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Inbred Sin Is Not Removed By Conversion

M
murrcolr

It seems to me that many a christians believe that Inbred sin (the old man) is dealt with at conversation.

At conversion, all the carnal mind, or inbred sin, is not destroyed. A very troublesome residuum still remains, which is the chief cause of backsliding, intensifies the power of the temptations of the devil, is the root of the strife we often see among Christians, and is that which demands satisfaction from the world, leading so many followers of God to go to the world for gratification.

The Scriptures teach that remnants of carnality, or inbred sin Let us turn to the New Testament. Paul says to the church at Corinth 1 Cor 3 "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able." Here he acknowledges that they were "in Christ," and "brethren," but that they were "carnal," "babes in Christ"; that is, the carnal mind still existed in these brethren. And no one could say to the Apostle, we are pure in heart; we became so when we became brethren; for he tells them in the next verse in what form inbred sin exhibited itself. "For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?" This Scripture clearly teaches, then, by the recognition of the Apostle, that we may be "brethren," and yet be "carnal," as evinced in unholy temples. These had not backslidden, for they were "babes in Christ." Neither had inbred sin been destroyed in these "babes in Christ."

The Apostle describes, in the seventh chapter of Romans, the struggle of a man with inbred sin. Some have understood in this chapter that a Christian is referred to; others, that it refers only to the unconverted. While it illustrates, in some degree, the case of every one, both saint and sinner, in whom dwells the carnal mind, it seems to us more especially to illustrate the experience of the Christian who has perceived the exceeding spirituality of God's law. It is only a Christian with an abhorrence for sin divinely implanted, who could utter such a heart-rending cry as: "O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" But the confession of the man is the Scriptural confession of a man in favor with God. Hear him in the twenty-second verse: "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man." Now the man who "delights in the law of God, after the inward" man, is a Christian, - a servant of God, the ungodly are not so.

Yet he may delight in the law of the Lord in the inner man, and yet have the same experience that the Apostle speaks of in the next verse Rom 7:23 "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind." In the epistle to the Galatians, Paul tells us of this same law of inbred sin in the Galatian Christians, who had "begun in the Spirit," and expected to be "made perfect by the flesh." He says: "This, I say then, walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfil the lusts of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh, and these are contrary, the one to the other, so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." Here we have a contest in the hear ts of these Galatians between the Spirit and the flesh.

jOHN Wesley says on the passage: "But the Holy Spirit, on his part, opposes your evil nature"; and again, in his sermon on Sin in Believers, he says of the passage: "Nothing can be more express. The Apostle here directly affirms that the flesh, evil nature, opposes the Spirit, even in believers; that even in the regenerate, there are two principles, contrary the one to the other."

Inbred sin had come into this church in the same form as at Corinth. The Bible abounds with the teaching that inbred sin exists, in a degree, in the justified. We find, too, that the Thessalonian Church were "in God the Father, and in the Lord Jesus Christ" 1 Thess 1:1 and yet some things were lacking in their faith 1 Thess 3:10 Inbred sin lurked in a state of imperfect faith in the heart that failed to save them from a certain sin that they were as yet ignorant of as displeasing to God.

Inbred sin never was forgiven, and never can be forgiven, either in this world or the world to come. It is not one of those things that forgiveness could touch. Forgiveness is granted only for those things that we do; not for what we are by nature. Inbred sill is not a deed, but a state.

Before closing this post, stop to notice the objection usually raised at this point. It is often said: "I gave my all to God at conversion, and He did the whole work for me then. When God does a work, He does a perfect work. He does not do any half-way work." This sounds very plausible and very reasonable, but it is an unfair statement. It assumes that other people accuse the Lord of performing only a half-way work, which is not the case. God does perform a perfect work at conversion. But perfect conversion is not perfect cleansing. He must be converted to see the spirituality of God's law. That he cannot see in his sins. For he is "dead in trespasses and sins." He must have new faculties, in order to see the spirituality of God's laws. He is converted in order to put him where he may intelligently see the loathsome corruption of inbred sin.

R
rbanks

Murrcolr,

very good post brother!

The scriptures are clear about if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

L
Leo_Grace

I agree totally, Murrcolr. Any Christian who looks deeply into the holiness of God as presented in the Word and clarified by the Spirit, cannot help but see how far he falls short of God's holiness. The more you draw near to God, the more you will loathe yourself for the weakness of your flesh and the sins that arise despite your best efforts to please God.

This weakness is our "thorn in the flesh" that keeps us humble and truly dependent upon the Lord Jesus for our sanctification.

A
AbideinHim

Brothers, There is much confusion concerning sin and the sin nature within a Christian.

At the new birth all of our past sins are cleansed by the blood of Jesus. There is total forgiveness of sin.

The sin nature, that is who we were in Adam before we are born again has been nailed to the cross with Christ. We have been (past tense), not going to be, crucifed with Christ.

The good news of Romans 6 is that our sin nature has been dealt with at the cross.

As a new Christian we are babes in Christ, and until we grow up and learn to walk in the Spirit, then we are indeed carnal. Being carnal is not a state that we are to habitually abide in, because God has called us to put off the deeds of the body, put off the old man, and put on the new. If we walk in the Spirit, then we wont fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

As Christians we must claim all of the finished work of the cross for the putting off of the old man. We must agree with God that our old man is crucifed with Christ. We must reckon (or account} ourselves as being dead to sin but alive unto God.

The babe in Christ must go through a process of sanctification, his mind must be renewed. The soul (mind, will, and emotions) is in the process of being saved.

Our bodies must be submitted to God as living sacrifices which is our reasonable service. (Romans 12:1,2).

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Romans 6:6).

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:11).

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17).

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1,2).

S
sermonindex


Brothers & Sisters, let us reason together.

As a Christian, in this body of flesh and blood, I am in the process of “being” Sanctified. I will not be completely sanctified until the rapture, when I receive my new glorified body like that of Jesus Christ, and shed this corrupt body of flesh and blood, inherited from Adam.

Now, each of us has the Holy Spirit that lives within us and leads us into all truth(he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you)--- But, we we are still not perfected like Jesus Christ during our lifetimes.
(John 16:13-14).

Ephesians 4:30
30. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

We will not be complete until we get rid of this body of flesh and blood and receive a new, glorified body:

(1 Cor 15:50)
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


Today, as we continue to live on this earth throughout our entire life, we are still in the continuous state of repenting and believing & being (not already) sanctified.

(1 Cor 13:12)
12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
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Cor 1 Cor 15:50-58 describes the rapture, when we finally get rid of our corrupted bodies of flesh and blood (for those that are still living at this time). For others who have previously died, who are in heaven (under the mercy seat) in their spirit bodies, waiting for their new glorified physical bodies. They will receive their glorified bodies first, and we will receive ours immediately after them, and then go up to be with the Lord in heaven for 7 years during the Great Tribulation:

1 Cor 15:50-58
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
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Only then, at the rapture, will we be totally sanctified. Until then, we are a work in progress, becoming more like Him, and more Holy, but never all the way. The way we can tell? Are any of us like Jesus Christ? How was He? Totally sinless, by thought and deed. He also had the Holy Spirit within Him beyond (without) measure, totally overflowing.
John 3:34-36

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We, as Christian believers, have the Holy Spirit with measure. 100% of our thoughts and deeds are never pure, like those of Christ. Again, we are a “work in progress” until the rapture, and then “We Will Be Like Him”, and be with Him Forever!!!!

Sincerely,

Walter


L
Leo_Grace

We, as Christian believers, have the Holy Spirit with measure. 100% of our thoughts and deeds are never pure, like those of Christ. Again, we are a “work in progress” until the rapture, and then “We Will Be Like Him”, and be with Him Forever!!!!

Sincerely,

Walter


Very well said, Walter. I hope others will see the truth in this.

S
sermonindex

Not only upon conversion; but many believe in a second, sanctifying grace that propels us into sinless perfection, that may occur along the path at any time.


Bob L. Ross
Ross begins;..I John 3:9 — "Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Notice that phrase, "he cannot sin, because he is born of God." But according to the notion of the "sinless perfection" crowd, a Christian can sin! I heard one say over the radio just a few days ago that "if you sin after you're saved, you're lost again." But this verse says that a saint cannot sin!

But, what will the "sinless perfection" crowd do with that verse? Will they accept it? If so, they will have to come on over and believe in Eternal Security, for if a person cannot sin, then he is secure eternally. But if they teach that one born of God can sin, then they deny God's Word. Now, which horn will Mr. Sinless Perfection take? He is stabbed to death on either one.

Now, what does this verse teach? It is telling us that the man born of God does not and cannot sin, because the seed of God — the new nature begotten by the Spirit — remains in him. Now, the flesh isn't born of God. That which is born of flesh is flesh. But the "new man" — the spiritual man — is born of God. It is this inward man — the new nature — that does not, and cannot sin.

When God saved us, He did not change our old Adamic fleshly nature one particle; He simply gave us a new nature. Now, we have two: one of them wants to sin, the other fights against sin, and causes us to serve the Lord. All sin is of the old fleshly nature, and all good is of the spiritual nature. This new nature (new man) cannot sin and cannot even approve of a sinful thought.

Another verse that teaches us this same truth is I John 5:18 — "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

You see, here we have security again. The new man keeps himself, and the devil cannot touch him. The only nature the devil can touch is the old flesh. The old flesh is nothing but a mass of sin.

We won't have this old body of sin in Heaven, for the Lord will give us a new body. No sinful thing can enter Heaven, so God doesn't take the old sinful body to Heaven! Beloved, the very fact that Christians die, physically, proves that they are not sinless in the body. Do you realize that the only thing that causes either physical or eternal death is sin? Thus, IF we were sinlessly prefect in the flesh, we would never die, for there would be no sin to cause us to die. In view of the fact that we all die, it is quite evident that no one is perfect in the old flesh."....Bob L. Ross.
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I agree with this theology. Can you see where theology is important? I hope so. For, if you err in this one, seemingly minor truth, then you miss the Cross, and the ABILITY to bear it, and thereby the ability to mature! Yes; in the long run, it may even cost you your soul! One can run out of grace, as the 5 virgins of Matthew 25 did.


Jesus said; "If any man come after ME, let him deny himself, pick up his cross daily, and follow me.

If we were ever somehow without sin, WHY would we ever DENY ourselves? Why would we pick up our CROSS?..[ death to ourselves ].


We are sinless when we behold Him as He is, and I assure you, it will not be in this body. Paul said; "I press in to the high call!", and "I have not yet attained!"


We must allow the spirit to "mortify", to destroy, this "body of death" we all dwell in.


Paul cried, as every true believer always has, and always will, "Who will deliver me from this body of Death!" Yes, when we see Jesus, we will be like him. I can't wait, but that is why I am holding on, and trying to bear my cross too.

T
twayneb

At conversion, all the carnal mind, or inbred sin, is not destroyed. A very troublesome residuum still remains, which is the chief cause of backsliding, intensifies the power of the temptations of the devil, is the root of the strife we often see among Christians, and is that which demands satisfaction from the world, leading so many followers of God to go to the world for gratification.

I would say this is true only if one believes it is the carnal mind that is the part of man that is born again. Jesus teaches in John 3 that is is the spirit that is born again, not the mind. Paul says the mind must be renewed (Romans 12:2). Regeneration is not a change of memory but a total rebirth of the spirit. Our spirit is perfected forever, recreated in righteousness and true holiness, sealed. The mind will continue to give us problems until we are glorified. Our problem was never with our mind, it was with our spirit. When we, as born again believers, sin it is not because we are somehow struggling with two natures. It is that we are struggling with living out of the spirit or following the ways of the unrenewed mind, the flesh if you will.

Holiness is the fruit that springs from the root of regeneration. A new man, a new nature, will yield the peaceable fruits of righteousness which are actions of holiness.

L
Logic

It is evidentl that you are confusing the flesh to be something as "inbred sin". This is wrong because you making sin something which it is not

Sin is either a verb or attitude of the heart which we, by our own personal choice are guilty of.

Sin is alway to be guilty of & always able to be repented of.
[b]IF[/b] sin is "inbred", then it can not be a fault which anyone is guilty of, nor can it be repented of.
This means the the so called "inbred sin" is not realy sin but a flaw of creation; we are victims of "inbred sin" and not really criminals.

We must understand about the flesh that it is still "good" as God called it in the beginning; which means "useful or serving its purpose, good for which it is created to do."

The flesh will give pleasure because of the senses. The flesh is amoral, it takes pleasure in what ever & however, good or bad, morally or immorally for it has no mind to discern. This is unchangeable, it will remain the same even after we are saved; the flesh needs to be done away with. That will happen in the resurrection.

Now the man who "delights in the law of God, after the inward" man, is a Christian, - a servant of God, the ungodly are not so...
...Inbred still is not a deed, but a state.
The ungodly may be so, Paul was a pharisee before he was saved, therefore he elighted in the law of God even when he was unsaved.

Furthermore, the term "inbred" means to have by birth, however, sin can not be inherited. It is not anything in the blood or genetic like a disease & even hair or eye colored which is passed down from birth. Sin is not anything to be born with.

The Bible abounds with the teaching that inbred sin exists
You can only see it "abounding" in the Bible if one has an alien definition of sin which is not Biblical.

Yet he may delight in the law of the Lord in the inner man, and yet have the same experience that the Apostle speaks of in the next verse Rom 7:23 "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind."
The ''law of sin'' in Rom 7:23 is the demands of one's own fleshly desires & effections against known law that bring him in opposition to God which separates him from God. The ''law of sin'' includes the inability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in Christ.

This concludes that which is in our ''members'' (in our flesh, veres :23) are the unlawful effections &/or desires of the flesh which brings about spiritual death.

S
sermonindex


[b]Let us continue to reason together. Since none of us read and study from the same Bible anymore, much confusion has arisen within the body of Christ about the "down payment", the "earnest" that we receive when we are saved, and the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us.[/b]


All of us are either “in” Adam, or “in” Christ. Before we were saved, and born again, we were all “in” Adam. We have inherited his sin nature. It is our nature to sin, by thought and deed.

Sin is described in the Bible as transgression of the law of God (1 John 3:4) and rebellion against God (Deuteronomy 9:7; Joshua 1:18). Genesis 3 describes Adam and Eve’s rebellion against God and His command. Because of Adam and Eve’s disobedience, sin has been an “inheritance” for all of their descendants. Romans 5:12 tells us that, through Adam, sin entered the world and so death was passed on to all men because all have sinned. This passed-on sin is known as inherited sin. Just as we inherit physical characteristics from our parents, we inherit our sinful nature from Adam.

Adam and Eve were made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:6). However, we are also in the image and likeness of Adam (Genesis 5:3).

When Adam fell into sin, the result was every one of his descendants also being “infected” with sin. David lamented this fact in one of his Psalms: “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5). This does not mean that his mother bore him illegitimately; rather, his mother had inherited a sin nature from her parents, and they from their parents, and so on. David inherited sin from his parents, just as we all do. Even if we live the best life possible, we are still sinners as a result of inherited sin.

Being born sinners results in the fact that we all sin. Notice the progression in Romans 5:12: sin entered the world through Adam, death follows sin, death comes to all people, all people sin because they inherit sin from Adam. Because “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), we need a perfect, sinless sacrifice to wash away our sin, something we are powerless to do on our own. Thankfully, Jesus Christ is the Savior from sin! Our sin has been crucified on the cross of Jesus, and now “in Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Ephesians 1:7). God, in His infinite wisdom, has provided the remedy for the sin we inherit, and that remedy is available to everyone:[b] “Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you” [/b](Acts 13:38).

[b]However, once we come to belief in Jesus Christ, the Messiah, we only have the down payment (the “earnest”, the “guarantee”, the “pledge”) when the Holy Spirit comes to live within our hearts. We are still not perfect like Christ. Of course, if we sin (and we will) we are to repent of our sin (sinful deeds or sinful thoughts have the same weight) and turn back to Christ. We will not get the final payment (perfection, when we are honestly like Christ) until the rapture—see my previous post on this thread[/b]

[color=990000][b]WE HAVE THE SPIRIT AS AN EARNEST...
1. The Spirit is given as an[u] "earnest" (KJV) of our inheritance-[/u] (Ephesians 1:13-14);
(2Co 1:21-22)
a. Translated [u]"guarantee" (NKJV)[/u]
b. Translated[u] "pledge" (NASB, NRSV)[/u]
2. The word "earnest" (Gr. arrabon) - "first installment, deposit, down payment, pledge, that pays a part of the purchase price in advance, and so secures a legal claim to the article in question, or makes a contract valid...in any case,[arrabon]is a payment which obligates the contracting party to make further payments." - Arndt & Gingrich (Greek Lexicon & Word Study, page 109)
3. Vine points out that the word is closely connected to the modern Greek word for engagement ring - Expository Dictionary of
New Testament Words, Vol. II, p.11
4. "The Holy Spirit is God's earnest (down payment) to the Christian as assurance of the complete promised inheritance."
a. "There is no comfort here for the advocate of the impossibility of apostasy."
b. "The Christian can 'grieve' the Spirit (Ep 4:30)."
c. "We can forfeit the down payment and not receive the inheritance."
-- Ferrell Jenkins, The Finger of God, p.19
-- Receiving the Spirit is an indication that we are the children of God, and joint-heirs with Christ of the inheritance of which the Spirit is an "earnest" - Ro 8:14-17[/color][/b]

WE ARE STRENGTHENED BY THE SPIRIT...
1. God strengthens us by His Spirit in the inner man - Ep 3:16
2. It is by the Spirit we are able to put to death the deeds of the body - Ro 8:13
3. The Spirit helps in our weaknesses - Ro 8:26
-- The Spirit serves as God's instrumental agent by which He imparts strength and support to the Christian

WE ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT...
1.[b] Necessary if we are to be the sons of God[/b] - Ro 8:14
2. Necessary if we are [b]not to fulfill the lust of the flesh[/b] - Ga 5:16
3. Necessary if we are [b]not to fall under condemnation of the law[/b]
- Ga 5:18

WE BEAR THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT...
1. The fruit of a person led by the Spirit includes love, joy,
peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
gentleness, self-control - cf. Ga 5:22-23
2. We can be filled with peace and all joy in believing, and
abound in hope by the power of the Spirit - Ro 15:13
-- Producing such fruit is contingent on setting our minds on the
things of the Spirit - Ro 8:5-9

CONCLUSION

1. Exactly how the Spirit indwells the Christian may remain a mystery...
a. Many understand the indwelling as literal, with the Spirit
personally abiding in the Christian
b. Others view it as figurative, the Spirit dwelling through the Word
only
-- I used to hold the latter view; I now lean strongly toward the
former

2. Whatever the exact nature of the Spirit's indwelling, we must be
careful to not...
a. Grieve the Spirit, by whom we sealed for the day of redemption
b. Anger the Father, who has given us His Spirit as a pledge of our
inheritance
-- Which we can do by continuing in willful sin - Hebrews 10:26-31

3. Whatever the exact nature of the Spirit's indwelling, we must be
careful to...
a. Bring glory to God, by producing the fruit of the Spirit
b. Walk after the Spirit, being strengthened by the Spirit
-- Which we can do by being led by the Spirit, as we set our minds on the things of the Spirit - Romans 8:5-14


Sincerely,

Walter

M
murrcolr

Logic said:

IF sin is "inbred", then it can not be a fault which anyone is guilty of, nor can it be repented of.

The term "Inbred Sin" is not Scriptural, yet it contains a concise explanation, or comment, on the Scriptural terms, "carnal nature," "our old man," "the flesh," "fleshly lusts," etc. The term "Inbred Sin" expresses the same thing as the theological terms, "total depravity," and "original sin."

Inbred sin may be defined

It is not sin as an act. Sin is committed as an act in three ways.

a)We speak
b)Or do
c)Or think.

In other words, sin as an act is in the word, the deed, or the thought. A person cannot commit actual sin, except in one of these three directions.

The same may be said of sins of omission. Hence all sin, as an act, is either of omission or commission, in thought, word, or deed. But sin in thought, word, and deed, is not inbred sin.

Actual sin is the result of inbred sin. Actual sin bears the same relation to inbred sin that the plant bears to its root; the same relation that the eruptions of leprosy (a Scriptural type of sin), bear to the inward disease, - the relation of effect and cause.

Inbred sin is a state of heart causing outward manifestations of sin. James 1:15 "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin." And our Jesus still more forcibly tells us the source of actual sin in Mark 7 21-23: "For from within, out of the heart of man proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within and defile the man."

Outward sin is well catalogued. It is a howling wilderness that produces wild beasts; it is a corrupt heart that produces such sin. The state of heart that makes these manifestations is inbred sin.

This evil nature was transmitted by Adam to his children. It is said Genesis 5:3 "He begat a son in his own likeness, after his image." This is the statement of the great law of hereditary depravity. His firstborn illustrates this sad truth of original sin, by murdering his brother.

Inbred sin is usually what the Apostle speaks of in Hebrews 12 "The sin that doth so easily beset you." It fits us as easily as a well-fitted garment.

Dr Watts and Charles Wesley call inbred sin "the seeds of sin," because all outward or actual transgressions spring from it. Charles Wesley calls it "inbred leprosy," likening it to a disease deep-seated in the soul.

M
murrcolr


AbideinHim wrote:
Brothers, There is much confusion concerning sin and the sin nature within a Christian.

Yes I agree so that why I stared the post to help guys like you, here is a sermon from Spurgeon hope it helps you with your confusion.

I have a challenge for you I ask that you would seek God in what I am posting rather than regurgitate what you have been taught. You'll be susprised of the answer he will give you.

Delivered on Sabbath Morning, June 1, 1856, by the REV. C. H. Spurgeon.

"Then Job answered the Lord and said, Behold, I am vile."—Job 40:3-4.

SURELY, if any man had a right to say, I am not vile, it was Job; for, according to the testimony of God himself, he was "a perfect and an upright man, one that feared God and eschewed evil." Yet we find even this eminent saint, when by his nearness to God he had received light enough to discover his own condition, exclaiming, "Behold I am vile." We are sure that what Job was forced to say, we may each of us assent unto, whether we be God's children or not; and if we be partakers of divine grace, it becomes a subject of great consideration for us, since even we, although we be regenerated, must exclaim, each one for himself, "Behold, I am vile."

It is a doctrine, as I believe, taught us in Holy Writ, that when a man is saved by divine grace, he is not wholly cleansed from the corruption of his heart. When we believe in Jesus Christ all our sins are pardoned; yet the power of sin, albeit that it is weakened and kept under by the dominion of the new-born nature which God doth infuse into our souls, doth not cease, but still tarrieth in us, and will do so to our dying day. It is a doctrine held by all the orthodox, that there dwelleth still in the regenerate, the lusts of the flesh, and that there doth still remain in the hearts of those who are converted by God's mercy, the evil of carnal nature. I have found it very difficult to distinguish, in experimental matters, concerning sin. It is usual with many writers, especially with hymn writers, to confound the two natures of a Christian. Now, I hold that there is in every Christian two natures, as distinct as were the two natures of the God-Man Christ Jesus. There is one nature which cannot sin, because it is born of God—a spiritual nature, coming directly from heaven, as pure and as perfect as God himself, who is the author of it; and there is also in man that ancient nature which, by the fall of Adam, hath become altogether vile, corrupt, sinful, and devilish. There remains in the heart of the Christian a nature which cannot do that which is right, any more than it could before regeneration, and which is as evil as it was before the new birth—as sinful, as altogether hostile to God's laws, as ever it was—a nature which, as I said before, is curbed and kept under by the new nature in a great measure, but which is not removed and never will be until this tabernacle of our flesh is broken down, and we soar into that land into which there shall never enter anything that defileth.

It will be my business this morning, to say something of that evil nature which still abides in the righteous. That is does remain, I shall first attempt to prove; and the other points I will suggest to you as we proceed.

The FACT, the great and terrible fact, that EVEN THE RIGHTEOUS HAVE IN THEM EVIL NATURES. Job said, "Behold, I am vile." He did not always know it. All through the long controversy he had declared himself to be just and upright: he had said, "My righteousness I will hold fast, and I will not let it go;" and notwithstanding he did scrape his body with a potsherd, and his friends did vex his mind with the most bitter revilings, yet he still held fast his integrity, and would not confess his sin; but when God came to plead with him, he had no sooner listened to the voice of God in the whirlwind, and heard the question, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" than at once he put his finger on his lips, and would not answer God, but simply said, "Behold, I am vile." Possibly some may say, that Job was an exception to the rule; and they will tell us, that other saints had not in them such a reason for humiliation; but we remind them of David, and we bid them read the 51st penitential Psalm, where we find him declaring that he was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did his mother conceive him; confessing, that he had sin within him. In many other places in the Psalms, David doth continually acknowledge and confess, that he is not perfectly rid of sin; that still the evil viper doth twist itself around his heart. Turn also, if you please, to Isaiah. There you have him, in one of his visions, saying that he was a man of unclean lips, and that he dwelt among a people of unclean lips. But more especially, under the gospel dispensation, you find Paul, in that memorable chapter we have been reading, declaring, that he found in "his members a law warring against the law of his mind, and bringing him into captivity to the law of sin." Yea, we hear that remarkable exclamation of struggling desire and intense agony, "O, wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Do you expect to find yourselves better saints than Job? do you imagine that the confession which befitted the mouth of David is too mean for you? are ye so proud, that ye will not exclaim with Isaiah, "I also am a man of unclean lips?" Or rather, have ye progressed so far in pride, that ye dare to exalt yourselves above the laborious Apostle Paul, and to hope that in you, that is, in your flesh, there dwelleth any good thing? If ye do think yourselves to be perfectly pure from sin, hear ye the word of God: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say we have no sin, we make God a liar."

But scarcely do I need to prove this, beloved; for all of you, I am sure, who know anything about the experience of a living child of God, have found that in your best and happiest moments sin still dwells in you; that when you would serve your God the best, sin frequently works in you the most furiously. There have been many saints of God who have abstained, for a time, from doing anything they have known to be sin; but still there has not been one who has been inwardly perfect. If a being were perfect, the angels would come down in ten minutes, and carry him off to heaven, for he would be ripe for it as soon as he had attained perfection. I have found in talking to men who have said a good deal about perfection, that after all they really did not believe in any such thing. They have taken with the word and attached a different meaning to it, and either then proved a doctrine which we all knew before, or else supposed a perfection so absurd and worthless, that I would not give three half-pence for it if I might have it. In many of them it is a fault, I believe, of their brains, rather than their hearts; and as John Berridge says, "God will wash their brains before they get to heaven." But why should I stay to prove this, when you have daily proofs of it yourselves? how many times do you feel that corruption is still within you? Mark how easily you are surprised into sin. You rise in the morning, and dedicate yourselves by fervent prayer to God, thinking what a happy day you have before you. Scarce have you uttered your prayer, when something comes to ruffle your spirit, your good resolutions are cast to the winds, and you say, "This day, which I thought would be such a happy one, has suffered, a terrific inroad; I cannot live to God as I would." Perhaps you have thought, "I will go up stairs, and ask my God to keep me." Well, you were in the main kept by the power of God, but on a sudden something came; an evil temper on a sudden surprised you; your heart was taken by storm, when you were not expecting an attack; the doors were broken open, and some unholy expression came forth from your lips, and down you went again on your knees in private, exclaiming, "Lord, I am vile." I have found out that I have a something in my heart, which, when I have bolted my doors, and think all is safe, creeps forth and undoes every bolt, and lets in the sin. Besides, beloved, you will find in your heart, even when you are not surprised into sin, such an awful tendency to evil, that it is as much as you can do to keep it in check, and to say, "Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further." Nay, you will find it more than you can do, unless a divine power is with you, and preventing grace restrains your passions and prevents you from indulging your inbred lusts. Ah, soldiers of Jesus, ye have felt—I know ye have felt the uprisings of corruption, for ye know the Lord in sincerity and in truth; and ye dare not, unless you would make yourselves liars to your own hearts, hope to be in this world perfectly free from sin.

Having stated that fact, I must just make a remark upon it, and leave it. How wrong it is of any of us, from the fact of our possessing evil hearts, to excuse our sins. I have known some persons, who profess to be Christians, speak very lightly of sin. There was corruption still remaining, and therefore they said they could not help it. Such persons have no visible part nor lot in God's covenant. The truly loving child of God, though he knows sin is there, hates that sin; it is a pain and misery to him, and he never makes the corruption of his heart as an excuse for the corruption of his life; he never pleads the evil of his nature, as an apology for the evil of his conduct. If any man can, in the least degree, clear himself from the conviction of his own conscience, on account of his daily failings, by pleading the evil of his heart, he is not one of the broken-hearted children of God; he is not one of the tried servants of the Lord, for they groan concerning sin, and carry it to God's throne; they know it is in them—they do not, therefore, leave it, but seek with all their minds to keep it down, In order that it may not rise and carry them away. Mind that, unless you should make what I say a cloak to your licentiousness, and a covering to your guilt.
II. Thus we have mentioned the fact, that the best of men have sin still remaining in them. Now, I will tell you what are the doings of this sin. What does the sin which still remains in our hearts do? I answer—
1. Experience will tell you that this sin exerts a checking power upon every good thing. You have felt, when you would do good, that evil was present with you. Just like the chariot, which might go swiftly down the hill, you have had a clog put upon your wheels; or, like the bird that would mount towards heaven, you have found your sins, like the wires of a cage, preventing your soaring towards the Most High. You have bent your knee in prayer, but corruption has distracted your thoughts. You have attempted to sin, but you have felt "hosannah's languish on your tongue." Some insinuation of Satan has taken fire, like a spark in tinder, and well nigh smothered your soul with its abominable smoke. You would run in your holy duties with all alacrity; but the sin that doth so easily beset you entangles your feet, and when you would be nearing the goal, it trips you up, and down you fall, to your own dishonor and pain. You will find indwelling sin frequently retarding you the most, when you are most earnest. When you desire to be most alive to God—you will generally find sin most alive to repel you. The "evil heart of unbelief" puts itself straight in the road, and saith, "Thou shalt not come this way;" and when the souls says, "I will serve God—I will worship in his temple," the evil heart saith, "Get thee to Dan and Beersheba, and bow thyself before false gods, but thou shalt not approach Jerusalem; I will not suffer thee to behold the face of the Most High." You have often felt this to be the case: a cold hand has been placed upon your hot spirit when you have been full of devotion and prayer. And when you have had the wings of the dove, and thought you could flee away and be at rest, a clog has been put upon your feet, so that you could not mount. Now, that is one of the effects of indwelling sin.
2. But indwelling sin does more than that: it not only prevents us from going forward, but at times even assails us, as well as seeks to obstruct us. It is not merely that I fight with indwelling sin; it is indwelling sin that sometimes makes an assault on me. You will notice, the Apostle says, "O, wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Now, this proves that he was not attacking his sin, but that this sin was attacking him. I do not seek to be delivered from a man against whom I lead the attack: but it is the man who is opposing from whom I seek to be delivered. And so sometimes the sin that dwelleth in believers flies at us, like some foul tiger of the woods, or some demon, jealous of the celestial spirit within us. The evil nature riseth up: it doth not only seek to stop us in the way, but, like Amalek, it labours to destroy us and cut us off utterly. Did you ever feel, beloved, the attacks of inbred sin? It may be, you have not: but if not, depend upon it you will. Before you get all the way to heaven, you will be attacked by sin. It will not be simply your driving out the Canaanite; but the Canaanite, with chariot of iron, will attempt to overcome you, to drive you out, to kill your spiritual nature, damp the flame of your piety, and crush the new life which God has implanted in you.
3. The evil heart which still remaineth in the Christian, doth always, when it is not attacking or obstructing, still reign and dwell within him. My heart is just as bad when no evil emanates from it, as when it is all over vileness in its external developments. A volcano is ever a volcano; even when it sleeps, trust it not. A lion is a lion, even though he play like a kid; and a serpent, is a serpent, even though you may stroke it while for a season it slumbers; there is still a venom in its sting when its azure scales invite the eye. My heart, even though for an hour, it may not have had an evil thought, is still evil. If it were possible that I could live for days without a single temptation from my own heart to sin, it would be still just as evil as it was before; and it is always either displaying its vileness, or else preparing for another display. It is either loading its cannon to shoot against us, or else it is positively at warfare with us. You may rest assured that the heart is never other than it originally was; the evil nature is still evil; and when there is no blaze, it is heaping up the wood, wherewith it is to blaze another day. It is gathering up from my joys, from my devotions, from my holiness, and from all I do, some materials to attack me at some future period. The evil nature is only evil, and that continually, without the slightest mitigation or element of good. The new nature must always wrestle and fight with it; and when the two natures are not wrestling and fighting, there is no truce between them. When they are not in conflict, still they are foes. We must not trust our heart at any time; even when it speaks most fair, we must call it liar; and when it pretends to the most good, still we must remember its nature, for it is evil, and that continually.
The doings of indwelling sin I will not mention at length: but it is sufficient to let you recognize some of your own experience, that you may see that it is in keeping with that of the children of God, for that you may be as perfect as Job, and yet say, "Behold, I am vile."
III. Having mentioned the doings of indwelling sin, allow me to mention, in the third place, THE DANGER WE ARE UNDER FROM SUCH EVIL HEARTS. There are few people who think what a solemn thing it is to be a Christian. I guess there is not a believer in the world who knows what a miracle it is to be kept a believer. We little think the miracles that are working all around us. We see the flowers grow; but we do not think of the wondrous power that gives them life. We see the stars shine; but how seldom do we think of the hand that moves them. The sun gladdens us with his light; yet we little think of the miracles which God works to feed that sun with fuel, or to gird him like a giant to run his course. And we see Christians walking in integrity and holiness; but how little do we suspect what a mass of miracles a Christian is. There are as great a number of miracles expended on a Christian every day, as he hath hairs on his head. A Christian is a perpetual miracle. Every hour that I am preserved from sinning, is an hour of as divine a might as that which saw a new-born world swathed in its darkness, and heard "the morning stars sing for joy." Did ye never think how great is the danger to which a Christian is exposed from his indwelling sin? Come let me tell you.
One danger to which we are exposed from indwelling sin arises from the fact that sin is within us, and therefore it has a great power over us. If a captain has a city, he may for a long preserve it from the constant attacks of enemies without. He may have walls so strong, and gates so well secured, that he may laugh at all the attacks of besiegers; and their sallies may have no more effect upon his walls than sallies of wit. But if there should happen to be a traitor inside the gates—if there should be one who hath charge of the keys, and who could unlock every door and let in the enemy, how is the toil of the commander doubled! for he hath not merely to guard against foes without, but against foes within. And here is the danger of the Christian. I could fight the devil; I could overcome every sin that ever tempted me, if it were not that I had an enemy within. Those Diabolians within do more service to Satan than all the Diabolians without. As Bunyan says in his Holy War, the enemy tried to get some of his friends within the City of Mansoul, and he found his darlings inside the walls did him far more good than all those without. Ah! Christians, thou couldst laugh at thine enemy, if thou hadst not thine evil heart within; but remember, thine heart keeps the keys, because out of it are the issues of life. And sin is there. The worst thing thou has to fear is the treachery of thine own heart.
And moreover, Christian, remember how many backers thy evil nature has. As for thy gracious life, it finds few friends beneath the sky; but thine original sin hath allies in every quarter. It looks down to hell, and it finds them there, demons ready to let slip the dogs of hell upon thy soul. It looks out into the world, and sees "the lusts of the flesh, the lusts of the eye, and the pride of life." It looks around, and it seeth all kinds of men, seeking, if it be possible, to lead the Christian from his steadfastness. It looks into the Church, and it finds all manner of false doctrine ready to inflame lust, and guide the soul from the sincerity of its faith. It looks to the body, and it finds head, and hand, and foot, and all other members ready to be subservient to sin. I could overcome my evil heart if it had not such a mighty host of allies, but it makes my position doubly dangerous, to have foes without the gates, in league and amity with a foe more vile within.
And I would have thee recollect, Christian, one more thing, and that is, that this evil nature of thine is very strong and very powerful—stronger than the new nature, if the new nature were not sustained by Divine power. How old is my old nature? "It is as old as myself," the aged saint may say, "and has become all the stronger from its age." There is one thing which seldom gets weaker through old age—that is, old Adam; he is as strong in his old age as he is in his young age, just as able to lead us astray when our head is covered with grey hairs, as he was in our youth. We have heard it said that growing in grace will make our corruptions less mighty; but I have seen many of God's aged saints, and asked them the question, and they have said, "No," their lusts have been essentially as strong, when they have been many years in their Master's service, as they were at first, although more subdued by the new principle within. So far from becoming weaker, it is my firm belief that sin increases in power. A person who is deceitful becomes more deceitful by practising deceit. So with our heart. It did inveigle us at first, and easily entrapped us, but having learnt a thousand snares, it doth mislead us now perhaps more easily than before; and although our spiritual nature has been more fully developed, and grown in grace, yet still the old nature hath lost little of its energy. I do not know that the house of Saul waxeth weaker and weaker in our hearts; I know that the house of David waxeth stronger; but I do not know that my heart gets less vile, or that my corruptions become less strong. I believe that if I should ever say my corruptions are all dead, I should hear a voice, "The Philistines be upon thee, Samson;" or, "The Philistines be in thee, Samson." Notwithstanding all former victories, and all the heaps upon heaps of sins I may have slain, I should yet be overcome if Almighty mercy did not preserve me. Christian! mind thy danger! There is not a man in battle so much in danger from the shot, as thou art from thine own sin. Thou carriest in thy soul an infamous traitor, even when he speaks thee fair he is not to be trusted; thou hast in thy heart a slumbering volcano, but a volcano of such terrific force that it may shake thy whole nature yet; and unless thou art circumspect, and art kept by the power of God, thou hast a heart which may lead thee into sins the most diabolical, and crimes the most infamous. Take care, O take care, ye Christians! If there were no devil to tempt you, and no world to lead you astray, you would have need to take care of your own hearts. Look, therefore, at home. Your worst foes are the foes of your own households. "Keep thine heart with all diligence, for out of it are the issues of life," and out of it death may issue too,—death which would damn thee if sovereign mercy did not prevent. God grant, my brethren, that we may learn our corruptions in an easy way, and not discover them by their breaking out into open sin.
IV. And now I come to the fourth point, which is, THE DISCOVERY OF OUR CORRUPTION. Job said, "Behold, I am vile." That word "behold" implies that he was astonished. The discovery was unexpected. There are special times with the Lord's people, when they learn by experience that they are vile. They heard the minister assert the power of inbred lust, but perhaps they shook they heads and said, "I cannot go so far as that;" but after a little while they found, by some clearer light from heaven, that it was a truth after all—"Behold, I am vile." I remember preaching a little while ago from some deep text concerning the desperate evil of the heart; and one of my most esteemed friends said, "Well, I have not discovered that," and I thought within myself, what a blessing, brother! I wish I had not; for it is a most fearful experience to pass through: I dare say there are many here now who say "I trust in no righteousness of my own. I trust in nothing in the world but the blood of Christ; but still I have not discovered the vileness of my heart in the way you have mentioned." Perhaps not, brother; but it may not be many years before you are made to learn it. You may be of a peculiar temperament. God has preserved from all contact with temptations which would have revealed your corruptions, or perhaps he has been pleased, as a reward of his grace for deeds which you have been enabled to do for him, to give you a peaceable life, so that you have not been often tossed about by the tumults of your own soul; but nevertheless, let me tell you, that you must expect to find, in the inmost depths of your heart, a lower depth still. God comfort you, and enable you, when you come out of the furnace, to lie lower than ever at the footstool of divine mercy! I believe we generally find out most of our failings when we have the greatest access to God. Job never had such a discovery of God as he had at this time. God spoke to him in the whirlwind, and then Job said, "I am vile." It is not so much when we are desponding, or unbelieving, that we learn our vileness; we do find out something of it then, but not all. It is when by God's grace we are helped to climb the mount, when we come near to God, and when God reveals himself to us, that we feel that we are not pure in his sight. We get some gleams of his high majesty; we see the brightness of his skirts, "dark—with insufferable light;" and after having been dazzled by the sight, there comes a fall: as if, smitten by the fiery light of the sun, the eagle should fall from his lofty heights, even to the ground. So with the believer. He soars up to God, and on a sudden down he comes. "Behold," he says, "I am vile. I had never known this if I had not seen God. Behold, I have seen him; and now I discover how vile I am." Nothing shows blackness like exposure to light. If I would see the blackness of my own character, I must put it side by side with spotless purity; and when the Lord is pleased to give us some special vision of himself, some sweet intercourse with his own blessed person, then it is that the soul learns, as it never knew before, with an agony perhaps which it never felt, even when at first convinced of sin, "Behold, I am vile." God is pleased to do this. Lest we should be "exalted above measure, by the abundance of the revelation," he sends us this "thorn in the flesh," to let us see ourselves after we have seen him.
There are many men who never know much of their vileness till after the blood of Christ has been sprinkled on their consciences, or even till they have been many years God's children. I met, some time ago, with the case of a Christian, who was positively pardoned before he had a strong sense of sin. "I did not," he said, "feel my vileness, until I heard a voice, 'I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions;' and after that, I thought how black I had been. I did not think of my filthiness," said he, "till after I saw that I had been washed." I think there are many of God's people, who, though they had some notion of their blackness before they came to Christ, never knew how thoroughly vile they were till afterwards. They thought then, "How great must have been my sin to need such a Saviour! how desperate my filth, to require such a washing! how awful my guilt, to need such an atonement as the blood of Christ." You may rest assured, that the more you know of God and of Christ, the more you will know of yourself; and you will be obliged to say, as you did before, "Behold, I am vile;" vile in an extraordinary sense, even as you never guessed or fancies until now. "Behold, I am vile!" "I am vile, indeed!" No doubt many of you will still think, that what I say concerning your evil nature is not true, and you may, perhaps, imagine that grace has cut your evil nature up; but you know little about spiritual life, if you suppose that. It will not be long before you find the old Adam as strong in you as ever; here will be a war carried on in your heart to your dying day, in which grace shall prevail, but not without sighs, and groans, and agonies, and wrestlings, and a daily death.
V. Here is the way in which God discovers our vileness to ourselves. Now, if it be true that we are still vile, WHAT ARE OUR DUTIES? And here let me solemnly speak to such of you as are heirs of eternal life, desiring as your brother in Christ Jesus to urge you to some duties which are most necessary, on account of the continual filthiness of your heart.
In the first place, if your hearts be still vile, and there be still an evil nature in you, how wrong it is to suppose that all your work is done. There is one thing concerning which I have much reason to complain of some of you. Before your baptism you were extremely earnest; you were always attending the means of grace, and I always saw you here; but there are some, some even now in this place, who, as soon as they had crossed that rubicon, began from that moment to decrease in zeal, thinking that the work was over. I tell you solemnly, that I know there are some of you who were prayerful, careful, devout, living close and near to your God, until you joined the church; but from that time forth, you have gradually declined. Now, it really appears to me a matter of doubt whether such persons are Christians. I tell you I have very grave doubts of the sincerity of some of you. If I see a man less earnest after baptism, I think he had no right to be baptized; for if he had had a proper sense of the value of that ordinance, and had been rightly dedicated to God, he would not have turned back to the ways of the world. I am grieved, when I see one or two who once walked very consistently with us, beginning to slide away. I have no fault to find with the great majority of you, as to your firm adherence to God's word. I bless God, that for the space of two years and more you have held firm and fast by God. I have not seen you absent from the house of prayer, nor do I think your zeal has flagged; but there are some few who have been tempted by the world, who have been led astray by Satan, or who, by some change in their circumstances, or some removal to a distance, have become cold, and not diligent in the work of the Lord. There are some of my hearers who are not as earnest as they once were. My dear friends, if you know the vileness of your hearts, you would see the necessity of being as earnest now as ever you were. Oh! if, when you were converted, your old nature were cut up, there would be no need of watchfulness now. If all your lusts were entirely gone, and all the strength of corruption dead within you, there would be no need of perseverance; but it is just because ye have evil hearts, that I bid you be just as earnest as ever you were, to stir up the gift of God which is in you, and look as well to yourselves as ever you did. Fancy not the battle is over, man; it is but the first trump, summoning to the warfare. The trump has ceased, and thou thinkest the battle is over; I tell thee, nay, the fight has but now begun; the hosts are only just led forth, and thou hast newly put on thine harness; thou hast conflicts yet to come. Be thou earnest, or else that first love of thine shall die, and thou shalt yet "go out from us, proving that thou wast not of us." Take care, my dear friends, of backsliding; it is the easiest thing in the world, and yet the most dangerous thing in the world. Take care of giving up your first zeal; beware of cooling in the least degree. Ye were hot and earnest once; be hot and earnest still, and let the fire which once burnt within you still animate you. Be ye still men of might and vigour, men who serve their God with diligence and zeal.
Again, if your evil nature is still within you, how watchful you ought to be! The devil never sleeps; your evil nature never sleeps; you ought never to sleep. "What I say unto you, I say unto all, Watch." These are Jesus Christ's words, and there is nothing needs repetition half so much as that word "watch." We can do almost anything better than watch; for watching is very wearisome work, especially when we have sleepy souls to watch with. Watching is very fatiguing work. There is little open honor got by it, and therefore we do not have the hope of renown to cheer us up. Watching is a work that few of us, I am afraid, rightly perform; but if the Almighty had not watched over you, the devil would have carried you away long ago. Dear friends, I bid you watch constantly. When the adjoining house is on fire, how speedily do persons rise from their beds, and if they have combustibles, move them from the premises, and watch, lest their house also should become a prey to the devouring element! You have corruption in your heart: watch for the first spark, lest it set your soul on fire. "Let us not sleep as do others." You might sleep over the crater of a volcano, if you liked; you might sleep with your head before the cannon's mouth; you might, if you pleased, sleep in the midst of an earthquake, or in a pest-house; but I beseech you, do not sleep while you have evil hearts. Watch your hearts; you may think they are very good, but they will be your ruin if grace prevent not. Watch daily; watch perpetually; guard yourselves, lest you sin. Above all, my dear brethren, if our hearts be, indeed, still full of vileness, how necessary it is that we should still exhibit faith in God. If I must trust my God when I first set out, because of the difficulties in the way, if those difficulties be not diminished, I ought to trust God just as much as I did before. Oh! beloved, yield your hearts to God. Do not become self-sufficient. Self-sufficiency is Satan's net, wherein he catcheth men, like poor silly fish, and doth destroy them. Be not self-sufficient. Think yourselves nothing, for ye are nothing, and live by God's help. The way to grow strong in Christ is to become weak in yourself. God poureth no power into man's heart till man's power is all poured out. Live, then, daily, a life of dependence on the grace of God. Do not set thyself up as if thou wast an independent gentleman; do not start in thine own concerns as if thou couldst do all things thyself; but live always trusting in God. Thou has as much need to trust him now as ever thou hadst; for, mark thee, although thou wouldst have been damned without Christ, at first, thou wilt be damned without Christ now, unless he still keeps thee, for thou has as evil a nature now as thou hadst then.

E
elected

Abideinhim wrote:
Our bodies must be submitted to God as living sacrifices which is our reasonable service. (Romans 12:1,2).

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Romans 6:6).

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:11).

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17).

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1,2).

------------------------------------------------


Amen to these scriptures. The Methodists used to experience in Christ what they called,"second work of grace" or "entire sanctification". I am a believer in a deeper work of grace in our hearts that leads us to a closer union with Jesus and to spiritual freedom from all sin and unrighteouness.

We have inherit a fallen sinful nature and we are born spiritualy without life in God. We are not born sinners because we haven't trasgressed the law of God as babes but we are
born with an hereditary fallen nature of Adam.

The blood of Jesus cleases us from all sin and unrighteouness, if we confess our sin and wash our hearts in the blood we will have communion with God and Jesus will indwel our hearts by His Spirit.

Jesus Christ has dealt on the cross with our sinful nature and with our personal sin(s).

Our nature is very depraved and wicked and without Christ we are spiritualy blind, dead and in total darkness. I believe in a full gosple, that there is complete redemption for us as christians in Jesus Christ. Christ on the cross has broken the power of sin and of the devil over us. "Inbred sin", "indewlling sin", "innate sin" whatever you may call it have been dealt on the cross.

We should not put the emphases on the experience of sanctification but on the power of indwelling Christ to overcome any sin in us. What he has accomplshed for us, He can do it in us thru the Holy Spirit. If our experiences are not Christ-centerned we will be disillusioned at the end, or led astray by the devil.Christ should have the pre-eminence and lordship in our life and heart and Christ in us is the source of every blessing we receive.

There can be entire sanctification for us in this life, if we believe and unconditionally surrender to Christ. Its very clear from 1Thess 5:3, that the will of God for us is entire sanctification of the spirit, soul and body. The bible is very clear that we should not consciencely continue in sin, whoever teaches contrary is abusing the grace of God.Christ should take possesion of our heart and mind and body, if we want to be found in the will of God.

Sanctification can be a crises and at the same time progressive. We are to grow in the knowleage of Christ and in his grace. We need to increase in faith, hope love and other graces all the days of our lives. We that are in the body of Christ are exhorted to come to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. If we dont come to spiritual maturity will will remain babes in Christ and suffer from carnality.

We are called to be perfect and at the same time like Paul aiming toward perfection to the end of the days of our life, till we finish our race. This is a blessed "contradiction". Im not a perfectionist, but im not affraid to use the word perfect as used in the bible without prejudice, as im not affraid to use the word holy.

One thing is sure that as we grow in Jesus we can reach spiritual maturity and by the cleasing power of the blood shed on the cross and the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit we can be blameless and spotless as we wait for the blessed hope of the second comming of our Saviour Jesus Christ. This is the work of the blessed Saviour to prepare his Bride to be fit for heaven by cleasing her and imparting on her the beautiful garment of his holiness.

Im a babe in christ but i desire spiritual maturity,and im growing in Christ and faith. Till the day i pass away i will plead the blood of the Lamb as i walk in the light and may God grant me the grace to walk in love and in Spirit and to crucify daily my flesh with its passions and evil desires. Our hearts need the heat of the Spirit and our minds the light of the Word of God so that we may be fervent in spirit serving the Lord and sound in the apostles' doctrine and teaching.

O the depths of Gods love, how fathomless is his love! Left to ourselves we will be the most miserable sinners because we cann't initiate salvation. Before we searched him, He was searching for us, beore we loved Him, he loved us and chose us in Christ to be in the image of his Son, even before the foundation of the world.

Its all of and by grace, all the glory is to God, all the power is of Him, he is our all in all, without Him we are nothing. All the goodness comes from Him. How much we need a deeper revelation of the work of redemption in Jesus Christ. All our salvation it has been finished for us on the cross. He has destroyed the works of the devil on the cross and rose victorious from the grave, praise God. He intercedes for us before the Father in heaven and He has sent his Holy Spirit in us to be the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

I love this verse, "you sall know the TRUTH and the TRUTH shall set you free." We have freedom from sin and eternal life by believing and knowing Jesus Christ. If we really are partakers of the divine nature we should hate sin and love Jesus. As the hymn said, "Jesus lover of my soul", i know He loves His sheep and will lead them to green pastures and by the still waters of life. He will restore our souls and renew our minds by his blessed words, if we fellowship with Him dayly.

What i desire in me is: a spiritual union with God in Christ in my daily walk, a clean heart and a humble spirit, a heart that longs and thirsts for his presence and his Spirit.

"Who may ascend unto the hill of the Lord ? or who may stand in his holy place?"

The answer is, " He who has a clean hands and pure heart, who has not lifted up his soul to an idol, nor sworn deceitfully."

Do we want revival? It will not come into your life as long as you keep a spirit of unforgiveness, bitterness or anger in your heart towards your neighor. It will not come until we have a pure heart with pure motives, until we are completly broken vessels and surendered unconditionaly to Him. Not to forget also that it takes a bold faith to take hold of God and His promises and not to give up till heaven has let loose the power of God in you life and other people.

In Christ love,

Redi

L
Logic

murrcolr wrote:
Logic said:

IF sin is "inbred", then it can not be a fault which anyone is guilty of, nor can it be repented of.

The term "Inbred Sin" is not Scriptural, yet it contains a concise explanation, or comment, on the Scriptural terms, "carnal nature"
Carnal nature is not Scriptural.

concerning the "Old man"(Colos 3:9) it makes for a word play of "body of sin". (Rom 6:6)

The "old man" would be the person that Paul was before salvation.
Our old man (or who we were before we were saved) is the one that walked after the flesh in regards to our former behavior (Eph 4:22), having been corrupted according to the deceitful lusts.

Our soul that was ruled by the flesh & its passions was crucified with Him, that the (whole) body of those passions might be nullified, so that we no longer serve those passions.

Now, for "the flesh," "fleshly lusts," etc;
I explained that already:
We must understand about the flesh that it is still "good" as God called it in the beginning; which means "useful or serving its purpose, good for which it is created to do."

The flesh will give pleasure because of the senses. The flesh is amoral; it takes pleasure in what ever & however, good or bad, morally or immorally for it has no mind to discern. This is unchangeable, it will remain the same even after we are saved; the flesh needs to be done away with. That will happen in the resurrection.

The term "Inbred Sin" expresses the same thing as the theological terms, "total depravity," and "original sin."
No matter what, no one can be guilty for this; neither can they be responsible to what ever these cause.

Since you say that all mankind is born with this, that means that which “total depravity," and "original sin" causes are not are not condemnable.

No one is culpable for anything which they have no control over; since your say that we are born with these, it is like being born with a genetic disease. The disease causes harm, but the person is not to blame.

Fact is, anything mankind is born with, he is not culpable to.
Anything that mankind is born with which would cause him to do or act a certain way is no worthy of blame or condemnation.

Inbred sin is a state of heart causing outward manifestations of sin. James 1:15 "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin."
James 1:15 is concerning temptation.

[b]James 1:14[/b] [color=990000]But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being pulled away, being seduced by them.
[b]:15[/b] Then, when longing/desire is conceived[/color] (taken hold of the thing desired for selfishly without any regard for anyone else)[color=990000], it brings forth sin.
[b]:16[/b] Do not go astray after lust, it will always give birth to sin.[/color]

This "being drawn away & seduced" is actually being tempted to go away, not actually leaving yet.

Paris Reidhead wrote:
“Now temptation is not sin. Temptation is the proposition presented to the mind that you can satisfy a good appetite in a forbidden way. Temptation leads to sin…. Sin is the decision of the will…. sin is the decision to gratify a good appetite in a bad way."
Finding the Reality of God, pg 141-142)

“Are people in trouble spiritually because they inherit some spiritual defect from their parents or grandparents? No. They are in trouble because when they reach the age of accountability they deliberately turn their own way - they commit their will to the principle and practice of pleasing as the end of their being. That is sin.”
(Finding the Reality of God, pg 64-65)

And our Jesus still more forcibly tells us the source of actual sin in Mark 7 21-23: "For from within, out of the heart of man proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within and defile the man."
All mankind are able to have a clean, pure heart.

When Stephen was open air preaching, he said to the crowd “[color=990000]Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye[/color]” (Acts 7:51). Stephen was rebuking them for disobeying a specific commandment, "[color=990000]Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked[/color]" (Deut. 10:16).

Men are commanded change their hearts, which implies that they have the ability to change their hearts. God does not command the impossible at the threat of eternal punishment!

[b]To validate your statement of Jesus telling us about the source of actual sin, you must answer these questions:[/b]
Why would Stephen rebuke them, for being uncircumcised in their heart unless they were capable of circumcising their hearts?

Why rebuke them for breaking a commandment unless they were capable of obeying the commandment?

Why would he rebuke them for resisting the Holy Spirit unless they were capable of yielding to the Holy Spirit?

Unless they were capable of doing these things, why rebuke them for not doing these things?

Fact is, Stephen seemed to take for granted or assume the ability of the people he rebuked to have a clean, pure heart.

The state of heart that makes these manifestations is inbred sin.
Sorta' true, it is totally, 100% our fault for the state of our heart, we are not born with the state of our heart which we have no.
The term "inbred sin" is a grave misnomer!!!

This evil nature was transmitted by Adam to his children.
This is a Gnostic/Manichean theology.
Basically Gnostic/Manichean theology teaches a DUAL NATURE of man.
One side is light, good and virtuous. The other (material, physical) is of darkness or inherently evil.
Everything material or physical - (man’s flesh) is evil by nature from birth and drawn only toward sin.

It is said Genesis 5:3 "He begat a son in his own likeness, after his image." This is the statement of the great law of hereditary depravity. His firstborn illustrates this sad truth of original sin, by murdering his brother.
[color=990000]And Adam...
...begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth...[/color]

It does not say that Adam begat sons and daughters in verse 4 after his image.
This is because the author wanted to make a distinction from Seth in verse 3 and the others in verse 4.

What is the distinction?
Adam repented and his relationship was restored with God, he is now righteous. Cain was not in Adam's image & likeness because he did not repent. The lineage of Cain is unrighteous: the lineage of Seth is righteous.
The lineage of Seth brought Noah & he was righteous.

It does not even say that Cain was "after his image".

If it is as some imply that Adam's image is now sinful in contrast to that of when God made Adam & Eve in His image & After His likeness; Then it would surely say that Adam begat Cain "after his image"; and it wouldn’t make a distinction between Seth in verse 3 and the others in verse 4.
However, it only says that Seth & he only is "after his image".

Your interpretation of Genesis 5:3 is wrong.

Inbred sin is usually what the Apostle speaks of in Hebrews 12 "The sin that doth so easily beset you." It fits us as easily as a well-fitted garment.
The sin that does so easily beset us are the things which trip us up.

It is saying that it does not "fit us as easily as a well-fitted garment" but is too loose and hangs down to our legs to trip on in our "race"

We are to "lay aside these.

Dr Watts and Charles Wesley call inbred sin "the seeds of sin," because all outward or actual transgressions spring from it.
The "seeds of sin" must be of our own fault.
The "seeds of sin" are our own affections to unlawful things; sympathy to that which is wrong.

Charles Wesley calls it "inbred leprosy," likening it to a disease deep-seated in the soul.
This is wrong, because God called creation "good", "useful or serving its purpose, good for which it is created to do."

Our flesh is still "good" in that sense; is not "leprous" in the sense that God created it.
Adam is not the reason that our flesh is not "good" in the biblical sense; flesh was never meant to be used as strength for resisting sin. It is one of the very reasons that Adam fell; lust of the flesh...

M
murrcolr

Logic said:
No one is culpable for anything which they have no control over; since your say that we are born with these, it is like being born with a genetic disease. The disease causes harm, but the person is not to blame.

True you are not to blame it's not your fault that you are born this way. Know if God has provided us with a cure for the disease that we have been born with and we don't accept the remedy he has provided are we guilty or not guilty? We must never the less deal with the disease we have as the symptoms of the disease will keep on resurfacing.

The reason we sin is because we are sinners we are born with an evil inclination in our heart.

I hope to show through David we are born with this evil inclination

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me

Sin in this verse is the Strong number 2399.

From chata'; a crime or its penalty -- fault, X grievously, offence, (punishment of) sin

Sin is something you have done.

Iniquity in this verse is the Strong number 5771

From avah; perversity, i.e. (moral) evil -- fault, iniquity, mischief, punishment (of iniquity), sin.

Iniquity is a fault it describes how a human heart is not holy not set apart, not perfect, not godly perverse.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shaped perverse (evil, with fault and mischief) and in crime, fault and offence did my mother conceive me

David is saying that he was born perverse with an evil inclination in his heart.

Please note the difference between sin and iniquity

-------------------------------------------
SIN

In the Old Testamant, the word for "sin" is chatta'ah (or sometimes chata'). Chatta'ah almost always refers to an action.

INIQUITY

The word "iniquity" (avon in Hebrew) is used to express how a human heart is not holy not set apart, not perfect, not godly perverse

Despite this difference in form and function between sin and iniquity, Christians incorrectly use the word "sin" for both.

Christians believes in "original sin" but also believe people are made in God's image. What's up? Well, let us examine "original sin" with the distinction between sin and iniquity in mind. It would not make sense for someone to be born sinful to be somehow responsible for violating a commandment while in the womb. However, people are born with a large dose of iniquity: children need to be taught to share, to speak nicely, and so on. For a believer, "original sin" means that people are born with sin (iniquity meaning-- not holy-- not set apart-- not perfect-- not godly-- perverse) they are not naturally fit for God's presence.

S
sermonindex

It is our own free and personal choice to allow sin to be inside of us or not: Romans 6:12, Job 11:14, Matthew 23:26, Ecclesiastes 11:10 . Notice the emphasis on our own ability. It says "let not sin" and "put away". It is within our ability to allow ourselves to be inwardly sinful or inwardly holy.

If you have sin on the inside of you, it is because of your own choice, it is your own fault. But you can choose not to have any sin on the inside of you, as evidenced from the Scriptures I gave above.

What is sin? Sin is a selfish intention of the heart. Sin is not a substance that is flooting around inside your body. Inward sin is a wicked or disobedient heart. When we are converted, we get a new heart. We no longer are internally disobedient, we are internally obedient. We become pure in heart when we are truly converted.

We will still have a fallen body with temptations. But temptation is not a sin, because even Jesus Christ was tempted. And having a fallen body is not sin either, because even Jesus was perfect before He had a glorified body. Sin is not a substance of the body, nor is the temptations of the flesh sin. Sin is the choice of the heart to disobey God.

L
Logic

murrcolr wrote:

The reason we sin is because we are sinners.

On the contrary; we are sinners because we sin.

we are born with an evil inclination in our heart
No, we are born with appetites and feelings &/or emotions.
Our nature is to satisfy these appetites, it is our choice to satisfy them any way we choose. We do not have an inclination to satisfy them an a wrong way, but we do have an inclination to satisfy them is a right way because we have a concience.

These appetites and feelings &/or emotions are not bad or wrong in & of themselves, however, when we choose to satisfy our good appetites in a wrong way, that is when we sin.

No one can help what they feel, however, if our feelings &/or emotions are not kept in check or doing the controlling & not being controlled
this is when sin lies at the door.

Iniquity is a fault it describes how a human heart is not holy not set apart, not perfect, not godly perverse.
Yet, we are able to keep our heart (Prov 4:23).

We were not born with a wicked/perverse heart.
If so, that would be God's fault and a wicked thing to give.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shaped perverse (evil, with fault and mischief) and in crime, fault and offence did my mother conceive me

David is saying that he was born perverse with an evil inclination in his heart.

No he is not.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
[url=http://www.pinpointevangelism.com/libraryoftheologycom/writings/originalsin/Psalms_Fifty_One_Five-WilliamMurray.pdf]This is how the verse makes any sense[/url]

L
Leo_Grace

Logic said:

Our soul that was ruled by the flesh & its passions was crucified with Him, that the (whole) body of those passions might be nullified, so that we no longer serve those passions.

and truefaithsav said:

If you have sin on the inside of you, it is because of your own choice, it is your own fault. But you can choose not to have any sin on the inside of you, as evidenced from the Scriptures I gave above.

So tell us plainly, Logic and truefaithsav, if you truly believe in what you keep saying --- are you both living a sinless life before God?

L
Logic

Leo_Grace wrote:
Logic said:
Our soul that was ruled by the flesh & its passions was crucified with Him, that the (whole) body of those passions might be nullified, so that we no longer serve those passions.
truefaithsav said:
If you have sin on the inside of you, it is because of your own choice, it is your own fault. But you can choose not to have any sin on the inside of you, as evidenced from the Scriptures I gave above.
So tell us plainly, Logic and truefaithsav, if you truly believe in what you keep saying --- are you both living a sinless life before God?
I am right now and I plan to keep at it.
You should too.

S
sermonindex

Why is it that whenever I make a good point, using Scriptures, those points are completely ignored and the topic is switched to, "are you living without sin?" Is it because you cannot explain or refute the Scriptures that I posted?

I saw this same tactic used in other thread when we were discussing the moral character of the Apostle Paul. Instead of explaining or refuting the Scriptures I gave, which taught Paul was living a holy life, those were completley ignored and the question was asked "Are you living free from sin?"

The point was that the Apostle Paul was living free from sin. Just like now the point is that inward sin is an avoidable choice, as the Bible abundantly and repeatedly teaches.

Regarding the question, "Do you sin" my answer is that I do not usually sin. It is not my habit or practice. By the grace of God, and the influence of Jesus Christ in my life, I do not sin every day, week, or even every month. I have sinned since becoming a Christian, but I didn't have to and if I didn't repent I would have perished. I plan on going the rest of my life without sinning and then I plan on going all of eternity without sinning.

Now back to the topic:

It is our own free and personal choice to allow sin to be inside of us or not: Romans 6:12, Job 11:14, Matthew 23:26, Ecclesiastes 11:10 . Notice the emphasis on our own ability. It says "let not sin" and "put away". It is within our ability to allow ourselves to be inwardly sinful or inwardly holy.

Before sin there is temptation (James 1:14-15). With temptation there is a way of escape (1 Cor. 10:13). Therefore we never have to sin, inwardly or outwardly. God is good!

L
Leo_Grace


truefaithsav wrote:
Why is it that whenever I make a good point, using Scriptures, those points are completely ignored and the topic is switched to, "are you living without sin?" Is it because you cannot explain or refute the Scriptures that I posted?

I saw this same tactic used in other thread when we were discussing the moral character of the Apostle Paul. Instead of explaining or refuting the Scriptures I gave, which taught Paul was living a holy life, those were completley ignored and the question was asked "Are you living free from sin?"

The point was that the Apostle Paul was living free from sin. Just like now the point is that inward sin is an avoidable choice, as the Bible abundantly and repeatedly teaches.

Regarding the question, "Do you sin" my answer is that I do not usually sin. It is not my habit or practice. By the grace of God, and the influence of Jesus Christ in my life, I do not sin every day, week, or even every month. I have sinned since becoming a Christian, but I didn't have to and if I didn't repent I would have perished. I plan on going the rest of my life without sinning and then I plan on going all of eternity without sinning.

Now back to the topic:

It is our own free and personal choice to allow sin to be inside of us or not: Romans 6:12, Job 11:14, Matthew 23:26, Ecclesiastes 11:10 . Notice the emphasis on our own ability. It says "let not sin" and "put away". It is within our ability to allow ourselves to be inwardly sinful or inwardly holy.

Before sin there is temptation (James 1:14-15). With temptation there is a way of escape (1 Cor. 10:13). Therefore we never have to sin, inwardly or outwardly. God is good!


There is no need to refute any Scriptures you quoted because we all know that the Word of God is true. The Scriptures that say that the grace of God, the redeeming sacrifice of the Lord Jesus, and the power of the indwelling Spirit are able to keep us from sin is true - no one denies that.

But that enabling power to keep us from sin can only work when the believer is 100% given in submission to God - and this is the point of contention. For other Scriptures (1 Jn 1:5-10) tell us that it is not possible to maintain 100% communion with the Spirit because we continue to live in a vessel of flesh. In this passage we are warned to recognize the truth of this and not ignore the sin in our lives out of pride. Jesus also taught against such pride to his disciples:

[i]Lk 18:9-14 [b]To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable[/b]: [color=CC3300]“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘[u]God, have mercy on me, a sinner[/u].’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”[/color][/i]

It is good that you are at least willing to admit that you have sinned after you came to Christ. As to your claim that you don't even sin once a month...I hope that is not just pride rearing its ugly head. I would rejoice in God if your claim is indeed true, as God does know the truth. A whole month without a flash of anger, no rash words spoken, no wayward thoughts, no sinful doubts, no acts of omission, no thoughts of envy? I seriously doubt it (unless you're posting from within a glorified body and sitting with Elijah and Moses in heaven).

L
Logic

Leo_Grace wrote:
A whole month without a flash of anger, no rash words spoken, no wayward thoughts, no sinful doubts, no acts of omission, no thoughts of envy?
Anger is not a sin.

Rash words, acts of omission, thoughts of envy... are avoidable by choice.

All thoughts are not your own; Even Jesus had a thought of turning stones into bread, however, that was not His own thought, but induced by the Devil.
We may have a bad thought, but we do not sin untill we make it our own by dwelling on it.

All doubts are not sin, but may being carefull.

I seriously doubt it
[b]1 Corinthians 13:7b[/b] [color=990000]...Love believes all things, hopes all things...[/color]
IOW, One must believe and hope the best of another...

L
Leo_Grace


Logic wrote:
Leo_Grace wrote:
A whole month without a flash of anger, no rash words spoken, no wayward thoughts, no sinful doubts, no acts of omission, no thoughts of envy?
Anger is not a sin.

Rash words, acts of omission, thoughts of envy... are avoidable by choice.

All thoughts are not your own; Even Jesus had a thought of turning stones into bread, however, that was not His own thought, but induced by the Devil.
We may have a bad thought, but we do not sin untill we make it our own by dwelling on it.

All doubts are not sin, but may being carefull.

I seriously doubt it
[b]1 Corinthians 13:7b[/b] [color=990000]...Love believes all things, hopes all things...[/color]
IOW, One must believe and hope the best of another...

So it is you who defines what is sin? LOL! If I could define what is sin for me, then I could fix it so that I would not sin even in one year! Anyway, do I therefore take it then, that when you say that you sin less than once a month, it means that you commit murder, or adultery, or steal less than once a month? Anybody can do better than that.

[i]1Co 13:6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the [b]truth[/b].[/i]

We must speak the truth to each other in love.

M
murrcolr

As I walked out the church I had been attending for over 10 years, I crossed the road and prayed Father I know you said (not going to share what he said because it's what he choose me for) I don't know how you are going to do it but I believe you do it, but I am not going back to that church.

The very next step the Holy Spirit spoke to me and said "You'll be just like Job". Not the best thing to hear the Holy Spirit say to you.

Fast forward a few years, at the I was working in a country in West Africa I work 28 days on 28 days off but I wasn't going on with God, not attending church in a back slidden state. In this country I contract a viral infection this infection causes your skin to break out in blisters.

Looking at my skin I remember what the Holy Spirit spoke to me "You'll be just like Job".
So I decide it's time to fast and pray to get back into a place to hear from God.

After the breaking the Fast it was getting time to get ready for my time to return to West Africa, I wanted to take some material back with me so I started searching the internet to down load. This is when I first came across Sermon Index. I found sermons of Duncan Campbell one of which was his personnel testimony.

On the plane after we got our meal they dimmed the lights and I put on my headphones and listened to Duncan's testimony.

He gets to a point where he says "Go for God whatever it takes" the Holy Spirit uses these words burst the dam in me. I get up and run to the toilet at the back of the plane. I am now in the toilet on my knees sobbing and praying in complete brokenness.

This brokenness was with me for the 28 days while I was in West Africa and every time I got on knees I just wept and sobbed and submitted myself to God.

During that time I read the book of Job a lot in it I saw where God did a work in Job although Job was declared by God to be "perfect" I noticed that in Job 42:5 where Job declares that before he had heard of God with his ear but now hi eyes see him. This told me that there was a work that needed to be done in men’s hearts a work just like Duncan had testified about. It a cleansing work of the heart as Jesus said the “blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God”

So with that I ask God to cleanse my heart when praying I became aware of a system of sin that is living within me, that system is so wrapped up in my being that you believe it is you. I find the words to describe it hard to put across maybe one day I will get a better way to describe it but I now know it’s there and needs to be dealt with.

So there my testimony on why I came to believe what I believe about the sinful nature that you still retain after conversion.

Earlier in the post a brother mentioned revival, in the move of God that’s coming Holiness heart purity in God’s people is going to play a massive part. The teachings of Holiness and Holiness heart purity have been lost in the church today and that's why the church is in the pitiful condition it's in.

What we have today in church is Carnal men leading Carnal men who have never paid the price to get a clean heart and then we wonder how worldly ways of doing things have entered into the church.

It's a form of godliness but denies the power that God can cleanse us a give us a clean heart perfect heart in this life. Christians are lovers of self rather that lovers of God. It's only with a clean heart will we ever be able to live life the more excellent way which Paul describes in 1 Cor 13.

Your old man will always hinder you and seek you drag you back, that's the reason why we are so bent on backsliding because of him, he is the resistance to doing the will of God in your life and he is always at work seeking to get his own way he the old man is always seeking to make himself the Lord of your life in place of the new man Christ. He is the reason why there so much division and strife in churches and until we deal with him it will always be that way with you.

L
Logic

Leo_Grace wrote:
Logic wrote:
Anger is not a sin.

Rash words, acts of omission, thoughts of envy... are avoidable by choice.

All thoughts are not your own; Even Jesus had a thought of turning stones into bread, however, that was not His own thought, but induced by the Devil.
We may have a bad thought, but we do not sin untill we make it our own by dwelling on it.

All doubts are not sin, but may being carefull.

So it is you who defines what is sin?
No, The Bible does.
Whatever is not of faith is sin. Romans 14:23
All mankind are able to have faith.

Knowingly transgressing the law is sin. 1John 3:4

Knowing (and able) to do good (when responcible to do it) and not doing it is sin. James 4:17
Knowing that Jesus did not heal all (do good) He saw that were sick (John 5).

All unrighteousness is sin. 1John 5:17

Anyway, do I therefore take it then, that when you say that you sin less than once a month, it means that you commit murder, or adultery, or steal less than once a month? Anybody can do better than that.
Not those particular sins.
I may slander someone or I may covet something I know that God will not give me...etc...

L
Logic

murrcolr wrote:
I became aware of a system of sin that is living within me, that system is so wrapped up in my being that you believe it is you. I find the words to describe it hard to put across maybe one day I will get a better way to describe it but I now know it’s there and needs to be dealt with.
That "system of sin", or as Paul put it, “law of sin” from Romans 7:23 which the law of his "members" (flesh) brings him into.

The “law of sin”, or as you put it “system of sin” in this verse is the demands of our own fleshly desires & affections against known law that bring us in opposition to God which separates us from Him.

The “law of sin” includes the inability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM.
Remember this, for it is important to remember!

C
ceedub

AbideinHim wrote:
Brothers, There is much confusion concerning sin and the sin nature within a Christian.

Yes I agree so that why I stared the post to help guys like you, here is a sermon from Spurgeon hope it helps you with your confusion.

I have a challenge for you I ask that you would seek God in what I am posting rather than regurgitate what you have been taught. You'll be susprised of the answer he will give you.

Delivered on Sabbath Morning, June 1, 1856, by the REV. C. H. Spurgeon.

"Then Job answered the Lord and said, Behold, I am vile."—Job 40:3-4.

I'm curious if Logic or Trufaithsav ever responded in substance to this sermon? This was a great read by the way.

L
Logic

ceedub wrote:
AbideinHim wrote:
Brothers, There is much confusion concerning sin and the sin nature within a Christian.
murrcolr wrote:
Yes I agree so that why I stared the post to help guys like you, here is a sermon from Spurgeon hope it helps you with your confusion.

I have a challenge for you I ask that you would seek God in what I am posting rather than regurgitate what you have been taught. You'll be surprised of the answer he will give you.

Delivered on Sabbath Morning, June 1, 1856, by the REV. C. H. Spurgeon.

"Then Job answered the Lord and said, Behold, I am vile."—Job 40:3-4.

The FACT, the great and terrible fact, that EVEN THE RIGHTEOUS HAVE IN THEM EVIL NATURES. Job said, "Behold, I am vile." He did not always know it.

I'm curious if Logic or Trufaithsav ever responded in substance to this sermon? This was a great read by the way.
Job wasn't saying that he was "vile" as being wretchedly bad, repulsive or disgusting, morally debased, depraved, or despicable, foul or filthy.

He wasn't claiming that he had an "evil nature"

Job was responding to God about chapters 38-39. Which God is asking, V:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?"
V:12 "Have you commanded the morning since your days began; and caused the dawn to know its place."
V:19-20 "Where is the way where light dwells? And as for darkness, where is its place, that you should take it to its domain, and that you should know the paths to its home?"

This is not showing the moral make up (inbred sin) of Job for him to respond, "I am a wretch"

But Job's responded as saying that he is so very unwise and small in understanding & knowledge in comparison to God and His wisdom, understanding & knowledge.

Job said, "I am vile"
IOW:
"I am small, abated, very little in understanding, wisdom & knowledg in comparison to your wisdom, understanding & knowledge Oh great God."

Again, I repeat:
It is evidently that you are confusing the flesh to be something as "inbred sin". This is wrong because you making sin something which it is not

Sin is either a verb or attitude of the heart which we, by our own personal choice are guilty of.

Sin is always to be guilty of & always able to be repented of.
[b]IF[/b] sin is "inbred", then it can not be a fault which anyone is guilty of, nor can it be repented of.
This means the so called "inbred sin" is not really sin but a flaw of creation; we are victims of "inbred sin" and not really criminals.

We must understand about the flesh that it is still "good" as God called it in the beginning; which means "useful or serving its purpose, good for which it is created to do."

The flesh will give pleasure because of the senses. The flesh is amoral; it takes pleasure in what ever & however, good or bad, morally or immorally for it has no mind to discern. This is unchangeable, it will remain the same even after we are saved; the flesh needs to be done away with. That will happen in the resurrection.

Furthermore, the term "inbred" means to have by birth, however, sin can not be inherited. It is not anything in the blood or genetic like a disease & even hair or eye colored which is passed down from birth. Sin is not anything to be born with.

C
ceedub

So, Job's only problem is that he isn't smart enough before God. The flesh is 'amoral'. Spurgeon is dead wrong entirely.

That would mean that when Isaiah and Peter were undone in the Lord's presence it was because they weren't as smart as God as well?

Maybe John was misguided in his gnostic theme in his epistles?


Do no little red flags ever wave in your mind? No little sirens going off that maybe it's you that has confused this issue and not the rest of Christianity?

I agree that sometimes the masses can get it wrong, but honestly, do you ever entertain the least notion that you might be wrong?

And also, did you honestly read Spurgeon's message as you were asked?

L
Logic

ceedub wrote:
So, Job's only problem is that he isn't smart enough before God.
Smart enough?
Now your just complaining about my response with out any good rebuttal.

The flesh is 'amoral'.
Yes, can you prove otherwise?
Saying that the flesh is evil is Platonism.


Spurgeon is dead wrong entirely.
Spurgeon said:
Now, I hold that there is in every Christian two natures, as distinct as were the two natures of the God-Man Christ Jesus. There is one nature which cannot sin, because it is born of God—a spiritual nature, coming directly from heaven, as pure and as perfect as God himself, who is the author of it; and there is also in man that ancient nature which, by the fall of Adam, hath become altogether vile, corrupt, sinful, and devilish. There remains in the heart of the Christian a nature which cannot do that which is right, any more than it could before regeneration, and which is as evil as it was before the new birth—as sinful, as altogether hostile to God's laws, as ever it was
This is a form of Gnosticism; that man is dualistic in nature.

Dualism goes back to *Platonism and Neo-Platonism which developed and spread the idea of an opposition between spirit and matter, spirit being the higher, purer, and eternal principle, whereas matter was the lower and imperfect form of being, subject to change and corruption. ([url=http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0006_0_05429.html]Source[/url])


That would mean that when Isaiah and Peter were undone in the Lord's presence it was because they weren't as smart as God as well?
Peter was not even saved yet when he said, "Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord."
He was a sinful man as unsaved people are.

As for Isaiah, Why do you think that God has a live coal touch his lips had to take away his iniquity and his sin be purged?
Because it hadn't yet to the knowledge of Isaiah, otherwise this would have been superfluous and not needed.
If so, Isaiah would have had confidence before the Lord. (Heb 9:14 & 10:22)

Maybe John was misguided in his Gnostic theme in his epistles?
Why say that?

Do no little red flags ever wave in your mind? No little sirens going off that maybe it's you that has confused this issue and not the rest of Christianity?
It's not the "rest of Christianity", but those who hold to the fiction of a sin nature.
The sin nature theory criminalizes God.
God is the one who gives man his nature.

Your claiming that God gives mankind a nature which He hates and causes mankind to sin against Him.
The "sin nature" makes mankind not to be culpable for his own sins because he was born unable to not sin.

Our nature comes from what we are, which is human; we have a human nature (not a "sin nature"); and that is to mature and to bear fruit.

Our fruit, weather sin or righteousness comes from what we love or what we put our affections on.

I agree that sometimes the masses can get it wrong, but honestly, do you ever entertain the least notion that you might be wrong?
I did when I first started to think this way.
But as I prayed & studied more, I was being persuaded more that "original sin" & "sin nature" is wrong.

You should listen to [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=1973]Paris Reidhead - The Hidden Things Of God Part 1[/url]

And also, did you honestly read Spurgeon's message as you were asked?
Yes.
Spurgeon said:
The FACT, the great and terrible fact, that EVEN THE RIGHTEOUS HAVE IN THEM EVIL NATURES.
Dualism Good vs. bad

R
roaringlamb

This is a form of Gnosticism; that man is dualistic in nature.

Uhhh, the Bible teaches that man is dual natured-

"then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature." Genesis 2:7

I'm pretty sure that Adam had flesh, and he was made spiritual by God's breathing into him.

So away with your fancy -isms and other nonsense and just stick to what the Bible says! Plato had no influence over the duality of man in the Bible.

You guys make me laugh, you'll strain at a gnat to make a point but then choke on the camel that is truth.

Like I asked Jesse before, why don't you and he go and stroke each others' egos in your own little "sinless" forum, so we who know and TRULY love what Christ has done for us can rejoice together.

BTW, I'd like to know what you do with the passages that say that God "repented" if repenting means turning away from sin???

EDIT: This will be my one post in this topic as well as truefaith and logic are not interested in learning, only contending for heretical views(proven both in the history of the Church and by the Scriptures themselves).

L
Logic

roaringlamb wrote:
This is a form of Gnosticism; that man is dualistic in nature.
Uhhh, the Bible teaches that man is dual natured-

"then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature." Genesis 2:7

I'm pretty sure that Adam had flesh, and he was made spiritual by God's breathing into him.

So away with your fancy -isms and other nonsense and just stick to what the Bible says! Plato had no influence over the duality of man in the Bible.

Man has soul, spirit & flesh, but none of them are at conflict with each other.
We are not "dualistic" in the sense of the "dualism" theory (& you) claim.

BTW, I'd like to know what you do with the passages that say that God "repented" if repenting means turning away from sin???
God turned away from doing that which he was going to do.
God changed His mind.
Jeremaih 18:8 I [God] will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jeremaih 26:3 That I [God] may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them.

Jeremiah 26:13 The Lord will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

Jeremiah 26:19 The Lord repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them.

Jeremaih 42:10 For I [God] repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.

Jonah 3:10 God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them.

M
murrcolr

ceedub wrote:
So, Job's only problem is that he isn't smart enough before God.
Smart enough?

Logic wrote:
Now your just complaining about my response with out any good rebuttal.

I don't think he is complaining just pointing out that Jobs issues where much more than he was not smart enough.

If you go on further in the book of job you'll see that Job says Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seethe thee.

Matt 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart for the shall see God.

Before this meeting with God Jobs heart was not pure as he declares ("I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear") this was in spite of what God said about him earlier "perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil" Job1:1

So clearly there can be an area in your life that can still be un-purified yet still be declared by God "perfect and upright"

We know because of scripture that only the pure in heart shall see God so the area that can be un-purified is the heart.

So Jobs problem was more than not being clever enough it was that his heart was un-purified.

Daulism---The bible tells us we are made up of Spirit, Soul and Body. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 with this verse alone Dualism is declared null and void. Our bodies are the Temple of God and contains three parts just like the temple that was in Jerusalem Holy of Holies, Holy Place and Outer Court.

So it is clear I am focusing here on the Soul not the body or the Spirit. The soul is made up of your mind, will and emotions.

So Mr Smith believes on the Jesus what happens where does the Spirit of God take up residence, in the Spirit of course the Holy of Holies.

Has Mr Smith mind, will and emotions been renewed at that point. No of course not he is a babe in Christ.

Paul describes Babes in Christ as carnal 1 Cor 3:1 he tells us that because you are carnal you are under sin

Roms 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

He then goes onto say in Roms 7:15 that in this condition "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I" He is describing that there is something causing him to do the things he does not want to do.

Paul comes to the conclusion that there is still sin in him that is causing him to do the things he would not do. Roms 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Paul goes on further to say Roms 7:21 "evil is present with me" he delights in the law in the inner man (Spirit--Holy of Holies) "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, (the soul) and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" Roms 7:23

I don't know how more black and white it can be [b]The law of sin in my memebers[/b] what I called it earlier in my post was a system of sin.

How does Mr Smith get this system removed (the old man)?

Eph 4:22-24 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;(soul) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Roms 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Roms 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the (body of sin)* might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

*Note The body of Sin is not an action but the old man who needs to die.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

What is Christ baptism is it water baptism? Have a read of what John said.

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Jesus makes a difference between John Baptism (water) and the one they will receive in a few days time.

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Christ baptism is with the Holy Ghost this baptism and only this baptism deals with the old man where he is put to death and you put on the new man who is Christ. This baptism is the one that cleanses the heart.

Acts 15:8-9 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Peter here lets us know that the Holy Ghost purifies the heart this done when the old man is crucified with Christ.

So at conversion the old man is not dealt with, this comes later when you receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Know please don’t read this and think “oh I speak in tongues that means I have been baptized into Christ the old man is dead and I have put on the new man”. What Peter says in Acts 15 8-9 should be standard you should apply to yourself. The question you should ask yourself “Is my heart pure” if the answer is no then you have not been baptized into Christ and the old man is still alive and well and you will be able to identify with Roms 7.

L
Logic

murrcolr wrote:
ceedub wrote:
So, Job's only problem is that he isn't smart enough before God.
Logic wrote:
Smart enough?
Now you're just complaining about my response with out any good rebuttal.
I don't think he is complaining just pointing out that Jobs issues where much more than he was not smart enough.
Yes he was.
It's not about being "smart enough", but speaking of what one does have full understanding or wisdom of.
Smart pertains to knowledge, Job is pertaining to wisdom and understanding, there is a BIG difference.

If you go on further in the book of job you'll see that Job says Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seethe thee.
In that verse, Hearing and seeing are an antithesis.
[b]Job 42:5[/b] [color=660000]I have (only) heard of you by the hearing of the ear: but now my eye sees you[/color]
IOW, "Before, I have only heard of You by tradition, or known of You by imperfect sources, but, I now have such a revelation of You (God) as I have never had before."

Job did not know God as he does now.
Job was only speaking from the knowledge of which he possessed before this encounter. This is not sinful. It would only be sinful if he knew better than what he spoke.

Sin is always intentional, therefore Job was blameless, and still is.

[b]Job 42:6[/b] [color=660000]Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.[/color]
Since Job was innocent when he spoke from only the knowledge which he had before this revelation, the knowledge of what he now learns does not become held against him.
However, when he learns the truth of God in a brighter light, his repentance is only implying that he will not say what he had before, knowing what he knows now.

[b]Job 42:7[/b] [color=660000]After the Lord had spoken these words to Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite: “My anger burns against you and against your two friends, for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.[/color]
If Job did sin, The Lords anger would also burn against him also.
However, God claimed that Job has spoken of Him what is right, as his friends didn't.

[b]Matt 5:8[/b] [color=660000]Blessed are the pure in heart for the shall see God.[/color]

Before this meeting with God Jobs heart was not pure as he declares ("I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear") this was in spite of what God said about him earlier "[color=660000]perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil[/color]" [b]Job1:1[/b]

It was pure, otherwise God wouldn't have said that he was perfect and upright.
With out a pure heart, one can not be perfect and upright.

So clearly there can be an area in your life that can still be un-purified yet still be declared by God "perfect and upright"
How so?

If you let an area of your life be against God, How will God over look that and call you "perfect and upright"?

We know because of scripture that only the pure in heart shall see God so the area that can be un-purified is the heart.
You still can't be called "perfect and upright"; especially by God, if you let an "area" of your life/heart be impure.

We are to guard our hearts:
[b]Pro 4:23[/b] [color=660000]Keep your heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.[/color]

So Jobs problem was more than not being clever enough it was that his heart was un-purified.
Again, it's not about being "smart" or "clever", but speaking of what one does have full understanding or wisdom of.

Dualism---The bible tells us we are made up of Spirit, Soul and Body. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 with this verse alone Dualism is declared null and void. Our bodies are the Temple of God and contains three parts just like the temple that was in Jerusalem Holy of Holies, Holy Place and Outer Court.
It is null and void, but your still using Dualistic theology; claiming that there is a battle of good vs. evil with in man.

So, you are contradicting yourself by having the "sin nature" theology and discounting Dualism.

So it is clear I am focusing here on the Soul not the body or the Spirit. The soul is made up of your mind, will and emotions.

So Mr. Smith believes on the Jesus what happens where does the Spirit of God take up residence, in the Spirit of course the Holy of Holies.

Huh?

Has Mr. Smith mind, will and emotions been renewed at that point. No of course not he is a babe in Christ.
It doesn't matter how "old" one is in the Lord.

One may be "renewed" in his mind right after conversion.
[b]Rom 12:2[/b] [color=660000]And be not conformed to this world: but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.[/color]

One may ever discard his views which he held and adopt new ones immediately after conversion.
[b]2Corinth 10:5[/b] [color=660000]Casting down arguments, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;[/color]

Paul describes Babes in Christ as carnal 1 Cor 3:1 he tells us that because you are carnal you are under sin
Carnal Christian are not because they are yet babes in Christ, but the other way around.
They are STILL babes because they are carnal.
Their carnality stunts their growth.

Carnality is a choice, not an "age of spiritual growth.

Roms 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
This is concerning a pre-salvation experience.
[b]IOW:[/b]
[b]Roms 7:14[/b] For we know that the requirements are spiritual, but I am soulish, living after the flesh, having sold myself into slavery to my own unlawful affections.
Romans 6:16-20, Galatians 5:17b
Paul actually sold himself into slavery.
This verse is key to understand the following verses)

He then goes onto say in Roms 7:15 that in this condition "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I" He is describing that there is something causing him to do the things he does not want to do.
Yes, his will has not been conformed to God's.
He is still unsaved.
That which is "causing" him to do the things he does not want to do is choosing to satisfy his appetites toward his affections which are still towards the unlawful.

Paul comes to the conclusion that there is still sin in him that is causing him to do the things he would not do. Roms 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
The so called "sin" is the fleshly desires which are contrary to what is right.
That "sin which dwells in me" are the unlawful desires of my flesh.

We can not help what our flesh will take pleasure in.
I may take pleasure in an unlawful thing, but that fact is not sin or sinful.
However, if I actually do the unlawful act which I would take pleasure in is a sin, or is sinful.

[b]Example:[/b]
Flesh will take pleasure in sex, out side of marriage or in marriage; it doesn't matter, sex is pleasureful.
It is up to us to satisfy our appetites lawfully, we must take pleasure in lawful things.

Paul goes on further to say Roms 7:21 "evil is present with me" he delights in the law in the inner man (Spirit--Holy of Holies) "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, (the soul) and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" Roms 7:23
[b]Rom 7:21[/b] [color=660000]I find then a standard, that when I desire to do good, corruption[/color] (weakness & inability of the flesh) [color=660000]is right there with me.[/color]
Galatians 5:17b
The "evil" is not "[b]in[/b]" him, but "[b]with[/b]" him as being the flesh (the fleshly unlawful desires are that "evil" or "corruption")

I don't know how more black and white it can be [b]The law of sin in my members[/b] what I called it earlier in my post was a system of sin.
I explained what that "system of sin" is.
Did you read it?

The “law of sin” (system of sin) in this verse is the demands of our own fleshly desires & affections against known law that bring us in opposition to God which separates us from Him.
The "law of sin" (system of sin) includes the inability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM.
Remember this, for it is important to remember!

This concludes that which is in our “members” (v.23) are the unlawful affections &/or desires which brings about spiritual death.

How does Mr. Smith get this system removed (the old man)?
By nullifying, crucifying the flesh (Choosing to), so that we no longer serve those passions.
This is a willful, intentional thing on our part, [b]we must be obedient[/b].

Eph 4:22-24 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;(soul) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Roms 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the (body of sin)* might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

*Note The body of Sin is not an action but the old man who needs to die.

(Colos 3:9) The term "old man" (Rom 6:6) makes for a word play of "body of sin".
The "old man" would be the person that Paul was before salvation.
Our old man (or who we were before we were saved) is the one that chose to walk after the flesh in regards to our former behavior (Eph 4:22), having been corrupted according to the deceitful lusts.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

What is Christ baptism is it water baptism? Have a read of what John said.

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Jesus makes a difference between John Baptism (water) and the one they will receive in a few days time.

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Christ baptism is with the Holy Ghost this baptism and only this baptism deals with the old man where he is put to death and you put on the new man who is Christ. This baptism is the one that cleanses the heart.

Acts 15:8-9 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Peter here lets us know that the Holy Ghost purifies the heart this done when the old man is crucified with Christ.

When we acknowledge our place in His death we may also acknowledge our place in resurrection (Rom 6:3-6), only then can we be redeemed & cleansed with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot (1Peter 1:19, Titus 2:14) and freed from being under the law (Romans 6:14 & 7:4) as being under grace instead (Romans 6:14): acknowledging that He is representing us on that cross and we die through Christ and rise in newness of life(Romans 6:4 &11).

We acknowledge this by [color=660000]baptism, which symbolizes our death and resurrection in Christ, not by the removing of outward filth of the flesh but by providing us with a good and clear conscience[/color] (inward cleanness and peace) [color=660000]before God through the[/color] [death and] [color=660000]resurrection of Jesus Christ[/color] [b]1Peter 3:21[/b].


So at conversion the old man is not dealt with, this comes later when you receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
All men receive the Holy Ghost at conversion, for He is the seal of our salvation.
The old man MUST be dealt with at conversion, otherwise you are not proving your faith with works.

If your old man is nor "put off" at conversion, your faith is dead; for faith with out works is dead.

L
Leo_Grace

Dear Brothers and Sisters, this will be my last post in this thread. It is not profitable to argue with those who post for argument's sake, and not for the edification of others. However, I felt it necessary to point out some gross falsehood being taught here by some, lest others make the mistake of believing them:

The apostle Paul said:

[i]Ro 7:17-18 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is [b][u]sin[/u] living in me[/b]. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in [b]my [u]sinful[/u] nature[/b]. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.[/i]

When murrcolr pointed out that Paul called this sin, Logic said:

The so called "sin" is the fleshly desires which are contrary to what is right. That "sin which dwells in me" are the unlawful desires of my flesh. We can not help what our flesh will take pleasure in. [b]I may take pleasure in an unlawful thing, but that fact is [u]not sin or sinful[/u][/b]. However, if I actually do the unlawful act which I would take pleasure in is a sin, or is sinful.

So now, Logic feels he is qualified to correct the apostle Paul and the Bible, that what they called sin is actually not sin according to Logic. He claims, on his own authority, that sinful thoughts are not sin and he is saying that Paul and the Bible are wrong.

Who are we to believe? Is Christ not the "Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us"? Isn't the Bible the inerrant word of truth?

It was the Lord Jesus himself who taught us:

[i]Mt 15:19-20 [color=CC3300][b]For out of the heart come evil thoughts[/b], murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. [b]These are what make a man ‘unclean’[/b]; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’ ”[/i][/color]

Trust in the Word of Truth; Jesus Christ is the Truth. Do not trust in the deceitful arguments, reasonings, and logic of mere men.

E
Earendel

Was Adam sinful before he fatally yielded to his temptation? Did Adam have a sinful nature before he yielded to his temptation?

No tempter = no sin.

...The sinful nature of man, what is it?

Please consider 1 Corinthians 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful,

who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


...But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
James 1:14

…but how do desires get corrupted?


Desires get corrupted early in life, before one becomes transformed into the image of Christ, before one is born again by the Spirit of God.


I believe the origin of temptation comes from satan/demons (which began at Garden of Eden). I also believe that they can only tempt through the veil of our flesh by warring with the mind.


So, what is the sinful nature?


These satans/demons absolutely know the will of God, and before a person becomes a believer, they draw people to sin against the will of God starting very early in life...through the flesh by warring with the mind of the individual...by bringing a man into captivity to the desires and lusts of the flesh, before the mind has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit.


They war against all believers in this way - through the veil of the flesh that we are housed in. These demons start their work early in a person's life, before they come to Christ and try and form a person into their very own image...and this is their war with and against the God of heaven, our Creator who is forever blessed - Amen.


Therefore it is written to us who are to be the heirs of salvation:


Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,(consider Hebrews 12:4) but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Ephesians 6:11-13

We also must be aware/mindful of where and what these demons/satans will tempt us (target our minds), so that we may not be ignorant of their devices and be able to fight the good fight of faith. They primarily target and draw a person to these:


Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21 James 4:7


Further it is written, that we are to be on the look out for this:


Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 1 Peter 5:8

Now here is a very interesting point to make, and is necessary to understand..

If satan/demons were bound hand and foot and removed from influencing us (we who are the Bride) in our earthly lives, would there be any temptation to sin? – I would say probably not...NO TEMPTER = NO SIN (think about that one)...but the mind still has to be renewed after Christ nonetheless. Again, did Adam have a sinful nature before he sinned? But Adam's yielding to his temptation gave satan license over the entire race of man.


I have always believed that satan/demons need to get permission from God first before they can tempt, fight against or even harass a saint to sin. Here is why I believe this: (I am reminded of the story of Job, how that satan had to get permission first, and he did this by accusing Job before God - Job 1:6-12 )...he does this to us, the heirs of salvation by accusing us constantly day and night before God, even as it written. Wherefore we are admonished by the Lord Jesus Himself to pray to our Father in heaven “Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil” That is to say Dear Father, please don’t listen to the evil accusers, who stand before you day and night accusing me, but deliver me from them and don’t let them draw me away from you.


So what happens when satan no longer gets to accuse us day and night before God? What happens?


...so if he can no longer accuse us day and night before God, and he doesn't get permission to tempt us to any kind of sin, or to spiritually harass etc. what do you think will happen on the earth when the work of the Holy Spirit is unfettered from satanic hindrances in our lives?
GLOBAL REVIVAL, that’s what!!! (the number which no man could number?)...After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, ...Revelation 7:9


This will happen on Earth, and is why I believe that a "Great Revival" is coming to the earth, but during the "Great Tribulation"

- Ephesians 6:12 will end for us who are the body of Christ… it will end for us…and here’s why:

And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. Rev 12:7-10

(Meaning satan does not get permission to accuse/tempt/harass anymore) Ephesians 6:12 which says: For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[a] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

They (devils) will no longer be in heavenly places; therefore, Ephesians 6:12 ends for us who are the body of Christ!!!! [b]And this is why[/b] it is written: “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come!!


Okay, I know...big emphasis is mine, but No accuser standing before God day and night accusing us before God means no permission to tempt a saint to sin, or to spiritually fight against, or harass a saint in there work, which means there will be a global revival on the earth unfettered from any satanic hindrances!!!

There will be no more wrestling in the spirit with satan and his demons in high places…their day will finally be at an end!!!

Then there will be a revival on the Earth such as never occurred before unto this time, as the Bride of the Lamb will finally be able to get herself ready.


Consider the voice of the holy angel, what he said, when satan is cast out (At no other time since creation is this said.):

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

Notice the angel says, now...not before, during the time of the early church did he say this, [b]nor at any other time[/b], but during the Tribulation only - [u]after[/u] the war in heaven between Michael and his angels, and satan and his angels.

What this means is the Bride of the Lamb will finally be able to get herself ready without any spiritual hindrance, without any temptation to sin of any kind, without any accuser standing before God - she will get her wedding garments ready and be holy, and without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, she will have righteous works - even as it is written that she should.

L
Logic

Leo_Grace wrote:
Dear Brothers and Sisters, this will be my last post in this thread. It is not profitable to argue with those who post for argument's sake, and not for the edification of others. However, I felt it necessary to point out some gross falsehood being taught here by some, lest others make the mistake of believing them:

The apostle Paul said:
[i]Ro 7:17-18 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is [b][u]sin[/u] living in me[/b]. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in [b]my [u]sinful[/u] nature[/b]. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.[/i]

When murrcolr pointed out that Paul called this sin, Logic said:

The so called "sin" is the fleshly desires which are contrary to what is right. That "sin which dwells in me" are the unlawful desires of my flesh. We can not help what our flesh will take pleasure in. [b]I may take pleasure in an unlawful thing, but that fact is [u]not sin or sinful[/u][/b]. However, if I actually do the unlawful act which I would take pleasure in is a sin, or is sinful.

So now, Logic feels he is qualified to correct the apostle Paul and the Bible, that what they called sin is actually not sin according to Logic. He claims, on his own authority, that sinful thoughts are not sin and he is saying that Paul and the Bible are wrong.
I'm not "correcting the apostle Paul and the Bible", but your understanding of it.
Shhees.
Who in their right mind would think to do such as you accuse me of there?

I'd like to point out that Leo_Grace used a translation which uses his bias of the so called "sin nature"

The word is [b]FLESH[/b], not sinful nature.
The flesh is still "Good" as God called it in the beginning.
You're claiming that it is not.

No one can refute my point:
The so called "sin" in Roms 7:17 is the fleshly desires which are contrary to what is right.

Paul is personifying sin. Sin can not "do" anything as Paul is saying in Rom 7:17.

Sin can not be "in" anyone.
Sin can not "do that which I would not" (Rom 7:16) which Paul blames on sin in Rom 7:17.

Paul goes on to explain that it is His flehs in Verse 18
[color=660000]For I know that in me (that is, [b]in my flesh[/b]) dwells no good thing:[/color]

The flesh was never meant to be used as strength for resisting sin. It is one of the very reasons that Adam fell, lust of the flesh...

Paul clames that he is willing to do good in verse 18 (willing to have the right affections), but, he doesn 't know how to do it: [color=660000]but how to perform that which is good I find not.

One MUST understand that Paul is portraying a pre-salvation experience in order to understand Romans 7.
Otherwise your going into stuff like Gnostisism/Manichaeism Neo-Platonism, Dualism, Good vs evil, flesh is bad...ect...

[b]Col 2:21[/b] [color=660000]Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch,
[b]:22[/b] which things are all for corruption in the using, according to the "injunctions and teachings of men." Isa. 29:13
[b]:23[/b] Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in self-imposed worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; But not one of them is of any value in combating the indulgence of the flesh.[color]

Pail does not have anything else to put his affection on in order for him to stop sinning, except for the ones he has already grown accustom to (the sinful ones). What will he satisfy his god given appetites on?
He doesn’t have any alternative pleasure other than that which he has been taking pleasure in for him to stop.

The law telling him that he must stop is not enough. His desires must change from his own, to that of God's.

The law is not enough for one to stop sinning; it only tells you that you should stop and not how you should (The will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not Romans 7:18).

Who are we to believe? Is Christ not the "Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us"? Isn't the Bible the inerrant word of truth?
What are we to believe, that God gave us a nature which He hates, which makes us sin against Him?
And to blame this on Adam has no scriptural back up.

It is not our nature which is sinful, but our desires and how we satisfy our appetites.
We have nothing to blame but ourselves, not our nature.

The reason why we choose to sin is not out nature, but our own fault; to blame our nature is to blame God, for He gave us all our nature.

L
Logic


Earendel wrote:
Was Adam sinful before he fatally yielded to his temptation? Did Adam have a sinful nature before he yielded to his temptation?

No tempter = no sin.

The reason of Adams fall is that he gave into his flesh’s unlawful affection:
[b]1John 2:16[/b] [color=660000]For all that is in the world,[/color]
[b]1:[/b] [color=660000]the lust of the flesh[/color]
[b]2:[/b] [color=660000]the lust of the eyes[/color]
[b]3:[/b] [color=660000]the pride of life,
is not of the Father, but is of the world.[/color]
[b]Gen 3:6[/b] [color=660000]And when the woman saw that the tree was[/color]
[b]1:[/b] [color=660000]good for food,
and that it was[/color]
[b]2:[/b] [color=660000]pleasant to the eyes.
and a tree to be[/color]
[b]3:[/b] [color=660000]desired to make one wise
she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.[/color]

I would go so far as to say that they had iniquity in their hearts before the actually sinned.

but how do desires get corrupted?
Desires get corrupted early in life, before one becomes transformed into the image of Christ, before one is born again by the Spirit of God.
The explanation becomes clear if we carefully consider the development of a man. As a baby enters the world the natural, inherited appetites are already developed and the child's natural love of conscious freedom begins to express itself.

These appetites are not bad or wrong in & of themselves, in fact, appetite is good unless it's used wrongly &/or not kept in check. A person’s will begin to form the habit of obeying desire, which is the appetite, which deepens & strengthens as time passes. The danger comes when the appetites becomes toward unlawful things to be satisfied.
The sin is only realized when it is known to be wrong and willfully chosen to be continued in the knowledge of being wrong, thus becoming accountable.
Paul even said that he had not known sin, but by the law (Romans 7:7)

The feelings &/or emotions develop long before the rational becomes fully developed, the feelings &/or emotions are deeply entrenched in the child's personality before conviction and understanding of the things of God.

Since the feelings develop before the rational and conscience, one may begin to form the bad habit of obeying desire rather than what is right, this bad habit may deepen & strengthen even time passes. The obvious consequence is that self indulgence may become the master principle in the soul of the child long before it can understand that this self-indulgence will interfere with the obedience to God &/or conscience. This is why the parents must keep the child in discipline. Since the child is only accountable to its parents and not yet to God, this is the only time when the child can learn by it's failings; which is a great part of learning.

However, feelings are not sinful in & of themselves; no one can help what they feel. If they are not kept in check by the parents, the infant will not learn how to control them.
Sin comes when feelings rule &/or be the judge, also when the feelings are doing the controlling & not being controlled.
All mature people are able to control their feelings when they come, but innocent infants can not control their feelings because of immaturity &/or lack of development.
When they are able to control their feelings and do not, sin is right at the door.
If they cripple them self by not refusing to learning how to control their feeling and thus are unable to, they are still accountable for not learning, since they intentionally did not learn.
If or when parents cripple their children in this area, the parents are accountable and the children are only accountable to the degree of their own ability.

Finally, the moment of true moral responsibility arrives at the age of accountability.
The child is now old enough to understand wrong (Isaiah 7:16, Deut 1:39). This will probably be earlier in a Christian home than in a non-Christian one. Does the child approach this test in a perfectly neutral state?
If Adam, in the maturity of his reason, with full consciousness of the morality of his actions could give in to such temptation, it is still possible that a child will not because sin is always a choice. However, the moment that child chooses selfishly, it sins. From this point on (and NOT before) God holds the child responsible for its own actions and destiny. It is significant that all words of the Lord to sinners begin FROM THEIR YOUTH, and NOT from birth, as some have supposed.
(WINKIE PRATNEY)

If satan/demons were bound hand and foot and removed from influencing us (we who are the Bride) in our earthly lives, would there be any temptation to sin? – I would say probably not...NO TEMPTER = NO SIN (think about that one)
Explain the rebellion after the 100 year reign of Christ when satanis bound anf thrown into the botttomless pit and removed from influencing us.

How would Satan have so many people to follow him if it were only him & his demons?

Again, did Adam have a sinful nature before he sinned? But Adam's yielding to his temptation gave Satan license over the entire race of man.
No, each individual gives him license when they yield to him.

E
Earendel

Logic wrote:
Quote:
[i]The reason of Adams fall is that he gave into his flesh’s unlawful affection: 1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, 1: the lust of the flesh 2: the lust of the eyes 3: the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was 1: good for food, and that it was 2: pleasant to the eyes. and a tree to be 3: desired to make one wise she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. I would go so far as to say that they had iniquity in their hearts before the actually sinned.[/i]

This does not answer if Adam would have sinned without a tempter.

No tempter = no sin.

And you cannot prove sin in Adam before the temptation to it. Saying that Adam had sin in his heart before the temptation to it has no biblical foundation at all. Show me in the bible where it says that Adam was sinful in his heart before the temptation to it.

Logic wrote:
Quote:

[i]Explain the rebellion after the 100 year reign of Christ when satanis bound anf thrown into the botttomless pit and removed from influencing us. How would Satan have so many people to follow him if it were only him & his demons?[/i]

I assume you meant 1000 year reign. The rebellion does not occur with the resurrected saints (those who were part of the first resurrection, but with people that will be the descendants of those who survived from the nations after the great tribulation. After the 1000 year reign satan is let loose on the Earth again (no longer bound).

The rest of your reply is just verbose opinion with no scriptural merit.

L
Logic

Earendel wrote:
Logic wrote:

The reason of Adams fall is that he gave into his flesh’s unlawful affection: 1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, 1: the lust of the flesh 2: the lust of the eyes 3: the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was 1: good for food, and that it was 2: pleasant to the eyes. and a tree to be 3: desired to make one wise
she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
I would go so far as to say that they had iniquity in their hearts before the actually sinned.

This does not answer if Adam would have sinned without a tempter.

No tempter = no sin.

And you cannot prove sin in Adam before the temptation to it. Saying that Adam had sin in his heart before the temptation to it has no biblical foundation at all.

Satan can only tempt you of that which you already have a longing for.

No one can be tempted of what they don't want.

Vanilla Ice cream is yummy, but I don't want any now, so I can't be tempted with it.

When some one is full of food, even the most delicious food will not tempt them.

Show me in the bible where it says that Adam was sinful in his heart before the temptation to it.
I already did.
Adam & Eve had the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life.

Logic wrote:

Explain the rebellion after the 100 year reign of Christ when Satan is bound and thrown into the bottomless pit and removed from influencing us. How would Satan have so many people to follow him if it were only him & his demons?

I assume you meant 1000 year reign.
Yep, sorry. Multiply it by 10.

The rebellion does not occur with the resurrected saints (those who were part of the first resurrection, but with people that will be the descendants of those who survived from the nations after the great tribulation. After the 1000 year reign Satan is let loose on the Earth again (no longer bound).
Yes, but the others had no tempter to want a rebellion.
Satan just comes in with a proposition which they were wanting all along.

The fact that they will rebel proves that a tempter is not needed. Satan only came as a leader.

The rest of your reply is just verbose opinion with no scriptural merit.
It's not verbose, it's a good explanation as to why Desires get corrupted early in life.

The simple explanation is that desires do not get corrupt, because desire is good.

We just put our affections on the wrong things.

M
murrcolr


Logic wrote:

With out a pure heart, one can not be perfect and upright.

Murrcolr said:

So clearly there can be an area in your life that can still be un-purified yet still be declared by God "perfect and upright"

How so?

Come on Logic this is very basic stuff

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Justification and righteousness are predominantly legal terms in both the Old and New Testaments. Though it’s quite right to see righteousness, on occasions, as being a virtue, it’s usually evident that it’s to be understood in a legal setting. Justification means to get the decision in a court of law, to achieve ‘rightstanding’ in its eyes, to be declared ‘not guilty’ when all has been said and done and all the evidence carefully weighed.

Job was perfect and upright because he believed in God.

While it is true that the justified man will be deeply concerned with holy living, it is also true that justification is not simply another name for his holy life. It refers to his standing before God, to God’s acceptance of him.

Sanctification: The act of making holy; the state of being sanctified or made holy.

Theologically - The act of God's grace by which the affections of men are purified or alienated from sin and the world, and exalted to a supreme love of God. Also the state of being thus purified or sanctified." - Webster's Dictionary.

Justification delivers from guilt and condemnation---- Sanctification delivers from unholy tempers and abnormal appetites

Justification restores us to the favor of God which we had lost through our own disobedience--------- Sanctification restores us to holiness or the moral likeness of God, which we had lost through Adam's disobedience.

Job was perfect and upright but his heart was not pure, but God in his goodness did a deeper work and cleansed his heart that was why he declared “but know my eyes seeth thee” because his heart was cleansed by God.


murrcolr said:

Dualism---The bible tells us we are made up of Spirit, Soul and Body. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 with this verse alone Dualism is declared null and void. Our bodies are the Temple of God and contains three parts just like the temple that was in Jerusalem Holy of Holies, Holy Place and Outer Court.

It is null and void, but your still using Dualistic theology; claiming that there is a battle of good vs. evil with in man.

logic said:

So, you are contradicting yourself by having the "sin nature" theology and discounting Dualism.

No…….you think I am contradicting myself but all along through this thread you have totally misunderstood what I am putting across by thinking we are talking about evil in your flesh. So I am clear and it’s in black and white for you again. I am focusing on the soul, (heart) because Pro 4:23 keep your heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.

murrcolr said;

Paul describes Babes in Christ as carnal 1 Cor 3:1 he tells us that because you are carnal you are under sin

logic said:

Carnal Christian are not because they are yet babes in Christ, but the other way around. They are STILL babes because they are carnal.
Their carnality stunts their growth.

Carnality is a choice, not an "age of spiritual growth.

Sounds a bit like what came first the chicken or the egg but is carnality a choice?

Definition: - The state of being carnal; the indulgence of lust; grossness of mind.

Well the answer is no because you still have that carnal nature until you have been purified in the heart, sanctified and made holy and until you get the rid of the old man having a heart that’s cleansed you will be in the “state of being carnal”.

murrcolr said:

Roms 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Logic said

This is concerning a pre-salvation experience.

No it’s not so you are telling me that the unsaved delight in the law of God after the inward man, these chapters in Roms 6,7,8 have to do with sanctification through the baptism into Jesus Christ and his death so the old man is crucified with him.

The Pharisee’s (which Paul was once) you would think they would have loved the law in there inner being, but we find the opposite look at what Jesus says to them. Matt 5 7-8 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

That doesn’t sound like a heart that delights in the law of God does it. What the Pharisee's delighted in was the traditions of men.

Almost all proponents of these arguments defend their positions by explaining why the text does not really mean what it appears to mean, thereby granting that it doesn’t appear that Paul was speaking about his own struggle with sin after conversion.

Come on Logic go back to the time to the pre-salvation time in your life, did you delight in the law of God in your inward man. My own experience shows me that you fight and you fight real hard until God breaks through to your heart and softens it.

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