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The Biblical position on the King James Version controversy

T
tjservant

Just posting this for some of the information it provides. No need to slam MacArthur or the name he gave the article, just thought the info could be useful in light of other translation threads

The Biblical position on the King James Version controversy - John MacArthur

Recognizing that the Bible is the very Word of the Living God to man, and understanding the priority of knowing and obeying its truths, the elders at Grace Community Church are deeply committed to study and teach with diligence and authority.

Thus, the central ministry of Grace Church is the continuous imparting of the Scripture to the people of God that they may know God and serve Him in worship and ministry.

Through their years of study, training and teaching, the elders have come to convictions regarding the major theological truths of the Bible. This little booklet presents one of these truths which reflects the heart of the teaching here at Grace.

John MacArthur, Jr.

We regularly receive letters from our Grace To You listeners who react to statements that, "The better and older texts say. . ." Our listeners conclude that the Greek manuscripts behind the KJV are not accurate. Often they send literature defending the KJV.

Here is a typical letter:

Dear Pastor MacArthur:

I regard you as one of the best ministers around and your interpretation as tops. We have many of your tapes, notes, etc. So you can see that in this household you are highly regarded.

However, there is one area where I, personally, am becoming extremely confused and frustrated. This is when you, as well as a few other ministers, state that certain Scriptures (usually from KJV) are not accurate according to the best manuscripts. And, today, during the broadcast I thought I understood you to say that the KJV is not really the most accurate translation. Yet, I have heard and read from equally godly sources that the KJV is the most accurate, and they give source material for this conclusion that sounds most convincing.

So, I would very much appreciate a clarification. When you refer to a KJV Scripture as "not according to the best manuscripts" just exactly what do you mean and what exactly are the best manuscripts? If KJV is not the most accurate translation, then which translation is and why do you regard it so?

I'm sure you will agree that in this day and time we all need to be able to point to God's Word and say to the ungodly, et. al., that it is accurate and why. It is most important that we all know and be sure of what we are talking about, in order to be witnesses of the true Word of God.

Thank you very much for your response.

In His Name,

In response to these letters, we have developed this statement:

Thank you for your recent letter and encouragement concerning our tape ministry. The question you raised concerning various Bible versions is a very complex issue that cannot be adequately discussed in a letter. Often times it is filled with more emotion and heat than it is knowledge and light. Let me share with you my own conclusions after studying these issues. Bible versions, such as the New International Version and the New American Standard Bible, have been translated by godly men of demonstrated academic repute from the very best manuscript evidence that is available today. May I add, the manuscript evidence that is now available is far superior to that which was available to the King James Version's translators in 1611. I would have no reservation in recommending these versions, yet I myself choose to continue using the Scofield Reference Bible because it is the text with which I am most familiar.

Let me recommend a recent book which very carefully discusses the issues. I think you might find it helpful. The author is Donald A. Carson, "The King James Version Debate," published by Baker Book House. I have also enclosed a well-written pamphlet by the president of one of America's leading seminaries, a Greek scholar in his own right, which presents a very balanced view of the King James Version.

Just a final word, keep in mind that the supporters of "God wrote only one Bible" theology have mistakenly equated the 1611 King James Bible with the original manuscripts written in the first century. It is true that God wrote only one Bible, but it is also true that it was not the King James translation.

These are detailed issues, especially for those who are not trained in the field of the Greek language and New Testament textual studies. But I trust that these brief comments will prove helpful.

Yours In His service,

John MacArthur
Pastor-Teacher

The Background

Why do these people write? Where do they get their information? There is a growing literature crusade which claims that "God wrote only one Bible." By one Bible, they mean the King James Version Bible written in 1611. They conclude that the King James Version is the only English version which faithfully preserves the original writings. It is often supported with claims illustrated by the title of this article, "My Stand on the Inerrancy of the King James Version."

They build their case upon such doctrines as the preservation of Scripture, the inerrancy of Scripture and one's continued commitment to God.I have one letter in my file whose letterhead reads, "Good News Baptist Church, Home of 'King James Bible Schools.'" The letter was written to promote the "King James Bible Preachers Fellowship." This group of pastors is characterized as, "Men who are unashamed to proclaim the King James Bible, A.D. 1611, as God's holy, perfect word. God still has a few men who have not bowed the knee to the Baal of scholarship."

The Circumstances

Some basic facts about the existing manuscripts of the New Testament will help us to understand the historical background of this issue.

1. The Old and New Testaments were not originally written in the English language. They were first written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.

2. We do not have the originals of any of the books of the Bible.

3. God never promised the perfect preservation of the originals, but He did promise to preserve their content. They are preserved within the body of currently existing manuscripts.

4. There are differences among the original language manuscripts that have come down to us in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. This is the chief cause of the problem.

5. These textual variations are almost always incidental and do not significantly affect the sense of what Scripture is saying. As a matter of fact, once the easily solved variants are removed, 99.9 percent of what is in our Bible can be confirmed without question.

6. It is usually easy to identify the cause behind a textual variant because the Greek New Testament has been preserved in far more existing manuscripts than any other piece of ancient literature. We are faced with, "an embarrassment of riches."

7. Many textual problems have already been resolved satisfactorily and are no longer in question.

8. No doctrine in Orthodox Christianity is dependent on the solution to any one variant.

The Controversy

The heart of the issue involves several questions, "Is one version inherently superior to another?" "Is one family of manuscripts superior to another and if so, which one?" And then, "How do we know?"

There is a host of background materials which we really need at this point to discuss the issue adequately. Neither space nor time permits, but let me suggest several volumes which you will find informative reading if you wish to pursue the issue.

J. Harold Greenlee. "Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism." Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1964.

Bruce M. Metzger. "The Text of the New Testament." Second Edition. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1968.

Various Approaches

How do we choose between these textual variations? Several solutions have been offered to determine which manuscripts are most accurate in deciding which variant was in the original manuscript. They include:

1. "King James only"

2. "Majority-Text only"

3. "Thorough-going eclectic"

4. "Westcott-Hort"

5. "Balanced eclectic"

The "King James only" approach suggests that the English translation of 1611 is inspired of God. It equates the Word of God, in the very real sense of the autographs, with the King James Version Bible.

In the October, 1978 issue of "Bible Believers Bulletin," Peter Ruckman makes this statement: ". . . the Holy Ghost, who honored the English text above any Greek or Hebrew text. . ." By this he meant that the KJV translators were guided more accurately in their translation by the Holy Spirit than were those men who copied the original manuscripts.

The Bible Truth Mission in Millersburg, Pennsylvania has made a $10,000 offer on Bible versions. Their challenge is this, "We have decided to have a standing offer of $10,000 for anyone who can disprove, to our satisfaction, the authenticity and historicity of the facts surrounding the King James Bible as compared to other versions, paraphrases, translations, etc. We are making this offer to permanently silence the small group of biased news journalists, self-appointed scholars, Bible book stores and publishing companies, who question why the vast majority of born again Christians use the King James only."

A second approach is the "Majority-Text only" school. This reasonable approach also promotes the King James Bible. Zane Hodges, professor at Dallas Theological Seminary, would be the most qualified supporter. The Dean Burgon Society was recently formed to promote this position. Thomas Nelson Publishers of Nashville issued the New King James Version under the academic leadership of Dr. Arthur Farstad with this position in mind.

The "Majority-Text only" position advocates that God preserved His Word in the text which is found the largest number of manuscripts. Because the largest number of manuscripts are found in the Byzantine family, this family should then be considered the primary and favored external witness.

Next is the "thorough-going eclectic" school. Basically, these folks are liberals who reject any consideration of external evidence such as manuscript families, date of manuscript and so on. They concentrate all of their energies on internal consideration for a literary analysis of the text. They hold little sway among conservatives.

Fourth, the "Westcott-Hort" approach has long been publicized as the approach which modern conservatives hold. Westcott and Hort suggested that the Alexandrian family of manuscripts are the oldest and thus preferred. They also concluded that external evidence, that is, manuscript families, outweighs internal evidence and that the Alexandrian variant, all other factors being equal, is the one preferred. You can read their explanation in the Westcott-Hort Greek New Testament (pp. 1541-583).

There is a fifth approach, and it is actually the one that many conservatives currently espouse. This "balanced" position holds that each text type is to be evaluated independently without premeditated bias. It also posits that internal and external evidences are to be considered equally. It basically suggests that each textual variant is to be investigated thoroughly and considered on its own merits.

Support for KJV

Now, let's look at the major arguments normally used by those who support either the "King James only" or the "Majority Text only." These six summaries accurately portray their frequently used arguments.

1. The doctrine of the inerrancy of the Bible necessitates not only that the original manuscripts were without error, but also that there must be extant copies without error to preserve its inerrancy. Otherwise, even liberals can believe in the inerrancy of the originals but deny the inerrancy of the Bible we have today if all extant copies have textual errors. In the Greek, the inerrant manuscripts are the "textus receptus" (TR) which underlies the King James Authorized Version of the Bible.

2. Although God has allowed textual errors to occur in all of the Greek copies of the original New Testament manuscripts, He has preserved the best text in the vast majority of these copies. The best text is found by looking through all of the extant Greek manuscripts and choosing the wording of the majority of those manuscripts. With 80-95 percent of the manuscripts of almost identical readings for any given passage, it should be obvious that the majority text is God's providentially preserved text.

3. The Greek manuscripts underlying all the modern versions of the New Testament come from Alexandria, Egypt. They cannot be the best manuscripts because they have been in the possession of heretics such as Origen or the Roman Catholic church. God would not use such people to transmit the best text since they would alter the text to suit their own teachings.

Furthermore, the Alexandrian text was not in general use from the 8th to the 19th centuries. God would not allow the true text to be hidden from public view for such a long time. Finally, God would not use liberals, such as Westcott and Hort, to rediscover and resurrect the true text.

4. The TR manuscripts are the best manuscripts because they properly exalt the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, while the Alexandrian manuscripts do not. When the Alexandrian manuscripts are compared with the TR, many places are found where the words, "Lord" and "Christ" are missing in reference to Jesus. This shows that the people who copied the Alexandrian manuscripts did not want to believe Jesus as both "Lord" and "Christ."

5. The Alexandrian manuscripts could not be the true text because they teach doctrines different from those found in the TR. These errors include justification by works, Arianism and belief that the Apocrypha is part of the text.

6. The King James Version and the Greek TR text underlying it must be the best text because God has so blessed its use since the time of the reformation. In every major modern revival men have preached from these texts. God has not used and will not use the Alexandrian text to do such great works among men.

An Example

Recently we received a tape by a well-known pastor on this subject. It is impossible to summarize the tape in this limited paper, but the letter response which we wrote is included here.

Dear_____________:

Recently, one of my flock dropped off several of your tapes entitled, "The Foundation of the Word." Because I am deeply committed to the inerrancy of the Bible, I listened with interest to your presentation.

I was somewhat surprised as you got into the subject. Weekly we receive letters through our own tape ministry asking the question, "Did God write only one Bible?" By this, they mean the Authorized Version.

As I listened, I noted numerous factual errors and illogical conclusions. I am taking time to write not to prove you wrong or me right, but rather to ensure that whatever conclusions we reach, they are reached with correct data and right thinking.

We would agree that Satan often misuses Scripture (Matthew 4:6) and delights in distorting or denying God's Word. We agree that any addition or deletion to God's Word as given in the original writings is a serious matter and incurs strict judgment (Revelation 22:18-19). We agree that we can believe the Bible in its entirety and never go wrong. We agree that the Bible is the

final authority of faith and practice. It's a delight to share that common ground.

We do, however, disagree when it comes to Bible versions. If I understood your tapes correctly, you were saying that the King James Version is the only English translation which has faithfully transmitted the truth of God in its entirety from the original writings of the 1st Century. I still use the Scofield Reference Bible which is basically a King James Version, but I do not believe it's the only good version.

This entire matter is the most complex discipline in all of Biblical studies because of the intricacy and volume of the data. I do not pretend to be a polished textual critic, but I have thought through the data. Let me suggest that whether the position I take or the position you take is the correct one, the substantiation that you provided on the tapes makes a very inadequate case for the conclusion that you reached. I want to list these just for your help.

1. You say that Satan misquoted God by taking away a few words in Genesis 3:1. You quote Satan as having said, "Hath God said that you can eat of all the trees that are in the garden?" You yourself have misquoted Scripture at that point for the question reads like this, "Yea, hath God said, ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"

2. You asserted that the textual critics and the scholars who say that you cannot accept all of the King James Version are the same scholars who say that you can't accept the stories of the Bible as genuine. They are the ones, you say, that call Old Testament miracles Hebrew myths. And they are the ones who deny the virgin birth of our Lord, the resurrection of our Lord and His deity. Come now, that is guilt by association in its pure form. You tried to lead your audience to conclude, "Because they agree on one point, they agree on all points." That's like saying that because the Mormons are for the family but deny the deity of Christ, then we ought to deny the family. I know you would not draw those conclusions there. It is simply not true that godly men have denied the very orthodox foundations of the Christian faith when they investigate all of the manuscript data. By the way, few people today, believers or unbelievers, embrace all of the Westcott & Hort theory of textual criticism. Whatever the solution is to this issue, it will not be solved by using the tactic of guilt by association.

3. You say that 2 Peter 2:1-2 refers to these kinds of people. "False prophets who deny the Lord that bought them." That is a highly inflammatory statement and much unlike your normal well-reasoned, well-presented teaching.

It is again simply untrue and logically unnecessary to conclude that those who look to a Bible version other than a King James are the same ones that Peter references in this second chapter.

4. In your tape you say there are two major textual families. The Textus Receptus and the Alexandrian family are those that you identify. That is a very unfactual statement. There are at least four manuscript families that are widely recognized. They include the Alexandrian Text, the Western Text, the Caesarean Text and the Byzantine or the Majority Text. Note carefully that the TR, or the Textus Receptus, compromises just a portion of the Byzantine Text and is not the entire family. Also, Westcott & Hort did not develop the Alexandrian family of manuscripts. They merely attempted to recognize certain similarities within a group of manuscripts and account for their existence.

5. You said that Westcott & Hort worked on the Bible version of 1881. Let's be specific. Westcott & Hort worked on the English Revised Version of 1885.

6. You went to great lengths to suggest that gnosticism prevailed in the 2nd Century and drew the conclusion that because gnosticism prevailed, gnostics altered the older text; therefore, you reason the earliest manuscripts are not reliable. Those assertions will not hold up under investigation. There have been apostates and heretics throughout all of church history. Quite frankly, there is no factual substantiation that Aleph, Vaticanus, Alexandrinus or any of the early papyrii which, by the way, you never mentioned in your tape and are really the earliest Greek manuscripts we have, were of gnostic origins and doctored to conform to their heresies.

7. You use Marcion as an example of a gnostic who mutilated the Bible text. Let me tell you, Marcion did not limit himself to texts, but he published a canon of the New Testament which included only 11 books. He was anti-semitic in his thinking and included only the gospel of Luke and ten epistles of Paul. He deleted Paul's pastoral epistles. You also criticize Irenaeus.

Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John the Apostle. Church history has not recognized him as a heretic and neither should we.8. You listed a number of men in early church history who were gnostic in background and therefore to be disbelieved in whatever they did with the text. You suggested that anyone that came from Alexandria was immediately suspect. You focus on the Nicene debate where Arius was attempting to demonstrate that Christ was something less than identical in nature to God.

Do you remember who opposed him? His name was Athanasius. Do you know what his title was? He was the Bishop of Alexandria. You also suggested in that portion that Constantine, then emperor of the Roman empire, hired Jerome to translate the Latin Vulgate. That's simply not true. Pope Damascus hired Jerome to do the Vulgate in A.D. 382.

9. You suggest that the New Testament manuscripts that came out of Antioch are known as the TR or Textus Receptus. That is simply untrue. The term "TR" as it applies to the text of the New Testament, originated in an expression used by the Elzevir brothers in the preface to their second edition of the Greek New Testament in 1633. That introduction reads in English, "Therefore, you now have the text received by all in which we have nothing changed or corrupted." In the Latin, it reads, "Textum . . . receptum. . ." The King James Version was first published in 1611 and did not use, in its entirety, the manuscripts that were used to produce what the publishers called the TR. The TR is simply a subfamily of a much larger family called the Byzantine text or the majority text.

10. You associate Augustine with the Church of England. That must have been a slip of the tongue because there is absolutely no association. Augustine would be associated with the Roman church.

11. You suggest that the church of Rome tried to wipe out the doctrine of the deity of Christ, but that would be rather silly since the Roman church does embrace the deity of Jesus Christ. It's in other areas that they have severe problems.

12. You suggested that the Syriac Peshitta was translated in 165 A.D. and conformed in all parts to the King James Version. No, that's not true. The Syriac Peshitta is a 5th century translation and it does not agree at every point with the King James Version. Let me illustrate from one of the texts that you'll list later in your tape. You suggested that in Matthew 25:13 the phrase, "in which the Son of Man is coming" was deleted by the heretics to avoid mention of the second coming of Jesus Christ. The reading that deletes that phrase is supported and included in the Syriac Peshitta.

13. You make a great deal to do about the true fact that 80-90 percent of the extant manuscripts generally conform to what's called the Byzantine or Majority Text. While this family might be the best family, it is not because the majority of texts available today come from it. Quite honestly, we do not know how many manuscripts have been destroyed and what family they represented. The logic that "the most demands the best" is "non sequitor." If you will read about the discipline of textual criticism in literature other than the Bible where evidence is abundantly available, you will discover that with the greater numbers of copies and the greater passage of time, the more errors there were in the later writings. It is much like passing a message verbally and watching it become distorted as it passes through the greater number of people and over the longer period of time.

14. It was at this point that you began to point to a number of examples where the King James Version differed from other Bibles. That's a true statement, but let me make these general observations, and then I want to deal with several of the texts.

a. There is no doctrine in all of orthodox historic Christianity, which you and I hold to dearly, that is removed from the Bible because of any of the textual variants.

b. You have assumed your case for the King James Version when you demand that a deletion to the King James or an addition to the King James is a perversion. Quite frankly, it is just as possible for the opposite to be true, that is, that the King James translators, or those who copied the manuscripts that they used, added to or deleted from the original text. You really need to prove your point before you claim it.

c. Did you know that the King James translators translated and included the Apocrypha originally as part of the King James Version? That certainly does not speak to their orthodoxy.

d. Did you know that a portion of the manuscripts that they used to translate the Book of Revelation came from Erasmus, himself a very humanistic Roman church scholar. He translated a portion of his Revelation manuscript from Latin back into Greek because his Greek manuscripts lacked those pieces.

e. There have been heretics who mutilated the Bible to conform with their errors. Jehovah's Witnesses is a classic modern example. In their New World Translation, they have stripped the text of all direct mention of Christ's deity. But note carefully, they did it consistently and completely; it was not a half-hearted random attempt. We should expect this kind of thoroughness when any cult or heretic tries to denude God's precious Word of vital truth.

Well, let's look at several specific texts which bothered you.

You pointed out how certain key doctrines were removed from these texts by heretics. You point to Matthew 6:13 and the deletion of the phrase in the disciples' prayer, "For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever." Answer me this, why did they leave it in 1 Chronicles 29:11 which is the Old Testament attestation of this great truth?

You note the deletion in Matthew 18:11 of the phrase, "For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost." But why did they leave it in Luke 19:10?

With many of your examples, the fact that a text has apparently either been added to or subtracted from does not demand that it was necessarily the original text.

You mention Mark 16. That text has evoked no end of critical discussion. For many, they delete it because it simply solves some of their theological hangups. I know we differ on the charismatic issue and quite honestly, it would be easy for me to hide behind the cloak of textual criticism and conclude that because it's not in some of the manuscripts, that therefore, verses 9 ff. are to be deleted. The evidence is not conclusive for either side, but a good case can be made for the inclusion of Mark 16:9-20 and I myself believe that it should be included and then rightly interpreted.

Next, you say that the term "father" is added to Luke 2:33 to discredit the virgin birth of our Lord. But why, if they were trying to do that in Luke 2:33, did they leave in the exact quotation and substantiation from the Old Testament in Matthew 1:23?

In John 3:15 you note that the idea of perishing is not included in verse 15 of some manuscripts. You conclude that they were trying to delete the idea of eternal punishment. But why, then, would they have allowed the same idea to remain in verse 16?

You note that in Acts 2:30 the idea of Christ being raised up is deleted, and then you conclude that those who deleted it were trying to deny the resurrection. But why did they leave the term "resurrection" in the very next verse?

You note in Ephesians 3:9 that the name "Christ" has been deleted from the phrase that would give him credit for creation. But why did they leave this same idea in Colossians 1:16?

Perhaps the biggest error of fact that you report concerns 1 John 5:7-8. You claim that it was a part of the original manuscript and should, therefore, be included in any Bible. You and I both cling lovingly and tightly to the tri-unity of God. It is taught in numerous places in both testaments. To say that the deletion of the phrase in verse 7, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One" is to deny the tri-unity of God is not true.

Have you really read the textual history of that particular manuscript? Let me give you a summary. The passage is absent from every known Greek manuscript except four, and these four contain the passage of what appears to be a translation from a late translation of the Latin Vulgate. These four manuscripts are dated very, very late. The passage is quoted by none of the Greek fathers, who, if they had known it, would certainly have used it in the trinitarian controversies of the early centuries. The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions. It is quoted first in time not in a Bible text but in a Latin treatise about the Bible in the 4th Century A.D.

Its inclusion in the TR seems to have come through the pen of Erasmus. When charged by Stunica, Erasmus replied that he had not found any Greek manuscript containing these words, but that if a single Greek manuscript could be found that contained it, he would include it in a future edition.

The one manuscript that was later presented to Erasmus in substantiation of the inclusion of that verse has now been identified as a Greek manuscript written in Oxford about 1520 by a Franciscan friar who took the words from the Latin Vulgate. Erasmus then inserted the passage in his third edition of 1522 but indicated in a lengthy footnote his own personal suspicions that the manuscript had been prepared in order to refute him. These are the facts.

15. You speak very highly of the New King James Version recently published by Thomas Nelson. Did you know that they footnote I John 5:7 and suggest that it has very little manuscript evidence? By the way, I personally know several of the translators who worked on that project and while the original intent was to do new translations from the majority text, what ultimately happened in the midst of the commercial endeavor was to merely change the English text by modernizing a number of archaic words which makes it little more than a Scofield without notes.

Well, I have continued on at some length. Let me affirm again that my comments are not directed to you as a person. My pursuit is merely for truth. I deal with this issue weekly when I receive letters from people from all over the country. The question appears in my own congregation. I felt it was necessary that I share these thoughts with you.

There is a man who has done some significant and very sane and scholarly investigation into these matters. He champions the Byzantine or Majority Text as the family of manuscripts which most accurately represent the autographs. His name is Zane Hodges and he teaches New Testament and Greek at Dallas Theological Seminary. As you sincerely pursue this matter, let me suggest that you contact him and let him send you the materials that he has written. He's also in the process of preparing the Greek New Testament from the Byzantine text. I know you will want to use this in preparation for your messages.

Hopefully, you can see that I have not written to say that one family of manuscripts is better than another family of manuscripts, but rather to say we need to factually and logically substantiate our positions and not rush prematurely into conclusions which have wide ramifications.

Thank you for taking time to read through this material. There is no need to respond. I pray that this has been a learning opportunity for both of us and that we will draw closer and dig deeper into the pure well of God's Word which will provide refreshment first for us, and then for our flock.

Yours in His service,

John MacArthur
Pastor-Teacher

What Is The TR?

One great problem with this whole issue is that the term, "textus receptus" is often misunderstood and misused.

The Trinitarian Bible Society exists for the purpose of circulating uncorrupted versions of the Word of God (namely KJV). Terrence H. Brown, the TBS secretary, makes this honest admission, "One problem is that many people use the term 'textus receptus' without defining it, and give the impression that this received text is available somewhere in a single manuscript or printed copy, but this is not the case. No copy, written or printed, was called the 'textus receptus' until the Elzevirs used this description in the preface to their addition in 1633. It should therefore be understood that the King James Version translators, who published their work in 1611, did not use an addition of the Greek text actually known by this name."

It is very interesting to note that there are about 290 differences between the "textus receptus" and the King James Version. Let me illustrate.

1. Note in Romans 12:11 where the TR has "serving in season" but KJV, along with all modern versions, has "serving the Lord."

2. In I Thessalonians 2:15, the TR has the pronoun "you" while the KJV, along with all other modern versions, has the pronoun "us."

3. The King James Version in Revelation 11:1 has the reading, "And the angels stood." The TR, along with all modern versions, does not include this phrase.

4. If you read 1 John 2:23 in the KJV, you note that the translators included in italics the phrase, "But he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also." It is omitted in the TR but included as a part of the text in most modern versions.

5. Luke 17:36, "Two men shall be in the field; and one shall be taken, the other left" is included in the King James Version but it is omitted in the TR and all other modern versions.

6. Matthew 23:24 is a humorous example of a printing error, not a translation error. The King James Version reads, "Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat and swallow a camel." It's obvious to everyone that the word "at" should be "out."

7. The problem of 1 John 5:7-8 was discussed in the lengthy letter earlier so we won't discuss it here.

8. In Revelation 22:1 9, both the TR and the King James Version have the phrase, "Book of Life." That phrase is not found in any Greek manuscript, rather "tree of life" is the only text. Erasmus translated the last six verses from the Latin Vulgate because his Greek manuscript lacked these verses. Just a final note. Even the KJV translators did not claim for their work what modern promoters insist. The original translators at times were uncertain of the correct variant and made marginal notes to indicate other possibilities. In the preface to the original KJV, the editors acknowledged the profit from other versions. Here is what they wrote:

"Therefore as S. Augustine saith, that varietie of Translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures: so diversitie of signification and sense in the margine, where the text is not so cleare, must needes doe good, yea, is necessary, as we are perswaded."

Evaluation of TR Arguments Against W-H TR advocates have argued forcibly against Westcott-Hort. Let's look at some of the arguments used by TR supporters against their theory and our response from a "balanced" approach.

1. The oldest manuscripts all come from Egypt, but this does not prove that the same text type existed in the rest of the world. Response: True, but it doesn't prove the opposite either. And the Alexandrian manuscripts are the oldest we presently possess. We would expect that if there were other early families, they would have circulated to Egypt and thus would have been preserved there also.

2. The age of a manuscript does not guarantee its value. Response: True. A late manuscript could be a copy of a very ancient one, whereas an older manuscript might be a copy of one not much removed from it in time. All things being equal, however, the oldest manuscripts are closer in time to the autographs. The shorter time interval means fewer copies and fewer chances of error. This principle is used in all literary textual criticism, not just the Greek New Testament.

3. There is no evidence that the TR resulted from a revision and is thus a secondary text type. This had been the supposition on the part of Westcott and Hort to account for the Byzantine text. Response: True. This revision is discounted by most today. It is the most obvious error in the entire Westcott-Hort theory.

4. Manuscripts tend to multiply in more or less regular fashion. The text type with the most descendants must have existed the longest, hence, the TR must represent the oldest text type. Response: This is historically naive in that no evidence exists to demonstrate it. It assumes the uniformitarian approach to the transmission of manuscripts. This history of literature just does not support it.

5. God's providence has kept the TR as the authoritative text. He would not have allowed the church to have the "wrong text" for so long. Response: God's providence has preserved all text types and the Christian message is preserved in all text types. The TR was not "the" text of the early church in Egypt, Palestine or the West. God's providence has allowed the church to lose things of much more importance than differences between these competing text types such as the doctrine of justification by faith. Also, as we discovered earlier, the TR manuscripts differ even among themselves. If God had preserved His Word inerrantly in the TR manuscripts, then there should be no variation whatsoever in all of the various manuscripts.

6. Our oldest manuscripts survived only because they were faulty and hence were not used and did not wear out. Response: Scribal corrections on these manuscripts disprove this claim. Logic demands that faulty manuscripts would have been destroyed rather than just shelved for future use or discovery.

7. TR readings are earlier than we once thought. Response: True, but this does not make them necessarily superior to other text types but would just allow for an even treatment. New papyrii discoveries from the 2nd and 3rd centuries do evidence Byzantine text type variants. It does demonstrate that they were available, but it does not recognize them as superior.

8. The critical text or the Westcott-Hort text or any other text besides the "textus receptus" deletes or plays down the deity of Christ. Response: Not true. It is interesting to note that of all the versions, only one version, the New World Translation done by Jehovah's Witnesses, consistently deletes from the text any support for the deity of Jesus Christ. We would expect that from JW's because it is not a part of their doctrine. It is highly unlikely and totally unexpected that one would be so inconsistently selective as to leave so many obvious references to the deity of Christ in a manuscript if their purpose was to remove it.

9. Textual critics are all rationalists and therefore incapable of desiring God's truth or determining to preserve it. Response: Not all textual critics are rationalists nor are they unbelievers. There have been many godly men such as Westcott, Tregelles, Tischendorf, Robertson and Machen who worked years earlier. Before me is a list of godly men who worked on the New International Version. They include such men as Laird Harris, Charles Ryrie, Gleason Archer, Kenneth Barker, John Davis, S. Lewis Johnson, Ken Kantzer, Homer Kent, Meredith Klein, Alfred Martin, Leon Morris, Barton Payne, Merrill Tenney and Leon Wood. It is simply not true that the issue of the King James versus modern translations is equated with the issue of Fundamentalism versus Modernism.

Summing It Up

What approach should be used to determine the variant which accurately represents what God originally wrote? It is our opinion that the "balanced approach" is best. It gives equal weight to both internal and external evidence. It gives unbiased consideration to the various manuscript families.

The argument that defends the Byzantine tradition, by appealing to the fact that most manuscripts in the Greek New Testament attest the Byzantine, is logically and historically weak. It is not a truism that a majority of manuscripts necessarily preserve the best text.

The argument that defends the Byzantine text by appealing to the providence of God is theologically false. The determination of the best variant in an individual case is not a theological issue alone, but primarily a textual issue.

Textual arguments that depend on adopting the "textus receptus" and then comparing it to other text types are guilty of bias. To argue that because a modern version does not include something that's included in the TR, or adds something which the TR does not add, is to argue that the modern versions and their translators are guilty of adding to or subtracting from the true text.

It could be equally true that those who translated the TR were the ones who actually deleted or added. The charge that the non-Byzantine text types are theologically in error is wrong. This was evidenced earlier in our lengthy letter.There is no necessary connection between the adoption of the Byzantine text/King James Version and the inspiration of Scripture. There are equally godly, scholarly men on both sides of this issue who all strongly embrace the historic, orthodox understanding of the inerrancy and infallibility of the Scriptures.

Adoption of the TR or King James Version should never be made a point of theological orthodoxy or ecclesiastical fellowship.

A believer should continue to use an accurate English translation which is personally most readable and understandable such as KJV, NASB, or NIV.

A Final Note

As a capstone to our discussion, we quote from the helpful brochure published by Grace Theological Seminary and written by its president, Dr. Homer A. Kent, Jr. "It needs to be remembered that the differences between the Alexandrian and Byzantine text types are not nearly as great as might be supposed. If one could remove the old English style from the King James Version so that the comparison would be fairer, the differences between these text types can be seen by noting the difference between the King James Version and the American Standard Version. The gospel is crystal clear in either version. It is regrettable that an issue is being made over this matter in evangelical circles, especially when some extremists are making one's attitude toward the King James Version an article of faith, and unwarrantedly raising suspicions against those who do not. The issue is forcing many Christians to make a choice where they lack the necessary knowledge and skill to do so. How much better it would be to thank God that His Word has been preserved intact for centuries, and that the wealth of manuscripts assures us that none of the words have been lost. In a few cases, we may not be certain which of several variants is the original, but our problem is an embarrassment of riches, not of loss."

S
sojourner7

What matters most is that we recognize the
Scriptures as the inspired Word of GOD and
recognize the authority of HE who speaks
through His Word, His Son, and His Spirit!!

L
Leo_Grace

Great post, TJ --- informative and balanced. I learned a lot. Thank you.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi tjservant...

Thank you for including this article. I have often wondered what John MacArthur's thoughts might be about this.

S
sermonindex

To ccchhhrrriiisss:

When I saw the thread, and realized that John MacArthur had something to say about the King James Bible, I knew in advance that you would be in total agreement with him. Why is that? Because you support every version other than the King James, regardless of your posts that assure us that you use it!

John MacArthur uses the New King James Bible, which is nothing more than a hybrid Bible, that consists mainly of the minority text, with a small amount of the majority text placed in critical places throughout, places where those without compelete discernment would believe that it was "right on" with the King James Bible, and not a counterfeit (and beleive me, it is A COUNTERFEIT!)


John MacArthur's Lame Bible Commentary

By David J. Stewart

[url=http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/NKJB/macarthur-lame.htm]John MacArthur's Lame Bible Commentary[/url]

I have in front of me the "Revised and Updated" edition of The MacArthur Study Bible. It pains me to look through it, because John MacArthur's commentary is as corrupt as is the New King James Version (hereafter referred to as NKJV) upon which it is based.

[color=990000]I'd like to share with you some of my observations. A naive believer would have difficulty in identifying MacArthur's theological blunders and bias toward modern corrupt bible versions, but with the Lord's help I will show you a few things that I believe are very important.[/color]


[b]Worshipping Jesus Ignored[/b]

Jesus Christ is worthy to be worshipped as Almighty God (John 1:1-3,14;10:33; Revelation 1:8), and we should worship Him.

[color=990000]Deceitfully, most modern versions remove the word "worship" concerning Jesus Christ, and replace it with a mere "knelt." The NKJV is no exception and perverts the Word of God in Matthew 20:20. Of course, in all these perverted bibles, they still keep the word "worship" in Revelation 13:4 concerning those who worship THE BEAST! Evidently Nelson Publishers has no problem with worshipping Satan.

[b]The King James Bible (hereafter referred to as KJB) reads in Matthew 20:20...

"Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, WORSHIPPING him, and desiring a certain thing of him.."[/b]

The corrupted NKJV reads in Matthew 20:20...

"Then the mother of Zebedee's sons came to Him with her sons,[b][u] kneeling down and asking something from Him." [/u][/b]

Interestingly, John MacArthur, in his Revised and Updated 1997 edition of The MacArthur Study Bible fails to comment on the issue of worshipping Jesus in Matthew 8:2, 9:18; 14:33; 15:25 and so forth. What is he hiding? I believe it's because MacArthur knows that if he comments on these Scriptures, i.e., concerning Jesus being "worshipped," that he'll stick his neck out, because the NKJV and other modern versions have been corrupted. The trustworthy KJB says that the mother of Zebedee's sons "worshipped" Jesus; but the watered-down NKJV states that she only kneeled before Jesus. There's a big difference between kneeling and worshipping. One can kneel in honor or respect of a dignitary without worshipping him. For MacArthur to comment on this issue, in lieu of these corrupted Scriptures, would open him up to much criticism.

The Greek word for "worshipping" in the KJB is proskuneo, which originates from the act of a dog licking his master's hand. I'd say that's worship! Yet, the corrupters of the NKJV chose a lesser meaning, than to render to Jesus Christ the worship that He is entitled to receive (Philippians 2:9-11). I'm sure if we were to interview the mother of Zebedee's sons, and ask her if she wanted to have the word "kneel" or " worship" used, which word do you think she would choose? You know the answer, and so did the King James translators and any other honest person. If you ask any believer who loves the Lord Jesus Christ if they would rather "kneel" or "worship" before Him, they would instantly say WORSHIP!

I find little use for a lame commentary that fails to comment on Scriptures where people worshipped the Savior, Creator and God of the universe. [/color]


[b]God's Promise to Preserve His Word Ignored[/b]

MacArthur fails to provide any meaningful comment on God's promise to preserve His Word unto all generations in Psalm 12:7-8. Psalm [b]12:6-8 in the KJB reads, "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted."[/b] Psalm 12:7 is God's promise that He will PRESERVE His Words in every generation. That means that somewhere on the earth today we have God's preserved Words. I believe God's Words have been faithfully preserved in the precious King James Bible. Here's the commentary which John MacArthur provides in his Revised and Updated "Study Bible" on page 752 for Psalm 12:7-8:

"The hostile realities of v. 8 call for the heavenly resources of v. 7"

SOURCE: The Revised and Updated edition of The MacArthur Study Bible, Thomas Nelson publishers, page 752

That's it? That's all you've got to say Mr. MacArthur concerning God's promise to preserve His Words? Lame!


[b]The Necessity of the Literal Blood of Jesus Ignored[/b]

MacArthur also fails to provide any meaningful comment on the applied blood of the Passover lamb in Exodus 12:13. In MacArthur's Revised and Updated "Study Bible," he avoids Exodus 12:13 like the Bubonic Plague. Exodus 12:13 in the KJB reads, "And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt." MacArthur doesn't comment concerning the necessity of applying the blood to the doorposts and lintel of the home. It baffles me as to why any professed Gospel preacher would make light of the literal blood of Jesus Christ. MacArthur has nothing good to say about Jesus' physical blood, because he doesn't think it has any value in and of itself.

[color=990000][b]Here are MacArthur's comments for Leviticus 17:11, i.e., the phrase "the life of the flesh is in the blood":

"..the shedding of blood represents the shedding of life, i.e., death ... NT references to the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ are references to His death."

SOURCE: The Revised and Updated edition of The MacArthur Study Bible, Thomas Nelson publishers, page 178

There is NO such teaching in the Scriptures! John MacArthur has fabricated his own corrupt way of thinking. Hebrews 9:6-7 state: "Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. But into the second [i.e., the holy of holies] went the high priest alone once every year, NOT WITHOUT BLOOD, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people." How can Mr. MacArthur be so naive and unbiblical as to claim that Jesus' literal physical blood didn't need to be applied to the Mercy Seat in Heaven, in consideration of such overwhelming Scriptural evidence?

What good is a "Study Bible" that ignores the most important doctrine in the entire Bible? 1st Peter 1:18,19 tells us just how important the blood of Jesus is: "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot." [/color][/b]


[b]Corrupting of the Scriptures Ignored[/b]

The NKJV perverts Romans 1:25.

Romans 1:25 in the KJB reads:

"Who CHANGED the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."

Romans 1:25 in the NKJV reads:

"who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."

The NKJV corrupted "changed the truth" to "exchanged the truth" (ditto: NIV, NASV, NRSV, RSV). Romans 1:25 in the KJB is clear that the ungodly corrupt the Word of God in an attempt to justify their sins. We see this much today. This is why the word "sodomite" has been completely removed from the demonic NIV bible, because there were homosexuals on the translating committee. The NKJV has distorted the true meaning of this Scripture, and John MacArthur's lame commentary on Romans 1:25, the phrase "the lie," proves it...

"A denial of God's existence and His right to be obeyed and glorified."

SOURCE: The Revised and Updated edition of The MacArthur Study Bible, Thomas Nelson publishers, page 1694

MacArthur is wrong, and so are Nelson Publisher's and their garbage bible. Verses 24,26 and 27 clearly indicate that the particular sin in focus here is homosexuality. "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves ... For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature" (Romans 1:24,26). It is clear from the context of the surrounding Scriptures that Romans 1:25 is condemning those who CHANGE the word of God, i.e., corrupt the truth into a lie, to justify their sins. Most homosexuals believe in God Mr. MacArthur. There is a massive homosexualization of churches taking place in America today, and it is of the Devil.

To interpret Romans 1:25 as merely applying to atheists is to completely and inexcusably overlook the lucrative Bible-corrupting movement in America today. The Greek word for "change" in the KJB is metallasso and means "to exchange, change." The root word for, llasso, means "to change, to exchange one thing for another, to transform." The King James translators understood this word to condemn those who transform, or change, the truth; thus, exchanging it for a lie instead. You can't just pick out one particular meaning as Nelson Publisher's has done. The word metallasso means to exchange by changing, not just exchanging in itself. This is very important. Homosexuals today are exchanging the truth of God's Word for a lie, by corrupting the Word of God. They even have their own queer bible now called the New Oxford Annotated Bible.

MacArthur fails to address the issue of corrupt bibles anywhere in his so-called "Bible Study." Folks, the Devil is shrewd and deadly. How is it that Mr. MacArthur is smart enough to see false religions, false christs and false prophets; but yet he can't see the forest for the trees when it comes to Satan corrupting the Word of God? There are false bibles everywhere today! Awake to righteousness!


[color=990000][b]Ghostwriting?

There are so many contradictions in The MacArthur Study Bible, as compared to MacArthur's previous writings, that it is questionable to me if some of his commentary was written by a GHOSTWRITER.

Here's a perfect example of how MacArthur contradicts himself 100%. On page 1920 of MacArthur's Revised and Updated "Study Bible," concerning Hebrews 12:14 and the phrase "pursue... holiness," he states:

"Unbelievers will not be drawn to accept Christ if believers' lives do not demonstrate the qualities God desires, including peace and holiness."

SOURCE: The Revised and Updated edition of The MacArthur Study Bible, Thomas Nelson publishers, page 1920

I agree with the above interpretation; however, MacArthur totally contradicts himself concerning his interpretation of Hebrews 12:14 in another book he has written...

“Eternal security is a great spiritual truth, but it should never be presented merely as a matter of being once saved, always saved--with no regard for what you believe or do. The writer of Hebrews 12:14 states frankly that only those who continue living holy lives will enter the Lord's presence. [emphasis added]

SOURCE: Kingdom Living Here and Now (pg. 150).

Which is it Mr. MacArthur? Those are two VERY different interpretations. The introduction to MacArthur's Revised and Updated "Study Bible" calls him a "world-class scholar." I think not! Either 1 + 1 = 3, or else 1 + 1 = 2. It can't be both. I'm tired of supporters of John MacArthur quoting places where he says 1 + 1 = 2, while ignoring other places where he clearly teaches that 1 + 1 = 3. MacArthur's hundreds of books are at best, a compilation of confusion, contradictions and bad theology. It is MacArthur's numerous contradictions, like the one I just shared with you concerning Hebrews 12:14, that naturally raise questions as to who wrote the comments in The MacArthur Study Bible. Has MacArthur revised some of his doctrines, but not said anything to anyone? If so then why is he still selling his older flawed writings, which are misleading people? I mean, either a ghostwriter wrote MacArthur's "Study Bible" or else he is just a confused individual.


Conclusion

I plead with you to throw your NKJV into the garbage pail, and The MacArthur's Bible Study as well if you own one. The best way to interpret the Bible is with the Bible. Commentaries are at best, risky, because you may be led away from the truth by bad theology if you don't know any better.

MacArthur is corrupt in his views. The very fact that Mr. MacArthur denies the efficacy (i.e., redeeming power) of the literal physical blood of Jesus is enough reason to avoid him completely. MacArthur is a cult leader, just as is R.B. Thieme, Jr. who teaches the same heresy on the blood. Pastors all across America have embraced this apostate man of sin, who dares blaspheme the holiest and most precious substance in this world—the literal liquid blood of Jesus Christ! I am going to expose anyone who says that Jesus' physical blood is worthless in and of itself. There's not a more precious, important and holy doctrine in God's Word than the redeeming power of Jesus' literal liquid blood.

Read what Revelation 1:5 states in the KJB...

"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS OWN BLOOD."

To no surprise, John MacArthur has absolutely NOTHING to say about the blood of Jesus in this Scripture. Page 1992 of The MacArthur Study Bible says nothing about the precious blood in Revelation 1:5, nothing! Don't you tell me that Mr. MacArthur is a believer! Don't you tell me that John MacArthur is a Christian! Don't you tell me that MacArthur loves the blood! No Sir!Dr. MacArthur is an IMPOSTER, AN UNSAVED MODERNIST who name the name of Christ. There are countless good things taught by unsaved Mormons, Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses; but that doesn't justify their damnable lies. MacArthur is no different. I mean, brother, If you're wrong on the blood of Jesus—you're wrong on everything!

And finally, here's some startling information that you probably didn't know about the damnable NKJV...

The NKJV removes the word "Lord" 66 times!

The NKJV removes the word God 51 times!

The NKJV removes the word "heaven" 50 times!

In just the New Testament alone the NKJV removes 2,289 words from the KJB!

The NKJV makes over 100,000 word changes!

And most changes will match the NIV, NASV, RSV, or RSV!

And Thomas Nelson Publishers have the audacity to claim in an ad for the NKJV (Moody Monthly, June 1982, back cover), "NOTHING HAS BEEN CHANGED except to make the original meaning clearer." John MacArthur, just like so many others today, have sold out to Satan for filthy lucre sake. Jesus plainly stated, "Ye cannot serve God and mammon" (Luke 16:13).

"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." —Hebrews 9:12

It's The Blood Of Jesus!

BEWARE of The MacArthur Study Bible!

John MacArthur's Lame Bible Commentary

By David J. Stewart
[/color][/b]

[url=http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/NKJB/macarthur-lame.htm]John MacArthur's Lame Bible Commentary[/url]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I personally agreee with the analysis of David Stewart, found above:

"MacArthur is an IMPOSTER, AN UNSAVED MODERNIST (IE- A LIBERAL) who name the name of Christ. There are countless good things taught by unsaved Mormons, Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses; but that doesn't justify their damnable lies. MacArthur is no different. I mean, brother, If you're wrong on the blood of Jesus—you're wrong on everything!"


Sincerely,

Walter


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi tjservant...

Thank you for including this article. I have often wondered what John MacArthur's thoughts might be about this.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Waltern...

When I saw the thread, and realized that John MacArthur had something to say about the King James Bible, I knew in advance that you would be in total agreement with him. Why is that? [b]Because you support every version other than the King James, regardless of your posts that assure us that you use it![/b]

Brother, do you realize that how ridiculous this statement is? In fact, you are straying from mere assumption...and now you are just lying.

Brother, you [u]are[/u] lying.

Does that bother you? Does it bother you that you, an avid defender of the KJV as the only "perfect" version, are actually bearing false witness against me? Does it concern you that you will give an account before God on that great day and be called into account for these sort of lies? These things won't be overlooked simply because you said them in ignorance or within the misguided limits of your own understanding. God sees everything, brother. He knows that I use the KJV alongside the NASB and NIV. Yet, you feel the boldness to say otherwise. Waltern, you are [u]lying[/u]. Not only are you lying when you point the finger and accuse me (and others) of things that are just untrue, but you also make misguided assumptions that I fear are too great for you to even realize. What a dreadful thing to consider!

Waltern, your posts make me wonder just how ready some people are to send others to Hell simply because they disagree with something that they believe to be true. You think that John MacArthur is going to Hell because you say that you agree with David Stewart's view that MacArthur "[i]is an IMPOSTER, AN UNSAVED MODERNIST (IE- A LIBERAL) who name the name of Christ[/i]." You created threads to warn everyone about how "deceived" Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel has become. You make other absolute assumptions about the spiritual conditions of many other people. You rhetorically spit upon every version of the Word of God that you reject as a result your limited "research."

Do you not realize that you will be judged with the same level of judgment that you have levied against others? Waltern, be careful, "[i]For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.[/i]" (Matthew 7:2). Yet, there seems to be no room for error within your assumptions. How could all of your "sincere and prayerful research" be wrong? The fault must lie with the "sincere and prayerful research" of everyone who disagrees with you!

Waltern, have you ever considered the possibility that you might assume too much too soon? Is it wise to publicly proclaim certain things as if there is no way that you could possibly be wrong? Not only do you now appear to rhetorically "spit" upon all non-KJV versions of the Word of God and call them "damnable," but now you even will publicly damn [u]preachers[/u] to Hell who you disagree with!

Is this what God has called you to do, Waltern?

I have asked you to plainly tell me in the past whether or not you think that the KJV is perfect. I suppose that you know that it might be something of a "loaded question," since you yourself might be aware that the KJV contains what appears to be obvious errors. Yet this can't get in the way of your belief that the KJV is the result of a supernatural promise by God to "perfectly preserve" His Word down to the last "dot and tittle" (as you have proclaimed in the past). Thus, those "errors" can't be real if the KJV is perfect down to the very last letter! Yet...they still remain in the version. So what does that do to your premise?

Waltern, you also know that the KJV was "corrected" numerous times between 1611 and 1850 until we have the version that we now use today. So, this "perfectly preserved" was a [i]work in progress[/i]? Of course, Erasmus did the same thing too. So much for a "supernatural promise" that was powerful enough for these guys to get it right the first time! I suppose that they weren't nearly as "inspired" as Erasmus claimed he was (or the KJV-only folk presume). Maybe it is, gasp, just as imperfect as the translators of the KJV admitted in their premise? Or maybe the premise that they wrote deserved to be removed just as much as their footnotes (which were forbidden) or the inclusion of the Apocrypha that they included for many years within the binding of the KJV?

Waltern, I think that you presume that you are standing upon a promise of God to preserve His Word. However, I don't think that you realize that you are standing upon something entirely different. I believe that you are standing upon a personal opinion that the KJV is the actual fulfillment of this promise. Yet, if the KJV contains even a single error, then it is not, by definition, [i]perfect[/i].

Waltern, does the KJV have even one error in it? Or are these apparent errors imaginary? Are they easily explained away as being errors in the perception of the reader? Some things, like the error found in Acts 12:4 (the translation of [i]pascua[/i] as "Easter" in the KJV) are oddly explained as though the KJV translators were the only ones who somehow got it "right" (and that the Greek word that they translated doesn't mean what the Greek word says). Yet, there are also errors of numbers. If one of these "number" errors exist...then the KJV is [i]not[/i] perfect. What does this do to the ultimate, underlying premise for your argument that the KJV is perfect?

Here are a couple of errors in the KJV...just to get you started. If one of these is an actual error, then the KJV is [u]not[/u] perfect. Of course, we can argue that it was the sources used by the translators of the KJV that was in error (obviously). However, that still breaks with your premise that the KJV is taken from a lineage of texts that are perfect down to their last "dot and tittle."

[color=990000] Samuel 8:3-4

3 David smote also Hadadezer, the son of Rehob, king of Zobah, as he went to recover his border at the river Euphrates.
4 And David took from him a thousand chariots, and [b]seven hundred horsemen[/b], and twenty thousand footmen: and David houghed all the chariot horses, but reserved of them for an hundred chariots.

1 Chronicles 18:3-4

3 And David smote Hadarezer king of Zobah unto Hamath, as he went to stablish his dominion by the river Euphrates.

4 And David took from him a thousand chariots, and [b]seven thousand horsemen[/b], and twenty thousand footmen: David also houghed all the chariot horses, but reserved of them an hundred chariots.[/color]


[color=990000]
1 Kings 4:26

26 And Solomon had [b]forty thousand stalls[/b] of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

2 Chronicles 9:25

25 And Solomon had [b]four thousand stalls[/b] for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.
[/color]


[color=990000]
2 Kings 25:8

8 And in the fifth month, [b]on the seventh day of the month[/b], which is the nineteenth year of king Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, unto Jerusalem:

Jeremiah 52:12

12 Now in the fifth month, [b]in the tenth day of the month[/b], which was the nineteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, which served the king of Babylon, into Jerusalem...[/color]

Waltern, you are free to believe as the Lord (and your conscience) guides you. However, please realize that we are doing the same. And please refrain from lying in the future.

T
TaylorOtwell

John MacArthur uses the New King James Bible, which is nothing more than a hybrid Bible, [b]that consists mainly of the minority text,[/b]

Not even close.

With care in Christ...

S
sermonindex

So here at sermon index we have many forums to discuss many topics. Now here we are in this one. Lets see whats up....ahhh the ever exciting translations debate! Sure to get lots of attention! here much energy will be expanded in point counter point, higher and lower textual critic and a healthy dose of conspiracy,(my favorite), heaped on top. hmm, hmm, good!

Sorry guy's, I couldn't resist.

As always, I am King James preffered, not KJV only.

G
ginnyrose

here much energy will be expanded in point counter point, higher and lower textual critic and a healthy dose of conspiracy,(my favorite), heaped on top. hmm, hmm, good!

And bake it in the oven of contention at 350 degrees until burnt!

ginnyrose

L
Leo_Grace


ginnyrose wrote:
here much energy will be expanded in point counter point, higher and lower textual critic and a healthy dose of conspiracy,(my favorite), heaped on top. hmm, hmm, good!

And bake it in the oven of contention at 350 degrees until burnt!

ginnyrose

Unless it is basted occasionally with the marinade of love and forbearance --then it might turn out all right, as long as the flames of hatred and stiff-neckedness are moderated. (I still haven't gotten over cooking a 20-lb turkey for 7 hours) :-)

S
sermonindex

personally i thought john macarthurs reply was excellent, probably the most thorough and truthful that i have seen. David Stewart just seems to use words out of anger and judgement. Salvation is only by Jesus Christ and God has used many ways of saving people throughout the ages.I can't believe people would condemn people like John Macarthur and Ray Comfort and Paul Washer because they disagree on something, Like Lordship salvation or teaching that you must repent of your sins, that is what David Stewart does is condemn everyone and bring judgement on them and tells people that he knows where they our going.

S
sermonindex


To ccchhhrrriiisss:

The “contradictions” found in the Bible by the Modernists are not an honest examination of the Bible, but are more like a deliberate misrepresentation of Scripture.

2 Samuel 8:4 "And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven hundred horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen: and David houghed all the chariot horses, but reserved of them for an hundred chariots."

1 Chronicles 18:4 "And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven thousand horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen: David also houghed all the chariot horses, but reserved of them an hundred chariots."

2 Samuel 8:4 says that David took 700 horsemen, while 1 Chronicles 18:4 says that David took 7,000 horsemen. The “Modernist” i.e. “Liberal” Christian finds a discrepancy, that he/she is more than happy to point out to everyone as an [b]error in God's Word.[/b]

Actually, they are wrong. The 2 verses are not in contradiction. The King James version correctly describes 1000 chariots in both 2 Samuel 8:4 and 1 Chronicles 18:4. Both verses also state that David reserved 100 chariots. As a biblicist, that believes the promises of God, and that He (Himself) would preserve His Word forever, I merely combine the information from the two verses and see that David took 700 horsemen for the chariots that he kept, but he took a total of 7000 horsemen away from the enemy King. The two (2) different numbers for the number of Chariots provide us with a consistent 7:1 horseman to chariot ratio. This is reasonable, as seven horseman could easily share the same chariot.

The same type of analysis holds true for the other "discrepancies" posted by ccchhhrrriiiss.

if the Christian looks at Scripture as the preserved, Spirit Breathed Word of God, He will approach it (God's Word) with reverence and prayer, and ask for the Holy Spirit to reveal all truth to him/her.

Sincerely,

Walter


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Waltern...
When I saw the thread, and realized that John MacArthur had something to say about the King James Bible, I knew in advance that you would be in total agreement with him. Why is that? [b]Because you support every version other than the King James, regardless of your posts that assure us that you use it![/b]

Brother, do you realize that how ridiculous this statement is? In fact, you are straying from mere assumption...and now you are just lying.

Brother, you [u]are[/u] lying.

Does that bother you? Does it bother you that you, an avid defender of the KJV as the only "perfect" version, are actually bearing false witness against me? Does it concern you that you will give an account before God on that great day and be called into account for these sort of lies? These things won't be overlooked simply because you said them in ignorance or within the misguided limits of your own understanding. God sees everything, brother. He knows that I use the KJV alongside the NASB and NIV. Yet, you feel the boldness to say otherwise. Waltern, you are [u]lying[/u]. Not only are you lying when you point the finger and accuse me (and others) of things that are just untrue, but you also make misguided assumptions that I fear are too great for you to even realize. What a dreadful thing to consider!

Waltern, your posts make me wonder just how ready some people are to send others to Hell simply because they disagree with something that they believe to be true. You think that John MacArthur is going to Hell because you say that you agree with David Stewart's view that MacArthur "[i]is an IMPOSTER, AN UNSAVED MODERNIST (IE- A LIBERAL) who name the name of Christ[/i]." You created threads to warn everyone about how "deceived" Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel has become. You make other absolute assumptions about the spiritual conditions of many other people. You rhetorically spit upon every version of the Word of God that you reject as a result your limited "research."

Do you not realize that you will be judged with the same level of judgment that you have levied against others? Waltern, be careful, "[i]For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.[/i]" (Matthew 7:2). Yet, there seems to be no room for error within your assumptions. How could all of your "sincere and prayerful research" be wrong? The fault must lie with the "sincere and prayerful research" of everyone who disagrees with you!

Waltern, have you ever considered the possibility that you might assume too much too soon? Is it wise to publicly proclaim certain things as if there is no way that you could possibly be wrong? Not only do you now appear to rhetorically "spit" upon all non-KJV versions of the Word of God and call them "damnable," but now you even will publicly damn [u]preachers[/u] to Hell who you disagree with!

Is this what God has called you to do, Waltern?

I have asked you to plainly tell me in the past whether or not you think that the KJV is perfect. I suppose that you know that it might be something of a "loaded question," since you yourself might be aware that the KJV contains what appears to be obvious errors. Yet this can't get in the way of your belief that the KJV is the result of a supernatural promise by God to "perfectly preserve" His Word down to the last "dot and tittle" (as you have proclaimed in the past). Thus, those "errors" can't be real if the KJV is perfect down to the very last letter! Yet...they still remain in the version. So what does that do to your premise?

Waltern, you also know that the KJV was "corrected" numerous times between 1611 and 1850 until we have the version that we now use today. So, this "perfectly preserved" was a [i]work in progress[/i]? Of course, Erasmus did the same thing too. So much for a "supernatural promise" that was powerful enough for these guys to get it right the first time! I suppose that they weren't nearly as "inspired" as Erasmus claimed he was (or the KJV-only folk presume). Maybe it is, gasp, just as imperfect as the translators of the KJV admitted in their premise? Or maybe the premise that they wrote deserved to be removed just as much as their footnotes (which were forbidden) or the inclusion of the Apocrypha that they included for many years within the binding of the KJV?

Waltern, I think that you presume that you are standing upon a promise of God to preserve His Word. However, I don't think that you realize that you are standing upon something entirely different. I believe that you are standing upon a personal opinion that the KJV is the actual fulfillment of this promise. Yet, if the KJV contains even a single error, then it is not, by definition, [i]perfect[/i].

Waltern, does the KJV have even one error in it? Or are these apparent errors imaginary? Are they easily explained away as being errors in the perception of the reader? Some things, like the error found in Acts 12:4 (the translation of [i]pascua[/i] as "Easter" in the KJV) are oddly explained as though the KJV translators were the only ones who somehow got it "right" (and that the Greek word that they translated doesn't mean what the Greek word says). Yet, there are also errors of numbers. If one of these "number" errors exist...then the KJV is [i]not[/i] perfect. What does this do to the ultimate, underlying premise for your argument that the KJV is perfect?

Here are a couple of errors in the KJV...just to get you started. If one of these is an actual error, then the KJV is [u]not[/u] perfect. Of course, we can argue that it was the sources used by the translators of the KJV that was in error (obviously). However, that still breaks with your premise that the KJV is taken from a lineage of texts that are perfect down to their last "dot and tittle."

[color=990000] Samuel 8:3-4

3 David smote also Hadadezer, the son of Rehob, king of Zobah, as he went to recover his border at the river Euphrates.
4 And David took from him a thousand chariots, and [b]seven hundred horsemen[/b], and twenty thousand footmen: and David houghed all the chariot horses, but reserved of them for an hundred chariots.

1 Chronicles 18:3-4

3 And David smote Hadarezer king of Zobah unto Hamath, as he went to stablish his dominion by the river Euphrates.

4 And David took from him a thousand chariots, and [b]seven thousand horsemen[/b], and twenty thousand footmen: David also houghed all the chariot horses, but reserved of them an hundred chariots.[/color]


[color=990000]
1 Kings 4:26

26 And Solomon had [b]forty thousand stalls[/b] of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

2 Chronicles 9:25

25 And Solomon had [b]four thousand stalls[/b] for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.
[/color]


[color=990000]
2 Kings 25:8

8 And in the fifth month, [b]on the seventh day of the month[/b], which is the nineteenth year of king Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, unto Jerusalem:

Jeremiah 52:12

12 Now in the fifth month, [b]in the tenth day of the month[/b], which was the nineteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, which served the king of Babylon, into Jerusalem...[/color]

Waltern, you are free to believe as the Lord (and your conscience) guides you. However, please realize that we are doing the same. And please refrain from lying in the future.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Waltern...

Okay, you have attempted to explain the first obvious discrepancy. I find your rationale faulty simply because you argue it away based upon a presumption that the KJV is perfect and completely error free (and, thus, the apparent error must simply be incorrect).

What about the other two that I showed you? These errors cannot be ignored as easily as the previous one.

[color=990000]
1 Kings 4:26

26 And Solomon had [b]forty thousand stalls[/b] of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

2 Chronicles 9:25

25 And Solomon had [b]four thousand stalls[/b] for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.
[/color]


[color=990000]
2 Kings 25:8

8 And in the fifth month, [b]on the seventh day of the month[/b], which is the nineteenth year of king Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, unto Jerusalem:

Jeremiah 52:12

12 Now in the fifth month, [b]in the tenth day of the month[/b], which was the nineteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, which served the king of Babylon, into Jerusalem...[/color]

Are you going to ignore these, explain them away as errors of perception, or are you willing to admit that the text is just conflicting? There are many other similar passages, Waltern, where the sources used for the KJV had conflicting numbers (or dates). These are not errors of perception. These are simply errors. This is a hole in the premise that the KJV is "perfect" down to the "last dot and tittle" or part of some lineage of "perfect" and "preserved" texts.

The “contradictions” found in the Bible by the Modernists are not an honest examination of the Bible, but are more like a deliberate misrepresentation of Scripture.

Waltern, will you ever be able to present your views without resorting to these types of stupid remarks? Your [i]defense[/i] is often an [i]attack[/i]. It seems like you think that you are [u]defending[/u] the KJV by [u]attacking[/u] all other versions, their translators, or those who disagree with your views. You can point your judgmental finger at anyone who doesn't agree with you and consistently accuse us of being "liberals," "modernists," or claim that we don't really read the KJV -- but the truth is that you are simply using LIES as a means to promote your particular views. Please refrain from doing this.

B
BenBrockway

TJservant -

Thank you for posting this article! It was a great read and I thought MacCarthur's arguements to be well-rounded and factually supported.

Waltern -

I continually find your judgmental posts to be distasteful, unkind, inflammatory, rude, and very unlike that of a man who loves Christ. God did not appoint you judge, nor did He appoint you as "Spokesman of the Only True Bible Version."

May the Lord, one day, soften your hardend and calloused heart.

S
sermonindex

To ccchhhrrriiiss:

1 Kings 4:26 & 2 Chronicles 9:25

Did Solomon have 40,000 stalls for his horses
(1 kings 4:26) or 4,000 stalls (2 Chronicles 9:25)?

First, it should be noted that this contradiction does not appear in the Bible of choice for ccchhhrrriiisss, the NIV. The NIV states that Soloman had 4,000 stalls in both verses. Unfortunately the NIV “translators” mistakenly state that Solomon had 12,000 horses, when in fact the oririnal Hebrew text (and all other English translations of it) state that Solomon had 12,000 horsemen. This error results in 3 horses per charriot (an unusually odd number) and three horses per stall (which seems a little crowded). Opening a lexicon we see that the King James Bible gives an accurate rendering of the Hebrew text (correctly translation the Hebrew Parash as Horsemen), and for this reason we know that this translation can be trusted in actually explaining this “contradiction”.

Lets examine the two verses:
1 Kings 4:26
And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.
2 Chronicles 9:25
And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem


I Kings 4:26 states that Solomon had forty thousand stalls [color=990000]of horses[/color] for his Chariots and twelve thousand horsemen”, while 2 Chronicles 9:25 states “Solomon had four thousand stalls for[color=990000] horses and chariots,[/color]and twelve thousand horsemen”

1 Kings 4:26 counts ONLY horses that were intended to be used “for his chariots”. On the other hand, 2 Chronicle 9:25 counts both the horses [color=990000] and chariots [/color]TOGETHER.

1 Kings 4:26 states that Solomon had 40,000 stalls of horses, mening that he had 40,000 stalls with horses in them. 2 Chronicles 9:25 counts both horses and chariots together. If each chariot stall contains within it 10 horse stalls (perhaps one stall for each horse that pulls the chariot), there there is no contradiction.

Solomon had 40,000 stalls for his horses. Soloman had 4,000 chariots (3 riders per chariot, since we know from both 1 Kings 4:26 and 2 Chronicles 9:25 that he had 12,000 horsemen) and every chariot had it’s own stall. Chariots are pulled by multiple horses- in this case 10 horses. Each chariot stall had within it 10 indivicual horse stalls- one for each horse that pulled that specific chariot.

The discrepancy in Bible Scriptue can only be found in the eye and the heart of the beholder.

Sincerely,

Walter

S
sermonindex

these "translation" cyber scrums used to grieve me....bad, but this is (sort of) making me laugh, its that absurd.

Walter, God bless you for your faithful tenacity, if thats your call from the God the Holy Ghost, but step back for one second and see the utter absurdity of arguing over whether King Solomon had 40,000 horses or 4,000 horses, suffice to say he had a lot of horses, too many in fact, because he came to rely on the size of his calvary rather the Grace and Protection of Yahweh.......so he had a lot of horses.

Due respect dear elder, you got to cool it, a secular fleshling could have a field day using this humorously turgid Scriptural argument to buttress his/or her preconcieved notion of how followers of Jesus have a discussion, or just how Christians ACT, or say or do, there are 54 guests on this forum, anonomysing surfing.

Walter, please, I'm begging you, lets just agree, Jesus is Lord, and drop this thread.


neil

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Waltern...

First, it should be noted that this contradiction does not appear in the Bible of choice for ccchhhrrriiisss, the NIV.

Can you not help yourself? I have already made myself clear, Waltern, that I use the KJV as my primary version alongside the NASB and NIV.
The NIV states...

I didn't ask for you to resort to attacking the NIV as a typical means of "defending" the KJV. I simply asked how you address some of these apparently obvious errors within the text of the KJV...and how that corresponds to the underlying premise upon which you base your theory that the KJV is the only "perfect and preserved" version of the Word of God.

This particular set of passages speaks for itself. However, I had a feeling that you would try to "explain away" what it is saying. Talk about "adding to" the Word of God! It is almost as if you are creating your very own paraphrase of this passage in order to defend a position that [url=http://www.davnet.org/kevin/pix-jpg/biblemtn.jpg]crowns the KJV version[/url] upon a throne in Heaven next to God! But, to be fair, the passage clearly states the number of STALLS that Solomon had.

[color=990000]
1 Kings 4:26

26 And Solomon had [b]forty thousand stalls[/b] of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

2 Chronicles 9:25

25 And Solomon had [b]four thousand stalls[/b] for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.
[/color]


Oddly, it seems that you have attempted to read between the lines using a predetermined prejudice that is founded upon a premise that the KJV cannot possibly be wrong or contain even one single error. Now, of course, this is taken from the current 1850 version of the KJV that fixed all of those "non-error" errors in the original 1611 version that was supposed to be "perfect" down to the last "dot and tittle." Then again, you have already stated that this is not an "honest" or "sincere" assessment at examining the conflicting numbers in this passage. But what about this passage?

[color=990000]
2 Kings 25:8

8 And in the fifth month, [b]on the seventh day of the month[/b], which is the nineteenth year of king Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, unto Jerusalem:

Jeremiah 52:12

12 Now in the fifth month, [b]in the tenth day of the month[/b], which was the nineteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, which served the king of Babylon, into Jerusalem...[/color]


How do you explain this apparent KJV error, Waltern?

This is an obvious error in the DATES that are listed. Then again, I suppose that you will find some way to paraphrase this in order to explain away the obvious error (that was probably a typo in one of the passages in the source text).

Now, why am I pointing these out? It isn't because I don't think that the KJV is a fine, scholarly effort at a translation of the Word of God into English. I fully embrace this version as a faithful attempt at translation from the sources that were used. Your premise, however, is that the KJV is PERFECT and COMPLETELY FREE FROM ERROR as you presume that it was supernaturally perfect and preserved and taken from similarly supernaturally "perfect and preserved" manuscripts (and, oddly enough, sometimes contradicted one another). However, if there is a hole in the underlying premise upon which all of your research is based, then your corresponding argument becomes somewhat moot.

What if the translators of the KJV were correct in their assessment? In their preface (and subsequent writings), these translators admitted that the KJV was a faithful attempt at translation from the sources from which it was gathered, but a less than perfect result coming from imperfect men.

N
narrowpath

What about other languages? I am German and we have similar discussions about the accuracy of translation, text origins and readability. The German language is more precise than English which makes it a good candidate to express the original meaning.
We have translations that were made so literal that they are almost unreadable because every language has different structures that make it impossible to perfectly render the original meaning;
Even the KJV is probably the most literal translation in English, but you would have to be a Greek and Hebrew scholar to be perfect.

And what about Chinese? They use hiroglyphic characters that make it even more difficult to be accurate. Their translation is based on the KJV and not on the originals. Nevertheless their are millions of faithful believers in China.

And even if you can memorize the whole bible in Hebrew and Greek and have not God's love - forget it!


S
sermonindex

To ccchhhrrriiisss:

Since you did not take the time to read my last post I will try it again. If it makes no sense to you this time, then one would have to conclude that your eyes are blinded:

To ccchhhrrriiiss:

1 Kings 4:26 & 2 Chronicles 9:25

Did Solomon have 40,000 stalls for his horses
(1 kings 4:26) or 4,000 stalls (2 Chronicles 9:25)?

First, it should be noted that this contradiction does not appear in the Bible of choice for ccchhhrrriiisss, the NIV. The NIV states that Soloman had 4,000 stalls in both verses. Unfortunately the NIV “translators” mistakenly state that Solomon had 12,000 horses, when in fact the oririnal Hebrew text (and all other English translations of it) state that Solomon had 12,000 horsemen. This error results in 3 horses per charriot (an unusually odd number) and three horses per stall (which seems a little crowded). Opening a lexicon we see that the King James Bible gives an accurate rendering of the Hebrew text (correctly translation the Hebrew Parash as Horsemen), and for this reason we know that this translation can be trusted in actually explaining this “contradiction”.

Lets examine the two verses:
1 Kings 4:26
And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.
2 Chronicles 9:25
And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem


I Kings 4:26 states that Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his Chariots and twelve thousand horsemen”, while 2 Chronicles 9:25 states “Solomon had four thousand stalls for [color=990000][b] HORSES AND CHARIOTS,and twelve thousand horsemen”

1 Kings 4:26 counts [u] ONLY horses that were intended to be used “for his chariots”. On the other hand, 2 Chronicle 9:25 counts both the horses and chariots TOGETHER.[/u]

1 Kings 4:26 states that Solomon had 40,000 stalls of horses, mening that he had 40,000 stalls with horses in them. 2 Chronicles 9:25 counts both horses and chariots together. If each chariot stall contains within it 10 horse stalls (perhaps one stall for each horse that pulls the chariot), there there is no contradiction.

Solomon had 40,000 stalls for his horses. Soloman had 4,000 chariots (3 riders per chariot, since we know from both 1 Kings 4:26 and 2 Chronicles 9:25 that he had 12,000 horsemen) and every chariot had it’s own stall. Chariots are pulled by multiple horses- in this case 10 horses. Each chariot stall had within it 10 individual horse stalls- one for each horse that pulled that specific chariot. [/color][/b]


Sincerely,

Walter


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Waltern...
First, it should be noted that this contradiction does not appear in the Bible of choice for ccchhhrrriiisss, the NIV.

Can you not help yourself? I have already made myself clear, Waltern, that I use the KJV as my primary version alongside the NASB and NIV.
The NIV states...

I didn't ask for you to resort to attacking the NIV as a typical means of "defending" the KJV. I simply asked how you address some of these apparently obvious errors within the text of the KJV...and how that corresponds to the underlying premise upon which you base your theory that the KJV is the only "perfect and preserved" version of the Word of God.

This particular set of passages speaks for itself. However, I had a feeling that you would try to "explain away" what it is saying. Talk about "adding to" the Word of God! It is almost as if you are creating your very own paraphrase of this passage in order to defend a position that [url=http://www.davnet.org/kevin/pix-jpg/biblemtn.jpg]crowns the KJV version[/url] upon a throne in Heaven next to God! But, to be fair, the passage clearly states the number of STALLS that Solomon had.

[color=990000]
1 Kings 4:26

26 And Solomon had [b]forty thousand stalls[/b] of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

2 Chronicles 9:25

25 And Solomon had [b]four thousand stalls[/b] for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.
[/color]


Oddly, it seems that you have attempted to read between the lines using a predetermined prejudice that is founded upon a premise that the KJV cannot possibly be wrong or contain even one single error. Now, of course, this is taken from the current 1850 version of the KJV that fixed all of those "non-error" errors in the original 1611 version that was supposed to be "perfect" down to the last "dot and tittle." Then again, you have already stated that this is not an "honest" or "sincere" assessment at examining the conflicting numbers in this passage. But what about this passage?
deleted

S
sermonindex

To narrowpath:

As far as other languages are concerned,[b] the source text is the only importance.[/b] As long as the source text is that from the believing Church, the Majority text, the "Received" text, then you have no problem.

The problem occurs when the source text is changed from that of the believing Church to that of the Gnostics. What text is that? The same text that was used by Westcott and Hort to create their "Revision of the New Testament" in 1881. All of the newer Bible versions rely on this corrupt text. This is also the same corrupt text that created the Catholic Bilbe.

There are only two versions. One version is from the believing Church, since the beginning, the majority text. If the Bible you are reading is from that stream of text, you are O.K. When Luther translated the Bible into German, he did not use the corrupt text, the minority text found in the Latin Catholic Bible. He used the majority text, the received text that Erasmus used in creating his translation, the same text that was used for the King James Bible. It is the Bible of the Protestant Church of the Reformation.

If the Bible you are using used the minority text, created by the gnostics, then your Bible is in error.


Sincerely,

Walter


Sincerely,

Walter


narrowpath wrote:
What about other languages? I am German and we have similar discussions about the accuracy of translation, text origins and readability. The German language is more precise than English which makes it a good candidate to express the original meaning.
We have translations that were made so literal that they are almost unreadable because every language has different structures that make it impossible to perfectly render the original meaning;
Even the KJV is probably the most literal translation in English, but you would have to be a Greek and Hebrew scholar to be perfect.

And what about Chinese? They use hiroglyphic characters that make it even more difficult to be accurate. Their translation is based on the KJV and not on the originals. Nevertheless their are millions of faithful believers in China.

And even if you can memorize the whole bible in Hebrew and Greek and have not God's love - forget it!


C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Waltern...

Since you did not take the time to read my last post I will try it again.

Another bad assumption. I did read your post...and responded accordingly.
If it makes no sense to you this time, then one would have to conclude that your eyes are blinded:

I am beginning to think that you actually believe that [u]anyone[/u] who disagrees with you and your KJV-only ideology is "blinded." Is this true?

I did read your explanation about the apparent error regarding the number of stalls that Solomon had. However, I asked you about this next apparently obvious error:

[color=990000]
2 Kings 25:8

8 And in the fifth month, [b]on the seventh day of the month[/b], which is the nineteenth year of king Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, unto Jerusalem:

Jeremiah 52:12

12 Now in the fifth month, [b]in the tenth day of the month[/b], which was the nineteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, which served the king of Babylon, into Jerusalem...[/color]


Waltern, how do you explain away this obvious error regarding dates from the KJV?

The point that I am trying to make is NOT to antagonize you and your stubborn belief that the KJV is the only perfect and preserved version of the Word of God. I am simply trying to show you, Waltern, that your underlying premise (that the KJV is the ONLY "perfect and preserved" version of the Word of God) is inherently flawed. If there is even a [u]single[/u] error, then your premise cannot be correct. Of course, we already know that there wasn't a single manuscript upon which the KJV was based. The translators carefully compared various manuscripts and texts (and even former versions) and then created what they hoped would be a faithful translation.

Oddly, the translators of the KJV didn't even try to argue what KJV-only fanatics attempt to argue. Of course, this is also true of the Textus Receptus (created by Erasmus). He used six late manuscripts that were available in that short period of time (along with the Latin Vulgate) in order to create the TR. It seems that there was NEVER a single manuscript that was "perfect and preserved" upon which Erasmus (or subsequent translators) could rely. Erasmus and the translators of the KJV used MANUSCRIPT and TEXT COMPARISON to derive what they felt to be the most accurate translation of the texts that they had.

Yet, now we are told to believe that the KJV is the resultant product from a lineage of perfect texts?

Regardless of your attacks on other versions, sources, text-types, translators, methods or manuscripts -- you have repeated a view that the KJV is the only "perfect and preserved" version of the Bible. You claim that it comes from a lineage of "perfect" source texts. You also present a view that it is "perfect" down to the last "dot and tittle." Yet how do you explain this aforementioned error regarding the day of the week between 2 Kings 25:8 and Jeremiah 52:12? If this is a real error (in either translation OR source), then the KJV is not "perfect."

Of course, we already know that it was not perfect in 1611 -- given the 160 years of corrections that were made until it arrived at the 1850 edition of the KJV that is readily available today. In fact, the translators of the KJV were all dead and gone when the version of the KJV that most people use today was finally completed! They couldn't even oversee all of the corrections! Of course, they also never claimed that their version was as "perfect" (down to the last "dot and tittle") as the KJV-only crowd tries to claim either.

I fully suspect that you will try to explain away this apparent error about the date. I also suspect that you will continue to attack other versions with false and misleading innuendo alongside wild conspiracy theories as some sort of strange "defense" of your premise that the KJV is the only "perfect and preserved" version of the Word of God. Of course, when all else fails, you then point to those who still disagree with your premise as being "liberal," "modernist," or just flat out "blind." Or, you sometimes resort to pointing the finger of "heresy" at men who disagree with you (like poor John MacArthur or even Chuck Smith).

S
sermonindex

....and I never liked your spinach puffs...never!

(someones bound to get that one.)

G
ginnyrose

(I still haven't gotten over cooking a 20-lb turkey for 7 hours)

LOL

Maybe you ought to smoke/grill it with pecan wood! Now that is some kind of yum! :-)

ginnyrose

S
sermonindex


Hi TJ,

John McArthur chose astutely for the title of his article, but the term 'Biblical position' is slightly misleading, and absolutely highlights the reason for my post, namely that whilst John McArthur states

You mention Mark 16. That text has evoked no end of critical discussion. For many, they delete it because it simply solves some of their theological hangups. [b]I know we differ on the charismatic issue and quite honestly, it would be easy for me to hide behind the cloak of textual criticism and conclude that because it's not in some of the manuscripts, that therefore, verses 9 ff. are to be deleted. The evidence is not conclusive for either side, but[/b] a good case can be made for the inclusion of Mark 16:9-20 and I myself believe that it should be included and then rightly interpreted.
it seems he is equally hiding behind the 'good case' he believes can be made for those verses to be 'rightly interpreted', as if this somehow can be done [i]without[/i] the Holy Spirit.

Now, I know he didn't [i]say[/i] that, but it is precisely because he didn't, that I'm mentioning it.

It would be so much simpler if the combatants in this discussion would debate over whether the [u]message[/u] God breathed into His prophets and preachers, was preserved.

[i]Then[/i], there just might be a sharing of [i]genuine revelation[/i] by God's Spirit, which would be of lasting benefit to us all.

If you read Chronicles and Kings, you can't help but wonder at the sheer volume of information which was passed down verbally / aurally for hundreds of years, and have every sympathy with the [i]recorders[/i], who devised their own form of words (in Hebrew, mostly), to help them remember every name and important detail, and pass it on faithfully to the next generation.

We have to assume that the men entrusted by [b]GOD[/b] with this task, completed it to [i]His[/i] satisfaction, and be grateful we have so much of it free to read and 'hear' today.

I believe there was something about the anointing upon those first translators in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries, who died to make God's word universally accessible in their home countries, which shines through the rougher translations.

It doesn't matter how one dignifies it with today's 'modern' English, every interference with the raw earthiness of God's word, removes the reader slightly further from His nature and the primitive connection we have with Him by His own design.

The message never has been for the mind primarily - although we have to fight our battles there to undo all the garbage we've been programmed to accept by our national cultures; Jesus and Paul dealt with all the major philosophies which hinder mankind today, which screen him from God's word to his [u]spirit[/u]. It is a great sorrow to God, which He Himself indicates in scripture, that some men and women will not to respond to any one of His overtures to them, and thus, they are destroyed historically within the narrative, or, will be.


I am seeing, now (more), that scripture (for us) should not be about us comprehending God, as much as it is about God apprehending us.

Any aspect of any translation which dilutes our perception of His holiness, or, of our imperative to deliver obedience to Him, is a [u]real[/u] loss of [u]real truth[/u].

S
sermonindex


[color=990000][b]From ccchhhrrriiisss to Walter showing the "discrepancy" found within the Word of God, the majority text, the King James Bible:[/color][/b]________________________________________

[b]


2 Kings 25:8

8 And in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month, which is the nineteenth year of king Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, unto Jerusalem:

Jeremiah 52:12

12 Now in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month, which was the nineteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, which served the king of Babylon, into Jerusalem...
________________________________________

[/b]

To ccchhhrrriiisss:

Again, you are approaching the Bible as a textural critic, trying to find out what is wrong with it wherever you look, with a black marker in one hand and a pair of scissors in your other hand..

My question to you, ccchhhrrriiisss is: Why, as a Bible believing Christian, do you support atheism and Islam? The atheists are behind the 101 Contradictions in the Bible, as well as the muslims. This is a muslim website, that hates Jesus Christ, that has 101 Contradictions found in the Bible, is found at islamawareeness.net

http://www.islamawareness.net/Christianity/bible_contra_101.html

I also found those same 101 Bible Contradictions on an Atheist website at:

http://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/1982180:Topic:6713

How on earth can you support those who are agaisnt Christ and His Church?

Jeremiah Chapter 52:1-27
The Destruction of Jerusalem. This message - not a prophecy - simply records details concerning- the fall and destruction of the city. The accession of Zedekiah II, and the siege dates are gone over in verses 1-6, all of which we have dealt with already. Then to the end of verse 11 the captivity of Zedekiah II is described.

Verses 12-27 record the burning of the city, the deportation of the captives, the spoiling of the Temple, and what became of the chief priest and certain others.

The exact day of the coming of Nebuzaradan, Nebuchadnezzar's captain of the guard, to burn the city differs in Jeremiah by three days from the account in II Kings 25:8. Jeremiah 52:12 gives the date as Month 5, Day 10, while II Kings is three days earlier, Month 5, Day 7 (in 586 B.C.).

A number of explanations might be offered to meet this difference, but the one that appears most reasonable is that the earlier date in Kings (Month 5, Day 7) is the day that Nebuzaradan came "unto Jerusalem," to undertake its destruction. Then that three days were consumed removing the people to send them to Babylon, at which time Jeremiah also was removed from the court of the prison to Ramah, With the rest of these captives (Jeremiah 39:9-14; 51:1; II Kings 25:8, 11).

After the three days, in Month 5 on Day 10, Nebuzar-adan came "into Jerusalem," now deserted, and supervised its complete destruction and burning. Thus it seems that the three day difference is merely the difference of his coming "unto Jerusalem" and his coming "into Jerusalem," a difference which is quite understandable.

Bible Geography & Chronology:
[url=http://nabataea.net/jeremiah.html]The Chronology of Jeremiah (and the Lachish Letters)[/url]

Ccchhhrrriiisss: My question to you still stands. Why do you, as a liberal modernist Christian find it necessary to side with the Atheists and Muslims in regards to all of the inconsistencies found in the Bible, which you yourself would refer to as “scribal errors”, when it has been proven that there are not errors, since the Work of the Historian and Bible Chronologist James Ussher in the 1600’s or the recent work of Dr. Floyd nolen Jones in his book: Chronology of the Old Testament- A Return to the Basics, published in 1993, as well as 100's of other books & papers, written by Bible Historians & Chronologists that address these 101 inconsistencies in the Bible (and hundreds more), and reveal their true meaning, as above with 2 kings 25:8 and jeremiah 52:12.

In the early 1940's, the two main English versions of the Holy Bible were the King James Version, published in 1611, and the Douay or Douay-Rheims Bible translated from the Latin Vulgate in 1582 and 1609, used by the Catholic in English-speaking countries (The Douay-Rheims contains additional books known as the Apocryphal books, intertestament books that are not considered part of the official Canon). Today we have over 100 "versions" that one can buy.

[color=990000][b][u]However, the person buying the Bible still has the same choice he had in 1940. He can either choose the very word of God, preserved by the believing Church since the beginning, the Majority Text, the Bible of the Protestant Church of the Reformation, the King James Bible OR he/she can choose any of the other 100 Bibles available, it amounts to nothing more than choosing the Catholic Bible, the Douay-Rheims Bible that was created by Gnostics. All of the newer versions were spawned from the Catholic Bible![/color][/b][/u]

Sincerely,

Walter


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Waltern...
Since you did not take the time to read my last post I will try it again.

Another bad assumption. I did read your post...and responded accordingly.
If it makes no sense to you this time, then one would have to conclude that your eyes are blinded:

I am beginning to think that you actually believe that [u]anyone[/u] who disagrees with you and your KJV-only ideology is "blinded." Is this true?

I did read your explanation about the apparent error regarding the number of stalls that Solomon had. However, I asked you about this next apparently obvious error:

[color=990000]
2 Kings 25:8

8 And in the fifth month, [b]on the seventh day of the month[/b], which is the nineteenth year of king Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, unto Jerusalem:

Jeremiah 52:12

12 Now in the fifth month, [b]in the tenth day of the month[/b], which was the nineteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, which served the king of Babylon, into Jerusalem...[/color]


Waltern, how do you explain away this obvious error regarding dates from the KJV?

The point that I am trying to make is NOT to antagonize you and your stubborn belief that the KJV is the only perfect and preserved version of the Word of God. I am simply trying to show you, Waltern, that your underlying premise (that the KJV is the ONLY "perfect and preserved" version of the Word of God) is inherently flawed. If there is even a [u]single[/u] error, then your premise cannot be correct. Of course, we already know that there wasn't a single manuscript upon which the KJV was based. The translators carefully compared various manuscripts and texts (and even former versions) and then created what they hoped would be a faithful translation.

Oddly, the translators of the KJV didn't even try to argue what KJV-only fanatics attempt to argue. Of course, this is also true of the Textus Receptus (created by Erasmus). He used six late manuscripts that were available in that short period of time (along with the Latin Vulgate) in order to create the TR. It seems that there was NEVER a single manuscript that was "perfect and preserved" upon which Erasmus (or subsequent translators) could rely. Erasmus and the translators of the KJV used MANUSCRIPT and TEXT COMPARISON to derive what they felt to be the most accurate translation of the texts that they had.

Yet, now we are told to believe that the KJV is the resultant product from a lineage of perfect texts?

Regardless of your attacks on other versions, sources, text-types, translators, methods or manuscripts -- you have repeated a view that the KJV is the only "perfect and preserved" version of the Bible. You claim that it comes from a lineage of "perfect" source texts. You also present a view that it is "perfect" down to the last "dot and tittle." Yet how do you explain this aforementioned error regarding the day of the week between 2 Kings 25:8 and Jeremiah 52:12? If this is a real error (in either translation OR source), then the KJV is not "perfect."

Of course, we already know that it was not perfect in 1611 -- given the 160 years of corrections that were made until it arrived at the 1850 edition of the KJV that is readily available today. In fact, the translators of the KJV were all dead and gone when the version of the KJV that most people use today was finally completed! They couldn't even oversee all of the corrections! Of course, they also never claimed that their version was as "perfect" (down to the last "dot and tittle") as the KJV-only crowd tries to claim either.

I fully suspect that you will try to explain away this apparent error about the date. I also suspect that you will continue to attack other versions with false and misleading innuendo alongside wild conspiracy theories as some sort of strange "defense" of your premise that the KJV is the only "perfect and preserved" version of the Word of God. Of course, when all else fails, you then point to those who still disagree with your premise as being "liberal," "modernist," or just flat out "blind." Or, you sometimes resort to pointing the finger of "heresy" at men who disagree with you (like poor John MacArthur or even Chuck Smith).

O
openairboy

Walter,

Your arguments are loaded with non sequiturs and ad homs. I know atheists and muslims that believe 2+2=4, does that mean it is wrong?

I know Catholics that believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, does that make it wrong?

Chris, keep up the good work.


C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi waltern...


Again, you are approaching the Bible as a textural critic, trying to find out what is wrong with it wherever you look, with a black marker in one hand and a pair of scissors in your other hand..
....
My question to you, ccchhhrrriiisss is: Why, as a Bible believing Christian, do you support atheism and Islam?
....
Ccchhhrrriiisss: My question to you still stands. Why do you, as a liberal modernist Christian find it necessary to side with the Atheists and Muslims in regards to all of the inconsistencies found in the Bible...

Can you not see the trouble with these sort of remarks? I am examining your premise -- the foundation for your argument -- that the KJV is "perfect and preserved." When I point out several apparent errors that are contained within the pages of the KJV, you somehow incorrectly connect this as "supporting Muslims and atheists" and then proceed to accuse me of being a "liberal" or "modernist." It is very silly.

Waltern, the point is that I find your entire foundational premise to be faulty. The KJV was not "perfect" down to the last "dot and tittle" in 1611 -- because it was corrected many times over a period of 240 years (arriving to the 1850 version of the KJV that is common today). There was no single "perfect" text used by the translators of the KJV. They sifted through every text that was available to them at the time, some of which contained conflicted writings. They made this clear in their Premise to the KJV (and in their subsequent writings). They relied heavily upon the Textus Receptus, which was also translated from six or seven late texts (including the Latin Vulgate for the Book of Revelation) rather than a single "perfect and preserved" manuscript. These manuscripts were sifted and translated into a single text by a Roman Catholic humanist from the manuscripts that were available to him within the limited time he had available. The translators of the KJV also had certain predetermined requirements for their work -- including terminology, phrasing and even the requirement to refer to the Bishop's Bible when a consensus for translation couldn't be derived. Yet you, Waltern, are under a sincere, deep belief that the KJV is PERFECT AND PRESERVED (and the only version to hold this standard)?

...all of the inconsistencies found in the Bible, which you yourself would refer to as “scribal errors”, when [b]it has been proven that there are not errors[/b], since the Work of the Historian and Bible Chronologist James Ussher in the 1600’s or the recent work of Dr. Floyd nolen Jones in his book: Chronology of the Old Testament- A Return to the Basics, published in 1993, as well as 100's of other books & papers, written by Bible Historians & Chronologists that address these 101 inconsistencies in the Bible (and hundreds more), and reveal their true meaning...
I would hardly say that these have been "proven" to not be errors. I would also ponder whether it is wise for a person to base such a definite opinion upon the research of others. It doesn't matter what Floyd Nolan Jones or James Ussher write if the underlying premise upon which KJV-only folk claim is simply incorrect. I highly suggest that you look into this matter without bias or prejudice, brother. Before you launch a defense of the KJV (which often results in an attack on other versions), look into the history of the KJV by reading the firsthand writings and life stories of those who actually translated it. Read about the various sources that they used. Read what these men believed and taught (some of whom held to "high church" heresies). Read the writings of Erasmus and his work in creating the TR (along with his crazy, fanatical beliefs about adoration and the Catholic Eucharist). Read about what he went through when gathering the texts that he used to singlehandedly create the TR. Research and find out if anyone criticized his methods or output.

I think that you might be surprised with what you find, brother.

*EDIT - In the future, please refrain from labeling me, accusing me, or putting words in my mouth. Thank you.

B
BenBrockway

Reading all of this arguing and debating over God's Word is making me hungry... (he says as he goes and reads his NIV Bible)

S
sermonindex

I should go back and post the thing I posted a couple years ago... "Call Me King James Only... But Only If..."

Most here thought it was well balanced.

I still do.

Krispy

B
BenBrockway

Krispy,

PM me with it. I'd love to read it!

God bless you brother!


- Ben

S
sermonindex

I'll have to go looking for it on here... I dont have time right now. When I get a chance I'll go search for it.

Krispy

L
Leo_Grace

Krispy and Ben,

Here's the link to that thread "Call me King James Only! But only if....". I found it easily using the google search engine.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=12785&forum=35&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0]Click here[/url]

B
BenBrockway

Thank you Leo-Grace!



Leo_Grace wrote:
Krispy and Ben,

Here's the link to that thread "Call me King James Only! But only if....". I found it easily using the google search engine.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=12785&forum=35&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0]Click here[/url]

M
Miccah

If "King James Only" defines one who believes that a person can only be saved through the King James Bible, I am not "King James Only." It is the Gospel that is the power of God unto salvation (Rom. 1:16), and even a Bible that is textually corrupt contains the Gospel.

If "King James Only" defines one who believes that the King James Bible's antiquated language is holy or who believes the KJV could never again be updated, I am not "King James Only." I doubt the KJV will ever be replaced in this apostate age, but to say that it is wrong to update the language again after the fashion of the several updates it has undergone since 1611 is not reasonable, in my estimation. Having dealt constantly with people who speak English as a 2nd or 3rd language, I am very sympathetic to the very real antiquation problem in the King James Bible. At the same time, I am not going to trade an excellent Bible with a few problems due to old language for a Bible filled with error due to a corrupt text and/or a corrupt translation methodology.

If "King James Only" defines one who believes he has the authority to call those who disagree with him silly morons, and jacklegs, and to treat them as if they were the scum of the earth because they refuse to follow his peculiar views, I am not "King James Only."


Wonderfully said in the original article.

S
sermonindex


Ccchhhrrriiisss posted to Walter:

[b] Waltern, the point is that I find your entire foundational premise to be faulty. The KJV was not "perfect" down to the last "dot and tittle" in 1611 –


because it was corrected many times over a period of 240 years (arriving to the 1850 version of the KJV that is common today). There was no single "perfect" text used by the translators of the KJV. They sifted through every text that was available to them at the time, some of which contained conflicted writings. They made this clear in their Premise to the KJV (and in their subsequent writings). They relied heavily upon the Textus Receptus, which was also translated from six or seven late texts (including the Latin Vulgate for the Book of Revelation) rather than a single "perfect and preserved" manuscript. These manuscripts were sifted and translated into a single text by a Roman Catholic humanist from the manuscripts that were available to him within the limited time he had available. The translators of the KJV also had certain predetermined requirements for their work -- including terminology, phrasing and even the requirement to refer to the Bishop's Bible when a consensus for translation couldn't be derived. Yet you, Waltern, are under a sincere, deep belief that the KJV is PERFECT AND PRESERVED (and the only version to hold this standard)?

[/b]

Ccchhhrrriiisss I ask you---Is what you have said above actually true? Does it have any validity in fact?

What follows is from the book, Which Version is the Bible by Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones. This is a long read, but well worth it. The reason? To find the truth of the matter.

WHAT ABOUT ALL THE CHANGES IN THE KING JAMES BIBLE?
It has often been asserted that the King James Bible has been revised four times in the past. This is offered as proof that no valid objection should be forthcoming to continued revision and endless new translations. The reality is that there have been several editions of the text but no revisions have been made. We shall elaborate and clarify on this important issue.

The printing press was invented in 1450 by the German Johann Gutenburg. Although this was 161 years before the 1611 KJB edition, the printing apparatus had changed very little. The type was set by hand, one character at a time. The process was quite slow, difficult and tedious, hence frequent errors resulted in all publications.

The first edition of the King James also contained such printing errors, but these were not the kind of textual alterations which freely occur in modern versions. These were obvious and simple printing oversights. The second printing published later in 1611 corrected about 100 such textual differences. Of course, such errors do not render a Bible or any other book worthless – they merely need to be removed in subsequent editions.

The first two alleged "major revisions" of the King James Bible took place within 27 years of its first edition. The 1629 edition was but a careful correction of earlier printing errors. Only nine years later, a second so-called major revision was distributed. Dr. Samuel Ward and John Bois, two of the original translators, participated in both of these undertakings. However F.H.A. Scrivener (see footnote below) describes this as merely being a reinstatement of words, phrases and clauses overlooked by the 1611 printers – thereby amending these errors. Thus, 72% of the approximately 400 textual corrections in the KJB were completed by 1638.

Hence, we find that instead of two major revisions, there were two stages of a single process – namely, the purging of early printing errors. Similarly, the last two "major revisions" were but two stages in standardizing the spelling. Very few textual corrections were necessary for these two publications (1762 and 1769). Thus, the term "four major revisions" is a misnomer, and as such, is grossly misleading.

[color=990000][b]Much is made by the detractors of the KJB claiming as many as 75,000 changes in the King James Bible since 1611. At first glance, this does seem to be a problem. However, before citing examples, the reader is enjoined to keep in mind that the real issue at hand is that of final authority. Further, the reader needs to be appraised that the original King James Bible is very different in appearance than those published today. Were one to go to a museum to view an original, he would find that he could hardly read it. Indeed, many of the words that were legible would be strangely spelled. The changes fall into three categories (1) printing changes, (2) spelling changes and (3) textual changes.

The printing type used for the original edition was Gothic. The type style or font that the reader has before him and that with which he is familiar is Roman. Although the Roman type style originated fairly early, Gothic had been the predominate form for many years in most European countries. The printers of the original King James chose the Gothic because of its beauty and eloquence. Several of the letters are noticeably different in appearance.

The Gothic "s" looks like the Roman "s" when used as a capital letter or at the end of a word, but when it occurs as a lower case "s" at the beginning or in the middle of a word, the letter looks similar to our "f". Over 30,000 changes were of this kind, as in Mofes to Moses. The Gothic "v" looks like a Roman "u" and vice versa. Now we can see why our "w" is called a "double-u" rather than "double-v". The "v" was changed to "u" 45,281 times (i.e., Dauid to David, wiues to wives, vnto to unto). The Gothic "j" looks like our "i", hence Iudah becomes Judah, iudged to judged etc. Remember, these are not spelling changes – they are simply type style changes. [u] These changes reflect a large percentage of the "thousands" of alterations in the KJB, but obviously such modifications do not corrupt or in any way harm the actual text.[/u]

As to the changes in orthography (spelling), we remind our reader that most histories date the beginning of Modern English around 1500. Hence, by 1611 the grammatical structure and basic vocabulary of present day English had already been firmly established. However, the spelling did not stabilize at the same time. In the 1600's spelling was largely phonetic as standards had not yet been established. Even among the well educated, an author would spell the same word several different ways, often in the same book and even on the same page. It was not until the eighteenth century that spelling began to be uniform. Therefore, in the last half of that century, the spelling of the 1611 KJB was standardized.

Over 30,000 additional changes involved dropping the final "e" off of the old English spellings such as – sunne to sun, fowle to fowl, goe to go, shee to she, nowe to now etc. Double vowels and double consonants were more common such as mee to me and ranne to ran. Other changes included ftarres to stars, ynough to enough, moneth to month, yeeres to years grinne to grin; flying to fleeing; neezed to sneezed etc.

These typographical and spelling changes account for almost all of the so-called "thousands" of alterations since 1611. Obviously none of them can be truly said to in any way alter the text. Thus they cannot honestly be compared with the thousands of actual textual changes which blatantly appear in the modern versions. The significance of this simply cannot be overstated.
As to the actual textual differences between the 1611 edition and our present editions, there are some variations – but they are not of the magnitude of a revision. Rather, they are merely the correction of early obvious printing errors. They are not textual changes made to alter the reading. This may be readily ascertained by (a) the character of the changes; (b) the frequency of the changes throughout the Bible; and (c) the time the changes were made.

In the first printing, words were occasionally inverted. A plural may have been in singular form or vice versa, and at times a word was mis-written for one that was similar. A few times a word or even a phrase was inadvertently omitted. The omissions were obvious and did not portray the doctrinal implications of those found in modern translations.

Dr. F.H.A. Scrivener compiled a list of the variations between the 1611 edition and later printings. A random sampling giving the first textual correction on consecutive left hand pages is depicted in the following chart.

1611 Reading---- Present Reading Corrected
1this thing/\tthis thing also\t1638
2shalt have remained/ye shall have remained 1762
3Achzib, nor Helbath, nor Aphik\tof Achzib, nor of Helbath, nor of Aphik 1762
4requite good/requite me good\t1629
5this book of the Covenant/the book of this Covenant 1629
6chief rulers/\tchief ruler\t1629
7And Parbar/\tAt Parbar\t1638
8For this cause/And for this cause 1638
9For the king had appointed/for so the king had appointed 1629
10Seek good/seek God\t1617
11The cormorant/But the cormorant 1629
12returned/ turned\t1769
13a fiery furnace/a burning fiery furnace 1638
14The crowned/\tThy crowned\t1629
15thy right doeth/thy right hand doeth\t1613
16the wayes side/the way side\t1743
17which was a Jewwhich was a Jewess\t1629
18the city/the city of the Damascenes\t1629
19now and ever/\tboth now and ever\t1638
20which was of our fathers/which was our fathers 1616


Gentle reader, in the preceding chart you have seen 5% of all the textual changes made in the King James Bible in 375 years. Only one (#10) has serious doctrinal implications. Here, the 1611 reading of Psalm 69:32 has "seek good" where the correct reading should be "seek God". But the spelling similarity of the words "good" and "God" reveal the problem to be merely that of a weary type setter's having misread the proof.

This error was so obvious that it was caught and corrected in 1617, only six years after the first printing and well before the first so-called 1629 revision. Dr. David Reagan reports (p. 11) that his examination of Scrivener's entire appendix resulted in this as being the only doctrinal variation.

Both the character and the frequency of the changes disclose them to be but printing oversights. Yet scholars, even fundamental conservatives, refer to the thousands of modifications made to the 1611 over the years as if they were on a par with the changes in recent versions. They are not. Again, the overwhelming majority is either type style or spelling changes. The few that remain are clearly corrections of printing errors made due to the tedious nature involved in the early printing process. These few printing errors serve to demonstrate that God chose to preserve the text of His Word, not by continuous miracle, but providentially.

The sample list given heretofore demonstrates how meticulously Scrivener was in compiling all the variations. Yet, even with such great care only approximately 400 variations between the 1611 edition and the modern copies could be identified and listed by him. Remember, there were c.100 variations found and corrected between the first two Oxford editions which were both printed in 1611. The average variation (after c.375 years) is but one correction every three chapters. And as we have seen, these are "chief rulers" to "chief ruler", "And Parbar" to "At Parbar" etc. The early date at which they were corrected also bears witness that they were merely corrected printing errors.

Moreover, the great majority of the 400 corrections were made within a few years of the original printing. For example, from our sampling of the twenty corrections (see p. 1), one was made in 1613, one in 1616, one in 1617, eight in 1629, five in 1638, one in 1743, two in 1762, and one in 1769. Hence, 16 out of 20 corrections, or 80%, were made within twenty-seven years of the 1611 printing. Such is hardly the long drawn out series of revisions that the scholars would have us believe. Another study detailing every other page of Scrivener's appendix revealed that 72% of the textual corrections had been made by 1638. Thus, there is no "revision" issue. As previously stated, the main purpose of the 1629 and 1638 editions was the correction of earlier printing errors. The main purpose of the 1762 and 1769 editions was the standardization of spelling.

To illustrate the import of all this, the 1638 edition of the entire book of Ecclesiastes reads exactly like our present edition. All that has changed in Ecclesiastes during the past 350 years is that the spelling has been standardized! By the time of the 1638 edition, all the printing errors in that book had been corrected and the Roman type applied.

To summarize, the character of the textual changes is that of obvious printing errors, not changes made to alter the reading. The frequency of the textual changes is meager, averaging only one every three chapters. The time frame of the textual changes is early, about three-fourths occurring within twenty seven years of the first printing. These particulars establish that there were no true revisions in the sense of updating the language or correcting translation errors. There were only editions which corrected early typographical errors.

Other such textual changes have been: saveth to "and he saveth"; to be joyful to "and to be joyful"; flix to "flux"; upon the house to "housetop"; unperfect to "imperfect"; have care to "have a care"; sometimes to "sometime"; forsomuch to "forasmuch"; such wrong to "such wrongs"; will fat to "fatten"; northwards to "northward"; cheweth cud to "the cud"; noondays to "noon day"; nor scales to "and scales"; disallow to "disallowed"; in power to "of power"; I start to "I started" etc.
Also, some later printing errors occasionally did creep in, e.g., "Printers" instead of Princes – Psa.119:161, 1701 edition; "place makers" instead of peace makers – Mat.5:9, 1807 edition; from "good" works instead of from dead works – Heb.9:14, 1807 edition, etc.

Over 5,000 of the remaining changes were in substituting periods for commas, colons for commas, semi-colons for colons and capital letters for lower case.

In stark contrast, the 36,191 changes we are supposed to accept in the new Greek texts of Nestle, Aland, and Metzger include attacks on the Deity of Christ (I Tim 3:16), the Virgin Birth (Luk.2:33), the Ascension (Luk.24:51-52), the Bible (Luk.4:4), and the Resurrection (Acts 1:3; see Ch. II). Significantly, the spelling (orthography) of Vaticanus B and Sinaiticus does not agree with that of first century Greek, yet even the tenth century Textus Receptus manuscripts do so concur. Furthermore, the King James is by far the translation easiest from which to memorize because it is written in prose. It is most difficult to memorize Scripture from any of the other translations.
As to the KJB proper, there are problems. As to the problems and how significant they are depend upon whom one asks. The solutions run a gamut of incredible differences of opinion with no consensus in sight.

The learned New Testament text critic Herman C. Hoskier claimed to know of only one serious problem. Hoskier said that the Greek word "poimna" (poimnh) should be translated "flock", not "fold", in John 10:16:
"This I consider to be the only matter of any great consequence which must be amended in any revision, but as everybody knows about this, it is not likely to mislead" (p. 697)
.
All other problems, this great scholar regarded as merely "academic".[/color][/b]

The point we have labored to clarify is that the King James Bible has not been revised, only purified. We have no valid reason to doubt that the one we hold in our hands is the very Word of God preserved for us in the English language. The authority for its veracity lies neither in the original 1611 printing nor in the character of King James VI (I), the scholarship of the 1611 translators, the literary accomplishments of Elizabethan England, nor even in the Greek Received Text. Our authority for the infallibility of the English Bible lies in the promise of God to preserve His Word.

WHY THEN ARE NEW TRANSLATIONS THOUGHT NECESSARY?

The question should be asked, "Why in 1881 (and even today) did we need a new Bible?" There are at least five reasons for this rational:
1.The many archaic words, the "eth's" as in doeth, knoweth, heareth etc., and the "thee's" and "thou's";
2.The existence of the many variant (different) readings in the extant Greek manuscripts;
3.The finding of a significant number of ancient Greek manuscripts of the Bible in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries older than those used by Erasmus and believed, by many scholars, to be closer to the text of the apostles' autographs;
4.Itching ears – winds of doctrine; and
5.Greed for Money.

We shall address each of these five, the first three being the so-called "justification" for the "need" to modernize and revise the King James Bible.

(1) Archaic Words
There are only several hundred obsolete or archaic words remaining within the 1611 King James Bible – words such as "incontinent" (lack of self control, I Cor. 7:5) and "concupisence" (unholy desires, Rom. 7:8). These few could and should be brought up to date. The "eth" endings could also easily be changed ("doeth" to "do") although care must be taken as to its rendering else many times the actual meaning may be lost. This is due to Greek verb tenses which do not exist in English. For example, often the Greek word rendered "doeth" reflects continuous action. In such cases, a simple changing to "do" would not represent a faithful translation from the Greek. The "eth" ending which allows for such meanings thus has served a vital function in the King James Bible.

With regard to "ye" (plural), "thee" (singular) and "thou" (singular) which we find dispersed throughout the 1611 Bible, it is shocking to discover the great value that these 2nd person pronouns serve. O.T. Allis informs us that these were not contemporary words even in 1611!
"It is incorrect to claim that the 'thou' represents the usage of the 1611 period when the AV was prepared and that that usage is out of date and should be rejected for that very reason. Such a claim misrepresents the facts. The AV usage is not Jacobean or 17th century English. It is biblical English. The Greek of the New Testament like the Hebrew of the Old Testament distinguishes between the singular and the plural forms of the second person. The AV makes this distinction simply because NT Greek does so, and because that is the only way to translate the Bible correctly." (author's emphasis)

The second person in English is rendered "you" in both the singular and the plural. Thus, when "you" is employed in a modern translation, one does not know if it is to be understood as singular or plural. However, "you", "ye", and "your" are always plural in the King James Bible whereas "thy", "thou", "thee" and "thine" always denote the singular – how easy.
In Luke 22:31-32, for example, the King James Bible reads:

22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you [plural! all of the apostles] ... 32 But I have prayed for thee [singular - Peter] ...
Other translations if desiring to indicate such would have to supply a footnote to convey this, and the reader might well not notice it. Another example is in Acts 13:47.
Tyndale knew of such subtleties, and he deliberately revived words that had already passed from common usage to handle faithfully the translating into English. In doing so, he actually created a special variety of English – a Bible English – for the purpose of clearly conveying the precise meaning. Tyndale thereby elevated the English usage by Scripture rather than accommodating Scripture to the English vernacular.
(2) Variant Readings
It was Luther's translation of Erasmus' Greek text into German that was the main weapon which the Holy Spirit used in bringing about the Reformation. [u] The impact of the written Word was devastating to the teachings and traditions of the Roman Church. The 16th century Reformers placed their faith in the precious truths contained in these Living Words and the battle cry "Sola Scriptura" (Scriptures alone) became, as it were, their creed and rallying point upon which they rested for final authority. God had breathed these Scriptures. Now each man could read them, and account to God for himself without the dogma and rituals of Rome. In matters of conduct and faith the Word of God was the final court of appeal – not the priest or Pope.[/u]

Indeed, as McClure rightly reminds us:
"The printing of the English bible has proved to be by far the mightest barrier ever reared to repel the advance of Popery, and to damage all the resouraces of the Papacy."
This aggressive, vigorous move by the Protestants placed Roman Catholicism on the defensive resulting in its having to rethink many issues and regroup. It was forced to define itself at the Council of Trent in 1546 A.D.
Eventually, as the Greek manuscripts came under close scrutiny by its Catholic opponents, it became clear that they differed somewhat in text and that variant readings existed. This gave the Roman Church the impetus it needed to launch a counter offensive to recapture the minds and allegiance of its own as well as those who had departed – "there are variants in your Sola Scriptura – therefore return to Sola Pope." Placed on the defensive by this assault, the 17th century Protestant church was forced into defining itself. This resulted in the doctrine of Providential Preservation of the text based upon God's many promises to preserve His Word. That which emerged from this point-counterpoint scenario was a clarification delineating the antithesis between the two positions. The defining process forced both sides to their logical conclusions.

Initially, all of the various Protestant Confessional statements (such as the Westminster, the Philadelphia etc.) containing statements concerning the preservation of Scripture were written in response to text critical problems and challenges. These creeds descriptively appealed to the consensus of history for determining the boundaries of the texts of Scripture. Two examples are the Helveticus Consensus and the Philadelphia Confession, as follows:

THE HELVETICUS CONSENSUS (1675 A.D.)
"God, the supreme Judge, not only took care to have his word, which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth, committed to writing by Moses, the prophets, and the apostles, but has also watched and cherished it with paternal care ever since it was written up to the present time, so that it could not be corrupted by craft of Satan or fraud of man."

THE PHILADELPHIA CONFESSION (Baptist - 1742 A.D.)
"The Old Testament in Hebrew and the New Testament in Greek, being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical; so in all controversies of religion, the Church is finally to appeal unto them" (taken from the 1646 Westminster Confession, I, 8 - author's emphasis)
The texts these confessions had in view as "authentical" were the Masoretic Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek Textus Receptus New Testament.

It is important that the Christian understand that the previously mentioned struggle continues behind the scenes in textual criticism today. At the same time we must keep in mind that the battle over final authority began with Lucifer's rebellion (Isaiah 14, Ezek. 28) followed by his attack on God's Word in the Garden of Eden.
Yet one may inquire, "just what is the nature of this providence, and how did it actually operate in manuscript transmission?" Some of the more important and vital canons included in the "doctrine of preservation" are:
(a) As God promised many times to preserve His Words, by faith in God's Character we trust that He has kept His word.
(b) As God used the priesthood to preserve His Word in the Old Testament, He has done likewise in New Testament times through the priesthood of born again believers.
(c) By multiplying copies to such a large number it would be impossible for anyone to corrupt them all, willfully or by negligence.
(d) The familiarity with Scripture by people from all walks of life assured that any alterations in wording would have been detected.
(e)Students (especially of Hebrew) were conscious of every letter of the texts.
(f)Unanimity exists of Old Testament readings in the Mishna, Gemara and the Talmud with the Masoretic text.
(g)Jesus accused the Jews of His day of many sins, but not once did He charge them with corrupting their copies – rather, He attested to their purity (Mat.5:17-19).
(h)The checks and balances that the Jews and Christians afforded each other would prevent corruptions.

[color=990000][b]Basically, God's method of preservation may be summed up in that there are many common readings which must and should be accepted as correct because they exist in hundreds and even in several thousand copies. This occurrence of common readings is found because God has providentially intervened in the scribal copying of Scripture, unlike the copying of non-Biblical literature.

(3) Ancient Greek Manuscripts
It is true that several thousand mss have been discovered since 1611. This is the major factor that has been used to justify to the church at large the need for a major revision of the King James. It seems logical that if a vast amount of data not available to the King James translators has been brought to life – these new materials must be considered. This especially seems reasonable as some of these mss were dated between 350-380 A.D. whereas Erasmus' five mss were from the 10th to 15th centuries. Admittedly this rhetoric seems very compelling. However, of the several thousand manuscripts discovered since 1611, the great majority (90-95%) agree with the Greek text of those five mss which Erasmus used. Nevertheless, the new translations are rife with footnotes informing the reader that "the oldest, the best manuscripts read such and such" as opposed to the King James. But is it not devastating to realize that what has been kept from the church at large is the fact that the vast majority (c.90-95%) of these more recent finds read the same as the Traditional Text which underlies the Reformers Bibles and the King James translation?

The Alexandrian manuscript ("A") arrived in London in 1627. Consequently, we often hear how unfortunate that was for the King James translators as it arrived sixteen years too late for their use. Being untrue, this serves as an example of the unreliable manner in which most of the history concerning the Authorized Version is reported. In the first place, Vaticanus B and Sinaiticus Aleph were well known not only to translators of the King James but to Erasmus. The Old Testament portion of Vaticanus was printed in 1587 so the King James translators in 1604 knew all about Vaticanus insofar as the Old Testament was concerned.

Thus the men working on the 1611 publication of the King James Bible knew the variant readings in Vaticanus B and since they knew about B, they already knew about Sinaiticus and its variant readings even though the first portion of it was not discovered until 1844 (the remainder in 1859) as the two of them read so similarly. In fact, the translators of 1611 had available all the variant readings of those vaunted manuscripts – and they rejected them! They also knew the readings of the codices of Alexandrinus A, B, C and D (the "old uncials"), where they differed from the Received Text and they denounced them all. How can this be so? The readings of those much boasted manuscripts recently made available are essentially the same as Jerome's Latin Vulgate which finds its foundation in the works of Origen. The Reformers knew all about the variant readings of the Vulgate and they rejected them which is the same thing as rejecting Origen. In rejecting Origen, they rejected Codex Vaticanus as it was copied from his work. Thus, the Reformers had all the material necessary for the task at their disposal.

As to the oft heard claim that since much of the newly discovered material was older than that used by Erasmus and subsequently the Reformers, they were more reliable, the reader is reminded that the mighty Apostle Paul testified to the corruption of the Word in his day. Hence "oldest" is not necessarily the best. This point will be more thoroughly dealt with later in our exposé (pp. 1 ff.).

Furthermore, Erasmus was in regular correspondence with Professor Paulus Bombasius, the Papal librarian, who sent him any variant readings which he desired. In fact, in 1533, a correspondent of Erasmus (a Catholic priest named Juan Sepulveda) sent Erasmus 365 selected readings from Vaticanus B as proof of its superiority to the Textus Receptus. He offered to make the entire document available to Erasmus for use in his latest edition of the TR. However, Erasmus rejected the readings of the Vatican manuscript because he considered from the massive evidence of his day that the Textus Receptus data was correct. Thus Erasmus knew about Vaticanus nearly one hundred years before the King James Bible ever saw the light of day![/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Waltern...

I don't think that Dr. Floyd Nolen holds a monopoly on truth in this matter. He is merely a secondhand source who holds his own views of the matter. I have asked you many questions, but you never seem to answer them.

However, I do detect that you are continuing to defend the KJV as a "perfect and preserved" text...down to the last "dot and tittle." Well, even from your own defense here (or, perhaps more correctly, someone ELSE's defense), there were plenty of mistakes with "dots and tittles" in the original 1611 edition. Not all of them were mere typos, either. I'm not sure if it was you or another KJV-only guy who used to often post on SI, but I actually included some photo images of first edition 1611 KJV pages in order to show a few of these changes. Of course, these errors were not intentional. Yet, they still hold great merit on the premise that the KJV was a "perfect" translation down to the last "dot and tittle." Ironically, not even the translators of the version themselves believed that!

Earlier, I presented several examples of apparent errors that are contained within the text of the KJV. You have tried to argue them away (rather unsuccessfully, I might add) while also accusing me of "siding with Muslims and atheists" (a very silly, dishonest and downright ridiculous remark). I was thinking about including several more -- simply to show you that your "defense" is based upon a predetermined belief that the fault cannot lie with the KJV (or its sources). Thus, you will somehow stretch yourself to find a far-out "solution" for any apparent error in the text.

I suppose that, with this sort of motivation, you could argue away every single error. I have even seen people try to argue that the inclusion of the pagan word "Easter" in Acts 12:4 of the KJV was intentional...and that the translators of the KJV were "the only ones who got it right" (when the Greek word "pascua" is undeniably translated as "Passover" in EVERY other instance in both the KJV AND in history).

Like I said, I suggest that you might want to perform more research into this, Waltern. This time, however, I highly suggest that you avoid the KJV-only books at first. Gather as many firsthand sources as you possibly can, and then consult those biased sources only after you have exhausted your research otherwise.

*BTW, I would hope that you would treat the translators of other text sources as kindly and with as much grace as you do Erasmus.

B
BenBrockway

Waltern,

Why do you continue to beat a dead horse? There is nothing left of this horse, you have beat it so much. Why not leave it alone?

As hard as you try, you are wasting your's and our time. Your arguements just will not convince us.

I could argue all of your points, too. After all, the KJV was not the original text. The manuscripts were. So if we are going to argue authenticity, then each and every single person on this planet should be reading and speaking the Greek and Hebrew language.

So, enough Waltern. Enough with beating an already pulverized dead horse.

In Christ,
Ben

S
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ccchhhrrriiisss: When you were in College, did you ever do any research in the process of turning in an assignment or term paper? If so, then you know that all of the sources that you used to prove your position/research had to be listed in the footnote section of your work.

Of course Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones is not the only one who has anything to say about this issue. Dr. Jones book is supported by the investigation of others, going back as far as 1850 for this section of the book (that I posted)

The following are others, that are all footnotes to the information that Dr. Jones offered in my most recent post. Please note these footnotes date back to 1850, 1854, 1858, 1884, 1894, 1930, 1958, 1961, 1987, etc.

Alexander W. McClure, The Translators Revived, (Litchfield, MI: Marantha Bible Society, 1858), p. 57.

Alexander W. McClure, The Translators Revived, (Litchfield, MI: Marantha Bible Society, 1858 pp. 58-59.

Of the 47, 4 were college presidents, 6 were bishops, 5 were deans, 39 had master’s degrees, 30 held doctorates, 41 were university professors, and 13 in Hebrew as well as 10 in Greek were skilled to a rarely attained extraordinary magnitude: Eldred Thomas, Bible Versions, (Dallas, TX: Research Educational Foundation, Inc., 1978), p. 12.

McClure, The Translators Revived, op. cit., pp. 63-64.
\t
McClure, The Translators Revived, op. cit., ., pp. 66 & 69.
\t
Ibid., p. 67.

Sir Frederick Kenyon, Our Bible and the Ancient Manuscripts, 5th ed. (London: Eyre & Spottiswoode, 1958), p. 306.

Much of that which follows has been adapted from The King James Version of 1611, The Myth of Early Revisions, David F. Reagan, Pastor of Trinity Baptist Temple, Knoxville, TN. Also see McClure, The Translators Revived, op. cit., p. 194 (Bois read the entire Hebrew O.T. at age 5 and wrote Hebrew at 6, p. 200). Dr. Reagan utilized data from F.H.A. Scrivener's The Authorized Edition of the English Bible (1611), 1884. Dr. Scrivener was a conservative and godly member of the 1881 Revision Committee (see page 1).

Oswald T. Allis, The New English Bible, The New Testament of 1961, A Comparative Study. (n.p., 1963), p. 69. Dr. E.F. Hills concurs (The King James Version Defended, op. cit., p. 218).

Jacob Van Bruggen, The Future of the Bible, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, 1978), pp. 48-49. Also see: T.P. Letis, The Majority Text: Essays and Reviews in the Continuing Debate, (Grand Rapids, MI: Institute for Biblical Textual Studies, 1987), pp. 84-104.

Theodore P. Letis, The Majority Text: Essays and Reviews in the Continuing Debate, (Grand Rapids, MI: Institute for Biblical Textual Studies, 1987), pp. 145-190. This author is indebted to Dr. Letis' fine research for the material under this subtitle.

McClure, The Translators Revived, op. cit., p. 71.

Letis, The Majority Text: Essays and Reviews in the Continuing Debate, op cit., p. 147 ff.

Letis, The Majority Text: Essays and Reviews in the Continuing Debate, op cit p.173 ff.

John Owen, "Of the Integrity and Purity of the Hebrew and Greek Text of the Scripture", The Works of John Owen, Vol. XVI, ed. by William H. Goold, (Edinburgh, Scotland: The Banner of Truth, 1968; rpt. of 1850-53 ed.), pp. 356-358.

Benjamin C. Wilkinson, Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, (Washington, DC: n.p., 1930), pp. 78-83.
A 4th century uncial MSS closely akin to Vaticanus (see p. 1).

Wilkinson, Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, op. cit., pp. 81-83; completed around A.D. 405, Jerome's Vulgate contains a revision of the Latin New Testament.

Ibid., pp. 83-85; also Hills, The King James Version Defended, op. cit., pp. 198-199.

Samuel Prideaux Tregelles, An Account of the Printed Text of the Greek New Testament with Remarks on Its Revision upon Critical Principal Together with a Collation of Critical Texts, (London: Samuel Bagster and Sons, 1854), p. 22

Marvin R. Vincent, A History of the Textual Criticism of the New Testament, (New York: MacMillian, 1899), p. 53; F.H.A. Scrivener, A Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament, 4th ed., ed. Edward Miller, 2 Vols., (London: George Bell and Sons, 1894), Vol I, p. 109.

Letis, The Majority Text: Essays and Reviews in the Continuing Debate, op. cit., pp. 76-77.

McClure, The Translators Revived, op. cit., pp. 63-64. Writing in 1858 regarding the capability of the 1611 translators, McClure notes that the work was undertaken at a most auspicious period of history. Not only had the English language ripened to its full glory, the study of Greek, Oriental tongues, and of rabbinical lore had crested to a greater extent in England than ever before or since. By the good Providence of God, the study in these disciplines has never been so highly cultivated among English speaking scholars as it was in that day. These studies had captured the imagination of that generation's young schoolmen much as that of the computer among today's youth. As a result, their level of acumen was such that, despite the proud boasting in this day, all the colleges of Great Britain and America combined could not bring together "the same number of divines equally qualified by learning and piety" for such an undertaking.

Francis R. Steele, Translation or Paraphrase, (St. Louis, MO: Bible Memory Association International, 1960), pp. 2-4. Among the various positions in which Dr. Steele has functioned are those of Assistant Professor of Assyriology at the University off Pennsylvania from 1947-53 and Assistant Curator of the Babylonian Section of the University Museum. Twice he was annual professor of the Baghdad School of American Schools of Oriental Research and for many years since he has served as the Home Secretary of the North Africa Mission. This article was first carried in the September 26, 1960 issue of the magazine Christianity Today.

Francis R. Steele, Translation or Paraphrase, (St. Louis, MO: Bible Memory Association International, 1960), p. 6.

Francis R. Steele, Translation or Paraphrase, op. cit., p 7.

Francis R. Steele, Translation or Paraphrase, op. cit p. 7-8.

Francis R. Steele, Translation or Paraphrase, op. cit Ibid., p. 4.

Tindale's Triumph, John Rogers' Monument, The New Testament of the Matthew's Bible 1537 A.D., John Wesley Sawyer, ed., (Milford, OH: John the Baptist Printing Ministry, 1989), p. iv; from the forward written by Dr. Theodore P. Letis.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


[color=990000][b]In Conclusion, ccchhhrrriiisss---I know that all of the above research, proving the position of Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones, that I previously posted will mean absolutely nothing to you. In fact, you will not even take the time to inspect it and study it for yourself, and then come forward and prove that it is correct or in error.


Why is that?

Your only response will be more of your own opinions and accusations and inunendo.[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Waltern...

I don't think that Dr. Floyd Nolen holds a monopoly on truth in this matter. He is merely a secondhand source who holds his own views of the matter. I have asked you many questions, but you never seem to answer them.

DELETED

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Waltern...

Yes, I have written plenty of research papers, theses and even a dissertation for college. And, yes, I also had to properly cite the sources that were used in my research. Yet this is not enough! My list wasn't just meant to fulfill a requirement to include a list or sources. In fact, real research isn't merely based upon gathering sources and reading them and repeating what they say. Rather, my professors and committees validated my research by checking the validity and credibility of the sources that were used!

If I would have used an improper, inaccurate or questionable source for a thesis or dissertation, my professors would have immediately pointed this out. It would not have passed academic or scholarly peer-reviewed scrutiny.

I think that you might need to remember this when considering the "sources" that you use. Are they biased, secondhand sources? Or are they firsthand sources? You can gather a list of KJV-only "sources" that is 10 pages long, but it doesn't mean that any of those citations are credible or accurate.

Of course, you turned my suggestion around (to research this without predetermined bias) and then attempted to shove it back to me. However, I can assure you that I have researched this matter thoroughly and with complete integrity.

Waltern, believe it or not, if I had found some great conspiracy or overwhelming evidence that would validate the KJV as the only "perfect and preserved" version of the Word of God, I would spread that view! If I would have found some sort of overwhelming evidence that caused me to believe that the Textus Receptus was an unquestionably and supernaturally perfect translation of the New Testament, I would let you know! There was no "bias" in my mind or heart before I began studying this issue. I know that might be hard to believe -- especially in the mind of a person who may have spent a great part of his life thinking as you do.

Waltern, in the past, you seem to have relied upon secondhand sources to either formulate or validate your opinions. This isn't only true within your attempt to crown the KJV as the only "perfect and preserved" version of the Word of God, but in your attempt to discredit any other version. I fear that you might have relied almost entirely upon secondhand sources to formulate such opinions. That is why I asked you many times whether or not you have made efforts to contact translators BEFORE you spread the things that you had heard or read.

Ultimately, I am highly convinced that the KJV is NOT "perfect and preserved" down to the "last dot and tittle" (as you have claimed). I embrace and cherish the KJV (don't tell me otherwise when I know this to be true), but I realize that it is a translation made by the efforts of man. It had errors in it in 1611. It still has errors in it today. Some of those errors are due to the fact that they were contained within the sources that were used by the translators. But, I am quite convinced that there is at least one single error within the pages of the KJV. If this is correct, then your underlying premise for which all of your "research" has been based is intrinsically flawed.

Again, I would suggest that you refrain from making such bold declarations about the KJV (and every other version) if there is even a hint of doubt that what you are claiming is absolutely true. We will all give an account to God for what we are saying. It would be terrible to one day realize that we were actually bearing false witness about an issue that was so important.

S
sermonindex


Then, it is as I said it would be in my previous post:

"[color=990000][b]In Conclusion, ccchhhrrriiisss---I know that all of the above research, proving the position of Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones, that I previously posted will mean absolutely nothing to you. In fact, you will not even take the time to inspect it and study it for yourself, and then come forward and prove that it is correct or in error.


Why is that?

[size=medium]Your only response will be more of your own opinions and accusations and inunendo.
[/size][/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Waltern...

Yes, I have written plenty of research papers, theses and even a dissertation for college. And, yes, I also had to properly cite the sources that were used in my research. Yet this is not enough! My list wasn't just meant to fulfill a requirement to include a list or sources. In fact, real research isn't merely based upon gathering sources and reading them and repeating what they say. Rather, my professors and committees validated my research by checking the validity and credibility of the sources that were used!


deleted

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Waltern...

Then, it is as I said it would be in my previous post:

"In Conclusion, ccchhhrrriiisss---I know that all of the above research, proving the position of Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones, that I previously posted will mean absolutely nothing to you. In fact, you will not even take the time to inspect it and study it for yourself, and then come forward and prove that it is correct or in error.

Huh?

You didn't provide "research" (let alone any research that proves your claims). Rather, you simply included a works cited list...of work that was not included...of biased, secondhand "sources that simply validate your own biased opinion.

Waltern, I would hope that you don't base your opinion upon those few sources that you listed. Yet, I don't think that I have EVER seen you include a first hand source in any of your posts.

Your only response will be more of your own opinions and accusations and inunendo.

Are you talking about [i]your[/i] posts? They simply REEK of opinions, accusations and innuendo and, well, no real evidence.

:-(

S
sermonindex

ccchhhrrriiisss previously posted to Walter:

[b]........ I have even seen people try to argue that the inclusion of the pagan word "Easter" in Acts 12:4 of the KJV was intentional...and that the translators of the KJV were "the only ones who got it right" (when the Greek word "pascua" is undeniably translated as "Passover" in EVERY other instance in both the KJV AND in history). [/b]

[color=990000][b]Walters response, again, to ccchhhrrriiisss (most people understood this when I posted this some time ago, however ccchhhrrriiisss could not)

Is there a difference in Bible Versions?

Many critics of the King James Bible point to Acts 12:1-4 to prove that the King James is a mistranslation. The King James indicates that Peter was to be kept in prison until after "Easter". All of the newer Bible versions (that rely on the Minority text), as well as the other versions of the Majority Text from the Believing Church (that are not the King James Bible) use the word "Passover" instead. ONLY THE KING JAMES TRANSLATORS UNDERSTOOD THE “FEASTS OF THE LORD”, THAT WERE COMMANDED BY GOD TO BE CELEBRATED ON SPECIFIC DAYS, IN SPECIFIC MONTHS, FOREVER, THAT CAN BE FOUND IN THE BOOK OF LEVITICUS AND NUMBERS.

Is this change in the King James from Passover (found in all other versions) to Easter Biblically sound? What does the Bible itself have to say about Passover and the feast of unleavened bread?

What Was Easter Originally? The word " Easter" is found one time in the entire authorized King James Bible:

Acts 12:1-7 (KJV)
"Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church. And he killed James the brother of John with the sword. And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.) And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people."

So here we have a situation in Acts chapter 12. Herod had just beheaded James, it made the Jews happy. Now Herod wanted to kill Peter also, but he wanted to wait until after "Easter" according to the King James Bible. All other Bible versions, including the NIV bible has the word "Passover" instead of "Easter."

Scripture from the King James Bible proves that "Easter" is in fact, the proper word to use, and really the only word that can be used.

The word "Easter" here, does NOT refer to "Easter" as we know it today, nor does it refer to the word " Passover" as it is wrongly translated in all newer Bible versions.

Though many Christians celebrate "Easter" in remembrance of the resurrection, Easter was originally a pagan festival (etymology of your dictionary should confirm this), which is what Acts 12:4 refers to and not the Passover. We can determine this by looking at the passage.

The Webster's New World Dictionary gives the following etymology (origin and development of a word), for the word "Easter":

originally, name of pagan vernal [spring time] festival ALMOST COINCIDENT in date with paschal [Passover] festival of the church,

--Eastre, dawn goddess --Austro, dawn

In other words, Easter was originally a pagan festival celebrated in the spring time.

"Easter" is Only Translated Correctly in the King James Bible

The word, "Easter" has been incorrectly translated "Passover" in ALL Bible versions except for the authorized King James Bible.

How do we know this? The Bible proves it (the Bible is always its own prooftext). Notice again in the passage of Acts 12:1-4, King Herod killed James. When he saw that it pleased the Jews, he also took Peter. Notice that Herod took Peter DURING the DAYS OF UNLEAVENED BREAD and was going to bring him forth to the people AFTER Easter.

"In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread." (Leviticus 23:5,6)

So we learn from this Scripture that the day of Passover fell on the 14th day of the first month, and then the "FEAST of UNLEAVENED BREAD" began upon the 15th day of the first month.

The days of unleavened bread came AFTER Passover! Acts 12:3 tells us that Peter was apprehended DURING the "days of unleavened bread." This means that the day of Passover had ALREADY occurred. "Easter" could not have been Passover, because Passover occurred BEFORE the days of unleavened bread. Passover had come and gone. Herod decided to bring Peter forth AFTER Easter. This is the sequence:

1. PASSOVER

2. DAYS OF UNLEAVENED BREAD

3. EASTER


Let's look at it from the book of Numbers as well:

Passover only comes once a year on one day, the 14th of Abib ( Num 28:16). After the Passover comes the days of unleavened bread (Numbers 28:17), extending from the fifteenth day through the twenty first day of Abib. So when Peter was arrested during the days of unleavened bread (Acts 12:3), Passover had come and gone! The Bible says that Herod was going to bring him forth AFTER Easter ( which had not come yet).

When the King James Bible says " EASTER" in Acts 12:4, it is correct; when the other versions say " PASSOVER" in Acts 12:4, they are incorrect. " Easter" in this passage is referring to a pagan festival (remember the etymology teaches that the pagan " Easter" is almost coincident with paschal (Passover)...

In conclusion, I do not expect you ccchhhrrriiisss to understand any of the above, You did not understand it in the past, and I am sure that you will not be able to do so now.

Sincerely,

Walter [/color][/b]



ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Waltern...

I don't think that Dr. Floyd Nolen holds a monopoly on truth in this matter. He is merely a secondhand source who holds his own views of the matter. I have asked you many questions, but you never seem to answer them.

DELETED

I suppose that, with this sort of motivation, you could argue away every single error. I have even seen people try to argue that the inclusion of the pagan word "Easter" in Acts 12:4 of the KJV was intentional...and that the translators of the KJV were "the only ones who got it right" (when the Greek word "pascua" is undeniably translated as "Passover" in EVERY other instance in both the KJV AND in history).

Like I said, I suggest that you might want to perform more research into this, Waltern. This time, however, I highly suggest that you avoid the KJV-only books at first. Gather as many firsthand sources as you possibly can, and then consult those biased sources only after you have exhausted your research otherwise.

*BTW, I would hope that you would treat the translators of other text sources as kindly and with as much grace as you do Erasmus.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi waltern...


Walters response, again to ccchhhrrriiisss (most people understood this when I posted this some time ago, however ccchhhrrriiisss could not)
....
In conclusion, I do not expect you ccchhhrrriiisss to understand any of the above, You did not understand it in the past, and I am sure that you will not be able to do so now.

Oh, I [i]understand[/i] what you wrote, Walter. I just don't [i]believe[/i] what you wrote is true. Does that clarify it for you?

I think that this Acts 12:4 explanation is merely a desperate attempt to explain what is an obvious error in translation. The word "pascua" in the Greek text is NOT the same word as "Easter."

BTW, could you please refrain from taking "cheap shots" at me by pretending that you can read my thoughts or know what I am thinking (or my ability or willingness to understand)? I've asked you quite nicely many times already. You don't have to vilify me simply because I disagree with your views. It might even make the discussion much more fruitful.

S
sermonindex

To ccchhhrrriiisss:

Today, the heathen, the Bible Hater, the Atheist, the Muslim, the Seminary professor says to the Christian believer---“have you heard, the entire Bible is full of discrepancies and error, and is all wrong.”

The Christian of today responds by saying nothing, and shirking away.

What is the problem with the Christian today? None of us know the Books of the Bible by memory, and when we hear the blasphmey above,[b] we hide under a rock instead of defending God’s Innerant Word.

We seemingly have no knowledge that all of these "discrepancies", so called, were answered in the early 1600's. Why are these books that address this issue, books on Bible Chronology, not used in our Christian Bible Colleges today?[/b]

We all have an enemy--when we look at Ephesians Chapter 6:12 we find that beleivers all have the same enemy:

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”(Ephesians 6:12)

What is the weapon of the believer?

Ephesians 12:17. And take the helmet of salvation, and[b] the sword of the Spirit[/b], [color=990000]which is the word of God:[/color]

[color=990000]The Word of God and the Holy Spirit all work together for the believer of Jesus Christ. One without the other is like going to battle half dressed.[/color]

[b]Jesus Christ told us in John 17:17-19 that we are sanctified by the word of God[/b]
17. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

[b]In Romans 15:16 we are told that we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost):
“............................being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.”[/b]

[color=990000]We need both- to be filled with the His Spirit, and to be filled with His Word.[/color]


[color=990000][b]If you would like a book that goes into minute detail about the “non-discrepancies” , that are continually pointed out as "discrepancies" by the atheists, the Muslims, and "Christian" Seminary Professors, then order the Book- "Chronology of the Old Testament- A Return to the Basics" by Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones


To view the first 100 pages of this book, go to the following link. (You can also purchase it here as well):[/color][/b]

[url=http://books.google.com/books?id=ZkBasQYRy4sC&dq=chronology+of+the+old+testament&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=c9AbS4atNY3ysgPSjeT2Bw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false]Chronology of the Old Testament- A Return to the Basics by Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones[/url]


[color=990000]What follows are 6 FREE MP3’s that you can listen to online, or download. They are from the series “Back to the Word” by Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones, that goes into detail about some of these "non-discrepancies":[/color]

[url=http://www.floydnolenjones.com/Floyd_Nolen_Jones_2/Back_to_THE_Word.html]Back to the Word[/url]

You can listen to this teaching online, or download it to your own computer or IPOD.


God bless,

Walter


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi waltern...

Walters response, again to ccchhhrrriiisss (most people understood this when I posted this some time ago, however ccchhhrrriiisss could not)
....
In conclusion, I do not expect you ccchhhrrriiisss to understand any of the above, You did not understand it in the past, and I am sure that you will not be able to do so now.

Oh, I [i]understand[/i] what you wrote, Walter. I just don't [i]believe[/i] what you wrote is true. Does that clarify it for you?

I think that this Acts 12:4 explanation is merely a desperate attempt to explain what is an obvious error in translation. The word "pascua" in the Greek text is NOT the same word as "Easter."

BTW, could you please refrain from taking "cheap shots" at me by pretending that you can read my thoughts or know what I am thinking (or my ability or willingness to understand)? I've asked you quite nicely many times already. You don't have to vilify me simply because I disagree with your views. It might even make the discussion much more fruitful.

[b]Ultimately, I am highly convinced that the KJV is NOT "perfect and preserved" down to the "last dot and tittle" (as you have claimed). I embrace and cherish the KJV (don't tell me otherwise when I know this to be true), but I realize that it is a translation made by the efforts of man. It had errors in it in 1611. It still has errors in it today. Some of those errors are due to the fact that they were contained within the sources that were used by the translators. But, I am quite convinced that there is at least one single error within the pages of the KJV. If this is correct, then your underlying premise for which all of your "research" has been based is intrinsically flawed.
[/b]


S
sermonindex

Hey brother Waltern have you read the gospels and how God haS allowed the gospel writers to write in whatever description they wanted to explain what Jesus said or did and in each of the gospels for an example in luke and matthew they speak of the same things many times on the sermon on the mount but if you look at the text their not exactly the same word for word but they our basically saying the same thing in meaning and this happens throughout many of the gospels. They were not word for word but giving the overall meaning and you compare also when john the baptist speaks how unworthy he is to undo the shoes of christ and other times he says sandals and puts a different way. So i am not trying to say their our contradictions but that the other versions our simply doing the same thing in many instances, so if the gospel writers could do it why can't they translate the meaning behind the words. But hey i also want to say that may we all speak in love and truth on this site and not give rude comments back to one another, you want to speak the truth do it with a spirit of meekness and love. I say this in peace in our lord Jesus Christ.

S
sermonindex

To bible4life:

What we have in the Gospels are the accounts of 4 witnesses. However, when we put all 4 of the accoutns together, we see the full story, the big picture. It is called the "Harmony" of the Gospels.


In one of the Gospels we get the geneology of Jesus through the bloodline of Mary. In another, we receive the geneology of Jesus through the bloodline of Joseph.

Only God could do such a thing. All of these men were indeed inspired by the Holy Spirit, but they were all either eye witnesses, or had the testimony of an eye witness.

That is an entirely different situation than what we have today, with Christians that are willing to cut and paste the words that they find in the Bible to correspond to the "spirit" that talks to them. Origen believed that he had the Holy Spirit within him, and that is what gave him the authority to cut and paste God's Spirit Breathed Word to correspond with his godless belief in Gnosticism.


Today, we have God's Spirit breathed Word from the believing Church. We have no need to change it to suit whatever "spirit" it is that tells us it is wrong, and that it needs to be changed. If we hear that type of "spirit" talking to us, we know that it is not the Holy Spirit from God, but a demonic spirit from Satan.

God has promised us that He would preserve His Word forever!!!!!!!!!!!!


I believe in the power of God to do what He says He can do. Do you believe God?

Sincerely,

Walter


bible4life wrote:
Hey brother Waltern have you read the gospels and how God haS allowed the gospel writers to write in whatever description they wanted to explain what Jesus said or did and in each of the gospels for an example in luke and matthew they speak of the same things many times on the sermon on the mount but if you look at the text their not exactly the same word for word but they our basically saying the same thing in meaning and this happens throughout many of the gospels. They were not word for word but giving the overall meaning and you compare also when john the baptist speaks how unworthy he is to undo the shoes of christ and other times he says sandals and puts a different way. So i am not trying to say their our contradictions but that the other versions our simply doing the same thing in many instances, so if the gospel writers could do it why can't they translate the meaning behind the words. But hey i also want to say that may we all speak in love and truth on this site and not give rude comments back to one another, you want to speak the truth do it with a spirit of meekness and love. I say this in peace in our lord Jesus Christ.

J
jimp

hi, our relationship with Jesus and each other are the prime interests in our lives. we all realize that none of us know all things but we answer all questions. be kind one to another and be humble enough to prefer one another. len ravenhill told me not to believe what he or anyone else had to say ...but to check it out with the word. let God straighten out the questions that separate and hinder us.now is the the time to show the world genuine humility and love and compassion and unity...jimp i will not know anything among you save for Jesus Christ and Him crucified...

L
Leo_Grace


jimp wrote:
hi, our relationship with Jesus and each other are the prime interests in our lives. we all realize that none of us know all things but we answer all questions. be kind one to another and be humble enough to prefer one another. len ravenhill told me not to believe what he or anyone else had to say ...but to check it out with the word. let God straighten out the questions that separate and hinder us.now is the the time to show the world genuine humility and love and compassion and unity...jimp i will not know anything among you save for Jesus Christ and Him crucified...

Amen! Well said, jimp.

K
Koheleth

Some thoughts for Waltern.

Today, the heathen, the Bible Hater, the Atheist, the Muslim, the Seminary professor says to the Christian believer---“have you heard, the entire Bible is full of discrepancies and error, and is all wrong.” The Christian of today responds by saying nothing, and shirking away.

I have never met or heard of such Christians. Those I fellowship with do not say nothing, so do you have any valid basis for this statement?

Scripture from the King James Bible proves that "Easter" is in fact, the proper word to use, and really the only word that can be used. The word "Easter" here, does NOT refer to "Easter" as we know it today, nor does it refer to the word " Passover" as it is wrongly translated in all newer Bible versions.

A valid thought, but misinformed. It would mean that the KJV translators had special revelation that no Christians in any other age have had before or since. In fact, it would mean they had knowledge that the author of Acts did not have, since the author did not use the Greek word for Easter.

1. PASSOVER 2. DAYS OF UNLEAVENED BREAD 3. EASTER

You are mistaken. The Greek word translated Easter by the KJV is "pascha" or Passover. Saying "after Passover" while the Days of Unleavened Bread were taking place only acknowledges the fact that Jews have historically used Passover to mean the entire week. Also, no other historical document has ever used the Greek word "Passover" (pascha) to refer to Easter. They are entirely different days of observance with very different meanings, cultures, and histories.

Take care.

S
sermonindex

To Koheleth:

In regards to your post, i will respond to one item in your post at a time. My first response is you misconception about Pascha, or Passover, and not Easter.

My post was:

[b]Scripture from the King James Bible proves that "Easter" is in fact, the proper word to use, and really the only word that can be used. The word "Easter" here, does NOT refer to "Easter" as we know it today, nor does it refer to the word " Passover" as it is wrongly translated in all newer Bible versions.
[/b]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your response to my post:

[b]

A valid thought, but misinformed. It would mean that the KJV translators had special revelation that no Christians in any other age have had before or since. In fact, it would mean they had knowledge that the author of Acts did not have, since the author did not use the Greek word for Easter.

[/b]

My response to your post:

[color=990000][b]You may be surprised to know that the word "passover" did not even exist before William Tyndale coined it for his Version of 1526-31. His was also the first English Bible to use "Easter." Previously the Hebrew and Greek were left untranslated. For example, in Wycliffe's Bible, which was based on the Latin, we find pask or paske.[/color][/b]

An article which appeared in The Trinitarian Bible Society Quarterly Record states:

[b]"When Tyndale applied his talents to the translation of the New Testament from Greek into English, he was not satisfied with the use of a completely foreign word, and decided to take into account the fact that the season of the passover was known generally to English people as `easter' ... Tyndale has ester or easter fourteen times, ester-lambe eleven times, esterfest once, and paschall lambe three times. When he began his translation of the Pentateuch, he was again faced with the problem in Exodus 12:11 and twenty- one other places, and no doubt recognizing the easter in this context would be an anachronism he coined a new word, passover and used it consistently in all twenty-two places. It is, therefore, to Tyndale that our language is indebted for this meaningful and appropriate word (date of article not known)." [/b]


The English versions after Tyndale followed his example in the Old Testament and increasingly replaced "Easter" with "Passover" in the New Testament (All the Newer Versions. except the King James). When we come to the Authorized Version (KJV) there remained but one instance of the word "Easter"--Acts 12:4.

It is precisely in this one passage that "Easter" must be used, and the translation "Passover" would have conflicted with the immediate context. In their rush to accuse the Authorized Version of error many have not taken the time to consider what the passage actually says: "... (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)...intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people."

[color=990000][b]To begin with, the Passover occurred before the feast of unleavened bread, not after!

"And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the Lord. And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast of unleavened bread--seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten" (Num. 28:16,17; see also Mark 14:12; 1 Cor. 5:7,8, etc.).[/color][/b]

Herod put Peter in prison during the days of unleavened bread, and therefore after the Passover. The argument that the translation "Passover" should have been used as it is intended to refer to the entire period, is ruled out by the inclusion of "these were the days of unleavened bread." Scripture does not use the word "Passover" to refer to the entire period.

Peloubet's Bible Dictionary says: "Strictly speaking the Passover only applied to the Paschal supper, and the feast of unleavened bread followed" (p. 486).

Therefore, as the passover had already been observed, and the days of unleavened bread were in progress, and yet Herod was still waiting for "after pascha"; we can only conclude that the word must be taken in a broader sense. History in fact does indicate a pagan and Christian interchange with the word through the translation "Easter."

A.W. Watts writes: "The Latin and Greek word for Easter is pascha, which is simply a form of Hebrew word for passover--pesach" (Easter--Its Story and Meaning, p. 36).

Thus, the word came to be associated with both Christian and pagan observance. And it was to this later that Herod was referring.

In an excellent study from which some of the above has been drawn, Raymond Blanton explains (in questions from Alexander Hislop) that Easter is Isthar, the queen of heaven and goddess of spring:

"The `pascha' that Herod was waiting for was evidently the celebration of the death and resurrection of Tammuz, the Sun god. The sunrise services today are a continuation of that pagan worship.

"...the great annual festival in commemoration of the death and resurrection of Tammuz, which was celebrated by alternate weeping and rejoicing and which, in many countries, was considerably later that the Christian festival, being observed in Palestine and Assyria in June. To conciliate the Pagans to nominal Christianity, Rome, pursing its usual policy, took measures to get the Christian and Pagan festival amalgamated, and, by complicated but skillful adjustment of the calendar, it was found no difficult matter, in general, to get Paganism and Christianity to shake hands" (Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons, p. 105).

Continuing his quotation from Hislop, Blanton shows:
"The term Easter is of pagan origin. It bears its Chaldean origin on its very forehead. Easter is nothing else than Astarte, one of the titles of Beltis, the queen of heaven" (Ibid., p. 103).
"The connection between the word Easter and Tammuz is thus: The wife of Tammuz was Isthar (Astarte), who is called Mother Nature, who being refreshed by spring rains brings life. When Tammuz died, she followed him into the underworld or realm of Eresh-Kigal, queen of the dead. In her deep grief Astarte persuaded Eresh-Kigal to allow her messenger to sprinkle Astarte and Tammuz with the water of life. By this sprinkling they had power to return in the light of the sun for six months. After which the same cycle must be repeated.

[color=990000][b]Easter is a joint worship of the two. This Satanic myth is interwoven with the sun's cycle of vernal equinox (dawn) and autumn equanox (sunset)."

This was the pascha that Herod was waiting for before releasing Peter. As an Edomite, he and his people had a long association with Babylon and her mystery religion (cf. Gen. 14:1-4). [/color][/b]

(This material is used with permission from Jack Moorman's book Coonies, Easter, and Brass, available from Way of Life Literature.)


[url=http://av1611.com/kjbp/articles/moorman-easter.html]Easter NOT Passover[/url]

Sincerely,

Walter


Koheleth wrote:
Some thoughts for Waltern.

Today, the heathen, the Bible Hater, the Atheist, the Muslim, the Seminary professor says to the Christian believer---“have you heard, the entire Bible is full of discrepancies and error, and is all wrong.” The Christian of today responds by saying nothing, and shirking away.

I have never met or heard of such Christians. Those I fellowship with do not say nothing, so do you have any valid basis for this statement?

Scripture from the King James Bible proves that "Easter" is in fact, the proper word to use, and really the only word that can be used. The word "Easter" here, does NOT refer to "Easter" as we know it today, nor does it refer to the word " Passover" as it is wrongly translated in all newer Bible versions.

A valid thought, but misinformed. It would mean that the KJV translators had special revelation that no Christians in any other age have had before or since. In fact, it would mean they had knowledge that the author of Acts did not have, since the author did not use the Greek word for Easter.

1. PASSOVER 2. DAYS OF UNLEAVENED BREAD 3. EASTER

You are mistaken. The Greek word translated Easter by the KJV is "pascha" or Passover. Saying "after Passover" while the Days of Unleavened Bread were taking place only acknowledges the fact that Jews have historically used Passover to mean the entire week. Also, no other historical document has ever used the Greek word "Passover" (pascha) to refer to Easter. They are entirely different days of observance with very different meanings, cultures, and histories.

Take care.

S
sermonindex

To Koheleth:

I posted:

[b]

1. PASSOVER 2. DAYS OF UNLEAVENED BREAD 3. EASTER

[/b]
________________________________________

Koheleth Responded:


[color=990000]You are mistaken. The Greek word translated Easter by the KJV is "pascha" or Passover. Saying "after Passover" while the Days of Unleavened Bread were taking place only [u]acknowledges the fact that Jews have historically used Passover to mean the entire week.[/u] Also, no other historical document has ever used the Greek word "Passover" (pascha) to refer to Easter. They are entirely different days of observance with very different meanings, cultures, and histories.[/color][/b]


My response to Koheleth:

Some time ago, Ron Bailey (Philologos) made the same statement as yours above: [u]acknowledges the fact that Jews have historically used Passover to mean the entire week.[/u].

I challenged Ron to prove his position with Biblical Prooftext, and he could not.

I now challenge you to do the same thing that I challenged Ron Bailey to do.

However, you will not be successful. The Old Testament is clear that the feast of Passover was to be a “forever” event, a forever Feast to the Lord, a sacrifice that would occur on the 14th day of Abib. Abib was the 7th month, but this was such a specail feast (the Feast of Passover) that God commanded the Jews to make this their first month, to be celebrated forever as memorial. What were the Jews to do?. They created a “Religious Calendar", that starts with the 7th month (Abib), and they also still kept their regular calendar, that started at the day of creation.

Passover is a celebration to Memoralize their miraculous flight from the bonds and slavery of Egypt by the almighty power of God. It also pointed to a future event, when Christ, God incarnate, would come to earth and shed his blood on the cross for all the sins of the world. This special day, the 14th of Abib, Passover, was fulfilled when Christ was sacrificed for us on the cross on Thursday, on the day of the Feast of Passover, the 14th of Abib.

"Christ is our Passover"!

"Christ is also also our Firstfruits".

The feast of Firstfruits occurred on the 17th of Abib, on a Sunday in the year that the our Lord rose from the dead. Christ rose from the dead on this day, the 17th of Abib, the First day of the week, a Sunday.

The explanation for the uniqueness of the Passover sacrificial rite may be found in its commemorative aspects. The Bible repeatedly emphasized this facet of Passover, "And this day shall be for you a memorial…" (Exodus12:14); "And Moses said to the people: remember this day in which you come out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage…" (Exodus13:3); "You shall remember what Adonai your God did to Pharaoh…" (Deuteronomy7: 18); "that you may remember the day when you come out of the land of Egypt all the days of your life" (Deuteronomy16:3). These verses are a clear indication that the general function of the Passover pageantry was to serve as a constant reminder to the Israelites of their struggle against slavery and their wondrous deliverance from Egyptian bondage.

The festival of the paschal lamb was ushered in on the evening of the 14th of Nisan. On that night, the Israelites were ordered to eat the paschal lamb, and several restrictive rules were added to this feast. "And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roasted with fire; with unleavened bread and bitter herbs they shall eat it" (Exodus12:8). They were not to eat it rare or boiled in water (Exodus 12:9). They were not to leave the meat over past the conclusion of the night (Exodus 12: 10). They were not to break any of the bones of the lamb (Exodus 12:46). No alien sojourner, hired servant, or uncircumcised person may eat the meat of the paschal lamb (Exodus 12:43-45). And finally, the feast was to be held in one house, and no part of the meat was to be taken outside the house (Exodus 12:46).

A bevy of explanations has been offered for these various biblical rites attached to the paschal lamb and its sacrifice. Some scholars regarded the injunction to have the lamb roasted as a distinction from ancient pagan spring festival rites, when meat was eaten either uncooked or half-broiled. Non-Israelites and uncircumcised ones were precluded from participating in the feast of the paschal lamb because the occasion was one of reaffirming God's covenant with the Israelites.

The symbolism of the eating of the paschal lamb with the matzah and bitter herbs was a reminder to the Israelites of an enslaved past.
Interestingly, the smearing of blood on the doorposts did not become a part of the Passover pageantry. Since all paschal lambs were slaughtered in Jerusalem once the Temple was built, the Israelites would have been too far from their homes to smear blood on their doorposts


Sincerely,

Walter

A
ADisciple

Some time ago, Ron Bailey (Philologos) made the same statement as yours above: acknowledges the fact that Jews have historically used Passover to mean the entire week..

I challenged Ron to prove his position with Biblical Prooftext, and he could not.

I now challenge you to do the same thing that I challenged Ron Bailey to do.

I won't speculate why Ron Bailey felt disinclined to pick up your glove, Walter.

But "Biblical Prooftext" for this one is very easy to find.

Lk. 22.1.

... I recall you and I getting into a bit of a discussion about this passage in Acts 12 some months ago. You insist otherwise, but it's as plain as day what Luke meant when you go to the Greek.

"...Purposing after the Passover (to pascha) to bring him out to the people."

Walter, one of the characteristics of the wisdom that is from above is that it is "easy to be intreated" (Jas. 3.17). :-)

J
jimp

hi, i have a friend who lives where i live named mary and she is from antioch turkey...the place where we were first called christians...she was brought up worshipping the man who died on the cross,gruz.she had no bible and none were printed in turkey til 1998.. when she got her bible she read it for months realizing the hand me down rote was full of mythe and error because of the percecution of believers by muslums... the bible printers were bombed within a year...instead of arguing over which version;partner up with someone to get the version of choice into islamic countries... i dont think mary would argue even if she received one you hate.jimp

S
sermonindex


jimp, I have true love and compassion for your friend from Turkey. What I am talking about has nothing to do with Salvation. People can be saved without ever reading a Bible. It is happening all over the globe today, even in Saudia Arabia and Iran, and most Moslem countries. It is a real faith, because they realize that once they accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, they will most assuredly loose their lives. There is a great harvest taking place that most of us are not aware of.

The purpose of my posts are biblically oriented---for the Lord tells us that we must contend for the faith.

Beloved, ... it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith ... (Jude 3)

By God’s grace, what I am concerned with here is contending for the faith. No one has to defend Jesus or the Word of God. God is perfectly capable of defending Himself and His Word.

[b] Nevertheless, He tells us to contend for the faith as there is a great issue before us today.


[size=small][font=Helvetica]The question is – where is the Word of God?

Which version is the real Bible? [u] Why do the different versions not read the same?[/u]

These are good questions and they beg to be answered.[/font][/size][/b]

Other Scripture about this issue is found in II Tim. 2:23-26:

"But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."

"Then said the Lord unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word to perform it." (Jeremiah 1:12)

Here God says He is watching over His Word to perform it – to make all that He has said come to pass.

Jesus said, "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away." (Mark 13:31)
God did not promise to keep the original piece of material upon which His words were given. He says His Words SHALL NOT PASS AWAY. Therefore, this promise demands that we still have them on planet earth.

Jesus also says, "Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels." (Mark 8:38)
Why this verse if God has not preserved His Word?
"But the word of the Lord endureth forever." (I Pet.1:25)

This is a direct quote of Isaiah 40:8. God has said that His Word will endure forever! He did not promise that the original piece of paper, rock or vellum would exist forever but that He would preserve the Word – forever.

"The grass withereth, the flower fadeth; but the word of our God shall stand for ever." (Isaiah 40:8)

".. for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." (Psalm 138:2)

Jesus said "... and the Scripture cannot be broken." (John 10:35)

"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shall keep them, O Lord, thou shall preserve them from this generation forever." (Psa.12:6, 7)

This is God's promise to us. He says He will preserve it. He did not just promise to give the originals pure and free from error – He promised to preserve the text forever!

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48)

[color=990000][size=x-small][b]Since God's Word will judge us, are we to believe that God will judge us by something which He meticulously gave us and then lost along the way? Would it be just and fair of God to judge us with these words if they are no longer trustworthy – to hold us accountable when our guide is not 100 percent reliable?

Today, in these last days, most Christians no longer have a hunger for God’s INERRANT Word. God has given me that hunger, and I am sharing it with others. Some Christians embrace it, and other Christians reject it. However, I think those that reject it would have a problme finding Scripture that supports their position.

It is up to each one to decide what they will do with HIS Word (that is "Quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword.")[/color][/b][/size]

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."
(Hebrews 4:12-13)

Sincerely,

Walter


jimp wrote:
hi, i have a friend who lives where i live named mary and she is from antioch turkey...the place where we were first called christians...she was brought up worshipping the man who died on the cross,gruz.she had no bible and none were printed in turkey til 1998.. when she got her bible she read it for months realizing the hand me down rote was full of mythe and error because of the percecution of believers by muslums... the bible printers were bombed within a year...instead of arguing over which version;partner up with someone to get the version of choice into islamic countries... i dont think mary would argue even if she received one you hate.jimp

S
SonsofLevi

I've read through a few of these knowing the difference between the Living Word and the written word.
No matter what version you read, and I agree some have strayed greatly from the original texts, if the Holy spirit does not quicken it to Life and we read it with our natural mind then it is a dead word. The Scripture supports the Lord Jesus in that. That includes King James and all. There are versions that are even closer to the original than that and those are dead too if the Holy Spirit and our spirit do not cooperate together in our reading. In which He will show us in practical experience as we walk.
All this version this and version that is exactly what the Holy Spirit said in the Book of Hebrews was all outward form. If you don't have the Living Word...then you don't have the written word whether you're holding a King James Bible or not.
May the Lord grant unto us all a spirit of wisdom and revelation in all our studies.

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