Effective Praying

I didn't want to "taint" the other post with my personal speculations, so I am starting this one. I am reading E.M. Bounds right now and Ravenhill has been one of my greatest influences. However, I have often wondered something about these men and others like them. What was the effect of their praying and intercession? I know that we may not be able to tell here on earth, but it just makes me wonder. Why do we listen to men about prayer if there's little to no proof that there prayer was effective? I mean, sure, we can speculate about how their prayer truly was effective, but from what I can tell it wasn't apparent. Now I have my own theory about Ravenhill that has let me believe that his prayer was extremely effective, but did revival really come to where he was, how he was praying for it? How about Bounds? Yeah, he has a lot of great things to say about prayer, but what was the fruit of his prayers? Once again, one can formulate theories or just give the classic "just because we can't really tell right now doesn't mean..." but what gives these men a more legitmate platform to talk about these things? And why do we listen to and believe them? Just because they read a lot of books and talked a lot about it and seemed to be extreme? But did it work? This has been troubling me for some time now so I just wanted to get it out there. I think other perspectives would be really helpful.

Dear Todd and Friends,I think I recognise the same dissatisfied urgency in your words, Todd, as I find in my own heart.The men of old had something to say about the fellowship with the Lord because of their personal experience of the ministry of the interior.But, I find, or better we all find, this kind of distress, this kind of displeasure in relation to the results on the horizontal level. Ravenhill expresses this dissatisfaction in repeated calls for men of stature, who dare to give themselves to the Altar: “We need to get humble enough, low enough, desperate enough, hungry enough, concerned enough , passionate enough broken enough, passionate enough, clean, enough and prayerful enough, then God will send us a revival….” – Sodom had no Bible.Words like these produce a holy anxiety – I must lay hold of the ways and means to be able to be heard in Heaven for the sake of the glory of God. Then this may cause certain results on Earth.Todd, you do well in bringing forth this provocative question.We need to walk an inner path with God which produces results in the seen, a presence of Christ to be ministered into our daily surroundings.Lars

Reminds me of what Jim Cymbala said: "I despaired at the thought that my life might slip by without seeing God show himself mightly on our behalf. Carol and I didn't want merely to mark time. I longed and cried out for God to change everything- me, the church, our passion for people, our praying. ....always preaching about thepower of the Word and the Spirit, but never seeing it."From "Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire"It appears his prayers were answered, why not the others?Could it be that Cymbala was able to rally his church around the central focus of being a praying church? Power in numbers? I am speculating here of course, when Peter was locked up there was quite a few together praying but I wouldn't want to make that some type of formula.I do catch your drift though, and follow along the line of thinking in 'yet future'...Is it not possible that God has used these men to prompt just a question as this? To spur us on?I also tend to be a 'bottom line' thinker.Since I believe that God never waste's anything, be it suffering, financial setback...ALL things work together for good ....So, 'yet future' may not be a cop out after all.Surely more questions than answers..

Do we dare to speak about effective prayer as understanding, or at least being in line with God’s sovereign choice of time or timing, specific vessel and circumstances.One man is seemingly enough at times. Sometimes unity among believers is an imperative.The big gatherings are seldom a solution. They are rather to be perceived as an obstacle, the way we conduct them.A prayer team carrying on for 100 years created a missions effort that has few equals.It looks like it all boils down to how God want to use our intercession. We need to look for a very special dynamics, an essence which makes it fit together with heavenly incense – Rev 8:3One has not prayed until it is all prayed through.You are not finished in prayer until you have prayed through.Do we have patience enough to wait before the Lord on his terms.

Todd,I had actually put my Ravenhill books aside for a while during a spiritually cool time in my life do to the same thought. I begin to wonder what was point of all the time that this man spent in prayer when for the most part America has remained unchanged. I began to trade in Ravenhills prayer approach for the man made approach at being effective for God. To me it seamed that it's the great motivators and leaders who were truly making a difference. Men who were building great churches because of there great leadership and ability to motivate. I read books on leadership, time management, etc. During this time in my life, prayer was something I did, not someting I lived (Oh how cold I really was!). For a while Ravenhill was old news in my life. It has only been during these past few months that my love for him has once again returned. With the return of this love for his writings comes the questing again - What did all his prayer get him? Now I have an answer.His prayer may not have changed the world, but I am sure that it has changed my life. I have never read anyone's writing that effect me as Ravenhill. His books burn me in the heart. As I read his books I can't hardly get through a chapter without falling on my face before God. Where does this power come from?..... He was a man of prayer. It is obvious that he has effected the lives of many of us on this sight, I believe that his prayers are still changing the world through us. Where I now find my leadership and self help books dull and lifeless, Ravenhill's writings remain on fire. He did not pray in vain. If my life and prayers are spent to inspire just on person to hunger after God as Ravenhil has inspired me, it will have been spent well.PJ

your quote "So, 'yet future' may not be a cop out after all."John 4:37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Thanks everyone. I believe I agree with all of you. And I have had similar experiences with Ravenhill. Both his writings and his sermons stir me up. I guess this is more of a general question. WHy do we listen to people who talk about revival and how to get it but don't experience it over those that talk about it and experience it? I don't care how much they stir me, this just seems strange. They may be right about a lot of things, but wrong in some areas. THis is one reason why I am so attracted to FInney and his works. He talked it and walked it. I am in no way belittleing the works and accomplishments (be they obvious or not) of these other men, but it just makes sense to me to read about revival from men who lived it and brought it with them. It makes sense to read about how to pray from men who had such obvious success with it. It doesn't mean others are wrong, but since we only have so much time for reading, I would think it wise to start and focus on those who were proven effective. For me, Ravenhill might be in this category, but not for necessarily obvious reasons, some of which others have already mentioned. He is more mysterious to me which is great. Yes, we may never know how effective any man truly has been in prayer, and therefore cannot judge. I guess it's just a simple thing of logic I am dealing with here. Who shall we go to for advice? God must lead us, but some sources seem to have been stamped "valid" by the obvious effects they had. It doesn't mean everything they wrote is right, but it's a good/better bet than someone who didn't experience what they taught. As my friend told me yesterday:"Don't take stock in men. Only take stock in God."

just another thought!Ravenhill and Finney lived in two totally different times. I personally believe that if Finney lived in our time that he would not experience the same effectiveness in ministry as he did during his time. There was sin conscienceness on the earth during his time, covicition came easier (my beliefe!). In our day there is really no such thing as sin, making any real move of God that much more difficult. I believe that the man of God for this hour will have to be more than Finney or any other man of the past.Just my thoughts,PJ

Is it not God who moves according to His own good pleasure? In His own timing?Moses never saw the promised land.Is it men who produce the desired results or is it results produced by God through the use of man?Here is another way to look at it. What if God were to jump into the middle of this conversation and say "Brethren, I am proud of the way you have sought after Me, I have heard your prayers. I am going to send a revival that the world has yet to ever see, nor will ever be seen again. Now, some of you may be around to see it and others of you will not because I will be taking you home to be with me before it comes. If you do not continue in prayer, if you do not continue to seek Me with all your heart and pray for this, if you do not proclaim it in the church, I will not send it and the world will suffer great loss because you did not adhere to this word I have sent you."This would put us in quite a dilema. In fact it is the dilema we are in right now. If He were to promise it unconditionaly, we would in our naturalness, our ever fluctuating moods eventualy just fall into the easy habit of 'why bother He is going to do it anyway'. If it was attached with conditions to pray and fast and seek and we knew that we may well miss it, again we would fall into the same trap, 'why bother, I may not live to see it anyway'.So the last option is the only reasonable one. Pray, seek Him with all your heart, mind and spirit, it may be incumbant on us to secure it for our children or even our childrens children.Besides, there is also the possibilty that we may just behold it with our own eyes!Shall we give up, after those who travailed in prayer before us, making us "the generation that grew weary"?Or will we take the baton and run?Great are the mysterys of God.I pray this makes sense.

Yeah brother!Let's take up the baton!Let's go for it!

There may not be as much sin conciousness in our time on the earth... but I believe one of our problems is that there isn't much fire in our time. If there was fire, there would be more conciousness. Another thing is that we are "fishers of men" fishing for a certain type of fish... the rich that can fund the building projects and those that we want, not the ones that really want it. Strange to say, but it's true. We'd rather have a rich and handsome person come to our services than a ugly and poor person. I believe, aside from this, that everyone has that "God shaped vaccume" in their life that they are longing to fill. I believe everyone has a basic knowledge of what sin is and that they are committing sin, they just don't want to face it. ***Experiment*** I acted like a 100% liberal and acted like it was "O.K." for others to be homosexual. I had a few conversations with them and made it clear that I thought there was nothing wrong with it (of course I do, but this was long ago). They still insisted that it was not a choice, but it was hereditary (which I don't believe). Even they had a conciousness that it was wrong, and they try to escape that with the "it's not my fault, it's the way I am" routine. Regardless of whether or not you believe this, I don't want to get in a discussion about it, but even when the social "taboo's" of homosexuality are taken away, they still feel convicted enough of it, to the point where they feel they must not take blame for it, but place the blame on God. I do believe that we are placed in this time period for a reason, we are handed the tools, and we are supposed to be following the instructions of our maker to be doing his work. I believe we have what we need. *WE* are the Finney's, the Ravenhill's, the Wesley's. The world is ripe, the overripe wheat is beginning to fall to the ground, it is so ripe. "White and ready to harvest", Jesus said it himself. The world has a sin conciousness, some sort of one. They just need to be presented the truths of the bible...Lets Go!

Zapthycat wrote:I do believe that we are placed in this time period for a reason, we are handed the tools, and we are supposed to be following the instructions of our maker to be doing his work. I believe we have what we need. *WE* are the Finney's, the Ravenhill's, the Wesley's. The world is ripe, the overripe wheat is beginning to fall to the ground, it is so ripe. "White and ready to harvest", Jesus said it himself. The world has a sin conciousness, some sort of one. They just need to be presented the truths of the bible...Lets Go!I hear ya! At times I have ached to live in a time long ago, but most recently I realize that God placed me at this time in history for a reason. What an awesome responsibility! He did not place me here to live my life in vain. We must step up and become the people that God intended for us to be. We must give up our rights to ourselves and take seriously the thing of God. 2nd Timothy 2:4 No one who wareth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life...Not only are we the Ravenhills, Finneys, etc - but much greater still, we are called to be like Christ. His is the standard that I am reaching for. In this day and time nothing else will do. It is exciting to see that others are being stirred. Is it coincidence that so many are fealing the same thing?How did I ever live with out this burning in my heart?!! What did I ever find exciting in the world?!! How can others not see what I see? How can anyone take lightly the things of God?! Oh, God, please open their eyes!PJ

We'd rather have a rich and handsome person come to our services than a ugly and poor person.If he is full of the spirit you could put a stray dog up there for all I care! (remember Baalam's donkey!)I have a vauge recollection of a story about an eloquent speaker/preacher that gave an outstanding message finishing with a certain passage and the crowd stood and applauded.An old man (maybe an elder) got up and read the same exact passage, straight forward....and the people wept.

PJIs it coincidence that so many are fealing the same thing?How did I ever live with out this burning in my heart?!! What did I ever find exciting in the world?!! How can others not see what I see? How can anyone take lightly the things of God?! Oh, God, please open their eyes!"coincidence"Just started a new post in the lounge on this interesting 'phenomenon', would love to hear your feedback...boy, this is getting very interesting.P.S. since I had to look up the spelling of 'phenomenon'...here is a definition:"an outword sign of the working of a law of nature" And what is our new nature?;-)

crsschk wrote:P.S. since I had to look up the spelling of 'phenomenon'... My dictionary now gets alot more use. With out the benefit of 'spell check' I find myself often looking up words, trying to avoid the embarrasment of posting too many misspelled words. Smith Wigglesworth (Who did not recieve the a formal education, and who only learned to read in his twenties) wrote a letter one time and apparently spelled 'Holy Spirit' several different ways. When the recipiant of the letter brought this to Wigglesworth attention he ask, "Did you understand what it meant?" When the recipiant said that he did, Wigglesworth replied, "then that's all that really matters". Hmmm, that just might become my new motto. PJ

Quote:"Smith Wigglesworth (Who did not recieve the a formal education, and who only learned to read in his twenties) wrote a letter one time and apparently spelled 'Holy Spirit' several different ways. When the recipiant of the letter brought this to Wigglesworth attention he ask, "Did you understand what it meant?" When the recipiant said that he did, Wigglesworth replied, "then that's all that really matters". Hmmm, that just might become my new motto."I like that. That's good stuff. Do you remember where you read or heard about that?

I read it in one of his biographys. Probably in "Smith Wigglesworth, The Secret of His Power". I'll try to look it up tonight and let you know.PJ

It was the book I thought...Smith Wigglesworth, The Secret of His PowerBy; Albert Hibbertpg. 29Exact wording:Smith gave all he had, even in relation to grammar, to his Lord. He once wrote a letter to a university graduate. The next time this person saw Smith, he said, "You know, you spelled the title of the Holy Spirit seven different ways in your letter."Wigglesworth replied, "Did you understand it?""Oh, yes."Then Wigglesworth said, "Thank God, that's all that matters."PJ

That's kinda funny, because that's what I say when I misspell something to someone. Especially when chatting.It's the end result that matters, the traditions of men avail little if anything.

Our spiritual life as a believer depends essentially on the importance of the role of prayer in our lives. It is by prayer that we are saved, and it is only by prayer that we can remain saved, sanctified, and strong for this race that is set before us.Brother Ravenhill used to say, “A sinning man will stop praying, but a praying man will stop sinning”. It is impossible to keep sin in our lives if we are daily coming into the holy presence of God. God is a consuming fire, and He will burn away all that is unholy in us if we keep ourselves in His love.God only comes to those who ask Him to come; and He cannot refuse to come to those who implore Him long, often, and ardently.~ Simone WeilThere is nothing that makes us love a man so much as praying for him.~ William Law

…Brother Ravenhill used to say, “A sinning man will stop praying, but a praying man will stop sinning”. It is impossible to keep sin in our lives if we are daily coming into the holy presence of God. God is a consuming fire, and He will burn away all that is unholy in us if we keep ourselves in His love.There is an endless and futile quest going on, generated by a need to stay in touch with what is of this world, a quest for ”windows of opportunity”. It is a contradiction of what is timeless. It is a contradiction to what is gathered up in the purpose of the House. This quest is summed up in the small, but indeed pertinent question: ”What is God doing now?”. ”We have to stay in touch with what God is doing now.” This way of perceiving reality is an outcome of a faulty understanding of who God is and what he has in mind as to purpose and goal. Do we dare to search for one single point of change in him? The whole concept of godhood would disintegrate if we were to find such a point in his being or in his dealings with man, which were to be submitted to change.Where do you live your life? Do you live your life before the Throne with eternal elements in view. Or do you live amidst earthly change which forces you to change and make changes any and every minute according to the whims of a society which has made arbitrary rule its lord and saviour. Do you live by words from pastors and so called prophets ringing in your ears who declare this and then that and then moving on to the next thing, never waiting for anything to come true, never working anything through to a solid fulfilment. How do you live your Christian life? Is the Father to find anything of timeless value, of Heaven, at the core of your living and loving? Is the world to find anything there which is worth taking heed of reacting to?From Intercession spells interventionL. W.

I really feel that there are alot of people on this site that are serious about seeking God. I believe we need to pray to him and seek Him until he revives our hearts and our families, communities, churches, cities, and countries! Excellent!These are all great replys, also love that Wiel quote...Anyone ever read "The Practice of the Presence of God the Best Rule of a Holy Life" By Brother Lawrence ? (I will have to find the link, I think I got it from CCEL.org)In a nutshell it is 'prayer without ceasing', I have been aware of the 'practice' for quite awhile now, to the point where if my thoughts are not directed or in communion with God I notice it. It is a practice though, a continual practice, in a way it's that 24 hours a day realization that we are never out of His watchful care, a constant recognition of that fact and a turning our attention to it. Highly recommended.Mike_/crsschk\\_

Yes, I liked that Brother Lawrence book very much.I would also highly recommend the following:How to Pray by RA TorreyPower Through Prayer by EM BoundsRevival Praying by Leonard RavenhillWith Christ in the School of Prayer by Andrew MurrayRees Howells Intercessor by Norman GrubbYes, somehow we always seem to be plauged by a need to stay in touch with what is of this world. I think it was Pascal who said that most of the unneeded calamity in our lives is caused because we cannot simply sit still and remain at home in quiet contemplation before God.We always have to be out and about trying to find something to entertain ourselves, and when we do finally come home, we have to have the TV or the radio on so that we will not hear the voice of eternity convicting us of the sin of prayerlessless in our lives.OUCH! That convicted me just saying it! God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He does not change, yet still he is in touch with what is going on in this modern world. There is nothing that is unexpected to Him. God deals with man as He has always dealt with man. What was wrong 100 years ago is still wrong today, old-fashioned or not.I think that "Where do you live your life?" is a good question we should be asking ourselves every day. I think it was Catherine Booth who said that in every generation, the majority is always wrong, and that the number of righteous persons will be few, but we should make it a priority to be numbered among those few. If you have an overwhelming sense that you're unpopular, then you might just be doing something right.

Here is the linkBrother LawrenceThanks Taka,What was wrong 100 years ago is still wrong today, old-fashioned or not.Isn't it funny how man has coined words to evade dealing with the truth? "old-fashioned" Can you apply this to other area's of fixed law, like say, gravity, or oxygen. I have yet to see any improvements from attempts at changing sin into acceptence. Murder hasn't gotten nicer, drunkeness hasn't made any advancements, lying, stealing and cheating still lie, steal and cheat, adultry, homosexuality, coveteousness, greed and gluttony have not changed the results of their actions to anyone's betterment. Love will always triumph over hate. They are neither 'old' nor 'fashioned', they just are. I think that "Where do you live your life?" is a good question we should be asking ourselves every day. I think it was Catherine Booth who said that in every generation, the majority is always wrong, and that the number of righteous persons will be few, but we should make it a priority to be numbered among those few. If you have an overwhelming sense that you're unpopular, then you might just be doing something right.Amen. I pray that we stay unpopular in that sense, not feeling smug about it, but with sadness.

Hey CrssChk,Finished reading WRT yet? For the 5th time? :-D-JW

I cannot but hand in two small items from Tozer’s books on Brother Lawrence:Worshiping God—that was primary for Brother Lawrence. He was also dying, but that was secondary. He knew why he had been born into this world—and he knew why he had been born again.Yes, and Brother Lawrence is still worshiping God. He died and they buried his body somewhere, but his was a living soul, created in the image of God. So, he is still worshiping with all the saints around the throne of God.Sad, sad indeed, are the cries of so many today who have never discovered why they were born. It brings to mind the poet Milton’s description of the pathetic lostness and loneliness of our first parents. Driven from the garden, he says “they took hand in hand and through the valley made their solitary way.”A. W. TozerWhatever happened to WorshipThere was Brother Lawrence, the man who practiced the presence of God. He wouldn’t pick up a straw from the ground but for the love of God. When he was dying, they said, “What are you doing, Brother Lawrence?” He said, “I’m doing what I plan to do through all eternity—worship God. When I die I won’t change my occupation. I have just been worshiping God for 40 years on earth, and when I get to heaven I’ll just keep right on doing what I am doing.”A. W. TozerThe Councelor

Hey Zapthycat!Not yet, been kinda busy with work...and other distractions..Still savoring "Pursuit"..Only up to chapter 4 in WRT and I find I will probably be taking this one in small doses as well!

lwpray,Incredible!The things I learn from this site! I didn't even know there was a thread running through these two men...not that I am surprised by it. Thanks for sharing! Planning on picking up all of Tozers work's eventually....Great stuff!Mike

Aiden Wilson Tozer refers to Brother Lawrence quite often, as he does to a couple of other writers who walked the inner way in prayer and worship a long way back in time.You have some task before you if you decide on beginning to collect and to read A. W. Tozer - some 50 books or so.It is worth every dollar, every twist and turn along the way to gather them all.Lars

Mike,Some help on the way:61 titles by A. W TozerBooks and booklets The Attributes of GodBorn After MidnightThe Best of AW. TozerThe Best of AW. Tozer: Book TwoThe Bible: An Unchanging Book in an Ever-changing World (booklet)The Coming KingChrist the Eternal Son The Christian Book Of Mystical VerseThe CounselorThe Early Tozer: A Word in SeasonEchoes from EdenFaith Beyond ReasonFive Vows for Spiritual PowerGod's Greatest Gift to Man (booklet)God Tells the Man Who CaresGems from TozerHow to Be Filled with the Holy Spirit I Call It HeresyI Talk Back to the DevilJesus, Author of Our FaithJesus is VictorJesus, Our Man in GloryThe Knowledge of the HolyLeaning into the WindLet My People GoMan: The Dwelling Place of GodMen Who Met GodThe Next Chapter After The Last Of God and MenThe Old Cross and the New (booklet)Paths to PowerThe Price of NeglectThe Pursuit of God: A 31-Day ExperiencePursuit of GodRenewed Day By Day, Volume OneRenewed Day By Day, Volume TwoThe Root of the RighteousRut, Rot, or RevivalThe Quotable TozerThe Quotable Tozer IIThe Set of the Sail The Size of the SoulSuccess and the ChristianAW. Tozer and A.B. Simpson on Spiritual Warfare (booklet) That Incredible ChristianThose Amazing Methodists (booklet)Total Commitment to Christ: What Is It? (booklet)Tragedy in the Church: The Missing GiftsThose Amazing MethodistsThe Tozer Pulpit, Volume OneThe Tozer Pulpit, Volume TwoTozer on Worship and Entertainment The Waning Authority of Christ in the Churches (booklet)When He is comeWingspreadWe Travel an Appointed WayWhatever Happened to Worship?Who Put Jesus on the Cross?Worship: The Missing Jewel (booklet)The Warfare of the SpiritThis World: Playground or BattlegroundWith no claim regarding completeness or absolute correctness. Last update August 28, 2003Please, help completing the list by telling us here on this web siteSend also a comment on additions and corrections to the source of the list, Intercessors.Network@Telia.com

Thanks Lars!

Brother Ravenhill, who had a profound effect on most of the men who were responsible for bringing me up in the faith, was a really big fan of AW Tozer's books. Here are my favorites:The Knowledge of the HolyPursuit of GodThe Root of the RighteousWhen He is ComeIf you haven't read any of Tozer, I would start with those. When He is Come is probably the best book I've ever read on the Holy Spirit.