Higher Education

I have not been able to enjoy myslf here as much as I would like, due to school starting up for me and having to look for a new job.However, I wonder how many of you have had any formal theological training? If so, where? If not have you learned by yourself, or from a study with a group? I am preparing to go to seminary (maybe) in a year, and I would like to know more of you alls background. PS. I realize I wrote "you alls", and I almost changed it, but I am from Oklahoma, so I left it.

krtrek, Don't hold back. Tell us what you really feel. Actually, I feel the same way, and I guess I was too much of a wimp to say it before. That is why I posed the question, because I wondered if any of you had formal education. I have had a very big debate in my mind for about 5 years now about the importance of seminary. I find some who swear by it, and some who swear at it. Any more thoughts from anyone?

I'm with Ktrek! (for the most part)I'v always had a desire to serve the Lord and yet I have never thought Bible college to be right for me. Hungry for God after graduation, my mother called Leonard Ravenhill for me to ask if he could recomend any good Bible school. I was surprised when he told her no. He said that every Bible school he visits he finds kids excited about every subject except the Lord. He advised me to pass on Bible school and just read 2nd Timothy every day for a month. While I'm sure that there are certain advantages to Bible school, for the most part I have seen them generate little more than swelled heads. It amazes me that the general lay people in today's church think that Bible college is a must for ministry, the danger of this is that lay members who have not attended any such school see themselves as unfit for ministry and leave the brunt of ministry to the "qualified" ministers. The body of Christ is becoming more and more unbalanced.I am currently in full time ministry, however it was not my education that led me to this posistion, it was my experience. I still have no formal Bible training, but I love and consume the word of God daily. I do not claim to be called into ministry, I just understand the importance of eternal things and have chosen to devote my live to them. I will continue to do this in or out of a full time ministry posistion. If you can go to Bible school and keep your love and passion for the Lord, then go for it. You can't know the word of God too much, just don't let it become a source of pride. God will judge us by what we did, not the information in our heads.PJ

Well guys you have hit on a topic that has been of great concern to me lately, I feel that the Lord is calling me deeper to serve in a greater capacity for Him.....I have a tendency to be a more structured learner and have a tendency to look for the way to be printed out for me. So with that I have been looking for a bible school as well, but as you well know the "menu"is endless and the I don't have a clue as to where to start, or to start at all.Maybe I"ll take Ravenhills advice and read second Timothy for a month. Ultimately I know I need training in his word, for myself and not to make an impression on others...but do I step up to the plate and allow the Holy Spirit to do this or continue to look for an "institution" to guide me?...but where could I find good solid biblically based teaching without gaining more of the "flavor of the hose" than of those teaching. I know that Times Square Church has a school but it is based more for younger adults(I just turned 40!!!) and those that feel that they have been called to the mission field, (which is not totally out of the realm for me as of yet) what do you think?

sdb,Have you considered home courses? If you're disiplined, this could work well for you. I am currently enrolled in Berean University, this is a home based Bible curriculum for the Assemblies of God. It is required to become credentialed with them. It's the same material that is covered in A/G Bible colleges, you just do the work at home. You can go the cheap route, or you can pay quite abit extra for college credit. I am currently enrolled, however, I am quite the undisiplined student, so I am not getting very far.Nothing wrong with Bible School as long as you can keep the fire. Just seek the Lord and let him guide you.PJ

I am currently attending Lee University's Charlotte Campus, which is affiliated with the Church of God (Clevland, TN), going on to my second semester. I am personally have mixed feelings about Bible School/Seminary. I plan to go all the way with my education. However, I am only doing so for my "circumcision of academia." (as I like to call it) Not because I expect to learn a ton of things about the Lord and the Scriptures that I have not already known. Though, that is not to say I will not learn anything. I would say so far, there are some classes where I actually have learned good things. Mostly, as far as I can tell, academic learning is mostly for the purpose of giving you the tools to be able to read and write on a higher level. Thus, if "the clergy" start speaking their funny speak, you would be able to know what they said, and be able to act accordingly. There is some good stuff, but, I suppose it depends what you want to do with that stuff you learn. A lot of academic learning is just so you can be fluent on a number of thoughts.

"Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John, and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were marveling, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus" Acts 4:13 (My emphasis).I have used the "cemetary" description for "seminary" more times than I can count, so I think you can count me with Ktrek. Consider for a moment that today's "biblical" higher education is very much like the system the pharisees and sadducees had in Jesus' day; it was the arrogance and seeming "authority" that their education had given them that led them to reject Jesus:Matthew 21:23 And when He had come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to Him as He was teaching, and said, "By what authority are You doing these things, and who gave You this authority?"Tragically, I have seen this at work many times in the Church today -- so often I see someone with a genuine message from the Lord dismissed because of their lack of "covering" or "credentials." The interesting thing is that historically God has usually worked (with some exceptions) through the uneducated -- those who are simple enough to actually believe what the Bible says.Now comes the interesting part (I think): I am currently receiving formal training in biblical studies (although not at a seminary but at a secular institution). I am confident that I am in the will of God in so doing. (Edited: I am afraid that this has been misunderstood; please see my post later in the thread for clarification.)Essentially, what is most important is that we enroll ourselves in the School of Christ -- He is the only Teacher we need. If we think we will gain spiritual understanding through formal training, we have begun the process towards spiritual death. All formal training can do is provide one with the tools to dig deeper, but if we have not already dug into the Person of Christ, it will be of no benefit at all (one can't dig deeper if one hasn't already started digging). Instead, it will simply inflate our egos. Once we have become permanent students in the School of Christ, he may send us through institutional formal training (for whatever purpose). I, however, think these cases are rather rare and are the exception rather than the rule. Those who are considering formal training must definitely be led of God -- be absolutely certain that it is His will before you move. If in doubt, just dig into the Scriptures, which are far better than any seminary or Bible school (unfortunately, many seminaries and Bible schools spend time everywhere BUT the Bible).

I think it all depends on one's heart. If you are sincerely going out of a pure desire to know GOd more and you feel that God is leading you, then I say go. If you are going because you don't trust that God can teach you just as much if not more without going, I say pray more about it because you probably have a serious faith problem and don't know and trust God very well. There's lots of stuff that's not in Scripture that most consider to be ok. For instance pulpits, choirs, programs (man made) to sponsor, help, and feed the poor and needy, pipe organs, piano's, paintings, man made internet sites with audio sermons on them, books on prayer and/or revival, New Testament's! The list could go on and on. Some think that they have the insight to know where to draw the lines. Sure the legalistic people that Jesus came against had theological schools. They also memorized Scripture, so is that wrong? And is "scripture memorization" ever specifically prescribed in the Bible? I see meditating, but not memorizing. You may say that it is implied or is a practical way of achieving the end of hiding the Word in your heart, abiding in the Word, etc. But similar arguments could be made for going to a theological school. I think it's can be dangerous and it's wise to use caution here, but it's not clearly wrong. Who has the authority to draw absolute lines about things that Scripture doesn't draw clear lines about? I think the only possible person who has the authority to do this (besides Jesus communicating to each individual) is a pastor to his flock. But I am not even sure about that.I just graduated from Westmont, a "Christian" institution but it's considered a "liberal arts college." I am considering more academic training but don't think I will do it. I am hungry for experience in the field. I have thought for awhile now that if you want to learn big lessons, you have to take big chances. Theological school can commonly be an easy, comfortable, and sensible "next move." We just have to seek the Lord and trust Him and not shy away from the calling.

I am afraid that perhaps my first post has been misunderstood a bit. I stand with Ktrek here -- the institution has choked every bit of Christ and the life out of the Body that it has been able to do thusfar. The day is coming and now is that God will say "come out of her, my people, that you do not share in her sins."Quote:"Yes. I believe that it is God's will for many people to go into secular and even bible schools to get training the in the WORD of God."This is a misunderstanding of my post; keep in mind that Jesus is the Word of God. It is also a fallacy to assume that Bible school and seminary focuses purely on Scripture in the first place. Ktrek is correct in saying that the first order of business is to learn tradition, doctrine, and business. Scripture may be used for this, but it is no more profitable than using Scripture as kindling for one's fireplace.I made the comment that I am currently undergoing a formal education dealing in large part in biblical studies. I think it is necessary to point out that this is being done at a secular institution (Florida State University -- one of the benefits of a secular education is that there is less opportunity to become entrenched in Church tradition, but the difficulty is that one is constantly faced with humanism). As much as anything, I serve as a walking testimony to others in my department, including the professors who rarely encounter someone who genuinely knows the Christ of the Bible.My purpose in taking this route has never been to grow in Christ; this is not dependent on what I study, but upon how I live and whom I serve. I know God has led me down this route, but it is clearly not to be a part of the institutional church, nor to revive something that cannot live (for it is an abomination to God). Rather, by the very fact that I do know Jesus Christ, I serve as a witness of Jesus Christ to the scholars and students with whom I study. I had this witness before I began taking this major, and by God's grace will have this witness upon completion of my studies.Again, I must emphasize (for I do not think it was understood clearly the first time) that it is only the life of Christ within us that can teach us. Jesus is the only Teacher (those who disagree with me can take that up with Jesus himself -- Matt 23:8). Higher religious education (or secular biblical studies education for that matter) will not bring one into the knowledge of Christ. Reading all the reference materials and revival books in the world and listening to sermons will not do it either. Dare I say it: reading the Bible and praying will not produce the Life of Christ either.Remember that the Pharisees did all this (plus fasting!) and rejected Jesus (he wasn't part of their system). Most of the biblical studies professors I have had (I say "most" because I have had one who was a genuine believer and a testimony of Christ) do not know Jesus Christ -- despite the fact that they know the Bible incredibly well.The only thing that can produce the life of Christ is to fully surrender one's life to Christ. Then and only then can one's spirit and mind be awakened to the truth in Scripture. Only then one can truly pray. If we are seeking this power in education, we are seeking it in the wrong place and it will bring disappointment and death.What then is the purpose of religious higher education? Most of the time, it is useless. On occasion, God will call someone (Paul, for example) who either already had this education or will call someone to go through this type of education for the purpose of bringing glory to God. But God can only receive glory from one who is a true witness with the life of Christ within them. It is no different than being a businessperson who is a missionary to the business world. Some are missionaries to scholars (a hard task!).Be warned: if you pursue God through established institutional lines, you will lose him among the pathways of men. If you pursue God on his terms, he will live in you and you will go wherever he sends you as a witness of this life. Only choose "religious education" (whether it be secular, seminary, or Bible college) if one is certain that God is sending one there as a witness and with a purpose. It will not aid one's search but will instead bring confusion to one who is not firmly grounded in the Rock of Christ.

When I first sensed the call to preach, I immediately enrolled in Bible college. I soon found that this had been a mistake on my part. I was not ready spiritually or emotionally for Bible college. I was still living in a state of spiritual "high" as a result of my experience when God called me to preach. The academics weren't really the problem, I just was not ready to be around so many people who it seemed to me were not really serious about God. Anyway, after two semesters, I was done with at least THAT Bible college. To be sure, there were a lot of good things available there that one could learn. (I still would really like to learn biblical Greek and Hebrew), but at least for me at that time in my life, it was not the sort of spiritual environment I needed. I eventually pursued correspondence courses in Bible and ministry, while working at my local church in whatever capacity the pastor asked. I would like some day to attend seminary, not to become "a professional" so much as to study in a more structured and challenging environment than just studying on my own at home, as well as the interaction with other sincere students of God's word. While I certainly agree that higher education CAN have negative effects upon Christian spirituality, we should always keep in mind that one of the greatest revivalists ever, John Wesley, had an earned master's degree from Oxford University. Wesley was once taunted by an uneducated preacher who said, "I was talking to God the other day and he told me that He didn't need your education." To which Wesley replied, "You're certainly right. But neither does God need YOUR ignorance." LOLPeople I have known personally who have sought seminary or Bible college training have in fact all admitted that without the presence and teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit, all their education amounted to nothing. Education only supplies a person with tools for ministry, like learning how to examine Scripture to better grasp its meaning or how to prepare an effective sermon or how to lead a counseling session, etc. How well a person allows the Spirit of Christ to lead them in their ministry depends not on anything other than their prayer life. In Christ,John Earphttp://revivaltheology.net

Kevin,Earlier I said that I was with you for the most part, however, I think that you are wrong to be so absolute and judge others as not spiritually mature to think different than you. Yes, for the most part I have seen Bible schools to have more of a negative impact than positive, but I am in no way ready to say that they are not or could not be of God. I have no desire to go to a dead lifeless Bible School, but if the Lord was to resurect the disciples, Ravenhill, Wigglesworth, etc, and give me a chance to spend a year or ten years to learn under these men, I would jump at the chance. Would this not be a type of school? Would I be unspiritual to desire such teaching? Do you read any other book besides the Bible? Is this Biblical? Is reading other books not a form of "higher religious education?" One of the greatest problems I see with Bible schools is that they focus too much on imparting imformation that can not really change lives. I could not think of a Bible school that I would recommend in today's world. However, if an institution existed that was led by Godly men who were on fire for God and they could effectively teach the word or God, fire, prayer, and could turn spiritual babes into men, I would say go for it.Still with you for the most part, just not so absolute!PJ

KtrekSpiritual education is what is really important and I think the best thing you can do is find a place with like minded believers who want to walk in love and work out the truth together. You will experience more growth in 4 years in this kind of environment tha you would ever get in a seminaryOutstanding comment!Welcome to SermonIndex School of The Most High!(My apologies to Greg.... ;-))I have been enrolled here for two months and have gotten more knowledge, more encouragement, found more truth, more of our Lord in more people who have a heart for the truth, who genuinely care and want to learn and share than in any church or setting so far to date. I pray I never graduate!Mike

It amazes me every time there is a good thread going, of the amount of excellent discussion that happens on this site...once again Greg I thank you...I generally agree in part that formalized Christian Education can have drawbacks, and ultimately we must trust in the word of God and His Spirit to guide us in all truth. But I also belive that the many good men have gone before us that have shown amultitude of experience in their knowledge of ewhat God has imparted to them. So my question is is where do we go to find such teaching in our Earthbound community? I really don't believe their may be any such place at this current time....not yet.....If you were to develope a curriculum of Biblical knowledge that you felt was absolutely necessary (inclding all sources) for someone that felt was called to the ministry, what would that list look like, and why? Big question, but I know you guys have lots of time on your hands.....LOL scott :-D

Interesting you mention Horatius Bonar today. Guess what I was reading for the first time this morning? If Crsschk sees this he might lose it. I just received my copy of "Words Old and New" and in the introduction, which I just read, it states:"The main facts of Bonar's life can soon be told. Born in a godly home, where his much loved father died when he was thirteen, he was educated at the Edinburgh High School where his brilliance as a classical scholar was evident even by his early teenage years. He entered the University of Edinburgh and then its Divinity School, where his principal instructor was Thomas Chalmers, the greatest Christian, in his opinion, that he ever knew."- pp. xi

Whatever a "moderator" is supposed to be, here is my humble attempt.First off, excellent discussion as usual!Had written out a rather longish reply last night but the discussion has given me pause to consider much.I think there are valid arguments on both sides even if my leanings might be more in line with Kevin's. Could we agree as a whole, that the structure of the system of 'higher education' is overwhelmingly not Christian? Even the colleges that started out on these principles no longer adhere to them. We have professors in so called Theological institutions who don't even believe in the fundemental's of Christian thought. The enerancy of scripture, our Lord's bodily resurrection and so forth. On the flip side we do have much to be thankful for from those who have gone before us and have left us 'lay' people the bible translations, concordences, books, etc. so that we can, if we choose to, study on our own.As was previously stated from those who have been in seminary or bible school, there can be much that needs to be unlearned. You can almost see it breaking on two lines. Education vs Spirituality.Forgive me, but I would like to take Todd as an example. Here is someone who has just graduated and just has a heart for the Lord. Both.I am sure I could have gained much by going beyond high school as far as reading, writing, studying history and it would have gone a long way in helping me transfer thoughts into words as opposed to these rather drawn out, clumsy attempts and run on sentences that you may be reading right now.But the inherant danger is that the world's thinking has so crowded out Christian thought in many of these places that I wonder if there is more harm than good. What is the fruit?Here are a few ramblings from a 'fishermens' mind that I wrote last night for your amusement:There seems to be a strong suspicion that I have towards much of what is passing for "Christianity" these days. There are a lot of well meaning people out there, but that doesen't mean that they are walking in the truth. I pray that I am not misunderstood here, I have a looooong way to go. But the overiding factor is superficiality, and I have to wonder sometimes if many are even aware of it.Are there any schools out there that are teaching spiritual knowledge, not head knowledge, heart knowledge? You would think if there was we would have heard about it by now. If Tozer or Ravenhill were teaching, would I be in there class?Why? Because they cut to the quick, because it matters, because I can actually use this information not only for myself but for others. I actual am studying under them right now and others, these just happen to be my teachers, these books, that are changing my 'theology', my presupositions. If I could gain spiritual knowlege in the same fashion from an institution I would be there tomorrow.There just seems to be a tolerance for tolerance, a shallow chit chat, small talk, surface level to much of the church and even a majority of believers. It seems so contrived. Phony. When did an all powerful God get regulated to a 'concept' that is contained in Christian lingo, that's just 'nice', don't get all bothered by it all.No wonder Jesus said He would spew it out of His mouth.I tend towards a bottom line.You are going to die.It is a thought that I try and keep ever present before me. It helps when I start to drift into a state of unbelief, when things 'seemingly ' are spinning out of control and when I need to focus on what is important. What is it I am supposed to be doing, with this in mind? What are we all supposed to be doing?At that moment all will be prepared either for one of two realities, like it or not and the success right is outstandingly high.We can go waxing on eloquently about any number of things, learn and grow and put into practice all the knowledge we have gained. Hopefully with the assurance that it is in His service to meet His ends and we still get a benefit out of it, because there is nothing under the sun better than to be smack dab in the center of God's will.It is always a spiritual issue in the end.What is it that we can take with us, on departure?What will we leave behind?What really matters?What words do you want to hear when you take that first breath on the other side?"Well done good and faithful servant" are the only ones I want to hear.We are on a temporary stay here, this is not our home and our time is limited."So what?!" is the question really.So what would you have us do, Lord?Just some things to chew on.I have nothing against higher learning as long as it is higher or deeper.We owe a debt of gratitude to those who have made it easier for us 'lay' people by giving us tool's, books, translations of Greek, Hebrew, who have done the hard work to put this into our hands. So I don't see how you can knock all of it. Where did they get their education? Surely there are some who have come out of seminary and become great teachers of Gods word.

Hey ToddInteresting you mention Horatius Bonar today. Guess what I was reading for the first time this morning? If Crsschk sees this he might lose it.I love it! :-D :-D :-D

SDB, I have been in the preliminary stages of getting a sort of weak attempt at this "basic curriculum" of biblical knowledge, but I think it will take a good bit of time before I have it. Just letting you know that there is work going on as far as this (between the work for classes).

Ktrek said:Were the twelve in a college or seminary? Timothy? Titus? Jude?While they did not go to a formal school of any sorts, that is not to say they didn't devote a lot of time and energy to studying the Scriptures.... line upon line, precept upon precept. One thing I've liked about Bible school is that it's given me a lot of time to really dig into the Scriptures. I would not have the same time to study the scriptures had I pursued another course of study at college.

Wrtbooks said:OK. so you think that any of the apostles went to a secular institutionLet's all not forget that the apostle Paul taught at a secular school/college (Tyrannus) while in Asia Minor for two years. While an assumption, I'm sure that this school had some sort of regulations that they asked Paul to follow. I'm sure it was a bit institutional. As a result of Paul's teaching there (amongst other activity) all of Asia Minor was evangelized within 2 years (see Acts 19:8-12)

Hey Greg,I find it hard to agree to this blanket-statement that 'all' institutions or most of them are 'not Christian'! I still believe that many of the 'higher education' schools do foster postitive spiritual growth in Christ and for ministry.I wasn't very clear on that. Colleges that are now 'secular' in thinking, that were founded on Christian principles originaly.Also, 'the structure of the system' I guess I was lumping everything together here. I was thinking in terms of the way of the world's secular system, amongst other things.But I digress here.It wasn't really necessary for me to add my two cent's on a subject I have little knowledge about in the first place. A lot of this was piece mealed together and not very well thought through.Some of the more recent events in the news regarding the church...re writing the bible to support their particular views influenced my thoughts.I am going to spill out my heart here! I have been praying to God to show me if I have been at all wrong in my thinking or direction and he has clearly shown that what I abhor the most about the 'superficiality in Christianity' is what is in my heart. I was broken when I realized I have been so quick to judge all of Christianity but to look into my own mirror and see the same in myself. We need to pray for God to quicken ourselves and the Church, but for God's sake let him start the flame of revival in your own heart first. He need vessels that are willing for this. I am really feeling that even though I have had alot of good intentions, but my critical spirit has almost condemned myself. I am just praying for revival now and I want to start people in my church praying for this also even though for some reason I think I am above them spiritually. That's the problem we get so spiritual that we think we have to get away from weaker brothers in the faith but the reverse is the truth. We who are strong must strengthen and support the weak (gal 6).Thanks for the rebuke brother, it is not the first time today that I have had to reconsider some things I have thought, said or done. I have a loooonger way to go than I thought and need to pay more attention to one of my favorite scriptures..1 Cor 10:12Forgive my arrogance.Mike

Jesus said, “My house shall be called a house of prayer.” Unless we seek the Lord, and His wisdom you will never know God’s true plan for your life. Bounds said that Love for God is impossible without prayer. He is right. We are the house for the Holy Spirit of God. If you (you = God’s house) is not a house of prayer, then how can your home, you and your spouse (and children) be a house of prayer. If you are not a house of prayer, then the church you go to will not be a house of prayer. This is a necessity. The question is not should I go or not, or are they all of beneficial or not. The overwhelming question is Where does God want me to go? God may send you as a missionary into the most liberal of all schools to just see one poor mixed up liberal saved or corrected. God may send you into a liberal school to see a campus revival break out. The Lord taught me a principle through my Grandfather. He was saved to the bone and love the Lord. He continued to go to the Catholic Church to speak to the priest about Christ. (I have talked with this priest and I doubt he is saved) (For the Pharisees who do not like my comment about the Catholic Church or the priest not being a Christian, man you need to wake up and smell the stench of death within the churches in America)Back to the point. The Lord does show many to go to college, seminary, ect. Our training comes from the Lord, not men. Sure God uses men to teach us, but still the origin is God. If it is man, it is dead. Paul was taught all things “by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit”. It wears me out to hear people talking about wanting to know what God wants them to do and they aren’t being obedient to what God has shown them to do now. People will not devote themselves to prayer. I know an evangelist who did an area wide seminar for pastors. 100 pastors showed up and not a one of them said that they started their day off with prayer. No wonder our church members are going to hell and the Christians don’t weep for the lost.I dare say that at least 90% of the people who post on this site spend no more than 15 minutes in prayer, I mean real prayer where you get down on your knees before the God of this universe and seek His will for your life and cry out for the souls of your family members and your friends and the people in you area. Wake up Church. The satanic church prays and fasts for the demons to move and you wont even pray for you lost family members, how do you expect God to show you were to go to school.Did I upset you. Good, maybe you will do something now!

This is a reply to to my own reply in regards to what Greg had to say.I do want to elaborate more on all this later, but my time is short so for now a quick note.Public forum. Public confession.I have to ask for your forgiveness in any of my recent comments that were said in ignorance and/or with a critical spirit. Thank you Greg for having the gumption to point this out. The Lord has shown me this as well. I am truly grateful to be humbled and shown where I am in error. I have much more to say on this and hope to do so with a little more tact.Mike

I always hear so much about being a Paul and a Timothy. Learning from people. Let me ask you, who was a Paul to Paul? Who did Moses learn from? Where did Jeremiah learn to weep for his nation? If you look at the truly great prophets in the Bible, they learned in the school of the Lord. Do we not believe this can still be applied to day?

I always hear so much about being a Paul and a Timothy. Learning from people. Let me ask you, who was a Paul to Paul? Who did Moses learn from? Where did Jeremiah learn to weep for his nation? If you look at the truly great prophets in the Bible, they learned in the school of the Lord. Do we not believe this can still be applied to day? As I read this thread, I keep getting this odd feeling that some people are misunderstanding the position of those who believe Bible schools can be a good idea. I don't believe anybody here is advocating that Bible school be the primary source of understanding the deep things of God. Without a doubt, the primary school God is concerned about has to be the school of the Spirit, the school that meets in the wilderness. From the impression I have of my experience thus far at Bible college, I don't believe too many people that are going there are expecting Bible school to be the primary source of their understanding. I know I am not expecting any radical doctrinal shifts in my thought process because of what I learn from "higher learning." I might have a doctrine or here that God checks me on through it though. I've found that I've been challenged more by fellow believers outside of class, than what I actually learn in class itself. And not so much as to the point of rethinking what I believe, but expanding in depth and width the things I already believe. Maybe where I go is unique, as I do not doubt that most of the individuals I interact with geniunely love God. In reality, my Bible school, and I would dare say many others, happen to be "glorified" sunday school lessons. That is, we come together as believers to learn the things of God, and take into consideration a more "formal" way of conducting this study.

The following schools stand out in my mind as places that seem to me to be in keeping with the heart of God for revival, missions/evangelism, and intercessory prayer. If my situation in life were different (I'm very happily married with a beautiful baby daughter), I would jump at the chance to attend any of the following schools.Rees Howells, noted prayer warrior and revivalist of the early 1900s, founded the Bible College of Wales, which carries on his vision today:http://www.biblecollegeofwales.org/Group/Group.aspx?ID=1046David Wilkerson has founded Mt. Zion School of Ministry:http://www.worldchallenge.org/mtzion/mzsom.htmlDuncan Campbell was associated with Faith Mission Bible College in Edinburgh, Scotland.http://www.faithmission.org/home/about.htmHolmes Bible College sounds like it would have a positive Christian atmosphere for ministry training:http://www.holmes.edu/I have heard really good things about Zion Bible Institute in Rhode Island:http://www.zbi.edu/As far as seminaries that would reflect a revivalistic approach, I would opt for Asbury Theological Seminary in Wilmore, KY (Wesleyan-Arminian), or Church of God Theological Seminary in Cleveland, TN. I am sure there are still some seminaries whose leadership and students have a true hunger for God and due respect for His Word.

The fact remains that if we use ANY English translation of the Bible, we are by definition depending to a large degree upon the education and scholarship of others.Bible colleges and seminaries do not and can not ever replace the gifting and power of the Holy Spirit. And I have no doubt those who teach at or attend such schools know this full well.http://revivaltheology.net

Church of God Theological Seminary in Cleveland, TN. I am sure there are still some seminaries whose leadership and students have a true hunger for God and due respect for His Word.Although I am not the most thrilled about the COGTS from Clevland TN from an academic stand point (it could be better), several of my teachers at Lee University (their undergrad school) are absolutely phenomenal men of God who are very gifted teachers. That's not to say their theology is perfect (though I do agree with them on many points, and still other points I'm still open to futher searching the scriptures). However, their experience at COGTS they say was absolutely life changing. I would highly consider going there for my masters degree (though I probably will not for a few academic reasons where I have interest in areas that they do not require for their program).I hear from my pastor that the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary is also very good.

Public forum. Public confession. Continued.....It is with kindness that I have taken the comments of both reply's to my earlier erroneous assumptions regarding higher education.beauxpIt wears me out to hear people talking about wanting to know what God wants them to do and they aren’t being obedient to what God has shown them to do now. People will not devote themselves to prayer. I know an evangelist who did an area wide seminar for pastors. 100 pastors showed up and not a one of them said that they started their day off with prayer. No wonder our church members are going to hell and the Christians don’t weep for the lost.I dare say that at least 90% of the people who post on this site spend no more than 15 minutes in prayer, I mean real prayer where you get down on your knees before the God of this universe and seek His will for your life and cry out for the souls of your family members and your friends and the people in you area. Wake up Church. The satanic church prays and fasts for the demons to move and you wont even pray for you lost family members, how do you expect God to show you were to go to school.Did I upset you. Good, maybe you will do something now!I was having myself a nice little 'mountain top' experience for awhile there and what was one of the main things I neglected? Prayer. Go figure. Your words are correct in my case, prior to this I would spend much 'time' in prayer, something I prefer not to put numbers in, lest I give off the wrong impression.....Let's just say when you are in serious prayer, time is not a factor and generally you are hardly aware how much of it has passed. Fortunately, I have been thrown off the mountain, it is not where I belong, spiritually, I have a lot to learn. On my knees is where I belong. Thank you also for provoking me, the Holy Spirit confirmed with conviction and now onto action! God Bless you!Greg,Brother your words have been echoing in my head and the Holy Spirit also confirms with conviction and with His help unto action.I am going to spill out my heart here! I have been praying to God to show me if I have been at all wrong in my thinking or direction and he has clearly shown that what I abhor the most about the 'superficiality in Christianity' is what is in my heart. I was broken when I realized I have been so quick to judge all of Christianity but to look into my own mirror and see the same in myself. We need to pray for God to quicken ourselves and the Church, but for God's sake let him start the flame of revival in your own heart first. He need vessels that are willing for this. I am really feeling that even though I have had alot of good intentions, but my critical spirit has almost condemned myself. I am just praying for revival now and I want to start people in my church praying for this also even though for some reason I think I am above them spiritually. That's the problem we get so spiritual that we think we have to get away from weaker brothers in the faith but the reverse is the truth. We who are strong must strengthen and support the weak (gal 6)."What I abhor the most about the 'superficiality in Christianity' is what is IN MY HEART. I was broken when I realized I have been so quick to judge all of Christianity but to look into my own mirror and see the same in myself."If this statement doesn't peg me to a "T", I don't know what will. God forgive me for my stupidity! What shallowness and audacity. Who the_____do I think I am?I am really feeling that even though I have had alot of good intentions, but my critical spirit has almost condemned myselfIn my case I am condemned and rightly so.That's the problem we get so spiritual that we think we have to get away from weaker brothers in the faith but the reverse is the truth. We who are strong must strengthen and support the weak (gal 6)And some of us only 'think' we are so spiritual....Thank God that those who are have the guts to straighten out blabber mouths like yours truly......I indeed have much, much to learn. I think I have a clearer understanding of the saying 'They are so heavenly minded, they are no earthly good'. Some of us are not so spiritualy mature to be able to handle that kind of rarified air.You both have done a great service to myself by your words of kindness, to have not done so would have left me in delusion. I cannot thank you enough.I will leave off with this tidbit.I have a dear friend who I liken to a modern day John the Baptist. He fears no man when it comes to sharing the Lord, he would not fit in to any modern form of evangelisim, long hair, always has a John 3:16 shirt on, never without his bible. If you are near him, you are going to hear about Jesus. Period. He recently took a long bus ride across the country to go see his kids, talk about your captive audience!He was having a conversation with a guy, sharing Christ with him while a number of others where listening in, this man was really hearing him out, asking questions, he was trying to explain some of the law, of breaking the ten commandments (I had given him a copy of Ray comforts "Hells best kept secret") how the Lord loved him despite all that he may have done, when at one point a couple of "Christians" jumped up and yelled "He's going to HELL, if he doesn't believe in Jesus!" The man replied to my friend "I don't want THEIR God, I want the God you are telling me about" this truly saddened my friend and he was contemplating, praying how to answer both the man and the "Christians". This caused no small commotion as others joined in, to the point where the bus driver had to intervene, my friend stood up and said "It's me, I started all this". Later he was able to go and ask the "Christians" this question; "Are you happy that you are going to be in heaven, while this man goes to hell?" One of them said "well my dads a pastor and........." I guess they just didn't 'get it'.Fortunately, by the time the bus had stopped the man and my friend were able to exchange numbers, the seed was planted, the right seed. Do not be too quick to condemn the man who no longer believes in God: for it is perhaps your own coldness and avarice and mediocrity and materialism and selfishness that have chilled his faith. ... Thomas Merton (1915-1968)

PreachingToCannibals wrote:Although I am not the most thrilled about the COGTS from Clevland TN from an academic stand point (it could be better), COGTS is fully accredited by ATS. This is the frist I've ever heard anyone question their academic quality. Hmmm.I hear from my pastor that the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary is also very good. Yes, that is my understanding as well. I'm fourth generation A/G in background, now ordained CoG. From what I know AGTS and Asbury TS are very expensive compared to COGTS.

COGTS is fully accredited by ATS. This is the frist I've ever heard anyone question their academic quality. Hmmm.Don't get me wrong, I am sure COGTS has a pretty good program, but as far as the type of classes/programs they offer, I think it could be better. I think their MDiv program could use less Pentecostal Studies type classes, and more of other things. Don't get me wrong though, I'm very much Pentecostal in conviction, and believe both AGTS and COGTS to be very good schools... I just don't think they need as many classes on Pentecostal studies, especially since a lot of the classes are already going to take into account the Pentecostal perspective on things. I think (from the programs I've observed) could probably put a little more focus on the original Biblical languages (they typically require only a little of either hebrew or greek, instead of both.)

Bless you brother. Thanks for your honesty.Mike