Will you defend your family against attack or let them be killed?

is not that what the apostle peter did in the garden of Gethsemane? he did not stand idle while his master that he loved more then everything, he left his family and father and work to follow him, and his natural instinct was to defend the Lord Jesus. What did Jesus command him and tell him?

First we need to consider if someone attacks us, that God has allowed them to, just like God allowed satan to kill all of Jobs children God may allow something to happened to us that is beyond our understanding. but his ways are over our ways.

I think it may be not wise to set up a absolute law for this scenario.

But i have always said to muslims, why they need to defend their faith with the sword if their God is so mighty? I guess it is the same for us.

I cant remember what sermon Keith Daniel shares he was attacked by two men with a large knife, and as they cut into him and the blood started flowing, he started to pray for them and they where amazed and stopped, and he screamed after them "I want to see you in heaven" , i miss a lot, maybe someone can post the link if they remember the name of the sermon?

maybe in some cases God lead someone to defend themselves, i cant find any NT examples in my memory, but there may be anyway :-)

anyhow, it is not wise to give absolutes here i think, to say a man that will trust God with his family in all things is doing evil for not raising his hand against an enemy is not good either, and vice versa.

As i understand my bible we should not use violence ever, except when chasing out the moneychangers from our churches.

other then that i cant find Jesus doing it so i will not either. But the test still stands since i have not been in the situation myself, if it where to happened it may be so i will react with my natural man and in a moment raise up and do otherwise. But i pray that i would be in Gods will in all things.

Why the questiion?

In the OT, we find the law saying, "Thou shalt not kill." Although the term râtsach could mean both premeditated, unpremeditated, or accidental killing, its use in the Bible is almost always indicative of premeditated killing which we call murder. Warfare (or protecting your family for that matter) was treated as another thing entirely. Remember, the same God who told Israel not to murder also commanded them to go to war for the land that He was giving them. Not only that, but they were told to leave nothing alive of the people they were replacing.

But we live under the new covenant right? Some would say that the standard is now higher than under the old covenant, as though the old law has been replaced by a more comprehensive law that now judges motive along with action. The book of Hebrews is very plain on the matter. The old covenant has not been amended or revised, it has been abolished. Did you know that the law that said we should not wear clothing that was a blend of two fabrics (i.e. wool/cotton blend) and the law that said we should not eat pork are equally part of the law that says we should not commit murder. The ten commandments do not hold some kind of special status in the law that prevented their abolishment as well. The law is the law, all of it.

So that means we can kill right? What did Paul say in Romans? Since we are free from the law, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid! How shall we who are dead to sin, free from sin, live any longer therein? What is sin? Well, whatsoever is not of faith is sin. All other falls under this category. Disobedience is sin. We are to walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lust of the flesh. We do this by being obedient to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and to the written Word. If the Holy Spirit prompts us to go speak to a neighbor and we disobey, it is sin unto us. The new covenant is NOT the law plus a further addendum that raises the bar. The New covenant is absolute abolishment and nullification of the old covenant, including the ten commandments. Is the "standard" higher under the new covenant? The problem with this question is that is starts with a faulty premise, that being that we are still trying to be right with God by keeping a "standard" at all. We are to live by the spirit, not by a "standard" of godliness written down in rules, regulations, thou shalts, and thou shalt nots. We walk in the spirit, not in the flesh. Israel could not do that. Their entire relationship with God was bound up in keeping ordinances. Praise God I am free from ordinances.

Praise God that my sin was forgiven and dealt with 2000 years ago. Praise God that 1 John 1:9 applies to me as a believer. Praise God that if I forget to confess a sin, my spirit which has been perfected forever (Hebrews 10:14) does not become "un-born again". Praise God I live under grace.

God has given me a family and ordained that I be the head of that family. In that, I am called to serve my family, teach my family, lead my family, and protect my family. I made a vow on my wedding day to protect my wife. I personally would not think twice about pulling out my firearm and using it to protect my wife or children were a "meth crazed" intruder to come through my door trying to harm them. I am believing God actively that this scenario never happen. I see this as different entirely from my wife giving her life as a martyr from Christ, or myself for that matter.

Hope I have explained my opinion clearly. There is a lot of explanation involved that is a bit difficult to verbalize.

much wisdom you have shared brothers, my mind do caught something you shared, we all i believe would like to if nessacary die as a martyr for our faith to Christ, not that we would concider ourselves worthy to such a great honor. But if needed i hope i could be faithful to him.

But if the intruders come and before we can do anything they would say i am here to kill you for your faith in Christ, would we lower our firearm then and let them kill our families?

i know this is kind of ignorant question, and maybe should not be asked? but i find the whole starting question to be somewhat fussy when we start out with a "what if". Anyway, to me it seem strange we would not do any resistance when they kill us for the Lord but if any other reason we would.

Cant really phrase it that well, it just dont sit quite right in my spirit. But i thank you for sharing your thoughts, i have somethings to ponder.

Gods grace and peace.

Strange how we say we would give our lives without resistance as a martyr for Christ.
Yet we go to war and destroy countless numbers of lives to prevent the possibility of such a thing from ever happening.
Just a thought,

lee

DeepThinker wrote:
Depending on the circumstances. But I would probably do a spin or a cartwheel and really do some damage. My policy would be to shoot first and ask questions later.

you should really ask first if he is there to kill you as a christian or just a normal killing, if a christian you cant kill him since Jesus told us not to, rather when we are persucuted then we are blessed. But if no then shoot him by all means.

Hi chapel...

Yet we go to war and destroy countless numbers of lives to prevent the possibility of such a thing from ever happening.

For instance, in regard to the question in this thread, we might lament the potential loss of an attacker who might not have another opportunity to come to Christ. Yet, what about the lives of those who are in the home? Since each person is called to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling," then those individuals in our home might deserve the same sort of sympathy.

I agree with Krispy that this topic can cause debate. At the same time, it is very similar to those countless "non-resistance" threads that extend a particular view of non-resistance toward these sort of possible scenarios. While this particular question may be hypothetical scenario, it is just as hypothetical as a scenario regarding potential martyrdom. I have yet to meet a physical martyr; although, I have met men and women who have died while working in foreign lands, and even some who have been imprisoned for the work of the Lord. Yet I have met several individuals who have been attacked for reasons other than their faith.

I also agree with Krispy and others that a man has a duty to take care of the needs of his family. I believe that if a man's family is attacked, he should react accordingly -- whether they are attacked by a lion, a bear or an attacker. Of course, I don't think that any believing man will premeditatedly kill an intruder or an attacker. The goal is not to kill, but to stop the attack and protect the lives of those within your care.

Another opinion in answer to your question,
Can Christians Use Violence to Protect their Family?

This response to is from pages 70-74 of The Kingdom that Turned the World Upside Down © David Bercot. Used by permission.

http://loveyourenemies.wordpress.com/2007/12/24/can-christians-use-violence-to-protect-their-family-2/

KrispyKrittr wrote:
6,000,000 people were exterminated by the Nazi's in WWII. I guess as good Christians we should have done nothing.

Krispy

If i am not mistaken, i may be, did not Hitler offer both Great Brittan and America to take all the jews and he would ship them first class? did not some coutries even send back boats fully loaded with jews back to germany? So yes it could have been avoided even before the extermination, but then again, we have a sovereign God who is in controll. It is he who gives nations and stop wars, gives victories etc. True God may used those who did something, late but better late then never. He may have stirred their hearts of nations leaders or something, i do not know. And in regards to this issue i dont have all the answers, but the cowboy spirit of "ill shot first ask later" is not the spirit of Jesus, Jesus did not walk like that, myself is not perfect, i am not forcing people to adopt my beliefs or convictions either, but to me scripture points me to the Lord Jesus, he is love, he is the one we follow, and if in some area I act or speak in a way unlike Him, i want to repent of that. To live by those heavenly principals he lived by.

I just have a very hard time seeing Jesus shooting someone, let say some robber entered his house when he was young and lived with joseph and mary, would Jesus pick up the carpenter hammer and smash the robbers brain out on the floor, shot first ask later?

I dont see that Jesus in scripture, since i only can speculate i cant give an answer, but maybe he would have said something that the spirit prompted him to say that the robber would have stopped?

maybe that is the answer? not having a loaded gun ready, but having a loaded spirit ready to say what the Lord would have said?

anyway, i may be wrong, but i am glad this lady in this video did not shot first.

http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=35545ad0157361011735

appolus wrote:
Talked about and covered much.......
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=30531&forum=36

...which has also been talked about and covered much.

Hey Chapel,
Hey everyone posting to this thread:-)

I wanted to say thank you Chapel for posting this article and providing the link. It gave me a lot to think about. I actually have found myself in the kind of situation where someone broke into my home its a very terrifying thing to wake up and see a strange man standing in your room, especially when your a fourteen year old girl. God is good though and faithful, He was with me then and I pray and trust that He will be always. I have also found myself in another situation that was equally as frightening to me. After I first got married my husband worked a night shift and I found myself home alone often. Because of my prior experience I was not really ever comfortable being by myself. There had been some criminal activity in the neighborhood not for from us so I had my dads hand gun in the house. One night I found myself being woken up to the sounds of someone rattling around the back door of my house. I looked at the clock it was still hours before my husband was due home from work. I was panicked and I grabbed the gun, put my finger on the trigger ready to shoot whoever was trying to get through my door. I left the lights off, but I could see a figure through the back window of the door and I remember shaking and crying because I was so afraid and I did not want anything bad to happen. I remember yelling at the person on the other side of the door to just go away or I would shoot them. I heard more noise like something being knocked over so I began praying out to God and asking Him to help me. I prayed and prayed that the person would just go away. In that moment the Lord just gave me this overwhelming since to not fire the gun. He just gave me the strongest feeling of calm and peace in that moment to put the gun down. I placed the gun on the counter and just stood there listening and waiting. A few moments later I heard my husbands voice calling out to me, he had gotten off of work early and did not have his keys to let himself in the house. He had gone to the back door because he had been knocking at the front door of the house for over 15 minutes for me to let him in, he thought that I would hear him better since our room was not far from the back door. It had been storming out that night and I did not hear him knocking at all. I had almost shot my own husband because I had allowed fear to rule me. We do not have a gun in the house any longer, and unless the Lord shows me differently I probably never will. I don't pretend to have all the answers to all the "what if" questions that are thought up and posted about, all I can say is that no matter what I want to follow Jesus(as I am sure all of you do as well). I trust that in the moment no matter what is happening He is going to be there with me and my family and that is really all I need to know:-)

with care in Him
rdg

after thought: I just want to say that I do not have a problem with people who own guns for hunting or sport shooting, this was just me sharing my personal experience:-)

after after thought:-) Just one very last thing to share. This is my last post, I am leaving the forums for good. Its been on my heart to for awhile now. So I pray for you all the best.

We do not have a gun in the house any longer, and unless the Lord shows me differently I probably never will.

I am glad God spoke to you, i dont know how many shootings and killings happened in America under a year, but i know it is many thousands, compared to other countries america is many 100% higher. So many lives could be spared if there where no guns, although as you say it is fear that makes us get guns and weapons, we feel afraid and not in control and want to feel power and security.

The Gun can provide a false sense and feeling of power and security, but i thank God he is my shield, as he was Daniels in the lions den surrounded by hungry bloodthirsty lions God protected him, how much more his children!

Praise God for helping you and your family

John 2:14-16 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when [b]he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple[/b], and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

Does this passage describe a non-resistance Jesus. No this describes Jesus planning to go to the temple and clean it up. Can you see Jesus sitting down making his whip. Going into the temple forcing everyone, man and beast to leave the temple.

murrcolr wrote:
John 2:14-16 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when [b]he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple[ and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

Does this passage describe a non-resistance Jesus. No this describes Jesus planning to go to the temple and clean it up. Can you see Jesus sitting down making his whip. Going into the temple forcing everyone, man and beast to leave the temple.

its true he did that, but he dident do that when they attacked him personally, when they whipped him, hung him on a cross he did not attack them, but when they defiled Gods house he rose up, we often do the opposite, if [b]I[/b] and [b]my[/b] interest are threatened i react, but when Gods house is not in order, when people making money in Gods name in his house i dont drive them out. Se Jesus never defended himself when they did something to him personally, he did rebuke and drive people out, but that was in relationship with God for Gods interest, not his own comfort and security. There is a difference....

orthodox wrote:

but when they defiled Gods house he rose up, we often do the opposite,

Yeah...and do you also believe that He would do what He said to whosoever shall offend one of these little ones?

How can you say that Jesus was a pacifist in every situation?

Who are you looking for to come the second time?

Would it be a Man coming to rule the nations with a rod of iron?

I did not say he was a pacifist in every situation, i just said he never murdered any one, not even in self defense, not even when they killed him. And i know how he is coming back, but i am not called to follow that Christ, i am called to follow him as he walked on earth, not as God taking vengeance and killing all the wicked sinners and pronounce judgment upon them and cast them in hell, I am not called to that. That is His job and i trust he will do that, i am more focused on following him as he walked on earth.

Hi hmmhmm...

For my part (and in regard to the original question), I am not at all concerned about defending [i]myself[/i]. That is not to say that I wouldn't do what I can to avoid physical persecution. Jesus walked through the crowd when he was about to thrown from a cliff (Luke 4:28-30). Paul invoked his Roman citizenship in order to avoid an [i]unlawful[/i] beating. However, the theme of this particular thread is in regard to protecting your family.

I believe that I would protect my family from an attacker as it is my duty to look after them. I personally see nothing from Scripture that would cause me to neglect their defense in the face of attack.

Now, the passage that seems to be quoted the most often in regard to this concept is the one verse from Matthew 5:39. In this passage, we are told to "resist not evil." Jesus continued by telling those who are slapped on one cheek to "turn to him the other also." Somehow, there is a link made between this command to not react with vengeance and an outright prohibition to protect the weak or a family member.

Yet the passage is incomplete. That same passage says that if someone sues you, to give him even MORE than what he is seeking (verse 40). If one person wants you to go a mile, then you should go to (verse 41). We are to give to anyone who asks, and to not turn away from anyone who wants to borrow something from us (verse 42). Oddly, the subsequent passages are seldom followed to the "letter of the law." Some believers are downright stingy with their belongings! Some are downright stingy with "being right" when it really comes down to a matter of pride.

In fact, believers were actually suing one another within a few decades of Jesus's statement! When Paul learned about believers in Corinth taking other believers before unjust judges, he explained that they should have first gone to the Church to judge between these wrongs. However, he expressed this disappointment by the very fact that they had tried to use the secular law in order to determine what was right or wrong (I Corinthians 6:1-8). Paul explained that it would have been better to simply "take the wrong" (I Corinthians 6:7).

Personally (and not in regard to you, brother Hmmhmm), I am disappointed by some of the reactions of certain brethren who simply disagree with others in this regard. There have been some "non-resistant" brethren who aggressively resisted against those who disagree with them. While they don't use swords or guns, they use words that are unbecoming to the Body of Christ. Should we be so quick to speak and condemn brethren for their prayerful views? This has been done in public threads and even more vigorously in private messages. I think that this should be of great concern. As many people have said through the years, we can agree to disagree. However, we need to be VERY careful about dismissing the faith in Christ, relationship with Christ or spiritual maturity of others merely because we disagree on a matter.

orthodox wrote:

I am glad God spoke to you, i dont know how many shootings and killings happened in America under a year, but i know it is many thousands, compared to other countries america is many 100% higher. So many lives could be spared if there where no guns

Let's all take a moment and thank God that hmmhmm is not in political power in America.

Please consider the following:

It is not individuals who privately own guns that are responsible for massacres throughout history. It is tyrannical governments who do not fear the people but run rough shod over them and annihilate opposition.

I'm with Thomas Jefferson on this one:

"When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

You think Colombine was bad...you should have been in Cambodia with Pol Pot. You might as well be begging for a Russia under Stalin.

Anyway...it was Darwinism that was partially responsible for Colombine, not gun ownership.

I like the bumper sticker that says "Blaming guns for Colombine is like blaming spoons for Rosie O'Donnell being fat."

may I ask why other then perhaps hunting, would you as a child of the most high and sovereign God need a weapon to defend yourself? I dont blaim the guns, it is people that kill people, and the film you mention also says canada has as many guns but about 90% less killings, i dont know why, but my guess would be it is the "american cowboy" spirit that demands "my rights" no matter what, my comfort, my security, if it is threatened ill shot you. But i may be very off and maybe very wrong, but to me God is all mighty, all powerful, all able to save me and my family, to me it would be little faith for me to go get a gun to protect my family, if God allows someone to hurt me or my family my Gun wont stop that, God has allowed it, when we belieive the bible, not just say we do, but when we really believe rom 8:28 we will never fear what any man can do to us. Not even death, "who shall separate us from the love of Christ?"

or as that man said in that movie, they will take his gun out off his cold dead hands, he trusted his Gun, i trust my God.

If i am wrong i thank you for your patience towards me.

hello chris, i am not saying we should not protect our loved ones God has trusted to us to do care for, i am saying i am not so sure we should shot them at sight. Myself would not have a gun, so i guess if someone came i would try wrestle them down call the police and try share the gospel with them. If they would over power me and kill my children and wife and me, i would have to say God allowed him to do that.... so we go off to a better place. It aint that bad :-)

But i cant give an ultimate answer for any off you, just that [b]my[/b] interpretation and understanding of scripture, that from time to time have been known to be wrong, once or twice maybe :-) killing someone is not really what Jesus was about, so if i am following him how can I? i just dont get it... i have a hard time shoting people i am supposed to love, and yes not protecting my family show i dont really love them, but i trust God with them and I trust him to protect me and guide me if he where to allow such a situation to occur, i trust he gives grace to every situation we encounter.

Should that include shooting someone, then may it be so, but right now, i cant see that in scripture, or in our Lords leading.

I do respect and love you brethren, I am just concerned when the brothers and sisters of our lord says it is ok to shoot people under special conditions, and for a moment i will accept that thought.

Lets say it is ok to shot someone in this situation, in any other situation it would be sin right? are there other sins that in special situations are ok? myself have sometimes struggled financially, there have been days when we have not known what we should feed our seven children for breakfast the next day, in a way that to is a life threatening situation, if that would continue for days someone might die or get sick, would it be ok to steal then? it sin otherwise when i am doing it for money, but if it benefits my family? not only benefits but may actually save their life?

or you in america? let say you dont have health care insurance? your child gets sick, you ost your job, your child will die if you dont get money, according to your reasoning, if you dont get that money you dont love your child? could i rob a bank and that would be ok? to me it is faulty thinking somewhere in the line of reasoning. From start with these types of questionings.

we know it is wrong to kill another man, we know it is wrong not helping those we love and have been entrusted to care for.

I dont know how God will do it but i trust him to help.

I hope you can sense some of what i try express , i am not as good with words as you chris, but there is much that just dont sit right with how easy many seem to view this issue to shot another life, end it , end a souls opportunity to be with christ for eternity, and just go "shot first ask later" , to me this is not really christlike, i dont know as i said before what Christ would have done, but i am hesitant to say he would shot them, would he just stand and watch? no i doubt that to, he was not such a man he would do that either.

i trust Gods spirit would lead us to do as Christ would have done, whatever that would be.

I am disappointed by some of the reactions of certain brethren who simply disagree with others in this regard. There have been some "non-resistant" brethren who aggressively resisted against those who disagree with them. While they don't use swords or guns, they use words that are unbecoming to the Body of Christ. Should we be so quick to speak and condemn brethren for their prayerful views? This has been done in public threads and even more vigorously in private messages. I think that this should be of great concern. As many people have said through the years, we can agree to disagree. However, we need to be VERY careful about dismissing the faith in Christ, relationship with Christ or spiritual maturity of others merely because we disagree on a matter.

I think you are right in that brother, thank you for sharing that concern and warning. God bless you Chris.

The reason Jesus never did anything when they whipped and hung him on the cross was because that was the Father's will, like wise when he made the whip and drove them out and turned over the money changers tables.

There is no difference because they are both the will of the Father.

John 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear.

Why did Peter a disciple of Jesus have a sword if the message was non-resistance? If Jesus message was one of non-resistance why was Peter so ready to use it? Why without any hesitation did he lop of the mans ear in the defense of Jesus.

John 18:20 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

Jesus makes Peter aware that this is the will of the Father and to sheath the sword.

Jesus had one focus and that is doing the Will of the Father. If that meant being violent in the temple then he did it, if that meant giving his life up and being beaten, whipped and mocked and hung on a cross he did it.

Also consider Paul who was willing to use the might of the Roman Army when he found out there was plot against his life Acts 23:12-33.

orthodox wrote:

i am not called to follow that Christ

If I had made that statement I might be troubled after writing it. Are you?

Did you want a chance to re-write that?

after praying i dont, I am not sure you understand what i meant? english is my second language and sometimes my words to few and not the clearest. But i am not called to follow Christ as a judge and pour out his wrath on this wicked world. I may be wrong but do please correct me and show me if so.

Am i wrong in saying the Christ we are called to follow is the Christ that walked the earth as a human leaving us an example? actually we are commanded to walk as he walked as I understand the bible. when he comes back again he comes as a judge, i am not called to judge in this life, i may be in the next, judge angels etc, but that is up to him to decide.

Jesus had one focus and that is doing the Will of the Father. If that meant being violent in the temple then he did it, if that meant giving his life up and being beaten, whipped and mocked and hung on a cross he did it.

I agree most of what you share brother, being in Gods will is the thing, if it means defending or if it means to die. God help us discern his will at all times. even if it means death and suffering. The apostle Paul also suffered much and except the one time you mention he did not defend himself with a sword. But as you said, seek the fathers will and i am convinced he will help us if it is his will we should live, is it his will we should die no gun in the world would help us.

Brethren,

Jesus said he that liveth by the sword dieth by the sword. The apostles did not carry carnal weapons to use against others but their weapons were mighty through God. The apostles were sent by Jesus to do as he had done and Jesus didn’t use carnal weapons. We are all called to be apostles. We are sent by our Lord Jesus Christ the chief Apostle to reconcile others in his stead. We are to be filled with the Holy Ghost and use the weapons of the Spirit. The Holy Ghost is powerful and the only protection we need to carry out the work of God on this earth. God can send angels; God can stop a man in his tracks. We are to be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might. God is our shield and our exceedingly great reward. We are to go in the name of the Lord.

To now answer the question on this thread, I want everyone to know that God protects my family. He protects them when I’m not looking and when I’m not around them, he is there. I have entrusted my family to God for his protection and salvation. God being my helper I would walk right into harms way for my wife and family believing God and his spiritual weapons. I would pray in the strong name of Jesus believing God can stop a man and even save a man by the power of his Spirit. The scripture tells us that we are to be his witnesses and we need to be full of the Holy Spirit with power to be enabled to be effective for God. I think that this is the problem, when we think of carnal weapons, it is not knowing the spirits power to those who trust in God. The bible says in eph 3:20 that he is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we could ask or think according to the power that worketh in us. Those who don’t know his power will resort to carnal weapons. We must be filled with the Holy Ghost in order to walk the way Jesus walked.

Blessings to all!

I have not been following this threads closely but as I perceive it folks are wondering what would they do if their family is being attacked.

All I can say is that for our own church people is the males would do whatever they can but shooting to kill is not one of the options. Seems to me this point is too many times overlooked, as though shooting to kill is the only option one can use to protect/defend himself against harmful behaviors.

(Oh, have you not read the recent incident in FL of a man who awoke at night hearing a noise in the house who took his gun and killed the 'intruder' only to find he killed his fiancee? So much for self-defense.)

ginnyrose

rbanks wrote:

The apostles did not carry carnal weapons to use against others

John 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.

Scripture says something different from you

We are all called to be apostles.

1 Cor 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

No we are not all called to be Apsotles.

orthodox wrote:

God being my helper I would walk right into harms way for my wife and family believing God and his spiritual weapons.

So if you walked in on someone (I want to be discreet here...please be discreet in your response as well...I beg you) who was violating your wife or daughter, you mean to tell me that you would drop to your knees and pray instead of try to deliver them?

Have you talked to your wife about your views? If so, what does she think?

If you are wondering what I would do, I would most likely turn into that man's worst nightmare.

Enough said.

Orthodox,

I don’t know how you got “bowing on knees” with “walk into harms way”. It seems clear to me that from all your replies and the way you add words and twist people’s words on this forum that you are after your own agenda. I am seeking God’s will and trusting him to live out that perfect will of God. I said I would walk into harms way with spiritual weapons, that is, being filled with the spirit and speaking in the name of Jesus whatever the spirit gave me to say. My wife is also filled with the Holy Ghost.

The scripture teaches us that we are crucified with Christ and that we are to be dead to self but alive to God. We are to walk in the power of the Spirit. I could tell you of times that I have had supernatural things to happen in my life but I don’t think you would understand because you seem to always resort to carnal weapons and try to make it look like those who don’t want to use carnal weapons are not protecting their family.

I had rather live in the power of the Holy Spirit trusting in God than to live in fear thinking that I need to resort to carnal weapons. I had rather believe God to look out for my family than to falsely believe that I need to resort to carnal weapons in order to protect my family thinking that I could protect them better than God could. Now I’m not telling you orthodox what to do because you might need carnal weapons. I am not the one to tell you what to do. There are people that know how to use a carnal weapon and can use it well but not me. Since I have now been baptized in the Holy Ghost, I never want to resort to carnal weapons but only being strong in the Lord and the power of his might. I have so much more confidence in the Holy Ghost than I do a gun or any other carnal weapon.

Orthodox it would seem from all your posts that you haven’t experience the baptism in the Holy Ghost but if you ever got a powerful infilling you would write differently. Brother I could tell you about some mighty experiences I have had but unless you have been filled yourself you would find it hard to believe. Maybe I could ask you a question, would you walk across a yard where a man looked upset with a crowbar in his hand walking back to a vehicle with a woman and children in it, to witness to the man not knowing what he was going to do. Also with a Rottweiler dog that has been trained to be mean and protect, who had been on a chain, but this time was loose in the yard with an invisible fence. Would you walk right into that dog’s territory? Well I know a man who did, being full of the Holy Ghost, walk right across that yard and the dog took off after him like he was going to tear into him, but the man never flinched and never got scared. The dog got right to the man’s leg but only whimpered and turned back to the house. The man with the crowbar was stunned, because the dog whimpered away, but he listened to the gospel that day.

Blessings to you!

We are children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

50 Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

And what was one thing Abraham did, that is also written in the NT?

Gen 14:12 And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.

13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.

14 [b]And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.

15 And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, AND SMOTE THEM, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.[/b]

16 And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.

17 And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.

18 [b]And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand.[/b] And he gave him tithes of all.

And mentioned in the NT.

Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

Why did God bless Abraham here? Because Abraham finally had enough faith to trust God and defend his family. It's called LOYALTY and COURAGE.

Why didn't Abraham "just pray"? Because God does not DO IT, ....YOU DO IT, through the strength and power of God.

Jesus is very much into "self defence" when it is lawful and available.

luke 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

36 Then said he unto them, [b]But now,[/b] he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: [b]and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.[/b]

It's interesting that I just watched a documentary on the Sword last night. It is a weapon of agression and self defence. The equivalent today would be a "gun".

Abraham and his trained servants went out with swords.

Jesus would have no problem if you defended your wife and family or yourself, against a criminal nutcase breaking into your home or any other place.

Jesus does not desire "martyrs", he desires "LIVING' sacrifices. You can't do much for God dead.

If God would have ever delivered anyone in such a situation it would have been Lot, and God would not have sent Abraham to do what he did. This act showed that Abraham had LOYALTY, and courage. Something SORELY LACKING in many Chritians today, who will sell out their brothers and sisters at the drop of a hat.

Matt 24:9 Then shall they (professed Christians) deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many (Christians) be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound (in the heart of many "Christians"), the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he (that Christian) that shall endure unto the end (not doing what is listed above), the same shall be saved.

Not defend your wife and children, drop to your knees and pray? After the guy get's done with them, your next!

Now to forgive someone for doing something like this, if you could not prevent it. Or to forgive youself, that is Christian. But to sit by and do nothing IF you could do something, you might as well have murdred them yourself. And I believe anyone with that mentality, God would considder you a murderer as well.

1 Tim 5:[b]But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.[/b]

If God considderes you a worse than a heathen just for not providing for your own family, how much more for not protecting them when you could. After all you don't just sit around and pray that God will put bread on the table. You have to get out and WORK (oh sorry I know that's a four letter word to some of you.)

And what about this?

Psl 82
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3[b] Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.[/b]

5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
John 10:34

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

It is a mamby pamby spoiled and unrealistic society we live in that produces weak ineffectual effeminate men, who would sit there and just watch their wife and children be abused, murdered and raped. This is what is known as being "without natural affection".

"Without natural affection", is not gay, persay, but [b]not having even the natural definsive instincts that any animal has for it's young.[/b] It's actually worse than being homosexual, because even homosexuals will defind and die for their children and one another. So far gone, so far away from the truth, that even the most basic natural instinct that even a lowly dumb animal has is MISSING.

You're supposed to love your wife as yourself. I guarentee that if some guy attacts you and wanted to rape you, you might put up a little fight. I doubt if you would just lay there passivly and "pray".

Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. The whole problem with getting in there and getting "involved" is that you might get "hurt" and also die in the process.

That we trust in God, that we pray and that God protects and guides us is and should be a surity. But to actually "fight" if you have to is also at times, of God.

That you should build an arsenal, I do not advocate. Not necessarily even going out and buying a gun. But to FIGHT in a given situation is perfectly biblical and of faith also.

(Had to edit this a million times) Because I want to be clear, that if the situation warrents it, and IF you have the power, it is your responcibility to trust God and DO SOMETHING. If you are truly walking by the spirit of God, you will have the power and the means, God will make a way to escape. And no I do not advocate killing someone if you do not have to.

El Harris

2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

2 John 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

murrcolr wrote:

rbanks wrote:

The apostles did not carry carnal weapons to use against others

John 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.

Scripture says something different from you

We are all called to be apostles.

1 Cor 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

No we are not all called to be Apsotles.

Please show me one incident in the bible after pentecost that any of the apostles used a carnal sword against any other person. They only used the sword of the Spirit.

When I said called to be an apostle I was implying to the christian to be filled with the Spirit to function as an apostle because Jesus said that we can be sent as he was sent.

The truth is many are called but few chosen.

Blessings to you!

I removed this because I know there are women on here who have been violated and they are not at the place of understanding and I would NEVER slap them in the face with Scripture.

Pray one for another.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
All these hypotheticals... dreamed up by people who have never been in such situations.

Some of you are no better than "arm chair quarterbacks" who think you have all the answers to situations you have never been in.

"I would just pray while this man has his way with my family!" Sure you would. And if you really did then you deserve to share a jail cell with the criminal. May you rot there.

I dont mean to get personal about this, but some of you are not men in my eyes OR God's.

Krispy

Amen, I was going to ask if some had truly been in this situation. I enjoyed your testimony also. God gave you both - the weapons with a brain AND His Spirit to guide you.

Thank you for this!

KrispyKrittr wrote:
All these hypotheticals... dreamed up by people who have never been in such situations.

Some of you are no better than "arm chair quarterbacks" who think you have all the answers to situations you have never been in.

"I would just pray while this man has his way with my family!" Sure you would. And if you really did then you deserve to share a jail cell with the criminal. May you rot there.

I dont mean to get personal about this, but some of you are not men in my eyes OR God's.

Krispy

++EDIT++ PS... that was not a quote of anyone, that was a generalization of what some are saying.

You hit the nail on the head brother!

I also enjoyed your testimony concerning how you handled a real live situation.

I am definitely not a total nonresistant person. I believe in resisting the devil and anyone who would try and harm another person.

I respect law enforcement and the military and all in authority ordain by God.

Blessings to all!

You are all actually agreeing with each other, but in a most disagreeable way. Must it be like this? Where is the mark of Jesus in all of us?

ccrider wrote:
"Amen. Provision seems to be a general statement here. Although the obvious presents itself, providing protection I think can also be applied. But I also say that the battle for protection isn't just in our physical capacity... not every man in every household can walk, run, or move swiftly.... it is in the prayer closet. I had surgery a couple of years ago that left me medicated and incapacititated... my protection was rendered useless. So my trust and strength was in God's faithfulness to provide what I clearly couldn't. As much as food, drink, and shelter are all noble things in provision... a prayerless man in the household does his whole family a disservice in his duty of provision." ccrider

I for one certainly hope the quotes concerning prayer while watching someone having their way with the family was not directed towards this. If so, I would like to vomit at the accusation.

My point was that I had limited ability to protect my family and prayed for protection for them BEFORE I even went in. Come on now. I don't care who you are, anyone who has a family will step in and protect from an intruder no matter what the physical circumstance. My simple question is this... as head of the household, men, is it necessary to pray for the protection of your family? I'm not around my daughter when she is in school.... I'm limited in my capacity to protect her. As one who has investigated heanous crimes against children, I attest to the fact that protection is needed. But I also know that many of those crimes were commited outside of the father's capacity to protect. Period. I've had enough of the blow hards that can't seem to understand their limitations for protection and am equally tired of those who want to use scripture to tie one's hand behind their backs and make people feel that physical protection of those, such as family, or a situation where physical protection is needed isn't the Christian way. I won't be so bold as to say that either aren't people of God or that they should rot. If I want to get personal, it will have to be for something a little less ridiculous than all this.

Ccrider,

The thing that Krispy said at the beginning of his post is what I was referring to the most.

The "if case scenarios" is what I don't like either because no one really knows until you actually experience it.

But I am with you concerning spiritual weapons of prayer and the name of Jesus Christ our Lord who never leaves us. Putting on the whole armor of God with the sword of the Spirit.

My preparation is in God and my weapons are mighty through God and I don't carry around carnal weapons to even use for protection. I don't have to worry about a carnal weapon misfiring or if I use it right or if it really does the job. My trust is in the Lord and greater is he who is in me than he who is in the world.

Blessings to all!

Hi Sister Ginny,

I have not been following this threads closely but as I perceive it folks are wondering what would they do if their family is being attacked.

All I can say is that for our own church people is the males would do whatever they can but shooting to kill is not one of the options. Seems to me this point is too many times overlooked, as though shooting to kill is the only option one can use to protect/defend himself against harmful behaviors.

I agree with what you are saying about resisting without an attempt to kill. I think that this is seldom the motivation in such cases. I've never heard of a person (let alone a believer) who wants to shoot to kill someone during an attempt to protect their family (or someone else). Rather, they simply attempt to disarm the person or thwart off the attack while in the attempt to protect others.

I also agree that this somehow gets lost in these sort of discussions. It seems that some have attempted to paint [u]any[/u] sort of resistance for the purpose of defending a family or the weak as a characteristic of bloodthirsty men. There is a preeminent difference in regard to motive.

In order to be just a little more clear, I don't even own a gun (someone quizzed me in this regard in a PM).

As far as this being an entirely "hypothetical" scenario: I have never had to rely on any sort of physical force to thwart off an attacker. However, as a teenager, I was in a situation where an elderly woman in the Church that I attended was confronted by a middle aged man. This man was a homeless veteran who had been permitted to sleep in one of the Church buildings for a while. The man had outlasted his invitation and was doing some bad things on the property. He was unarmed, but he was very strong and highly agitated with this lady. He became so aggressive that it appeared like he was about to hit her. By instinct, I jumped between the man and this elderly lady. I was going to make sure that he wasn't going to harm her. He did push me, but I was able to allow the elderly woman to walk away. He looked like he was about to hit me, but I did my best to make peace with this man. While he was still angry, he didn't hit me. He knew that the police would probably be on their way, so he gathered his belongings and left.

I do know a believing family where the young son was forced to shoot an intruder who had tied him and his scantily clothed mother to a chair. The attacker had broken into the home, attacked the woman and tied both the mother and the little boy loosely and in the room that contained the hunting locker. The man was wielding a machete knife and had a gun in the back of his pants.

After he tied them up, he went downstairs to steal the belongings. This woman and boy were able to untie themselves. The mom tried to open the gun locker, but she didn't know the combination. After a while, the intruder tried to come back into their room. The mother was trying to block the door from opening my sitting on the ground trying to keep the door shut as the man continually tried to kick it in. During one of the attempts, the boy saw that the man had his gun in hand. They screamed to the man to take what he wanted and to leave, but he refused. He continued his attempt to kick in the door. Finally, the 10 yr old boy miraculously opened the gun locker (even though he didn't know the combination either), picked up a gun and shot through the door. Sadly for the intruder, the shot struck him in the head and killed him instantly.

While these might be hypothetical scenarios, they are currently less "hypothetical" than being persecuted to the point of becoming a martyr for the name of Jesus. Further, there seems to be a variety of opinions regarding the scope of interpretation of "turning the other cheek." Some see it as an outright prohibition of resistance in every scenario, while others see it limited to either [i]self[/i] defense and others see it limited to a particular concept regarding the persecution for faith. The same passage tells us to "give to everyone who asks." Yet do we do this in EVERY situation? Do we give to Jehovah's Witnesses who knock on our doors asking for donations in exchange for a Watchtower magazine? Do we give to every person who stands outside of the Walmart asking for donations (including Muslims collecting for their causes)? Do we give to others when our families are in need?

Is it possible that there are certain precepts that supersede others? Are we obligated to take care of the needs of our families BEFORE we are obligated to "give to everyone who asks?" Perhaps this same sort of thing should be considered in this issue?

is it necessary to pray for the protection of your family? I'm not around my daughter when she is in school.... I'm limited in my capacity to protect her.

Absolutely, unequivocally, YES! There is no other way one can can live in faith. And when one can learn to trust wholly in God for your own protection as well as the rest of the family, you will experience a liberating freedom from fear. Fear cripples, incapacitates a person, always.

A testimony: I am a short woman, less then 5' tall. When I was a young woman I weighed less then 100 pounds (unfortunately it is more now :-( ). Any man could easily have taken advantage of me simply because of my size and gender. I lacked brute strength to defend myself against anything large - I want to say anything larger then a fire ant, but that would not be entirely true. So, I checked out my options and knew my sole protection for my physical well-being rests totally with God. No one, absolutely no one can provide me with adequate protection. Hey, not even dad could! How else how can you understand me falling off of a hay wagon and getting run over by it with him driving the tractor pulling this wagon?

Many years later I was driving through the seedy part of Saginaw, MI in the wee hours of the morning. Streets were well lit, and deserted but it was a very dangerous part of town. We got to our motel and there were people milling around. I was there alone with my son and granddaughter. I felt some fear, but I prayed earnestly for God's protection. So, it has been: when I experience any sense of fear, I pray earnestly for the Lord protection. I also know that if harm were to come my way, it will not take God by surprise but will happen with Him looking on and providing me with the grace to deal with it.

Trusting the LORD delivers one from paranoia and fear. Fear puts one is severe bondage. Trust is liberating. Putting trust to work is faith. This is where I want to live each and everyday and it requires an act of the will to exercise trust and faith.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Thanks Ccrider for those undeserved gracious words!

ginnyrose wrote:

Trusting the LORD delivers one from paranoia and fear. Fear puts one is severe bondage. Trust is liberating. Putting trust to work is faith. This is where I want to live each and everyday and it requires an act of the will to exercise trust and faith.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

I agree!

Count me in this one sister. This is my desire also. Faith in God to override all fear of not being able to trust Him completely.

I got to go for now. Blessings to all!

Greetings ginnyrose

You wrote:Trusting the LORD delivers one from paranoia and fear. Fear puts one is severe bondage. Trust is liberating. Putting trust to work is faith. This is where I want to live each and everyday and it requires an act of the will to exercise trust and faith.
__

I wanted to respond to this.I have been reading these threads for the past few weeks and I will admit that I am beginning to stumble because of them. In all honesty I have started having nightmares and am feeling fearful over thoughts of "what if" scenarios. Some old childhood memories have come up and I find myself struggling.

When I was four years old, my older brother did things to me that were inappropriate.(bad things don't always happen from strangers) I was however terrified by what had happened, I was confused and became very fearful. Needless to say the ramifications of that event have had a lasting affect on me. Fear in many ways was a constant companion in my life. When I was ten years old we lived in a small house outside of town, my parents worked a graveyard shift that was an hour and half drive away from our home. At night my two sisters and younger brother were left at home to ourselves for five nights a week. One evening I was in my room playing with my dolls when I noticed someone watching me through my bedroom window, I ran to tell my parents but by the time by dad checked things out, whoever was there had left. I remember begging my dad to not go to work that night. I was so afraid. He was convinced that it must have been my imagination and we needed the money so off to work they went. I did not sleep much that night. Two days later my older sister was changing in our room and she thought she had seen someone watching her through the window. Again my dad said it was probably just our imagination but just in case he would have the sheriffs office drive by and check on us at night. Several weeks passed and nothing more happened so it was decided that it must have been our imagination. It was the end of summer and my parents were getting ready for work, later that night my sisters and brother all went to bed early, school was starting and we had to get back into our routine. I remember waking up as my sister was shaking me and telling me to get out of bed. She had heard noises and was sure someone was trying to get into the house. She woke my brother and sister up and called the sheriff office. We turned on all the lights and began making as much noise as we could, yelling and screaming stuff. It wasn't long before the police arrived and found out that there had been an attempted break in to our house. Both my parents window screen and the one to my bedroom had been ripped out and the window sill showed sign of tampering. This time since it had rained that day there were foot prints that clearly showed someone had been there. It turned out that the man living just a short ways behind us was a convicted child molester out on parole. Again I was terrified over what happened. I hated being home with out my parents there. I hated being home alone even more. I began praying every night "please God watch over us and protect us. Please don't let anybody hurt us." I would pray that every night for years even well into my adult years. That fear of the "what if" was so strong that for a very long time it controlled me. I guess in some ways it still must be there lingering with me because in all honesty reading over these threads and thinking about what could happen, I found myself waking up from the worst dream and praying that prayer again.

I just wanted to say that I respect many of you who have shared their heart here on this matter from both sides of this issue. Considering my past history I am not sure that I know how I would react if someone came into my home today. Fear is a very strong motivator, but I don't want to let fear rule me any longer. For me I just really want to trust in the Lord that no matter what comes He is there with me and will help me through. These kinds of topics can be a real stumbling block for many so I pray that each one of us will seek Father before they contribute so that He might be glorified in all that we do and write. Thank you Ginnyrose for reminding me that it is vital that we keep our focus on the Lord and have faith and trust in Him.

God Bless
maryjane

MJ , your testimony made me remember these sermons, at one time they spoke much to me.

[url=http://media.sermonindex.net/11/SID11549.mp3]Pray for protection by Keith Daniel[/url]

this sermon just in the first 15 minutes he shares a testimony about an attack, not on his family but on himself, thought those who might fear such as MJ shared, i thought it could be encouraging.

[url=http://media.sermonindex.net/4/SID4387.mp3]if you faced death right now by keith daniel[/url]

Perhaps some of you may recall that a year and a half ago I was mugged by three men. They were throwing punches before I even had a chance to offer my possessions without a fight. Previously I had been in many fights and even felt comfortable drawing a blade; after my conversion I was inspired by Jim Ellliot's words, "I'm ready for death, they aren't," and determined that if it was about defending myself I would not fight.

Well, my hand went for my utility knife and just as suddenly I recalled my desire to be a witness of grace. I said a one-word prayer ("Lord") and shouted, "stop, wait!" They stopped. I said, "I'll give you my stuff, but I won't fight you. I have something important I must tell you." One of them asked what was in my pocket. I took out my knife and handed it to him, saying, "this was a wedding gift and I'm giving it to you willingly. There's something I must tell you." He said, "I can't take that man," and gave it back!

Long story short, they took my .mp3 bible (with Rolfe Barnard sermons on it, titled "the God of the Bible kills people!") but fled when I tried to witness to them of the gospel. I was physically trying to hand one of them an expensive piece of electronics if he would just let me tell my story but he refused! So I just shouted the truth as they ran.

Eight months later the one who stole my .mp3 player found me (at the same spot on my bike commute) and asked for forgiveness, offering a nice iPod for what he had stolen. He told me that after that event his life changed, he wanted to be a good person now. He gave up drugs, crime, and was set to be a minor-league baseball player. I told him, "friend, you'll be the best person in hell, unless you have Christ's righteousness counted to you by faith." He went away sober, and I haven't seen him since.

All of this is to say that I have been in such "hypothetical situations." I was free to be gracious with my life.

Yet, I would still feel within my biblical freedoms to use force in restraining or ending an evil doer, for the very fact that it falls in the sphere of governmental authority God has bestowed upon man. Rom 13, the sword is not given in vain and it is a ministry given by God.

I do not think it is sin to be a police officer, nor do I count it a lack of faith for police officers to use guns and handcuffs instead of merely praying that God invisibly restrains each foe. David wrote, "some trust in horses, others in chariots, but as for me, I trust in the Lord God." This same David used many weapons - but his trust was in God to work through their ordinary use.

If I defend a person with force, it is with faith in God to deliver the criminal into the hands of judgment in whatever way God determines. I will use the ordinary means, starting at the least violent; it is for God to exert extraordinary means.

Just my two cents.

For the whole story of my mugging, you can go to my blog and search "mugged" in the search bar.

MaryJane,

This is dreadful how the devil has used others to hurt you so....I have never been molested by anyone so in one sense I cannot relate but God is bigger then me or any counselor or law officer or parent...

When ever something bad happens I often times note how it could have been much worse then it was. Can you understand this mentality?

Consider - this molester could have killed someone, but it did not happen, did it? God allowed you to witness evil and can you look at this with the eyes that God does and see what He sees? Can you see how God did protect you all and praise Him for that? I suspect we are all protected from so much more evil then we ever realize.

MaryJane, I would encourage you to listen to the sermon Christian recommended: "If you faced Death right now" by Keith Daniel. He recommended you listen to the first 15 minutes, I suggest you listen to the entire sermon. It is that powerful.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Hi Frank,

The "what if," people are not about the Lord's work.

In addition, the many “non-resistance” threads that have been created over the years have also mentioned various hypothetical scenarios. However, they point to a different range of solutions for such possible situations. Indeed, I think that I can remember far more threads that introduced certain hypothetical situations which suggest an embrace of a particular “non-resistance” view. In many of these threads, an overview of “non-resistance” is discussed at length, but the extent in regard to its application is not discussed at length (particularly, when, where and how to apply this concept in real life).

Moreover, as some have pointed out, these are NOT merely hypothetical scenarios for many people. I have been in a situation where I felt that I needed to defend an elderly woman. Others have spoken in regard to situations that they have encountered that confirm the value of such a discussion. I think that many married men and fathers feel that they are in daily situations where they could be called upon to physically protect a wife, a child, a family member or even someone else during such a situation.

Now, this isn’t a “fear” issue – no matter how broadly someone wants to paint it. As believers, what should we fear? The worst that the devil could do to us is kill our bodies! So what? To live is Christ and to die is gain (Philippians 1:21)! The best thing that will ever happen to a believer is to breathe our last breath! To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (II Corinthians 5:8)! Thus, this discussion is not meant to invoke fear (at least on my part), but contemplation.

There has been a lot of talk on these threads about protecting women and yet Maryjane's mind is assualted by the "what if the devil does this to you," or what if the devil does that to you," people..........hmmmmm.

I do, however, agree with Krispy that these sorts of threads can often lead to unhealthy debate. One brother (or group) can often become pitted against another in terms of the exact extent of the solution, while others can haughtily proclaim their own views as if they are undoubtedly God’s in the matter. Thus, they feel that there is no need for discussion when they see this issue as “clear” in their own eyes. So, on this ground, I agree that we must be careful within such discussions to avoid even the appearance of vanity or spiritual arrogance.

I believe that God can protect His children from an evil attack. I have heard wonderful testimonies of this! I know that the Lord can provide supernatural protection from such things. At other times, the Lord can use an instrument to help protect someone. I believe that this protection can come in the form of a police officer, a fire fighter and even a good husband or father. Yet, even if that protection never came – we are still a child of the King of Kings! This world is so…temporary. My heart, like all of those who love the Lord, longs to see the face of our God. It is the underlying aching of our hearts! Yet, for the time being, there is still a work for us to complete in this world. We also have certain duties, including “providing for our own” (I Timothy 5:8).

Sister MaryJane, let me encourage you to remain strong in the Lord! There is no fear that should overtake us…because we are children of the King. He created the entire universe – and each of us is at the center of His thoughts! He knows how to take care of us. There is nothing in all of creation that we need to fear, dear sister! We can say with the three Hebrew young men in Babylon that God is able to deliver us from any fiery furnace! Yet, even if He did not, we still have an eternal hope (Daniel 3:17-18)! For us, even death has lost its sting! In fact, death is merely a promotion to the point that we can finally see the face of our God! I have prayed for you tonight. I pray that you are not fearful from this sort of discussion, but that you realize the power of the Holy Spirit dwells within you. Be encouraged that you rest firmly in the hand of He who knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10)! Be encouraged, dear sister, for you belong to the Lord of all Creation!

:-)

I am thankful for what you all have shared, some of it has been very upbuilding, I do agree we should do what we could to protect our entrusted and beloved ones. But what i have not come to peace with is that of killing another person. To me it is sin, yet i would say to stand and watch my wife and children being killed or violated would also be sin.

So something sure is needed to be done in such a situation, but what seem to me dont fit is if to kill a man in such a situation is not wrong, in another case it is sin. Are there other situations where sin would be right?

Let say as i said before and no one addressed that, if my family starves and the risk for death is days away, would the right thing for a real man to steal in order to save his families life?

I think of when the days come when no one will be able to buy or sell without a mark on their hand or forehead. I know different opinions on what that means exactly, but suppose that means just what it says, will it not be sin in those days to steal to feed my family?

What really seem to be the issue is for me killing is sin, but if not always, then is this true of other things as well?

if my children need winter clothes and i cant afford to buy one, since the threat of sickness and freezing to death would a real man steal one in order to protect his childs life?

Now i agree he would do something, i would but when it comes down to it and there where no other option, when we reach a certain point of threat, do we have the right to do what ever nessacarry to help those that are entrusted to us? yes have many said, mysef are doubtful to whatever, something yes but whatever? not sure. I see then the same principle must be for food , clothing, and medicine etc. If my child gets sick, so sick I cant pay the hospital bill, if i dont rob a bank dont i love my child? if there are no other options?

I dont want to rob the bank, its not for my benefit, its for the protection of those God has entrusted me with. Would that be right?

i know these are the same "what if" scenarios. But I would be grateful for your thoughts on this, or is this only valid in the case of someone breaking into our house? and if so how do we know that?

First, the testimony:

Five years ago, my wife and I were vacationing at a cabin near Gatlinburg. Our first night there, there was a terrible storm, trees downed and tornado watches, etc. At about 1:30 AM, Peg awoke by some sounds, noticed that the electric seemed to be off. She woke me, and I heard sounds also, suspecting some critter had made its way to the trash can on the porch. When I got up to investigate, the electric was off, indeed, and I went to the kitchen door to look at what was scavenging. There was an intruder with a long box under his arm approaching the door. I tried the porch light switch - didn't work. Peg picked up the phone, it was dead. I put my hand on the doorknob, prepared to open the door and scold this disturber - in my soul I heard, "Don't open the door." I pecked on the window glass and shouted, "What do you want?!" a couple of times. The man hesitated a moment, turned and walked off the porch - we heard a car start and drive away. Mercifully, our cell phone did work, and we called the police, and began to pack our bags in the dark, by the light of our cell phone. Twenty minutes or so, the officer came, took our information. I asked if we could use his flashlight to finish getting our things together, and accompanied him to his squad car. He got his light, and shined it to the corner of the cabin (outside), where the electric box and phone box were both open. The officer discovered that it was not the storm that had caused the electric and phone outage. He then looked at Peg and myself as if he were seeing people who should be dead, and emotionally commented on how "lucky" we were to be alive.

I have often thought of the "what ifs" regarding this. I have no doubt that I would have fought to protect my wife, and probably would have done so to defend my own skin. I don't know if that would be right or wrong. I know that God whispered His direction to me, and that He kept us. Will He not like a Shepherd lead us?

I hope that everyone realizes by now that we all have a deep responsibility to protect and care for those whom God has placed under our authority - wife and family. We also have a responsibility to protect and care for our neighbors, whom we love above ourselves, if the opportunity arises.

How to go about this is another question - it will change from one situation to another. Only God knows whether force will be needed or not, and it would be unwise for any of us to try to nail down a specific doctrine to cover all possibilities.

It should be enough for us to know that God will be there for us, and as along as we keep our hearts and our minds on Him, He will lead us to take the correct course of action, as so many testimonies in this thread have shown. Force or no force doesn't really matter as long as we are attuned to God's Spirit and ready to act as He leads us.

Dear Frank,

My heart goes out to you for having had to go through such a family experience. It is a difficult situation you found yourself in, and a complex question that you pose to us. The leading and wisdom of the Spirit of God is definitely needed in such times.

The situation is unique, for it is not a stranger doing violence to your family, but the head of the family himself. And, as you said, your mother had set the example for you:

All along my mother taught her children to love and respect our father. She said that it was a battle between good and evil and that God loved my dad and wanted him saved.

Dear Frank,

Hi Leo, I will tell the last part of the story shortly...........Frank

Dear Frank,

Praise God! You were Christ's even then, and the Spirit led you to take the right course of action. Thank you for sharing - I was blessed.

Leo