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Sick music

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ginnyrose

I am so upset, so upset I am almost nauseous. You see, I just read the news item on CCN about the rapper who killed a family. The murder scene is so bad the authorities are refusing to describe it.

Here is the link - if the mods decide to remove it, that is OK:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/06/virginia.horrorcore.killings/index.html


While this is beyond horrible, I have to step back a bit and wonder how can a body get to the point where one can even appreciate this kind of music? What are the processes involved that will harden a person so he/she can even like it?

If you will read this news item you will find the father of the 16 YO girl was a Presbyterian pastor....

Oh my, I can hardly think straight..

Brothers and sisters, is the music we allow in our homes the kind that will get us used to the dark? It does not happen suddenly, just by small degrees...the devil does not care if it will take years to get God's children used to the dark, just he he gets it accomplish. He also knows there are children forthcoming who will take this darkness to a level the parents never envisioned.

Have you ever noticed how so many of the cases of DVD's and CDs use black? This should be a tip-off to sincere Believers....Brothers and sisters, when I worked at the Crises Pregnancy Center, we saw the darkness in the eyes of our clients. It was a 'black' look. Now why would we want the devils people to entertain us?

I am so sick, if not physically, I feel so ill - somewhere....

ginnyrose

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HeartSong

What should have us all on our faces before God is that we are introducing some of our youth to this at the church. It all starts with that first drum beat . . .

At the church that I attend, the babies start grabbing their ears and crying whenever the drums kick in. But their slightly older siblings are bouncing along with the drum beat and beating their hands on the back of the chairs even though just a few years earlier they were also crying at the sound.

Just like smoking, which starts with just one puff (which is a HORRIBLE experience), soon one becomes accustomed to it, and then shortly thereafter, one actually requires it. As time passes one requires more and more to be satisfied, but as with all things of Satan, one is never satisfied and the whole person becomes consumed with attaining the very thing that is killing them.

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IWantAnguish

I forget what the exact saying is... but something like, "when the boys get bored, that's when they torture the cat."

Boredom is a recent phenomena. The world is entertaining itself to death. Stimulating the baser instincts, until they become numb, and then needing to move on to more and more extremes to keep the instincts stimulated.

People have become addicted to pornography and violence because it keeps them entertained.

As our brother Keith Daniel has said, if you sow perversion, you reap PERVERTS.

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hmmhmm

In the worship of molock where they offered their children as the ultimate sacrifice, there where done accompanied by heavy drums, probably to drench out the childrens horrible cries from the fire, and also to i am convinced to do something to the parents, it is obvious music has an effect on us, now different music has different effects i am sure, but my suspicion is much of what is popular in the world is bad in many senses, speaking as one who has attended the worst kind of music and concerts available from my unsaved days. Music does things to people, get us into a certain type of mood, certain type of ecstasy if you will, where your normal limitations get erased, and if played loudly and in a group it can have unbelievable effects.

Now i do not think hearing one rap song or rock song will drive someone to murder, but i believe people that have serious issues already combined with drugs alcohol music can be a "trigger" the drop that pushes people over the edge.

I know many would say you can not find in scripture that we cant listen to rock or rap etc, well there is much we do not find in scripture, but we still hold to that. we need to see what spirit is behind it, our flesh may love it and be aroused by certain music styles, but that we would be a peculiar people, separated from the worlds standard of entertainment and enjoyment, in all things including music.

God give us discernment

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roaringlamb

I understand what you all are getting at, but the music is not what caused this to happen. Jesus Himself said that murder comes from the heart, and it is not that which is outside the body that defiles a man, but what is inside.

It is not the drum beats, it is the fact that people are completely void of any goodness and the fact that this doesn't happen more often shows that God in some way is restraining evil.

Let's not make music(not lyrics mind you), which is neutral, into the cause. Murder was in this young man's heart, and he went through with it.

The Pharisees were the most "religious" people of Jesus' time, and yet they had wicked hearts and committed murder, and murders have happened long before this music was around.

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HeartSong

Isaiah 14:11,12,13,14

Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

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ginnyrose

music(not lyrics mind you), which is neutral, into the cause. Murder was in this young man's heart, and he went through with it.

I think there will be people who will vehemently disagree with this opinion: that music is neutral. Please read HeartSong's post again.

Sound is not neutral, regardless what it is called. Ever hear anyone scratch the blackboard with their fingernails? or, let the PM system do a screech?

True, the fellow did have murder in his heart but the enemy will use whatever to dull and destroy the native tenderness that resides in the heart. This is what Christian was referring to. I doubt this boy was born with such an intense hatred.

ginnyrose

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tjservant

...the enemy will use whatever to dull and destroy the native tenderness that resides in the heart.

What do you mean by 'native tenderness'?

Thanks in advance :-)

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roaringlamb

that music is neutral

That's why I put the lyric comment too.

I honestly don't see it. It's like saying that because I have a gun, I will be a killer.

Guns are neutral, as is the internet. They can be used for good or evil and that will be determined by what is in the heart.

I really don't want to argue(not saying you are).

I know the arguments, I used to believe them all too. But art(music, paintings, etc.) is neutral in and of itself. We are created to enjoy beauty, and of course that is completely subjective and open to the personal tastes of each individual.

To me it becomes a silly argument, because anyone can say, "well, the world uses chairs in their buildings." So now do we remove chairs from church?

Or better yet, we use electricity which Muslims use too, so should we not use it?

I'm pushing the argument I know, but where do we draw the line in something like this?

I say let every man/woman be convinced in their own mind.

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tjservant

...the music is not what caused this to happen. Jesus Himself said that murder comes from the heart, and it is not that which is outside the body that defiles a man, but what is inside.

Good point. The Bible does teach depravity of the human heart and that the root cause of man’s problem is not the environment he is raised in but that by nature man has a wicked and selfish heart.

Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked”

Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?


The thoughts of man’s heart are “continually evil”

Genesis 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

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sermonindex

When he was being led to jail, McCroskey told reporters, "Jesus told me to do it."
It's these statements that really anger me.

You know it's not just the lyrics to these songs that is the problem. Back in the 50's there was a man who was killing women and butchering them in his shed. He had a fascination for the skins and made all kinds of things out of them. There was no rap music to listen to get these ideas from. Another man in the 70's sodomizing 34 boys and then burying them under his house. But then we have the likes of Charles Manson who was getting secret messages out the Beatles music. You would think from these horrific events that he was privy to, would cause authorities to at least do research studies on the affects of evil lyrics on the mind of children today. But instead of doing that, they put money into research on why chickens grow feathers on their pin-tail.

This is what this saying means: "Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel".

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jlosinski

Concerning the objections to drums or "rap" music, I believe that the principles in Gods Word are broad enough to transcend any cultural bias we may have towards forms of worship or music, even dress. I am sorry as well, Ginnyrose, that this happened, and sickened. There is one major distinction between secular rappers and Christian rappers- the former seek their own glorification, the latter seek to glorify only Christ.
Joe

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ADisciple

Well, I remember the old fable about the Pied Piper. Rest assured, music is definitely, absolutely not neutral. Sure, "out of the heart proceedeth" all these evils. But then, out of whose heart does this music proceed? God's or man's... or Satan's? (For music can be of God, or of man, or of Satan.)

Some of it-- perhaps most of it these days-- proceeds from Satan... and it's evil! Satan for sure knows it isn't neutral, and surely we ourselves see how evil an influence it is on so many young people.

Anointed music is powerful in its capacity to convict, to inspire, to minister encouragement... The one governing factor determining truth-- even in music-- is the anointing. But all too often it seems we side-step or forget that rule of the anointing, and so Satan has succeeded in infiltrating not just the world, but even the church with his deceptive, defiling, destructive, loathsome music.

It really causes me to cry out to God because of certain young people I know personally who are mesmerized by it. Oh to see an end of this! Oh to see the Lord rise up, and put an end to this!

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ginnyrose

Question:
What do you mean by 'native tenderness'?

I am referring to the conscience. Does this make sense?

ginnyrose

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tjservant


ginnyrose wrote:
Question:
What do you mean by 'native tenderness'?

I am referring to the conscience. Does this make sense?

ginnyrose

Yes it does. Thanks for responding. :-)

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tjservant

Good points ADisciple.

Guitars and drums in and of themselves may be neutral, but what comes forth out of bands like Slayer is satan worship.

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IWantAnguish

I used to listen to music like this kid who slaughtered this family.

Not the exact same genre... but heavy metal... It's nearly impossible to understand the lyrics for the most part, but the rhythm and tunes did excite many thoughts of murder and hate within me.

I do not know how many of you have listened to this type of music, but it is Satanic.

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ginnyrose

Quote:
"I do not know how many of you have listened to this type of music, but it is Satanic."

I believe you. It does not take much knowledge to discern this. The atmosphere just radiates evil.

This morning I checked my niece's profile on Facebook. She declares her love for Jesus by saying so. Then I looked at her music preferences and I was mortified! Since I am ignorant of these groups I did more checking, like listening to them on YouTube. This only reaffirmed by initial horror.

These bands make noise. There is no way in the world one can sing with them, and neither can I understand the words. This noise is about a melodious as a cotton gin running at full blast! And the environment in which these folks perform looks so evil, so ungodly.

I am not sure how I can confront my niece about this...I did ask her why she liked this music, but she has not replied yet. Maybe some yong saint can come alongside me here and give this grandmother a little help?

I grieve so much for my nieces and nephews who are finding the lure of the world so attractive. And music feeds this lust that resides in their heart. (My nephew has reported seeing demons on stage with some performing artists.)

ginnyrose

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roaringlamb

These bands make noise. There is no way in the world one can sing with them, and neither can I understand the words. This noise is about a melodious as a cotton gin running at full blast! And the environment in which these folks perform looks so evil, so ungodly.

But just because [i]you[/i] don't like it doesn't mean it's bad.

I'd be curious to know some of the bands she had listed.

And yes I understand how music works, I was involved in the Anarcho Punk scene for quite a few years, had a band, and actually played with some very popular punk bands(I regret much of that as I did some stupid things).

Bands like Slayer and other bands like that are definitely no good lyrically.

The way you confront her about this is to make Jesus look glorious and leave moralistic ideas out of the conversation. A person is not a Christian because of what they listen or don't listen to.

Present Christ to her, not rules, and let Him change her tastes, because if she does it for any other reason, there may be bitterness later and an even stronger desire to do worse or listen to worse things.

It's kind of like the whole "True Love Waits" thing. The more people talk about s-x, the more they desire it. If the amount of time spent on abstinence training was given to Gospel preaching there would be lasting changes.

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IWantAnguish

Approach her as you would approach any unbeliever.

Pray that the Holy Spirit would bring conviction of sin, and that it would drive her to the cross of Jesus Christ.

Many will say Lord Lord...

Truth hurts... and saves.

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roaringlamb

Approach her as you would approach any unbeliever.

Why? If she's a believer, then present the Gospel in all its glory to her. Over and over and over.

Just because someone listens to a certain style of music doesn't mean they aren't a Christian.

See this is the kind of thinking that makes people flee from most churches. It is not holiness or zeal for holiness, it is moralism.

In the end, you produce a bunch of people who think that because they avoid R rated films, beer, and "bad" music, they are Christians. BUT they have never been born again because they have not heard the Gospel or understand God's grace in sending Christ to die for mans' sin.

Many will say Lord Lord...

Yes they will and they will be just like the Pharisees that Jesus was confronting with that statement. Self righteous moralists who see no need for Christ and His righteousness. They will think that somehow "they" had power to do things(like avoid certain music deemed bad) in His name when they were never known by Him to begin with.

It's really sad that the Church doesn't allow people to think anymore, or let the Holy Spirit convict people. It's like we have to make everyone like out little group, or they might not be Christians. Sad.

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whyme

I'm probably off base, but it seems to me that soft melodius music tends in most cases to soothe the flesh whereas hard pounding beat music tends to arouse the flesh. That seems like common sense. I think there is more to this issue than likes or dislikes of styles. Look at Saul and the harp playing of David.

I have heard, however, Christian rappers whose lyrics are quite Scriptural and a few that are very reformed even in content. So I don't think for Christians that necessarily hard beats are going to appeal to the flesh for those listening to the music in the Spirit. Nonetheless for non-Christians, my original point about the flesh should be obvious to those of us who were saved later in life and used to experience the flesh through the arousal of music.

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White_Stone

Good point, roaringlamb,

It's really sad that the Church doesn't allow people to think anymore, or let the Holy Spirit convict people. It's like we have to make everyone like out little group, or they might not be Christians. Sad.

This is a consequence of the state of the Public School System - it, too, has ceased to teach children to think and reason and just as the housed churches it teaches by rote.

Christians need to be filled with the Holy Scripture to the point that everything they do or think turns to Scripture as the foundation upon which every act and decision is made.

You do not achieve this by setting children down with crayons and Bible story pictures to color - you do it by 'showing' Jesus in your every step. I do not believe in preaching, as much as walking with Christ. A turn around on the old adage 'Don't do as I do, do as I say do.' In this case it would be by seeing Jesus as you walk the sin is exposed with no need for fingerpointing.

Ginnyrose, It would probably do your niece more good if some how you could arrange for her to spend more time in your company. Perhaps, to help around the house or greenhouse?

Kind regards,
white stone

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sermonindex

"Ginnyrose, It would probably do your niece more good if some how you could arrange for her to spend more time in your company. Perhaps, to help around the house or greenhouse?" white stone

Amen.

"present the Gospel to her" roaringlamb

Amen.

And salt and pepper this with lots of prayer and patience. Conviction comes from God whether they be a believer or an unbeliever. As a believer David was convicted long after his initial sin. And Willie Peachy never told Marko, an unbeliever, 'don't swear' (although he did this out of fear as well as leading by example). But in both cases God came crashing down. Sometimes, even in righteous love and sincerity, our flesh wants to jump in and fix things out of our own fear that if we don't do this now then all could be lost. Although sometimes it's necessary to challenge, as Paul did Peter, it is the Holy Spirit that must guide us and also receive the credit.

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sermonindex

I did not read this thread until now, but earlier my wife and I went to pick something up for her and her sister at Outback Steakhouse. The music which was playing was a mix of snoop,dr.dre, and s.shady...

I know this because I used to listen to them, but when I realized it my whole being broke...

I left my wife to handle the order (take-out) and I went and wept. I begged God to forgive me of all the time that I had wasted.

My wife saw that I was upset and we talked about it and I said that no one can convince me that the devil does not have his hand in this music. It used to hypnotize me into living the 'high life'.

It truly grieves me now to think of the poison that I knowing allowed into this temple God gave to glorify Him.

Anyway...there is godly music and then there is everything else.

Living in Korea, lyrics may be in a different language, but the devil has the knack of tongues...

truly the horrorcore (whatever it is called) does not surprise me in the least...

it's going to get worse.

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IWantAnguish

I believe we may have differing views on what a Christian really is.

A new creature, born again, no longer bound by the cares of this world, no longer under the rule of the flesh, no longer under the dominion of Satan, but running the race of faith unto the glory of God through Jesus Christ and power of the Holy Spirit.

Most church goers are not Christians.

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White_Stone

Began studying Psalm 92 using Matthew Henry's Commentary. Today, in light of this thread, this jumped out at me:
Psalm 92:2 To show forth thy lovingkindness in the morning, and thy faithfulness every night, 3 Upon an instrument of ten strings, and upon the psaltery; upon the harp [b]with a solemn sound[/b].

Matthew Henry says (and I hold in mind that he is only a man in his suggestions),

This was then done, not only by singing, but by music joined with it, upon an instrument of ten strings (v. 3); but then it was to be with a solemn sound, not that which was gay, and apt to dissipate the spirits, but that which was grave, and apt to fix them.
This was written between 1706-1721.

To me it speaks volumes.

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ginnyrose

"It would probably do your niece more good if some how you could arrange for her to spend more time in your company. Perhaps, to help around the house or greenhouse?" white stone"

Interesting point. And it might work except that she lives 1300 miles from us.

Now how can I say this with the least number of words.... the home my niece grew up in has disintegrated since last winter. Her dad would not allow this kind of stuff, but the mother is very permissive and she is taking the children with her. In short, the devil has infiltrated that home and in in the process of destroying it, and music is right there assisting the process.

To the poster who wanted to know the names of the bands, I would have to go look that up, and I am in no mood to do so. I just know that I can tell by looking on their pics what spirit is motivating them. And it frightens me.

Scripture says that in the end times people will get worse and worse. We are there now. If you do not believe it go listen to "Andy Griffith" and see how Mayberry thrived. (Our pastor used to say how in the 50s it was discovered in their town that there was a couple living together without benefit of clergy or JP. They were ordered to leave town and the police escorted them out of it.)

Changing the subject here: Drums. We all know that drums will not make any music bad. But have you ever heard a music group use it in moderation? The only one I have heard is when it is used in the production of the "Messiah". There it fits beautifully - when singing "Hallelujah!"

Maybe we need to teach people to appreciate, to value silence. Then you can hear the birds sing, hear the wind rustling the leaves on the trees, the traffic on nearby roads and maybe an airplane of two in the distance. Just look and listen. You might even hear the voice of the Holy Spirit teach you something, something you can not hear with the din of music in your ears.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

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roaringlamb

(Our pastor used to say how in the 50s it was discovered in their town that there was a couple living together without benefit of clergy or JP. They were ordered to leave town and the police escorted them out of it.)

This is the point I'm trying to make. In the 50s, lots of people "thought" they were Christians simply because they didn't do certain things.

Mayberry for all we know could have been nothing more than a Moralistic Utopia without any need for the Gospel because no one did anything wrong.

Consider this illustration from the late Donald Barnhouse in an excerpt from "Christless Christianity"-
[i]"What would things look like if Satan actually took over a city? The first frames in our imaginative slide show probably depict mayhem on a massive scale: Widespread violence, deviant sexualities, pornography in every vending machine, churches closed down and worshipers dragged off to City Hall. Over a half-century ago, Donald Grey Barnhouse, pastor of Philadelphia’s Tenth Presbyterian Church, gave his CBS radio audience a different picture of what it would look like if Satan took control of a town in America. He said that all of the bars and pool halls would be closed, pornography banished, pristine streets and sidewalks would be occupied by tidy pedestrians who smiled at each other. There would be no swearing. The kids would answer “Yes, sir,” “No, ma’am,” and the churches would be full on Sunday … where Christ is not preached."[/i]

Maybe we need to teach people to appreciate, to value silence. Then you can hear the birds sing, hear the wind rustling the leaves on the trees, the traffic on nearby roads and maybe an airplane of two in the distance. Just look and listen. You might even hear the voice of the Holy Spirit teach you something, something you can not hear with the din of music in your ears.

AMEN!

There have been times where a simple flower has preached a sermon to me that was greater than any I had ever heard.

The music of nature sings to God's glory!

But this brings up another topic; the Church for awhile has ridiculed men like Lewis, Tolkien, and Chesterton, and others who had a great gift for drawing us into wonder and the transcendence of God. The Church doesn't allow people to use their imagination(of course tempered by Scripture).

Instead everyone must look the same, think the same, and be the same, or they might not be Christians. It's really a sad thing that we have lost generations of artists, writers, and thinkers because of a faulty assumption that intellect and creativity are bad and to be avoided.

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ginnyrose

QUOTE:
"In the 50s, lots of people "thought" they were Christians simply because they didn't do certain things."

I am sure this happened. But I also know that today many think that grace frees people to indulge in all kinds of worldly activities with no fear of judgement to come. So, which is the most dangerous?

BTW, life was more like Mayberry when I was younger. Was there sin? Sure. But even the ungodly had a moral sense of right and wrong; today Christians barely do. Big difference!

QUOTE:
"Instead everyone must look the same, think the same, and be the same"

With the abiding presense of the Holy SPirit dwelling within, there will be similarities between Believers because he will teach and lead people to holiness - holiness will not look like or smell like something that originated in hell.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

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HeartSong


For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. - John 3:20

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sermonindex

I'm all over the map on the style of music that I like, but I will not listen to secular music (except some instrumental, depending on the musician).

But I've heard some really powerful Christian rap, especially coming from CrossMovement Records which is nothing more than preaching. They have more of the Word of God going forth from there music than most preachers in the pulpit.

And there is a sermon by none other than Paul Washer available on this very website from a sermon he gave at a Christian rap convention. In it he actually commends them for speaking the Word boldly.

I'm thinking about going and seeing Stryper in a couple weeks. They will be in the area for a show. Talk about boldly proclaiming the Word! These guys have been doing it 25 years. Mention the name Stryper around rockers my age... and, love 'em or hate 'em, to a person everyone knows what Stryper believes... and that they speak it boldly.

You may not like the style.. thats ok. I may not like your hairdoo... doesnt mean I think your headed for hell...

Krispy

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twayneb

Psa 33:3
(3) Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.

The greek word for "loud noise" is one word that is translated clamor. We find it again in Psalm 98:4 in reference to using our voices.

I am not sure what the music of the day sounded like in David's time period. Until the Lord returns, we will probably never know. Sometimes it was solemn, sometimes quiet, but in this case clamorous.

When I was in junior high school I was introduced to Petra. During high school, I was encouraged by the likes of Petra, DeGarmo and Key, Stryper, etc. The Lord used the message in that music to help me stay on firm footing just as He used His word and time in Prayer. I still sometimes hear the strains of, "stand up, take a stand for Jesus" (Petra), and ,"I don't want to be, I don't want to be a casual Christian. I don't want to live, I don't want to live a luke-warm life." (DeGarmo and Key), echoing through my mind. I grew up singing Stamps Baxter and Albert E. Brumley (He lived just up the creek from my grandfather as he was growing up). Today I may be found listening to Bach, Bethoven, Acapella, Petra, Misty Edwards, Delirious, LeCrae, and a host of other music. My only requirement is that the music I listen to glorify God, with the exception of some of the classical music which is only instrumental.

My point in all this is to say that music is cultural. I recall reading of the huge debate in the 1800's when the hymns of Wesley (at the time barroom songs adapted with Christian lyric so the newly saved people could easily learn and sing them.) were replacing the "good old songs of the church".

I know some would strongly disagree. I remember David Wilkerson in the mid to late 80's railing on anything that had a "beat". He is an awesome man of God whom I respect, but I have to respectfully disagree with him on this one point. But then all music has a beat.


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BenBrockway

Hahahahaha.... I cannot believe that this subject continues to come up at least 3 or 4 times a year, if not more. This disagreement cannot ever be put to rest. It's getting to be a tad redicules quite honestly. For those of you who like soft music, yes, you can find Scripture for that - just like you can find Scripture for music with beat and so forth.

I can point out:
Psalm 150 KJV

3Praise him with the sound of the trumpet (loud): praise him with the psaltery and harp.

4Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments (we want to disqualify elec. guitars and bass, but they didn't have electricty back then so obviously they aren't mentioned by name in Scripture) and organs.

5Praise him upon the loud cymbals(hmmm... loud): praise him upon the high sounding cymbals (loud, yet again).

6Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.

Psalm 149
1Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song (A NEW SONG. God doesn't ask us to limit our creativity when it comes to glorifying Him), and his praise in the congregation of saints.

2Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.

3Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.

4For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.

5Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.

6Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand;

7To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;

8To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;

9To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.


I could go on with Scripture, but I'll end it there. The fact is, is that we are to worship God with our whole life in whatever we do. So, if we learn an instrument, whether it is the gazoo (sp?), elec. guitar, bass, drums, spinning records, or making music with glasses of water with different fill depths, we are praising God with it all. Plus, I could nearly guarantee that every cultural since the beginning of time had some kind of beat going on.

Why do we have to limit ourselves and our creativity? When Adam and Eve were created, were instruments automatically introduced into their lives for them to play? I don't know for sure, but I don't think so. Instruments were created and developed over time, hundreds of years I would speculate. Some guy named Jordan Rivers didn't just think in his brain, "Oh, I'm going to make a cymbal, harp, an organ, lyre, stringed instruments, trumpet and a timbrel. I think people will take to these." No. With the progression of time and cultural changes different instruments were introduced.

If we are gonna call drums and elec. guitars and so forth instruments or music played for satan, we might as well put the flute, piano, guitar and any other instrument played in New Age music in the same category as music played for satan.

When is the ignorance (I know this is harsh, but come on!!!!)gonna stop?

In Christ,
Ben Brockway

B
BenBrockway


KrispyKrittr wrote:
I'm all over the map on the style of music that I like, but I will not listen to secular music (except some instrumental, depending on the musician).

But I've heard some really powerful Christian rap, especially coming from CrossMovement Records which is nothing more than preaching. They have more of the Word of God going forth from there music than most preachers in the pulpit.

And there is a sermon by none other than Paul Washer available on this very website from a sermon he gave at a Christian rap convention. In it he actually commends them for speaking the Word boldly.

I'm thinking about going and seeing Stryper in a couple weeks. They will be in the area for a show. Talk about boldly proclaiming the Word! These guys have been doing it 25 years. Mention the name Stryper around rockers my age... and, love 'em or hate 'em, to a person everyone knows what Stryper believes... and that they speak it boldly.

You may not like the style.. thats ok. I may not like your hairdoo... doesnt mean I think your headed for hell...

Krispy

As a matter of fact Krispy, I think YOU are headed for hell if you don't like my hairdo...

:-P :-P :-P

I, too, have an ecclectic taste in music. When it is played for His purpose, God loves it all.

S
sermonindex

Keep in mind I am not putting a blanket approval on the Christian music INDUSTRY, because that is what it has become... a money making industry.

We have to be discerning even with Christian music. There are performers who are in Christian music who, I am convinced, are in it because they know they won't make it in secular music. But by the same token there are some who are genuine and love the Lord and want to minister.

I put bands like Stryper in the later category. Back in the day when they were in their 20's they did some immature things as a Christian band, but now in their mid-40's they are seasoned and matured and are really in it to minister. Especially the lead singer after all he has been through losing his wife back in the spring to ovarian cancer.

Krispy

M
MaryJane

Greetings

I think one of the points that ginnyrose was sharing is that some of the music out there does stir anger and emotion in people. That music itself is not neutral, we do experience feeling and emotion depending on the style of music and even the lyrics of a song can affect us. For me personally I do not care for loud music of any style, I prefer it to be more calming. I like music that causes me to reflect upon the Lord. I do not really know how some who listen to secular music that screams profanity and explicit content can do so and say it has no affect on their walk with Jesus but sadly I do know of some professing christian who do. To me if I am listening to a song that has descriptive language in it that is no different then watching a movie with graphic scenes in them, both fill the mind with images that are shameful in the eyes of the Lord.
As far as Christian music goes sadly some, not all, but some of it is not any better except they profess with their lips to wear the name of Jesus but when you look at their life you can not see any fruit that distinguishes them from the world.

God Bless
Maryjane

B
BenBrockway


KrispyKrittr wrote:
Keep in mind I am not putting a blanket approval on the Christian music INDUSTRY, because that is what it has become... a money making industry.

We have to be discerning even with Christian music. There are performers who are in Christian music who, I am convinced, are in it because they know they won't make it in secular music. But by the same token there are some who are genuine and love the Lord and want to minister.

I put bands like Stryper in the later category. Back in the day when they were in their 20's they did some immature things as a Christian band, but now in their mid-40's they are seasoned and matured and are really in it to minister. Especially the lead singer after all he has been through losing his wife back in the spring to ovarian cancer.

Krispy

Agreed!

G
ginnyrose

Rap music - someone mentioned it and now I cannot find that post but would like to make a comment on it....

I do not remember the circumstances in which I heard rap for the first time, but I do remember my reaction - wanna know what it was?

"WWWWwwwhhhhhaaaatttt? ya gggooootttaaa bbbeee kiidddiinngg! You mean people are paying money to listen to THAT? Really??!!!I can't believe it?!" ROFLOL or almost, maybe it is LOL.

Now, why did I think it was so hilarious? When I was a itti bitty little girl back in the 50s, we had in our church a couple men who used to be Amish and when they prayed publicly they used a sing-song voice. The only discernible difference between rap and sing-song is the pitch used: sing-song is pitched higher, at least these fellows did.

Oh sigh....now I wonder when these guys will start wearing broadfall pants?

(Hey! you know what happens when you accumulate a lot of birthdays? Memories.)

ginnyrose

T
twayneb

I agree that the "industry" is a problem. Knowing someone who was involved in that world for some time and who met many of the "big stars" of Christian music, I have heard some pretty eye opening stories. Hmmm! I guess the world of Christian music probably pretty well mirrors the world of modern Christianity. Some good, some after God, and some after self or whatever else. We do need discernment. Hey, whats wrong with rap??? ;-) Just kidding.

G
ginnyrose

Krispy,

You like Stryper and you know I don't. Why this is the case I do not know.

I went online to see if I could find anything that would change my mind about Stryper, to see if my perception is wrong or did I misunderstand it.

I went to the Stryper website and their testimonies sound impressive, but that is all. I still can see and there was plenty there to see. My perception did not change.

I looked more and could not find anything that would change my sense of what I saw on this website.

Krispy, a few years ago you came on SI and you exposed the Gaithers and what they are into, namely, that they have an inclusive attitude towards homos and lesbians. You were very insistent, dogmatic. Back then I also checked it out and you were right. But the Gaithers also have a good testimony. So who should I believe?

I did more checking about the Strypers. And I found this site. Would you be so courteous as to give it a prayerful reading? Thank-you! And God bless. Here is the site:
http://logosresourcepages.org/Music/chr-rock.htm

ginnyrose

S
sermonindex

this thread is a stench.

the days darken, and all I read is limp wristed whining about "Christian rap and rock",.

wake up.

S
sermonindex


We are in a dark world, getting darker, and the honor of Satan is becoming more and more emboldened.


I never consider the more fleshy partitions of the "Christian" music industry, and as a father and husband, never allowed this music in my home; it was forbidden. This was accomplished by means of my conscience and discernment. Simply put, it grieved me.


People are at different levels of maturity, and have different tastes. In India, there is yet a style of Christian music that involves a woman singing falsetto...[ maximum falsetto! ] in short phrases with pathos , that is similar throughout the EAST, and is very odd to the ear of the average westerner; but it is valid to them, and seems to minister to them.


It is interesting to me, that the PSALMS of David are the most quoted book of the Old Testament within the New. These were all put to music then, and many times over today.


It seems the young are always a little more hormonal in their taste, and seek to express themselves likewise. There is though, such a thing as destructive music, when the flesh, or romance, or the World is mixed in song and music, as an alternative for our pleasure for our time on earth. Jesus is our Peace, and these can well steal our peace, if we allow them in.


I would warn people , but if it is not blatantly evil , I cannot condemn them for the thing that they allow. We all grow up, one way or another...and I will be an influence for life, as much as I can, according to my conscience and discernment, to edify.

S
sermonindex

Ginny... that article you posted was written sometime in the 1980's... way before I was even saved.

Mylon LeFevre, the band that the article mentions being in concert broke up before I got saved. I have heard their music tho and they are about the farthest thing from a heavy metal group as you can get. They were more like Amy Grant.

That right there made it hard for me to digest the article because obviously the author is ignorant.

Secondly... I knew of Stryper back then, had two of their albums, but they were not a favorite because I wasn't saved. They were more like a novelty to me, altho I will say that they were my first exposure to the gospel on my level. Stryper planted a seed in me that is still growing and producing in my life to this day. God's Word does not come back void.

So this article takes one or two very small sound bytes from Stryper, probably takes them waaaaay out of context (remember, he calls Mylon LeFevre "metal") to make his point. Big deal.

As I said in my original post about Stryper, they did some immature things when they were in their 20's. I am 42 and they are older than me. I know I don't want any of you to know what I was doing, saying and thinking 20 years ago. That can probably be said for everyone here.

I'm sure Stryper can say the same thing I do... I am not who I am going to be yet, but thank God I am not who I was!

So... Ginny, I love ya... but if you want to judge people by what they said, did and thought 20 - 25 years ago, go ahead. But I don't think that is wise.

And I agree with my good buddy Neil... this whole debate is one distracting waste of time.

I love ya all, but while we argue about music (which is reaching people for the Lord, like Cross Movement Records is)... the world is going to hell.

Krispy

S
sermonindex

Since we are talking about songs and music and faith, here is a new one I heard last night from one of our own. It's about Peter, and the Lord making him his hands on Earth. I liked it.

http://www.theopenlife.com/audioblog/20091006_Hands.mp3

S
sermonindex

Ole_Joe... stick to your day job.

Your lyrics were all conjecture, and all your opinion and pretty much not based on scripture.

By the way, I dont like rap music myself. But I can see what some of these young men are doing and I'm impressed. They are reaching a culture you can't even get close to. Many of them are ghetto missionaries. Most of them know more theology than 99% of us here on this forum, especially those who are signed to Cross Movement Records, as they have an extremely high standard for their artists.

It's humorous that some sit here in judgement of them when they could come here and run circles around most of us when it comes to debating theology.

I would not be too quick to judge something that you are ignorant of. That would make you a fool. (keep in mind I am NOT calling you a fool, simply stating that if you do that it would make you a fool)

Krispy

W
White_Stone

We cannot reach the blasphemer,
using words like ‘darn’ or ‘crap’
Nor should we reach the youth,
combining Christ with rap.

AMEN

S
sermonindex

ahem... yea... trying to make the connection there. What does the first line (which has some merit) have to do with the second line (which is merely an opinion)?

Be careful you don't condemn something that God has ordained. As Paul said, you will find yourself kicking against the goads.

This is a redundant debate. I'm moving on. I suggest everyone else does too.

Peace out... yo

Krispy

G
ginnyrose

There is one more thing about a lot of rock musicians that they use in their promotionals. We all understand this is a business, they are out there to make money, so men will do whatever they can to appeal a certain audience. It is no secret that most music groups appeal to the young because they have so much disposal income and they will spend it on music. And what kind of lifestyles are they into? Their wickedness exceed that which was promoted by the hippies in the 60s. And where do they get their 'inspiration'? And what fuels it? Is it not music? Really, this fact is a no-brainer, you can read about this all over the web.

When I look at their promotionals, their CD cases, their YouTube pics I see where they use the color black a lot. Just look on their pics - so much blackness, darkness with some lights spaced in stratetrically places to emphasize the performers gyrations, dance, drama. Where is the Jehovah God, Jesus in all this mix?

Jesus is called the Light of the World. When we walk in the light we will also radiate light. Matthew 5:16.

Matthew 6:22,23 discusses light from another perspective. In my work at CPC we saw this continually: people involved in sin have a dark look in their eyes - I call it a black look. And I would guess most folks have no clue what I am talking about and the reason is because they have seen so little light in the eyes of people because they have had little or no exposure to godly folks. These eyes that radiate light have an innocence, a truthfulness about themselves that causes one to sit back and think 'wow'! (one day at CPC we were seeing so many clients when a lady walked in and her eyes literally shone. I was startled. Why? because of what we had been seeing all morning, and this was a direct contrast. Oh, and I did not know this woman, have never seen her before nor after.) But then, not all 'light' is that bright. But it is there.

Now, when I see these musicians use dark makeup on their faces they radiate darkness. Scripture says that if the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness.. Matthew 6:23.

John 3:19 takes this one more step further. Men loved the darkness..because their deeds are evil. The experts will tell you that more acts of crime is done during the night...

Since these musicians use darkness to promote their music and use it in its performance how can one justify loving their music? Does 2 Corinthians 6:14 not teach us something? or how about Romans 1:32?

To some it will appear that I am indeed straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel in the process. And to them, there is nothing I can say to convince you otherwise. But to the others, I would like to inform you that there are folks (and there are many) who can discern evil without knowing the particulars of that evil. We accept it in faith when that sense is revealed.

ginnyrose

PS: So the writing on that link is old; but how about the fundemental principles shared, are they no longer valid? Maybe I will have to look it up again and share them? Will see....

S
sermonindex

The entire idea that we need to bend the gospel to fit in any arena of culture, be it youth culture, gang culture, modern Hip or middle class American culture is unbiblical. We are to minister Christ and Him Crucified, possessing the mercies and love of the gospel, that more would be saved.

Throughout the history of the church, this has been the only true apostolic model that has born any true fruit unto the Lord.


This is the idea..[ bending to reach culture..] that got us into the "user friendly" model churches, that strove to serve the culture [ and it's hipper youth primarily ] more than the Lord, installing ashtrays, encouraging a "come as you are" mindset..[ jeans and barefoot..] and a "STARBUCKS" coffee shop in the foyer.

Then the Preaching became user friendly also, tiptoeing around sin and repentance from dead works, and morphing into a God is Love model, that woos you into eternity. This, of course may take some time. In some cases , even today, their own estimates [user friendly ] are that about half of the church is yet unsaved.


Out of this, the "Emergent church" was born, with it's plethora of heresies and anti-Christ doctrines. God loves everybody, even the gay and the Muslim, so who is to say that ISA..[ the Muslim messiah...not Jesus we know...] isn't as right as Jesus, and there are many paths to the same God? "Your hateful if you believe that a gay man or woman is lost, because God loves ME too!"


So, "Christian" music was also hammered into the model; enter hard rock and roll gospel, the side show.....[ literal circuses brought into the auditorium..] rife with nubian dancers, skateboarders, ramps, dancing, and a big Hurrah! for Jesus.


The more mature user friendly churches focus on community, and the well being of their upwardly mobile, mostly young congregation, with inspiring music that uplifts the role of the church with a more romantic version of worship, that creates a powerful feel good glow, but in the end, it is still all about ME. We're cool.


Let us never forget that Godly music is about WORSHIP, and the honor deserved to the Lamb of God for the reward of His sufferings. It is not to edify US!....... Who is gratfied in this process?

S
sermonindex

The entire idea that we need to bend the gospel to fit in any arena of culture, be it youth culture, gang culture, modern Hip or middle class American culture is unbiblical. We are to minister Christ and Him Crucified, possessing the mercies and love of the gospel, that more would be saved.

See.... here is the frustrating part for me where your making a mistake... who said ANYTHING about bending the gospel???????

Krispy

S
sermonindex

I have to somewhat agree with Krispy here. If we take the hymn "Amazing Grace" and apply the same lyrics in rap form, then I don't see how we could sit in judgement of it. 'Third Day' is considered Christian Rock, Casting Crowns... Christian Pop. So why not Christian Rap for those who like that style?? And by the way the hymn 'Amazing Grace' that we have all sung in church has limited scripture in it. I don't think the writer of that was trying to bend the Gospel to influence anyone.

I understand the need to be cautious of the music industry as a whole but let's be honest, we tend to heap judgment more readily of that which we don't understand, or, is outside of our 'cultural comfort zone'. If we make a blanket condemnation of one area of Christian Music and not another then we are getting into leagalism. Bending the Gospel can be a serious accusation as a general statement. For instance, I agree that ashtrays don't belong in the church congregation area but I'm not going to say that everyone who smokes is unsaved. We shouldn't have kegs of beer in the congregational area's but I'm not going to say that everyone who has had a beer after being saved is a reprobate. I'm not saying this is being said here... I am saying that we need to avoid general implications that put down one area of culture while accepting something similar in our own culture.

T
tjservant

I am saying that we need to avoid general implications that put down one area of culture while accepting something similar in our own culture

Well said. Amen.

S
sermonindex

"I am saying that we need to avoid general implications that put down one area of culture while accepting something similar in our own culture."...TJ and CCrider

The worship of Jesus is not founded within the culture of men. It is purely and solely the culture, the property, of Heaven. Men express worship according to their abilities and cultural roots; it is all they have.

There is no doubt that there are many, many cultural expressions of worship that are edifying, to both the body, and unto the Lord. These cultural expressions, on a worldwide level, are CONSTANTLY bending throughout time, and are always adapted by the church holy within that culture or geographical region.


I think of the bush choirs on the African plain, when the villages gather to worship with the Word. I think of the Chinese choir like songs, within the underground church, and the odd falsetto feminine quips that had it's roots in ancient eastern tribal submission, in India. The glory of God visits them all, and they are radically different on the outward, but sublimely congruent in the spirit. They all bring glory to Jesus, and manifest his pleasure by displaying His Presence.


The issue that I address, is the bending of the flesh into a self styled expression of worship, that is indeed no worship at all, edifying man and his accomplishments and blessings, rather than the Lord. You asked who said anything about bending? I did, and the truth is that MUCH of what passes and is funded as Christian, is grieving and fleshy, though it may be exciting or pleasurable.


Christian music has worship at it's core, and that which has slipped away from this platform; that which exalts man, the church, or power in a sensual or romantic way, does not.


I am not accepting something similar within "My" culture at all, but voicing my opinion based on my discernment that the lion's share of sacred music today is not sacred at all, but a perception that is, while being but another form of entertainment and approbation.


I have not heard any edifying "rap" Christian music, but would be foolish to categorize it ALL as of the flesh and sin. God looks upon the heart; Man looks upon the outward. Yet, we cannot throw out that still small voice of conviction that either grieves us, or leads us into Peace. You cannot categorize the counter culture in a general way either, to say one music is all good.....It depends on the heart of the minister, doesn't it, and whether or not the Father has endorsed him or her.


All true glory and worship is given unto the Lamb, everywhere on Earth that His name is named. So it is with the Christian music, that is really Christ's.

H
HeartSong

[b]Psalm 58[/b]

Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men? Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth. The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear; Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.

Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD. Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces. As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.

Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath. The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

R
roaringlamb

This is the idea..[ bending to reach culture..]

Then I suppose missionaries that adapt the Gospel(without compromising it) are wrong too?

See the problem in this discussion is that there are some who coming at from a cultural arrogance.

What I mean is that there are underlying ideas that stem mainly an assumption that "personal taste" equates to godliness, and that anything that goes against "personal taste" must be unholy.

We also see things through a cultural filter that is primarily the one we live in. Thus we make assumptions based on our filtered view of things.

For example, I have heard people in the past make the argument that Christian worship in Africa should look the same as it does here. The reasoning behind this is based on a pride that says, "we have it right, so do it our way".

There is also the false idea that drums in worship somehow "stirs" ungodly feelings or desires. Please, let's be honest here, most males don't really need drums to stir up ungodly feelings(I can't speak for women).

The bottom line is that as Krispy has already alluded to, there are groups such as Shai Linne, Lecrae, Trip Lee, and others who are reaching a culture(without compromising the Gospel) that few of us, if any, could. Just because it doesn't fit "your" idea of music or worship does not mean you can anathematize it.

Heck I just saw an interview with Alice Cooper where he was more outspoken about his faith(in England no less!) than most supposed Christian politicians!

S
sermonindex

"I am not accepting something similar within "My" culture at all, but voicing my opinion based on my discernment that the lion's share of sacred music today is not sacred at all, but a perception that is, while being but another form of entertainment and approbation." brother tom

I was basically making a general point of those who listen to Christian Rock, like the band Third Day, but condemn Christian Rap as a style of music. I don't know much about Christian Rap but I know a lot about modern Christian music like Third Day and Jeremy Camp. I don't have a problem with it. But if I said that I have a problem with Christian Rap while listening to Christian Rock then I believe I'm judging in a cultural manner as a white male. Again, if the song "Amazing Grace" is sung by Jeremy Camp, A choir in church, or some Christian rapper, I fail to see how one is more sacred than the other if each are men or women of God. When I first heard of Christian rap my immediate thought was a sarcastic 'oh great!'. Why? Because I know what hip hop and rap are in the secular sense. But, as a listener of Jeremy Camp and Third Day, I don't compare them at all to the Rolling Stones or The Who nor would I compare Keith Green to Rod Stewart. This is my cultural bias and I should guard against it if I'm not interested in pursuing the truth on equal ground. Some people have a problem with all of it. That's fine, there are bad apples in all things... including Christian music.

As a kid we always sang 'Amazing Grace' in our Catholic Church yet I doubt anyone ever understood what it meant. They considered the hymns of all their hymnals as 'sacred'. But I'll take the Jeremy Camps of the world over the solemn church style anyday if the one's singing it truly understand what it means, what it's for, and who it's for.

L
Leo_Grace

Brothertom wrote:

I think of the bush choirs on the African plain, when the villages gather to worship with the Word. I think of the Chinese choir like songs, within the underground church, and the odd falsetto feminine quips that had it's roots in ancient eastern tribal submission, in India. The glory of God visits them all, and they are radically different on the outward, but sublimely congruent in the spirit. They all bring glory to Jesus, and manifest his pleasure by displaying His Presence.

I share Brothertom's apprehension concerning the growing popularity of "Christian" rock and "Christian" rap, and it's not because these musical styles are different from accepted Christian music. My fear comes from knowing their history and roots.

As a teenager in the 70s, I enjoyed listening to many different music styles, rock included. However, even before I became a Christian, I lost my taste for rock because of its vile content and violent delivery (rap was not around back then :-) ).

Rock is rooted in American subculture that glorifies rebellion, immorality, drug abuse, violence and Satan worship, and the music and lyrics are delivered in a very violent way - bludgeoning all the senses of the listener until he/she submits to the will of the music. Rap is also rooted in American subculture that glorifies crime, street gangs, street violence, wealth, drugs, and immorality. It's musical cutting edge is the beat - less violent that rock, but just as effective. The listener gets caught up the in the beat of the music, much like hypnosis, and he/she slowly and oftentimes unwittingly absorbs the underlying message of the song. Rockers like to dress like Satan worshipers, while rappers take their dress code from street gangs and jails.

So these two - rock and rap - are not harmless musical styles. They cannot be considered harmless since both carry with them a decidedly Godless and violent history. If we do open the doors to "Christian" rap and "Christian" Rock to our families and churches, we must always be aware that door traffic can move in both directions.

The gospel of Jesus is one that a person must see in plain view and embrace with all the consciousness of his/her being. The question therefore arises in my mind as to whether the delivery method of these two types of music (bludgeoning of the senses for rock; and subconscious surrender while being carried by the beat for rap) is appropriate for the Gospel of God. Would we not be turning out "Christians" who are there primarily for the sensual enjoyment of this "Christian" music?

S
sermonindex

"They cannot be considered harmless since both carry with them a decidedly Godless and violent history." leo grace

I agree. But what, and who, in this world has always started out Godly??? Even the church has a history of violence and Godlessness. Does that mean I don't embrace the transformation if indeed that transformation is Godly??

And the music doesn't really appeal to my senses. I get gratification out of the fact that some people can do what I clearly can't... put words and music together and make it about God. This isn't a blanket endorsement of sensual music... I'm not one to close my eyes and throw my hands in the air. But if I'm in my car and need to stay awake if I've been driving awhile, I would rather have something uplifting on CD than anything the radio can give me.

S
sermonindex

"They cannot be considered harmless since both carry with them a decidedly Godless and violent history."

That's odd... the same can be said for me.

Actually Paul Washer said to these Christian rappers that what they were doing with their music was a beautiful example of redemption.

Think about that.

Krispy

G
ginnyrose

Logic.

Culture.

Personal likes and dislikes.

Ever think that God might have a will in this matter? How would one discern that?

I have heard of people who had a glimpse into heaven and they all commented on the music they heard...they said it was so beautiful. Can one in his/her spirit sense that beauty?

ginnyrose

S
sermonindex

I've heard some rock music that is extremely artistic and beautiful. What is beautiful? Who decides that? Some people think Opera is beautiful but to me it's like fingernails on a chalk board.

Where I am from... it's not Opera that's beautiful... it's [b]Opry[/b]! (as in "Grand Ol'")

Krispy

S
sermonindex

"Ever think that God might have a will in this matter? How would one discern that?" ginnyrose

Ginnyrose as much as I agree with you on many things I have to ask what makes you think God's will isn't in this matter?? Who else is reaching ghetto youth?? It doesn't seem to be the church down the street. It doesn't seem to be the parents. It doesn't seem to be the police officers or the inner city social services. I don't put anything past the ability of God, He used a zealous persecuting Jewish man to write part of the Bible. I'm sure a lot of people during Paul's time questioned his sincerity to the Gospel based on his history and circumstances and also questioned God's will in the matter. God brought him through and we'll see what happens here. As much as I believe secular rap is satan's domain, I don't think God's hands are tied in the matter and able to 'turn the tables' by using true Christians (if this is the case) who love reaching the youth that no one else seems to care about. Perhaps some of them came from the same wretched circumstances.

I've never heard Paul Washer endorse this ministry but if Krispy says it's true then I believe him, and I respect Paul Washer as a devout man of God.

S
sermonindex

I've never heard Paul Washer endorse this ministry but if Krispy says it's true then I believe him, and I respect Paul Washer as a devout man of God.

[b]Paul Washer: A Message To Reformed Rappers:[/b]

http://media.sermonindex.net/17/SID17085.mp3

I agree... what are all of you who can't understand why some believe that God uses Christian Rap doing to reach the black youth of the inner city? Are you going down there to reach them with the gospel... or are you just criticizing something you don't understand?

Remember... this statement was made by a white middle aged southern redneck... who DOES go into the prisons, and does coach football which gives me access and acceptance in "tha hood". Some of my players haven't seen their dads in years. Some of their dads are in prison. Broken homes, etc.

What are YOU doing? Or isn't reaching this culture just "not your calling"? Are you just debating theology on SI... or do you actually put some tread on your theology and go down to the hood?

Dont sit there and criticize these rap artists who are taking the Word of God to the hood... when you lock your car doors when you come within 5 miles of the hood.

Krispy

T
TaylorOtwell

It says something about the state of Christianity when we are willing to debate about things not found in the Scriptures (i.e. the styles of music people listen to in their free time), but when someone wants to talk about whether Christ is powerful enough to actually preserve us faultless until the day of judgment, or if what Christ did on the cross actually saved anybody, it's "ungodliness" and "pointless theological debate".

If you don't like Christian rap, then don't listen to it and quit whining about it. If you like it and it edifies you in your walk with Christ, keep on listening.

In the words of Christian rapper shai linne - "the holy Jehovah broke in, clothed with skin, atoned for sin, and then rose again.. so odious rodents and homeless roaches can approach His throne and hold close to Him, and won't be condemned! So we magnify the lamb slain!'

With care in Christ...

T
tjservant

If you don't like Christian rap, then don't listen to it and quit whining about it. If you like it and it edifies you in your walk with Christ, keep on listening.

Amen.

Some people just don't like it when others have liberties they do not.

G
ginnyrose

If you will read all my posts on this thread, you will find that my displeasure was with rock music. The only thing I ever said about rap was my reaction to it when I first heard it. I did not say it was bad, only that my initial reaction was one of incredulity because it reminded me of 'sing song' which I heard when I was a child. (EDIT: I am only referring to the style of sound, not the message.)

Now that said, about going into the prisons...the brethren in our church have been going into a state penitentiary for nine years ministering to inmates. They visit with them one on one, preach and sing. They take along a guitar and sing with it.

Someone has said the fellows from the hood have greater insight into the Word then many who sit in the church pews - this was Washer, was it not? Our brethren would echo these sentiments. These MS inmates weary of these church groups who come in preach a 'get saved now by raising your hand' sermon so they can go home and brag about numbers. These inmates also complain about how so many church groups will nullify plain scripture. They have all day to study the WORD and that they do. They would take issue with some of you on certain subjects and if you disagree they will shut you out. Our brethren have been greatly impressed with their insights and understandings. And what did the LORD use to accomplish this? Aloneness. Boredom.

But do you have to have rock music to reach them? No. Our brethren never had to...now that is practical. The Holy Spirit works quite well without the devil's props.

Hope this clears up some misunderstandings that has crept in here.

ginnyrose

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sermonindex

"Logic.

Culture.

Personal likes and dislikes.

Ever think that God might have a will in this matter? How would one discern that?

I have heard of people who had a glimpse into heaven and they all commented on the music they heard...they said it was so beautiful. Can one in his/her spirit sense that beauty?"ginny

Ginnyrose it was this quote that was responded to. The implication here was that God's will was not in the matter as it pertained to what was discussed.... we discussed the relevance of cultural differences and styles and to not draw a line or make blanket statements. Your quote seemed to imply that this debate was simply about culture, logic, personal likes and dislikes, and not about God's will in the matter, as if these were the only factors involved in this Christain rap ministry. If I misunderstood then I apologize.

G
ginnyrose

Just thought of something else...

The past several years our church has hosted a VBS for the children in the town nearby which are black. Although the age limit is 13 older ones come, too. Out of this VBS has risen a Kidz Klubs for different ages of children. The organizers say they do not know of one child who comes from a nuclear, intact family. Not one.

They do work projects with the boys. (Our church property consists of 12 acres, most of it wooded.) These fellows have cleared paths, graveled these paths; made rooms in the woods, built benches, etc. When we have VBS these 'rooms' are used as gathering places.

No one has to use rock music to get their attention. They have enough of the devils work in their home to entertain, and distress them - it is time to show them how God works through silence, creativity, teamwork.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

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sermonindex

The Holy Spirit works quite well without the devil's props.

It's an assumption that it's the "devil's props"... but be that as it may, the Holy Spirit will use whatever He wishes. Sometimes He might even use what you call a "prop"...

...like VBS.

While salvation is of the Lord, and it is the Holy Spirit that reveals the Truth of the Gospel to an unsaved heart... let us also not put the Holy Spirit in a box.

Paul said in scripture that he would become all things to all men so that he might save some.

By the way, I commend the men in your church. Maybe some of us on the outside need to go to jail for awhile so we can have time to study scripture like these inmates do. And it is correct that you dont need rap music to reach these men... you can't take stuff like that in there anyway.

But in the neighborhoods... it's not a captive audience, and they have not hit rock bottom yet. It's a different situation.

Krispy

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ginnyrose

ccrider,

As I was reading the posts, I picked up the concept that culture factors in a lot so one must be tolerant of it, adapt to it in order to reach people. This is what I was referring to.

My point is that when a person comes to the LORD he will get a 'new song' and this will be different. It will not remind one of heavy machinery clanging and people screaming.

And folks may still disagree with me. SIGH.

I know how misunderstandings creep in - it happens to all of us. God bless you, ccrider.

ginnyrose

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sermonindex

it is time to show them how God works through silence, creativity, teamwork.

And there is a time and a place for that too, just as Solomon said.

No one in this discussion ever even suggested by mistake that music is the only way... or even the best way to reach these kids. You are assuming if you think thats what anyone here is suggesting.

Krispy

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sermonindex

As I was reading the posts, I picked up the concept that culture factors in a lot so one must be tolerant of it, adapt to it in order to reach people. This is what I was referring to.

Ummm... isnt this what missionaries do?

Are we supposed to be bringing people to the Lord, or turning everyone into white middle class Americans?

I think I'd rather be a poor Chinese Christian worshipping in a cave. They have a better spiritual track record than we do.

Krispy

I
IWantAnguish

I agree when people say that the beats and rhythm of rap music raise a sense of rebellion from within...

That being said, rebellion against what?

The dominant culture during the years of the origin of rock and rap was a moral society. But today the dominant culture is that of sin.

A strong sense of rebellion and a wartime mentality sets in when I listen to Christian rap. To take the sword of the Spirit and go out with the shield of faith.

Rebellion yes, but against this modern culture, not against God.

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sermonindex

Anyone, especially a christian, who says music is "neutral" is really lacking in basic, logical observation.

Someone also compared music to a gun. Please, spare me. A gun just sit's there till picked up. Music is very much alive and everywhere spreading it's language.

Paul gives us the foundation and framework that our music should reflect.

"Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;"

What is a true psalm? What is a true hymn? What is a true spiritual song? What is true melody?

Get this down and one should be able to better discern true Spiritual christian worship/music versus worldy.


Lastly, yea I know that know matter how much common biblical sense is put forth on this subject some christians will still want to slide toward the worldy stuff.


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sermonindex

[b]thingsabove[/b]

What is a spiritual song?? Try this one out... by 116 Clique... a Christian rap group:

[b]I See The Lord[/b]

[i]Cast down my crown to worship you in spirit and truth
As I see You on the throne, I see Your train fills the roof
I'm on bended knees, hands extended closed eyes
Holy, Holy, Holy is Lord the Most High
Woe is me, I'm a man with unclean lips
And I live amongst a people whose on the same trip
That when one Seraphim flew to me with coal in his hands
He touch me on my lips, said I was a brand new man
As the foundation shook He's asking, who shall He send
I said, "Send me Lord, I commit to faithful men"
Sometimes Lord, I feel like I don't give you enough
The kind of pure joy to persevere when times get tough
So I keep a concentrated relationship fixed on you
I keep my eyes to the hills so I can have a right view
I stand in awe of You
How You measured the earth with the palm of Your hand
And yet, and still you want to be friends with such an unclean man
So like John I fall prostrate on this island of life
I worship You, recognizing you are power and might
Glory and light, eternal in sight, blameless and right
Creator of life, thief in the night, Jesus the Christ

[Chorus]
I see the Lord, seated on the throne, exalted
And the train of His robe, fills the temple with glory
And the whole earth is filled, and the whole earth is filled
And the whole earth is filled, with His glory

[Verse Two]
The sun suspends in the air
I can feel Your winds everywhere
You care to the grains of my hair
Divine works all around me
I can't get past the evidence
The fact that your invisible, to me, is irrelevant
I know your heaven sent, straight to the virgin birth
Gave me a second chance even after man's curse
A third, a fourth, a fifth, and a sixth
You wore my crown of thorns, you took my licks as they spit
In ya face, off the cross a sinner you embraced
Now I understand what's the meaning of grace
I war against the flesh, can't wait till the day that you come
Cause everday I'm rewriting Psalm 51
From the weak to the dumb
You make us shine like Pearls
Got a new engagement, broke up with that girl named world
The relationship was unfruitful, I was Satan's pupil
They told me you was an unfair God, I believed those lies
I know the truth now, cause you've been fair since creation
Man fell, and then you gave man emancipation
I know the saying one sin can make man fall
But with one drop of blood, he can save us all
I'm a living sacrifice, I lay my life upon the altar
I pray to have faith that don't forsake you, like a martyr
I have a desire, that's to know you more
I have no choice to live holy cause I see the Lord

[Chorus]

[Isaiah 6]
For Whole earth is full of his glory
And the foundations of the threshold tremble
At the voice of him who called out
While the temple is filled with smoke
I said to myself Woe is me
For I am ruined
Because I'm a man with unclean lips
And I live amongst a people with unclean lips
For my eyes have seen the king, the Lord of Hosts
Then one seraphim flew to me
With burning coals in his hand
He touched me on my lips
Said my iniquity is taken away, and my sins forgiven
Then I heard the voice of the Lord say
Who shall I send?
Who will go for us
Then I said
Here I am, Send Me[/i]

Krispy

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tjservant

What is a true psalm? What is a true hymn? What is a true spiritual song? What is true melody?

Get this down and one should be able to better discern true Spiritual christian worship/music versus worldy.

Good point.

I believe it will look and sound different in different places. A missionary once told me the he believes most Americans think when people get saved in the heart of Africa they build a cute little church building, sit on pews, and sing Amazing Grace. When in all reality their worship still “looks” and “sounds” very tribal in comparison to what we have in America.

He said that one tribe he worked with had no word for father, so they pray to “Papa God.” They dance in a circle and thank Him for the rain. He said the words would bring tears to your eyes.

I have not personally heard any of the music or seen any of the dancing this man told me about, but I’m sure it’s a lot different than anything I’m familiar with. Probably looks “worldly” to a lot of folks.

Just my 2 cents.

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sermonindex

to wit:



I think I'd rather be a poor Chinese Christian worshipping in a cave. They have a better spiritual track record than we do.

I like that. Look, we're "poor" anyway, we're Christians, or followers of Jesus, or in my case a New Covenant Jew...whatever title ya want to put on us, so I ask, where's the cave?

personally I have grown positively weary of North American Christian-ish, I won't go into the many reasons why, but look at it this way pardner, there's something wrong when the head of the [b]National Association of Evangelicals[/b] turns out to be a male whore mongering meth head. Now, I sure am a sinner washed in the Blood, and have fallen FAR short of the Glory of the Lord, but when the top guy of a parachurch organization, who fashioned himself one of the "generals" in the "culture wars" is exposed as a [b]rank hypocrite[/b], a "white-washed tomb", it is evident many many of the flock have been led astray to fornicate with the political systems of man, and the dictates of the monied class. Thats all I gotta say, except I liked where your heart is canted, coz its coming, I wish "they" would make Bible ownership illegal, watch the Church grow....demoninations? out the window, a backslidden luxury.

In Jesus love, your bro, neil

latter addition- when they do make Bible ownership illegal, I'll have a hundred plus, hidden and ready. ESV though, sorry.........teasing, I'd put some KJV's in the Mix.

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sermonindex

He said that one tribe he worked with had no word for father, so they pray to “Papa God.” They dance in a circle and thank Him for the rain. He said the words would bring tears to your eyes.

I have not personally heard any of the music or seen any of the dancing this man told me about, but I’m sure it’s a lot different than anything I’m familiar with. Probably looks “worldly” to a lot of folks.

And if these brothers and sisters in the Lord came here and worshipped like that there would be a ton of stiff collared Christians standing around with there arms folded looking on saying "God is not in this! This music is strange to my ears... there is no organ or piano... and the dancing! Oh no!"

God must laugh at us sometimes.

Krispy

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sermonindex

Paul said he would become all things to all people that he might win 'some' to Christ. To those who were under the law he became as one under law....However once they were won he did not leave them under the law but rather called them to not mix law with grace anymore.

Now I know that not all who come to Christ emmediatly drop all questionable things on the very first day. However when one comes to Christ they are more sensitive and teachable especially in the early time of their newbirth. So in regards to this question of acceptable music we should know what to say that will benefit them moving forward.
This can be difficult in some situations cuz you have other christians around who will oppose you on this subject and then create confusuion in the newborn. regardless we should not shy away if the subject is brought up. Paul again gives the christian the music worship guideline ,

Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Now I 'll share a short testimony.

Prior to being saved I for years enjoyed soft rock, hard rock, and even heavy metal. Rap had not quite hit the mainstream airwaves yet. I had a hardy collection of cassette tapes probably about fifty tapes from all these categories. I ENJOYED listening to them. When I got saved late one night it was wonderful. I went to bed and slept like a baby. The next evening I settled in to listen to some of my music. I put the headphones on and started playing. Emmediatly I was like "what is this... i don't like this... why do I not like this? Conclusion was that the Holy Ghost now in me was saying We don't like this wordly music. So the Spirit now in me was rejecting much of what I was listening to before. within a day or two after that I threw away almost all of my cassettes. I held onto some of the "softer' ones for awhile. It would take me a few more years to get a better handle on this subject.
Now today if I am listening to wordly music I know that it is not "profitable" for me. I listen to hymn and melodious music and it is soothing and a blessing to me.
I share this not to say everyone should do EXACTLY as I did. but take from it whatever is profitable for you.


M
MaryJane

Greetings

May I ask a serious question to a few here who are in support of using rap music/ rock music to reach out to inner city black youth?

I was sharing over what some have said here and my son and I got to talking? He wondered if those who are saying that this is the best way to reach these youth that are lost is with rap because its their cultural thing, would the same then apply to those that he knows. Would you then agree that in order to reach the suburban white youth that are lost it would be alright Biblically to grab an xbox and put in Halo. IF their was sharing about Jesus in between turns, and if all language was shut off in the game so that would not be an issue. Would it be alright to hang out, talk about Jesus, play some music with Jesus in the words,and play Halo for a few hours? Now before anyone accuses me of being ridicules and says these are two different things and I am just being silly...I ask you to please remember this is my 16 year old sons question and he is just trying to understand the thought process going on in the thread. In his circle of peers video games is what is culturally relevant to them. So would it be ok to use them as a tool to reach these young people just as the rap is used to reach inner city youths?

Thanks for anyone who wants to field his question:-)

God Bless
maryjane

edit:my son wanted me to add that while he does not like rap music(its not his thing) he does listen to Jars of Clay, Switchfoot, Relient K, Glorious Unseen, and some older stuff by Five Iron Frenzy. He also said that to him its all about the attitude of the heart, whether it be sports, music, or any form of entertainment. He is curious to hear others thoughts on this though.

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sermonindex

I posted an example of some Christian rap lyrics (which everyone ignored)... are you really comparing that to Halo? For real?

By the way, no one said it is the best way or only way to reach kids. It's as if you havent read anything anyone said here, MJ.

So he has a problem with rap... but not rock... because he likes it? So someone who likes Christian rock (and Switchfoot, which refuses to call itself a Christian band, and plays music that is basically secular) is questoning the merits of Christian rap? Just trying to understand where he is coming from... help me out here.

Krispy

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sermonindex

"He wondered if those who are saying that this is the best way to reach these youth that are lost is with rap because its their cultural thing, would the same then apply to those that he knows."maryjane

I don't see anyone saying it is the 'best way'. It's PART of their way..... it's part of the overall ministry to reach a lost and dying ghetto world. And if it's working then why does it matter? Are the one's that your son knows surrounded by guns, crack addicts, and gang violence?? Is he parentless either physically or emotionally?? I guess to me it just doesn't make sense to always have a 'cookie cutter' method when there's no such thing as a 'cookie cutter' circumstance. How many testimonies of salvation are the result of 'the best way'.... whatever that may be. If the Word of God isn't being compromised in terms of heretical lyrics then I'm willing to reserve judgment.

In Ginnyrose's "Hey Peachy" article, how many of us would go to Willie Peachy and say 'was that the best way to minister to Marko? Just doing what you're told and not challenging his atheism on the spot? Perhaps you should have brought the Bible to work and showed him the truth and then confront him on his awful sinful behaviors'. The result of Peachy's ministering testify to the method which wasn't really a method at all... just a kid who believed in God, loved the lost, and obeyed the commands of his parents concerning the way you treat others in authority. None of us here would have had a snowballs chance in 'you know where' to minister to someone such as a Marko...... we're too opinionated, stubborn, and doctrinally sterile.

I'm against the whole mainstream, feelgood, ask Jesus into your heart, contingent. But I can't always let that fuel my cynicism that says 'if it looks mainstream then it's not of God'. And I can't say that what worked for one person works for all. Willie Peachy displayed the same attitude and behaviors to all the painters plummers etc..., yet it seemed that Marko was the only one who had God come crashing down on him. There is no one way, one method, one philosphy. Just one God wanting to use one person.

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sermonindex

Krispy am I missing something here?/ Why are you suddenly so snippy?

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sermonindex

Also the words to your rap song were fine. The concern I have is that it is also an issue about beat, rhythm ,and melody. Not just words.

ozzie could sing those words but it would not necessarly mean he was true beliver or that the rhythm, and beat and melody are in proper balance.

I have to go do my laundry. chit chat later.

M
MaryJane

Greetings Krispy and ccrider

I stand corrected then, I was trying to ask the question for my son because this was a topic we were discussing. I should not have asked if it was the best way but since it was accepted as an acceptable way to reach the youth of inner cities, would it be acceptable to reach suburban youths with the xbox/video games? I am really sorry if the way I approached the question seemed offensive. Please forgive me.

ccrider you asked if the peers around my son where exposed to violence, crack addicts, guns and are parent less? I guess my first question would be why does that matter, are the suburban youth and less lost then the inner city youth?Both desperately need Jesus don't they? Sadly yes many of the young men and woman have here little to no covering from their parents. Mom and dad both work long hours and many youth find themselves left to alone to hang out with their peers. Some are shuffled back and forth between two parents who are divorced and others do not know their dads at all. Fornication, and drug/alcohol use is common all with out mom and dad ever knowing. Absent parents sadly are not an issue of just certain groups in this country(not saying that you said it was, just my comment)

I am sorry I was really not trying to get into a debate about which group of children/youth have it worse in this county I was just passing along a question that came up with my son during a discussion about reaching out to people.

I did not in anyway mean to offend anyone or cause anyone to become angry. I think I will just leave this alone and I will just tell my son that I botched the question. No big deal. One last thought if I may humbly just share in all sincerity, I really was just trying to ask a simple question, perhaps the tone used in some replies could be softened when someone is just trying to ask a question in seeking understanding?


Have a great day everyone
God Bless
maryjane

edit: Oh and to answer your question Krispy I was not trying to compare Halo to the lyrics of the song you posted. Again to clarify I was asking a question for my son about how we approach others and what methods seem relevant and acceptable today? He knows of youth groups that do use video games as a way of reaching the lost in the community.He was not saying that Christian rap was bad, or not, he believes its a matter of the attitudes of the heart not necessarily the music itself.(of course there are secular rock groups that are not listened to at all because of content ect.) Again the question was not about coming down on christian rap/rock or any other music but about reaching out to others who have cultural differences?? So anyway hope that clears this up, please do take care brother and God Bless.


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sermonindex

I beleive that the issue of proper christian music/is important. However it is a very difficult one to discuss because it is moroe about emotion and mild addiction to the secular rythm and beat than it is in true spiritual worship.

Several years ago Focus on the Family did a program on this subject. Afterwards Dobson said he would not do another program like that again. the response was more than what they got on abortion or any other topic. He said that the majority response was in the negative against Focus for the stance against a more secular christian music that was being proposed. It's been awhile since I heard him speak about this so I am paraphrasing.

Any topic on this forum can become heated. Especially on music.

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sermonindex

"I guess my first question would be why does that matter, are the suburban youth and less lost then the inner city youth?Both desperately need Jesus don't they?" maryjane

I'm sorry if I came across as offended because I don't consider your post offensive at all. It's me not you :) As one who spent several years investigating child molestation and abuse, I'm a little passionate about those who I think society seems to disregard as irrelevant. I agree that lost is lost in a spiritual sense but I also believe that circumstances which seem to make evangelizing harder are evident in certain sections of society. David Wilkerson is well known for his evangelical work on the streets of New York City during the 70's. Why is he well known for this?? I believe it's because it's a job not many people want and we know why that is. Now I'm sure he wasn't ministering via a boom box next to his ear but he had God behind him. I hope and pray God is behind all those willing to risk it all because not many want to risk dirtying their hands in the pit of America.

H
HeartSong


Any thing that is declared to be necessary to draw others unto Christ - any thing other than the Holy Spirit Himself - is conceived in pride and born of the flesh and as such becomes the perfect weapon of Satan.

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sermonindex

"Any thing that is declared to be necessary to draw others unto Christ - any thing other than the Holy Spirit Himself is conceived in pride and born of the flesh and as such becomes the perfect weapon of Satan." heartsong

I agree. I think many a church-goer can testify to this.

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sermonindex

No offense taken, MJ... we're cool. Always have been as far as I am concerned. :-)

Krispy

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sermonindex

Any thing that is declared to be necessary to draw others unto Christ - any thing other than the Holy Spirit Himself - is conceived in pride and born of the flesh and as such becomes the perfect weapon of Satan.

I agree! And as have stated (several of us, actually)... music is NOT necessary to draw others to Christ, especially considering that it is the HOLY SPIRIT who draws men and women.

This has been stated over and over and over and over again on this thread. It would be nice if people would read a few of the other posts before saying something like this... AGAIN.

God used Stryper 25 years ago to plant a seed in me. I didn't get saved at a Styrper concert or anything like that. But their lyrics did make one think... what if there is a God? What if Jesus did die for me, and what does that mean exactly? Why do these guys use so much hair spray?

And now, 2 1/2 decades later... I know the Jesus they sang about. Was Stryper necessary for that seed to be planted? No. But it was one of the many tools and circumstances the Lord orchestrated that got me to the point where one night in the early 90's I gave it all up to the Lord and was saved.

That much can not be denied.... by any of you.

Krispy

L
Leo_Grace

First, let me state clearly that I am not of those who cling to Christian traditions (e.g. hymns, Sunday dress, KJV Bible ;-), etc.) as if they were essentials to true faith. I am all in favor of using any medium that would effectively lead others to Christ.

I would like to restate what I was trying to say in an earlier post about how the history of the musical genre should be taken into account, because that very history is always evoked when that type of music is played.

In my previous post, I mentioned that rock music was created by an American subculture that embraced rebellion, violence, sexual immorality, drug use, and Satan worship. When rock music is played the "Satanist" spirit of this history is evoked. Rap music was created by a more recent American subculture of criminality, gang violence, materialism, drug use, and sexual immorality. It is this "Gangsta" spirit that arises when rap music is played. I will no longer comment on "Christian" rock or "Christian" rap since there are lovers of these music forms that take offense.

Let's talk about another type of music that is readily recognizable and has a similar Godless history - burlesque or striptease music. It is recognizable by its slow, grinding start with a teasing tempo that builds to a crescendo as more and more of a stripper's clothing is shed for the pleasure of the audience. When burlesque music is played, thoughts of attractive young women displaying their naked bodies to the world is evoked.

Many lost men and women enjoy to watch striptease for the audiovisual sexual pleasures it provides. Now, if we were to reach out to these people, would it be wise to use the music that they enjoy by creating "Christian" burlesque, using their same hip-grinding music but putting in "Christian" lyrics? While listening to "Christian" burlesque music, wouldn't thoughts of gyrating naked bodies interfere with the Christian message in the lyrics? Wouldn't they be better served by a loving and straightforward presentation of the gospel instead of trying to entertain them with music whose very sound evokes sin and Godlessness?

Please think about it.

M
MaryJane

Greetings

Heartsong wrote:Any thing that is declared to be necessary to draw others unto Christ - any thing other than the Holy Spirit Himself - is conceived in pride and born of the flesh and as such becomes the perfect weapon of Satan.

My reply: I agree with you on this. Jesus and Jesus alone is what we need to share with the lost.

IF I may I just also wanted to make a few other things clear, my boys do not play Halo(although they do know some peers who do). I was not trying to say that I endorse using video games or any other means when sharing Jesus with others. I posted that question for my son because believe it or not this topic has come up in youth group discussions. There are some who believe we should use what ever means possible to attract the lost, to get them to come and then use those means to keep them coming back. Sadly many youth group gatherings are not much more then a bunch of under supervised young people hanging out.

Krispy: thank you for your response to me, I appriicate that. Actually had a nice discussion with my son about the band Switch foot. My son said to tell you that you are completely right they do not claim to be a christian band although Jon Foreman does profess to be a christian himself and claims to love the Lord very much. We talked about why the band holds the views that it does when it comes to their music and I read some of the articles and interviews with the group members. Now to be honest my husband usually handles the music stuff because I don't really like music at all(has to do with childhood neglect and stuff) but since he is at work it was a chance for me to get a bit more involved. We spent the morning talking over some of the views of the band and I was glad that my son had questions about some things that they had to say. We talked it over and while he does enjoy their music he will admit it is not music that draws one into worship of the Lord, it is more for entertainment. We both agreed though that Jesus is and should be in every aspect of our lives and we should never try to say well this is my job/career but in my personal life I follow Jesus. He does see that as a real question mark where the group is concerned.

SO anyway probably way more infor then you ever had interest in getting:-)

God Bless
mj

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sermonindex

Actually MJ... I'm very familiar with Switchfoot. Disappointed that they don't take a strong stand publicly for Jesus, but ya know, that's between them and the Lord. What I do for a living doesn't necessarily declare the Lord's name before all mankind. How I do my job, how I treat my clients, my integrity... thats what I hope brings honor to the Lord.

If the guys in Switchfoot were Dentists or something no one would care. But because they create music then every Christian out there thinks they should give an alter call in every single song.

This will draw some flames from some here... but I dont think that every song has to be a declaration of salvation. Phil Keaggy has put out a ton of CD's of just instrumental music. One of the best guitarists in the world... and loves the Lord. But sometimes he releases a CD of just him jamming on his guitar. Some people write love songs. Some people write songs about nature. Some about social injustice.

And thats kinda where Switchfoot comes into play. They have a positive message, and they speak into the culture. They dont just write dumb lyrics like most rock groups. Their stuff is very thought provoking.

And musically they are very creative... which is SORELY lacking in Christian music.

I actually enjoy Switchfoot from time to time. And I know they reason that they dont want to be known as a Christian band because as soon as they do that... the world at large tunes them out.

My only thing with Switchfoot is ok... you're making people think about this life, and addressing social issues... but are you offering any solutions? There is only One solution.

So basically all that to say that I am conflicted about Switchfoot. On one hand I appreciate the creativity and the message they put out there... but on the other hand... I dont know that they are offering up the solution.

Krispy

G
ginnyrose

I did a search on the web for articles that expose the dangers of 'Christian' rock.

In looking at the dangers of rock music, I found a presentation by Eric Holberg on YouTube "Hell's Bells". Eric also compiled the video "The Massacre of Innocence" which looks at the occultic origins of abortion. It takes a strong emotional constitution to look at that without getting sick. The same can be said for "Hell's Bells".

However, since I would guess that most who frequent SI will agree that secular rock music is indeed from the Enemy, one needs to look at what is dubbed "Christian Rock." Since this is more of a recent phenomon, many writings are copyrighted, prohibit a reposting on another online site unless you have written permission to do so.

I did find this one and am posting it here for your prayerful consideration. ginnyrose
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Contemporary Christian Music - Is it wrong?

Dear precious Sisters,
In printing this article on Contemporary Christian Music, we want you to know that it is our deep desire not to offend anyone! Please! Do not take it as such. We realize that many of you do listen to CCM, and in fact, we used to do the same ourselves. We certainly do love all of you, no matter what our differences may be, but we still thought it might interest you to at least know where we stand, and why we stand where we do, on this issue. Please prayerfully consider the following article with an open heart and mind, and then we would be delighted to hear your comments and criticisms...=)
Love from your “trembling” sisters,
Summer and Melody


WARNING: Some parts of this article may not be suitable for some of our younger readers. Please consult with your parents before reading! - Ed.

What should we think of contemporary Christian music (CCM)? In this discussion, CCM includes Christian rock music, Christian rap music, and Christian “pop” music.

The CCM issue is clearly one of criteria— what criteria should we use to assess music? What rule or standard or yardstick should we use to measure or evaluate CCM?

Two well-known contemporary Christian musicians have offered their opinion on this “criteria” issue:
David Meece: “Basically you have to focus on the lyrics, and what the song is saying. That is my criteria to decide whether the song is right or wrong. It has nothing to do with the music style. It has to do with the lyrics. What is the song saying? What are the words saying? As Christians, we can objectively judge it from that standpoint.”

Sandi Patti: “Music is a very powerful force. It has a way of breaking down barriers....But a lot of artists are taking that very powerful tool and putting negative, horrible lyrics to it, and those lyrics are getting into the hearts of the listeners and are shaping their values....Why can’t we [i.e., contemporary Christian musicians] take that same powerful force — music — put positive lyrics to it and begin shaping values that way?”

If Meece and Patti are right, then CCM is more than just okay—it is a powerful spiritual weapon that we must use.

I believe, however, that both Meece and Patti are wrong. First, they ignore the fact that God’s Word offers criteria for evaluating music that is different from theirs. Second, they both assume (and this is an important word) that we must evaluate music solely on the basis of its lyrics. They assume that the music itself apart from the lyrics is morally neutral, or that the music itself apart from the lyrics communicates no message. These are false assumptions. Tunes or melodies communicate messages regardless of lyrics (or, to put it another way, there is always a message implicit in the music). Bad music that contains “good” lyrics still transmits a bad message. What Meece and Patti (and most other defenders of CCM) do is “rig the game”: they begin by setting the rules for assessing CCM, but their rules guarantee that CCM will come out in a favorable light.

Before I continue, I must clarify something. I’m sure that most CCM performers are well-intentioned and sincerely think that they are doing what is right. Of course, good intentions and sincerity are no guarantees that one is right. And it would be a foolish thing indeed if we blindly assume that CCM performers are mature spiritually, or if we assume that CCM is okay simply because we like it.

I. Criteria For Evaluating Conte
mporary Christian Music:

A. Recall Philippians 4:8: Finally, brethren, whatever things are true (or represent truth), whatever things are noble, whatever things are just (or right), whatever things are pure (or untainted by sin), whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report (or good reputation), if there is any virtue (or moral excellence) and if there is anything praiseworthy— meditate (or think) on these things.

This verse obviously applies to music because music is something that we meditate on or allow our minds to dwell upon. Philippians 4:8 clearly has much to say about a song’s lyrics. All people — even CCM performers like Meece and Patti — agree that a song’s words must be true, noble, morally excellent, and worthy of praise if that song is to be acceptable.
But notice what else Philippians 4:8 says. Good music must be of good report (the New American Standard Bible provides the literal translation “of good repute”). In other words, good music must be of a good reputation, or be wholly disassociated with things that are wrong or contrary to God. If something is okay in itself but it is strongly linked to or associated with something else that is evil, then that thing has a bad reputation. It has a bad report. This is a principle that we all accept. I’ll give you an example: Do you think it is okay for me to go into a store and buy a Coca-Cola? Yes. But do you think it is okay for me to go into a bar or a saloon and buy a Coca-Cola? Even though buying a Coca-Cola is obviously okay, when I buy one in a bar I associate that Coca-Cola (and myself) with things that are evil. It would not be right for me to go into a bar and buy a Coca-Cola because wicked things have given my innocent act a bad reputation or a bad report. Philippians 4:8, then, says that your music must be associated only with good or righteous things. Your music cannot resemble or be linked to things that are evil. If your music is identified with music that is evil or wrong, then your music is not of good report. Clearly CCM is linked to secular rock, rap, and pop music. Indeed, CCM performers consciously try to “cross over” and appeal to non-Christian audiences by making their music sound just like that of non- Christians. Don’t many CCM performers dress just like secular musicians? Don’t they sport hairstyles just like secular musicians (and in disobedience, I might add, to 1 Corinthians 11)? Don’t many male CCM performers go so far as to wear earrings, while some female CCM performers wear clothing that is by any definition immodest?

No one will deny that secular rock and rap music has a bad reputation. Is CCM linked to or associated with secular rock music? Is it sometimes hard to tell the difference between CCM and secular rock music? Do most people see a connection or a similarity between CCM and secular pop music? The answer to these questions, I think, is yes— which means that CCM is not of good repute and therefore does not pass the Philippians 4:8 test.

B. Notice something else about Philippians 4:8. Good music must be pure. This means that good music can not have bad stuff mixed in with it. Music that is 95% good and 5% bad is not pure. Good music, then, must be completely free from contamination or pollution. Does this seem unnecessarily strict? If so, it is only because you don’t realize how important your “thought life” is to God. Because your thoughts shape your character, God is very concerned with (and very strict about) what you set your mind upon. That is why your music must be pure. The Bible says that the world taints and makes impure (James 1:27; 2 Peter 2:20). In other words, when worldly things are mixed with or introduced into something, impurity results. Is CCM worldly? Does CCM liberally borrow from the world and adopt the world’s practices? The answer, I think, is obvious. This is serious. Romans 12:2 says “be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.” (Compare Ephesians 4:23 and 1 John 2:15-17.) This means that God commands us to not live like everyone else. Our lifestyle cannot match up to or be similar to that of other people. If a kind of music sounds like the world’s music, looks like the world’s music, and is marketed like the world’s music, then that music is worldly (what else could “worldly” mean?). Worldly music is impure music.

Is CCM worldly music?
—On Stryper, perhaps the most famous “Christian heavy metal band,” Rolling Stone magazine says, “The band looks and sounds like a bunch of standard-issue hard rockers: polished, guitar-dominated music, glittery yellow and black outfits, shaggy long hair and a flashy stage show.” Stryper no longer uses overtly Christian lyrics in their songs. The band said, “You won’t pick up this record and hear anything that says ‘God’ or ‘Christ.’ That was intentionally done.”

—Rolling Stone magazine said this about Amy Grant: “Regarding her album covers and publicity photos, which portray her as a sexy, attractive young woman, the Christian pop star says, ‘I’m trying to look sexy to sell a record....I feel like a Christian young woman in the Eighties is very sexual.” The video for Grant’s recent song “Baby, Baby” portrays the married singer flirting with a young male actor. Grant responds: “If somebody says, ‘You’re trying to go secular,” I say, ‘Of course I am: That’s the whole point.’”

—With regards to Sandi Patti, The Saturday Evening Post writes that “One of the reasons she attracts the adulation of young fans is her thoroughly modern look, sound and style.”
—Sheila Walsh’s new album, according to Newsweek, “artfully mixed the sacred and sexy.”
—Commenting on CCM, Time writes that CCM performers are “indistinguishable — except for their lyrics — from their secular counterparts.”
The above testimony reveals that even non-Christians recognize that CCM is worldly music. Worldly music is not pure music. Impure music fails the Philippians 4:8 test.

This issue of purity is actually a much larger issue that I will only briefly comment on here. Some people would argue that it doesn’t matter how you reach people with God’s truth just so long as you reach them. Any method of proclaiming God’s Word is valid, these people say, so long as it works. They are really saying that the end justifies the means— which is a sinister and dangerous principle. Indeed, the Catholic Church adopted this strategy around 300 A.D. with regard to pagan rites and celebrations. Rather than telling their converts that they had to give up their false religions, their idols, their holy days, and their superstitious beliefs, the Catholic Church “christianized” those pagan things and allowed them to remain.
This is why the Catholic Church began to worship saints, instituted hundreds of unscriptural (and sometimes demonic) holy days, and developed elaborate ceremonial rituals. Instead of remaining pure and separate from the world, the Catholic Church tried to “baptize” worldly things and then retain them. We see where this unscriptural strategy took the Catholic Church. CCM does much the same thing. Instead of rejecting worldly music, CCM tries to “christianize” it.

Robert Pattison, a non-Christian scholar and a defender of secular rock music, makes this illuminating comment concerning CCM’s attempt to use secular musical forms for Christian purposes:
“Some dreamers have hoped to harness rock to propagate the values of transcendent ideologies. Populist Catholics sponsor rock masses, trendy educators produce textbooks using rock lyrics as a vehicle for inculcating traditional values, various Protestant denominations commandeer the airwaves on Sunday mornings to broadcast uplifting advice larded with rock songs to make the message palatable to young ears...But rock is useless to teach any transcendent value. The instigators of these projects merely promote the pagan rites they hope to co-opt. Rock’s electricity as much as its pantheistic heritage gives the lie to whatever enlightened propaganda may be foisted on it.”
Did you see what Pattison said? CCM performers only “promote the pagan rites they hope to coopt.” Though not a Christian, Pattison is confirming that “christianizing” secular music is a strategy that is doomed to fail. Rock music is simply too strong. The musical medium has a distorting influence on the message.

John Fischer, a prominent CCM performer, says something similar. He admits that “Some art forms have been created to express certain philosophies and are so wedded to those philosophies that they convey that kind of outlook....We can’t assume that we simply plug in a Christian message, and everything will be okay.”

Rock and rap music are so wedded to secular, godless themes that they communicate that outlook regardless of the song’s words.
C. Philippians 4:8 says that music must be morally excellent, noble or something that you could be proud of, and so beneficial that it is worthy of praise. Meece and Patti, you will recall, assume that this only applies to the lyrics of a song. They imply that a song’s music (i.e., the sound only) does not communicate a message. Is this true? No. A song’s music — regardless of the lyrics — does communicate a message. Many doctors, researchers, and musicians — many of them not Christians — agreed that a song’s music does communicate a message regardless of the words. Dr. Max Schoen, for example, writes in The Psychology of Music that “Music is the most powerful stimulus known among the perceptive senses. The medical, psychiatric and other evidence for the non- neutrality of music is so overwhelming that it frankly amazes me that anyone should seriously say otherwise.” (And yet people like Meece and Patti say otherwise!) Dr. William J. Shafer, a non-Christian sociologist, writes similarly that “Rock is communication without words, regardless of what ideology is inserted into the music.” Professor Frank Garlock says that “The words only let you know what the music already says....The music has its own message.” The primary message of CCM lies in its music, not in its lyrics.

If all music (regardless of the lyrics) has a message, then what is the message communicated by the music of CCM? CCM uses the same style of music as does secular, non-Christian rock music; therefore, CCM’s music communicates the same message as secular rock and rap music! Nearly all of the effects produced by contemporary music’s beat, repetition, and loudness are negative. Rock music is mildly hypnotic and can become addictive. Rock music produces chemical reactions in your body that encourage aggressive and emotional behavior. Those same physiological reactions prevent you from thinking and judging rationally. By the same token, contemporary music’s beat, repetition, and loudness unmistakably convey a mood of defiance, rebelliousness, aggressiveness, and self-assertiveness. Clearly these effects are neither “morally excellent” nor “noble” nor “praiseworthy.” Bad music, regardless of comparatively “good” lyrics, communicates a bad message.

How is it that music can affect me? The music itself, regardless of the words, affects your emotions. Even if there are no words to a song or a tune, it affects you. Everybody knows this. Lullabies put babies to sleep regardless of the words. National anthems can at times create feelings of pride or move listeners to tears. Some of the most powerful music ever written — like Beethoven and Wagner — contained no words. Ask any young person why they like rock music and they always say something about the beat or tempo. They are admitting that, regardless of the words, the music itself is quite powerful.
This is important. It means that “good” words does not make something good music. Regardless of the "good" lyrics, the musical score itself has an impact on the listener. Assessing music as good or bad or acceptable or unacceptable, is not simply a matter of evaluating the words. You must evaluate the tune also, because the sounds themselves affect you.

D. Philippians 4:8 says that your music must not only be “not bad,” but that it must be positively good. In other words, it is not enough for the music to be free of evil— the music must strongly communicate a positive message. Is it true that CCM’s lyrics are positively good? Most CCM, it is true, does not contain profanity, does not talk about sex, and does not glorify violence. But do these songs express deep, meaningful spiritual truths (such as you read in old Isaac Watts hymns)? Does CCM teach good, solid theology? Doesn’t CCM usually express a light, flippant, and shallow view of Christianity? I, for one, have rarely heard a CCM song that expresses profound or meaningful spiritual truth.

Christianity Today commented in 1987 that CCM sales were slumping because of CCM performers’ “lack of spiritual commitment and meaningful lyrics.” John Styll, editor of Contemporary Christian Music magazine, complained that “Some ‘Christian’ songs today are so veiled in terms of spiritual content that their meaning is lost to all but the most imaginative.” In other words, Styll was saying that CCM doesn’t even communicate a good message in its lyrics. “Many singers,” writes Christianity Today, “have softened their Christian message in an effort to ‘cross over’ into the secular marketplace. But many now say this practice has damaged their credibility with Christian audiences while blunting their impact on secular customers.”

While it is true that CCM’s lyrics are not filthy, vulgar, or wicked, neither are they positively good. Most CCM lyrics — especially the recent “Christian rap” of performers like DC Talk and Mike-E — contains a weak message or no message at all. At best, these songs encourage a superficial and flippant understanding of spiritual things. At worst, listeners simply ignore the empty lyrics and allow the sensual, rebellious music to influence them.

E. “Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. For our God is a consuming fire.” (Hebrews 12:28-29) Many, many times we are exhorted by Scripture to fear God and to have reverence for Him. How does this relate to music? If I really fear God, if I really am overwhelmed by His holiness and dignity, if I have great respect for God’s dignity, if I am truly zealous for His Name and His glory, then I will make sure that my music is appropriate for glorifying God. Not only must the words be appropriate for the glorifying of God, but the sound or melody must befit the majesty, the purity, and the holiness of God. I will ask questions like these: Is this music — both words and melody — suitable for glorifying God?

Does this music — both words and melody — cheapen divine things or trivialize spiritual truth? Does this music encourage a non-serious or frivolous view of religion? Might it lead a listener to think that God is Someone that you can play games with or treat lightly?

Does this music — both words and melody — handle sacred truth in a sacred way? Is the music compatible with or complementary of the sacred things of which it claims to speak?

If this music bears Christ’s name (as CCM does), then does it — both words and melody — also bear the marks of Christ’s character? Does this music reflect His holiness, His righteousness, His purity, and His majesty? CCM fails here. It is not a suitable medium for glorifying God. CCM cheapens spiritual truth and encourages irreverent attitudes toward God. Even in songs where the words are okay or even good, CCM employs a type of music or sound that is not appropriate for worshipping God. The sound of CCM is, at very least, casual and worldly.
I realize that this concern may make little sense to some of my readers. We Americans have, unfortunately, grown up in a generation that doesn’t understand what it means to fear God. We have no sense of God’s holiness. We play with sacred things flippantly. We rarely tremble at the fact that our God is a consuming fire. Incredibly, we think that if something is good enough for us, then it must be good enough for God. But Hebrews 12:28-29 merely alludes to something that is suggested over and over in the Bible: God is so holy that many things, actions, or attitudes are simply not appropriate before Him. If you have low views of God’s holiness, then you won’t appreciate my concerns here. But the more you appreciate God’s sacredness, the more you will be concerned about the appropriateness of your music.

A former CCM performer, writing in the mid-1980s, put this well. He said that "For three years I sat under the sound of biblical teaching and those years revolutionized my life. Very soon I learned what the gospel was, and as soon as I did so doubts arose in my mind as to the suitability of rock as a medium for the gospel....When I saw the seriousness of the gospel I saw the paradox of using a non-serious medium to try to convey it." The musician realized that his “Christian music,” despite his good intentions, actually communicated a non-serious attitude.

II. Other Questions To Ask About Contemporary Christian Music
A. When you listen to CCM, what effect does it have on you? What happens when you listen to it? Do you find yourself worshipping God in spirit and in truth? Do you begin thinking about Bible verses or Scriptural truths? Do you think about God? Are you convicted of sins and failings in your life?

Or do you get pumped up? Do you get psyched? Do you simply start “feeling good”? Do you start playing “air guitar” or “air drums”? Do you feel like getting rowdy?

If you listen to CCM because it produces the second effect, then that should tell you that your music is dangerous. Your music is not glorifying God.

A seventeen-year-old girl from Texas testifies that CCM — despite its “good” words — communicates a bad message through its beat and melody. CCM encouraged her not to worship, but rather to be sexually immoral. She writes: “I would like to share a testimony concerning my experience with ‘Christian rock’ music. I had listened to this music with my friends and at church social functions for several years before I got my own tape, recorded by a famous artist. Buying that tape was the biggest mistake of my life. Under its influence, my moral convictions began to dissolve and I allowed myself to become involved in a relationship with a boy from my church, against my parents wishes. When we were together we listened to ‘Christian’ and ‘soft rock’ music. It was all sensuous and destroyed my inhibitions. I am so ashamed of what happened. The music made me rebellious and pulled me away from my family. I thank God that I can say today that I have not listened to this harmful music for several months now, and I feel a freedom I had not experienced before.”
A fifteen-year-old student from Ohio agrees. He writes that “When I got into secular rock music I was bombarded by many sensual thoughts. Those that think that ‘Christian rock’ is OK because of the words, are wrong. When I listen to that type of ‘Christian’ music, I have the same reaction.” A twenty-one-year old student from Washington writes that rock music “has had a definite bad impression on me. It makes me feel rebellious, and I just have weird feelings when I play it. To me, ‘Christian rock’ is no different than regular rock. It still gives me those wrong feelings.” A sixteen-year-old student from Missouri writes that “I have many contemporary Christian music tapes, and I find when I listen to them that I get a rebellious spirit.”

B. Who is it that is always defending CCM? Who is most vocal in arguing that CCM is actually good? Aren’t CCM’s primary defenders a) the unsaved; b) teenagers who, if they are Christians, must certainly be babes in Christ; or c) people who have only a questionable claim to being Christian? I’m struck by how no spiritually mature men that I know rally to the defense of contemporary Christian music. In other words, it is the spiritually weak that argue that CCM is good.

I’ll briefly mention a related issue. CCM makes songwriters and performers our spiritual leaders. By listening to their songs, we are shaped by their music. Are CCM composers and performers qualified to be our spiritual leaders? Does the fact that someone can put words to rhyme or possesses a good voice necessarily mean that they are qualified to teach us spiritually? Certainly this is a frightening phenomenon. At the same time when young people increasingly ignore preaching and pastoral counseling — indeed, young people often find pulpit teaching boring — they flock to CCM as their source of spiritual nourishment. Little surprise that our children are not saved, and know so little about the great doctrines of our faith?

C. Many young people testify that listening to CCM harmed them. Listening to CCM led many to listen to secular rock and rap music. In other words, CCM is a dangerous “slippery slope.” A few testimonies:

A sixteen-year-old student from Oklahoma: “I began to listen to ‘Christian rock’ without the blessing of my father. He told me that if I listened to ‘Christian rock’ it would open the door for Satan. I just laughed, and listened anyway. It totally deadened my Christian growth and led to terrible immorality, rebellion, and rejection of God. It then developed into secular, hard rock. Now all I can do is go back and pick up the pieces. But I still have a scar in my life that will never be removed.”

A twenty-one-year-old student from Michigan: “‘Christian rock’ has hindered my life because the only real difference between ‘Christian rock’ and secular rock is the words. The beat, rhythm, and the melody are not different; they are the same. It does not matter whether I listen to secular or ‘Christian rock,’ when the songs are over, I feel the same. I feel an emptiness in my soul, a heavy burden.
Even ‘Christian rock’ sometimes makes me feel like going out and getting rowdy or even hurting someone else if they provoke me.”

An eighteen-year-old student from Oklahoma: “When I was twelve or thirteen years old, I was given some ‘Christian rock’ tapes by my parents because they thought I was getting into secular music. The truth is, I was getting into some bad music. The ‘Christian rock’ dominated my life for over a year until I could not get the same satisfaction I received the first time I heard it. I went to secular rock music and kept this desire and sin from my parents. I started out on soft music and grew to pop/rock-type music. It was not long before my desire grew to ‘hard rock’ and ‘progressive’ stuff. I started getting into drinking and going to dance clubs. Minor recreational drugs came in and soon my life was going down the drain. One night while drinking, I fell into immorality and my life was devastated....I feel very deeply that if I had not started out in ‘Christian rock’ I would have been convicted about the bad music I got into. Maybe I would not have messed up my life so much.”

A twenty-year-old student from Oklahoma: “When I used to listen to rock music it hindered my spirit and caused a rebellious attitude. I can tell you that when I hear ‘Christian rock’ music, it makes no difference what the lyrics are. It is the music that causes the poor spirit and rebellious attitude.”

A sixteen-year-old student from Florida: “‘Christian rock’ music has probably been the biggest hindrance to my spiritual growth. When I first heard this kind of music, it really bothered my spirit. But then this music was brought into my church. The more I heard it, the less it bothered me. The less it bothered me, the more I listened to it. It wasn’t long before I was involved in secular rock music because I didn’t see any difference. This music caused me to resist the Lord and hold parts of my life back from Him. I was not able to have a freedom to truly serve Him and be totally dedicated to Him until I was willing to give up this music.”

A nineteen-year-old student from California: “I began listening to ‘Christian rock,’ and shortly thereafter I began a fast, steady pace downhill. This eventually led me into a totally backslidden state. I know that my own rebelliousness was the cause of my fall. However, ‘Christian rock’ entered into my life at a very crucial point and added fuel to the fire. I remember the specific day and the song I listened to first. I remember feeling rebellious— like I was going against what is considered acceptable by the standards of Godly people. Within weeks, maybe months, a very apparent breakdown of my conscience, morality, and appearance was evident.”

A seventeen-year-old student from Pennsylvania: “‘Christian rock’ and Christian contemporary music have, in my life, been stepping stones. Not stepping stones going up— but down. Just a few months of listening to ‘Christian rock’ and contemporary music led to a life of being controlled by acid rock. This quickly led to and encouraged rebellion, greed, moral impurity, and trying to protect my rights and hide from my parents.”

A fifteen-year-old student from Nebraska: “When I started listening to ‘Christian rock’ I slowly started to listen to just regular worldly rock (soft rock). Then I was listening to something harder and harder. It not only led me into worldly rock, but I was getting rebellious toward my parents, and I was having sensual and lustful thoughts. I also could not memorize or read God’s Word and understand it or retain it.”

III. How Can You Tell If A Piece of Music Is Acceptable or Not? Where do you “draw the line”?
Based upon the discussion above, and relying heavily on Philippians 4:8, I come up with the following “yardstick”:

1. Good music must have good lyrics. Lyrics must not only be not bad; they must be positively good (i.e., pass the Philippians 4:8 test).

2. Good music must have a good sound. The sound or tune itself can not be conducive of irrational thinking, aggression, or impulsiveness. Nor can the sound communicate a rebellious or defiant mood.

3. Good music cannot be associated with or linked to negative or questionable things. Good music must be pure. Good music cannot be worldly.

4. a) If music claims to be Christian, then (in addition to the above points) it must be music that befits God’s majesty. Christian music must be sober and reverential. Christian music must exemplify or display Christ’s character. b) If music does not claim to communicate a spiritual music (e.g., orchestral music), then (in addition to the above points) that music must be refined, balanced, sublime or subtle, and tranquil.

My conclusion is that much, if not all, of what is today called contemporary Christian music fails to measure up to this yardstick.

~http://www.pilgrimpromo.com/ywsh/issue4_music.htm

T
tjservant

This will draw some flames from some here... but I dont think that every song has to be a declaration of salvation. Phil Keaggy has put out a ton of CD's of just instrumental music. One of the best guitarists in the world... and loves the Lord. But sometimes he releases a CD of just him jamming on his guitar.

Here is a short [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cMMLTlJfpc]interview with Phil Keaggy[/url] that is worth watching. He truly is a man of God.

**edit**

His instrumental Christmas CD is amazing!

S
sermonindex

sigh... not wasting any more time on this.

Krispy

G
ginnyrose

I sense exasperation in some posters because they seem frustrated that others do not understand their view that rock music in by itself is neutral. Others disagree. Observation also teaches us that life's experiences will shape our perceptions/opinions on any issue. Now I would like to share mine. My experiences have been varied and it has not been until in recent years I see the dots being connected.

Many years ago we were exposed to concerned persons observation about the dangers of rock music. To me it made no sense. Samples of it was played to give us an idea what it sounded like but did not give it much thought because it did not invade my world, why bother?

Years later I spent time at a Crises Pregnancy Center as a volunteer counselor. We gave free pregnancy tests to whoever wanted one with the idea that if they were in a crises we would assist them through this time. If the clients were single we would do abstinence counseling, but always point them to Jesus. This was out goal and to accomplish it we relied totally on the leading of the Holy SPirit.

We live in the Bible belt which means that most of the people attend church sometimes. They are taught the WORD, they know the Scriptures. Most of my single clients professed to be Christians - we always asked them. But I was befuddled why so many were still fornicating with no motivation to repent, no remorse for sin. They did go to church, they knew what the Word said, but why the sinful lifestyles? One day inspiration hit me: ask them 'why do you go to church?' So I asked many clients and they all responded the same. First they acted stumped at the question, but I waited and finally they said they went because of the music. Oh. They went because they loved the music. I see. OK.

In the meantime I had a nephew who accepted the LORD as saviour but fell into sin, gross sin: drugs, fornication fueled on by his love for rock music. Eventually he was excommunicated from church. On day he went to Atlanta with an older female to attend a 'New Age" concert. While there he felt evil in the room, he saw demons on the stage. He left knowing that God is giving him one more chance to repent and that it is now or never. He was all broken up and called his parents at 3:00 AM and told them to come and get him in Atlanta and they lived here in Mississippi. They got up, went to Atlanta and picked him up. He experienced a real conversion and went around and told his drug buddies how they need to repent and everyone else he believed was living in sin. He was very active in witnessing for the LORD. But somewhere along the line he got lukewarm and he fell back into sin again, this time worse then ever before. Matthew 12:44,45 has now become a reality in his life. Rock music is his music of choice.

I have a 14 YO niece who is now into this music. And I fear greatly for her as well. Her brothers have rejected the Gospel as well.

In all of these situations rock music is the music of choice. They are so hard, they know what they need to do but seem powerless to do anything about it. My clients were hearing CCM in church - what is there about this music that does not produce conviction in the life of its hearers? This so unlike the music I heard when I was growing up.

I love my nephews, my niece, my clients. I am heartsick with their responses to temptation. It is not like as though they are ignorant. They are not. They have heard the Gospel many times but they choose to reject it. It is as though they are powerless to make any decisions for the LORD.

This, my dear brothers and sisters, is why I am so passionately against any music they will lure young immature Christians away from God. Jesus has a few unflattering words in Matthew 18:6 for those who offend. While I Know Jesus was talking about young children we could easily apply this to young Christians.

In the meantime we grieve and we pray. People on SI will often say "Please come, Lord Jesus" and I say "Wait a little bit longer, please Jesus, there are still so many wandering out in sin" and these are my kinfolks I am concerned about. Eternity is long time to spend separated from God. There will never be a release from the fires of hell. Visualize that for a few minutes and you can go crazy.

This is my concern and grief.

ginnyrose

J
jmooney6

Hello Fellow Brothers and Sisters,

Everybody here makes an excellent point (Sister Ginny about the dangers of CCM, Brother Krispy being led to Christ through an unorthodox means). Some of the testimonies of seeing demons on the stage with the performers raise the hairs on the back of my neck! Being a musician and a recent convert, I never want that to happen to me.

What I'm about to describe is possibly very heart-wrenching. I think that the most dangerous music isn't so much any genre of CCM that attempts to glorify Christ and spread His message (which is some of CCM), but rather deceptive rebellious music. I mean, Sister Ginny has explained quite well the "why" of how certain genres spark rebellion and worldliness in its listeners and should be avoided, especially by those who are spiritually immature. Of course, the spiritually blinded have a more dangerous enemy, and that is dangerous lyrics that say "Lord, Lord" but work iniquity to the point of possibly causing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit! Lyrics set to a quiet, nice style of music.

An example of what I mean is someone we [i]must[/i] pray for, Karen Taylor-Good, songwriter, performer, a goat who calls herself a Christian. I met her back in 2005 before coming to Christ the first time, and indeed she was one of those people who got me interested in Christianity. I used to really love her CD "[url=http://www.karentaylorgood.com/store_book.htm]On Angel's Wings[/url]" (NOTE: if you're easily offended, spare yourself and please don't click to read the titles.)

Of course, fast-forward to now, coming to Christ for a second time and working with Him to grow spiritually, I dusted off the CD to give it a listen. Why not, it's Christian, right? First track, there's a "yikes" (Jesus always gives to those who ask according to His Will, but His answer isn't just sometimes a random 'no' without a good reason, a reason which can always be found in Scripture, even if it's just 'His timing'), then a "where's Jesus?" for track 2, then we get to the third song! First of all, the song holds the wrong belief that we'll become angels in the Real Life. Jesus said we'll become [i]AS[/i] angels, not become angels, as we'll be judging the angels and other things in Heaven, right? Wait, the song gets worse. One of the lyrics says that she calls out to "the Heavenly One, 'why would you play such a cold-hearted trick?!'" (referring to her mother getting Alzheimer's). Such an audacious, rebellious lyric! I'm pretty sure this is [i]not[/i] the way to be talking to God in prayer, showing Him no reverence, no fear, no respect, no love, no worship, no praise, no thanks! Where's the repentance Brothers and Sisters, the remorse for any sins transgressed from the day, the praise that He alone deserves?! No, she instead calls out to God in hatred and spite, "Why me?!" This appears to be the fruit of a spiritual infant, if that. Brothers and Sisters, can you see how damaging this can be to the spiritually blind, people who think they're Christians "because they prayed a prayer once" (Paul Washer), but don't have a clue as to the first thing about Christianity? Do you see how this could possibly set the example to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, to grieve Him, to have the danger of losing Him forever?!

The fourth song was just alright, no sign of Jesus again. The fifth song was about being kind to others, one of the fruits of the Born Again Christian. (Of course, that second part wasn't mentioned.) The song "Real Men Cry", I don't remember her mentioning once that the Lord Jesus and God the Father weeps over the lost, that the Holy Spirit can be grieved as well if we backslide. "Real", the Wisdom of, no, not King Solomon, not Paul who was Saul, not even Jesus...

[i]the Wisdom of Pinocchio[/i]... (a pause for laughter or weeping, depending on who's reacting). "Take off your mask (of pretending to be someone you aren't, i.e. putting on airs) and feel real." Who is really wearing the mask of putting on airs here?

I think reading the title, "The Eleventh Commandment", should clue you in as to the point I've had my fill. First of all, the lyrics of the track are quite graphic and I couldn't even get through the whole thing. Second of all, she BOLDLY ADDS TO OUR FATHER'S TEN COMMANDMENTS! HOW DARE SHE ADD TO THE LAW OF GOD THAT WAS ALREADY FULFILLED THROUGH HIS SON, JESUS THE CHRIST! (This is NOT self-righteousness. This is an outrage on God's behalf, because I love Him and can't stand that this is what she thinks Christianity is about! I'm weeping, are you weeping?) "Honor thy children?!" What about "Honor God above all things?!" How about "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes." from Proverbs 13:24?! That doesn't mean abuse your children, of course, but bring them up correctly with a pure loving heart and a nice branch! What is so wrong with the Biblical model? Oh, right, Karen listens to the Wisdom of a mystical magical wooden puppet, not King Solomon, my mistake.

The point is, I agree with Sister Ginny that there is plenty of music out there that is detrimental to the spiritual well-being of the Born Again Christian. Most spiritually blind Christians think to themselves, "Yuck, Christian Rock?! It sounds like the devil's music!" The CD I described above has a real possibility of not only causing backsliding but outright blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, the unpardonable sin! This type of CD is much more vile, more deceptive, more wicked than "Christian Rock". It's soothing. It feels good. It gives a picture of a false Christianity that is appealing to the fleshly human mind. It deals with life's issues in a secular humanist manner (i.e. no Scripture to be found, unless you count all the scripture twisting/adding and the treating of God as a means to accomplish something and a monster who plays cruel tricks).

I don't mean to come off as cantankerous and judgmental. Karen is one of the reasons I was interested in Christianity back in 2005 (also my upbringing as well from two excellent parents).

Rather, let us pray not only for those being deceived by Christian Rock and Rap, but for anyone being deceived by rebellious secular humanist music posing as Christianity. Let us pray for Karen Taylor-Good.

*****

So Sister Ginny, can you help point us to some of the music you like to listen to or think is excellent and praiseworthy? We need some good stuff to listen to. ;-)

G
ginnyrose

Jim, your testimony is so profound. Brother, at the moment all I can say is stay so close to the LORD that you will never, ever be tempted to go back as my nephew has done. My heart is so burdened for you because the LORD has redeemed you and the enemy is NOT going to leave you alone. He is going to come back at you with a vengeance with all his forces to draw you back. Do you get what I am saying?

Ok, now you asked me:
"So Sister Ginny, can you help point us to some of the music you like to listen to or think is excellent and praiseworthy? We need some good stuff to listen to."

Jim, I hardly know how to answer this question. There is a lot of good music out there. My taste changes as I accumulate birthdays. I used to enjoy Southern Gospel, the [early] Gaithers and still have their recordings. But since then I have learned that most performers are merchandising the Gospel via of music which in turn turned me off. (This is personal opinion.) So what is there left to enjoy? I can tell you that I thoroughly enjoy "Dallas Christian Sound", all acapella sung by choirs. Many of these recordings are produced by the Church of Christ. My favorites are choirs. But having said this I do get tired of it, too. It is like eating broccoli for lunch, for supper on Monday; on Tues, same menu and on Wed. more of the same. Broccoli is nutritious for the body but tiresome for the taste. So it is when I listen to only one kind of music.

What I really love is music that I can sing along with. I will play "Dallas Christian Sound" or something similar when driving long distances. While I am driving I will sing along, singing alto to my hearts content. When I reach my destination, my heart is so rejuvenated, so refreshed like as though I just woke up from a good nap and ready to get to work!

Jim, perhaps it might be helpful to know what kind of sound you best appreciate so one can know what to recommend. But since you were into rock maybe it might be helpful for you to start listening to the classics, like Bach, Handel to retrain your mind? I don't know..someone may come along here and shoot this idea down. But one thing I would strongly encourage you and that is to make this a matter of serious prayer. You ask God to show you what is His will for you and what will bring honor to Him. He can bring good music to you. Or, maybe you will just have to make your own. Get a hymn book and learn those songs and sing them! That is so much fun. (After our 25 YO daughter died the LORD led me to take a hymn book and just start singing the songs as they appear in the book - much like reading a book. This blessing was awesome! God was honored and I was comforted! Can't get any better then that, can you?) God is much more interested in this matter then you will ever be. This will be the safest thing for you to do.

God bless you, Jim. I will pray for you that you will remain faithful.

ginnyrose

G
ginnyrose

I googled "Effects of music on the brain" and found this article. (There is more on the web and I would urge all to do their own research.) Here is the link; It is a very informative article.
http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n15/mente/musica.html

Here is a quote from this article:
“Another key to the order in music is the music being the same and different. The brain works by looking at different pieces of information and deciding if they are different or the same. This is done in music of the baroque and classical periods by playing a theme and then repeating or changing the theme. The repetition is only done once. More than one repetition causes the music to become displeasing, and also causes a person to either enter a state of sub-conscious thinking or a state of anger. Dr. Ballam goes on to say that, "The human mind shuts down after three or four repetitions of a rhythm, or a melody, or a harmonic progression." Furthermore, excessive repetition causes people to release control of their thoughts. Rhythmic repetition is used by people who are trying to push certain ethics in their music.”

ginnyrose

S
sermonindex

Oh no... you're not gonna tell us about plants dying and stuff... are you?? :-)

Krispy

G
ginnyrose

Hey, brother, don't worry! The focus is not on plants. But on the effects of sound on living things, like people and rats and ...(EDIT)

Seriously, you may want to study that article...

ginnyrose

J
jmooney6

God bless you Sister Ginny for that article. I didn't even realize! Rock music, rap music, even dance music with its many beats, they're all the same.

One thing I've noticed (before being saved) over the years is how recordings are being mastered (meaning the final production of how a recording sounds after mixdown). The more "modern" the recording, the louder and brighter the final master would get.

http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/

The animation on the front page there shows the progression from a track with dynamics to squashed up garbage.

Not only that, but there's this line of thinking about making music brighter sounding. Modern recordings these days have much more high-end than before.

The article mentioned a bright music concert boiling an egg! BOILING AN EGG! What is that same music, when listened to on headphones, doing to our brains?! I shudder to think how far gone my brain has gone.

That being said, why are people trying to out-loud one another? From the secular standpoint, many producers are getting sick and tired of the "louder is more impressive" way of thinking. From our standpoint, I think I know who is pulling the reigns behind the "louder is better" thinking.

Let's think about the points you were trying to point out Sister Ginny. Loud music = rebellious attitudes. Repetition = ingraining of a song's ideals into the sub conscious and anger provocation. It's quite easy to see why people listening to Christian Rock become rebellious, angry, indoctrinated by what the music says.

Of course, that's not to diminish the fact that people do get saved in many unorthodox ways before learning more about our Lord.

T
TaylorOtwell

Just trying to make an unbiased observation here, but don't almost all old hymns repeat the same melody for every verse?

The article states: "This is done in music of the baroque and classical periods by playing a theme and then repeating or changing the theme. The repetition is only done once. More than one repetition causes the music to become displeasing, and also causes a person to either enter a state of sub-conscious thinking or a state of anger"

Wouldn't hymns fall into the category of repetition, because the theme and melody is usually not changed for each verse, and it is often repeated 4-5 times?

With care in Christ...

G
ginnyrose

Taylor wrote:
"Wouldn't hymns fall into the category of repetition, because the theme and melody is usually not changed for each verse, and it is often repeated 4-5 times?"

Music/lyrics/poetry does have repetition. Much of CCM is nothing but repetition. At least this has been my observation.

Taylor, what songs are you referring to?

ginnyrose

T
TaylorOtwell

GinnyRose,

If you turn to almost any hymn in the hymnal, there is 1 tune for 4-6 verses and that tune is repeated exactly for each verse.

I was just pointing out that seeking to discredit certain forms of contemporary music because of repetition would disqualify most old hymn and metrical psalms.

With care in Christ...

G
ginnyrose

If you turn to almost any hymn in the hymnal, there is 1 tune for 4-6 verses and that tune is repeated exactly for each verse.

Brother, this is totally different from what you see in CCM.

From the first word until the last what are you hearing? Consider this song:

Does Jesus Care?

Does Jesus care when my heart is pained
Too deeply for mirth or song,
As the burdens press, and the cares distress
And the way grows weary and long?

Refrain

Oh yes, He cares, I know He cares,
His heart is touched with my grief;
When the days are weary, the long nights dreary,
I know my Savior cares.

Does Jesus care when my way is dark
With a nameless dread and fear?
As the daylight fades into deep night shades,
Does He care enough to be near?

Refrain

Does Jesus care when I’ve tried and failed
To resist some temptation strong;
When for my deep grief there is no relief,
Though my tears flow all the night long?

Refrain

Does Jesus care when I’ve said “goodbye”
To the dearest on earth to me,
And my sad heart aches till it nearly breaks,
Is it aught to Him? Does He see?

Refrain

There are four verses and each verse presents a different scenario of life one may find himself in and the question asserts itself: Does Jesus Care? and (EDIT) the answer is given in the refrain.

Do you see the difference?

Blessings,
ginnyrose

T
TaylorOtwell

GinnyRose,

But not all CCM is repetitive. Many songs have different scenarios for each verse and present different teachings in each verse.

So, no, I don't see the difference.

Just for the record, this is coming from someone who isn't really a fan of CCM. I actually would prefer to just sing a capella Psalms in worship. I just appreciate consistent arguments for positions that are defended as truth, as hope to help others refine their arguments.

With care in Christ...

G
ginnyrose

Taylor,
Just why are you no fan of CCM?

I have the sense we are not communicating well.

ginnyrose

T
TaylorOtwell

I don't like most CCM because the lyrics aren't very rich. However, there are exceptions, such as "In Christ Alone".

It just seemed like the article about repetition was being used to show a reason why CCM is bad, and I don't think that is a good avenue to take because in the process it would fault almost all hymns and metrical psalms.

With care in Christ...

G
ginnyrose

Taylor,

I have been thinking a lot since I read your post and decided we may be talking about two different forms, similar but different.

Praise music: most of it is David's Psalms set to music. This came to the fore in the past 30 years, perhaps. If I recall the 'Jesus People' made this popular.

Modern CCM is a take off of rock music. It is marked by heavy drum use and loud noise, so loud it would damage your hearing if exposed to it too much. If you are not used to it it could drive you crazy. It is very fleshy; most of this
'music' is led by 'worship teams' which is performer driven. Oftentimes their music is so loud you cannot hear yourself sing. The leader will use it to drum up praise to the Almighty, "Sing louder!" This music is marked by repetition - one line repeated several times and then that verse sung many times. My mind goes to what Jesus had to say about vain repetition.

The spirit of scripture dealing with this issue is that music should honor, glorify God. One can easily sense God's pleasure in the music. If you go to a church house where this music is being played there is such an irritation in our spirit, making one wish we would not have to be there - the only reason we are is because we are visiting family that go there.

My thoughts...

ginnyrose

T
TaylorOtwell

GinnyRose,

For the most part, I agree with you. For public worship, I believe certain musical forms best convey the weightiness and seriousness of the music. Personally, it is my conviction that it is best to sing Spirit-inspired songs (Scripture songs, or Psalms) a capella, because I believe this transcends all musical preferences, cultures, and ages. But, that is perhaps beyond the scope of this discussion.

I am less dogmatic about what one listens to in their personal time, so long as the lyrics are not sinful.

With care in Christ...

G
ginnyrose

Taylor,

I was showing my husband my 'conversation' with you, reading out loud when I noticed something...this is what I missed in our conversation: "there is 1 tune for 4-6 verses and that tune is repeated exactly for each verse." It is the word 'tune'. I was reading it 'words"! Oh. Sigh. And I was responding accordingly. SIGH.

Thanks for your patience...

ginnyrose

T
TaylorOtwell

GinnyRose,

No problem. I'm sure I need even more patience extended towards me.

With care in Christ...

G
ginnyrose

In doing a search on the web "Rock music addictive" I find a lot of info that says it indeed is. In my search I found many worthy articles. For some I am am reluctant to post their link because I know so little about the writers and I do not have the time to check out the other stuff they promote on their site. If there is questionable ideas promoted it could well be it would discredit whatever good there may be. And that is the risk one takes for recommending any article or link.

Having said all this, there is one recurring theme in all of the articles I have read, so it appears the basic points are accepted as fact.

The more I read about the addiction quality of rock music, the more I am beginning to understand why my young relatives are involved in the lifestyle they are: they are addicted to rock music! Now, if only I could convince their parents of the seriousness of it, but they are so blind and ignorant, some by choice because knowledge will make demands that are not pleasant.

Here is a link that might teach you:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/14047098/Christian-Rock-Music-Wolf-or-Sheep

Blessings,
ginnyrose

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