Are you a Starved Christian who has never experienced the Glory of God?

Thanks for that, Frank, very much.

I've been thinking a lot along this line of late, and have been reading Isaiah Ch.6 and Malachi Ch.3 over and over again.

God said He would send His messenger to "make ready a people prepared for the Lord" Lk. 1.17.

I believe we are closer to being that prepared people when we are crying out how undone we are, how unclean we are, how in need of Him we are, how we can't live this Christian life without Him any more.

When we are feeling dry, and empty, and barren, this is evidence of His workings in our lives: He is preparing us for His appearing.

"But who may abide the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appeareth? For He is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's soap."

Oh, how He longs to come forth like this! And when we are feeling the same passion and longing, aware of a need that only Fire can answer, we are closer to being ready!

Blessed are the poor, the meek, the weak, the hungry, the blind. Woe to the rich, the comfortable, the complacent, the satisfied, the seeing.

An hour is at hand when we are going to see the fulfillment of prophecy: 1 Sam. 2.1-10, and Lk.1.46-55. "The poor have the gospel preached unto them, and the rich He hath sent empty away."

We have had the Gospel preached unto us, I know.

But again I say, we have not yet had the Gospel preached unto us.

...I found this very moving:

"Oh God restore thy glory by whomsoever thou wilt restore thy glory."

Do we-- do I-- love His glory so much that it doesn't matter to me anymore whether He uses me or not in bringing it back? If He uses another, and puts me on the shelf... will I rejoice just as greatly to see His glory return?

Oh Father, help paulmcg1 to see . . .

If you do not see Him, how can you love Him?

"You'll never convince me that there's revival in America, I'm too smart to know that... I'll bring statistics that will drown you."

-Leonard Ravenhill

I understand what people mean when they say the glory of the Lord is all around us. It's true in a sense.

But if you look up and read the passages in Scripture that tell what happened when the glory of the Lord filled the house of God, or when different ones saw His glory-- they were on their faces, or they could not stand to minister... THIS is the kind of glory Isaiah was prophesying of.

What Isaiah meant in Ch. 6, when the seraphim cried out, "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts, the whole earth is filled with His glory," this is a prophetic word.

There is coming a time-- the LORD has sworn it will happen-- when "all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD" (Num. 14.21).

In another place Isaiah prophesied, "The earth shall be full of the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea" (Isa. 11.9, see also Hab. 2.14).

We are not there yet, obviously. Far from it. Not even the church yet is filled with the glory of the Lord. Far, far from it. But it shall be. (Eph. 3.21). This ought to be the one burden of all Christians, particularly of those who are in a place of leadership.

We dont see the glory of God because we dont know the pentecostle fire. The tragedy of today is that people are deceived into believing in the counterfeit.

Holiness movement is not holy anymore, pentecostal movement is not pentecostal anymore, fundamentalists movement has grieved the holy Spirit with their dead formality. Legalsism, wild fire, dead othodoxy, these are the effects that we reap in our churches today.

Appolus:

"They have never heard God preached about so high and lifted up that they went home in silence and would'nt talk. When A.B.Simpson preached in Buffalo, New York, he preached on the glory of Jesus Christ and when he was finished , they dismissed the meeting and no one got out of their seats. They sat there because they were afraid to get up and walk around in the presence of God. But a whole generation of young people have never seen anything like that. "Oh God restore thy glory by whomsoever thout wilt restore thy glory." (Tozer,Fellowship of the Burning Heart)

This was old time religion in america. Whether you went to holiness, pentecostal or fundamentalist churches in those days, preachers were endowed with power from on high and you would have felt the power of the Spirit bringing conviction to sinners.

Perhaps you are a young person who has never experienced what Tozer was writing about?

Yes I am :-( ... and I'm fully aware of that lack. So what advice does Tozer give to such a person?

I guess seek, knock and keep knocking?

paulmcg1 wrote:
Again, these are all silly experiences that you and everyone else think your having. They aren't the presence of the Lord.

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

- John 14:16-23

Again, these are all silly experiences that you and everyone else think your having. They aren't the presence of the Lord.

Hey paulmcg1:

I think you could draw a distinction between the presence of God and the manifest presence of God.

For example, in the book of Hebrews we find it recorded that the Lord said, "I will never leave you or forsake you." As a born again believer I walk continually in the presence of the Lord. He is always with me. I know this two ways. First, He said it in His word, therefore I put faith in it and believe it. Second, I often feel His presence, although I know He is with me even when I don't feel anything at all.

The manifest presence of God is just that. He manifests His presence in a tangible way. I remember reading first hand accounts of Azusa Street in the early 1900's when the fire department showed up to put out the "fire" that everyone saw coming from the roof of the building. Fingers and at one time an arm miraculously grew back where they had been cut off in accidents. Smith Wigglesworth saw countless miracles.

It is entirely natural for us to desire to see God manifest His presence and power in a tangible way. For Paul the apostle, this was his normal mode of operation. He said that he came not with enticing words of mans wisdom, but in demonstration of power. Look at the miracles that accompanied his ministry.

When I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I began to worship the Lord, praying in another tongue. After a bit I began to sing praises to the Lord, again in another tongue, and in a melody I had never heard before. A friend of mine received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the same time. I noticed after a bit that I was not singing alone, but a beautiful duet with this friend of mine. Same words, same melody, both unknown to either of us. This went on for five or ten minutes as I recall.

Though it is wonderful to see the presence of God manifest in those ways, and since then I have seen countless healings and operations of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, I cannot rely on these things to "get me through" so to speak. God does desire that I learn to walk in faith in Him and in His word. What He says in His word should be as real, no make that MORE real to me than what I see with my own eyes. Has He not said that He has exalted His WORD even above His own NAME?

I walk each day by faith. Manifestations of His power are, I think, primarily used in ministry to others. I walk and live each day by faith in Him and in His word. This walk of faith, and my sensing and knowing His presence as I spend time with him is not a silly experience I think I am having. I am not convincing myself of something false. The witness and presence of His Holy Spirit within me that I have been born again is real, and very tangible.

I guess what I am saying is that one does not have to experience the manifest presence of God to know that God is present. It has been now a week and a half since I have seen a man healed of a chronic back condition. In that time I have experienced the sweet presence of God, but have seen absolutely no external manifestation of His power.

The word says that the just shall live by faith. It also says that as we have received Christ Jesus (by grace through faith right?), so we should walk in Him. Rooted and built up and established in our faith.

Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, have an academic philosophy (I believe inspired by Satan himself), but totally based on man's faulty thinking. They don't know or understand the presence of God. I do. I live in His presence, walk in His presence, and usually do so by faith, not by what my physical eyes see. Remember we walk by faith, not by sight.

Brother, God loves you and wants to manifest Himself to you, but you are going to have to receive Him by faith. He wants to daily manifest His presence to you, but it will usually not be by signs and wonders. He delights in you, and is pleased when you walk with Him by faith. It is faith that pleases God.

God bless you Paul, and I am praying for you.

Travis.

paulmcg1 wrote:

Again, these are all silly experiences that you and everyone else think your having. They aren't the presence of the Lord.

God bless you brother! :-)

The Lord has a funny way of revealing Himself to us sometimes. I pray for this kind if revealing for you.

I've never experienced it but I'm hungry too..I have so despaired at the lack luster, routine, predictable services, where little by little, people who are hurting and have tremendous needs are just leaving and not coming back. Where I have to make myself go, dreading the weekend and wondering how I'm going to make it through another service without thinking something critical or wrong, disgusted with the religion and knowing this isn't how it's supposed to be. Where are the signs that are supposed to follow them who believe? Where is the piercing discernment that someone who's been in the presence of God won't be fooled by anything and can speak life from the pulpit because he speaks for God not about Him?

I long to see and be a part of what you describe..I'm so tired of what I've seen and heard. If that's all there is, they can have it, I don't want it. I know there's more...

quick Edit**:
I have experienced it in a measure in my home, in my room, where I study, as He opened the Word to me and showed me some of Himself and His heart in the Scriptures...I was so awed all I could do was sit and cry in front of my computer..But I want to see the glory of the Lord so fill His temple as I read about in the Scriptures, that no flesh could stand and minister. I have felt His Presence, and been afraid and ashamed, and hungry for more, all at the same time..but mostly at home, or in my car. Rarely at church. And it breaks my heart.

kathleen1 wrote:

I'm so tired of what I've seen and heard. If that's all there is, they can have it, I don't want it. I know there's more...

Wow kathleen. This is almost EXACTLY what I said to the Lord 4 days before I was saved. I was ready to walk away from this whole "christianity" thing because I knew in my heart that "there must be more."

My spirit cried out for the living God, as everything about me cried "fakes" to what I saw around me. I was in a church, doing different bible studies, getting involved in worship, etc... and I was ready to leave it all. I was driving home from one of these events and I called on the Lord and said, "Is this it? Is this all that being a christian is about? If this is it Lord, I don't want to be a part of it. If this is it (being a Christian), I don't want it."

I called on the Lord at that time, and in my heart, I was done. There would be no more. I was sick of the fakeness and wanted no more part of being fake.

4 days later the Lord radically saved me.

Keep seeking sister Him sister. He will reveal Himself in His time. Blessings sister

paulmcg1 wrote:
Heartsong...Do I believe the Lord is present?

Yes but entirely in a different way than people imagine Him to be. God isn't present in a way in which we you all "experience" Him.

I wish I could hear God speak, I'm sure it'd be magnificent! I'm sure I'd hear it! I mean, that is, if God wanted me to hear it.

Pray and ask the Lord to show you if there is anything in your life that is getting in the way of Him making Himself known to you. Then listen and watch for His answer. There is likely something in your life that will have to go - something that He hates - are you willing to part with it? Ask Him to help you with that part also - the "letting go" part. He is a merciful God. If you are willing, He is able.

Sin clogs the receptors.

I was radically born again in 2001, Miccah, I was a drug addict with a 17 year nicotine and drug habit, I was a mess. He cleaned me up, delivered me, took away the desire for drugs and cigarettes, helped me through the withdrawal, and I've been clean since. I fell head over heels in love with God. I got involved in everything in church, cleaning the church, singing in the choir, teaching in the children's Sunday School, and children's church, I was so happy.

Then in 2006 God began to draw me to dig deeper in His Word and the more I did the more He opened my eyes to, and I'm ashamed to say I haven't handled it well. He showed me how He meant things to be and it conflicted with everything I saw going on around me in church. It was basically churchianity, not Christianity.

I'm to the point now where I am exhausted and weary and would rather stay home than go through the motions anymore. I'm so tired. So very tired. When I think about it I just want to cry. I've tried to talk to leadership at church and point out things. Got nowhere. I quit and backed off from everything in church, confused by their attitude of complacency, and contentment with how things are. Though I know there is a handful of others who feel as I do. I got really convicted when I found from studying the Word that those in any kind of ministry involved with the church must be full of the Holy Ghost and faith. Well, I hadn't been baptized in the Spirit, and I was so upset and confused by seeing the reality of what God intended the church to be, and seeing what it had become, I stepped down and quit all my extra curricular involvement with the church. I know the kids miss me, I've had one or two come up and ask me why I am not in there anymore. And I feel like a heel.

I have only seen one lady filled with the Holy Ghost at our church in all the years I've been there. And I was crying out to God to see it when He refilled this lady who prays. She was gripping my hands and praying for me when He did it. I almost got filled one morning a few weeks ago in my kitchen, while watching Duke Downs preach [url=http://www.onlybelievetv.com/view_video.php?viewkey=1d73f4340d570804eacc]Tell Me What Hast Thou In the House? Part 1[/url]
[url=http://www.onlybelievetv.com/view_video.php?viewkey=f8751781d5a895357da6]Tell Me What Hast Thou in the House? Part 2[/url]
[url=http://www.onlybelievetv.com/view_video.php?viewkey=611c8337ee36d178ca12]Tell Me What Hast Thou in the House Part 3[/url]

It's a really good message-one I can't seem to get out of my head. I stood there, with 3 small children running around, playing in the house, as I fixed breakfast for them and my husband, and I felt a heat come over me, like something was coming up from my gut bubbling, and felt a sense I was about to lose absolutely all control of myself and I got scared. I didn't understand at that moment what was happening to me. The more I thought on it, the more disgusted and repentant and sorrowful I have felt. I believe He was going to baptize me and I froze up in fear.

Over the past 3 years, I have encountered a great deal of buffeting from Satan, until I have felt like someone out adrift in the ocean with nothing solid to hold on to as the waves just toss me around, but yet the Word has been my anchor-the only place I feel at home. I have been hurt in the church, and retreated and pretty well withdrawn from them all. I go, I sit quietly, I listen, try to pray, and read my Bible, because I know I have to go and there aren't any other churches around here where I live much better. But I am so tired. So very tired. When I try to pray anymore all that seems to get out is Oh, God, help. Forgive us for we have so greatly misrepresented You. We've traded Your Holy Spirit and Your power for an appearance of godliness. We are stuck in traditions, in our routine, and we've not taken heed to Your Word. We've forsaken you days without number, we've let self rule in Your temple, doing things our own way instead of getting alone and seeking You in Your Word, and look at the mess we've made. How many have fallen, wounded and discouraged, and nobody goes after them to help them. How quietly we sit on our nice padded pews, singing our songs, offering up a few hours a week in this place instead of our lives, while the world around us goes to hell and we sit powerless and unconcerned. God forgive us. God forgive us.

Amen brother. We are indeed reaping the judgments of God which has started at His house. The glory of the Lord's presence has left the Temple as in Ezek. Brother Brian Long preached about it at Wales, I have spoken about it on my own site as the Lord has led but it is the promises of God in Amos 9:11-15 which excite me. This too was preached on in Wales(David Guzik) The promises found there are coming to a hungry and a thirsty people...............Frank

Everything is programmed and planned today in the church. You go to church and it looks more like a social club, than a place where the people of God meet to worship a holy God in wonder and awe.
This sense of wonder and awe has disappeared from our midts. I was 18 years old when i was saved now im 36, and the most humblest experiences that i ever had as a christian was in my personal quite time with God in prayer and worship.

I miss the zeal, fevency of spirit and the pure fire burning in my heart. I remember that as a saved young christian, when i felt that my freindship with God was disconnected because of sin, i would go to a nearby hill of my town and pray and pray till God will relief my heart and i would feel his holy presence and peace inside of me.

Church did not really much help me spiritually, most of the time in the churches that i used to go i did not felt like i was nourished with the word of God. There was times that i would wander like a lost and confused sheep all by myself, in need of help, healing, love and gentle rebuke. People often appoint themselves as shepherds of the flock of God when in reality God's seal is not on them, or the anointing of the Spirit and as a result a lot of sheep wander from place to place for food.

Everyone of us can be guilty of greiving the Holy Spirit, but how sad it is when genuinely born again christians go to church and being for awhile in that cold atmosphere, there fire is quenched, they become cold and later on lukewarm.

Katheleen:

Then in 2006 God began to draw me to dig deeper in His Word and the more I did the more He opened my eyes to, and I'm ashamed to say I haven't handled it well. He showed me how He meant things to be and it conflicted with everything I saw going on around me in church. It was basically churchianity, not Christianity

I have been myself in a similiar situation and its true what you say in general about many churches. But there is another danger i have found of being reclusive and not goin to church because there are so many hypocrites. With time i became cold and lukewarm and backslid in my faith for years. I was dissatisfied with myself and the church but living in a solitary religion was not very helpful to me.

As long as we find few people who fellowship with God in the church and are sensitive not to displease Him, we need to join with them and pray and have fellowship with them.

I have joined a very small home church of C&MA and i suffer from this perfectionist idea of the church. I know there is no perfect church and dont expect to see one here, except in heaven. What i do expect to find is a fellowship of burning hearts and i dont care much if they are baptists, pentocastals, methodists, or non-denomenational ect, as long as they know by expience God.

I guess I'll have to just stick with the Bible. I wish I could hear God speak, I'm sure it'd be magnificent! I'm sure I'd hear it! I mean, that is, if God wanted me to hear it.

Paul: You did not explain what you meant by knowing God in another way than others, so I am guessing by your comments when I reply to them.

The other day I read some of the letters written by George Washington. It allowed me to gain some knowledge about how he thought about things, but I did not "experience" George Washington. The only way I can "know" him is by reading what he wrote, or by reading what others wrote about him. I could never know him personally. He is dead to me since we live in different time periods.

It is an entirely different thing with God. He does not desire you to simply know about Him and make a decision that Christianity is for you based on a more convincing knowledge base than another man has for his religious choice. You can know all about God through His word and still He is dead to you and you are dead to Him. Carnival performers have been known to memorize the entirety of the Bible and still not know God at all.

The whole purpose of Christ bearing our sin on the cross was so that we might be able to come into the very presence of a Holy God, into the Holy of Holies, through Jesus Christ. The whole point of salvation is that we might know God and be known of Him. He is a real person, and He is alive. He wants us to know Him and experience Him. That is the whole point, relationship. Salvation is not academic.

Have you ever come to the place in your life where you became aware that you were a sinner and in need of salvation? Have you ever felt the Holy Spirit tugging at your heart? That is God speaking to you. Did you repent of your sin, and surrender yourself to God, making Him the Lord of your life. Did you believe on Him and what Jesus did to purchase your salvation and receive it by faith? Did you then have an assurance in your heart that, "I am clean. Wow! I am a child of God." That assurance is God speaking to you.

Paul, I am not sure where you are at given the limited information you have given, but I want to assure you that God desires to make Himself known to you more than you desire it. I can guarantee that. Begin to seek Him in prayer and ask Him to reveal to you what is going on in your life.

Travis.

Everyone of us can be guilty of greiving the Holy Spirit, but how sad it is when genuinely born again christians go to church and being for awhile in that cold atmosphere, there fire is quenched, they become cold and later on lukewarm.

this is what I'm struggling with...I understand that if I try to withdraw and just stay home the danger of backsliding increases. But so many times I have went to church with the fire of God burning in my soul, wanting to share only to be shot down when I did, and it was like somebody throwing cold water on the fire.

Frank, Deepthinker: Brothers, isn't the inspiration of the Holy Spirit sweet?

Travis

hi, my sheep know and hear My voice and follow Me... i have followed this voice for 45 years... to the mission fields...starting churches...making many mistakes... seeing thousands saved...many many miracles...seeing the Holy Spirit move in my life has made it a joy that i cannot understand and He is still moving in a mighty way.if you do not have a sweet loving personal relationship that is also intimate please go to Him and stay before Him until you do.jimp

There are countless Christians all over the world experiencing what you are right now and are totaly perplexed. I will send you a link in a PM to an article that will explain some of what is going on. There is a new move coming, God has not forgotton His remnant people

Im one of those "countless christians" and "perplexed" describes me well at the moment. Frank would you be able to also forward me the link?

What is the glory of God?

When Moses saw the glory of God, he was forever changed.

Some of you that are grieving because you haven't seen the glory of God; I ask you, "Have you been forever changed?" Then I must contend with you that you have seen the glory of God.

Now, was it was you thought is was? Perhaps not but don't let the enemy through grief take your eyes off the Prize!

If you desire a greater proportion of His glory, then.......

[i]Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? [/i]
Matthew 7:7-11

Just know and be prepared that when you ask for [b]more[/b], "God withholds no good thing from them that love Him" and He will have to prepare you and I.... and you and I may not like it!! (huge grin)

Eveything with God is NOT peaches and cream. We will have to be prepared to change and let some of the things we thought were truth (or our perspective of truth) go by the wayside to see His truth.

Depending on how quickly we "take" to what God wants to do in us, is how quickly we will see and experience His glory. Is seeing and experiencing His glory all for us? Really? No, it's so we can take it to those who are without.

If you truly think that you're "all that" in God, think again!! Some things that you and i do and say are not at all Godly or what He is happy with; are you and I willing to let them go so we can be more than a pew sitter or couch sitter so that we can experience more of Him?

appolus wrote:

God is going to do a new thing, He has spoken to so many brothers and sisters around the world on this very subject. There seems to be a gathering of momentum towards this new move of God.

What is this new thing, this new move of God?

What has God spoken about?

Frank et. al.: Just catching up on what has been going on with this thread.

I am not sure I can say I believe that God has withdrawn anything. When Christ ascended, he promised to send the Holy Spirit to fill the body of Christ with power. The body of Christ is not an institution, but a living organism composed of individual members. The church is not the temple. The individual members are the temple of God. I am the temple of God. His Holy Spirit dwells in me. God has not withdrawn His Holy Spirit, His presence, His anointing from me, nor has He withdrawn it from the other members of His body. To do so would be to remove the presence of the Holy Spirit. Scripture says, "Now to Him who is able to do abundantly above and beyond all that I can ask or think, according to the power that words in us." The power of the Holy Spirit works in me, so His presence is still being manifested to the world through His power working in me. The problem is that, to a large degree, there is a religious structure called the church that is made up of members who have no power working in them. Many deny the Holy Spirit and many are not even born again.

What I would wholeheartedly agree with is the departure that what I would call "institutionalized Christianity" has made from the head of the church, Jesus Christ. There is a very visible institution in the world that calls itself the church but has come to the place where ichabod needs to be written above the door. You are right brother. God is drawing hungry people out of that institutional system that is, in reality, just man's system superimposed with God's name.

There is a restoration of many things that I believe is coming. Among those things is Biblical structure for apostolic and prophetic foundations of the church, restoration of active five-fold equipping ministry in the body. The man made institutional structures that have for so long hindered the movings of the Holy Spirit among local bodies of believers are being exposed to the hearts of hungry people, and they are making an exodus.

God has always had a remnant, but I am not convinced that this remnant has ever seen itself as such. These people were just men and women, full of the Holy Ghost, seeking God, and walking in His power. The remnant was operating in what to them was the normal Christian life.

Just some thoughts. God Bless.

Travis.

DeepThinker wrote:

Do you mean that there is a "sense" of God's withdraw? or do you mean that God has withdrawn Himself from us for a period?

"Then she named the child Ichabod, saying, 'The glory has departed from Israel!' because the ark of God had been captured and because of her father-in-law and her husband." (1 Samuel 4:21)

The church is carnal and the carnal naturally support doctrines and practices which vindicate and feed their existing carnality. The church is in the fleshly ditch.

How did we get here??

Well, if you examine how life works, you will notice that quality often become the first victim of popularity or rapid growth.

Ministers who faithfully thunder the whole truth are exceedingly rare, and without their aggressive Scriptural goading the great majority of the redeemed will remain stuck in the familiar carnal mud they were born into.......

HI Travis, I appreciate your thoughts and most I could say amen to, probalbly all :) The Withdrawing of the presence of God is an imporatnt part of what is going on I believe. As has already been well explained in a previous post(I will have to look back and see who did it) there is a difference between the presence of God which is obviously everywhere and His manifest presence, His "felt," presence. Brian Long does a good job in the word he deliverd in Wales, you can see his word on SI. There is a difference between the Ichabod departure and the departure of God's presence in Ezek 9&10. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on that. God bless you brother........Frank

Hey Frank:

Brother, I am still myself having a little bit of trouble figuring out exactly what you are saying. Maybe you can give some clarification?

Ezek. 9 and 10 is prophetically dealing with a specific period in the history of the nation of Israel.

The presence of God abides in me. God is not withdrawing his "felt" presence from my life. In fact, I have experienced a stronger "felt" presence of the Lord in the last few years than I ever have. The manifest presence of God, to me, is that presence that becomes physically obvious, manifest in the physical realm, including the nine gifts of the spirit, signs, wonders, etc. I am still seeing these on a relatively frequent basis. There is a sort of "Hide and Seek" teaching that I have seen from time to time in the body of Christ. It says that God sometimes "hides" himself to induce hunger in His people to seek Him. I cannot see it scripturally. God who offered His only begotten son so that relationship with me could be restored would hide Himself or His presence from me? I have been invited through the veil, that is Christ, into the very holy of holies and can do so boldly. That was the whole point in what Christ did. I have an unction from the Holy One, an ever abiding anointing through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. God would have to violate His own word to remove that presence from me.

I can see where the nominal church is not experiencing the presence of God. They have withdrawn from God, not the other way around. I can see where people who are part of that system are getting into the word and saying, "Hey, wait a minute here. I am reading the fine print. Isn't there supposed to be a manifest presence of God included in this thing. I think I am being cheated." I can see then a hunger arising in them for something more and an exodus from the old system in search of the truth. But I don't see this as a general design of God to withdraw His presence.

Not sure if those comments had anything to do with what you were talking about. Maybe we are doing a high five and missing each other's hands. :-?

I guess I am saying that I think the whole design of the new covenant precludes any kind of withdrawal on the part of God of His presence until the point at the end of time when the Holy Spirit is removed entirely.

Bless you brother

Travis

Frank: Thanks for the clarification brother. That helps me see what you are talking about a little bit better.

In the Azusa St. revival, many people reported the glory of God manifested in a tangible cloud that filled the room much like smoke. If that, or similar, is what you mean by the manifested presence of God then I would agree that I have never seen that or any similar "manifestations" in my lifetime.

I admit, I have not yet listened to Bro. Long's message. But from the essence of it that you have given, I am still not sure I agree that God has, for some reason, chosen to withhold these things. I guess I am pretty literal when it comes to Bible interpretation. There are times when in a given prophecy God reveals something that at one time touches different ages. An example being the prophecy given in Joel 2:28-32. Part of that prophecy has come to pass, part is yet to come. However Ezek. 9-10 has come to pass. I don't see any room to transfer this prophecy to the church and look for a second fulfillment. If you want to look for a principle, that is God dealing in similar ways with the church, I guess I could agree with that as long as it is supported by other instances of this Biblical principle.

I guess what you are talking about, to me, depends on what one calls the manifest presence of God. If indeed it is limited to physical phenomena witnessed corporately in individual bodies of believers and simultaneously worldwide, then we may not be seeing this. But I am not convinced that this is how one should define the manifest presence of God. If God were to pull back His manifest presence, I would say that we should necessarily see cessation of miracles, manifestations of the gifts of the spirit, prophecy, etc. I see these things manifested corporately in the body I fellowship with on a regular basis in our meetings, and in the marketplace as we are out and about and find opportunity to minister to people.

I will try to find time to listen to the teachings though, and see if I don't come to a different conclusion.

Dark night of the soul, desert experience, broken by God, had God withhold His voice, "scourged". Never had it happen in the sense that many teach it. It is God's full intention that I live in the joy of the Lord. In the world, when a parent decides to withdraw his or her presence from a child as a form of punishment, we call it child abuse. I have been disciplined by God often. But, it has always come in the form of conviction of the Holy Spirit (the voice of the Lord speaking to me to correct me, not lack thereof), and by the other Biblical way, His word. John chapter 15.

True, judgment does begin with the house of the Lord, and I think we are seeing that even now. There is a great falling away happening as the true church of the living God comes out of the thing that many call the church. I am not convinced that we need the desert to teach us to walk by faith. I cannot find that principle anywhere in the new testament. I find only men and women filled with the power of God through the Holy Spirit. I cannot recall reading of any of them portrayed as ever having something called a "desert" experience to teach them to walk by faith.

Maybe we are not so much on the same side of this as I thought. Doesn't change the respect I have for you. I appreciate your posts and find them very edifying. Again, I will try to find time to listen to Bro. Long.

Blessings Brother.

Travis

twayneb wrote:
I am not convinced that we need the desert to teach us to walk by faith. I cannot find that principle anywhere in the new testament.

I guess I am saying that I think the whole design of the new covenant precludes any kind of withdrawal on the part of God of His presence until the point at the end of time when the Holy Spirit is removed entirely.

Didn't the Lord's words to the seven churches point to a withdrawal of His presence?

[i]Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, [b]and will remove thy candlestick out of his place[/b], except thou repent.[/i] (Rev 2:1-5)

In Christ,

Ron

Paul,
Do you have unconfessed, unrepented sin your life that is blocking your communication with God and his with you?

ginnyrose

IntheLight wrote:

Didn't the Lord's words to the seven churches point to a withdrawal of His presence?

I don't think so. Notice that the determining factor is not God deciding to remove His presence, but the failure of the churches to repent. They were the deciding factor, not God.

Frank: Thanks brother for the understanding reply. My guess is that in most things we agree much more than otherwise.

Ezek. 9 and 10 is prophetically dealing with a specific period in the history of the nation of Israel.

Yes, but Ezekiel's prophetic ministry spoke of "these days." Otherwise, why would God cumber the Bible with something irrelevant?

"Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days" (Acts 3.24.

"These days," speaking of the days following the sufferings and glorification of Christ... and the formation of the church.

Ezekiel's prophecy-- and you have to take the book of Ezekiel as one whole prophecy; it is all of one piece in my estimation-- it has much to say to us. I mean, to US.

I listened to Brian Long's message and found it good.

Perhaps it's not all that easy to make a sweeping generalization that applies to all Christendom; I'll just add my own testimony to that of others who feel the Presence of God isn't with us as it once had been.

For the past few years I've been finding things increasingly difficult. Harder to enter that beautiful fellowship and communion of the Spirit that's been so precious over the years, the one thing my heart beats for. A sense of barrenness. An inner sense of hardness, dryness. Hard to read; the word seems dry. Even harder to enter into prayer. God seeming to have hidden His face from me. It's very difficult. Very painful. You get questioning... is there something wrong with me? Have I offended You, Lord? And the Enemy is there to nod His head knowingly. It's a battle to keep from going under at times. You have to very steadfastly maintain your foundation of being "accepted in the beloved." And He does draw close at times, giving reassurance.

And this is the testimony of others I know as well.

So I think what this young man ministered from on Ezekiel-- about the Presence withdrawing-- at least for myself and also among some I know, this is our experience also.

I know it's an old testament prophecy, but it speaks loudly of New Covenant days. And Paul the apostle, as well as Peter, and Jude, all spoke of a time of great apostasy to come. As did our Lord Himself. Surely the implication is that even those who love the Lord and seek to hold close to Him would also be affected. (Those with a priestly calling are always called to go through the same things others, the people among whom they dwell, have to go through. Just one example: when God called for a drought and famine by the mouth of Elijah, the prophet himself had to go through it. It wasn't easy sailing; it was very difficult... but God was faithful to his servant to "keep him alive in famine.")

The encouraging thing, the beautiful thing, is that when we continue reading in Ezekiel-- and as I said, his book must be taken as a whole-- but as we continue reading, we discover that when the old "city" is destroyed and a New City and Temple comes forth, the glory of God returns-- and by the east gate-- the same gate by which He left. (Ezek. 43.2).

And when you read what unfolds as a result of this, with a River of Water being released from this New Temple, and growing, growing, growing, growing (four times) and fruit trees springing up along its banks (Ezek. 47.12) ...suddenly we are right there in the last book of the Bible! (Rev. 22.1,2).

Awesome things are before us!

(Edit: Travis, when I capitalized the word US above, please don't think I was speaking with an argumentative tone of voice. :-))

I am not convinced that we need the desert to teach us to walk by faith. I cannot find that principle anywhere in the new testament

Gal 1:15-18 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

In the above scriptures you can see a desert experience of Paul.

Here I will list some on the things I see in these 3 verses.

1. Calling of God
As you get closer to the calling God has for you he the Holy Spirit will lead into the Desert.

2. Revealing of the Son
A deeper work of the spirit in your life will take place in the desert. In the desert you will find out who the real you is but God in his goodness will then reveal his son in you in a greater measure.

Think on it this way on the way to Damascus Paul sees Jesus and is blinded he goes to into the city as instructed to where he is baptized. This is a brief description of Pauls conversion.

But yet there was a deeper work to be done in his life and that was that the Son of God revealed in him.

3. Taught by the Holy Spirit

Paul states that he not consult with flesh and blood but went into Arabia a literal desert experience and was taught by God the Gospel he was to preach.

Another example of a desert experince is the new testamnet would be the saviour when he is led into the wilderness just before his ministry on earth started.

This thought has been in my head for the past couple of weeks.

[b]You must come out, so you can go in[/b]

Israel had to come out of Eygpt before they could go into the promised land. They had to go through the desert/wilderness to get there.

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Like wise the church today many are coming out of the worldly carnal church which is represented by Eygpt, God has moved on from there and to find him many are being led into the wildereness. In the wilderenss they will find God in a deeper and more fuller way than they had ever known before as God leads them to promised land, where we the church come in to the fullness of God in a way that has never happened before on this earth.

[b]You must come out, so you can go in[/b]

very well said..

hi,after reading all the posts i wish to repent of mine... i am much older than any of you and most of the thrilling,exciting spiritual experiences are rather old...in saying that i also would tell you that they keep you for decades.. it is better to be felt than telt... as great as the church is that i am associated with ... for 45 years... seeing many saved even now i told the pastor that the only thing missing now that he has taken over for his dad 25 years ago was the Holy Spirits mighty pressence... sorry for my prideful post... jimp

Very good word, Murrcolr, about God's purposes in leading His people into-- and through-- wildernesses and deserts.

We all know the question, "Have you been filled with the Holy Spirit?"

But I don't think I've ever heard anyone ask, "Have you been emptied by the Holy Spirit?"

Wildernesses are great emptying places.

...Also, thanks, Frank, for bearing witness with what I shared. That was encouraging.

murrcolr wrote:

(Edit: Travis, when I capitalized the word US above, please don't think I was speaking with an argumentative tone of voice. )

Nothing of the sort brother. :-)

Colin Wrote:

Gal 1:15-18 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. In the above scriptures you can see a desert experience of Paul. Here I will list some on the things I see in these 3 verses. 1. Calling of God As you get closer to the calling God has for you he the Holy Spirit will lead into the Desert. 2. Revealing of the Son A deeper work of the spirit in your life will take place in the desert. In the desert you will find out who the real you is but God in his goodness will then reveal his son in you in a greater measure. Think on it this way on the way to Damascus Paul sees Jesus and is blinded he goes to into the city as instructed to where he is baptized. This is a brief description of Pauls conversion. But yet there was a deeper work to be done in his life and that was that the Son of God revealed in him. 3. Taught by the Holy Spirit Paul states that he not consult with flesh and blood but went into Arabia a literal desert experience and was taught by God the Gospel he was to preach. Another example of a desert experince is the new testamnet would be the saviour when he is led into the wilderness just before his ministry on earth started. This thought has been in my head for the past couple of weeks. You must come out, so you can go in Israel had to come out of Eygpt before they could go into the promised land. They had to go through the desert/wilderness to get there. 1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Like wise the church today many are coming out of the worldly carnal church which is represented by Eygpt, God has moved on from there and to find him many are being led into the wildereness. In the wilderenss they will find God in a deeper and more fuller way than they had ever known before as God leads them to promised land, where we the church come in to the fullness of God in a way that has never happened before on this earth. You must come out, so you can go in _________________ Colin Robert Murray

Brother, I agree with what you just said, but I think it a different definition of "desert" experience than what was described before. Hmmm! Its is a lot like the term sanctification. It has come to mean something different to every person who uses the term.

I agree that God pulls us aside and teaches us, trains us, matures us. This experience is not always pleasant, because it usually means that a part of us has to die so His life can be created in us. I don't call that a desert experience. I call that being changed from glory to glory.

What I don't identify with is the "desert" experience where, it is often taught, God pulls His presence from us to cause us to grow. I meant I cannot find that anywhere in the New Testament.

Good post brother.

Travis

twayneb wrote:

What I don't identify with is the "desert" experience where, it is often taught, God pulls His presence from us to cause us to grow. I meant I cannot find that anywhere in the New Testament.

In the testing(desert)it can feel like God is a million miles away and fallen of the throne. Consider Peter's trial not. Peter was the one who had the revelation of who Jesus was "the Son of God"

Luke 22:31-32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Jesus did not pray for the testing to be stopped he prayed that in the testing that his faith fail not.

Can you imagine the thoughts that assailed Peter at this time, when he saw that the Son of God was taken prisoner and nailed to the cross and he died.

Where did Peter think God was at while this was going on, did Peter feel alone, scared and confused. Peter got so afraid he even denied that he even knew Jesus. Can you imagine the feeling of guilt and condemnation the Devil attack Peter with after that happened.

Where was God then in Peters life he was a million miles away fallen of the throne.

Of course God wasn't a million miles away his plans was right on course, God was with Peter but it just didn't appear to be that way at the time.

It's the same just know God is with us, it's just appears to be that God has departed and is million miles away but his plans are on course, In this hour on temptation, in the hour of trial, hear the words from the Son [b]But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not[/b]

Shout it out loud "Remember what God said he is with us"

hi,i would like to tell you of a minisrty i was with in mexico to encourage some who need to be... faith hope and love min. danny ost and roger west... they were well established in mex.in monterey with a large self supported church a school and a bible col. God told danny to move to puebla and start new works and he told God that he would at the end of the school semester... two days later he was flying his small plane dumping tracks in the mountain vil. and when he flew over puebla his engine cut off in his plane... he told God he would go tomorrow and the engine came back on ...12 large churches later in that region he died...i ministered with him in leon and a man came forward with sores all over his legs and i prayed the 30 second american healing line prayer...but danny said we are going to pray until this man is healed even though we had a long line for this man walked for 2 days to be there...he was healed ... roger was the interceder and a man shot at him one day and the bullet stopped and fell at rogers feet..enough for now...jimp

hi, one more quick one... i was working retail with a self imposed rule of not witnessing on the clock...stealing. God told me in my knower to go witness to an old man in my department...after wrestling with this for a while God insisted and i obeyed... thats how i met len ravenhill and became his friend.jimp

What I don't identify with is the "desert" experience where, it is often taught, God pulls His presence from us to cause us to grow. I meant I cannot find that anywhere in the New Testament.

Jesus was led into the Wilderness, by the Holy Spirit, to be tested and tried for 40 days. First example. He is our Pattern-in whose steps we follow. The wilderness is God's way of stripping us of all confidence in self, but in the case of Jesus Christ, I believe it was because He knew we would have to go into the wilderness, and He was tempted in all points as we would be. At His weakest, the devil came at Him with great temptations. Temptations to act in order to preserve Himself, rather than depend on God to provide-which God did.

I won't mention Paul and the hard, lonely places he went through because it has been previously discussed.

I would bring to mind the Scriptures in John where Jesus mentions the fact He is the vine, and God is the husbandman of the vineyard. I did some studying on vineyards, wondering at this illustration. I found some very interesting things, which point to the topic being discussed here. There is one point that struck home with me, when I was going through a dry spell-which I was at the time I studied these Scriptures on the vine. Grape growers tend to water the vine infrequently, to let it get thirsty and dry, in order that its roots will dig deeper into the soil looking for moisture. We can go through dry spells and I know in my case it causes me to go to the Word, to dig and pray, and seek God. I listed a few things I learned as I studied this, and I saw some spiritual application in these natural things. Keep in mind that Jesus already knew all these things when He used the illustration of the vineyard and the vine.

1. The first year of vine growth is meant to establish a strong and vigorous root system and build stores of nutrients to hasten growth in subsequent years. The first year of vine growth is not meant to produce fruit for winemaking. During the first year, all clusters should be removed immediately from the vine to keep the vine from using nutrients to ripen grapes. Also, the first year is not meant to push the vine into making fruit or fruiting wood in the second year, when it might not yet be ready to produce clusters. Some vines may be ready to produce fruit in the second year; others may not. The key here is patience and knowing when a vine has established itself to the point at which it is ready to make fruit for wine. In general, a vine is allowed to establish itself and grow vegetatively — producing no fruit — for the first two years in the ground. After the second full year of growth, the vine is commonly pruned by leaving a few canes on the trellis wires. These canes grow fruit in the third year.

2. One of the first goals is to establish a strong, vigorous root system. In order to do that, the grape grower needs to water the vines, control weeds and control pests. As soil types and weather are different from location to location, prescribing a watering plan for all growers is difficult. The key here is providing moisture to the vines’ root system without making the soil overly muddy. Allow the roots to dry out between water applications. This will promote root growth as the vines sink their root systems deeper into the soil layers in an attempt to find water. Vines that are “trained” to learn that their water only comes from one place (a drip emitter or a hose) will develop a root ball near the surface of the soil and will not develop a deep and wide root system. Deep, infrequent applications of water are, in my estimation, best for the vine. The vines “learn” that growing deeper in the soil profile helps them find water when the top of the soil is drying out. Here’s a pro tip for assessing a vine’s water status: If the tendril of a vine shoot (there are usually two growing out from near the tip of the shoot) extends further than the shoot’s growing tip, the vine has all the water it needs. When the tendrils shrink back behind the growing tip, the vine is experiencing some form of water-deficit stress. Cut back the water in August or early September to help the vine go dormant (and help the shoot become a mature, wooden “cane”) before the first fall frost.

3. Weed Control: Weed control is absolutely vital in the vines’ early years. Once the vineyard is well established, and the vines have deep root systems, weed control will not be as critical. But, while the vines are young and their root systems shallow, they will be in direct competition with weeds for sunlight, water and nutrients.Also learn that planting a cover crop rich in vetches, clover, legumes or other nitrogen-fixing plants can choke out competing weeds and add vital nutrients to your soil. Learn which plants in your area are beneficial and which are noxious. Hoe the bad and leave the good, but make sure to clean out a strip of soil around and under the vine so it doesn’t have to compete for sunlight, water, or nutrients where it is planted and establishing itself. Giving the vine freedom from weeds will help the roots grow faster, which in turn will give the root hairs more contact with the soil and the nutrients it contains.

4. Controlling pests, especially ones that snack on roots, is vital for the health of young vines. Fighting gophers is an ongoing battle in many viticultural regions, and — like Bill Murray in the movie “Caddyshack’” — you may well have to join the fight to assure your vineyard survives. A vineyard is like a neatly ordered smorgasbord for a gopher. They can follow the vine row over a few weeks or months and snack on each vine in turn. All they need to do is chew around the root collar and it’s “game over” for that vine. If you see a dead vine in your vineyard, tug on it a bit. If it comes up easily with a diagonal, slightly-chewed end with no roots on it, you’ve been hit by gophers.
Gophers can be trapped quite easily. Or you can build a few owl-boxes in trees around your property. You will be amazed how many rodents these birds take per night. Poisoning is another option, but you need to be careful of secondary kill of household pets or other beneficial animals.

Deer, rabbits and ground squirrels can also nibble young growth in a vineyard. Fences, bait traps, dogs or a hunting permit may help with these problems. It is common to use a cut-off half-gallon paper milk carton around each young vine to keep rabbits and squirrels from nibbling young shoots.

5. The application of fertilizers is usually necessary in a vine’s first year to help build stores of nutrients, especially nitrogen, in the developing trunk and root system. Sorry to get off topic a little because I know the main point of this thread is the glory of God returning to the church...which I long for...

Source: Wes Hagen is the Vineyard Manager at Clos Pepe Vineyards in California.  

Hi bro & sis. I read some of the threads here and they are deep and insightful, thanks for sharing. I know that im not where i need to be and God is working with me and in me. I believe His word that says, "that a parched ground shall become a pool, and a thirsty land springs of water."

Well said Frank i too share a similar experience:

Through the window of my soul
I see that the drought continues
I am walking through a dry and dusty land
And my bones are indeed growing old

There is a spiritual application for us i believe with what happend to God's people at Egypt, at wilderness and promised land Canaan.

There were 3 stages that Israel had to go thru.

1. They were set free from the slavery at Egypt and from the tyrany of Pharaoh.

2. They wondered at wilderness for 42 years and prolongued their stay in the desert because of their disobedience against God.

3. They conquered the promised land.

Sometimes we can speak of christian walk as progressive stages but this is not a fixed pattern as God works in a different way with different people. The danger is when we try to put God in a "box" and explain his workings in our soul according to our personal experiences or revelations.

Before we believed Jesus we were slaves of sin and the devil, then Christ came to set the captives free and we saw the light.

Many of us go thru a spiritual wilderness experience, we lose the joy of our salvation and prolongue our journey thru wilderness because of disobidience.

Many christians think that the promise land is in heaven, even though this can be true in one sense, there is a true promise land for us in this world. Note that the israelites had to fight to conquer the land and even after they possessed Canaan, they had enemies around their borders.

Those christians who are baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit have entered the promise land. They receive by faith the promises of God and experience victory over the giants of sin, self, the world, the devil thru the cross and Jesus Christ.

Christians who possess the spiritual promise land know the power of the cross, the blood and the Holy Ghost. They are a threat to the kindgom of darkness and the devil's headache. They have authority over demons and over principalities. They may lose battles but they know they will win the war for God is on their side fighting for them.

Our body, soul and spirit can be compared with egypt, wilderness and canaan too. We were once living in the flesh and for the flesh and its corrupt desires. Then we passed from death to life and our spirit was made alive in Jesus Christ.

If we live in the Spirit and walk in the Spirit, God demands the submission of our soul to sanctify its faculties (will, emotions and intellect) by the Spirit and take hold of it. The work of sanctification doesn't stop with the spirit and soul but it goes on with our body. For the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. When we have yielded, consencrated and abandoned our all spirit, soul and body to God and are sanctified wholly and are ready to obey God in everything. Then can we say that he has all of us, and has his free way to work in us and thru us and make us a useful instrument,a broken bread and poured out wine for others.
Then we can say with confidence that we are the light and the salt of the world and the image of the Son of God. Then can we truly radiate with the life of our Lord and people will recognize us as followers of Jesus Christ by the likeness of character we have with Him.

Many christians backslide and go back to Egypt(the world) and walk in the flesh and are carnal, many are soulish and prolongue their journey in the wildernerss. Few are overcommers and spiritual and have the moral courage and bold faith to possess their promised land and walk in the power of the Spirit and see the advance of the kindgom of God.
Promissed land is life in the Spirit
The land of Egypt is life in the Flesh
The wilderness is where our faith is tested as by fire and our soul refined and purified. Its wildeness and its temptations that reveal our true character and faith in God.

Blessings,
Redi

Edited

Dear Redi,
Thank you for the words of encouragement. They were sorely needed right at this moment.

Then turn to Him and repent, right now, this minute - lay it all out before Him - for each minute you wait, adds greater weight and soon it may be too late.

hi, the life of one who follows the bible only is a dry and fruitless life of failure ending in disaster... if you are not born of the Spirit into Jesus this is where you are. for God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son that whosoever believe into[eos]Him should not perish. the little word eos in greek means into not in or on{en}if you are IN Christ you are a new creature(intimately in Him)... you hear His voice in stead of void.this is the most serious problem in the earth today...do you intimately Know Him and does he know you... adam knew eve and bore a son... that is intimate ... are you bearing any fruit at all in your walk with Him???

Brother, if I had one Christian to fellowship over this in my life I would ask nothing else!

i need the glory of God in my life, i just feel dead and emotionless throughout the day

bible4life I feel the same way... I need reality!!

hi, while working locally for a world wide ministry as a phone counselor i got a call from a cree indian from north of the artic circle who lived on an island with no other christians... what a great time we had together... your posts reminded me of that wonderful night..ty jimp

What "proofs" do you need of God and is presence?

Why other christians experience it and not you?

What you think is the problem?

What is "presence" in definition?

Can you see a great miracle and not believe in the presence of God ( you can see a miracle and still not believe in the presence of God)

You think the problem is external o internal?

May the Holy Spirit Reveals to you THE GREAT MIGHTY GOD.

great article..