Tongues - flesh or spirit

Can you choose when to give a word of wisdom or knowledge?
Can you choose when to have uncommone faith?
Can you choose when to heal or to do a miracle?
Can you choose when to take the gift of prophecy?
Can you choose when to discern spirits?

Last question:
Are you deciding when you will speak or pray in tongues?

No one can just say, "I'm going to pray in tongues now", as much as they can say that they will take any of the other gifts of the Spirit now; if you do, all you will be truly doing is babbling.

If you, yourself are inducing the so called "tongue", it is not of the Spirit.

The true gift of tongues is like a cup of water filled to the brim (no more room for water), then one comes along and puts a refreshing ice cube into the cup; the water can't help but to over flow and spill out.
The same with the gift of tongues, when praying and becoming filled with His Spirit, you will find yourself overflowing and the gift will spill out of you (if you let it).

Amen, for who does the choosing of the place, time and which gift is to be used for upbuilding of the Body of Christ?

1 Corinthians 12:4-11 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will.

Not as I will.

In Christ: Phillip

It says they spoke as the spirit gave them words, they spoke themselves as i read it, the source was the spirit, but i think it is we who speak the words, i am very skeptic to anyone who says "i can not control" what is happening, the spirit is also the spirit of self control, I dont think ever the spirit "forces" us to do things we can not control or have a saying in.

I'm not able to give a fine-sounding argument as to why one who is baptized in the Holy Ghost may decide to pray in tongues as they will but I can offer my testimony.

There are times when i feel an urgent need to pray and I don't have a foggy idea as to what for or why. At those times, I let the Spirit of God help me by praying in tongues [See I Cor 14: 13-15]. Most times, i end up praying in my understanding, what He wanted! At other times, i'm done praying and i still don't have a foggy idea what that was about! I simply trust that some day here or in eternity, i may find out.

Do let's be careful not to force our understanding of Scripture as binding on others.

IT IS WELL.

Logic

Just some thoughts, I think there are various indications in scripture that God gives the autonomy to the "gift-bearer" :-

1) The gifts of the Spirit are just that "gifts". They are [b]given[/b] to the recipient.

2) Moses used his God-given gifts to strike the Rock to produce water instead of speaking to it as God had instructed. It still "worked" despite Moses having disobeyed God, demonstrating that Moses had a autonomy in the exercise of his gifts even to the point of disobedience.

2) The prophet Elisha asked his servant Gehazi(!) what could be done for the Shunamite woman that had kindly received him and acted on Gehazi's suggestion.

3) Paul instructed people to use the gift of tongues in an orderly fashion within meetings, demonstrating that the gift-bearer has autonomy over the gift. Obviously some people were using their gifts in a fashion and time that wasn't appropriate. The inappropriate use didn't come from God, but was rather misuse of the autonomy that God had previously given. Paul didn't mention anything about the manifestation itself being false at this point.

I think God gives autonomy together with the gift but expects it to be used within certain guidelines. A bit like giving your credit card to a child...

PassingThru

DeepThinker wrote:
I take it that you've never experienced the "baptism of the Holy Spirit with the speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance"?

To be baptized is the same as being overwhelmed with Him; immersed in Him.
I have been overwhelmed with Him; immersed in Him many times, but I have not been blessed to be used with the gift of tongues. However, I have been used with the gift of healings, the gift of word of wisdom, and the gift of faith.

I say that because your only ministering to one audience and that being those who do not believe in the physical manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit through individuals. They may "say" they believe it but wrap it up so tight with regulations that no one dare manifest in their congregations.

As for "babblings" as you call it, the praying in tongues alone can be uttered by the will of the individual.

Do not abused the gift by fabricating one untill He happens to use you with His gift; that is not how it should be done.

Now here is a question, are those of us who have received the Holy Spirit and have spoken in tongues, and we pray in secret a lot of "babbling", have we received the Holy Spirit or another spirit?

My friend truly has the gift of tongues, but he may go a month with out praying in a tongue, because it is up to the Holy Spirit as to when.

One time, when he was new with the gift, he was praying in a tongue, then the Holy Spirit stopped after a while, but my friend wanted to keep going, so he just started to make the same sounds as before.
The Holy Spirit stopped him right there and said; "Now stop that, what do you think your doing?"

My friend thought that he would actually do something real & valid when he made the same sounds with out the Holy Spirit; but with out the Spirit, the sound is really nothing but babble, babble, babble...Undomy bowtiewho stolemyhonda...etc...

What if one stood up and spoke in Zulu and you didn't know Zulu, all your hearing is clicks and gibberish, how do you know if it's genuine or not?

However, if you are unducing the tongue, then it is of the flesh.

hmmhmm wrote:
It says they spoke as the spirit gave them words, they spoke themselves as i read it, the source was the spirit, but i think it is we who speak the words

i am very skeptic to anyone who says "i can not control" what is happening, the spirit is also the spirit of self control.
I dont think ever the spirit "forces" us to do things we can not control or have a saying in.

[Edit: Logic, I see you responded while I was writing the below, and it appears you have made some clarification to what you are trying to say. I'll leave my post up, even though it doesn't really apply anymore.]

Let's assume the gifts of the Spirit are, as you state, out of the receiver's control. Let's read Paul's letter to the Corithain church and see what conclusions we come up with this idea as our basis:

1 Corithians 14:26-40:

How is it then, brethren? When ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

There are three conclusions here:

1.\t[b]The Corinthian church really are operating in the gifts of the Spirit.[/b] If this is the case then what is Paul doing here? What is he trying to correct here when the operation of a gift is out of the receiver’s control? We could try to figure it out, but any conclusion is so absurd, I don't think we even want to go any further here.

2.\t[b]The Corinthian church are not operating in the gifts of the Spirit (i.e. they are “in the flesh”);[/b] Paul, realizing this, encourages them to operate “in the flesh” in a more orderly fashion, in lieu of addressing the problem (“they are in the flesh”).

3.\t[b]The Corinthian church are not operating in the gifts of the Spirit (i.e. they are “in the flesh”);[/b] but Paul believes they really are operating in the gifts of the Spirit. This is because he doesn’t realize that when we are really operating in the gifts of the Spirit, we do so out of our own control. If he only knew this fundamental tenet of Christianity he could plainly see that there is no way they are operating in the gifts of the Spirit, and he could address the real issue here.

I’ll leave it as an exercise to the reader why each of these conclusions is absurd.

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

Again what is Paul trying to say here?

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

I’m having a difficult time understanding what point Paul is attempting to address here. After all, the gift “just happens” it’s out of the receiver’s control, right? How can it be subject to the prophet?

For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Again, why this exhortation? What is this correction about?

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? Came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

What are the commandments of the Lord about, if indeed, the gift is outside of the receiver's control?

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.

I don't know, but I suspect the thesis is wrong. The gifts are indeed under the control of the receiver. The Holy Spirit gives gifts to who he will (1 Corinthians 12:11), but the spirits of the prophet is subject to the prophets (1 Corinthians 14:32).

Did Jonah go directly to Ninavah when given the word of prophecy, or was the spirit of the prophet under his control?

This thread was started with the intention to stir up controversy among brothers. Only the severely ignorant would have expected anything less than doctrinal strife with this topic. What exactly did you hope to gain by this - that those who stand on opposite sides of the "speaking in tongues is the manifestation of baptism by the Spirit" belief would all come together in unity under the wisdom of your insight? This is sin. This is the pride of one gleefully rubbing against the pride of others to generate conflict. Shame on you.

Theophila wrote:

There are times when i feel an urgent need to pray and I don't have a foggy idea as to what for or why. At those times, I let the Spirit of God help me by praying in tongues [See I Cor 14: 13-15].

When one feels an urgent need to pray and you don't have a foggy idea as to what for or why. that would be the Lord just wanting you to talk to Him.
If you don't know what to pray for, then it is not a time for tongues, petition or intercessory and the like; it is the time for you to ask God, "what"?

The thing is, when you come to God in the way you described (just felt the urge to pray), are you full of the spirit as to be overwhelmed at the time when you come to Him?
Only when you are full of the Holy Spirit is when His spirit comes on you to pray in a tongue.
God can't use an empty vesel.

Meditate on Him and His Word which is in you and He will lead you in the conversation (prayer) and mayby fill you and lead you to a tongue.

Most times, i end up praying in my understanding, what He wanted! At other times, i'm done praying and i still don't have a foggy idea what was that was about! I simply trust that some day here or in eternity, i may find out.

I always feel that we shouldn't leave prayer feeling like "what was that was about".

Would you think it was a good & right thing if the King of a country wanted to talk to you. He brought you over to His country (your birth) and got you into his mansion (salvation), His guard (Holy Spirit) lead you into His chamber just so He may talk with you...
and you left thinking, "what that was about"

wouldn't you think that the King called you into His presence for a purpose?

Do let's be careful not to force our understanding of Scripture as binding on others.

Just because you desire it does not mean the Spirit is leading it.
when we attempt a spiritual thing in a fleshly manner you, yourself are inducing it. We are doing it in the flesh until the Spirit is actually inducing it,

What do you think your doing when the Spirit is not actually initiating the action?
Do not confuse the desire for the spiritual gift as doing it in the spirit.

I do see the sincerity in true Christians, but one may be sincerely wrong.

Just because one desires a spiritual gift, does not mean their actions in attaining it is correct.

Anyone can babble all they want in the sincerity of thinking they are being used with the gift of tongues, but until He actually blesses one with the gift, all will done is babbling nonsense and wasting time with no prayer, nothing being accomplished.

With out the Spirit in action, nothing is done anything "in the spirit", because it was the flesh making the noise from their mouth with no intelligible words (not even spiritually intelligible words).

I desire the gift of tongues also, but I will not make a mockery of the gift by making the sounds (of the gift), hoping for the gift to actually make my sounds to be real.
Anyone can make the sounds of the gift of tongues, but unless the Spirit is behind it, they are only babbling; I will not take part in this.

My friend truly has the gift of tongues, but he may go a month with out praying in a tongue, because it is up to the Holy Spirit as to when.

True story:
One time, when he was new with the gift, he was praying in a tongue, then the Holy Spirit stopped, lifted, ended the tongues after a while.
But my friend wanted to keep going, so he just started to make the same sounds as before.
The Holy Spirit stopped him right there and said; "Now stop that, what do you think your doing?"

My friend thought that he would actually do something real & valid when he made the same sounds with out the Holy Spirit; but with out the Spirit, the sound is really nothing but babble, babble, babble...Undomy bowtiewho stolemyhonda...etc...

Leo_Grace wrote:
This thread was started with the intention to stir up controversy among brothers. Only the severely ignorant would have expected anything less than doctrinal strife with this topic.

It is not for controversy, but conversation.

If anyone else has insight, they may post it here, that we may all learn.

What exactly did you hope to gain by this

- that those who stand on opposite sides of the "speaking in tongues is the manifestation of baptism by the Spirit" belief would all come together in unity under the wisdom of your insight?

This is sin.

This is the pride of one gleefully rubbing against the pride of others to generate conflict.

Shame on you.

The gifts of the Spirit are to be used as the Spirit wills. It is not up to the individual when it comes to using a gift for building up the Church.

However tongues is not given to the believer to be used just as a gift for the Church, but also for the believer to use in prayer and intercession. Praying in the Spirit builds up the believer. The gifts of the Spirit build up the Church. "He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself…" (1 Corinthians 14:4).
"But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost" (Jude 1:20).

Anyone that is Baptized in the Holy Spirit and that speaks in tongues can pray in tongues anytime that he wants to, because praying in tongues is praying in the Spirit. I pray in tongues every day, as well as pray with my understanding.

"What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." (1 Corinthians 14:15).

Mike

DeepThinker wrote:

The one who spoke Zulu would interpret the tongue. He would validate the authenticity of the tongue.

Maybe not. On the day of Pentecost there was no interpretation. Every man "heard" their own tongue being spoken of by the Apostles.

First of all, speaking in other tongues does not prove that one has been baptized of the Holy Spirit

That is not scriptural. We have the bible for proof.

The teaching that one receives the Holy Spirit upon receiving Christ into one's heart is recent history and not apostolic. The book of Acts details the account of all those that have received the holy Spirit all spoke in tongues or prophesied.

It's the initial sign that one has been filled with the Holy Spirit.

We get the power to read & understand His Word in a better light, power of boldness in times of fear, powere for deeper worship, power more inspire praise...etc...

The tongues is the least of the benefits of the baptism of the Spirit.

However, people think that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a one time thing.
If you understand baptism correctly, you will know that it is an overwhelming, as being submerged.
The baptism of the Spirit should be an on going thing for every day.

People are praying for revival, and we may as well get used to it now that when people start being filled with the holy Spirit your going to hear them speak in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance.

As regards to your friend saying that the Holy Spirit told him to stop saying that, I heard that same voice too and found out it was the lie of the devil.

With my friends case, the Holy Spirit lifted and stopped the gift of tongues, my friend wanted to go on with out the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Why would the devil want to stop you from babbling on & on when the Holy Spirit stopped praying through you in another tongues?

The devil would want you to continue to babble in nonsense, wasting time with nothing being accomplished spiritually.

Please explain that when the Holy Spirit told him to stop when HE stopped is a "lie from the devil"
Please explain this.

Sshhhhhh, quiet please.

Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

Pr 13:10 Pride only breeds quarrels, but wisdom is found in those who take advice.

Pr 16:5 The LORD detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.

Pr 17:19 He who loves a quarrel loves sin; he who builds a high gate invites destruction.

Pr 26:12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

Leo_Grace wrote:

Sshhhhhh, quiet please.

Gal 6:3 If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
Pr 13:10 Pride only breeds quarrels, but wisdom is found in those who take advice.
Pr 16:5 The LORD detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.
Pr 17:19 He who loves a quarrel loves sin; he who builds a high gate invites destruction.
Pr 26:12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

please don't post on this thread any more unless you have some insight which would not be sinnful to post.

Logic wrote:

Leo_Grace wrote:

Sshhhhhh, quiet please.

Gal 6:3 If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
Pr 13:10 Pride only breeds quarrels, but wisdom is found in those who take advice.
Pr 16:5 The LORD detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.
Pr 17:19 He who loves a quarrel loves sin; he who builds a high gate invites destruction.
Pr 26:12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

You don't read to well, do you?

please don't post on this thread any more unless you have some insight which would not be sinnful to post.

This is my insight about you and your reason for opening a thread that does nothing but promote strife among brothers regarding a topic that cannot be resolved Scripturally.

Oh I can read much better than you think - I can read past your pretensions.

Ps 101:5 Whoever slanders his neighbor in secret, him will I put to silence; [b]whoever has haughty eyes and a proud heart, him will I not endure[/b].

Or the ones hearing the Zulu, validate, as with Peter and the others in Acts 2, and understand in their own language the tongue or language of Zulu.
Only the Holy Spirit can do this and give the Body of Christ the upbuilding.

Peter did not speak in Zulu. But His speaking, by the Holy Spirit was understood by each individual in his own language.

In Christ: Phillip

This tug of war between Logic and myself is good, I am not nasty and he's not nasty, so far this is a good discussion. So there is no reason to bash anyone. But there is a scriptural logical explanation in the bible that will settle these matters. I am of the belief that everything can be solved from the bible. Many of those things require faith, and illumination from the Holy Ghost.

Christinyou wrote:
Or the ones hearing the Zulu, validate, as with Peter and the others in Acts 2, and understand in their own language the tongue or language of Zulu.
Only the Holy Spirit can do this and give the Body of Christ the upbuilding.

Peter did not speak in Zulu. But His speaking, by the Holy Spirit was understood by each individual in his own language.

As with Peter and the others in Acts 2, each person who spoke in a tongue (a language not their own), spoke in a specific language for a specific hearer.
Peter could not have spoke in one language and be heard as two or more languages as you suggest.

Sounds have specific meaning, if a the Spirit gives utterance such as "Ang Panginoon ay si Jesus ay Diyos"
The only way to interpret this is "The Lord Jesus is God"

It is imposible for two people to hear this as two difering languages as you suggest.

When one speaks in a "tongue of angles" that tongue would be only one language, that being of angles.

DeepThinker wrote:

:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him who should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. In this Scripture, we see that men who are saved. All men who are saved have the Holy Spirit, but that is different than when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. These men have not "baptized in the Holy Spirit yet.

Ah, but you didn't go further into the text. It says [b][color=CC0000]Acts 19:2-6 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.[/color][/b]It says that they were not believers in Jesus because Paul had to explain why they needed to believe in the "other" that should come after John. Paul didn't even ask them if they believed in Jesus he went right to the crux of the matter and wanted to know if they received His Spirit. And they said, we don't even know if there is a holy Ghost. So Paul after baptizing them in the name of Jesus, laid his hands on them so that they'd receive the holy Spirit. And when they received the holy Spirit, they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

However, people think that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a one time thing.

The sad thing is many think that way. Paul tells us to be filled all the time.

Some people think thay can just come into His presence and start praying in tounges with out being filled for Him to pore out from.
[b]Example:[/b]
Some one just gets off from work being stressed out from work and starts babbling, thinking that he is actualy praying.
He did not become filled first, how does he think that the Holy Spirit is poring out?

Acts 2:6-12 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

Interpret this as you will, but it sounds as if they all heard all of them speak and they understood in their own language.

"Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?"

Remember this is the Holy Spirit speaking through these men.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
Acts 2:6-12 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

Interpret this as you will, but it sounds as if they all heard all of them speak and they understood in their own language.

"Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?"

Remember this is the Holy Spirit speaking through these men.

[b]Example:[/b]
Peter spoke Parthian.
Andrew, his brother spoke Median.
James son of Zebedee spoke Elamitian
James' brother John spoke Asian
Philip spoke Judean
Bartholomew spoke Cappadocian
Thomas spoke Pontusian
Matthew the tax collector spoke Phrygian
James son of Alphaeus spoke Pamphylia
Thaddaeus spoke Egyptian
Simon the Zealot spoke Libyan...

It can not be that Peter spoke in a language and all heard their own language.

Dear Logic,
You know, you do come off as a tad haughty. Like i said, i'm not inclined toward fine-sounding arguments.

You appear to be quite convinced of your position. Nothing wrong with that. But in trying to persuade others, you do sound condescending. I could be wrong....

I've read some of your responses..a gentler tone would've still conveyed your thoughts.

Anyways, this is my last post in this thread.

Peace to you and yours.

DeepThinker wrote:

Can you choose when to have uncommon faith?

Uncommon faith that he is referring to is the gift of faith. It's a supernatural endowment that bolsters the ability for greater things. For instance the raising of the dead. It requires the gift of Faith plus the Working of Miracles. Common faith will not raise the dead.

[b]Example:[/b]
I was counseling to a Christian friend and I suddenly knew, for a fact that God will talk to her in an audible voice; so I told her this.
I just knew it (uncommon faith).

However, right after I said that to her, I thought again to my self, "How do I know this, I can't tell her that."
Therefore, I said to her, "wait, never mind what I just told you."
However, the gift of faith left me, but it came to her, she started to believe it and praised God.
About 15 to 30 mins. later, she was in the bathroom, and I heard her scream and yelling Hallelujah!!!
She came rushing out of the bathroom saying that God spoke audibly and it was Words exactly what she needed.

The "uncommon faith" (gift of faith) paired with another gift.
[b]Another example:[/b]
My pastor was praying for healing of a freshly broken leg which was already in a cast.
He had the gift of faith to tell him to go home and take the cast of because he was in fact healed.
1/2 hour later, my pastor was worried that he told the man the wrong thing to do; so he called the man with the broken leg to tell him not to take his cast off.
But, it was too late; the man was running around praising God with a healed leg.

My Pastor had the gift of faith (uncommon faith) to boldly say that he was healed.

Logic wrote:
It is not for controversy, but conversation.

If anyone else has insight, they may post it here, that we may all learn.

Logic wrote:
The initial sign that one has been filled with the Holy Spirit is the power to be witnesses for Christ (Act 1:8).

Let's take Peter and Cornelius. Even though Peter spoke in tongues, he still did not believe salvation even the baptism of the Holy Spirit was not for the gentiles. Had those three men came before Peter received the vision, he would have refused them.

Peter knew they had received the baptism when he heard them speak with tongues. it was then he called for them to be baptised with water!

And in Acts 19:6 "[i]Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.[/i]

I'm not trying to argue with you or anyone else, I know that there are those who have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit without receiving divers tongues but there is yet more! (Personally, I would hope to live as to receive all nine of them one day but only time will tell, some days are good and some days not so good! Only God knows.)

Logic wrote:
The tongues is the least of the benefits of the baptism of the Spirit.

Finally, please let me add that the Lord has used that gift through me in extraordinary ways many times, if I had not had it; I do not know what I would have done. And of those times, I can only say, "I wouldn't have missed it for the world!"
:-D :-D

God bless you brother!!

Tongues - flesh or spirit?

Both, neither, one or the other...

Let the Lord lead you to His truth in the matter.

I thought this was fitting for the topic tonight!!

I was listening to Derek Prince "Receive the Holy Spirit" sermon while doing a puzzle tonight....

[i]...All of Jerusalem felt the impact; within a few hours everybody in Jerusalem knew something unusual had taken place. Now when they were born again, it didn't get around but when they were baptised in the Holy Spirit, it got around!

How many of you know from experience it doesn't stay hidden for long, somehow it stirs things up!

One time somebody asked a friend "What's the evidence of the baptism?"

My friend replied [b]"Trouble[/b]."[/i] :-) :-D ;-)

Dear Logic,

Please accept this correction in the Spirit of love with which it is given. You clearly have some understanding of the Filipino or Tagalog language, but your wording and interpretation is faulty.

You said:

Sounds have specific meaning, if a the Spirit gives utterance such as "Ang Panginoon ay si Jesus ay Diyos" The only way to interpret this is "The Lord Jesus is God"

You can use the article "ay" when saying something like "Si Jesus ay mapagmahal" (Jesus is loving) or "Ang Diyos ay mabait" (God is kind) because there are others that are also loving and kind. However, when referring to his Deity, which He holds exclusively, one must use the article "ang": "Siya ang Diyos" (He is God), and not "Siya ay Diyos" (He is a God).

I hope this helps in your mastery of the language.

Deep Thinker wrote;
Here is an example of the Working of Miracles and Word of Wisdom. When Jesus put mud on the Blind Man's eyes, he was told to go and wash in the pool of Siloam. John 9:11. But it was the man's faith by getting up and obeying the LORD that healed him.

This my be a small point, however, I believe that Christ healed the blind man. If it were down to the man's own faith then he could have healed himself?

Christ did not heal the man's eyes, He gave him eyes. What we seen in John's gospel is the second Genesis.

God creates flesh using ADAMAH ( Mud)..... please excuse my crude interpretation of the Hebraic word.

Thanks for al the post on this one! Food for thought?

Leo_Grace wrote:
Dear Logic,

Please accept this correction in the Spirit of love with which it is given. You clearly have some understanding of the Filipino or Tagalog language, but your wording and interpretation is faulty.

BTW, How do you know Tagalog so well?

I am a Filipino. I speak fluent Tagalog and Bisaya, the language of Southern Philippines, in addition to English, of course.

Walang ano man (It is nothing). Glad to be of help. :-)

In Christ,
Leo

Deep Thinker, your theology is an interesting mix. Noticed your link in your signature. Most preterists do not support the gifts for today.

Leo_Grace wrote:
I am a Filipino. I speak fluent Tagalog and Bisaya, the language of Southern Philippines, in addition to English, of course.

Walang ano man (It is nothing). Glad to be of help. :-)

A couple of things to consider:

There is a ministry gift of tongues that should be accompanied by an interpretation of that tongue. As there are diversities of administrations of these gifts, I can only tell you how I have seen it happen. Someone senses the leading of the Holy Spirit that they are to give a message in tongues. They "come into agreement with the Holy Spirit" (Thank you Deep Thinker for putting it this way.) and in the order of things deliver the tongue. Everything stops in anticipation of the interpretation. Someone, perhaps even the same person, is given the interpretation. As i understand it, this gift is exercised only when the Holy Spirit leads. So, I answer "Spirit".

Then, there is praying in another tongue. This is separate from the gift of tongues and the gift of interpretation of tongues. In the assembly is not the only time a Holy Spirit baptized believer can pray in tongues, sing in tongues. Since the Holy Spirit is resident, the ability to pray or sing in the Holy Spirit is also resident. Since the Holy Spirit is always "ON" then it is me who is on and off. He is the resident power, and I am the determining switch. Often I know not how to pray as I ought. What do I do? I choose to pray in the spirit. Why? Because when I pray in the Spirit, my spirit, which is in communion with the Holy Spirit, prays, although my understanding is unfruitful. Interesting thing though is that there are times when it is revealed to me what I am praying about when I pray in tongues. Other times this is not the case. At all times I am praying by faith over the situation. So I would have to answer, "my own decision".

I guess it just depends on purpose and context.

Also this proves that tongues are certainly not foreign languages. Have you ever seen a person speaking Spanish, per se', that did not understand their own utterances?

My Great Grandfather once went to Mexico and, not knowing any Spanish, preached an entire message in fluent Spanish under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I have also known many who spoke in tongues in a meeting and someone from another nation later testified that the person has spoken in their native tongue and verified the accuracy of the interpretation.

Yes, there certainly IS a manifestation of the Holy Spirit that seems to be as a seal, a possession as was witnessed at Pentecost, but it is not the whole picture. I thank God that my secret prayer life is enhanced by the grace to utter prayers in unknown tongues, that I have faith that are known in heaven.

Amen, Amen to the fact that tongues are not the whole picture, as wonderful and I believe important as they are. It is the person of the Holy Spirit that we need to be saturated with.

twayneb wrote:

My Great Grandfather once went to Mexico and, not knowing any Spanish, preached an entire message in fluent Spanish under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I have also known many who spoke in tongues in a meeting and someone from another nation later testified that the person has spoken in their native tongue and verified the accuracy of the interpretation.

My pastor and his wife have a testimony where they were doing street ministry in Seattle, and they were praying for a couple of guys, and the pastor started praying in the spirit, well, one of the guys didn't know English (they were both Mexican I believe), and he heard my pastor praying in Spanish. Ended up being a sign to him that opened him up to the truth of the Gospel.

I thank God that my secret prayer life is enhanced by the grace to utter prayers in unknown tongues, that I have faith that are known in heaven.

Amen Brother Tom. Amen.

DeepThinker wrote:

I was counseling to a Christian friend and I suddenly knew, for a fact that God will talk to her in an audible voice; so I told her this. I just knew it (uncommon faith).

If I may, this experience would not be called uncommon faith. What you had was a "Word of Knowledge".

My pastor was praying for healing of a freshly broken leg which was already in a cast.

When Jesus was healing certain persons it was their faith that healed them, as He had said to many, "Your faith has made you whole".

Thanx for all your replies, y'all gave some good reasons for your belief. Some are good enough that I must re-think my position.

I will come back to this thread after I have further prayed & studied concerning this subject.

BTW FYI, I do not post out of pride &/or for contention sake, but only to cause one to think, re-think & to challenge.

Thanx for all your replies, y'all gave some good reasons for your belief. Some are good enough that I must re-think my position. I will come back to this thread after I have further prayed & studied concerning this subject. BTW FYI, I do not post out of pride &/or for contention sake, but only to cause one to think, re-think & to challenge.

Logic: I appreciate this post brother, and the attitude it conveys. Every one of us has a propensity to be wrong (we are human) and a tendency to think we are right and want everyone else to come to our opinion on any given topic. I appreciate it when brothers and sisters bring what they know and what they believe to the table and discuss it with a teachable spirit. Obviously there are things that we all may never totally agree upon, but I am seeing the unity of doctrine that Paul describes in the first three chapters of 1 Corinthians emerging in the true church. I am seeing more and more that people who love God more than traditions of man are taking an honest look at the Word and allowing their point of view to come into line with the Word. I am not sure we will ever get there in all the minutia, but I am confident that we will find ourselves debating the big picture less and less and encouraging one anther more and more, especially as time grows short.