Was the Apostle Paul A Hypocrite?

Hey Jesse. Jesus is alive!

I understand the point you are trying to make here, but I would ask you to be more judicious in your choice of thread titles. The current one, though obviously rhetorical, demonstrates poor taste and lack of wisdom.

Our words are being weighed in eternity brethren. Let us not resort to flippancy at the expense of getting our point across.

"Be not many masters, knowing we shall receive the greater condemnation. For in may things we offend all" (James 3:1-2)

truefaithsav,

Now you are trying to put words in the mouth of the Apostle Paul. No one said that Paul was living a sinful life - he was following Christ to the best of his ability. But he was not without sin - and he would be the last person to claim that he was a sinless man. Unlike you - you seem to be holier than Paul.

Wesley remembered being impressed with the humble Moravians on a sailing ship who were willing to do the filthiest work, because as one elder said, "It does my prideful heart good."

One Puritan understood what Paul meant when he wrote the prayer "I need to repent of my repentance".

Paul's confession was not historical, heretical, or hypocritical...just honest to God about what still was possible in his own heart.

MC

truefaithsav wrote:
If Paul was, in his present conduct or character, the "chief of sinners" than Paul was more than a hypocrite, Paul would have been the chief of hypocrites.

But Paul said he was the chief of sinners, even though his present life was holy, because he was previously a blasphemer and a persecutor of the Church.

Paul did not say [u]I was[/u], he said [u]I am[/u]:

[i]1Ti 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners —of whom [b]I am[/b] the worst.[/i]

At the time that he said this, he considered himself a sinner. You accuse Paul of hypocrisy because he admitted his sinfulness? Well... either he was a hypocrite, or he was a true man of God and you are a false one. I think I'll side with Paul on this.

"Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of who I am chief" (1 Timothy 1:15, KJV)

If you regularly study the writings of the apostle Paul, you'll find him say some pretty amazing things. Here, like as many other times before, he does not disappoint. He says some things so bluntly and plainly, we think, "surely to God he doesn't really mean that." Often he makes these seemingly random, mother-load sized statements, and simply moves on without so much as offering a simple reflection on what he just said. Though sometimes such proves to be a source of frustration to the student of the Scriptures, in reality, I think I really like that. Instead of looking to dot every "i" and cross every "t," Paul sometimes simply spoke the word that was on his heart, and figured if you didn't understand it, that word would eventually do a work in your life, because that word was nothing other than the Lord's.

Here we have such a statement by Paul. After giving some practical pastoral exhortations to his fellow apostle Timothy, Paul recalls his life before he met the Lord. Specifically, he recalls how he acted out of ignorance and unbelief, and persecuted the Church of the living God. Paul then recalls how the Lord touched him and showed him mercy. Paul then goes onto say that the Lord came into this world to save sinners, of who he is chief.

Such a statement offends many. So much so that some preachers and commentators attempt to explain such a statement away as something Paul was simply saying about his past. And, contextually speaking, I can see how one might arrive at such a conclusion. But his statement about being the chief of sinners is not in the past tense. It is present. And this truth, unfortunately, has caused many preachers and commentators to draw unfortunate conclusions. Paul here, in his present tense confession, is not confessing to continually struggling with besetting sins in his life, or knowingly living with some skeletons in his closet.

Rather, I see it different. Paul's confession to being the chief of sinners is not simply a statement about his past, nor is he admitting to regularly sinning in his life. Rather, his confession to being the chief of sinners is made by a man whose eyes have seen the Lord, and based on this revelation, has come to understand that he is the greatest sinner he knows. Indeed, for anybody who has truly had a revelation of the holiness of God, one cannot help but see the monster they actually are.

They in fact, become the greatest sinner they know. This knowledge is not based on comparing one's personal sin record with the sin record of any other person. Rather, this knowledge comes from a personal and experiential knowledge of God, whereby when one gazes upon Him in his holiness, they cannot but help have an Isaiah 6 vision of God and cry out "Woe is me! I am undone!" When one truly sees the Lord high and lifted up, sitting upon His throne, one is not overly aware of who other men are in relation to God. One only sees God, and as a result of seeing God, they see themselves, and the ugly monster they really are.

Today I stood in Church and testified, I am the greatest sinner I know. Have I ever, or am I presently living in gross immorality? No, not at all. Even when I was unsaved, I still lived a relatively good and moral life. I have never killed anybody, done drugs, or slept around. Comparatively speaking, I can think of a lot of other people who have done far worse things than I have ever done. Yet even armed with this knowledge, when I stand before God, I see who the Lord is, and I see who I am and what I am capable of doing.

What I believe Paul ultimately wanted us to see in his statement, is what I have come to see of myself. I am utterly and entirely dependent upon the grace and mercy of God for my salvation. For apart from that precious grace and mercy, in and of myself, I have come to see the depths of my own personal depravity. I have come to see, like the apostle Paul, that I am the greatest sinner I know. Indeed, in me there is no good thing. Only rot and filth. But thank God, the Lord did come to save me, and as a result of His saving me, I can now be a demonstration of His perfect patience, and an example for others to see of God and His saving work. After all, if the Lord could save me, the greatest sinner I know, then He can surely save others.

Taken from: http://iamadisciple.blogspot.com/2009/08/greatest-sinner-i-know.html

truefaithsav,

Please stop deceiving yourself, because we will not be deceived by you. Look at the context and discern properly:

[i]1Ti 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service.
1Ti 1:13 Even though I [b]was[/b] once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I [b]was[/b] shown mercy because I [b]acted[/b] in ignorance and unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 The grace of our Lord [b]was[/b] poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners e —of whom [b]I am[/b] the worst.

Notice that in 1 Ti 1:13-14, Paul used the past tense, indicating that his life as a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man was in the past - before he was appointed by the Lord Jesus to his service. In fact, in verse 14 Paul, using the past tense, narrates how the grace, the love, and the faith that was in Christ Jesus was poured out on him at that time. The common thread of thought that started in verse 12 ends in verse 14, and an entirely new train of thought starts with verse 15. Otherwise, if these were still connected, Paul would have said "of whom I was the worst", to be consistent with the previous verses.

But he does not say "[b]I was[/b]" because in verse 15 he was no longer referring to his life before he met Christ. He said "[b]I am[/b]", and the meaning of that is abundantly clear to those who are willing to learn.

KingJimmy,

Rather, I see it different. Paul's confession to being the chief of sinners is not simply a statement about his past, nor is he admitting to regularly sinning in his life. Rather, his confession to being the chief of sinners is made by a man whose eyes have seen the Lord, and based on this revelation, has come to understand that he is the greatest sinner he knows. Indeed, for anybody who has truly had a revelation of the holiness of God, one cannot help but see the monster they actually are.

In these words, you have captured the essence of true repentance. Thank you.

Indeed, for anybody who has truly had a revelation of the holiness of God, one cannot help but see the monster they actually are.

This insight should be considered a pre-requisite for any person who feels called to offer spiritual oversight for others. Without this vital dissolusionment of self-righteousness, it is nigh impossible to preach the Gospel with urgency, and more likely that all we can offer is legalism or some other form of spiritual abuse.

Consider how the 'spiritual' man views his own heart with trepidation, even when the faults of another is in plain view.

"Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted." Gal. 6:1

Blessings,

MC

So truefaithsav, Paul declares here by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that he is the chief of sinners. Period. If we are simply going by his past, did he really outsin his contemporaries? What about the future anti-Christ? Was Paul a greater sinner than what the anti-Christ will be?

If you read my little essay, you will see how your view simply does not measure up with the essence of what Paul was saying. In comparison to other historical persons that have come on the scene, or will come on the scene, Paul was a pretty insignificant sinner in the history of sinners. But Paul had a revelation of just what a monster his sins had made him.

But because of your perverted understanding of these things, and thus, your own self before God, you'll never see these things. So long as you walk according to your present mindset, you are in an odd predicament, because you are blind, yet you say you see.

*edit*

Let me say by the word of the Lord that you will not truly see until you can say that you are the greatest sinner you know. Until a man can say that, his understanding is darkened.

truefaithsav wrote:
If Paul was still living a sinful life (or was a hypocrite) how can we explain these passages?

Acts 24:16

Acts 23:1

1 Cor. 11:1

If Paul was not saying that he was living a holy life, what was he saying? If these passages do not teach that Paul was living a life with victory over sin, then no language possibly could! It could not be any more explicitly taught than that!

He was saying that he was following Christ as all believers do - there is no implication here that he was sinless.

He was saying that he had a clean conscience before God, which is what all believers have when they repent of their sins, knowing that Christ paid for those sins.

He was exercising himself (striving) to have a clean conscience before God, as all believers do - doesn't mean that we are sinless, just that we are striving to be sinless.

Give it up, truefaithsav, your reading of scripture is self-serving and faulty. Your problem is that you don't read scripture to learn from God - you do it to bolster your self-pride.

You are right in saying that Paul was not serving sin - but that doesn't mean he was sinless, it doesn't mean he was perfect. If you will read his teachings with a mind to learn, he always said he was striving for perfection, but frustrated at his own weakness.

This insight should be considered a pre-requisite for any person who feels called to offer spiritual oversight for others. Without this vital dissolusionment of self-righteousness, it is nigh impossible to preach the Gospel with urgency, and more likely that all we can offer is legalism or some other form of spiritual abuse.

Amen. Until you see yourself as the chief of sinners, you can never deal in a spiritual manner with others. Even if you never sinned at all since you became a Christian, and lived the rest of your Christian existence in such a state, you must still see this truth of yourself. Otherwise, your preaching will always be violent, angry, and looking down your nose at others. "Why can't you get your act together?" will become the essence of your preaching, as you lash sinners and saints alike with words that sound like clanging brass. Such a man cannot be a broken vessel in the hands of the Potter.

truefaithsav wrote:
You cannot serve two masters. Paul was not serving sin. Paul said in Romans 6 that he was "free from sin".

Stop reading the Bible to find justification for having sin in your life. As George Fox used to say, that is a Holy book written by holy men, stop using it to excuse your unholiness!

truefauthsav,

Can you not see that when you claim that you live a holy, sinless life before God while still in the flesh, you are actually claiming to be like God?

Repent of your sin, prideful one.

truefaithsav wrote:
This was the exact quote:

“the professors were in a rage, all pleading for sin and imperfection, and could not endure to hear talk of perfection, and of a holy and sinless life.”

“I bade them give over babbling about the Scriptures, which were holy men’s words, whilst they pleaded for unholiness.”

George Fox

Why are you quoting unscriptural sources? Because scripture does not support your prideful position. Anyone who claims to be holy and sinless like God while still living in the flesh is an abomination before God.

truefaithful,

Are you really saying that Paul is saying that his past literally made him the greatest sinner of all time? That his past will be greater than the anti-Christ's future? That's an incredibly bad interpretation.

truefaithsav,

Here is a quotation for you - its is from Scripture:

Jer 49:16 The terror you inspire and the pride of your heart have deceived you, you who live in the clefts of the rocks, who occupy the heights of the hill. Though you build your nest as high as the eagle’s, from there I will bring you down,” declares the LORD.

Was or was not Paul the greatest sinner of all time?

truefaithsav said:

Jesus if our example, which means we are capable of living the way he lived.

Was or was not Paul the greatest sinner of all time?

This is a very important question that anybody reading this passage must ask themselves when they read it. How they answer it means everything. Did Paul out sin every sinner before him? Did Paul out sin every sinner since him? Will Paul's sins make him greater than even the anti-Christ?

That's the true crux of this passage. The answer is obvious. No, Paul was not the greatest sinner even of his generation. Many a men have out sinned the apostle Paul prior to his conversion, and will continue to do so.

That is why when the holy apostle Paul speaks in this passage, he talks in the present tense. "I am the chief of sinners." Not because he's living in some sort of sinful state. But because he's had a revelation of how awful he truly is except for the grace of God. Save the grace of God, he is an absolute monster.

And if Paul says this over himself, our failure to do such shows we are spiritual blind and/or ignorant of a basic Christian truth.

I've never read anyone in the Bible where Paul said he was the greatest sinner "of all time". Certainly some sinners are worse than others, and the devil is a worse sinner than Paul.

He says he is the chief of sinners. The first and foremost. That would include all time. That puts him on top of the hierarchy of sinners.

That is the problem you guys fall into when you take Paul so literally. He was, in a sense, exaggerating. He was simply admitting that he was an aweful sinner because of the things he previously did.

No doubt, Paul is speaking hyperbolicly. But he does this in a pastoral sense to drive a point home with his audience. The shock of Paul saying he is the chief of sinners would have surely stunned his audience, especially since he insists it emphatically in the present tense. He's not just talking about his past. He's talking about what he is as a man, in and of himself. He is the quient-essential man here. Here he represents in himself all of what humanity is without God. He is not confessing to living in any hidden or unrepentant state of sin. He is confessing what he is as a man who stands before God and His holy presence, as a man who knows what it is to be forgiven and cleansed from all sin. This is Paul's Isaiah 6 confession.

truefaithsav wrote:
Pride is when you think higher of yourself than you really are.

If a person is sinful, and they think of themselves as sinless, they are prideful.

But if a person is holy, and they think of themselves as such, they are honest not proud.

You don't know how powerful the grace of God is. He can take a sinner and turn him into a saint. That is what God did with St. Paul.

Paul was not proud when he said that he had a conscience void of offense (saying that he didn't sin anymore). Since it was true, it was not pride for him to say such things.

This last post of yours takes the cake, your holiness. I know how powerful the grace of God is, and I know His power can turn us all from sin. But I am not half-blind. I also know how weak men are as long as they live in the flesh, your holiness. I know that the Lord Jesus can work miracles in us and through us as long as we are totally submitted to Him all the time. I want to be this way, but I am not half-blind, I know that despite the best efforts on my part, I am unable to stay 100% focused on God all the time. That is why I repent of my sins. That is why I seek God all the time, because I am not half-blind and I know that I can stray if I am not careful, your holiness.

Your holiness, you said:

Pride is when you think higher of yourself than you really are. If a person is sinful, and they think of themselves as sinless, they are prideful.

You said:

Paul was not proud when he said that he had a conscience void of offense (saying that he didn't sin anymore). Since it was true, it was not pride for him to say such things.

I have tried my best to help you see, your holiness. But I accept that I am unable to help you see the truth. You will probably continue praising yourself for your holiness in this thread, but I need to do other things more productive.

Paul was not saying, "I have had such a revelation of God, that I realize I am right now presently still very wicked". That is reading your theology into the text. Paul called himself the chief of sinners because he persecuted the Church, plan and simple.

His present tense confessing, which incorporates his past, is the expression of this very thing. His past sin made him realize what a monster he really was. And seeing that, he can be so bold as to say he was the chief of sinners, because to him, he knows no other sins worse than his own. And until you know no other sins worse than the ones you have committed, you have no foundation of repentance to build upon. You want to dance around this and soften it, because it destroys the false repentance of your life. You may not steal, kill and destroy anymore, but without God and His grace in your life, you realize that you would still be doing these very things. It's in your humanity, the sinner you are, to do these very things.

Paul was not a hypocrite. Paul lived a holy life. Paul was "free from sin" according to his own words in Romans 6.

I have never taught anywhere that Paul was presently living in any unrepentant sin. Indeed, total victory over sin in his life was his regular manner of life, as it should be for all Christians. But even for those who live in continual victory, this should not change their confession, "I am the chief of sinners." Paul, in spite of his victory, made this his present claim. Once again, not because he had hidden sin in his life. But because he had a true revelation of God that made him see what a monster he is in and of him-SELF.

Thanks brother Jimmy,

Those are excellent posts concerning Paul’s comment as the chief of sinners.

Trufaithsav,

Why are you failing to see the truth in Jimmy’s posts and also Leo’s? The biggest difference in all of your writings is your failure to magnify the grace of God. Your writings do not even come close to that of the apostle Paul’s. He preached and magnified the gospel of grace. He was a very humble apostle and your lack of humility is very evident. He stated in many places that it is the Christ in him that causes him to live a life pleasing to God. He knew so well what a wretch he was apart from Christ. He knew that any good that he did was Christ in him. He knew that if Christ was to leave him for one second, that in that one second, all you would be able to see is the chief of sinners. He preached Jesus Christ and him crucified. He never went around preaching that sin was a choice and that you can stop sinning. His main message was to get people to believe in the one who could forgive and save them from their sins. Search the book of Acts and you will see they preach Jesus every where they went and told the people that He was the one who could forgive their sins. He is the only one who can save them from their sins.

Where is the grace in all that you are saying?

Actually, Paul said you must confess that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead.

Indeed, the confessing that Jesus is Lord is to be a confession of reality. And indeed, confessing Jesus as Lord means if you are to walk in submission to His Lordship, you will forsake sin. But, as normal, you are putting the cart before the horse. You truly don't understand these things.

Repentance has always meant to forsake your sins, to change your mind about sinning.

Not quite. Repentance issues out of a changed heart and mind, a heart and mind that have been supernaturally regenerated based off one's belief in Christ. Because you now have the mind of Christ, you are to think differently, and as a result, act differently. But all this begins with a belief in the truth and reality of the gospel message. It's a decision to stop living for one's self and instead live for Christ.

You can stop sinning all you want, and be like Paul was, a law observing Jew, blameless according to his own testimony, but still be lost. But unless there is that supernatural regeneration, no amount of deciding to stop sinning is gonna get you anywhere. In fact, it will only lead you into further trouble.

hi, sinners need a savior...are not self led...we realize that we are weak and cling to the cross... we go and tell others of this wonderful Jesus who would die for us while we were yet sinners... we see the Lord and He is high and lifted up... we see ourselves and we can only say woe is me i an a sinner. sin was dealt with at the cross and although people sin;its power to condemn is over to those who trust Jesus.you must rest in what Jesus did because you are a sinner.your arrogant pride is sin as is mine.jimp

haha love the title to this, and without reading the initial post or any responses, i'm gonna cast a solid vote for 'no'

I hope you don't end up sinning and dying before you have a chance to repent.

Would be a crying shame to live a sinless life and screw up at the last second and waste 20 years of holy living.

Wouldn't you agree?

Out of 69 times in the Bible the word sinner(s) appears, non of them refer to the righteous.

[b]1Tim 1:9[/b] [color=990000]Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for [b]sinners[/b]...[/color]

[b]1Tim 1:15[/b] [color=990000]This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.[/color]

If Paul is a sinner when he wrote this, then he is saying that he is not a righteous man and the law was made for men like him; he would be denying that he is righteous.

He only said that he is the "chief of sinners" by regret & remorse; he is the worst of sinner of whom he knows that Jesus has saved.

Listen to the unbecoming pride of our heart. You claim to be the equal of the Lord Jesus in holiness. You have no knowledge of His holiness. Otherwise, you would be ashamed of what you just said.

If we say that we have no sin on our record, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
We humble ourselves to acknowledge the truth of our past sins, but we honor Christ to not sin every hour, everyday, week, month...etc...

Those who claim that you can't stop sinning deny the power of God to [b]fully[/b] sanctify you and make your whole spirit and soul and body to be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1Thes 5:23).

Now, if you must claim that you are still a sinner and can't stop sinning, you are denying that you are preserved blameless.
You call God a liar when He commands you to, which implies that you can.

Jesus is our Standard.
Standards must be reachable/attainable in order for the standard to be fair & just.
IF remained sinless precisely because he was/is God, then that would be an unjust standard, because we are not God to not sin; for we aren't God.
No one can be justly held to a standard which is too high to reach.
Now, since Jesus would not sin, we may not also.

Jesus is our perfect example. Examples are to be imitated.
IF remained sinless precisely because he was/is God, then we can not imitate Him; for we aren't God.
Now, since Jesus would not sin, we may not also.
No one can by justly mandated to follow an example which can not be followed.

Can you not see that when you claim that you live a holy, sinless life before God while still in the flesh, you are actually claiming to be like God?

[color=990000]But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, [b]are changed into the same image[/b] from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.[/color] [b]2Corinth 3:18 [/b]

[b]1John 3:3[/b] [color=990000]And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.
[b]:4[/b] Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
[b]:5[/b] And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
[b]:6[/b] Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.
[b]:7[/b] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
[b]:8[/b] He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
[b]:9[/b] Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his nature remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.[/color]

When one claims to never be with out sin, he is in stark contrast to this Bible passage.

However, those who remain sinless (but maybe sins very infrequently, few & far between) show the work of the Spirit in him bearing His fruit (self-control).

We all know that they who walk in the spirit and according to the spirit can not sin (Rom 8:4-5); for how can he sin while walking in the spirit?

However, they who claim to still be sinners, who can't stop sinning must then be in the flesh, for that is why they sin (Rom 8:8).

How do you think that you are pleasing God as you sin daily?
Don't think it is because you repent every time.

If my wife was always sinning against me, and always repenting afterward, I would think that She hates me, and her repentance is only because she feels bad for hating me.

How do you think that you are pleasing God as you sin daily?
Do you have no self control to stop?
Has He not cleansed you from all sin?
Has He not cleansed you from all unrighteousness?

If He has cleansed you from all sin & all unrighteousness, How then do you remain a sinner?
How then do you sin daily?

[b]This thing you must know.[/b]
I really don't think that most of you actually sin every day; I believe most of you rarely sin.
You love God, and hate sin.
You may even lead a holy life which puts me to shame.

But I do know that you have an over scrupulous mind/conscience.

The main reason for the offence of this thread is that you have a perverted definition of sin which makes all mankind not to be culpable.
Sure, you may have part of the right definition, but it is the other part which trips you up.
One example for something mistaken for sin:
Our thoughts.
A thought is not a sin, but what you do with that thought may become a sin.

If you can't stop sinning, then it is not you who are doing it but some force making/causing you to sin; making you innocent.

"God has given man (the ability) to obey or disobey His will (to sin or not). It is the ability to determine whether you will submit to God or whether you will rebel against Him. It is the freedom to choose between two alternate or opposite choices.

Sin is moral not of one's nature. The problem with a sinner is not his nature; the problem with a sinner is his will. His problem is not the abilities that he has, but how he uses those abilities.
A sinner is a rebel because while he could obey God, he refuses to do so."(truefaithsav)

Out of 69 times in the Bible the word sinner(s) appears, non of them refer to the righteous.

Well, there is that one silly time the holy and righteous apostle Paul called himself the chief of sinners. But, we wouldn't want a verse like that to be considered now, would we?

KingJimmy wrote:

Out of 69 times in the Bible the word sinner(s) appears, non of them refer to the righteous.

Well, there is that one silly time the holy and righteous apostle Paul called himself the chief of sinners. But, we wouldn't want a verse like that to be considered now, would we?

There is also John's admonition to the born-again believers that they should never claim to be without sin in 1 Jn 1: 8-10. But is this as important as the other verses, or should we just ignore it so that someone's personal doctrine remains uncluttered?

KingJimmy wrote:

Out of 69 times in the Bible the word sinner(s) appears, non of them refer to the righteous.

Well, there is that one silly time the holy and righteous apostle Paul called himself the chief of sinners. But, we wouldn't want a verse like that to be considered now, would we?

"If Paul is a sinner when he wrote 1Tim 1:9 & 1Tim 1:15, then he is saying that he is not a righteous man and the law was made for men like him; he would be denying that he is righteous."

Therefore, I did considered it.

Leo_Grace wrote:

KingJimmy wrote:

Out of 69 times in the Bible the word sinner(s) appears, non of them refer to the righteous.

Well, there is that one silly time the holy and righteous apostle Paul called himself the chief of sinners. But, we wouldn't want a verse like that to be considered now, would we?

There is also John's admonition to the born-again believers that they should never claim to be without sin in 1 Jn 1: 8-10.

When you read it, you will know that it means that we must not say that we have no sin on our recorde.

For 1John 9-10, I am defending verse 9 which you all deny and I do not say that I have not sinned.

I never read such verses, unlike my reformed brethren, as Paul or John confessing to living in unrepentant secret sin. But I do read those verses as Paul and John confessing what they are, in and of themselves, apart from God's grace, mercy, and forgiveness. In our flesh dwells no good thing, even if our inner man has been renewed unto the likeness of Christ.

Logic wrote:

Leo_Grace wrote:

KingJimmy wrote:

Out of 69 times in the Bible the word sinner(s) appears, non of them refer to the righteous.

Well, there is that one silly time the holy and righteous apostle Paul called himself the chief of sinners. But, we wouldn't want a verse like that to be considered now, would we?

There is also John's admonition to the born-again believers that they should never claim to be without sin in 1 Jn 1: 8-10.

About 1John 1:8, [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=30684&forum=36&1]Please read this[/url] for understanding.

When you read it, you will know that it means that we must not say that we have no sin on our recorde.

For 1John 9-10, I am defending verse 9 which you all deny and I do not say that I have not sinned.

I don't agree with your self-serving interpretation. The apostle John was speaking to born-again believers, who we can rightfully assume had already been forgiven and redeemed prior to the admonition. So he is no longer speaking here of past sin. John was speaking about ongoing sinfulness, which any honest Christian will humbly admit still occurs in their lives because of their own weakness. Only the prideful and arrogant would dare refuse the teachings of John in 1 jn 1:5-10 and of the Lord Jesus in Lk 18:9-14.

Who is denying 1 Jn 9-10? I am not. I respect it totally as inerrant teaching. It tells us that when we recognize and confess our sins, the Lord is faithful to forgive. It also says that those who refuse to confess the sins in their lives, like you and truefaithsav, are calling the Lord Jesus a liar, and his word is not in you. I totally believe these verses and thank God for them. Otherwise, proud men would not be rebuked.

Logic wrote:

One example for something mistaken for sin:
Our thoughts.
A thought is not a sin, but what you do with that thought may become a sin.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but concerning our thoughts:

Exodus 20:17:

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that [is] thy neighbour's.

Deuteronomy 5:21

Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any [thing] that [is] thy neighbour's.

Covet:חמד - to desire, covet, take pleasure in, delight in

אוה - desire, incline, covet, wait longingly, wish, sigh, want, be greedy, prefer

Romans 7:7

What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Covet: ἐπιθυμέω - to turn upon a thing, to have a desire for, long for, to desire

Lust: ἐπιθυμία - desire, craving, longing, desire for what is forbidden, lust

Leo_Grace wrote:

I don't agree with your self-serving interpretation.

If you can't say that you have no sin, then you are denying 1John 1:7&9, being cleansed from all sin & all unrighteousness.

Therefore, in order to not contradict 1John 1:7&9, 1John 1:8 must mean that if we say that we have no sin [b]on our record[/b], we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

The apostle John was speaking to born-again believers, who we can rightfully assume had already been forgiven and redeemed prior to the admonition. So he is no longer speaking here of past sin. John was speaking about ongoing sinfulness, which any honest Christian will humbly admit still occurs in their lives because of their own weakness. Only the prideful and arrogant would dare refuse the teachings of John in 1 jn 1:5-10 and of the Lord Jesus in Lk 18:9-14.

Who is denying 1 Jn 9-10? I am not. I respect it totally as inerrant teaching. It tells us that when we recognize and confess our sins, the Lord is faithful to forgive. It also says that those who refuse to confess the sins in their lives, like you and truefaithsav, are calling the Lord Jesus a liar, and his word is not in you. I totally believe these verses and thank God for them. Otherwise, proud men would not be rebuked.

The apostle John was speaking to born-again believers, who we can rightfully assume had already been forgiven and redeemed prior to the admonition. So he is no longer speaking here of past sin.

John was speaking about ongoing sinfulness, which any honest Christian will humbly admit still occurs in their lives because of their own weakness.

If it was about on going sinfulness, he would be writing to them for repentance and telling them to stop as Paul did, not asuring them of salvation.

ongoing sinfulness, which any honest Christian will humbly admit still occurs in their lives because of their own weakness.

As for you, you can not plan to never sin, because you have no control over sin.
If you had control of sin, you would agree with me.
However, since you have no control of sin, you are notculpable for sin; no one is culpable for that which they have no control over.

Furthermore, since you can not stop sinning, you are not free from it iether.

Only the prideful and arrogant would dare refuse the teachings of John in 1 jn 1:5-10 and of the Lord Jesus in Lk 18:9-14.

You already know my understanding of Luke 18:9-14, I don't deny it, I ponly understand it correctly.

Who is denying 1 Jn 9-10? I am not.

Tell me, how can you be cleansed from all sin & all unrighteousness and still be sinnfull?

It tells us that when we recognize and confess our sins, the Lord is faithful to forgive.

When we confess our sins, the Lord is faithful to forgive us is salvation.
[/b]Rom 10:10[/b] [color=990000]For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.[/color]

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us; and we will not have eternal life.

It also says that those who refuse to confess the sins in their lives, like you and truefaithsav, are calling the Lord Jesus a liar, and his word is not in you.

I admit that I have been cleansed from all sin & all unrighteousness; I do not have sin in my life right now because I am able to control sin and obey God.
I do not make Him a liar, and his word is in me.

You deny this, therefore, you are calling the Lord Jesus a liar, and his word is not in you.

I do sin.

I totally believe these verses and thank God for them. Otherwise, proud men would not be rebuked.

If you can't stop sinning, and have no control of your sin, you have not been cleansed from all sin & all unrighteousness, and you are still bound to sin and are not free from it.

bdcutler wrote:

Logic wrote:
One example for something mistaken for sin:
Our thoughts.
A thought is not a sin, but what you do with that thought may become a sin.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but concerning our thoughts:

I only sin when I dwell on the unlawful thoughts &/or adopt them as my own.

Logic,

Is this your "ministry" and your "spiritual gift" - putting words in the mouths of others? You presume to know the minds of people better then they know themselves...

If you can't stop sinning, and have no control of your sin, you have not been cleansed from all sin & all unrighteousness, and you are still bound to sin and are not free from it.

You said:

I do sin.

But wait... earlier you also said:

If you can't say that you have no sin, then you are denying 1John 1:7&9, being cleansed from all sin & all unrighteousness.

The truth will reveal itself, and false teaching will eventually contradict itself.

Logic, I do believe you are a born-again brother. But you cling to erroneous beliefs about the holiness of the believers. The path to holiness begins when we recognize our sinfulness before God. We do not choose to sin; we strive to live a victorious Christian life each day; we follow the commands and teachings of Christ - among which is the admonition to be humble and never deny our sinfulness. God teaches us to recognize our sins because unless we admit it's presence, how can we deal with it, and how can we avoid it in the future?

Lk 18:14 [color=CC3300]“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”[/color]

Leo_Grace wrote:
Logic,

Is this your "ministry" and your "spiritual gift" - putting words in the mouths of others? You presume to know the minds of people better then they know themselves - what arrogance!

I hear that you don’t choose to sin, but you still do.
I hear that none of you can stop sinning.
I hear that you are all sinners.

The reality is that if you can't stop, then you are innocent, because no one is guilty of anything out of their control.

If you can't stop sinning, and have no control of your sin, you have not been cleansed from all sin & all unrighteousness, and you are still bound to sin and are not free from it.

These are your words and not my own.

If you can stop sinning, then why are you always falling short?

I have been born again. I have seen the holiness of God and I am appalled at my own sorry state.

Our "state" should be one to be contented in (Php 4:11)

If your state is appalling, then change it.
If you can’t change it, then let God do His work and He will change it.

This is why I don’t see a “sorry state which I am appalled at, because God has changed me.
I am not the same man I was even 5 years ago.

I do not choose to sin.

In fact, I'm pretty confident that I have fewer sins that you or truefaithsav, who reek of the sin of pride.

I claim the power of God to keep me from sin on a daily basis.

You seem to deny this.

[b]QUESTION FOR YOU:[/b]
Does Leonard Ravenhill reek of the sin of pride?
He says,
"You say I'm preaching sinless perfection. You say, "Well, do you think you can get to a place where you can't sin?" I know nothing of the kind. It is not impossible to sin, but it's possible not to commit sin. (LEONARD RAVENHILL)

"I got news for you; if you're a Christian, you don't sin! You've got victory over sin! The Lord Jesus Christ came to purify us unto holiness and nothing but purity will satisfy Him!"
(LEONARD RAVENHILL)

Since he agrees with me is he "arrogant" also?

Because I have seen the holiness of God, I am humbled and I look at myself and can't help but see how far short I fall of God's holiness (unlike you both who think nothing of claiming parity with Christ's holiness).

Because I have seen the holiness of God, I am humbled and I look away from myself and repent of all my sins and choose to never sin again.

But if I do ever sin, I have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

I confess my sins, and I see them because I am not too proud to admit they exist in my life.

When I sin, I quickly repent and plan to never do it again.

Logic wrote:
I do sin.

Finally! Must have been really difficult for you to admit it, but any believer who has seen the holiness of God in Scripture, and looks honestly upon himself cannot help but see this: I do sin.

But wait... earlier you also said:

If you can't say that you have no sin, then you are denying 1John 1:7&9, being cleansed from all sin & all unrighteousness.

So, by your first admission, are you denying the power of Christ in 1 John 1:7? Are you yet unsaved because you said "I do sin."?

Just because I sin does not nullify my salvation.
Just because I sin does not nullify my cleansing from all sin & all unrighteousness; my sin only reveals the quality of my walk with Him at that moment.

My sin warns me that if I stay on the path which lead me to that choice, I am in danger of sinning against my Lord & savior even more.

The truth will reveal itself, and false teaching will eventually contradict itself.

However, I see many in other's doctrines.

Logic, I do believe you are a born-again brother.

But you cling to erroneous beliefs about the holiness of the believers.

The path to holiness begins when we recognize our sinfulness before God.

Along the rest of the path, we must acknowledge God's power to keep you free from the bondage of sin; faultless, blameless, pure, and most of all Christ like.

If you are not living a sinless life, you are not being Christ like.
If you are repenting all the time, it proves that you are sinning and not being Christ like.

We do not choose to sin; we strive to live a victorious Christian life each day

Unless you do sin every day; but then, how so if you do not choose to sin?
If you strive to live a victorious Christian life each day, how then do you sin every day?

we follow the commands and teachings of Christ - among which is the admonition to be humble and never deny our sinfulness.

I would be lying if I said that I am still sinful.

To be sinful is characterized by being or full of sin. Since we do not sin every day, week, month, we are not full of sin.

God teaches us to recognize our sins because unless we admit it's presence, how can we deal with it, and how can we avoid it in the future?

I avoid it in the future by loving God, for love fulfills the law; no one can sin when they are loving God.

[b]Luke 18:14[/b] [color=CC3300]“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”[/color]
I am not exalting myself when I claim to be with out sin.
I am actually being humble by admitting I have sinned.
Then I exalt God (while staying humble) by telling of His great power to keep His people free from the bondage of sin; faultless, blameless, pure, and most of all Christ like.

I admit my need for Christ every day, and choose to follow Him all day; no one will sin at all when they am walking with Him.

Logic, you said:

"I got news for you; if you're a Christian, you don't sin! You've got victory over sin! The Lord Jesus Christ came to purify us unto holiness and nothing but purity will satisfy Him!" (LEONARD RAVENHILL)

Since he agrees with me is he "arrogant" also?

The question is this: Did Leonard Ravenhill ever claim to live a totally sinless life after Christ did his work in him? Show me where he claimed such a thing. I predict that you cannot find any such claim by Ravenhill because he was a true man of God - humble enough to believe all the teachings of Christ, specially those that point out the weakness of men.

Listen to yourself. You said:

I do sin.

I recognize my sin when I do sin, then I truly admit it's presence and repent of it quickly.

I am not exalting myself when I claim to be with out sin.

I only agree with those I hear the truth from; Leonard Ravenhill, John Wesley, Asa Mahan, Winkie Pratney...etc...

This is my last post on our discussion - you are incorrigible.

What is happening to this forum?

I find the very title of this thread extremely offensive. I gave it a number of days and it did not seem to fade off, nor become locked, so I looked in it.

Upon trying to read just the last page, I give up. What is this? Point, Counter-Point?? Does every comment deserve dissection and refutation?

Perhaps it is the season for this? I do not understand how the Body of Christ is magnified here.

If this was my first visit to the site, it would be my last.

White_Stone wrote:
What is happening to this forum?

I find the very title of this thread extremely offensive. I gave it a number of days and it did not seem to fade off, nor become locked, so I looked in it.

Upon trying to read just the last page, I give up. What is this? Point, Counter-Point?? Does every comment deserve dissection and refutation?

Perhaps it is the season for this? I do not understand how the Body of Christ is magnified here.

If this was my first visit to the site, it would be my last.

I agree. I apologize to all for my part in this.

In fact, some believe Paul to be a false apostle.

Seeing how this is your first post here, let me say if you are going to even remotely entertain such a notion as this, I hope this is your last post. We are a serious group of Christians in this forum who love the Lord Jesus Christ, and desperately want to see God move in our lives. I would encourage you to read, listen, and learn. If you are looking for a fight, you might get one from time to time. But, you are in the wrong place. There are better forums on the internet for such.

FreddieFish wrote:

Hello KingJimmy,

I do not know why you jumped to the conclusion that I was looking for a fight, and what made you assume I was not a Christian and do not love my Lord Jesus.

All I wanted to do was to point out that TrueFaithSav had been really badly treated, if this is indeed a forum of true believers. And if I were entertaining a wrong idea about Paul, should you not lovingly try to correct me rather than ostracize me straight away? What if I were a non-believer just seeking to learn?

Leo_Grace said that "As Christians we are supposed to follow Christ and Him alone" -- yet, [b]people would jump to Paul's defence when it is pointed out that many of Paul's teachings contradict those of Christ[/b]. The world seems to have more Paulinists than Christians.

[b]There are no contradictions between the teachings of Paul and that of Jesus Christ[/b]. I am hoping that your statement was merely a grievous slip and not an outright challenge to the sanctity and infallibility of Scripture.

[i]2Ti 3:16 [b]All Scripture is God-breathed[/b] and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.[/i]

No one needs to defend the apostle Paul for he is not an opportunistic peddler of false doctrine, as are some who visit this forum to sow confusion. Paul's words and his teachings are divinely inspired and consistent with the rest of Scripture, of which it is an essential part. It was the Lord Jesus Christ himself who sought the Pharisee named Saul (later named Paul) and anointed him with the Holy Spirit to move greatly in the ministry of preaching the true gospel to the early Christians.

There are many peace-loving and long-suffering members here who will not allow any post that contains heresy or blasphemy to go unchallenged. We would expose and correct such error immediately out of love for God and for our fellow men who may be misled by false teachers.

Your first two posts in this forum lack wisdom, to say the least. Please consider your words more carefully if you are here in good faith. If you come to promote falsehood, you will not succeed.

I do not worship the apostle Paul or in any way deify our beloved brother. But let me be so bold as to say that the life Paul lived and the gospel he preached was the very embodiment of Jesus Christ. Was Paul perfect in everything he said and did in his life and ministry? Of course not. But he is the greatest example this world has ever seen of what it means to be a Christian. I would be so bold as to say that the the Lord Jesus Christ was the embodiment of the Father, and Paul in his life and ministry was the embodiment of Jesus Christ. "For me to live is Christ" was more than just a cute devotional and theological saying for him, it was a reality that he regularly experienced and walked in. Let me be so bold as to say that if it were not for the likes of the apostle Paul, we would hardly begin to know how to follow Jesus Christ. Paul showed us what the Christ life was like in flesh and blood. The apostle Paul is the chief paradigm of the faith once and for all handed down to the saints.

I am a disciple of Jesus Christ first and foremost. But, I am also a disciple of his apostles, of whom Paul is our greatest example. If your interpretation of Christ does not agree with the interpretation and example established by the apostle Paul, you haven't even begun to understand Christ.

We all know our brother
Paul came years after the
Day of Pentecost. There
were 120 saved in the
upper room, then about
3,000 souls, and the Lord
kept adding “daily as
should be saved” (Acts
2:41, 47). We also know our
salvation is one thing, then
comes the knowledge. Paul
says in 1 Timothy 2:4,
“Who will have all men to
be saved and to come unto
the knowledge of the
truth.” Thank God it only
takes a sincere believer to
be saved; it’s the knowledge
of the truth where we
miss the mark.
Yes, Paul comes later,
but listen to how he writes,
“And I thank Christ Jesus
our Lord who hath
enabled me, for that he
counted me faithful, putting
me into the ministry;
who was before a blasphemer,
and a persecutor, and
injurious: but I obtained
mercy, because I did it
ignorantly in unbelief,
and the grace of our Lord
was exceeding abundant
with faith and love which
is in Christ Jesus. This is
a faithful saying, and
worthy of all acceptation,
that Christ Jesus came
into the world to save sinners;
of whom I am chief.
Howbeit for this cause I
obtained mercy that in me
first Jesus Christ might
shew forth all longsuffering,
for a pattern to them
which should hereafter
believe on him to life everlasting”
(1 Tim. 1:12–16).
Am I missing something
here in my reading of verse
16? Paul says “in me first”
and “for a pattern to them
which should here after
believe….” How can he be
first and a pattern to them
which should believe afterward?
(Pattern: the original,
the mold, the example.)
I was re-reading time
and again “The Sufficiency
of Grace” by Richard
Cassidy in a Life in the Son
magazine. He says Paul
used the word grace 81
times in his letters while
others only a few times.
(Peter uses it 10 times, the
most of the others.) Could
Paul be the first to fully
understand grace and
mercy? Could he mean he
was first to receive and
experience this grace and
mercy? This could well be
because we must not forget
the way he received his
gospel of grace, by revelation
of Jesus Christ (Gal.
1:12). It stands to reason
that, if I was born again
and, years later, another is
born again also but he
speaks as the first to
receive mercy and grace, I
would question his claim.
Maybe he knows something
I don’t. If he did and
it came from God, well, you
can be sure I would be
knocking at the throne’s
door. God is not a respecter
of persons.
I really believe Paul, the
first and the pattern. For
sure Paul knows something
by revelation we
don’t get by sense knowledge.
Is this the reason the
enemy works overtime to
stop believers from following
Paul, who follows
Christ? (1 Cor. 11:1) When
I first read Romans 1:2, I
thought I was to read the
Bible to have my mind
renewed and be transformed.
Not so! In the Old
Testament, the “old man”
does not have the mind of
Christ (1 Cor. 1:16). No
PIERCING WORDS
OF TRUTH
PART 1
By Frank Gonzales
way! If I am to be transformed,
I need the mind of
Christ; and to have this, I
must stay close to Paul and
his writings. Peter, when
he first preached, didn’t
know this. How can
Christians not see this?!
Why is it that Christians
don’t understand that in
the book of Acts, when it
says, “They spoke the word
of God with boldness” and,
“the word increased” and,
“many received the word”
(Acts 4:31; 6:7; 8:14, and
other places), that the
“word” spoken was not New
Testament word. Paul is not
even around yet, and hasn’t
yet written any letters.
Peter preaches that they
must repent and be baptized.
Did Peter know “that
God was in Christ reconciling
the world unto Himself,
not imputing their trespasses
unto them” (2 Cor. 5:19)?
Did Peter know (remember,
Jesus told them) that the
Holy Spirit came to reprove
the world of sin “because
they believe not on me”?
(John 16:9) Did Peter know
that our message to the
world is the reconciliation
message (2 Cor. 5:19)?
Peter was a witness that
Jesus was raised from the
grave, but did Peter know
that the old Peter died with
Christ and was raised with
Christ? (Rom. 6:1–6) Did
Peter know about the new
covenant (Heb. 9:15–17).
Peter understood the law,
but did Peter know that
“Christ is the end of the law
for righteousness to every
one that believeth” (Rom.
10:4)? Did Peter know that
the law was our schoolmaster
to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified
by faith (Gal. 3:24)?
My fellow Christians,
Peter did not know any of
these truths because they
and much more were written
by Paul, and Paul had
not yet received the gospel
of grace. Peter was a good
preacher, but not according
to New Testament knowledge
(Rom. 10:2). Let me
say that God did bless and
God did save people like He
does today, even those who
preach law, but is it
because Jesus “ever liveth
to make intercession for
them” (Heb. 7:25)?
In Hebrews 5:2, the
Word says that the high
priest had compassion on
the ignorant and on them
that are out of the way.
Jesus is today our High
Priest (Heb. 4:15). How He
must intercede for us!
So please let us move
past Peter, who had much
to learn, and follow Paul, as
he follows Christ. Peter did
say that Paul had wisdom
given to him, that there
were things hard to understand
(2 Peter 3:16). Of
course, the gospel of Paul
came by revelation, that of
Peter by sense knowledge. I
mean, how hard is it to
understand do’s and don’ts.
This was given to me when
I was a child, and there
were no Christians around. END:

I hope I am not missing something here, but Paul says many times the Gospel of Christ in a person is "My Gospel", not revealed to him by man but by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. Paul also says in the fulness of time, God chose Paul to give us this final Gospel, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory". This message was given to me by revelation also, some 30 years after I was saved, "Christ in me the Hope of Glory".

Don't let Satan destroy what God has given us in and through Paul by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

"All of scripture is;" especially in the Final Gospel from Paul.

Colossians 1:24-28 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

"Fulfill the Word of God"? Only Paul could say this.

All this comes from other than myself, and in this in which I am in total agreement with I thank the Author of this article and Christ Life Fellowship, Life in the Son Magazine, for this revelation and truth of Paul.

PIERCING WORDS
OF TRUTH
PART 1
By Frank Gonzales

www.christ-life.org

This is not an advertisement or given as an offertory for donations, but a clear message of what others and many on these forums believe of Paul, whom we are to follow.

In Christ: Phillip

Good bye.

That is so true truefaithsav!

Once the persecution begins, we'll see who the true believers are.

The Christians in China do not have the time to come up with all these erroneous thoughts and doctrines...

They're too busy depending on God for their lives, because of their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Christ was preaching and teaching the Law of the kingdom of God which Israel was supposed to be living, they could not keep it, He did keep it perfect.

Paul was preaching the Grace of God in the Cross of Christ, now we do the commandments out of Love with the new hearts we have by Christ being in us and by His Spirit and taught by the Holy Spirit this Grace and Love. We love Him and keep his commandments because He first loved us and kept the commandments perfect, that we might have no condemnation before God, and sweet confession when we do fail and Pure Grace cleansing from all unrighteousness.

In the pure Grace of God in Christ Jesus, loving His law in the inward man and killing the flesh all the day long. Renewing our minds to the Mind of Christ by His Spirit and the Father making their abode in us and the Holy Spirit sealed us in this Oneness with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

In the Love and Grace of Christ in us:

Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
Christ was preaching and teaching the Law of the kingdom of God which Israel was supposed to be living, they could not keep it, He did keep it perfect.

To show man his need of a Savior. Adam and all his seed were living souls, Christ was a quickening spirit. Satan was a killing spirit and the father of lies, which Adam was birthed with when he sinned. That is why we must be born again with the quickening Spirit of Christ or we stay in our father the devil, dead in our trespasses and sins, separated from God, surly dead. That is why our hope of Glory is, "Christ in you", birthed of the Father. Satan out, Christ in. New life in Christ, "New creatures".

In Christ: Phillip

Why would God get angry at man for not doing that which they can not do?

For the same reason your bank will get angry at you if you default on your loan and don't pay them back. Even if you have no income, you are in debt and owe them just the same. But with God, we are in so much debt that there is no hope of repaying Him. We are entirely dependent upon God showing us mercy in order for our debts to be satisfied. In Matthew 18, we read about this very thing. We read of a man who owed his master 10,000 talents. 1 talent was equal to 15 years wages, and thus, this man owed an impossible amount of debt to ever hope to pay off. But he owed it just the same. But the master had mercy on him, and forgave him.

God does demand what is impossible for us to ever pay back. Which is why we need Jesus Christ to release us from our debt. If we could ever pay back the debt ourself, Jesus Christ death would be in vain.

*edit*

KingJimmy wrote:

Why would God get angry at man for not doing that which they can not do?

For the same reason your bank will get angry at you if you default on your loan and don't pay them back.

But with God, we are in so much debt that there is no hope of repaying Him.

God does demand what is impossible for us to ever pay back.

God does demand what is impossible for us to ever pay back. Which is why we need Jesus Christ to release us from our debt. If we could ever pay back the debt ourself, Jesus Christ death would be in vain.

Technically we could pay our debt, it would just take an eternity of suffering. But God is merciful and that is why He pardons our debt. If God demanded the payment of our debt, we would all be in hell forever. But God withholds our punishment because of His great kindness.

Jesus provided a substitute for the penalty of the law so that our penalty can be remitted by God's mercy. The atonement makes it possible for our debt of eternal hell to be forgiven.

God does not command of us what is impossible. We are to love Him "with all thy". Therefore our moral obligation is perfectly matched to our ability, no more and no less. God is not a Tyrant, as Pharoah who commanded brick but gave no straw. God never allows temptation to exceed our ability. God is so good!

I read somthing about sin here and i want to give my two cent advice. The only power to overcome sin in our daily life in as we abide in Jesus daily as the branch abides in the Vine.

The bible is very clear that we should not continue in willful sin.

"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26)

Victory over conscience sin thru the power of the Holy Spirit in a fact in the bible there is no room for assumption.

We may be pretty quick to detect sins of commisions in our life but what about the sins of omissions.Im talking about things that we dont do but neglect like the sin of prayerlesness or the sin of being silent when we must witness about Jesus, not to talk about the sin of ignorance. We may not intent not to do this things, we may be very sincere and if we have a felowhip with God, the blood of Jesus will clease us of all sin and unrighteouness.

There are sins that are very "deadly" to our spirit but there are sins that dont lead to spiritual "death" but that we need to repent for sure because all sin is an abomination for God.

Why would God get angry at man for not doing that which they can not do?

For the same reason your bank will get angry at you if you default on your loan and don't pay them back.

This analogy is flawed because you don't quality for the loan unless the bank first sees that you are capable of paying it. The size of your income qualifies you for the size of the loan that you receive.

The same is true with God. It is our ability to obey God that qualifies us for our obligation to obey God. Our obligation is proportation to the size of our ability. The size of your ability is the size of your obligation. Our obligation is "with all thy", so whatever is the extent of your ability is the extent of your obligation.

Augustine said, "God does not demand impossibilities.” (Joy and Strength, 1929 Edition, p. 192, published by Grosset & Dunlap)

Pelagius said the same thing.

Even a Calvinist like Albert Barnes said that God is not a Tyrant who commands the impossible.

And an Arminian like E. M. Bounds said that God does not command the impossible.

This is something that the Augustinians, Pelagians, Calvinists, and Arminians can all agree on.

defaulting on a loan is not a necessity, it is not inevitable.
Therefore, it isn't the same reason.

True, defaulting on a loan isn't a necessity and it isn't inevitable. However, we as the seed of Adam are in default with God. Like the parable, we are in such debt there is no hope that we can ever pay back all that we owe... but we still owe. Thankfully, Jesus Christ has paid our debt by His death on the cross.

Yes, but we put ourselves in debt by choice.

We are born debtors, much like every American child who is already 36,000 in debt the moment he is born.

If God demanded the payment of our debt, we would all be in hell forever.

Actually, God does demand the payment of our debt. He only shows us mercy because Jesus Christ paid the debt we owed by His sacrifice on the cross. We were redeemed, and "bought with a price" (1 Cor 6:20). We are not merely saved because God decided to have mercy. We are saved because God had mercy on us because of the price Christ paid for us. Without that price being paid, God would show no mercy.

By the way, welcome back Jesse. I wish when the moderators caused you to go away, you actually would.

This analogy is flawed because you don't quality for the loan unless the bank first sees that you are capable of paying it

Banks give loans to people all the time that are never qualified for to begin with. One does not have to "qualify," one simply needs one that is willing to lend. And whatever the case, this world was given to Adam who was to be a steward over it. But Adam fell into a debt level that we have all inherited as his offspring.

Our obligation is "with all thy", so whatever is the extent of your ability is the extent of your obligation.

It depends not on man who wills or man who runs, but on God who shows mercy.

KingJimmy wrote:

Our obligation is "with all thy", so whatever is the extent of your ability is the extent of your obligation.

It depends on on man who wills or man who runs, but on God who shows mercy.

Abraham willed or desired that it the promise might be given to Ishmael.
Isaac also willed or desired that the promise might be given to Esau.

This verse is in context with Exodus 33:18-20 & Abraham willing that the promise would come through Ishmael as the context proves Genesis 17:18
Moreover, in Genesis 27 Isaac is willing for Esau to have the blessing and Esau "running" to hunt and make Isaac's favorite meal for the blessing.

God also chooses the one which is not wanted or favored by man.
Jacob wanted Rachel because he favored her more than Leah. But God shown HIS favor on Leah by her child bringing the SEED through Judah.

KingJimmy wrote:

defaulting on a loan is not a necessity, it is not inevitable.
Therefore, it isn't the same reason.

True, defaulting on a loan isn't a necessity and it isn't inevitable. However, we as the seed of Adam are in default with God. Like the parable, we are in such debt there is no hope that we can ever pay back all that we owe... but we still owe. Thankfully, Jesus Christ has paid our debt by His death on the cross.

Yes, but we put ourselves in debt by choice.

We are born debtors, much like every American child who is already 36,000 in debt the moment he is born.

God does not demand debt from them who did not incur one.

You are wrong that every American child who is already 36,000 in debt the moment he is born.

This verse is pointing out that man's favorite is not always God's favorite.

True, but that is not all that it points out. It points out that man cannot do anything to change his cirumstance, rather, he is entirely dependent upon God to rescue him and show him mercy.

t is unjust to demand payment for a debt from who did not incur it.

We were in Adam when he incurred this debt. Adam was the federal head of our race, representing all of humanity before God. We are culpable for not only Adam's debt, but ours as well. Jesus condemned the Pharisees using this logic:

Matthew 23:29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, `If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

You are wrong that every American child who is already 36,000 in debt the moment he is born.

America is trillions of dollars in debt right now. Whatever the exact figure is, every child born in this country is automatically on the hook to pay this debt back the moment they enter this world. They did not incur this debt, but it is a debt they will be forced to pay.

KingJimmy wrote:

It is unjust to demand payment for a debt from who did not incur it.

We were in Adam when he incurred this debt.

Adam was the federal head of our race, representing all of humanity before God.

It is an injustice to hold anyone to someone else's debt.

We are culpable for not only Adam's debt, but ours as well. Jesus condemned the Pharisees using this logic:

We can't even be held for our country's federal head's personal sin, how musch less are we held accountable for Adam's.

You are wrong that every American child who is already 36,000 in debt the moment he is born.

Lets get real here.

We are only "in Adam" when we are alive.
That is why it says that "all in Adam are dying"
You can't be dying until you are alive.

The author of Hebrews insists that the Levites paid tithes to Melchizedek while they were "in Abraham," and based on this, argues for the superiority of Christ's priesthood.

Likewise, just as Adam was kicked out of the Garden, so were we, however, when Adam sinned, it was only him who was affected and inured guilt.

Romans 5:18 insists that Adam's transgression resulted in the condemnation of all men, not just Adam.

Americas debt is not a new born child's personal debt.
Only personal debt is held to one's account.
The personally will not be forced to pay.

Lets get real here.

So, let's tell our children that our debt to China is simply ours, and that they are under no liability to pay them back if we fail to do so in our lifetime. I don't think China will take to kindly to that.

Logic wrote:

God does not demand debt from them who did not incur one.

Jesus????

Guys,

I have a small request.

None of you doubts the truth of the Apostle Paul's teachings, because it is Scripture, right? Since you are discussing something altogether different from the original title of this thread, which is revolting, [i]please[/i] start a new thread with the appropriate title and continue your discussions there. This thread with its offensive title should be allowed to sink into oblivion, where it belongs.

Thank you.

Do a word search in the New Testament for the word "debt" and you will see that God forgives us of our debt. Nowhere does it say that our debt is paid, but that our debt is pardoned. Just search for the word "debt" and you will see that the Bible never says our debt is paid. Our debt is eternal hell. Jesus made it possible for our debt to be forgiven, but he did not suffer eternal hell.

The idea of an atonement is that it substitutes the penalty of the law, so that our penalty can be remitted. But if our debt is paid, there can be no pardon. If our penalty is executed, there can be no remission of sins.

What kingjimmy is saying is that God does not forgive us our sins and that there is no real remission, which is clearly refuted by a simple reading of the Bible. Our sins are forgiven, not punished. Our penalty is remitted, not executed. The atonement was a substitute for our penalty, making it possible for God to pardon us of our debt. The atonement did not satisfy the wrath of God, the atonement made it possible for God to turn from His wrath when we are converted.

New School Calvinists like Jonathon Edwards Jr., Albert Barnes, Moses Stuart, Nathan Taylor, Nathan Beman, and others understood that the payment of a debt view of the atonement was inconsistent with grace, mercy, and forgiveness. The payment view is inconsistent with the doctrines of grace.

And the idea that we are guilty of Adam's sin because we participated in Adam's sin, being in his loins (his semen or sperm) would also make us guilty of all the sins of all our parents. If your grandfather was a murderer, you would be guilty of his crime because you were in his loins as his semen. A simple reading of Ezekiel 18 would refute this misconception of seminal idenity.

New School Calvinists like Albert Barnes rejected both the imputed guilt of Adam view (federal headship) and the seminal identity view (organic idenity) because there are real problems with both.

We are accountable for our sins alone. We are not accountable for Adam's sin, but his sin has contributed to our own. The result of his disobedience was that we have all chosen to be sinners. "by one man's disobedience, many were made sinners". By opening our eyes by eating from the tree of knowledge, Adam has provided us with an opportunity to be sinners which we have freely chosen to take by choosing to sin. His disobedience has contributed to our choice to be sinners. Likewise Christ has provided us with an opportunity to be saved if we freely choose to repent and believe. Both damnation and salvation are conditional upon our choice to sin or repent.

(New School Calvinism was declared to be orthodox by the Synod of Philadelphia. Barnes was brought up on trial for charges of heresy and was acquitted by the Synod. New School Calvinism teaches the natural ability of man, the substitutionary governmental atonement, and denies the imputed guilt of Adam's sin to the innocent).

Nowhere does it say that our debt is paid, but that our debt is pardoned.

This is true. But the idea of "debt" is also tied to the idea of "redemption." Redemption is a term of "purchase," and is used in a variety of contexts. One of those being the slave market, whereby one comes by and purchases a slave. Back in Biblical days, one was often sold into slavery in order to pay back debts owed. The Scriptures declare time and time again that we have been "redeemed." Which means somebody else took money they had, which we did not have, and purchased us. This act "satisfied" our debts.

Our debt is eternal hell. Jesus made it possible for our debt to be forgiven, but he did not suffer eternal hell.

Isaiah 53 makes it clear he suffered the punishment due to us on the cross. You always ignore this, that the stroke due to us, Isaiah says, was given to Christ.

Isaiah 53:8 ...He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due.

He received the punishment due to us. Death is the punishment for sin, "The day you sin you shall die." Hell is but an extension of continued existence one has entered into by means of death.

We are not accountable for Adam's sin, but his sin has contributed to our own.

Adam's sin didn't merely contribute to our own, it also condemned us according to Romans 5:18

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

And as a result of Adam's sin condemning us, "through one act of righteousness," we are made right with God. That is Adam's sin condemned us, but for those who are in Christ, the obedience of Christ gave us the life and mercy we would otherwise not be able to receive.

KingJimmy wrote:

We are only "in Adam" when we are alive.
That is why it says that "all in Adam are dying"
You can't be dying until you are alive.

The author of Hebrews insists that the Levites paid tithes to Melchizedek while they were "in Abraham," and based on this, argues for the superiority of Christ's priesthood.

An idiom is:
My grandfather is 74, and he plays golf every day – it's a sport you can play even as you head into the sunset, so to speak.
Even if New Yorkers obeyed all the rules, New York would still be, so to speak, an unruly city.
so to speak.

Likewise, just as Adam was kicked out of the Garden, so were we, however, when Adam sinned, it was only him who was affected and inured guilt.

Romans 5:18 insists that Adam's transgression resulted in the condemnation of all men, not just Adam.

[b]2.[/b]
of one (Adam)
of one (Jesus)

[b]3.[/b]
judgment came
the free gift came

[b]4.[/b]
upon all men
upon all men

[b]5.[/b]
to condemnation (with no repenting)
unto justification of life (with repenting)

This verse must be equal in both parts; if condemnation comes involuntarily, then Justification must also come involuntarily also.
If Justification is not forced upon all men, then condemnation must not be forced upon all men either.

Therefore, in whatever way that judgment came upon all men, so also justification came upon all men; which is by choice in putting faith in/on Christ; Judgment comes by the choice of sinning and justification comes by the choice of faith.

It is the individual's choices that determine whether they are condemned or justified.
If you choose to sin, you will be condemned.
If you choose to trust in God, you will be justified.

Americas debt is not a new born child's personal debt.
Only personal debt is held to one's account.
The personally will not be forced to pay.

Lets get real here.

So, let's tell our children that our debt to China is simply ours, and that they are under no liability to pay them back if we fail to do so in our lifetime. I don't think China will take to kindly to that.

Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receives tithes, paid tithes in Abraham.
The term "as I may say so" tells us that Hebrews 7:9 ia an Idiom.
Idioms are not to be made as a doctrine, especially to back up one's theology.

Again, the author of Hebrews does this very thing. He uses the fact that Levi was in Abraham's loins to prove the superiority of the priesthood of Melchizedek over that of the levitical priesthood. He does the very thing you say he cannot do.

This verse must be equal in both parts; if condemnation comes involuntarily, then Justification must also come involuntarily also.

Actually, this is the point. Justification is something that happens to us passively. That is the crux of the Reformations split with Rome, that in verses like Romans 1:17, being declared righteous is passive in the Greek. It is something that happens to you, just as condemnation is something that happens to you. And both happen to you by God. We experience condemnation through Adam's condemnation, and likewise, we experience justification and life through Christ's righteousness, not our own.

We are talking about being held personally accountable, not corporately.

The doctrine of corporate solidarity sees no distinction.

KingJimmy wrote:

Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receives tithes, paid tithes in Abraham.
The term "as I may say so" tells us that Hebrews 7:9 ia an Idiom.
Idioms are not to be made as a doctrine, especially to back up one's theology.

Again, the author of Hebrews does this very thing. He uses the fact that Levi was in Abraham's loins to prove the superiority of the priesthood of Melchizedek over that of the levitical priesthood. He does the very thing you say he cannot do.

That means Levi was [b]not[/b] literally in Abraham's loins, but metaphorically to prove a point.

In reality, The sperm of Levi wasn't even in Abraham; not even Jacob's sperm was in Abraham.
Therefore, in reality, to say that Levi was in Abraham's loins "in fact" is non-scene.

This verse must be equal in both parts; if condemnation comes involuntarily, then Justification must also come involuntarily also.

Actually, this is the point. Justification is something that happens to us passively.

My point was that just as the one is, so is the other.

According to some, condemnation is automatic because of Adam; one does not need to even sin to be condemned.
Now, for that verse to be correctly parsed, one must automatically be made righteous with out any faith or repentance on our part.

To understand that verse correctly, one must understand it this way:
Righteousness does not just happen with out you reacting to God by faith & repentance, so condemnation does not just happen to you with out you reacting to God in no faith & unrepentance.

The condemnation only comes after ones "age of accountability" comes. Until then, one is innocent and not condemned.

KingJimmy wrote:

We are talking about being held personally accountable, not corporately.

The doctrine of corporate solidarity sees no distinction.

Furthermore, if it is as you say, that the "doctrine of corporate solidarity sees no distinction" between Adam & me, then I would be made righteous by God clothing Adam with the skin of an animal (Gen 3:21) and not go to hell because of my personal sins; knowing that when God, himself clothes a person, it is considered making one righteous.

Adam is in heaven so all mankind will be in heaven.

It is not a "fact" that Levi was in Abraham's loins, it is "so to speak".

A "so to speak" is Hebrews assertion of this fact. Your dismissal makes this verse altogether unintillegible, and shows you do not understand some simple exegesis. The argument of Hebrews 7 is null and void unless what he asserts is in fact true. In Hebrews 7, the author is trying to demonstrate that the priesthood of Melchizedek is superior to that of the levites. He does this by showing that while in Abraham, the levites paid tithes to Melchizedek, and thus showing submission to the priesthood he would later receive. Secondly, he shows that even though the Levites were later granted a priesthood, their priesthood was not as great as Melchizedek. For those who are greater bless the lesser, and since Levi was still in Abraham when Melchizedek blessed Abraham, it is shown that Melchizedek's priesthood is therefore greater.

This is a simple summary of the argument made in Hebrews. Indeed, this is a common thing done throughout the Scriptures. For example, when God made a covenant with the Jews at Mt. Sinai. It wasn't merely with the people standing before Him that He made it, but it was automatically extended to include all those who would be born as the children of those whom God entered into covenant with. And likewise, when God finally judged Israel and Judah, it wasn't just merely for the sins of that particular generation that those nations suffered wrath. Rather, their generation received the wrath of many generations in one generation. Example after example could be multiplied of this doctrine as used in the Scripture, of which Hebrews 7 and Romans 5 make great examples.

No, it is not a passive thing, we must first choose to put our faith in/on Christ & what He said & done.
This is not a passive thing, but an active

This is grammatically and theologically incorrect. When one is declared righteous, it is done so in the passive Greek voice. Meaning, it is something that happens to the individual, and it is something the individual receives.

My point was that just as the one is, so is the other.

According to some, condemnation is automatic because of Adam; one does not need to even sin to be condemned.
Now, for that verse to be correctly parsed, one must automatically be made righteous with out any faith or repentance on our part.

Indeed, as one is, so is the other. Such is simple logic. And this logic holds up according to the interpretation I have put forward. Condemnation is autmoatic because we are born in Adam. Likewise, righteousness is automatic for those who are born again into Christ.

Righteousness does not just happen with out you reacting to God by faith & repentance, so condemnation does not just happen to you with out you reacting to God in no faith & unrepentance

Of course, this righteousness is not to be understood apart from Paul's doctrine of justification by faith. Indeed, Paul in Romans chapter 4 goes through great pains to show we are justified by faith. Romans 5 is about the grounds by which God can justify a man by faith. As Paul says in Romans 5:19, Adam's disobedience made us sinners, but the obedience of the One (Christ) made us who believe righteous.

Adam is in heaven so all mankind will be in heaven.

I believe Adam will be in heaven, as it appears he received a covering for his shame from the Lord. But at this point, his personal salvation doesn't have anything to do with ours, because we were still in the body of sin and death that was part of his fallen nature. His fallen nature still continued to exist after he received atonement for his sin, of which fallen nature we are a part of, and that is forever a part of this world until God brings about a new heavens and new earth.

Adam's fall is also why God sent Jesus Christ into the world. Jesus Christ is called "the last Adam." He is the beginning of a new creation that God is bringing about. Even if Adam did get saved after his fall, his salvation didn't undo the effects of his fall on the world. After the fall, his access to the tree of life and the ability to live forever was denied. So, in order to restore the creation to God's desired pattern, God has created another Adam, a new federal head under which the human race is to be restored to its immortality and glory. Through the new birth available in Christ, a new race of people have been born. We are renewed spiritually by regeneration, and now we are a people who await a resurrected and glorified body, and a new heavens and a new earth in which rigtheousness dwells. And there again the tree of life will exist, which will be for the "healing of the nations," for us to partake of throughout all eternity.

Amen.

Quote:

"And there again the tree of life will exist, which will be for the "healing of the nations," for us to partake of throughout all eternity."

We the born son's and daughters of God are already partaking of the tree of Life. Christ is the Tree of Life. We already have the living Christ in us, The incorruptable Seed of the Father.

The Born Again were chosen to be in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

To be born again we must have the Seed of the Father, Jesus Christ in our Spirit which is no longer the abode of our old father satan. If the Spirit of Christ is not in us we are, "none of His".

The Body of Christ is not a nation. The Body of Christ is His Church. The healing of the Nations are for this earth when Christ comes with His Saints and the Father's son's and daughters', That is when the Nation of Israels chosen remnant will be revealed and partake of the Tree of Life and the rivers of living water, for all the rest of the nations of the earth dwelling 1000 years. We already have flowing out of us by the Christ that is rebirthed in us the rivers of flowing water by which we will never thirst again.

1 Peter 1:16-23 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: (((((Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.)))))

And, who is the Word? John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Jesus Christ is the Tree of Life which the Nations will be partakers of for their healing, "by His stripes we are healed", by His stripes they will be healed and partakers of the river of life, no longer in darknes but the Light, who is also Jesus Christ, in whom we are already in the light and living by His life that is birthed in us of the Father. What glory we already have, The Father, The Son making Their abode with us and the Holy Spirit in us for ever.

Romans 8:9-14 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit (Christ)that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit (Holy Spirit)do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

"Son's of God", by the birthing of Christ in us, which is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Paul speaks of this very loudly and ofter in all his epistles; Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Perfect son's, before the Father and Joint Heirs with Christ of our heavenly kingdom, which Christ is preparing for us in our mansions of Glory in the Fathers House, where we are already seated with Christ in the heavenlies, awaiting our redeemed bodies, which will be just like His changed in the twinkling of an eye on resurrection day of The Body of Christ His Church, not nations.

This is who we are in Christ, not what we are in this body of flesh which we groan to rid ourselves of, which will happen, for now this is our fast, He being not with us as He was with the Apostles, for this we fast. We don't fast in our Spirit for that is already Christ's Spirit, we are learning not to fast in our soul, for we have the mind of Christ and the Holy Spirit is teaching us all things which Christ has given Him to reveal to us. We will no longer fast in the flesh when we are changed, for we shall be with Him and like Him before the Father in flesh and bone, no blood, for the life of the flesh is in the blood and blood cannot enter the Kingdom already prepared for us in our Father's House.

In Christ: Phillip

We the born son's and daughters of God are already partaking of the tree of Life

Yes, true. But we live presently in the "already...but not yet" aspect of the kingdom of God. That is, we are experiencing presently what Paul says in Ephesians 1 is but a downpayment of the fullness that is yet to come. A downpayment is never the full amount.

We live in the now, as to the kingdom of God in Spirit, for Christ is now our spirit. We are learning to live in our soul/mind, by the mind of Christ now. The Holy Spirit is now living in us as our comforter and teacher of all that Jesus is saying to the Born Again Believers of which the birthing is a must or none can see or understand the things of God.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we Him no more.

How do we know Him now? 1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Now? What is the only thing left to come?

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Ephesians 2:15-16 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

In Himself now, one new new man in one body.

Christ in you the hope of Glory. One new man, a new creature in Christ.

This is the only thing left in our salvation, all else is accomplished in Christ, for, "as He is so are we in this world.

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

In Christ NOW: Phillip