Perfection & Security

So, would you consider it accurate to say that a "sheep" can become a "goat" and vice-versa perhaps dozens of times in a single day?

Or, to put it another way, someone who comes to Christ be cast out (cf. John 6:37) and re-accepted perhaps dozens of times in a day?

ccrider,

Point taken.

With care in Christ...

ccrider wrote:
Taylor.... this is yet another obvious attempt to start the one millionth rabbit trail that causes more problems than solutions, more angst than edification.

I liken those...as rabblerousers who have not much better to do than endlessly proselytise their theology, and as a natural byproduct.... their own righteousness

If you notice, they stick to mainly one or two topics of theology and rarely go outside their own narrow scope to offer lessons on a variety of theological issues.

The thought of not being able to go with out sin is to go against Scripture. But some who disagree, saying that they must sin because they can't stop need to know that there is freedom from sin.

One thing that seems to stand out in our age as opposed to the past is that propaganda gets so much more credit than it used to.

Propaganda long enough and the undiscerning will believe it, I guess is the hope.

I've just begun to read MacArthur's new book, 'The Jesus You can't Ignore' and he has nailed the problem of the church today, in that it tolerates error for far too long.

Logic and Truthsave, you're wrong, you've been told it umpteen times. You're deceived or you're looking to deceive. Salvation is by grace, something you give lip service to then deny with your propaganda.

Humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God that He may lift you up in due time. God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.

ceedub wrote:

Logic and Truthsave, you're wrong, you've been told it umpteen times. You're deceived or you're looking to deceive. Salvation is by grace, something you give lip service to then deny with your propaganda.

You think you can't stop sinning when God says you can by commanding you to stop.

We acknowlege God's command to stop sinning and know He is not a tyrant to command something which we can not do.

I don't say that [b]not[/b] sinning is your salvation, but it is what your suposed to do; not sin.

With your denyng "no sin in your life", your denying that God can do it.
All we say is that God is [b]SO VERY GREAT[/b] that He can do it & does do it; He can keep you from sinning.

We don't deny that we have sin on our record, and we proclaim that God can cleans you from all sin.
God can cleans you from all unrighteousness. (1John 1:7-9)

You are denying this.
Who maight be deceived here?

Nice try.

They say that when wolves fight they jump in, do their damage and then jump out for a time.

That's how heretics are.

They do their damage until the heat is turned up and they are under scrutiny. Then they retreat to the truth for a time and play the passive agressive.

If what you said in your last post was all you'd ever said re the subject, and to that degree, then there wouldn't have been the same response.

There's always been those that boasted in themselves. That's why Paul wrote many verses rebuking such nonsense.

Those who are truly in Christ walk every day in the light of His truth, and it is God's truth that reveals our sinfulness apart from Christ. Recognizing our own sinfulness is not a denial of God's grace, but an acceptance of the truth as we live in the light. The nearer we draw to God, the more we see of His holiness, and the more we repent of our own sinfulness. Repentance is not a one time event, but a daily walk in humility with God. Unless one is humble enough to admit his weakness, he cannot be empowered by the Spirit towards a repentant and holy life, for he continues to wallow in pride and self-deception.

John was speaking to the believers when he said:

[i]1Jn 1:5-2:2 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. [b]But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.[/b]

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense —Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.[/i]

Do not be deceived. Confession of sin and repentance is part of the daily walk of all believers as long as we remain in the flesh. Anyone who claims to be without sin is deceived and has lost all sensitivity to sin in himself.

ccrider wrote:
Hi logic. My post was open ended.

Besides if you think that 'edification' is purely theological then you're mistaken.

You can try to make me look small but all you do is deny the fact of freedom from sin is real.

You rabbelroused your theology about Psalms, Proverbs, and Song of Songs as NOT being a source for correct doctrine and I quote: 'ESPECIALLY for a Christian', then say you regret it after 'further study'. But is there any remorse for stating such a heresy that could have influenced someone wrongly??? Any humility?? I mean you were so convinced of it when you directed it towards the person who used it to rebut you at the time. Yet time and time again you used the SAME books and verses thereof to validate your theology. My observation is that you came right back with your systematic reasoning with the same arrogance that propagated your prior heresy in the first place.

It's obvious that you don't mind sticking your theological neck out to win an argument. That damages credibility. If that's how you originally felt about Psalms et al then obviously their importance to the Word of God for doctrine needed some exploring by you. However, it wasn't explored until after you made the comment three or so months ago. Therefore, I wouldn't trust your own judgment on what topics need exploring.... as exploring the richness of Psalms, Proverbs, and Song of Songs and it's significant, proper, and truthful contribution as dictated by the Holy Spirit seemed to elude you up until your revelation based on 'further study'

Psalms, Proverbs, and Song of Songs does in fact have a poetic nature with hyperbole, one must be careful not to take the poetic nature with hyperbole to far.

Anyway, a lot of people use their bias to their own theology to interpret Scripture with out seeing the logical conclusion.
Such as God only condemns people because they are sinners, but then people are born sinners.
Therefore, people are condemned because they are born and not from anything of themselves.
But then some might say that they are condemned for sin, but they sin because they are sinners; they must sin because of it, therefore, they are condemned by inevitability.

The truth is that people are condemned because they are guilty by choice, but if it is that they [b]can not[/b] obey God, then they are not guilty, but condemned for a disability.
Then people say that the only choice for sinners is to sin; that is not a choice, but a necessity.

The theology which I always seem to refute is nonsense, which is why I do it.
You may call it rabbelrousing, but I call it trying to get it through a bias which is unrealistic, nonsense and make God a tyrant, all from a defence from an interpretation of Scriptures.

I wonder how people could interpret Scriptures as God being such, I would think they would find how to interpret Scripture to justify God and not criminalize Him.
All I can figure out is that they say to themselves, "God is God He can do anything, even be an unjust tyrant and still be just and rightous, even though that contradicts reality."

"What's this about ones own righteousness?"

Again, how do you know that my post was directed towards you?

"Some mainly stick to topics which need exploring."

No, these are the topics YOU want to endlessly proselytize and shove forward.

Who are you to determine what needs and what doesn't need explored??

But determining what needs to be explored, who are you to do the same?
If we aren't then why even start new threads?

And those who do start new threads, who are they to determine what needs to be explored?

All I am doing is trying to show the nonsense of some theologies such as I explained above.

I believe you will continue your attempts to propagate and rabbelrouse on one or two theologies because you can't seem to help it.

Don't think that they hate God anyway with out those wretched theologies, because my Christian friend almost left the faith when he was newly converted because he thought God was really the way these theologies claim God to be when he started to hear other people talk about God.
I've heard many other new Christians rethink their faith because of this.

Christians defend their theologies by quoting [b]Rom 9:20[/b] [color=990000]Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?[/color]
They think that I am arguing with God, but I am actually coming against their Theology & not God.

Leo_Grace wrote:
Those who are truly in Christ walk every day in the light of His truth, and it is God's truth that reveals our sinfulness apart from Christ.

Recognizing our own sinfulness is not a denial of God's grace, but an acceptance of the truth as we live in the light.

Do not be deceived. Confession of sin and repentance is part of the daily walk of all believers as long as we remain in the flesh.

Since sin is a choice, we may choose to not sin.
We can do this all day.
therefore, we may not need to confess sin and repentant because we have chose to net sin by loving God and keeping His commandments and obeying James 4:8 to cleanse our hands and purify our hearts and Humble ourselves in the sight of the Lord, that He shall lift us up(James 4:10).
Also obeying 2Corinth 7:1 let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

I have no desire for argument, but thought it best to post the following Scripture for those willing to listen:

[u][b]God said:[/b][/u]

Isa 66:2 Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?” declares the LORD. “[b]This is the one I esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit[/b], and trembles at my word.
[i]Note: Contrite - filled with a sense of guilt and the desire for atonement; penitent: a contrite sinner.[/i]

[u][b]Teaching his disciples, Jesus said:[/b][/u]

Mt 23:12 [color=CC3300]"For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and [b]whoever humbles himself will be exalted.[/b]"[/color]

Lk 18:11-14 [color=CC3300]"The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’"

“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, [b]‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’"

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted[/b].”[/color]

[u][b]The Apostle James told the believers:[/b][/u]

Jas 5:15-16 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. [b]If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other[/b] so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

[u][b]The Apostle John told the believers:[/b][/u]

1Jn 1:5-10 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

[b]If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.[/b] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

[b]If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.[/b]

Humility and a heightened sensitivity to sin are essential elements towards our sanctification by the Holy Spirit. Denial of the truth that man is sinful is a denial of Christ, the Word of Life (1 Jn 1:10).

I would add to what Leo said one question for consideration. To whom was the epistle of 1 John written? To unregenerate people in the world, or to born again believers? When you have determined the answer to that question, then you can read 1 John 1:9 in its proper context.

Dear truefaithsav,

You reasoning and rationalizing of your beliefs, no matter how logical they may appear to you, cannot match the authority of the inerrant word of God in Scripture. If you would follow twayneb's suggestion, you will find that the teachings of the apostle John quoted again below, were addressed to born again believers who, as you say, are "already under the mercy of God through Jesus Christ".

John teaches that, as born again believers of God led by the Holy Spirit, we must be sensitive to the sinfulness of our flesh and not be boastful of our justification through Christ - it is not of ourselves "so that no one may boast". It is the Spirit himself that instructs us to be mindful of our sins, and to confess them and repent of them. God our Creator knows what lies in the heart of man, thus these instructions.

1Jn 1:5-10 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

[i][b]If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.[/b][/i]

Heed Scripture, my friend.

Dear truefaithsav,

Below is a parable that the Lord Jesus Christ taught to his disciples (believers) who seemed confident in their own righteousness like you are:

[i]Lk 18:9-14 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: [color=CC3300]“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”[/color][/i]

Jesus, whom we both claim (I think) to be our Lord, says we should be humble and repentant of sin in regards to ourselves, because in God's eyes, humility is worthy of exaltation. I believe this teaching and I obey this teaching as one redeemed by Jesus - what about you? You appear to be selective in your obedience.

On the day of my judgment, I will stand before God humble and repentant of my sinfulness, for I know that my heart is deceitful above all things. I know that many times, in an instant of weakness, my heart can boil over in anger, or entertain evil thoughts, or sinful doubts, and for these I will be ever vigilant and always repentant. I can repent of them because I see them in my life with eyes wide open. At the same time, I am obedient to my Lord's commands and avoid sin whenever I can, and most especially I strive to live my life with an overwhelming love for God and for my fellow men. For He has told me that in following the greatest commandment, I am able to fulfill ALL the law and all the prophets.

What about you? Can you stand before God on judgment day and say that you obeyed what Jesus taught his believers should do in Lk 18:9-14? Or will you tell God that you thought other verses were more correct? Will you stand before Him and claim to be without sin because you obeyed the commands of God that you liked in the Bible?

Truefaithsav, when is the last time you sinned?

How do we reconcile these scriptures with 1 John 1

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

"Born of God", This is Godly Father spiritual Birth in spirit. The Spirit of Christ in the believer, the old father the devil is out and no longer has jurisdiction over the believer.

Romans 8:9-14 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Now if any man sin, very important, "Any Man Sin"
We have an advocate with the Father.

1 John 2:1-6 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if (((((any man sin,))))) we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Then if, "any man sin", what are we to do?

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Is this not keeping His commandments?

The Father can not be faithful to those that don't confess their sins, and they are not following His commandment, so we can be cleansed from all unrighteousness.

We are perfect in Christ and we are quickened in the flesh to contain the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit. This is how we are perfect before the Father. The Christ in us is our perfection and This is how every man is presented to the Father Perfect, "Christ in you the hope of Glory".

This is Pauls ministry, this is where we should be dwelling, In Christ, as Paul speaks 223 times, In Christ, In Christ, etc. "Perfect in Christ".

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

"Follow me as I follow Christ", Pauls declaration in all his epistles. This is why Paul was chosen on the road. That we might know the Christ that is in us as he speaks in all his epistles again and again, IN CHRIST, and Christ in you the Hope of Glory. There is none other glory.

In Christ: Phillip

I wonder if tfs is actually Jesse? Stranger things have happened :-D

P.S. I'm not getting involved in this, there's already PAGES of refutation to both of these gents.

Dear Truefaithsav,

[i]Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?[/i]

Those verses you quoted are true: that anyone who continues to sin is not of God; and anyone who is of God, being led by the Spirit, will no longer live a life of sin. No one is denying this.

However, let me ask you this - are you able to live in the flesh and be totally filled with the Spirit 24/7? If we are honest with ourselves we know that it takes effort to suppress ourselves and our selfish attitudes in order for the Spirit to take the lead in our lives. That is why we are commanded to take up our cross DAILY. As long as we are alive in the flesh, we must put to death our sinful nature every day in order to surrender ourselves to the Holy Spirit. It is not a one-time thing, but a way of life - a life of repentance and surrender to God each and every day as long as we live on this earth.

If we are born again, and we love God above all, we will choose not to sin whenever the choice presents itself. We choose not to sin so as not to grieve our God whom we love.

However, if we are sensitive to the inclinations of our own hearts, we also know that Jer 17:9 is true - that our hearts are deceitful above all things. We know that in an instant, without conscious choice or warning, our hearts can be boastful, or rise up in anger, or fill with envy, or harbor evil desires, etc. This is what Scripture warns us of in both Jer 17:9 and in 1 Jn 1:5-10.

It is only when we are vigilant and conscious of the sinfulness of our deceitful hearts that we are able to avoid sin all the more, through the work of the Spirit and for the glory of God.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins , he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins , and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness .

"If, (ean):

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1437. ean
Search for G1437 in KJVSL
ean ean eh-an'
from 1487 and 302; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty:--before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-)soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, (who-)so(-ever). See 3361.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3361. me
Search for G3361 in KJVSL
mh me may
a primary particle of qualified negation (whereas 3756 expresses an absolute denial); (adverb) not, (conjunction) lest; also (as an interrogative implying a negative answer (whereas 3756 expects an affirmative one)) whether:--any but (that), X forbear, + God forbid, + lack, lest, neither, never, no (X wise in), none, nor, (can-)not, nothing, that not, un(-taken), without. Often used in compounds in substantially the same relations.

The "If" is not on our part, but should be if so, not If I or we, "a conditional particle; in case that, provided,".

Who convicts us of Sin, by which we will confess.

That is why the Holy Spirit is here.

This is the whole of John 14, if you finish 15, 16, and 17. The Holy Spirit becomes very clear what is His intended purpose for the believer; to convict of sin and to comfort and seal the believer in Christ Jesus our Lord and reveal the Christ that is in us.

Jesus uses the same word, (IF), aea: And ((((((if )))))))) I go and prepare a place for you , I will come again , and receive you unto myself ; Not depending on the "If", but on what He will do for and in the believer, the same "If", when we confess, by the Holy Spirit conviction and leading us to full dependence on the Cross and the Blood of Christ to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This is the most beautiful command and promise the believer can have to complete the the saying:

Romans 8:1-16 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (((((For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:)))))

John 14:1-31 Let not your heart be troubled : ye believe in God , believe also in me . In my Father's house are many mansions : if it were not so, I would have told you . I go to prepare a place for you . And ((((((if )))))))) I go and prepare a place for you , I will come again , and receive you unto myself ; that where I am , there ye may be also . And whither I go ye know , and the way ye know . Thomas saith unto him , Lord , we know not whither thou goest ; and how can we know the way ? Jesus saith unto him , I am the way , the truth , and the life : no man cometh unto the Father , but by me . If ye had known me , ye should have known my Father also : and from henceforth ye know him , and have seen him . Philip saith unto him , Lord , shew us the Father , and it sufficeth us . Jesus saith unto him , Have I been so long time with you , and yet hast thou not known me , Philip ? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father ; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father ? Believest thou not that I am in the Father , and the Father in me ? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself : but the Father that dwelleth in me , he doeth the works . Believe me that I am in the Father , and the Father in me : or else believe me for the very works ' sake . Verily , verily , I say unto you , He that believeth on me , the works that I do shall he do also ; and greater works than these shall he do ; because I go unto my Father . And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name , that will I do , that the Father may be glorified in the Son . If ye shall ask any thing in my name , I will do it. If ye love me , keep my commandments . And I will pray the Father , and he shall give you another Comforter , that he may abide with you for ever ; Even the Spirit of truth ; whom the world cannot receive , because it seeth him not , neither knoweth him : but ye know him ; for he dwelleth with you , and shall be in you . I will not leave you comfortless : I will come to you . Yet a little while , and the world seeth me no more ; but ye see me : because I live , ye shall live also . At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father , and ye in me , and I in you . He that hath my commandments , and keepeth them , he it is that loveth me : and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father , and I will love him , and will manifest myself to him . Judas saith unto him , not Iscariot , Lord , how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us , and not unto the world ? Jesus answered and said unto him , If a man love me , he will keep my words : and my Father will love him , and we will come unto him , and make our abode with him . He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings : and the word which ye hear is not mine , but the Father's which sent me . These things have I spoken unto you , being yet present with you . But the Comforter , which is the Holy Ghost , whom the Father will send in my name , he shall teach you all things , and bring all things to your remembrance , whatsoever I have said unto you . Peace I leave with you , my peace I give unto you : not as the world giveth , give I unto you . Let not your heart be troubled , neither let it be afraid . Ye have heard how I said unto you , I go away , and come again unto you . If ye loved me , ye would rejoice , because I said , I go unto the Father : for my Father is greater than I . And now I have told you before it come to pass , that , when it is come to pass , ye might believe . Hereafter I will not talk much with you : for the prince of this world cometh , and hath nothing in me . But that the world may know that I love the Father ; and as the Father gave me commandment , even so I do . Arise , let us go hence .

The If has already been accomplished, and we will be, by His faithfulness, be cleansed from all unrighteousness by the Christ that is in us and the Blood He shed to take away all our sin, In Spirit we are perfect by His Spirit that lives in us, we are being made perfect by the Holy Spirit teaching to be conformed to the image of Christ, by the Mind of Christ that is in us. We will be made perfect by the new perfect body we receive at resurrection from the grave and those that are left alive in Christ, together to go to our prepared place of our home in the Father's House.

"If", in Christ, which has already been accomplished for those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Amen. The World cannot believe, Only those the Father has given to the Son and are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Phillip

Leo_Grace wrote:

It is only when we are vigilant and conscious of the sinfulness of our deceitful hearts that we are able to avoid sin all the more, through the work of the Spirit and for the glory of God.

What you are describing is trying to do it in your own strength. We are decieved if we can think to escape or avoid sin if sin is still in our heart.

What we need is the work of the spirit in you so that the decietful heart is total removed.

There are two works of the spirit

1.Born Again--Justification
2.Sanctification--Holiness

Ezk 36:26 [b]A new heart[/b] also will I give you, and [b]a new spirit[/b] will I put within you:

Two works of the spirits a new heart and a new spirit. This work is not done at conversion at conversion you get a new spirit, later in your walk with God there is a further work.

Think about John 20:22 and Acts 2:2 two works of the spirit. Look at how Peter describes the second work in Acts 15:8-9 how it purifies the heart.

Without the purification of the heart you will always struggle with sin and fall.

Why doesn't any one want to believe they can always choose not to sin?

Why doesn't any one want to believe they can be sin free as the Bible tells us?

I am Logic, but not in self, but in Christ by the Christ that is in me, for His Seed in me cannot sin.

In Christ: Phillip

murrcolr wrote:

Leo_Grace wrote:

It is only when we are vigilant and conscious of the sinfulness of our deceitful hearts that we are able to avoid sin all the more, through the work of the Spirit and for the glory of God.

What you are describing is trying to do it in your own strength. We are decieved if we can think to escape or avoid sin if sin is still in our heart.

What we need is the work of the spirit in you so that the decietful heart is total removed.

There are two works of the spirit

1.Born Again--Justification
2.Sanctification--Holiness

Ezk 36:26 [b]A new heart[/b] also will I give you, and [b]a new spirit[/b] will I put within you:

Two works of the spirits a new heart and a new spirit. This work is not done at conversion at conversion you get a new spirit, later in your walk with God there is a further work.

Think about John 20:22 and Acts 2:2 two works of the spirit. Look at how Peter describes the second work in Acts 15:8-9 how it purifies the heart.

Without the purification of the heart you will always struggle with sin and fall.

That new heart and new Spirit you speak of from Eze 36:26 - is it a heart/spirit of humility or one of pride? Is it a heart/Spirit of honesty about one's sinfulness or a heart that denies this truth which is given by Scripture?

Where are we perfect?

Where are we becoming perfect?

Where will we be totally perfect?

Spirit
Soul
Body

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

In Christ: Phillip

Leo said:

In Scripture, God teaches the believers to be humble and ever mindful of their sinful nature - this is the path to true holiness. I am amazed at the pride of some who ignore God's teaching and boast of a holiness and a power that is God's gift - so that no one should boast.

Not so sure I agree with all of this point. We are taught to be mindful of our new, born again nature, not our old sinful nature which, when we are born again, no longer exists.

2 Corinthians 5:17, Romans 6:6-11, Hebrews 10, Eph. 4:24.

I can boast of possessing, of being the righteousness of God. I cannot boast of this in myself, or say that it is because of my own ability to be good or do right. I can only boast of possessing something that God has given me through no merit of my own. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any MAN should boast.

Rom 15:17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.

The word glory here means to boast. Paul boasted in what Christ had done in him.

There is nothing inherently humble in saying, "I am just an old sinner." It really denies the spiritual rebirth and imputed righteousness that comes through Christ.

No one ever became holy by focusing on sin. We become holy as we focus on Christ and allow Him to live through us by the power of the Holy Spirit.

It is much like trying to overcome temptation. We can try to focus on our former sin in an area and hope to "shame" ourselves into not doing it again. This ultimately leads to future failure. On the other hand, we can focus on our love relationship with the Father through Jesus Christ, make Him the absolute center of our lives, run toward Him, come into agreement with Him in everything He says to us, and walk in victory.

I am right now perfected forever. Where? In my spirit man. Sanctification and Holiness comes as we learn to live out of our born again spirit, and not out of our flesh. It comes as we renew our mind. Every act of obedience to the Word of God and to the Holy Spirit is an act of holiness and sanctification.

The key to the whole thing is realizing that we cannot do it in ourselves.

Think again about overcoming temptation. The word tells us to submit ourselves to God, resist the devil, and he will flee from us. So many try to resist by sheer willpower. They focus on the sin and say, "This time I won't..., This time I won't...-Oh No, I did it again." They missed the first step. Submit yourself to God. I love what Watchman Nee had to say about this. Submission to God is recognition that I have absolutely no power over sin in my own self, but He who is in me has all power. I must come to the end of self, and allow Him to empower me. Then I can speak the word boldly, rebuke the Devil, and he will flee. Why? Because he is no longer up against me, but the Holy Spirit of God.

Holiness is never defined by what we do or do not do. I am not holy because I keep commandments, or refrain from every sin on a daily basis. The Pharisees tried this and failed miserably because the law was never meant to be kept for righteousness in the first place. Its purpose was to condemn all as sinners. Holiness and sanctification is defined by a heart that comes into agreement with God. This agreement will obviously affect a great change in our behavior, but the actions are a product of holiness, not holiness itself. In fact, I like the statement that says, "If we truly understand our righteous standing with God through Christ and walk in a love relationship with Him, we will live holier on accident than we ever did on purpose before."

People will not go to hell because of "sins". They will go to hell because of THE sin of unbelief. Because they have rejected the One who paid the price of redemption for them. A person who is truly born again, who truly enters into relationship with God through Christ, and who makes a decision that He will be Lord and that they will come into agreement with God in every area of their lives will obviously find themselves missing the mark less and less as they grow in maturity in the Lord. They will not reach some place of perfection in their minds or in their flesh, only in their spirits which have been perfected. A born again spirit cannot become MORE born again, but minds can be renewed, and temptations of the flesh overcome.

Now I am not saying it is impossible to lose relationship with God (salvation). It is entirely possible. A close examination of scripture will show that we can lose it only by rejecting it. Every act of sin that we choose to participate in serves to harden our heart toward God and bring us closer and closer to the point of rejecting our salvation. Saying it is impossible to lose salvation is a ditch we need to stay out of.

The other ditch, and perhaps the more dangerous of the two, is to say that every action of sin causes us to lose our salvation. This ditch often serves to take us out of the realm of God's grace and put us back under law. It opens the door to condemnation of the enemy. Not sinning is important. The word says that when we defile our conscience it shipwrecks our faith. How can I relate to God in faith when I have opened the door to the condemnation of the enemy through sin. But, getting back over into believing that every action of sin causes me to lose my salvation will put me under the same bondage of condemnation. Really, the book of Galatians was written directly to this idea.

Remember that Paul makes the point that in the same way we received Christ (by grace through faith)we are to walk in Him (by grace through faith). He says that the ones who believed they could start out by grace and then get back over into works were bewitched and were believing a perversion of the gospel.

We have been granted such liberty in Christ. The obvious liberty is that freedom from bondage to sin. The second liberty is spoken of in Gal. 5:1 and it the freedom we have from the drudgery of trying to keep the law for righteousness.

I guess it all comes down to the fact that we need to agree with what Christ has done in our lives, submit ourselves to Him in all things, learn to live out of the spirit man which has been renewed, walk in the spirit, and continue in the grace of God.

God bless you all.

Travis

Dear Travis,

As a born again Christian, how then would you react to this lesson taught by Jesus to his disciples:

[i]Lk 18:9-14 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: [color=CC3300]“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ “But the tax collector stood at a distance. [b]He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.[/b]”[/color][/i]

Or to this teaching by the Apostle John to all believers:

[i]1Jn 1:5-10 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

[b]If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.[/b][/i]

Would you tell the Lord Jesus and John that this no longer applies to you since you have already been saved? Please note that these teachings were for the disciples and the believers, not the unsaved.

ccrider wrote:
Until you are free from sin, I fail to see, especially on a biblical level, how you can preach about the speck in our eyes until you have removed yours. You act like wrong theology is our speck but you have yet to prove us wrong by example. Oh the shame of it.

Quite simply, until you are sin free I really don't want to hear it. As long as you are still sinning, whether once a month, a year, or a decade then you fail to practice what you say is true. People don't respect others who can't lead by example... and you recently have confessed that you still sin.. otherwise you would have proclaimed your sin freedom.

I say that man can choose not to sin indefinatly.

My whole point is that to say one can't stop sinning is rediculous.

The fact that I amy sin "whether once a month, a year, or a decade" proves that I can choose not to sin.
The fact that I do sin does not prove that I [b]can't stop[/b] sinning, but only proves that I choose to sin.

I suggest you hold yourself to the same theological standard that you are holding us. "Don't sin"... "stop it".

Very easy to preach huh?? But you can't do it now can you?? You boast of once a month sin yet you're still a sinner in every sense of the biblical word. And this by your own admission.

You however, can't stop sinning, then you must love it, you must be practising it, you must be employed in it, you must be dinning habitually; because you always sin every day.
Or you think you do.

I wouold go so far as to say you do not sin every day, you just have an over scrupiulous conscience and a very bad definition of sin; this is why you say that you can't stop sinning or say that you sin everyday in thought, intent or deed.

You come on here and preach sin freedom but you are not sin free.

When I do sin, I didn't have to, but I chose to.

IF one has to sin, then he can not be guilty of it.
No one is guilty of a necessity.

Let me know when you have arrived at the sin free state so I can apologize and reconsider. Until then we won't apologize for our interpretation of Scripture.

Sinners can only sin because they have no faith.
They don't have to sin by having faith (being faithful to Jesus).

Untill a sinner puts his faith in/on/ Christ & what He has said & done, he has no other choice bu to sin; that sin being anything not of faith or out of agape.

But I suspect that 'the Morells' will keep beating that dead horse and still be considered a sinner.

What are the "Morrell's"?

hi all, the reason why Jesus died for our sin is because He knew how sinful man is and how powerless he is. the rich young ruler asked 'what must i do to inherit eternal life' great question... the answer was keep the commandments... he said like you that he has from his youth... Jesus started with the first ... the ruler failed the test;like us you cannot stand in front of the HOLY HOLY HOLY GOD and look at yourself as nothing but a sinner as Isaiah did.who do you think you are... are you that filled with pride? i hate sin and am thankful that Jesus took care of all of it at the cross.jimp

Leo: Hey Brother! I guess I would answer it this way. Look at the end result of both of these cases. The man who was a sinner and confessed it went away justified. If we confess our sin, He forgives and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. In both cases, righteousness is declared after acknowledging and confessing sin and receiving forgiveness. The end result of salvation is not, cannot be, an increased consciousness of sin in my life. The end result of salvation is a revelation that I have now been declared righteous (if we read scripture correctly possessing the very righteousness of God in Christ)in the sight of God through the atoning work of Christ. Being declared righteous before God is the only way that I can walk in relationship with God. If I am a sinner, I cannot. It is the very thing that Christ died for, to restore right relationship through the remission of sins.

The argument that I have seen raging over and over here is whether a Christian can live without committing actions of sin, or is that an impossibility. To me it seems a lot like a pharisee and a saducee arguing over whether it is indeed possible for a person to keep the law perfectly. The argument itself misses the whole point.

In the sermon on the mount, Jesus tells the common people that unless their righteousness exceeds that of the pharisees they will in no way enter the kingdom of Heaven. Then He proceeds to give the law on an issue and the true heart of God. The law says don't kill. "Cool, I can keep that one." But the heart of God is that no hatred of any kind exist in the heart. "Oh no! How can I get rid of that?" The law says don't commit adultry. "Cool, I can keep that one." But, God's heart is that we don't lust at all. "Oh my! That is impossible." Jesus then goes on to say, that if we want to make it on our own efforts, we have to be perfect like God. Totally impossible!

I have found that a large portion of the Christian world looks at the new covenant much like a revised and improved version of the old. The rules are now stricter, but we now have Jesus to help us keep them. The whole point of Romans, Hebrews, Galatians, and what Christ did was to set us free from that bondage. All attempting to keep rules does is show our inability to keep rules. Paul dealt with this in Romans 7. It is all about his struggle trying to please God by keeping the OT law. He says it is a wretched way to live if you can call it life. It is death.

Paul goes on to say that there is only one way he can be delivered from this body of death and that is through Jesus Christ.

We either have to be perfect on our own (impossible) or we need a savior (Jesus). Our savior restores us to right relationship with God, righteousness, through rebirth or regeneration. It is a total transformation of the spirit. It is a passing form darkness into light. We then live from a platform of righteousness and it transforms the rest of our life.

Recall how Paul said in Romans 6:1, "what shall we say then, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound. God forbid!" Why did he say that? If you look at Rom. 1-5 you will see Paul making the point that righteousness is imputed, not gained by works. Righteousness is a gift. God'
s grace does the work entirely with no "efforts" on our part. (Hold that one loosely you all. I don't want to go down the road of discussing what part is ours or God's. I am simply saying we cannot work to attain this thing) So the obvious question in people's minds is, "so I can just continue in sin and my sins are taken care of???" Paul heads off this question by explaining that a born again man is dead to sin. The body of sin that I used to walk in is to be viewed by me as having the impact on my life as if I were a corpse. I am dead to sin. I need to learn to walk in that revelation.

I am no longer a sinner, I have been declared righteous by God because of Christ and am now numbered among the saints. It is who I now am through Christ.

If I do commit an act of sin, it has a very negative effect on me, but does not cause my spirit to become "un-born again". Because I am born again, I have the Holy Spirit constantly speaking to me. When I fall short, He convicts me of it. It is up to me then to agree with Him and say, "Yes Lord, that was wrong."

If we learn to live and walk as righteous men filled with the Holy Spirit, this whole discussion becomes a moot point. Is it possible to go through a day, a month, a year without committing an action of sin? What does it matter? I have been born again. The body of sin and death that dwelt in me has been dealt with. I am the righteousness of God. I am dead to self and alive unto God. I am going to come into agreement with Him and with His word on every occasion. I am going to learn to walk being led of the Holy Spirit. Sin is no longer an issue with me. As I walk this way, a blessed work of sanctification and holiness is coming forth in me. I don't look like, act like, talk like the world, and I am not even totally aware of how it came to be that way. All I know is that I am being changed from glory to glory into His image day by day and I love it!

ccrider wrote:

Let's take a survey.

HOW MANY HERE LOVES SIN, PRACTICES IT, EMPLOYS THEMSELVES TO IT, AND HABITUALLY (very subjective) DOES IT??

Just quote this above and say "Yes I qualify". If this is the case then you can repent of this and be clean in Christ.

Since you can't repent (stop), then you can't be "clean in Christ"
Even though, if you can't stop, you arent realy guilty in the first place, because it is beyond your control.

If not then logic says you are not a 'sinner' in the biblical sense and thereby clean and free.

"My whole point is that to say one can't stop sinning is rediculous." logic

After the multiple upon multiple upon multiple times you've made your 'whole point'.... we get it.

If you can't stop sinning, then you are not disobeying God when you sin, but only doing that which you must.
Furthermore, if youre doing that which you must, then you can't repent of it.

Hello Travis,

If we learn to live and walk as righteous men filled with the Holy Spirit, this whole discussion becomes a moot point. Is it possible to go through a day, a month, a year without committing an action of sin? What does it matter? I have been born again. The body of sin and death that dwelt in me has been dealt with. I am the righteousness of God. I am dead to self and alive unto God. I am going to come into agreement with Him and with His word on every occasion. I am going to learn to walk being led of the Holy Spirit. Sin is no longer an issue with me. As I walk this way, a blessed work of sanctification and holiness is coming forth in me. I don't look like, act like, talk like the world, and I am not even totally aware of how it came to be that way. All I know is that I am being changed from glory to glory into His image day by day and I love it!

I am not preaching that Christians must be fully absorbed by their sinfulness - we should rejoice in our salvation that frees us from the bondage of sin. But we should not be so proud as to ignore the truth in Scripture that we must remain vigilant against sin in our lives.

You said:

If I do commit an act of sin, it has a very negative effect on me, but does not cause my spirit to become "un-born again". Because I am born again, I have the Holy Spirit constantly speaking to me. When I fall short, He convicts me of it. It is up to me then to agree with Him and say, "Yes Lord, that was wrong.

How would you deal with a "believer" who refuses to accept this and says: "No- I refuse to believe that I am capable of sinning any longer because I have been born again and I have chosen not to sin, therefore I no longer sin"?

It basically comes down to this...

What is sin?

Logic apparently has a different definition than Leo.

Travis,

That was very edifying and encouraging! We are dead indeed to sin, and alive in Christ. I hold fast to the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him Crucified; I believe it, holding on to it, even if I don't always see it. God [i]is[/i] changing me from glory to glory to glory...Amen! May I be humble always, knowing that it is His Grace working in me that causes me to become what He wants me to become: like His Son, Jesus Christ.

God bless you!

Ben

Travis,

Great posting!!!

Leo,

The 1st chapter in 1john tells us as a Christian the importance of walking in the light continually so that we can be cleansed from all sin. It is talking about our growth in sanctification. Everyone who has been saved must be cleansed from our former lifestyle of sinning. We are to put off the old man and we are to be renewed in our minds in spiritual holiness.

Now let’s look at

1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Notice in verse 5 where he says “he was manifested to take away our sins” and “in Him is no sin” showing us that we need him to take away our sins. He did not say that we have no sin because back in chapter one he clearly told us if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. We must abide in him in order not to continue to commit sins. The “eth” word means continually. We who have been truly born of God and abiding in Him cannot willfully practice sin. No true Christian who loves God and walking in fellowship will continue to practice sin but because sin as part of our nature before we were saved and because we are still human and have not receive our glorified bodies, we will still fall short of the glory of God. We will confess it and be cleansed by the blood of Jesus as we continue to walk in the light. We will not be willfully committing sins nor continuing to practice sin because the seed (the nature of Christ) cannot sin. The more His nature controls our lifestyle the less we will fall short of his glory. Perfection is the goal Christ has for all of us, but complete perfection will be obtainable only in that glorified body.

The problem with Logic is that he denies the sin nature and therefore does not believe he has one. So he thinks he doesn’t sin because sin is only a choice. Then he goes on to say that he only sins every so often and so by his own doctrinal belief of being able not to sin and then sinning every once in a while, he is saying that he is not born of God. The scripture says that the born of God do not commit sin and Logic says that he does commit sin every once in a while. A man like Logic who claims that he has the power not to sin, because he doesn’t have, neither was born with a sin nature, but then decides he will sin once a month makes me wonder why he would want to sin at all. Myself I know I inherited a sin nature from Adam but thank God for the new nature I received from Christ and I don’t want to commit a sin ever, not once a month, neither one time in all of eternity. Since I have been born of God I have received a nature that does not commit sin. As long as I abide in Christ I will never desire to commit sin but if I fail to abide continually in Christ and allow that other nature to rise up instead of remaining crucified I could easily sin and will need to confess to God for cleansing through the blood of Christ and thank God for his mercy. Our focus should not be on self but Christ. We should not be thinking after the flesh but the after the Spirit where there is life and peace, then the Holy Spirit will convict us of any sin to confess and be cleansed from. We are to be dead to sin and self but alive to God. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from our sins but the cross crucifies our sinful nature. We must believe that we were crucified with Christ in order for the old man (our sinful nature) and his deeds to be destroyed.

Blessings to all!

IWantAnguish wrote:
It basically comes down to this...

What is sin?

Logic apparently has a different definition than Leo.

This is because if you can't stop sinning, it is out of your control, and if it is out of your control, you are not accountable to it.

Sin is a choice, which is able to be denied.

I'm not being proude, all I'm doing is stating the logic and common sense of it all.

Sin must be repentable, if you can't stop what ever you call sin, it must not be sin.

Unless you keep finding new sins in your life; they keep popping up and the Lord keeps revealing them to you. But then how do they get there but by your own choice to let them into your life?

Perhaps we still have two natures in us after conversion. The Spirit and my spirit war with my sinful flesh. It is still all me but two different parts of me. I'm sure that some of you will find this in error or part of some prior heresy but the Scriptures seem to support the notion. My spirit cannot sin ( the divine nature born by the Spirit within me ) whereas my flesh ( the sinful nature ) which has not been yet fully defeated ( ie., the presence of sin) can and in fact does. I know this sounds psyhzofrenic.

rbanks wrote:
Travis,

Great posting!!!

Leo,

The 1st chapter in 1john tells us as a Christian the importance of walking in the light continually so that we can be cleansed from all sin. It is talking about our growth in sanctification. Everyone who has been saved must be cleansed from our former lifestyle of sinning. We are to put off the old man and we are to be renewed in our minds in spiritual holiness.

Now let’s look at

1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Notice in verse 5 where he says “he was manifested to take away our sins” and “in Him is no sin” showing us that we need him to take away our sins. He did not say that we have no sin because back in chapter one he clearly told us if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. We must abide in him in order not to continue to commit sins. The “eth” word means continually. We who have been truly born of God and abiding in Him cannot willfully practice sin. No true Christian who loves God and walking in fellowship will continue to practice sin but because sin as part of our nature before we were saved and because we are still human and have not receive our glorified bodies, we will still fall short of the glory of God. We will confess it and be cleansed by the blood of Jesus as we continue to walk in the light. We will not be willfully committing sins nor continuing to practice sin because the seed (the nature of Christ) cannot sin. The more His nature controls our lifestyle the less we will fall short of his glory. Perfection is the goal Christ has for all of us, but complete perfection will be obtainable only in that glorified body.

The problem with Logic is that he denies the sin nature and therefore does not believe he has one. So he thinks he doesn’t sin because sin is only a choice. Then he goes on to say that he only sins every so often and so by his own doctrinal belief of being able not to sin and then sinning every once in a while, he is saying that he is not born of God. The scripture says that the born of God do not commit sin and Logic says that he does commit sin every once in a while. A man like Logic who claims that he has the power not to sin, because he doesn’t have, neither was born with a sin nature, but then decides he will sin once a month makes me wonder why he would want to sin at all. Myself I know I inherited a sin nature from Adam but thank God for the new nature I received from Christ and I don’t want to commit a sin ever, not once a month, neither one time in all of eternity. Since I have been born of God I have received a nature that does not commit sin. As long as I abide in Christ I will never desire to commit sin but if I fail to abide continually in Christ and allow that other nature to rise up instead of remaining crucified I could easily sin and will need to confess to God for cleansing through the blood of Christ and thank God for his mercy. Our focus should not be on self but Christ. We should not be thinking after the flesh but the after the Spirit where there is life and peace, then the Holy Spirit will convict us of any sin to confess and be cleansed from. We are to be dead to sin and self but alive to God. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from our sins but the cross crucifies our sinful nature. We must believe that we were crucified with Christ in order for the old man (our sinful nature) and his deeds to be destroyed.

Blessings to all!

whyme wrote:
Perhaps we still have two natures in us after conversion. The Spirit and my spirit war with my sinful flesh. It is still all me but two different parts of me. I'm sure that some of you will find this in error or part of some prior heresy but the Scriptures seem to support the notion. My spirit cannot sin ( the divine nature born by the Spirit within me ) whereas my flesh ( the sinful nature ) which has not been yet fully defeated ( ie., the presence of sin) can and in fact does. I know this sounds psyhzofrenic.

Exactly. This was the dilemma of the Apostle Paul, and the dilemma of all true believers. We have within us the Spirit of God, but because we still live in the flesh, we have also within us the spirit of self. These two war within us, but as long as we obey the command to take up our crosses daily (die to self), and as long as we truly love God above all else (including self), we will be fine - maybe an occasional stumble, but the Lord Jesus is faithful and will keep us from falling.

ccrider wrote:
"The thing is, you can't even repent of it if you can't stop it." logic

Okay... have you stopped it??? Yes or no.

"The fact that I sin maybe "once a month, a year, or a decade" just proves that I chose to sin, but then I repent and stop it again." logic

Stop it AGAIN. And again. And again. And again.

Okay you said above that "The thing is, you can't even repent of it if you can't stop it." but interestingly use the words repent and stop it AGAIN. I see the words STOP and AGAIN as contradictory as your theology.

I am in control when ever I sin. I don't have to sin when I do, but I always sin by choice.
I don't blame it on my nature, I blame my self.

It sounds as though you can't stop sinning because you have no control of it; you don’t choose to sin, but that you just do it with out knowledge.
You have no choice not to sin.
That is how I read when I hear all you come against this.

You seem to think that righteousness is repenting as many times as needed and after each time you have the ability to live sinlessly thereafter.

That is until you sin again and repent again and NOW you are sin free and able not to choose it and don't believe that you will sin in the future... until it happens again then you repent and are now sin free and are able to live sinlessly thereafter until you sin again and then you are now free again and able to choose not to sin at all in the future... that is until you sin again and once again you repent and now you are free of that sin and know that you can surely stop it for good until you sin again then repent of that sin and are now free to move forward completely able to not sin until again you sin then repent and know that you are forgiven and clean and can now live righteously as you are still capable of not sinning until you sin again then repent because you don't love sin which is why you repent and are now given a clean slate until you sin again and then repent because you hate sin (as every born again Christian should) and now can stop sinning from this point on until you sin again and I think you get the point.

"Sin free" means that you are not in any sin, you are not sinning.

"Free from sin" means that sin has not dominion over you. You are not bound to sin.

I am not "sin free" when I am sinning, but I am not bound to it, I am free from it.

However, I may become bound to it if I come in to the habit of that sin, loving it; it will have dominion over me.

So where's the end of it logic?

Is this your definition of 'to stop sinning'?

I am glad you are seeing what I am saying, I think we are getting some where.
But I see you still need more understanding of what I mean.

Do you think that if you were struck by lightning in the middle of the 'again' and have passed on before a chance to repent, that you will be going to hell??

I don't believe that when I sin, I am hell bound.
That is Arminianism, which I am no of.
It is where I and truefaithsav & Finney are different.

Since I have a relationship with God through Jesus (John 17:3), I am covered by His blood for the sin which I die in to late for repentance.

Do I divorce my wife just because she sinned against me?
No.
God does not disown me just because I sinned against Him.
He knows that I will come to my senses to repent after I sin, knowing that I will have hated sinning, being deceived by the enemy to think I would enjoy it.

Thanx for this post.

whyme wrote:
Perhaps we still have two natures in us after conversion. The Spirit and my spirit war with my sinful flesh. It is still all me but two different parts of me. I'm sure that some of you will find this in error or part of some prior heresy but the Scriptures seem to support the notion. My spirit cannot sin ( the divine nature born by the Spirit within me ) whereas my flesh ( the sinful nature ) which has not been yet fully defeated ( ie., the presence of sin) can and in fact does. I know this sounds psyhzofrenic.

The Christianized Manichaeism Theology teaches that mankind is a "battleground" for good & evil: the good part is the soul, and the bad part is the body (flesh) which is composed of Earth (the Earth part is true). The soul defines the person and is incorruptible, but it is under the domination of a foreign power (of the body/flesh)

rbanks wrote:

...then sinning every once in a while, he is saying that he is not born of God.

[b]1John 5:18[/b] [color=990000]We know that whosoever is born of God [b]sins[/b] not[/color]

The word "sins" is present active.
Sinning every once in a while is not a present active sin.

If you can't stop sinning, even daily in though or deed, is present active sin.

To say that you can't stop sinning (which all of you are saying) is proving that you are not born of God.

The scripture says that the born of God do not commit sin and Logic says that he does commit sin every once in a while.

All I'm saying is that I do choose to sin in contrast with there necessity to tin.

A man like Logic who claims that he has the power not to sin, because he doesn’t have, neither was born with a sin nature, but then decides he will sin once a month makes me wonder why he would want to sin at all.

I also have my times of weakness, were I haven't been close enough to Jesus (by my own willful laziness).

Myself I know I inherited a sin nature from Adam but thank God for the new nature I received from Christ

Furthermore, I've heard that even after one is saved, they still have the "sin nature".

Which is it?
do you loose it or keep it?

and I don’t want to commit a sin ever, not once a month, neither one time in all of eternity.

Since I have been born of God I have received a nature that does not commit sin.

As long as I abide in Christ I will never desire to commit sin but if I fail to abide continually in Christ and allow that other nature to rise up instead of remaining crucified I could easily sin and will need to confess to God for cleansing through the blood of Christ and thank God for his mercy.

Our focus should not be on self but Christ. We should not be thinking after the flesh but the after the Spirit where there is life and peace, then the Holy Spirit will convict us of any sin to confess and be cleansed from. We are to be dead to sin and self but alive to God. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from our sins but the cross crucifies our sinful nature. We must believe that we were crucified with Christ in order for the old man (our sinful nature) and his deeds to be destroyed.

Just please understand me?

whyme wrote:
Perhaps we still have two natures in us after conversion. The Spirit and my spirit war with my sinful flesh. It is still all me but two different parts of me. I'm sure that some of you will find this in error or part of some prior heresy but the Scriptures seem to support the notion. My spirit cannot sin ( the divine nature born by the Spirit within me ) whereas my flesh ( the sinful nature ) which has not been yet fully defeated ( ie., the presence of sin) can and in fact does. I know this sounds psyhzofrenic.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

So here we see Paul saying that in his inner man he delights in the law of God. This what God told us about through the Prophet Ezekiel Ezk 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. but that is only one part of the promise he made.

Ezk 36:23 God tells us "I shall be [b]sanctified in you[/b] before their eyes" why so the "heathen shall know that I am the LORD"

This promise is spelled out by God as a work of sanctification in us so God can be glorified in us and it is a two part like I posted earlier Spirit and Heart.

Ezk 36:26 A [b]new heart[/b] also will I give you, and a [b]new spirit[/b] will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Back to Paul when we read in Roms 7:23 Paul declares that the law of sin which is in my members.

So Paul is telling us that there are two natures at war. One is the Spirit and the other is the old man that still lives in your mind, will and emotions (your heart) if you have not been sanctified.

To me Paul in Romans 7 is decribing a stage in his life where his spirit is born again but his heart in not yet purified. He goes on to say that in this condition that he is a wrecthed man because that unpurified heart brings him into captivity to the law of sin. Rom 7:23-24

This nature we are told by Paul to [b]put off[/b] all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy Col 3:8. Does the bible tell us where these issues stem from.

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man Matt 15:19-20

So we have to put off something from the heart.

Then in Col 3:12 Paul tells us to [b]put on[/b] bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering but these must flow from a pure heart a new heart Ezk 36:26

Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is [b]the bond of perfectness[/b]

What is the bond of perfectness charity(Love) and it comes from a heart that been cleansed and is filled with Love for God and our fellow men and that in a nut shell is Christian Perfection.

Hey Leo:

I agree totally with what you said here - that is exactly the way understand my salvation also. But please read the whole thread. Some of us here are trying to deal with a couple of posters who insist that being born again means being totally without sin as a choice in their lives. They totally deny the truth in Scripture (Lk 18:9-14 and 1 Jn 1:5-10) that every born-again Christian must be humble enough to recognize that sin remains with us as long as we live in the flesh, and that this must be confessed and repented of. Would you claim to be without sin now that you are born again?

I fully understand the conversation going on here. That is why I made the comments that I did. The entire conversation is centered around whether a Christian, if he so chooses, can come to a state of sinlessness in his life. My point is that if we really understand what has been done for us through the atoning work of Christ, then the question, the very discussion itself need not occur.

Logic et.al., like many Christians, seem to be focusing on the action of sin. I am not sure what background Logic comes from, but it seems to be the same old argument that has existed for some time.

One side insists that actions of sin cause one to lose out with God and be damned if not individually repented of before death. They believe in conditional immortality, the condition being living a sinless life or else making sure every infraction is individually dealt with. They contend that salvation is lost through actions of sin. Their focus, unfortunately, is turned toward sin. They are consumed with trying to make sure they do not commit sins. It is the wrong focus and often leads to living a very legalistic life and often a perversion of the gospel as Paul talks about in Galatians.

The other side says that once a person is born again they have no more worries. Their ticket has been purchased and they are allowed to amuse themselves however they wish until time for the train to leave. They contend there is no way to ever lose salvation. They contend that every man and woman must, due to a sin nature in them, sin every day, week, (choose your own time period) and rely on the grace of God to cover that sin.

My point is that both sides are focused on SIN, and this focus will always lead the wrong direction. The whole argument is a symptom of an improper focus on both sides.

Christians need to quit worrying about sin. That issue has been taken care of on the cross. Sin is no longer an issue with God. He has done everything about sin that He will ever do. It is finished!!! We have received the ministry of reconciliation. Through what Christ has done, we are now righteous in the eyes of God if we have been born again.

When we turn our focus to what Christ has done for us and to our relationship with God we will, due to our NEW nature, begin to walk in Holiness without having to strive for it. It will come out as a natural byproduct of who we now are.

I understand the argument. I am just saying that a man or woman who is walking in close personal relationship with God has no need for the argument. They are too busy becoming more and more like Christ and drawing near to Him to worry about sin in their lives at all. If they find themselves missing the mark, which I agree we all WILL DO from time to time, they simply repent, agree with the Holy Spirit on the issue, and continue walking with God.

I hope what I have written will be read, considered, and maybe give everyone a little bit different way to see this.

whyme wrote: Perhaps we still have two natures in us after conversion. The Spirit and my spirit war with my sinful flesh. It is still all me but two different parts of me. I'm sure that some of you will find this in error or part of some prior heresy but the Scriptures seem to support the notion. My spirit cannot sin ( the divine nature born by the Spirit within me ) whereas my flesh ( the sinful nature ) which has not been yet fully defeated ( ie., the presence of sin) can and in fact does. I know this sounds psyhzofrenic

The old man, the old nature dies at salvation. The new man is created in righteousness and true holiness. No duality of nature.

The reality is that our new nature is our spirit against which our flesh wars. Our mind is not renewed and is still full of junk from the past. Our body still has weaknesses. Not a duality of natures. A new nature. A soul and body that are not yet made perfect.

Not psychzofrenic at all. Just an unregenerate mind will emotions and body that must be brought under subjection to the Holy Spirit. Romans 12:2.

twayneb wrote:

The old man, the old nature dies at salvation.

Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Here is an exhortation not to sinners, but to a church. Certain expressions in this Epistle show beyond all question the spiritual condition of the members of the church. Paul says that they were "quickened" who had been "dead in trespasses and in sins;" that they were once "afar off, " but were now "made nigh by the blood of Christ; " that they were no more strangers and foreigners, but "fellow-citizens with the saints and of the household of God."

Still again he tells them to forgive one another "even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you," and a few verses after that states: "Ye were sometime darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light."

These expressions undoubtedly declare the saved condition of the people to whom the apostle wrote. And yet to these who were "forgiven" and "light in the Lord" and "of the household of God" he writes: "Put off the old man."

Could anything be plainer?

Does not the reader see that something dark and evil is left in the heart of the regenerated man? That this something which is here called the "old man" is not to be pardoned, but taken away, put off, removed.