I was reading Oswald Chambers this morning and was wondering what you thought about this statement.
"God’s perfect will is unchangeable...God’s permissive will is the testing He uses to reveal His true sons and daughters."
What happens if I chose his permissive will on purpose...what exactly does that mean for me? Is this a salvation issue?
Can you post the quote's larger context? Maybe the whole section?
With care in Christ...
The way I've heard it described (John Piper's sermon 'The 2 Wills of God' (?) is excellent) is that God's perfect will is the same as his 'decrees' in that they will come to pass. No one's 'will' will get in the way, nothing on earth will stop God's decrees from coming to pass (Is 46:10; Dan 4:35 etc). His passive will refers to his commandments that he puts forward that includes the law, but that he knows will be disobeyed or obeyed by man.
It is similar to a Father in his household who passively wills for his children to be obedient and on occasion decrees that they will do so, or decrees a scenario that he decides will happen, according to his ability and will to make it happen.
Piper's message explains this seeming dichotomy far better than I can here.
It is similar to a Father in his household who passively wills for his children to be obedient and on occasion decrees that they will do so, or decrees a scenario that he decides will happen, according to his ability and will to make it happen.
Always make a distinction between God’s perfect will and His permissive will, which He uses to accomplish His divine purpose for our lives. God’s perfect will is unchangeable. It is with His permissive will, or the various things that He allows into our lives, that we must wrestle before Him. It is our reaction to these things allowed by His permissive will that enables us to come to the point of seeing His perfect will for us. "We know that all things work together for good to those who love God . . ." ( Romans 8:28 )— to those who remain true to God’s perfect will— His calling in Christ Jesus. God’s permissive will is the testing He uses to reveal His true sons and daughters. We should not be spineless and automatically say, "Yes, it is the Lord’s will."
-Oswald Chambers
Gotcha. I guess I'm used to hearing the words "decreetive" and "revealed" will of God. The decreetive will being what God has determined to happen throughout history, and the "revealed" will being his commandments, similar to the John Piper explanation.
This is actually an important distinction to make. The Scripture tells us to search out and obey the revealed will of God, but actually commands us to leave the decreetive will up to Him (Deut 29:29). This is important when determining "God's will for my life."
There is a extensive book on this topic titled "Decision Making and the Will of God".
With care in Christ...
The "Permissive Will" comes from this verse.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and [b]acceptable
I heard this teaching from the false prophet Kenneth E. Hagin some years ago.
He was successful in changing the word "Acceptable" to mean "Permissible" in that many have accepted what he said including me.
I don't subscribe to that way of thinking anymore.
I don't believe there is such a thing as a "Permissive Will". If anything, the closest would be to say that "My grace is sufficient for thee".
I don't believe there is such a thing as a "Permissive Will". If anything, the closest would be to say that "My grace is sufficient for thee".
I agree.
Seems to me that when we look at the WORD and work to categorize what would fall under God's permissive will, and what is his perfect/absolute will one will be be working to justify some disobedient act. Sounds to me like a dangerous mindset.
My thoughts..
ginnyrose
I posted this on another thread a while back, but I'll post it again. A very interesting article on the subject can be found here: http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/are-there-two-wills-in-god/
He gives numerous Scriptural examples to support his claims.
After reading this question and pondering it a bit more I thought that perhaps I should come back and share more..
One can really get all tangled up when one works to discern whether this or that act is God's will or his permissive will.
Sin is sin. God allows it and its consequences to occur. This is a no-brainer to those of us who study the Scriptures. But was this act God's will? Is sin God's will? No. It must always be repented of.
However, suppose you get pregnant and are single, is this child's existence God's will? To determine this will lead you into a mine field fraught with danger and its consequence of extreme anger - by someone. I have had single, pregnant clients justify their sin because they got pregnant: this pregnancy is God's will! if it would not be they would not be pregnant!
How do you handle this?
What if you are the illegitimate child? what would you think? are you any less important to God?
Seems to me it is in our best interests - and others' - to simply leave some things be. We can't change it, we cannot change history. We are here and it is up to us to repent of [i]our
Blessings,
ginnyrose
My Mother wasn't legally married by the state. Her Sister and my Mother had the same man, living under one roof. What Dad did was certainly a sin. But he was of that mindset that he couldn't just leave my Mother in the hands of another man or to leave her to be alone to raise her children, he was too possessive. It's really hard to explain, but in order for me to be in existence, this sin had to take place. I know that sounds awful, but I don't know how to explain it. There is no justification for his actions, only mercy. It's like in order for Solomon to be king he had to come through David and Bathsheba. It was a sin yes, but God took that mess and made something good come out of it.
Ginny, I have to completely agree with you, there are just somethings that we simply don't have an answer for. However if it's sin, we must repent of it and see what God will do with that situation.Seems to me it is in our best interests - and others' - to simply leave some things be. We can't change it, we cannot change history. We are here and it is up to us to repent of our sin and let God take care of other peoples'.
P.S. My Mother was forced.
So what if your a Christian and God tells you to marry GIRL A but you disobey and marry GIRL B. Then the man intentionally marries the wrong woman and disobeyed GOD...on purpose. Let's say 6 months of God telling him No and he still does what He wants.
The man heard God's voice...and Jesus says that His sheep hear his voice. So the man chose to excercise his free will and marry who he wanted. I'm sure there's consequences but is this a salvation issue?
Please don't get me wrong...I'm not trying to come against the Lord... I really want his will for my life but when it involves the heart.man oh man it's hard. Read the last verse in this proverb.
Proverbs 30:21
18 "There are three things that are too amazing for me,
four that I do not understand:
19 the way of an eagle in the sky,
the way of a snake on a rock,
the way of a ship on the high seas,
and the way of a man with a maiden.
Welcome to Hell! :-PSo what if your a Christian and God tells you to marry GIRL A but you disobey and marry GIRL B.
Greetings Silo
You wrote:So what if your a Christian and God tells you to marry GIRL A but you disobey and marry GIRL B. Then the man intentionally marries the wrong woman and disobeyed GOD...on purpose. Let's say 6 months of God telling him No and he still does what He wants.
____
I believe the Christian would be in rebellion to the Lord and I would ask if they are walking in willful disobedience do they really love the Lord. Its tells us in the Bible that "if you love me you will obey me" I think if the Christian married girl A instead of the one the Lord was clearly telling him to marry then he is in willful disobedience and shows that he does not love the Lord. Of course there still is forgiveness for sin if it is truely repented of but there will be consequence for the action still.
You asked if it is a salvation issue? I would say that if this Christian is willfully in rebellion to God then there is the real possibility that they are not truly saved. One who is truly living for Jesus will bare fruit to such, they will still struggle with sin, but when convicted of the sin, they are broken and repent before God. At least this has been my understanding of this kind of thing.
God Bless
mj
A quick story...
A number of years ago, my best friend passed away at the age of 30. He had many friends as he was probably the most well liked christian man I've ever met.
A couple days before his funeral, I was working in my paint booth when God's voice came to me and said, 'Call Lloyd'. The only Lloyd I knew I had met about 7 years prior when my friend had introduced me to him, and I didn't know where he worked or what his last name was.
I walked out of the booth up to my desk and asked God where he worked. God gave me the name of a heavy equipment dealer in town so I called and asked if there was a 'Lloyd' that worked there. She said 'hold please'.
Lloyd answered and I asked if he knew a man named, ______? He said 'Yes I do'.
I told him about the accident and when the funeral was. He shared that he and my friend had been planning on starting a business together and he couldn't understand why my friend wasn't getting back to him.
Lloyd was able to attend the funeral that he otherwise would've missed.
God showed me that day that we are like children before him. When I ask my children to get ready because we're leaving sometimes they ask 'Where?, Why? etc. and I'll tell them 'just get ready'. It is a joy when my children just respond in obedience and get ready to go without all the questions.
That's how it is with God. We are on a 'need to know' basis sometimes (actually a lot of times) and we should listen and trust.
God knows far more than we do. It's for our own good and the good of who knows who else?
I would say that if this Christian is willfully in rebellion to God then there is the real possibility that they are not truly saved
But just the fact that this man knows the voice of God tells me that He is saved because Jesus said MY sheep know my voice.
I'm not making excuses but I'm just wondering what happens when a man wants to marry the wrong woman so bad?? Maybe he's not there with the Lord yet on that level.
So what if your a Christian and God tells you to marry GIRL A but you disobey and marry GIRL B. Then the man intentionally marries the wrong woman and disobeyed GOD...on purpose. Let's say 6 months of God telling him No and he still does what He wants.
You know that the woman you married was God's plan because she said, "yes". Simple as that. There is no such thing as a "perfect one", and sadly that is a worldly concept that somehow has crept into the church.
I don't recall any Scriptures that say that there is ONE special person for every person and that if they can just find that person, all is well. Marriage is a means of sanctification, not of ease. It is also one of the most blessed callings a man and woman can enjoy.
Scripture is clear that we should marry a believer, and that's about it. But of course common sense tells us that we should find someone who has a similar call in life etc.
Lastly, marrying the "wrong" person is not a salvation issue at all! The ONLY salvation issue is what you do with Christ and His work on the Cross.
Greetings Silo
You wrote:But just the fact that this man knows the voice of God tells me that He is saved because Jesus said MY sheep know my voice.
___
I guess my only thought to you is this, if this Christian knows the voice of God and considers himself saved, then why did he choose to willfully disobey God? The Bible tells us that "If you love me you will obey me." Does this Christian not love the Lord? If he has been ignoring the Lord for six months and walking in rebellion to God will for his life then he is in sin and how can he be walking with God and walking in sin at the same time??
The Bible also tells us to submit our lives unto the Lord? Is your friend doing that? Is he submitting his life unto the Lord or is he being Lord of his own life? Who is making the decisions, is he submitting and obeying the Lord in all things, or is he chooses for himself what he wants in his flesh?
These are the things I would be asking him? If he willfully continues in this sin then you should take other brothers with you and share with him. If he truly believes that God has spoken to him to marry girl A and he marries another then that is rebellion and sin. the Bible does also clearly tell us how we must deal with those who profess to be a believer and walk in sin with out repenting..
God Bless
mj
Greeting roaring lamb
You wrote:Lastly, marrying the "wrong" person is not a salvation issue at all! The ONLY salvation issue is what you do with Christ and His work on the Cross.
___
I agree that marrying the wrong person is not a salvation issue, however saying that for six months you have heard the voice of God clearly tell you to do something and you have chosen to willfully rebel and disobey is a salvation issue don't you think? I would think that someone who professes to love the Lord and follow him would not continue on in sin and rebellion to Him with out some conviction and repentance...?
Can a believer go on knowingly sinning, continue in the behavior time and time again knowing its sin and still just take for granted that one day God will forgive them??
God Bless
mj
saying that for six months you have heard the voice of God clearly tell you to do something
This is the problem. God speaks [i]primarily
We however seem to make His voice into a subjective thing(e.g. feelings, voices, etc.) and then when things go "wrong", we blame God. Maybe we should ask ourselves if we shouldn't "subjectify" God?
God's Word is clear on whom we should marry, and what marriage should look like. However, we are ALL in the process of sanctification and it can get very messy at times.
I do not want to diminish the pain and hurt caused by these situations, as I have been walking down this road for almost two years now myself. But the same God who allowed Joseph to be sold by his brothers, and the same God who orchestrated the death of His Son also holds me and works everything out for my good and His glory!
Well said. But if God is speaking to someone specifically re a scenario and withholding peace, it is good to follow God's direction.
The peace of God transcends all understanding.
But I couldn't agree more that much of the time the answers are already in the bible.
Good word.
You know that the woman you married was God's plan because she said, "yes". Simple as that. There is no such thing as a "perfect one", and sadly that is a worldly concept that somehow has crept into the church.
I agree completely.
Decision making and understanding the "will of God" is a topic from which the vast majority of Christians have departed from a Biblical understanding, and it has horrific consequences.
Gary Frieson wrote an overview of his book "Decision Making and the Will of God" here: http://www.gfriesen.net/sections/willofgod_principles.php
It has still not been shown to me where God speaks to us in inaudible "voices" in our thoughts. All verses I've seen quoted can be seen to be taken out of context. We hear God's voice in His Word. We must take the responsibility to study it and know it thoroughly. The modern idea of "hearing God speak to me" usually turns into a sub-conscience cop out from knowing your Bible.
With care in Christ...
I guess my point was this, if this person knows in their heart that they have clear leading from God on what they are to do and yet they disregard this and disobey then isn't that sin. If I clearly know in my heart that God does not want me to wear revealing clothing but the Bible does not tell me exactly what kinds of clothes are permissible or not then wouldn't it be sin for me to go ahead against my own conscious and wear the clothing any way? If this christian knows that he knows he is not to marry girl B and that this is what the Lord has for him and he does it anyway then that is sin and rebellion to sin. Now you could argue whether he is really hearing from God not to marry girl B but if he knows in his heart without any doubt that he is out of Gods will by doing so then he is in sin. After all is is about the attitudes of our hearts isn't it??
This is just my thoughts and I am speaking very broad here because I do not know the person, or the entire situation, just responding to the heart of the issue. If a believer knowingly walks out of Gods will and disobeys Him then by his very actions he shows that in that instance he does not have love for the Lord because he is unwilling to obey or submit unto the Lord. I am not saying that a person can not be forgiving for this attitude but I do think it is revealing of their heart and the attitudes of their heart?
Of course we do always want to put the things we are feeling to the test in the Word. I agree but there are times when God does speak to us and if we love Him we will be listening and willing to obey...don't you think???
God bless
mj
MaryJane,
On this point, I think it's important to distinguish between God's will and a person's conscience.
For instance, God allows freedom in whether we eat meat or not. Meat is clean for us to eat. But, if a person's conscience condemns them for eating meat, they should refrain. God doesn't condemn them; their own conscience does (for whatever reason). So, in wouldn't be proper for that person to go around saying "God told me not to eat meat". Their own conscience is what is giving them trouble, not God. God says all food is clean.
Now, if this person's conscience tells him not to marry a certain person, that is different than God telling him not to marry a certain person. God allows perfect freedom for us to marry whom we want (and I'm a "Calvinist"!), so long as they are believers. God establishes parameters for making important decisions. The first being his word, second being prayer for wisdom in studying the Scriptures, and the third being godly counsel from other believers. If we are within those parameters, we can marry the person we choose. Now, if after all the counsel, the person is still struggling with if it is "God's will" that he marry the person, I agree, he probably should refrain (Romans 14), but he shouldn't tell the girl "God told me not to", because God didn't tell him not to, his own conscience is bothering him.
If something is not clearly revealed in the Word, or derived from the Word using good and necessary consequence, then we have freedom to choose in that area. This includes things like our diet, whom we marry, where we live, what vocation we choose, etc. We have parameters (God's law) in the Scripture, and we walk in those parameters. But, within those parameters, there is freedom.
Paul Washer discusses this in one of his sermons, but I can't remember which one it is off the top of my head.
With care in Christ...
Greetings Taylor
I will agree with you that there are things that are clearly spoken to in the Bible that if we love the Lord we will seek to do His will on. I also understand what you are sharing here about this person marrying this girl and that the Bible itself does not give a clear "thou shall not marry instruction" I guess I am not making clear what I was trying to share. I will consider what you shared here and pray on it. For me if I know that the Lord tells me "not to" for instance I struggle with making myself sick. The Bible does not teach that it is a sin for me to purposely make myself sick after I eat, but I know from the Lord that I am sinning against Him when I do so. If I continue doing this, knowing that it is in direct conflict to what the Lord has for me to do then I am in rebellion toward Him and I am in sin. This has been my understanding of things but I know that the Lord maybe showing me something that I have not considered before so I will put it to prayer.
Silo:I do want to clarify again I posted in very broad way on the attitude of the heart. Please do not take my posts to be as giving advice to anyone that they should or must follow. Seek God and the council of older mature, trusted brothers in your local body on this situation for they will know you best and therefore know best how to share with you.
God Bless and thank you for patiently sharing with me
Mj
It has still not been shown to me where God speaks to us in inaudible "voices" in our thoughts
You base your position on your own personal experience.
Phl 3:14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Phl 3:15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.
How does God reveal Himself to the individual? How does God give wisdom to those who ask?
In Christ
Jeff
Rookie,
His Spirit gives us understanding regarding his Scripture. Or, gives us wisdom by working in our hearts to make us desire the things of God.
I feel my argument is entirely Scriptural. If you can provide explicit reference in the Scripture to God directing believers what to do based on inaudibly speaking to them in their minds, I will prayerfully reconsider.
With care in Christ...
Taylor Wrote:
If something is not clearly revealed in the Word, or derived from the Word using good and necessary consequence, then we have freedom to choose in that area. This includes things like our diet, whom we marry, where we live, what vocation we choose, etc. We have parameters (God's law) in the Scripture, and we walk in those parameters. But, within those parameters, there is freedom.
I am not sure I agree totally with this statement brother, but I do think it brings to the table another point of view that has been running through my own mind as I have read this thread.
We can invent a whole lot of theological terms to define what we see as "the way God wills or allows things", and after a while we confuse even ourselves. I guess I tend to take a view that is much more simple and straight forward. God has a will. It is up to us to decide whether we are going to submit to that will and walk in it, or whether we are going to reject that will and do our own thing. I agree with Taylor that the only objective will of God is what we find written in the Word. It is very clearly written in black and white (and red depending on your Bible). God's will for our lives in all other areas comes through His speaking directly to us through the leadings and dealings of the Holy Spirit. I think this is where I diverge slightly from Taylor. I believe God often does have a specific will for us in areas such as spouse, vocation, location, and perhaps what I wear today (Don't go to seed on that last one and start praying over every clothing choice. There are just times when someone has felt a distinct leading from the Holy Spirit in a simple area such as, "wear the red shirt today", and has found out it there was a divine reason for it.) This type of revelation of His will is subjective and needs to filtered through His objective will, His word, as well as discussed with mature spiritual counsel if it seems a fairly life changing thing.
To me, this is pretty much the extent of it.
I would also submit that God does not always "get His way" so to speak, and intentionally so. He has left some things up to us. The example mentioned previously about His desiring that all come to repentance, and not all do. There are some areas where God has put the ball in our court. It does not make Him any less Omniscient or Omnipotent. It simply means that He has decided to do it that way. I guess you could say that in some areas it is His will not to have it according to His desire.
Oh, Taylor, I would ask you to consider this as to the question of God speaking to people inaudibly. If God says a thing to a person, that person would use the terminology "God spoke to me", or "God revealed to me", or even "God showed me". Never have I heard anyone use the terminology, "God just inaudibly gave me a thought in my mind that I recognize as Him." I would encourage you to look at every instance in the NT where you find God speaking, revealing, ar showing someone something and look at the circumstances around that event. I can tell you from my own experience that God reveals things to me and gives me direction quite often in this way.
Jonah willfully rebelled but God dealt with him severely. "To whom the LORD loveth He chasteneth and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth". The chastening and the scourging are for the rebellious. There will be at times where you'll go one way and God is pulling you in another and eventually you will go Gods way.I would say that if this Christian is willfully in rebellion to God then there is the real possibility that they are not truly saved
God will speak to your spirit which carries the message to your mind. Sometimes God will speak audibly with us, but those times are less frequent than speaking to our spirit.It has still not been shown to me where God speaks to us in inaudible "voices" in our thoughts.
No your not going to find what I have just said in the bible. You won't find a MacDonald's Big Mac in the bible but we know it's real because we have seen it and tasted it. So it is with hearing the voice of God. We don't see Him, we don't hear Him audibly speaking to us, but we hear Him in our spirit.
Greetings Deepthinker
I said there was the "possibility" that the person was not saved not that they were not saved. There is a difference, and we are told to examine our hearts daily so that we will not be deceived. I kind of feel like you took what I wrote out of context, not sure why you would do that??? I also wrote that I did not believe that the person choosing girl a over b was a salvation issue but that if he has an attitude of heart where he willfully is in rebellion to God then there "possibly" could be an issue there? Did you read the rest of what I wrote in that post?
_____
One who is truly living for Jesus will bare fruit to such, they will still struggle with sin, but when convicted of the sin, they are broken and repent before God. At least this has been my understanding of this kind of thing.
God Bless
mj
MaryJane, I just want to let you know I understand your point of view and it is mine as well.
I would suggest to those who will disagree with this point that the Holy Spirit does lead and direct us in everyday affairs to ask the LORD to help you be sensitive to his Spirit when He speaks. Now, if you are so accustomed to doing things your own way, you likely may not hear his leading in your spirit because it is not in tune with God.
And how does this leading sound like, look like? To begin with you need to spend time in the WORD and in prayer before you start your day. Then in your communion you ask him to direct your affairs and to help you be sensitive to his spirit as He leads you. During the day you will sometimes get the sense that you should do this or say that but your sense of logic will rise up and argue with this 'sense'. If you listen to logic, you will quickly discover you should have followed this 'sense' instead - you would have saved yourself a lot of grief.
As I read the OT and see how God spoke to the prophets and how they obeyed and were great because of it, I wonder what is keeping [i]me[i]want
If your knowledge of God, his will for life is limited to the academic, you will in no way understand a word I said...
DeepThinker said it well when he said this:
God will speak to your spirit which carries the message to your mind. Sometimes God will speak audibly with us, but those times are less frequent than speaking to our spirit.
No your not going to find what I have just said in the bible. You won't find a MacDonald's Big Mac in the bible but we know it's real because we have seen it and tasted it. So it is with hearing the voice of God. We don't see Him, we don't hear Him audibly speaking to us, but we hear Him in our spirit.
Blessings,
ginnyrose
twayneb,
Thanks for your insight, brother. I would not hesitate to say that the Holy Spirit guides and directs our will. I believe Paul teaches this in his letter to the Philippians: "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13). I had a friend in college who said he was apprehensive to say "the Lord told me to say/do this", but after the fact, he could comfortably evaluate the situation and say "that was of the Lord". I think there is a difference. The first basically declares ourselves a Protestant Pope, and the second recognizes God working in our everyday affairs.
I guess I just don't see the Lord and the Apostles making listening for these inaudible voices as big a deal as it is often made. Jesus speaks of His sheep "hearing His voice", but I believe, in context, He is referring to "hearing/accepting" the preaching of the Gospel. His Sheep hear the gospel and respond. They hear His voice through the preaching of the Word.
John says that we know we love Christ if we keep his commandments. By commandments, I don't think he meant things we hear in our mind, but rather the clear, objective word of God. This is not to deny a vibrant, spiritual internal life. I believe all Christians should have an intimate, warm communion with Christ throughout the day through meditation and prayer. But, I believe Christ speaks back to us in the Scripture, not in our thoughts.
I hope you don't see this as cold or Pharisaical.
Praying for wisdom and light on this matter...
With care in Christ...
Mary Jane I completely apologize. I didn't even read that post that had that quote in it, I took that quote from someone responding to your post. A foolish move on my part, it won't happen again, thank you for pointing that out to me. :-oI kind of feel like you took what I wrote out of context, not sure why you would do that???
I took one line out of that post that sounded the harshest.
Please forgive my mistake. :-(
Silo wrote:
So what if your a Christian and God tells you to marry GIRL A but you disobey and marry GIRL B. Then the man intentionally marries the wrong woman and disobeyed GOD...on purpose. Let's say 6 months of God telling him No and he still does what He wants.
Who told who what about who you should marry? What I mean is, did God supposedly tell you directly or did He supposedly tell the girl and then she told you, “the Lord said we were to get married”? That is what I’m trying to find out from you, because everybody has tried to help you with this for the last month and you are still asking the same questions! Something is not settled in your mind and heart.
More importantly, the Lord himself said, “MY sheep KNOW my voice and none other they will follow.” Now either 1) you know & heard His voice but you are in rebellion to His word or 2) you do not know His voice OR 3) the voice you heard was not His.
If God really spoke to you, Silo, I don’t think you would be STILL wondering if this was God or not and the reason I say this is that God spoke to me a few years ago and told me to quit smoking. It scared me so bad I quit and I loved smoking! I'm not telling you this to brag but to say that I have never had any qualms that that voice wasn’t God.
Answer me (or us) this: Are there other people involved that believe they’ve heard God as well about your situation?
hi, the will of God is our only aim...the center of the bulls eye...God lets us live under the will of grace untill we are perfected into the perfect will of God.jimp
Taylor,
It is so very true that the Holy Spirit uses the Scriptures to guide and direct a person. He will not violate any of the principles revealed therein.
However, in life many decisions need to be made and which way does one go? Or, how should one proceed? and where to? These questions arise where there is no moral principle involved. Some choices are very benign - do we have soup for supper or should it be hamburgers? Then there are choices made when one goes shopping, e.g. What do I buy? and which? Is God interested in how one spends his money? I believe He is. Usually, when I go shopping I will ask the LORD for guidance in this expedition, especially when shopping for a gift or a major item. When one prays before getting on the road, asking for protection on the highway plus making the shopping trip worthwhile, I always find a real sense of pleasure that God has been with me, directing my choices. God knows that without Him I make poor choices. When I decide that I am going to do what I want regardless what God says or wants, I run into grief. Everytime.
Having said all this, does this mean that when God has directed one in life that there will be no storms? No. But it does mean that the Holy Spirit will be there to calm the storm when it does occur. Consider the incident when Jesus told his disciples that they need to cross Galilee to get to a place on the other side. After they got going a major storm came up and they thought the boat will capsize. And where was Jesus? Sleeping! Was Jesus surprised by the storm? No. Did he know it was going to happen? I would think so. Luke 8:22-25. So is life.
It seems to me one should be very careful about telling people the "Lord told me... and so I did." For the most part this is something between you and the LORD. Pride can enter in and one can become very haughty. Sounds like sin, don't you think?
This is my understanding ...
Blessings,
ginnyrose
Greetings Ginnyrose
You wrote:As I read the OT and see how God spoke to the prophets and how they obeyed and were great because of it, I wonder what is keeping me from having that kind of relationship? There is nothing except ME. I stand in the way for this to be a reality on my own life. Since this is the case it is in my best interests to take the yoke of Jesus upon me and allow Him to lead and not buck when he wants to turn one way and I [think] I want to go another. To do so invites disaster and grief. Jesus died, and cleansed me and now I want to stay close by him. Simple as that.
___
I agree with this completely. You said it so much better then I:-)
God Bless
mj
Greetings Deepthinker
Thank you very much for your kind post. I hold no ill feeling toward you at all. If I came across as harsh in any way please know I did not mean to and accept my apologies as well.
God Bless you brother and keep you
maryjane
ginnyrose,
I agree completely with what you wrote. I also think it is godly and wise to pray for wisdom when going shopping, driving, etc.
You noted that there are often decisions the Scriptures do not address. I believe these are situations where we pray for wisdom, then apply the Scripture principles we know and make a Biblically-informed decision. But, I do not believe we must wait for a "feeling" or "thought/voice" to direct us in these decisions. I believe God directs us to take responsibility and make Biblically informed decisions in these areas. For instance, when considering a job, we should examine if there is a good local church to be involved in, if I will be partaking in anything sinful, will the location be beneficial for my family, etc. After we have considered those things and prayed for wisdom, we are free to either take the job or leave it - both options are within God's moral will.
What I see with those who rely on an inaudible voice (which they believe is from God) to direct them in these kinds of decisions is that they are actually doing the [i]exact opposite
With care in Christ...
Thank you. :-DI hold no ill feeling toward you at all
hi, the only person in the bible that had a multitude of counsel who was on Gods side was jonah as they threw him off of the boat...all of the others heard voices and saw visions...faith still comes by hearing...none of the people of faith heard preaching...Jesus even told peter that flesh and blood did not reveal this truth to him but My Father in heaven...paul said who art thou Lord etc. jimp
TaylorOtwell wrote:What I see with those who rely on an inaudible voice (which they believe is from God) to direct them in these kinds of decisions is that they are actually doing the
[i]exact opposite[/i] of what Scripture says to do. Scripture says that in a multitude of counselors there is wisdom, but these say that the thoughts in their head trump all counselors
The post is about God's will and not about wisdom, when it comes to doing Gods will sometimes the last thing you need to do is speak to others but go with the conviction that God has laid upon your heart.
Here is an example....
Acts 21:4 And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, [b]that he should not go up to Jerusalem.
The counsel of many don't go to Jerusalem.
Acts 21:10-11 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus. And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.
Warned by a Prophet that the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man that owns the belt.
The Prophet doesn't say go or don't go only that the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns the belt.
Acts 21:12 And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem.
Again the counsel of many is not to go to Jerusalem.
What is Pauls reply Acts 21:13 What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.
Paul wanted to be in Jerusalem for Pentecost Acts 20:16 why he wanted to be there I don't know did an inaudible voice tell him well I just don't know but there must have been some strong conviction for him not to listen to the disciples at Tyre, Philip the evangelist his family and all that traveled with Paul.
I don't know did an inaudible voice
This is my point. There is no explicit reference that I'm aware of to God leading someone by an inaudible voice.
To me, it's more strictly Biblical to claim you saw a vision, heard a voice (audibly), etc... But this concept of an inaudible voice is one that I can't find in the Scriptures, yet it's how many people operate today.
With care in Christ...
I hope you don't see this as cold or Pharisaical.
Taylor: Don't see it as cold or being a pharisee at all. Also don't see recognizing and declaring that God has directed you to do something before you do it as being like a protestant Pope.
I can only speak to you from experience. I have only once in my life had anything like a vision or an audible voice. It was a time of very intense prayer that came on me very suddenly. God showed me in some "pictures" some things about His plan for my life that are very vivid. I often hear the voice of the Lord in my spirit or mind (however you want to define this), and I have learned to know His voice as well as I know the voice of my wife. It is not audibly discerned, but spiritually.
Let me give you just one example. I was serving in leadership in a local church. We had quite the children's ministry and needed a bus to pick the children up for church. One became available from a local Bible College and was auctioned off in a sealed bid process. Two other leaders and I all independently prayed about how much to offer. God spoke to each of us the same amount of money. Other times in ministering to people, God has used me in the gift of the word of knowledge and has given me supernatural revelation about a person's situation that I had no way of knowing in the natural.
Praying for wisdom and light on this matter...
I appreciate this attitude. Like I said, I can give you my own experience.
God bless you brother!
Travis.
What I see with those who rely on an inaudible voice (which they believe is from God) to direct them in these kinds of decisions is that they are actually doing the exact opposite of what Scripture says to do. Scripture says that in a multitude of counselors there is wisdom, but these say that the thoughts in their head trump all counselors.
You are correct. There are immature or deceived people who do get into error, supposing their own ideas are the voice of God. But this does not mean that all are this way. I have been around long enough to see some pretty flaky stuff, and people getting off into error. I have also seen and experienced the genuine.
If you feel you have heard the Lord speak to you directing you to do something and are not sure, I suggest the following. First, filter it through the written word. All subjective revelation must be ran through the filter of the written word. Your question is, "does this violate the word?" This assumes you are consistently in the word and have a good knowledge of it. If not, go to step two. Second, discuss it with a very mature saint who you know to be genuinely led of the Lord.
Ultimately though I think Jimp is right. We need to come to a place where we recognize the leadings of the Holy Spirit and follow Him. It is part of walking by faith.
Again, blessings brother!
Travis
twayneb,
Thank you for your insights.
Pressing on with you...
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