What doctrines are essential for salvation and which aren't?

What doctrines are essential for salvation and which aren't?

Salvation is by GOD'S choosing and willing; it
is GOD's work. Election is necessary for
salvation, justification is essential to
salvation. Reconciliation is the fruit of
salvation.

i would say the doctrines of faith and repentance.

If they believe and repent they will be saved.

Pardon me for asking, but... Is this a serious question?

Hello all,

so so far grace alone and faith alone ect.

Yes, this is a serious question.

So far I agree with you.

I think more so of what I am asking though is a little more broad in scope.

Let's say hypothetically for instance that the Catholic's do not believe in salvation by works but grace. Will they still go to hell because of other false doctrines like that Rome is the only true Church and way to God?

Or lets say hypothetically the JW's don't believe in salvation by works but grace. Can they be saved though they do not believe Jesus was God?

Or what of Oneness teachers who teach salvation by faith and grace. Can they be saved though they do not hold to the view that God has 3 different personalities (trinity)?

Or if the LDS do not believe salvation by works. Can they be saved in that they think they will one day be a god yet still worship God as their God?

If a muslim does not believe salvation by works. Can a Muslim be saved if in their heart they truly seek God like Billy Graham would say and it maybe be accounted to them as those in the OT before the time of Christ if they have not heard?

Where does false teaching become to the point where one will not have salvation? Or maybe some in these cults are ignorant of these doctrines? Or maybe they are unwillingly deceived? Or maybe they have just not thought certain parts through as babes? This is more of what I am asking which and where does it cross the line?

anonymity wrote:
What doctrines are essential for salvation and which aren't?

Born of a Virgin (Isaiah 7:14)

He lived a sinless life (Hebrews 4:15)

He died for the sins of the world on the cross (1John 2:2).

Was dead for three nights & two/three days (He rose on the third day) Matthew 12:40

In verification of Gods' acceptance of Jesus' death for the sins of the world, He rose on the the third day (1 Corinthians 15:4)

Repentence (Acts 2:37b-38, Acts 3:19, Acts 8:22, Acts 17:30)

Jesus ascended to heaven in the flesh (glorified flesh) Acts 1:9

Now sits at the right hand of the Father to make intercession for the saints (Romans 8:34;).

He is coming back for His bride (1 Thes 4:14-17).

Any thing else is non-essential.

what about 'being saved by grace'?

You didn't list that one. Does it matter?

Any thing else is non-essential.

Brother for once we agree! and I rejoice!

You didn't list that one. Does it matter?

To me, if you believe the things that Logic listed it is evidence of God's grace having saved you.

We may disagree on the "world" part, but that isn't essential to salvation.

That's true. I was just curious.

You say these are essential for salvation, but how do you know?

Also, you did not mention all the other things like believing you can become a god ect as to whether they were essential.

you can become a god

That is nowhere in Scripture

Are you asking this for yourself or for someone else, I'm curious?

anonymity wrote:
You say these are essential for salvation, but how do you know?

Also, you did not mention all the other things like believing you can become a god etc as to whether they were essential.

Believing you can become a god is not biblical.

I would categorize that as "essential un-salvation doctrines".
The ones which might make voide your salvation even if you believe the ones I listed.
:-(

[i]Lk 23:40-43 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’” Jesus answered him, [color=CC3300]“I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”[/color][/i]

I don't think that any doctrine or belief system is necessary. This criminal was accepted by Jesus even before his death, his resurrection, his ascension, or his promise to return.

All that is essential is true life-changing faith in Christ and total submission to his Lordship. Of course, if there is time, true faith will lead to a hunger for the Word, and to a knowledge of God's will as revealed by the Holy Spirit. In this case, the criminal had no time for any of that, but he was saved.

Maybe with some essential doctrines there are no scriptures saying you must believe them to be saved.

I do think of one in 1st John saying if Jesus did not come in the flesh it is anti Christ.

I think maybe we just have to discern the importance of the doctrine and believe that if one has the Holy Spirit that they therefore could not be so far off from major truths.

However, I think in some cases that there may be some mercy depending on ignorance, raised up in compromise, ect.

Also, some major doctrines may link together with doctrines that deal with the Gospel. For instance if Jesus were not God then how can His sacrifice be sufficient.

However, I believe I am still asking to some degree what doctrines are essential and what aren't. If one says they are going to become a god, or that Christ is not God, then I surely can see why that would be essential. But, what about other doctrines like if you hold to a Oneness view of God and not a Trinitarian one or other like that that may not seem to touch the Gospel ect but are just mainline creeds?

Leo, hmm that is an interesting thought.

And, you know many are raised up in false doctrine so it is hard to get past it. I mean I remember witnessing to JW's and it messed with my head a lot. Or think of the saints in China who had no Bible's and had a lot of troubles with doctrines.

"...Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

"...Believe on [b]the Lord Jesus Christ[/b] and thou shalt be saved..." (Acts 16.30,31)

...Not on a creed or system of doctrines, but on a Person.

Leo wrote:

I don't think that any doctrine or belief system is necessary. This criminal was accepted by Jesus even before his death, his resurrection, his ascension, or his promise to return.

All that is essential is true life-changing faith in Christ and total submission to his Lordship. Of course, if there is time, true faith will lead to a hunger for the Word, and to a knowledge of God's will as revealed by the Holy Spirit. In this case, the criminal had no time for any of that, but he was saved.

"...Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..." (Acts 16.30,31)

...Not on a creed or system of doctrines, but on a Person.

Now correct Doctrine is VERY important and what we inderstand and believe about Jesus Christ, who He is and what He did is very important....BUT if we think we can be [b]saved[/b] by believing doctrine....then God help us!

I would accept that it is possoble for someone to have completely wrong thinking about Christ and His redemptive work and therefore not be saved. For example if one were to believe that Jesus was a just [i]good example[/i] to follow and that was all, he could not be saved as he would not recognise his utter sinfulness and that only the sacrifice of Jesus Christ could release him from that debt. However if we go down the road of [i]having the right doctrine[/i]to be saved, then we miss the point as has been stated by Leo and ADisciple, It is believing [b]on[/b] (not about) the [b]person[/b] of Jesus Christ in all that He truely is. Acts 16:31.

Otherwise we will be in danger of producing a dead fundamentalism, which people like Tozer and Duncam Campbell warned about. Having all the right doctrines, but no heart submission to the lordship of christ.....God forbid!

"...Sirs, what must I do to be saved? "...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..." (Acts 16.30,31) ...Not on a creed or system of doctrines, but on a Person.

Specifically, what of the Trinity. Can one hold to a Oneness doctrine and be saved?

There is a wonderful doctrine in apologetics called the "slippery slope doctrine". That is to say, if one fundamental truth of our faith is denied it follows that others will inevitably follow. So, for example, oneness theology is basically a rehash of modalism. Any abberation in doctrine immediatly attacks the foundation of scripture and twists it. In doing so more truths from scripture have to be twisted as well.

Oneness doctrine denies the doctrine of the Trinity. They also deny that one is saved by faith alone and hold to baptismal regeneration. See how it works? One area of scripture is denied, and others are sure to follow. With that being said, if one continues to hold to that doctrine, they are not trusting in Christ alone, but rather in the moment of their baptism to save them. I do think that people can be saved out of that denomination, but a true Christian will not remain in it, the Holy Spirit would not allow it.

Same could be said for the denial of the doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement (several emergent leaders). Once one denies that God punished Jesus on the cross for our sin, suddenly God isn't really [i]that mad [/i] at sin, man is not totally depraved, and He becomes made into a god that will reconcile everyone to Him (christian universalism), or accepts the works righteousness of other religions.

In part, "doctrine" is the expressed teaching of the faith about realities of the relationship we have with the Lord. Thus, our belief that Jesus is Lord, and that God raised Him from the dead isn't merely the confession of some historic fact (though in part it is that). Rather, it is the confession of the truth of a relationship that we have entered into. Doctrines that confess something other than the reality of that expression show we are not in the relationship we ought to have with the Lord.

Thus, to deny those things that constitute the "core" of our faith shows that our relationship with the Lord is not likely real. Thus, while we can be charitable about differences of opinion over some doctrines, there are some that we simply cannot. Those which define our relationship with the Lord, are what I believe are "essential."

To continue on, we can see that faith in Jesus Christ is all that is necessary to be justified in Gods eyes. the thief on the cross has already been mentioned. However, most believers that are born again are not dying thieves, but rather living thieves.

If one is born again, the Holy Spirit will lead that saint in the paths of truth for as long as they are here on earth; they may have abberant perspectives or ingnorance of key doctrines at first, but if they persist in those doctrines for years, the slippery slope will emerge.

I can't help but think of Brian McLaren. He does not hold to the doctrine of penal substitutinary atonement, now if he was a newborn in Christ and was ignorant of this doctrine, it would not be faulted to him. But for him to have persisted in that denial (notice he denies it, not simply ignorant) and teach others to do so as well is a sign of falsehood, and as expected, his perspective on hell, sin, and how God relates to man is askew as well.

Orthodox,
Good point :-P. This could be a perfect example of what I pointed out in my previous posts. I grew up in a christian environment and always heard that CS Lewis and Chronicles of Narnia were the "bees knees", so to speak. As I've grown in my faith I've come to hold differing views than what Lewis would. Case in point, when I entered that signature I had only been saved for less than a year- definately a babe in Christ (and maybe still so). So, I've never gotten around to changing it but I can certainly see where you would be justified in calling me out on that one ;-)

In Christ
Joe

jlosinski wrote:
To continue on, we can see that faith in Jesus Christ is all that is necessary to be justified in Gods eyes.

My point is, there are many jesus' around. Many gosples with Jesus.

Some say that Jesus is the brother of Lucifer.
Some say that Jesus is also Micheal the Archangel.
Some say that Jesus is only in spirit...etc...

I agree mostly with all of what you guys are saying.

My first intent in posting this was to further dig into my thoughts of how many I think are saved in abberant places and hearing from the brethren as often we function as one and need to hear relationally from each other.

Now, I can of feel a little more settled on my stances on that topic though I have been gleaning some new things.

The other thing now is I am asking whether or not you think one can be saved who does not hold strictly to Trinitarian thought on God.

Now I know there was response, but to say it lead to legalism is not seemingly reasonable. I was not asking about the Oneness Churches but about Oneness doctrine of the Trinity and I am not sure how that would lead to legalism.

I do see how one doctrine affects another however I do not see how this could affect others.

One of the reasons why I ask this question is because I do not hold to classic Trinitarian doctrine.

Before I was saved I had not concept and even for a while after being saved.

I later accepted the doctrine. Even though it seemed a little odd I received it by faith and what I believed the Bible and my elders said.

However, over the years of studying I decided to study the matter more thoroughly as I did not feel all that much of a peace about it.

I believe the Lord opened the Scriptures to me not based on personal bias or something, but on Scriptural fact.

The Lord I believe did the same with me on the doctrine of a post tribulational rapture though I was heavily indoctrinated with a pre trib position. I believe it is beyond the scope of subjective skepticism. I clearly believe that the Lord brought me to a point of death in my understanding of the Scriptures and then make it clear to me what they said of which my soul is beyond thankful.

What I do not believe is Biblical in Trinitarian thought about God is that He has 3 different and distinct personalities. I believe that the Father is Spirit, He has sent out His Spirit, and sent out His Word/Logos to take on the form of a man. As we have a word and spirit so also does God to a degree. Our word and spirit may function in different ways, but they all have the same personality.

I had a hard time with this because my family in which I got saved all held a different view. It was tragic and so I thought to be quiet over the matter as the same with post trib.

However, through some strong providences the Lord sent me to a fellowship that was bold in post trib doctrine though I did not know until a while of being there. So I did not go there because, but found out later.

The same with my view of the Oneness of God (which is not modalism ect). I believe I was strongly providentially sent to another fellowship and they also believe in Oneness.

I believe the Lord is encouraging me on a topic that can be so disheartening.

I believe that Rome and the Reformation and their creeds have not has total succession or reformation and so the Trinitarian view has heretically remained and been passed on to Evangelicalism today.

I think that to Muslims and other it paints God in a very bad picture and is one of the main hinderances to them coming to the faith.

I also shared with some close friends who are strong in the faith and when explained to them I had no rejection which was further encouragement.

You know it is funny I could not find any who had the same view as me. Though some were close like I think Albert Barnes. But, many of my friends were Calvinists and to find that from what I know my view was very similar to that of Servetus whom Calvin killed was indeed interesting. And I guess there are also other teachers with similar teachings?

I know that I was saved. I know saved brother who know I am saved. And, yet I continue in this undeerstanding. So, I guess I am wondering if you all think I am saved?

[edit] I also don't believe that the Son always was but that the Logos always was and when the Logos took on the form of man He took on the title of Son of God.

Truefaithsave,

I have been thinking the same thing recently. That many who go back to Rome are doing so in a false way. But, that those going back to the Reformation institution are also stepping into a great deal of error similar to stepping into Rome. I think that Paul was a good picture of this. He became an Apostle out of nowhere. And, in the end he labored more then they all. He rebuked Peter and others and said that God is not a respecter of persons. I don't know if I am going to say that Paul was the 12 Apostles, but I might say he is the greatest as Jesus said that he who is least among you is greatest. Plus, even if we are to a degree to stick to succession there is no hard proof saying that the succession was given to Rome or other, but was most likely given to saints like the Anabaptists ect.

with all due respect, Muslims and others that hold to a monotheistic perspective are not hindered by doctrinal differences, but rather their rejection of Christ and love of sin.

would you mind expounding on your beliefs concerning your idea of the trinity or who God is? Just trying to understand your position, I'm no expert :)
Thanks,
Joe

PS- truefaith, lets leave the Calvinism out of it, it's not relevant to this thread

Orthodox,
No problem :-). thanks for keeping me accountable

A challenge:

What doctrine is required for salvation? Could it possibly be as simple as this...?

Then he said, And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come in your Kingdom." [b]"I tell you in solemn truth," replied Jesus, "that this very day you shall be with me in Paradise."[/b]
Luke 23.42-43

God bless,

Well, I know the main reason why Muslims and other reject things. I just meant there rejection in part is I believe because of this. I think that apologetics and Scriptural reasoning and what not have to do with things as Paul with the Bereans. I believe that thoughts have some role in salvation.

I once talked about this on SI a while ago. It was the first time I talked openly of it in a large emphatic way.

Simply though this is what it boils down to. However, I am not sure my view is all that much different and so I am still debating whether I should make it an issue. Since mutually the view is held of the Godhood of all three ect.

Mainline Christianity teaches that God is 3 persons. That the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and the Father have 3 different and distinct personalities.

I however believe that all 3 share the same personality.

As our word and spirit share the same personality with us so does God.

However Mainline Christianity teaches that God's word and spirit has a separate personality.

Could you imagine if I had 3 personalities? That would seem crazy and indeed it would be. Now I am not laying my whole argument on that but on Scriptures. But, it is in part a reason. For if one said something odd or bad about God one could assume it was not Biblical. Now, one could argue there is mystery or ect and ok, but there is still Scripture to rely on.

So, the Spirit is just God's spirit and God is spirit. Jesus is the Logos or Word of God who took on the form of man and took on the title Son of God. So, God's word and spirit have come forth from the Father to us.

I also do not believe that Jesus was always the Son. I do not even believe He was always Jesus though He was in a foreordained prophetic way. I believe He was eternally the Logos/Word of God, but that He did not become the Son until He took on the form of man by the birthing of God and did not become Jesus until He was given that name from an Angel.

Do you understand what I am saying I believe?

I will say there are 1 or 2 verses I have a hard time with, but stick to the main of passages. Many will claim me a Modalist or something, but I don't believe the same as them nor did I receive it from them but from the Bible alone praying even when I was taught different. I know you cant base things on my experiences but you can on Scripture.

Some other passages would be in Hebrews wherein it is said that Jesus is the express image of His person speaking of the Father or other. I hope you understand as I think what I am saying is pretty simple.

1. no separate personalities. imagine we had 3 personalities. but separate functions as word and spirit with the same personality. as we have one personality with our word and spirit

2. no eternal Sonship but eternal as Logos. there are no scriptures saying that the Sonship was eternal but came when he was born as a Son.

3. no modalism, lack of scriptural understanding, false subjectiveness, teaching from mans influence, ect.

Yes, Lysa, I think it is that simple.

It is great that not only is our salvation paid for by such grace but the way to receive that grace is by such grace.

I think that maybe that thief may not have even know the doctrine of the cross as a sacrifice but he believed Jesus and that was enough.

As those in times past knew not the Gospel but believed God it was accounted to them for righteousness.

But, had they heard the Gospel they would have believed it for they believed. And, had they time to study they would have sought the truth and found it.

A few have mentioned this and I have been very blessed by it. That believing on Jesus is all that is needed like the thief or the keeper of the prison. And not just believing a doctrine of a person but simply believing the person relationally and personally. Though of course there will be fruits to varying degrees to seek out truth and find it and that they would have believed the doctrines had they heard them.

Anonymity,

I wish to help you out here, because frankly, the issue of the Trinity is something I struggled on greatly in my early Christian walk. Indeed, in my early Christian days, I had been all over the board doctrinally. I was greatly confused over some things, and every new argument I heard caused me to chase after a lot of different things. God in His grace helped see me through it all. It wasn't actually until I was almost through Bible college that I finally came to understand the truth of the doctrine of the Trinity. Most of the time, I was a modalist in my thought, until I believe God really opened my eyes.

Mainline Christianity teaches that God is 3 persons. That the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and the Father have 3 different and distinct personalities.

This is not quite right. As a Trinitarian, I believe that there is one God who co-exists in three separate persons. They are distinct in number and individuality. They aren't merely personalities, like God is wearing three masks, but separate individuals.

I however believe that all 3 share the same personality.

If I understand what you are saying, I think you are in the right area, but I wouldn't personally commit to this language. All three are distinct from one another in their person, but they all share the same "substance." That is, in their individual person, they share the same "God stuff."

However Mainline Christianity teaches that God's word and spirit has a separate personality.

This isn't multiple personality disorder. In reality, "modalism" actually teaches God has MPD. That is, God is sometimes the Father, sometimes the Son, sometimes the Holy Spirit. Modalism teaches that He's never all three at the same time. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all separate masks God wears from time to time, depending on context. This is contrary to the Trinitarian view, which says there is one God who co-exists, co-eternally in three distinct persons, who all share the same nature.

Now, one could argue there is mystery or ect and ok, but there is still Scripture to rely on.

There is no doubt a degree of mystery to it. But it's not something that we can't comprehend. It simply can be challenging to grasp, because frankly, God is the only triune being. There is nothing else in all of creation by which we can compare the Trinity to. I know many clever and well meaning people have attempted to do so over the years through well meaning illustrations, but as of to date, there is not one analogy that I have ever seen or anything that can compare to the Triune nature of God. And because of that, these concepts can be very difficult to grasp.

I also do not believe that Jesus was always the Son.

"The Word became flesh, and dwelled amongst us," John says. The doctrine of the Trinity states that God has always existed in the persons of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit in Divinity from all eternity. "There was a time when the Word was not" would be the error of Arianism. However, only 2,000 years ago did the incarnation happen, where the Word became flesh. The human nature of Jesus did not exist until the incarnation. However, from eternity past, we believe the second person of the Trinity, the Word/Logos, always existed, alongside of, yet distinct from the Father and the Spirit.

2. no eternal Sonship but eternal as Logos. there are no scriptures saying that the Sonship was eternal but came when he was born as a Son.

The doctrine of the Trinity teaches that the Son is "eternally begotten." For the Word of God, "proceeds" from the Father, and has done so from all eternity. The relationship of the Father to the Son to the Holy Spirit has always existed this way. Thus, the second person of the Trinity is called the "the only begotten God" (John 1:18) Additionally, 1 John 4:9 says "God sent His only begotten Son into the world..." That is to say, He was the "only begotten Son" from all eternity, before He was sent into this world by means of the incarnation.

I think you are closer to being Trinitarian than you realize, and in my opinion, it seems you are simply stumbling over the often difficult and technical language of the Trinity. I often did this myself, as these things can be very hard to grasp. This subject can also be hard to understand because of the historic use of the language used to describe this important doctrine, and that language is tied to major debates that resulted in the creation of many creeds.

My "aha" moment, when the light bulb finally came on in my understanding of the Trinity, only came once I spent a considerable amount of time immersed in the study of church history and systematic theology. The word "person" was always very difficult for me to get around, until I worked through how highly technical individuals like Tertullian used this latin-based word. If you have not studied such, I would highly recommend you do. God might not speak to you through that sort of thing, but He did for me.

God bless.

*edited by removing/rephrasing a statement or two after the fact*

Jim,

thanks for your concern..

You don't have to teach me what Trinitarian doctrine is I was brought up in it for years.

On another note I also have studied for years in depth on these topics.

Not that I cannot be taught or need to learn more or am not open to reason.

I also believe God "showed" me and therefore we may not get far on that basis, but on Scripture of course.

I do agree that I am close to a Trinitarian view, but I also know there are some differences. If you do not know I do "not" hold a Modalistic view to get those types of things out of the way.

I don't think we need to talk about this at length since it is pretty short and simple.

I do plan on doing even more study on the Triunity so thank you for your thoughts on resources.

1.
I know that the mainline view is that God is 3 persons but one as God. I however believe that God is one person with 3 functions as one God.

I do not believe that God has 3 different personalities. If I had 3 personalities even if they agreed I would be odd.

I believe God has 3 functions. As we are with our word and spirit so is God. Our word and spirit function separately, but do not have 3 personalities that have different names. In fact word/Logos and Spirit are not names but titles. As calling our word or spirit word or spirit and it not being a name so with God. Furthermore God is spirit so His spirit is Him.

I think the Trinitarian view in 3 different personalities is false, hurtful evangelistically especially among Muslims, odd in imaging God, unscriptural, unreasonable. There are many other reasons like Christ is the express image of His person ect, but I have aforementioned the main things.

So, I hope you understand what I am saying and why. That I do not believe God has 3 personalities but one yet 3 functioning parts (yet not apart) of Himself and therein I having a differing view.

2.
I do believe that the Logos/Word of God has always existed. I do not believe He has always existed as Son or as Jesus. I do not see any evidence that the Son always existed nor that He was eternally begotten. He may have been eternally spoken forth as the Word of God, but not eternally the Son. He may have had a similarity to a Son as God dearly loves Himself, yet the official title and embodiment was not given until he took on the form of man and it was said of him that He was begotten and that His name "shall" be Jesus the Son of God (though in a way before the foundation of the earth ect He was). Again, I see no evidence of "eternal" begotteness but as it says "today" I have begotten repeatedly. I believe this is a passed down creed from an institution that was falsified namely through Rome and the Protestants that needs to be ridden of and the true doctrine recovered from Scripture and the Apostles.

Ok, I think I see where you are coming from. Thanks for the clarification, I suppose that it is a good starting point. So God has three different functions that can operate at the same time, but they are of the same personality?

Personhood in relationship denotes roles, such as father to child, husband to wife, employer to employee, ect... Concerning the Trinity, they have three different roles, they are of the same essense, yet distinct in their workings. This is evident in the New testament where Jesus refers to the Father as greater than Him in John 14:28. In the same chapter, He speaks of the Comforter being sent by the Father in Jesus name.

Concerning the eternal sonship of Christ, I can't help but think of the prophetic verse in Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is [i]given[/i] (my emphasis). I know that there are other verses that speak to this distinction, but I will provide a link that I looked up that you may find helpful.
http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-Sonship.html

So to me what it seems is that you deny the differences in the persons of the Godhead, but don't deny the unity of the Godhead or the deity of Christ and the Holy Ghost. As far as I know I don't know if you are actually denying the Trinity persay, but rather the personhood of it? I'm trying to keep it straight
:-D

In Christ,
Joe

Sorry,
I was working on my previous post when you posted your response to Jim below, if my response is redundant, please disregard.
Joe

Joe,

Yes, that is right I do not reject the Godhood ect only the distinct personhood and the eternal Sonship doctrines.

As for your prophetic verse of the Son they are exactly that they are prophetic in speaking of futurehood in that the Son shall later be.

As for when Jesus talks to the Father you have to understand this. That unlike the Father and the Holy Spirit Jesus is dual natured. In that He is God but has taken on human nature. So, you have to discern if He is speaking from His humanity or His divinity. When He says the Father is greater He is speaking from His humanity for He as the Word of God is not inferior. Or when He talks to Him as Father He is talking from His Sonship or His humanity. When however He says if you have seen me you have seen the Father or I and the Father are one He is speaking from His Divinity.

You don't have to teach me what Trinitarian doctrine is I was brought up in it for years.

:-)

I however believe that God is one person with 3 functions as one God.

The doctrine of the Trinity teaches that each Divine person has a specific "redemptive role" to play. Each member co-operates with the other in this role, and sometimes, these roles or functions can be hard to slice into neat theological categories. This can be demonstrated in a number of ways. Off the top of my head, we see clearly that the Father sends the Son, and the Son sends the Spirit. Never do we read of the Son or the Spirit sending the Father. Thus, though co-eternal and equally God, each member of the Trinity has differing functions.

I do not believe He has always existed as Son or as Jesus.

The person of Jesus Christ as born in a manger 2,000 years ago, of course, has not always existed. However, the second person of the Trinity, the Son/Word/Logos of God, has. Jesus Christ, the person, is the incarnational embodiment of the second person of the Trinity. There has always been a Father and Son relationship between the two. For the Son, from eternity past, has his origin in the Father. That is why the Father has always been the Father. He could not be the Father if there weren't always a Son.

Indeed, Jesus asserted that this Father and Son relationship existed before the incarnation on numerous occasions. I quoted John 1:18 previously, about the "only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father" to demonstrate this eternal Father/Son relationship. Jesus also once said, "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." (John 17:24)

"Begotten" doesn't merely denote the incarnational relationship that came into existence 2,000 years ago. It shows the relationship that has always existed between the members of the Trinity from all eternity. Their Divine relationship has always existed, and will always exist in the same manner. The Father/Son relationship did not come into existence 2,000 years ago. The Father has always been the Father, and the Son the Son.

Thus, in the incarnation, God "[sent] His Son" (John 3:17) He was the Son from all eternity, He who was sent. In fact, in one of the classic passages that prove the Divinity of Christ, in John 8, it is because Jesus asserted His eternal Sonship in relation to the Father that the Pharisees were ready to stone Him.

"I speak the things which I have seen with my Father" (v. 38)

"Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.'" (v. 42)

"Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." (v. 58)

In this context, Christ appeals to His divine nature as to why He can say the things He says, and is the source of salvation. And in telling the crowds these things, He explains the eternal relationship He has always had with the Father as Son. He's clearly not limiting His usage of "Son" to that of His incarnation, but insists that He learned the things He's teaching from the Father, from having been with Him in all eternity. To try and limit the usage of the title of "Son" here to merely the incarnation is to create a false dichotomy.

Again, I see no evidence of "eternal" begotteness but as it says "today" I have begotten repeatedly.

Again, John 1:18 says the "only begotten God." Not the "only begotten Son", but "God." Functionally speaking, this is why the second person of the Godhead was made incarnate, and not the Father or the Spirit. Because it is the Son who "proceeds from the Father," not only in the incarnation, but also in all eternity.

I believe this is a passed down creed from an institution that was falsified namely through Rome and the Protestants that needs to be ridden of and the true doctrine recovered from Scripture and the Apostles.

Well, I have studied the creeds, some of which I have believed, and some of which I personally reject. I have attended institutions, but, I have no loyalty whatsoever to any. So, it might be a doctrine that has been indeed passed down, but is something that is to be newly discovered with each successive generation.

I believe in the Trinity, not because of coercion from some institution, but because having studied the doctrine, I have seen it was indeed Scriptural. I could care less if other Protestants or Catholics before me believed it. The fact of the matter is, I believe it. I am happy to be in agreement with them on some points, even if in opposition on others :-) I didn't want to believe the doctrine of the Trinity, but the more I studied the Scriptures, the more I saw it was true. God saved me from the error of modalistic teaching, which I was so sure at one point was right.

I know you are not modalistic, or at least, don't appear to be such. In fact, I'm not sure I quite know which group to try and lump you into. Your view point almost sounds Arian, but, not quite. Oh well, it's no matter.

Just believe these things and you will do better :-)

Good word Jimmy,
Annomity, thanks for being willing to dialogue with us, I've truly enjoyed it. It's refreshing to be able to discuss ideas without mud slingling or getting defensive and pushy.
Joe

Just a little "pastoral" reflection on some practicalities regarding the doctrine of the Trinity:

It's so important we understand the Trinity. Some teach other views in regard to God, but, if we truly have a relationship with God, our relationship is with a Triune being. We might not understand everything about that, and might be confused on some things, but if you are in a real relationship with the Lord, and rightly so, you will see this as clearly as a man understands he has only one wife. Because of this living reality, he doesn't need to be told otherwise. He knows it all too well, even if finding the right language to describe that relationship can be hard to come by.

The Trinity isn't merely a creed or doctrine to be debated, rather, it is the definition of an intimate relationship. An intimate relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, whom we are invited to join in fellowship with.

By the way, there is a sermon on here Art Katz preached a long time ago on the Trinity. It was quite a good sermon. I forget the exact name of it though. It had either Trinity or Monotheism in the title. It's a very compact but deep message. And it was only about 30 minutes, which for Art Katz, is probably the shortest message you'll ever hear him speak :-)

Art shows how we must move beyond "mere monotheism," and far from seeing the doctrine of the Trinity as a stumbling block that needs to be removed so we might be more effective witnesses, Art shows that the Trinity when rightly understood will convey the greatest witness we as a Church can give, especially in regard to the Jew.

I could respond and answer all the things given, but I just don't think it will go anywhere. I have heard these things before and thought of them, but there are answers to them. I am not sure if I were to prove it whether you would really be willing to believe it. I often hear things like well how can so many great preachers and the Church believe it for so long then. And, since based on things like that they really are not open to the idea of what I believe to be Scriptural. I cannot argue these things because they are not real facts and if doctrine is based on sentimentality or some ideology or train of thought philosophy there will be no furtherance.

I know that God functions in three ways through Himself, His Spirit, and His Word.

I know that we are to relate to God in 3 functioning ways. I often pray Jesus thank you for cleansing my sins, Holy Spirit fill me, Father open doors from your Throne ect.

I believe I have heard Katz sermon.

You have to understand when Jesus is speaking from His humanity and when from His Divinity.

God has always since He has created been a father in a sense since he gave birth or made things. Before He made things He was not a father. He was the father of man and of Israel ect. He was not specifically a father in the sense of a Son until Jesus was born as a human.

One cannot be eternally begotten. To be begotten/born one had to be born at some time. That would be similar to saying God was eternally created. There is no passage stating that Jesus was eternally begotten.

I can say boldly, with clear conscience, Scripture, non bias, reasonableness, ect that there is ABsolutely no Scripture evidence for teaching that God has 3 distinct personalities nor that the Word has eternally been the Son.

Really, though, I see no evidence not even close for what you are teaching. I could answer your questions one after another. It might take a little while and you may need to go over it since some things can be technical and foreign, yet in the end I am not sure you would even be open to it if it were Scriptural because you may have too many emotional biases.

I could answer your questions one after another. It might take a little while and you may need to go over it since some things can be technical and foreign, yet in the end I am not sure you would even be open to it if it were Scriptural because you may have too many emotional biases.

Feel free if you have more time. I'm more than willing to hear them. I'm quite convinced in what I believe, but, I've believed a lot of different things in my Christian life. Early on, I even denied that Jesus was God. I'm a pretty cool, calm and collective guy emotionally, and while I might definitely have emotional attachments to what I believe, I am willing to suspend those if I should ever be fully convinced otherwise. Personally speaking, I have no underlying reason or alternative motive in why I believe in the Trinity. I believe in the Trinity because I believe it is true, and having reached that conclusion after a careful examination of the Scriptures and study of the doctrinal controversies of the church, especially leading up to the council of Chalcedeon.

:-)

Matthew 11:25-28 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Without the Son, no one can know the Father.
Without the Father no one can know the Son.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Ephesians 1:4-6 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

"Before the foundation", eternal.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

"from the foundation", now and earthly.

One with the Father and One with us.

In Christ who is all in all as the Father.

Phillip

Jimmy I will think about it.

Orthodox,

what are you Greek Orthodox or something?

I did not mean that the Anabaptist had succession in a strict sense. I just meant that the Holy Spirit gave them succession by anointing them. The remnant who is usually cast out like all the prophets of old.

As for the Paul thing well that is just a whole topic of succession and I dont think I want to get into it at length right now. That requires a thread all its own.

Phil, I am not totally clear what you are saying?

Waltern,

You sent your post to me also in a pm, please stop. You do not need to repost to me privately; I read the threads in which I post. I'm not answering you because I do not care to.

This is not the first time I've asked you to stop reposting to me in a pm.

Thank you,

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 [b]Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:[/b] and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

What doctrine is necessary for salvation?

[b]Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:[/b]

I emphasized in "bold" that last part that they never mention or read to you. See you can form a whole false gospel around parts of scripture. All you have to do is mentions the baptism parts, make up what kind of baptism you want it to be, be it dunked, sprinkeled, or "spirit", not knowing there is ANOTHER kind of baptism. And by this means you can deceive people so they never truly get the REAL BAPTISM, which truly cleans. Namely learning to observe all the things that Jesus Christ taught and commanded.

Lot's of water dunked, sprinkeled and "spirit" taking in tongues people are going to go to hell, simply because they refused to "observe all those things Christ commanded."

What is it to be baptised?

[b]Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:[/b]

That is what cleans you up from the inside out. It's the TRUTH and then walking in it, that makes you clean.

That pretty much covers EVERYTHING that Jesus taught. I don't see your essential doctrine list here. I don't see that some doctrines are not important here. I also have not seen one denomination doing this, not just the mother of those Eccumenical harlots, the Catholic Church.

If you are taught to observe ALL THINGS whatsoever Jesus commanded you then truly "believe". You then truly have the same "faith" they had in the first century. You then will be "saved". You then will do all the works of Jesus Christ and GREATER.

Let's look at all the other scripture from this time, after Jesus resurrection, and what all he said to them here.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

OBVIOUSLY SOMETHING IS MISSING THE THE SO CALLED "GOSPEL" THE CHURCHES ARE TEACHING TODAY.

Could it be that they are NOT teaching people to OBSERVE ALL THINGS, WHATSOEVER HE COMMANDED? Yes that's it, they do not do that.

What else did Jesus command?

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

(It must have been important for them to know that he had FLESH AND BONES, in his resurrected, eternal, immortal body. That he was a REAL person and not just a spirit.)

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 [b] he took it, and did eat before them.[/b]

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 [b]then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.[/b]

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.

51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

So to teach people to observe all things whatsoever he commanded, is to preach the gospel, is to preach repentance and remission of sin.

For only in believing what Jesus taught, and in repenting and confessing with him what he said, can one come to repentance. He gave the "standard", if you don't know what he taught, then you can't meet the standard and do what he said to do. Therefore you never come to repentance and walk as he walked. (Regardless of how much you quote and repeat that verse in 1 John.)

John 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, [b]Follow me.[/b]

HOW is it that Peter would FOLLOW Jesus? He would to out and feed the sheep by ovserving and teaching others to observe (that is believe and DO), all things whatsoever Jesus had ALREADY taught them. That is how you follow Jesus. That is how you are "saved".

20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? [b]follow thou me.[/b]

23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: [b]and we know that his testimony is true.[/b]

I can read the gospel of John, or any of the other gospels, which are the testimonys of the teachings of Jesus Christ. And I can learn to observe all things whatsoever Jesus commanded.

But I haven't heard much of this testimony from anyone on this board. There are a "few" here, that give this testimony, but most give church doctrines and dogmas and things they've read in theology. Or even worse "illuminations" they've received by devil spirits impersonating the holy spirit, that take you even further away from the real flesh and bone Christ. That shall return in the same flesh and bone.

The main thing about John's testimony is that it focuses primarily on what you would call the TRUE essentail doctrines of the Lord Jesus Christ.

What is the true essential doctrine (teachings: teaching them to OBSERVE ALL THINGS, whatsoever I have commanded you.)

If you haven't been doing this, I'd get busy. You can start in Matthew, go on to Mark, then Luke, and then John or whatever. The point is better get to knowing what Jesus taught and start following it. If you try and just follow bits of Paul's letters, let alone understand them, you'll just deceive yourself. Paul taught the gospels or what's written in them. THEN he wrote letter's of REPROOF AND CORRECTION, and that is primarily what the Church letters are. It is not a "speical" gosepel.

Most Christians, can read men's books and quote men till the cows come home. But cannot read, concentrate on or focus on more scripture than a partial verse. And if they do happen to copy and paiste, they understand little to nothing of what they have quoted, except for a partial verse about which they have a whole corrupted theology and understanding.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 [b]Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.[/b]

ARE "YOU" CLEAN?

Did you just read that part of the scirpture and think it automatically applied to you?

Jesus was not talking to "YOU".

Jesus was talking to men who had BEEN WITH HIM.

Jesus was talking to men who had heard and believed everything and MORE, that is written in what are called the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

How much of that have "you" actually heard, UNDERSTOOD, believed, and ACTED upon.

HOW MUCH DO YOU "OBSERVE"?

What did THEIR LORD say to THEM?

[b]Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.[/b]

Yeah, THEY were clean. YOU are most probably NOT!

I know CHRISTIANITY!

I know that few...few....few teach those in their churches to "observe all things, whatsoever Jesus Christ commanded".

OH, they are teaching something all right. But they are not teaching THAT.

Most of you can't and don't even quote or comprehend one teaching he gave.

Like for instance what we are looking at right now, in John 15:1 through the next 4 or 5 verses.

AFTER he tells THEM, that they are clean through the word he has spoken unto THEM, which most of you have no concept of, and think that's some sort of instantainous promise just because you might quote it all the time, while NEVER having learned or been taught to observe all the things he taught previous to this.

THEN he says:

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Do you abide in him. I surely think, you think you do. And I surely know from his teachings, that you most probably DO NOT. Because I know the wickedness of those who have taught you, and filled your minds with another gospel.

What did he mean "abide in me"?

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

(Just because all you branches are gathering together, and agree on your error, does not mean it's the truth. Where are the teachings of jesus Christ?)

7 [b]If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you,[/b] ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 [b]Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.[/b]

9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10 [b]If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.[/b]

Could it get any CLEARER than that?

IS THAT ROCKET SCIENCE?

Do you DO THAT?

Do you even kNOW THAT?

Are you HEARING what the Lord said?

Knowing the wickedness of those who profess him and in works deny him. And the ABUNDANCE of how many of you there are. I suppose not!

You say: "I walk by the spirit".

Jesus said: John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: [b]the WORDA that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.[/b]

WHAT WORDS?

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: [b]the word that I have spoken,[/b] the same shall judge him in the last day.

Those WORDS we have been talking about his whole time. His TEACHINGS that he gave to his disciples, when he was here in his earthly ministry. Those WORDS that are primarily written in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

[b]But what SPIRIT, are you talking about when you constantly quote Paul's partial statment of "walking by the spirit"?[/b]

YOU do not mean the words and teachings of Jesus Christ as written in these books. You mean a SPIRIT, that comes and tells you, you can believe and do just the OPPOSITE of what the written words of his disciples state.

[b]This SPIRIT comes in the forms of the teachings in the books you read, the church doctrines you received or just a spirit talking to your head or your own self talking in your head.[/b]

HIS WORDS, his teachings, in what we call the gospes will JUDGE YOU IN THE LAST DAY!

Do you know? Do you OBSERVE all things whatsoever he commanded THEM?

Can you ask for whatsoever you will and will God do it?

Do signs follow YOU?

You say: "Jesus visted me, he took me to heaven, he ILLUMINATED me. Yet you do not teach or observe what he commanded. THAT WASN NOT JESUS!

Didn't you know there is more than one JESUS?

1 Cor 11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4 For if he that cometh [b]preacheth another Jesus,[/b] whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

So you are so "spiritual", that you cannot be deceived, like Paul said the Corinthains who received the truth first hand and in person by the disciples of the Lord, were in danger of being deceived.

In truth if you are not receiving direct revelation from a devil spirit impersonating the holy spirit, then you have received TEACHINGS of another gospel from someone who did.

Go ahead prove me wrong.

Quickly, without having to THINK about it for a spell, or look it up. List 10 things the Lord commanded you to do.

Quickly recall to memory even 5 full verses of anything Jesus taught and say it.

For that matter just quote two verses, or maybe 3 or four sentences in succession.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have [b]the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.[/b]

WHAT is His testimony?

The WORDS he spoke. NOT what you IMAGINE in your head!

The words he taught, his commandments, his sayings, his teachings. Those words LATER written down by his true disciples, who heard them FIRST HAND.

YOU do not hear from Him. Because you do not repeat what he taught, or say what he said, or observe what he said to observe, or keep his commandments.

YOU think there are no commandments to keep. And if you do happen to think their may be a "few", you EXPECT HIM TO DO IT FOR YOU, while you sit on your duff.

[b]And you think that this is "walking in the spirit".[/b]

You walk by your own spirit, you do your own way, then you pick and choose out a few verses of scripture to justify it and sign his name to it.

CURSED CHILDREN.

CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE.

Not even Children who have LEFT the right way. But children who have NEVER KNOWN the right way to begin with.

Children who have never been cleansed, who have never been washed. Children who wallowed in the mud from the beginning. Dogs who never even vomited up their abominations even to return to eat it again.

You cannot LEAVE THE RIGHT WAY, WHEN YOU NEVER KNEW IT TO BEGIN WITH.

Be thankful for this, for God will still grant you repentance unto life, if you turn and FOLLOW HIM. (no not that stupid spirit, which is only your own head talking, or the "illumination" given to you by some demon impersonating an angel of light.

Brohters and Sisters BEWARE, those who come to you saying they have been ILLUMINATED by the holy spirit. Beware EVEN MORE, if you get ILLUMINATED.

Children who have never known the right ways of the Lord.

Children who think they are something when they are NOTHING.

Children who were born in the Harlot Church, and never came to a knowledge of the truth.

What "doctrines are essential for salvation?".

How about "ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER HE SAID UNTO HIS DISCIPLES."

How many do you know? How many do you OBSERVE? That is "DO", which means to "practice" or "apply" in your daily life?

Just off the top of my head....

Do you "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his rightousness, KNOWING that he will add all the matieral things you need to you, as you literally follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and BECOME righteous as he is righteous.

OR do you just go around confessing you are the rightousness of God in Christ, while DOING NOTHING HE COMMANDED TO DO?

Do you LOVE YOUR ENEMIES? Do you love those that hate you? Do you bless those that curse you? Do you pray for them that dispitefully use you and persicute you?

Do you look after women (or men if you are a woman), and lust after them in your heart?

Do you FLEE fornication? Do you FLEE from idoatry? Or does the idol TV get bowed to everyday, that you have set up in your living room? Where Satan soes his seeds of fear, doubt and unbelief.

Whatsoever you would, that men should do unto you, do you do it for them?

When you make a mistake do you want forgivness and mercy? Do you GIVE IT TO OTHERS?

Do you look for the return of Jesus in the FLESH and BONE as he said he had? Or do you look for a SPIRIT return?

Do you take heed that no man deceives you? Or do you not need to worry about men, and just continually deceive yourself, by thinking you don't have to do what Jesus commanded and taught?

What I suppose here that I could write down the whole gospel of Luke? Do you DO that gospel? Or how about Mark or John or Matthew?

Quote me a whole chapter in any one of them by heart?

WHAT, you cannot quote the first sermon of Jesus on the Mount?

WHY not?

It's only 3 chapters.

Muslims memorize the WHOLE KORAN.

What's with YOU?

You can't even quote 4 or 5 verses in context and in sequence.

Are you a CRETIAN Christian?

Titus 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, [b]The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.[/b]

13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, [b]and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.[/b]

15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

16 [b]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.[/b]

Mention "works" to more than half of you here and you will scream like banches (noisy worthless birds that "do do", all over everything.) And then search out every partial verse of scripture you can find to twist and pervert to say YOU DON'T HAVE DO DO ANY WORKS. This is what they taught you in that harlot church you were raised in.

You quote Paul here:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

And such like as you can find. But deny him here.

Titus 3:8 [b]This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.[/b]

And what did HE who you claim as "savior" and even "Lord say?

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, [b]the works that I do shall he do also;[/b] and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

What do you think that meant?

PRIMARILY he meant about doing GOOD WORKS. Loving your neighbor, loving your enemy, LOVING THE TRUTH, more than you church doctrine. Wanting to know him and be like him and follow him, and observe all things whatsoever he'd been teaching until the time he was taken out of here.

I hear these phony Christians quote this verse and their emphisis is always on the so called GREATER WORKS, and thinking about doing miracles. OH BOY...but say you have to actually do a commandment or two and again they scream like banchies. Say you actually have to put any normal human effort into something and they'll go to the moon and back to pervert and twist scripture around to try and prove you can't do nothin by your own effort. W-O-R-K is a four letter word to them.

Hey it's easy, just type in the word "works" into the NT search engine and read all the verses that tell you to maintain good works.

OH MY, that's catholic. NO, because the Catholic Church does not teach to do "good works", it teaches to do "catholic works" and simply calls them, "good works".

Again the good works of Christ in what he taught are neither the works of the catholic church, nor the works of the LAW of Moses, thorugh in doing them you will fulfill the Law of Moses.

And if by chance you do run into some Christian group that promotes some work, then it's the works of the Law, not of Jesus Christ, and they have you going to church on a certain day or giving up pork.

WICKED, WICKED, WICKED CHILDREN!

Children that have gone astray having no shepard. Because they will not go to shepard of the sheep. They will not read and observe his teachings.

Children who have been indoctrinated by hirelings, i.e. professional preachers.

Strain at a knat, and swallow a cammel. That is you misunderstand and are BLIND to the simplicity of Christ's teaching, while at the same time devour the most mumbo jumbo theological garbage of men.

Who is this letter to? Whoever their gospel fits the profile. Ut Oh, I'm spiritually profiling here.

We are commanded to: Heb 10:24 [b]And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:[/b]

Yet you have not done that FOR ME!

You don't know HOW to do it for me.

And if you did try and provke me to "love" it would be "tolerance" and not true love in Christ. It would most like be eccumanical in character.

I'm probably going to hell simply because I can find narry a Christian who will PROVOKE ME TO LOVE AND GOOD WORKS.

But you same Christians can sure quote the next verse to me, to try and get me into your apostate meeting places.

Heb 10:25 [b]Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together,[/b] as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

OH, EXCUSE ME...I quoted way to much of that last verse for you to comprehend. For when you quote it, to try and make be feel guilty, and that I ought to attend your doctrine of devils fest you call "church", you can only quote part:

[b]Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together,[/b]

And do you, have you, EVER provoked me unto love and good works? NEVER!

Would to God, I could have the joy of fellowship with those feasting on the truth of Christ, but there is a FAMINE of the words of the Lord in this land.

There is a church on every street corner with no WORD in it. And every brother and ever sister utterly walks with slanders, and seek not the truth. Nor love have they for the truth, and hence no love for me.

I HATE MY LIFE IN THIS WORLD!

The truth of the true gospel is sweet in my mouth, and bitter in my belly. I am one of the few hearers, and a bad doer. I am vexed with the filthy gospel of the wicked. Woe is me, for I am undone. I am an impious person in a generation of impiety, and there is not one, that will encourage me to love and good works in Christ.

There is no man to walk before me, and teach me, to pray for me, to lay hands on me, to admonish and incourage me. There is no one, no not one, who walks in that power of righteousness as he walked. There is no physician to heal my body and soul. There is none with virture to impart to me.

OK, WHATEVER....the point is I just really wish for human contact of real fellowship with people who are truly following Christ and the truth, and I know I'm not going to get it till the return and the resurrection.

I KNOW THAT GOD IS WORKING IN PEOPLE OUT THERE AND I AM NOT ALONE.

I do not think I'm 'SPECIAL'. Just LONELY for real human fellowship.

What doctrine is essential for salvation?

Did he not say a "little" leaven, leavens the WHOLE LUMP.

I'd say ALL of what he taught uncorrupted and unperverted. No wonder he said "FEW" would ultimatly be saved. No wonder he said straight is the way and narrow the gate that leads unto life and FEW their be that find it. And broad is the way that leads to distruction and MANY there be which go there at.

OH, but he really did not mean it, there will be a great awakening in the end, a great revival. People few will in the end be saved and only by the skin of their teeth.

Do I count myself in that "number", it is to be seen, it is to be seen. Not yet that is for sure.

Regards, (and a little ranting)
El Harris

Aw man, you're taking all the FUN out of FUNdamentalist dogma!

Quote:
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I do not think I'm 'SPECIAL'. Just LONELY for real human fellowship.
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Well, with your sunny disposition and winsome personality, it should be easy to make friends.

Actually I did take The Dale Carnagie course on "How to Win Friends and Influence People", back in 1979.

Now if I wanted to wind friends and influence people I would quote this verse.

John 15:Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

And then I would go on and on about what Jesus has done FOR them. I could quote something I was originally told like: "It's not a matter of what you give up, it's what God gives to you." And it would vex my soul to have to remember all the other one liners and verses taken out of context to prove it's all about what Jesus did and nothing to do with what you do, except believe and accept it. et. et.

But instead I would quote what he said next, and all my would be friends would run the other direction.

John 13:14 [b]Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.[/b]

And then tell them. It's not a matter of what Jesus did, as much as it's a matter of your response to it, and what you DO.

His blood will not cover you. He did not die for you, nothing he did will apply to you. He is NOT your frined but will be your adversary, if you do not obey him. Only the friends, those who seek to do whatsoever he commands them are invited to the marriage supper.

And here is another bone to pick with partial picking verse corrupters and false gospel makers.

They always talk about the Marriage supper of the Lamb, and how wonderful and glorious it will be and how they look forward to it. Even to the point of what kind of food there may be at the banquet.

Well, read it.

It's not a matter of WHAT is going to be served up, but WHO is going to be served up.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Oh, that's just so SWEET.

Not REALLY.

WHAT'S FOR DINNER?

Rev. 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and[b] gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.[/b]

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: [b]and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.[/b]

I hate to say, but this is our "hope". And this is also why God says that we are not to avenge ourselves but rather give place unto wrath. For the Lord is going to kill those who corrupt his Word, and love a lie.

This is the Church. These are real people.

Psl 58:1 Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?

2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.

6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.

7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.

8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.

9 Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath.

10 [b]The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.[/b]

2 Thes 2:7 [b]And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:[/b]

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Is this God's will?

NO!

God is not willing that any (of US) should perrish but that all of US should come to repentance.

God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but pleasure when the wicked repents of his evil ways.

One EVIL WAY, is to love and make a lie. Christianity is INFESTED with this. And their blood will God require.

As I stated, or as Jesus stated: "YOU are my frinds IF you do whatsoevr I command you."

It is any church on the face of this planet, that is few and far between, that teaches it's congregation, to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ, as taught in the gospels.

They have a perverted form of teaching, based on verses of scripture taken out of context. And there will literally be hell to pay.

For again, it is his teachings that we will be judged by in the end.

But NOW we have grace and mercy covering us, allowing us some small amount of time, to come to the truth.

I say, that for these last generations, there will especially be NO EXCUSE. Knowledge is abundant, bibles easily available. No excuse not to know the truth, no excuse.

However that's not even the hard part. The hard part is to DO IT, once you know it. Won't be any excuse there either.

Matt 13:47
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

As Paul stated: But I keep under my body and bring it into subjection, let I myself should be a "CAST AWAY". (LIke in he "casts the BAD away".

1 Cor 9:24
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

27 [b]But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.[/b]

Oh YEAH, Paul sure believed in "once saved always saved". About as much as he really did not believe WORKS were not important.

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 Timothy 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

1 Timothy 5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

1 Timothy 5:25 Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

1 Timothy 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Titus 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Titus 3:14 And let our's also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

1 Peter 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

It's really time for those who teach perverted "grace", to rethink their "gospel", and incorporate a few more scriptures, for a broader understanding of the narrow way.

All you have is a "grace period", in which you can come to repentance, and learn his teachings, and learn to follow him. You might say you are on PROBATION or PAROLE, and if you don't straighten up it's going to be REVOKED! And the grace period on your temporary "insurance", is going to RUN OUT!

HEY...I"m preachin to myself here too!

Regards, God Bless...

El Harris
(now what's not "friendly" about any of that?)

How many really think God is just playing around? That he is like they are and as wishy washy.

Moderators, do you think its time to step in here now?

We would remind everyone here of forum etiquette. That means, simply this: [i]Play the ball and not the man.[/i]

I must repeat once again: please, if you cannot post edifyingly, do consider excusing yourself from the discussion. You'll gain the respect of your brethren and save yourself from future embarassment. These squabblings only prove the immaturity of those who participate. If you could separate yourself from the contentious throng and look into this discussion as an outsider, you would understand what I mean.

Thread terminated.