Anger / Hatred of God

How do reformed theologians resolve the tension that exists between the sovereign grace of God, and the holy hatred / indignation / anger / wrath of God?

If all men are truly depraved and wicked, all men equally deserve hell. I understand this and I agree with this completely.

But throughout Scripture, God reveals His anger towards several nations for debauchery / immorality, as well as Israel for falling away from Him and not keeping His commandments.

If all men are truly depraved and wicked, God must know that men are truly depraved and wicked and unable to turn to Him unless He grants them the grace and mercy to turn and repent towards Him... so why does He become angry at men for naturally being what they are... depraved / sinful wicked?

I'm not asking why God punishes them, or why God judges them... I'm asking, 'Why does God exhibit the emotion (?) of anger / fury?'

No thoughts?

:-(

Who knows?

Anguish,

If you read Psalms 107, there are four times that God is angered and four times where He inflicts pain but then there is also four times where it says, "THEN they cried unto the Lord" and HE HEARD THEM or leads them or saves them or brings them out of where they WERE to where they should be.

10 Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron;
11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High:
12 Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help.
13 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses.
14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder.
15 [b]Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men![/b]

Could it be as simple as this? I think so!

While the Bible itself does not use the term 'depravity,' we must be careful in throwing out the baby with the bathwater... if we were to continue that line of logic, we would have to abolish the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, because the term 'Holy Trinity' is not found in the Bible.

These verses support the view of total depravity.

* Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
* Genesis 8:1: "And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.
* Job 15:14: What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?

15 Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight; how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water!

* Job 25:4-6: How then can man be in the right before God? How can he who is born of woman be pure? 5Behold, even the moon is not bright, and the stars are not pure in his eyes; 6 how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!"
* Psalms 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."
* Psalms 58:3: "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."
* Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."
* Ecclesiastes 9:3: "This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead."
* Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"
* Jeremiah 13:23: (NIV): "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."
* Isaiah 64:6 "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away"
* Isaiah 64:7 "There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you, for you have hidden your face from us and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities."
* Isaiah 64:8 "But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand."
* Mark 7:21-23: "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."
* John 3:19: "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil."
* John 6:44: "[Jesus said,] 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.'"
* John 6:64-65: "[Jesus said,] 'But there are some of you who do not believe.' (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'"
* John 8:34: "Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.'"
* Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."
* Romans 8:7-8: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
* 1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
* Ephesians 2:1-3: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." (our depravity being emphasised in the concept of being "dead"; only something external -i.e. God- can give a dead man life)
* Titus 3:3: "For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another."

As to your comment on Romans 2, yes Paul says it is possible to live righteously according to conscience, but you must look at the entire context of the letter of Romans, as well as the first 3 chapters. Paul is writing the first 3 chapters to stop every mouth and make everybody guilty before God.

He is not saying, keep the law in order to become righteous, rather he is pressing the law of God upon Jews and Gentiles in order to show their depravity and inability to keep the entire counsel of God.

It is very similar to when Jesus told the rich young ruler to keep the commandments if he wanted to inherit eternal life. Was this something that the young man could begin to do in order to earn salvation? No, Jesus pressed the law upon him in order to bring his corrupt heart to light.

Anyway, I am not here to argue the doctrine of total depravity.

I am here to ask if anybody knows how to resolve the tension between Total Depravity / Election, and the hatred / anger of God towards unbelievers.

I am not questioning the act of God's judgment / righteousness that must be according to His Holiness... I am trying to find out why God exhibits anger towards depraved men.

Perhaps His anger is a byproduct of Election / Total Depravity... in the light of His plan for salvation to the certain predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son?

God does not wish to be angry, but He must be angry against sin, because it offends Him at His core, but He was willing to endure the scorn by the majority of mankind in order to bring salvation through Jesus Christ to His elect...

Hmm...

*edit... conscious =! conscience* :-P

I am here to ask if anybody knows how to resolve the tension between Total Depravity / Election, and the hatred / anger of God towards unbelievers.

Anguish there is no tension in the bible about issues you mentioned. The tension is in our hearts for lack of revelation and better understanding of scriptures thru Holy Spirit.

For total depravity of man, total redemption and salvation in provided in Jesus Christ.There is no contradiction between the holy God of OT and the God of love of the NT. God is one. Election is according to forknowledge of God and he did not made hell for men but for demons and the devil.The bible warns us to flee from the wrath to come, while at the present offers us the free gift of salvation in Jesus Christ.

DeepThinker wrote:

Is God angry?

This is news to me.

I love it!

I did not read all the posts, so someone else may have shared this idea....

You asked:

'Why does God exhibit the emotion (?) of anger / fury?'

If you have loved ones who are spurning the mercy and grace of God, who are walking away from God and have chosen the path that leads to hell, you can more easily understand God's anger. If you can in your imagination and emotion visualize hell for a brief moment and know these people have [i][b]chosen[/b][/i] this place to spend eternity, it has the power to evoke anger like nothing else. It is not that they do not know but that they have chosen to disbelieve.

If you have experienced this, I think you will understand that God is very much justified to be angry, especially since he has provided the means to escape this hazzard by suffering and dying on a cross and a person spurns it!

My thoughts,
ginnyrose

All comes from unbelief. AS Adam in unbelief of God and belief of the deceiver. As Isreal in the wilderness. They could not enter God's rest because of unbelief, from which all sin sprouts from. God's wrath is most certainly on the unbelief, not the unbeliever for whom Christ died for.

Even now, unbelief is the full depth of God's anger and wrath.

There is a difference in The Nation of Israel and the individual that is called. This is where a lot of misinformation comes from. God has set aside the Gospel to Israel as a nation, but not His chosen and called in Christ.

Hebrews 3:7-19 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Again; "So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

How do we believe? By the foolishness of preaching of God's Word. "How shall they hear without a preacher." The Gospel is now given to the Gentiles, and they are the same, they will not enter God's rest because of unbelief. "They will hear it, that is the "Gospel", but unbelief is still the only thing that keeps the whole world from salvation. The Faith of Christ, The Grace of God, The Teaching and Conviction of the Holy Spirit, to those that are called according to His purpose.

Acts 28:25-31 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

How do we have rest? Not anguish, but peace and rest in Christ.

Acts 9:29-31 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him. Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus. Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that He is the Son of God and you will be saved.

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Do we want rest or anguish?

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Rest, sweet rest in God's rest through Jesus Christ.

Do we want rest?

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into His rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Anything outside of Rest in Christ is our own works trying to take our anguish and overcome so we can be right before God, This is Sin.

The works in God's rest are such that will follow us into the presence of God as Christ presents His Body the Church to the Father.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

In Christ's rest: Phillip

This short article may help.

It seems a contradiction that a God who is love can also hate. We are created with the capacity to both love and hate; it is part of our being created in the image of God. The fact that we are all tainted with sin does not negate the fact that the ability to love and hate is part of the image of God that was created within us all. Therefore, if it is no contradiction for a human being to be able to love and hate, then much more so would it not be a contradiction for God to be able to love and hate.

When the Bible does speak of God hating, the object of God’s hatred is usually sin and wickedness. Among the things God hates are idolatry (Deuteronomy 12:31, 16:22) and those who do evil (Psalm 5:4-6, 11:5). Proverbs 6:16-19 outlines seven things the Lord hates: pride, lying, murder, evil plots, those who love evil, false witness, and troublemakers. Notice that this passage does not include just things that God hates; it includes people as well.

The question that begs to be answered at this point is why does God hate these things? God hates them because they are contrary to His nature—God’s nature being holy, pure and righteous. In fact, David writes, “For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you” (Psalm 5:4 emphasis added). God is holy and hates sin. If He did not hate sin, He would not be holy. God is love, but He is also wrath, justice, and vengeance. But His wrath is a holy wrath and His justice and vengeance are holy as well. God’s love is holy. Therefore, He cannot "love everyone all the time no matter what they do," as some like to claim. Nothing could be further from the truth. God loves righteousness and holiness and hates sin and evil. If He did not, He would not be God.

So if God hates sin and loves holiness, how does He love us? Simple. He loves us because we have the righteousness of Christ who became sin for us on the cross (2 Corinthians 5:21). He poured out His wrath and vengeance against sin on His Son, so that He could pour out His mercy and love on us. But without that sacrifice credited to us, His wrath and hatred remains on us because He hates our sin. The Bible never says He ‘hates the sin, but loves the sinner.’ In fact He is “angry with the wicked every day” (Psalm 7:11). Is there a sense in which God loves everyone? Yes. Does that love preclude God from also hating sin, wickedness, and evil? No. [url=http://www.gotquestions.org/does-God-hate.html]Source[/url]

Man's Unbelief > God's Sovereign Grace ?

Man does not desire God
Man cannot seek God
Men are born God-hating
Men are sinful, wicked creatures

Please take this as a true premise before responding. :-(

This is why the original post asked how 'reformed theologians' resolved the tension...

My question runs much deeper than what you guys are getting at...

Man cannot turn to God unless God, in a way, forces them to be regenerate through His Holy Spirit... In the same way, none of us here on this planet chose to be born into this world, in a way we were forced into this world by our parents. Thus Christ talks of being born again, with His conversation with Nicodemus. No one chooses and says, I think I would like to be born in the time period of 1500 AD, in France. Or, I would like to born in the time period of the Medo-Persian empire...

I know I did not seek God because of some intellect that I possess, neither was I nicer than any of my peers, God simply chose to put a hunger within me to search after Him...

If men are truly depraved and wicked, and require God to move on their behalf to save them, why does God still exhibit anger against them?

Are we not saved through grace? Grace through faith? A revelation of His mercy towards us? Anything else would allow men to boast in the flesh, and say, I TURNED TO GOD, I CHOSE GOD, I CHOSE TO REPENT>>> which will eventually, if followed logically >>>I DESERVE HEAVEN BECAUSE OF SOMETHING I DID / THOUGHT / SAID.

Opposed to, God chose me, God granted me grace although I did not deserve it, I am no better than my fellow man, there was nothing in me worth saving, God simply chose to pour out His unmerited favor upon me... I deserve hell, if God were to send me to hell, I would still glorify God for who He is... and I am a worm.

IWantAnguish wrote:
Man's Unbelief > God's Sovereign Grace ?

Man does not desire God
Man cannot seek God
Men are born God-hating
Men are sinful, wicked creatures

Please take this as a true premise before responding. :-(

This is why the original post asked how 'reformed theologians' resolved the tension...

My question runs much deeper than what you guys are getting at...

Man cannot turn to God unless God, in a way, forces them to be regenerate through His Holy Spirit... In the same way, none of us here on this planet chose to be born into this world, in a way we were forced into this world by our parents. Thus Christ talks of being born again, with His conversation with Nicodemus. No one chooses and says, I think I would like to be born in the time period of 1500 AD, in France. Or, I would like to born in the time period of the Medo-Persian empire...

I know I did not seek God because of some intellect that I possess, neither was I nicer than any of my peers, God simply chose to put a hunger within me to search after Him...

If men are truly depraved and wicked, and require God to move on their behalf to save them, why does God still exhibit anger against them?

Are we not saved through grace? Grace through faith? A revelation of His mercy towards us? Anything else would allow men to boast in the flesh, and say, I TURNED TO GOD, I CHOSE GOD, I CHOSE TO REPENT>>> which will eventually, if followed logically >>>I DESERVE HEAVEN BECAUSE OF SOMETHING I DID / THOUGHT / SAID.

Opposed to, God chose me, God granted me grace although I did not deserve it, I am no better than my fellow man, there was nothing in me worth saving, God simply chose to pour out His unmerited favor upon me... I deserve hell, if God were to send me to hell, I would still glorify God for who He is... and I am a worm.

1. Your reasoning above leaves a lot to be desired.

2. Your castigation of those who answered your thread with the sincere desire to help clarify the issue is out of place. You should be grateful for their responses.

3. Your practice of posing theoretical questions when you already have a preset notion of what the answer should be, and then berating those who respond differently is distasteful.

4. If you have an idea that you want to express, have the courage to spell it out rather than using this bait-and-switch method to see what others think first so you can come out on top in the end.

I sincerely hope these constructive criticisms will help you towards a more productive and edifying experience in this forum.

Boy, you are something else! 1. Your reasoning above leaves a lot to be desired. 2. Your castigation of those who answered your thread with the sincere desire to help clarify the issue is out of place. You should be grateful for their responses. 3. Your practice of posing theoretical questions when you already have a preset notion of what the answer should be, and then berating those who respond differently is distasteful. 4. If you have an idea that you want to express, have the courage to spell it out rather than using this bait-and-switch method to see what others think first so you can come out on top in the end. I sincerely hope these constructive criticisms will help you towards a more productive and edifying experience in this forum.

I was in no way castigating those who replied... But I did state in the original post that I was seeking how 'reformed theologians' would resolve the issue.

I understand there are many on these forums that do not hold to reformed views on several doctrines, but I do hold to the idea that the law of non-contradiction exists in this universe. This means, that A cannot equal Non-A at the same time... The reason I hold to reformed theology is because I can see that it exalts the glory of God above the opinions of men.

Also, it is presumptuous on your behalf to believe that I am not grateful for the responses that I have already received.

I do not post in this forum looking for arguments... rather I am seeking truth. And I thought I could rely on others who participate on this site to help me out here, because it really is quite frustrating.

And as for your last point, I am insulted that you would presume that I have some sort of hidden agenda in order to make myself look smarter than those who chose to reply to my post...

Anyway... Thanks to all of you guys for attempting to help me out of the mess I'm in.

I'll be retiring from this forum for now.

May God bless you all, for Christ was cursed on our behalf.

/end thread

Hi everyone...i don't mean to interrupt, but I thought this would be a good time to pop in and ask something that has plagued me for years...a simple question: does God love me or not? I know some people have said "well, do you believe in Christ? If you do, then yes, he loves you...but if you don't, then he hates you"...and I have also gotten "yes, he loves you, he showed you by giving his son...now please believe on him"

So I just don't know, I really don't know...and it agonizes me further because the Bible seems to give both answers...it says he hates the wicked, but then again you have john 3:16, as well as "God showed his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for the ungodly"

So if someone was picked randomly from the street, would you be able to say "God loves that person"?

IWantAnguish wrote:

If all men are truly depraved and wicked, all men [b]equally[/b] deserve hell and unable to turn to Him unless He grants them the grace and mercy to turn and repent towards Him... so why does He become angry at men for naturally being what they are... depraved / sinful wicked?

What is His criteria for choosing the equally wicked men over the others with out being arbitrary?

It is unfortunate that I have yet to recognize anyone who has begun to properly distinguish how it is that God's Wrath is not to be confused with our notions of man's wrath (which "does not work the righteousness of God," James 1:20).

I ask a simple question: if God is angry with and hates the unrighteous man, does that mean God is malicious?

Answer: Ephesians 4:31. That is, let all abhorrence, and wrath, and anger, and dissatisfaction, and accusations be grounded in and begotten of the ministry of reconciliation, and let them not be mixed with ill-will. If you can apprehend this spiritual principle, you will have an inkling of the beauty of God's righteous Wrath.

Moreover, anyone who thinks that God ONLY loves people today because it is the NEW Testament dispensation need to familiarize themselves with the rest of John 3.

John 3:14-17
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Immediately followed by verse 18,
He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not [b]is condemned [u]already[/u][/b], because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And, again, verse 36,
He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but [b]the wrath of God [u]abides[/u] on him[/b].

The difficulty with rightly handling the seeming antagonism between divine Love and Wrath begins with the realization that God is declared to be Love (1 John 4:8); and nowhere in Scripture revelation is God equally declared to be Wrath. This priority is evident enough in James 2:13b, "mercy rejoices over judgment." In the same manner that we might understand the Trinity as One Substance: so we may also consider Wrath to be of One Substance with Love. Love and Wrath are not the same, but they are unified inseparably and magnify each other in perfect complement. And to continue in Trinitarian language: Love is the Origin (or Pure Substance) from which Grace proceeds forth. And, where is Wrath in this scheme? It is derived from Grace. I like the way R. A. Finlayson explained this phenomena, when he said, "Hell is an encounter with the character and will of God. God's nature is holy, and His character is unsullied righteousness. For the unholy to mix with holiness is Hell." That is to say, for the creature that is spiritually corrupt to receive the pure Grace of God is as Isaiah 33:14, "The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?" For the Presence of God is unapproachable Light and in Him there can abide neither darkness nor shadow of turning. Even as another has already referenced, "For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you." Psalm 5:4.

From this, you may have noticed, I literally define divine Wrath as God's pure, good, and life-abounding Grace shed upon the obstinate and rebellious soul. To reiterate, it is not Love, properly in itself, which defines Wrath but rather it is the object which Love is set upon — this is how God can Love and Hate the same object at the same instance. For it is the very power of the holiness of Love that destroys the ungodly and gives fury to the tempests of hell-fire. From here, we may begin to properly consider the insurmountable contradiction of how a Holy God could ever dwell in peace with the condemned sons of men; for the very Grace of God is Hell to the wicked. Therefore let all men worship the God of all Grace who has made atonement for our sins according to the Scriptures: the Gospel of His Beloved Son.

Now, to briefly address Reformed theology regarding sovereign predestination and God's Wrath. I am assuming by 'reformed theologians' you are referring to Reformed Calvinism; since that is a common title and Arminianism is often disregarded as being Reformed theology (although it is). So to help in answering your dilemma, Anguish, it is my conviction that it is not possible for 'reformed theologians' to resolve this issue. For the very scheme of Calvinian predestination (in all its varieties) is to blame for your frustration. Edwardian Calvinists have a somewhat better position because they ascribe to God, what is so-called, "two wills." Nonetheless, while this doctrine may benefit some relief from the tension, it will not satisfy, leaving much to be desired. And, in my opinion, it is little more than an [i]ad hoc[/i] argument.

Simply put, if all men do not possess such a thing as limited free will (a power of will graciously given, empowered, and assisted by God) then there can be no such thing as a harmonious complement between divine Love and Wrath — inevitably the relationship between divine Love and Wrath with resemble, if not conform to, the principles of yin-yang. You will be familiar with this concept as "double predestination." It is fortunate however, that the majority of Reformed theologians (especially the Puritans) have always embraced free will as the basis of moral responsibility and the grounds for God's justice. The problems arise when we attempt to fit this Scripture revelation to the framework of double predestination. Charles Spurgeon, in a sermon titled, [i]A Defense of Calvinism[/i], made the following statement,

[size=11]The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."[/size]

Even if we were to admit that God has "two wills," we shall inevitably fall upon the same difficulties. Moreover, it seems to me the concept of "two wills" is a logical consequence of Jonathan Edwards' erroneous view on the freedom of the will. Wherein, rather than attributing the determinacy of man's will to act upon any spiritual law of man's nature, it is swallowed up and consumed into God's absolute sovereignty — the second will. Practically, this doctrine will create a reasonable distinction between Predestination and Moral Responsibility but by definition, just as a bubble pops, it does not deliver us from Antinomianism or fatalism. It is a clever way of saying "God loves everybody," yet not all of them with an effectual love. Common grace, or common love, can only come from a Common, or non-saving, God: for God is Love. Common grace is equivalent to declaring God to be non-God to the eternal reprobate. Probably the most detestable result of this teaching is evident when we consider that the world is ultimately condemned for rejecting the Savior; however, if Jesus did not die for the elect reprobate then He is not their Savior; and therefore, sinners cannot ultimately be condemned for rejecting any Savior they never had, if He never died for them.

A great deal more could be brought to bear but, as I am sure you have already come to realize, Anguish, they all deal with God's relationship to humanity — God's Love and Wrath revealed from heaven. Otherwise, you would not be frustrated with your attempts to work through the goodness of God in the condemnation of sinners and the justifying of the wicked by faith.

Psalms 14:2-3 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Who does the seeking? It is God who seeks any that believe, first, then we who believe do then seek His Face. Then and only then.

Even David; Psalms 27:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

Who is doing the seeking and saying seek my face.

If God says seek my face, will it be done or is God depending on man.

Again;

Psalms 53:2-3 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Who is doing the bringing back?

Psalms 53:6 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

Psalms 63:1 A Psalm of David, when he was in the wilderness of Judah. O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee: my soul thirsteth for thee, my flesh longeth for thee in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is;

Why is David seeking God? He who taught David to Seek the face of God, God is the reason David was after the heart of God.

Not only with love and understanding from God do we seek His face, but God is perfect in all His dealings with man, even to those that need to be shamed to lift up their hands unto Him.

Psalms 83:16 Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD.

Who gives the understanding? David seeks God out of His Holy Place naming Him as the Author of all David is by God's doing.

Psalms 119:169-176 TAU. Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word. Let my supplication come before thee: deliver me according to thy word. My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes. My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness. Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts. I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight. Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me. I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

God's anger and destruction are even for His Own Children.

Proverbs 1:27-29 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Proverbs 1:33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

Proverbs 8:19-22 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and My revenue than choice silver. I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures. The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

For what cause Salvation?

And on and on, this just a bit of the Old Testament.

Who has birthed us unto a New Life in Christ by His Own Incorruptable Seed, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

In Christ: Phillip

boG wrote:

[size=11]The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."[/size]

Pure gold.

I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."

Good words here. Two lines of sight reveal a depth not percievable through just one.

Most cameras show perfect pictures of reality captured from the vantage of a single lens. However, some special cameras can take two pictures of the same view from different angles to match the stereo vision of human eyesight. Both the left and the right photos in a stereo image are absolutely faithful to the exact same reality but still when placed on top of one another they don't line up. However, when placed side by side on equal distance from the eye, a single stereo image emerges...not on the printed paper, but in the mind, revealing more of reality as it is with a far reaching depth not perceivable or available with only one vantage point.

While that analogy is a pale comparisons to the depth of biblical truth, perhaps it can demonstrate it is not necessary to become binary over sovereignty and free-will; two realities that are clearly irrefutably upheld in scripture.

Blessings,

MC

Jdl wrote:
So if someone was picked randomly from the street, would you be able to say "God loves that person"?

This is a simple verse, we've heard it for years but it IS TRUE:

For God so loved the world that HE sent His only begetton son that WHOSOEVER would believe on Him might be saved. Period.

Read carefully, [b]before[/b] we believed God AND [b]before[/b] He sent Christ in human form to us... so loved us.

God so loves you Jdl, period.

Miccah wrote:
boG wrote:

[size=11]The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."[/size]

Pure gold.

These two lines of thought and scripture, were before the foundation, from the foundation and to New foundation of the world, and God is at the beginning of both lines and at the end of both lines. Surprisingly, only to man, He is in the in between also. It is God who made us, it is God who keeps us. Who are we to say that we have done anything. Is not God the head of all His creation, which He can do as He pleases, oh! Clay pot.

Romans 9:18-33 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?-------(((((((((((((Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?))))))))))))))-------Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Seems pretty clear who is in Charge.

In Christ, By God, "our Father", by the Cross of Christ and His Incorruptable Seed, of which we are rebirthed into the Family of God:

Phillip

ChristInYou, when you say, "Who are we to say that we have done anything. Is not God the head of all His creation, which He can do as He pleases, oh! Clay pot"; what exactly do you mean?

It would appear that, even though you did not express yourself clearly, you are implying that God is the [i]Author of man's sin[/i] — for, taking your own words, we may just as easily say "who are we to say that we have done (sin)." For what can we do that God was not pleased to work in us, just as the potter has power over the clay. However, since that is not the proper exposition of the parable of the potter (see Jeremiah 18:5-10), it is little wonder if you should think Paul's rebuke, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?" should be referring to men who are indignant that God made them sinners. This line of thinking is sometimes known as "Equal Ultimacy."

Consider these words from the intro of Matthew Henry's Commentary on James 1:13-18

[size=11]We are here taught that God is not the author of any man's sin. Whoever they are who raise persecutions against men, and whatever injustice and sin they may be guilty of in proceeding against them, God is not to be charged with it. And, whatever sins good men may themselves be provoked to by their exercises and afflictions, God is not the cause of them. It seems to be here supposed that some professors might fall in the hour of temptation, that the rod resting upon them might carry some into ill courses, and make them put forth their hands unto iniquity. But though this should be the case, and though such delinquents should attempt to lay their fault on God, yet the blame of their misconduct must lie entirely upon themselves. For, 1. There is nothing in the nature of God that they can lay the blame upon: [i]Let no man say, when he is tempted[/i] to take any evil course, or do any evil thing, [i]I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil[/i]. All moral evil is owing to some disorder in the being that is chargeable with it, to a want of wisdom, or of power, or of decorum and purity in the will. But who can impeach the holy God with the want of these, which are his very essence? No exigence of affairs can ever tempt him to dishonour or deny himself, and therefore he cannot be tempted with evil. 2. There is nothing in the providential dispensations of God that the blame of any man's sin can be laid upon (James 1:13): [i]Neither tempteth he any man[/i]. As God cannot be tempted with evil himself, so neither can he be a tempter of others. He cannot be a promoter of what is repugnant to his nature. The carnal mind is willing to charge its own sins on God. There is something hereditary in this. Our first father Adam tells God, [i]The woman thou gavest me[/i] tempted me, thereby, in effect, throwing the blame upon God, for giving him the tempter. Let no man speak thus. It is very bad to sin; but is much worse, when we have done amiss, to charge it upon God, and say it was owing to him. Those who lay the blame of their sins either upon their constitution or upon their condition in the world, or who pretend they are under a fatal necessity of sinning, wrong God, as if he were the author of sin. Afflictions, as sent by God, are designed to draw out our graces, but not our corruptions.[/size]

[size=11]The following observations are offered not in the vain expectation of solving the intrinsic difficulties necessarily connected with mysteries far transcending the grasp of our finite minds, but in the humble hope of clearing away some of the factitious difficulties which human speculations have superadded; and more particularly for the purpose of pointing out the palpable distinction, which has been so generally overlooked, between predestination to good, and foreordination to evil; between election as originating with God, and reprobation as originating with the creature; and thence deducing the consequences which flow from this important distinction.

The distinction itself is manifestly implied in the following carefully weighed statement of the Westminster Confession of Faith, chap. iii. 1. (1) "God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet (2), so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established." Here both sides of the question seem to receive their due weight. (1) God's free predestination is strongly asserted, and yet (2) man's freewill duly maintained. [i]All[/i] things are declared to be ordained from eternity by God, good or bad, yet with this most important distinction, that while God is the [i]author[/i], that is, the [i]originating[/i] cause of all that is good, He is not "the author of sin," that is, the originating cause of the evil in the hearts of His creatures.

But if God is not "the author of sin," the creature must be its author. God has delegated to man a portion of His own power, however small, yet sufficient to constitute him an independent agent by giving him a will which can [i]originate[/i] an act opposed to God's will. Sin is the breaking off of the creature's will from God's will. But God's will cannot oppose His own will; it must therefore be the self-willed and self-originated act of the creature. God is the source of all good, and of good only. Hence we deduce the universal principle—

[b]All good originates from God.[/b]

[b]All evil originates from the creature.[/b]

If this principle be kept steadily in view, it will dissipate much of the error and difficulty that have gathered around the subjects of our inquiry.

Predestination is thus divested of its most objectionable aspect. All things are predestinated by God, both good and evil, but not pre[i]necessitated[/i], that is, [i]causally[/i] preordained by Him, unless we would make God "the author of sin". Predestination is thus an indifferent word, in as far as the [i]originating[/i] author of anything is concerned,* God being the originator of good, but the creature of evil. Predestination, therefore, means that God included in His plan of the world every act of every creature, good or bad. Having decreed to create freewill beings, that is, creatures having the power of breaking off, or not breaking off, that state of creaturely dependence of their wills on His holy will, and of union to Himself in which He had formed them, and knowing what each in the exercise of his freewill would choose, even though it were the evil, He included it in His plan, and to this extent foreordained it, overruling it to subserve His own wise and holy purposes. If in one sense, therefore, He may be considered as the first cause of all, yet is He but the [i]permissive[/i], not the [i]causative[/i] or [i]originating[/i] author of sin.

*Author's comment:
Predestination, as [i]generally[/i] understood, includes both good and evil. The distinction (afterwards adverted to) made by the authors of the Westminster Confession of Faith, and of the Authorised Version, between Predestination and Foreordination, by confining the former to the foreordination of the Elect only, while Foreordination includes evil as well as good, has not been generally observed; otherwise it might perhaps have prevented the neglect of the important distinction on which we insist.

... In predestination the more frequent conception regards the foreordination of the [i]Elect[/i] to salvation, and because with it is also combined (though a perfectly distinct question) a direct [i]causal[/i] influence of God, which originates, carries on, and perfects the work of salvation in the Elect, the idea has been improperly extended to the predestination of the reprobate, as if some [i]causal[/i] influence were exerted by God in His decreeing or permissively preordaining their foreseen perseverance in sin and consequent condemnation.[/size]