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Swine Flu H1N1 should you get it done??

S
sermonindex

This is a serious issue and I want to bring this question to the table.

Today my Sister and her children were vaccinated. My Mother is now going to have it done. My stomach went sour when she told me that, and I asked another Christian if they were going to do it to and she said that she had her's done last week. A brother said that he wasn't going to have it done.

I work in a Care Facility and I am wondering if I too should have it done? I am at odds with this, wanting to trust God and at the same time using common sense. I've been down the road in trusting God for many things and He has always been there. But I have also observed and heard about others who have trusted God (supposedly) and die because they stopped taking their medication or went so long without treatment. I've seen people say that "God will raise me off the sick bed", they died with their sickness.

Should we take these types of chances? Unless you hear from God Himself, should we do like the woman with the issue of blood, spend all that we have in treatment? In other words, do what we know to do until faith has an opportunity to heal.

If you cut your finger off by accident by using the saw, do you pray about it first, or do you stick it back on wrap it and put it in ice and rush to the hospital? I am serious, there are Christians that really think this way. In dire straights, someone bleeding to death and they are praying. While they are praying the person dies, they bury him, he's gone. What did the praying do?

When my brother was choking on a hot dog, my father grabbed him stuck his finger down his throat and retrieved the obstruction, what if he stopped and prayed instead? My brother would have been dead.

There is a place for prayer, but there is also a place for emergencies and quick action is vital if we want to save lives. In my profession, there is no room for praying (though I do pray to myself on the job). If the house was on fire and I have to get residents out, praying ain't going to get them out. I have to get them out. If I don't, the law will not understand my reasoning. "I was praying your honour, seeking God for the best course of action". While the building is burning, I am waiting for instructions from the LORD. Sounds stupid doesn't it?

I am not belittling prayers so don't go there.

I am talking about common sense, faith, times to act and the right thing to do.

50 Million people died in 1918 (more than the first war) of the Spanish Flu and they had no vaccine in those days. My Great Aunt had it and she went down to skin and bones but she survived and lived to be almost 100 years.

I wonder if it's trusting God that I am concerned about OR is it failing God for not trusting Him?

Your thoughts on the vaccine is very important to me. Let me know if you have taken it and why? And also those of you who refuse to take it and why?

Thank you

M
MaryJane

Greetings Deepthinker

I think that you will get the same answers here that you have from others that you know. Some seem to feel strongly that getting this shot is safe and have no concerns in doing so, while others seem to feel that it is not safe for them to do so. I have been praying about this for awhile now and am following what I and my husband feel the Lord leading us to do. We are not getting this shot. My oldest son was told by the doctor that he has already had H1N1, he was sick for about two weeks and is now feeling much better.(I should mention he became sick before the shot was made available) Having said that I should also mention that we have never gotten any of the flu shots offered so not getting this one is not all that different for us. I have had my children vaccinated with other shots from the time they were little and never felt unsafe in doing so. As Ginnyrose said on the other thread, Polo was a devastating disease. My dad suffered with it as a child and then again in the years before his death. I thank God there was a vaccine available for my children.

As for going to the doctor, when I or someone in may care has become sick I check to see what is wrong and then I pray about it. Clearly when my son was in a bicycle accident and was lying on the ground with a head injury and two broken arms I knew at once that God was urging me to react, to get him help and I did so. Many prayers went up during that time, that the doctor would be careful and mindful during the surgery, that no infections or complications would set in and so forth. Then there have been other times when the Lord has clearly shown me to wait and not go to the doctor and I was faithful during those times as well to submit myself to His will. In both of these cases I put my faith and trust in the Lord and He provided for me and my family.

I do not think there is a one size fits all kind of answer to your question except to trust in what the Lord is leading you personally to walk out whether that be to get this shot or not. After praying about this place your trust in Him and walk out what He shows you. Seek God daily in all things,submitting yourself unto His leading. Can't go wrong if you do.

God Bless
mj

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Leo_Grace

Dear DeepThinker,

I can understand people who may refuse the vaccine because they believe it to be unsafe. It has been rushed and approved for release on emergency basis, so it hasn't gone through the various confirmatory tests to prove it's safety. On this basis, refusal is understandable.

What I don't agree with is people who would refuse because they think having a vaccination means lack of faith in God. This is simply a false understanding of faith. Faith is believing that God can accomplish his purpose for us, including healing us when we are sick. But faith is also believing that he is all-powerful, able to use any and all available resources for his disposal.

For example, he directs chosen missionaries to travel thousands of miles in order to preach the gospel to the unsaved. He could easily win lost souls as he did with Paul, blind them with his presence, terrify them with his voice, and win them to himself by the power of his divine will - but he does not normally do this. He chooses to use men and resources to accomplish this rather that completing the work directly.

In my view, anyone who thinks taking medicine or going to a doctor signifies a lack of faith in God - that person is the one short of faith. Short of faith for underestimating God's ability to control our situation and provide for us through others, and short of faith for not knowing enough of scripture to realize that God works in all things.

[i]Ro 8:28 And we know that [b]in all things[/b] God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.[/i]

Believers who take medicine and go to the doctor don't forget who the greatest physician is - we pray for God to guide the hand of our surgeons, or to lead our doctors to the right treatment. God is never out of the picture.

L
Leo_Grace

Regarding the H1N1 flu, I and my whole family have gotten it and recovered. We caught it before vaccine was available.

H1N1 is not like other types of flu. It attacks the respiratory system such that, if you have a preexisting condition, your life could be in danger. Except for extended bouts of coughing, my wife and kids shrugged off this flu easily.

In my case, since I was recovering from major surgery and still a bit weak from previous chemotherapy, I experienced prolonged high fever and developed pneumonia. There was a point when breathing became quite difficult for me. But with loving care from my wife and kids, I pulled through. It is not something that you would want to catch if your breathing is already compromised.

G
ginnyrose

We have not taken this shot and do not plan to. Why? Common sense.

This site helped shape my opinion about it.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/10/24/CBS-Reveals-that-Swine-Flu-Cases-Seriously-Overestimated.aspx?sms_ss=facebook

ginnyrose

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nearthecross

The following website was specifically created to combat the misinformation, distortion, and confusion regarding the Swine Flu and the new vaccine:
http://swineflu.mercola.com

I
IWantAnguish

Statistics show that H1N1 is around 400% less lethal than the seasonal flu.

Is that worth a taking a vaccine with mercury and squalene?

For some people yes, others no.

S
sermonindex

Thank you for your answers so far. I am mainly bothered by my Mother taking it. She has never taken a flu shot, but she has a dedicated relationship with my Sister and basically she is following her lead. I am very concerned, and my insides feel like they are going to burst because of the anxiety of her doing something like this. I feel that it's not right to take.

Phil 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
Your answers have been encouraging. I felt the need to express this question in this forum as it's really weighing heavy on my mind in regards to my kin.

I ask that anyone that feels led, to help me pray for my Mother that she make the right decision. Thank you

G
ginnyrose

really weighing heavy on my mind in regards to my kin.

I can appreciate your concern but may I suggest you just relax? Taking this shot is not a sinful thing to do. Taking it or not taking it will not determine ones destiny...

Blessings,
ginnyrose

L
Lysa

DT,

No matter how much you love her, you can't tell your mother what to do! Ginnyrose does bring it down to the nitty gritty!!

nearthecross was correct about Mercola! If you have to take the vaccine because of work, you can read the following excerpt from an article on his website:

Excerpt of [url=http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/09/19/The-Truth-about-the-Flu-Shot.aspx]What To Do if You are Forced to Take Swine Flu Shot [/url]:

The Following was composed by Dr. Russell Blaylock as a method to reduce autoimmune reactions to the flu vaccines only. Do not use this if you have the flu itself. These are just general observations and not medical advice. You should work with your doctor for a specific program.

Treatment for Toxic Vaccine Exposure

1. Place a cold compress on the site of the injection immediately after the injection and continue this as often as possible for at least two days. If symptoms of fever, irritability, fatigue or flu-like symptoms reoccur -- continue the cold compresses until they abate. A cold shower or bath will also help.

2. Take fish oils -- I recommend the Norwegian fish oil made by Carlson Labs -- it has the correct balance of EPA and DHA to reduce the cytokine storm. The dose is one tablespoon a day -- if severe symptoms develop -- two tablespoons a day until well and then switch to one tablespoon a day. Children -- one teaspoon a day.

3. Curcumin, quercetin, ferulic acid and ellagic acid as a mixture -- the first two must be mixed with extravirgin olive in one teaspoon. Take the mix three times a day (500 mg of each)

4. Vitamin E (natural form) 400 IU a day (high in gamma-E)

5. Vitamin C 1000 mg four times a day

6. Astaxanthin 4 mg a day

7. Zinc 20 mg a day for one week then 5 mg a day

8. Avoid all immune stimulating supplements (mushroom extracts, whey protein) except beta-glucan -- it has been shown to reduce inflammation, microglial activation and has a reduced risk of aggravating autoimmunity, while increasing antiviral cellular immunity.

9. Take a multivitamin/mineral daily (one without iron -- Extend Core)

10. Magnesium citrate/malate 500 mg of elemental magnesium two capsules three times a day

11. Vitamin D3:
....1 All Children -- 5000 IU a day for two weeks after vaccine then 2000 IU a day thereafter
....2 Adults -- 20,000 IU a day after vaccine for two weeks then 10,000 IU a day thereafter
....3 Take 500 mg to 1000 mg of calcium citrate a day for adults and 250 mg a day for children under age 12 years.

12. Avoid all mercury-containing seafood

13. Avoid omega-6 oils (corn, safflower, sunflower, soybean, canola and peanut oils)

14. Blenderize parsley and celery and drink 8 ounces twice a day

15. Take Jatoba tea extract (add 20 drops in on cup of tea) one day before the vaccine and the twice a day thereafter. (you can get it at [url=http://www.iherb.com/Amazon-Therapeutics-Jatoba-1-oz-30-ml/14429?at=0]http://www.iherb.com/Amazon-Therapeutics-Jatoba-1-oz-30-ml/14429?at=0[/url]) It is inexpensive.

S
sermonindex

Oh don't misunderstand my plight Brother and Sisters, it's not that it's a sin, no not at all. What my concern is is the drug itself. I am not opposed to taking medications I take them myself, my concern is this particular drug. I just have a bad feeling about it. I hope what I am sensing is from the LORD, but sometimes our own discernment can be our own and not the LORD because of the love we have for our kin.

My Mother is not the type of woman that likes being told what to do, she had all that from my father, so I don't remind of her of that by telling her what to do, she'll only clam up. For her, I only pray that God will speak to her as she is a called out one. But if not, then God must be honoured for His wisdom in this situation.

After an evening of prayer and reflection, I have a settled peace about the matter. And thank you all for your love and support, it's good to know that we can come here and share and be a family.

Mary Jane, that was a very good post. I agree with you and do the same too and also the other posters.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi IWantAnguish...

Statistics show that H1N1 is around 400% less lethal than the seasonal flu.

Is that worth a taking a vaccine with mercury and squalene?


Can you provide a citation for this?

As for me, I am certainly praying that my wife and I will remain healthy. However, I see no problem with taking vaccines -- including the current swine flu vaccine. I have studied this quite a bit...and even more intensely since the last thread about the matter. I was preparing a list of the sources, facts, myths, and rumors. I still might try to get it together (but I have been a bit busy). I also have a Christian friend from college who now works as a senior scientist at a pharmaceutical company in the Research Triangle (just up the road from Krispy). He was one of the leads in the development of one of the main swine flu vaccines. He said that they are aware of the rumors about the vaccine, and are doing their best to "answer those concerns and debunk many of the misstatements." One of the claims -- that "[i]the doctors and scientists who created the vaccine have not taken it themselves[/i]" -- is simply untrue. My friend explained that every scientist on his team has taken the vaccination.

As far as many of the myths about the swine flu vaccine, the US Department of Health and Human Services actually [url=http://www.flu.gov/myths/index.html]set up a website[/url] to address many of the rumors. The CDC [url=http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/updates/thimerosal.htm]also opened up a website[/url] to answer concerns, rumors and misconceptions about Thimerosol (although this website was opened much earlier because this was used in flu vaccines for decades).

I actually work for a biotech company that designs devices for medical (mostly cancer) treatment. Part of my job is to analyze, criticize and review data that is used in academic, scientific, medical and engineering journals before they are published. These are peer reviewed research articles, which are not biased one way or the other. As a result, they include the evidence and a great amount of scrutiny. As part of my job, I have access to most articles included on PubMed and other medical research databases. Thus far, I haven't found a single article that validates many of the rumors included in anti-vaccination articles. Of course, I am still looking. However, the vast plethora of articles on vaccinations (including influenza and H1N1 vaccinations) conclude that these vaccinations are safe and effective.

I would urge those who are hesitant toward vaccinations to [u]always[/u] remain hesitant about any medical vaccination or treatment. Honest and sincere research is the key toward a greater understanding of such things. I urge individuals to NEVER take a vaccination or a treatment unless they have thoroughly reviewed it. At the same time, I would also urge believers to not be given over to rumors. There are plenty of rumors that are being uttered within the context of the discussion in many (if not most) of the anti-vaccination websites. If you are going to make a statement about such matters, it would be helpful to include a citation from where you gathered this information. A good citation is NOT an article in an anti-vaccination website. Rather, it would be much better to gather the source. Thus, a good article would be the credible, peer-reviewed sources from which the anti-vaccination articles based its conclusions.

Anyway, I might still gather some information together and include it here. Unfortunately, I cannot provide any of the articles from the medical database (contained at PubMed, etc...) since they must be personally purchased (and they are extremely expensive). I do urge anyone else who has a research-level PubMed account to search through these articles for themselves.

I will say this too. The swine flu vaccination is no more dangerous than the flu vaccination taken by millions of individuals (and more than a billion people) last year. The oft-criticized preservatives are included in several major vaccinations. The swine flu vaccination is comprised of exactly the same makeup of every flu vaccination for over a decade, with the exception of the strain of flu that is targeted. Many researchers have examined the accusation that vaccinations containing Thimerosal are linked to autism. So far, every major attempt to ascertain just a link literally could find no valid link whatsoever. While reported diagnoses of autism have increased dramatically since 1990, the cause for this has yet to be ascertained (including the possibility of previous underreporting). In addition, this preservative has been used in many other vaccinations (and even even anti-venoms) too.

Like many other believers, I feel that vaccinations are perfectly acceptable measures of preventive medicine. They have effectively eliminated many dreadful diseases from the nations where vaccinations are readily available (or even mandatory). Polio, smallpox, diphtheria and many others have been all but eradicated by vaccinations. There is a serious concern that H1N1 could mutate slightly and become just as dangerous as the 1918 flu pandemic that killed 50 Million people on Earth and effected 500 Million people. A third of the people living on Earth at the time contracted the flu...and one out of every 10 who contracted it died. This vaccine has been shown to be effective against the swine flu.

It is up to the person regarding whether or not they want to accept the vaccination. I suggest that one would not only access the supposed risk of taking the vaccination, but also the risk of not taking it as well. Of course, as children of God, we should remain in prayer as well. We should not fear the "terror by night" (Psalm 91:5). At the same time, I think that we should be good stewards of this earthly Temple of the Holy Spirit.

L
Leo_Grace

I would urge those who are hesitant toward vaccinations to always remain hesitant about any medical vaccination or treatment. Honest and sincere research is the key toward a greater understanding of such things. I urge individuals to NEVER take a vaccination or a treatment unless they have thoroughly reviewed it. At the same time, I would also urge believers to not be given over to rumors.

Good advice. Thank you, Chris.

I
IWantAnguish

During a typical year in the United States, 30,000 to 50,000 persons die as a result of (seasonal)influenza viral infection. Frequently cited numbers are 20,000 deaths each year, and 37,000 annual deaths. About 5-10% of hospitalizations for influenza lead to fatal outcome in adults.

[url=http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/]Stats for H1N1[/url]

H1N1 is a wussy excuse for a pandemic.

G
ginnyrose

My Mother is not the type of woman that likes being told what to do,

uh,huh....she is not the only mom like that on this globe...you can't tell those kind of folks [i]anything[/i]. Once their mind is made up, you can't change it - usually. You can try, but I would not sweat it. Do as you please but know that some old folks get well set in their ways. And I would suppose some folks would say the same about me.. :-( Now THAT is unsettling. :-?

ginnyrose

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nearthecross

An excerpt from:
http://swineflu.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/10/27/Obama-Declares-Swine-Flu-Emergency.aspx

[b]One Thousand Deaths from Swine Flu?![/b]

Oh really?

Well I am from Chicago and I want to see the evidence. If you read Obama's declaration, you will find a complete absence of documentation to support his assertion that 1000 have died from H1N1 in the US. Nada, nothing no links, no references anywhere in the document to back up his assertion.

In fact, if you go to the definitive collector and holder of the US data, you will find that there is NO evidence to back this claim.

The CDC's own web site readily admits that since August 30, 2009 they are no longer testing for H1N1. They don't even recommend it any more. They are substituting a clinical definition for blood testing that will positively confirm that the "suspected" cases of H1N1 influenza are actually H1N1 influenza.

They've even coined what appears to be a whole new term: "ILI," which stands for "influenza-like illness."

The CDC H1N1 flu site reads:

"... tracking of 2009 H1N1 hospitalizations and deaths will not be the same after August 30, 2009.

In an effort to add additional structure to the national 2009 H1N1 reporting, new case definitions for influenza-associated hospitalizations and deaths were implemented on August 30, 2009.

The new definitions allow states to report to CDC hospitalizations and deaths (either confirmed OR probable) resulting from all types of influenza, not just those from 2009 H1N1 flu.

1. Influenza and pneumonia syndrome hospitalizations and deaths may be an overestimate of actual number of flu-related hospitalizations and deaths, but CDC believes influenza and pneumonia syndromic reports are likely to be a more sensitive measure of flu-associated hospitalizations and deaths than laboratory confirmed reports during this pandemic.

However, the syndromic reports of all hospitalizations and deaths recorded as either influenza or pneumonia will mean that the case counts are less specific than before and will include cases that are not related to influenza infection."

Folks, make no mistake about it. Health officials and media WILL trumpet these numbers as being H1N1 "swine flu deaths" even though, as you can CLEARLY read on the CDC's site, they admit that they will now include hospitalizations and deaths that are not even RELATED to the common influenza infection, let alone H1N1.

Well, no wonder the flu appears to be spreading when they are now including mere "symptoms of flu," which the CBS investigation found were NOT EVEN INFLUENZA RELATED in the overwhelming majority of cases!

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi IWantAnguish...

H1N1 is a wussy excuse for a pandemic.

As with any viral outbreak, the concern is that it can turn into a pandemic. The 1918 flu pandemic started slowly with a similar strain of H1N1, but eventually killed 50 Million people out of the 500 Million who became infected within two years. The vaccine is a precaution to prevent a more potent mutation.

Regardless, the swine flu vaccine is proven in lab tests to protect individuals from the flu. According to scientists at the CDC, FDA, US Department of Health and the pharmaceutical companies, this isn't even open to debate. Someone could try and debate the possible side effects, but it is substantiated through tests and trials that the swine flu vaccine is highly effective as a preventive medicine. The number of deaths that you cited could probably be lessened if individuals actually took a seasonal flu vaccine to begin with.

A
ADisciple

I found the following rebuttal to Mercola by Joseph Albietz.
[url=http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2116]http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2116[/url]

Personally I find it difficult to make a reasoned decision regarding this. I just don't feel I am knowledgeable enough.

What my heart greatly desires is to see the Lord's name glorified.

I think of Psalm 91. "He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty." And then it goes on to show the security of those who abide in that Secret Place. NO evil of any kind will befall them (Ps. 91.10).

It seems that we as a people have not come to that yet. We try to make the same reasoned decision that even unbelievers are trying to make.

Does not God have something higher for us? I know... there are those who have tried to fulfill scriptures like this in their own strength and presumption, withholding medication from a child... and then the child dies...

And so what does it take for the truth in this psalm to become our experience?

...That's what I'm asking, seeking, knocking on the Lord's door about.

Days are at hand when we are going to need this reality, days when vaccines and medications simply are not going to be an option.

I
IWantAnguish

Do you trust the CDC, FDA, US Department of Health, and the giant pharmaceutical companies?

Do you know how much profit these companies are making off of this mass vaccination?

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi nearthecross...

I would warn you that Dr. Mercola (the owner and business owner of the website that you linked and cited) is NOT an MD (he is an DO). He has been under investigation in the past for marketing drugs that were not approved by the FDA and embraces (and even markets) medical practices that are not shown to hold much if any medical weight, (such as Eastern herbal and alternative medical procedures [such as acupuncture]). He is a proponent of a wide array of controversial techniques (such as the controversial "Emotional Freedom Technique" that delves into "energy fields" and Chinese acupuncture techniques).

I suggest that you consider these things when weighing the opinion of the source.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi IWantAnguish...

Do you trust the CDC, FDA, US Department of Health, and the giant pharmaceutical companies?

I don't "trust" them verbatim. Rather, I consider the [u]same[/u] evidence that is presented to them and then consider whether or not it is valid. It is all about testing everything...and holding on to that which is good. So far, the arguments against vaccinations do not seem to withstand much medical scrutiny whatsoever.

At the same time, I can ask you if you trust the sources that you have gathered that helped you reach your own opinion. Yet, it isn't the sources that are as important as is the results from the medical research and clinical trials.

Do you know how much profit these companies are making off of this mass vaccination?

Is this a legitimate question? Do you know the specific answer yourself? Or are you alleging that the entire industry is somehow in cahoots with the CDC, FDA, US Department of Health? For the amount of time and effort that is spent looking for a vaccine, I think that the $15 that it costs to prevent the swine flu is actually quite inexpensive. In addition, the vaccine is provided free to low income Americans.

Still, it isn't helpful to the discussion if we shift the argument from the medical question about the effectiveness of the swine flu vaccination to accusations of capitalistic profiteering of the research companies that create the vaccine.

H
HeartSong

"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen."
- 1 Timothy 6:20-21

EDIT: Forgive me Chris. This arrow was aimed at you, but it should have been aimed at the enemy. God bless you!

I
IWantAnguish

Billions of dollars handed over by US citizens to private companies for a rushed vaccine to protect against a weak virus.

A 'national emergency' flu that kills less people than the normal flu.

What's the big deal? Honestly.

The media has hyped this thing up so much its ridiculous.

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nearthecross

I would warn you that Dr. Mercola (the owner and business owner of the website that you linked and cited) is NOT an MD (he is an DO). He has been under investigation in the past for marketing drugs that were not approved by the FDA and embraces (and even markets) medical practices that are not shown to hold much if any medical weight, (such as Eastern herbal and alternative medical procedures [such as acupuncture]). He is a proponent of a wide array of controversial techniques (such as the controversial "Emotional Freedom Technique" that delves into "energy fields" and Chinese acupuncture techniques).

I certainly don't agree with the EFT and other new age nonsense he believes in, but there is a lot of great information on his site.

Yes, he has been accused of quackery. I believe you obtained that information from quackwatch.com, right? The site of Stephen Barret, MD, who condemns basically ALL in alternative medicine as quacks! To be fair, he has pointed out some real quacks and frauds. However, he clearly is very biased and on a mission to discredit all in alternative medicine.
And yet surprisingly (and then again...not so surprisingly), there's hardly any articles in his site exposing the quacks and scams in the PHARMACEUTICAL industry!

Read a good article about him here:
http://www.raysahelian.com/quackwatch.html

I've known nutritionists and hollistic medicine practicioners to joke about that site, saying that you haven't "made it" into the world of alternative medicine until you get your name on Quackwatch.com! :-)

Dr T. Collin Campbell, professor emeritus of nutritional biochemistry at Cornell University, and one of the world's most foremost authorities on nutrition, said this about Barret's rejection of alternative medicine:

"I've known Stephen Barret's work for many years...He and some of his colleagues have been taking that approach...supposedly identifying who are quacks and who are not. I really strongly disagree with his opinions. For one thing he's very Maccarthyist, in the sense that somehow he and others can decide what's a quack and what's not. In the earlier days, for example, that group, including Stephen Barret, took a strong stand against dietary recommendations to consume more vegetables and fruits and grains. They got involved in the American Council on Science and Health, to be specific. And the American Council on Science and Health is basically supported by Industry. [u]They're looking out for industrial interests[/u]."

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi IWantAnguish...

Again, the diligent concern is that this could turn into another mutated form of H1N1...like the 1918 H1N1 flu pandemic that ultimately killed 50 Million people around the world. The rapid spread of this particular strain IS of concern to the medical community, because it mirrors the early rate of the 1918 pandemic. That early strain happened to mutate into something far more deadly.

This is what the "big deal" is about. While the media may have hyped it, it is still something that bears scrutiny.

Your accusation about the pharmaceutical companies is somewhat disingenuous. First, you are claiming that it is a "weak virus," a claim which is highly dubious at best and lacks any sort of credible medical opinion whatsoever. Secondly, you are claiming that this vaccine was "rushed." It has followed the exact same procedures as other vaccines for seasonal influenza strains. Finally, I don't know where you are getting your "billions of dollars handed over by US citizens" for this flu vaccine. The "private companies" have actually donated millions of doses to the elderly and poor.

If every single American (300 Million) were to pay $15 for the vaccine, it would accumulate to just over $4.5 Billion. Of course, the hospitals, doctors, pharmacies and clinics that actually give the vaccine also must pay their employees. In addition, this figure must include the cost of research, development, production and distribution of 300 Million doses of vaccine...as well as the need to educate the public against myths and misleading rumors. Thus, the total "profits" are much less than this figure. I must ask: Do you have a real figure for your claim? Or are you simply repeating a accusatory rumor?

We must not be given to rumors. As believers, if we are going to make specific claims, we should do our best to be accurate and attempt to provide ample evidence to validate our claims. In addition, we should be willing to perform the proper research necessary to "test everything" that we hear or read.

It is easy to point the finger at who we are "trusting" when we consider the vaccination process, but the same question can be asked to those who are against it too.

I
IWantAnguish

I was referring to the US citizens who paid for the vaccines through the Federal Government, which had to buy the vaccines from the private corporations; not the additional out of pocket amount of however much the vaccine cost an individual citizen to get their personal vaccination.

[url=http://abcnews.go.com/Business/big-business-swine-flu/story?id=8820642]Here's one of many links.[/url]

As an economics major, its easy to spot the game of supply and demand.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi IWantAnguish...

I was referring to the US citizens who paid for the vaccines through the Federal Government, which had to buy the vaccines from the private corporations; not the additional out of pocket amount of however much the vaccine cost an individual citizen to get their personal vaccination.

That's fine...but it still does not address the fact that the pharmaceutical companies (or the millions of Americans who invest in those companies) are not getting "rich" from the swine flu vaccination. This is, after all, a free market economy. The pharmaceutical companies aren't a charity. They have to get the money to research, develop, manufacture and provide 300 Million vaccinations from somewhere.

The $1.5 Billion from the federal government is pretty slim when you consider the amount of money spent on other government projects. In fact, the reinforcement of a single bridge near my home will cost nearly that same amount! In addition, we should also consider the cost of doing nothing. Sure, perhaps the mostly non-medical critics are correct and this is a "weak" strain of the H1N1 flu and nothing "bad" will happen. However, most medical experts feel that the risk of mutation is just too great.

50 Million people died from the 1918 H1N1 flu pandemic. This is certainly not a game. I suppose that if we could ask any of those who lost loved ones from that outbreak, they would agree.

N
nearthecross

50 Million people died from the 1918 H1N1 flu pandemic. This is certainly not a game. I suppose that if we could ask any of those who lost loved ones from that outbreak, they would agree.

How do you know this to be true? Sources, please? "Most doctors generally assume this to be true" is not good enough. I want facts, data, that clearly demonstrate that the people living in 1918 died of H1N1 and there were no other factors involved.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi nearthecross...

How do you know this to be true? Sources, please? "Most doctors generally assume this to be true" is not good enough. I want facts, data, that clearly demonstrate that the people living in 1918 died of H1N1 and there were no other factors involved.

Sure! In addition to looking it up in your local Encyclopedia or history book, you can consider the following links:

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol12no01/05-0979.htm

http://virus.stanford.edu/uda/

http://www.cdc.gov/EID/content/13/4/590.htm

http://www.webcitation.org/5gZqOpdgM

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/120718156/HTMLSTART

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/influenza_main.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/media/pressrel/r051005.htm

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/influenza/index.html

http://www.dmacdigest.com/flu1918.html

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol12no01/05-1370.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=HPDI_30wRsEC

[url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19834526?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=1]The New Zealand Medical Journal: Drowning as a result of pandemic influenza (1918 pandemic)[/url]

[url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19809872?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=6]The Journal of Viruses and Genes: An update on swine-origin influenza virus A/H1N1[/url]

[url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19809504?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=7]The Public Library of Science: Reassortment Patterns in Swine Influenza Viruses[/url]

[url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19797251?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=10]The Journal of Health Affairs: Lessons From The 1918-19 U.S. Influenza Pandemic[/url]

[url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19788357?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=11]The Journal of Clinical Infectious Diseases:
Salicylates and pandemic influenza mortality, 1918-1919 pharmacology, pathology, and historic evidence[/url]

[url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19768421?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=15]Current Topics in Microbiology and Immunization: Prioritization of pandemic influenza vaccine - rationale and strategy for decision making[/url]

[url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19707848?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=20]Journal of Neural Transmission: The influenza pandemic of 1918/19 and encephalitis lethargica: epidemiology and symptoms[/url]

These are some of the articles that I have read through. Some of them require access to PubMed database articles. Let me know if you would like to see more! Perhaps you could include the peer reviewed articles and peer reviewed studies that say otherwise?

L
Lysa

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
I would warn you that Dr. Mercola (the owner and business owner of the website that you linked and cited) is NOT an MD (he is an DO).

Center for Primary Care: [url=http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/primary-care/education/]Univ. of Rochester Medical Center[/url]

[b]DOs and MDs are alike in many ways:[/b]

Some DOs also use osteopathic manipulative treatment, or OMT. This is a technique in which the doctor uses his or her hands to help diagnose the injury or illness. Manipulations may then be used to improve circulation and nervous system functioning, to help the body heal itself.

[url=http://www.osteohome.com/SubPages/WhyChoose.html]The Osteopathic Home Page[/url]

The time spent in medical school and residency programs is virtually identical for DOs and MDs. DOs spend four years in medical school,

Osteopathic medical education places more emphasis on preventive medicine, body structure, osteopathic treatment and the importance of family practice. More than [b]75%[/b] of the DOs in the United States are in family practice, as opposed to only [b]25%[/b] of the MDs.

Osteopathic physicians, also trained in the use of drugs and surgery, [u]believe strongly in the self-regulating, self-healing, and self-repairing ability of the body[/u]. DOs are more likely to promote the body's own ability to heal itself through means as safe, non-intrusive and with a few side effects as possible.

There is much more but you can go to the website and read it for yourself!


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
He has been under investigation in the past for marketing drugs that were not approved by the FDA

The FDA has done that to a lot of people going the alternative route because they do their best to look busy trying to save us all the while trying to convince us "where would we be without" the pharmaceutical industry. lol

FOR MYSELF... going the alternative route has helped me much more than going the chemotherapy route ** but that was a very personal decision that I had to make for myself after much prayer. I hate putting shots or pills in my body. I have stopped eating sugar and even stopped wearing deodorant! No worries though, I DO wear organic deodorant, it doesn't last as long but I do not mind putting it on again half way through the day... at least I'm not putting all that aluminum in my body. (edit)One thing I had noticed, sometimes I don't need any extra deodorant because of the things I've stopped eating. Stuff like that makes sense to me!(/edit)

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
Hosea 4:6

Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge:
Isaiah 5:13

The fear of the Lord is THE way and knowledge of the holy is wonderful but I've been thinking that if we die before our time because we didn't care enough to get healthy so we can live longer to declare the works of the Lord, what good are we to our family?

You are young yet chris, I've hit the big five O; when I was young and vibrant like you, no one could have told me either. I don't blame you for thinking we are wacko's but if we are still here when you begin to hear your bones crack and catch; I hope you think back on these threads and how much fun you made of us!! LOL

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Lysa...

I suppose that I should clarify that I don't have anything against DOs or against many of the DO practices. Alternative medicine is just that -- an alternative form of medicine. However, I do have a strong concern against practices and medical advice that aren't proven, substantiated or verified by peer reviewed research.

In the case of this particular DO, Dr. Joseph Mercola embraces acupuncture, unproven herbalism and even invisible "energy fields" to diagnose illness. He has pointed out pharmaceutical companies with claims of "profiteering," but this man seems to make large profits from his wide array of alternative medical products. This was the basis for the FDA's verdicts against some of this claims within the marketing of his products.

Interestingly, I have noticed that many of the men (like Joseph Mercola) who speak against vaccinations are also marketing alternatives. They try to refute the validity of legitimate medical research findings, but oddly quote bits and pieces of others in an attempt to validate their own products.

I have no problem with individuals who seek out alternatives to traditional or mainstream treatment. I simply urge them to do their homework! It is never wrong to get a second (or third, fourth and fifth) opinion! This is the wise thing to do. We are encouraged in I Thessalonians 5:21 to "test everything." This is the basis of spiritual discernment. Strangely enough, it is also the basis for proving hypotheses too.

Scientists and doctors within the company that I work for have developed an alternative form of cancer treatment. They could not simply market the tool the very next day. It took over twenty years of study, case study and then limited implementation before the FDA finally approved the devices for widespread treatment. We constantly monitor and document the measured effectiveness of these devices in order to improve them and determine their effectiveness for various cancers and tumors. Yet, the effectiveness of these devices in treating different kinds of cancers is indisputable. I suppose that, initially, this too was a form of "alternative" treatment. The important thing is that the effectiveness of this treatment has been documented through long-term peer reviewed studies.

I would add that influenza vaccinations receive the same sort of investigative scrutiny by medical researchers. The current physical makeup of influenza vaccinations in the United States has remained the same for over a decade (even though the main strain used for treatment might differ). This government explanation is included in one of the citations within my initial post in this thread.

Like someone else pointed out, it does come down to a matter of trust. We are first to trust in God. Yet regarding the effectiveness or safety of the swine flu vaccine as preventive medicine, we can trust the research results from the medical research community...or we can trust the claims of those who are opposed to their conclusions. The other option is to trust no one. We can live our lives without preventive medicine such as a vaccine and live (or die) with the consequences of that choice. As always, our trust should remain firm in our Lord. Now, this is easier for me to decide in regard to myself. However, this decision is just a little more complicated when I think about my wife and family. With all of the research that I have performed, I have no problem recommending this vaccine to my family. In addition to the studies that I have seen, I have known plenty of people who have taken the swine flu vaccine...and there have been no reported side effects in any of them.

I also think that Natan and others have offered great advice concerning the treatment of this strain of the flu. Tamiflu is a great product that has been available for years and has demonstrated its effectiveness in battling the flu. Common sense techniques, like washing your hands well (especially with anti-bacteria soap), is good practice and a preventative measure too. And, of course, we should pray constantly.

S
sermonindex

Chris you have lightened my load with your knowledge on the subject, especially the facts on why the vaccine is needed to help combat the possibility of a mutation.

I was reading one site that (anti swine flu vaccination) that there is high levels of Mercury.

What are your thoughts on that?

H
HeartSong


The Conflict of Two Wisdoms - Part 1 by Art Katz

The Conflict of Two Wisdoms - Part 2 by Art Katz

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi DeepThinker...

To be honest, I had to do a little research into this. I had heard plenty of arguments about "high levels of mercury" in vaccinations for several years. I looked into it several years ago, but I didn't find anything that indicated much concern within the medical articles that I consulted.

The mercury that is contained in the vaccine is contained with an ingredient known as "thiomersal." The "mercury" in thiomersal is somewhat different than run-of-the-mill mercury found in old thermometers. This is an organomercury component used as a preservative, antiseptic, and antifungal ingredient. It is not only found in vaccines, but it is also found in numerous other products (including those that are ingested). In PubMed, there are quite a few publications where medical researchers have examined the effects of this preservative on the human body. According to all of the articles that I have seen (and according to the CDC, FDA and WHO), there is no evidence whatsoever that this preservative is dangerous in the dose amounts approved by the FDA.

Why is it used as a preservative? Vaccines contain active, greatly weakened versions (or imitations) of the virus. These are considered "live" cultures. For the vaccine to be effective, the vaccination must contain a "preserved" version of the weakened agent. The body's immune system then reacts to the weakened or imitation agent and strengthens itself against future "invasions" accordingly. According to the CDC, thiomersal is the best preservative agent. Without a preserving agent, the vaccine would be either highly ineffective...or even dangerous. Since it is difficult to maintain thiomersal effectively for children's doses, the FDA has begun using alternative methods for children's vaccinations. However, due to the nature of influenza vaccines, thiomersal is still used in children's vaccines as a preservative (unless or until something else can be found). Again, research indicates that the thiomersal dosage is still well within the "safe zone" for children.

According to my friend from college who works on the pharmaceutical team that created the current swine flu vaccine, some of the swine flu vaccinations do NOT contain thiomersal. However, he went on to say that in those that do, "the trace amount of thiomersal is exactly the same as in previous versions of the flu vaccination since 1990." He went on to tell me that "there has never been any indication that it is anything else but safe." As far as the amount of "mercury" in the vaccine, my friend stated that people who eat fresh fish or shellfish probably have ingested much more in a single meal. He went on to explain that it is found in even greater consistency within other medications (including nasal sprays and "allergy skin tests").

The [url=http://www.flu.gov/myths/index.html]website created by the US Department of Health and Human Services[/url] is dedicated to dispelling myths and rumors about the swine flu vaccine -- including questions about thiomersal. These are some of the myths/answers that are provided:

[b]“Vaccines that contain thimerosal are unsafe for children and pregnant women.”[/b]

It is safe for children and pregnant women to receive a flu vaccine that contains thimerosal.

Thimerosal is a very effective preservative that has been used since the 1930s to prevent contamination in some multi-dose vials of vaccines. There is no convincing evidence of harm caused by the low doses of thimerosal in vaccines, except for minor reactions like redness and swelling at the injection site.

The 2009-H1N1 influenza vaccines that FDA has licensed will be manufactured in several formulations, including pre-filled, single-dose syringes and nasal sprayers along with multi-dose vials. Only multi-dose vials of seasonal influenza vaccine will contain thimerosal to prevent potential contamination after the vial is opened. Single-dose units, however, will not require the use of thimerosal as a preservative. You may request this form of the vaccine if it is available. In addition, the nasal spray version of the 2009 H1N1 vaccine is produced in single-units and will not contain thimerosal.

[url=http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/thimerosal.htm]Read more about thimerosal.[/url]

[b]“The H1N1 vaccine includes adjuvants, such as squalene.”[/b]

None of the H1N1 vaccines currently distributed by the U.S. government contain adjuvants.

All H1N1 vaccines used in the United States are licensed by the FDA and are made in the same way as seasonal influenza vaccines are made. Currently, seasonal flu vaccines in the United States are also made without adjuvants.

If needed, an adjuvant is a component that can be incorporated into a vaccine to help to generate a stronger immune response to the vaccine and help prevent disease. Squalene is a compound found in many natural sources, such as olive oil, that can act as an adjuvant and is used as an adjuvant in vaccines in many countries.

The evaluation of any vaccine by the Food and Drug Administration considers the safety, effectiveness, and the immune response and includes consideration of all components of the vaccine.

[b]“The federal government is running a mandatory vaccination campaign.”[/b]

The federal government’s vaccination program for H1N1 flu is VOLUNTARY. Some hospitals and localities are requiring that health care workers get vaccinated for the flu, but that is a local decision. HHS and the CDC have included health care workers as one of our top priority groups to receive the vaccine, and several places across the country began offering H1N1 vaccination to health care workers this week.

The petition on a few selected internet sites protesting the federal government’s “mandatory” vaccination campaign is simply false in its claims. Vaccination is highly recommended as a protective measure against the flu, but is absolutely voluntary.

[b]“It costs too much money to get an H1N1 vaccine.”[/b]

The federal government has purchased the H1N1 vaccine and is providing it to the states free of charge. This is different in many places from the seasonal flu vaccine.

Public vaccination clinics (sponsored by local health departments at schools or other places) will offer vaccine at no charge. Some private providers may charge a small fee to administer the vaccine, but cost should not be a barrier to getting immunized. Many, many people and businesses have stepped up to the public health challenge we all face and are working together for the overall public good to make this vaccine free – or at least affordable – for all those who want it.

[b]“You need to get two doses of the H1N1 vaccine, and it takes a month between each dose.”[/b]

There is really good news that has come out of our clinical trials being run by the National Institutes of Health and the flu vaccine manufacturers. The H1N1 vaccine is a really good match with the H1N1 virus currently circulating across the country, and healthy adults and children 10 and older will need only one dose of vaccine.

Though scientists initially thought that two doses might be required, information from clinical trials has since demonstrated the H1N1 vaccine works faster than we expected and works well against the H1N1 virus, which is making millions of Americans sick.

It’s also fine to get the seasonal flu shot and the H1N1 shot at the same time. It is true that if you get the nasal spray form of the vaccine, you need to wait three to four weeks before getting another nasal spray vaccine.

[b]“This new vaccine is not safe and is untested.”[/b]

Clinical trials conducted by the National Institutes of Health and the vaccine manufacturers have shown that the new H1N1 vaccine is both safe and effective. The FDA has licensed it. There have been no safety shortcuts.

It is produced exactly the same way the seasonal flu vaccine is produced every year. It is simply a new virus strain. In fact, had H1N1 struck this country earlier than this spring, the H1N1 strain probably would have been included as part of this year’s seasonal flu shot.

Millions of Americans get the seasonal flu vaccine each year without any problems. Still, understanding that some Americans have concerns about “new” vaccines, the National Institutes of Health and the vaccine manufacturers have conducted more rigorous tests on the H1N1 vaccine than they do on other flu vaccines, and there have been no red flags from these clinical trials.

Also, CDC has stepped up surveillance efforts to track the H1N1 vaccine and any possible adverse events. Since it is so closely related to the seasonal flu vaccine, we do not expect to see serious side effects. But we are taking all the necessary steps to promote and monitor safety.

Our top doctors and scientists believe the risk of the flu, especially for pregnant women, children, and people with underlying health conditions, is higher than any risk that might come from the H1N1 vaccine.

[b]“I got an email that tells the story of someone who got a flu shot and had a miscarriage two days later.” [/b]

Tragically, every day in the U.S., people suffer from heart attacks, miscarriages, strokes, and other health-related events. Some result in serious illness, even death. For example, there are approximately 8,700 deaths from heart attack, 140 cases of Guillain-Barre, and 14,000 miscarriages in the U.S. every week. These events are no more common among people who have received seasonal flu vaccine than in people who have not.

The CDC has received no reports of serious adverse events from people who have received the H1N1 vaccine to date in the clinical trials or in the few places across the country where vaccinations have begun. We have created a strong new surveillance system that will allow us to track adverse reactions and quickly analyze whether there is a link to the vaccine.

[b]“You can get infected with H1N1 virus from eating pork.”[/b]

False. The 2009-H1N1 virus is not spread by food. Eating properly handled and cooked pork products is safe.

[b]“You can get flu from drinking water or swimming pools.”[/b]

Chlorinated tap water and swimming pool water does not put you at risk for flu. To date, we don’t know of anyone who has acquired flu from drinking water or from a swimming pool.

[b]“A 14-year old girl in the United Kingdom died after being vaccinated with the HPV vaccine.”[/b]

British scientists report this particular event was unrelated to the HPV vaccine and definitely unrelated to the H1N1 flu vaccine.

Public health officials in the UK have said the safety of the HPV vaccine was not in question, and no link can currently be made between the girl’s death and the vaccine. According to the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency—their counterpart to the FDA—the girl had a rare serious underlying medical condition that was likely to have caused her death.

Licensed seasonal flu vaccines have a long track record of safety based on use in hundreds of millions of people. H1N1 vaccines are being manufactured by the same methods as the seasonal flu vaccines administered every year.

Due to the persistent rumors circulating around the internet, the [url=http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/updates/thimerosal.htm]Center for Disease Control also has a website[/url] dedicated to the issue.

I hope this helps!

:-)

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi HeartSong...


The Conflict of Two Wisdoms - Part 1 by Art Katz

The Conflict of Two Wisdoms - Part 2 by Art Katz


"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen."

EDIT: Forgive me Chris. This arrow was aimed at you, but it should have been aimed at the enemy. God bless you!
- 1 Timothy 6:20-21


I'm not sure what it is that you are trying to say. I know that we can disagree on whether or not believers should take vaccines, medicine or even visit doctors. However, the fact remains that there are still people sick in this fallen world. Jesus said that "it is the sick who need a doctor" (Matthew 9:12 and Mark 2:17).

I disagree with the notion that sin is the root of all sickness. If this were true, babies would never get sick. In fact, Jesus covered this when he was asked about the man who was born blind. His disciples asked who sinned -- the man or his parents. Jesus responded, "Neither..." In other words, some people are simply born with an infirmity. We can certainly pray for those people. Similarly, we can pray that God provides for the poor. However, I feel that we can also do what we can within our own means and talents in the confines of this fallen world too.

"[i]I was sick, and ye visited me.[/i]" (Matthew 25:36).

*EDIT - Please forgive me if you feel that I am drowning out your voice from this discussion. This isn't my intention, and I certainly encourage your input too. Thank you, dear friend.

R
roaringlamb

Perhaps I am being a little simplistic towards this, but if you get the swine flu, so what?

Every child of God is indestructible until our Father decides their time is up. It is not like ANY of this has taken Him by surprise!

So, for me, to die is gain!

I
IWantAnguish

Perhaps I am being a little simplistic towards this, but if you get the swine flu, so what? Every child of God is indestructible until our Father decides their time is up. It is not like ANY of this has taken Him by surprise! So, for me, to die is gain!

My sentiments exactly... I really wouldn't mind dying off before everything hits the fan, but I have a feeling God will have me carry my cross a bit more before I go home. 8-)

N
nearthecross

Like several people said what it comes down to in the end is who you're willing to trust.

I don't see this as very different than the creation/evolution issue in the scientific world. Most scientists naturally [i]assume[/i] that evolution is true. That's what they have been taught at school and university. That's what they hear and learn about all the time. And they base all their studies on that assumption. They also assume that the peer-review system is unbiased (which it most certainly is not!). They assume that just because something is published in a science journal, it is credible evidence. They will often cite sources of studies, in an attempt to "prove" the validity of evolution.

So it would be extremely difficult for a Creation scientist to convince them of the lack of proof for evolution. The evolutionists will likely ask him to cite his sources. He may show them contradictory findings and flawed studies conducted by the evolutionists themselves. But for the most part, he won't be able to cite evolutionary studies, because they are so highly biased in favor of evolution. If he conducts a study of his own, it will either be rejected or ignored by the scientific community. He won't be able to get it published in any major scientific journal. And so an evolutionary scientist can say, "You don't have proof!" or "Your sources aren't trustworthy!" Or, "I've looked at all the major peer-reviewed studies and scientific journals, and so far, I haven't found a single article that validates creationism".

It's the same with conventional vs alternative medicine. Conventional medicine (that is, the medical establishment) largely ignores the research and findings of doctors and scientists in the orthomolecular, hollistic, or nutritional field, especially if they contradict the standard medical "dogma" of the day. The findings are either rejected or ignored. There are many historical examples of this. The FDA has laws that prohibit and limit the sale and distribution of vitamins and alternative methods to healing diseases. People like Stephen Barret are hired to spread disinformation in the form of books and wesites like Quackwatch.com. Doctors and scientists who don't believe that drugs are the answer are either ignored or labeled quacks. So the alternative field isn't even allowed to get its foot in the door of modern medicine.

And then come people like our brother ccchhhrrriiisss who demand proof that, for example, vaccines are bad for you. He does not accept the evidence you give him, however. The only thing he will accept is a peer-reviewed source from mainstream, conventional medicine. Just like the evolutionist demanding the creationist to cite sources from the evolutionary journals to disprove the evolutionary theory!

ccchhhrrriiisss, it seems this debate is going nowhere, and I don't think it profitable to continue in it. The only evidence you will accept and trust is the one that comes from conventional medicine and the pharmaceutical industry. People like me however, based on research and experience, generally do not trust those sources. And I don't see the need for potentially dangerous drugs and vaccines to prevent diseases; God has given us natural means to do that, namely vitamins, minerals, and nutrients that come mainly from a healthy diet.

So we'll have to agree to disagree.

Thanks for the links about the 1918 pandemic. I know that it was a historical occurrence, and that it can be found in history books and encyclopedias; I was mainly asking for any kind of statistical records or data that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the people died of the virus itself, and there were no other major factors involved (like aspirins, strep infections, etc.). I have convincing sources that point to other factors as the reason for so many deaths. But again, they go against the grain and will be considered as coming from quacks and fringe groups, so you probably won't accept them.

The follwing is a powerful documentary called, "Dying to Have Known". It's about the cure for cancer, and it's relevant to what we've been discussing. I would ask you to please watch it with an open mind, it's only about an hour and 20 mins long. There's another documentary by the same director called "The Beautiful Truth". I would really recommend that one as well (though it's not available to freely watch online). Something for you to consider. People you know with cancer might really benefit from it as well. God bless!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7357629140536485998&ei=nxnpSojICZTqqAP6k9X0Cg&q=dying+to+have+known&hl=en#

H
HeartSong

Dear Chris,

You are killing me brother. You have no idea how these things that you are saying just pierces my heart. Can I get you to focus on what I am about to say? As you read, will you set your analytical mind aside so that the words can sink in? Can you turn off your auto response mode for just a bit?

Our Lord, and Saviour, Jesus Christ died so that we might be set free. That is free from sin and free from death. He died that we might be set free from the worries of this earth. Yes, there is sickness on this earth but most of it is the result of sin (note that I did not say all). This sickness (which can take many forms) is often (note I did not say always) the judgment of the Lord. In mercy, He allows this sickness so that He can get our attention so that we can repent of our sin while we are still on this earth - so that we can repent before we are eternally condemned in hell.

Man has decided that he does not like judgment and has endeavored to come up with many methods of masking, and staving off, these sicknesses - which is in effect shaking his fist at God. When we get a headache we can now pop a pill rather than get on our faces before the Lord.

But God will not be mocked. No matter how good we get at avoiding death, it will still come upon us. God is perfectly capable of keeping every one of us from getting the swine flu, or any other disease, but we must choose to rely on Him. If we choose to rely on something else, that will be where our protection lies.

Those that have chosen to rely upon God for protection from the swine flu, will be protected by God. Some may die, but then they will be with Him so there is no loss. Those that decide to rely upon the shot to protect themselves will be protected by the shot and the wisdom of those that developed it. This decision will be made out of fear, for if they had no fear, they would not be getting the shot. Each person must make his own decision - whether he will trust in the wisdom of God or the wisdom of man. This is really a matter of faith.

Chris, when I read what you write, your focus is clearly on the wisdom of man and you are influencing others to do the same. This is pointing others away from Christ. If a person is feeling convicted to put his faith in the Lord, and you talk them out of it, this is "spiritual abortion."

There are many souls that hang in the balance in these troubled times. If we do not learn to put our faith fully in the Lord we will fall. I pray that anyone that has gotten this shot will go before the Lord and repent - that they will ask Him to forgive them for their unbelief. I pray that anyone that is undecided will make a decision for the Lord. I pray that God will get the glory in these things that are about to come upon us - God have mercy on our souls.

W
White_Stone

Dear HeartSong,

You said, "Our Lord, and Saviour, Jesus Christ died so that we might be set free. That is free from sin and free from death. He died that we might be set free from the worries of this earth. Yes, there is sickness on this earth but most of it is the result of sin (note that I did not say all). This sickness (which can take many forms) is often (note I did not say always) the judgment of the Lord. In mercy, He allows this sickness so that He can get our attention so that we can repent of our sin while we are still on this earth - so that we can repent before we are eternally condemned in hell."

That is exactly the way I see it, too.

Kind regards,
white stone

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi nearthecross...

And then come people like our brother ccchhhrrriiisss who demand proof that, for example, vaccines are bad for you. He does not accept the evidence you give him, however. The only thing he will accept is a peer-reviewed source from mainstream, conventional medicine. Just like the evolutionist demanding the creationist to cite sources from the evolutionary journals to disprove the evolutionary theory!

No, this isn't accurate. I simply do not accept an argument from individuals from the anti-vaccination groups that haven't really presented any evidence to validate THEIR claims. Yes, the burden of proof is upon them since they are calling into question the vast plethora of evidence that says otherwise.

I have to wonder, brother: What are you basing your opinion on? Where is the evidence?

You seem to reject "mainstream" medical research from doctors and scientists who are NOT paid by the pharmaceutical companies. They are simply looking at the facts and reporting their findings. Yet the proof from many of the anti-vaccination websites feel the liberty to reject evidence from "mainstream" medical researchers...and then present their own medical research that has largely gone without review or academic scrutiny.

It is inaccurate to claim that this is in any way similar to the Creation vs. Evolution debate. Evolutionary biologists readily admit that their claims are largely based upon widely held presumptions. On the contrary, in medical research, mainstream medical scientists base their conclusions by administering, observing and documenting the results of TESTS. These doctors and researchers precisely document their findings at the time of their research making and documenting all possible controls.


ccchhhrrriiisss, it seems this debate is going nowhere, and I don't think it profitable to continue in it. The only evidence you will accept and trust is the one that comes from conventional medicine and the pharmaceutical industry. People like me however, based on research and experience, generally do not trust those sources. And I don't see the need for potentially dangerous drugs and vaccines to prevent diseases; God has given us natural means to do that, namely vitamins, minerals, and nutrients that come mainly from a healthy diet.

Again, you error in this claim, brother. I don't care WHERE or WHOM the evidence comes from -- as long as it is peer reviewed evidence that undergoes proper scrutiny. This same statement could be turned on its head and make me, again, wonder just how much faith you are placing upon your own sources in this matter. You have made some claims about these vaccinations. Where did you gather your evidence? How does it compare with the evidence gathered by the rest of medical researchers and scientists?

Look, I would quickly dismiss vaccinations if there was a credible amount of proof from substantial sources. However, I haven't seen enough evidence yet that would validate many of the claims and rumors against vaccinations. To be perfectly clear: I haven't really seen ANY evidence that would validate the claims of the anti-vaccination groups. All of the evidence that I have seen would actually point in the other direction. That is why I am extremely curious as to view your "sources." Thus far, you haven't provided any. I am even interested in viewing the evidence that you say you have that disputes the claim that the 1918 flu pandemic was exaggerated.

However, I would remind you that a source is best when it is firsthand. Many of the links that I have seen and provided were firsthand clinical trials, firsthand accounts, contemporary state statistics or even military historians.

I am disappointed by the insinuations, accusations and rumors that are spread by individuals that I have seen online (even in Christian circles) that are either misinformed or simply spreading rumors. If these sites are going to say that vaccinations are bad...or unnecessary...then they need to post a disclaimer that the vast majority of medical researchers, medical scientists and medical doctors dispute their claims. In fact, I almost felt like reporting Dr. Joseph Mercola's claims to his state OD board which granted his license to practice. He is making plenty of money from "alternative medicine" products sold to people who make their decisions based upon claims that cannot or will not be substantiated by proper review.

But we definitely agree that it comes down to a matter of trust. I cannot in good conscience trust "research" that lacks properly scrutinized evidence to substantiate its claims. I would immediately dismiss vaccinations if I thought that there was any merit to these claims. However, I just don't see it.

Simply put: I have been told that there is a strain of flu that is the same of the strain that caused the 1918 flu pandemic. Many scientists worry that this strain might mutate in a similar manner. I have seen quite a few peer reviewed medical articles (complete with photos, no less) that substantiate these claims. I understand the science behind vaccinations. I acknowledge that vaccinations have largely eradicated diseases that used to be common in this nation.

I understand the concerns and accusations that have been levied against vaccinations or ingredients within vaccinations. I haven't seen ANY credible evidence to substantiate those claims. On the contrary, I have seen evidence that refutes those claims. I know someone who helped create the vaccination. I know many people who have taken the vaccination. Not one of those people have had a single side effect. I have not seen any documented cases of the rumored side effects. In fact, the recently published research findings on the swine flu vaccinations do not point to any adverse effects. I find no evidence for a "conspiracy" about the government or that the pharmaceutical companies are "getting rich" from this particular vaccination. I have weighed the evidence and have drawn a conclusion. Until I see any evidence to the contrary, why should I change my opinion?

Many of these "anti-vaccination" people keep shouting their claims and rumors from the metaphoric rooftops (particularly via the internet)...but they still haven't produced any evidence to validate their claims. They say that we won't accept the proof "even if we were to see it"...so they decide not to provide it. I would love to examine that proof and see how it stacks up to medical or scientific scrutiny.

To be clear: There is nothing personal from all of that. We can certainly agree to disagree. I just think that we need to provide proof if we make such specific medical claims like this. Otherwise, aren't we only repeating hearsay? Moreover, I certainly appreciate your desire to know the truth, brother.

*BTW, I will try to watch the video from the link that you provided tomorrow.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi HeartSong...

Sister, I think that you completely misunderstand what I am writing.

Someone asked about the possible dangers of the present swine flu vaccination. I provided information that I know from firsthand experience.

You may believe wholeheartedly that medicine, medical treatment and vaccinations are unspiritual, unbiblical or full of worldly wisdom. That is perfectly acceptable as your own opinion. I happen to believe that God does still heal. I believe that God does protect. Yet, I have to ask you about all of those believers who have NOT been divinely protected from an illness. What should THEY do?

Sister, you can tell people who have gotten the swine flu vaccination (or other forms of medicine) to "repent," but you are judging them very harshly. You are literally saying that they are IN SIN for having taken preventive medicine. This might sound like a very spiritual statement to make (and you may even believe it wholeheartedly), but you are effectively denying medicine and doctors as workers of unbelief. Jesus said that the sick need a doctor. Paul had an illness that God did not take away. Paul told Timothy to take wine (an altered form of grape juice) because of his stomach illnesses. Yet you seem to be indicating that believers can walk in "divine health" simply by faith? Sister, what if God provided doctors to help those who are sick? After all, God provides jobs for us to take care of our needs and the needs of our families.

To be honest, sister, I don't know what to think of what you wrote. I think that you are very sincere. I even agree with many of the underlying principles of what you write. However, I think that you are wrong in the application of this to all people living in this world. We can trust that God can take us to preach to people across town -- but we don't need to wait to be supernaturally "translated" when we can simply walk, drive a car or take the bus. Sure, it might not seem "spiritual" to walk when God can easily translate us there. However, if God doesn't translate us, does that mean we're not supposed to go?

I do think that you have taken this a step too far by virtually questioning the salvation of those who might choose to go to a doctor, take medicine or even take a vaccine.

M
MaryJane

Heartsong

You wrote:This decision will be made out of fear, for if they had no fear, they would not be getting the shot. Each person must make his own decision - whether he will trust in the wisdom of God or the wisdom of man. This is really a matter of faith.

There are many souls that hang in the balance in these troubled times. If we do not learn to put our faith fully in the Lord we will fall. I pray that anyone that has gotten this shot will go before the Lord and repent - that they will ask Him to forgive them for their unbelief.

____

Sister how can you even presume to know the heart of another believer. You speak as if you know the heart of every person who has chosen to get this shot. Only God knows a persons heart not you. Think about your own words and the effect that they have on others as well. Many have prayed and sought the Lord on what to do for their families in regards to this shot, just because they are not under the same conviction that you are does not mean that they are in sin. It does not mean that they lack faith, and it does not mean that they do not trust the Lord. What you are preaching here is not from the Bible. No where in the Bible does it tell us that we can not take medicine, or get a vaccine to avoid getting sick, or not to go to the doctor. No one has said to just run out and get this shot, I think the one thing all have agreed on is that each person must seek the Lord in prayer first and then submit to His leading. Can you allow that others who have earnestly prayed about this can and do hear from God as well? Sister I sincerely ask you to think over what you wrote again. Do you not see how you come across to others?

praying for you
mj

Edit: After praying about this more last night and this morning, I wanted to make sure that I conveyed to you, that I love you in Christ and that I do believe your heart is sincere in pointing others to Jesus. i only ask you to not get caught up in making this conviction you are seeing for yourself as a standard that all must follow? I agree with you that we should always seek the Lord in every situation first through prayer. Then we must seek to walk out what He has for each of us in this time and situation.

L
Lysa


DeepThinker wrote:
Chris you have lightened my load with your knowledge on the subject, especially the facts on why the vaccine is needed to help combat the possibility of a mutation.

I was reading one site that (anti swine flu vaccination) that there is high levels of Mercury.

What are your thoughts on that?

check out this Google book, "[url=http://books.google.com/books?id=w2PwVMgCK1UC&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=what+is+the+difference+between+ethyl+mercury+and+methyl+mercury%3F&source=bl&ots=-xnfOBzArs&sig=LnzxIxBmnhw12HK6a20FQ4S281Q&hl=en&ei=N8vkSqZyxdDxBsGGrIgH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCYQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=&f=false]Evidence of Harm:[/url] Mercury in Vaccines and the Autism Epidemic: A Medical ..."
By David Kirby (edit) The Mercury Rising chapter(/edit)

N
nearthecross

You seem to reject "mainstream" medical research from doctors and scientists who are NOT paid by the pharmaceutical companies. They are simply looking at the facts and reporting their findings.

This is an assumption. Unless you know every doctor and scientist who conduct this research, you cannot make this claim. The pharmaceutical industry, for example, is one of the largest contributors to universities and med schools.

On the contrary, in medical research, mainstream medical scientists base their conclusions by administering, observing and documenting the results of TESTS. These doctors and researchers precisely document their findings at the time of their research making and documenting all possible controls.

Tests can be biased and/or manipulated. I've seen it happen before. They can also be based on wrong assumptions.

You say:

I am disappointed by the insinuations, accusations and rumors that are spread by individuals that I have seen online (even in Christian circles) that are either misinformed or simply spreading rumors.

But then you go on to say:

In fact, I almost felt like reporting Dr. Joseph Mercola's claims to his state OD board which granted his license to practice. He is making plenty of money from "alternative medicine" products sold to people who make their decisions based upon claims that cannot or will not be substantiated by proper review.

So...you're guilty of the very thing you accuse me of! If someone accuses the multi-million dollar pharmaceutical industry of being in it for the money, you quickly dismiss the accusations as "spreading rumors" and "conspiracy theories". And yet you do the same with Dr. Mercola. You don't know the man, you don't know his motives, but nevertheless you condemn him. You claim he's making a big profit off of the expense of people. And yet...can you substantiate your claims with facts? Do you have evidence, his financial records, maybe? Do you know how he uses the money that comes in through his organization?

The fact is that practitioners of alternative medicine can't get support from the pharmaceutical industry. The pharmaceutical-friendly FDA ruthlessly opposes and suppresses practically all treatments that do not involve the use of drugs. Thus, alternative practitioners have to be creative if they want to remain in business. Many of them sell vitamins, books, and other products.
Dr. Mercola has chosen not to receive donations, or use paid advertising. Thus, he sells products to generate income. And then, he has to pay his staff of over 100 employees, including researchers, doctors, scientists, etc. Then there are building costs, website costs, and not to mention the legal fees he has to pay (lawsuits, etc.) because his findings do not conform to strict FDA regulations.

He answers all your accusations here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcXtFJDXEZ8

Please be careful of slander, brother.

God bless.

M
MaryJane

Greetings Chris

I wanted to ask you a question that has been on my mind. I read that anyone who gets this shot and has complications is not allowed to sue either the government or the pharmaceutical company that puts it out. In your research have you found this to be true? If so do you think it at all odd that these companies or the federal government are not willing to stand by this vaccine in such a way? Just wondering? Also is this policy always been in place with the flu vaccine every year?

God Bless
maryjane

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi nearthecross...

This is an assumption. Unless you know every doctor and scientist who conduct this research, you cannot make this claim. The pharmaceutical industry, for example, is one of the largest contributors to universities and med schools.
....
Tests can be biased and/or manipulated. I've seen it happen before. They can also be based on wrong assumptions.

I don't know what you are trying to say. Do [u]YOU[/u] know any of the researchers who make claims [i]against[/i] vaccinations? On the other hand, I have seen the first-hand clinical studies and research results from many studies. I am not trusting the researchers themselves. Rather, I think that the findings of the vast majority of medical research is worth strong consideration. While you seem to somehow (and I feel erroneously) believe that a "bias" exists in these studies and contribute it to "contributions" to Universities, most studies into these matters are done so by third parties. However, even the pharmaceutical companies themselves have a vested interest in learning the truth when creating medications for the sake of lawsuits. Yet their findings must be peer-reviewed, verified and replicated by third party medical researchers.

I can't help but wonder: Are you trying to say that all of these doctor, scientists and researchers are part of some conspiracy to make it appear like the influenza vaccination is safe?

Look, you seem far more willing to embrace the unproven claims by alternative "practitioners" than acknowledge the overwhelming, documented evidence that has been presented by the vast majority of mainstream medical experts. You can allege that these men are part of some sort of conspiracy to "fix" the test results all you want, but I personally feel that such a claim is downright unwarranted. In fact, I also have to ask whether or not you have even considered or reviewed the overwhelming evidence from medical researchers that shows that this vaccine is safe and effective. If not, doesn't this account to ignoring the evidence and results that are presented by the vast majority of research in favor of the opinions of a very few that has not been substantiated by peer-reviewed scrutiny?


But then you go on to say:
Quote:
In fact, I almost felt like reporting Dr. Joseph Mercola's claims to his state OD board which granted his license to practice. He is making plenty of money from "alternative medicine" products sold to people who make their decisions based upon claims that cannot or will not be substantiated by proper review.

So...you're guilty of the very thing you accuse me of! If someone accuses the multi-million dollar pharmaceutical industry of being in it for the money, you quickly dismiss the accusations as "spreading rumors" and "conspiracy theories". And yet you do the same with Dr. Mercola. You don't know the man, you don't know his motives, but nevertheless you condemn him. You claim he's making a big profit off of the expense of people. And yet...can you substantiate your claims with facts? Do you have evidence, his financial records, maybe? Do you know how he uses the money that comes in through his organization?

The difference, brother, is that Dr. Mercola makes substantial, specific claims that are NOT verified by research. According to law, this is medical malpractice. Worse -- the man is doing it for PROFIT. He has been sued many times because of false advertising. While there is nothing "dangerous" within the vitamins or nutrients that he might sell, he has been penalized by the FDA for claiming specific results for his products that the FDA concluded are misleading or completely false. What's more, Dr. Mercola not only endorses herbology and accupuncture, but even the practice of diagnosing illnesses by seeing "energy fields" around a person (which, in my estimation, borders on voodoo practice). He was not sued for obtaining "findings" that did not "conform to strict FDA regulations." He was sued multiple times for making claims that were not validated by ANY credible evidence (including his own). You just can't prescribe something (like Vitamin C) is a "cure" for a disease unless you have authentic medical studies that validate such a claim.

Now, I don't know where you have read Dr. Mercola's finances. He is not operating as a "non-profit organization." He is a legally registered alternative medicine business. While you claim that the man must pay his staff of 100 (including researchers, doctors and scientists), most credible published research is performed, reproduced or validated outside of a company itself...by unbiased third party medical researchers. And even with these "researchers" being paid by his company, they still have not managed to get a single piece of peer-reviewed research published in any major medical journal?

He answers all your accusations here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcXtFJDXEZ8

Please be careful of slander, brother.


Brother, who is making the initial accusations here? Dr. Mercola...you...and other individuals who are against the influenza vaccination have pointed the finger and claimed that it is unsafe. WHERE IS THE RESEARCH? Well, the vast majority of research says that it IS safe. Yet, we are supposed to embrace the claims of this man...simply because he claims that his own research rejects what the vast majority of research findings agree upon? You might ask yourself just WHERE the slander began.

Look, you can certainly place your faith in Dr. Mercola. I am not concerned about some of his claims. Rather, I am concerned about a man who is acting as a physician who makes specific claims that criticizes what appears to be widespread, indisputable medical evidence...and then turns around and markets an alternative product for personal profit. I don't have anything against alternative medicine. However, I do have a difficult time respecting a man who is denying overwhelming evidence...claiming that you can't trust it...and then presents his own limited "evidence" as a means to promote his own product.

As I said several times before, this comes down to a matter of trust. I suppose that some people can assume that all of the studies conducted by various medical researchers about the swine flu and the subsequent vaccinations is faulty. Yet, I find that many of these critics have never analyzed the actual data in the first place. So what are they basing their "trust" upon?

Ultimately, our trust should belong to the Lord. When it comes to the swine flu, our trust should first and foremost be directed to Him. He is able to keep us, protect us and/or heal us. At the same time, we should use wisdom when dealing with this earthly Temple of the Holy Spirit. Yes, we should practice good hygiene and watch what we eat, drink or ingest into our bodies. Likewise, we should do the best that we can to look into such things...and test such things by considering all available facts and findings.

Brother, I don't look to be contemptuous in this thing. I just think that we should use careful words any time that we are to make a claim. I feel that I have done this. I entered the conversation about vaccinations simply because I have looked into this matter and studied it intently. Because of my ability to access a multitude of medical journal articles from PubMed, I've been able to see the documented results from many different research studies. I know plenty of people who have already taken the vaccine (including my own nieces and nephews). I even have a good friend (who is a strong Christian) who helped design one of the current vaccinations. So, I feel comfortable sharing what I know. I feel that I have looked into this intently and with great sincerity.

Like I said, I would immediate resist the vaccine if I saw any credible reason to do so. Yet, I also feel like I have been hit with "stones" from two directions -- from those who don't believe in this particular vaccination and from those who don't believe Christians should use medicine or vaccinations at all. I don't mean to offend either of these types of believers. However, I just felt like I could offer my input to the original question. There is no ill will here whatsoever. We can certainly agree to disagree, but I would still caution any individuals from making such specific claims if we haven't truly verified those claims for ourselves. I think that many of us can agree with this notion.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi MaryJane,

I will look into this. While I realize that the government might make it more difficult to sue because of a sanctioned vaccination, I don't see how a wrongful death or personal injury lawsuit could be averted.

I have looked up the claim and have seen the same exact claims repeated in several anti-swine flu vaccination websites; however, I can't find a link to the original article. The words in the unverified "article" (sometimes attributed to ABC and sometimes to the AP) claims that this has been the norm for vaccinations since the 1980s and that a Federal Court (rather than a local personal injury court) will decide who is compensated due to adverse reactions.

If possible, could you please provide me a link to the source of the article that you read? This might help me begin my attempt to look into it.

Thank you, sister!

M
MaryJane

Greetings Chris
I actually first read about the government granting immunity to the makers of this shot back in Jul on msnbc . I just wondered if you during all of your research had read anything about this. In the article it states why they are giving them immunity, because of the complications that happened with the 1976 batch of vaccines. It was basically done to get the vaccine makers to go along with making the vaccine.

Anyway I was just wondering if you knew about this and what past policy was. No need for you to have to spend time search it it out:-)

God Bless
maryjane

G
ginnyrose

QUOTE:
Joseph Mercola's claims to his state OD board which granted his license to practice. He is making plenty of money from "alternative medicine" products sold to people

Well, this is interesting - had no idea the fellow not reliable.

The fact that those in alternative medicine are in it to make money like the medical establishment is so very true. It s also true of those who promote sustainable/organic farming. The question that challenges us is who is right? and what is true? Can both be true? Maybe, and why so?

Back in the mid 1990s our daughter was diagnosed with glioblastoma - brain cancer. She was anointed with oil three times, utilized alternative methods to treat as well as medical which was limited to radiation and surgery. No chemo. Our SIL said he felt he had the largest library of books detailing how to cure cancer in the county! But she died because it was her time to go. Her mission here was completed. God allowed her to have this cancer to prepare her for eternity. Her husband said he would never want to exchange this experience of seeing a person ready herself to die for anything else. Occasionally she would ask for the phone, calling someone to correct wrongs made by her in the past.

During this time there was a doctor in Texas who was selling a cure for glioblastoma promising positive results. I was a bit ticked off at him - one treatment cost $10,000! Since it was not an approved method of treatment, no insurance would help pay for it. I have not kept track of him in recent years but I suspect he and his treatment is history. Actually, I had my brother in law, who is a professor in the biological sciences, to check out the compound this fellow was using and he said it is a very common and inexpensive substance. SIGH.

Who do you trust? and why? That is why one needs the Lord to give you direction in making these decisions.

My thoughts,
ginnyrose

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Sister Ginny...

Back in the mid 1990s our daughter was diagnosed with glioblastoma - brain cancer. She was anointed with oil three times, utilized alternative methods to treat as well as medical which was limited to radiation and surgery. No chemo. Our SIL said he felt he had the largest library of books detailing how to cure cancer in the county! But she died because it was her time to go. Her mission here was completed. God allowed her to have this cancer to prepare her for eternity. Her husband said he would never want to exchange this experience of seeing a person ready herself to die for anything else. Occasionally she would ask for the phone, calling someone to correct wrongs made by her in the past.

I never knew this, sister. Although I feel for your loss, I find this testimony to be extremely encouraging.

I know a man who died from cancer. He was the part-time janitor for the Church that I grew up in. He was diagnosed in December and died less than nine weeks later. I remember sitting at his funeral listening to people from the congregation share about this man's character and faith. Shortly after the congregation finished sharing, some visitors began sharing. I was surprised to hear that some of his coworkers and friends claimed that they had been wronged by this man. However, they said that in the weeks between his diagnosis and his death, this man had called up these people and apologized for the wrongs that he had committed. What an awesome opportunity! In the face of death, this man showed forth "fruit unto repentance."

I agree that we should definitely rely upon the Lord for the direction that we need to make these sort of decisions. Thank you for sharing this testimony.

G
ginnyrose

Chris and for everyone else here:

I will share what my [professor] brother-in-law told me before Regina died.

He said, "Sandra, do you understand that dying is not the worse thing that can happen to a person?"

I said, "Yes, I know that."

And I still believe this.

ginnyrose

EDIT: FYI: what I think is worse then dying is apostasizing and dying in that state.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Sister Ginnyrose...

I will share what my [professor] brother-in-law told me before Regina died.

He said, "Sandra, do you understand that dying is not the worse thing that can happen to a person?"

I said, "Yes, I know that."

And I still believe this.
....
EDIT: FYI: what I think is worse then dying is apostasizing and dying in that state.


Amen! Death has truly lost its sting for those us who know the Lord! To live is Christ...and to die is gain!

Thank you for sharing, sister.

L
Lysa

wrote:
The difference, brother, is that Dr. Mercola makes substantial, specific claims that are NOT verified by research. According to law, this is medical malpractice. Worse -- the man is doing it for PROFIT. He has been sued many times because of false advertising.

Now, where are you sources for these claims.

What are his "[i]substantial AND specific claims that are NOT verified by research[/i]"?

"[i]According to law, this is medical malpractice.[/i]"

Where is this law? What does it state exactly?
I ask this because my next post is some things that Dr. Oz has stated and no one is suing him.

"[i]He has been sued many times because of false advertising.[/i]"

Where are the sources for the suits AND where these people won their cases? That quack doctor sued him but he dropped his case. Where are [b]ALL THESE MANY TIMES[/b] that he has been sued and lost?

God bless you Chris!


L
Lysa

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Rather, I am concerned about a man who is acting as a physician who makes specific claims that criticizes what appears to be widespread, indisputable medical evidence...and then turns around and markets an alternative product for personal profit.

Talking about personal profit... what about Dr. Memhet Oz? The man wrote a book, now has his own tv show and has stated that his wife and children will NOT be taking the vaccination but he will. (???) (google dr oz wife h1n1 vaccine)

True, he doesn't sell "products," per se (or does he?) but read on...

"[i]I work at a very small health food store. ...Anyway, there's been a run on brewer's yeast. ...We get these weird runs sometimes, when people read an article somewhere or see an ad or hear something on TV or the radio, so I figured this was the case. ...

[b]Dr. Oz gave people the idea.[/b] Apparently people got the idea that if they sprinkle brewer's yeast on their popcorn, it'll make them lose weight or it'll "blast" belly fat or something.[/i]
(If you want the link, chris, I will pm you with it as it is NOT a christian blog/site)

"[i]Dr Oz the resident celebrity “quack” – recently discussed two skin care products which offer powerful anti-aging qualities in the form of two various anti-oxidant qualities.[/i]
It's a skin care link, if you want this one too... same thing

I bet the skin care products sold out that weekend as well as the brewer's yeast! In the blog comment and the article, they both debunk his recommendations but look at the majority of people who flock to [b]what he says[/b] and he didn't even say "you can buy here."

I've only bought a couple of things from Dr. Mercola, why? only b/c that's the only place I could get them. Normally, I buy my supplements from vitacost.com, they are much less expensive!

I like what ginnyrose wrote: [i]The fact that those in alternative medicine are in it to make money like the medical establishment is so very true. [/i]

People are in business to make a living. I don't' admonish them for that because I can go elsewhere if I don't like their prices!

(edit: my point was that you cannot fault one medical practitioner for making money when there are so many others out there who do the same thing. /edit)

S
sermonindex

What I don't agree with is people who would refuse because they think having a vaccination means lack of faith in God.

Though some might feel this, I think the majority don't feel it is safe because it has been rushed into the markets and the propaganda that riddles throughout media causes me to tread softly.
There is to much fear mongering going on from the media and government. They say "do this", "take this", and many say "Okay."

S
sermonindex

"the man is doing it for PROFIT. He has been sued many times because of false advertising."

This statement could also be written about the drug companies and the medical comunnity at large. If lawsuits were the measure or standard by which we judged, then none of us would step into Doctors offices or drug stores......Frank

S
sermonindex


appolus wrote:
"the man is doing it for PROFIT. He has been sued many times because of false advertising."

This statement could also be written about the drug companies and the medical comunnity at large. If lawsuits were the measure or standard by which we judged, then none of us would step into Doctors offices or drug stores......Frank

Don't know about you but if someone is sued multiple times for malpractice and false advertising...I won't go! And yes I think it is a good measure to judge a place or practice. Have you ever went to a place that has a bad reputation or poor reviews? I try to avoid places that have poor ratings.

Many people are sue happy these days and I believe you will be able to determine whether it is greed or unprofessional conduct.

S
sermonindex

(edit: my point was that you cannot fault one medical practitioner for making money when there are so many others out there who do the same thing. /edit)

i agree...I know I don't get my money worth sometimes going to see the family doctor...30 minutes in the waiting room, 10 minutes waiting in the patient room....10 minutes with the doc...$125 dollars later...and take two of these and we will see if this works.

L
Lysa

I know you what you mean, you must have a fast doctor! I just took my son to the doctor tuesday 3:00 appointment. was there at 2:45, got back to the patient's room at 3:30, doctor came in at 4:00.

L
Lysa

reformer wrote:
Don't know about you but if someone is sued multiple times for malpractice and false advertising...I won't go!.... (removed some)

Many people are sue happy these days and I believe you will be able to determine whether it is greed or unprofessional conduct.


That's why I was trying to get references out of Chris about these suits against Mercola.

My reasoning especially with alternative medicine... how many of these so-called suits have been won? If none, then I don't want to hear any more about how many times he's been allegedly sued.
8-)

L
Lysa

appolus wrote:
.... If lawsuits were the measure or standard by which we judged, then none of us would step into Doctors offices or drug stores......Frank

Amen Frank!!

S
sermonindex

"And yes I think it is a good measure to judge a place or practice. Have you ever went to a place that has a bad reputation or poor reviews? I try to avoid places that have poor ratings."

I agree with that particular point. I guess the larger point was that most drug companies have been sued multiple times, been involved in cover-ups and have been shown to slant research to their favor. And also Chinese companies have not always , to say the least, been ethical when it comes to their manufacturing procedures, and I belive that it is a Chineses company that is one of the five manufacturers. I guess the easiest solution, at least in regard to vaccinations and so on, is to seek the Lord and go as your led........Frank

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Lysa...

Now, where are you sources for these claims.

What are his "substantial AND specific claims that are NOT verified by research"?

"According to law, this is medical malpractice."

Where is this law? What does it state exactly?
I ask this because my next post is some things that Dr. Oz has stated and no one is suing him.

"He has been sued many times because of false advertising."

Where are the sources for the suits AND where these people won their cases? That quack doctor sued him but he dropped his case. Where are ALL THESE MANY TIMES that he has been sued and lost?


I actually looked at the dockets from several of those cases. I will try to remember from which legal website I viewed those (but they are public record). I also saw some articles from several medical journals ABOUT the man's claims (as well as in national media sources that reported on those lawsuits). The lawsuits weren't merely typical personal injury lawsuits...but lawsuits from the FDA against Mercola for making fraudulent claims. In each of those cases that I viewed, Mercola ultimately complied with the FDA's rulings. I will dig these up and provide them to you (if you still want), but you could also look them up too. I will probably just add those citations to the bottom of this post and let you know via PM.

*EDIT - Just for clarity, these cases from the FDA were about specific claims that he was making in regard to some of the "cure" products that he was selling in his website and catalogs. They did not prevent him from continuing to sell some of those products (which are not necessarily dangerous unless they are taken under false pretenses). Dr. Mercola continues to sell some of those products, but his claims have changed. He also continues to recommend acupuncture and diagnoses via invisible "energy fields."

However, I am less concerned about the previous verdicts against this man and his alternative medicine company than I am for some of his CURRENT statements. He is making specific claims (especially in regard to the swine flu vaccination) that just aren't verified by any peer reviewed research. I've looked through his claims and there just is no evidence to substantiate what he says. Since he is the one making the claims (claims that, by the way, criticize and contradict the research of just about every other major medical study in regard to the swine flu), then the burden of proof should rest within his own claims.

The thing that I find ironic is that many of the individuals and websites that are against the swine flu vaccination continue to point to Dr. Mercola's website as a "source." Oddly, the "source" himself has no proof to validate his own statements. He is highly critical about the vast amount of medical research presented, but then sometimes cites ("pick-and-chooses") the bits and pieces that he thinks will give credibility to his statements. There doesn't seem to be a disclaimer or admission that the vast majority of medical research does not support his claims. Instead, he implies in some of the comment sections in his website that medical researcher themselves are largely influenced by money from the pharmaceutical companies.

Now, I don't have a problem that Dr. Mercola has a for-profit business that makes money off of his own recommendations for his own alternative medicine products (in answer appolus's reply). This is, after all, still a "free market" economy. However, he is highly critical of pharmaceutical companies for making profits...when he himself is doing the same thing. The difference, however, is that Dr. Mercola's advice sometimes goes against the vast majority of credible, peer-reviewed medical research. In this case, Mercola is critical of the swine flu vaccine and questions its validity or possible danger...but cannot provide a single piece of peer-reviewed medical research to validate his claim. He then turns around and markets and sells his own alternative.

I have no problem with using alternative medicines or treatments -- especially if they are simply a different method to treat an illness that have been validated by research. With every medical procedure or treatment, people should conduct their own review of all research available. However, the alternative medicine companies should at least acknowledge "alternatives" to the alternative medicine -- especially in regard to the conclusions of the vast majority of medical research.

Now, I know that this thread is not about Joseph Mercola or his alternative medicine business. However, several people have quoted this guy (even in this and the other swine flu vaccine thread). When I looked through many of the anti-swine flu vaccination websites, it was interesting that many of them actually pointed to this same person. There were even "citations" provided in either this or the other swine flu thread that linked to Dr. Mercola's claims. The only reason that I have continued to bring up Mercola is to question the validity of his claims when he has no peer-reviewed evidence to validate his "concerns" (as he sells an alternative product), and to also point out that a vast amount of medical research addresses those "concerns" and find them without medical merit.

I hope that this makes sense. A small group of mostly-alternative medicine individuals (like Dr. Joseph Mercola) have made claims about influenza vaccinations (and, currently, the various swine influenza vaccinations), but the vast majority of in-depth medical research says that those claims hold no merit.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Lysa...

That's why I was trying to get references out of Chris about these suits against Mercola.

My reasoning especially with alternative medicine... how many of these so-called suits have been won? If none, then I don't want to hear any more about how many times he's been allegedly sued.

That is fine...but don't you have a problem when a man makes specific medical claims that are not validated by medical research...and then markets and sells his own product for the same illness?

All of the personal injury lawsuits that have been won against pharmaceutical companies have come as a result of the findings of peer-reviewed research. In most of the cases involving of Dr. Mercola, he has none. He carefully words the products that he sells in order to avoid making specific claims (but getting as close as he possibly can without crossing that line). The cases that I read from the FDA all involved him crossing that line.

A person can sell Vitamin C -- but it is medical malpractice to sell it as a cure for diabetes or cancer. This would be akin to the "snake oil cure-all" salesmen from a hundred years ago. Most of Dr. Mercola's products are just natural herbs or procedures (although I am not talking about his promotion of acupuncture or his "Emotional Freedom Techniques" that include diagnoses by viewing invisible "energy fields"). His herbal remedies are just that -- herbal remedies. They are meant as an alternative "treatment" and are often based upon personal opinion rather than medical research. However, the FDA steps in when a specific medical claim is made that is completely unsubstantiated by any research whatsoever. This is what has occurred several times the claims for some of Mercola's business products.

H
HeartSong

I agree with you that we should always seek the Lord in every situation first through prayer. Then we must seek to walk out what He has for each of us in this time and situation.

Dear MaryJane,

We are not to "walk out," we are to "walk in."

God bless you sister.

H
HeartSong

He also continues to recommend acupuncture and diagnoses via invisible "energy fields."

Dear Chris,

Surely you are not trying to say that something does not exist just because it is invisible?

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi HeartSong...

Surely you are not trying to say that something does not exist just because it is invisible?
This is not in regard to [i]spiritual[/i] things, sister.

:-)

H
HeartSong


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi HeartSong...
Surely you are not trying to say that something does not exist just because it is invisible?
This is not in regard to [i]spiritual[/i] things, sister.

:-)


It most certainly is.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi HeartSong...

So, you think that alternative medical practitioners can diagnose [u]physical[/u] illnesses by looking at the colors of invisible energy fields? And you think that this is a [u]spiritual[/u] work?

L
Leo_Grace


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi HeartSong...

So, you think that alternative medical practitioners can diagnose [u]physical[/u] illnesses by looking at the colors of invisible energy fields? And you think that this is a [u]spiritual[/u] work?

It is spiritual work, but not of God. Be careful of such things.

div⋅i⋅na⋅tion  [div-uh-ney-shuhn]
–noun
1.\tthe practice of attempting to foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge by occult or supernatural means.
2.\taugury; prophecy: The divination of the high priest was fulfilled.
3.\tperception by intuition; instinctive foresight.

[i]Dt 18:10-12 [b]Let no one be found among you[/b] who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, [b]who practices [u]divination[/u] or sorcery, interprets omens[/b], engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.[/i]

G
ginnyrose

HeartSong,

Are you implying that the use of auras is a legitimate method to diagnose whatever ails you?

ginnyrose

H
HeartSong

What I am saying is that all of the things that we have been speaking of are spiritual.

What I am also saying is that if you do not believe that the Lord is both willing and able to both provide and protect, then it will be as if He does not exist.

If one does not believe in the invisible, then he can not believe in God.


So, you think that alternative medical practitioners can diagnose [u]physical[/u] illnesses by looking at the colors of invisible energy fields? And you think that this is a [u]spiritual[/u] work?
I know nothing of these things that you are speaking of.

You seem to think that physical and spiritual are two different things. They are not. They are two different realms, but they are not two different things. It is possible for something to be spiritual but not physical. But it is not possible for something to be physical without it also being spiritual - for God, who is a spirit, created all things, and is in all things, and all things exist in Him.

L
Leo_Grace

Dear HeartSong,

I hope you don't mind if I jump into this discussion.

You said:

You seem to think that physical and spiritual are two different things. They are not. They are two different realms, but they are not two different things. It is possible for something to be spiritual but not physical. But it is not possible for something to be physical without it also being spiritual - for God, who is a spirit, created all things, and is in all things, and all things exist in Him.

The physical and spiritual ARE different things. The Bible says so. They are as different as ETERNAL is from FINITE; as different as HEAVEN is from the WORLD; as different as DIVINE is from CARNAL. Your belief sounds more like Buddhism and other eastern philosophies rather than the teachings of God.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Heartsong...

What I am saying is that all of the things that we have been speaking of are spiritual.

What I am also saying is that if you do not believe that the Lord is both willing and able to both provide and protect, then it will be as if He does not exist.

If one does not believe in the invisible, then he can not believe in God.


No one is saying that they do not believe in the invisible. We don't see the Lord...but we know He is there. How? Most of all, because of our faith in Christ as taught by the Word of God! Yet, within the context of this conversation, we are speaking about [i]physical[/i] matters about a [i]physical[/i] body and [i]physical[/i] illnesses. You can see the body and even the H1N1 virus (with a good microscope).

God could have easily built His own Temple during the time of Solomon. Similarly, God could have continued its upkeep. However, he simply inspired Solomon with the specific physical makeup of that Temple. Solomon built it. The priests then continued to perform its physical upkeep. Jesus said that the sick need a doctor (Matthew 9:12). There were even sick people in the early Church. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that your argument might be based upon a view that we should leave the maintenance of our body's physical well being [u]entirely[/u] up to the Lord?

Sister, I once read about a believing woman who gave birth to a child, but did not want anyone around to assist her since she claimed that her "faith was entirely in the Lord." She had no doctors, no mid-wifes, and not even a nurse. She and her husband reasoned that they were no longer under the "curse" of Genesis and that God was her "Great Physician." They felt that no other trained individuals were needed. Sadly, there were complications and her child died. In fact, the mother was also close to death.

While this woman might have thought that she was "trusting in God and not in man," I can't help but wonder if she was at least partially responsible for the death of that child. She and her husband didn't take the measures needed to prevent a possibly needless death. After all, God sometimes uses physical means to carry out spiritual goals. After all, the same God who sometimes "raises up nations" can also raise up doctors.


I know nothing of these things that you are speaking of.

You seem to think that physical and spiritual are two different things. They are not. They are two different realms, but they are not two different things. It is possible for something to be spiritual but not physical. But it is not possible for something to be physical without it also being spiritual - for God, who is a spirit, created all things, and is in all things and all things exist in Him.


Then why did you comment about the "energy fields?" I was referring to a practice of diagnosing illnesses by looking at invisible "energy fields," not about believing in spiritual things that cannot (or usually cannot) be seen.

As far as the difference between the physical and the spiritual: Have you ever broken a bone? While it might have broken a physical bone, it didn't break the person's spiritual body. Have you considered I Corinthians 15:38-40? "[i]There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another[/i]" (I Corinthians 15:40). I hope this makes a little more sense as to what I was referring to.

M
MaryJane

Greetings Heartsong

You wrote:Quote:

I agree with you that we should always seek the Lord in every situation first through prayer. Then we must seek to walk out what He has for each of us in this time and situation.


Dear MaryJane,

We are not to "walk out," we are to "walk in."

God bless you sister.
___

Ok sister then we submit ourselves to His will and walk daily in His will for each of us. That still does not change the fact that you are judging others. There is no Biblical support that a believer can not take medicine, or go to a doctor or that they are lacking faith in doing so. This is your conviction and you should walk in it, but for you to hold others to the same conviction that you are seeing as if it is Biblical is wrong. I will be praying for you.

God bless you to
maryjane

S
sermonindex

And also Chinese companies have not always , to say the least, been ethical when it comes to their manufacturing procedures, and I belive that it is a Chineses company that is one of the five manufacturers.

I suppose our government feels obligated or better to say, a 'deal was made' to purchase as much as possible from China, since they carry so much of our debt. I am not sure if that is accurate, but if it is, how alarming is it that we are getting some of our vaccinations from a communist country! :-(

going to check that out!

H
HeartSong

No one is saying that they do not believe in the invisible. We don't see the Lord...but we know He is there. How? Most of all, because of our faith in Christ as taught by the Word of God!

And maybe this is where we differ, for I believe because the Lord has revealed Himself to me - He has shown me His saving power. He has cleansed me of my sin and keeps me on the path of righteousness. It is He, and He alone, that keeps me safe.

I must now bow out of this conversation. Thank you all for your consideration. God bless you.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi HeartSong...

And maybe this is where we differ, for I believe because the Lord has revealed Himself to me - He has shown me His saving power. He has cleansed me of my sin and keeps me on the path of righteousness. It is He, and He alone, that keeps me safe.

I think that all believers can say the same thing...whether they decide to use medicine, vaccines or visit doctors or not.

M
MaryJane

Greetings Heartsong

I know your no longer posting to this conversation but I just wanted you to know sister that I agree it is God who keeps us and covers us in all situations and provides for our needs. All the credit and glory goes to Him alone. All the praise and thanks goes to Him alone. In every moment of every day I give thanks for the many people in my life that God has used to help me. When my plumbing burst this last summer(my husband was unable to repair it), we prayed and asked God for help. He sent two wonderful plumbers to fix the pipes, and He provided the money as well to cover the charges. When layoff where happening at work this year, we prayed and asked God for His protection for both my son and husband. God provided and they both kept their jobs. When I have had need of prayer for family who were sick and even dying, God sent brothers and sister in Christ to join me in prayer. Such a great comfort to me that was. There are so many times over just the last few weeks that He has been there covering me and protecting me, when I was driving home, I notice the gas light was on and I was on empty. I began praying and the car made it all the way another eight miles to the station where I could get gas. God provided for me then. Just like you sister I to put all my trust and faith in the Lord and I am so thankful for all the many people He uses every day in my life to care for and protect me. Even when my son was sick a few weeks ago. We spent four days in prayer for what the Lord would have us do, and I know He was there with us as we went to the doctor at His urging and then again when we bought the antibiotics that helped him get better. God was there caring for, protecting, and guiding us in all these things! He does keep us safe and He does protect us and there is great comfort in knowing that we have such an awesome loving God. I look forward to sharing with you in other threads soon:-)

God Bless you
maryjane

H
HeartSong

I love you too MaryJane.

I forgot to mention that it was Jesus who cleansed the temple. He baptized through His disciples, but it was He, Himself, who cleansed the temple.

L
Lysa

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Heartsong...
What I am saying is that all of the things that we have been speaking of are spiritual.

What I am also saying is that if you do not believe that the Lord is both willing and able to both provide and protect, then it will be as if He does not exist.

If one does not believe in the invisible, then he can not believe in God.


No one is saying that they do not believe in the invisible. We don't see the Lord...but we know He is there. How? Most of all, because of our faith in Christ as taught by the Word of God! Yet, within the context of this conversation, we are speaking about [i]physical[/i] matters about a [i]physical[/i] body and [i]physical[/i] illnesses. You can see the body and even the H1N1 virus (with a good microscope).

heartsong thinks outside the box which is why there is usually a cross in the wires. I bet if you go back .... and .... read.... very .... carefully.... you will find that she never said [b]one time[/b] that that EMT or whatever it is, is spiritual.

No worries, I have no doubt she is still saved, born-again, washed in blood because she's the one who stopped arguing first!! Let's move on to something else heretical!!
8-)

L
Lysa

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Lysa...
...
The lawsuits weren't merely typical personal injury lawsuits...but lawsuits from the FDA against Mercola for making fraudulent claims. In each of those cases that I viewed, Mercola ultimately complied with the FDA's rulings. I will dig these up and provide them to you (if you still want), but you could also look them up too. I will probably just add those citations to the bottom of this post and let you know via PM.

*EDIT - Just for clarity, these cases from the FDA were about specific claims that he was making in regard to some of the "cure" products that he was selling in his website and catalogs. They did not prevent him from continuing to sell some of those products (which are not necessarily dangerous unless they are taken under false pretenses). Dr. Mercola continues to sell some of those products, but his claims have changed. He also continues to recommend acupuncture and diagnoses via invisible "energy fields."

However, I am less concerned about the previous verdicts against this man and his alternative medicine company than I am for some of his CURRENT statements. He is making specific claims (especially in regard to the swine flu vaccination) that just aren't verified by any peer reviewed research. I've looked through his claims and there just is no evidence to substantiate what he says. Since he is the one making the claims (claims that, by the way, criticize and contradict the research of just about every other major medical study in regard to the swine flu), then the burden of proof should rest within his own claims.


Everything you have just presented in hearsay in court! You have no evidence... so far, just something you've read something sometime ago.

I could look them up probably but I'm not the one saying these things about him, I like him and all his "information!"

I haven't heard him saying anything different about H1N1 that anyone else has said. Most of the views on his site the last six months have been of other peoples opinions. He is just a hub for a lot of the information.

Example, he has an article (hearsay right now!! wink) that Canada is doing a study on the benefits of Vitamin D fighting influenza. He didn't write that but he did post it.

So if you have any beneficial FDA suits against him, I'd like to view them!

God bless you Chris, I don't mean to be abrupt but i've been awake since 3:30 am and am tired... I really do mean, God bless you ccchhhrrriiisss!!

M
MaryJane

I love you too MaryJane.

I forgot to mention that it was Jesus who cleansed the temple. He baptized through His disciples, but it was He, Himself, who cleansed the temple.
_______
Dear Heartsong

I agree Jesus is the only one who can and does save us. He alone is the truth, the way, and the light and through Him we are saved. I may disagree with you about going to doctors/taking medicine, but we will always agree that Jesus is our all and all. I love you to sister.

God bless you and keep you
maryjane

S
sermonindex

You may believe wholeheartedly that medicine, medical treatment and vaccinations are unspiritual, unbiblical or full of worldly wisdom. That is perfectly acceptable as your own opinion
I plan to take the vaccine. Not out of fear as this was the main reason why I didn't want to take it. But with all this "good" information that Chris has provided, I am encouraged.

As I was reflecting on this decision, the thought entered my my mind that if Missionaries wanted to go to another country they would have to be inoculated. They wouldn't be able to leave their home country or enter the one they are going to unless they had the proper precautions.

It was that reasoning and the fact that I work in a Special Care facility to where that if I contracted this disease I would have to leave that house lest I'd infect the residents is why I should take this. And I can't do that to my co workers, their workload would have to increase.

I do not buy into the lie that if you get a disease and die from it, that it's your time to die. In some special instances maybe, but the majority no.

Hezekiah had a disease and was dying. He was told by the Prophet Isaiah that he was going to die, "set thine house in order". He prayed to the LORD to spare his life and God healed him and he lived on for another 15 years I believe it was. So just because we get some disease doesn't mean it's our time to die. For Hezekiah his time was extended.

We are in short supply of miracle workers, healers, and the gift of Faith. I am talking about the gifts of the Spirit operating through believers.

S
sermonindex

Unless we "hear" God speak personally to us that we should not take this vaccine or anything for that matter, then we should do everything we can to prevent it. Just as Mary Jane said about her son, that she felt that urge to take him to the Doctor, and to give him the medication that he needed. We do our part and God does what we can't do.

Mother has taken the vaccine and she didn't want to take it because the last time she had taken it it was by the urging of her husband. She got sick afterwards for taking the flu shot several years ago now. And she vowed that she wouldn't take it again. She prayed and put it before the LORD. An experience came back to her mind while she was thinking about this. She was coming in for her shift and she was travelling in the winter and as she started to go down the mountain road she had to stop. All the way down the hill was a sheet of glass (ice). She said that she could have trusted God, but seeing the danger, why tempt God? She felt by not taking the vaccine that she was being selfish. People depend on her and if she lost that dependency other people would be left hanging. So take the necessary precaution and turn around and go home and stay off the ice.

Everyone must do what they think is right in their own eyes.

Let me tell you a story. A true story. A man in a certain congregation stood up and gave his testimony about how God healed him of Diabetes and he didn't need his meds any longer. There was a young woman in the congregation who had the same condition heard him speak and that encouraged her to stop taking her medication. In a short period of time the woman died. The tragedy was that the man didn't tell the whole story. The man continued to take his medication in conjunction with herbs and eating right until the diabetes cleared up, this information was left out and the woman just stopped taking what was keeping her body manageable.

Some medications can be bad for some people, but most are good and God put that type of information in this world for men and women to discover and to help extend lives. We shouldn't shun something that extends lives, the devil comes to rob, kill and destroy. If Penicillin came from the devil, maybe we are serving the wrong God. Because Penicillin has done a world of good for those that are sick. Our God is a God of science and He rains on the just and the unjust. I try to use natural sources to manage my body, but when I had that kidney stone, I was grateful for the pain killers.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi DeepThinker...

I think that there is much godly wisdom in what you are saying. I think, that within this discussion, it is important to consider the value of peer reviewed research that has been properly and freely scrutinized with as much rigorous testing as possible. After all, the Word of God advises believers to "test everything" and to "hold onto that which is good" (I Thessalonians 5:21). While this is certainly speaking of spiritual matters, this concept can be carried to practical matters of life too.

But, does peer-reviewed medical research matter?

The medical technology company that I work for has designed a device that is quite "alternative" compared with traditional chemotherapy, radiation therapy or typical stereotactic radiosurgery treatments. It is a non-invasive method that uses a linear accelerator to apply the stereotactic radiotherapy at a precise point. It is less dangerous because it applies a non-lethal linear dosage through the body (thereby protecting everything along the target "line" from the entrance, through the cancer and out the exit point of the human body). However, the robotic devices then apply the same non-lethal linear dosage through six different angles -- and each angle crosses the cancer. While it isn't harmful to surrounding tissue and organs along the entry and exit paths of each linear application, it provides a lethal dose to the precise location of the cancer where the beams from the linear accelerator cross. It even has a feature in which the robotic equipment accounts for body movement. It immediately shuts off the dose for a sudden twitch, and starts again as it target the cancer in real time. It even has a method of targeting the precise location of the tumor while following the respiration of the patient! It is completely non-invasive, and most patients actually sleep through it.

As great as this device may sound, it took many years of research and documentation by scientists, engineers and medical doctors (and more years of clinical trials) before the device was finally approved by the FDA. As a result of all of this rigorous testing and peer-reviewed scrutiny, the device is now approved for the treatment of all types of tumors. Yet we don’t stop researching the device once it is approved by the FDA. We continually research it and monitor the peer-reviewed research by doctors, medical scientists, engineers and others. This is actually part of my job description. I constantly monitor and analyze this research and document all results (the good, the bad and the ugly) in the hope of perfecting the device and/or its applications. We are always on the lookout for any “red flags” within the application of these devices for the treatments of various cancers. We not only document the results, but the quality of life for those who undergo this treatment compared to alternatives. Since this treatment device has become available, there have been literally hundreds of peer reviewed research studies that have examined and verified the effectiveness of this device.

The FDA requires that any treatment should be similarly documented. The approval of a vaccination only comes after similarly intense research, tests, documentation, peer-reviewed scrutiny, and finally, medical consensus. The current swine flu vaccination is often accused of having been “rushed” into production. However, the process and makeup of the vaccination is identical to proven influenza vaccinations that have been released since 1990. The only difference is the “strain” of flu that is targeted (H1N1) that determines the active agents within the vaccination itself. Many other countries have a similar means for their own medical treatments (although it is common for other countries to rely upon US or Western medical research in the development of their own treatments).

Many of the lawsuits against pharmaceutical companies are not due to an ineffective product, but because of an inadvertent side effect that the treatment may have had on the body. By law, traditional medicines (and treatments) must include a label that mentions the possible side effects. In my job, I must constantly list and cross reference the potential side effects from treatment. We then submit these concerns to doctors and medical researchers who then document results from further intensive research regarding the symptom itself. This is then cross referenced to determine if there is any evidence that there is, indeed, a side effect from the treatment itself. Measures are taken to correct this whenever possible. It is an ongoing project, but is meant to provide the safest and most side effect-free treatment as possible.

A Christian friend of mine who is a scientist works for a pharmaceutical company in the Research Triangle in North Carolina. He has explained that the process is similar for the pharmaceutical companies too. Not only do they perform vast amounts of peer-reviewed research BEFORE a medicine or vaccine is released, but they continuously perform tests AFTER it is released and review the research performed by outside medical researchers.

I strongly feel that personal research is important for those who might be diagnosed with an illness or who may be considering a vaccination. We should certainly study these matters with great objectivity and make decisions based upon prayerful consideration as we determine the right actions to take. If we are considering vaccination, we should consider what evidence is out there.

Vaccinations have worked effectively to eradicate some terrible viruses and diseases from this nation. Vaccines against polio, hepatitis A, diphtheria, the measles, the mumps, rubella and even smallpox have all but eliminated these diseases from nations with active vaccination programs. In addition, vaccinations have greatly limited the types of pandemics that have ravaged huge portions of entire populations in the past. Regardless of the criticisms, vaccinations (including the influenza vaccinations) have been proven to be an effective preventive measure against the targeted virus or disease. This really isn’t in dispute since the vast plethora of studies document their effectiveness. Vaccine criticism largely revolves around accusations of “side effects” that can develop from certain ingredients within the vaccination. In the influenza vaccination, critics have mentioned possible side effects such as mercury poisoning or as a factor in the development of autism. However, much medical research has looked into these rumors and has found no foundation of credibility.

Again, this is a matter of conscience. No one is forcing a person to take the swine flu vaccination. However, I have known several people whose parents “conscientiously objected” to the polio vaccine for “spiritual” reasons. They subsequently were stricken with polio as children, but survived and now live with the scars of their parents’ decision to this day. Oddly enough, the elderly parent of one of those men still feels that she made the “right choice” because she says that she “left her son in God’s hands.” Her son told me that he wishes that his mother would have considered the vaccination. There is an old Spanish axiom that might bear some consideration. When translated, it reads: “[i]Pray for daily bread, but go to work still[/i].”

:-)

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Lysa...

I only recently returned home, so I haven't had an opportunity to find those cases that I viewed over the past couple of days. However, I will look those up.

I find that your demand for "proof" is quite necessary. We should not simply take someone's word for granted. However, I would think that this same urgency for "proof" would also extend to the claims made by Joseph Mercola. When I first looked up each of these rumors via Google, his website was almost always on the first results page. I went through several of his "articles" (even though I had to register with his website just to view them). These articles are not peer-reviewed and do not contain much to anything in regard to medical research that would substantiate his criticisms of mainstream medical research.

Mainstream medical research depends upon multiple tests (often orchestrated in the hundreds) by different medical researcher and doctors. The data that is documented is analyzed and cross-analyzed in order to form a medical consensus. While there can be differences in opinion about certain issues of causality, the findings almost always point to a similar findings in regard to conclusions of the effectiveness of a particular medical procedure, vaccine or medicinal treatment.

I will certainly look up some of those court cases and court rulings and either post them in this thread...or via a PM. I might be busy over the next couple of days, but I will certainly do my best to dig up those legal docket/verdict sites that I viewed and show you what the courts and FDA ruled. Thanks! BTW, speaking of physical health, you should get some rest! Medical studies have proven that a good night of rest is essential for good health. Of course, that is another matter...

:-)

N
nearthecross

Wow, this thread is still going! :-)

Folks, let's put the vaccine controversy aside for a second...
Maybe the question we should be asking is, "Is it necessary to take vaccines at all?" The government strongly "recommends" that we take them, and schools, universities, and the media fill us with an abundance of information of how vaccines are necessary, and generally regarded as safe. But how many of us have really delved into the issue of alternative forms of preventive medicine? If there were a better, relatively inexpensive way for the general public to prevent getting the flu and other viruses, and to maintain themselves healthy, wouldn't you want to know it?

As it has already been mentioned, supplementing with good quality vitamins is one of the ways to do this. Additionally, a diet devoid of processed flour, sugar, and salt, and enriched with organic, nutrient-containing fruits, vegetables, and nuts. If your immune system is strong, you can't get sick (apart from an act of the Lord, of course).

For anyone interested, I would recommend the studies and research of two-time nobel prize winning chemist, Linus Pauling, and his studies on megadoses of vitamins, particularly vitamin C, on curing diseases. His studies have been replicated and confirmed by the research of many scientists, such as Dr. Thomas Levy, MD. Look up their books on amazon.com.

And as I mentioned before, I really recommend the following documentary, called "Dying to Have Known". You can watch it freely online. It's about a long-suppressed cancer treatment discovered by the late Dr. Max Gerson.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7357629140536485998&ei=nxnpSojICZTqqAP6k9X0Cg&q=dying+to+have+known&hl=en#

I would also recommend another documentary by the same director called "The Beautiful Truth". It's not available to watch online, but a trailer for it can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZmV8b1wr10

Anyway...more information for your consideration. The above is not "quackery" or "conspiracy-theorism". It involves scientifically-verified evidence proven by the process of replication, publication, and confirmation.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi nearthecross...

If there were a better, relatively inexpensive way for the general public to prevent getting the flu and other viruses, and to maintain themselves healthy, wouldn't you want to know it?

The average cost of the swine flu vaccination is currently $15. In many cases (especially for the poor, elderly or children), the vaccine is available free of charge. That seems to be quite "inexpensive" measure of preventive medicine by a method that is PROVEN (yes, proven by peer-reviewed, unbiased medical research) to be a highly effective in preventing the swine flu.

N
nearthecross

The average cost of the swine flu vaccination is currently $15. In many cases (especially for the poor, elderly or children), the vaccine is available free of charge. That seems to be quite "inexpensive" measure of preventive medicine...

Which is why I said [u]the flu[/u] and [u]other viruses[/u]. I wasn't referring specifically to any one flu or virus. There myriad types of flus and potentially harmful viruses and diseases out there. Getting vaccines for all of these, buying perscription medication and otc drugs regularly, and the additional costs of doctor visits can take its toll on your wallet. I know from experience, as do most other people.

EDIT:

A lifestyle change, on the other hand, may have an adittional cost as well, but for the most part it will involve a change in how you spend your money (e.g, instead of buying all that junk food and sweets, you use that money to buy organic produce and vitamins).

L
Lysa

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Lysa...

I find that your demand for "proof" is quite necessary. We should not simply take someone's word for granted. However, I would think that this same urgency for "proof" would also extend to the claims made by Joseph Mercola.
:-)


Chris,

I appreciate your answer and you know I'm all H1N1'd out! Please don't (unless someone else wants them), go to all the trouble of finding the articles/suits. This is unending, kinda like the gift of tongues debate and the pre-vs-post trib as well! Not near as hot but still many sides to it. I am more than satisfied with alternative medicine coupled with prayer.

Please watch that video nearthecross put up! There is one guy on there (a Dr at Stanford U), I was listening to him and said, "wow, that guy sounds just like Chris!" He believes wholeheartedly as you do that he is right. He probably is for some people! You can listen to him at the 23 minute mark to the 27 minute mark but please listen to the next story to the 30 minutes mark.

[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7357629140536485998&ei=nxnpSojICZTqqAP6k9X0Cg&q=dying+to+have+known&hl=en#]Dying to Have Known - Gerson Therapy[/url]

And I truly do not know if conventional or alternative medicine truly matters since some plant and some water but it's GOD WHO GIVES THE INCREASE! I will choose the alternative as best I can.

God bless you Chris!! Thanks for all your input!

S
sermonindex

There is an old Spanish axiom that might bear some consideration. When translated, it reads: “Pray for daily bread, but go to work still.”
I like that saying.
The average cost of the swine flu vaccination is currently $15
Come to Canada, it's free. :-P

There is a side affect of taking mega doses of Vitamin C and that is diarrhea. Paul's admonition is to do everything in moderation. At the onset of taking Vitamin C I would take about 2000mg, but there after it's not necessary to take such a huge amount. 500mg per day thereafter is enough to keep the vitamin resident without depletion. That is the whole idea of taking vitamins is that our bodies will have a continual supply, but loading up will be bad in the long run.

People have this idea that if it's natural than it must be good for you. Asbestos is natural but it's not good for us, it's best left in the ground, but if breathed in can hamper breathing and can be fatal. There are certain vitamins that should be carefully monitored so that too much is not taken in because the effects could make one sick.

I've studied alternative medicine for many years and have come to the conclusion that too much of a good thing can be bad.

You know, we can even apply this spiritually. Too much of the presence of God can make a weak Christian. Oh yes, it's a normal function in this life for believers to experience "dry" times. If we never went through anything bad, we'd be a torment to Christians that have. If you never said these words during your hard times, "LORD, where are you?", then you have never truly understood what it means to be "one of His". Being one of His involves the cross, it involves mountains, valleys, shipwrecks, shadows of death, loneliness, faith, depressions, oppressions, etc.. Even when we don't "feel" Him, we know that He is there, because He said that He would never leave us nor forsake us. He has given us a portion in this life, a balance that is not too extreme so that we are not only devouring one thing. It is our prayer that we get our "daily bread" straight from His mouth. But sometimes that is not always the case. When the brook dried up and the ravens have flown the coop it's time to move on and find out where God wants us to be so that He can give us more of that daily bread. Mind you, his bread (meat) is to do the will of God, it's not a selfish meat for our own to devour, for knowledge puffeth up but Charity edifieth. That simply means that knowledge without the act of sharing will only puff up. The Pharisees had knowledge but they held it back from the people, therefore they did not love, thus the LORD was very angry with them.

G
ginnyrose

DeepThinker,

Your comment about vitamin C is right on. After our son was diagnosed with acanthamoeba keratitis (he got a cornea transplant after the cornea burst) the doctor put him on heavy doses of vitamin C. He took it for a long time then when he came off of it, he got sick!

Too much of the presence of God can make a weak Christian.

But I disagree with this statement. Why? God knows what is best for us and He will monitor that...I do not have to decide on this and besides the devil will see to it that this won't happen! :-? DT, don't you want to rethink this? I have never heard of anyone having too much of God. There is no one in the Biblical record of having experienced this...please reconsider...

Blessings,
ginnyrose

EDIT: I am not disputing the purpose or existence of the dry times...does God not see this? Is this not in his control? How many dry seasons are caused by our own carelessness? I would guess most are...

S
sermonindex

He believes wholeheartedly as you do that he is right
Proverbs says, "Let another praise thee and not your own tongue".

Let me speak on behalf of Chris. He has presented information that he considers to be factual and not rumoured. He works in this type of field and has given to this thread data that is beneficial for those who are considering to take the vaccine. It's vital that we understand both the pro's and the con's of this medication. He has presented the pro's and has been questioned regarding the con's and has answered the questions in a calm manner to which I am satisfied.

We as Christians are the type of people to believe the worst about anything that is going in the world. We are at best, extremists. We like conspiracies. The alternative medicine industry thrives off of Christians because of the "conspiracies" we have put our trust in. Did you know that a conspiracy that is unfounded is a "wives tale"? It can be "slander" a "lie", an "assumption".

It's like the guy that was going to be elected to the board of a Church but when they found out that God saved him from homosexuality they dropped him from the list. Yet they elected a man who had an unclean spirit which no one could discern. We are extremists. We believe in what we see instead of what the "Spirit is saying". The first man wasn't elected because of a lie. He was not a homosexual at the time of the election, that man in his past died with Christ to which the Church did not recognize. The man with the unclean spirit had a perfect record, but secretly he was the devil. That Church went down hill because of the conspiracy that no one is ever free from homosexuality.

S
sermonindex

There is no one in the Biblical record of having experienced this...please reconsider...
Jesus did! "My God my God, why hast thou forsaken me"?

Love your thoughts Ginny, keep it up.

G
ginnyrose

Jesus did! "My God my God, why hast thou forsaken me"?

hmmm...never thought of that before, but God was in control there, though. Oh well, got too many other (EDIT) things to do then split hairs about this!

Take care...

ginnyrose

M
Miccah


nearthecross wrote:



Maybe the question we should be asking is, "Is it necessary to take vaccines at all?"


If it cures a disease (or almost wipes it out) as sister Ginnyrose srtates about Polio, then yes, it should be necessary.

If is is about furthering a governmental agenda, then no, it should not be necessary.


As for me and my house...

M
Miccah


DeepThinker wrote:



Come to Canada, it's free. :-P


Free, or paid by the citizens? 8-) :-P

S
sermonindex

"You know, we can even apply this spiritually. Too much of the presence of God can make a weak Christian. Oh yes, it's a normal function in this life for believers to experience "dry" times. If we never went through anything bad, we'd be a torment to Christians that have. If you never said these words during your hard times, "LORD, where are you?", then you have never truly understood what it means to be "one of His". Being one of His involves the cross, it involves mountains, valleys, shipwrecks, shadows of death, loneliness, faith, depressions, oppressions, etc.. Even when we don't "feel" Him, we know that He is there, because He said that He would never leave us nor forsake us. He has given us a portion in this life, a balance that is not too extreme so that we are not only devouring one thing. It is our prayer that we get our "daily bread" straight from His mouth. But sometimes that is not always the case. When the brook dried up and the ravens have flown the coop it's time to move on and find out where God wants us to be so that He can give us more of that daily bread. Mind you, his bread (meat) is to do the will of God, it's not a selfish meat for our own to devour, for knowledge puffeth up but Charity edifieth. That simply means that knowledge without the act of sharing will only puff up. The Pharisees had knowledge but they held it back from the people, therefore they did not love, thus the LORD was very angry with them."

HI deepthinker, love the first part of this thought, although I would put the emphasis on the human side, meaning that we would get sick, not becuase of an abundance of the presence of God but because of the weakness of our flesh which I am sure is what you meant. Then the flip side of course is not having experienced the presence of God or it having been a one-time experience. One encounter with God does not a Christian make :) Its the abiding and so on, again I am sure you agree. The second part of the above quote, in rgeard to the Pharisees. There was nothing that they had that could help the people. They had a head knowledge, but the kind on knowledge that saves is not a head knowledge but a heart knowledge, meaning an initmacy with Jesus where we can truthfully state that we "know," Him, and of course, He "knows," us. We know that God has all "knowledge," yet he says too many in that day who call Him Lord to depart from me , you workers of iniquity, for I never "knew," you.

"Jesus did! "My God my God, why hast thou forsaken me"?"

Amen brother, that is the part of the agony of Calvary and truly a mystery as to the true depths of the suffering that took place on the cross, and let us not forget the agony of the Father as He watched His Son suffer torment and turned His face away. This is the essence of Calvary and the only expalnation is "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever..............." .......Frank

S
sermonindex

I was looking up some of my ancestors trying to piece that line together as they seem to disappear at certain point. I came across one of them in Massachusetts who was part of the building of the Colonies in 1700 and fighting with the Pentucket Indians . But what I noticed that on his death marker it reads, "victim of the throat distemper epidemic". Whole families were wiped out over this epidemic within a short time. This was a type of the flu that was making it's way through that area.

One of the treatments for these types of outbreaks were:

The colonists attacked coughs and colds with catnip tea or a tea made from dried Elder blossoms and Peppermint leaves. The most potent medicinal tea, however, was concocted from hard cider, and cayenne pepper a la red hotpoker. Influenza, or "bone break fever" was equally troublesome in colonial times, although its treatment was probably more exotic than effective. The herb Thoroughwort was widely used and application to this purpose earned it the common name, Boneset. In the treatment of influenza and related upper respiratory infections, moreover, it was important that the patient be well greased, preferably with skunk oil prepared by simmering a fat skunk and skimming the fat from the top of the water. This residue was applied both externally and internally. This odor-ridden approach seems rather severe until one reflects on Vick's Vaporub.
[url=http://community.middlebury.edu/~mcgill/HubbardtonWebPages/Chapter%2015/colonialmedicine.html]Source[/url]

S
sermonindex

Well tomorrow I take the Vaccine. There has been a short supply of it for about a month, but now they have the supply.

I was talking to my Sister in law and she was saying she doesn't care too much for the H1N1 because it's all hype, she said she was glad to get the Booster shot which helps fight against pneumonia and other ailments. But I am glad we are finally getting it done.

Thanks Chris for all your information. And thank God for giving scientist the ability to put these formulas together.

N
nearthecross

Well tomorrow I take the Vaccine.

I prayed for you, DeepThinker. Hope all turned out
well.

N
nearthecross

Here are various reports that all those still wondering about this topic should consider.

I ecourage everyone to study hard before making any decisions that will affect your health, and most of all to trust in the Lord for guidance.

From CTV News in Canada:

[b]Batch of H1N1 vaccine pulled after bad reactions[/b]

"More than 100,000 doses of the H1N1 vaccine are being withdrawn across the country, after Manitoba health officials announced Thursday they'd noticed a higher-than-usual number of allergic reactions from one batch....

[url=http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20091119/Flu_Reaction_091119/20091119?hub=Health]Read more here.[/url]


From Newsblaze.com:

[b]H1N1 Vaccine Side Effects Memorandum Issued by Turkish Republic[/b]

"Ministry of Health of Turkish Republic has sent a memorandum recently, to all the vaccination centres in Turkey, outlining the common and seldom seen but very frightening side effects of the swine flu vaccine. These were published in Milliyet Daily under the heading "Korkutan Yan Etkiler" (Frightening Side Effects)..."
[url=http://newsblaze.com/story/20091115081112tsop.nb/topstory.html]Read more here.[/url]


From straight.com:

[b]What’s in your H1N1 flu vaccine?[/b]

"Chris Shaw wasn’t always skeptical about vaccines. The neuroscientist at the University of British Columbia had his teenage son vaccinated with most of the recommended shots. But then he started studying some of the ingredients commonly found in vaccines.

"What he discovered caused him to go cold turkey on all shots for his six-year-old daughter. And that includes the vaccine for the H1N1 flu.

“'I am not convinced H1N1 is sufficiently hazardous to most people to risk the potential downside of the vaccine,' Shaw said over the phone from his office in the research pavilion at the Vancouver Coastal Health Authority.

"Shaw isn’t an easily dismissed vaccine conspiracy theorist. He is a leading expert on amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS, or Lou Gehrig’s disease) and Parkinson’s disease. While investigating unusually high rates of ALS and other neurological disorders among veterans who have Gulf War syndrome, he found evidence that the cause may have been aluminum salt, an ingredient in the cocktail of vaccines given to soldiers before deployment.

"Although aluminum salt isn’t present in the H1N1 vaccine, Shaw’s discovery made him concerned about other vaccines, including the swine-flu shot. He isn’t alone in his thoughts..."
[url=http://www.straight.com/article-270843/vancouver/whats-your-vaccine]Read more here.[/url]


From MSNBC.com:

[b]Shots on horizon for Alzheimer's, AIDS, herpes
New technology, lure of profits behind booming interest in making vaccines[/b]

"...Vaccines are no longer a sleepy, low-profit niche in a booming drug industry. Today, they're starting to give ailing pharmaceutical makers a shot in the arm.

"The lure of big profits, advances in technology and growing government support has been drawing in new companies, from nascent biotechs to Johnson & Johnson. That means recent remarkable strides in overcoming dreaded diseases and annoying afflictions likely will continue."
[url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33979090/ns/health-infectious_diseases/]Read more here.[/url]

S
sermonindex

I prayed for you, DeepThinker. Hope all turned out well.
Thank you for your prayers, believe me, I prayed too. Only two people didn't take it in our care facility. My arm is still sore where it went in but that is to be expected. I will probably take a metal toxic herbal cleanse sometime after Christmas to get the levels of metals down a bit as I eat a lot of fish, especially salmon and trout which have mercury in it. And since the vaccine has mi-nute levels of mercury, I want to get that level down.

When the nurse came to set everything up she had to mix the vaccine with another drug. I was also told that the Booster shot was included in the shot. When my Mother and Sister got theirs earlier, the Booster was not yet made available.

There has been a mixed reaction from some people. I've heard that the H1N1 is nothing to get up in the night about, it's the Booster shot that people are looking for. As one person put it, "the H1N1 is just a smoke screen, I want the Booster".

This will be the last injection. If there has to be another injection on top of what we already got because of this swine flu, I am not going to take it.

N
nearthecross

Glad things went well!

As for the mercury exposure, I would recommend Dr. Russel Blaylock's treatment protocol for vaccine exposure, which you can find on the first page of this thread (Lysa's post, the very last one).

Also, vitamins C and D are great for the immune system. Especially vitamin C; with it you can both prevent and treat the flu, along with most other viral infections and diseases, rendering the use of vaccines completely unnecessary.

And check out the following website, by Andrew Saul, PhD. You can find hundreds of articles on natural health, and treating diseases through diet and vitamin supplements. He offers invaluable advice, and points you to scientifically verified and peer-reviewed sources.
It's helped me out a lot, I highly recommend it!

http://www.doctoryourself.com

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