was banned from every Anglican church in the known world. Troblemaker? Absolom? Jonothan Edwards, kicked out of his church and eneded up preaching to Indians. Wesley? Punched and had stones thrown at him. The list is endless Chris. Detractors go with the territory when the Lord uses a man, and the detractor would have to ask himself the exact same question that you posed, would he not? Sampson or Absolom :) Love you brother......Frank

Hi Chris,I have decided to PM you as this seems to have little or anything to do with this thread. By the way, I do not call people names or get personal, I just dont do it, ever. Do I believe in God's remnent people for today, yes, with my whole heart. Its what a large part of my personal website is dedicated to. God bless you my friend in whatever ministry the Lord has called you too...........Frank

Here is the original post by Merle Weaver, seemed to have got somewhat distracted from it.........

Recently I have been reflecting on some of the calls to prayer for revival and organizations for the same, that I have come in contact with. I feel it is important to share what has been on my heart, and what, I believe the Lord would have me share concerning these things. Before I present the subject at hand, I wish to provide an introductory statement, a sort of disclaimer, if you will. I realize that what I share may be controversial to some and seem as a point of contention. I only ask you to carefully consider what is presented and seek the Lord for yourself. I also am not intimating that none of the persons involved in promoting the views and organizations I am about to address are not christian or some of God's dear children, only to expose the false thought process(es), and so that we might know what it is we are agreeing in prayer for, when we pray for revival.

At the revival conference in Barnsdall, Oklahoma in June of 20091, Greg Frizzel shared that many persons are praying for revival because they are concerned about our economy etc. rather than because of a true burden from the Lord. I certainly agree with this and would add that many are concerned about “our country” (the nation of America) rather than having their first and primary allegiance to the Kingdom and person of our Lord Jesus Christ.2 The focus of many of these persons' well meaning prayers for revival, is that we might return to be the Christian Nation we once were. This focus is what I would like to address in this article. Last night as I was praying, it suddenly occurred to me that the only right focus, is the Glory of God and of the increase of His kingdom. In what is commonly called the Lord's prayer, Jesus even asked us to pray for this. Any other focus, or primary motivation, is actually selfish in nature. I have even seen churches pray for revival in this way – that God would empower “their program”.

Often one of the foundational beliefs of the above mentioned prayer for revival is that America is a Christian Nation. It is true that, “righteousness exalts a nation but sin is a reproach to any people.”3 Mike Atnip, in his book “How The Circuit Riders Saved America”4, clearly describes an example of how godliness has a sanctifying effect on a nation. And while there were many biblical principles and concepts followed in the foundation of America, for which we are thankful, it is not a christian nation, but a kingdom of this world. The foundation of Masonic influence5 and tools of the flesh and rebellion, which God no doubt, allowed and even used, still do not make this nation christian in either foundation or purpose. In addition to its foundation, it is not presently directed by the Lordship of Jesus Christ, for the increase of His Kingdom and purposes, though He can direct and use,6 but is directed by the wisdom and philosophies of men to serve their interests, in much the same way as many churches and denominations are run today as well.7

A second belief that often follows the foundational belief that America is a Christian nation, is that in revival we can/will influence the policies and methods of the government to be more in line with Biblical principles. While there is an element of truth in this, as in the early church, the book I mentioned above, and many other movements of God throughout history, this is a by-product not a focus. Our focus must be His Kingdom, and certainly we cannot divide our loyalties.8 Paul, arguably, lived under one of the worst governments/emperors of history, namely Nero. Yet, we do not even find mention of his name, or one complaint about the godlessness of the nation. I believe Paul expected the world to be that way. His chief aim, interest, and focus was the Church, the body of Christ and any concern for the world or changing the lost was not through government reform, but through seeing them transformed and becoming part of this “other-worldly” kingdom. On the contrast, the Jewish leaders were quite concerned about their place and nation,9 and because of this they rejected the Christ, ultimately becoming the very instruments of His crucifixion. Once again, we see God using this all for good, but they certainly did not get the blessing, and ultimately were fighting against God.

Brothers and sisters let us turn from seeking God for what we will get out if it, or how it will bless us. Let us lament the condition of the church, our lack or fire, salt, and godliness, and the millions of lost people in the “church”. Let us expect to suffer and die in this cause. Let us seek one thing only, His Glory, and His purpose. If he uses another nation or people to bring Himself glory we will rejoice, yet we will not let Him go till He bless us and our land, not because we deserve it or to improve our life, but because it is unfulfilled opportunity for His Glory and kingdom. Equally, when He visits us and uses us, we cannot/will not stop seeking Him for revival as long as there is one people, or one nation who has not brought Him the glory He deserves and for which they were created. This is the only legitimate primary motivation for revival, missions, or any Christian service.10

i www.revivalconference.com
ii Hebrews 11:14-16, John 18:36-37
iii Proverbs 14:34
iv http://www.elcristianismoprimitivo.com/howmethodistssaved.htm
v http://www.midnightcall.com/articles/messages/masonic_history.html
vi Proverbs 21:1
vii “The Waning Authority Of Christ In The Churches” - A.W. Tozer
viiiMatthew 6:24
ix John 11:48
x “Ten Shekels And A Shirt” - Paris Reidhead

Hi,

Here is the link for the original post.......

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=30764&forum=40

It was originally described as a must read, I agree...........Frank

HI my dear sister Joan,

The love of the Lord is so sweet and pure. My heart weeps too. I love you as a brother in Christ and I look forward so much to the gathering of the saints tomorrow night, especially with my precious brother Merle who has a heart that hungers after our Saviour Jesus. We shall behold the Lamb of God that was slain, together and marvel that the deemed to come to earth to take away the sins of the world and all to the glory of God, our Heavenly Father...........brother Frank