Nate Pfeil in the fire video made comment that Christians will find themselves in hell..could someone clarify to me where in scripture that born again belivers will be absent from the body present with the devil???
Just so everyone knows he is reffering to this video:
[b]The Fire by Nate Pfeil
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=1415
I personally see many scriptures that warn against losing your salvation. This does not mean our salvation is not secure. But it is there to put fear in our hearts and cling to Christ.
To be honest we are either fully secured or never secured.
i like what A.W Tozer said, that we are on parole (unsure of spelling that), that we are forgiven and secure in him, but if we break the "contract" we break the parole so to speak, then there is no security.
There is security as long as we abide in Christ, the only place that will abide forever is HIM. So if we wish to have eternal security, let us be in HIM, doing his will always in the very smallest of things in our life. I guess it depends upon how we interpret scripture, but any interpretation that do away with mans responsibility or Gods sovereignty is not a correct interpretation when seeing the sum of all scriptures. If i meet a carnal and worldly believer I will not quote security verses to that brother, i will quote verses that say there is no security for him outside Christ, if i meet a believer that has doubts and fears that are to such a degree it is not healthy and not in a way God wants us to live, i will quote security verses and assure that person what God has said.
sermonindex wrote:
Just so everyone knows he is reffering to this video:
[b]The Fire by Nate Pfeil[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=1415I personally see many scriptures that warn against losing your salvation. This does not mean our salvation is not secure. But it is there to put fear in our hearts and cling to Christ.
Its either secure or not secure? Which is it? I know that there are scriptures that testify to losing your salvation, but Christ either has us or He doesn't. If my son becomes reckless and disobeys me...he is still my son.
hmmhmm wrote:
i like what A.W Tozer said, that we are on parole (unsure of spelling that), that we are forgiven and secure in him, but if we break the "contract" we break the parole so to speak, then there is no security.There is security as long as we abide in Christ, the only place that will abide forever is HIM. So if we wish to have eternal security, let us be in HIM, doing his will always in the very smallest of things in our life. I guess it depends upon how we interpret scripture, but any interpretation that do away with mans responsibility or Gods sovereignty is not a correct interpretation when seeing the sum of all scriptures. If i meet a carnal and worldly believer I will not quote security verses to that brother, i will quote verses that say there is no security for him outside Christ, if i meet a believer that has doubts and fears that are to such a degree it is not healthy and not in a way God wants us to live, i will quote security verses and assure that person what God has said.
I agree we have to abide in Him...But my abiding is nothing to do whether He will save me. My salvation is solely dependent on Christ.
"There is security as long as we abide in Christ" we might feel secure by this, but does Christ say anywhere that you have to abide in Me to be saved and remain saved? I think we put to much confidence in what we are doing than the sheer confidence in Jesus Christ.
add to this later...running late sorry
Blessings
:-)
Rom 8:30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified".
Are Christians glorified (future tense) or not??..which is it?
Its either secure or not secure? Which is it?
I would be wary of demanding a answer from scripture that pleases our logic when Scripture testifies against worldly wisdom and is a wisdom that is from above.
Take Heed. Oh may we catch the sense of those words in scripture.
hmmhmm wrote:
i like what A.W Tozer said, that we are on parole (unsure of spelling that), that we are forgiven and secure in him, but if we break the "contract" we break the parole so to speak, then there is no security.So are we suggesting here that eternal security is based on ME abiding in him..so its me that keeps His salvation and not His salvation that keeps me?
trueblue wrote:hmmhmm wrote:
So are we suggesting here that eternal security is based on ME abiding in him..so its me that keeps His salvation and not His salvation that keeps me?
no i am not suggesting, scripture says:
Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
this passage as i understand it is for those who follow Christ, they are saved, without HIM they can do nothing, so it says, yet in the same breath he also says: to the same ones one must think it is... he says
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
what does the words IF mean? now since this thread is drifting towards unwanted territory, i suggest we should ask the Lord instead, myself have come to peace with there is no security outside Christ, i believe as in any relationship its a "duet" :-) but its a special duet, where only one can get the glory, he has done all for me, he does all in me, and everything is through faith, yet he has done it in such a way i can participate and make my decisions. I can decide to live wholly for the kingdom of God, burn out for him, sacrifice my life for him, through his enabling grace, or i can just live my life as i want, i can chose that. And personally after much study, and searching the word my conclusion so far is, there is no such thing as eternal security if not eternally abiding in him through faith. of course i can be wrong, i have been before, but so far this is my conviction.
Now i withdraw and pray we would all abide through his grace , God bless
trueblue wrote:[b]Nate Pfeil in the fire video made comment that Christians will find themselves in hell..could someone clarify to me where in scripture[/b] that born again belivers will be absent from the body present with the devil???
Perhaps, Rom 1:23 speaks to this issue since it is written to born-again believers in the faith:
Rom 1:23 And he that doubteth is [b]damned[b]for whatsoever is not of faith is sin
myself have come to peace with there is no security outside Christ, i believe as in any relationship its a "duet" :-) but its a special duet, where only one can get the glory, he has done all for me, he does all in me, and everything is through faith, yet he has done it in such a way i can participate and make my decisions. I can decide to live wholly for the kingdom of God, burn out for him, sacrifice my life for him, through his enabling grace, or i can just live my life as i want, i can chose that.
So basically in this duet are you are stating that my cooperation(after conversion)is paramount to my salvation..in other words my own effort or works in the duet is necessary??..is this a faith and works duet i must ask..much love in the saviour!!
john 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled".
BlazedbyGod wrote:
Perhaps, Rom 1:23 speaks to this issue since it is written to born-again believers in the faith:
Rom 1:23 And he that doubteth is [b]damned[b]for whatsoever is not of faith is sin
Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed [are] pure; but [it is] evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have [it] to thyself before God. Happy [is] he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.
Dear Matthew Henry writes on the the word damned in verse 23...damned, katakekritai—he is condemned of his own conscience, because he eateth not of faith, because he does that which he is not fully persuaded he may lawfully do. He is not clear that it is lawful for him to eat swine's flesh (suppose), and yet is drawn, notwithstanding his doubts, to eat it, because he sees others do it, because he would gratify his appetite with it, or because he would not be reproached for his singularity. Here his own heart cannot but condemn him as a transgressor.
Nowhere in the above scripture does it suggest that the weaker Christian is damned to Hell!!
hi, Jesus said He would never leave us or forsake us... watch the president of the u.s. if he goes anywhere he is with security ... they never leave him... no matter where he goes...no matter if he wants privacy or not they are there... how much more Jesus who has died for us already,adopted us and lives inside us...He said nothing can pluck us out of His hand.i choose to rest in Jesus and His finished work and His promises to me for He loves me and knows me. why would He save me when i was an enemy of God and not keep me when i am His son.jimp
trueblue wrote:
BlazedbyGod wrote:
Perhaps, Rom 1:23 speaks to this issue since it is written to born-again believers in the faith:
Rom 1:23 And he that doubteth is [b]damned[b]for whatsoever is not of faith is sin
Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed [are] pure; but [it is] evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have [it] to thyself before God. Happy [is] he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.
Dear Matthew Henry writes on the the word damned in verse 23...damned, katakekritai—he is condemned of his own conscience, because he eateth not of faith, because he does that which he is not fully persuaded he may lawfully do. He is not clear that it is lawful for him to eat swine's flesh (suppose), and yet is drawn, notwithstanding his doubts, to eat it, because he sees others do it, because he would gratify his appetite with it, or because he would not be reproached for his singularity. Here his own heart cannot but condemn him as a transgressor.
Nowhere in the above scripture does it suggest that the weaker Christian is damned to Hell!!
The word "damned" in Rom 14:23 is the same word "damned" in this verse also:
Mark 16:16 "....he that believeth not shall be damned
That would seem pretty clear to me-even though no where in this verse is hell mentioned-the meaning of damned is quite clear-and it is the same greek word in Rom 14:23
Katakrino: 1.to give judgment against, to judge worthy of punishment
a.to condemn
b.by one's good example to render another's wickedness the more evident and censurable
They are the same word in Mark 16:16 and Rom 1:23 :-)
"Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."
The Word is clear that those that abide in Christ will bring forth much fruit and those that do not abide in Christ will be cut off.
If we are truly saved then we will bring forth fruit in our life. There will be a love for God within us and a hatred for sin.
There are warnings in the Word of God concerning falling away from the faith.
A Christian should be secure about their salvation, but this security will come as a result of them abiding in Christ and being conformed more and more into the image and likeness of the Son of God.
There are many that have prayed a prayer at an altar that has not resulted in any change in their lives. The Church is doing these people an injustice in telling them that they are saved without any corresponding fruit being produced in their lives.
On the other hand, the accuser of the brethren will attempt to bring a child of God into condmenation when they fall into some sin. There are many that are looking to their own works and righteousness in an attempt to justify themselves before God. Our salvation rests on Christ alone and the finished work of the cross.
Mike
BlazedbyGod wrote:
The word "damned" in Rom 14:23 is the same word "damned" in this verse also:Mark 16:16 "....he that believeth not shall be damned
That would seem pretty clear to me-even though no where in this verse is hell mentioned-the meaning of damned is quite clear-and it is the same greek word in Rom 14:23
Katakrino: 1.to give judgment against, to judge worthy of punishment
a.to condemn
b.by one's good example to render another's wickedness the more evident and censurableThey are the same word in Mark 16:16 and Rom 1:23 :-)
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
The word many in this scripture is mentioned twice and is the same word in the greek.Does many in the above scripture have the same meaning...NO
As for the scripture in Mark it is speaking of the unbeliever while the the scripture in Romans speaks of the weaker brethern.Of course the unbeliever is damned to Hell but the weaker brother is JUDGED by his own conscience...Blessings!!
:-)
trueblue wrote:
So basically in this duet are you are stating that my cooperation(after conversion)is paramount to my salvation..in other words my own effort or works in the duet is necessary??..is this a faith and works duet i must ask..much love in the saviour!!john 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled".
first id like to say many of these discussions become very fruitless due to the fact almost every one of them drift into "what if" and so on, so we have theoretical discussion. And both sides have their "but what if" and by those buts find faults or "holes" in the other side.
I think it is laid out such in scripture God have made it such that in HIS sovereign way he chose that man could chose freely. The main issue for me is love, love is voluntary, i said many times that those dolls i can buy at a toystore for my little girls, some have a string or a button to push, when pushed the doll says "I love you". That is not true love, yet it seems this is many believers view on how their love for God is, i am not saying we are saved by works, by faith lest any man should boast, we are kept by faith, we overcome by faith. Everything is by faith.
Yes i know many scripture give great assurance, and the verses that say No one can pluck us out of Gods hand i believe in them, not even satan can or any thing or man or demon. I believe that, but i believe if any man want to bad enough not to be any longer in Gods hand, due to love of self, the world or sin, and chose freely to "jump" out of Gods hand i do not think God will stop them. I know many do not share my view on this and it is ok, this is my own beliefs, and yet i am not afraid i will fall away, nor that i will not overcome, nor that if i sin once God will cast me away. I do not live in fear, i have found i have greater assurance then most believers i have meet. I think it comes down to that very heart issue, love, we see Adam in the garden had a choice, he did not have the sin curse that we have, yet he chose wrong, I believe we to have a choice. But many make the mistake, if i can call it that to make a decision into a work based salvation. I dont see it that way,I just see that God is calling out to his people, his church to be radical and sold out to him, the book of revelation has a bunch of "scary" scriptures that ought to make us all make our salvation and election sure.
Also i think the hundreds of verses that say "if" , "when" , "stand fast" , "take heed" , are there for a reason. Just as the assurance verses are there for a reason, i do know the reason is not to debate them forth and back, but rather to believe them and obey, and encourage our brethren daily, building ourselves up in the most holy faith. And to say to a believer "you can never fall away" no matter how much you sin, fall, reject Gods will, refuse to obey him, live for your self and love money etc, it does not matter God has saved you and he will see you in heaven. I dont see that in scripture, and i know many who hold the other view from me will say "such people are maybe never born again to start with?" , probably true in many cases, but in other i think not. and those who may lean towards the other side may go into extreme teachings and say "oh if you sin one time you will go to hell" i would shake such talk of like dust to, the thing is scripture is balanced, and mentions both assurance and also great insecurity for all who does not live and walk as they should in their inner being. That is also scripture. The problem is when we feed to much our knowledge in our flesh, we want so desperately to know how it works out, we can not even grasp how great Gods created universe is, then how can we grasp the act of redeeming this creation and how that works out? in every detail, sure we understand stars, moons and orbits and many more things, but so much we can not understand, and with God and man there is a whole lot we can understand, some things we can not, and some are harder to understand and so on.
what my point is, is this :-) you dont have to have my view on this, but just see to it that we love God and man, and if we seek him in truth and humility he may reveal it to us when we are mature enough to handle it.
anyway, i just think many of those who hold eternal security misunderstand me many a times.
God bless
sermonindex wrote:Its either secure or not secure? Which is it?
I would be wary of demanding a answer from scripture that pleases our logic when Scripture testifies against worldly wisdom and is a wisdom that is from above.
Take Heed. Oh may we catch the sense of those words in scripture.
The question is an honest question directed towards you, not to God. Your reading to much into what I said.
I don't appreciate the condescending tone. You don't know what I am referring too or what I am about. I am sorry that my question caused you to be terse...Its not my intention. So I apologize.
hmmhmm wrote:
trueblue wrote:hmmhmm wrote:
So are we suggesting here that eternal security is based on ME abiding in him..so its me that keeps His salvation and not His salvation that keeps me?
no i am not suggesting, scripture says:
Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
this passage as i understand it is for those who follow Christ, they are saved, without HIM they can do nothing, so it says, yet in the same breath he also says: to the same ones one must think it is... he says
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
what does the words IF mean? now since this thread is drifting towards unwanted territory, i suggest we should ask the Lord instead, myself have come to peace with there is no security outside Christ, i believe as in any relationship its a "duet" :-) but its a special duet, where only one can get the glory, he has done all for me, he does all in me, and everything is through faith, yet he has done it in such a way i can participate and make my decisions. I can decide to live wholly for the kingdom of God, burn out for him, sacrifice my life for him, through his enabling grace, or i can just live my life as i want, i can chose that. And personally after much study, and searching the word my conclusion so far is, there is no such thing as eternal security if not eternally abiding in him through faith. of course i can be wrong, i have been before, but so far this is my conviction.
Now i withdraw and pray we would all abide through his grace , God bless
Thanks Hmmmhmm..clarified well!! :-)
i would like to ask a question to those who hold eternal security, no matter what. How do you deal with all those passages that are to many to list here? take heed, beware, hold fast, make your election and calling sure, all the ifs all the when and so on.
Do they not apply to Christians even tho they are written to us? and if they do apply to us.... why are they in scripture when no matter if i do take heed, if i dont hold fast, if i do not overcome etc, if scripture say if you do this and i dont do that. Why would God put so much in scripture when they can do nothing? since my obeidience or diligence to such scripture have no effect eternally? since i am eternally secure, why would i bother to "hold fast" when holding fast will not change anything or do any thing ? or why should i take heed for false prophets ? because even if they deceive me i am still eternally secure? how do you handle all those passages?
it is just my way of thinking and i would be thankful for your thoughts, that hold another view then mine, i just think God placed them there for a reason , that i should actually do all those things because they can effect my eternity if i do not.
anyway, thankyou for your gracious replies and patience with me.
hi, to continue my first statements; what happens if one stops believing in Christ? he is on dangerous ground and i fear for such...he then is no longer the president.jimp
My take on this is:
It is by Grace we are entering into a saving covenant with God through faith in Jesus.. Before this our will is in bondage unable to move towards God. After entering into the faith covenant our will is free to enact in a loving relationship with the triune God. Because of the freedom of our will we can if we are being neglective -- loose our salvation by quenching the Spirit (1Th 5:19 ESV) who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory. (Eph 1:14 NIV)
Sincerely Magnus
Brothers, Brothers
Maybe it would help if people listened to the video a bit more carefully. This man has a heart for those that are deceived "church-people" who have not heard the gospel because it is not preached. A deceived person can notice that things are not quite right when they hear the Truth.
I could agree that some have a question about "loosing" salvation that has been gained. It is good to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.
Do no "church-people" visit this site?
You know, if I were your adversary and could not stop the Truth of God being preached or posted on this site, I would encourage side-tracking and a distortion of the message.
Do no "church-people" visit this site.
Suppose for an example, that "once saved always saved" is true. Shall we give assurance to those who have NOT heard the Gospel, that have NOT believed/received new life, that hear this video. [u]Shall we give assurance, through scripture, of a lie that has been believed[u]Shall we seek such an assurance for ourselves
From the first time I heard it, I have not forgotten the devise our enemy used in his second wave of attack on Jesus: Matthew 4: 6.
[b]Matthew 7: 21, 22, and Matthew 7:23 speak of something that will really occur.
Thank you for pointing out this video, trueblue. I have marked it as another way that a needed truth has been presented clearly.
hmmhmm wrote:
trueblue wrote:
So basically in this duet are you are stating that my cooperation(after conversion)is paramount to my salvation..in other words my own effort or works in the duet is necessary??..is this a faith and works duet i must ask..much love in the saviour!!john 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled".
first id like to say many of these discussions become very fruitless due to the fact almost every one of them drift into "what if" and so on, so we have theoretical discussion. And both sides have their "but what if" and by those buts find faults or "holes" in the other side.
I think it is laid out such in scripture God have made it such that in HIS sovereign way he chose that man could chose freely. The main issue for me is love, love is voluntary, i said many times that those dolls i can buy at a toystore for my little girls, some have a string or a button to push, when pushed the doll says "I love you". That is not true love, yet it seems this is many believers view on how their love for God is, i am not saying we are saved by works, by faith lest any man should boast, we are kept by faith, we overcome by faith. Everything is by faith.
Yes i know many scripture give great assurance, and the verses that say No one can pluck us out of Gods hand i believe in them, not even satan can or any thing or man or demon. I believe that, but i believe if any man want to bad enough not to be any longer in Gods hand, due to love of self, the world or sin, and chose freely to "jump" out of Gods hand i do not think God will stop them. I know many do not share my view on this and it is ok, this is my own beliefs, and yet i am not afraid i will fall away, nor that i will not overcome, nor that if i sin once God will cast me away. I do not live in fear, i have found i have greater assurance then most believers i have meet. I think it comes down to that very heart issue, love, we see Adam in the garden had a choice, he did not have the sin curse that we have, yet he chose wrong, I believe we to have a choice. But many make the mistake, if i can call it that to make a decision into a work based salvation. I dont see it that way,I just see that God is calling out to his people, his church to be radical and sold out to him, the book of revelation has a bunch of "scary" scriptures that ought to make us all make our salvation and election sure.
Also i think the hundreds of verses that say "if" , "when" , "stand fast" , "take heed" , are there for a reason. Just as the assurance verses are there for a reason, i do know the reason is not to debate them forth and back, but rather to believe them and obey, and encourage our brethren daily, building ourselves up in the most holy faith. And to say to a believer "you can never fall away" no matter how much you sin, fall, reject Gods will, refuse to obey him, live for your self and love money etc, it does not matter God has saved you and he will see you in heaven. I dont see that in scripture, and i know many who hold the other view from me will say "such people are maybe never born again to start with?" , probably true in many cases, but in other i think not. and those who may lean towards the other side may go into extreme teachings and say "oh if you sin one time you will go to hell" i would shake such talk of like dust to, the thing is scripture is balanced, and mentions both assurance and also great insecurity for all who does not live and walk as they should in their inner being. That is also scripture. The problem is when we feed to much our knowledge in our flesh, we want so desperately to know how it works out, we can not even grasp how great Gods created universe is, then how can we grasp the act of redeeming this creation and how that works out? in every detail, sure we understand stars, moons and orbits and many more things, but so much we can not understand, and with God and man there is a whole lot we can understand, some things we can not, and some are harder to understand and so on.
what my point is, is this :-) you dont have to have my view on this, but just see to it that we love God and man, and if we seek him in truth and humility he may reveal it to us when we are mature enough to handle it.
anyway, i just think many of those who hold eternal security misunderstand me many a times.
God bless
ok :-) ...To say that we are in the hand of God and that no one or nothing can pluck us out of Gods hand, then to suggest we can walk out of Gods hand is a grave contradiction.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I think we are going to be flogging a dead horse here by being drawn into that age old argument of saved and lost..very fruitless indeed as you will agree...anyways the Lord bless you and keep you and cause His face to shine upon you??
JoanM wrote:
Brothers, BrothersMaybe it would help if people listened to the video a bit more carefully. This man has a heart for those that are deceived "church-people" who have not heard the gospel because it is not preached. A deceived person can notice that things are not quite right when they hear the Truth.
I could agree that some have a question about "loosing" salvation that has been gained. It is good to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.
Do no "church-people" visit this site?
You know, if I were your adversary and could not stop the Truth of God being preached or posted on this site, I would encourage side-tracking and a distortion of the message.
Do no "church-people" visit this site.
Suppose for an example, that "once saved always saved" is true. Shall we give assurance to those who have NOT heard the Gospel, that have NOT believed/received new life, that hear this video.
[u]Shall we give assurance, through scripture, of a lie that has been believed[/u] ?[u]Shall we seek such an assurance for ourselves[/u] ?From the first time I heard it, I have not forgotten the devise our enemy used in his second wave of attack on Jesus: Matthew 4: 6.
[b]Matthew 7: 21, 22, and Matthew 7:23 speak of something that will really occur.[/b] I have witnessed the preaching of this Word of God yield fruit.Thank you for pointing out this video, trueblue. I have marked it as another way that a needed truth has been presented clearly.
Let me categorically say that i have no issue with the reproving of a limp and hollow preaching.I do have issue with someone stating that Christians go to hell.As i quoted earlier in this thread from Gods word in Rom 8:30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified".Either Christians are glorified future tense or they are not...blessings!! :-)
hmmhmm wrote:
i would like to ask a question to those who hold eternal security, no matter what. How do you deal with all those passages that are to many to list here? take heed, beware, hold fast, make your election and calling sure, all the ifs all the when and so on.Do they not apply to Christians even tho they are written to us? and if they do apply to us.... why are they in scripture when no matter if i do take heed, if i dont hold fast, if i do not overcome etc, if scripture say if you do this and i dont do that. Why would God put so much in scripture when they can do nothing? since my obeidience or diligence to such scripture have no effect eternally? since i am eternally secure, why would i bother to "hold fast" when holding fast will not change anything or do any thing ? or why should i take heed for false prophets ? because even if they deceive me i am still eternally secure? how do you handle all those passages?
it is just my way of thinking and i would be thankful for your thoughts, that hold another view then mine, i just think God placed them there for a reason , that i should actually do all those things because they can effect my eternity if i do not.
anyway, thankyou for your gracious replies and patience with me.
Greetings Brother,
The short answer is that Paul wrote to a mix of believers and unbelievers. The historical (visible) church has always had and will always have a mix of sheep and goats in its midst. So, the Apostles include these warnings because they are legitimate warnings. If someone professes to be a Christian and then falls away from that belief and profession, they will not be saved. The warning is real. Now, I would also add that I don't believe that the person was ever a "sheep". They were always a "goat".
Also, I believe the way we use the word "Christian" needs to be examined. I apply the term Christian to people who make a profession of faith and don't give me a reason to doubt it. Now, just because an individual is called a Christian does not mean they are elect, as everyone agrees. So, in a sense, like Paul said "not all Israel is Israel", I believe we can also say "not all Christians are Christians". I hope you catch what I am saying here. I am saying not all those who are called Christians are Christians. In light of this, yes, the warnings apply to Christians. If someone claiming the name of Christ falls away, they will not be saved. They are not and never were Christ's sheep.
I hope this helps. Please let me know if you need more clarification.
With care in Christ...
hello brother Taylor, hope you are well.
I agree to most of what you are saying, the only thing i am not fully convinced about is a true christian can not fall away, so in a sense my only "objection" would be this
If someone claiming the name of Christ falls away, they will not be saved. They are not and never were Christ's sheep.
Probably, and i am convinced this is true about many professors, but i am also convinced this is not so for all, i am convinced some are true christians but after abandoning the faith and the Lord that bought them, they will perish in the end.
I think this verse from one of Peters epistles show us even such men that are false apostles, can at one point have been true believers, such that teach damnable heresies where once his. He bought them, and i do not seem to understand how you can be bought by God through Christ blood and not be saved?
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even [b]denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
But again, i am not saying or believing this is the faith of all who fall, or fail at some point in their walk, but i think there is somewhere a line, when we cross that line, departing from the living God, despising his work and gift to us, that we will perish, even if we did know him in truth. I know this is hard for many of my reformed brethren to believe :-) but i think it is worth considering even if we are persuaded differently.
Gods grace and peace to all
hmmhmm wrote:
Probably, and i am convinced this is true about many professors, but i am also convinced this is not so for all, i am convinced some are true christians but after abandoning the faith and the Lord that bought them, they will perish in the end.I think this verse from one of Peters epistles show us even such men that are false apostles, can at one point have been true believers, such that teach damnable heresies where once his. He bought them, and i do not seem to understand how you can be bought by God through Christ blood and not be saved?
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even
[b]denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.[/b]
But again, i am not saying or believing this is the faith of all who fall, or fail at some point in their walk, but i think there is somewhere a line, when we cross that line, departing from the living God, despising his work and gift to us, that we will perish, even if we did know him in truth. I know this is hard for many of my reformed brethren to believe :-) but i think it is worth considering even if we are persuaded differently.Gods grace and peace to all
2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
:-)
He bought them, and i do not seem to understand how you can be bought by God through Christ blood and not be saved?
Greetings Brother,
So in light of this quote from you, I guess your view of the atonement is Calvinistic? I thought that the universal atonement position taught Christ's blood was shed for everyone?
I just wanted to get this clarification before continuing.
With care in Christ,
Taylor
Also, before continuing, it should be noted that this passage is paralleled by Deut. 32:6.
With care in Christ,
Taylor
TaylorOtwell wrote:He bought them, and i do not seem to understand how you can be bought by God through Christ blood and not be saved?
Greetings Brother,
So in light of this quote from you, I guess your view of the atonement is Calvinistic? I thought that the universal atonement position taught Christ's blood was shed for everyone?
I just wanted to get this clarification before continuing.
With care in Christ,
Taylor
ill clarify, he bought those who will according to the verse i quoted will be brought to "swift destruction", and speaking two verses later he says of these who are bought "and their damnation slumbereth not".
So i guess i dont hold a calvinistic view point, i guess i hold a universal sort of view on it, although i think we need to define what we mean by those terms since different people use the terms with different meaning. It seems to me they where bought by Christ, or by God through Christs blood, and yet their damnation slumbereth not.
So it seems to me there is a possibility to once be purchased by God, and yet be damned in the end.
and about universal atonement, i believe all who believers and repent and trust in Christ finished work will be saved, not as in once upon a time but in continuance, some who do not continue i am sure where never born again to start with, others i think where but fell away, due to different reasons and choices they made. Yet I believe God is very much able to keep those who come to Him, i guess i doubt eternal security for those who stop doing that.
hope that clarify some
trueblue wrote:
hmmhmm wrote:2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even
[b]denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.[/b]
But again, i am not saying or believing this is the faith of all who fall, or fail at some point in their walk, but i think there is somewhere a line, when we cross that line, departing from the living God, despising his work and gift to us, that we will perish, even if we did know him in truth. I know this is hard for many of my reformed brethren to believe :-) but i think it is worth considering even if we are persuaded differently.Gods grace and peace to all
2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
:-)
If Christ; (and I say this with much reverence and fear) died for the whole world to mean/include every single individual-then on the behalf of God in eternity, from the foundation of the world-would he of his own will need to : forknow, elect, and predestinate? If Christ died for all-then all are purchased-but then that means that "ALL" are forknown, elect, and predestined.
The "ALL" of 2 Cor 5:14 is the "ALL" of- " ALL that my Father hath given me, shall come to me"
John 6:37 ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
And it is quite clear that "ALL" as in every single man/person individually will NOT be coming to Christ-as to that there are many in Hell now, who never came to him. It is also quite clear that God the Father did not "give" every single man individually" to Christ-as to Christ speaks of only giving his life for "my sheep"-but never mentions giving his life for "the goats".
Joh 10:11 - I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life FOR the sheep.
Joh 10:15 -As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life FOR the sheep.
And who would the sheep be-as later in Scripture, the Holy Spirit would reveal through the writing of Paul:
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, [b]even as Christ also loved the CHURCH[b]and GAVE himself for "IT"
John 3:16 For God [b]so loved the WORLD, that he GAVE his only begotten Son
(Who is it that believeth in him-the members of the Church IN the world)
Are these two verses at variance with one another?No, God forbid-but rather they reveal each other
I believe I can say this with a clear conscience before God in all sincerity without twisting of perverting the scriptures : God so loved the Church, that was scattered ALL over the world(just like the how Israel was scattered all over the world, but God still loved them and promised them because of father Abraham that he would bring them together in ONE land-his land-both Jew and Gentile in the Church)
Old Testament speaking God only KNEW/loved the Jews, the Children of Israel-they were the only people as a people/nation that God revealed himself to.
Amos 3:1 Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, 2 [b]You only have I known of all the families of the earth
Deut 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God [b]hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth
In John 3:16 you have Christ, speaking to Jews who knew that God had ONLY revealed himself to the Children of Israel, but knew that the LOST SHEEP of Israel was at that time scattered ALL OVER THE WORLD-thus when Christ says " For God so loved the world..."-he did two things to those Jews he was talking to:
1. Gave them hope of the redemption of their family members that were NOT in Jerusalem-that God would find and deliver them wherever they be because of his promise to Abraham
2. Revealed to them that the time had come where God's love would be manifested and revealed to "the world"-meaning those (some) who are NOT Jews-but to include Gentiles, who were once their enemies and in this world WITHOUT hope. Or in other words, he let them know that he had "other SHEEP NOT of THIS fold"
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
And what is the Glorious verse before v16:
John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
I do not understand how people can or will deny "limited atonement"-when the Bible opens up with the Children of Israel being the only people to have forgiveness and pardon of sin-and their sins to be covered on the day of atonement-this same theme is carried out in the New Testament-because the New Covenant is for the House of Israel and the Tribe of Judah ( What I mean by that is, that the New Covenant/Testament is a Covenant made with/for the Children of Israel as a Nation-but not to Gentiles as a nation) and includes: Forknown, Elect, and predestinated individual Gentiles (picked out by God according to his OWN free will)
Why do I say "individual gentiles"-because what did Christ say :
John 10: 1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: [b]and he calleth his own sheep by NAME
So, that being said: "ALL" the sheep that belong to the Church from the foundation of the world-because God hath known them by name and given them to his Son by name-make up the Church ALL over the world that God so loved that he gave his only begotton Son for.
This, is just the way that I understand it, and the way that I currently believe it-it doesn't mean that I am trying to force what I believe on any one here on SI-and neither am I implying that I cannot be wrong in what God hath allowed me to present here. I pray God's Grace-and if anyone see any error, or perhaps any scripture that I have used without knowledge-then by all means correct me, and bring truth to my eyes.
But I; at this moment-believe I have sincerely displayed what I believe to be truth in scripture without perverting scripture.
BlazedbyGod wrote:
trueblue wrote:
hmmhmm wrote:2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even
[b]denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.[/b]
But again, i am not saying or believing this is the faith of all who fall, or fail at some point in their walk, but i think there is somewhere a line, when we cross that line, departing from the living God, despising his work and gift to us, that we will perish, even if we did know him in truth. I know this is hard for many of my reformed brethren to believe :-) but i think it is worth considering even if we are persuaded differently.Gods grace and peace to all
2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
:-)
If Christ; (and I say this with much reverence and fear) died for the whole world to mean/include every single individual-then on the behalf of God in eternity, from the foundation of the world-would he of his own will need to : forknow, elect, and predestinate? If Christ died for all-then all are purchased-but then that means that "ALL" are forknown, elect, and predestined.
The "ALL" of 2 Cor 5:14 is the "ALL" of- " ALL that my Father hath given me, shall come to me"
John 6:37 ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
And it is quite clear that "ALL" as in every single man/person individually will NOT be coming to Christ-as to that there are many in Hell now, who never came to him. It is also quite clear that God the Father did not "give" every single man individually" to Christ-as to Christ speaks of only giving his life for "my sheep"-but never mentions giving his life for "the goats".
Joh 10:11 - I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life FOR the sheep.
Joh 10:15 -As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life FOR the sheep.
And who would the sheep be-as later in Scripture, the Holy Spirit would reveal through the writing of Paul:
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, [b]even as Christ also loved the CHURCH[b]and GAVE himself for "IT"
John 3:16 For God [b]so loved the WORLD, that he GAVE his only begotten Son
(Who is it that believeth in him-the members of the Church IN the world)
Are these two verses at variance with one another?No, God forbid-but rather they reveal each other
I believe I can say this with a clear conscience before God in all sincerity without twisting of perverting the scriptures : God so loved the Church, that was scattered ALL over the world(just like the how Israel was scattered all over the world, but God still loved them and promised them because of father Abraham that he would bring them together in ONE land-his land-both Jew and Gentile in the Church)
Old Testament speaking God only KNEW/loved the Jews, the Children of Israel-they were the only people as a people/nation that God revealed himself to.
Amos 3:1 Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, 2 [b]You only have I known of all the families of the earth
Deut 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God [b]hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth
In John 3:16 you have Christ, speaking to Jews who knew that God had ONLY revealed himself to the Children of Israel, but knew that the LOST SHEEP of Israel was at that time scattered ALL OVER THE WORLD-thus when Christ says " For God so loved the world..."-he did two things to those Jews he was talking to:
1. Gave them hope of the redemption of their family members that were NOT in Jerusalem-that God would find and deliver them wherever they be because of his promise to Abraham
2. Revealed to them that the time had come where God's love would be manifested and revealed to "the world"-meaning those (some) who are NOT Jews-but to include Gentiles, who were once their enemies and in this world WITHOUT hope. Or in other words, he let them know that he had "other SHEEP NOT of THIS fold"
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
And what is the Glorious verse before v16:
John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
I do not understand how people can or will deny "limited atonement"-when the Bible opens up with the Children of Israel being the only people to have forgiveness and pardon of sin-and their sins to be covered on the day of atonement-this same theme is carried out in the New Testament-because the New Covenant is for the House of Israel and the Tribe of Judah ( What I mean by that is, that the New Covenant/Testament is a Covenant made with/for the Children of Israel as a Nation-but not to Gentiles as a nation) and includes: Forknown, Elect, and predestinated individual Gentiles (picked out by God according to his OWN free will)
Why do I say "individual gentiles"-because what did Christ say :
John 10: 1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: [b]and he calleth his own sheep by NAME
So, that being said: "ALL" the sheep that belong to the Church from the foundation of the world-because God hath known them by name and given them to his Son by name-make up the Church ALL over the world that God so loved that he gave his only begotton Son for.
This, is just the way that I understand it, and the way that I currently believe it-it doesn't mean that I am trying to force what I believe on any one here on SI-and neither am I implying that I cannot be wrong in what God hath allowed me to present here. I pray God's Grace-and if anyone see any error, or perhaps any scripture that I have used without knowledge-then by all means correct me, and bring truth to my eyes.
But I; at this moment-believe I have sincerely displayed what I believe to be truth in scripture without perverting scripture.
[/quote
Mar 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
If i can, may i quote from one of our church fathers!!
"by the word many He means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race"..John Calvin,Calvins commentaries,vol. 7,p 508
"Many"-still ONLY means "MANY" as in alot, or large, or a great number-but it still DOES NOT (even from Calvin's statement) mean "EVERY" or "ALL" as in every single PERSON of the whole human race.
Whole human race-means of ALL the races on the earth-in which, there are only two: Jew and Gentile. It means not to exclude any race-but it doesn't mean " every single individual" in the whole human race. It means, not one race was excluded AS A RACE from the sacrifice and atonement which Christ made.
BlazedbyGod wrote:
"Many"-still ONLY means "MANY" as in alot, or large, or a great number-but it still DOES NOT (even from Calvin's statement) mean "EVERY" or "ALL" as in every single PERSON of the whole human race.Whole human race-means of ALL the races on the earth-in which, there are only two: Jew and Gentile. It means not to exclude any race-but it doesn't mean " every single individual" in the whole human race. It means, not one race was excluded AS A RACE from the sacrifice and atonement which Christ made.
Hey bro..so what your saying according to this logic that according to rom 5:19.."So by one mans Disobedience Many were made sinners"...(its only a lot,not every) etc??
Please let me explain that i do not want to sound condescending towards any of my brethren in this thread.It is with unwavering passion that i whole heartily believe that Christ has made atonement for all..but all will not come.Let me say to those brethren who state that they believe in limited atonement, yet believe that those who have denied the Lord that bought them, are damned...is this not a waste of the Blood??.Why do i support unlimited atonement,well for a start Christ either shed all of his blood or some of his blood..you cannot chop and cut!!.
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
According to one Greek scholar(Spiros Zodhiates) the World or Kosmos refers to the sum total of person living in the world.Can someone please also give me specific references to scripture that supports the idea that Christ died for a race and not all individuals within a race.So theoretically a race of one million may only have one who's elected to salvation.
Let me also suggest that we use not assumption or monkey tricks in order to prove our theory's, but Gods word alone.
trueblue wrote:
BlazedbyGod wrote:
"Many"-still ONLY means "MANY" as in alot, or large, or a great number-but it still DOES NOT (even from Calvin's statement) mean "EVERY" or "ALL" as in every single PERSON of the whole human race.Whole human race-means of ALL the races on the earth-in which, there are only two: Jew and Gentile. It means not to exclude any race-but it doesn't mean " every single individual" in the whole human race. It means, not one race was excluded AS A RACE from the sacrifice and atonement which Christ made.
Hey bro..so what your saying according to this logic that according to rom 5:19.."So by one mans Disobedience Many were made sinners"...(its only a lot,not every) etc??
Yes, that is what I am saying-yet to this extent. The "many" that were made sinners, are those whom God FORKNEW in Christ in from the foundation of the world in Adam BEFORE Adam's fall. Like when Paul says I'am crucified with Christ"-well, Christ is the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world (in eternity) thus, that is when Paul (and all Christians) were crucified with him in eternity as well, but to reveal itself in the fullness of time. Since we (the elect were in Adam at one point) but God forknowing us in him before his fall-that is when the "Many" were MADE sinners (those whom God forknew but because we were in Adam, and Adam was at one point righteous-which while we were in him BEFORE his fall, so were we)But because he fell-the plan of Redemption was in play EVEN before the Fall-because (I believe) the purpose of the fall was to reveal his Son/Love to his people. A love that I could say, not even the angels know of. A Redemptive love-though angels have never known redemption(to my knowledge)
I may be saying this the wrong way-so to claify what I am saying, the answer is this:
1 Cor 15:22"For as in Adam all die, even so "IN" Christ shall [b]"ALL"
The obvious is that "ALL" of mankind is NOT "IN" Christ(but ALL of mankind is/was at some point IN ADAM,even those who God forknew)-but never has there been a time where "ALL" of mankind to mean every single individual in the world has been "IN" Christ. (The only people "IN" Christ are: Eph 2:10 For "WE" are his workmanship, [b]created IN Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are "IN" Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, [b]but after the Spirit
Example: Let's begin at Rom 1 (who is Romans written to)
Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, [b]called[b]By whom "WE" have received GRACE and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH AMONG ALL NATIONS, for his name[b]Among whom are ye also THE CALLED of Jesus Christ[b]CALLED TO BE SAINTS
v7 "To ALL that be in Rome"-what "ALL" that be in Rome?-"ALL" [b]THE CALLED
Who are "THE CALLED"
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, [b]to them who are THE CALLED according to his purpose[b]THEM he also CALLED: and whom he called, THEM he also justified[b]but delivered him up for "US ALL"[b]of God's elect
The CALLED are God's Elect(called to be saints)-whom Christ was v32"...delivered up for US ALL.."
Now to Rom 5:1
Remember that in Rom 8:30 it is the Called that are the elect that were justified
Rom 5: 1 Therefore [b]being justified by faith[b]By whom also WE have access by faith INTO THIS GRACE
(The "we" in the above verses are the Called elect justfied by faith from the foundation of the world-the Church)
6 For when "WE" were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 [b]But God commendeth his love toward "US", [b]in that, while "WE" were yet sinners, Christ died for "US"[b]by whom WE have now received the atonement[b]much more the GRACE of God[b]"MANY" (not ALL offences) offences unto justification[b]18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men UNTO JUSTIFICATION of life
The "Many" of Rom 5:19 is the "EVERY" or "ALL" of the elect/that the Father has given me. Or, to make it simpler: The "MANY" of Rom 5:19 is the "EVERY" of :
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: [b]for thou wast slain, and hast REDEEMED US to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, and TONGUE, and PEOPLE, and NATION
And
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, [b]of ALL NATIONS, and KINDREDS, and PEOPLE, and TONGUES, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb
1 Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so "IN" Christ shall [b]"All" BE MADE ALIVE
Will every single individual ever to live on this earth " be made ALIVE" in Christ?-I think not
v 23 But "every man" in his own order-is the "every man" refering to EVERY SINGLE individual that ever lived or shall lived-or is not even this "EVERY" ALL of the "MANY".
trueblue wrote:
[b]1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world[/b] .According to one Greek scholar(Spiros Zodhiates) the World or Kosmos refers to the sum total of person living in the world.Can someone please also give me specific references to scripture that supports the idea that Christ died for a race and not all individuals within a race.So theoretically a race of one million may only have one who's elected to salvation.
Let me also suggest that we use not assumption or monkey tricks in order to prove our theory's, but Gods word alone.
Trublue, my brother-whom I love-though I know you not-yet I belive the Lord knows thee-so we with passion and fervernt love of the Spirit are one.
1 John 2:2 does in fact say that Christ is the propitation of the sins of the whole world-but let us never forget what the Spirit expreseth through Paul:
Rom 3:23 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation [b]through FAITH IN HIS BLOOD
Propitiation is made only on the behalf of those WHO have faith in his Blood. Those whom have not faith in his Blood-indeed have no propitiation.
BlazedbyGod wrote:
trueblue wrote:
BlazedbyGod wrote:
"Many"-still ONLY means "MANY" as in alot, or large, or a great number-but it still DOES NOT (even from Calvin's statement) mean "EVERY" or "ALL" as in every single PERSON of the whole human race.Whole human race-means of ALL the races on the earth-in which, there are only two: Jew and Gentile. It means not to exclude any race-but it doesn't mean " every single individual" in the whole human race. It means, not one race was excluded AS A RACE from the sacrifice and atonement which Christ made.
Hey bro..so what your saying according to this logic that according to rom 5:19.."So by one mans Disobedience Many were made sinners"...(its only a lot,not every) etc??
Yes, that is what I am saying-yet to this extent. The "many" that were made sinners, are those whom God FORKNEW in Christ in from the foundation of the world in Adam BEFORE Adam's fall. Like when Paul says I'am crucified with Christ"-well, Christ is the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world (in eternity) thus, that is when Paul (and all Christians) were crucified with him in eternity as well, but to reveal itself in the fullness of time. Since we (the elect were in Adam at one point) but God forknowing us in him before his fall-that is when the "Many" were MADE sinners (those whom God forknew but because we were in Adam, and Adam was at one point righteous-which while we were in him BEFORE his fall, so were we)But because he fell-the plan of Redemption was in play EVEN before the Fall-because (I believe) the purpose of the fall was to reveal his Son/Love to his people. A love that I could say, not even the angels know of. A Redemptive love-though angels have never known redemption(to my knowledge)
I may be saying this the wrong way-so to claify what I am saying, the answer is this:
1 Cor 15:22"For as in Adam all die, even so "IN" Christ shall [b]"ALL"
The obvious is that "ALL" of mankind is NOT "IN" Christ(but ALL of mankind is/was at some point IN ADAM,even those who God forknew)-but never has there been a time where "ALL" of mankind to mean every single individual in the world has been "IN" Christ. (The only people "IN" Christ are: Eph 2:10 For "WE" are his workmanship, [b]created IN Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are "IN" Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, [b]but after the Spirit
Example: Let's begin at Rom 1 (who is Romans written to)
Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, [b]called[b]By whom "WE" have received GRACE and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH AMONG ALL NATIONS, for his name[b]Among whom are ye also THE CALLED of Jesus Christ[b]CALLED TO BE SAINTS
v7 "To ALL that be in Rome"-what "ALL" that be in Rome?-"ALL" [b]THE CALLED
Who are "THE CALLED"
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, [b]to them who are THE CALLED according to his purpose[b]THEM he also CALLED: and whom he called, THEM he also justified[b]but delivered him up for "US ALL"[b]of God's elect
The CALLED are God's Elect(called to be saints)-whom Christ was v32"...delivered up for US ALL.."
Now to Rom 5:1
Remember that in Rom 8:30 it is the Called that are the elect that were justified
Rom 5: 1 Therefore [b]being justified by faith[b]By whom also WE have access by faith INTO THIS GRACE
(The "we" in the above verses are the Called elect justfied by faith from the foundation of the world-the Church)
6 For when "WE" were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 [b]But God commendeth his love toward "US", [b]in that, while "WE" were yet sinners, Christ died for "US"[b]by whom WE have now received the atonement[b]much more the GRACE of God[b]"MANY" (not ALL offences) offences unto justification[b]18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men UNTO JUSTIFICATION of life
The "Many" of Rom 5:19 is the "EVERY" or "ALL" of the elect/that the Father has given me. Or, to make it simpler: The "MANY" of Rom 5:19 is the "EVERY" of :
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: [b]for thou wast slain, and hast REDEEMED US to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, and TONGUE, and PEOPLE, and NATION
And
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, [b]of ALL NATIONS, and KINDREDS, and PEOPLE, and TONGUES, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb
1 Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so "IN" Christ shall [b]"All" BE MADE ALIVE
Will every single individual ever to live on this earth " be made ALIVE" in Christ?-I think not
v 23 But "every man" in his own order-is the "every man" refering to EVERY SINGLE individual that ever lived or shall lived-or is not even this "EVERY" ALL of the "MANY".
Brother i think maybe you misunderstand me..Im not refering to the many in the later part of Rom 5:19.I am refering to the first part of the scripture "For by ones mans disobedience MANY were made sinners..now this word does not mean all or some etc..it means everyone.So if this word many in this context menas all then why do you suggest that the word many in Mar 14:24 is different...blessings!!.
BlazedbyGod wrote:
trueblue wrote:
[b]1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world[/b] .According to one Greek scholar(Spiros Zodhiates) the World or Kosmos refers to the sum total of person living in the world.Can someone please also give me specific references to scripture that supports the idea that Christ died for a race and not all individuals within a race.So theoretically a race of one million may only have one who's elected to salvation.
Let me also suggest that we use not assumption or monkey tricks in order to prove our theory's, but Gods word alone.
Trublue, my brother-whom I love-though I know you not-yet I belive the Lord knows thee-so we with passion and fervernt love of the Spirit are one.
1 John 2:2 does in fact say that Christ is the propitation of the sins of the whole world-but let us never forget what the Spirit expreseth through Paul:
Rom 3:23 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation [b]through FAITH IN HIS BLOOD
Propitiation is made only on the behalf of those WHO have faith in his Blood. Those whom have not faith in his Blood-indeed have no propitiation.
My dear brother that is not the way i read the above scripture..i see no mention of the propitiation of the elect only.I see the glorious gospel of Christ and how one must put his faith in the blood of the cross.
As spurgeon said "if by Christ dying for the whole world (unlimited atonement) we are to undersatnd that every every memeberof the human race will ultimately be saved ,of course we reject that suggestion;that is universalism,wholly repudiated by orthodox bible believers.But if by atonement for all we mean that Christs death is potentially adequate for evry man,that appears to be the teaching of scripture".spurgeons autobiography
Hbr 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2Cr 5:15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
Trueblue said: "Brother i think maybe you misunderstand me..Im not refering to the many in the later part of Rom 5:19.I am refering to the first part of the scripture "For by ones mans disobedience MANY were made sinners..now this word does not mean all or some etc..it means everyone"
Brother, I believe that is the problem-the word many in this verse (in neither of it's menioning does it mean "EVERYONE or ALL"- it means "MANY"
The Greek word is: Polus: many, much, large
King James Word Usage - Total: 365
many 210, much 73, great 59, miscellaneous 23
BlazedbyGod wrote:
Trueblue said: "Brother i think maybe you misunderstand me..Im not refering to the many in the later part of Rom 5:19.I am refering to the first part of the scripture "For by ones mans disobedience MANY were made sinners..now this word does not mean all or some etc..it means everyone"Brother, I believe that is the problem-the word many in this verse (in neither of it's menioning does it mean "EVERYONE or ALL"- it means "MANY"
The Greek word is: Polus: many, much, large
King James Word Usage - Total: 365
many 210, much 73, great 59, miscellaneous 23
Romans 5:19 is related to earlier verses that are clearer in scope:
[i]Ro 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned
trueblue wrote:
BlazedbyGod wrote:
trueblue wrote:
[b]1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world[/b] .According to one Greek scholar(Spiros Zodhiates) the World or Kosmos refers to the sum total of person living in the world.Can someone please also give me specific references to scripture that supports the idea that Christ died for a race and not all individuals within a race.So theoretically a race of one million may only have one who's elected to salvation.
Let me also suggest that we use not assumption or monkey tricks in order to prove our theory's, but Gods word alone.
Trublue, my brother-whom I love-though I know you not-yet I belive the Lord knows thee-so we with passion and fervernt love of the Spirit are one.
1 John 2:2 does in fact say that Christ is the propitation of the sins of the whole world-but let us never forget what the Spirit expreseth through Paul:
Rom 3:23 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation [b]through FAITH IN HIS BLOOD
Propitiation is made only on the behalf of those WHO have faith in his Blood. Those whom have not faith in his Blood-indeed have no propitiation.
My dear brother that is not the way i read the above scripture..i see no mention of the propitiation of the elect only.I see the glorious gospel of Christ and how one must put his faith in the blood of the cross.
As spurgeon said "if by Christ dying for the whole world (unlimited atonement) we are to undersatnd that every every memeberof the human race will ultimately be saved ,of course we reject that suggestion;that is universalism,wholly repudiated by orthodox bible believers.But if by atonement for all we mean that Christs death is potentially adequate for evry man,that appears to be the teaching of scripture".spurgeons autobiography
Hbr 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2Cr 5:15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
And as A.W. Pink said, and I believe, by the guidence of the Holy Spirit, in the Blessed: The Sovereignty of God:
"Ere closing this section of the chapter we shall consider briefly a few of those passages which seem to teach most strongly an unlimited design in the death of Christ. In 2 Corinthians 5:14 we read, "One died for all." But that is not all this Scripture affirms. If the entire verse and passage from which these words are quoted be carefully examined, it will be found that instead of teaching an unlimited atonement, it emphatically argues a limited design in the death of Christ. The whole verse reads, "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if One died for all, then were all dead." It should be pointed out that in the Greek there is the definite article before the last "all," and that the verb here is in the aorist tense, and therefore should read, "We thus judge: that if One died for all, then the all died." The Apostle is here drawing a conclusion as is clear from the words "we thus judge, that if... then were." His meaning is, that those for whom the One died are regarded, judicially, as having died too. The next verse goes on to say, "And He died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them, and rose again." The One not only died but "rose again," and so, too, did the "all" for whom He died, for it is here said they "live." Those for whom a substitute acts are legally regarded as having acted themselves. In the sight of the law the substitute and those whom he represents are one. So it is in the sight of God. Christ was identified with His people and His people were identified with Him, hence when He died they died (judicially) and when He rose they rose also. But further we are told in this passage (v. 17), that if any man be in Christ he is a new creation; he has received a new life in fact as well as in the sight of the law, hence the "all" for whom Christ died are here bidden to live henceforth no more unto themselves, "but unto Him which died for them, and rose again." In other words, those who belonged to this "all" for whom Christ died, are here exhorted to manifest practically in their daily lives what is true of them judicially: they are to "live unto Christ who died for them." Thus the "One died for all" is defined for us. The "all" for which Christ died are they which "live," and which are here bidden to live "unto Him." This passage then teaches three important truths, and the better to show its scope we mention them in their inverse order: certain ones are here bidden to live no more unto themselves but unto Christ; the ones thus admonished are "they which live," that is live spiritually, hence, the children of God, for they alone of mankind possess spiritual life, all others being dead in trespasses and sins; those who do thus live are the ones, the "all," the "them," for whom Christ died and rose again. This passage therefore teaches that Christ died for all His people, the elect, those given to Him by the Father; that as the result of His death (and rising again "for them") they "live"-and the elect are the only ones who do thus "live"; and this life which is theirs through Christ must be lived "unto Him," Christ's love must now "constrain" them."
Brothers and sisters i know this is a great discussion but do you real8ly think y5ou our going to change anyones minds on here on these subjects. We know scripture warns us from falling away and at the same times says their false professors who really don't know the Lord and also it says we our born of an incorrupitible seed, sealed by the holy spirit, etc. We should heed it all but make sure you stay in faith in Christ which i am assured God will do so, but who really knows.
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