Are sins forgiven before they are forsaken?

Dude, are you really a broken record? I think you need to get saved. I mean, all you want to talk about is sin and sinning. Out of the abundance of the heart does a man speak. Since you can't help but talk about sinning all the time, I can't help but think you are full of sin.

Have you nothing to say of the goodness and glory of God? Have you nothing to say about a joy unspeakable, and full of glory? Have you nothing to say about the greatness of the love of Christ? Have you nothing to say about the wonderful gifts God has given men? Have you nothing to say about anything that would cause us to put our faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, so as to exhort us to get out of the boat and walk on some water? Perhaps you can tell of the great miracles He has done? Maybe you can tell us something of God's creating of the world?

It is hard to move on to the deeper things of Christianity, when others don't even agree on basic Gospel truth like repentance. You can't go to College until after you have at least graduated Elementary School!

Actually, you can't go onto the deeper things because you don't know the deeper things. Even the writer of Hebrews, who knew his audience was young in their faith and unlearned, went on to talk about the priesthood of Christ and it's relationship to the order of Melchizedek. He refused to hit the same drum over and over. For he realized that the best way to get others to grow was to move beyond the same foundational doctrines being put on repeat mode. Even our Lord when He walked the earth regular taught on things that His disciples simply could not comprehend. Be he taught them anyway, so that when the light finally did click on in their heads, they would begin to walk accordingly.

I've seen numerous essays you have written, constant posts, etc. Never have you ever once shown you understand anything about God other than faith and repentance and faith and repentance. It's all you know, but even that, you don't really have an understanding of. Your moral government theology has crippled your spiritual growth, and made you almost entirely retarded in regard to the things of God.

hi, o curser of darkness... all darkness ... just turn on the light...Jesus...the darkness flees.jimp

Besides, why make more personal attacks? Is it because you cannot refute the Scriptures that I posted? This seems to be a common tactic for many of you guys. I post Scriptures that contradict what you believe, so you resort to name calling, questioning my character, questioning my motives, and questioning salvation.

I'm not seeking to attack you. I'm simply seeking to show you very straight forward that you simply don't know as you ought to know, but pretend to anyway.

Don't turn this thread into a topic about me.

Actually Jesse, it's all about you anyway. It always is about you. Your moral government theology makes you king anyway.

David Wilkerson was right, nobody wants to hear repentance anymore.

And Keith Daniel was right, people call it legalism and bondage. They say we are under grace, not law, and therefore we can live however we want.

There are very few people here on Sermon Index that frequent this fine ministry that don't want to hear about repentance anymore. This is a very repentant group of people, a fine group of saints. And while you are busy quoting Wilkerson or Daniel in support of your position, will you be so quick to quote them when they clearly stand contrary to your moral government theology?

nobody wants to hear repentance
anymore

Maybe because repentance IS NOT the Gospel!!!!

BTW Jesse, don't you have your own forum on which to spread your stuff. Maybe you and logic can hang out there and stroke each others egos about how great you both are.

Ok, that's all from me.

Maybe because repentance IS NOT the Gospel!!!!

Amen!!! The gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ and the prophesied kingdom of God that was long anticipated by the prophets. It's the good news of how Jesus Christ who was crucified for our sins, came back to life after three days, and triumphed over all the kingdoms of this world and all the forces of hell. It's the good news of how we can be delivered from this present evil age as we look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and the ages to come, with Jesus Christ reigning as the center of all things. Yeah... repentance is part of that overall picture. But, the single element is not the story itself.

We all know where this will lead - his holiness truefaithsav will again, out of his ignorance and pride, assume that he is superior to all in this thread as he has done in other threads.

Guys, I think it would be best to leave his holiness truefaithsav alone with himself and his cohorts. Let them boast to each other of how holy they are.

Best stay away from his threads - they all lead to himself.

Again, if you don't believe that forsaking your sins comes before the forgiveness of sins, why can't you explain or refute all the verses I gave? You keep making posts but none of them address the issue.

You'll never forsake your sins unless you believe the gospel. And when you truly believe the gospel, you will forsake your sins. Why? Because you've believed the life altering claims of the gospel. What are those big claims? God has invaded this world through Jesus Christ, died on a cross for my sins, came back to life, and will soon come again. Each of these elements of the gospel, when believed, will drive men to true heartfelt repentance.

This is the beauty and logic of the gospel. I believe the gospel, and Christ has changed my mind and heart, how can I ever be the same again? How can I continue in sin? I was dead, but now I am alive. Everything is different. Old things have passed away, and all thin are now made new. That is the gospel, that is faith, and that is repentance.

Tell me Jesse, when are you going to get saved? You sin from time to time. Therefore, you have clearly not forsaken all of your sins and repented, and have not got saved, according to your logic. In fact, according to your logic, you'll never know if you are going to heaven until you get there.

Do you love God with all your heart soul and mind 24/7?

As well as love your neighbor as yourself 24/7?

Sound words are of no avail to some,but wisdom is known of her children.

Therefore I offer what follows by Bill S. as a contribution to this thread and its readers:

I was there in the chambers and on the streets with them. I saw Jesus waiting in a groom's chamber. The bride was in another chamber. He was preparing to go in to see her. While He delayed, she was drawn to the window and became interested in the activities in the street. The appeal of the street tugged at her harlot heart until she wandered out there herself.

Soon after she walked out onto the streets she was raped. Her shame deceived her into believing that she had no other life but to become a prostitute, which she did. She was in a house of prostitution, locked behind huge, solid-oak, medieval doors. They looked formidable. They were bolted through with a braided kind of thing with copper on it and different kinds of ironwork.

Jesus went looking for her. He knew where she was. As He approached the doors, demons howled and hissed at Him and tried to rush Him, yet were cowardly toward Him. He opened the doors and went in. She was really a mess, and He pleaded with her to come with Him. In her guilt and shame, she refused, and so He left.

He waited a time and visited her again. Still, she wouldn't look Him in the face. Once again, He left her. As He was waiting in His chamber, fires of passion and anger suddenly flashed in His eyes. He stormed out of His chamber and strode down the street, approaching the house where His bride in harlotry abided.

Everyone saw Him coming. They fled to get out of His way. The demons took one look at Him and ran ahead of Him to lock the doors, hoping to prevent Him from entering. Without hesitation or pause in his stride, He hit those doors with the palms of His hands. POW! They exploded. Splinters went everywhere.

He walked in and found her withered in shame. Her face was hidden in her hands. This time was different though. This time He didn't ask her to come with Him. This time He grasped her hand, led her out, and took her back to the bride's chamber while she was still in her filth stained dress.

I could see the passion and love He had for her in His eyes. Jesus saw her only one way. He saw her as a virgin. Yet, she wouldn't even look at Him. He reached out, touched her gently, and lifted her face toward His. Hesitantly, she slowly lifted her eyes to look into His. He saw her beyond her shame and moved her beyond her shame. The moment her eyes connected with His, they were filled with the same passion for Him that He had for her.

I was right in there with them. I could almost see into their faces. I backed off and saw that she had changed. She was beautiful. She had the same radiance as did Jesus. They were one. There was no longing or attraction for anyone or anything other than for one another. She had eyes only for Him. She looked like Him, and He looked like her. They were standing in one light. He was not diminished at all, but she was increased in Him. Even though she looked like Him and had the same fire in her eyes as He had in His, she was still under His feet, still under His authority. That's what made it as beautiful as it was.

NOTE: This would also have just as well been posted on two other current threads, one where John MacArthur and Ray Comfort are being called heretics and the other which asks, 'Was the Apostle Paul a Hypocrite'.

I completely agree. When we truly believe, we will entirely repent. If we don't entirely repent, we do not truly believe. If a person holds on to even one sin, they have yet to put their faith in Christ.

Believing and repenting are two sides of the same coin of faith. When we truly believe the Gospel, we will repent of our sins. And when we repent of all our sins, God will forgive us of all our sins

Then you would do well, instead of beating people over the head on SI with constant talk of repentance, to do as the apostle Peter said, "to proclaim the excellencies of Him who called us out of darkness into His marvelous light." You see, when I hear about how awesome the Lord is, and what great things He has done and is presently doing, and all that is available to me by grace through faith, I naturally and simply want to repent and live a life pleasing to Him. But it's a life and repentance that issues out of faith.

It's like when a person who has lived in poverty their entire lives enters the house of somebody rich. Without even being told, the poor man knows there is a great difference between the rich man and him. When I, the chief of sinners, sees the greatness of the Lord, I'm aware of my own personal poverty before Him. "Woe is me, I am a man of unclean lips and live amongst a people of unclean lips, for my eyes have seen the Lord..." And all I can say is that after seeing the Lord, He doesn't make me want to be poor anymore! Rather, I want to be just like him.

This is faith and repentance. This is salvation.

truefaithsav wrote:
The Bible says "we keep his commandments" (1 John 3:22) and that is the test of whether you know God or not (1 John 2:3). It is possible for a Christian to sin and it is possible for a Christian not to sin (1 John 2:1). But we are not saved while we are sinning (Hebrews 10:26-31). If we sin, we must repent (Luke 13:3) and seek the Lord's forgiveness (1 John 1:9)

Dude, you are a pharisee. On what did Jesus say hinged all the law and prophets? Love God with all your heart and your neighbor too! Those are the only two that we are required to live everyday. Period.

You are preaching to the choir on this forum about repentance and holiness...

(edited for grammar and corrections)

Truefaithsave,

You don't lose your salvation every time you sin.

If you lost your salvation you would never be able to get it back according to Hebrews 6 & 10.

Paul called the Corinthians carnal. It is true that he told them that they should examine themselves. However, he did not tell them that they surely were not saved because they were carnal.

Galatians tells us that those who "practice" the works of the flesh will not inherit the Kingdom. First, there are different level sins. Secondly, there is a difference between diving into sin deliberately willingly and falling into sin through weakness and failure. A Christian can sin and remain saved yet they cannot practice top leve sins continually and deliberately.

Paul tells us in Romans that before we are saved we are slaves of sin. Therefore as slaves we cannot stop sinning. Therefore we do not stop sinning and then come before Christ righteous. We come to him broken and seeking mercy. That mercy and grace then transforms us therefore it is not Antinomianism.

You say that if we truly have faith then we will have perfect works. For works always follow and correspond with faith. This would be true. However, you have left something out. We do not have to have "perfect" faith to be saved. Therefore, our works do not need to be perfect.

It is true that a Christian can be free from sin or perfect. However, the way in which the Lord works is usually progressive. He takes us deeper and deeper. He tries us and then tries us harder and makes us more and more loving. One cannot say that our love has matched God's infinite love. Yet, we can have complete love that God has called us to.

We should not lower the level of what holiness is in order to say we have reached it. To think that all men are going to an eternal tormenting hell. That we are responsible in every one of our actions to work toward the goal of saving them. If ever we live for ourself in luxury in a piece of pizza or something that is an hour in which we could have been seeking the lost or using those funds to reach them when we could have been eating rice. Such a high calling it is to be holy as Christ is holy and we ought not to forget the loftiness of it though on the other side we can lift it higher then it is in some sense. Though the only out may be if in some way God gave us grace to eat that piece of pizza and did not call us or grace to the level to be eating rice.

I am not sure if you comprehend what it means to be "born again". It is receiving a new life and literal spiritual nature as a child of God. When you become a child of God you cannot die. Your new nature as a child of God cannot die. Even if it could die surely it could not be brought back to life.

There are false works and right works. All works that come from us before we are given life are dead works. These works are therefore not living, godly, loving works. The true works spring forth from the grace of God in us.

If we could make ourselves righteous there would be no need to be born again. No need for Christ to crucify us and raise us to newness of life. For our present or past life would be sufficient.

As for our nature being sinful. If you will read in Romans you will see a distinction between our "flesh" and our "members". It is true that our members or our body is not sinful in and of itself. The body can do good things like eat, give birth to children, ect. The flesh is our members mixed with sin or our fallen depraved nature. So our members/body are "neutral", however our flesh desires evil. When we are born again our flesh wars with our new nature and our members are in between and can be used for either good or bad as vessels.

Even if we did not have a sinful nature one must take into account that all men before coming to Christ are under the power of Satan. He is their god. They are enslaved and deceived by him. Mankind is not more powerful then Satan nor more intellectual and are under his mastery. The spirit of disobedience works in them and they are all under his sway.

I would write more, but I do not know what other topics to respond to. I do not hold to the extremity of Calvinism or Arminianism. I believe myself to be a reasonable person. I will not make personal attacks on you about this here and I think you are probably sincere in what you are promoting and in some ways understand where you are coming from. We want truth. We want to be Scriptural. However, we often have to fight past problems and misgivings that we have in this place or that for this or that reason which often takes work. We really must lean into the grace of God to lead us into the truth because there are surely many pits both big and small both boisterous and subtle.

Truefaithsav:

So it is clear that we must turn from our sins to get saved, and therefore we must stay away from our sins to stay saved. If we return to our sins, we must again repent and again ask the Lord for forgiveness.

Your first point has great scriptural support. I totally agree that without repentance, there is no remission. (I must agree. That is what scripture plainly says.)It is like there is a bank account set up in our name, but we must repent to activate the account and cause the payment to be applied.

The conclusion you reach based on the first statement is the one that is in error and has no Biblical support.

Let me give some passages to study. Hebrews 10:14. Forever in this passage means in perpetuity. It means from now forward. Romans 4:6-8. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord WILL NOT impute sin. Actually Romans 4 is an awesome chapter to camp out in for a while to understand the grace and forgiveness of God.

Anonymity made some good points that you might consider in this discussion. One is based on Hebrews chapter 10. Verse 26 says that if we willfully sin after coming to knowledge of the truth there remains no more sacrifice for sin. Now, you have never committed a sin on accident in your life. Every action passes through the mind and is decided upon before we take the action. According to your own interpretation, you and I are lost forever, unless you have committed NO actions of sin since you were born again.

Brother, the ACTIONS of sin are not the problem. The problem is the spirit, the nature, the heart of sin. When we are born again, it is our spirit that is born again, made righteous, perfected forever. Later in Hebrews 10 we find that it is when we turn back unto perdition, when we deny our salvation that we lose it, not when we commit an action of sin. Hebrews 6:4-5 speaks to this as well.

I am familiar with how you are seeing this thing. I came from a pretty traditional pentecostal background that taught something similar. Really, it is just a "New Testament" form of what Paul dealt with in the book of Galatians. When we are born again, it is by no work of our own. We do not "stay" born again by any work of our own either. The Galatians were accepting salvation by grace initially but then were turning back to the OT law and saying that to stay right with God you now had to keep the law as well. Paul called it foolishness and said they were bewitched. He said they had fallen from grace to say that they start in grace but are now made perfect by works.

This scares many people who are focused on actions and appearance, who don't understand the grace of God. They say, "Wait a minute. This cannot be. This means you can commit sin and still be right with God. I am confused."

When I am born again, my nature (just another way to say the part of me that is really me, my spirit) is changed, transformed, regenerated, born again. Though the law of sin is still at work in my members (an unrenewed mind and possibly a body that is still dealing with physical addiction, etc.), my spirit is perfected, made righteous, in communion and fellowship with the Holy Spirit. That born again spirit does not want me to sin. I have a choice to make. Do I die to self in a situation, or do I sin. Oh to be dead to self and alive unto God. But how do I die to self? ONLY through the grace of God. In fact, I can do nothing apart from His grace. I lean on Him for everything, strength to stand and forgiveness when I fail. Titus 2:12 shows us that it is God's grace that teaches us to walk in holiness. It is a process of growth that will be ongoing until I reach eternity.

Sin is not good. Sin does not please God. A man who is born again will not desire to walk in sin. Sin hardens our hearts toward God. Sin ties God's hands in our behalf in many cases so He cannot do in our lives what He wants to. We need to grow in holiness. We need to allow the fruits of righteousness (which are actions of holiness) to be made manifest in us. But, we do not need to frustrate the grace of God by saying that each infraction leads us back into an unregenerate state.

Brother, I ask that you do one thing for me. So often we are convinced we are right. We are convinced that the way we were taught is right. We know, love, and respect people who have taught us. It is hard for us to do anything but try to defend our stand on the issue. I ask that you lay aside your defense and simply dig into scripture for yourself, humbly asking God to show you the truth in this area. After all, neither you or I want to stand before God having stubbornly held our own doctrinal stance to the end only to find that we have missed it because we did not want to consider anything else. Lay aside the discussion for a season and devote yourself to prayer and study on the grace of God.

From one who has realized he has been in error many times and has had to come into agreement with the Word at the expense of his own belief, God Bless you as you continue to grow.

Travis.

Brethren,

This forum is not the place to proliferate one's own doctrine or "ism" - be it Calvinism, Arminianism, Pelgianism. There are other places for that on the internet, places that thrive off the strife and contention such topics bring, and as result become spiritually toxic. We are committed to not allowing SI be transformed into that sort of thing.

That said, there has been a noticeable increase in moral governement threads lately, a perceived "spamming" of this theology within the forum walls. This behavior is forbidden - be it any type of doctrinal system - per forum guidelines. If the Calvinists cannot have sway here to proliferate their doctrine, neither can the Pelagianists. Please do not construct any more threads of this nature.

Brother Paul