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Imputed Righteousness "of Christ"??

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sermonindex

Christ's righteousness is imputed to us

King David and the Apostle Paul described in detail what imputed righteousness is. Their description is the clearest presentation of imputed righteousness in the Scripture. According to these inspired writings, imputed righteousness consists in being considered righteous, having your transgressions forgiven, having your sins covered, and as not having your iniquities imputed or accounted against you (Ps. 31:1-2; Rom. 4:7-8). In other words, to be imputed righteous is when God pardons our crimes, not giving us the governmental treatment that we deserve, but rather treating us as if we were righteous, that is, giving us the treatment of law abiding citizens. God considers us righteous by treating us as righteous.

The New Testament word “logizomai” is translated as “think” (2 Cor. 3:5; 10:2; 10:7; 10:11; 12:6; Phi. 4:8), as “imputed” (Rom. 4:11; 4:22-24; Jam. 2:23), as “counted” (Rom. 2:26; 4:3; 4:5; 9:8), as “reckoned” (Lk. 22:37; Rom. 4:4; 4:9-10), as “accounted” (Rom. 8:36; Gal. 3:6), as “reckon” (Rom. 6:11; 8:18), as “suppose” (2 Cor. 11:5; 1 Pet. 5:12), as “account” (1 Cor. 4:1), as “accounting” (Heb. 11:19), as “conclude” (Rom. 3:28), as “count” (Phi. 3:13), as “esteemeth” (Rom. 14:14), as “impute” (Rom. 4:8), as “imputeth” (Rom. 4:6), as “imputing” (2 Cor. 5:19), as “laid” (2 Tim. 4:16), as “numbered” (Mk. 15:28), as “reasoned” (Mk. 11:31), as “thinkest” (Rom. 2:3), as “thinketh” (1 Cor. 13:5), and as “thought” (1 Cor. 13:11). When an individual is imputed righteous, it simply means that their sins are forgiven and they are thought of as righteous, esteemed as righteous, counted as righteous, reckoned as righteous, or considered as righteous. When a person is imputed as righteous they are treated as if they were righteous, treated as if they were never unrighteous, being treated as law abiding citizens.

The Old Testament equivalent word is “chashab” and it is translated as “counted” (Gen. 15:5-6; 31:15; Lev. 25:31; Num. 18:30; Jos. 13:3; Neh. 13:13; Job 18:3; 41:29; Ps. 44:22; 88:4; 106:31; Prov. 17:28; 27:14; Isa. 5:28; 40:15; 20:17; Hos. 8:12), as “thought” (Gen. 38:15; 50:20; 1Sam. 1:13; 18:25; 2 Sam. 14:13; Neh. 6:2; Ps. 73:16; 119:59; Jer. 18:8; Mal. 3:16), as “think” (Neh. 6:6; Job 41:32; Isa. 10:7; Jer. 23:27; 29:11; Eze. 38:10), as “accounted” (Deut. 2:10-11; 2:20; 1 Kin. 10:21; 2 Chro. 9:20; Isa. 2:22), as “imagine” (Job 6:26; Ps. 140:2; Hos. 7:15; Zec. 7:9-10), as “esteemed” (Isa. 29:16-17; Isa. 53:3; Lam. 4:2), as “reckoned” (Num. 18:27; 23:9; 2 Sam. 4:2; 2 Kin. 12:15), as “count” (Lev. 25:27; 25:52; Job 19:15), as “reckon” (Lev. 25:50; 27:18; 27:23), as “counteth” (Job 19:11; 33:10), as “imagined” (Ps. 10:2; Ps. 21:11), as “imputed” (Lev. 7:18; 17:4), as “account” (Ps. 144:3), as “considered” (Ps. 77:5), as “esteem” (Isa. 53:4), as “esteemeth” (Job 41:27), as “imagineth” (Nah. 1:11), as “impute” (2 Sam. 19:19), as “imputeth” (Ps. 32:2), as “reckoning” (2 Kin. 22:7), as “regard” (Isa. 13:17), as “regardeth” (Isa. 33:8), as “thinkest” (Job 35:2), and as “thinketh” (Psa. 40:17). To be imputed righteous is to be counted as righteous, to be thought of as righteous, to be esteemed as righteous, to be reckoned as righteous, to be considered as righteous, to be regarded as righteous, etc.

The word “imputed” does not mean transferred. It is a theological error to say that “the righteousness of Christ is transferred to our account”. If imputed means transferred, when God imputed an uncircumcised individual as circumcised (Rom. 2:26), it means that someone else’s circumcision is transferred to them! The obvious meaning is that they are simply considered circumcised, reckoned as circumcised, or thought of as circumcised, but not that someone else loses their circumcision so that it could be transferred to another. Some have represented the doctrine of the imputed righteousness “of Christ” as the Gospel itself. But if this is the Gospel, neither Jesus nor the Apostles ever preached it! The Scriptures abundantly talk about imputed righteousness, but it never talks about the imputed righteousness “of Christ”. Rather, the truth is that we have imputed righteousness through Christ!

Some have supposed that when God looks upon a Christian who is sinning that God doesn’t see the Christian sinning but “see’s the righteousness of Christ” instead. But God clearly saw the bad works of the Christians in Revelations (Rev 2:2, 2:9; 2:13; 2:19; 3:1; 3:8; 3:15), not “the righteousness of Christ”. Imputed righteousness is not some scheme that fools or blinds God so that He no longer knows reality as it is, or no longer see’s individuals as they are. That would mean God is no longer omniscient. Whenever anyone is in sin, our omniscient God sees it clearly and perfectly (Prov. 15:3; Eze. 8:12; 9:9; Jer. 32:19; Mal. 2:17; Heb. 4:13).

Imputed righteousness is a gift of God (Rom. 5:17), it comes from God (Isa. 54:17; 2 Cor. 5:21) by His grace and mercy, not earned or deserved by anything that we have done. It is “the righteousness of God” as opposed to the righteousness of man, since it comes from God and not from man. It is a gift from God, through Christ, to man. Christ is our righteousness (Jer. 23:6; 1 Cor. 1:30) because it is only through Him, what He did for us on the cross, that God is able to treat us as if we were righteous, treating us as if we were never unrighteous. Imputed righteousness is not the transfer of Christ’s righteousness, neither is it a scheme that blinds God the Father so that He does not see our true condition, but it is rather the same thing as forgiveness and justification, it is when God set’s aside the punishment that we deserve for our unrighteousness and treats us as if we had always been righteous, when God reckons or considers us as righteous, because Christ shed His blood for our sins.

"It is nowhere stated in Scripture that Christ's personal righteousness is imputed to us. Not a text can be found which contains any enunciation of the doctrine." [b]John Welsey[/b] (A Right Conception of Sin by Richard Taylor)

“This is, if I understand it, the true doctrine of ‘imputation;’ not that there is any transfer of moral character from us to the Redeemer, or from him to us, and not that God literally ‘reckons’ or imputes our sins to him as his, or his righteousness to us as ours, but that his work may be estimated as performed in the place and on the account of sinful men, and that in virtue of that we may be regarded and treated as if it had been performed by ourselves.” [b]Albert Barnes[/b] (The Atonement, Published by Bethany House, p. 315)

“God imputeth righteousness. Whom God treats as righteous... forgiven, and whose sins are not charged on him, but who is freed from the punishment due to his sins. Being thus pardoned, he is treated as a righteous man. And it is evidently in this sense that the apostle uses the expression ‘imputed righteousness’ i.e. he does not imputed, or charge on the man his sins; he reckons and treats him as a pardoned and righteous man.” [b]Albert Barnes[/b] (Commentary on the Romans, p. 105)

“This passage [Rom. 4:5-8] deserves special attention, as it explains all those text that seem to favor, and have been construed to support the theory of the imputation of Christ’s active and passive righteousness to the sinner. Here it is manifest that justification, imputation of righteousness, forgiving iniquities, covering sins, and the non-imputation of sin, are phrases substantially of the same import, and decide positively that the Scripture view of the great doctrine under consideration, is an actual deliverance from the guilt and penalty of sin: from which it follows, that the phrases so often occurring in the writings of Paul – the righteousness of God and of Christ – must mean God’s righteous method of justifying the ungodly, through the atonement and by the instrumentality of faith – a method that upholds the rectitude of the Divine character, at the same time that it offers a full and free pardon to the sinner.” [b]Asbury Lowrey[/b], (Positive Theology, Published by R. P. Thompson, 1854, pg. 211-212)

“In theology, the remission of sin, and absolution from guilt and punishment; or an act of free grace by which God pardons the sinner, and accepts him as righteous, on account of the atonement of Christ.” [b]Noah Webster’s 1828 Dictionary[/b]

“Holiness isn’t something you can borrow – you either have it or you don’t. The theological doctrine of ‘imputed righteousness’ has been grossly distorted in our day. We are told that God looks at us through the blood of Christ and see’s us as righteous, regardless of our actual state… Let’s stop kidding ourselves. God sees us exactly the way we are. If we are living in obedience, He sees it. If we are living selfish, unholy lives, we can be sure he sees that too.” [b]George Otis Jr.[/b] (The God They Never Knew, Published by Mott Media, p. 40)

“As one ‘made under the law’ (Ga. 4:4-5), Christ was obliged to obey and keep the law. Since He had to obey for Himself, He could not obey for others in the sense that His obedience could be literally imputed to them… while Christ could not obey for us, He could die entirely in our behalf since there was not the least guilt charged against Him for which He must die.” [b]Gordon Olson[/b] (The Kindness of God Our Savior, Published by Revival Theology Promotions, p. 91)

“Forgiveness of sin, such that the penalty is not carried out, is sufficient to qualify as a definition of ‘imputed righteousness’… How could the Holy Spirit convict us of sin if he did not know we were sinning? How could we grieve the Spirit of God if he never saw us as anything other than righteous? God has a very good sense of reality, he knows when we sin, and he sees us exactly as we are.” [b]Michael Saia[/b] (Understanding the Cross, Published by Xulon, p. 132).

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roaringlamb

So let's get back to the text you seem to be avoiding-

"He made Him sin who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him" 2 Corinthians 5:21

Sin was imputed to Christ without Him being sinful, AND we are made righteous without really being righteous.

And if you want, I can copy/paste a bunch of others who come from a non-Pelagian Governmental view, but that doesn't change what is being said in that passage.

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He who knew no sin (never made a sinful choice) became sin for us (was made a sin offering) that we might be made the righteousness of God (that we might receive the forgiveness that comes from God).

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Excellent study Brother. Thank you for your work you put into it.

1Pe 1:15-16

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roaringlamb

the righteousness of God

You should look at how Paul means that phrase in his Epistles before jumping to that conclusion.

Especially Romans 1:17, 3:21-22

or how Paul says that God counts us righteous by faith apart from works Romans 4:6

It is more than forgiveness.

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post repeat

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According to Paul imputed righteousness = forgiveness: Ps. 31:1-2; Rom. 4:7-8

The righteousness that comes from God is unmerited forgiveness. God forgives sinners by His grace and mercy when they repent of their sins and trust in Christ.

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twayneb

Some have supposed that when God looks upon a Christian who is sinning that God doesn’t see the Christian sinning but “see’s the righteousness of Christ” instead. But God clearly saw the bad works of the Christians in Revelations (Rev 2:2, 2:9; 2:13; 2:19; 3:1; 3:8; 3:15), not “the righteousness of Christ”. Imputed righteousness is not some scheme that fools or blinds God so that He no longer knows reality as it is, or no longer see’s individuals as they are. That would mean God is no longer omniscient. Whenever anyone is in sin, our omniscient God sees it clearly and perfectly (Prov. 15:3; Eze. 8:12; 9:9; Jer. 32:19; Mal. 2:17; Heb. 4:13).

So this brings up a question in my mind. If imputed righteousness is synonymous with forgiveness of past sins, what happens if I sin after righteousness is imputed unto me? I am not saying God does not see nor recognize that we have sinned. His knowledge is not my problem, it is His reaction that is the issue. Do I have to be forgiven for each individual sin after it is committed to be considered righteous?

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roaringlamb

So then what is justification?

Here is a brief excerpt from an article that is very good about this. The whole article is here
[url=http://bibletools.org//index.cfm/fuseaction/Def.show/RTD/ISBE/ID/4575/Imputation.htm]Imputation[/url]

3. Imputation of the Righteousness of Christ to His People:

The righteousness upon the ground of which God justifies the ungodly is, according to Paul, witnessed to in the Old Testament (Romans 3:21). In order to obtain the blessedness which comes from a right relation to God, the pardon or non-imputation of sin is necessary, and this takes place through the "covering" of sin (Psalms 32:1-2). The nature of this covering by the vicarious bearing of the penalty of sin is made clear in Isa. 53. It is, moreover, the teaching of the Old Testament that the righteousness which God demands is not to be found among men (Psalms 130:3; Psalms 143:2; Isaiah 64:6). Accordingly, the prophets speak of a righteousness which is not from man's works, but which is said to be in Yahweh or to come from Him to His people (Isaiah 32:16 f.; Isaiah 45:23 ff.; Isaiah 54:17; Isaiah 58:8; Isaiah 61:3; Jeremiah 51:10; Hosea 10:12). This idea finds its clearest expression in connection with the work of the Messiah in Jeremiah 33:16, where Jerusalem is called "Yahweh our righteousness" because of the coming of the Messianic king, and in Jeremiah 23:6 where the same name is given to the Messiah to express His significance for Israel. Although the idea of the imputation of righteousness is not explicitly asserted in these passages, the idea is not merely that the righteousness spoken of is recognized by Yahweh (Cremer), but that it comes from Him, so that Yahweh, through the work of the Messiah, is the source of His people's righteousness.

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sermonindex

Roaringlamb - this is where we need the Greek.

A. T. Robertson's - 2Co 5:21
"That we might 'become' G1096 (hina hēmeis genōmetha). Note “become.” This is God’s purpose (hina) in what he did and in what Christ did. Thus alone can we obtain God’s righteousness (Rom 1:17)."


"Made" in the KJV is translated from Strong's and the grammar as "become", because it is a Present Subjunctive tense - which refers to "continusous or repeated action, regardless of when the action took place."

"Faith to faith" - "When I return, will I find "faith" upon the earth?"

Present Active Participles as well are "continuous action" on our part and is where the KJV puts the "eth" at the end of a word - such as in John 3:16 "believeth" = continuous action.

James 2:14-26 & Heb 11 shows the continuous action or verb sense of what "faith" is.

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Hebrews 13
Concluding Exhortations
1Keep on loving each other as brothers. 2Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it. 3Remember those in prison as if you were their fellow prisoners, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering.
4Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral. 5Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
"Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you."[a] 6So we say with confidence,
"The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid.
What can man do to me?"[b]

7Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. 8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

9Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by ceremonial foods, which are of no value to those who eat them. 10We have an altar from which those who minister at the tabernacle have no right to eat.

11The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp.


12And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

13Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore. 14For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come.

15Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that confess his name. 16And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased. 17Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

18Pray for us. We are sure that we have a clear conscience and desire to live honorably in every way. 19I particularly urge you to pray so that I may be restored to you soon.

20May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

22Brothers, I urge you to bear with my word of exhortation, for I have written you only a short letter.

23I want you to know that our brother Timothy has been released. If he arrives soon, I will come with him to see you.

24Greet all your leaders and all God's people. Those from Italy send you their greetings.

25Grace be with you all

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roaringlamb

this is where we need the Greek.

Funny I used that exact thing on the other thread and got asked if I read the Bible in reality :-)

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sermonindex

twayneb wrote:

So this brings up a question in my mind. If imputed righteousness is synonymous with forgiveness of past sins, what happens if I sin after righteousness is imputed unto me? I am not saying God does not see nor recognize that we have sinned. His knowledge is not my problem, it is His reaction that is the issue. Do I have to be forgiven for each individual sin after it is committed to be considered righteous?

Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all [b]unrighteousness.[/b]


Continuous action again.

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If a believer sins, they must repent and ask the Lord for forgiveness. That is what King David did Ps. 51:-52.

So if a believer breaks the law of God (by committing adultery and murder like David did) they must repent or perish Luke 13:3

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roaringlamb

roaringlamb wrote:

I didn't write that :-D

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TaylorOtwell

I'm noticing that everytime that truefaithsav or Logic quote 2nd Corinthians 5:21 they have to insert words into the verse to make it fit their argument.

Guys, the verse does not say "made sin (sin offering)". That parenthetical clarification is not in my Bible, I don't know about y'alls...

Did anyone ever answer my question as to why Paul would use the exact same word for "sin" in 2 Corinthians 5:21 if they were to mean two completely different things?

If we supply "sin offering" consistently for the Greek word as apparently suggested, the verse would read "he who knew no sin-offering". That doesn't make any sense.

With care in Christ...

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roaringlamb

So if a believer breaks the law of God (by committing adultery and murder like David did) they must repent or perish Luke 13:3

That is not what the Luke 13 passage is saying at all. It is actually confronting a false idea that those who perish are somehow "worse sinners" or more deserving of death because they are "sinners".

A believer breaks the Law EVERY day, as NO ONE loves God above everything else and loves their neighbor as themselves.

So the ground of our acceptance must be the fact that God has hidden our life in Christ as Scripture says. We don't get put into Christ and then taken out again and again.

As believers, we will be chastened for our sin which furthers our sanctification. BUT we are never punished for our sin as Christ was punished for our sin, and that is the demonstration of God's love for us.

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roaringlamb wrote:
roaringlamb wrote:

I didn't write that :-D


VERY Sorry.

Just a tad Senile, I am.

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roaringlamb

VERY Sorry. Just a tad Senile, I am.

No worries, it gave me a good laugh, so thanks a bunch. As Scripture says, "laughter is good medicine"

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sermonindex

roaringlamb wrote:

No worries, it gave me a good laugh, so thanks a bunch. As Scripture says, "laughter is good medicine"


Amen! Thanks! :-)

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sermonindex


roaringlamb wrote:
So let's get back to the text you seem to be avoiding-

"He made Him sin who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him" 2 Corinthians 5:21

Sin was imputed to Christ without Him being sinful, AND we are made righteous without really being righteous.

And if you want, I can copy/paste a bunch of others who come from a non-Pelagian Governmental view, but that doesn't change what is being said in that passage.

truefaithsav,

You have heard it from roaringlamb, now take it from a baa-ing lion:

We are not saved by faith, but by having the correct definition of faith. The Lord imputes righteousness to us, not as a legal abstraction, but in the form of Correct Dogma. Theology saves. That is why these tedious, arid, barren theological polemics are necessary for your salvation. You will perish eternally if your definition of "imputed righteousness" is incorrect.

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1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

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Jesus-is-GOD wrote:

1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.



"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever holdeth correct opinions about him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

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It's Scripturally Impossible to seperate 'The Truth' from Him Who is Love. He is Both.

Back to topic - if we could ever get the personal and other nonsense out of these threads.

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Logic

roaringlamb wrote:
this is where we need the Greek.
Funny I used that exact thing on the other thread and got asked if I read the Bible in reality :-)
No, I asked if your ever interpret the Bible accourding to reality.
One must keep their interpretation in line with reality.
You shouldn't have a theology which doesn't make any sense.

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Miccah

LoinGirder wrote:



"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever holdeth correct opinions about him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16


Your spirit is not of God. Do you not fear the Lord?

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sermonindex

A believer breaks the Law EVERY day, as NO ONE loves God above everything else and loves their neighbor as themselves.

You are saying that everyone is an idolater? Everyone loves something more than God? That would mean that everyone is going to hell according to 1 Cor. 6:9-10. This passage was written to a Church of believers by the way.

The Bible doesn't say that we break the law of God every day. It says, "we keep his commandments" (1 John 3:22)

It says that the test of whether you know God or not is whether you keep His commandments or not (1 John 2:3-4).

Either you serve sin or you serve God. If you serve sin (sin every day) you are not born again and you are not saved. We are saved from servitude towards sin and have become servants of righteousness, we are servants of God.

Of course our obedience cannot save us. We are saved by grace and mercy. But our disobedience can damn us. Jesus is the offer of eternal salvation to all them that obey Him (Heb. 5:9).

Those who have been born again have new hearts. A new heart is an obedient heart. If a person sins, it is because they have a disobedient heart. And if they have a disobedient heart it is because they do not have a new heart. The "new man" is one who loves and obeys God. The "old man" is one who loves and obeys sin. You cannot be both an old man and a new man, you cannot serve two masters, you cannot obey sin and follow Jesus.


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ceedub

What about self-righteousness and spiritual pride, do they count as daily sins? How about poor doctrine? And what about lording so-called truths over others online in a fashion that I guarantee you wouldn't try in person?

Do these count as sins that those that are truly saved never do?

I'm just thinking about the Pharisees and how they held a high outward standard, spoke much of their righteousness, spoke often against others for not meeting their standard. How they would try and intimidate others and put burdens on them they themselves wouldn't carry. How they talked much of God and righteousness buy denied Christ's righteousness loving their own much more.

Do these sins count?

I mean, when I look at how Jesus dealt with the humble who hated their ways (proof of new cov't experience at the end of Ez 36) compared to how he dealt with the spiritually proud, I'm just wondering if these sins count.

Wait, I know the answer. You need not reply.

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roaringlamb

you are not born again and you are not saved

Ok, I'm not saved or born again because i am humble enough to admit that I sin.

Please tell me how to be saved, what is the Good News that I am to believe! oh wait your Good Advice is that Christ only loves those who are perfectly obedient, and IF I am perfectly obedient, then I can be saved.

If I have misrepresented your view let me know.

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twayneb

Re: \tReply Quote: twayneb wrote: So this brings up a question in my mind. If imputed righteousness is synonymous with forgiveness of past sins, what happens if I sin after righteousness is imputed unto me? I am not saying God does not see nor recognize that we have sinned. His knowledge is not my problem, it is His reaction that is the issue. Do I have to be forgiven for each individual sin after it is committed to be considered righteous? Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. 1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Continuous action again.

So again, if I fail to do the good I know to do, what then? My question comes from the realization that if imputed righteousness means only that my past sins are forgiven, but I must receive new forgiveness for every future sin, what if I forget one??? What part of me was made righteous? My body? My mind? My emotions? Or, is it my spirit that is perfected forever (Hebrews 10-:14). (By the way, I am not implying that a saved person cannot lose their salvation). I am only saying that imputed righteousness is way more powerful than just dealing with past sins. I don't lose my righteousness standing in God's eyes each time I miss the mark. If I did, I could never have any hope of salvation. What if I forgot to confess a sin???

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sermonindex

“The doctrine of a literal imputation of Christ's obedience or righteousness is supported by those who hold it, by such passages as the following: Rom. iv. 5-8.—"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputed righteousness without works, saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." But here [u]justification is represented only as consisting in forgiveness of sin, or in pardon and acceptance[/u]. Again, 2 Cor. v. 19, 21. "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." Here again the apostle is teaching only his much-loved doctrine of justification by faith, in the sense that upon condition or in consideration of the death and mediatorial interference and work of Christ, penitent believers in Christ are [u]forgiven and rewarded as if they were righteous[/u]." Charles Finney (Systematic Theology)

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sermonindex

The way to be saved is very simple: repent and believe. If we forsake our sins, in our heart, and turn to Christ and trust in Him, in our heart, then we are saved. Then we must persevere unto the end to be finally saved at last, or to stay saved rather. If our hearts forsake Christ for sin, we are not persevering, we are not saved, we must repent.

We do not need to remember every sin we have ever committed to be saved. We do not have to name every sin we have ever committed to be saved. We simply need to forsake all sin in our hearts. That is true repentance. If our heart holds on to any sin at all, if we refuse to give up any of our sins, then our heart is disobedient to God, we are not regenerate or born again.

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roaringlamb

We do not need to remember every sin we have ever committed to be saved. We do not have to name every sin we have ever committed to be saved

But wait, if I have unconfessed sin, I can't be saved, or at least that is what you have hinted at.

How can God overlook it and allow me to have fellowship with Him?

By the way justification is a legal declaration of being righteous because of Christ's righteousness, not mine. he intercedes for me before the Father. That is why Paul says that our life is hid with Christ.

A believer is not subject to condemnation any longer. He will be chastened, but not condemned.

The truth that you seem to overlook is that the Law demands perfect obedience ALL the time. To break one law is to break ALL of it.

Therefore we need a righteousness before God that allows us into His presence. The Good News IS NOT what I must do to be saved. It is instead what God has done in Christ to save me.

L
Logic

TaylorOtwell wrote:
I'm noticing that every time that truefaithsav or Logic quote 2nd Corinthians 5:21 they have to insert words into the verse to make it fit their argument.
It is just like the Bible using [i]italics[/i].
The [i]italicized[/i] word is not in the Greek or Hebrew, but inserted for clarification.

[b]Psalm 14:1[/b] [color=990000]The fool hath said in his heart, [i]There is[/i] no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, [i]there is[/i] none that doeth good.[/color]

The Hebrew would have it as [color=990000]The fool hath said in his heart, no God...[/color]
The word "No" means "none", as in there is none.

But ith out the [i]added words[/i], one could think it means, "The fool hath said in his heart 'I disagree God".

[color=990000]For he has made him [i]to be[/i] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.[/color]

Therefore the literal would be "[color=990000]For he has made him sin for us, who knew no sin...[/color]"
With out the [i]added words[/i], one could think it says that God made Jesus sin (made jesus to actually do sin).

Guys, the verse does not say "made sin (sin offering)". That parenthetical clarification is not in my Bible, I don't know about y'alls...
The Greek does not say, "For he hath made him [b]to be[/b] sin for us" either, but it actually says, "made Jesus sin".
We are just doing what the translaters are doing with [i]italicized words[/i], putting them there for clairification.

Did anyone ever answer my question as to why Paul would use the exact same word for "sin" in 2 Corinthians 5:21 if they were to mean two completely different things?
It does not matter if he used the same word, but that the word is in context.
[color=990000]God made Jesus to be a[/color] ("sin offering" as this was how God did it in the Old Testament to cover sin) [color=990000]who knew no sin[/color] (did not have any experience of sin, therefore innocent) [color=990000]for us[/color] (on our account) [color=990000]that we might be made the righteousness of God in him[/color] (because a sin offering was offered to God).

If we supply "sin offering" consistently for the Greek word as apparently suggested, the verse would read "he who knew no sin-offering". That doesn't make any sense.
Correct, it does not make any sense, but neither does making Jesus to be actual sin make any sense, this is even more absurd.

We must understand that God had sin offerings made in the Old Testament. Jesus is that ultimate sin offering; The Lamb of God.
The Offering was never "made [i]to be[/i] sin", as you would have it, but it was a sacrifice [b]offered[/b] in our place as a substitute.

S
sermonindex

By the way justification is a legal declaration of being righteous

WHAT IS JUSTIFICATION??

‘By these words [Romans 4:6-7] we are taught that justification with Paul is nothing else but pardon of sin” [b]John Calvin[/b], (Albert Barnes Commentary on the Romans, p. 106)

"In response to heart faith a marvelous thing happens. In heaven, we are justified… our standing before God has changed. Justified means it is as though I had never sinned." [b]Paris Reidhead[/b] (Finding the Reality of God, pg 111)

“What is gospel justification? It consists not in the law pronouncing the sinner just, but in his being ultimately governmentally treated as if he were just; that is, it consists in a governmental decree of pardon or amnesty – in arresting and setting aside the execution of the incurred penalty of law – in pardoning and restoring to favor those who have sinned, and those whom the law pronounced guilty, and upon whom it had passed the sentence of eternal death, and rewarding them as if they had been righteous… (Romans 4:6-7). This quotation from David shows both what David and what Paul understood by justification, to wit, the pardon and acceptance of the penitent sinner.” [b]Charles Finney[/b] (Finney’s Systematic Theology, Published by Bethany House, p. 360).

“It is very evident that in this text [Acts 13:38-39] forgiveness and justification are used interchangeably, as synonymous terms… In this rich passage [Rom. 3:25-26], which presents the fundamental elements of redemption, to remit sins and to justify, on the basis of the atonement, through the instrumentality of faith, are treated as precisely the same thing, and signify a release from the guilt and punishment of past sin, through the forbearance of God.” [b]Asbury Lowrey[/b], (Positive Theology, Published by R. P. Thompson, 1854, p. 211-212)

“What is justification then? To be justified is to have our sin forgiven, such that the penalty of that sin will not be carried out on us as the guilty parties. We remain guilty for the sin, but because of the atonement of Christ, and our meeting the conditions (repentance, faith), God is free to release us from the punishment we deserve to receive, He can treat us governmentally as if we were righteous, even though we are guilty of breaking his law. It is this governmental treatment as righteous, even though we are guilty, that constitutes justification.” [b]Michael Saia[/b] (Understanding the Cross, Published by Xulon, p. 133).

Let it be clear that forgiveness, justification, or imputed righteousness is conditional upon an attitude of heart repentance (Isa. 55:7; Eze. 18:32; Mk. 1:4; Lk. 13:3; 13:5; 24:47) and faith from the heart (Jn. 3:18; Acts 16:31; Rom. 10:9; Eph. 2:8-9). And final salvation is ultimately conditional upon perseverance unto the end (Matt. 10:22; 24:13; Mk. 13:13; Acts 13:43; Acts 14:22; Heb. 3:6; 3:14; 2 Pet. 2:20). Repentance is when a person changes their mind about sinning and makes up their mind to sin no more (Isa. 1:16; 55:7; Jn. 5:14; 8:11; 1 Cor. 15:34; Eph. 4:22-28), and faith is the hearts embrace and obedience to the truth (Lk. 24:25; Acts 8:37; 15:9; 26:18; Rom. 10:10; 1 Pet. 1:22).

The notion of being righteous in our position but unrighteous in our practice is absolutely contrary to scripture (1 Jn. 3:7; 3:10), and it over looks the conditions of forgiveness and the nature of saving faith. Such a concept is false doctrine and damnable heresy (2 Pet. 2:1; Jude 1:4-5).

Jesus is the author of salvation to all them that obey Him (Heb. 5:9), the Gospel must be obeyed (Rom. 2:8; 6:17; 10:16; Gal. 3:1; 5:7; 2 Thes. 1:8; 1 Pet. 4:17). Christians are those who keep God’s commandments (1 Jn. 2:3; 3:22; 5:2-3). Only those who keep God’s commandments will enter through the gates into the Heaven (Matt. 7:21; 19:17; 25:21, 23, 46; Lk. 10:28; Heb. 12:14; Rev. 22:14), while all sinners will be left outside the Holy City (Matt. 7:23; Lk. 13:27; Rev. 22:15). God will kill and destroy all sinners and rebels (Amos 9:10; 2 Cor. 10:6; 2 Thes. 1:8; Heb. 10:27; 1 Pet. 4:8; 4:17).

The wrath of God is impartial (Ex. 32:33; Deut. 10:17; Rom. 2:9; 2 Cor. 10:6; Col. 3:25; 2 Pet. 1:17; 1 Jn. 3:15; Rev. 21:8; 22:15), so anyone who consciously or knowingly sins or rebels is under condemnation (Jn. 3:19; Rom. 1:18, 2:6-11; Heb. 10:26-31; 1 Jn. 3:8, 3:15, 3:20; 2 Jn. 1:9). God is utterly against all those who sin every day (Isa. 52:5; Hos 13:2; 2 Pet. 2:14). God must condemn all those who do not stop sinning.

Christians are those who were formerly disobedient (Tit. 3:3; 1 Pet. 3:20) but are no longer disobedient (Rom. 6:17; Php. 2:12). Christians make the daily choice to obey God (Lk. 9:23; 1 Cor. 15:31). Christians are not sinners (Ps. 66:18; Jn. 9:31; 2 Cor. 6:14; 1 Tim. 1:9; Jas. 5:16; 1 Pet. 3:12; 4:18; 1 Jn. 3:22) unless they backslide (Jas. 4:8; 5:19-20), all Christians are saints (Acts 9:13; 9:32; 9:41; 26:10; Rom. 1:7; 8:27; 12:13; 15:25-16; 15:26; 15:31; 16:2; 16:15; 1 Cor. 1:2; 6:1-2; 14:33; 16:1; 16:15; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1; 9:12; 13:13; Eph. 1:1; 1:15; 1:18; 2:19; 3:8; 3:18; 4:12; 5:3; 6:18; Php. 1:1; 4:22; Col. 1:2; 1:4; 1:12; 1:26; 1 Thes. 3:13; 2 Thes. 1:10; 1 Tim. 5:10; Phm. 1:5; 1:7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jud. 1:3; 1:14; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:7; 13:10; 14:12; 15:3; 16:6; 17:6; 18:24; 19:8; 20:9). As saints, Christians are sanctified (Acts 20:32; 26:18; 1 Cor. 1:2; 6:11; Heb. 2:11; 10:10; 10:14; Gal. 5:24; Jud. 1:1), that is, Christians are free from deliberate rebellion or intentional sin (Jn. 8:34-36; Rom. 6:2; 6:6-7; 6:11; 6:18; 6:22; 8:2; Gal. 5:24; Eph. 6:6). Christians have pure hearts (Matt. 5:8; Rom. 6:17; 1 Pet. 1:22), so they keep God’s commands (1 Jn. 2:3; 3:22; 5:2-3).

When men turn from all their sins and put their faith in the blood of Jesus Christ which was shed for them, God forgives them of their sin by remitting the penalty they deserve. God considers them righteous, governmentally treating them just as if they had never sinned.

A believer is not subject to condemnation any longer. He will be chastened, but not condemned.

The entire Bible which repeatedly and abundantly teaches the doctrine of probation or conditional security for believers (Eze. 3:20-21; 18:18-31; 33:12-20; Matt. 6:14-15; 10:22; 24:13; 24:48-51; 25:1-13; Mk. 4:16-19; 13:13; Jn. 6:66; 8:31; 15:6; Acts 1:25; 11:23; 13:43; 14:22; Rom. 8:13; 11:20-23; 1 Cor. 3:16-17; 6:9-10; 9:27; 10:5-13; 15:1-2; Gal. 5:4-9; 5:19-21; 6:7-9; Col. 1:21-23; 1 Thes. 3:5; 3:8; 2 Thes. 2:3; 1 Tim. 1:5-6; 1:18-20; 3:6; 4:1; 4:16; 5:15; 2 Tim. 2:12; 4:9-10; Heb. 2:1; 2:3; 3:6; 3:8-15; 3:18-19; 4:1; 4:11; 4:14; 6:1; 6:8; 6:11-12; 6:15; 10:23; 10:26-31; 10:35-39; 12:14-15; 12:25; Jas. 1:13-16; 5:19-20; 2 Pet. 1:9; 2:20-22; 3:17; Rev. 2:4-7; 2:10-11; 2:17; 2:25-26; 3:2-5; 3:10-12; 3:16; 3:19; 3:20; 21:8; 22:15).

The Bible speaks of Christians who have departed from the faith (Matt. 18:21-34; 24:10; Mk. 4:17; Lk. 8:13; Jn. 6:66; Acts 1:25 w. Matt. 19:28; 2 Thes. 2:3; 1 Tim. 1:19; 4:1; 2 Tim. 3:8; 4:10; Heb. 3:12-15; 4:1-11; 6:6; 10:29; 2 Pet. 2:20-22; Jud. 1:5).

We have the example of the unforgiving servant who was forgiven of his unpaid debt, but then later had his debt reinstated because of his immoral conduct (Matt. 18:23-35). This parable clearly shows how the Lord can graciously pardon an individual and then later execute the punishment that they deserve.

R
roaringlamb

The entire Bible which repeatedly and abundantly teaches the doctrine of probation or conditional security for believers

So then what do you make of Romans 8:30 "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

All past tense verbs. Not to mention the fact that Jesus says that those who come to Him will never be lost, but raised up on that day. John 6

In regard to Calvin, here are quotes from the Institutes on justification which are a little more than what you said.

[i]"2. Lest we should stumble at the very threshold (this we should do were we to begin the discussion without knowing what the subject is), let us first explain the meaning of the expressions, To be justified in the sight of God, to be Justified by faith or by works. A man is said to be justified in the sight of God when in the judgment of God he is deemed righteous, and is accepted on account of his righteousness; 2038for as iniquity is abominable to God, so neither can the sinner find grace in his sight, so far as he is and so long as he is regarded as a sinner. Hence, wherever sin is, there also are the wrath and vengeance of God. He, on the other hand, is justified who is regarded not as a sinner, but as righteous, and as such stands acquitted at the judgment-seat of God, where all sinners are condemned. As an innocent man, when charged before an impartial judge, who decides according to his innocence, is said to be justified by the judge, as a man is said to be justified by God when, removed from the catalogue of sinners, he has God as the witness and assertor of his righteousness. In the same manner, a man will be said to be justified by works, if in his life there can be found a purity and holiness which merits an attestation of righteousness at the throne of God, or if by the perfection of his works he can answer and satisfy the divine justice. On the contrary, a man will be justified by faith when, excluded from the righteousness of works, he by faith lays hold of the righteousness of Christ, and clothed in it appears in the sight of God not as a sinner, but as righteous. Thus we simply interpret justification, as the acceptance with which God receives us into his favor as if we were righteous; and we say that this justification consists in the forgiveness of sins and the imputation of the righteousness of Christ"[/i]

and more

[i]"In regard to the use of the term with reference to the present subject, when Paul speaks of the Scripture, “foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith,” (Gal. 3:8), what other meaning can you give it than that God imputes righteousness by faith? Again, when he says, “that he (God) might be just, and the justifier of him who believeth in Jesus,” (Rom. 3:26), what can the meaning be, if not that God, in consideration of their faith, frees them from the condemnation which their wickedness deserves? This appears still more plainly at the conclusion, when he exclaims, “Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us” (Rom. 8:33, 34). For it is just as if he had said, Who shall accuse those whom God has acquitted? Who shall condemn those for whom Christ pleads? To justify, therefore, is nothing else than to acquit from the charge of guilt, as if innocence were proved. Hence, when God justifies us through the intercession of Christ, he does not acquit us on a proof of our own innocence, but by an imputation of righteousness, so that though not righteous in ourselves, we are deemed righteous in Christ. Thus it is said, in Paul’s discourse in the Acts, “Through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins; and by him all that believe are justified from all things from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses,” (Acts 13:38, 39)."[/i]

I recommend you read the rest here so you can make a more informed use of using Calvin to try to argue justification-
[url=http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.v.xii.html]The Institutes Book 3[/url]

R
rookie

What do we do with Romans 8:30?

That which is predestined is the work of God transforming a corrupt man into the image of His Son. For those who obey,these will find their love of God grows and grows. This love overcomes the world. One can only have this if one continues to walk in the light of life....

Listen to this Scripture...

Job 33:23\t "If there is a messenger for him, A mediator, one among a thousand, To show man His uprightness,

Job 33:24\t Then He is gracious to him, and says, 'Deliver him from going down to the Pit; I have found a ransom';

Job 33:25\t His flesh shall be young like a child's, He shall return to the days of his youth.

Job 33:26\t He shall pray to God, and He will delight in him, He shall see His face with joy, For He restores to man His righteousness.

Job 33:27\t Then he looks at men and says, 'I have sinned, and perverted [what was] right, And it did not profit me.'

Job 33:28\t He will redeem his [fn] soul from going down to the Pit, And his life shall see the light.


In verse 26, we find that God restores to man HIs righteousness. This work of God brings many things to a man who continues to walk in the light of life...

In verse 27, we find that as this man walks in the light he testifies of the goodness of God that brings the truth to bear in each of our lives. Our old ways are perverted and these ways did not profit us. Only those who continue to walk will find this precept dear to their lives. Only those who walk in this manner, in the light of life will be transformed into the predestined work of Christ.

In Christ
Jeff

C
ceedub

truefaithsav:

[b]If our heart holds on to any sin at all[/b], if we refuse to give up any of our sins, then our heart is disobedient to God, [b]we are not regenerate or born again[/b].

Wow. What good news.
A little different than John's approach.
Though John spoke of plan A as 'sin not', he added immediately that if we did we had an advocate in Christ as is pictured beautifully in Zech 3.
According to the above quote, plan B is damnation.
Eventually it shows up how much good theology matters.

Mt 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.


I say again...


What about self-righteousness and spiritual pride, do they count as daily sins? How about poor doctrine? And what about lording so-called truths over others online in a fashion that I guarantee you wouldn't try in person?

Do these count as sins that those that are truly saved never do?

I'm just thinking about the Pharisees and how they held a high outward standard, spoke much of their righteousness, spoke often against others for not meeting their standard. How they would try and intimidate others and put burdens on them they themselves wouldn't carry. How they talked much of God and righteousness buy denied Christ's righteousness loving their own much more.

Do these sins count?

I mean, when I look at how Jesus dealt with the humble who hated their ways (proof of new cov't experience at the end of Ez 36) compared to how he dealt with the spiritually proud, I'm just wondering if these sins count.


T
TruthNLove

TrueSavFaith,

You are confusing (and blurring) the doctiness of Imputation and Justification by suggesting as you've stated that the Imputed Righteousness of Christ is equivocated to "forgiveness of sins" or "not giving what we deserve but treating us as we are righteous". That is Justification not the Imputation of Christ Righteousness. Now both doctrines reinforce one another. It is sometimes called the the doctrine "justification by imputation".

Let me explain. Justification can only be made true because of the Imputation of the Righteousness of Christ that happens during one's conversion (repentance and faith). 2 Cor 5:21 states God made him who had no sin to be sin for us,so that in him we might become the righteosness of God.

Therfore Justification means that we are no longer declared guilty of our sins (positionally) no longer condemned under the wrath of God because of our faith(biblical faith)which happens immediately at the time our our conversion. The phrase "In Him" signifies our faith in Christ in which the Holy Spirit has baptized us in to his body. By faith in Christ we are declared righteous (positionally) because Christ Righteousness has been Imputed to our account. That is Imputation of Christ Righteousness. We are in him by faith therefore his Righteousnes is in us clothed on us. If you deny the imputation of his righteousness (which is not forgiveness of sins as you stated, forgiveness of sins is a byproduct of conversion) credited to our account than you deny the imputation of our sins to Christ account.

Furthermore as stated in Gal 2:21 " I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the Law, Christ died for nothing. As you can clearly see Paul was not equivocating righteousness with "forgiveness of sins or treating us as righteous" as you've stated but suggesting that Righteousness is the demand of a Holy God in which cannot be gained through by keeping law (which is impossible to man) but only by grace through Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

For he alone is the Righteous (Infinitely perfect and Holy) one who satisfied the perfect demand of the Father by fullfilling the law. THerefore we have rest from the works of the law because of our faith in Christ. It is his Righteousness (positionally,which obviously suggest that we're forgiven) that allows us even come before him and be reconciled to God. Christ was our substitute we need his righteousness not just forgiveness as you stated.

Your dillema is that you muddy and cofuse two doctrines (that reinforce each other)Justification and the Imputation of Christ and try to make them the same thing in which thety are not.


T
twayneb

TrueSavFaith, You are confusing (and blurring) the doctiness of Imputation and Justification by suggesting as you've stated that the Imputed Righteousness of Christ is equivocated to "forgiveness of sins" or "not giving what we deserve but treating us as we are righteous". That is Justification not the Imputation of Christ Righteousness. Now both doctrines reinforce one another. It is sometimes called the the doctrine "justification by imputation". Let me explain. Justification can only be made true because of the Imputation of the Righteousness of Christ that happens during one's conversion (repentance and faith). 2 Cor 5:21 states God made him who had no sin to be sin for us,so that in him we might become the righteosness of God. Therfore Justification means that we are no longer declared guilty of our sins (positionally) no longer condemned under the wrath of God because of our faith(biblical faith)which happens immediately at the time our our conversion. The phrase "In Him" signifies our faith in Christ in which the Holy Spirit has baptized us in to his body. By faith in Christ we are declared righteous (positionally) because Christ Righteousness has been Imputed to our account. That is Imputation of Christ Righteousness. We are in him by faith therefore his Righteousnes is in us clothed on us. If you deny the imputation of his righteousness (which is not forgiveness of sins as you stated, forgiveness of sins is a byproduct of conversion) credited to our account than you deny the imputation of our sins to Christ account. Furthermore as stated in Gal 2:21 " I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the Law, Christ died for nothing. As you can clearly see Paul was not equivocating righteousness with "forgiveness of sins or treating us as righteous" as you've stated but suggesting that Righteousness is the demand of a Holy God in which cannot be gained through by keeping law (which is impossible to man) but only by grace through Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. For he alone is the Righteous (Infinitely perfect and Holy) one who satisfied the perfect demand of the Father by fullfilling the law. THerefore we have rest from the works of the law because of our faith in Christ. It is his Righteousness (positionally,which obviously suggest that we're forgiven) that allows us even come before him and be reconciled to God. Christ was our substitute we need his righteousness not just forgiveness as you stated. Your dillema is that you muddy and cofuse two doctrines (that reinforce each other)Justification and the Imputation of Christ and try to make them the same thing in which thety are not.

I think this is a point well made. If you take the whole counsel of scripture, you come to a conclusion something like this. Man was with God in a pure and righteous state before sin entered the world. Man sinned, and became dead in his spirit toward God. He was not righteous in the sight of God, nor could he be. For several reasons: to restrain sin, to show us on a level we could comprehend the holy standard of a holy God, and to cause us to despair of ever being able to attain that holiness on our own, God instituted the law to be in force until the fullness of time. Then came Jesus Christ. He became sin for us so that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. It was an atonement that we had no part in other than to surrender ourselves to the Savior, put faith in His grace, and receive right standing with God. Call it what you will theologically. In the process we are justified (it is a play on the word, but it really means that we stand before God just as if we had never sinned), we are saved (from having to bear the consequences of our sin), we are born again (there has been a regeneration, a bringing to life, a quickening of our spirit. We can now fellowship with God once again in spirit and in truth. The enmity has been taken away), we are made righteous (a right standing before God has been given unto us through the shed blood of Jesus Christ that we could not earn). It is possible to lose that right standing, but not through an action of sin. Should I sin so that God's grace may abound all the more unto me??? God forbid!!! How shall I, who am dead to sin, continue to live in sin? But I am not made unrighteous in God's sight due to an action of sin. If that were the case, I live my life on a tortuous rollercoaster of being saved / lost / saved / lost and born again again every time I sin. Scripture just does not teach this. Sin is deadly. To continue in sin that God has dealt with my heart about means I have to harden my heart to Him. It opens the door for the enemy to come in and wreck havoc on my life. But if you read Hebrews carefully, you will find that the way to lose right standing with God is to forsake your salvation, to turn away unto perdition.

i know the common arguments and the common objections. Some denominations preach what is always condemned as the "once saved always saved" doctrine. Some on the other side preach conditional immortality to the extreme that one act of unrepented sin damns a person to hell until they get it "under the blood" so to speak. I cannot agree with either I guess.

If I am born again, my spirit will cringe at the thought of sinning. I will not desire it in the least bit. So many make it about sinning or not sinning, about actions and deeds and how God sees them. I contend that actions and deeds are important, but that is not what salvation, justification, redemption, regeneration, imputed righteousness is all about.

I live a holy life, probably holier than most around me as far as my outward actions are concerned. (Not saying this in any kind of pride. Just acknowledging a fact) I have never smoked. I have never drank. I could count my lifetime allotment of using curse words on two hands. I don't own a television... But NONE of these things does one bit of good in making me right with God nor in having God be one bit more pleased with me than with anyone else. I am righteous one thing. That is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ being imputed unto me. I am nothing on my own. Through Christ I am made righteous, and walk in that standing. It has made me so free, and caused me to run to Him any time I fall short, throw myself at His feet, repent, and get right back in the game. It has caused me to grow in holiness day by day out of pure desire for Him and for His holiness.

Maybe I am rambling. That is a little bit of how I see it anyway.

Travis.

L
Logic

ceedub wrote:
truefaithsav wrote:
[b]If our heart holds on to any sin at all[/b], if we refuse to give up any of our sins, then our heart is disobedient to God, [b]we are not regenerate or born again[/b].
Wow. What good news.
A little different than John's approach.
Though John spoke of plan A as 'sin not', he added immediately that if we did we had an advocate in Christ as is pictured beautifully in Zech 3.
According to the above quote, plan B is damnation.
Wow, I can't believe a Christian would disagree to what you just did.

John never argued that, John said [b]IF[/b] we sin, not WHEN we sin.
Plan B is repentance.

The regenerate or born again will not hold on to any sin at all.
The regenerate or born again will not refuse to give up any of our sins.
The fact that you are holding on to any sin or refusing to give up any of your sins is proving you are not regenerate or born again.

Actually The regenerate or born again let go of sin imediatly when revealed.

Eventually it shows up how much good theology matters.
Good theology does matter. You should adopt some.

Tell me how you refute:
If our heart holds on to any sin at all, if we refuse to give up any of our sins, then our heart is disobedient to God.

Would you say that if you hold on to any sin,
if you refuse to give up any of your sins,
Is your heart obedient to God or disobedient?

[b]Matthew 7:2[/b] [color=990000]For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.[/color]
This is the sinner’s favorite verse to quote.

If I judge a thief, I can not be judged as a thief because I am not a thief.

Matthew 7:2 is only if you do the same sin as you are judging, you will be judged as you are judging.
(I can't believe I had to explain this to a Christian)

R
roaringlamb

The fact that you are holding on to any sin or refusing to give up any of your sins is proving you are not regenerate or born again.

It's so wonderful to have sinless people like you to dialogue with.

I wonder why you even need Jesus to do anything for you as you have all the Law met and you never ever sin, or at least you confess it quickly. Wow you're so good!

But consider that the moment you sin, you, if you are born again and trusting ONLY in Christ's righteousness as you acceptance with God, DOES NOT change your relationship with the Father as far as being back under condemnation.

You are getting very close to becoming the blind guide who was so focused on outward sins alone that they were full of dead men's bones.

Your own righteousness(which if we here at SI can see through as nothing but self righteousness) should cause you to fear that you may be passing on Christ's righteousness.

I still don't understand why you even need Christ to die, o even why you would pray or anything like that as it seems you've already arrived and it is up to us mere sinners to ascend to your teaching(if we were truly born again).

Yep that was harsh, because you have and continue to twist Scripture, and deny what is being said both linguistically and logically to push your own presupposition onto the text and then onto us, even though MANY have told you you are off base.

I was thinking of you today as I read the rich young ruler passage. It is funny because he had the audacity to tell Christ "all these things I have kept, what do I lack?"

Then Jesus exposes his heart and says, "go sell what you have and give it to the poor"(love your neighbor as yourself), "and follow me"(love God with all your heart).

In a moment all of his so called Law keeping was destroyed and he went away sorrowful with his self righteousness done away with.

C
ceedub

Logic,

[b]Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.[/b]

While you're stooping to explain the basics to a moron like me, can you also explain how you apply this exhortation from Paul line by line?

But only towards me, because if you're 'truly regen and born again' I guess you'd never need the forgiveness part being as you never sin.

But then again, if you blow it wholesale on all 3 lines, you're not tender hearted, you're not kind and you don't forgive anyone but instead tell them they're not saved and at best very ignorant, then again maybe you might need more forgiveness than you originally thought.

I usually don't have to explain this to christians.

S
sermonindex

The regenerate or born again will not hold on to any sin at all.
The regenerate or born again will not refuse to give up any of our sins.
The fact that you are holding on to any sin or refusing to give up any of your sins is proving you are not regenerate or born again.

Amen!! A regenerate heart is a heart that rejects all sin! A born again man is one who will not refuse to obey God!

The grace of God does not leave us as an old man, but changes us into a new man. The old man served sin, the new man serves Christ. The old man sinned every day. The new man follows Christ every day. The unregenerate heart was hostile towards God and disobedient towards Him. The regenerate heart is submitted and surrendered unto God, it is obedient to Him. By the grace of God, and by the influence of the Holy Spirit, sinners are turned into Saints! That is what glorifies God! That is what exalts the saving power of Jesus Christ!

If we are sinning every day in word, thought, and deed, are we really being changed by the grace of God?? Are we really not walking in our flesh, rather then relying on the grace of God?

S
sermonindex

In the Bible, forgiveness, remission, imputed righteousness, justiication, etc are all terms that express the same thing. It is when we are pardoned for all of our past sins and are accepted and shown divine favor, when we repent and believe, and are treated as if we had always been righteous. "The righteousness of God" is the unmerited favor and forgiveness which comes from God.

The Bible never talks about "the imputed righteousness of Christ" as John Wesley pointed out. The Bible talks about "the righteousness of God" which is the forgiveness which comes from Him, and the Bible talks about "imputed righteousness" which is when God considers us or treats us as righteous, as if we had never sinned.

R
roaringlamb

In the Bible, forgiveness, remission, imputed righteousness, justiication, etc are all terms that express the same thing.

No they are not and that is specifically why differing words are used for each one.

"the imputed righteousness of Christ" as John Wesley pointed out

and if Wesley truly believed this, then he did not preach the Gospel! the Gospel is not the Gospel WITHOUT imputation.

Even Galatians 2:20 shows an exchange, "He loved me AND gave Himself for me"

The word "for" is "huper" which means "in behalf of".

Christ died in behalf of those who will be saved BECAUSE their sin was imputed to Him, so that His righteousness could be imputed to them by simple faith.

"the righteousness of God"

No, this is not simply forgiveness of sins! it is the perfection required by God to stand before Him without condemnation.

"imputed righteousness" which is when God considers us or treats us as righteous, as if we had never sinned.

No that is justification. That is why Paul specifically uses a legal word to describe what has happened.

We can be justified(declared righteous) because Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, as it CLEARLY says in 2 Corinthians 5:21

They are not all synonymous, and maybe that is why you are struggling to grasp this?

L
Logic

roaringlamb wrote:
The fact that you are holding on to any sin or refusing to give up any of your sins is proving you are not regenerate or born again.
It's so wonderful to have sinless people like you to dialogue with.
With the correct definition of sin, one never ever has to sin again in his entire life.
Sin is always avoidable.

Sin must be repentable, if you can't help it, then it is not repentable.

I wonder why you even need Jesus to do anything for you as you have all the Law met and you never ever sin, or at least you confess it quickly.
God has given us Jesus Spirit as a Helper to help us pray, to teach us all things and bring all things to our remembrance whatsoever HE has said to us.
To give us power to be witnesses of HIM and to live a sinless & holy life...etc...

Jesus has freed us from sin Rom 6:18
cleanses us from all sin 1 Jn 1:7
cleanses us from all unrighteousness 1Jn 1:9
free from the law of sin and death Rom 8:2

If Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Wewre do you get that we don't need Jesus?

Wow you're so good!
Jesus is so good, He says to go & sin NO MORE. We should obey and SIN NO MORE.
HE wouldn't tell us to do anything we can't do.
But you might think HE was kidding.

You are getting very close to becoming the blind guide who was so focused on [b]outward sins[/b] alone that they were full of dead men's bones.
Say I have an "inward sin".
I don't know about it, therefore I am innocent.
Then God sheds light on my "inward sin"; When that happens, I immediately repent. Therefore, I stay innocent.

My heart was innocent, even after God revealed it because I immediately repented; my did not sin; therefore I did not sin.

Or say that I unintentionally "sinned".
I didn't mean to, it was an "Oops!"
My heart was innocent, it did not sin; therefore I did not sin.

Your own righteousness(which if we here at SI can see through as nothing but self righteousness) should cause you to fear that you may be passing on Christ's righteousness.
How is doing that which one is supposed to do (not supposed to sin) having one's own righteousness?
How is being obedient having one's own righteousness?
[b]Please answer this?[/b]

I still don't understand why you even need Christ to die
Christ died so that our sins may be forgiven.
[b]IF[/b] we sin (not "when" we sin), we have Jesus as our advocate, because He died.

o even why you would pray or anything like that as it seems you've already arrived and it is up to us mere sinners to ascend to your teaching(if we were truly born again).
What's your point in saying this?

...because you have and continue to [b]twist Scripture[/b]
Your the one who's theology/doctrine is contrary to reality.
In order for ones theology/doctrine to be contrary to reality, one must twist Scripture to have it so.

and deny what is being said both linguistically and logically
Logically?
You’re the one who says Jesus became an ambiguous sin.
This is not logical.

to push your own presupposition onto the text and then onto us, even though MANY have told you are off base.
Tell that to Barnes & Clarke.
Jamieson Fausset Brown Commentary says that Jesus became the Sin-bearer (as HE bore our sins Isa 53:12)

I am not "pushing" my "own presupposition onto the text", but making sense of it.
Your not making any sense by saying Jesus became an ambiguous sin on the cross.

In a moment all of his so called Law keeping was destroyed and he went away sorrowful with his self righteousness done away with.
The rich young ruler wasn’t willing to repent. It's not that he couldn't.

Why is it that you are so hard pressed to deny that one could stop sinning?
Isn't God good enough to let you stop doing that which HE hates
Even Scripture says that you are free from sin; why must you continue in it?

R
roaringlamb

Why is it that you are so hard pressed to deny that one could stop sinning?

Did you sin today?

L
Logic

roaringlamb wrote:
Why is it that you are so hard pressed to deny that one could stop sinning?
Did you sin today?
No.

You may be asking because you you did.

Why did you sin today?
Couldn't you help it?
Was it out of your control?

Do you ever answer my questions with out me asking twice?

How is doing that which one is supposed to do (not supposed to sin) having one's own righteousness?
How is being obedient having one's own righteousness?
Please answer this?
Did you have to sin?

J
jimp

hi, sin is a strange thing... a priest of 30 years said that in 30 years not one person confessed that they ever coveted anything. its always someone else who sins. pride is satans sin... discouragement is his greatest weapon... sins of omission[not giving to the poor etc.] are onesthat we blow off.a haughty spirit,lost temper on the job or highway... strife or envy are sins that smell and whatsoever is not of faith is sin. i am sure that if i walked with anyone long enough they would see past my facade and i theirs. thank God for Jesus who took care of sin at the cross.jimp

C
ceedub

Did you sin today?

No.
You may be asking because you you did.
Couldn't you help it?
Was it out of your control?


It's no coincidence that a man that denies imputed righteousness would be filled with pride, anger and resentment. Imagine the energy it takes to convince one's self all day every day that they're perfect, or don't need their feet washed daily? It would wear on you and make you bitter.
Then you'd have to deal with the conviction of the Holy Spirit pointing out that you're actually not perfect. Pointing out that your ad hominem attacks on others by implying they love their sin because they don't claim to be perfect like you.

What arrogance. It's the height of blindness to accuse God's people of loving their sin and wanting to hold onto it, just to win an argument built on falsehood.


Peter boasted before the Lord of his will and his righteousness.
Then the Lord let him know that Satan was on his way.
I pray the Lord will intercede for you as well, that once you're converted, you will be an encourager to the brethren and not an accuser.


The Lord loved Peter in the midst of his misguided zeal.

Eph 4:32

R
roaringlamb

Why did you sin today? Couldn't you help it? Was it out of your control?

I did sin today(yesterday). I didn't love God every minute of the day, there were moments where I was worried about the future, worried if God really will provide for my needs. I also didn't love my neighbor as myself as I saw people who didn't have food last night, and I didn't feed them, but I made sure I ate.

I also coveted, because there are time where I desire to have a family, and a loving wife like others do.

So yep I sinned.

And NONE of those things kept me from communion with the Father, because I told Him about all of them, and He assured me from His word, "your sins and iniquities I will remember NO MORE!"

In regard to your question about obedience and self righteousness, that is not what I am saying. Obedience should come from love. Which is because Christ has first loved us and given Himself for us. His righteousness is the catalyst for obedience as we see that God for the sake of Christ has imputed a righteousness to us that will never fail.

It seems to me that you use your obedience to say that God MUST accept you because you do not sin. That is what worries me.

L
Logic

roaringlamb wrote:
Why did you sin today? Couldn't you help it? Was it out of your control?
I did sin today(yesterday). I didn't love God every minute of the day, there were moments where I was worried about the future, worried if God really will provide for my needs.
Since sin is always a choice and Jesus lived a sinless life, it is possible for any man to live a sinless life. If it wasn't, we are condemned for something we must do; condemned for something which is impossible to avoid.

You're the one twisting scripture making God out to be ridiculous; mixing Gnosticism/Manichaeism theology into Christian theology/doctrine.

There is no Scripture which says that "everyone in Adam is guilty". Though everyone might have broken God's law, you can not prove that Able, Enoch, or Job has;
Obedience is always possible, and disobedience is never necessary or unavoidable. God declares, My yoke is easy, and my burden is light (Matt. 11:30).
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not burdensome (1John 5:3 ).

Concerning loving God the way we should": The extent of God's commandments is the exact extent of man's ability, and the extent of man's ability is the extent of God's commandments. The law of God is therefore the law of our ability: to love Him supremely and our neighbor equally as ourself, according to our ability, with all of our ability, no more and no less.
Notice that God does not command that we love Him with faculties that we do not possess, but rather that we love Him with all that we currently possess, with all thy, as opposed to with that which is not currently yours.
The commandments are directions to man as to how he is to use his ability. The commandments of God are not impossible, demanding that we love Him with a heart, soul, mind and strength that we do not have. Rather, it is possible to keep the law of God, which demands that we love Him with all of what we do have, with all that we are capable of, to the very highest of our ability, no more and no less. It is possible to keep the law because we are capable, and we are capable because it is possible to keep the law; our God-given commandments and our God-given ability directly correspond with each other.

E. M. Bounds asked, Does God give commandments which men cannot obey? Is He so arbitrary, so severe, so unloving, as to issue commandments which cannot be obeyed? The answer is that in all of annals of Holy Scripture, not a single instance is recorded of God having commanded any man to do a thing, which was beyond his power. Is God so unjust and so inconsiderate as to require of man that which he is unable to render? To infer is to slander the character of God.18

God is not a tyrant, and His laws are not tyrannical.

Are people in trouble spiritually because they inherit some spiritual defect from their parents or grandparents? No. They are in trouble because when they reach the age of accountability they deliberately turn their own way - they commit their will to the principle and practice of pleasing as the end of their being. That is sin. Paris Reidhead (Finding the Reality of God, pg 64-65)

I also didn't love my neighbor as myself as I saw people who didn't have food last night, and I didn't feed them, but I made sure I ate.
You were not obligated to feed every single person you see with out food.
Jesus came to a porch with many sick & lame people, but only heeled one (John 5:1-9).

You did not sin it this.

I also coveted, because there are time where I desire to have a family, and a loving wife like others do
That is not a sin.
It is natural & a good thing to want a better family as you see others have.

So yep I sinned.
Nope, you didn't.

His righteousness is the catalyst for obedience
No, your love for Him is the catalyst for obedience.

as we see that God for the sake of Christ has imputed a righteousness to us that will never fail.
Yes, but "imputed" does not mean transfer, but deem.
Our faith is deemed (counted, reckoned, estimated...etc...) as righteousness (Rom 4:5), Not our faith is transferred as righteousness.

It seems to me that you use your obedience to say that God MUST accept you because you do not sin. That is what worries me.
Your wrong.
I use my obedience to prove my that5 I have faith (James 2:24)

My obedience is because I love God.
[b]John 14:15[/v] [color=990000]If you love me, keep my commandments.[/color]
[b]John 14:21[/b]
[color=990000]"Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me.[/color]

which is the great commandment in the law?
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. n these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets (Mat 22:36-40).
He that loves another has fulfilled the law (Rom 13:8,10; Gal 5:14).

L
Logic

ceedub wrote:
Did you sin today?

No.
You may be asking because you you did.
Couldn't you help it?
Was it out of your control?

It's no coincidence that a man that denies imputed righteousness
I don't deny imputed righteousness.

be filled with pride, anger and resentment
Not me.

Imagine the energy it takes to convince one's self all day every day that they're perfect, or don't need their feet washed daily?
Imagine the energy it takes to convince one's self that he can't stop sinning when God commands him to.

Dirty feet does not mean one has sin.
[b]John 13:10[/b] [color=990000]Jesus said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but [b]is completely clean[/b][/color]

Pointing out that your ad homonym attacks on others by implying they love their sin because they don't claim to be perfect like you.
I never claimed that any of you love your sin.
I just told you the fact that sinners love their sin. You are not sinners (if you are Christian) even though you think you are

What arrogance. It's the height of blindness to accuse God's people of loving their sin and wanting to hold onto it, just to win an argument built on falsehood.
If you just read my posts to understand and ask questions to help you understand, instead of defend your position, you would know that I do not accuse God's people of loving their sin and wanting to hold onto it.

I only say that sinners love their sin and want to old onto it.
You Christians are not sinners, even though you think you are. You don't love sin & would never want to hold onto it.

My argument is built on common sense (reasoning & logic) and reality from Scripture.

Peter boasted before the Lord of his will and his righteousness.
No he didn't.
Peter was trusting in his own strength by walking in the flesh to succeed in spiritual things. That is why he failed.

R
roaringlamb

Does God give commandments which men cannot obey?

Yes, He does so that we will plead for His grace and mercy to change us and to give us what He requires of us both for justification, sanctification, and ultimately glorification.

With that said, I would only like to ask you how you could dismiss my coveting as "not sin" when it is one of the Ten Commandments?

See this is where you play word games and seem to contradict Scripture. Scripture says to love God with ALL your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself.

ANY time we fail in this, we sin as Scripture says that sin is the breaking of God's Law.

Consider too that Paul in one of his last Epistles written around 60-61 AD said the following-
"Not that I have already obtained this [b]or am already perfect[/b]"

And he is talking about moral perfection or sinlessness. I don't think you are more holy than Paul.

S
sermonindex


Miccah wrote:
LoinGirder wrote:


"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever holdeth correct opinions about him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16


Your spirit is not of God. Do you not fear the Lord?

Why should I or any other dogmatist fear the Lord? It is people who disagree with me who are in danger of hellfire. I bend the Scriptures to fit evangelical orthodoxy because it is impossible to bend evangelical orthodoxy to fit the Scriptures without breaking it. As the argumentation in this thread demonstrates, the Word of God is pliable; the doctrines of men are immovable.

L
Logic

roaringlamb wrote:
Does God give commandments which men cannot obey?
Yes,
This is tyrannical.

He does so that we will plead for His grace and mercy to change us and to give us what He requires of us both for justification, sanctification, and ultimately glorification.
That is like throwing a person who can't swimm into the water just so you can save him.
This is lunacy.

And to require of us anything without first giving it to us before we are condemned for not having it is also lunacy.

Your theology/doctrine has never made any sense or held to a bit of reality as I can remember.

[b]Will you make it a point to answer this question:[/b]
Since your theology/doctrine does not even fit into reality, how are you suposed to show anyone that God is real.

And if you present Him as you do, as a tyrant, why will they come to Him?

In some of my experiences, the lost and hell bound people have your theology and will not come to God because it does not make any sense.
Their excuses are based on what you actually believe.
Faith is based on credible issues and matters, not on incredible as your's.

We must keep God in reality so we are credible in our preaching & witnessing.
If we have an unreal theology, the god of the theology is unreal!

With that said, I would only like to ask you how you could dismiss my coveting as "not sin" when it is one of the Ten Commandments?
I covet the prayers of the saints.
I dismiss that as not sinning.

You covet the better family which you see others have.
To covet good things are not sinful.
It is only sinful to covet unlawful things.

I covet, for myself, how my friend prays (I wish I could pray like he does).
That is not a sin, but a good thing.

See this is where you play word games and seem to contradict Scripture. Scripture says to love God with ALL your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself.

ANY time we fail in this, we sin as Scripture says that sin is the breaking of God's Law.

It is not like we don't have control over ourselves.
Did you not read my post?
Do you disagree?
That God does not command that we love Him with faculties that we do not possess, but rather that we love Him with all that we currently possess…
Do you disagree that which E. M. Bounds asked…

You speak like you can't help sinning.
How is it posible to repent from sin when it can't be helped?

Consider too that Paul in one of his last Epistles written around 60-61 AD said the following-
"Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect"

And he is talking about moral perfection or sinlessness.

No. Paul is talking about that he might attain unto the resurrection of the dead (Php 3:11)
Then he goes onto say that he was not already perfect[b]ed[/b] (fully matured), which means that he denies that he has reached a spiritual impasse of non-development; but he presses forward...etc...
Perfection is not "flawlessness" but "maturity"

And he is talking about moral perfection or sinlessness.
No, he's not.
He is talking about the goal being Christ and all that involves HIM.

I don't think you are [b]more[/b] holy than Paul.
Me neither. However we are all [b]AS[/b] holy as he is through faith (unless you are in sin, which denies holiness, and faith)

R
roaringlamb

This is tyrannical.

Was it tyrannical for Jesus to tell a man who could not walk to walk?

Was it tyrannical for Jesus to tell a man with a withered arm to stretch it out?

Of course not because He gave the ability to perform what He commanded them to do. I still don't see how you overlook this.

how are you suposed to show anyone that God is real.

I'm not and cannot. I can preach the Gospel and reason with people, but as it says in Scripture, the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts of sin, and testifies to the reality of Christ.

Aside from this, all men know there is a God by creation, and they hate that or try to make an idol to worship as I did prior to coming to faith.

I covet the prayers of the saints.

That is completely different.

Mine stems from the fact that at times I do not feel that God knows what is best for me. Which can lead to me murmuring about His providence in my life.

That God does not command that we love Him with faculties that we do not possess, but rather that we love Him with all that we currently possess…

Show me a verse that says that, and that somehow diminishes the Law and the need for it to be kept perfectly by someone in order for righteousness in God's sight.

the resurrection of the dead

and what happens then? Perfection, sinlessness, glory.

But not until then!

You make too little of the Law and its demands my friend.

B
BenK

I was reading Philippians this morning:

3:8-9
"For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith"

Marvelous! What joy that my righteousness is not based on my performance, rather through faith in Christ! He is my righteousness!

L
Logic

roaringlamb wrote:
This is tyrannical.
Was it tyrannical for Jesus to tell a man who could not walk to walk?
Was it tyrannical for Jesus to tell a man with a withered arm to stretch it out?

Of course not because He gave the ability to perform what He commanded them to do. I still don't see how you overlook this.

Huh?
These are healings, not a command that if he didn't walk he'd be condemned.

However, Jesus said, "go & sin no more" but you say I can't. You just said that He gives the ability to perform what He commands to do."

Apparently, you don't even believe what you say.


how are you supposed to show anyone that God is real.
I'm not and cannot. I can preach the Gospel and reason with people, but as it says in Scripture, the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts of sin, and testifies to the reality of Christ.
How is God supposed to convict of sin, and testify to the reality of Christ when you make no sense and make God out to be ridiculous


I also coveted, because there are time where I desire to have a family, and a loving wife like others do
I covet the prayers of the saints.
That is completely different.
No it isn't.
You covet to have a family, and a loving wife like others do.
That is a Godly thing to want a better family.

The coveting which would be wrong is to want that family and not your own.

Mine stems from the fact that at times I do not feel that God knows what is best for me.
That is not what your doing when you want a better family.
A better family is good, and God wants you to have a better family, but it is up to you to be obedient and make it happen by pushing against the current, coming closer to Him and to guide your family toward Him with you; this will make a better family.

Don't think that God is the reason that your family isn't as good as it can be; thinking that He has it that way.

My marriage could be better, I am not going to sit back & think that wanting a better marriage is a sin because what I have now is His perfect will.

Which can lead to me murmuring about His providence in my life.
It may lead to that, but it is not the cause. you never have to murmur.
Wanting a better marriage and murmuring because you don't have one is stupid because you're not doing anything about it to make it better.

God's providence in one's life usually comes with one's work of faith. Not just by standing around & waiting for it to fall into your lap.

That God does not command that we love Him with faculties that we do not possess, but rather that we love Him with all that we currently possess…
Show me a verse that says that.
[b]Matthew 22:37[/b] [color=990000]Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all [b]your[/b] heart, and with all [b]your[/b] soul, and with all [b]your[/b] mind.[/color]
It does not say.
You shall love the Lord your God with your heart more than you are able, and with your soul more than you are able, and with your mind more than you are able.

and that somehow diminishes the Law and the need for it to be kept perfectly by someone in order for righteousness in God's sight.
I'm not implying that one does this in order to be righteous in God's sight.

All one needs is faith with works to be deemed as righteous (without work, faith is dead)

The "works of faith" are basically love; love fulfills the law.
If you Love God, Keep His commandments, His commandments are not burdensome.
The righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Consider too that Paul in one of his last Epistles written around 60-61 AD said the following-
"Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect"

And he is talking about moral perfection or sinlessness.

No. Paul is talking about that he might attain unto the resurrection of the dead (Php 3:11)
And what happens then? Perfection, sinlessness, glory.
But not until then!
Perfection is not flawlessness.
Perfection is maturity.
The resurrection of the dead is when we will have no temptation to sin.
It's not like we can't sin.
Lucifer sin in heaven, it hasn't changed any.

We have temptations in this life, and we give into them because our flesh is so strong, but we never have to.
We can live a sinless life by always choosing to not sin.
Jesus proved it able to be done.

You make too little of the Law and its demands my friend.
No, I make the law reasonable and as a Just standard for us to be under.

You're the one who makes the law to be unreasonable and an unjust standard.

R
roaringlamb

No, I make the law reasonable and as a Just standard for us to be under.

and by doing so, remove the wrath that the Law should bring AND the joy in Christ's work for us.

You will never know the fullness of Christ's work until you hear the fullness of the wrath that is in the Law.

You're the one who makes the law to be unreasonable and an unjust standard.

Not at all, I am basically showing that the Law DEMANDS perfection ALL the time. Therefore, we need that perfection ALL the time, and it is not in us or from us, and never will be.

I am allowing the Law to do what God has desired it to do; drive me to Christ as my ONLY hope for acceptance and righteousness.

R
roaringlamb

Logic,

I also wanted to know how you determine the word "sin" in 2 Corinthians 5:21 to mean "sin offering"?

Also if that is the case, how do you get the freedom to make it mean something it doesn't mean, and how do you differentiate when and how does it change?

Here is the word-
G266
ἁμαρτία
hamartia
Thayer Definition:
1) equivalent to 264
1a) to be without a share in
1b) to miss the mark
1c) to err, be mistaken
1d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour,to do or go wrong
1e) to wander from the law of God, violate God’s law, sin
2) that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act
3) collectively, the complex or aggregate of sins committed either by a single person or by many
Part of Speech: [b]noun[/b] feminine

Notice that "sin offering" is not mentioned as a definition for the word. This word appears in 151 verses in the NT, and NEVER means "sin offering". There are 174 times this word appears in the NT, and never is used for "sin offering".

So again, I ask you to please tell me how you can make a word mean something it doesn't mean anywhere else and who gives you that ability?

Lastly, why not use "sin offering" in every place that "sin" occurs?

BTW, here is #264(Verb form) which is mentioned above as an equivalent.
G264
ἁμαρτάνω
hamartanō
Thayer Definition:
1) to be without a share in
2) to miss the mark
3) to err, be mistaken
4) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
5) to wander from the law of God, violate God’s law, sin
Part of Speech: [b]verb[/b]

Still though, no mention of "sin offering", and it is not even the word used in 2 Corinthians 5:21 anyway.

L
Logic

roaringlamb wrote:
No, I make the law reasonable and as a Just standard for us to be under.
and by doing so, remove the wrath that the Law should bring AND the joy in Christ's work for us.
[b]Romans 4:15[/b] [color=990000]because the law works wrath:[/color]
The law only brings wrath if it is already transgressed.

You will never know the fullness of Christ's work until you hear the fullness of the wrath that is in the Law.
I do not take the wrath away from the law, when it is transgressed.
In fact, I make it reasonable.
If one can not do a command (as he is not the one who made himself incapable) he is exempt from the command.
However, if one is able to and does not obey, then he is truly condemned.

It reasonable by proving that it is able to be kept.
The reason why the law has wrath is because it is able to be kept. If it wasn't, then there would be no wrath, for there is no wrath in an un-obeyable command.


You're the one who makes the law to be unreasonable and an unjust standard.
Not at all
Yes you do. You say that the law is impossible to obey; It is unreasonable to command that which is impossible.

I am basically showing that the Law DEMANDS perfection ALL the time.
the Law DEMANDS perfection ALL the time only until you first break it, then it DEMANDS justice from being broken, not obedience.

Therefore, we need that perfection ALL the time
Yes, you are correct, only after justice to the law has been made by the Atonement.
After that, it's called love of God. If you love Him, keep His commandments: obedience.

And it is not in us or from us, and never will be.
Then it must not be demanded of us!

I am allowing the Law to do what God has desired it to do
No, you're making it to be ridiculous; demanding the impossible & condemning for not doing the impossible.
This is unreasonable & not aligned with reality.

(The law is to) drive me to Christ as my ONLY hope for acceptance and righteousness.
The law was added because of transgressions, it exists for the reason of making unlawful affections to be evidently unlawful.
In other words, the law exists so that our unlawful affections would be evidently more wicked in contrast to the specific commands of the law.
The purpose of the law is to teach one of the character of the Lawgiver also to guide us and to guard us while directing us to mercy of the Lawgiver, (Romans 7:13, Galatians 3:19,24)

The law is not founded in mere randomness, but in the Personhood of God, it is a representation of who He is and a part of the foundation of reality

However, it is possible to be kept perfectly & consistently. Jesus proved it so.

I also wanted to know how you determine the word "sin" in 2 Corinthians 5:21 to mean "sin offering".
It is the lonely way which makes any sense.
One must always interpret the Scriptures according to reality, which you are not doing.
Jesus (or anyone for that matter) can not become a transgressing [sin] as you say.
It is impossible; not only that, it makes no sense at all.

Also if that is the case, how do you get the freedom to make it mean something it doesn't mean
Assuming it doesn’t mean that.

and how do you differentiate when and how does it change?
Context.
Jesus was the [b]Lamb of God[/b] to be offered for our sins.
Notice that "sin offering" is not mentioned as a definition for the word.
Doesn’t matter.

This word appears in 151 verses in the NT, and NEVER means "sin offering". There are 174 times this word appears in the NT, and never is used for "sin offering".

So again, I ask you to please tell me how you can make a word mean something it doesn't mean anywhere else

Assuming it doesn’t mean "sin offering".

and who gives you that ability?
God. He gives us the ability to make sense and to find sense from what we read.

Lastly, why not use "sin offering" in every place that "sin" occurs?
Because that would not make any sense.

Still though, no mention of "sin offering", and it is not even the word used in 2 Corinthians 5:21 anyway.
Who cares?
Your saying that Jesus actually became a literal transgression.
That is NONSENSE!!!!
Why not interpret the verse to make sense instead of something which is not in line with reality?

The problem you have is you definition of sin.

S
sermonindex

I was reading Philippians this morning:

3:8-9
"For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him,

not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law,

but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith"

Marvelous! What joy that my righteousness is not based on my performance, rather through faith in Christ! He is my righteousness!

Amen.

L
Logic

ccrider wrote:
Philippians 3:8-9 "For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith"

Marvelous! What joy that my righteousness is not based on my performance, rather through faith in Christ! He is my righteousness!

Amen!!!

But what's the relevence to this thread?

B
bdcutler

Marvelous! What joy that my righteousness is not based on my performance, rather through faith in Christ! He is my righteousness!

Amen!

It is amazing to me how carnally minded we can be sometimes. Paul writes that to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life in Christ. (Romans 8:5-7) Why is it that we so often find ourselves minding the flesh (our natural human abilities), when this is death? The gospel is very simple: repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). Notice, that it's not repentance [i]from sin[/i], but repentance [i]toward God[/i]. What good does it do if I command to turn from sin, if I don't command to turn toward God? None at all, for only God, through Jesus Christ and His Cross, can deliver from sin (Romans 6). The religious Jew believes in the one true God, and has followed righteousness (and indeed believes himself to be righteous) all his life, and has lived a more righteous life than many here, but what good will it do him on judgment day, when he knows in his heart that the law says "do not covet" and if he is a transgressor of part of the law then he is a transgressor of all of it? Why do we so easily fall from grace, thinking that we are made perfect in the flesh (Galatians 3:1-3)?

If I say to a man, turn away from the south, but I do not instruct him where to turn to, how is he to know where to turn to? But, if I say, turn to the North, it doesn't matter if he is looking south or north by northeast, he must turn away from where he is and set is sight to true north. So it is with us. It doesn't matter if we have literally broken all of God's commandments or only one, we must turn to God, stop trusting in ourselves, our own efforts, our own ability (our flesh), and trust, depend, and fully rely on Jesus Christ, the One who overcame the world, death, and sin, who's Spirit will indwell those who honestly cry out to Him in true repentance, and deliver from sin and death.

And for those who say that Christ's command to the sick to "be healed" is somehow different from His command to "sin no more", don't you know that sin and sickness are closely tied together? I think a study of healing in the bible is in order, the bible speaks of healing in regards to sin just as much as sickness. (Jeremiah 14:19-22, 30:13-17, I could go on).

And as for the law, don't you know what is written how that the Lord did not command them about sacrifices and offerings, but only commanded them to obey his voice? (Jeremiah 7:21-26) God isn't interested in what you can give Him. He's not interested in your "righteousness." He's interested in you listening to Him, and obeying His voice! Be a son, and not a servant. The servant is only interested in doing the letter of what the master commanded. The son is interested in genuinely knowing the Father, and obeying His voice.

S
sermonindex

Imputed righteousness is really simple. If we forsake our sins and trust in Christ, God will pardon us of all our past sins and treat us as if we had never sinned. He will impute us, or consider us, as righteous, as if we never sinned at all.

Imputed righteousness is conditional upon our repentance from sin and our faith in Jesus Christ. If we do not make the free will choice or decision to abandon our sins and to trust in the suffering and death of Christ (to believe that His atonement has made mercy available), then God will not pardon us and treat us as righteous.

If we remain carnally minded (selfish or seeking to gratiy our flesh) instead of choosing to change our mind about sinning (repentance) then we are not going to be pardoned and treated as righteous (imputed righteous).

S
sermonindex

"But what's the relevence to this thread?" logic

I said "amen" and you said "amen". Why ask the question then of relevance? I'm not going there and start another rabbit trail. That's one question that can be very subjective.

R
roaringlamb

If one can not do a command (as he is not the one who made himself incapable) he is exempt from the command.

So was Israel exempt from the command to have no other gods before them after they time after time PROVED that they were incapable of keeping it?

After all, they showed by their actions that they COULD NOT keep the righteous requirement of just that ONE commandment. So does God grant a pardon because they can't keep it?

However, if one is able to and does not obey, then he is truly condemned.

This assumes that man is morally able to keep ALL of God's commands PERFECTLY ALL THE TIME.

But it is true that the broken Law brings condemnation and estrangement from God.

The purpose of the law is to teach one of the character of the Lawgiver also to guide us and to guard us while directing us to mercy of the Lawgiver, (Romans 7:13, Galatians 3:19,24)

I find it interesting that you would quote Galatians 3 to back your point as it states the opposite(if you read the whole chapter).

Verse 10 "For all who rely on works of the law are under a [b]curse[/b]; for it is written, [b]“Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”[/b]

Now Biblically, all of us are under a curse because we do not abide by ALL the things written in the Book of the Law" because each of us tries to "justify" him or herself by their own works prior to conversion, and also as James says, to break one command is to break ALL of them.

Verse 11 Now it is evident that [b]no one is justified before God by the law[/b], for “The righteous shall live by faith.”(or more literally, "the one who by faith is righteous shall live")

So the Law cannot provide "justification" or righteousness as they are interchangeable words.

Man is helpless as he is under a curse BECAUSE he CANNOT keep the Law and do ALL of it(vs.12). Which leads Paul to the next point-

Verse 13 Christ redeemed us [b]from the curse[/b] of the law [b]by becoming a curse for us[/b]

Christ Himself was treated as the cursed one, in the place of the cursed one to redeem the cursed one who had rested in their supposed righteousness through Law keeping. Funny how this is strikingly similar to the passage in 2 Corinthians 5:21!

However, it is possible to be kept perfectly & consistently. Jesus proved it so.

So then why do you need Jesus? If you can do it, then you do not need God's grace(you may give lip service to your need of it, but you have already stated that you don't sin).

Consider carefully the following verse-
Galatians 2:21 ESV "I do not nullify the grace of God, for [b]if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.[/b]"

So something was done in Christ's death that made a righteousness that was greater than Law keeping, but it must be put to the account of a person in order for it to be of value.

It is the only way which makes any sense. One must always interpret the Scriptures according to reality, which you are not doing. Jesus (or anyone for that matter) can not become a transgressing [sin] as you say.

Making sense of what we think the Scriptures say is not our place.

One must interpret Scripture with the help of the original languages and with the understanding that God is the Author and He has the right to state things that are above our intellect or challenge us. You say that God gave you the right to change what a word means or does not mean, which puts you above even the authors of Scripture themselves! Be careful friend!

And again, I am not saying that Christ became a "transgressing" as the word is a noun there, and you refuse to see that. It is not a verb no matter how much you try to make it one, and the word "hamartian" is a noun used through the NT as I have previously shown.

Jesus was the Lamb of God to be offered for our sins

I assume you are alluding to this verse-
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

Interesting, "sin" here is a noun. So is He taking away the sin-offering of the world?

I wonder too, if Paul should have said that we are under the Law of Sin-offering instead of the Law of sin? Too bad you weren't around back then to correct him.

Doesn’t matter. Who cares?

If you suppose your position to be correct, you had better come up with better thoughts than this.

To say "who cares" when confronted with the Greek text, is to basically say, "My view is right no matter it says!" or "don't confuse me with the facts".

I am glad that before all who have been reading this, they can see that at least one of us cares about Scriptural integrity and sound exegesis of the text. Thank you for proving my point.

The problem you have is you definition of sin.

According to John, sin is the breaking of God's Law(1 John 3:4), so which of us has a wrong view of sin?

You have told me that "coveting"(in the negative sense) is not sin, yet Paul says in Colossians 3:5 that covetousness is idolatry and last I looked, idolatry is sin.

R
roaringlamb

If we remain carnally minded (selfish or seeking to gratiy our flesh) instead of choosing to change our mind about sinning (repentance) then we are not going to be pardoned and treated as righteous (imputed righteous).

So when does this perfect mind come so we can be forgiven?

We are treated as righteous even when we sin! there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, and since NOTHING in ALL of creation can separate me from the love of God in Christ, then neither can my sin since it has been dealt with, and I have been give a righteousness that EXCEEDS the Law: Christ Himself!

Abraham was justified by faith, and yet he lied about his wife TWICE, and we never see any mention of his repentance, nor was the Covenant broken by his sin. Yet Abraham is the father of faith.

If one is truly born again, they have passed from death to life and God doesn't take away that life, but rather nourishes it and grows it, which is sanctification.

The way you and logic present God is like some kind of spastic dictator who gives and takes away, and gives and takes away. You have no promise of assurance UNLESS you are doing everything right(not sinning), so you minimize the Law to make it "easy" to be kept.

I'm sorry, but that is exactly what the Pharisees did, they even added to it their own interpretations so it was able to be kept, or so they could have their own self-righteousness.

S
sermonindex

You are saying that we are saved while we are sinning?

Which sin can we continue in and still be saved? Adultery? Murder? Lying? Stealing?

If I am witnessing to a drug dealer in the inner city, can I tell him that he can continue to sell drugs as long as he believes in Jesus? Should I tell him that only non-Christian drug dealers go to hell, but Christian drug dealers go to Heaven? That there is no condemnation for Christian drug dealers?

Do we need to give up any sin to be forgiven? Some sin? All sin?? If only some sins, which ones? Which sins can we choose to continue in?

S
sermonindex

"Do we need to give up any sin to be forgiven? Some sin? All sin?? If only some sins, which ones? Which sins can we choose to continue in?"true---

Are you saying then that we are ONLY saved by observing the law and that if we don't observe it perfectly, we are not saved???

R
roaringlamb

Which sin can we continue in and still be saved? Adultery? Murder? Lying? Stealing?

First of all, we are not saved by giving up sin, we are saved by grace through faith for the sake of Christ and His work for us.

Since God gives us the new birth and seals us with the Holy Spirit, it would be impossible for that sealing to be undone.

If I am witnessing to a drug dealer in the inner city, can I tell him that he can continue to sell drugs as long as he believes in Jesus?

No, because you are dealing with two wrong presuppositions to begin with.

First, if you are witnessing to him, you must witness of Christ and His person and work(but this is limited as you deny imputation, so I don't really know what you would tell him anyway).

Second, IF he is truly reborn, the Holy Spirit will convict him of sin and also affect the change that needs to be brought about. The change will be powerful as God has brought it about and it has not been a mere moralistic change.

Do we need to give up any sin to be forgiven? Some sin? All sin?? If only some sins, which ones? Which sins can we choose to continue in?

Again, we are not forgiven by what we give up! We are forgiven by believing something.

A true believer will STRUGGLE with sin until the day they are glorified as the true Christian life is one of daily repentance and growth in grace.

Sin will remain in us until he day we leave these bodies. That is why the hope of the resurrection from the dead is so wonderful; to be freed from death, sin, and to be with Christ who we have longed to see while here on Earth.

You have made the Gospel into something it is not. The Gospel is not, "give up this sin and that sin, and you can be forgiven!"

It is however, "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and has risen. He is Lord, He is coming back!"

As I have tried to get you to see, the Gospel is news to be declared, not rules to follow.

Even the Greek word for "gospel" has the root of "angelos" or "herald" and it is for good reason.

R
roaringlamb

I wanted to point out that the idea of "imputation" is still with us even today.

For example when a corporation is going poorly, the "guilt" is usually put on(imputed to) the CEO, and they are "sacrificed" for the betterment of the corporation.

In sports, we see that a team is doing poorly, and either the GM or certain players are "imputed" the guilt for the failures and then "sacrificed"(traded or fired).

So it's(imputation) not some foreign "unreality", but rather something that is really sensible and glorious.

B
bdcutler

roaringlamb wrote:

You have told me that "coveting"(in the negative sense) is not sin, yet Paul says in Colossians 3:5 that covetousness is idolatry and last I looked, idolatry is sin.

Not only is it sin according to Paul, it's the tenth commandment.

S
sermonindex

The Gospel is not good news at all if it means God gives us a license to sin, or that we can still sin every day but be under God's mercy and grace instead of His wrath.

The Gospel is not good news at all if it does not offer us present and full deliverance from sinning!

The Christian life is not a life of sin, repent, sin, repent, sin. Nor is it a life of sin sin sin. The Christian life is a life of obedience, of loving and following Jesus, of keeping His commandments.

B
bdcutler

The Gospel is not good news at all if it means God gives us a license to sin, or that we can still sin every day but be under God's mercy and grace instead of His wrath.

I challenge you to find anybody on this forum who would disagree with you here. I didn't hear anybody here talk about a license to sin. But this is the same accusation some brought against Paul (Romans 3:8). Paul was simply preaching salvation [i]from[/i] sin and death [i]through[/i] faith and not works. Don't be carnally minded and trust in the arm of the flesh, be spiritually minded an trust in the Overcomer, Jesus Christ. I honestly believe that is what others are trying to argue here.

B
bdcutler

A true believer will STRUGGLE with sin until the day they are glorified as the true Christian life is one of daily repentance and growth in grace. Sin will remain in us until he day we leave these bodies. That is why the hope of the resurrection from the dead is so wonderful; to be freed from death, sin, and to be with Christ who we have longed to see while here on Earth.

I do have one objection to make here, roaringlamb. I don't believe that the believer is any longer subject to sin. Does that mean he'll be perfected in this earthly body? No, but the picture I see Paul painted of the Cross of Christ (esp. in Romans and Galatians) is that the believer is more than just forgiven, they are set free from the power of sin and death. Certainly, you confess this is true in the resurrection (and it will be) but I believe that God calls us into this freedom even now on this earth.

[Edit: On second reading, I think I may have misread you the first time, where I felt you were saying that the believer will not see God deliver them from particular sins in their life. After reading more posts I believe you're intention is that God is continually purging and cleansing those who believe and do not resist Him, bringing them from glory to glory, and will continue to do so until the resurrection.]

R
roaringlamb

The Gospel is not good news at all if it means God gives us a license to sin

You're presenting the same argument that Paul anticipated from the Roman Church(not RCC) presenting after Romans 5, then he launched into Romans 6.

I'm sure you're also aware of the fact that the Church at Corinth was a moral disaster, yet Paul addresses them as "saints" and "brothers".

I didn't ever say that there was a license, as a matter of fact, if the Holy Spirit is indwelling someone, they will be very uncomfortable with sin.

we can still sin every day but be under God's mercy and grace instead of His wrath.

What you and logic BOTH fail to see or admit is that we sin ALL the time. You BOTH limit sin to only outward actions, but never get into the heart and see how vile it is.

The Gospel is not good news at all if it does not offer us present and full deliverance from sinning!

So how are YOU doing with this?

Again, give way to the Law, admit that you have idols(we all do). See that God justifies the UNGODLY, and then begins the process of sanctification.

Did you stop sinning [i]so that[/i] Christ would love you? That is not true faith at all, but instead slavish fear.

A slave fears for breaking the master's wishes, but a child is NEVER cast out of the house even though he may be punished for his disobedience. There is a wonderful line from an old hymn that sums it up very well, "to see the Law by Christ fulfilled and hear His pardoning voice, changes a slave into a child and duty into choice."

Again I ask you, when did you stop sinning? If you haven't,then according to your own view, you are not saved, and under God's wrath.

BTW, the Gospel is good news, and it is not "stop sinning so God will love you!" That is how the Pharisees thought it was, they believed that God had to accept them because they kept ALL the rules and regulations. Yet Christ told them that they were going to see prostitutes and tax collectors come into the Kingdom while they(the Pharisees) would be cast out.

The Christian life is not a life of sin, repent, sin, repent, sin.

From day one of the new birth, a true Christian will be repenting daily of sins of both commission and omission.

I think you should look at one of the corporate confessions from both the Anglican and Lutheran liturgies:
[i]""we confess that we are captive to sin and cannot free ourselves. [b]We have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves.[/b] For the sake of your Son, Jesus Christ, have mercy on us. Forgive us, renew us, and lead us, so that we may delight in your will and walk in your ways, to the glory of your holy name. Amen."[/i]

That gets done every week, then you get to hear the Good News that for the sake of Christ your sins are forgiven!

Of course there are those who will abuse grace, but that is where you must ask if they are truly regenerate. If there is no struggle with sin, they probably are not.

But the ones who come in weak and burdened by their sin are so BECAUSE they have the Holy Spirit convicting them and leading them to repentance. Those are the one s who get beat on by theology like yours, and who end up either self-righteous or despairing of being saved at all.

Remember friend, it is not our place to convict people, and if we would be like Jesus, we would see that to the downtrodden and weary, He was gentle(a bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not quench). But the self-righteous did not receive this side of Christ, rather they received words of judgment and woes.

R
roaringlamb

I don't believe that the believer is any longer subject to sin.

I absolutely agree with this. We cannot be as we are new people with new desires. BUT this does not mean that there suddenly comes a point where I never sin(not saying you're saying this).

The greatest catalyst for change is to see what Christ has done in loving us while we were sinners, and ungodly and then from love seek to please Him [i]because[/i] we are accepted by Him completely.

The true Gospel will always be "crucified" between the two criminals of legalism and antinomianism.

The legalist will say it's "easy believism" and the antinomian will say it is "too narrow".

But that is when you know you're preaching the true Gospel, just like Paul did.

B
bdcutler

I absolutely agree with this. We cannot be as we are new people with new desires. BUT this does not mean that there suddenly comes a point where I never sin(not saying you're saying this).

Yes, I misunderstood you the first time I read your comment. When I came back the second time, I read your comment in context of your recent response to truefaithsav (and made a note). I agree the true gospel is a balance, if only because we humans tend to head to one extreme or another.


What God really wants from us is to be led of His Spirit in all righteousness, heeding to Him when He convicts and chastens us; I hope and pray Logic, truefaithsav, you, and others here could agree on this one point!

S
sermonindex

By the influence of the Holy Spirit, and the grace of God, can we go one moment without sinning? Can we be completely free from sin, in this life, by the help of God, even for a second?

J
jimp

hi, why argue about what Jesus already conquered on the Cross.if you or i could have lived sinless He would not had to endure the cross.the first sin makes you a sinner and if you are guilty of one you are guilty of all. when He said it is finished the sin of man had been dealt with. if you are saved and have laid down your life at the alter of sacrifice... repentance,presnting your bodies as living sacrifices[dead]Gal2:20 dead men have then already paid the wages of sin and like Jesus was raised from the dead so we salk in newness of life,going on to walking in the Spirit.do we than have freedom to sin?yes but sin will surely find you out quickly because it is apposed to the life in you and yoou will pay severeprices in the flesh for every sin.jimp

S
sermonindex

We all could have obeyed God, but none of us did obey God, therefore Jesus had to die for us.

After we sinned, we still could have obeyed God, but our obedience could not atone for our sins, thereore Jesus had to die for us.

Now those that forsake their sins will find mercy through Jesus Christ.

Do we have freedom to sin? Sure. We have a free will. A Christian can backslide and go to hell if he chooses to.

Could we live free from sin? Yes, we have both free will and the grace of God. We can go the rest of our lives without sinning, to the glory of God!

L
Logic

roaringlamb wrote:
If one can not do a command (as he is not the one who made himself incapable) he is exempt from the command.
So was Israel exempt from the command to have no other gods before them after they time after time PROVED that they were incapable of keeping it?
They never PROVED that they were incapable of keeping it.
They just never chose to keep it when they were able to.

After all, they After all, they showed by their actions that they COULD NOT keep the righteous requirement of just that ONE commandment. the righteous requirement of just that ONE commandment.
No, they After all, they showed by their actions that they WOULD NOT keep the righteous requirement of just that ONE commandment.

So does God grant a pardon because they can't keep it?
No, they deserve condemnation because of disobedience, not because of disability; God grants a pardon because He loves them.

However, if one is able to and does not obey, then he is truly condemned
This assumes that man is morally able to keep ALL of God's commands PERFECTLY ALL THE TIME.
No assumption.
We could if we [b]chose[/b] to keep ALL of God's commands PERFECTLY ALL THE TIME.

Choice implies option. The option is always to obey or not to.
You say we have no option to obey.
IF we have no option, we are not condemned for disobedience but of necessity.

But it is true that the broken Law brings condemnation and estrangement from God.
How does God condemn because of involuntarily braking His Law?
Condemnation is only justified when the will is involved.

I find it interesting that you would quote Galatians 3 to back your point as it states the opposite(if you read the whole chapter).
No it doesn't.
Galatians is according to an already broken the law, therefore, we are in the need of grace.

[b]Gal 3:21[/b] [color=990000]Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life,[/color] (when it was already broken) [color=990000]verily righteousness should have been by the law.[/color]
[b]Gal 3:22a[/b] [color=990000]But the scripture embraced all under common subjection to be all under sin,[/color] Because they all broke the law when they could have kept it) [color=990000]so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.[/color]
[b]Gal 3:23[/b] [color=990000]But before the coming of faith, we were guarded under Law, having been embraced in that common subjection to direct us to the faith that is being revealed.[/color]
The Law proves us to have chosen to sin already, and convicts us of it.
The law directs us to faith in Christ by condemnation because we already broke the law.
The law convicts us of our willful sin and makes us run to the One Who will forgive us.
He is our sin offering.

Verse 10 "For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”
This is because we already broke the law.

Verse 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”(or more literally, "the one who by faith is righteous shall live")
This is because we already broke the law.

So the Law cannot provide "justification" or righteousness as they are interchangeable words.
because we already broke the law.

However, since sin is the transgression of the law, if one never brakes the law, then their will be no condemnation; no sin, no condemnation.

Man is helpless as he is under a curse BECAUSE he CANNOT keep the Law and do ALL of it(vs.12). Which leads Paul to the next point-
We can and are supposed keep the law from the beginning.


However, it is possible to be kept perfectly & consistently. Jesus proved it so.
So then why do you need Jesus?
Because we broke the law when we could have kept it; we need forgiven.

you may give lip service to your need of it, but you have already stated that you don't sin
No, I’ve stated that I have sinned, but We don't have to.
Sinse we don't have to, we may never sin again, if we always choose so.

Do you even read my posts to understand or do you only read them to argue?

Consider carefully the following verse-
Galatians 2:21 ESV "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose."
That is since we already broke the law.
Christ died for those who need forgiveness and to bring us back to a right relationship with the Father.
However, if one never has broken the law, then he would not need Jesus to have died for Him; he would only need Jesus as LORD, not Saviour.


It is the only way which makes any sense. One must always interpret the Scriptures according to reality, which you are not doing. Jesus (or anyone for that matter) can not become a transgressing [sin] as you say.
Making sense of what we think the Scriptures say is not our place.
What?

One must interpret Scripture with the help of the original languages
Wrong.
No one needs the original languages.

One must interpret Scripture with prayer and with the co-texts along with reality as the guide.
If the scripture can not be interpreted to make any sense, look for a way to interpret it which makes sense.
If the interpretation makes God out to be sadistic & tyrannical. then one must interpret it another way.

and with the understanding that God is the Author and He has the right to state things that are above our intellect or challenge us.
Yes, God is the Author, but never beyond our intellect.
Communication is always on an even level for both parties.

You have a very dangerous way of interpreting Scripture.
You give the unbelievers "bullets" for their disbelief and hatred for God by making God someone to be hated.
I've witnessed to unbelievers & some have the same theology as you, which is one reason they hate Him.

You say that God gave you the right to change what a word means or does not mean,
No, I don't say that. I only make sense of what I read.
You read it as face value and make it nonsense.
Jesus became a (noun) transgression.
Your interpretation does not make any sense & is unrealistic.
No person (Jesus included) can be transgression (noun)

I say that Jesus became a sin (noun) offering.
My interpretation fits with reality and the context of Scripture; Jesus was the Lamb of God to be an offering.

which puts you above even the authors of Scripture themselves! Be careful friend!
No, I understand the Author, I understand God (and Paul or whoever is writing).
You be carful not to make God some one to be hated and give the unbelievers more reason not to come to Him.

And again, I am not saying that Christ became a "transgressing" as the word is a noun there, and you refuse to see that.
I'm not refusing to see that, I agree, the word "sin" (transgressing) is a noun.
No person (Jesus included) can be transgression (noun).

It is not a verb no matter how much you try to make it one, and the word "hamartian" is a noun used through the NT as I have previously shown.
I'm not trying to make it a verb.
The noun is object of the verb.

[b]Verb:[/b] to sin
[b]Noun:[/b] The sin which was done
Your making Jesus the to be the sins of the World which were done.


Jesus was the Lamb of God to be offered for our sins
I assume you are alluding to this verse-
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
No, just the fact that Jesus is the Lamb of God.
"Behold, the (One who is the sin offering) of God, who takes away the sin (noun) of the world!"

Interesting, "sin" here is a noun. So is He taking away the sin-offering of the world?
Don't be ridiculous.
The Lamb is a sin offering.
How does Jesus take away the sin of the world?
By being a sin offering.

I wonder too, if Paul should have said that we are under the Law of Sin-offering instead of the Law of sin? Too bad you weren't around back then to correct him.
I wonder too, if Paul would have made God out to be ridiculous, would he have so many converts.


Doesn’t matter. Who cares?
If you suppose your position to be correct, you had better come up with better thoughts than this.
The reason why I said, that it doesn’t matter & who cares, is because you don't understand what I'm saying and your point has no relevance.
Try understanding me for once.


The problem you have is you definition of sin.
According to John, sin is the breaking of God's Law(1 John 3:4), so which of us has a wrong view of sin?
You.
You're saying that we don't have any choice in the matter concerning sin; we have no choice to not sin.

I say that sin is always a choice, we always have an option to sin or not.
If we don't, then there is no justifiable condemnation.
If there is no choice in the matter, we are no rebelling or being disobedient, but only doing what we must do.
We are being condemned for something we are not guilty of.

You have told me that "coveting"(in the negative sense) is not sin, yet Paul says in Colossians 3:5 that covetousness is idolatry and last I looked, idolatry is sin.
So, I am sinning when I covet the brethren’s prayers.
I am sinning when I covet all that God has for me.
I idolize God and I want all that my Idol will give me.
However, I do not make a graven image of my Idol.

If that this is a sin, I will continue in that sin and flaunt it proudly.

L
Logic

roaringlamb wrote:

For example when a corporation is going poorly, the "guilt" is usually [b]put on[/b](imputed to) the CEO, and they are "sacrificed" for the betterment of the corporation.

Why are you still making imputation toi ba a transference?
It is not.
It is a "deeming", a reckoning.

You can't "put on" something deemed.

Our faith is deemed as rightousness, not transfered as rightousness.

R
roaringlamb

So let's get back to the 2 Corinthians 5:21 passage again.

The second half of the verse states that we are made "the righteousness of God in Him".

So this is what I find harder to grasp; the fact that God for the sake of Christ sees me as righteous(blameless).

Of course, I am not really righteous in and of myself, but God sees me as righteous, and as if I had fulfilled ALL He has required, because Christ's work has been put to my account. He will work through the rest of my life to conform me to the image of Christ(sanctification).

That is why the only way to interpret the passage is that Christ was made sin for us. Of course He was not sinful any more than I am truly righteous in and of myself.

The righteousness of God is what is needed to stand before Him. That is why the only way to have it, is to receive it from Him.

Without imputation, Christ may have died to forgive your sins, but you cannot be righteous before God, unless you perfectly keep His requirements all the time, and your assurance comes from whether you are keeping the Law or not.

There must be a transfer of my guilt to the offering and of His righteousness to me so that I may come to God freely and openly as a Father.

Justification is the legal, one time declaration by God that I am righteous. I am cleared from all my guilt because someone has fulfilled the requirements in my place and credited that to me.

That is the Gospel,anything short of that is not the Gospel, no matter who says so!

Oh yeah, all those comments about people hating God, didn't Paul say something about that in Romans 1, and to be honest, I really don't know what you would have to tell anyone?

"Keep the commandments or you will not be saved!"

That seems to be your message, and it isn't the Gospel.

R
roaringlamb

I read this last night and thought it was good for this discussion(from Spurgeon):

[i]“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” Mark 16:16

[b]Mr. MacDonald asked the inhabitants of the island of St. Kilda how a man must be saved. An old man replied, “We shall be saved if we repent, and forsake our sins, and turn to God.” “Yes,” said a middle-aged female, “and with a true heart too.” “Aye,” rejoined a third, “and with prayer”; and, added a fourth, “It must be the prayer of the heart.” “And we must be diligent too,” said a fifth, “in keeping the commandments.” Thus, each having contributed his mite, feeling that a very decent creed had been made up, they all looked and listened for the preacher’s approbation, but they had aroused his deepest pity. The carnal mind always maps out for itself a way in which self can work and become great, but the Lord’s way is quite the reverse.[/b] Believing and being baptized are no matters of merit to be gloried in—they are so simple that boasting is excluded, and free grace bears the palm. It may be that the reader is unsaved—what is the reason? Do you think the way of salvation as laid down in the text to be dubious? How can that be when God has pledged his own word for its certainty? Do you think it too easy? Why, then, do you not attend to it? Its ease leaves those without excuse who neglect it. To believe is simply to trust, to depend, to rely upon Christ Jesus. To be baptized is to submit to the ordinance which our Lord fulfilled at Jordan, to which the converted ones submitted at Pentecost, to which the jailer yielded obedience the very night of his conversion. The outward sign saves not, but it sets forth to us our death, burial, and resurrection with Jesus, and, like the Lord’s Supper, is not to be neglected. Reader, do you believe in Jesus? Then, dear friend, dismiss your fears, you shall be saved. Are you still an unbeliever, then remember there is but one door, and if you will not enter by it you will perish in your sins.[/i]

S
sermonindex

the fact that God for the sake of Christ sees me as righteous(blameless).

Of course, I am not really righteous in and of myself, but God sees me as righteous

God is omniscient. If you are sinful, God see's it. God see's reality perfectly fine. Jesus Christ did not blind God the Father. Jesus Christ did not offer us some scheme of imputed righteousness to deceive God, making Him think we are righteous when we are not, or making Him look upon us when we are sinful and somehow see "righteousness" as a camouflage.

This was in the original post:

It is not that God see's us as righteous while we are unrighteous. Otherwise God is not omniscient.

It is that God treats us as righteous (as if we had never sinned) even though we have been unrighteous (we have sinned). That is what real forgiveness is! When God does not treat us according to our sins!

[b][u]This was in the original post:[/u][/b]

When a person is imputed righteous God considers them righteous and governmentally treats them as righteous. It is not that the righteousness of Christ is transferred to them. [b][u]To say that we need the perfect obedience that Christ rendered to the law to be transferred to our account in order to be justified is to say that we are in fact justified by the works of the law[/u][/b]. Christ needed to perfectly obey the law in order to be a spotless sacrifice and qualify as a sin offering (Exo. 12:5; 2 Cor. 5:21; Php. 2:8), but justification is by Christ’s blood (Rom. 5:9) and by faith (Rom. 3:28; 5:1; Gal 3:24), but not at all by the works of the law (Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:20; 3:28; Gal. 2:16; 3:11; 5:4). Christ was under obligation to obey the law of love for Himself (Matt. 5:17; Gal. 4:4), just as God is under obligation to His own conscience (Gen. 3:22; 18:25; Job 34:10, 12), so Christ’s obedience to the law cannot be a work of supererogation, there can be no “extra” obedience to be transferred to another. So if Christ was under obligation to the law, His obedience to the law cannot be transferred to another. And if Christ was not under obligation to the law, there would be no obedience to be transferred. It was not His obedience to the law, but His suffering on the cross, which is credited to us. He suffered and died for us and His suffering was a work of supererogation since He was not obligated to do it. That is the means of justification.

[b][u]Some have supposed that when God looks upon a Christian who is sinning that God doesn’t see the Christian sinning but “see’s the righteousness of Christ” instead[/u][/b]. But God clearly saw the bad works of the Christians in Revelations (Rev 2:2, 2:9; 2:13; 2:19; 3:1; 3:8; 3:15), not “the righteousness of Christ”. Imputed righteousness is not some scheme that fools or blinds God so that He no longer knows reality as it is, or no longer see’s individuals as they are. That would mean God is no longer omniscient. Whenever anyone is in sin, our omniscient God sees it clearly and perfectly (Prov. 15:3; Eze. 8:12; 9:9; Jer. 32:19; Mal. 2:17; Heb. 4:13).

But let it be clear that forgiveness, justification, or imputed righteousness is conditional upon an attitude of heart repentance (Isa. 55:7; Eze. 18:32; Mk. 1:4; Lk. 13:3; 13:5; 24:47) and faith from the heart (Jn. 3:18; Acts 16:31; Rom. 10:9; Eph. 2:8-9). And final salvation is ultimately conditional upon perseverance unto the end (Matt. 10:22; 24:13; Mk. 13:13; Acts 13:43; Acts 14:22; Heb. 3:6; 3:14; 2 Pet. 2:20). Repentance is when a person changes their mind about sinning and makes up their mind to sin no more (Isa. 1:16; 55:7; Jn. 5:14; 8:11; 1 Cor. 15:34; Eph. 4:22-28), and faith is the hearts embrace and obedience to the truth (Lk. 24:25; Acts 8:37; 15:9; 26:18; Rom. 10:10; 1 Pet. 1:22). [b][u]The notion of being righteous in our position but unrighteous in our practice is absolutely contrary to scripture (1 Jn. 3:7; 3:10), and it over looks the conditions of forgiveness and the nature of saving faith.[/u][/b] Such a concept is false doctrine and damnable heresy (2 Pet. 2:1; Jude 1:4-5). Jesus is the author of salvation to all them that obey Him (Heb. 5:9), the Gospel must be obeyed (Rom. 2:8; 6:17; 10:16; Gal. 3:1; 5:7; 2 Thes. 1:8; 1 Pet. 4:17). Christians are those who keep God’s commandments (1 Jn. 2:3; 3:22; 5:2-3). Only those who keep God’s commandments will enter through the gates into the Heaven (Matt. 7:21; 19:17; 25:21, 23, 46; Lk. 10:28; Heb. 12:14; Rev. 22:14), while all sinners will be left outside the Holy City (Matt. 7:23; Lk. 13:27; Rev. 22:15).

C
ceedub

Thus, each having contributed his mite, feeling that a very decent creed had been made up, they all looked and listened for the preacher’s approbation, but they had aroused his deepest pity. The carnal mind always maps out for itself a way in which self can work and become great, but the Lord’s way is quite the reverse.

Amen.

J
jimp

hi, when I see the blood I will passover you is the perfect picture;as it is meant to be...the death angel never looked inside to see if there were egyptian firstborn in the house where the blood was applied.when the Father sees the blood applied which our advocate will surely point out then He will passover our sinful yet beieving condition.jimp

S
sermonindex

sinful yet beieving

If our faith does not change our moral character, how is our faith any better or different than the faith of devils?

The Bible talks about being sanctified by faith, about a faith that overcomes the world, about a faith that purifies the heart. Have you that life changing faith?

If our faith is not life changing faith, our faith is not saving faith.

R
roaringlamb

If our faith does not change our moral character, how is our faith any better or different than the faith of devils?

Because the devils want nothing to do with Christ and His righteousness. They see no need to be saved.

The Pharisees believed in God, yet Christ was quick to tell them, "you are of your father the devil" because they wanted nothing to do with Christ. Instead they wanted their own self-righteous ways to somehow be the reason God accepted them(even though they were breaking the Law by seeking to murder Christ).

The Bible talks about being sanctified by faith, about a faith that overcomes the world, about a faith that purifies the heart. Have you that life changing faith?

Sanctified mean "set apart", and we are set apart once we are placed in Christ.

Our faith does overcome the world and its ways, we don't live like the world any longer(e.g. self justification and denial of God's Christ).

And yes my heart has been purified by the same faith that was part of the new birth.

If our faith is not life changing faith, our faith is not saving faith.

Yes and no. because you are adding onto faith things that are not added in Scripture.

Complete obedience is not faith, nor is it the proof of faith. There are many people who can keep the Law and are not saved. So their life is "changed", but they are lost because they rest in their "goodness".

Faith is as valid as what it is put in. So if I have faith that Christ died for me, then it is true faith. That's it, true faith repents of its ability to do what God commands and rests in what Christ has done.

Wheat and tares grow together and they will all be separated in the end of the age.

J
jimp

hi, so what you are saying here is 'thank God i am not like this sinner here i have life changing faith and he is saying have mercy upon me Lord for i am a sinner'...does this sound like something you might have read.. if you can boast it is not of God. jimp

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