Unconverted People allowed in Church?

Should we continue to have Sunday worship services mixed with the unconverted goats within?

Why do we call out for revival, extra-biblical manifestations when we can't even worship God as He ought to be worshiped, due to catering to unsaved believers within the 'church?'

My question is this: Is it biblical to allow unconverted church people within our worship / fellowship?

If it is not biblical, (which I believe it isn't) shouldn't we be more active in witnessing our faith to others in our daily lives, rather than relying on the pastorate to convert unconverted believers who attend every week?

Is the gospel to be spread throughout this world through pastors in buildings?

When are we going to get back to the book of Acts?

Our "Christian" standard is so far below that of the apostles, I do not know what they would say of us, if they were still alive. We know practically nothing of God's holiness, and His righteousness. Perhaps we have head knowledge, but no true relational knowledge of God.

Do we really believe that without holiness no one will see the Lord? What are we doing with our lives? Were we saved to simply struggle with sin and limp into eternal glory? Were not we called to live a victorious life through the empowering of the Holy Spirit, as a radical group of people, making Jesus Christ shown worthy of a life of sacrifice?

What am I doing with my life... What are we as 'Christians' doing with our lives?

IWantAnguish wrote:

Should we continue to have Sunday worship services mixed with the unconverted goats within?

[u][b]Luke 14:7-14 (NKJV) [/b][/u]

[b]Take the Lowly Place[/b]

So He told a parable to those who were invited, when He noted how they chose the best places, saying to them: “When you are invited by anyone to a wedding feast, do not sit down in the best place, lest one more honorable than you be invited by him; and he who invited you and him come and say to you, ‘Give place to this man,’ and then you begin with shame to take the lowest place. But when you are invited, go and sit down in the lowest place, so that when he who invited you comes he may say to you, ‘Friend, go up higher.’ Then you will have glory in the presence of those who sit at the table with you. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” Then He also said to him who invited Him, “When you give a dinner or a supper, do not ask your friends, your brothers, your relatives, nor rich neighbors, lest they also invite you back, and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you; for you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”

[u][b]Luke 5:29-30 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

Then Levi gave Him a great feast in his own house. And there were a great number of tax collectors and others who sat down with them. And their scribes and the Pharisees complained against His disciples, saying, “Why do You eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?”

I am in no way insinuating that we should not preach to the lost...

People always bring up the fact that Jesus went straight to the sinners and tax collectors, and thus justify that we ought to have unconverted believers in our fellowship...

I would submit to you that this ought not be.

Why?

Those sinners in Jesus' time knew they were sinners, and in desperate need of a savior.

These sinners in our churches don't even know they're lost, and they think they're going to heaven...

Thank you for your gracious reply. I pray that I can convey my thoughts on this matter with love and respect.

IWantAnguish wrote:

Those sinners in Jesus' time knew they were sinners, and in desperate need of a savior.

These sinners in our churches don't even know they're lost, and they think they're going to heaven...

Brother, isn't this an assumption on your part? Some places of worship will blast the congregation and preach the "turn or burn" sermons. From what I've seen, these are not the most effective way of reaching unsaved people at churches, because as the old saying goes... "Your preaching to the converted". Most places that preach this loose the unsaved pretty quick I would think, and then you are left with only church membership.

Most of the people that I bring into fellowship at our House Church, and at our place of worship on Sunday, understand that they are missing something...they are lost. They see that we have something that they desire...and it entices them. Sometimes they don't understand the need for a savior yet, but it can be a process for some. In the Lord's timing, He reveals Himself to them.

When they see that your life is not bound by this world, it intrigues them. When Jesus' light shines through the darkness, and they see that your solid in the midst of chaos, they wonder why...

Every minute of the day is a witness to and for the Lord. It doesn't matter if it is in a church, marketplace, baseball game or in a jail cell... Christ is to be preached to the lost.

So to answer your question if we should stand side by side with unsaved sinners in a church setting...

Yes. Not everyone is called to be an evangalist, pastor or a teacher, but we are called to preach Christ amongst the Nations. Some may do this at a street corner, others may do this by inviting them to a church. Others may do this by loving those who are tormenting and torturing them... it really matters not, as long as Christ is preached.

Yes, we should allow sinners in our services, and the true gospel of Jesus Christ should be preached so that the Holy Spirit will have the opportunity to convict them of their sins.

The problem with many churches in this country is that sinners are made to feel confortable in our services and they even leave the service feeling good about themselves.

The true gospel being preached would effect sinners in one of two ways. Either they would recieve the message and being convicted of their sins would be saved, or they would reject it and become so uncomfortable in that atmosphere that they would not want to go back to that place.

Mike

I am simply going by statistics that say that 60-70% of Americans have been 'born again.'

Not an assumption.

And I know for a fact that the great majority of those within that % are going to hell, because Jesus said, Many will say Lord Lord, and that few will find entrance.

My question is this... Is it biblical / possible to function as the True Church while allowing the nominal Christians 'church attendance' week by week?

I would say... Kick em out or get em saved. There is no middle ground.

1 Corinthians 5:1-5

I'm not including those that you speak of, the honest searchers who are willing to bend the knee to the Lordship of Christ.

I'm talking about those who say they are saved, and yet they live as children of the devil.

You will not find any place in scripture, apostles or disciples of Christ, bringing unbelievers to 'church' or group meetings or worship services or fellowship or the communion table in order to get them saved.

Who are we to do the things that those great saints of past did not do?

Are we not to follow the Word of God, and to bring every thought and deed captive to the Word of God?

Should not our weekly fellowship reflect what is found in the Word of God?

Or shall we continue in the traditions of men, because 'it works?' When apparently, it doesn't.

The most godless and disgusting nation on the face of the earth. USA.

IWantAnguish wrote:

I would say... Kick em out or get em saved. There is no middle ground.

Brother. I respect that this is your opinion. If this is how you feel and are feeling lead to this from the Lord, who am I to refute?

But you have quoted that, [i]"You will not find any place in scripture, apostles or disciples of Christ, bringing unbelievers to 'church' or group meetings or worship services or fellowship or the communion table in order to get them saved."[/i]

Nor will you find

I would say... Kick em out or get em saved. There is no middle ground.

You will find warnings on non-belief, but nothing to do with a gathering unless in willful sin.

This really has to do with personal preference. Who are any of us to tell someone attending a church to leave because they may not be as far along in their walk as we are? Is there now a requirement that one HAS to be saved before they can come to a worshop service?

I will tell you this, I would rather be in the midst of a bunch of unsaved sinners then in a "holy huddle" at worship. Again, preference.
:-)

Anguish,

I totally misunderstood what you were asking so I deleted my first answer because I do not want to be associated with this ... this... this...
anti-semitism (sp?) against God's people who YOU declare not to be God's people. Amazing arrogance on your part, if you ask me. On page three, I have some questions for you!

...[i]but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. [/i]
Ac 10:28b

I do not believe that we should be kicking sinners out of the Church. On the other hand, many Christians have gone door to door trying to get sinners to come to church. However, the church is not a building, the church is the Body of Christ, and we are called to be witnesses of the Lord Jesus Christ, ministers of reconcilation. The Church needs to bring the good news to the sinners, wherever they are at. This might be the work place or even the grocery store. We come into contact with sinners every day. If we would begin to believe God for souls, and to open the door for us to witness to sinners, HE would do so. It is time that we take the Word of God outside the four walls of the church building and start being the Church that the Lord has called us to be.

Mike

I agree Mike,
I would say that the body of Christ should not rely exclusivly (or even primarily) on the gathering together of Christians for worship, correction, teaching, and the sacrements, ie "church", for evangelism. I liked what Ray Comfort has said- "a good open air preacher can reach more unsaved people in one day than many churches do in a year". I don't think that we must exclude unbelievers, but if the bible is being faithfully taught, they will either leave on their own or the seeds of the gospel will be watered.

Those sinners in Jesus' time knew they were sinners, and in desperate need of a savior.

Oh you mean like the Pharisees? I don't think they cared about being "saved" if it meant coming to Christ, and they would be the first ones to say, "kick those sinners out, so we can have a pure religion!"

And to answer your other question about there not being any mention in the Bible about "mixing" saints and sinners, how about when Christ spoke of the wheat the tares?

hi, a friend of mine shared his testimony with me and it fits nicely in this area... he was brought to church one week and saw how at the end of the service some women would go to the altar and leave their purses in the pew... next week he came to get him a few purses... he got behind some rich looking ladies and sat down... at the end of the service he was the first at the altar weeping over his lost condition... should we allow sick people in hospitals? the Holy Spirit is able and willing to bring people to Jesus... i go to a church that baptizes 40 to 50 people a week and it is not the only great church in the city.jimp

We would be wise to define prophesy in this particular passage... Translated directly from the Greek, prophesy would mean 'to speak before.'

Basically, what a preacher does every Sunday. He stands up and prophesies before men, or, speaks before men.

This is relevant because true prophets will speak forth the truth, with authority from on High... This would bring conviction of sin to the unbeliever, while a fellowship of people speaking in tongues would make unbelievers think of Christians as insane.

Thus you have the false prophets (Benny Hinn, Joel Olsteen, etc.) Men who speak lies before men, not necessarily that they falsely predict the future.

==================

Of course those seeking Christ (yes...I agree there is none that seeks after God... :-P yet, let us set election and free-will aside for the time being) The honest seekers looking for answers to questions about the state of their soul will come to the worship service... Should we cast out those whom the Holy Spirit drawing? By no means.

Should the majority of our 'church' services include the lost nominal 'Christians?' As well as the lost, carnal heathens who clearly have no appetite / desire for God?

Or should we present a Gospel message that is so utterly radical that it would shake them to the core of their being, and shock them into life?

I believe the reason our 'churches' are so filled with the damned is because we do not present the Gospel in such a way for them to clearly accept or clearly reject it. Thus we run around with however many % of goats along with however many % of sheep, and nothing substantial ever gets done in terms of Kingdom service.

You can call me a Pharisee if you want, but I believe a little leaven leavens the whole loaf. If you're comfortable with that... then I would pray for you.

-edit for clarification-

hi, i do not understand brothertoms post... 45yrs of watching the power of God move on the hearts of people so that their lives were changed but not hardened by the religious spirit that surely rules in the hearts of those that continue to eat of that tree of the knowlege of good and evil. God is love and he who abides inGod abides in love ...he who knoweth not love knoweth not God...thousands of people have been truly saved over these years and are walking in the spirit because they were born of the spirit of a living God who loved them enough to send His son to die for such a worm as i.jimp

I would be amazed if you could fit your point of view with Galatians 5:7-11 and 1 Corinthians 5:3-13.

There is no contradiction in Scripture.

It would be interesting to note that one cannot easily distinguish wheat from tares until the time of harvest.

I would submit to you that we do not have tares among the wheat in the 'church' rather we have TREES of IDOLATRY growing amidst a few stalks of wheat. It does not take a rocket scientist to identify a tree from a stalk of wheat.

Today's 'tares' look nothing like wheat, smell nothing like wheat, taste nothing like wheat, and yet we call them 'tares.'

They don't even qualify as tares.

Listen... Jesus was clearly stating in those passages for us not to try to distinguish, by nit picking details, over people's seemingly GENUINE CONVERSION.

People that act like true Christians, look like true Christians, adhere to true Christian doctrine, evangelize like true Christians, MAY BE POSSIBLY LOST.

Christ is saying, do not try to nitpick true converts from false converts, who look the same on the outside.

Christ is not saying, do not remove CLEAR false professors from your fellowship. You dig it?

-edit for grammar / Scripture references-

According to your interpretation of Matthew 13:24-30, Paul is going against the clear revelation of God.

Thus Scripture is broken, and God doesn't exist.

IWantAnguish wrote:
-edit-
It would be interesting to note that one cannot easily distinguish wheat from tares until the time of harvest......

Today's 'tares' look nothing like wheat, smell nothing like wheat, taste nothing like wheat, and yet we call them 'tares.'

They don't even qualify as tares.

Listen... Jesus was clearly stating in those passages for us not to try to distinguish...

Were not we called to live a victorious life through the empowering of the Holy Spirit, as a radical group of people, making Jesus Christ shown worthy of a life of sacrifice?

First off, are the tares causing you to not living a victorious life? Is that why you want to get rid of them? How have they hindered you? I submit that the sacrifice we are to make is the sacrifice of giving up [b]our[/b] fleshly desires; NOT sacrificing the tares!!!

Secondly and another train of thought from above, Jesus was quite clear that we are to let the tares and wheat grow together lest if we try we could very possibly pull the wheat out by the roots - killing the wheat; so by our instruction of leaving them alone and letting them grow together, we are [b]trusting Him alone[/b] with the task of dividing the tares and the wheat up.

From reading your posts on this topic, you are having trouble doing that and that is understandable because that is a whole other level of trust (the come up hither kind). But it is clear to me that what you say about tares and what the Bible says about tares are polar opposites so if it's all the same to you I will believe my KJV Bible and my Holy Ghost over your questionable opinion on the matter. I hope you can dig it!
;-)

i do not understand brothertoms post

Apparently, you are too young to remember the things he is talking about. I am 62 YO and I remember well, know full well what he is saying cause I lived through the era he is referring to.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

I am a tad bit confused by your question. Scripture is clear that unconverted persons were or may be in the audience...

But 'unconverted people allowed in church?' My take on this issue is that a body of believers should have membership in which all would agree to what constitutes a Christian walk of life. If any fall into sin, they will be dealt with and if there is no repentance, they will be excommunicated.

I have heard of churches who abandoned membership rolls only to have people come in and wreck that brotherhood.

Is this what you are talking about?

ginnyrose

Tradition of men > Scripture.

American Christianity is flourishing and millions are being swept into the Kingdom.

I hope we can export our beautiful methods to the 3rd world so that they may learn from our ways.

God bless America.

I am thoroughly disgusted with your intent on this thread, I had about three or four responses to you but I’ll just post these questions from God....

Just a few of the questions from Job 38-41
[b]Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me.[/b]

Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? [b]Tell Me, if you have understanding. [/b]
Who determined its measurements? [b]Surely YOU know![/b] Or who stretched the line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Have you commanded the morning since your days began, and caused the dawn to know its place, that it might take hold of the ends of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it?

Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
Have the gates of death been revealed to you?
Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?
Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth? [b]Tell Me, if you know all this.[/b]

Where is the way to the dwelling of light?

Can you set their dominion over the earth?
Can you lift up your voice to the clouds, that an abundance of water may cover you?
Can you send out lightnings, that they may go, and say to you, ‘Here we are!’?
Who has put wisdom in the mind?
Or who has given understanding to the heart?
Who can number the clouds by wisdom?
Or who can pour out the bottles of heaven, when the dust hardens in clumps, and the clods cling together?
Can you hunt the prey for the lion, or satisfy the appetite of the young lions, when they crouch in their dens, or lurk in their lairs to lie in wait?

Would you indeed annul My judgment?
[b]Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?[/b]
Have you an arm like God? Or can you thunder with a voice like His?
Can you draw out Leviathan with a hook, or snare his tongue with a line which you lower?
Can you put a reed through his nose, or pierce his jaw with a hook?
Will he make many supplications to you?
Will he speak softly to you?
Will he make a covenant with you?
Will you take him as a servant forever?
Will you play with him as with a bird, or will you leash him for your maidens?
Will your companions make a banquet of him?
Will they apportion him among the merchants?
Can you fill his skin with harpoons, or his head with fishing spears?

[b]Who then is able to stand against Me?[/b]

[b]Who has preceded Me, that I should pay him?[/b]

Are you equating your opinion / conviction as God's ?

Let us be honest and real.

What would happen if we exported our practice of contemporary 'church' and 'worship' to Afghanistan? Or Iran? Or any Muslim nation?

How long do you think it would survive?

Be honest.

This weak, effeminate, spineless mass of corruption has been white-washed and stamped with the word 'Christianity...' thus it may pass as authentic for the moment in America because there is no persecution.

I would be as bold as to say that Christ was speaking about those of us, even here on this blessed website, as the wheat and the tares, and that we may not know for sure as to who was / is / shall be saved until the judgment seat of Christ.

Puts a whole nother spin on Phil. 2:12

-edit-

I am thoroughly amazed that you have been given the gift of mind reading, and thus are able to ascertain my intent in this thread.

hi, our church has started many churches in that area and are seeing many muslims converted to faith in Jesus...what are you doing in this part of the world?jimp

Jimp, I would love to be able to be a part of a church body that would send missionaries into the most dangerous parts of the world... missionaries who would be tortured and ultimately killed for the sake of the gospel.

Please let me know if you know of any.

Deepthinker / Lysa please interpret 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 for me.

I am extremely curious as to how you would interpret this passage of Scripture in light of Matthew 13:24-30.

You must contradict yourself in order to bring those 2 passages into cohesion according to your interpretation.

IWantAnguish wrote:
I am thoroughly amazed that you have been given the gift of mind reading, and thus are able to ascertain my intent in this thread.

Are you or are you not trying to convince us that it would be best to kick the “nominal believers” out of the church??

I don't want to convince anybody of anything except what is correct according to Scripture.

I am personally trying to find the balance between the previous couple passages of Scripture found within Matthew, 1 Corinthians and Galatians.

If a person obviously is not bearing fruit in their lives, and is obviously lacking the fruit of the Spirit listed in the latter part of Galatians... Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control... should we continue to include them in the fellowship and allow themselves to blend in with the congregation, without confronting them with texts such as examining themselves, and bringing up the apparent sinful nature in their lives... since anybody cannot be walking in the flesh and walking in the Spirit simultaneously.

It is one or the other.

Should we allow those nominal believers the comfort of fellowship without bringing up the apparent lack of desire to conform their own lives to the will of God revealed in the Word of God?

Or should we speak forth the truth of Christ, when He said many will say Lord Lord and go to hell?

My reply to Deepthinker's post...

I do not believe salvation can be lost. But if a person falls into sin, and remains in sin for the rest of their lives unto death, I believe they were never regenerate to begin with, rather they were like the seeds that Christ speaks of, that falls upon shall soil, with a rock beneath.

They flourish for a moment, and yet they fall away, because they never dug deep with the Law of God, and were never completely regenerated by the power of the Holy Spirit.

So... the question is... if a person is obviously a NOMINAL Christian (whatever that means) and they don't care about conforming their lives according to the will of God, should we allow them comfortable entry and fellowship within the 'church?'

I do not believe salvation can be lost. But if a person falls into sin, and remains in sin for the rest of their lives unto death, I believe they were never regenerate to begin with, rather they were like the seeds that Christ speaks of, that fall upon shall soil, with a rock beneath.

They flourish for a moment, and yet they fall away, because they never dug deep with the Law of God, and were never completely regenerated by the power of the Holy Spirit.

So... the question is... if a person is obviously a NOMINAL Christian (whatever that means) and they don't care about conforming their lives according to the will of God, should we allow them comfortable entry and fellowship within the 'church?'

I will partake in no further discussion on this. I meant this nicely not so rudely as it sounded when I went back and read it!

God bless you!

Thought I would throw a little historical context into this discussion. The early Methodists (ca. 1800) had separate "services" if you will for both the lost and those who were born again and part of the local body. The exclusive meetings were called classes and were times of personal accountability before the group. The leader may go around the room inquiring in turn about each Christian's walk with the Lord that week, their battles with temptation, their time in prayer and the word, etc. It was a time of very personal ministry of the body to the body. There were other services where anyone was welcome.

In my opinion, if we boil it all down to a once a week or twice a week "service" and then ask whether the lost should or should not come, we have missed the point of the body of Christ entirely.

The body of Christ should be fulfilling both the growth and personal accountability of one another in private so to speak as well as reaching the world for Christ and bringing precious people into the kingdom. What that structure looks like may be as varied as the body in any location and the circumstances that body finds itself in.

Travis.

Hmm... I've had similar ideas about this class meeting type service... of getting serious believers together and digging very deep into the Word of God and applying it without compromise.

And yes Deepthinker, I would like further discussion.

My ultimate question is this... is the 'Church in America' salvageable in the state that it is in, or must there be a complete reformation from the bottom up in every way things are done...

All the way from those allowed into fellowship, how offering should be done, what constitutes true salvation / being born again, responsibility of elders, criterion for pastors, church discipline, missions, living the gospel, pronouncing the gospel etc.

Yes, we should. Because . . . #1, according your strict standards, I would have been kicked out 10 – 15 years ago but I allowed the Lord to change me. People change. #2, If we remembered that by OUR judgments we will be judged, I believe we’d show much more mercy. #3, the Bible says that “love covers a multitude of sin.” I will partake in no further discussion on this. So Lisa out!

I am really not in this for an argument.

But I deem a simple response necessary for this reply...

1. I believe if you were kicked out for whatever reason, the Lord would have used that in an edifying way to bring you back to the church repentant and seeking forgiveness from the Lord.

2. Our judgments are much more lackadaisical than the Lords... This is a fact. I believe what you meant to say is that the Lord is much more gracious and forgiving, although His judgments are uncompromising.

3. The most hateful thing I could do to an individual living in open sin while he proclaimed Christ as his savior would be to let him live the way he wanted to, and hear from Christ's mouth on the final day of judgment, "Depart from me I never knew you."

I do not wish any ill will between us, and I would even beg of your forgiveness if I have insulted you in this discussion. Let us both seek to provoke one another unto godliness.

I will pray for you Lisa, and thank you for your time in all this mess I'm trying to organize.

how offering should be done

When ever I hear that churches will record a person's giving- the amounts, I have been mortified. This flies in face of Jesus' admonition to not let the right hand know what the left hand does.

I think I would run as fast as I could from a church that does this.

ginnyrose

IWantAnquish wrote:

My ultimate question is this... is the 'Church in America' salvageable in the state that it is in, or must there be a complete reformation from the bottom up in every way things are done...

I don't want to be too quick to disparage the body of Christ, however, I also need to be honest enough to recognize when things are not as they should be. I grew up in a very traditional American church structure. The governing body of the church was the board, elected by popular vote by the body. They primarily dealt with business matters and made sure the pastor did not get out of line. The pastor was chosen by popular election as well. It was a defective and unscriptural system. Still, God moved among us. I grew up knowing what the presence of God among us "felt" like, even though I understand He is spiritually discerned and not through the carnal emotions. However, we were locked in tradition that often made the word of none effect and limited what God could do among us and through us. Evangelism was definitely not a focus of the body. Maintaining our unique doctrines and traditions was. Although the sense of tradition did tend to preserve many good things as well, and I was born again, baptized in the Holy Spirit, and a great hunger for God was instilled in my heart.

I have since studied church government and leadership quite extensively and, although I have a lot to learn, I have come to know some things that have totally transformed my leadership paradigm.

I noticed that you said this:

, responsibility of elders, criterion for pastors, church discipline,

The fact that you stated, "criterion for pastors", shows that you recognize that there are problems with the system, but are locked into modifying the existing structure to "fix" it. What if I said the whole structure must come down and a Biblical structure built from the ground up?

Ephesians 2:14-22 talks about God's design for the structure of His body. It says that the body of Christ is established on the foundation of the apostles and prophets having Christ as the chief corner stone. Ephesians 4:7-15 talks again of this body and the foundational leadership structure. Christ is the head, and He has given gifts to men. These gifts are enumerated in verse 11. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. These are grace gifts given to the body by Jesus Christ to establish and grow the body into the mature bride of Christ. Look at Romans 12:3-10. Paul says, "I am speaking out of the grace given me." He then goes on to talk about the grace given to all men in the form of unique gifts to the body and the necessity of all of those gifts.

If you will study carefully what took place in the early church recorded in the New Testament you will find, without exception, this pattern.

Apostles with prophets establish and coordinate new ministry. They are not the only ones who do this, but often this is the case.
Apostles always ordain Eldership/Bishopric (Look at Titus 1:5-7 and you will see that these offices are one and the same scripturally, and the terms are used interchangably by Paul). There was usually a plurality of eldership in each local body.
Either elders, or the body themselves by popular election chose deacons to oversee many various aspects of ministry within the body.
The five equipping gifts given to the body are not by mans choice, but by God's calling. Eph. 4:8; 1 Cor. 1, 2 Cor. 1, Col. 1, etc. Men can choose to aspire to the responsibility of eldership/bishopric. 1 Timothy 3:11. Eldership and deacons are offices. Five fold equipping gifts are NOT offices, but rather gifts to the body.

Interestingly enough, Paul NEVER writes a letter in which he mentions the pastor of a church. He always mentions bishops and elders. Pastor only appears once in the entirety of the New Testament, and that is in Eph. 4:11. The same greek word is translated shepherd several times and usually refers to Christ, but never to a single man with the sole responsibility of ministering to a local body of believers.

A pastor in the grace equipping gift sense can serve in the position of an elder in a local body. In fact, the nature of that grace gift makes one with the calling of pastor an ideal candidate for eldership in a body of believers.

I believe God intends for the church in a location (the local body) to have plurality of eldership, functioning deacons, and the five equipping gifts operating in the body to lead the body into maturity for the active work of ministry that body is called to do in that location.

Looks very different from the traditional pastor and deacon board structure we are accustomed to.

Travis.

Oh, as to finances... Paul talks very openly about the giving habits of the Phillipian church in Phil. 4. I am not opposed to the eldership of my body knowing how much I am giving. It would be very inappropriate indeed for that information to be shared openly among the body and people compared as I have heard happen in some bodies. I think this scripture is helping to make the point that your giving is unto God, and is not for show before men. That is, give without announcing what you are doing. You are giving to God, not trying to impress men.

IWantAnguish wrote:
My ultimate question is this... is the 'Church in America' salvageable in the state that it is in, or must there be a complete reformation from the bottom up in every way things are done...

All the way from those allowed into fellowship, how offering should be done, what constitutes true salvation / being born again, responsibility of elders, criterion for pastors, church discipline, missions, living the gospel, pronouncing the gospel etc.

The end is near and the [b]C[/b]hurch does not lie in ruins, "little" c church does but not the Bride!

I know many argue with me on this but this is the road I try to take in all things....

[i]Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.[/i]
James 5.19-20

[i]But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers. And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins."[/i]
1 Peter 4.7-8

Should we continue to have Sunday worship services mixed with the unconverted goats within?

1 Cor 14:23-25 makes it clear unbelievers are present during an assembly.

I don't think any other discussion is necessary :-)

My ultimate question is this... is the 'Church in America' salvageable in the state that it is in?

God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, didn't He? God saved you, didn't He? God is able to make dead bones live yet again, isn't He?