MUST HEAR: The Tightrope Walker!! - Calvinism vs. Arminianism by Keith Daniel

This message is very good, this message brother Keith Daniel brings forth have been somehow my burden for a long time. May God merge his church into one in HIM without any division due to our favorite doctrines.

Take time to listen to this i urge my brethren and sisters in the Lord.

This is a much needed word, thanks for posting it.

Are there any other sermons available from Mr. Daniel's recent tour of America?

In Christ,

Ron

How desperately we need men like this; men who will stand in the gap between Calvinism and Arminianism and proclaim the full counsel of God from both sides [i]without[/i] establishing categorical allegiances of either.

I believe God is raising up more and more brethren of this understanding, brethren who can't be [i]placed[/i], brethren who are ready to love and fellowship with all Christians, but cannot exclusively align theologically with any one "ism"; brethren who can preach both sides free from the stigma and the pet theological intimidations of other aligned brethren.

I haven't listened to the message yet but you are right Paul. God has been grooming, raising and teaching me exactly as you are speaking in your previous post and I am sure there are many others He is bringing up with the same heart and understand. I have been speaking and preaching about this often over the past year or so.

God bless,

Patrick
www.jonahproject.org

I believe God is raising up more and more brethren of this understanding, brethren who can't be placed, brethren who are ready to love and fellowship with all Christians, but cannot exclusively align theologically with any one "ism"; brethren who can preach both sides free from the stigma and the pet theological intimidations of other aligned brethren.

This sense of aligning brings to mind an image that I read of recently. If someone standing on the ground takes a wire and aligns it perfectly with an overhead electrical wire - brings it into perfect parallel - the electricity in the overhead wire will run through the wire of the person standing on the ground. Somehow I do not think the same thing will happen if you align that wire with a fencepost.

I have downloaded this, but yet to listen to it. However from the comments made I would agree that this understanding is of vital importance for the church. I am glad there are many here on SI who take this view of not taking a party spirit line of following 'mere men'.

I think this applies not only to Cal/Arm, but also to KJV only, petecostal/baptist.. et al.

We can hold to our different views on these things as we all must have, but to stand throwing stones at those who differ, saying your not a true Christian unless you believe what I believe on all points of contention.....well I wonder who made you judge and jury of all the saints!

I think this applies not only to Cal/Arm, but also to KJV only, petecostal/baptist.. et al.

Amen, I totally agree.

We can hold to our different views on these things as we all must have, but to stand throwing stones at those who differ, saying your not a true Christian unless you believe what I believe on all points of contention.....

Amen again.

It is one thing to discuss ideas and express thoughts on theological matters, but when someone declares the other to be " not saved" it really bothers me.

There are those that line up to the left, to the right, and the middle of every issue.

They can all be equally dogmatic.

I like what Paul Washer said, "Calvinism is not the primary issue."

Salvation is.

The Cal/Arm debate caused me great grief when I saw that brothers contesting each others salvation. This is Satan's wedge to divide the elect on both sides of the spectrum. This wedge is more cruel than then nails that pierced our Lords hand and feet. We should not be unaware of his wiles. As for myself election and free will are not in contradiction neither are works and grace.

As for myself election and free will are not in contradiction neither are works and grace.

I had the privelege of hearing this message in person at the Maranatha Baptist Family Camp and was so very grateful for it. I asked Brother Keith afterwards if it was going to be posted on
SI because of the great need for this message to be heard and he replied in his inimitable way, "I believe so, I think they are recording all of these to be posted..."
May God take the message and the spirit of the message around the world so that our war will be with the real enemy of our souls, rather than with one another.

Clint

My I clear this Calv. / Arm. big deal up.

First open your mine up to who and what GOD can do and does knows as to when you was going to be born 6000 years ago and know every thought / choice that you will have or make your whole life. To the Arminianist he knows every choice you will ever make in your life. So You make a choice but it happen 6000 years ago and is already set in stone aleady. GOD knows everything you will do and as to a choice, that is a none event and a done deal. So Arminianist your making NO choices at all at todays time.

Calvinist With GOD knowing every move you will make 6000 years ago, he does not need to make any changes at all and already knows who is going and who is not going. If GOD already knows who is saved and who is evil , what changes would he want to make for he has who he wanted in the beginning 6,000 years ago. With everything he wanted set in stone ALEADY what changes would he want to make. 6,000 years ago all the changes he would want to make happen then and there is no need for any change or sellection now. With everything set in stone 6,000 years ago what would make him feel the need to change anything now. If you said he was pickey and wanted to play around with people and test people 6000 years later after he has made a decision how thing will be. It might show he unstable in what he would make the world to be and back up on decissions he already made. Also you have made the way you will go already and he has no need to change anything. He is just watching it all play out.

It's GOD's World and the Calvinist and the Arminist are subjects for people to discuss at this late hour and nothing else.

turtle4aire wrote:
My I clear this Calv. / Arm. big deal up.

First open your mine up to who and what GOD can do and does knows as to when you was going to be born 6000 years ago and know every thought / choice that you will have or make your whole life. To the Arminianist he knows every choice you will ever make in your life. So You make a choice but it happen 6000 years ago and is already set in stone aleady. GOD knows everything you will do and as to a choice, that is a none event and a done deal. So Arminianist your making NO choices at all at todays time.

Calvinist With GOD knowing every move you will make 6000 years ago, he does not need to make any changes at all and already knows who is going and who is not going. If GOD already knows who is saved and who is evil , what changes would he want to make for he has who he wanted in the beginning 6,000 years ago. With everything he wanted set in stone ALEADY what changes would he want to make. 6,000 years ago all the changes he would want to make happen then and there is no need for any change or sellection now. With everything set in stone 6,000 years ago what would make him feel the need to change anything now. If you said he was pickey and wanted to play around with people and test people 6000 years later after he has made a decision how thing will be. It might show he unstable in what he would make the world to be and back up on decissions he already made. Also you have made the way you will go already and he has no need to change anything. He is just watching it all play out.

It's GOD's World and the Calvinist and the Arminist are subjects for people to discuss at this late hour and nothing else.

This to me sound awful close to hypercalvinism. I agree God foreknew every choice man would ever make. But on the other hand, if God "ordained" every choice, that would make God the author of evil. If man does not chose to sin but rather as you say it is set in stone 6000 years ago every sin, action or thought man does.

Like Keith points out in the sermon there need to be balance with Gods word, the thing is the more you lean towards one side without balancing yourself out with Gods word the more you will slide over to the side you are leaning against, maybe you spend great length and time explain away certain scriptures that seemingly looks that they contradict your view. But instead of looking to our view as maybe flawed or not complete we often chose to explain away the other passages that dont line up.

Myself see the grand truths in both Gods sovereignty and almighty power displayed all through scripture. But i also see there is great responsibility from mans view.

As Spurgeon said:

[i]"That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is foreordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."[/i]

Great Spurgeon quote brother Christian. As you well know, it is one of my favorites. :-)

I just read this on the Anchored in Truth website:

"You see, we think because God is sovereign we just kind of coast along and God builds His kingdom. Oh, no. He says three times, diligence, diligence, moral excellence, manly energy, get after it.(II Peter 1:5) Why? Because God’s sovereignty includes man’s responsibility. Don’t ever forget that. There’s a wicked, abhorrent teaching that’s called hyper-Calvinism. It goes too far. It takes God’s sovereignty into fatalism. And you must guard yourself from that and run from that and fight against that. We are responsible to diligently seek our God and serve our God." - Jeff Noblit

bible4life wrote:
Personally i think 5poin calvinism is misunderstood, it is not that really well we our defending calvinsm but that calvinism is that tulip is what scripture reveals. I do agree that we should not be holding them up as something above Christ or the word but i think it is basically saying this is what the scripture reveals and through the tulip we show that. I personally think most of it is biblical, but i disagree with anyone who think man in is evil state will ever choose God in his own free will, he never will, thats why calvinsm has the beautiful biblical teaching of regeneration, where God gives us a new heart and his spirit to respond to him out of our free will, not making us robots us most seem to interpret it, but you will not choose God unless your heart is changed by God. Please understand this is not to cause a debate but i see cavinism misunderstood, possibly because people put it before Christ himself then i know its wrong, but i personally see it as a revealing of what scripture already teaches. You have your own beliefs we just don't put isms behind it, you see you all have your own doctrine just not with a name.

I do agree there are much misunderstandings, but i hope you reckon many calvinists misunderstand arminians as well :-) . I have seen Arminians make wrong assumptions against calvinist and i have seen calvinist make wrong assumptions about arminians. The thing is if we now prefer a more reformed view or arminian it is easy that anything slightly left or right of us becomes "hyper".

So for a reformed brother meeting someone with a arminian understanding he instantly stamp him as a "grace robber" , "salvation by works" and so on. This is not necessary so in all cases. and also the other way around, myself did for a while beleieve all Calvinsim was hypercalvinism and i was frankly disgusted. now i am comforted to know "moderate" calvinists as Spurgeon and many others fight hypercalvinism with the same zeal as they do arminians ;-) .

But true humility sees and acknowledge in some areas they know not fully how it works.

For me if hypercalvinism where true, then nothing would be necessary since everything is already set in stone, no need for prayer, reading the word, helping others, giving etc. No thing you do can change anything. If the opposite is true, dont know if that is pelagius doctrine but i am sure we have some similar extreme in the other side of the spectrum. Then if that where true it seem unnecessary for God to even come out from heaven since we only need to do a lot of stuff ourselves and it really comes down to what we can do or not do.

And both i think are people who a long time ago stopped looking what scripture says and are just reading the word to find confirmation to what they already think is true.

But anyhow, I am absolutely sure i could have the sweetest fellowship both with Spurgeon , Edwards, Whitefield even tho on some points i dont agree fully, yet i recognize God was flowing through them in their time.

I just really think the issue is as Keith points out in the sermon, preach all of Gods word, preach His sovereignty, His working, His Drawing us, His keeping us. But if you do that and dont preach "make your election and calling sure" , "stand fast" , "hold fast" and all the ALL verses :-) you preaching your opinion on what scriptures are Gods word.

Lets be men and women that come clothe with Gods full amour, to only cover half our body with amour leaves us open for attacks by the enemy.

Its like you driving off to work and you forgot your pants, yourself convinced you are fully clothed.

Lets be men and women of the word of God in these last days. Whetever we have a slight reformed or arminian bent.

God bless you all

Christian

A quote from Andrew Murray,

"It is only when God's people stand as one body, one before God in the fellowship of love, one toward another in deep affection, one before the world in a love that the world can see; it is only then that they will have power to secure the blessing which they ask of God. Remember that if a vessel that ought to be one whole is cracked into many pieces, it cannot be filled. You can take a potsherd, one part of a vessel, and dip out a little water into that, but if you want the vessel full, the vessel must be whole. That is literally true of Christ's Church, and if there is one thing we must pray for still, it is this: Lord, melt us together into one by the power of the Holy Spirit, let the Holy Spirit, who at Pentecost made them all of one heart and one soul, do His blessed work among us. Praise God, we can love each other in a divine love, for "the fruit of the Spirit is love." Give yourselves up to love, and the Holy Spirit will come; receive the Spirit, and He will teach you to love more." - from his book, Absolute Surrender, Chapter 2: The Fruit Of The Spirit Is Love

Great Spurgeon quote brother Christian. I completely agree with what you were stating as well

But instead of looking to our view as maybe flawed or not complete we often chose to explain away the other passages that dont line up.

By doing what you quoted we limit our understanding of God and rather than searching His riches, we begin to define our own ideas. May God be merciful to us when we do this.

Lord bless!

David

I just really think the issue is as Keith points out in the sermon, preach all of Gods word, preach His sovereignty, His working, His Drawing us, His keeping us. But if you do that and dont preach "make your election and calling sure" , "stand fast" , "hold fast" and all the ALL verses you preaching your opinion on what scriptures are Gods word.

This is a key point, there must be balance, proper perspective and proportion.

There are many complementary truths that seem to come in "sets". For example the Bible pictures believers both here on earth with Christ in them and also seated in heavenly places in Christ. Others sets include;

God's sovereignty and man's responsibility
Divine will and man's will
Individual and corporate
Rational and mystical

These are areas where the enemy can actually use God's Word against us by securing an over-emphasis or an imbalanced understanding of God's truth, thereby closing the door to acceptance of what is of God.

In Christ,

Ron

From reading the posts and listening to some of the message, it sounds like the beef with Calvinism is hyper-Calvinisim (which is what Keith Daniel was preaching against). Calvinism itself is just what the Bible teaches. It encompasses God's will and man's response. I quote Spurgeon on the subject:

"I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what is nowadays called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel . . . unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the Cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called."

A good paper to read on what true Calvinism is (if you're interested) can be found here: http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/packer_intro.html . This paper succinctly presents what has come to be known as "Calvinism," though it is not in any way limited or even directly connected to Calvin or his teaching.

Balance or Tolerance

Tolerance in balance clothing is the subtle message that is more poisonous than the venom of the asp.

Such is the carnal reasoning of men who'd give lip service to Truth while kissing a lie.

If we'd receive the love of the Truth we'd violently cast out the mistress whose name is the lie.

Tolerance is the cry of false prophets and extolled by the masses as virtue. Not only has this become the motto of americans but american christianity. Truth now takes a backseat to tolerance. Balance has become its undercover name.

The voice of the false prophet is a voice of mixture.

This generation,this country,this churchianity has been lulled to sleep being anesthetized over many years by these spiritual shots diluted in lengthy messages and story-telling. The Word of God not being the main course but used as an appetizer for the palatableness of human nature.

The emphasis has been taken off the Glory of God,His Christ, and His Grace in redemption to man and his intrinsic value.

I listened to this message by Keith in its entirety and it was strewn with all of the above.

Sadly the majority will give a completely opposite report.

His tightrope act was the spectacle to have the crowd gaze upon this feat which only a man such as himself would attempt to accomplish as he says more than once.

He then misrepresents truths of Scripture men of old have so aptly contended for, only to promote that hideous and sinister doctrine of man known as free will.

Constantine's tolerance in Rome has become the softer and more acceptable balance of syncretism.

It is the humanism of our day cloaked in false humilty and a counterfeit love.

Yes! These three do remain...faith,hope,and love the greatest of these being love. But notice that of these three the greatest is love. Truth is absent among them as Truth gives definition to all. Yes! God is love. But He is the God of Truth and the Spirit of Truth. Jesus is not only the Life and the Way but the Truth. And the Truth shall make you free.

A very telling aspect of a corrupted society as well as a corrupted christianized people whether outside or inside a church building is when tolerance is seen as a virtue.

Revival has much in common with unity among believers. But not in unity alone, but in unity in the Truth.

The christian virtue of intolerance must be brought to the forefront if we would honor God alone and not seek the honor of men.

"Intolerance - Want of toleration; the not enduring at all or not suffering to exist without persecution; as the intolerance of a prince or a church towards a religious sect." (Webster)

Be not deceived. This kind of preaching exhibited here will not save souls nor bring true unity as Christ prayed for. It will do more harm than good, muddying the waters of the pure gospel waters of Life, of which the wisdom which is from above flows out of the fountain of Truth.

The previous poster provided a link which I would to God that many would take the time to read.

God's Gospel is worth fighting for,dying for and making enemies for.

"When principles that run against your deepest convictions begin to win the day, then battle is your calling, and peace has become sin; you must, at the price of dearest peace, lay your convictions bare before friend and enemy, with all the fire of your faith." (A.K.)

In His Spirit of Love and Truth,

Savannah

In His Spirit of Love and Truth,

I will quote John Piper that speaks of Charles Simeon:

[i]iBut he had little sympathy for uncharitable Calvinists. In a sermon on Romans 9:16, he said, Many there are who cannot see these truths [the doctrines of God's sovereignty], who yet are in a state truly pleasing to God; yea many, at whose feet the best of us may be glad to be found in heaven. It is a great evil, when these doctrines are made a ground of separation one from another, and when the advocates of different systems anathematize each other[/i]

Savannah wrote:

Tolerance in balance clothing is the subtle message that is more poisonous than the venom of the asp.

By just reading the scriptures and not taking any particular pre-conceived view, I have for a number of years now come to the same conclusion on the issue of election/free will, eternal secuirity/need for continuing in faith as Brother Keith. He gave enough scriptures that clearly talk about man's responsibility as well as predestination and choosing (in fact there are more on our responsibility than on God's choosing and predestination).

I think one of the important points made on this message was about the eternal nature of God and that He is not limited to time and space. Therefore He is already in the future (as we understand it) and the past is just as present to Him now as the our present time. I cannot get my head around this, but it must be true if God is God! So when we speak of predestination and choosing, it is based on the 'foreknowledge' of God. Foreknowledge is a term that we relate to, but as far as God is concerned He has ALWAYS known everything. So in that sense it has already happened as far as God is concerned. We cannot comprehend this and we might blow a fuse trying to understand it....this is because we only know that which relates to time and space. So when we 'mere men' try and explain the process of God's working in salvation, we will always fall short and rather that just except we are limited in this, we become very dogmatic that our particular explanation is right.

Please beware of the admonision in 1 Corinthians 1 and 3 about aligning yourself with any one particular teacher. Do not say you are a Calvanist or a Wesleyian, they are mere men who God choose to use in their day.

Be not deceived. This kind of preaching exhibited here will not save souls nor bring true unity as Christ prayed for. It will do more harm than good, muddying the waters of the pure gospel waters of Life, of which the wisdom which is from above flows out of the fountain of Truth.

Keith Daniel has brought salvation to hundreds of souls, including pastors and staunch evolutionist scientists, and drug addicts. He stayed very closed to the scriptures and aligned those emphasizing predistination, election and security with those that emphasize free will, devotion to God and works.

As in architecture, there is an inbuilt tension between these truths, but because they found upon the rock which is Christ and joined together with other eternal truths, the whole thing is very stable and solid.

God used both Calvinists and Arminianst leaning people for winning souls in the past and will so in the future. God is much more interested in the man himself than his form of doctrine.

Heydave wrote:

Do not say you are a Calvanist or a Wesleyian, they are mere men who God choose to use in their day.

Hi everyone,

God's Gospel is worth fighting for,dying for and making enemies for.

I suppose that one of the worst things would be to find out that we made ourselves an enemy of God by fighting against his people.

Thinking that we were doing Him a service.

The religous Jews of the time were certainly at least two things, [b]before they became murderers of God's people[/b]:

Certain that they were right(John 9:28)

Zealous for what they were certain was the pure religon of God(Acts 21:28)

Besides that though, Paul the Apostle said they were:

contrary to all men.

[i]edited to add refrences[/i]

God used both Calvinists and Arminianst leaning people for winning souls in the past and will so in the future. God is much more interested in the man himself than his form of doctrine.

How many trillions of arguments would this instantly quash. But I suppose that, even then, some would still kick against the pricks.

Amen to ChrisJd. I just listened to the message by David Legge from the Revival Conference in Wales, "God's New Thing", and he made a very valid point regarding the Pharisees, that they were a revival movement originally, but were so scripturallly correct (my words, not a quote) that they missed the Messiah. Jesus said to them, "you search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life, it is these that testify of me..." It is extremely sad to see the very thing that dear Keith Daniel is trying to accomplish through the quoting of many scriptures and many references to church history, being thrown aside by the same kind of pharisaical pride with which the very Messiah was rejected. Paul said, 1 Corinthians 8:1b-3 (NASB)
1 ... we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies.
2 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know;
3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.

So very sad to see a man of God like Kieth Daniel denigrated and accused falsely by the same kind of arrogance that has caused and continues to cause division and must undoubtedly bring offense to God, in the name of "pure doctrine". To quote him on another occassion regarding one of the giants of soul winning in the past, "when you have won as many souls to Christ as him, then you may criticize, but not until sir"...
Those who bear in their very bodies and in their lives the scars of battle for Christ and His Word, whose lives are full of the fruit of God's holiness, we ought to be very careful in critiquing lest we find ourselves claiming to uphold scripture and violating it by our words: Romans 14:4 (ESV)
4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Clint

Another quote from Andrew Murray:
"Think of the church at large. What divisions! Think of the different bodies. Take the question of holiness, take the question of the cleansing blood, take the question of the baptism of the Spirit; what differences are caused among dear believers by such questions! That there are differences of opinion does not trouble me. We do not have the same constitution and temperament and mind. But how often hate, bitterness, contempt, seperation, unlovingness are caused by the holiest truths of God's Word! Our doctrines, our creeds, have been more important than love. We often think we are valiant for the truth and we forget God's command to speak the truth in love. And it was so in the time of the Reformation between the Lutheran and Calvinistic churches. What bitterness there was then in regard to the Holy Supper, which was meant to be the bond of union among all believers! And so, down the ages, the very dearest truths of God have become mountains that have seperated us.
If we want to pray in power, and if we want to expect the Holy Spirit to come down in power, and if we want indeed that God shall pour out His Spirit, we must enter into a covenant with God that we love one another with a heavenly love.
Are you ready for that? Only that is true love that is large enough to take in all God's children, the most unloving and unlovvable, and unbearable, and trying." - from his book "Absolute Surrender", Chapter 2: The Fruit Of The Spirit Is Love

So very sad to see a man of God like Kieth Daniel denigrated and accused falsely by the same kind of arrogance that has caused and continues to cause division and must undoubtedly bring offense to God, in the name of "pure doctrine". To quote him on another occassion regarding one of the giants of soul winning in the past, "when you have won as many souls to Christ as him, then you may criticize, but not until sir"...

Correct doctrine is very important - but it is not the [i]most[/i] important. I'm sure a few reformed brethren reading that just gasped and lost whatever little respect they still had for me. But the truth is that even more important than having 100% correct doctrine is having a conscience void of offense and a fervent love for God and the soul of one's neighbor. Doctrine-tweaking comes later, gradually, as we get more light and revelation on scripture. I tell you, if you have the former, God is able to take care of all the doctrinal details and soundly save whosoever is drawn to the bleeding Saviour...irrespective of Calvinism or Arminianism.

Men with 100% correct doctrine but with no love murdered Jesus. They murdered Him because He didn't perform the way they expected Him to; He didn't keep the Sabbath the way the perfect doctrine of Moses taught them to. He allowed a man to carry his bed on a Sabbath, when another man carrying mere [i]sticks[/i] was stoned to death under Moses. This spirit is of the same critical shortsightedness that fuels every attack against Finney and Wesley; men speaking of things they have no understanding of, destroying another brother's character because his confession of faith or method of ministry doesn't line up exactly with their traditional Mosaic (i.e. Arminius or Calvin) prototype of ministry or confession.

Men with 100% correct doctrine but with no love murdered Jesus.

So very sad to see a man of God like Kieth Daniel denigrated and accused falsely by the same kind of arrogance that has caused and continues to cause division and must undoubtedly bring offense to God, in the name of "pure doctrine". To quote him on another occassion regarding one of the giants of soul winning in the past, "when you have won as many souls to Christ as him, then you may criticize, but not until sir"...

Very well put Broclit and Paul. There are strong undercurrents of the nature of the Pharisees among God's people today and it even comes through their typing.

We all need to get before God, die to self and let Him do the work instead of us correcting each others doctrines as if that'll bring revival.

Here are two quotes from Tozer, 'The persuit of God'.

[b]'Important as it is that we recognise God working in us, I would warn against a too-great pre-occupation with the thought. It is a sure road to sterile passivity. God will not hold us responsible to understand the mysteries of election, predestination and divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these truths is to raise our eyes to God and in deepest reverence say, 'O Lord, Thou knowest.' Those things belong to the deep and mysterious profound of God's omniscience. Prying into them may make theologians,[/b] [i][b]but it will never make saints'.[/b][/i]

and then...

[b]'Let any man turn to God in earnest, let him begin to exercise himself unto godliness, let him seek to develop his powers of spiritual receptivity by trust and obedience and humility and the results will exceed anything he may have hoped for in his leaner and weaker days.'[/b]

"Behold, my eye has seen all this, my ear has heard and understood it.
Job 13:2 What you know, I also know; I am not inferior to you.
Job 13:3 But I would speak to the Almighty, and I desire to argue my case with God.
Job 13:4 As for you, you whitewash with lies; worthless physicians are you all.
Job 13:5 Oh that you would keep silent, and it would be your wisdom!
Job 13:6 Hear now my argument and listen to the pleadings of my lips.
Job 13:7 Will you speak falsely for God and speak deceitfully for him?
Job 13:8 Will you show partiality toward him? Will you plead the case for God?
Job 13:9 Will it be well with you when he searches you out? Or can you deceive him, as one deceives a man?
Job 13:10 He will surely rebuke you if in secret you show partiality.
Job 13:11 Will not his majesty terrify you, and the dread of him fall upon you?
Job 13:12 Your maxims are proverbs of ashes; your defenses are defenses of clay.
Job 13:13 "Let me have silence, and I will speak, and let come on me what may.
Job 13:14 Why should I take my flesh in my teeth and put my life in my hand?
Job 13:15 Though he slay me, I will hope in him; yet I will argue my ways to his face.
Job 13:16 This will be my salvation, that the godless shall not come before him.
Job 13:17 Keep listening to my words, and let my declaration be in your ears.
Job 13:18 Behold, I have prepared my case; I know that I shall be in the right.
Job 13:19 Who is there who will contend with me? For then I would be silent and die.

SPEC'ULATIVE, a.

1. Given to speculation; contemplative; applied to persons. The mind of man being by nature speculative-

2. Formed by speculation; theoretical; ideal; not verified by fact, experiment or practice; as a scheme merely speculative.

SENTIMENT'AL, a.

1. Abounding with sentiment, or just opinions or reflections; as a sentimental discourse.

2. Expressing quick intellectual feeling.

3. Affecting sensibility; in a contemptuous sense.

YOU'VE GIVEN PURELY SPECULATIVE & SENTIMENTAL REPLIES BUT NO WORD OF TRUTH FROM GOD.

Here are some of those replies:

"Men with 100% correct doctrine but with no love murdered Jesus."

This statement is not the truth. See below re: Pharisee

"Sometimes I think that if Christ were to be transfigured on the mount today, I wouldn't be in the least surpised if with Him appeared John Calvin and Jakob Arminius instead of Moses and Elijah."

The above suggestiveness implied here is not even worth commenting upon but rather to be cast down with all and any similar vain imaginations.

One accurate observation which rings eerily of truth is this:

"Guess one of the reasons he can preach this is cuz everybody already respects him so much!"

Many have become respecters of mens persons receiving honor from one another and not the honor which comes from God alone.

John 5:44 How can ye believe, who receive honor one from another, and seek not the honor that cometh from God only?

"There are strong undercurrents of the nature of the Pharisees among God's people today and it even comes through their typing."

And just who are those Pharisees.

Pharisee/ Pharisaical/ Pharisaism

Pharisee, n. [Heb. to separate.] One of a sect among the Jews, whose religion consisted in a strict observance of rites and ceremonies and of the traditions of the elders,and whose pretended holiness led them to separate themselves as a sect, considering themselves as more righteous than other Jews.

Pharisaicical, a. [from Pharisee.] Pertaining to the Pharisees; resembling the Pharisees, a sect among the Jews, distinguished by their zeal for the traditions of the elders, and by their exact observance of these traditions and the ritual law. Hence pharisaic denotes addicted to external forms and ceremonies; making a show of religion without the spirit of it; as pharisaic holiness.

Pharisaism, n. The notions, doctrines and conduct of the Pharisees, as a sect.

1. Rigid observance of external forms of religion without genuine piety; hypocrisy in religion.

Mat 16:5,6,11,12 And when his disciples had come to the farther shore, they had forgotten to take bread with them. And he said to them: Take heed, and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees...How is it that ye do not understand that it was not concerning bread that I spoke to you; but that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? Then understood they, that he did not bid them beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

The doctrine of the Pharisees was not orthodoxy but heterodoxy.

Orthodoxy, n. 1. Soundness of faith; a belief in the genuine doctrines taught in the Scriptures.

2. Consonance to genuine scriptural doctrines; as the orthodoxy of a creed.

Heterodoxy, n. Heresy; an opinion or doctrine contrary to the doctrines of the Scriptures, or contrary to those of an established church.

Matt 15:6-9 And [thus] ye make void the word of God, for the sake of your tradition. Ye hypocrites, well did the prophet Isaiah prophesy of you, and say: This people honoreth me with the lips, but their heart is far from me. And in vain they pay me homage, while they teach doctrines that are the precepts of men.

Pharisees indeed worship, but in vain.

John 4:23,24 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

John 14:16,17 And I will ask of my Father, and he will give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, and knoweth him not: but ye know him, because he abideth with you, and is in you.

Modern-day Pharisees are very morally religious zealous persons. They strive to keep God's law, and they are zealous in their religious duties. They are diligent to worship God. They are outwardly upright citizens. They keep themselves from and preach against moral evil.
Thus far, this could describe any professing Christian. But these things are not what distinguish the true Christians from the modern-day Pharisees and their followers. What distinguishes them is their DOCTRINE.

In addition to being moral and religious and zealous, modern-day Pharisees and their followers believe that people's own efforts, enabled by God, make the difference between salvation and damnation. They believe that salvation is ultimately up to what the sinner does with (adds to) Christ's work.

This includes many who believe that Jesus Christ's blood atoned for everyone without exception. They believe that, since Christ has done everything He could do for everyone in the whole world, it is now up to the sinner to make the difference in his destiny. They believe that those who are now burning in hell are those for whom Christ died but who failed to make use of Christ's blood and get themselves to heaven and who made Christ's blood of no effect because of their failure to secure their own salvation. They look upon the wicked people of the world thinking that what makes the difference between the wicked people and them is that they made themselves to differ by accepting the atonement that was made for everyone without exception. This includes many who believe that one can lose his salvation by what he does, thus believing that one can gain his salvation back by what he does.

Such is the nature of the real Pharisee.

This includes many who reckon all professing Christians who are moral to be saved in spite of their doctrine.

1 Tim 4:16 Take heed to thyself and to thy doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou wilt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

2 Tim 3:8-17 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so also do these withstand the truth: men whose mind is corrupted, and [they] reprobates from the faith. But they will not make progress, for their infatuation will be understood by every one, as theirs also was understood. But thou hast followed after my doctrine, and my manner of life, and my aims, and my faith, and my long suffering, and my love, and my patience, and my persecution, and my sufferings. And thou knowest what I endured at Antioch, and at Iconium, and at Lystra; what persecution I endured: and from all these my Lord delivered me. And likewise all, who choose to live in the fear of God, in Jesus the Messiah, will be persecuted. But evil and seducing men will add to their wickedness, while they deceive and are deceived. But continue thou in the things thou hast learned and been assured of; for thou knowest from whom thou learnedst; because from thy childhood, thou wast taught the holy books, which can make thee wise unto life, by faith in Jesus the Messiah. All scripture that was written by the Spirit, is profitable for instruction, and for confutation, and for correction, and for erudition in righteousness; that the man of God may become perfect, and complete for every good work.

I employ no labels nor names of men, and care not to be lumped together with any but the true saints of God who are the called, called by His Name.

In His Spirit of Love and Truth,

Savannah

2 John 1:1-6 THE ELDER, To the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all those who have come to know the truth, on account of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. I rejoiced greatly that I have found some of your children walking in truth, just as we received commandment from the Father. And now I ask you, lady, not as writing a new commandment to you, but one which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

Hi everyone,

Savannah,

What exactly is anyone supposed to be responding to with "NO WORD OF TRUTH FROM GOD.?", as you put it?

"Men with 100% correct doctrine but with no love murdered Jesus."

This statement is not the truth. See below re: Pharisee

Well, why isn't it? The Lord Jesus said to the people that they did not have the love of God in them(John 5:42), and as for their doctrine, He said that the religous leaders sat in Moses seat and told the people to do as they said, but not as they did.

So what is the point here, to split hairs for something?

[b]Fine points can either draw straight lines or be used to stab and pierce, it all depends on whose hands its in.[/b]

One accurate observation which rings eerily of truth is this:

"Guess one of the reasons he can preach this is cuz everybody already respects him so much!"

So what? Was the poster lifting this man up as God or above Christ! Outrageous. No, but Paul told Timothy to make full proof of his ministry. And even Paul expected that his words should have some weight among those that he spoke to, because they knew him and his ministry(2Ti 3:10, Phm 1:9), and I don't think that the poster had anything else in mind but that, and that the people here are well aware of Brother Keith's ministry now though contact with him.

You, Savannah, in my poor estimation, are acting like an obnoxious child.

1 Cor. 4:2-4 Now it is required of stewards, that each be found faithful. But to me, it is a light matter to be judged of by you, or by any man whatever; nay, I am no judge of myself. (For I am not conscious in myself of any thing [flagrant]; yet I am not by this justified; for the Lord is my judge.)

Tit 2:6-8 the younger men likewise exhort to be sober-minded: in all things showing thyself an ensample of good works; in thy doctrine showing uncorruptness, gravity, sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of us.

Tit. 2:1 But speak thou the things that become sound doctrine: holding fast to the faithful word as he was taught, that he may be able to exhort by sound doctrine, and to convince those who oppose it. (Tit. 1:9)

Prov. 4:1,2 Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding.
For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.

A second witness:

Prov. 4:2 For I give you good doctrine,.... Whose author, matter, use, and tendency, are good, and therefore should be received; so the Gospel is called, 1 Tim.4:6; and no other is here meant: it is the doctrine concerning Wisdom or Christ, as the following verses show; which serves to exalt him, and makes for the good and welfare of immortal souls; and such is the doctrine of the Scriptures, of Christ and his apostles, even all the doctrines and truths of the Gospel;

forsake you not my law; or "doctrine" not the law given on Mount Sinai, but the doctrine of Christ, which goes out from Mount Zion: this the children of Wisdom should not neglect, relinquish, drop, or depart from; but should keep it, and abide by it. (John G.)

May we be ever the more careful not to offend our God and Saviour as we are to offend others.

May we be ever the more careful not to offend our God and Saviour as we are to offend others.

They are one and the same. That is offending God, or the others that belong to Him. Acts 9:4

Job was self-righteous until God spoke to him. When one hears God speak one will know what it means to live by faith.

Job 42:5\t"I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You.

Job 42:6\tTherefore I abhor [myself], And repent in dust and ashes."

Pastor Daniel has much wisdom. His message, as he himself testified of, is simply the verses found in the Holy Scriptures. I have found that the Holy Scriptures are sufficient for understanding, for doctrine, for exhortation, and for correction.

There was a time in my born again life, in the very beginning, where my spirit struggled against Scriptures which pertained to Roman 3. For about a year I strove against the message of Romans 3. Eveytime I found this precept, New Testatment or Old Testament my spirit did not want to accept what Romans 3 taught. I search and searched the Scriptures trying to find a way around what Paul taught. I strove for a way to explain away man's inability to serve God in his flesh. Then one day a young pastor said these words...It's in the bible so I believe it." That night I gave up the struggle. I gave up striving against the word of God. That submission to the Scriptures opened up for me a book that was once locked. Scriptures that were once a riddle were now opened to me in a way that I had never seen before.

I exhort all to give up if you strive against what Pastor Daniel preached about. All means all. If means If. Many are called but few are chosen. One is saved if one continues to the end...

Give up and find His voice.

In Christ
Jeff

I guess I'm not sure how Keith Daniel's sermon is supposed to be "balanced", or a plea for "balance". He pretty must just articulated rank-and-file modern day Arminianism. Where was the balance between Calvinism and Arminianism?

With care in Christ...

Taylor

Eccl. 12:11 The words of the wise are like goads, and the words of scholars are like well-driven nails, given by one Shepherd.

Do you ever find yourself kicking against the goad? Does your spirit ever strive with what the word of God says?

In Christ
Jeff

Rookie,

When it comes to Cal vs. Arm, no, I really don't find myself doing a lot of kicking. I trust that it's completely impossible to come to God without the Father enabling a man to come, and I know that Jesus can still weep over Jerusalem.

I don't kick against any Scrupture in affirming I was ordained to eternal life by the grace of God, totally unable to come to God without His regenerating grace, and that I'll be preserved until that great day.

With care in Christ...

Taylor wrote:

I trust that it's completely impossible to come to God without the Father enabling a man to come, and I know that Jesus can still weep over Jerusalem.

Yes the Scriptures do teach that it is impossible for man to come to God without the Father's enabling. But in your statement of belief I have not heard that you believe that man is given the ability to reject God.

The Scriptures teach that the first two men rejected the Father even though He enabled them to know Him. Adam is the first man who freely had the tree of life to eat from. Cain is the first son of Adam. Cain repeatedly rejected the Father's call. Abel on the other hand was the first prophet of God and also the first son of God.

The parable of the sower of the seed teaches that man is able to reject God. Why do you not believe the Scriptures?

In Christ
Jeff

Why do you not believe the Scriptures?

Easy, friend. You mean, "why do you not believe my interpretation of the Scriptures?" Let's keep some humility in here - either one of us [i]could[/i] be wrong. These kinds of statements are symptoms of the kind of false "balance" I pointed out regarding this sermon. You want "balance", but then if someone doesn't pretty much affirm standard Arminianism, you claim they "don't believe the Scriptures". That's not a balance between Arminianism and Calvinism - it's just plain old Arminianism. I don't desire to respond if that is the attitude. Let's at least give each other the benefit of the doubt that we both "believe the Scriptures" with a clear conscience according to the light we have each been given.

Pressing on with you, brother...

There are times when we must press....

What do you believe in terms of God giving man the ability to reject Him? Adam and Cain are given to us as examples. Likewise Proverbs chapter one and Romans chapter one teaches this precept.

Have you preceived this in Scripture?

In Christ
Jeff

rookie,

Yes, I agree, man has the ability and the desire to reject God, and man exercises that ability.

With care in Christ...

What did Christ's death at Calvary accomplish?

What did Christ's death at Calvary accomplish?

Rom 5:9\tMuch more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Rom 5:10\tFor if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

His death reconciled us to the Father, but we are saved from the wrath of the Father by Christ's life.

What is the "life" that saves?

In Christ
Jeff

rookie wrote:
What is the "life" that saves?

I would understand, in context, for the resurrection of Christ to be spoken of by His life.

rookie wrote:
His death reconciled us to the Father, but we are saved from the wrath of the Father by Christ's life.

Who is 'us' and 'we'?

I would understand, in context, for the resurrection of Christ to be spoken of by His life.

Yes, because Christ has risen and sits at the right hand of the Father, He lives....

........................................................................................................................Romans 6:10\t For [the death] that He died, He died to sin once for all; but [the life] that He lives, He lives to God.
........................................................................................................................

"He lives to God." And for what purpose?

......................................................................................................................Hbr 7:25\t Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
....................................................................................................................

So we see that Christ is "able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him." The purpose for why He lives is found in the second part of the verse, " He always lives to make intercession for them."

I know little of greek or hebrew. With that said, the word "to make intercession" in the greek means:

1) to light upon a person or a thing, fall in with, hit upon, a person or a thing
2) to go to or meet a person, esp. for the purpose of conversation, consultation, or supplication

The the substance of this action is to bring light to a person through conversation or consultation. Jesus promised this interaction to His disciples....

...............................................................................................................
Jhn 16:13\tHowever, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own [authority], but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
Jhn 16:14\tHe will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare [it] to you.
...................................................................................................................

The Spirit brings to us His counsel. The purpose of this counsel it to tell us of things to come in our own lives. For those who hear and do, these will grow in understanding and knowledge of Him who lives to glorify His Father. We enter into a relationship which we too will learn from our Lord the means by which we can glorify God in our present life. It is this "life" that Jesus declares to those who remain in the vine.

Who is 'us' and 'we'?

.....................................................................................................................
Mar 4:13\tAnd He said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?
Mar 4:14\tThe sower sows the word.
Mar 4:15\tAnd these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Mar 4:16\tThese likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mar 4:17\tand they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble.
Mar 4:18\tNow these are the ones sown among thorns; [they are] the ones who hear the word,
Mar 4:19\tand the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
Mar 4:20\tBut these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept [it], and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred."
..................................................................................................................

"us" are those who are spoken of in the parable of the sower of the seed. "We" are those who continue on learning day by day, going from glory to glory, ever increasing in the knowledge and understanding of the work of our Savior in our lives. His work in our lives prepares us so that we might bear fruit, that we might be a light in the darkness. That others might see the glory of Christ in us so that they might too be saved.

This is Paul's prayer...

.....................................................................................................
2Th 1:11\tTherefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of [His] goodness and the work of faith with power,
2Th 1:12\tthat the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
.........................................................................................................

So that the world might know that we have been with Christ. So that the world would witness the glory of Christ in our lives.....

Here's a quote taken from the Preface of Lewis Bayly's book, Practice Of Piety: .."when the disciples of Jesus dispute by the way about the preference due to themselves and their opinions, they are seeking their own preeminence and not their Master's glory."

rookie wrote:
His death reconciled us to the Father, but we are saved from the wrath of the Father by Christ's life.

rookie wrote:
"us" are those who are spoken of in the parable of the sower of the seed. "We" are those who continue on learning day by day, going from glory to glory, ever increasing in the knowledge and understanding of the work of our Savior in our lives. His work in our lives prepares us so that we might bear fruit, that we might be a light in the darkness. That others might see the glory of Christ in us so that they might too be saved.

Can you be more specific? From your response, the 'us' that are reconciled are all the soils and the 'we' that are saved are made of only the good soil? Is that what you're saying?

Can you be more specific? From your response, the 'us' that are reconciled are all the soils and the 'we' that are saved are made of only the good soil? Is that what you're saying?

The writer of the book of Hebrews says this to those in Jerusalem...

.............................................................................................................
Hbr 5:9\tAnd having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Hbr 5:10\tcalled by God as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek,"
Hbr 5:11\tof whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
Hbr 5:12\tFor though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need [someone] to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
Hbr 5:13\tFor everyone who partakes [only] of milk [is] unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe.
Hbr 5:14\tBut solid food belongs to those who are of full age, [that is], those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
...................................................................................................................

In this section of Scripture we learn this precept. The writer is not able to go into greater detail in explaining the work of our High Priest. The writer declares that the people "have become dull of hearing." And for this reason the writer knows that his effort would be fruitless because the people would not understand. The writer then explains to the people how one's hearing is sharpened. He chastens the people because they are still in need of milk which represents a baby''s understanding of spiritual things. The writer then points to the only way one may grow to eat the meat of the word of God...

.....................................................................................................................
Hebrews 5:14\tBut solid food belongs to those who are of full age, [that is], those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
...............................................................................................................

By reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Those who are dull of hearing are those who have not allowed the word of God to have it's way in their hearts. They have not submitted to the power of God which is able to show them the intents of their own hearts. The writer in another place says this of Scripture...

...................................................................................................................
Hbr 4:12\tFor the word of God [is] living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
.................................................................................................................

Now having established this point let us now go to the parable of the seed and the sower. In this section of Scripture we find that Jesus says this to His disciples when they ask why He teaches in parables.

..................................................................................................................
Mat 13:15\tFor the hearts of this people have grown dull. [Their] ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with [their] eyes and hear with [their] ears, Lest they should understand with [their] hearts and turn, So that I should [fn] heal them.' [fn]
...................................................................................................................

Jesus tells His disciples that these people's hearts have grown dull, that their ears are hard of hearing, that their eyes they themselves have closed. Then Jesus goes on to say of these people that if they choose to see and if they choose to hear, and if they choose to submit to what they see and hear in a way that turn their hearts towards Him, then He would heal them. The parable of the sower highlights good and evil. It begins with the devil himself stealing the word of God that was sown in the hearts of those who are walking along the path of this world. The next progression are those who received the word with joy but lost heart because of the trials and tribulations that come from those who are of the seed of satan. Again this is another manifestation of evil. The third progression says that the word is choked out because of the cares of this world. Again this is one of satan's ways of dulling man's ears and thus removing the power of the word of God from it's appointed purpose. The purpose of the word of God is to enable us who continue to allow it's way in our hearts to show us the desires that we have are they of satan and his world, or are our desires for God.

This parable shows us a progression of how the word of God impacts the desires of the heart. You see, the Scriptures whether OT or NT teach that God's people are "called out" from the world. Only those who remain through patience and continue to allow the word of God to cast out what is not clean in one's heart, only those who submit to have their senses exercised, these are the one's who become fruitful, who become living fountains of water.

Jesus says this to His disciples.....

................................................................................................................
Mark 4:13\t And He said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?
..............................................................................................................

Without allowing the word of God it's way, one will not understand all the other parables which speak of the nature of evil and good.

In Christ
Jeff

To expand upon what I wrote in the last post....

The emphasis of this parable is focused on the power of the word of God placed in the heart of the individual. What must be understood is that each individual of each group does not start out with a difference in heart. We all begin with the same type of heart (soil).

.................................................................................................................
Rom 8:6\t \tFor to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Rom 8:7\t \tBecause the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8\t \tSo then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
...................................................................................................................

With this said then the proper emphasis can be seen and rightly placed on the power of the word of God to bring "Life" to an individual who live by faith.
In this parable there are 4 distinctions made based on a duration of time.

.............................................................................................................
Mar 4:15\tAnd these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.
...............................................................................................................

This first group had the word of God sown in their hearts but immediately they choose to listen to Satan and the word did not germinate.

............................................................................................................
Mar 4:16\tThese likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mar 4:17\tand they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble.
..............................................................................................................

The second group experiences growth but only for a short time. When the agents of satan bring trials and persecution, these who have not faithfully continued in the word of God fall away. They could not support themselves in their own strength. They did not persevere to the point where one would discover the self sustaining power of the word of God to quench the thirst that comes with these types of trials

...........................................................................................................
Mar 4:18\tNow these are the ones sown among thorns; [they are] the ones who hear the word,
Mar 4:19\tand the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
...............................................................................................................
The third group lives for a greater period of time. We see that the cares of this world, the thorn and thistle grow along with the word of God. Again it is the devices of Satan who through temptations of pride of life, lust of the eyes, and the lust of the flesh, choke out the vitality that the word of God brings to those who faithfully continue.
.......................................................................................

to be continued...I have to leave for church.