End-Time View

I believe pre-milleniual is the more apostolic view.

As for the timing of the rapture I will not dis-fellowship with brothers over this issue. I am more towards a post-trib stance but I do hope sometimes it is pre-trib. I will not argue with God when I am being raptured :)

Pre -Millennial and post trib rapture.

:-P Oh LORD, I hope this thread stays sane. After I drop this bomb maybe it won't. :-P

I hold to the Preterist view, which I believe is more accurate to Apostolic teaching (sorry Greg).

There are no "gap theories" and "this generation" means THAT generation that heard it since it was that generation that was asking the questions.

There was a resurrection of the saints that occurred AFTER Christ rose from the grave (at what point is uncertain). I believe in a "catching away", but not how the mainstream portrays it. However, I am like Greg, I won't dis-fellowship with anyone on this issue.

It's important to me that Christ is living and ruling now, not in some future kingdom of God in Jerusalem.

Eschatology has always highly interested me, especially since it's one of the things that the Lord used powerfully to instill the fear of God in me and draw me to Christ for salvation.

I believe in Historic Premillenialism. It's historic because it traces back all the way through church history to the Apostolic church. It's Premillenial because it says that Jesus Christ will return literally and physically before the literal Millennium. The rapture, the first resurrection, and the Second Coming happen at the same time (after the final tribulation). The restoration of God's chosen nation, Israel, is on the horizon in this view, as they cry out for salvation toward the end of the tribulation, believe in Christ, and see Him come in the clouds to rescue them in the nick of time before they're all exterminated.

A good website promoting this position was put together by brother Eli (who sometimes posts on these forums). You can find it here: http://www.olivetdiscourse.com/ -There are also some good articles from recognized men in church history.

A very good explanation of different end-time viewpoints, along with a good case for Premillennialism, can be found in Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology, for those interested. Grudem presents the main schools of thought along with their reasoning from the Scriptures, but then explains why he believes Historic Premillennialism to be correct.

I believe this is similar to (or identical to) the view Art Katz held.

No way Deepthinker, I knew there was something funny about you :) Can I ask you when you came to your preterist position?.......brother Frank

You might wish to call my comments 'debris', but to me, there is a great gulf between what Jesus said 'In the world you shall have tribulation', and, the pre-trib view.

If there is a 'great tribulation', it is more likely to be because of the global village - that there is no-where safe to be a Christian, than that tribulation has suddenly got worse than, for instance, being tortured to death for the Faith. I have no idea how a pre-tribulationist could look a persecuted Christian in the eye, and tell them the tribulation has not yet begun.

I know, that if I'd been beaten regularly for my faith, or had my husband murdered for turning from Islam to Christ so that now me and my children were starving, or been in prison in disgusting conditions and seriously molested again and again, or had my children mocked all the way through school and given lousy marks because they were Christians (so they could never go to university), or had to watch them die of illness or being beaten for Christ, I would think I was experiencing 'tribulation', and I would think that this was 'the world's reaction to my faith in Christ, and I would expect Him to be very real to me during those awful times, knowing that He said 'Be of good cheer. I have overcome the world'.

The other main thing I have trouble with, is the term 'the second coming'. Because Christ already came a second time, when He rose from the dead. And there are so many threes in scripture, each next one offering an increasing revelation of the same truth, that I have a BIG problem with any interpretation which has Christ in person on earth, living with sinners like He did before. I just don't see that happeneing.

As some of you know, I believe the cross is the 'rod of iron', because of where historically, iron fits in Nebuchadnezzar's statue. The Romans took Judea just before Christ was born. The cross is His ruling sceptre and those who have never bowed to it willingly, will be rejected when He returns. However, to those who come to the cross, 'with mercy's mildest grace, He governs all our race' (our race being those who have been born again - the holy 'nation'.) God has been a God of second chances for centuries, but I believe at Christ's return (His third coming), that it will be too late for repentance.

Okay, here's another one. Israel. Why in Exodus 19:5, did God say 'because all the earth is mine'? And, how is that Abraham was to become 'heir of the world' (Rom 4:13), if God does not intend to give His people - the whole believing remnant - the whole world to dwell in at some stage? And ;-) just for the record, I do believe in a new heaven and a new earth, because this appears to agree with what John saw, and, the Old Testament pronouncements that this creation will be folded up and put away, one day.

So, now you see what I meant by 'debris'.

To Alive-to-God

Christ HAS told us that we (ALL BELIEVERS) would all have tribulation in this world. However, there is a great difference with the tribulation that the saints have faced since the beginning, and the Great Tribulation that takes place during the last 3 ½ years of the Tribulation when [color=990000][b]God pours out His Wrath on a God rejecting, God hating world. Only non-believers, that have been left behind, will experience God's wrath![/b] The Believers, God's Church, will be in heaven, with their new resurrected bodies like that of Christ, waiting to return with Him in Glory, when He ends it all by the Words from His mouth, as He begins His millenial reign on this earth. All of those that came to belief in Messiah during the tribulation, and have been protected by Christ in the wilderness (probably Petra), will enter into the Millenial reign with bodies of Flesh and blood, and have billions of Children during the 1,000 reign of Jesus Christ upon this earth.[/color]

Trying to figure out what is going on in the Book of Revelation can be frustrating. We can gain a better understanding of Revelation by looking at Jesus' Olivet prophecy recorded in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. This prophecy is rather long, so for reference I've included some of the most important scriptures relative to from the Matthew 24 account of Jesus' words.( For study purposes I suggest reading the full accounts in all three books).

"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass,[color=990000][b] but the end is not yet.[/color][/b] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. . . .

[b]"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: . . . .[u] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.[/u][/b]

"Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. . . .

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. " (Matthew 24:1-9, 15-16, 21-22, 26-27, 29-31)

[color=990000][b]In the Olivet prophecy Jesus provides us with a basic outline of the events leading up to His second coming.[u] In Matthew's account Jesus speaks of a Great Tribulation which will be like nothing the world has ever seen (Matthew 24:21-22 ). It will be so bad that if God does not intervene, humanity will be destroyed.[/u] After speaking of the Great Tribulation, Jesus warns his disciples about false Christs and false prophets who will seek to mislead them into believing Jesus has already secretly come (Matthew 24:23-26). But Jesus says that when He returns everyone will see Him. He uses the illustration of lightning, which is hard to hide, as everyone can see it (Matthew 24:27-28). Jesus continues, saying that after the Tribulation the sun will darken, the moon will not be as bright and stars will fall from the sky. Then, after all this He will return, with everyone seeing Him. A trumpet blast will also accompany His return (Matthew 24:29-31).[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

Alive-to-God wrote:

You might wish to call my comments 'debris', but to me, there is a great gulf between what Jesus said 'In the world you shall have tribulation', and, the pre-trib view.

If there is a 'great tribulation', it is more likely to be because of the global village - that there is no-where safe to be a Christian, than that tribulation has suddenly got worse than, for instance, being tortured to death for the Faith. I have no idea how a pre-tribulationist could look a persecuted Christian in the eye, and tell them the tribulation has not yet begun.

I know, that if I'd been beaten regularly for my faith, or had my husband murdered for turning from Islam to Christ so that now me and my children were starving, or been in prison in disgusting conditions and seriously molested again and again, or had my children mocked all the way through school and given lousy marks because they were Christians (so they could never go to university), or had to watch them die of illness or being beaten for Christ, I would think I was experiencing 'tribulation', and I would think that this was 'the world's reaction to my faith in Christ, and I would expect Him to be very real to me during those awful times, knowing that He said 'Be of good cheer. I have overcome the world'.

DELETED

So, now you see what I meant by 'debris'.

Hi waltern,

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my 'debris' post. I notice you didn't address most of my stumbling blocks, and, you think Christ is planning to come twice more, not once. I must say, I don't 'see' that in scripture.

Moving on:

when He ends it all by the Words from His mouth

and have billions of Children during the 1,000 reign of Jesus Christ upon this earth.

I didn't mention before, but I don't know why people think the 'great tribulation' lasts only seven years, and that we can be sure something happens exactly in the middle of it. And who is going to decide it has begun? Who is going to announce it? What are the marks of its beginning, that we may know when the middle is?

2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

I find that the majority of believers do not want to investigate audience relevant information but they rather continue believing in the errors that the church has been chewing on for the last 100 years. There is a tremendous amount of prophecies that are fulfilled that people are still trying to put into our future and they will never come to pass...never.

None of the prophets spoke extensively about the resurrection until the New Testament rolled around. Even Martha knew something about the resurrection. She said, "I know he will rise again at the last day". John 11:24 She knew about this last day. And Paul spoke TO HIS AUDIENCE in those times as the days they were living in that something was about to take place. Hebrews 1:2, (last days) 1Peter 1:20 (these last times), 1John 2:18 (last time) 1Peter 1:5 something was going to happen in their day.

For example, Acts 2:17, When we read that, no one gets it. The majority of believers put that prophecy still in the future and yet Peter was drawing from Joel's prophecy showing that this very thing was happening and he referred to HIS (peter's) day as being "the last days".

But no one wants to hear that. There is much dynamite in that bomb my friend, because if it should ever explode the bible will become a different book because all the errors that we have once believed about the Thousands years, the gap theory, and the Pre Mid and Post Tribulation Rapture teachings will all fall away like dust to the wind. I can't find any where the things that I used to believe concerning a Pre and Post Trib Rapture. You will not find a seven year peace treaty with Israel in the bible. That is the basis of the seven year tribulations doctrines.

And know one wants to find out if the bible is right.

and the Great Tribulation that takes place during the last 3 ½ years of the Tribulation

No way Deepthinker, I knew there was something funny about you :) Can I ask you when you came to your preterist position?.......brother Frank

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I'll let those verses soak in.

"Where is the Seven Years of Great Tribulation to which 3 1/2 years are Wrath? Just because Jesus said that there would be Great Tribulation doesn't mean that it's seven years. He was saying that the time in which Jerusalem would receive it's judgments it would be Great. There is no mention of 3 1/2 years or seven for that matter.".....DeepThinker.

Daniel 9:"Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.'

" In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "

"In the middle of the week, "seven", "He" will put an end to the sacrifice. This is the 7 year period and
this is where you get the 3 and 1/2 years....and...

Matthew 24

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.".....Jesus of Nazareth

"Tribulation, great tribulation, such as not has been, "no, nor shall never be."

The Week of Daniel, as verified and prophesied by the Lord. There is going to be a seven year period, and the elect will be here to endure it, and overcome. It will be bad enough that the Lord will shorten the days thereof for the sake of the elect. Sounds like wrath to me.

To DeepThinker,

The resurrection had not yet occurred, but it was coming but it wasn't past as Hymenaeus and Philetus had said to which Paul had to write and correct that error.

This is the topic of Phil Goble's excellent half hour sermon on The Empty Tomb. Your tomb is going to be empty one day, but where will you be when Christ has judged you? (To you brother, that's a rhetorical question. To any unbeliever reading, this matter is of the utmost importance to you. You need to make every effort to be 'in Christ' before you die, so that when He calls your body out of the grave, it will be to eternal [u]life[/u].)

Brother Tom what translation are you using?

Brother Tom what translation are you using?
Deepthinker

I read the NASB and NKJV mostly, with KJV salted in. Much of my bible that I paste in my responses are from a great site, biblegateway.com, ....[great site and free.]

I usually paste the bibles quoted,...[ they have about a hundred of them..] but I didn't catch it, and their default bible is NIV, which I really do not like. The first part of my RE: to you is NIV, regrettably.

Daniel 9, and his abomination prophesy is a great study, and there must be about 5000 books written about it. I hope I didn't come off caustic or dogmatic, but I do think it is clear that there is a terrible judgement coming upon the earth, and Daniel was given an "event calender" and some numbers of days by the LORD.

See Isaiah 24.....I hope this helps. May we all give ourselves to Jesus to be ready.

"Those that He loves, He rebukes and chastens.."

Hi Brothertom,

Please take a look at [url=http://olivetree.com/bible/]olivetree.com online bible search[/url] which links from the foot of their front page.

(This link should take you straight to the Bible search function.)

Its default is the NKJV, and they don't have a free NIV included in the search options. I'll leave you to take a look, as you can compare more than one version at once if you like. It is very uncluttered compared with biblegateway.com, and the verses always appear in Bible order.

You can set the search to one book or a small section of the Bible, or one testament, or the whole book, using single words, or, a phrase of up to four words. Sometimes I put in the most likely keyword, and then use the edit menu 'Find on this page', quickly to find the verse for which I'm actually looking. It cuts and pastes on SI, very easily. (Less so into email.)

Daniel 9:"Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolation's have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' " In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. " "In the middle of the week, "seven", "He" will put an end to the sacrifice. This is the 7 year period and this is where you get the 3 and 1/2 years....and...

The first part of that is this, The 70 weeks start at the decree to rebuild Jerusalem which was in 2Choronicles 36:22,23. We'll have to dig further to find out the date when that decree was sent out. The other verse concerning that is in Ezra 1:1,2 to rebuild Jerusalem UNTO Messiah shall be 69 weeks. Verse 29 says that AFTER 69 weeks the Messiah would be cut off.

What comes after 69? The final week in which Christ would come and be cut off. The purpose of these events was to lead up to that final week in which Jesus would come to be cut off.

Going back to the rebuilding of the Temple. When you read during Ezra and Nehemiah times they were constantly on guard and ready to fight while building the Temple. They were always harassed and the work was held up and then stopped and then resumed again under another king.

The Anointed one being cut off in the midst of the week and having nothing means that He would have had left no seed to continue his line. That is what it means to be "cut off", it's a devastating blow to a family that has a son who dies and left no heir.

He will confirm the covenant with many for one seven, to bring it up to the English, for one week. That is that final week AFTER the 69 weeks have been fulfilled. Now, when Christ died in the midst of that week, the wheels of prophecy didn't end there, that week kept on going until it fulfilled itself to the end, that is the end of that prophecy of the 70 weeks of seven.

Now keep in mind that we are still in the first century here while this is going on.

In the midst of the week Jesus will put an end of the sacrifices and oblations by His death.

And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation

The King James renders it, "and for(because of) the overspreading of abominations He shall make it desolate."

Now, this whole prophecy is fulfilled. The 70 weeks are done and over with.

There is much to share in these verses, but it is in exhaustive subject.

[b]The Seventy weeks of Daniel is a detailed study, and can surely not be done on this type of forum. If you are truly interested in understanding this subject, the following link is excellent:[/b]

These are links to 3 videos, that will provide clarification to all:

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I67rpwWMSZQ&feature=player_embedded]The 70 Weeks of Prophecy of Daniel, Video #1[/url]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u6nFALImag&feature=related]The 70 Weeks of Prophecy of Daniel, Video #2[/url]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyg5pJhwVAM&feature=related]The 70th Week of Daniel, Biblical Time explained Video #3[/url]

[b]Also, after viewing the videos, to go deeper into this study, please go to this website:[/b]

[url=http://endtimepilgrim.org/70wks1.htm]Daniel's Prophecy of the 70 Weeks[/url]

God bless,

Walter

DeepThinker wrote:

Daniel 9:"Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolation's have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' " In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. " "In the middle of the week, "seven", "He" will put an end to the sacrifice. This is the 7 year period and this is where you get the 3 and 1/2 years....and...

But that doesn't still prove anything, it only confirms what I have been saying.

DELETED

ADisciple said

But "Elijah" is yet to come prior to His second appearing, prior to "the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD" (Mal.4.5).

But "Elijah" is yet to come prior to His second appearing, prior to "the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD" (Mal.4.5).

Please READ, don't SKIM over it as if these verses mean nothing. Thank you.

Matthew 3:2-4 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
[2] And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
[3] For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
[4] And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

2kings 1:7-8
[7] And he said unto them, What manner of man was he which came up to meet you, and told you these words?
[8] And they answered him, He was an hairy man, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite.

Matthew 11:7-15
[7] And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
[8] But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
[9] But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
[10] For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
[11] Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
[12] And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
[13] For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
[14] And if ye will receive it, THIS IS ELIJAH, which was for to come.
[15] He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Alive-to-god wrote: Quote:

"What could be more of a 'great and dreadful day of the LORD' than when He was crucified?"

ADISCIPLE wrote:

"The day in which the judgment of the Cross is fully executed upon the whole world is the great and fearful day of the Lord. That day hasn't come yet... although I believe (in the great judgments of recent years) we are seeing the first rays of its dawning."

The judgments on the earth on that DAY...
THE DAY OF THE LORD!

Isaiah 24 (New American Standard Bible)

Isaiah 24
Judgment on the Earth
1. Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2. And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.

3. The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled, for the LORD has spoken this word.

4. The earth mourns and withers, the world fades and withers, the exalted of the people of the earth fade away.

5. The earth is also polluted by its inhabitants, for they transgressed laws, violated statutes, broke the everlasting covenant.

6. Therefore, a curse devours the earth, and those who live in it are held guilty Therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left.
7. The new wine mourns,
The vine decays,
All the merry-hearted sigh.
8. The gaiety of tambourines ceases,
The noise of revelers stops,
The gaiety of the harp ceases.
9. They do not drink wine with song;
Strong drink is bitter to those who drink it.
10. The city of chaos is broken down;
Every house is shut up so that none may enter.
11There is an outcry in the streets concerning the wine;
All joy turns to gloom.
The gaiety of the earth is banished.
12. Desolation is left in the city
And the gate is battered to ruins.
13. For thus it will be in the midst of the earth among the peoples,
As the shaking of an olive tree,
As the gleanings when the grape harvest is over.
14. They raise their voices, they shout for joy;
They cry out from the west concerning the majesty of the LORD.
15. Therefore glorify the LORD in the east,
The name of the LORD, the God of Israel,
In the coastlands of the sea.
16. From the ends of the earth we hear songs, "Glory to the Righteous One,"
But I say, "Woe to me! Woe to me! Alas for me!
The treacherous deal treacherously,
And the treacherous deal very treacherously."
17. Terror and pit and snare
Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18. Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit,
And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare;
For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19. The earth is broken asunder,
The earth is split through,
The earth is shaken violently.
20. The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard
And it totters like a shack,
For its transgression is heavy upon it,
And it will fall, never to rise again.
21. So it will happen in that day,
That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high,
And the kings of the earth on earth.
22. They will be gathered together
Like prisoners in the dungeon,
And will be confined in prison;
And after many days they will be punished.
23. Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed,
For the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,
And His glory will be before His elders.

Matthew 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. Matthew 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed.

Verse 11 is not a future restoration as you have suggested, because when we read verse 12 it says, "But I say unto you, That Elijah has come already.....".

Jesus did not deny the future event, but indicated Elijah was already in their midst and prepared the way for His coming. Also note with the following passage that the Disciples of Jesus believed Elijah of Malachi 4:5 had yet come to “restore all matters”. It was yet a future event, which is quite apparent even now that is: it is still a future event.

Matthew 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but YOU KNOW HIM; for he (speaking of Himself) dwelleth with you, and shall be IN you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:28 I proceedeth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Acts 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Anyone can take verse 16 and take this out of context and shoot it forth into our future (I am sure someone has) but it belongs right here, just like Elijah in John belongs in the past fulfillment.

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, LIKE UNTO ME; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I SPEAK UNTO YOU I SPEAK NOT OF MYSELF: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

1 Thessalonians 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for THE WRATH IS COME UPON THEM TO THE UTTERMOST.

Thanks Murr for stirring up the ole bones. I enjoyed how the scriptures were all coming together as I typed that. That was fun!

Man oh man how I miss the preview feature.

Dear Murrcolr:

John the Baptist was a “type” of Elijah. Reincarnation has no place in God's scheme of things. The real Elijah will return during the Tribulation, and will be a witness to the entire world, and God will protect him from being harmed. When it is time, God will allow him to be killed, and he will resurrect from the dead on the third day, and ascend into heaven for all the world to see.

Elijah never died. We know that flesh and blood cannot inherit eternal life. Elijah must die, in order to receive the resurrected body of Christ.

All believers, that are alive on this earth before the tribulation will receive their new resurrected bodies at the rapture (before the Tribulation.) Those that have died before those that are still living will receive their new bodies first, and then we, that are alive will recieve ours, and join the Lord in the air, and return to heaven during the entire 7 year Tribulation..

All believers in Jesus Christ have ALREADY been delivered from the wrath to come:

10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (1 Cor 1:10)

Elijah and probably Enoch (who never experienced death)—the “two witnesses” ---do not appear on the earth until after that time. They are both in a specail place, waiting for this moment in history, when for 3 ½ years they will be on the earth, during the first part of the Tribulation, they will witness in Jerusalem, and bring millions of Jews to a saving faith in Christ Jesus, the Messiah. They will both be killed, and on the third day both will be resurrected from the dead, and ascend into heaven. Again, this event will bring millions more Jews and also millions of Gentiles (those Gentiles who did not take the mark of the beast) to belief in Jesus Christ, the Messiah, God in the flesh.

Revelation 11:3-12
[b]3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.[/b]

13. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

[color=990000][b]This is a wonderful time to be alive on this earth, as we see history line up with this prophecy. Israel is a nation again, after almost 1,000 years of being dispersed. No other nation has done such a thing. They are not only a nation, they occupy the same country God gave them to start with, with the same cities, and they have the same language that God gave them- Hebrew!!! This can only be of God. Read about all of the miracles that occurred in each one of the wars they have been involved in with the many Muslim nations that have collectively come against them. What an awesome God we serve!!!![/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

Hello AD, Thanks for the further exposition of how you understand the scripture. I hear what you're saying about the future tense, and will have to study around that now.

Hello waltern,

It has fascinated me since I first heard the idea that Elijah didn't 'die' when he was taken up to heaven, that anyone can believe this, especially as he appeared in a transfigured body on the Mount with Moses and Christ.

The real Elijah will return during the Tribulation, and will be a witness to the entire world, and God will protect him from being harmed. When it is time, God will allow him to be killed, [b]and he will resurrect from the dead on the third day, and ascend into heaven for all the world to see[/b].

Doesn't his, (and Enoch's) catching up into heaven, simply prefigure that of the one we await for ourselves, (as you mention), in which we do not expect to have to be killed (for instance, by a sword, be buried, rise again etc) before we can ascend to join the Lord in the air at His coming?

Why would God keep Enoch and Elijah out of His presence for thousands of years, when the whole reason He took them that way was because they walked with Him in deep fellowship?

Hello Alive-To-God:

you asked:

[b]
and he will resurrect from the dead on the third day, and ascend into heaven for all the world to see.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where in scripture do you find the assertion I've emboldened, please?

It can be found in the verses that I previously posted (Revelation 11:3-12):

3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.[color=990000][b] 8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.[/color][/b] 9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.[color=990000][b] 11. And after three days and an half[u] the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.[/u][/color][/b]

As far as the rapture that occurs before the Tribulation, it is not clear if those that are alive will be killed by God, so that we can receive our new glorified bodies of flesh and bone, or some how be vaporized. God could merely "remove' our souls from our corrupt physical bodies and implant them in our new glorified bodies. What we do know is that [color=990000][b] flesh and blood cannot inherit eternal life[/color][/b]. Our flesh is from Adam.[color=990000][b] God will also completely destroy the entire earth in order to create a new heaven and a new earth. The earth that we have, as well as the heaven (our atmosphere) has been corrupted by Satan as well, and must be replaced by God with a new, uncorrupted heaven & earth, where we can worhsip Him and fellowship with Him forever. [/color][/b]

In regards to Enoch & Elijah, this might help:

Question: "Why did God take Enoch and Elijah to Heaven without them dying?"

Answer: According to the Bible, Enoch and Elijah are the only two people God took to heaven without them dying. Genesis 5:24 tells us, "Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away." Second Kings 2:11 tells us, "...suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind." Enoch is described as a man who "walked with God for 300 years" (Genesis 5:23). Elijah was perhaps the most powerful of God's prophets in the Old Testament. There are also prophecies of Elijah's return (Malachi 4:5-6).

[color=990000][b]Why did God take Enoch and Elijah? The Bible does not specifically give us the answer. Some speculate that they were taken in preparation for a role in the end times, possibly as the two witnesses in Revelation chapter 11:3-12. This is possible, but not explicitly taught in the Bible. It may be that God desired to save Enoch and Elijah from experiencing death due to their great faithfulness in serving and obeying Him. Whatever the case, God has His purpose, and while we don’t always understand God’s plans and purposes, we know that “His way is perfect” (Psalm 18:30).[/color][/b]

God bless,

Walter

Elijah never died. We know that flesh and blood cannot inherit eternal life. Elijah must die

Matthew ll:10-14 says that John was Elijah. And then Jesus says this classic saying, "He that hath ears to hear let him hear". He also says, "If you can receive it".

I would have to come to the conclusion that there are brethren that are not hearing it and can't receive it.

I am rather stupid on some issues regarding the word of God, but this is the easiest to hear and receive.

To DeepThinker:

Let’s reason together.

Elijah was taken by God, in a whirlwind. He never saw death.

John the Baptist was a baby in the womb of Elizabeth, and born as a baby.

God does not allow reincarnation. Satan teaches reincarnation to the lost.

John the Baptist cannot be Elijah.

John the Baptist is a “type” of Elijah only.

Hope that makes sense to you.

God bless,

Walter

Hi Walter,

Only by assuming the two witnesses are Elijah and Enoch can you attribute to their 'lives' the interpretation you give.

And, a place for them [i]not[/i] in God's presence (as no man has seen God save the Son) has had to be invented, to accommodate the belief that they could be taken to heaven in a sinful state, and [i]not[/i] be at rest with others who have died. It would seem something so important to understand, as where the 'two olive trees' come from, could have received a little more attention within the revelation of the whole of scripture.

Also, for them to be 'olive' trees, wouldn't they have to be properly Jewish, both of them?

mercloor posted:

[b]
Walter Elijah the man who left in the Chariot will not be back, it will be a man "a type" like Elijah. What you will have to look out for is his name because his name will mean what God is going to do.

Elijah means The Lord is God, Elijah in his day had to confront Baal worship, Baal means Lord. So God's message through the prophet was The Lord is God not Baal.

John the Baptist, John means Grace, God through this man was letting everyone know that the age of Grace was upon them.

I could go on and on here about men of God and there names but haven’t got the time.

So God’s chosen vessel that will arise will be have a name that will carry a message of what God will do in this generation.

Dear murcloor:

[b]Does Scripture have anything to do with your conclusion about Elijah?[/b]

This is an analysis, that uses Scripture to come to a different conclusion than what you have posted:

[b]The Two Witnesses During the Tribulation[/b]

Chapter 11 in the book of Revelation describes two witnesses during the Great Tribulation who will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth. They have the power to breathe fire, shut up the sky so that it won't rain, turn waters into blood, and strike the earth with every kind of plague. (Rev. 11:6) Afterwards, they will be killed, left to rot in the streets for three days, and then be resurrected to the astonishment of the world. These two unnamed witnesses will then be called to heaven in a cloud, with their enemies staring after them. Who are these unusual individuals with such delineated roles?

[b]The Prophet Elijah Will Return Before Jesus[/b]
The great prophet Elijah lived during the reign of several evil kings in the Old Testament. At the end of his time on earth, a fiery chariot with horses of fire suddenly appeared and took him up to heaven in a whirlwind (II Kings 2:11), so he never died a death like other men. Then 500 years later but still 400 years before Christ, the prophet Malachi said God would "send the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the Lord (Mal. 4:5-6,)

[b]At that time, even theologians didn't understand the near and the far views of Messianic prophecy, and the two separate times He would come. Jesus' disciples didn't understand, either. They asked Him to explain the prophecy about Elijah after marveling at the transfiguration (Matt. 17: 1-3).

"Jesus replied, 'To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they have done to him everything they wished....' Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist (Mt. 17:11-12)." Apparently John the Baptist was the prototype or "type" of Elijah, and they are left to mull this over. During the conversation, Jesus doesn't mention He will come twice, leaving the mystery intact.[/b]

[b]Elijah had Similar Powers to the Two Witnesses of Revelation Chapter 11[/b]

Just like the two witnesses in Revelation, Elijah had the power to shut up the sky so that it would not rain. In I Kings 17:1, Elijah told King Ahab, "There will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word." Three years later, God told Elijah to present himself to Ahab "to send rain on the land (I Kings 18:1)."

It is imperatice to support our opinions with Scripture. Afterall, this is Sermonindex, a Christian Website.

God bless,

Walter

To Alive-to-God

Where is Enoch and Elijah? Did God whisk them to heaven or some other place?

Many Bible readers have been mystified by the "disappearance" of these personages. Some believe they are evidence that those who die righteously go to heaven. Of course this is a big misconception, so what did happen to Enoch and Elijah?

Let's begin with Enoch. There are only two Scriptural passages that mention him by name. The first one is found in the book of Genesis, chapter 5 and verse 24. Let's see how the various Bible translations render this verse (Genesis 5:24):

"23. And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24. And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

Now lets take a look at the second scripture that mentions Enoch by name:

Hebrews 11:5
" 5. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

The most significant aspect of these two Scriptures is the fact that neither of them say Enoch went to heaven.

The word rendered translated in the Greek, μετατίθημι, is Strong's Concordance #3346. It means to transfer, transport, exchange, change sides, carry over, change or remove.

We read in John 3:13 :

"And no man has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of man who is in heaven. "
Also Acts 2:34 :

"For David did not ascend into the heavens but he said himself: 'The Lord said to My Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, till I make your enemies Your footstool.' "
Both Enoch and David were long dead when Jesus and Peter made those statements. This is positive proof that neither Enoch nor David were taken to heaven, at least the "heaven" where God resides.

What about Elijah? Let's look at 2 Kings 2:1, 11 :

"And it came to pass, when the Lord was about to take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven " (2Kings 2:1, 11)

[b]What few people realize is that the Bible discusses three types or kinds of heaven. Briefly, the first heaven is the atmosphere or sky that surrounds the earth, the second heaven is the physical universe that has stars, planets and so on, and the third type of heaven is where God's throne resides. [/b]

Which heaven then is 2 Kings 2 verses 1 and 11, mentioned above, referring to?

The word translated heaven in 2Kings 1, 11 comes from the Hebrew word shamahym (שׁמה שׁמים, Strong's Concordance #8064). It is the plural form of the Hebrew word shameh which means to be lofty, the sky, the visible arch in which the clouds move. Its certainly not the heaven where God's throne is.

Neither man went to heaven, to be in the presence of God. They went to wherever God sent them, to stay alive, until they are needed in the end times.

God bless,

Walter

Okay, lets reason together.

The Angel Gabriel announced to Zecharias that his son's name would be called John in Luke 1:13. He goes on to say in verse 15 that he will be great in the sight of the Lord and “shall drink no wine or strong drink and will be filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb.” Verse 17 says of John, “he will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah,” which is a ministry of reconciliation, would have the “hearts of the fathers turned to the children and children turning to their fathers.”

Verse 17 is pretty clear to me.

Okay now, Waltern said that Elijah was taken somewhere other than heaven because no man hath ascended into heaven accept He that came down from heaven. I can accept that. Paul hints that there are 3 heavens, so we can suppose that Elijah was taken to the first or second, only God knows.

But, they were taken someplace where they were in glory.

Luke 9:30-31 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias who appeared in glory.

To DeepThinker:

Yes, John the Baptist went forward in the Spirit & Power of Elijah, but he was NOT Elijah. Elijah actually had many powers that John the Baptist did not have!

When Elijah returns, in the Book of Revelation, he returns as a full grown man, the same as Enoch does, the same men that were taken by God will be returned by God, to do a mighty work during the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation..

John the Baptist was not Elijah. Do we agree on that, Deepthinker ?

Sincerely,

Walter

Deepthinker posted:

[b]Okay, lets reason together.

The Angel Gabriel announced to Zecharias that his son's name would be called John in Luke 1:13. He goes on to say in verse 15 that he will be great in the sight of the Lord and “shall drink no wine or strong drink and will be filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb.” Verse 17 says of John, “he will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah,” which is a ministry of reconciliation, would have the “hearts of the fathers turned to the children and children turning to their fathers.”

Verse 17 is pretty clear to me.

DeepThinker posted:

[b]Okay now, Waltern said that Elijah was taken somewhere other than heaven because no man hath ascended into heaven accept He that came down from heaven. I can accept that. Paul hints that there are 3 heavens, so we can suppose that Elijah was taken to the first or second, only God knows.

But, they were taken someplace where they were in glory.

Luke 9:30-31 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias who appeared in glory.

Walter responds:

[color=990000][b]The Bible tells us that when the Lord was transfigured, that there appeared with Him in the mount, Moses and Elijah.Most scholars feel that they were there because it is a representation of the Kingdom (the Millennium, the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ upon the earth)[u]giving them a preview of His coming Kingdom. And in the coming Kingdom there will not only be Peter, James and John, who I believe, are representatives, as it were, of the New Covenant, the Church-- Because they were redeemed, certainly they were true Israelites, but after the cross and resurrection, they became part of the church of Jesus Christ.[/u] So they represent the church.[u] Moses and Elijah represent the Old Testament saints. And it gives to us the picture that in the Kingdom, there will be the combination of the church—the redeemed church—and the redeemed out of the Old Covenant. And of course, in many ways, the two leading individuals in the Old Covenant, were Moses and Elijah, one representing the Law and the other what? The prophets. So I think that’s probably the best way to look at that. But they are representative of the Old Testament saints who will appear in glory in the coming kingdom which Christ was portraying there, or previewing, and that they represent the Law and the Prophets.[/color][/u][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

So the two witnesses are not just two individuals; they are a church, a corporate people moving in the spirit and power of Elijah

Thanks for bringing a bit of sense to this!

The amount of futurism and individuality which has enterered the interpretation of prophecy in recent generations, surprises me every time. The concept of 'a corporate people' (a priesthood) was, historically, the Christian understanding of 'antiChrist'.

On the matter of the 'two witnesses', I feel, also, that it must refer to 'Christian' bodies, because Jesus said [i][b]'Ye[/i][/b] shall be my witnesses' - Acts 1:8.

No doubt Enoch and Elijah 'saw' Christ from afar, but I can see no reason to bring them back to testify to the up-coming generation. As Jesus said: 'If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Luke 16, last verse.)

God provided meticulously for Christ's coming, that there should be a context for Him, which had been written into scripture. Not only does this world have no scripture (as the Jews did), but what could be the context of Enoch's 'coming again', or Elijah's, which would lead to millions becoming Christians?

There is only so much one individual can do. That's why God called the church 'the body of Christ', and gave gifts of men, and enabling, to its members, to obey His callings.

At least the world knows about us, and while they may not believe, at least they have context for our unchanging message.

Obviously the two witnesses play a prime role in the last day scenario, and I personally think they
ARE individuals. The reason is, that the Word is too graphic about their power, and especially their deaths...when their bodies are resurrected in front of all. "COME UP HERE!"; says the Lord....as many watched.

I really like what Zac Poonen has points out about prophesy, and particularly the book of Revelation. The prophecy was given to show us what will surely come to pass, and to OBEY, not to just merely speculate upon the possibilities. This is to secure our faith, and when it happens, we will understand.

I personally think they ARE individuals.

On the face of modern English usage, and the advance of Futurism as a doctrinal basis for interpreting scripture (which is only about 200 years old), it is, imho, too easy to think of these as two individuals. However, if scripture never refered to a group of people by a singular, there would be more to support it to interpet the olive trees in Revelation. But 'Israel, my son' refers to the whole body of people, and so there is a poignant precedent for considering the possibility that the two olive trees are churches, or believing families. Then, the wonderment at their resurrection when it happens, and their ascension, would indeed be great.

not to just merely speculate upon the possibilities

To Alive-to-God

Has it ever occured to you to use Scripture to support your endless words? Without Scripute to support your "views" they mean absolutely nothing.

Sincerely,

Walter

Alive to God posted:

It would be interesting to know if there is a Greek plural for the plural 'two' (bodies), which would distinguish this for us from bodies itself being a reference to (in this case 2) groups of people, so that 'bodies' (the dead ones) could then be clarified as multiple rather than only two individuals.

On the face of modern English usage, and the advance of Futurism as a doctrinal basis for interpreting scripture (which is only about 200 years old), it is, imho, too easy to think of these as two individuals. However, if scripture never refered to a group of people by a singular, there would be more to support it to interpet the olive trees in Revelation. But 'Israel, my son' refers to the whole body of people, and so there is a poignant precedent for considering the possibility that the two olive trees are churches, or believing families. Then, the wonderment at their resurrection when it happens, and their ascension, would indeed be great.

"But 'Israel, my son' refers to the whole body of people, and so there is a poignant precedent for considering the possibility that the two olive trees are churches, or believing families. Then, the wonderment at their resurrection when it happens, and their ascension, would indeed be great."..alive to God

Indeed it would be great, but really, it would take quite a stretch of eschatological faith to assume that there would be two raptures...[parousias]; Churches ascending before the return of the LORD?

The two witnesses are resurrected before the Lord returns.

To Alive-to-God

What does the Bible mean when it speaks of Elijah coming again? Was this a literal prophecy, or did John the Baptist fulfill the prophecy in the spirit? Or is it that the prophecy has a double-fulfillment: one of John the Baptist, and one of Elijah. This short paper will examine the issues at hand.

The two prophecies to which all New Testament references are based off of are found in Malachi 3:1 and 4:5-6 which read:

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts (3:1).1

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse (4:5-6).

[b]It is obvious that the Jews of first century Palestine were expecting Elijah to be raised from the dead and return to the nation of Israel to prepare the hearts of the people to receive their Messiah.2 Some of the Pharisees asked John the Baptist if he was Elijah that was to come (John 1:21-25). John denied that he was Elijah, rather testifying that he was "the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord" (John 1:21, 23), as prophesied by Isaiah (Isaiah 40:3). Others believed that Jesus was Elijah (Mark 6:15; Luke 9:19). Even Jesus' disciples testified that many in Israel believed He was Elijah come again (Matthew 16:14; Mark 8:28; Luke 9:19).

If neither John the Baptist, nor Jesus was Elijah come again, then who was Elijah? Jesus told the multitudes concerning John the Baptist that he was the messenger of Malachi 3:1 and the Elijah of Malachi 4:5 (Matthew 11:7-14, focusing on vs. 10, 14). On another occasion, after Jesus was transfigured and appeared with Moses and Elijah on the mountain, Peter, James, and John asked Jesus why the scribes said that Elijah must come back before all things could be restored (Matthew 17:1-13; Mark 9:2-13). Jesus explained to them, "Elijah truly shall first come and restore all things, but I say unto you, That Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed" (Matthew 17:11-12). Jesus thought of John as the Elijah of Malachi 4:5 (Matthew 17:13). How could this be?[/b]

[color=990000][b]This can be understood when we look at what the angel of the Lord spoke to Zechariah concerning John before he was ever born. The angel said concerning John's ministry, "And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord" (Luke 1:16-17, emphasis mine). John was not the person of Elijah that was promised to come again, but John was ordained by God to prepare the way for Jesus at His first coming in the spirit and power that Elijah possessed. This does not deny that Elijah Himself will actually come again in his physical presence before Jesus returns to the earth to set up His millennial kingdom. It can be said, then, that John the Baptist partially fulfilled the prophecies of Malachi.

It may seem strange or even incorrect to say that a prophecy could be only partially fulfilled; however, we find that the Scriptures declare many prophecies to have dual references or partial fulfillment. In hermeneutics, this is called the double reference principle. Many of the prophecies concerning Jesus were double reference prophecies, meaning that they had an immediate fulfillment, and a future fulfillment. Here are a few examples.

Stephen claimed that the prophet which Moses spoke of in Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-19 was Jesus Christ. When you read the context of Deuteronomy 18, however, you will see that Moses was speaking of Joshua who was to be the next leader of Israel.

Matthew claimed the statement in Hosea 11:1 which says, "Out of Egypt have I called my son," was fulfilled when Jesus lived in Egypt until the death of Herod (Matthew 2:14-15). When you look at this verse in the context of Hosea, however, you will see that God was speaking of the Israelite's exodus from Egypt.

Matthew also attributed the prophecy of Jeremiah that says, "thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel [Rachel] weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not," (Jeremiah 31:15) to the slaughter of the male children in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:16-18). From the context of Jeremiah 31, however, we know that this prophecy was given by Jeremiah to the Jewish captives in Babylon promising them that their children would once again inhabit the land of Canaan (Jeremiah 31:16-17).

God foresaw John when He inspired Malachi, recognizing that He would fulfill the prophecies in spirit at Jesus' first coming; but He was focusing upon Elijah Himself, knowing that he would fulfill the prophecies at Jesus' second coming.

Elijah will come back again in his physical body to prepare the way for Jesus' return. The context of the two prophecies in Malachi indicate that Elijah was going to come back to turn the hearts of Israel to the Lord before the Messiah came to set up His earthly kingdom, so that the Lord's fury would not rest upon them when He came Himself (Malachi 3:1-3; 4:1-6).

This will be fulfilled when Elijah comes back as one of the two witnesses during the tribulation period right before Jesus returns during the battle of Armageddon (Revelation 11:2-12). We know that their ministry is to bring judgment upon the wicked, and give some sort of a testimony to the people (11:5-6).

Although the passage in Revelation does not specifically declare Elijah to be one of the two witnesses, many Bible scholars believe he is because the prophecies in Malachi need to be completely fulfilled, and the only place we find in the Bible where it could be describing Elijah coming again is this passage.

Another reason for this persuasion is the type of power the witnesses are described as possessing. The Apostle John said that if any man would hurt them "fire proceeds out of their mouth, and devours their enemies" (Revelation 11:5). In Elijah's ministry, he was shown to have the power to call fire down from heaven and devour the enemies of the Lord (2 Kings 1:9-14). Another description said they "have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy" (Revelation 1:6). Of course it was Elijah that prayed it would not rain for three and a half years. As a result the heavens were shut up and it did not rain (James 5:17-18).

Yet another reason for this theory is that when Elijah comes back, it is believed that he must die so that he can be judged by God (Hebrews 9:27). It is argued that since Elijah never died, he will have to return to the natural realm and suffer death to fulfill Hebrews 9:27 which says, "It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." Since Elijah's physical body was taken up into heaven, having never seen death (2 Kings 2:9-12), he must come back to earth and die. Since the two witnesses are shown to have been killed and then resurrected (Revelation 11:7-12), it seems like this would be the perfect place for the fulfillment of Scripture: Elijah would have come again, and he would finally see death so that he might be judged.3

We see, then, that Elijah, and not John the Baptist is the one to come again. Elijah's coming has not yet occurred, but is yet to take place during the tribulation period.[/color][/b]

Sincererly,

Walter

Walter asked me

Has it ever occured to you to use Scripture to support your endless words?

You see, when Jesus Christ came (was born), He fulfilled every jot and tittle of prophecy about Himself. Nothing fell to the ground. Nothing ever does with God.

So, when I read prophecy, I'm looking at it from all angles, and I am certain that there is a limit to the number of times a prophecy can be fulfilled. In fact, I'd never heard of multiple fulfilments of the same word, until I came to SI. And I don't find it difficult to hold on to my scepticism, because I don't find multiple fulfilments (to the last jot and tittle) in history. They are all (multiple fulfilments), every one of them, futuristically supposed.

Without Scripute to support your "views" they mean absolutely nothing.

In particular, I asked you indirectly, to justify your suggestion (which I know is not your own orgininal suggestion, but has been dreamed up by some other writer, and then widely accepted by today's church), that Enoch might be an 'olive tree' (In scripture, the olive tree is always a reference to Israel or something to do with her as the remnant of believers in God (and therefore, in Christ), the function of her priests, or, the High Priest (now Jesus), or, the Holy Spirit.)

Please do tell me how Enoch got in there?

Obviously the two witnesses play a prime role in the last day scenario, and I personally think they ARE individuals. The reason is, that the Word is too graphic about their power, and especially their deaths...when their bodies are resurrected in front of all. "COME UP HERE!"; says the Lord....as many watched.

Revelation 12:4 and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

I wonder if the dragon was a Midwife?

Anyway...

The book of Revelation is a book of symbols, not actualities. And the interpretations are right in the Old Testament. A lot of digging and spirit leading will guide us into all truth. They do mean something but not the way the writer has written them, unless the interpretation is given along the way.

John was instructed to write down what was PAST, PRESENT and Future (from his writing, not our future, remember that audience was just as much a church as we are today, we tend to forget that).

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Good post Adisciple about the two witness and olive trees.

Good post AlivetoGod about Elijah and Enoch.

Waltern, I used to believe that way but man there is a lot of stretching to come to that conclusion. Sorry man.

Hi Walter,

I hadn't realised when I posted, that you'd posted again to me, so I'm reading it now, and will reply. Your patience is appreciated.

:-)

Golden meaning that it had gone through the fire and purified.

Waltern said:

Stephen claimed that the prophet which Moses spoke of in Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-19 was Jesus Christ. When you read the context of Deuteronomy 18, however, you will see that Moses was speaking of Joshua who was to be the next leader of Israel.

Moses wasn't speaking of Joshua, brother, he was speaking about Jesus Christ as it's VERY CLEAR in that fulfillment of what Peter said:

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; Him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever He shall say unto you.

(Context Acts 3:20-22)

To Deepthinker:

[b]Sometimes I think that perhaps others are just trying to push an agenda, and then at other times I see those same people as totally blind to what is presented in the Word of God. Can Spiritual/Scriptural blindness exist within the born again Christian believer? Is it just a waste of time to even respond to this type of blindness, if that is what it is?[/b]

Lets look in the Scriptures again, and see exactly what they say. Are they referring to Jesus, or Joshua?

As the Hebrews are preparing to move into Canaan to possess it according to God's promise to Abraham, Moses issues a series of warnings, one of which contains a prophecy concerning the Messiah in Deuteronomy 18:15-22.

Deuteronomy 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

[color=990000][b]On first read, these references to a prophet seem a little vague; one might even think that Moses is referring to Joshua who is to follow him. However, Jesus points out in Luke 24:27 that Moses prophesied concerning the Messiah when he says, "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." Earlier in his ministry Jesus had said in John 5:46, "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." This is another reference to Deuteronomy 18:15-22.

Here's the question: Did the Jews of Jesus' day regard Deuteronomy 18:15-22 to be a Messianic reference? To answer this question, let's look at John 1:45, "Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." From this reference, it is logical to deduct that Jews were looking for a fulfillment of Moses' prophecy and had equated the prophet of Deuteronomy 18 to be the same as the Messiah.

Peter himself refers to this passage in Acts 3:22-23, "For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." Take notice regarding Peter's understanding of Moses' words in Deuteronomy 18:19 when he says, "...whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him." In Peter's message, he understands that phrase to mean, "shall be destroyed from among the people." Without question, Peter regarded Moses words to be Messianic prophecy.

Stephen further confirms this understanding when he mentions it in passing to his all-Jewish audience in Acts 7:37, "This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear."[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

[b]Waltern said: Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen claimed that the prophet which Moses spoke of in Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-19 was Jesus Christ. When you read the context of Deuteronomy 18, however, you will see that Moses was speaking of Joshua who was to be the next leader of Israel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moses wasn't speaking of Joshua, brother, he was speaking about Jesus Christ as it's VERY CLEAR in that fulfillment of what Peter said:

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; Him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever He shall say unto you.

(Context Acts 3:20-22)

Sometimes I think that perhaps others are just trying to push an agenda

Question, if Joshua is that Prophet, what did he prophecy about?

To deepthinker:

Still having trouble with that one, are we?

Well, lets try it again--lets see what the Prophesies are of the coming Messiah in the Old Testament, and compare them to their fulfillment in the New Testament. [color=990000][b]I will highlight the text we have been referring to in red, just for you:[/color][/b]

Below are some of the many Old Testament prophecies that pointed to the coming Savior and the New Testament verses where Jesus fulfilled every one of the prophecies.

To be born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2
Fulfilled\t\t\t\tMatt. 2:1-6, Luke 2:1-20

To be from the line of David Isaiah 9:6-7
Fulfilled\t\t\t Matthew 1:6-16

To be born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14
Fufilled\t\t\t\tMatt. 1:18-25, Luke 1:26-38

[color=990000][b]
To be a prophet like Moses Deut. 18:15-19
Fulfilled\t\t\t John 1:45; John 7:40[/color][/b]

When he would come Daniel 9:24-27
Fulfilled\t\t\t\t Matthew 1,2 ; Luke 1,2

Would come out of Egypt Hosea 11:1
Fulfilled\t\t\t\t Matthew 2:14-15

Would live in Capernium Isaiah 9:1-2
(land of Zebulun & Napthali)
Fulfilled\t\t\t\t Matthew 4:15-16

Enters Jerusalem in triumph Zechariah 9:9
Fulfilled\t\t\t\t Matt. 21:1-9, John 12:12-16

To be rejected by his own people Isaiah 53:1-3, Ps. 118:22
Fulfilled\t\t\t\t Matt. 26:3-4, John 12:37-43

To be betrayed by a follower Psalm 41:9
Fulfilled\t\t\t\t Matt. 26:14-16, 47-50 ;

To be tried and condemned Isaiah 53:8
Fulfilled\t\t\t\t Matt. 27:1-2, Luke 23:1-25

To be silent before his accusers Isaiah 53:7
Fulfilled\t\t\t\t Matt. 27:12-14,Mark 15:3-4

To be struck and spat on Isaiah 50:6
Fulfilled\t\t\t\t Matt.26:6,27:30;Mark 14:65

To be mocked and insulted Psalm 22:7-8
Fulfilled\t\t\t\t Matt. 27:39-44, Luke23:11

To suffer with criminals Isaiah 53:12
Fulfilled\t\t\t\t Matt. 27:38, Mark 15:27-28

To be given vinegar and gall Psalm 69:21
Fulfilled\t\t\t`\t Matt. 27:34, John 19:28-30

To die by crucifixion Psalm 22:14-17
Fuffilled\t\t\t\t Matt. 27:31, Mark 15:20,25

Others cast lots for his clothes Psalm 22:18
Fulfilled\t\t\t\t Matt. 27:35, John 19:23-24

His bones were not to be broken Exodus 12:46
Fulfilled\t\t\t\t John 19:31-36

To die as a sacrifice for sin Isaiah 53:5-12
Fuflilled\t\t\t\t John 1:29,11:49-52,

To be raised from the dead Psalm 16:10
Fulfilled\t\t\t\t Matt. 28:1-10, Acts 2:22-32

To be at God's right hand Psalm 110:1
Fulfilled\t\t\t\t Mark 16:19, Luke 24:50-51\t\t\t

[b]Please notice, again, just for you deepthinker, what Acts, chapter 7 has to say. What it says is that Jesus is the one that brought them into the promised land, not Joshua. Joshua is a type of Jesus!! (that is a real difficult one, isn't it?:

44. Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
45. Which also our fathers that came after brought in with[color=990000][b] Jesus[/color][/b] into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;
46. Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
47. But Solomon built him an house.[/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

[b]
by DeepThinker on 2009/12/28 18:03:43

Question, if Joshua is that Prophet, what did he prophecy about?

Lets look in the Scriptures again, and see exactly what they say. Are they referring to Jesus, or Joshua?

In Peter's message, he understands that phrase to mean, "shall be destroyed from among the people." Without question, Peter regarded Moses words to be Messianic prophecy.

Please re-read my post, and look for the following:

[b]Please notice, again, just for you deepthinker, what Acts, chapter 7 has to say. What it says is that Jesus is the one that brought them into the promised land, not Joshua. Joshua is a type of Jesus!! (that is a real difficult one, isn't it?:

44. Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
45. Which also our fathers that came after brought in with[b] Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;
46. Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
47. But Solomon built him an house.[/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

Well, lets try it again--lets see what the Prophesies are of the coming Messiah in the Old Testament, and compare them to their fulfillment in the New Testament. I will highlight the text we have been referring to in red, just for you:

Joshua is a type of Jesus!!

This is Sunday school fodder.

Okay, Walter,

Here's my response to your last post to me. I shall quote the sentences with which particularly I disagree, and follow them with scripture as to why. I hope not to give much explanation, and let scripture speak for itself.

In particular, if Jesus said something, I accept it. If an apostle said something, I accept it. Any implication that words they gave are not wholly true, I reject.

I hope the above is not a new concept to you?

(para 1) [b]one of John the Baptist, and one of Elijah[/b]. This short paper will examine the issues at hand.

It is obvious that the Jews of first century Palestine were expecting Elijah to be raised from the dead and return to the nation of Israel to prepare the hearts of the people to receive their Messiah.

Even on the third day, when He had actually risen, they were not expecting to see Him. Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Jesus thought of John as the Elijah of Malachi 4:5 (Matthew 17:13).

the person of Elijah that was promised to come again

This does not deny that Elijah Himself will actually come again in his physical presence

before Jesus returns to [b]the earth to set up His millennial kingdom[/b].

It can be said, then, that John the Baptist partially fulfilled the prophecies of Malachi.

In hermeneutics, this is called the double reference principle.

When you read the context of Deuteronomy 18, however, you will see that Moses was speaking of Joshua who was to be the next leader of Israel.

Therefore, I'd be grateful if you could find some of Joshua's prophesies for me?

I believe DeepThinker has already mentioned Peter's reference to 'that Prophet', and I would add Acts 3:23 [b]And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people[/b]. 24 Yea, and [u]all the prophets from Samuel[/u] and those that follow after, [u]as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days[/u]. See Deut 18:19.

When you look at this verse in the context of Hosea, however, you will see that God was speaking of the Israelite's exodus from Egypt.

From the context of Jeremiah 31, however, we know that this prophecy was given by Jeremiah to the Jewish captives in Babylon promising them that their children would once again inhabit the land of Canaan

Further, Rachel had only two children, and she died immediately after the second was born. So, 'Rachel weeping for her children', could be more closely associated with Gen 30:1, (Gen 30:22) than her consciously knowing that many of her descendants were being massacred - at whatever point in history.

So, you see - while you are arguing for Elijah to return in person - you are also suggesting that a dead woman was capable of 'weeping for her children', and attirbuting that non-event to a less likely scenario than scriptures offer.

EDIT: I do not mean that it is a 'non-event' for Rachel's daughters to weep for their children, as very many have had cause to do. Rachel weeping for her children is justifiably used by Matthew in connection with the massacre under Herod, and, I would add the massacre of infants under Pharoah, which are, spiritually, greater parallels. In both cases, the Israelites had a God given right to live in peace, whereas the Israelites were in Babylon to be punished, and, when they were finally allowed to return, only a small remnant took up the offer. In that way, those Israelite descendants fully vindicated God in His punishment of them by exile. EDIT end.

It would be more correct to say Rachel was a spiritual 'type', of mothers who would both weep to have children, and weep when they were destroyed. This is the ache in the heart of God, for His disobedient children to return to fellowship with Him, which Paul so often expressed.

God foresaw John when He inspired Malachi, recognizing that He would fulfill the prophecies in spirit at Jesus' first coming; but He was focusing upon Elijah Himself, knowing that he would fulfill the prophecies at Jesus' second coming.

Elijah will come back again in his physical body to prepare the way for Jesus' return.

before [b]the Messiah came to set up His earthly kingdom[/b],

so that the Lord's fury would not rest upon them when He came Himself

Then, (over 400 years later), we come to Gal 3, Col 2:11 - 13, and the book of Hebrews. 'the Lord's fury' was poured out on Christ on the cross, when He got victory over sin and the power of death. 1 Cor 15:56, Heb 2:14, 15.

Although the passage in Revelation does not specifically declare Elijah to be one of the two witnesses, many Bible scholars believe he is because the prophecies in Malachi need to be completely fulfilled, and the only place we find in the Bible where it could be describing Elijah coming again is this passage.

Another reason for this persuasion is the type of power the witnesses are described as possessing. The Apostle John said that if any man would hurt them "fire proceeds out of their mouth, and devours their enemies" (Revelation 11:5). In Elijah's ministry, he was shown to have the power to call fire down from heaven and devour the enemies of the Lord (2 Kings 1:9-14). Another description said they "have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy" (Revelation 1:6). Of course it was Elijah that prayed it would not rain for three and a half years. As a result the heavens were shut up and it did not rain (James 5:17-18).

Since Elijah's physical body was taken up into heaven, having never seen death (2 Kings 2:9-12), he must come back to earth and die.

Elijah would have come again, and he would finally see death so that he might be judged.

Even if you don't write the answers to my questions in reply, I hope they will trouble you, as much as they trouble me. Thanks for your patience. It is appreciated.

A lot seems to have gone on between you and DeepThinker while I was writing my post. The name Joshua and Jesus mean the same. They are in different languages. Jehoshua is another form with the same interpretation.

Actually, [i]all[/i] the OT leaders - patriarchs, priests, prophets, kings - were either like Christ in some measure, or like Satan.

If the two witnesses are not individuals but the church, how on earth would say 500 million people (being conservative) get into Jerusaleam, and then be slaughtered and left on the streets.

18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard [i]it[/i] begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow." 21 And so terrifying was the sight [i]that[/i] Moses said, "I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.") 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn [i]who are[/i] registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than [i]that of[/i] Abel. 25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more [i]shall we not escape[/i] if we turn away from Him who [i]speaks[/i] from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven." 27 Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God [i]is[/i] a consuming fire.

Dear Alive-to-God, A-Disciple, Deepthinker, et al:

I can see that this thread is going nowhere. The reason is perhaps that some of the posters here, that post on the subject of Scripture and Doctrine are either Catholic believers, or prior believers in Roman Catholocism. As such, the Book of Revelation is taboo, nothing more than allegory or something mystical and non-believable.

[b]However, Jesus Christ was very serious about the importance of this Book, and His soon return to this earth, his Second Coming. He still has promises to keep to the Jewish people- the 1,000 year “Millenial” reign of Messiah, Jesus Christ, upon this earth. He has also promised the final judgment (that not only judges fallen man, but also Satan and His Demons, and His false Prophet, the Pope), as well as the creation of a New Heaven and a New Earth.[/b]

The Second Coming - What is it?

The Second Coming is when Jesus Christ will return to earth in fulfillment of His promises and to fulfill the prophecies made about Him. Jesus Himself promised, "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). Revelation 19:11-12 proclaims this about the Second Coming, "I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself."

Those who witnessed Christ's ascension into heaven after his death and resurrection heard the angels declare in Acts 1:11, "Men of Galilee…why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." The Second Coming is the literal return of Jesus Christ to earth as King in power and glory to rule for a thousand years (Revelation 20:1-6).

He has promised many things in His last Book, the Book of Revelation. [b]He has also made it crystal clear that there are curses placed upon those who discount this book, who add to the prophecies of the Book, or take away the Prophecies of the Book., or to change it:

Those that read this Book, and keep the things written therein (remembers, and thinks about, and ponders what is written in the Book of Revelation) will receive a blessing:[/b]

Revelation 1:
1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2. Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. [b] 3. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.[/b]

Rev 19:10-[b]FOR THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY. The purpose of prophecy is to testify of Jesus and glorify Him. "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

The Old Testament often foretold of the first coming of Jesus. To our generation, prophecy tells of the second coming of Jesus. [/b]

Rev 22:6-AND HE SAID UNTO ME, THESE SAYINGS ARE FAITHFUL AND TRUE: AND THE LORD GOD OF THE HOLY PROPHETS SENT HIS ANGEL TO SHOW UNTO HIS SERVANTS THE THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY BE DONE (or happen soon, or take place). God's Word is perfect and true. What He said will certainly come to pass and can be trusted.[b] The Revelation is shown to "His servants," to those that are taught by the Spirit. The importance of these things being taught is so great, God sent His angel to show them. God’s wants His people to know and understand what must take place soon as related in the Scriptures and specifically in the Revelation.[/b]

Rev 22:7-BEHOLD, I COME QUICKLY: [b]BLESSED IS HE THAT KEEPETH THE SAYINGS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK. A person can be hindered from keeping the sayings of the Revelation if his church will not teach it.[/b]

Rev 22:10-AND HE SAITH UNTO ME,[b] SEAL NOT THE SAYINGS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK: FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND. The Revelation is not a sealed book. It was given to John to be understood; however, the understanding is reserved for "His servants." Correct understanding of much of the Revelation is hidden from those that are not His servants. The Revelation contains prophecy; it covers the past, present, and future. The fulfillment of these prophecies is now at hand. Therefore, the meaning of the book is not withheld from the saints.[/b]

Rev 22:16-I JESUS HAVE SENT MINE ANGEL TO TESTIFY UNTO YOU THESE THINGS IN THE CHURCHES. [b]Jesus sent His angel to testify unto John the Revelation so that it would be taught in the seven churches.[/b] We are all in one of the seven (7) Churches today.[b][u] Does your Church teach the entire book of Revelation?[/u][/b]

Rev 22:18,19-[b] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. A grave warning is given; it might be called a warning of doom. There are people in this generation that have committed this sin. There are those that have rewritten the Bible and even left out this verse. God's warning is, do not tamper with the prophecy of this book (the Revelation)![/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

I can see that this thread is going nowhere.

What your discouraged about is that no one is saying, "oh I see that now, Oh thank you Walter for that wonderful illumination of the scriptures".

The reason why I am not is because it's the old way of how I used to think and I simply cannot return to that way of thinking.

Hi Walter,

I knew you'd be frustrated by my reply, but you wanted scripture. I hope you will eat the scrolls I've posted.

And maybe even answer some of the obvious questions, like whether you believe in the Holy Spirit or not, to give understanding, gifts and the power of God to believers?

When trying to persuade us to believe Elijah must come back in person, how do you deal with the fact that John had to be strengthened by a touch and a word from the Lord, because His appearance was overwhelming the man?

Rev 1
12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands [One] like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair [were] white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet [were] like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance [was] like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead.

This doesn't sound like a description of the Man who had such a common appearance that the religious leaders couldn't recognise Him without help. Either they weren't in the Temple often enough, or, he really was ordinary looking. But we mustn't forget He was the second Adam, and Adam had once upon a time, been 'light' as a son of God (until the Fall), and now, Christ is 'Light' and we are children of light. (Rom 8:19)

To Deeptinker, Alive-to-God, ADisciple, et al:

As I have been praying and thinking about our two positions, I go back to the example of Cain & Abel.

Adam and Eve received the example of the sacrifice that was required by God to cover their sin- a blood sacrifice from a first born, unblemished lamb.

Adam and Eve shared the requirements with their two boys, Cain & Abel.

Abel believed God, and provided the sacrifice that was demanded by his Creator. He was rewarded because God sent down fire from heaven to burn the sacrifice.

Cain did not believe God, but instead, did it "his way" (remember the song by Sinatra) and placed the work from his own hands on the altar. What was God's response to Cain? REJECTION. The blood line of the Messiah goes through Seth. Cain's bloodline does not, and goes nowhere.

God will spit those out of His mouth who reject Him and His authority.

God's Word is indeed His Word. There are always those who want to change it. Those that want to "spiritualize" it. Those that truly have been deceived into believing that the Holy Spirit that lives within them gives them the authority to "spiritualize" or allegorize His Word. The Holy Spirit "quickens" (makes alive) the Word of God for the believer. Satan still has access to the minds of the believer, just like he had access to the mind of Christ in the wilderness. Those that will not accept His Word the way it is written are listening to satan, not the Holy Spirit, and are on their way to Hell.

Sincerely,

Walter

Those that will not accept His Word the way it is written are listening to Satan, not the Holy Spirit, and are on their way to Hell.

Alright, lets obey the LORD's word as they are literally written.

Matthew 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Now, don't reply to this trying to give an interpretation. Don't say, "The LORD means this or means that". If you do, then you'll be allegorizing and spiritualizing. You said, and I quote:

"Those that will not accept His Word THE WAY IT IS WRITTEN are listening to Satan".

To Deepthinker:

Wow, it is apparent that you and Barack Obama have the same ideas about Scripture. Do you attend the Church formerly pastored by Reverend Wright?

[b]On June 24th 2008 your Spiritual double, Barack Obama, said the following:

"Which passages of scripture should guide our public policy?" Obama asked in the speech. "Should we go with Leviticus, which suggests slavery is OK and that eating shellfish is an abomination? Or we could go with Deuteronomy, which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith? Or should we just stick to the Sermon on the Mount?

"So before we get carried away, let's read our Bible now," Obama said, to cheers. "Folks haven't been reading their Bible." [/b]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Brother (if you are my brother), you need to be on your face, in repentance, asking God to forgive you.

Sincerely,

Walter

[b]
Those that will not accept His Word the way it is written are listening to Satan, not the Holy Spirit, and are on their way to Hell.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is quite a bold statement Brother.

Alright, lets obey the LORD's word as they are literally written.

Matthew 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Now, don't reply to this trying to give an interpretation. Don't say, "The LORD means this or means that". If you do, then you'll be allegorizing and spiritualizing. You said, and I quote:

"Those that will not accept His Word THE WAY IT IS WRITTEN are listening to Satan".

I am going to take a cue from the site owner. This is what's at the bottom each time we hit submit when we post.

The site moderators ask you before you post that you consider praying and ask the Lord if you have the right spirit to serve others in the body of Christ before posting and pressing the submit button. Please also look at these scriptures: Matthew 12:36, James 1:26, Colossians 4:6.

Thank you

Hello Walter,

Thank you for your further post.

Do you remember, yesterday, asking me to include some scriptures in my replies? I hope you found them helpful in understanding why I'm ready to dispute with your theory about Elijah. Perhaps when you've had time to consider them all, you'll be able to reply to the points I raise?

Now, you said

Adam and Eve received the example of the sacrifice that was required by God to cover their sin- a blood sacrifice from a first born, unblemished lamb.

Adam and Eve shared the requirements with their two boys, Cain & Abel.

Yes, Abel offered to the Lord in thanksgiving, and possibly, we could call it a peace offering, but most certainly it was not an offering for 'sin'.

However, the attitude of Abel's heart, to give early acknowledgement to God for the increase of his flock, was what made him choose one of the 'firstlings'. There is nothing about 'without blemish' in Genesis.

While Cain, knowing God had cursed the ground to spare Adam from immediate death, brought God an offering from the fruit of the ground - symbolic of man's punishment. Basically, it was a prideful, rude thing to do - like a slap in the face to God - and God was not pleased - understandably.

placed the work from his own hands on the altar

God's Word is indeed His Word. There are always those who want to change it.

Those that will not accept His Word the way it is written are listening to satan, not the Holy Spirit

John 4:24
God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him [b]must[/b] worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

John 3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye [b]must[/b] be born again.

Jesus doesn't say 'must', very often.

It has been helpful for me to consider the issues you've brought to attention through your article and this discussion. I'm sure you understand the need for a peaceful consistency across the whole of scripture, wherein new understanding finds a naturally spiritual place.

Today, I thought of something new with regard to Elijah's catching up, which you may wish to ponder; namely, that if he's still alive, how could Elisha receive a double portion of 'his spirit'?

I said

The concept of 'a corporate people' (a priesthood) was, historically, the Christian understanding of 'antiChrist'.

Yes, I have a book called The Ruin of Antichrist by John Bunyan that confirms what you have said here. That's how he saw antichrist.

As to your question about the Greek plural form for "their dead bodies," it's interesting to note that many manuscripts have the word "bodies" in verse 8 and verse 9 in the singular.

"And their dead body shall lie on the street of the city..." (Rev. 11.8).

"And they... shall see their dead body three days and a half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves" (Rev. 11.9).

Two witnesses with one body? What kind of body is that?

I wanted to acknowledge your reply, which I found helpful for further study and meditation.

To Alive-to-God

How do I begin to respond to your post? You have no understanding of who or what God is, and of what His plan has been before creating creation. In God’s foreknowledge, He knew that Adam & Eve would sin before he ever created them. God has always known the end from the beginning.

Do you make time each day, and each night to read, study, and internalize your Bible? No, you do not.

Throughout God’s Word in the Old Testament, as well as the New Testament, we find the shedding of innocent blood. Hebrews tells us that “without the shedding of blood is no remission (forgiveness) for sin.” (Hebrews 9:22).

[color=990000][b]In the Old Testament man was commanded to shed the blood of an animal, a sinless substitute, [u]including the fat, upon the altar. [/u] This is first explained for us in Genesis chapter 3, just after God admonishes Satan and prophesizes of the coming Redeemer, the Seed of the Woman (Women do not have “seed”, men have “seed”):[/color][/b]

Genesis 3:14-15
14. And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it (Messiah, Jesus Christ, the “Seed of the Woman”) shall bruise thy (Satan’s) head, and thou (Satan) shalt bruise his (Messiah’s) heel.

Next, God slays an animal, and sacrifices it before Adam and Eve, and then makes clothes for them.

“21. Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.” Their sins were covered up and forgotten, but "not without blood" (Hebrews 9:7) “7. But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:”

In Chapter 4 we have the continuation and a greater understanding of the Scarlet thread that runs through the Bible.

Cain & Abel

2.\tAnd she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.[color=990000][b] 4. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock [u]AND THE FAT THEREOF.[/u][/color][/b] And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5. But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

[color=990000][b]Here, at this point, if we know our Bibles, we turn to Leviticus 4:5-13 Lev 6:24-30 and find God’s requirement for the sin offering:[/color][/b]

[b]The type of animal required:[/b] Bull, Lamb, Goat, Dove or Pigeon
[b]Offerers Work (Family Priest, the Father of the house):[/b] Lay on Hands to become one with the animal, and kill the animal
[b]Priests Work:[/b] Puts Blood on the Altar
[color=990000][b]God’s Portion of the Sacrifice: [u]FAT of the inner parts, kidneys, & liver.[/u][/color][/b]
[b]Priests portion of the sacrifice:[/b] If blood taken into the tabernalcle, flesh burned outside the camp, otherwise flesh was the Priests.
[b]Offerers Portion:[/b] NONE

[color=990000][b]If we know our Bibles, we should also remember that Noah took the animals into the ark two by two. However, the clean animals, used for sacrifice, were taken aboard seven by seven.

When the earth finally dried after the flood and Noah disembarked from the ark, he brought all of the animals off the Ark and BUILT AN ALTAR UNTO THE LORD AND SACRIFICED ONE OF EVERY “CLEAN” ANIMAL TO THE LORD:[/color][/b]

20. And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
22. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

God, in his foreknowledge provided a way to cover the sin of man with the shedding of innocent blood, on the altar, in the Old Testament, to only cover the sins of the people who believed in Him. In the New Testament his Son would take care of the sin problem forever, for all those that believe.

In the New Testament, God sent His Son, God the Word, to become sin for all of mankind, from the beginning of time to the end of time. All of those that were covered by the blood in the Old Testament were waiting in Abraham’s bosom, for the Messiah to take care of the sin problem forever. He did that when He resurrected from the dead and took control of the keys of death and hell, and took “captivity captive” (those in Abraham’s bosom) back to heaven. All of those before the cross, that believed God, and in shedding the blood of a sinless substitue, for their sin are now in heaven, waiting for their glorified bodies at the Resurrection. That will be Adam, Eve, Abel, Seth, Noah, Shem, and all of believers who believed God in His prophecy in Genesis 3:15 (the seed of the woman, Messiah).

Also in heaven right now are those after the cross, who believed in Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Seed of the Woman, that came and paid the price for their sin in full.

Sincerely,

Walter

You have to put these together somehow.

I am merely interjecting a thought.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Dear[b] Lysa:[/b]

[color=990000][b]Do you have any idea what Jesus said about what his Word would do to those who hear it? Do you read and study your Bible??

Jesus Word (found in the Bible) [u]is the Great Divider. I always proof text my views with Scripture from the Bible. That is the requirement of the Christian believer.[/u]

If what I post offends you, then look to yourself, and please, don't blame me. The offense can be found from the Word, found in the Bible, that I post in support of my various positions, against your positions, that have no Biblical support. [/color][/b]

Jesus the Divider

“ Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you,[color=990000][b] Nay; but rather division:.” [/color][/b] Luke 12:51

This is one of the “hard sayings” of Jesus for those that do not read their Bibles. It must have shocked some of his hearers, and it is shocking to us when we discover it in Scripture. But it is in the Bible and we have to deal with it. Indeed, I think it states a profound and necessary truth.

[color=990000]Jesus never sought to be “politically correct.” He did not say what people wanted to hear, but what was true. He did not adapt to people; he expected people to adapt to God’s truth as he spoke it. He said that his words, which were given to him by his Father (John 12:49), spoke a universal truth that would outlast the physical universe. “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words shall not pass away” (Matthew 24:35).[b] He said that his words would be the test by which men would ultimately be judged (John 12:48). I think we need to take all of his words very seriously.[/b][/color]

[b]Lysa,[/b]lets take a closer look at Jesus’s statement and its implications.

1. The Text of Jesus’ Statement.

The full text of Jesus’ statement is,

“I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.” (Luke 12:49-53)

The Greek words translated “divide” and “division” (diamerizo and diamerismos) mean exactly that. They mean division, disunity.

In Matthew’s gospel Jesus expresses the same thought in even more colorful terms “ Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.” (Matthew 10:34). I do not think “sword”, in this text, implies bloodshed. I read it as a reference to the fact that the word of God is “ sharper than any double-edged sword”; it “penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart” (Hebrews 4:12).[b][u] God’s truth is a sword which divides truth from falsity, right from wrong, good from evil, and much else. It confronts us and requires us to make decisions. The way we make those decisions can divide us. [/u][/b]

[color=990000][b]2. How Does Jesus Divide People?
Scripture shows us very clearly how Jesus divides people. Jesus confronts us with the truth. He is “the truth” (John 14:6). [u] We have to respond. The way we respond divides us. We can either accept the truth or reject it. If we try to ignore it, that is a form of rejection.[/color][/b][/u]

When Jesus ministered on earth he had some who followed him, and some who sought to kill him and eventually had him crucified. Today, also, he has some who follow him and some who seek to destroy his influence.

John’s gospel tells us that there were some who received Jesus and some who did not receive him (John 1: 11-12). It tells us that “whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life”, while “whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son” (John 3:16, 18). It tells us that “whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him” (John 3:36).

By his coming to earth, Jesus confronted us in a new way with God’s eternal truth. Men had to react to this confrontation. Their reaction divided them into two groups, those who accepted Jesus and those who rejected him It was not unusual then, and is not unusual today, to have different members of the same family be in different groups.

Scripture speaks of two kingdoms, “the dominion of darkness” and the “kingdom of the Son [God] loves” (Colossians 1:13; see Ephesians 5:8). John’s gospel says that those who receive Jesus can become the children of God (John 1:12). His epistle goes further and divides all mankind into two groups, “children of God” and “children of the devil” (1 John 3:10). Paul refers to the pagan “gods” of his day as “demons” (1 Corinthians 10:20), and says, “What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and that of idols?” (2 Corinthians 6:13-14). For Paul there could be no other foundation than Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 3:11). Paul resolved, in his teaching, to “know nothing... except Christ Jesus and him crucified” (1 Corinthians 2:2).

The Greek word “believe” (pistis) means much more than just intellectual acceptance. It means to put your trust in, to rely on, and to obey. Scripture tells us, “Do not merely listen to the word [of God], and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says” (James 1:22). Faith that does not reflect itself in actions is dead, meaningless (James 2:14-19). Paul said that his mission was to call people to “the obedience that comes from faith” (Romans 1:5). Hebrews says that Jesus is “the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him” (Hebrews 5:9).

Jesus never accepted mere lip-service. He spoke critically of those who “honor [God] with their lips, but their hearts are far from [God]” (Matthew 15:8). He said “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord’ and do not do what I say?” (Luke 6:46). He said, “Not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 7:21).

The Scriptural view is that the world is divided into two groups: those who believe in Jesus Christ and those who do not believe in him, those who are in the kingdom of God and those who are in the kingdom of darkness. There is no middle ground. There is no room for fence-sitters. Jesus said, “He who is not with me is against me” (Matthew 12:30).

A split loyalty will not do. You cannot serve more than one God. “You cannot serve God and mammon” (Matthew 6:24 KJV). Christians should not be “yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? What fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial?” (2 Corinthians 6:14-15).

There is another sense in which Jesus divides us. At the end time, when he judges all men, he will “separate the people one from another”, as one who divides sheep from goats. Those who have done his will will go to “eternal life” while those who have not will go to “eternal punishment” (Matthew 25:32, 46; see also Matthew 13:41-43, 49).

3. Significance for our Time.

\tI believe this divisiveness is crucial for our times. I shall give, very briefly, a few examples. More could doubtless be given.

\ta. “Inclusiveness.”

\tA key word in today’s society is “inclusiveness”. We are told that we should accept “alternative lifestyles”, accept all sorts of behavior that used to be considered unacceptable. Those who are considered unwilling to do so may be required to receive “sensitivity training”. The watchword is “tolerance”. Some have almost made a god of tolerance. Yet we find these same people can be quite intolerant of any viewpoint that does not tolerate every kind of behavior. Any deviation from the standard of tolerance is considered intolerable, and there are efforts in many countries, including ours, to make it illegal. In parts of Canada, for example, it is now illegal and punishable by law for anyone simply to repeat what the Bible says about certain forms of behavior.

[b]Jesus was never tolerant of evil. He reached out to the sinner in love, but he hated sin. When a woman was found in adultery, Jesus did not say, “Your lifestyle is fine”. He said, “Go now and leave your life of sin” (John 8:11). In his Sermon on the Mount and in other teachings he insisted on a very high moral standard. He denounced the religious leaders of his time, saying “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, hypocrites” (Matthew chapter 23).

Scripture teaches that those who do certain kinds of acts, and live in certain kinds of ways (including impurity and sexual immorality), will not inherit the kingdom of God and will incur God’s wrath (Ephesians 5:5-7; Colossians 3:5-6; Galatians 5:19; see Romans 1:18-32; Revelation 21:8). It tells us “do not be partners” with such people (Ephesians 5:7). Jesus will come again “in blazing fire” to “punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thessalonians 1:7,9)..

[color=99000][b]Where many today teach tolerance of every conceivable kind of behavior, Jesus drew a sharp line of division. He said that some behavior is sinful and should not be tolerated. He said that some things are good and some things are evil, and the evil cannot be tolerated or accepted. I believe we urgently need that line of division today.[/color][/b]

b. Moral relativity

Closely related to this teaching of tolerance is the concept of moral relativity. It is said, by many, that there are no moral absolutes.

Again, this is contrary to the Biblical standard. The Bible is very clear. There is good and there is evil, and the two must never be confused. “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter” (Isaiah 5:20). Jesus drew very sharp lines between what was good and what was evil, what was moral and what was immoral. He spoke of those who “loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil” (John 3:19). He said that at the end of the age his angels will weed out of the kingdom of God “everything that causes sin and all who do evil” and throw them into the fiery furnace, while “the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father” (Matthew 13:40-43; see Matthew 13:49).

Jesus drew a sharp line of division between good and evil, which modern teaching seeks to blur. When we blur the line between good and evil, we invite all kinds of evil. I believe we urgently need to return to Jesus’ sharp line of division.

[color=990000][b]c. Universal religion

There are those, today, who dream of having a single, universal religion that all can accept. They assert that “all religions are essentially the same” and that ending religious disagreements will promote world peace. They try to combine features of Eastern religions (such as Hinduism, Buddhism and Confucianism), of New Age thinking, and much else, with some of Jesus’ ethical teachings, into an amalgam that they hope will be acceptable to all.

Scripture is totally opposed to any such effort.

Jesus declared that the one whom he called Father is “the only true God” (John 17:3), and that no man comes to God except through Jesus (John 14:6; see also Acts 4:12). God repeatedly told his people that he is the only true God. “I am the first and I am the last. Apart from me there is no God” (Isaiah 44:6). “I am God and there is no other” (Isaiah 46:9; see also Isaiah 45:18, 21). Paul wrote, “there is only one God” (Romans 3:30). “There is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live, and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live” (1 Corinthians 8:6; see also James 4:12).[/color][/b]

New Age teaching asserts that all paths lead, ultimately, to the same mountaintop. Jesus said that there are two paths, or roads. One is broad and leads to eternal destruction. Many travel by it The other is narrow and leads to eternal life. Few find it (Matthew 7:13-14). We need to choose which road we will follow. We need to “make every effort” to follow the narrow road (Luke 13:24).

The one true God is not Allah, or Buddha, or any of the Hindu gods, or the “gods” of the New Age movement, or “the goddess” of the feminist movement, or some impersonal force or consciousness. It is the God of Scripture, and him only, whom we must acknowledge, worship and serve if we would claim the promises of the gospel of Christ. He requires our exclusive worship. He will not share it with any other so-called “gods”.

God is very explicit about all this. He warned his people, over and over, to have nothing to do with other so-called “gods”. He told them not to worship other gods and not to listen to anyone who tells them to worship other gods (Deuteronomy chapter 13). He told them not to set a pagan image alongside his altar (Deuteronomy 16:21; see 2 Kings 17;41). He told them not to worship him in a pagan way (Deuteronomy 12:4). The whole thrust of the Mosaic law is that the worship of the one true God was not to be contaminated by any pagan elements. Much of the Old Testament history is related to God’s insistence that his people should worship him and him alone. Ultimately the ten northern tribes of Israel were conquered and dispersed because “they worshiped other gods” (2 Kings 17:7-23).

Paul expressed the same concern. Speaking of the whole range of “gods” whom the non-Christians worshiped in his day - Greek and Roman gods, Egyptian and Persian gods, and the gods of various “mystery” religions - he wrote, “The sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons” (1 Corinthians 10:20-21).

God’s concern is vividly expressed in the following passage from the prophet Jeremiah,

“‘Has a nation ever changed its gods? (Yet they are not gods at all.) But my people have exchanged their Glory for worthless idols. Be appalled at this, O heavens, and shudder with great horror,’ declares the Lord. ‘My people have committed two sins. They have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water’” (Jeremiah 2:11-13).

God is declaring clearly that he is the only God and that anything else which claims to be a god is not a god at all. It is worthless, like a broken jar that cannot hold water. And he is appalled that his people have left him to follow after such false and worthless things. I believe that those, today, who assert that all gods are the same and all religions are the same are doing just what this passage describes. They are forsaking the spring of living waters and digging broken cisterns that cannot hold water.

Scripture sometimes speaks of God as a “jealous” God (Exodus 20:5). This does not mean that he is envious of, or feels threatened by, other so-called “gods”. Rather it means that he is “zealous” (another meaning of the same Hebrew word), he is intensely concerned, to protect his people from going down a path that will lead to their destruction, much as a mother would be zealous to make sure that her young child does not run out into a busy street.

d. Naturalism

In his remarkable book “How Then Shall We Live” (Tyndale House, 1999 (revised)) pp. 19-26, Chuck Colson speaks of the conflict of “theism versus naturalism. Theism is the belief that there is a transcendent God who created the universe; naturalism is the belief that natural causes alone are sufficient to explain everything that exists.” I believe that these two views cannot coexist. Either there is a God who created all things (including me) and to whom I am accountable for all my actions and decisions, or else everything is the result of natural forces and I have no accountability to anyone.

Our nation was founded on theistic principles. Its founders believed that, without personal morality based on a strong Christian religion, democracy could not survive. But we have moved strongly in the direction of naturalism. Indeed, in our zeal to avoid “establishing” any religion, we have come very close to establishing naturalism as the religion of our public school system.

Here again, Jesus calls for a clear division. He spoke of his Father as the creator (Mark 10:6, 13:19). Jesus himself existed before the world (the physical universe) began (John 17:5; John 1:1-2). He participated in the creation of the physical universe (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17; Hebrews 1:2). By his Incarnation, Resurrection and Ascension he demonstrated God’s power over all material things. His whole ministry declares our accountability to God for our acts. And a time will come when he will judge us by the decisions we have made (John 5:27-30).

Jesus confronts us with a choice between these two world-views. To accept the naturalistic world-view is to reject Jesus Christ.

[color=990000][b]4. Conclusion.

I believe we are approaching what Scripture refers to as the end times. As we approach them, I believe the lines are being more sharply drawn between good and evil, between truth and falsity, between the one true God and other false “gods”, and between theism and naturalism. We must choose. There is no middle ground. Jesus confronts us with the choice. He divides us and judges us according to how we have chosen. \t

Lysa, what I post offends you because you do not know your Bible. Clear and Simple. Whatever opinions we have as believers must be compared to the lens of Scripture. When we do that, we are able to discard the opinions we have that generate from our flesh and embrace those from God (that are found in His Word, The Holy Bible)[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

ARTICLE 7
"FROM THENCE HE WILL COME AGAIN TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD"

I. HE WILL COME AGAIN IN GLORY

Christ already reigns through the Church. . .

668 "Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living."548 Christ's Ascension into heaven signifies his participation, in his humanity, in God's power and authority. Jesus Christ is Lord: he possesses all power in heaven and on earth. He is "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion", for the Father "has put all things under his feet."549 Christ is Lord of the cosmos and of history. In him human history and indeed all creation are "set forth" and transcendently fulfilled.550

669 As Lord, Christ is also head of the Church, which is his Body.551 Taken up to heaven and glorified after he had thus fully accomplished his mission, Christ dwells on earth in his Church. The redemption is the source of the authority that Christ, by virtue of the Holy Spirit, exercises over the Church. "The kingdom of Christ [is] already present in mystery", "on earth, the seed and the beginning of the kingdom".552

670 Since the Ascension God's plan has entered into its fulfillment. We are already at "the last hour".553 "Already the final age of the world is with us, and the renewal of the world is irrevocably under way; it is even now anticipated in a certain real way, for the Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real but imperfect."554 Christ's kingdom already manifests its presence through the miraculous signs that attend its proclamation by the Church.555

. . .until all things are subjected to him

671 Though already present in his Church, Christ's reign is nevertheless yet to be fulfilled "with power and great glory" by the King's return to earth.556 This reign is still under attack by the evil powers, even though they have been defeated definitively by Christ's Passover.557 Until everything is subject to him, "until there be realized new heavens and a new earth in which justice dwells, the pilgrim Church, in her sacraments and institutions, which belong to this present age, carries the mark of this world which will pass, and she herself takes her place among the creatures which groan and travail yet and await the revelation of the sons of God."558 That is why Christians pray, above all in the Eucharist, to hasten Christ's return by saying to him:559 Marana tha! "Our Lord, come!"560

672 Before his Ascension Christ affirmed that the hour had not yet come for the glorious establishment of the messianic kingdom awaited by Israel561 which, according to the prophets, was to bring all men the definitive order of justice, love and peace.562 According to the Lord, the present time is the time of the Spirit and of witness, but also a time still marked by "distress" and the trial of evil which does not spare the Church563 and ushers in the struggles of the last days. It is a time of waiting and watching.564

The glorious advent of Christ, the hope of Israel

673 Since the Ascension Christ's coming in glory has been imminent,565 even though "it is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority."566. This eschatological coming could be accomplished at any moment, even if both it and the final trial that will precede it are "delayed".567

674 The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus.568 St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old."569 St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"570 The "full inclusion" of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of "the full number of the Gentiles",571 will enable the People of God to achieve "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ", in which "God may be all in all".572

The Church's ultimate trial

675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.573 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth574 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.575

676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,576 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.577

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.578 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.579 God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.580

II. TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD

678 Following in the steps of the prophets and John the Baptist, Jesus announced the judgment of the Last Day in his preaching.581 Then will the conduct of each one and the secrets of hearts be brought to light.582 Then will the culpable unbelief that counted the offer of God's grace as nothing be condemned.583 Our attitude to our neighbor will disclose acceptance or refusal of grace and divine love.584 On the Last Day Jesus will say: "Truly I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."585

679 Christ is Lord of eternal life. Full right to pass definitive judgment on the works and hearts of men belongs to him as redeemer of the world. He "acquired" this right by his cross. The Father has given "all judgment to the Son".586 Yet the Son did not come to judge, but to save and to give the life he has in himself.587 By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one's works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love.588

IN BRIEF

680 Christ the Lord already reigns through the Church, but all the things of this world are not yet subjected to him. The triumph of Christ's kingdom will not come about without one last assault by the powers of evil.

681 On Judgment Day at the end of the world, Christ will come in glory to achieve the definitive triumph of good over evil which, like the wheat and the tares, have grown up together in the course of history.

682 When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace.

548 Rom 14:9.
549 Eph 1:20-22.
550 Eph 1:10; cf. 4:10; 1 Cor 15:24, 27-28.
551 Cf. Eph 1:22.
552 LG 3; 5; cf. Eph 4:11-13.
553 I Jn 2:18; cf. I Pt 4:7.
554 LG 48 # 3; cf. I Cor 10:11.
555 Cf. Mk 16:17-18, 20.
556 Lk 21:27; cf. Mt 25:31.
557 Cf. 2 Th 2:7.
558 LG 48 # 3; cf. 2 Pt 3:13; Rom 8:19-22; I Cor 15:28.
559 Cf. I Cor 11:26; 2 Pt 3:11-12.
560 1 Cor 16:22; Rev 22:17,20.
561 Cf. Acts 1:6-7.
562 Cf. Is 11:1-9.
563 Cf. Acts 1:8; I Cor 7:26; Eph 5:16; I Pt 4:17.
564 Cf. Mt 25:1, 13; Mk 13:33-37; I Jn 2:18; 4:3; I Tim 4:1.
565 Cf. Rev 22:20.
566 Acts 1:7; Cf. Mk 13:32.
567 Cf. Mt 24:44; I Th 5:2; 2 Th 2:3-12.
568 Rom I 1:20-26; cf. Mt 23:39.
569 Acts 3:19-21.
570 Rom 11:15.
571 Rom 11:12, 25; cf. Lk 21:24.
572 Eph 4:13; I Cor 15:28.
573 Cf. Lk 18:8; Mt 24:12.
574 Cf. Lk 21:12; Jn 15:19-20.
575 Cf. 2 Th 2:4-12; I Th 5:2-3; 2 Jn 7; I Jn 2:1 8, 22.
576 Cf. DS 3839.
577 Pius XI, Divini Redemptoris, condemning the "false mysticism" of this "counterfeit of the redemption of the lowly"; cf. GS 20-21.
578 Cf. Rev 19:1-9.
579 Cf Rev 13:8; 20:7-10; 21:2-4.
580 Cf. Rev 20:12 2 Pt 3:12-13.
581 Cf. Dan 7:10; Joel 3-4; Mal 3: 19; Mt 3:7-12.
582 Cf Mk 12:38-40; Lk 12:1-3; Jn 3:20-21; Rom 2:16; I Cor 4:5.
583 Cf. Mt 11:20-24; 12:41-42.
584 Cf. Mt 5:22; 7:1-5.
585 Mt 25:40.
586 Jn 5:22; cf. 5:27; Mt 25:31; Acts 10:42; 17:31; 2 Tim 4:1.
587 Cf. Lk 21:12; Jn 15:19-20.
588 Cf. Jn 3:17; 5:26. 588 Cf. Jn 3:18; 12:48; Mt 12:32; I Cor 3:12-15; Heb 6:4-6; 10:26-31.

To Deepthinker:

How many phony "posters" have you created, to support your heresies, Deepthinker? How many other of your "friends" are also phoney? How about Alive-to-God, is that real? How about the other two that support your heresy? Lysa, is that real, or just you?

You have just created this new "poster" today "CCC123"

How "convenient".

[color=990000][b]It is a sad thing that you have to create "fictious posters" that supposedly support the "junk" (I.E. Error, and not taught in the Bible or the Church, since the beginning) that you try to post here as being creditable to the body of Christ. [/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

by CCC123 on 2009/12/29 20:59:33

ARTICLE 7
"FROM THENCE HE WILL COME AGAIN TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD"

I. HE WILL COME AGAIN IN GLORY

Christ already reigns through the Church. . .

668 "Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living."548 Christ's Ascension into heaven signifies his participation, in his humanity, in God's power and authority. Jesus Christ is Lord: he possesses all power in heaven and on earth. He is "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion", for the Father "has put all things under his feet."549 Christ is Lord of the cosmos and of history. In him human history and indeed all creation are "set forth" and transcendently fulfilled.550

669 As Lord, Christ is also head of the Church, which is his Body.551 Taken up to heaven and glorified after he had thus fully accomplished his mission, Christ dwells on earth in his Church. The redemption is the source of the authority that Christ, by virtue of the Holy Spirit, exercises over the Church. "The kingdom of Christ [is] already present in mystery", "on earth, the seed and the beginning of the kingdom".552

DELETED

Walter:

I'm not that guy you accuse me of being.

To CCC123???

[b]Yes, you are "real", sure, sure you are, of course.

No real name.

Created out of nothing today.

No real email address.

No information-State, occupation. Just like all of the other "friends" of Deepthinker.

And guess what, you agree 100% with the heresies posted here by Deepthinker.

How "convenient" for Deepthinker. He has finally found "someone else" who will agree with him.[/b]

Walter

To Deepthinker, and those "posters?, both new and old "supporters" who "support?????" him and the[b] Christian HERESIES that he continues to post:[/b]

The Bible, from beginning to end has a scarlet thread of red blood running through it!

[b]The Blood pictured in the Old Testament[/b]

[color=990000][b]The scarlet thread running through the Bible is a picture of the Blood of Jesus Christ, shed on the Cross to wash away sin. The Old Testament Book of Genesis, the first book of the Bible, gives us the earliest picture of the Blood. God Himself killed an animal and clothed Adam and Eve with skin. Blood had to be spilled for our first parents to have the nakedness of their sins covered, "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them" (Genesis 3:21). Their sins were covered up and forgotten, but "not without blood" (Hebrews 9:7). [/color][/b]

Our first parents had two sons, Cain and Abel.
"And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect" (Genesis 4:2-5).

Some modern commentators miss the point here. Charles C. Ryrie incorrectly says, "A bloodless offering was perfectly appropriate; it was Cain's attitude of unbelief that displeased God" ( Ryrie Study Bible, note on Genesis 4:3). But the Bible says, "Unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect" (Genesis 4:5).[color=990000][b] God did not respect Cain's offering. Why? The reason is obvious: because no blood had been shed. The Scofield Reference Bible makes this clear, "This type is brought into prominence by contrast with Cain's bloodless offering of the fruit of his own works, and proclaims, in the very infancy of the race, the primal truth that 'without shedding of blood is no remission' (Hebrews 9:22)" (note on Genesis 4:4). Dr. Ryrie was not correct when he said that Cain's offering was "perfectly appropriate." [/color][/b]

Dr. J. Vernon McGee correctly says of Cain's offering:
And the offering he brought denied that human nature is evil. God said, "Bring that little blood sacrifice which will point to the Redeemer who is coming into the world"… The difference between Cain and Abel was not a character difference at all, but the difference was in the offerings which they brought (J. Vernon McGee, Thru the Bible, Nashville: Thomas Nelson, volume I, p. 29).

Abel brought a blood offering. Cain did not bring a blood offering. "But unto Cain and to his offering he [God] had not respect" (Genesis 4:5). No blood - no respect - end of argument! Cain's offering was rejected. Abel's offering was accepted, but "not without blood" (Hebrews 9:7).
After the Great Flood, the first thing Noah did was to offer a blood sacrifice.

"Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt-offerings on the altar. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake…" (Genesis 8:20-21).

[color=990000]Just as Abel brought a blood sacrifice, so did Noah. The scarlet line of blood, pointing to the Blood of Christ, continued.

With the call of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3), God began forming the nation of Israel to serve Him. But Abraham had to understand the importance of a blood sacrifice for sin. When Abraham took his son Isaac and went up to Mount Moriah, the boy Isaac said, "Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt-offering?" (Genesis 22:7). The little boy knew they had to have a blood offering. He had learned it. God had told Abraham to offer Isaac (Genesis 22:2). But when Abraham raised his knife, God said:

"Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son" (Genesis 22:12-13).

The scarlet thread of blood sacrifice continued - pointing to the Blood sacrifice of Christ. John the Baptist pointed to Jesus and said, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). [/color]

After the time of Abraham, the Hebrew people went down into Egypt during a great famine, because there was food in Egypt. They grew into a great nation there, but the Pharaoh enslaved them. God called Moses to lead them out of Egyptian slavery, back into the promised land.

On the night before the Hebrews left Egypt, God said He would send death to the firstborn children of the Egyptians. This was a judgment from God, given because Pharaoh would not let the Hebrews go. That night, God told Moses to institute the Passover. God told Moses to have the Hebrews put the blood of a lamb on "the two side posts and on the upper door post" of their houses (Exodus 12:7). Then God said:

[b]"And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt" (Exodus 12:13). [/b]

The Scofield note on Exodus 12:11 says, "The Passover, type of Christ our Redeemer." The scarlet line continued, pointing forward to the Blood of Christ.

The Hebrew people left Egypt and went out into the wilderness. They came to Mount Sinai. Moses went up the mountain and God gave him the Ten Commandments, written "with the finger of God" on two tablets of stone (Exodus 31:18). The covenant of the Law was established with a blood sacrifice:

"And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words" (Exodus 24:8).

Andrew Murray said, "It was in that blood the covenant had its foundation and power. It is by the blood alone, that man can be brought into covenant fellowship [with God]. That which had been foreshadowed at the gate of Eden, on Mount Ararat [by Noah], on Moriah [by Abraham], and in Egypt, was now confirmed at the foot of Sinai in a most solemn manner. Without blood there could be no access by sinful man to a Holy God. There is, however, a marked difference…On Moriah the life was redeemed by the shedding of blood. In Egypt it was sprinkled on the door posts of the houses; but [here] at Sinai, it was sprinkled on the persons themselves. The contact was closer, the application more powerful" (Andrew Murray, The Power of the Blood of Jesus, New Kensington, Pennsylvania: Whitaker House, 1993, p. 12). The scarlet thread continued through the Bible. "And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people" (Exodus 24:8).

[color=990000][b]The old hymn says:

There is a fountain filled with blood Drawn from Emmanuel's veins,
And sinners, plunged beneath that flood, Lose all their guilty stains.
("There Is a Fountain," by William Cowper, 1731-1800).

And another old song asks,

Have you been to Jesus for the cleansing power? Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?
Are you fully trusting in His grace this hour? Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?
Are you washed in the blood, in the soul-cleansing blood of the Lamb?
Are your garments spotless? Are they white as snow?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?
("Are You Washed in the Blood?" by Elisha A. Hoffman, 1839-1929). [/color][/b]

We must come one more time to the scarlet thread of the Blood in the Old Testament. This last time, we are thinking of the Day of Atonement, called Yom Kippur. The Hebrew word "kaphar" is translated "atonement" in our English Bible. This word literally means "to cover." God covers our sins by the Blood of Christ. The Day of Atonement points to that. Our sins are covered when we trust Jesus - and God will never see them. In Leviticus 17 God said:

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement [a covering] for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul" (Leviticus 17:11).

This obviously points to the Blood of Christ. "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins" (Hebrews 10:4). "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus" (Hebrews 10:19).

With the clear understanding that the blood in Leviticus 17 points forward to the Blood of Jesus, we have a very clear statement:

"For it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul"
(Leviticus 17:11).

Dr. J. Vernon McGee said:
I consider verse 11 one of the key verses of this book [of Leviticus]. The life is in the blood. This is restated in verse 14. This is the basis of all sacrifice…This is a great, eternal truth. This explains why Abel's sacrifice was more excellent than Cain's. It is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. The blood of Christ is the only thing that can wash away sin (ibid., pp. 405-406).

Then Dr. McGee quotes this song:
What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
What can make me whole again? Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Oh! precious is the flow That makes me white as snow,
No other fount I know, Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
("Nothing But the Blood" by Robert Lowry, 1826-1899).
Are you beginning to see the importance of the blood? Do you see the type, or illustration, of the blood in the words "Thou shalt bind this line of scarlet thread in the window"? (Joshua 2:18). As we continue to follow the scarlet thread through the Bible, we turn now to the New Testament, where we see that salvation comes through the death of Christ, but "not without blood" (Hebrews 9:7).
II. The Blood described by Jesus Christ.

We cannot give you all that Jesus said about His Blood in this one sermon. But we will look at two instances: first, what He said in the "Bread of Life Discourse," and second, what He said when He instituted the Lord's Supper. These two instances trace the scarlet line in the Bible to Christ Himself.

At the end of Jesus' "Bread of Life sermon," He said:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you…He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him" (John 6:53, 56).

Jesus had said concerning His flesh that he would give it "for the life of the world" (John 6:51). Then He said, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you" (John 6:53). Jesus was saying that He fulfilled all of the types and illustrations of the Old Testament Scriptures. The Old Testament taught again and again that life and the forgiveness of sins could only come through the death and the blood of a sacrifice. Salvation was "not without blood" (Hebrews 9:7).
When Jesus told them to eat His flesh and drink His Blood, He was not telling them to practice cannibalism. Dr. J. Vernon McGee comments:

He is not saying to them to begin to eat Him and to drink His blood! What He is saying is that He is going to give His life…He will shed His blood upon the cross and give His life. Salvation is by accepting and receiving Him in a most intimate way (ibid., p. 407).

At the beginning of the Gospel of John we read:
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God…" (John 1:12).
These words "eat my flesh and drink my blood" are pictures of "receiving" Christ (John 1:12). The Bible tells us to believe on Him, to come to Him, to trust Him, to receive Him, to eat His flesh and drink His Blood. These are human expressions which explain to you that you must personally contact Jesus Christ to be saved. You must have a living relationship to Him! "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31).

But notice that Jesus said, "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life" (John 6:54). He makes a clear distinction between His death and His Blood in this verse.

In The MacArthur Study Bible, John MacArthur repeats his error that the Blood of Christ is only "a substitute word" for His death. In footnote number 44, on page 190 of Preaching to a Dying Nation, Dr. Cagan and I list 8 citations in The MacArthur Study Bible where Dr. MacArthur says that the Blood is merely another word for the death of Christ. MacArthur says, "Blood is used as a substitute word for death" (cf. p. 1911, The MacArthur Study Bible). But Dr. MacArthur is wrong. "Blood" is not "a substitute word" for death in John 6:53-56. It is clear in John 6:54 that the death of His flesh and His Blood are two separate things, "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life" (John 6:54). You must have the death of Christ to pay the penalty for your sin (Romans 5:10). But you must also have the Blood of Christ to cleanse you from sin (I John 1:7). "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you" (John 6:53). You must have your sins paid for by His death, and you must have your sins washed, cleansed by His Blood!
On page 237 of The MacArthur New Testament Commentary on Hebrews (Chicago: Moody Press, 1983), Dr. MacArthur said, "It was not Jesus' physical blood which saves us. Christ's own physical blood, in itself, does not cleanse from sin." This is a direct contradiction of I John 1:7,
"The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

[color=990000][b]Our forefathers [u]answered the liberals concerning the Blood of Christ. Liberals like Harry Emerson Fosdick denied the Blood, while our Bible-believing forefathers, like Dr. R. A. Torrey and Dr. J. Gresham Machen, proclaimed and defended the Blood. [/u]Why has this issue been raised anew by Dr. MacArthur? These are days when Bible-believing Christians should stand once again for "The Book, the Blood, and the Blessed Hope." It is as wrong for us to sit in quiet silence while the Blood of Christ is denied as it would have been if R. A. Torrey or J. Gresham Machen had remained silent when the liberals attacked the Blood in their day. The Bible still says:[/color][/b]

[color=990000][b]"The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin"
(I John 1:7).
Now think about what Jesus said when He instituted the Lord's Supper:
"And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins"
(Matthew 26:27-28).

The scarlet line of blood takes us to the Lord's Supper, as we follow that blood-red cord through the Bible.
Paul gives us the two elements in the Lord's Supper in I Corinthians 11:23-26. He tells us that Jesus said, "Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me" (11:24). Then we are told, "After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me" (11:25).

These verses tell us two things. First, the Lord's Supper is done "in remembrance" of what Jesus did on the Cross. It does not impart grace to us, as the Catholics say. It is done "in remembrance of me." Second, there are two elements in the Lord's Supper, to remind us of the death of Christ's Body, and, secondly, to remind us of His Blood. There are two elements in the Lord's Supper. [/color]

Dr. John MacArthur said:

I believe that to speak of Christ's blood, as it was shed on the cross, is the same as referring to his death. They aren't two elements as some people are trying to teach (see Preaching to a Dying Nation by R. L. Hymers, Jr. and Christopher Cagan for the reference, p. 173).

[u]But the Lord's Supper shows clearly that Dr. MacArthur is wrong. Every time we take the Lord's Supper we are clearly shown that he is wrong.[/u] The bread reminds us of the death of Christ. The cup reminds us of the Blood of Christ. They are two separate elements in the Bible (cf. Matthew 26:27-28; I Corinthians 11:23-25). The scarlet thread runs through the teachings of Christ Himself on the Lord's Supper. The Lord's Supper shows that salvation comes by the death of Jesus, but "not without blood" (Hebrews 9:7).

If you read what I have written carefully, you will see that I have not attacked John MacArthur. I have made no attack whatsoever on him as a person. All I have done is answer his doctrines on the Blood, which he has given publicly for several years. It is not wrong for me to correct false doctrine, particularly on cardinal doctrines like the Blood of Christ. Every pastor in America ought to make sure that he teaches his people correct doctrine. Every pastor should make sure that he corrects false doctrines on fundamental subjects like the Blood. It is not unloving or unscriptural to make sure that people understand what the Bible says about the Blood of Christ, and to correct those who misrepresent Christ's Blood.

[u]The Blood in the teachings of the Apostles.[/u]

[color=990000]I only have time to list a few of the places where the Apostles spoke of the Blood of Christ. We read of the importance of the Blood in Romans 3:24-25 and Romans 5:9. We read of the Blood in I Corinthians 10:16; in Galatians 6:14; in Ephesians 1:7; 2:13; in Colossians 1:20; in Hebrews 9:12; 9:14; 10:19; 12:24; 13:12-13; and 13:20. We read of Christ's Blood in I Peter 1:2, and in 1:18-19; and in I John 1:7. In the Book of Revelation the Blood of Christ is spoken of many times, in Revelation 1:5; 5:8-9; 7:14; and 12:11. The harlot Rahab "bound the scarlet line in the window" (Joshua 2:21). And that scarlet red line runs from one end of the Bible to the other - telling us about the precious Blood of Jesus Christ - that washes away sin.

I close this post by quoting from the Book of Revelation, the last book of the Bible:

"Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood" (Revelation 1:5).

Those in Heaven will be saved, but "not without blood" (Hebrews 9:7).

And I ask you "Have you been washed from your sins by the Blood of Jesus?"

Have you been to Jesus for the cleansing power? Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?

Are you fully trusting in His grace this hour? Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?

Are you washed in the blood, in the soul-cleansing blood of the Lamb?

Are your garments spotless? Are they white as snow?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?"

("Are You Washed in the Blood?" by Elisha A. Hoffman, 1839-1929). [/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

[url=http://www.rlhymersjr.com/Online_Sermons/02-17-02AM_TheScarletThreadThroughTheBible.html]The Scarlet Thread of blood[/url]

Hello Walter,

Late last night I lost the reply I'd started to your last post to me, so I abandoned the attempt until today. This morning, I see you have re-covered the ground in some detail, with quotes from the Old Testament, and, some discussion from the New Testament.

Some more verses have come to mind, which highlight further why I challenged the view which you have been presenting:

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].

12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Rom 5:14 [b]Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses[/b],

The Jews would have had a much better idea of how many years these few verses encompass. What I had wanted you to consider, is that the distance in time between Abel and Noah is at least sixteen hundred years, and, the distance in time from Noah to Moses is at least seven hundred and fifty years. (Job's sacrifices fall within that period also.) But, there was no [i]religious ritual[/i] for sacrifice, until the Law had been given. It was between the individual man and God, as it is now.

Nevertheless, God [i][b]was[/b][/i] dealing with sin. He had cursed the ground for Adam's sake. He had altered the serpents terms of reference, and Eve's, and He had given clothes to His children, to cover [i]their sense of nakedness[/i], as much as to protect His own sight from the darkened state of their physical forms.

He challenged Cain about the disappearance of Abel, and put a mark on Cain to preserve his life. Then, a thousand years later (just over), just after Adam had died, Noah was born, who, as the only senior male who would be left, became the first 'type' of Christ, the Saviour, who went [i]through[/i] the great Flood (of death) by which every other living thing died (six hundred years later). This also typifies Christ's death for us, by which everything living in the power of Satan, is overwhelmed by His death, for us, and, potentially, [u]in[/u] us. (We could talk about Seth as a 'type' of second birth, but then we really are straying from 'End-Time View'!)

My research within scripture shows that Abraham had been born before Noah died, and still, there are no 'Jews' in existence. (Job was an Elamite. Gen 10:22; Gen 11:10. Gen 10:22 begs the question of whether Elam and Asshur were born before, or, in the Ark.)

Three generations later, the Hebrews are established in Egypt (and its idolatries) - later known as a 'type' of sin' - for over four hundred years before the Law was given to Moses the Levite, in the wilderness. (And later still, the pattern for the Tabernacle was given, with instructions for the priestly orders). Exo 13:2; Num 3:12

Now, lastly, truthfully, I have not read your other posts in full, but, I am dismayed by your habit of starting a response with an attack on the character or intelligence of the person you're addressing. I wonder if this is because you feel freed from social constraints by the anonymity of the internet, or, this is how also you speak to your acquaintances face-to-face?

Or, you genuinely believe yourself to be more of an authority on absolutely everything to do with biblical faith, than every other Christian alive in your generation? For instance, to me:

How do I begin to respond to your post? You have no understanding of who or what God is, and of what His plan has been before creating creation...

Also, since now I have drawn attention to this for both of us, I'm almost certain (Please note I've left room for error on my part.) this mention would (in the past), automatically bring upon myself further condemnation, long before the words 'I'm sorry. I see that I may have misjudged you', could cross your mind or the published page.

Please note, this isn't about you pretending you don't know all that you do, nor about your acknowledging that I may know God more than you implied I do, but about [i]how[/i] you [i]present[/i] your knowledge to your fellow brethern, and about how you learn what you can from them.

I realise that academics sometimes have to work with people who are full of them[u]selves[/u], who never let up on how clever they are (and by default, how [u]un[/u]clever everyone else is), and how, simply to survive, a retaliatory attitude may develop, but, it is not healthy, and it's not Godly, and it doesn't do His reputation any favours. Therefore, I humbly request you give time and meditation to consider - and where necessary, to revise - your approach to sharing your knowledge, and your love of the word of God, here in these forums.

It is neither shame, nor crime, to allow oneself to benefit from another's God-guided study. It is in fact, psrt of God's design, as Paul described in Eph 4:14, 16, 17. May God really bless your heart, as you consider these things.

To Walter,

From your post to Lysa, re Matt 10:34

I do not think “sword”, in this text, implies bloodshed.

3162 machaira {makh'-ahee-rah}
from a presumed derivative of 3163; TDNT - 4:524,572; n f
AV - sword 29; 29
1) a large knife, used for killing animals and cutting up flesh
2) a small sword, as distinguished from a large sword
2a) curved sword, for a cutting stroke
2b) a straight sword, for thrusting

Earlier in the thread you referred to the sword in Rev 19:15, 21 Here is Strong's for that 'sword'

4501 rhomphaia {hrom-fah'-yah}
probably of foreign origin; TDNT - 6:993,987; n f
AV - sword 7; 7
1) a large sword
2) properly a long Thracian javelin, also a kind of long sword wont
to be worn on the right shoulder

In other words, I don't think there's any doubt that God still intends the bloodshed of those who refuse His Son and His salvation.

I said I wasn't going to reply to you Walter but this will be my final one.

My spirit has only good thoughts towards you Brother. I have prayed for you and will continue to pray for you as the LORD leads.

In response to your attacks, again, the Holy Spirit is telling me to tell you, God Bless You!

My prayer is that if I am in error, I want God's judgement to fall on me to rid me of anything that is not Him. That has always been my prayer and will continue to be so.

I love you Walter!

Your Brother in Christ

To Alive-to-God:

Where did I say anything about bloodshed in my post?

The "Sword" that I referred to is the [b]Word of God, that is found in the Bible, that is the Sword of the Spirit--that is what divides believers from non-believers, and unfortunately today, believers from believers.[/b]

The Sword of the Spirit

" 17. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit,[color=990000] which is the word of God:[/color]" Ephesians 6:17

Heb 4:12
[color=990000][b]For the word of God [/color][/b]is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The Sword of the Spirit, God's Word, is what divides people.

What God has in store for those who refuse His Son, the only source of salvation for mankind, is hell. Hell was originally created for Satan and his demons. Their fate is set, and unchangeable. When man sinned in the garden, God sent a remedy by the shedding of blood of a sinless substitue, an animal, to cover his sin, until, in the fullness of time His Son, Jesus Christ, the Messiah took on the the body of a man and came to the earth to suffer and die and shed His blood on the cross and die for ALL the of sins of humanity, from the beginning of time to the end of time. This is my paraphrase "He who knew no sin, became sin, for all those that believe"

This is the actual verse:
21. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
(2 Cor 5:21)

Only those who beleive in the Son, and accept His free gift, are saved. Those that refuse to believe God, and accept this free gift of the Son, are not saved and will join Satan and his demons, and spend eternity with them, in hell.

Sincerely,

Walter

by Alive-to-God on 2009/12/30 4:20:55

To Walter,

From your post to Lysa, re Matt 10:34
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do not think “sword”, in this text, implies bloodshed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Strong's numbers

3162 machaira {makh'-ahee-rah}
from a presumed derivative of 3163; TDNT - 4:524,572; n f
AV - sword 29; 29
1) a large knife, used for killing animals and cutting up flesh
2) a small sword, as distinguished from a large sword
2a) curved sword, for a cutting stroke
2b) a straight sword, for thrusting

Earlier in the thread you referred to the sword in Rev 19:15, 21 Here is Strong's for that 'sword'

4501 rhomphaia {hrom-fah'-yah}
probably of foreign origin; TDNT - 6:993,987; n f
AV - sword 7; 7
1) a large sword
2) properly a long Thracian javelin, also a kind of long sword wont
to be worn on the right shoulder

[color=990000][b]In other words, I don't think there's any doubt that God still intends the bloodshed of those who refuse His Son and His salvation.[/coor][/b]

Hello, Heydave:

I would like to post this again. It was buried in a previous post, and maybe you did not see it.

Let me know what you think about it.

There are two types of people on this planet. Those that believe God, and those that refuse to believe God. Those that believe God keep His commandments. Those that do not believe God will not keep His commandments

I will post this again, that shows when the blood sacrifice was required by God (Genesis 3::15-21), in the beginning, in the Garden, to cover the sin of Adam & Eve and all creation, until the Seed of the Woman would come to take away the sin of believers.

Throughout God’s Word in the Old Testament, as well as the New Testament, we find the shedding of innocent blood. Hebrews tells us that “without the shedding of blood is no remission (forgiveness) for sin.” (Hebrews 9:22).

In the Old Testament man was commanded to shed the blood of an animal, a sinless substitute, including the fat, upon the altar. This is first explained for us in Genesis chapter 3:21-- just after God admonishes Satan and prophesizes of the coming Redeemer, the Seed of the Woman.:

Genesis 3:14-15
14. And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it (Messiah, Jesus Christ, the “Seed of the Woman”) shall bruise thy (Satan’s) head, and thou (Satan) shalt bruise his (Messiah’s) heel.

[color=990000][b]Next, God slays an animal, and sacrifices it before Adam and Eve, and then makes clothes for them, from the skins of the slain animal.[/color][/b]

“21. Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.” Their sins were covered up and forgotten, but "not without blood" (Hebrews 9:7) “7. But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:”

[color=990000][b]In Chapter 4 we have the continuation and a greater understanding of the Scarlet thread that runs through the Bible.[/color][/b]

Cain & Abel

2. And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. 4. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock AND THE FAT THEREOF. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5. But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

Here, at this point, if we know our Bibles, we turn to Leviticus 4:5-13 Lev 6:24-30 and find God’s requirement for the sin offering:

THE SIN OFFERING:
The type of animal required: Bull, Lamb, Goat, Dove or Pigeon
Offerers Work (Family Priest, the Father of the house): Lay on Hands to become one with the animal, and kill the animal
Priests Work: Puts Blood on the Altar
God’s Portion of the Sacrifice: FAT of the inner parts, kidneys, & liver.
Priests portion of the sacrifice: If blood taken into the tabernalcle, flesh burned outside the camp, otherwise flesh was the Priests.
Offerers Portion: NONE

[color=990000][b]Noah, took the animals into the ark two by two. However, the clean animals, used for sacrifice, were taken aboard seven by seven. The "clean beasts" were to be used as a blood sacrifice to the Lord.[/color][/b]

Genesis 7:2 "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female."

When the earth finally dried after the flood and Noah disembarked from the ark, he brought all of the animals off the Ark and BUILT AN ALTAR UNTO THE LORD AND SACRIFICED ONE OF EVERY “CLEAN” ANIMAL TO THE LORD:

20. And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
22. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

God, in his foreknowledge provided a way to cover the sin of man with the shedding of innocent blood, on the altar, in the Old Testament, to only cover the sins of the people who believed in Him. In the New Testament his Son would take care of the sin problem forever, for all those that believe.

In the New Testament, God sent His Son, God the Word, to become sin for all of mankind, from the beginning of time to the end of time. All of those that were covered by the blood in the Old Testament were waiting in Abraham’s bosom, for the Messiah to take care of the sin problem forever. He did that when He resurrected from the dead and took control of the keys of death and hell, and took “captivity captive” (those in Abraham’s bosom) back to heaven. All of those before the cross, that believed God, and in shedding the blood of a sinless substitue, for their sin are now in heaven, waiting for their glorified bodies at the Resurrection. That will be Adam, Eve, Abel, Seth, Noah, Shem, and all of believers who believed God in His prophecy in Genesis 3:15 (the seed of the woman, Messiah).

Also in heaven right now are those after the cross, who believed in Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Seed of the Woman, that came and paid the price for their sin in full.

The Blood pictured in the Old Testament

The scarlet thread running through the Bible is a picture of the Blood of Jesus Christ, shed on the Cross to wash away sin. The Old Testament Book of Genesis, the first book of the Bible, gives us the earliest picture of the Blood. God Himself killed an animal and clothed Adam and Eve with skin. Blood had to be spilled for our first parents to have the nakedness of their sins covered, "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them" (Genesis 3:21). Their sins were covered up and forgotten, but "not without blood" (Hebrews 9:7).

Our first parents had two sons, Cain and Abel.
"And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect" (Genesis 4:2-5).

[b]Some modern commentators miss the point here. Charles C. Ryrie incorrectly says, "A bloodless offering was perfectly appropriate; it was Cain's attitude of unbelief that displeased God" ( Ryrie Study Bible, note on Genesis 4:3).[/b]

[color=990000][b]But the Bible says, "Unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect" (Genesis 4:5). God did not respect Cain's offering. Why? The reason is obvious: because no blood had been shed. The Scofield Reference Bible makes this clear, "This type is brought into prominence by contrast with Cain's bloodless offering of the fruit of his own works, and proclaims, in the very infancy of the race, the primal truth that 'without shedding of blood is no remission' (Hebrews 9:22)" (note on Genesis 4:4). Dr. Ryrie was not correct when he said that Cain's offering was "perfectly appropriate." [/color][/b]

Dr. J. Vernon McGee correctly says of Cain's offering:
And the offering he brought denied that human nature is evil. God said, "Bring that little blood sacrifice which will point to the Redeemer who is coming into the world"… The difference between Cain and Abel was not a character difference at all, but the difference was in the offerings which they brought (J. Vernon McGee, Thru the Bible, Nashville: Thomas Nelson, volume I, p. 29).

Abel brought a blood offering. Cain did not bring a blood offering. "But unto Cain and to his offering he [God] had not respect" (Genesis 4:5). No blood - no respect - end of argument! Cain's offering was rejected. Abel's offering was accepted, but "not without blood" (Hebrews 9:7).
After the Great Flood, the first thing Noah did was to offer a blood sacrifice.

[color=990000][b]"Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt-offerings on the altar. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake…" (Genesis 8:20-21).

Just as Abel brought a blood sacrifice, so did Noah. The scarlet line of blood, pointing to the Blood of Christ, continued.

With the call of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3), God began forming the nation of Israel to serve Him. But Abraham had to understand the importance of a blood sacrifice for sin. When Abraham took his son Isaac and went up to Mount Moriah, the boy Isaac said, "Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt-offering?" (Genesis 22:7). The little boy knew they had to have a blood offering. He had learned it. God had told Abraham to offer Isaac (Genesis 22:2). But when Abraham raised his knife, God said:Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

dogma:
"An authoritative principle, belief or statement of opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true regardless of evidence, or without evidence to support it."
Wictionary

I imagine there are hundreds and hundreds of different end time views that could be discussed and brought to light. Probably most of us have a differing view, which obviously means that someone is wrong.

The problem comes, however , when we become willing to destroy and annihilate everyone who opposes our view. Then, our dialogue and communion becomes a war; not an edifying communion. This is what the Crusades were all about, and it is connected to our lust for power and self righteousness. Basically, "You are wrong because you will not bend to my ideas."...kind of thinking.

Yes, there are heresies and false doctrines, and they should be confronted, but most conversation, particularly about this subject, is speculative, due to much symbolic language as the Lord spoke through the prophets.

Maybe we should have a spirit that would help all of us actually be there in that DAY, in the favor of the Lord, and enter in to His Heaven, as we discuss these relevant issues of hope with His family, and realize that none of us actually have it all together. we are still growing, and learning of Him and His faith.

Hello, Dave:

Yes, I did read your post in detail, as well as the commnentary.

My post, that you responded to, was a little different. I started in the Word of God, in the Book of Genesis, with an overview of other books, and then finished my analysis with two entirely different commentary views. One supporting your view, and then one supporting my view.

This commentary supports your view, Dave:
‘Some modern commentators miss the point here. Charles C. Ryrie incorrectly says, "A bloodless offering was perfectly appropriate; it was Cain's attitude of unbelief that displeased God" ( Ryrie Study Bible, note on Genesis 4:3).

My response to the commentary you support, Dave:

But the Bible says, "Unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect" (Genesis 4:5). God did not respect Cain's offering. Why? The reason is obvious: because no blood had been shed.[color=990000][b]The Scofield Reference Bible makes this clear, "This type is brought into prominence by contrast with Cain's bloodless offering of the fruit of his own works, and proclaims, in the very infancy of the race, the primal truth that 'without shedding of blood is no remission' (Hebrews 9:22)" (note on Genesis 4:4). [/color][/b]

Dr. Ryrie was not correct when he said that Cain's offering was "perfectly appropriate."

[color=990000][b]Dr. J. Vernon McGee correctly says of Cain's offering:
[u]And the offering he brought denied that human nature is evil.[/u] God said, "Bring that little blood sacrifice which will point to the Redeemer who is coming into the world"… The difference between Cain and Abel was not a character difference at all, but the difference was in the offerings which they brought (J. Vernon McGee, Thru the Bible, Nashville: Thomas Nelson, volume I, p. 29).

Abel brought a blood offering. Cain did not bring a blood offering. "But unto Cain and to his offering he [God] had not respect" (Genesis 4:5). No blood - no respect - end of argument! Cain's offering was rejected. Abel's offering was accepted, but "not without blood" (Hebrews 9:7).
After the Great Flood, the first thing Noah did was to offer a blood sacrifice. [/color][/b]

[b]"Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt-offerings on the altar. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake…" (Genesis 8:20-21).

Just as Abel brought a blood sacrifice, so did Noah. The scarlet line of blood, pointing to the Blood of Christ, continued. [/b]

With the call of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3), God began forming the nation of Israel to serve Him. But Abraham had to understand the importance of a blood sacrifice for sin. When Abraham took his son Isaac and went up to Mount Moriah, the boy Isaac said, "Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt-offering?" (Genesis 22:7). The little boy knew they had to have a blood offering. He had learned it. God had told Abraham to offer Isaac (Genesis 22:2). But when Abraham raised his knife, God said:Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
xxxxxxxxxxxxx

This is why I was asking for a response from you. You must not have read the entire post.[b] If you disagree with my position, as well as Scoffield & J. Vernon McGee, I would like to know why you disagree[u] Biblically.[/b][/u]

God bless,

Walter

To Heydave;

The Bible has much to say about this issue. I posted this previoulsy, but you must have missed it as well:

Cain & Abel

2. And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.[b][color=990000] 4. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock AND THE FAT THEREOF. [/b][/color]And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5. But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

The only way to bring the FAT THEROF of the firstlings of one’s flock is to slay it, and get to the fat, that is within the animal.

If we look at leviticus chapter 4, we can see that in the Sin Offering, required by God, that the animal’s fat was God’s portion of the Offering, to be burned on the altar, as a “sweet savor” unto the Lord.

Here, we turn to Leviticus 4:5-13 Lev 6:24-30 and find God’s requirement for the sin offering:

THE SIN OFFERING:
The type of animal required: Bull, Lamb, Goat, Dove or Pigeon

Offerers Work (Family Priest, the Father of the house): Lay on Hands to become one with the animal, and kill the animal
Priests Work: Puts Blood on the Altar

God’s Portion of the Sacrifice: FAT of the inner parts, kidneys, & liver.

Priests portion of the sacrifice: If blood taken into the tabernalcle, flesh burned outside the camp, otherwise flesh was the Priests.

Offerers Portion: NONE

Also, if we turn to Leviticus 5:14-19 & 6:1-7 & 7:1-10 we find that the Trespass offering required that Fat of the inner parts, kidneys & liver were GOD’S PORTION OF THE SACRIFICE.

We can see from the above that Abel was offering the required sacrifice, an unblemished first born lamb, as an offering, with the Fat specified as God’s portion in the written requirements later found in Leviticus.

Sincerely,

Walter

Basically, "You are wrong because you will not bend to my ideas."...kind of thinking.

This is the can of worms that Sola Scriptura always opens up. It elevates each man or woman as their own arbiter of truth. It demands that each person personally reconstruct the entirety of Christian belief from a painstaking search of the Scriptures ALONE. Better get it right too, or you'll burn.

Wouldn't it be better if the entire Church got together like in Acts 15 to allow the Holy Spirit to speak to them corporately so they can have unity?

O...wait...they DID. O...wait...they still DO.

Hmmmm....

CCC123 Exactly. The catholic church never condradicts itself or bends interpretation to the flavor of the decade.
They never ask their subordinates to bend to their thinking or interpretation.

"Wouldn't it be better if the entire Church got together like in Acts 15 to allow the Holy Spirit to speak to them corporately so they can have unity?"cc123

Unity via confusion is not unity. How many catholics would you say understand the process of canonizing a saint or what is necessary to make them a patron saint? How many do you think know and agree with all of your copy and pasting? My dad is a business manager at a catholic church and he and my mom know nothing of the doctrine you slap on here. Many don't care to know... "they're catholic" and that's all they need to know. I'm not sure why you copy and paste here, you should work on you're own house first.. a house unified by deception or lack of knowledge is not unity it's blind loyalty. There is a difference.

Are you also speaking of the kind of unity Paul and Peter had when Peter was rebuked? Or the unity of Paul and Barnabas?

To CCC123:

Shouldn't we all just get along, and be friends, and forget about sound doctrine?

[b]What does the bible teach us about this issue?[/b]

We are to continue in the apostles’ doctrine (Ac. 2:42).

The apostles filled Jerusalem with doctrine (Ac. 5:28).

We are saved by believing the right doctrine (Ro. 6:17; 1 Jn. 5:20; 2 Jn. 9).

We are to separate from those who teach false doctrine (Ro. 16:17).

We must be careful of winds of false doctrine (Ep. 4:14).

No false doctrine is to be allowed (1 Ti. 1:3).

The preacher is to give himself to doctrine (1 Ti. 4:13).

The preacher is to take heed to doctrine (1 Ti. 4:16).

Preachers who labor in doctrine are to be rewarded (1 Ti. 5:17).

Sound doctrine is to be adorned with godly living (1 Ti. 6:1,3; Tit. 2:1).

The Bible is given for doctrine (2 Ti. 3:16).

The Bible is to be preached with doctrine (2 Ti. 4:2).

[color=990000][b]The last days is characterized by a turning from sound doctrine (2 Ti. 4:3). [/color][/b]

The preacher must be able to use doctrine to protect the church (Tit. 1:9).

Our doctrine is to be uncorrupt (Tit. 2:10).

We abide in Christ by sound doctrine (1 Jn. 2:24-27).

True Christian love is grounded in truth or sound Bible doctrine (2 Jn. 1; 3 Jn. 1).

Those who abide not in sound doctrine are not of God and are not be to received (2 Jn. 9-10).
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[color=000000][b]You and I (CCC123) must not read the same Bible. Mine tells me that in order to be approved unto God, that I have to:[/color][/b]

15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18. Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. (2 Timothy 2:15-18)

The word “doctrine” simply means teaching. Bible doctrine, therefore, refers to the teaching of the Scriptures. [color=990000][b]Since the days of the apostles, Bible-believing people have had an emphasis upon sound doctrine, but today doctrine is often downplayed in favor of [u]ecumenical unity, supported by R2D2.[/u]
The following statement by popular singer Pat Boone, a charismatic, typifies the attitude that is common among ecumenists: “Doctrine divides, experience unites. We don’t all have our doctrine all completely correct, but God doesn’t judge us on our understanding of doctrine.” (August 17, 2001).

HOW IMPORTANT IS DOCTRINE?

According to the Word of God, sound doctrine is extremely important.

1. The two Greek words translated “doctrine” in the King James Bible, didaskalia and didache, are also translated “teacheth” (Ro. 12:7) and “learning” (Ro. 15:4). These Greek words are used more than 140 times in the New Testament, which shows how important doctrine is before God.

2. Doctrine and its companion terms are referred to 59 times in 1 and 2 Timothy alone.

3. “The truth” is referred to 10 times in 2 and 3 John alone. The apostle John said, “I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth” (3 Jn. 4).

4. 1 Timothy 1:3 says that no false doctrine is to be allowed, which is a very narrow view of doctrinal purity.

OTHER BIBLE TERMS THAT REFER TO DOCTRINE

“truth” (1 Ti. 2:4)
“the faith” (1 Ti. 3:9; 2 Ti. 3:8; Tit. 1:13)
“wholesome words” (1 Ti. 6:3)
“sound words” (2 Ti. 1:13).

CAN WE KNOW SOUND DOCTRINE?

In the previous quote by singer Pat Boone, we are told that, “We don’t all have our doctrine all completely correct, but God doesn’t judge us on our understanding of doctrine.” The Lord Jesus Christ, though, said that a believer can know sound doctrine.

1. We know sound doctrine through obedience (Jn. 7:17). If a man is open to the truth and willing to obey God, the Lord will give him wisdom so that he can discern sound doctrine from false. In Proverbs 1:23 God says, “Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.” God has promised to make His truth known to those who repent and submit to Him.

2. We know sound doctrine through continuing in God’s Word (Jn. 8:31-32). In 2 Timothy 2:15 the believer is commanded to rightly divide the Word. This refers to interpreting it properly and knowing its doctrine correctly. Would God require a Christian to rightly divide the Word of truth if He did not intend to give him the ability to do that? This verse indicates that God will hold the Christian accountable for this task, because the one who rightly divides the Word of truth is approved. It is implied that the one who does not rightly divide the truth is disapproved. This means that Pat Boone and other ecumenists are wrong when they say that God does not hold the believer accountable to know sound doctrine.

3. We know sound doctrine through the Holy Spirit. 1 John 2:20-21 says, “But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.” Verse 27 says further, “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” Thus the Scriptures plainly state that the believer has the Holy Spirit to teach him and he can know the truth.

If the ecumenical philosophy is correct and a believer cannot be certain of sound doctrine, the commandments and promises of God make no sense. [/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter
______________________

Brother Tom said:

dogma: "An authoritative principle, belief or statement of opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true regardless of evidence, or without evidence to support it." Wictionary I imagine there are hundreds and hundreds of different end time views that could be discussed and brought to light. Probably most of us have a differing view, which obviously means that someone is wrong. The problem comes, however , when we become willing to destroy and annihilate everyone who opposes our view. Then, our dialogue and communion becomes a war; not an edifying communion. This is what the Crusades were all about, and it is connected to our lust for power and self righteousness. Basically, "You are wrong because you will not bend to my ideas."...kind of thinking. Yes, there are heresies and false doctrines, and they should be confronted, but most conversation, particularly about this subject, is speculative, due to much symbolic language as the Lord spoke through the prophets. Maybe we should have a spirit that would help all of us actually be there in that DAY, in the favor of the Lord, and enter in to His Heaven, as we discuss these relevant issues of hope with His family, and realize that none of us actually have it all together. we are still growing, and learning of Him and His faith.

You are so true to form, Deepthinker.

Instead of responding to what Scripture has to say about Doctrine, you prefer the words from another flawed human being, that agrees with you, and changes the word from Doctrine to Dogma.

All of us are flawed human beings. God has provided a remedy for our fallen state--HIS WORD (The Bible). His Word is what guides the man of God, not the "words" from other fallen people.

That is what divides us. You place no credibiltiy or value on the Word of God.

Sincerery,

Walter

Waltern, you divide yourself from just about everyone here and not because of your elongated copy and pastes. Tell me.. where is your scripture validation for all of your false accusations among your brethren? Really if anyone is true to form, its you.... why? because you're a very slow learner. Who will you accuse next of perverting the Gospel, being a rampant catholic, being married to so and so, or pretending to be such in such??? All of which were WRONG. I would accuse you of being Balaam's donkey but you might be over qualified for being any kind of an ASS that God could use. How many times do you need to be rebuked by the very facts that so illuminate your paranoid, goofriddled, and myopic accusations? You want to be taken seriously yet you refuse to acknowledge your obvious and blatant disregard for scripture itself. Let's give you a sample:

1 Corinthians 13
Love

"1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away."

Read how love is defined waltern, read how it is defined by the very scripture you boast of most selfishly. Don't ignore it.... READ IT. Do you believe you exemplify this quality here on the forum??? No wait... you obviously can't critique yourself... how about your brethren??? What do they think? I think the jury came back with that awhile ago..... but those ears who are supposed to hear what the spirit has said to you in love, well they are as deaf as your own denial that the problem certainly could not be you.

Do you even realize the 'clanging cymbal' analogy above??? I think Paul is speaking prophetically here. Paul said: RESOUNDING GONG. Not just a gong but a 'resounding gong' that can't learn and continues to clang and gong and clang and gong etc.... Guess what Waltern?? Paul is speaking to YOU. Either you get it or you don't. Resounding gongs don't get it, they ignore the obvious because they are too in love with the sound they make... a sound that no one wants to hear and a sound that the Holy Spirit just warned us about. You have been rebuked in love but you don't care. If you did, you wouldn't have become the most ignorant and shameful version of 'Sherlock Holmes' with your goofy, tacky, and 'astuteless' observations and wrongheaded accusations of many here who have proven themselves to be not only of Godly qualities and good doctrine, but highly tolerant of your stupidity and presumption.... and again this out of the love described in the scripture above. And this.. the same love you seem to be able to quote (because after all it is SCRIPTURE) but not demonstrate. You quote scripture... many here live it.. not because they follow the letter of the law to perfection, or because of their scholarly posts, but because you, ironically, bring out their good fruit in their love for you in their posts... all the while you demonstrate your own foul and decomposing fruit hanging for dear life to the root that isn't impressed at all about how much you think you know. Do you see the irony here?? If not, then you refuse to be conformed to the very thing you cling to as your identity... scripture. Believe it or not, scripture learned in the spirit and love of Christ is desinged to transform and mold the brethren first, and then.. and only then, can they teach. Ask Peter. Because when a true teacher of Christ teaches...and those who listen truly listen, they know the spirit from which it comes. That's why you can know scripture up and down, sideways and back, and still be considered a dung heap of useless verbage.

CCRider, Your no different brother. Railing at your brother in Christ won't do anything. I highly suggest editing your post.

If brother Walter wants to accuse then let him, but let us not use words that are not fitting for us believers. There is a temptation to strike back, but endure that temptation. Silence can be the best medicine in some cases, and prayer offered up to that one who has badgered you will make you stronger to resist the next time.

Hello, ccrider

I see you are new to Sermonindex as of today, 12/30/2009.
Are you any relation to Deepthinker? Just wondering. no name, no personal email address, no State. Sort of fits a pattern here.

What is the topic of this thread, ccrider?

Scripture and Doctrine is the answer!

Doctrine and Scripture are defined as the following (Noah Webster’s 1828 Dictionary:

DOCTRINE, n. [L., to teach.]
1. In a general sense, whatever is taught. Hence, a principle or position in any science; whatever is laid down as true by an instructor or master. The doctrines of the gospel are the principles or truths taught by Christ and his apostles. The doctrines of Plato are the principles which he taught. Hence a doctrine may be true or false; it may be a mere tenet or opinion.

2. The act of teaching.
He taught them many things by parables, and said to them in his doctrine. Mark 4.

3. Learning; knowledge.
Whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Isaiah 28.

4. The truths of the gospel in general.
That they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things. Titus 2.

5. Instruction and confirmation in the truths of the gospel. 2 Timothy 3.

SCRIP'TURE, n. [L. scriptura, from scribo, to write.]
\t1. In its primary sense, a writing; any thing written.
\t2. Appropriately, and by way of distinction, the books of the Old and New Testament; the Bible. The word is used either in the singular or plural number, to denote the sacred writings or divine oracles, called sacred or holy, as proceeding from God and containing sacred doctrines and precepts.
\tThere is not any action that a man ought to do or forbear, but the Scripture will give him a clear precept or prohibition for it.
\tCompared with the knowledge which the Scriptures contain, every other subject of human inquiry is vanity and emptiness.

Other definitions that apply on this thread (Scripture and Doctrine):

SCRIP'TURIST, n. One well versed in the Scriptures.

SCRIP'TURAL, a. [from scripture.]
\t1. Contained in the Scriptures, so called by way of eminence, that is, in the Bible; as a scriptural word, expression or phrase.
\t2. According to the Scriptures or sacred oracles; as a scriptural doctrine.

SCRIP'TURALIST, n. One who adheres literally to the Scriptures and makes them the foundation of all philosophy.

[b]This thread that you are posting on ccrider is entitled “Scripture and Doctrine”. It has everything to do with the understanding of Sound Doctrine that is found in the Scriptures.

What is sad, is that today most Christians have no understanding of Sound Doctrine, that is only supported by Scripture. We cannot support the Doctrine that we post here by our own ideas or emotion, but only by the Word of God, the Bible..

Some believers do not want to do that, and are uncomfortable in doing so. Their feet are held to the fire, so to speak, by the Word of God. If you are that type of person, it would probably be easier for you to focus on the other forums (i.e. Articles & Sermons, General Topics, Miracles that follow the plow, Devotional thoughts, & News and current events)

In the Scripture and Doctrine section, only one type of answer is the correct answer. What answer is that? The one that is supported in the Word of God, not in the minds of men.[/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

You and I (CCC123) must not read the same Bible. Mine tells me that in order to be approved unto God, that I have to: 15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God,

Go look. You'll find that that old English word "study" means "be diligent" or "make an effort"...basically "make sure you do this". This is why the KJV says "study to be quiet." (1 Thess 4:11)

So this is an exhortation to a bishop to make certain that he is approved unto God.

But thanks for the incredibly wonderful example of why Sola Scriptura and the ease of eisegesis among ignorant and unstable men can shipwreck souls.

CCC123............. "Exactly. The Catholic church never contradicts itself or bends interpretation to the flavor of the decade.
They never ask their subordinates to bend to their thinking or interpretation." [ To Waltern I assume. ]

No, they don't [ ask subordinates to bend to their thinking ]. They demand it, and murder those who resist....[ by the thousands and thousands..]

Once an ancient satanic Babylonian cult; always a satanic Babylonian cult.

No Waltern.... WOW....short memory. My e-mail address was posted when I signed up so I don't know what your looking at. I've been here over a year and deleted my account and am back. Again you're wrong. In the recent past, you accused me over and over again wrongly and when I called you out on it and proved you wrong you basically said you were 'talking to Orthodox anyway'. You don't have a clue, you can't keep track of people or issues... that's why you are always rebuked and proved wrong in many of your accusations of your brothers and sisters. Here we go again....amazing. The topic of the thread is what it is.... but I do know this: the thread has nothing to do with wrongly accusing brethren of being who they are not. Why should I stick to thread topic if you permit youself to take a break so you can smuggly spew ridiculous accusations?? You say doctrine is important but then out of nowhere you go off on this pitiful attempt to be Sherlock Holmes and embarrass yourself.... again. We've debated scripture and have bantered back and forth many times in th past... so I'm well aware of your pompous dissertations as is everyone here. I stand by my last post.. you have all kinds of scripture but no fruit. You honor God with your keyboard but when it comes to being Christlike with your brethren.... again the jury came back on that a long time ago. Thanks for the forum lesson though... you are well schooled in forum ediquette and semantics.. unfortunately you're also a hypocrite who breaks his own standard to play 'forum cop' with wrong accusations that would make the Keystone Cops shake their head. STOP WRONGFULLY ACCUSING YOUR BRETHREN OF BEING WHO THEY ARE CLEARLY NOT... I was hoping you had changed since the last time we were 'thread buddies' because even unsaved people can check themselves after multiple embarrassments. I know most here know what I'm saying because it's been said before. People here are obviously frustrated with your continued antics.... all while you hide behind your red letter copy and pastes.

My name and e-mail were the same as my last account. I haven't put it all up yet but feel no threat from you whether I do or not. 99% of the time you have information on someonge you wrongly accuse anyway, and in that 1% you may accidently get it right, there's no real threat anyway because your reputation with all this now precedes you.

Hi Deepthinker. I'm sure you're right but even Christ himself couldn't bear hypocrites who ran roughshod over people with their 'superior' and pompous knowledge of Scripture. When they wouldn't listen He got tired of it and turned the tables. That said... I'm well aware that I have work to do in certain areas.

What you don't know is that before I left I got PM's from some people discussing how they've been truly hurt by this nonsense and it hasn't let up. Enough is enough.

To Deepthinker:

[b]As I examine the many posts on this thread, in the Subject Matter of Scripture and Doctrine, I think back to our many "conversatons" about this subject. When you first joined Sermonindex, I was in deep prayer for you, and we had many conversations about Scripture & Doctrine, and what you really think about it. In fact, I have a great idea. Since you have told me that you totally reject Scripture and Doctrine, that is found in the Bible, why not ask the Moderators to set up a new Subject matter called “False Doctrine and False Scripture for the False Church”, with you as the Moderator. If they ask for your qualifications, I can help you in that regard.

Below, you will find several of our many conversations on this issue of where you stand on Sound Scripture & Sound Doctrine. By looking these over, they will know immediately that you personally qualify to moderate the False Doctrine and False Scripture of the False Chrurch:

[u]These are some of the highlights of your statements:[/b][/u]

1. [color=990000][b]As regarding Church attendance. I don't go. There is not a man that is worthy enough to sit under.

You will call it rebellion, and maybe your right. But I truly don't know a man who has the "truth" (and I am not talking about bible prophecy, there is more to the bible besides that subject).[/color][/b]

2. [color=990000][b]I've sat under great men. Men that deserved respect because they weren't looking for it. No, in order for me to be in Church, I have to be the Pastor.[/color][/b]

3. [color=990000][b]So it is with me saying that I don't go to church. Oh yes, I know the "law" says for me not to forsake the assembly but I am compelled to obey the Spirit of God, after all He is the one doing the leading. I know you won’t understand any of this. [/color][/b]

4. [color=990000][b]I was seeking Him in prayer and fasting almost 10 years ago when He began to open the word up to me in regards to what I have been spouting. Especially Daniel 9:27. I was about 2 weeks in the fast and believe me brother I had no desire or interest in bible eschatology, in fact I avoided such things because I just wanted to know the LORD. That was my intent when I started the fast, to know Him more intimately.

My brother I would give eschatology up in a moment. As you know I am not educated or old enough or suited to teach such a subject, there are much better qualified men who can do the job far better than I could. But I am compelled to move forward with this, call it a zeal call it error.

But I will seek the LORD again prayer and fasting not to know more about Revelation but to know Him intimately. I never wanted any of this, never!! It's more of a burden, I just want to know the LORD. [/color][/b]

5. [color=990000][b]Another Gospel?

Them's fighten words brother! (haha)

Another gospel that Paul preached was a mixture of law and grace, to draw the individual under condemnation which we have been freed from by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

Not another gospel my brother, rather a correct interpretation of bible prophecy. What you fail to understand is the language in which God spoke through the prophets concerning Matthew 24 and the Apostles writings and the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ whom John received while he was on the Island of Patmos.[/color][/b]

[b]My post to you:[/b]

waltern wrote:
Hello, Deepthinker:

You never mentioned a Church. Do you attend a Bible Believing, Bible Teaching Church each Sunday, and attend a midweek Bible Study? If not, why not? This is a necessity, especially for a newer believer.

We are told to "Test the Spirits, to see whether they are of God"

This is from John Piper, and relates to the subject matter here, that the Lord has placed on my heart for you:

Test the Spirits to See Whether They Are of God

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/1985/488_Test_the_Spirits_to_See_Whether_They_Are_of_God/

Listen | Download | Podcast

[b]Your Response to me:[/b]
Re: Re: Re: An Olive Branch

Amen and Amen

[color=990000][b]As regarding Church attendance. I don't go. There is not a man that is worthy enough to sit under.

You will call it rebellion, and maybe your right. But I truly don't know a man who has the "truth" (and I am not talking about bible prophecy, there is more to the bible besides that subject).[/color][/b]

They are all into this seeker sensitive, purpose driven madness. There maybe one that is not, but he is too far out of the city.

[color=990000][b]I've sat under great men. Men that deserved respect because they weren't looking for it. No, in order for me to be in Church, I have to be the Pastor.[/color][/b]

I have heard the stuff they are teaching today, pure nonsense, you can't fellowship under that regime, my cup would run over and spill out into the aisle crying out against it. My bones would burn within me to say a word of reproof.

If the LORD told you to take a harlot and sleep with her, would you do it?

You'd balk at the idea, you'd question the LORD and believe me people would question you.

Well God told one of the prophets to do just that. We agree with it because we have read about it and know why it was written. But think of the poor guy who just got the command to do it. The law says not to and yet here God is saying, "go take a harlot". He is in a quandary.

Lets say you finally yielded and obeyed. Do you think your reputation would last long in the community, in your church? Nay, you'd be ostracised, cut off from all fellowship. You'd look up at God and say, "Why did you do this to me?".

[color=990000][b]So it is with me saying that I don't go to church. Oh yes, I know the "law" says for me not to forsake the assembly but I am compelled to obey the Spirit of God, after all He is the one doing the leading.

I don't expect you to understand any of this.[/color][/b]

Most Sincerely

DT
Quote:
________________________________________
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

7/17/09

[b]My email to you, Deepthinker:[/b]

waltern wrote:
Hello, Deepthinker

I would like to give you some fatherly advice. I am sure that I am old enough to be your father, and maybe old enough to be your grandfather. I have one granddaughter who is 19 years old.

Anyway, the advice the I would give you is to find a good, Bible believing, Bible teaching Church in your area, that relies on the King James Bible. If you need help in finding one, let me know at my email address, and I will do my best to find one for you.
My email address is nagelwalter8@gmail.com

Also, start spending at least one hour a day in “Together Time” with the Lord, each morning, before it is light. Go into a room by yourself, and spend an hour by reading back the Scriptures to the Lord. As you read a verse here are some questions for you to ask the Lord, as you meditate on each verse:

A Promise to claim?

A sin to avoid?

A warning to heed?

Command to obey?

Good example to follow?

Bad example to shun?

New thoughts about God the Father?

New thoughts about God the Son?

New thoughts about God the Holy Spirit?

Fresh insight into the person of Satan?

Freah insight into Satan’s cruel goals?

Fesh insight into Satan’s cruel devices?

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed
(James 1:22, 25.

God bless you, Brother

Walter

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[b]your response to me:[/b]

Quote:
________________________________________

DeepThinker wrote:
Who could argue against that fatherly advice? Thank you.

I spend a lot of time with Him and I do mediate on His word. But we can all spend more time with Him.

[color=990000][b]But I know what your saying and why the advice. [u]"If I am spending all this time with Him and I am mediating on His word, how is that I am getting into error?" I can understand such a question.[/u]

I was seeking Him in prayer and fasting almost 10 years ago when He began to open the word up to me in regards to what I have been spouting. Especially Daniel 9:27. I was about 2 weeks in the fast and believe me brother I had no desire or interest in bible eschatology, in fact I avoided such things because I just wanted to know the LORD. That was my intent when I started the fast, to know Him more intimately.

My brother I would give eschatology up in a moment. As you know I am not educated or old enough or suited to teach such a subject, there are much better qualified men who can do the job far better than I could. But I am compelled to move forward with this, call it a zeal call it error.

But I will seek the LORD again prayer and fasting not to know more about Revelation but to know Him intimately. I never wanted any of this, never!! It's more of a burden, I just want to know the LORD. [/color][/b]

God Bless Brother

In sorrow

Your Brother
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[b]My post to you on 7/20/2009[/b]

waltern wrote:
Deepthinker wrote:

"I don't expect you to understand any of this"

Walter responds:

Yes, I could very well understand what you said "if" (a big IF) the doctrine that you posted was right on. The problem is, it is NEVER right on. What you bring here, on Sermonindex, is another gospel.

Sincerely,

Walter

[b]Your Response to my post, that none of the doctrine that you post ever agrees with Scripture:[/b]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: An Olive Branch

[color=990000][b]Another Gospel?

Them's fighten words brother! (haha)

Another gospel that Paul preached was a mixture of law and grace, to draw the individual under condemnation which we have been freed from by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

Not another gospel my brother, rather a correct interpretation of bible prophecy. What you fail to understand is the language in which God spoke through the prophets concerning Matthew 24 and the Apostles writings and the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ whom John received while he was on the Island of Patmos.

Jesus was born under the law. The things He spoke were in parables and similitude's. Those who heard him didn't understand what He was saying, even the Apostles were left scratching their heads wondering. Jesus spoke like an old testament prophet using figurative language because He was under the law which was still in effect until his sacrifice on the cross.

When Jesus said if your hand offend thee, cut if off. Does He mean to cut your hand off? Does He mean to pluck out your eyes? Does He mean to hate your Father and Mother, when the command says to honour them?

Does He mean to take up your cross a wooden beam? Is Jesus a baby lamb? Is the word of God really a seed that men plant in soil?

Of course not. They all are principles to which we must learn from spiritually.

Jesus said, If your eye be single than is your body full of light. Men are not Cyclops, we don't have single eyes, but He was speaking about something else.

Thus when He spoke about the Sun turning black, He was drawing the same language from the Old Testament prophets used. They said the same things.

I used to believe and teach a post tribulation rapture. I am glad that I don't anymore, there is not word of truth in it. I pray that you'll see it.

Blessings

DT [/color][/b]

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Sincerely,

Walter

Brother Walter, I really don't know why you like to drag me through the mud by exposing AGAIN our "private messages" that we have conversed in private.

I asked the LORD just yesterday, "I wonder if Walter will put all that I said to him in private again", and lo and behold you did.

I am grieved, not over what I said to you in PM, but by your constant badgering by provoking me to go against my own word of not responding to you.

I have placed this before the LORD to deal with.

My response will continue to be, I love you brother. God Bless You.