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Britain vs Christianity - coming to America unless we stop it now

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sermonindex

http://downloads.cbn.com/cbnnewsplayer/cbnplayer.swf?aid=9425
- a warning from Britain

My family and I lived in England in the 70's and it was nothing like it is today. I've since returned occasionally and see how it has become anti Christian. They don't have the nerve to become anti Muslim. I've stopped giving to the local PBS station. They air many British programs that go out of their way to state their anti Christianity in ways that have nothing to do with the story line. by rep140

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-404052/How-Britain-turning-Christianity-crime.html

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sermonindex

"Unless we stop it now".

Why?

Have you ever considered God's will in this matter?

Our position in Christ is not to stop world events from taking place. The great commission is to save that which is lost. We leave the tearing down and the setting up to the Grand Architect..God.

Before every great move of God when you read the history before that sweeping wave of God's power and presence, there is always people saying that "God is dead". Iniquity reaches an all time high, crime is rampant and immorality has stooped lower than it's ever been.

We say, "bring it on", the more the merrier. The greater the sin the greater the grace that God will pour out. In the meantime, love your nieghbour who is anti God, love the Muslim who has no enlightenment of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Do we just stand back and allow things to take place? Absolutely not. When we see in an injustice we pray and make our petitions known unto God, but as for trying to change what God has ordained to take place, we cannot change it. These things are inevitable, they are for our good and especially for His good pleasure. That is why it says, "Thine will be done". We must bend to the will of God even though we don't agree with it.

Believe it or not, but it was God Almighty who wooed the people of the United States to vote for President Barack Obama. We must respect God's decision. Speaking against the President is speaking against God, because God put him there. And we are saying in effect that God doesn't know what He is doing. Therefore, the admonition of the Apostle is to pray for our leaders.

This is hard I know. It goes against the grain. But our citizenship is not here folks. It's in Christ Jesus our LORD. Where He is, it's there we want to be.

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White_Stone

Dear DeepThinker,

Thanks for the reminder. I believe you are right, it is God's will. I also know how God hates lies and I am filled with righteous anger with the flood of them. At times I may find myself ranting about it. God is working on me, I hope others will be understanding.

The dismay may not be as strong on your side of the border. :-P

kindest regards,
white stone

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ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi DeepThinker...

Believe it or not, but it was God Almighty who wooed the people of the United States to vote for President Barack Obama. We must respect God's decision.

Of course, this same rationale could be used of EVERYTHING that happens upon the Earth too (good or bad). I do believe that God raises up authorities to disperse justice. Yet, this government in America is one of "consent." The United States is a democratic republic, where individuals are selected by their fellow citizens to be short-term governors (depending upon the term of office) with the notion that they, as good temporary stewards, will "faithfully uphold the laws of the land and the Constitution."

Those same people who vote them into office can also vote them out of office. Likewise, those same individuals are also given an ability to petition their governors and authorities to act on behalf of what they think is right. It is a lot like the story of a persistent widow during Jesus's day who did the same thing with an unrighteous "judge." Perhaps the same God who you say "wooed the people to vote" for a man might also be "wooed" to petition on the side of righteousness?

This is hard I know. It goes against the grain. But our citizenship is not here folks. It's in Christ Jesus our LORD. Where He is, it's there we want to be.
I agree...but I would add that we are ALSO citizens of the land in which the Lord placed us. We are under the government that God placed us. When asked by a Roman soldier who was about to beat him unlawfully whether he was a Roman citizen, Paul did not claim that his citizenship was solely in heaven. Rather, he cited his natural born Roman citizenship (Acts 22:22-29). He later used his "right" as a Roman citizen to "appeal unto Caesar." Of course, Paul used the Roman legal system, traveling along the Roman roads, that were built using taxes paid to Roman authorities, in order to take the Gospel to Rome...and to Caesar's house.

I do understand what you mean, though. Our allegiance is first and foremost to our Eternal King. Yet, I personally don't see anything in Scripture that forbids believers from petitioning or exerting influence on the people and governments around us. The Old Testament is filled with men like Moses, Joseph, Daniel and others who exerted righteous influence upon secular governments. Likewise, John the Baptist spoke to Herod about matters of righteousness -- and later lost his head for it (Matthew 14:3-5). The persistent widow petitioned an unrighteous "judge." In fact, Paul was compelled to present the Gospel to Caesar himself (Acts 27:24 and Acts 28:19), and it appears that he might have been successful (Philippians 4:22).

Yet, I also agree that we should pray for those who are in authority (regardless of whether they are appointed, voted in, or kings and queens). In addition, we should be examples of Christ who do not hide our light under a bushel of religious sectarianism. Like a city on a hill, we cannot and should not be hidden (Matthew 5:14-16). Our hearts, of course, are set apart as belonging to Christ Jesus even as we live in the world and nation that God has not yet taken us out of.

As for England: I have long had a burden for the people in that nation. I have read so many stories about the things that God has done in the past within that nation. I have spoken with old revival ministers from the nation who recall great things that happened years ago. Today, so many in the nation have turned from God.

I know a professor at Oxford who was going to serve as a faculty mentor for me on a scholarship that I was given during my undergraduate study. This professor is so honest in his hostility to the Gospel and even in regard to the very existence of God! I never accepted the scholarship to study there (due to a conflict with the graduate program that I was beginning). However, I have kept in touch with this particular professor. We have carried on long conversations about his professed atheism and the state of faith in his homeland. He admits that England has experienced a moral degradation in accordance with the decline of significance seen in the Christian faith. Slowly, I see God having an impact on his heart. I sent him a couple of books that I thought might help. He has even allowed me to pray for him via the telephone.

While I believe in petitioning the governments of the land into which God placed us, those are limited to legislative edicts that may or may not govern in what is right. What is vastly more important is the hearts of the people in the land. We need a revival! I don't mean a "revival" that is seen almost as a "mystical" thing. We need a great and sudden awakening of people in and out of the Church who quickly realize the futility of life without knowing the one true Living God! We need a waking up of the souls of men...whose hearts will begin to ache with an unquenchable yearning and thirst to know the Lord! We need a sudden realization in the hearts of men everywhere (starting in the Church) that the fleeting pleasures of this life cannot compare even remotely with just a moment spent in pure intimacy with God. We need such a revival!

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Greenlea

Our position in Christ is not to stop world events from taking place. The great commission is to save that which is lost. We leave the tearing down and the setting up to the Grand Architect..God.

Thank you for the reminder once again that God is sovereign. There is nothing that He is not designing. Nothing!!

Believe it or not, but it was God Almighty who wooed the people of the United States to vote for President Barack Obama. We must respect God's decision. Speaking against the President is speaking against God, because God put him there.

I was reading in Genesis today and came across this passage and it struck me once again that God is the potter we are the clay.

Gen 45:7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance
Gen 45:8 So now [it was] not you [that] sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt

[b]So now [it was] not you [that] sent me hither, but God[/b]

It is God that works all things according to His good pleasure. Even the election of the president.

Believe it or not, but it was God Almighty who wooed the people of the United States to vote for President Barack Obama. We must respect God's decision. Speaking against the President is speaking against God, because God put him there.

Gen 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; [but] God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as [it is] this day, to save many people alive.

Somehow, someway the Lord is working this out for our good. Let us continue to pray for our leaders as Paul commands, for our nation, for our brothers and sisters and what our hands find to do (in the Lord) let us do with all our might.

Blessing!!

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ChrisJD

"Let us continue to pray for our leaders as Paul commands, for our nation, for our brothers and sisters and what our hands find to do (in the Lord) let us do with all our might."


If I may add something along with this, may we also continue to be salt as well, in whatever part of the [b]earth[/b], or its kingdoms we find ourselves in.

Salt acts as a preservative, keeping things from rotting.


God may certainly have Soveriegn pleasure and delight in working in us to be so, and to do(Php 2:12-15, 1Pe 2:9-17, Luke 19:13).

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InTheLight

Do we just stand back and allow things to take place? Absolutely not. When we see in an injustice we pray and make our petitions known unto God, but as for trying to change what God has ordained to take place, we cannot change it. These things are inevitable, they are for our good and especially for His good pleasure. That is why it says, "Thine will be done". We must bend to the will of God even though we don't agree with it.

I'm sure glad that this kind of advice wasn't offered to Esther when Haman's wicked plot came to light. Oh yes, there was prayer and fasting, then there was action.

[i]For if you keep silent at this time, relief and deliverance will rise for the Jews from another place, but you and your father's house will perish. And who knows whether you have not come to the kingdom for such a time as this?"[/i]
(Est 4:14 ESV)

In Christ,

Ron

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sermonindex

"This is hard I know. It goes against the grain. But our citizenship is not here folks. It's in Christ Jesus our LORD. Where He is, it's there we want to be"

Amen deep thinker........Frank

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ChrisJD

"Where He is, it's there we want to be"

Amen.


Acts 23:11, 19:21, 25:10-12, 26:32, Is 52:15.

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sermonindex

Deepthinker you should be a tad more carefull of assuming Gods will and also saying "we" say...

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

I detect a bit of this attitude in you post.

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sermonindex

Deepthinker, you said,

"Speaking against the President is speaking against God, because God put him there. And we are saying in effect that God doesn't know what He is doing."

Really? huh... I guess Jesus was speaking against God the father when he called Herod a fox.

Luke 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

I hope others don't fall into your narrow view.

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sermonindex

Really? huh... I guess Jesus was speaking against God the father when he called Herod a fox.

John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I SEEK NOT MINE OWN WILL, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

By calling Herod a Fox, Jesus FIRST heard it from the Father, and then He spoke.

We do not judge by what we see, but what we HEAR the Father say to us. If your not hearing, keep your mouth shut. Lest you find yourself being judged. And that goes for every single one of us, including yours truly.

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sermonindex

I'm sure glad that this kind of advice wasn't offered to Esther when Haman's wicked plot came to light. Oh yes, there was prayer and fasting, then there was action.
So we should plot against that wicked Haman? And get a petition from the king to have the Church arm themselves and be ready on a set day to kill anyone who had a thought to kill us?

This is the action that was carried out.

Do you know why Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom was taken from him for the period of seven years? Because he lifted himself up as the sole founder, and yet it was given to him by God. And God made him an example, that it's He that ruleth in the heavens.

Dan 4:25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, [b]till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.[/b]
The Kingdom of Grace and Truth excludes physical violence, plots against our neighbour, we are as dumb sheep ready for the slaughter. Why? Because at the cross we died with Jesus. We are dead and all the lust of vengeance and this flesh has been crucified to Christ.

If Esther was under the New Covenant and she went to the King to tell him all that was happening, she would have done everything that she could to keep Haman from being hanged. Why? Because she is dead with Christ and Haman is not her enemy.

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InTheLight

So we should plot against that wicked Haman? And get a petition from the king to have the Church arm themselves and be ready on a set day to kill anyone who had a thought to kill us?

Well, with all due respect, you certainly stretched that one to it's limits.

The point is that when an opportunity arises to serve God and our generation, we must not let it slip by.

In Christ,

Ron

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ginnyrose

I did not read all the posts on this thread, so if someone else said this, I guess that would mean we are of the same mind!

The fact that Islam appeals to the masses has me completely befuddled. Something does not compute. Sharia law (I think it is called) has strong unmerciful penalties against certain sins, like homosexuality, adultery, thievery...Their philosophy concerning females .... why does this religion enjoy such popular appeal to the masses? If Christianity would advocate the penalties that Islam does we would be experience such wide spread oppression....

Does anyone know the answers to these questions?

ginnyrose

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sermonindex

ginnyrose,
Islam in America primarly appeals to the prison population secondarly to 'some' in the general population. I would not say that it appeals to the 'masses' in America.
However sometimes a minority can wield power and influence. Then when that minority uses our legal system to get its way,(much like the athiests have done) then it becomes more of a threat to our liberties in America.

Thats what I have seen so far. I do not claim to be all knowing on this subject.

M
MaryJane

Greetings ginnyrose

I have to admit I have wondered the same thing. There is a lady that I see in the grocery store once in awhile. She is white and clearly born here in the United States and yet she dresses in the full garb of the Muslim religion with only a her face showing. I do not understand it at all. Why a woman who is clearly American, raised here would ever embrace a religion that is so hostel toward women. It just does not make any sense to me at all.

God Bless
maryjane

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sermonindex

I do not understand it at all. Why a woman who is clearly American, raised here would ever embrace a religion that is so hostel toward women. It just does not make any sense to me at all.
Since we don't know her motive, we can only speculate. In some strains of Christianity there are groups that are hostile towards women. There are women that actually like this type of bondage. They want to be "put in their place" so to speak, it's almost like a "fetish" for lack of a better word.

The woman that you know of probably has no idea what Muslim women face in those countries where the laws are in favour of men. If she were there, I am sure she'd do everything she could to get out.

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sermonindex

Well, with all due respect, you certainly stretched that one to it's limits.
:-P :-P

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sermonindex

To thingsabove,

Really? huh... I guess Jesus was speaking against God the father when he called Herod a fox.
1 Pet 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well... 18 Servants, [be] subject to [your] masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 19 For this [is] thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Ezra 5:12, Jer 27:8, Jer 28:11, 14; 1 Chron 5:26, Isa 10:12.


When Jesus remarked that Herod was a 'fox', He was stating truth, in love. He was not [i]misrepresenting[/i] the man to those to whom He was speaking.

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sermonindex

Yes and when Jesus took a whip and drove the money changers out He was stating the truth in love . When he rebuked very pointedly the Pharisee' who were rulers He was speaking in love.

Alive to God I don't know if you live in America but In the United States the "People" are the higher power. The Law of our land is the Constitution within it is also the bill of rights.

It is important to keep in mind that the submission to higher powers in America is to participate in the Governmental process. Again in America the people are the higher power elcting representatives to go conduct business and the law of the higher power is to then reelect or elect new representatives to go conduct the business again.

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sermonindex

Alive to God I don't know if you live in America but In the United States the "People" are the higher power. The Law of our land is the Constitution within it is also the bill of rights
"Whatsoever a man thinketh, so is he". If you believe we should speak against kings and dignitaries, princes and principalities, you are within your right to do so. The grace of God covers even the rebellious among us. Your not alone, there are thousands of Christians that are just like you, and there are some even on this website, so your among acquaintances.

Alive presented the verses what more can be said?

Were cool 8-)

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sermonindex

No thinker, "we are not cool".
You can't seem to see how much you come across as a pharisee.
But thank you for looking over at me and saying that God's grace covers my rebelliousness. Good thing your not like me..right?

I am only responding to you this once. I am not interested in conversing with you because you have demonstrated over and over your pride.
If at a future date you want to be a little more flexible then maybe we can talk.

L
Lysa

thingsabove wrote:
No thinker, "we are not cool".
You can't seem to see how much you come across as a pharisee.

WHAT??? DeepThinker a pharisee?? :-( :-o

I would have thought a couple others before I would've thought of DT being a pharisee, but maybe that's just me!

Are you a borderline pharisee, DT? ;-)

God bless us everyone!!!

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sermonindex

Deep thinker,

Your a Pharisee? surely not :-) God bless you brother........Frank

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ChrisJD

Hi everyone,


Believe it or not, but it was God Almighty who wooed the people of the United States to vote for President Barack Obama. We must respect God's decision. Speaking against the President is speaking against God, because God put him there.

If I could suggest something:

I believe that the injunctions given in the scriptures about speaking against human dignitaries are there as a reflection of the authority and dignity they are given from God.

Everyone that has authority from God is to be respected, in as much as such respect is in deference to God and an acknowledgement of His ultimate authority over all(John 19:11).


I would disagree in saying that the postion of every king and every Goverment is by the active decree or purposed actions of God(see for instance Luke 4:6). And when we read that God rules in the kingdoms of men, I believe this is to have us understand that God has the final say in every decsion that is made on earth, whether He decides to have His say or not, and that it is His uncontestable right to intervene in any place and time that He chooses, whether He chooses to or not(Ps 135:6 Job 40:8, Is 14:27).


I would agree with those also that would caution us against taking the example of the Lord Jesus, and His speech about rulers as a certain example for ourselves, inasmuch as, was pointed out, the Lord was speaking with the authority of Heaven, and it is nothing to be marvaled at if the King of Heaven should rebuke a lesser, lesser, a much lesser king(Ps 76:12, 107:40).

I hope that at least some of this made sense,

Wish you all well,

Chris

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InTheLight

Deep Thinker,

I'm glad you find it humorous, but I cannot. The original post was a call to be concerned about a declining society around us. The church must be concerned because as the church goes so goes society. The only hope of civilization is the church; we must honestly face this question.

When the Body is right and functioning in the purpose of God then society as a whole experiences the blessings that come from God. Not all of society gets saved but God rains on the just and the unjust too.

When the salt has lost its savor it is not a time to sit back and just say that what is happening in society is God's will. It is a time to examine ourselves honestly bearing in mind that the condition of society around us is largely a reflection of the condition of the church. Remember "ye are the light of the world" (Matt 5:14).

I am saddened to see that even those within the church are accepting that the church has only a marginal relevance to modern society. We do not expect, for the most part, to find the Gospel centered in burning conviction that will cause people to go to the ends of the earth, alter the practices of governments, or redirect cultures.

Jesus must live again in His church.

In Christ,

Ron

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sermonindex

When the salt has lost its savour it is not a time to sit back and just say that what is happening in society is God's will.
I did not say that what is happening in society is God's will. But regarding salt. We have not lost our salt. Since I am of the mind set that all has been fulfilled, the salt was referring to the Jewish nation. However, that is not the topic at hand.

Ron, I really don't know what the trouble is, I agree with your post. I think you misunderstand my words, or at least I am not conveying myself properly. My only concern is that the Church need not involve itself with fighting with flesh and blood. I believe in the supernatural power of God in the midst of God's people. They are a moving force intermingling amongst the world, and with that people are bound to be affected. Not just personally but politically.

Paul in his day met with dignitaries and the like, spoke to them of the good news, some were affected by his message and righteousness blossomed. I remember reading about Tommy Hicks how that God told him to go to the President of Argentina to ask permission to come and hold meetings. The man did not believe in this gospel. I believe he sent him away, but Tommy went back and asked again. I think this time he put God to the test that if he could heal his wife of a cancer of some sort then he'd give his okay. God not only healed her, but that President swung open wide the doors for that man to preach the gospel and they had a revival that some still remember as being mighty.

I am for that brother. I felt the holy Ghost when I was writing that, I think the LORD wants to do that again. It took 3 months of Prayer and Fasting for Tommy to come into that authority in which God invested in him to do. Every 30 days he asked God, "Am I ready" and God said, "No your heart is still black with iniquity".

God bless YOU.

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sermonindex

When I read your post Thingsabove, all I could do was just love you.

In my beginnings of being a young believer many moons ago, I would have agreed with you on the accusation of being a Pharisee. I thought that I was right and every one else was wrong. I made the point very clearly. I really thought that I was in the will of God. And to some degree I was, because at some point in time, I tripped and fell and my face met the floor and I met God there. I realized just because I was given a gift didn't make me more than anyone else, in fact we become lessor. "To whom much is given, much is required", therefore, it's expedient that we become nothing in this world so that we can fulfil the law of Christ successfully. Pride will only make things difficult.

I know what Pride is and I hate it. I know what being a Pharisee is and I hate that too. I am thankful that I experienced them both, but I am more thankful that God had mercy on my soul and spared me. I am always taking an inventory of my soul, judging to find out anything that is there that might offend. And I certainly am not going to say that I don't have pride. Maybe I do.

If I have offended you and maybe this pride has surfaced and perhaps the very thing that I hate, that I do has tripped me up. I don't rule anything that anyone might see out, after all, we are our brother's keeper. It was never my intention to put you down, and with that I do apologize for being arrogant, having pride and being a Pharisee.

God bless you brother or/Sister. :-(

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ginnyrose

Ok, lets be real blunt here and I hope this is not too political.

Obama appears to be very friendly with the Muslims...but he is also with the gay community.

Can anyone make sense of this?

ginnyrose

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sermonindex

Hello thingsabove,

Alive to God I don't know if you live in America but In the United States the "People" are the higher power. The Law of our land is the Constitution within it is also the bill of rights.

[b]It is important to keep in mind that the submission to higher powers in America is to participate in the Governmental process. Again in America the people are the higher power[/b] elcting representatives to go conduct business and the law of the higher power is to then reelect or elect new representatives to go conduct the business again.

You are describing the democratic process which was defined about 500 years ago in England. I hope you are not implying that democracy leads a population to make God's choices for themselves - because that would be possible only if they had (each individually), God in their hearts, and were totally submitted to His will as Christ was.

(And, should not Christians crave [i]Theocracy?[/i])

When a leader thus chosen is not submitted to God, a population gets what it desired, and that is God's judgement upon them, just as it is God's judgement upon His own people, when they sit under false doctrine willingly, because it appeals to their carnal nature. 2 Tim 4:3, 4.

Yes and when Jesus took a whip and drove the money changers out He was stating the truth in love . When he rebuked very pointedly the Pharisee' who were rulers He was speaking in love.
Yes He was. And, He feels the same way abuut sin today. It was this kind of love which enabled Him to say: 'With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you [u]before I suffer[/u]:...' Luke 22:15.

Heb 12: '...who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons;

To be honest, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, if you're implying that the Creator of the Universe (the Word of God, now incarnate) did not have the right, as ChrisJD explained, to speak the truth (as He is the Truth), or demonstrate Truth, to show us what it [i]actually[/i] means to be a son of God, that is, for us, in the image of God, truly representing what [u]God[/u] is like, to those who do not know Him.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for [u]the manifestation of the sons of God[/u].

Btw, DT, we're 'cool'! :-D

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