Hi everyone...today wasn't the best of days, as this kept going through my mind...I wanted to ask you all something...Has hell ever been a struggle for any of you? I don't think I can ever be saved by God as long as I am bothered by the concept of an eternal hell...I envy people who say with the utmost conviction that hell is too good a place for them because it makes the mercy of God so much sweeter to them...and here I'm struggling because the idea of eternal punishment frightens and bothers me so much...if any of you struggled with that, how did you come out of it? Thanks...sorry if my posts have become bothersome to you all
Guys, I don't think I'm ever going to be saved
Eternal hell or eternal heaven or eternity itself can be a struggle for many. But whats happening is that your fleshly mind is creating another excuse to not submitt to the free gift of God in Jesus Christ. Perhaps you "value" your struggling thoughts more than you "value" God Himself? Jesus was God the Word. He then "valued" you, Jdl, so much that He emptied himself of his Godhood and became a man. He became a man and was willing to be humuliated for Jdl. Yes, humuliated for your struggles and unbelief. He was beaten by those He created. He was Killed by those He loved and cared for.
Can you imagine any earthly King, President, or Business man leaving all his riches and position to die in your place??
But it dosen't end there. Jesus raised himself from the dead. Proving that He was the Son of God with Power!!!! He can raise you from your dead state right now...if..only you would believe Him instead of doudting Him.
I hope this helps you. We all love you and want to see your "struggle" end and come into the rest in Jesus Christ alone!
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom...
Greetings Jdl
Yes I have struggled with the idea of hell. The thought that some of those that I love may end up suffering eternity there. I have laid awake at night and cried and prayed that the hearts of loved ones would be changed. That mothers, brothers, sisters, family and friends would see their need for Him and repent. I have shared with these same family and friends about Jesus over and over only to have them reject Him. All I can tell you is that when I looked into the mirror and I saw myself as I am, a sinner, corrupt, wicked, with nothing good inside of me, and then I looked to the cross and I saw Jesus, I knew. I knew with out a doubt that I deserved hell and so did all those family and friends of mine. He suffered, He paid the price, He sacrificed and endured all for me, and for you. Each one of us deserves hell but God is so merciful that He sent His only son to save us. For those who turn to Jesus, submit their life to Him, repent of their sin there is a promise of salvation and life with Him. Hell should frighten us, it is a terrifying place, but it is a place that each one who rejects His son not only deserves but belongs. I do not say this easily, it weighs heavy on my heart that those I love may spend eternity suffering, but they do so by their own choice and continued living for self.
God Bless
maryjane
Hi,
I think I will say 2 things.
First,
I don't really think you would have a problem with justice.
I mean if some person murdered your family in some horrid way in cold blood you wouldn't mind him being judged for it.
So, the problem might be in that you do not think God is being just in sending men to hell.
This might root from you not thinking mans sin is bad enough to deserve such a punishment.
The fact is though that sin is a very weighty thing.
Especially when seen in the true light of the true holiness of God.
Man is not only accountable for lying or sinning against man but against God.
The Gospel which is a lofty mercy from God raise the bar for accountability. A great salvation if neglect leads to a great judgment.
When one sins against an eternal God they receive an eternal judgment.
Not only this, but when one walks proudly before God if His anger is justly kindled he will take more then an eye for an eye. For instance if a man took the life of your child his life would not be enough to satisfy your desire for justice. You would be so righteously angry you would want 3 of His.
When a man sins against God they are not just sinning against anyone. They are sinning against a King, a Savior, the Groom of the Bride the Church, against "God" who receives all glory and honor, ect.
We do not see the weight of sin until we experience it. When we sin against someone it is not so bad. When they sin against us it is huge and that person so evil for we feel the consequence of their sin.
We have a problem loving our neighbor. We are offended to the person next to us because we are effected by them relationally, but not so much the man across the world. However, God is relationally connected to every person in the world even more so then we our neighbor for even their hearts effect Him. Imagine billions of people with bilions and billions of sins all touching the heart of God personally and imagine if you had to endure that when you cannot even endure a couple from your neighbor.
In addition look at what the world has done. World war 2, slavery, human trafficking, neglecting the poor, pride, fellowship with darkness, and a hate for God by loving sin.
Secondly,
It is not as if everyone gets the same amount of judgment. I know that all who are not with Christ will go to the lake of fire for eternity, but there will be different levels of punishment therein. So Stalin, Hitler, and others will be judged much worse then others.
I will end by saying that I empathize with you in some sense. I mean some are offended by earthly judgments, but neglect to think of those coming later. This is largely due in part to not believing it or not being sincere enough to acknowledge it. So, I respect the fact that you are looking at things truthfully. This though is in fact the truth. This truth is not easy to receive. If it were easy to receive it probably would not be the truth. This great judgment speaks to us of the great sacrifice and love God has given us in Christ. It speaks of the great evil of mankind to deserve such a penalty. It speaks of the greatness of God and His lofty holiness and love and eternality.
In the end you need God's help to receive His word. I know even after being saved that I have had problems with doctrines like these. I wrestled with them fervently in my head for seasons. I thought and thought and though that helped some I in the end had to lean into God for grace. God has shown me grace and taught me things though hard are true and right and love uncompromised in the beauty of His holiness.
Jdl,
I'm sure many genuine Christians have struggles about the idea of eternal punishment. I wouldn't necessarily discount your salvation because of this. Do you have a pastor you can talk to?
With care in Christ...
Greetings anonymity
You wrote:It is not as if everyone gets the same amount of judgment. I know that all who are not with Christ will go to the lake of fire for eternity, but there will be different levels of punishment therein. So Stalin, Hitler, and others will be judged much worse then others.
__________
Could you share with me scripture reference where you are seeing this that has led you to this understanding that there is different levels of hell?
God Bless
mj
Jdl,
You are right to be afraid of hell. It is a place of terror and pain; of darkness and damnation; and hell is eternal.
But why should this fear keep you from seeking God? The scarier hell is, the more you would want to avoid it and turn to God, right? I would think it would be an encouragement rather than a hindrance, although one does not become saved because they are afraid of hell. A person becomes saved because they love the Lord Jesus with a life-changing, self-sacrificing type of love.
Can you explain more clearly why the idea of hell keeps you away from God?
JDL, It shouldn't really be a concern. The scriptures tells us not to fear hell but rather fear God.
There is no doubt in my mind that your being tormented and it's up to those on here who are spiritual to pray for you and to cast down every imagination that highly exalts itself against the knowledge of God. And that knowledge of God is that the gospel of Jesus Christ has been freely given to you by faith.
Quit this doubting and saying lies that God is unable to save you, when in fact He can save to the uttermost.
You should get to a spirit filled Church in your community and get some good solid teaching on faith and justification.
Yes, I have struggled with this idea about going to hell, but truly is a lie from the devil. He was constantly badgering about my salvation and that I deserved hell. One day when he was assaulting me I simply spoke back to him and told him that he was right. "I did deserve hell BUT the blood of Jesus Christ has saved me from going there". That ended the abuse. But you see, you have to come to the place that your fed up with the lies that devil is throwing at you.
The scriptures are true when it says, "Resist the devil and he will flee from you". He can't stand anyone who is trusting Jesus by faith and believing what He said. He runs from that. So you need to stand firm and tell that defeated enemy that "he has lost the battle, Christ is victor". And stand on that until he flees, and you'll know when he is gone. But he'll be back with different ammunition but at least he won't be able to touch in that area any more.
None of us can take you by the hand and do it for you, you have to speak up for yourself and claim the victory for which Christ died.
It's really up to you. However, we will pray for you that your faith fail not. In Jesus name.
P.S. are you listening to any of the sermons that have been sent your way? If not, why not? Listen to the sermons on this website, and get that word in your spirit, you will not be able to stand up to the wiles of the devil without knowing the word of God. It's vital and imperative that you digest the word of God and listen to godly sermons.
Yes there is a punishment of the wicked,and it will be horrific.If one is in Christ,he is a creation,and if we stumble we can repent and ask God to forgive us.
However perfect love casts out all fear,and fear has a torment,read the word,spend quality time with The Lord,ask the Holy Spirit to empower you.
The Lord keeps those in perfect whose mind is stayed upon him.
Grow strong in The Lord,and the power in of His might.
I read into some writings of annihilationism, and it ended up leaving me depressed.
If there is no hell, God cannot be God. Annihilationism makes a mockery of the holiness and justice of God.
God is holy, therefore He will do what is just towards sinners who reject Christ.
Christ has made the payment, thus anyone who rejects Christ, has no one to blame but himself.
I once briefly struggled with the idea of hell. But then I believe God caused me to see, as absolutely miserable as it will be for billions of people to spend eternity literally burning in fire and in torment, as bad as all of that is, it is nothing compared to the sufferings of Jesus Christ on the cross. The King of kings and Lord of lords; the Alpha and the Omega; the Beginning and the End; the Creator of all things seen and unseen; He who was born of a virgin and lived a perfect and sinless life, this man, Jesus Christ, died the death of a criminal, and suffered the wrath of God meant for us on the Cross.
Hell is a pretty terrifying thought when one truly thinks about it. But, I believe there is nothing more terrifying to think of than the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. In all eternity, as bad as hell will be, there will be nothing that was ever as bad as what Jesus Christ went through for you and for me on that cross.
I too am struggling right now, not so much whether I'm going to hell or not, but rather sad and upset not knowing if my parents are saved. They say they are, but they don't live like it. I just can't imagine spending an eternity in Heaven knowing the parents I know and love are spending eternity in Hell.
I try to talk to them about things. Mom wishes to cleave to her idea of Catholicism, Dad wishes to go along with Mom's beliefs. It still ends up in arguments, but not explosive. If I see it starting to heat up, I don't say anything.
I don't know what to do, because these thoughts are also plaguing my relationship (whether I am already saved or am working on that salvation).
hi, the place called hell never enters my daily thoughts...sin very rarely enters them either ... i look unto Jesus who is the author and finisher of my faith ... whatsoever things that are holy etc. think on these things...rejoice evermore for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you...if you have believed into[eos] Jesus and have released the lordship of your life to him as a living sacrifice than you are hid with Christ in God and need not worry but have faith that He who began a work in you shall complete it... a man asked to be licensed as a river pilot here in louisiana and was asked if he knew where all the problems,which are many , are in the river... he said of course i dont know of all the problems in the Mississippi. but i do know where the channel is and how to keep the ship safely therein.JESUS is the route[way truth life]dont look at all the stuff that really doesnt effect you but unto Jesus.jimp
jmooney6 wrote:
I too am struggling right now, not so much whether I'm going to hell or not, but rather sad and upset not knowing if my parents are saved. They say they are, but they don't live like it. I just can't imagine spending an eternity in Heaven knowing the parents I know and love are spending eternity in Hell.I try to talk to them about things. Mom wishes to cleave to her idea of Catholicism, Dad wishes to go along with Mom's beliefs. It still ends up in arguments, but not explosive. If I see it starting to heat up, I don't say anything.
I don't know what to do, because these thoughts are also plaguing my relationship (whether I am already saved or am working on that salvation).
Dear Jim,
Be patient and don't rush things. At this point, the more you push, the more they will dig in their heels and push back, and things will become more difficult than before. I know because I too come from a Catholic family.
It will be better for you to just work out your own walk with Christ before them each day. Enjoy your life in Jesus - savor the joy, the peace and most important, grow in the knowledge of His word. It is knowledge of the Word that will bring you to maturity in Christ. The more they see Jesus in you, the more they will thirst for Him, and their resistance will slowly crumble. Even as you avoid sharing directly with them to keep the peace, pray for them because God can win them through others also. And always show your parents the love and respect that is due them as commanded by God.
God loves them as much as he loves you, and He will try to win them over even if you were not in the picture. But your presence as a living temple of Christ before them will play a huge role in their salvation. The best thing you can do for their salvation is to be a shining example of what a true Christian is, and the love of Christ which will flow through you into them will bear fruit.
I'll be praying for your growth and their salvation.
Philippians 2:12, 13
Ver. 12. With fear and trembling. That is, be equally upon your guard against presumption and despair. St. Paul is anxious to inspire a just confidence in Jesus Christ, but he is not less solicitous to root out all self-confidence arising from our supposed merits or excellence.
Ver. 13. It is God who worketh in you both to will and to accomplish. We can neither have a will, nor begin, nor fulfil any thing of ourselves, in order to a reward in heaven. (Witham) --- Our free-will is not taken away, or we should not be commanded to work; but it is added, with fear and trembling, says St. Augustine, that we might not be proud of our good works. (De grat. et de lib. ab. chap. ix.)
by jmooney6 on 2009/11/10 21:19:13 I too am struggling right now, not so much whether I'm going to hell or not, but rather sad and upset not knowing if my parents are saved. They say they are, but they don't live like it. I just can't imagine spending an eternity in Heaven knowing the parents I know and love are spending eternity in Hell. I try to talk to them about things. Mom wishes to cleave to her idea of Catholicism, Dad wishes to go along with Mom's beliefs. It still ends up in arguments, but not explosive. If I see it starting to heat up, I don't say anything. I don't know what to do, because these thoughts are also plaguing my relationship (whether I am already saved or am working on that salvation).
Jim,
I suggest you really ask your Mom in sincerity why she believes what she does. Then listen.
If your parents aren't living a holy life, they cannot properly be called Catholic.
I encourage you to get out a Catholic catechism and show them where the Catholic church has always condemned their sinful lifestyle.
They probably know the only true Church is the Catholic Church. But they may be cafeteria Catholics...picking and choosing which doctrines to believe. This is unacceptable and definitely NOT Catholic Christianity.
BTW...as to being "saved." Only those who endure to the end are ultimately "saved." Yes, it is possible to gain the state of saving grace and to lose it. So focus on your and their final state.
God bless you.
Sorry I do not mean to add posts here as it is to others and not the original poster.
MJ,
Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Here you can see that God judges according to responsibility at different levels.
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Treasuring up denotes that you can add to your judgment. The most clear word here is that He renders according to His deeds or as much as His sins deserve.
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
Here you can see that some sins are greater then others.
Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Rev 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
This indicates that God usually gives what is deserved since giving her double is a special case. The fact that she fills a cup would also show measurement and levels of addition unto a corresponding judgment.
I could probably think of more. Like when Jesus said woe to you Chorazin for if the mighty works which had been done in you had been done in Sodom they would have repented. Indicating that Chorazin will receive a greater judgment then Sodom because of their accountability level by saying woe and comparing them. I think though that generally it is just the nature of God to be just and part of being just would be to give out equal punishments to the sin committed. If Stalin were not more greatly judged that would be outrageous. If a man in a dark land with no full witness of the Gospel who took care of his family and things like that though for sure was a sinner like all men before Christ were judged equally with Hitler that would be outrageous. So, I think we can be glad to say that God does not put full wrath for eternity on every single human being though of course any place outside of Christ in any level of hell for eternity is a great depth of woe.
I struggle with the fear of hell everyday since first I read my Bible when I was 13. I'm now just about 20 and still fear hell and unsure if I'll ever be saved. As the years go on, it gets worse.
I could go to sleep tonight and not wake up tomorrow and I don't know what would happen. It's really scary at times. I wonder how I'm going to die and what is going to happen.
My mind is weighed down with these thoughts. I've questioned in an "eternal" hell. I used to be a firm believer in the eternity of hell. I'm still a believer in that but It's really hard to swallow nowadays especially when someone dies that you know.
If God is God, He could save everyone. I don't see how leaving a person in hell forever would be better.
God is just but isn't there some other way? Perhaps we read scripture wrong. Perhaps when God killed people in this world, like in the Old Testament when He opens the ground and consumes thousands, that is their punishment. I know this sounds like univeralism but It's bad enough that we must go through death. Ontop of that, to spend eternity in hell is unbearable. I have to sigh everyday because I fear that is my plight. It's very hard to live. Hard to just breath a calm breathe. Thinking that God is waiting for my time to send me to hell. Or He's preparing a nice hell for me. I don't get it.
I hear people say that such and such people are in hell but they just don't know what their saying.
Brother Leo,
You have always lovingly and tenderly guided me in my struggles, and I am truly grateful. After posting yesterday, I was overcome with such a grief I could barely kneel let alone refrain from weeping. I kept praying for my parents until I felt a sense of relief. I woke up and still felt this sense of burden on my heart. Your advice is really fantastic! Just concentrate on my own walk and be a living example, something for my parents to strive for. Of course, this is why I back out of any arguments that come up, so that I don't disrespect these people I care deeply for.
Brother Haydock, thank you as well for answering my post. I did ask before what or why Mom believed what she did, and she said it was due to her mother being Catholic, her mother's parents, etc. (A 'generations' explanation if you will.) My father, on the other hand, was raised another denomination but fell away from it in his sailor days. He became Catholic so that I would be raised under one religion and not two separate denominations. Cafeteria Catholics aptly describes my parents, so there may be hope yet. But everytime Mom brings up something and I say "I don't believe in that" (usually St. Worship and prayer cards), I feel like I'm slapping her in the face and disrespecting her feelings.
That being said, if one gains the state of saving grace but loses it, is it possible for that person to once-again cleave to Jesus for salvation, or is that person doomed for Hell? I started my Christian walk a couple months ago in September, and I recently backslid and am afraid I could be headed somewhere I don't want to go. The backslide is my responsibility, but how do I fix things? (Sometimes I just wish I was more mature in the faith so I was certain about things!)
There are many things that weigh me down on a daily basis, and I thank God for all of you and your prayers. They mean a lot to me. May God bless you all! (And you too brother JDL for having patience with me.)
Paulmcg and jdl,
I read these comments, hopefully with sensitivity, but cannot help but be stirred and grieved at the same time. Jesus, as you know, spoke about hell more than anyone and there is no doubt that one of the reasons He came was because He knew the eternal tragedy of it, and yet the utter neccessity also, and was quite willing to pay the penalty to keep us out of hell. That verse that always comforts my heart regarding the love of God and the preposteriousness of men going to hell by their own choices is: Matthew 25:41 (NKJV) "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:..."
It was "prepared" for the arch rebel, and it is the eternal place of quarantine for rebellion.
I recently preached a message on the horror of the fact that hell is [b]chosen[url=Matthew 25:41 (NKJV) ] here
I pray that you will read and be helped by this message. God is still the God of the greatest love, mercy, hope, help. But to forget that He must be a just judge is the curse of our day.
Clint
I remember when I was filled with the Holy Spirit many years ago, my perception of receiving was that everything would be an overcoming life living above sin type of life. And certainly that is the way it should be, however, after about 4 to 5 months I fell into the same sin that I thought was gone out of my life. It devastated my understanding of the life in Christ that I fell into a depression and I didn't care if lived or died. I prayed every night that God would take my life while I slept I simply did not want to live any more having thought that God didn't want anything to do with me therefore the only course left was death.I could go to sleep tonight and not wake up tomorrow and I don't know what would happen. It's really scary at times. I wonder how I'm going to die and what is going to happen.
That went on for about 2 weeks. One day I got out of bed and went down to the kitchen. We live in a house where the kitchen is the going concern and there were always people going through that kitchen, that day no one was around. I remember hearing the radio being on and the Kingston Trio singing, "Where have all the flowers gone". And I broke, the flood gates opened and I started to weep uncontrollably. I kept asking myself, "Why am I crying?". I have never wept like that before or since, but I knew why. It was the Holy Spirit in me using my body to weep through. He was being grieved that I was choosing death over the life that God had given me. He didn't want me to die, He wanted me to live even though I had fallen short of the glory of God.
I forget what the outcome of that was, but things turned around rather quickly and I was thrust into a Church that spoke much about faith, justification and sanctification and the power of God. Oh, I soaked up the word of God.
It's imperative that we know the word of God. We should never be left alone to form our own ideas about the word of God.
We should not "believe in hell", we should believe in the God who created it for those who are disobedient and choose to go contrary to what they know is truth. And since we are lovers of God we have nothing to fear, to dwell on this subject of fearing hell is absolutely unfruitful, no edification and does not bring about true repentance. "It's the goodness of God that leadeth men unto repentance", not the fear of hell.
jdl i want to give you some encouragement because i know what your going through. My friend robert who i have said is like a 24/7 christian and loves the Lord more than anyone i have ever seen, he is so filled with the holy spirit. But before he was saved he had believed Christ was the son of God he came to that point of belief and he wanted to be saved, he tried to repent and believe and still he was just dead, no change nothing. This went on for months and one night he just wanted to end his life because he was so miserable as it was and the Lord wasn't saving him, he went to a bridge to jump off it but he decided to not do it by the grace of God. It was satan he told me trying to kill him before he got saved. But anyways finally some time after he repented again and i mean confessing all of his sins but he said it was different this time it was a real repentance before he said he just knew it was not real repentance but thi time it was real work of the holy spirit causing true repentance and true belief o saving faith and he finally was saved. You know i know many people will say if you believe the promises of God and go by what it says, God is not a liar and you will be saved, and i completely agree with that and i exhort you to just believe the word of God as if he is no man and would lie but it is also possible the Lord is still working in you to bring true salvation or your going through a trial as a christian, i usually lean toward that if your doubting and have no clue if your saved and the spirit aint bearing witness their can be no assurance but i could be wrong but i know many people on here will be nice and kind but you ask any true believer and they know so, we should pray for you but spend hours and hours to cry out to God until he answers, even cry and scream to be saved.
Dear Paulmcg1 (and Jdl),
If God is God, He could save everyone. I don't see how leaving a person in hell forever would be better.
It is wrong for you to think that God is so cruel as to willfully leave anyone in hell. This is simply not the case. It is actually God's declared will that ALL men be saved. In fact it was because of His love for men that He willingly gave us His Son to redeem us from our sins and provide a way to return to Him:
[i]1Ti 2:3-6 This is good, and pleases [b]God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth[b]Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men
But God is a holy and a just God. If there is something God cannot change, it is His character --His holiness and His justice. Because God is holy, sin cannot stand before Him. It is the same way that darkness cannot exist side-by-side with light. Where there is light, there can be no darkness; and where there is darkness, there is no light.
Because God is just, all sin must be paid for. That is why Jesus died to pay for all our sins once and for all. But that redemption bought with the blood of Jesus must be accepted through faith. One cannot accept something that he does not believe in. Without faith there can be no redemption. Without redemption, one must pay for his own sins in hell.
God, by his grace, has provided the way for all men to return to Him, so if anyone should go to hell, it is because they chose not to return to God. It is not God's fault, but man's.
[i]Tit 2:11-14 [b]For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men[b]our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness
If the idea of hell makes you angry because of the eternal torment it signifies, then be angry at sin and at sinful man -- never be angry at God who has done so much to keep us with Him, and away from hell.
Cafeteria Catholics aptly describes my parents, so there may be hope yet.
I want you to consider the possibility that you yourself do not yet understand the Catholic faith. If all you have to go on is how your mom lives, my guess is that you have not properly been introduced to what Catholic Christianity has believed and confessed for almost two thousand years.
But everytime Mom brings up something and I say "I don't believe in that" (usually St. Worship and prayer cards), I feel like I'm slapping her in the face and disrespecting her feelings.
Yeah, see this is what I mean. Catholics do not worship saints. Many prot's accuse them of this. But it is patently false. You're not going to get very far in telling someone that they believe something they do not in fact believe.
Catholics believe that when Christians die in the state of grace, they are not separated from Christ. They are in fact more united with Him due to their perfection in holiness and love. We are connected with those saints who have gone before THROUGH the body of Christ. The word "pray" simply means "ask" or "to make a request". The book of James says the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. And those in heaven definitely do pray for us as we are told in the book of Revelation. They are the spirits of just men made perfect. We down here on the other hand are still being perfected. So please consider that they are not worshipping someone by asking for their intercession with Christ. This does not hurt Christ's mediation as high priest for us since it is Christ that the saints are interceding with on our behalf. It is not very different than asking a Christian friend to pray for you. Why do you even do that? I mean...can't you just pray straight to Jesus? See what I mean. The Prot argument breaks down under scrutiny.
That being said, if one gains the state of saving grace but loses it, is it possible for that person to once-again cleave to Jesus for salvation, or is that person doomed for Hell?
For a Protestant this is harder than for a Catholic. A Catholic has the benefit of a priest who in the line of the apostles through the laying on of hands. Jesus breathed on His apostles and gave them the power to forgive and retain sins. (Jn. 20:22, 23)
So a Catholic who has true contrition for their sins may validly be received back into the saving body of Christ after having committed a mortal sin. For a Protestant, they may achieve this through perfect contrition...sorrow not only for having merited hell, BUT ALSO for having offended God whom they should love above all things. This is not the normative way of receiving absolution of mortal/deadly sin. It is extraordinary. We should always seek to use the means God has provided for us and not tempt the Lord our God.
I started my Christian walk a couple months ago in September, and I recently backslid and am afraid I could be headed somewhere I don't want to go. The backslide is my responsibility, but how do I fix things?
This was my story as a Protestant as well. To answer plainly, you need all of the graces available to you in the Church Jesus founded. Yes the backslide is your responsibility. But great assurance is to be found in the Catholic church.
(Sometimes I just wish I was more mature in the faith so I was certain about things!)
I was a Protestant pastor and considered "mature" in the faith. But yet due to my own human weakness and the weakness of the principle of Sola Scriptura or Bible Alone figuring out doctrine was left up to my own ability to interpret Scripture and hear the voice of the Holy Spirit.
Some of these guys on SI will tell you they are certain about what they believe. But most of them disagree with each other on a wide range of issues.
The truth is that if you remain Protestant you probably can't count on maturing into a place of assurance about anything.
Protestantism is fatally flawed. It is the new kid on the block. Many of their doctrines are new and strange.
I encourage you to look into the ancient church.
You can PM me for any specific questions.
God bless you on your journey.
Dear haydock,
The truth is that if you remain Protestant you probably can't count on maturing into a place of assurance about anything. Protestantism is fatally flawed. It is the new kid on the block. Many of their doctrines are new and strange. I encourage you to look into the ancient church.
As a former Catholic, I would challenge you on this. But this thread is not the place for such a discussion. If you believe strongly in what you shared here, please start a new thread on what you call the "ancient church" and I will discuss with you there.
In a nutshell, I disagree with you. The Catholic Church is nothing more than a pretender to true Christianity. It was founded by the Roman Empire to subvert the spread of the gospel, and not by the apostles. And even today, its doctrines and practices run contrary to the teachings of God in scripture, and it continues to lead men into rebellion against God.
Please start a new thread under "Scripture and Doctrines" - we can discuss there.
greetings jmooney6
I don't want to get side track from Jdl post to much but I did want to encourage you jmooney6. My own mother to is lost and deceived in the false and pagan religion that is the Roman Catholic Church. She will not hear the truth and like you said of your mom, my mom also prays to saints and to mary. This is idol worship and nothing less. I know how difficult this is to know the truth of who Jesus is and want to share it with those you care about most only to have them reject it. Many are lost in the RCC and in need of prayer. I will be praying for you and your mom.
God Bless
maryjane
Amen, I have been there and actually have done that. And God cannot be charged with folly.It is wrong for you to think that God is so cruel as to willfully leave anyone in hell.
Satan your a liar!
As a former Catholic, I would challenge you on this. But this thread is not the place for such a discussion.
You are right. This thread is not the place for debating. And to be honest, while I would welcome the debate, I would only want to do so with you if you agreed to stay on topic and not throw ten issues at once. I've debated others who were not charitable and had not interest in finding truth. As soon as I soundly refuted one of their claims they dropped the issue and moved to something new without giving rebuttal.
Besides, theology is a divine science. It is not something to be entered into flippantly to "prove someone wrong." It is something to be entered into prayerfully and in the fear of God.
I could counter your statements here, but I do not want to be hypocritical. I just want to help this dear soul who is being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine like I was.
My own mother to is lost and deceived in the false and pagan religion that is the Roman Catholic Church. She will not hear the truth and like you said of your mom, my mom also prays to saints and to mary. This is idol worship and nothing less.
Yeah, see this is the kind of unhelpful accusation I was talking about. God love you, maryjane, but I think you know deep down that this is not what is going on.
I can accept that you do not like or agree with it. But to call it "worship" or "idolatry" is simply ridiculous.
jmooney6,
There is no peace in what these sincere people write to you. I used to believe like them. It is the path of doubt and confusion. It is not the wisdom from above. It is relativistic, self-direction based upon an individual self-reliance on one's personal ability to ascertain truth apart from all others.
You're only gonna find your peace in the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church that Jesus founded and is still going strong today.
Grace to you.
jdl, you started this thread.
Do you have a response?
haydock
I will not respond to you any further in this thread. I do not want to take it further off topic. There are many wonderful, Biblical teachings here on SI. I pray that your time here might be in seeking Jesus. He alone saves us.
Jdl I wanted to say that I am sorry for getting off topic I hope you will forgive me. I have been and will continue to pray for you.
God Bless
maryjane
You're only gonna find your peace in the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church that Jesus founded
And behold the mantra of every single Christian cult. Only substitute RCC in this case with Watchtower, Church of LDS, et cetera. All purport to be the only true church which can grant salvation - but only if you stay within their organization and continue to fulfill the obligatory sacraments and other works.
There is no peace in what these sincere people write to you. I used to believe like them. It is the path of doubt and confusion.
This is almost word-for-word what the Jehovah Witnesses tell those still adhering to fundamental evangelicalism. Many were once mainline Baptists, Presbyterians, etc. Rome's refuation of Protestant denominationalism is the same argument the Russellites and Mormons use to legitimize their cults as the true church founded by Jesus Christ. Anytime you encounter a person who claims their pyramidal organization is the exclusive cornerstone of the church of God (regardless of how long they've been around, or by whom they ostensibly have been given authority to make such a claim), you need to understand you are dealing with a cultistic entity.
(edit) I too do not want to divert this thread's original topic, but I thought it prudent to issue the abovementioned warning.
Peace will never be found in a Church, it's found in Jesus Christ. And if this Holy Catholic Church in the universal sense of the word your speaking of, I would say AMEN. However, if your speaking of the religion that is currently active headed by the Pope, then you've crossed waters that we here are simply not apart of, not interested in being apart and never shall be. I am surprised though of the lack of sensitivity that you have chosen this thread to bring this up, it could have been started in another thread.You're only gonna find your peace in the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church that Jesus founded and is still going strong today.
I believe this Catholic individual on here is "orthodox" whom was banned a few weeks ago. Perhaps I am wrong. But "orthodox" if you recall, was a former Protestant/assemblies of God minister, and came on here pushing his Roman Catholicism. Seems odd that within a few weeks time we'd have two of the same type of characters, making the same type of arguments.
Just giving a heads up.
This is almost word-for-word what the Jehovah Witnesses tell those still adhering to fundamental evangelicalism. Many were once mainline Baptists, Presbyterians, etc. Rome's refuation of Protestant denominationalism is the same argument the Russellites and Mormons use to legitimize their cults as the true church founded by Jesus Christ.
Just how many churches do you think Jesus founded?
Actually the JW's are a Protestant sect just like you. Yes, they deny the Trinity and you don't. But you are both Sola Scriptura believers.
Just why do you not have many "sermons" on this website older than 500 years?
It is because you are a new and strange sect. Call it a cult if you wish. Catholic Christianity is historical Christianity. That is irrefutable.
Now let's all be at peace. We cannot decapitate Christ from His body.
Jim, Jesus is the only one who can save you. The means that He ordained for you to enter into union with Him is through His body the Church. That church is alive and thriving today. It has wheat. It has tares. It looks like He said it would look like. But it is staring all of us in the face.
Many blessings to you
A Prayer to obtain Final Perseverance
Eternal Father, I humbly adore Thee, and thank Thee for having created me, and for having redeemed me through Jesus Christ. I thank Thee most sincerely for having made me a Christian, by giving me the true faith, and by adopting me as Thy son, in the sacrament of baptism. I thank Thee for having, after the numberless sins I had committed, waited for my repentance, and for having pardoned (as I humbly hope) all the offenses which I have offered to Thee, and for which I am now sincerely sorry, because they have been displeasing to Thee, who art infinite goodness. I thank Thee for having preserved me from so many relapses, of which I would have been guilty if Thou hadst not protected me. But my enemies still continue, and will continue till death, to combat against me, and to endeavor to make me their slave. If Thou dost not constantly guard and help me with thy aid, I, a miserable creature, shall return to sin, and shall certainly lose Thy grace. I beseech Thee, then, for the love of Jesus Christ, to grant me holy perseverance unto death. Jesus, Thy Son, has promised that Thou wilt grant whatsoever we ask in his name. Through the merits, then, of Jesus Christ, I beg, for myself and for all the just, the grace never again to be separated from Thy love, but to love Thee forever, in time and eternity.
Mary, Mother of God, pray to Jesus for me.
How did this thread get hijacked by a Roman Catholic? :-(
It is because you are a new and strange sect. Call it a cult if you wish. Catholic Christianity is historical Christianity. That is irrefutable.
I'm not impressed. It's the same reverse rhetoric all the cults muster: they either appeal to how long they've been around and use this as an authenticity gauge, or they resort to the banal "look how many denominations you have" ace. When neither of these work, the last resort is to pull out the big gun of "irrefutability", which, in the RCC's case is the fabled apostolic succession bloodline of Peter.
I don't have time to repudiate the error of Roman Catholicism; because, frankly, I don't want to turn this into a feeding frenzy. This is a Christian forum, and we are not sympathetic to cult-mentalities or any person coming here with a proselytizing agenda - be it theological or otherwise. If such behaviour is not allowed even by members within our own ranks, it is certainly not permissible for the RC's, JW's LDS's or any other cult personality to exercise free reign.
With that, I ask you to please examine your motives for entering this forum. If you need clarification of what is and isn't allowed, contact me privately.
Thank you.
In the Name our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.
1. Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said repent, willed that the whole life of believers should be repentance.
2. This word cannot be understood to mean sacramental penance, i.e., confession and satisfaction, which is administered by the priests.
3. Yet it means not inward repentance only; nay, there is no inward repentance which does not outwardly work divers mortifications of the flesh.
4. The penalty [of sin], therefore, continues so long as hatred of self continues; for this is the true inward repentance, and continues until our entrance into the kingdom of heaven.
5. The pope does not intend to remit, and cannot remit any penalties other than those which he has imposed either by his own authority or by that of the Canons.
6. The pope cannot remit any guilt, except by declaring that it has been remitted by God and by assenting to God's remission; though, to be sure, he may grant remission in cases reserved to his judgment. If his right to grant remission in such cases were despised, the guilt would remain entirely unforgiven.
7. God remits guilt to no one whom He does not, at the same time, humble in all things and bring into subjection to His vicar, the priest.
8. The penitential canons are imposed only on the living, and, according to them, nothing should be imposed on the dying.
9. Therefore the Holy Spirit in the pope is kind to us, because in his decrees he always makes exception of the article of death and of necessity.
10. Ignorant and wicked are the doings of those priests who, in the case of the dying, reserve canonical penances for purgatory.
11. This changing of the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory is quite evidently one of the tares that were sown while the bishops slept.
12. In former times the canonical penalties were imposed not after, but before absolution, as tests of true contrition.
13. The dying are freed by death from all penalties; they are already dead to canonical rules, and have a right to be released from them.
14. The imperfect health [of soul], that is to say, the imperfect love, of the dying brings with it, of necessity, great fear; and the smaller the love, the greater is the fear.
15. This fear and horror is sufficient of itself alone (to say nothing of other things) to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the horror of despair.
16. Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ as do despair, almost-despair, and the assurance of safety.
17. With souls in purgatory it seems necessary that horror should grow less and love increase.
18. It seems unproved, either by reason or Scripture, that they are outside the state of merit, that is to say, of increasing love.
19. Again, it seems unproved that they, or at least that all of them, are certain or assured of their own blessedness, though we may be quite certain of it.
20. Therefore by "full remission of all penalties" the pope means not actually "of all," but only of those imposed by himself.
21. Therefore those preachers of indulgences are in error, who say that by the pope's indulgences a man is freed from every penalty, and saved;
22. Whereas he remits to souls in purgatory no penalty which, according to the canons, they would have had to pay in this life.
23. If it is at all possible to grant to any one the remission of all penalties whatsoever, it is certain that this remission can be granted only to the most perfect, that is, to the very fewest.
24. It must needs be, therefore, that the greater part of the people are deceived by that indiscriminate and highsounding promise of release from penalty.
25. The power which the pope has, in a general way, over purgatory, is just like the power which any bishop or curate has, in a special way, within his own diocese or parish.
26. The pope does well when he grants remission to souls [in purgatory], not by the power of the keys (which he does not possess), but by way of intercession.
27. They preach man who say that so soon as the penny jingles into the money-box, the soul flies out [of purgatory].
28. It is certain that when the penny jingles into the money-box, gain and avarice can be increased, but the result of the intercession of the Church is in the power of God alone.
29. Who knows whether all the souls in purgatory wish to be bought out of it, as in the legend of Sts. Severinus and Paschal.
30. No one is sure that his own contrition is sincere; much less that he has attained full remission.
31. Rare as is the man that is truly penitent, so rare is also the man who truly buys indulgences, i.e., such men are most rare.
32. They will be condemned eternally, together with their teachers, who believe themselves sure of their salvation because they have letters of pardon.
33. Men must be on their guard against those who say that the pope's pardons are that inestimable gift of God by which man is reconciled to Him;
34. For these "graces of pardon" concern only the penalties of sacramental satisfaction, and these are appointed by man.
35. They preach no Christian doctrine who teach that contrition is not necessary in those who intend to buy souls out of purgatory or to buy confessionalia.
36. Every truly repentant Christian has a right to full remission of penalty and guilt, even without letters of pardon.
37. Every true Christian, whether living or dead, has part in all the blessings of Christ and the Church; and this is granted him by God, even without letters of pardon.
38. Nevertheless, the remission and participation [in the blessings of the Church] which are granted by the pope are in no way to be despised, for they are, as I have said, the declaration of divine remission.
39. It is most difficult, even for the very keenest theologians, at one and the same time to commend to the people the abundance of pardons and [the need of] true contrition.
40. True contrition seeks and loves penalties, but liberal pardons only relax penalties and cause them to be hated, or at least, furnish an occasion [for hating them].
41. Apostolic pardons are to be preached with caution, lest the people may falsely think them preferable to other good works of love.
42. Christians are to be taught that the pope does not intend the buying of pardons to be compared in any way to works of mercy.
43. Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to the needy does a better work than buying pardons;
44. Because love grows by works of love, and man becomes better; but by pardons man does not grow better, only more free from penalty.
45. 45. Christians are to be taught that he who sees a man in need, and passes him by, and gives [his money] for pardons, purchases not the indulgences of the pope, but the indignation of God.
46. Christians are to be taught that unless they have more than they need, they are bound to keep back what is necessary for their own families, and by no means to squander it on pardons.
47. Christians are to be taught that the buying of pardons is a matter of free will, and not of commandment.
48. Christians are to be taught that the pope, in granting pardons, needs, and therefore desires, their devout prayer for him more than the money they bring.
49. Christians are to be taught that the pope's pardons are useful, if they do not put their trust in them; but altogether harmful, if through them they lose their fear of God.
50. Christians are to be taught that if the pope knew the exactions of the pardon-preachers, he would rather that St. Peter's church should go to ashes, than that it should be built up with the skin, flesh and bones of his sheep.
51. Christians are to be taught that it would be the pope's wish, as it is his duty, to give of his own money to very many of those from whom certain hawkers of pardons cajole money, even though the church of St. Peter might have to be sold.
52. The assurance of salvation by letters of pardon is vain, even though the commissary, nay, even though the pope himself, were to stake his soul upon it.
53. They are enemies of Christ and of the pope, who bid the Word of God be altogether silent in some Churches, in order that pardons may be preached in others.
54. Injury is done the Word of God when, in the same sermon, an equal or a longer time is spent on pardons than on this Word.
55. It must be the intention of the pope that if pardons, which are a very small thing, are celebrated with one bell, with single processions and ceremonies, then the Gospel, which is the very greatest thing, should be preached with a hundred bells, a hundred processions, a hundred ceremonies.
56. The "treasures of the Church," out of which the pope. grants indulgences, are not sufficiently named or known among the people of Christ.
57. That they are not temporal treasures is certainly evident, for many of the vendors do not pour out such treasures so easily, but only gather them.
58. Nor are they the merits of Christ and the Saints, for even without the pope, these always work grace for the inner man, and the cross, death, and hell for the outward man.
59. St. Lawrence said that the treasures of the Church were the Church's poor, but he spoke according to the usage of the word in his own time.
60. Without rashness we say that the keys of the Church, given by Christ's merit, are that treasure;
61. For it is clear that for the remission of penalties and of reserved cases, the power of the pope is of itself sufficient.
62. The true treasure of the Church is the Most Holy Gospel of the glory and the grace of God.
63. But this treasure is naturally most odious, for it makes the first to be last.
64. On the other hand, the treasure of indulgences is naturally most acceptable, for it makes the last to be first.
65. Therefore the treasures of the Gospel are nets with which they formerly were wont to fish for men of riches.
66. The treasures of the indulgences are nets with which they now fish for the riches of men.
67. The indulgences which the preachers cry as the "greatest graces" are known to be truly such, in so far as they promote gain.
68. Yet they are in truth the very smallest graces compared with the grace of God and the piety of the Cross.
69. Bishops and curates are bound to admit the commissaries of apostolic pardons, with all reverence.
70. But still more are they bound to strain all their eyes and attend with all their ears, lest these men preach their own dreams instead of the commission of the pope.
71. He who speaks against the truth of apostolic pardons, let him be anathema and accursed!
72. But he who guards against the lust and license of the pardon-preachers, let him be blessed!
73. The pope justly thunders against those who, by any art, contrive the injury of the traffic in pardons.
74. But much more does he intend to thunder against those who use the pretext of pardons to contrive the injury of holy love and truth.
75. To think the papal pardons so great that they could absolve a man even if he had committed an impossible sin and violated the Mother of God -- this is madness.
76. We say, on the contrary, that the papal pardons are not able to remove the very least of venial sins, so far as its guilt is concerned.
77. It is said that even St. Peter, if he were now Pope, could not bestow greater graces; this is blasphemy against St. Peter and against the pope.
78. We say, on the contrary, that even the present pope, and any pope at all, has greater graces at his disposal; to wit, the Gospel, powers, gifts of healing, etc., as it is written in I. Corinthians xii.
79. To say that the cross, emblazoned with the papal arms, which is set up [by the preachers of indulgences], is of equal worth with the Cross of Christ, is blasphemy.
80. The bishops, curates and theologians who allow such talk to be spread among the people, will have an account to render.
81. This unbridled preaching of pardons makes it no easy matter, even for learned men, to rescue the reverence due to the pope from slander, or even from the shrewd questionings of the laity.
82. To wit: -- "Why does not the pope empty purgatory, for the sake of holy love and of the dire need of the souls that are there, if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a Church? The former reasons would be most just; the latter is most trivial."
83. Again: -- "Why are mortuary and anniversary masses for the dead continued, and why does he not return or permit the withdrawal of the endowments founded on their behalf, since it is wrong to pray for the redeemed?"
84. Again: -- "What is this new piety of God and the pope, that for money they allow a man who is impious and their enemy to buy out of purgatory the pious soul of a friend of God, and do not rather, because of that pious and beloved soul's own need, free it for pure love's sake?"
85. Again: -- "Why are the penitential canons long since in actual fact and through disuse abrogated and dead, now satisfied by the granting of indulgences, as though they were still alive and in force?"
86. Again: -- "Why does not the pope, whose wealth is to-day greater than the riches of the richest, build just this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of poor believers?"
87. Again: -- "What is it that the pope remits, and what participation does he grant to those who, by perfect contrition, have a right to full remission and participation?"
88. Again: -- "What greater blessing could come to the Church than if the pope were to do a hundred times a day what he now does once, and bestow on every believer these remissions and participations?"
89. "Since the pope, by his pardons, seeks the salvation of souls rather than money, why does he suspend the indulgences and pardons granted heretofore, since these have equal efficacy?"
90. To repress these arguments and scruples of the laity by force alone, and not to resolve them by giving reasons, is to expose the Church and the pope to the ridicule of their enemies, and to make Christians unhappy.
91. If, therefore, pardons were preached according to the spirit and mind of the pope, all these doubts would be readily resolved; nay, they would not exist.
92. Away, then, with all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Peace, peace," and there is no peace!
93. Blessed be all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Cross, cross," and there is no cross!
94. Christians are to be exhorted that they be diligent in following Christ, their Head, through penalties, deaths, and hell;
95. And thus be confident of entering into heaven rather through many tribulations, than through the assurance of peace.
- Martin Luther
Need I say anymore?
How did this thread get hijacked by a Roman Catholic?
Sorry about that. It's going to end right now.
Brother Paul
7. God remits guilt to no one whom He does not, at the same time, humble in all things and bring into subjection to His vicar, the priest.
So you agree with Luther about this?
61. For it is clear that for the remission of penalties and of reserved cases, the power of the pope is of itself sufficient.
Interesting.
And you agree with him on this too?
64. On the other hand, the treasure of indulgences is naturally most acceptable, for it makes the last to be first.
69. Bishops and curates are bound to admit the commissaries of apostolic pardons, with all reverence. 70. But still more are they bound to strain all their eyes and attend with all their ears, lest these men preach their own dreams instead of the commission of the pope. 71. He who speaks against the truth of apostolic pardons, let him be anathema and accursed!
Would you chime in "let him be anathema and accursed"?
Too bad Luther left the church. The unprecedented excesses of Tetzel were condemned by the council of Trent. The Luther of the 95 theses would most likely have said "Amen" to that council.
But something sinister happens when one separates from Christ and His Church.
As for the accusation of being a cult. It is not surprising that a tiny, new sect would follow the ways of the heresies of church history and make these claims.
The reason you need this discussion to stop is that you don't have a leg to stand on Scripturally, Historically, Logically, or Spiritually.
Since the person who started this thread has ditched it, then why can't everyone else?
I haven't read most of the posts and don't intend to.
But if they have left it alone, why can't you?
Since the person who started this thread has ditched it, then why can't everyone else?
Because I don't think that that person has "ditched" it. I think there is a battle on for a soul in need of hope.
Protestantism is a recipe for despair.
PaulWest wrote:How did this thread get hijacked by a Roman Catholic?
Sorry about that. It's going to end right now.
Brother Paul
Brother Paul, did you intend to lock this thread? It seems it is still open.
Locked.
