Is there a such thing as Calvinistic Pentecostals?

I have grown up in a Pentecostal church all my life, and for the past four years I have almost driven myself to insanity trying to figure out what I believe. I believe in the operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but I also believe in the doctrine of Sovereign Grace. The problem is that I don't know of any church or preacher that believe's in both. Maybe Paul Washer, or John Piper (I don't know for sure), but does anyone know of any?

I remember hearing Paul Washer speak of his younger years when the Spirit of God would fall on congregations when he preached...

He also said he almost died spiritually trying to live off the memories of past experiences rather than going to God for present revelations of Himself.

A lot of what those who would identify themselves as "charismatic" usually have a reformed background of some sort. Of course, this is not always the case. But, such individuals as Art Katz were reformed in their theology in regards to salvation, but Pentecostal in view of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts.

Yes, there is such a thing.

C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries would be the most prominent example.

I actually visited the congregation in Crestview, FL a few years ago.

www.sovgracemin.org

Hi Timmy,

I think that an answer might be difficult to find simply because there are varying definitions for the words "Calvinist" and "Pentecostal."

I don't know many "calvinists" who embrace EVERY last tenant of Calvinism. In addition, I know some believers who reject the gifts of the Spirit who still consider themselves to be "Pentecostal." Even the extent in view regarding the "doctrine of Sovereign Grace" tends to vary from person-to-person and fellowship-to-fellowship. Do you see the difficulty with answering a question like the one found in the title of this thread?

That said: I do know some people who consider themselves "classical Pentecostals" who embrace at least some elements of Calvinist ideology. In fact, I attended a men's Bible study breakfast with a couple of Calvary Chapel congregations on Saturday. The speaker seemed to embrace some aspects of Calvinist thought. However, I have attended some Calvary Chapel congregations that held to the opposite view on the matter.

I agree with King Jimmy in that most "classical Pentecostal" fellowships tend to reject most of the tenants of Calvinism. As far as Paul Washer and John Piper are concerned, you might shoot them an email and ask about the extent of their views in regard to both Calvinism and Pentecostalism.

[b]I received a private message asking for more information on Sovereign Grace Ministries. I thought my response may be helpful to all, so here you go:[/b]

Thanks for the message.

Honestly, I didn't know they were charismatic at the time. I just liked C.J. Mahaney and knew that he was one of the leaders of that fellowship of churches. But, I've since learned more about them.

They have a traditional, historic understanding of the Five Points of Calvinism.

They have a much more physically expressive worship than you would typically find in a Reformed Presbyterian/Baptist church.

They believe in the continuing role of the gifts of the Spirit. Here is an excerpt from their statement of faith: "All the gifts of the Holy Spirit at work in the church of the first-century are available today, are vital for the mission of the church, and are to be earnestly desired and practiced."

That being said, they do believe that the gift of the Holy Spirit is received at the time of conversion.

They are Baptist in terms of the application of actual Baptism - they do not baptize infants.

I hope this helps you get a better feel for what they are like.

From my experience, they will be very sound on the gospel, loving, and very serious students of the Scripture.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

Piper's sermons on the gifts of the Spirit definitely seem to show his church to be charismatic reformed. Also, the guys who run the Reformation Theology website have written articles to the effect that they too are charismatic reformed. Sovereign Grace Ministries is definitely that. Me too.

However in modern practice more Pentecostals are becoming more open to OSAS type views. This view is rife within Charismatic Protestant circles.

A lot of this is probably due to the charismatic renewal movement of the 1960's causing a theological blur of sorts. Pentecostals, as you say, were historically Wesleyean/Arminian, and their experience of the baptism of the Holy Spirit pretty much kept them isolated in their own little respective camps. But when people with other theological persuasions began to experience the baptism of the Holy Spirit, this sort of opened classical Pentecostals to other theologies, and vice versa.

At my own church, though we have many people who have been Pentecostal most of their adult Christian lives, we've seen a lot of individuals coming from other theological persuasions. Indeed, I would say we have almost as many people in our church with a S. Baptist view of salvation as people who hold to an Arminian view. Thankfully, we all get along and there hasn't been a rift in the church. The love of God shed abroad in our hearts has kept us from biting and devouring one another :-)

One of the more popular systematic theologians of today who is definitely a Calvinist is Wayne Grudem. He is charismatic/pentecostal.

One of the more popular systematic theologians of today who is definitely a Calvinist is Wayne Grudem. He is charismatic/pentecostal.

Indeed. As it is, I believe most of the Evangelical church is becoming Pentecostal/Charismatic. Many even within dispensational theologies, which have almost always been cessationist, have started warming up to Pentecostal/Charismatic theologies.

Thanks for all the feedback. I checked out Sovereign Grace Ministries, I might go visit the church in Crestview. I also did some reading on Piper and Grudem. It is very exciting to see believers who hold to reformed doctrine and believe in experiencing the power of God.

Thanks again,
TimmyJoe

I was raised Pentecostal (Assembly of God) and even attended an Assembly of God university (Southeastern University in Lakeland, FL) and I am Reformed and have been for five years now. I am coming back to more of a Pentecostal pneumatology although I have gone through phases where I was technically Charismatic and Third Wave. John Piper is my favorite preacher. It was Piper and Wayne Grudem that convinced me of the doctrines of grace outside of the Bible. I like the multicultural emphasis in Pentecostalism. I think the Reformed camp could really learn a lot from Pentecostalism in that area. I also like Francis Chan, Louie Giglio, Michael Youssef, David Platt, and Sam Storms. As far as I know all of these men are Reformed in soteriology and continuationist when it comes to spiritual gifts.

Other well known Reformed continuationists would include:

Mark Driscoll
Tim Keller
Tope Koleoso
Adrian Warnock
Joshua Harris
Ed Stetzer
Beth Moore
Priscilla Shirer

And a few that have questionable theology in certain areas (at least from the perspective of some) that would include:

RT Kendall
Rick Warren
Tony Evans
Andy Stanley
John Wimber

And some recording artists such as:

Mandisa
Shane & Shane
Kirk Franklin (Tony Evans is his pastor)
Lecrae
Mainstay
Chris Tomlin
Kristian Stanfill
Fee
Christy Nockels
Anthony Evans

I'm sure that I've left out someone but these are some of the people that I have been encouraged by over the last few years. There is one man that I know of that embraced the Pentecostal label and was also Reformed. His name was Ern Baxter. There is a very good sermon that he preached that you can listen to on YouTube called "The Eagle Christian".

Also, check into the following organizations:

Sovereign Grace Ministries
NewFrontiers International
Acts 29
Association of Vineyard Churches (As I understand it, a good number of Vineyard churches hold to what amounts to a Reformed soteriology as something they call "living in the tension", a reference to their views on the Kingdom of God that were influenced by the Reformed theologian George Eldon Ladd.)

Indeed. As it is, I believe most of the Evangelical church is becoming Pentecostal/Charismatic. Many even within dispensational theologies, which have almost always been cessationist, have started warming up to Pentecostal/Charismatic theologies.

I know of a couple of notable examples. Tony Evans is a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary which is a Cessationist Dispensationalist seminary. But, Evans is sort of Bapticostal. He said in a book that I flipped through a few years ago that he believes in speaking in tongues and prophecy and all of that and that it's for today.

The other example is Francis Chan. He went to John MacArthur's Bible college but in his book on the Holy Spirit "Forgotten God", he says that while he was in Bible college, he was filled with the Spirit at a Charismatic prayer group.

Hi,

We have here in Sweden one calvinistic Pentacostal church.
They belong to the pentacostal movement here but hold to reformed doctrines.

The original Charismatics were the Puritans.

They were very "feeling" and "personal experience" based and still are.

You see it in all of their writings. Do you want examples?

In Christ,
Sarah

@ Krispy-

With all due respect your post just isn't quiet accurate.

YOU STATED:"The difference was that the Puritans dismissed any "feelings" or "personal experiences" that did not line up squarely with scripture"
I RESPOND: I generally agree. However, it must be said that they dismissed things that did not line up with their interpretation of scripture. Scriptural exegesis and study is only really helpful if we do not put our "interpretive" spin on things. If we read scripture with a mind to make it fit within our beliefs we are certain to never grow. Only as we are willing to let our understanding fit the scripture as opposed to making the scripture fit our beliefs can we truly continue to grow in Him. Whether the Puritans were always accurate is certainly open to debate. However, it is unquestionably true that they weighed things through the grid of scripture as they understood it... as should we.

YOU STATED: "Today the Charismatic movement is not that much concerned with sound doctrine and Biblical exegete. The Puritans were".
I RESPOND: As a person that has been part of and ministered within the Charismatic movement .... and had many, many ministers within it that are friends of mine....... I can with 100% certainly and assurance say that is a false accusation. Are there folks who aren't doing due justice to research and study in the Charismatic movement..OF COURSE! Are there folks in the Southern Baptist fellowship that are not doing due diligence in their research...OF COURSE! In any group..OF COURSE! This particular accusation is a false and slanderous charge. It is simply untrue as to the majority of Charismatic ministries. Perhaps it is a lack of understanding that movement that brings you to say that. Please, if your knowledge is from a couple of high profile TV ministries then just stay silent. You only see 1 piece of a 100,000 piece puzzle and are making a decision based on that. Decisions that I know first hand are mistaken.

YOU STATED: I would not call the Puritans "charismatic" or "Pentecostal" because doctrinally they were not.
I RESPOND: I would recommend that you read the writings of Jonathon Edwards. A man most regard as Americas foremost Puritan thinker and theologian as well as being God's instrument in the first Great Awakening. In particular you may wish to consider, "RELIGIOUS AFFECTIONS". It remains the gold standard on this topic to this day.
I believe you may find that Edwards was the first Vineyard pastor and Charismatic Calvinist in this country. Regardless, I will tell you this. I have earned degrees from fully accredited universities and also graduated from Rhema Bible Training Center, Ken Hagin's school. The teaching Jonathon Edwards and Ken Hagin Sr. gave on this issue are identical. I know..I was there...I heard it with my own ears. I have also have spent much time reading and absorbing Edwards. They were virtually identical on this matter.

I will close with a published synopsis review of Edwards, RELIGiOUS AFFECTIONS. I believe you will find it to be fascinating reading... and it may well open your thoughts to a much broader Puritan world that you currently are aware of. You may also find it interesting to note the phenomena and manifestations that accompanied the "joy" that happened after the time of conviction and repentance in that wonderful renewal of the First Great Awakening. You may find all of these things have a time and place in which God uses them. Conviction, repentance, renewal, joy, laughter, weeping, heart wrenching conviction followed by joy unspeakable and full of glory... and those may not fit your definition or preconceptions...just keep an open mind is all I am saying. The review follows-

Blessings,

Written in 1746 during the First Great Awakening, Religious Affections remains an important and challenging Christian treatise. Concerned that many people do not display true "religious affections," Jonathan Edwards attempts to "discern...wherein true religion does consist." Balancing between extreme "intellectualism" and extreme "emotionalism," Edwards argues that emotions are an important part of true religion, but that one must distinguish between legitimate and illegitimate emotions. He provides both "negative" or unreliable signs of true religious emotions, and "positive" or reliable signs of true religious emotions. Religious Affections is thus profitable for study even today, and many contemporary theologians and pastors have found Edward's work insightful and significant.

I don't necessarily agree with the tone of this writing, but it has some good information about experiences and Puritans.

Of course, it is difficult sometimes to interpret "tones" in writing, so just read and judge the material and forget about judging the tone. That is what I did and I got through the whole article. It was enlightening to me.

http://www.outsidethecamp.org/experience.htm

In Christ,
Sarah

@ KRISPY-

Just a couple of things-

1. I only mentioned "degrees" because I focused on history. It gave me a unique perspective to obtain a history degree with a Christian mindset that looked to see the hand of God moving in the course of Human history. My heart was to find how God had moved historically.. thus my deeper studies of Edwards and The First Great Awakening. My "sheepskins" are buried in boxes somewhere.. haven't seen them in years and years...couldn't care less. I mentioned Rhema because I know first hand. Not hearsay, misinterpreting a writing from a book, prooftexting what I want to find even if taken out of context, or listening to someone who went to school there....I know the truth first hand... and much of what is written against Hagin, Sr.is a flat accusatory lie.

2. You label the Charismatic movement in error. However, as I said, you are looking at a few guys and labeling a massive group of followers of Jesus in error. You did exactly in your post what I said you were doing. You took a few big name tv guys , that have virtually nothing to do with the movement , and label a whole group because of it. Again, I know the people. I know first hand. The accusations you are making are misguided and wrong. It seems you are certainly looking at 1 piece of a 100,000 piece puzzle... and unfortunately that has lead you to some incorrect conclusions. I know first hand that is so.

3. You say emotions do not make one Charismatic or Pentecostal. Who ever said they did? Certainly not me and certainly not my post. It is the belief in and experience of the infilling of the Hoy Spirit with the gifts, power to be witnesses, and blessings that accompany it that makes one experientially a Charismatic/Pentecostal/pick a stripe. In that case I agree with you... it is the doctrinal belief in, and experience of, this infilling/baptism of the Holy Spirit that establishes one as Charismatic/Pentecostal. However, emotions may accompany this in strong doses. They also may not... but they very well may. This does not make one a "heretic" because they experience emotions. God made us with them. I am amazed that you feel comfortable to stand as a self appointed judge as to whether my experience with God and the emotions it stirs in me are "of God". He has no need to ask you for permission to stir anyones emotions as He sees fit. The scripture says virtually nothing about how to judge EMOTIONS so you have basically zero to judge with. As Edwards would have said... you can only tell by the FRUIT in their lives... emotions or manifestations are absolutely of no importance... high emotion or low emotions... doesn't matter .. so quit using them as a means to judge...you really can't tell anything ... good or bad.. . from emotions or manifestations... you have to wait to see the fruit. (Wesley said this to by the way)

4. YOU STATE, "you and I would disagree on whether Charismatics are concerned about sound Biblical exegete. "
I RESPOND: I guess we will. I am Charismatic and extremely concerned over accurate teaching/preaching. I know perhaps another 250 or so ministers that would be considered Charismatic that are as well. Some Calvinists, some Arminians, some a mixture, but they are all excellent exegetes. Your statement is absolutely 100% incorrect. I know so. I know it first hand. You are falsely accusing folks you have no knowledge of. You only see 1 piece of a 100,000 piece puzzle in this case. Please, just hold your tongue. It is in error on this point.

5.YOU STATE: I'm not picking a fight with you! THEN you also say, "While I do not have all of your degrees", and "And you know what they are, or at least you should... since you have all of your degrees and everything. (By the way, I fired a guy with a PhD once. Degrees dont mean much to me" ,
I RESPOND: Someones got an internal issue.....or as Shakespeare said, "Me thinks thou dost protest to much".

Bottom line, I agree with Edwards. Hagin agreed with him as well. I know, I was there, I heard it again and again with my own ears. You are wrongly accusing ministries you know nothing about. You are speaking falsely against hundreds of Charismatic ministers. I know it for a fact. They are friends of mine and I know for 100% sure they are humble minded servants that love their flocks and are excellent exegetes of the scripture. I know it first hand and see it on a weekly basis. Please hold your tongue and quit falsely accusing those you know nothing of. That would be some good fruit to exhibit. IMHO

NOW..to bring the thread back on topic and take it off the hijack circuit...

Yes, there certainly are Charismatic Calvinists. I know many of them. Read Edwards for a look at one of the first and finest IMHO.

@Krispy-

On post 2011/10/3 at time marker 5:58 you posted ,

"Today the Charismatic movement is not that much concerned with sound doctrine and Biblical exegete"

This is what I was referring to. IE you are labeling the Charismatic movement this way... and that is in error.

In response I stated

I am Charismatic and extremely concerned over accurate teaching/preaching. I know perhaps another 250 or so ministers that would be considered Charismatic that are as well. Some Calvinists, some Arminians, some a mixture, but they are all excellent exegetes. Your statement is absolutely 100% incorrect. I know so. I know it first hand. You are falsely accusing folks you have no knowledge of.

That is specifically what I was referring to. Now... in fairness I will certainly admit that I also know guys in the Charismatic movement that I do not respect because of their laziness in this area.

There are Pentecostals, Baptists, Methodists, even some Episcopals that I hold in high esteem.... and others who I would never trust. It is like that with all groups. You have authentic people and phonies in every group.... therefore I passionately encourage people to judge by FRUIT and never generalize a group of people.

Nuf' said for my part. Hope we are on good terms.

Blessings Krispy. I just encourage you to cool the judgementalism down and give folks the benefit of the doubt unless they prove you can't. Don't heap groups of people together for blanket criticism. Judge each individual by their own proven strengths or weaknesses.... and remember.... you very well may be wrong in your judgements. No one thinks they are....we all think we are "judging by scripture"... but always be slow to speak as you may be wrong and as of yet unable to see it. Extend the grace to others you would want extended to you if you later found you were mistaken... sincrere.. but mistaken.

Again, hope you have a blessed day Krispy. No hard feelings

One church denomination that comes to mind is Newfrontiers led started by Terry Virgo. They are more so Pentecostal with active manifestations of the spirit rather then just non-cessationist view as the c.j. mahaney.

I like to use the term hybrid for this issue. If you are familiar with David Wilkerson's preaching, I would consider him hybrid. He comes from Pentecostal roots but I believe his views are not exclusive or extreme on this topic. I believe he preached that we can lose our salvation but it is not as insecure as Armenianism. I think there are a lot of people who believes in a little of both.

As for Francis Chan and his stance on the gifts for today, I think he is a cessationist and holds to it. See his old church's site. What I love about him is his candidness & willingness to examine honestly why he believes what he believes.

I read the Statement of Faith at the school [Eternity Bible College] that Francis founded and really liked the starting sentence which reads "Members of the college board, administrators, and the faculty of EBC recognize that any
statement of faith is a fallible attempt to summarize and systematize an infallible divine
revelation."

Ricky