American Churches

I've been 6 months in this great land of America, and have yet to find a living church. Been to Evangelical, Reformed, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, C&MA, Charismatic, whatever denomination you call it...but almost all of them invariably have no LIFE. The presence of Christ is utterly absent.

The Sunday church service is usually about an hour & a half, at the most 2 hours. The main & only message is usually a powerpoint presentation (what you call a lecture; certainly not a sermon). The speaker is unaware of what they used to call 'divine unction'. He tries to impress with his knowledge of doctrine, and usually fails. There is a terrible smugness in the Reformed churches, sad to say.

The pastors who are from the big seminaries (say, Dallas Theological Seminary) are the ones who know very little about the living Christ. To them Christ is doctrine. They have knowledge in their heads and hardness in their hearts. They are so self-righteous in their 'knowing it all', that it is almost impossible to bring them to repentance.

I say this with deep sadness. I have yet to meet a humble broken preacher or pastor (except maybe one or two in passing). I keep telling Americans: "Have you heard of DL Moody? Harry Ironside? EM Bounds?" Shockingly, few evangelicals have bothered to read their sermons/messages.

The knowledge of the Bible among evangelical Christians in America is abysmal. Many have not read the Bible through even once!

May God have mercy on this nation.

Thank you for responding. I am glad you responded about DTS. I believe that knowledge of doctrine does not translate into 'experience of life'. Those illiterate fishermen (who were Christ's first disciples) had a deeper experience of Christ & life than most seminary-educated graduates of today.
I have seen some of these DTS pastors presiding over what I may call 'dead churches'. And I was deeply saddened. Some of them are in charge of 'prosperous' Reformed-Mennonite churches (what they call Bible Fellowships) in this little state on the East Coast.

I agree that earnest intercessory prayer is needed.
But I am from another part of the globe, and I can say definitely that American evangelism is wishy-washy, and almost totally devoid of the Spirit. I know of instances where American evangelical Christianity has ruined the true work of the Spirit in different parts of the globe, notably, Nepal and East Europe.

Humbly...there is a great malaise afflicting the evangelical churches in America. Perhaps, the seminarians need to spend time in Asia, South America and possibly Africa or the remote isles...before they take up pastoring churches. What is lacking is a deep inward experience of the cross. People are caught up with techniques and formulae, rather than with Christ and His cross. Gal 2.20, Phil 3.10, Phil 1.29 :-(

Thanks, Travis. I appreciate your prayers. I did find a good church in South Jersey, however. Chinese-American. :-)

I don't know what is meant by 'bashing the Bride of Christ'. (Sounds like a cultish phrase; perhaps from the Kingdom Cults? :-) )

I guess you've misunderstood my simple point that I have yet to find a living church in the USA. But I am still trying... :-) With prayer help from Travis & others.

I don't know about 'goats & tares mixed in with sheep & wheat', but aren't you mixing your metaphors?

Too much spiced wine? :-)

I understand what you our going through brother, i have been seeking a true biblical and passionate church for God who our in love with the Lord Jesus more than anything and will do anything for the Lord and a church that wants to separate from the things of this world. I went to a church this past week, i will have to wait to see after a few weeks if it is the one. It is hard after listening to preachers on this site like the ravenhills and reidheads and washers and then go to other churches and be satisfied. But the christian walk is an everyday thing, when we walk out of the church building that is when you really see who loves the Lord. I have found a few believers who had a love for God a 24\\7 love for him, only a few, but i prayed for them, pray for God to show you a true church of his and pray for the churches here. I agree with brother Wayne lets possibly be the ones to bring the passion to them and maybe the Lord will show them what they our missing, maybe it starts with someone just like us to start a fire of the holy spirit, it doesn't have to be a pastor, it can be any believer. The true gospel and the cross is what we need today.

Much of what calls itself "the church" in America is not the real Bride of Christ, it is an institutional, filthy harlot that parades itself as the Bride of Christ while prostituting itself with the things of the world and drinking the wine of the fornication of Babylon and indulging in the forbidden unclean things of Egypt. I am pretty sure that it is this counterfeit bride that procyon is talking about. So when we say "church" we should clarify what we mean. The Lord knows those who are His.

Procyon, if you don't mind me asking, do you mind sharing what country you are from? What is the state of the church like where you are from? What are the evident differences between there and America?

Procyon

The last place one would expect to find a Christian in America is behind a pulpit or in a pew.

There are Christians out there, but they tend not to be in those two places, they prefer to be outside what is considered the 'visible church' with Christ.

Old Joe

Procyon: I appreciated the freshness and spirit of your post. I also read the entire thread and all of the replies. My surprise is that you actually came from a country [ evidently ] where the Holy Spirit was actually manifesting Himself in local assemblies, within the Clergy/Laity model.

I have had the privilege of traveling some, and I do not believe that the malaise that we experience here ..[ in American churches in relation to deadness.. ] is just our problem. I believe that it is Universal. The idea that a professional, and usually singular eldership would be qualified and able to manifest the fullness of Christ in the church is somewhat of a scriptural oxymoron.

The presence of Jesus in the church is given unto the LEAST OF THE BRETHREN, and to ALL, as a HOLY BODY, not dispensed as a power broker unto one man, or a clergy class. EPHESIANS 4 brings this out; that we are one BODY, with one Spirit as one LORD, and are equal in one LOVE.

The MEETING is not the Church. The community is the Church, and meetings happen, following the leading of the community. Yes, they are important; to come together and form a temple where the Lord desires worship unto Him, but a good rule of thumb would be; "WHERE MAN IS IN CONTROL; GOD IS NOT."

This kind of thinking, however, will bring a death-knoll to the SYSTEM, which allows men to profit , and control, as they set themselves up as the rulers , or ministers of the church. This is what Jesus meant in revelation when he said that He hates the TEACHING and the DEEDS of the Nicolaitans....the clergy class....that we have bought into.

I believe we are in upheaval, by the Lord Himself, and are witnessing the demise of the system, and a rebirth of the Bride in purity and brotherhood. This destroys the old, and the spirit of the clergy class, when the least of the brethren are honored in real life, by all, and then and only then can real unity be manifested, along with His presence and approval.

This is universal; not specific, geographically. The "system" has been established world wide, and is being dismantled, world wide, by the Lord himself. May you find fellowship along the way, until He comes. He is building His Temple, one stone at a time, and is uniquely passionate about each member's pureness of heart, to love the body without prejudice, and honor Him alone as he moves, and not man.

My surprise is that you actually came from a country [ evidently ] where the Holy Spirit was actually manifesting Himself in local assemblies, within the Clergy/Laity model.

Let me correct that statement. No, it was not the clergy/laity model. I believe in the Body of Christ which is the Church. We gather around the Lord's Table every week (Sunday) to worship the Lord Jesus Christ and to remember His great sacrifice on Calvary's Cross, and to exalt Him for He is the very 'glory of God'...and His amazing grace is what saves and sustains us in this life. He, in short, is our wisdom, our strength, our very life, our victory, our redemption, our sanctification, our everything. We abide in Him; we rejoice in Him. He is the very center and circumference of reality. He is the REALITY.

The MEETING is not the Church. The community is the Church, and meetings happen, following the leading of the community.

To this statement of BroTom, I say: 'Not forsaking the assembling of yourselves' as it is written in Hebrews.

The presence of Jesus in the church is given unto the LEAST OF THE BRETHREN, and to ALL, as a HOLY BODY, not dispensed as a power broker unto one man, or a clergy class. EPHESIANS 4 brings this out; that we are one BODY, with one Spirit as one LORD, and are equal in one LOVE.

While agreeing that every truly born again believer is a child of God and indwelt by His Spirit, I answer to this quote of BroTom with Eph 4.11,12: "He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry,for the edifying of the body of Christ" God has given certain gifts to the church, apart from gifts to individuals in Christ. We should know our place in the House of God, and take our share in the service in the House of God.

Much of what calls itself "the church" in America is not the real Bride of Christ, it is an institutional, filthy harlot that parades itself as the Bride of Christ while prostituting itself with the things of the world and drinking the wine of the fornication of Babylon and indulging in the forbidden unclean things of Egypt.

Very strong language, and largely true; but I would say that the American church is a dead church. Just dead.

Very strong language, and largely true; but I would say that the American church is a dead church. Just dead.

The first post is very negative and I believe does not reflect the heart of the Lord at all towards His Church. He has people in all of these "churches" and God's heart is for people who know about Him to repent and commit their full lifes to Him.

If God was like us then he would have destroyed us all by now! Reading the book of Jonah might help us. Let us not have a Jonah spirit towards the whole church.

Heartsong:

I'm a visitor to America; been here 6 months. Shall I tell you something? But don't be offended, my dear friend. It's not the congregation. It's the pastors; those trained in the seminaries. I've met some from DTS (that's Dallas, yes!), and I have never met a prouder bunch. They think their knowledge of doctrine is sufficient. I have seen them preside over dead assemblies, giving dead lectures (not sermons). Their prayer meetings are 'non-existent'. I am talking about so-called 'Bible Fellowships'.

Doctrine can have the effect of the letter which kills. You need life. You need prayer. You need burden. You need a heart cry. You need humility. May all those from DTS, Baylor, Nyack, Lancaster, or wherever they are, go spend time in the villages of Asia and learn how to touch God with prayer & brokenness.

Jimmy,

Perhaps you need to listen to Paul Washer, who came back from Peru and lambasted the evangelical church in America.

Greg,

With all humility and compassion, I can tell you that the American Evangelical Church is largely dead, and the seminaries and pastors are chiefly responsible for this malaise (spiritual death). Remember Sardis? There are, of course, a few who are worthy, and shall walk in white.

May the Church in this great country awake before it is too late!

Thank you, windblows.

There are good people in the churches, but the churches In America are largely dead. I have yet to find a 'living assembly'. May be I should go to China or other parts of Asia, Africa and South America. I am still searching.

I have not heard preaching on the lines of DL Moody or Harry Ironside. Nor have I heard prayer on the lines of EM Bounds. There are good people like MacArthur, Piper, maybe Charles Stanley. But overall, the church is a spent force. That is why godlessness is on the increase in this great country.

We need a Jeremiah. Or an Elijah. May God save America!

procyon,

Again part of the problem here is we realy don't know who you are.

Also only been here 6 months? and leaving soon. Well I think you should have been preaching more during those 6 months. If not in the churches then out in the streets. If you have the answers then get out in the field and proclaim them.

lastly several here have been trying to get you to see your shortcomings, your fleshly pride. This should tell you something. there is wisdom in a multitude of counselors.

Again... get out and proclaim,,,not complain.

thingsabove,

I've been preaching and even sharing Christ on the streets of big cities in your country. I've been interacting with christians from different churches, but though some are good people and born again, they remain babes in Christ. I've interacted with pastors and elders and found them sadly lacking in the understanding of the Church as the Body of Christ. They are more loyal to their organization and its policies, than to the divine principles of the faith.

Brother, there is no fleshly pride. It is being shocked that the America of DL Moody and EM Bounds has descended to such a shallow & 'sleepy' level, that America can be termed a Sardis.

yep o.k. well something is not right here. I don't really belive you are from another country. I think your actually living here in America and your just making up your story of being from overseas.

I could be totally wrong about that but I'm putting this out there.

Lastly you have been admonished several times on here.
I think thats enough to see that you are not humble.
Again my opinion.

This will be the last post I do with you "procyn"

I don't really belive you are from another country. I think your actually living here in America and your just making up your story of being from overseas.

Well, that's a lie. I am from overseas. And yes, you're totally wrong about that.

enough to see that you are not humble

I don't know what you mean by that. Being humble doesn't mean that you bury the truth, ostrich-like. I know the truth does tend to shock. I wrote about the abysmal state of the evangelical church in America, and it is for you to ponder over it humbly & prayerfully. Matt 7.21-23.

Lastly you have been admonished several times on here. I think thats enough to see that you are not humble.
Again my opinion.

What do you mean? procyon's humility is monumental. The man stands alone atop a Mt. Everest of humility. Guys like us would need a team of Sherpas to help us attain such lofty heights of humility. Notice the self-effacement evident in procyon's percussive use of the pronoun "I". The man is a Titan of Humility. The rest of us can only look on in awe.

Thanks for the sarcasm. It's better than the 'gnashing of teeth'.:)

And speaking of sherpas, maybe you should try visiting Nepal and checking out the living and godly assemblies there, especially in Eastern Nepal. And PS. there are some underground churches in Bhutan which you might consider visiting. :)

Be blessed!

Because of his view of things, he sees the church of God in America as actually very healthy.

Very healthy????? Maybe you're not aware of these 10 indictments of the American Church by Paul Washer:

A practical denial of the sufficiency of Scripture.
An ignorance of the character and attributes of God.
A failure to address man's depravity.
An ignorance of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of regeneration.
An unbiblical gospel presentation and invitation.
An ignorance regarding the nature of the Church.
A lack of loving church discipline.
A silence on separation (holiness).
Psychology and sociology have replaced the Scriptures in regard to the family.
A departure from the faith by heeding to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons.

Thank you, Leo. I'm sorry if my Sad and Disappointing Experience 'disappointed' so many folks here. But KPY went to the extent of projecting even a rotten movie called 'Slumdog Millionaire' just to further his ends. His entire Sunday message was a slick presentation of GFA and had nothing to do with Christ as such. But I will not press the point further. You can understand my anguish!

I accept your advice, and will not trouble you folks further with my indictment of the American evangelical church. It is truly sad that my search for a 'living assembly' (on a New Testament pattern) has resulted in fruitless visits to so many churches in this country. Perhaps I have been singularly unfortunate.

I know that you have written your post, Leo, with prayer and I am praying too. Instead of American churches going out and giving the gospel to the rest of the world, perhaps it would be good if they overcome their racist & seminary bias and welcome gospel preachers from other parts of the world too, preferably Asia & Africa.

God bless you and may you be a source of strength and blessing to many.

In Christ

Procyon

Procyon is saying something that many of us have been sharing. Now, he threw in one of this site's favorite's which may have clouded the issue, but the notion that the churches are dead and that the Lord presence has departed is perfectly in line with what I see going on. Brother Yun made similiar statements at the end of his book "Heavenly Man." (Also see Brian Long's sermon in Wales, on this site)

It is hard for Americans, I believe, to consider the possibility of this. No one likes to look in the mirror. Yet it is a fact, that when I was in Bible school, a missionary Bible school, when American missionaries who had been gone for years came back on furlow, many of them were shocked at what they found and could not wait to get back to the "field," mainly because of their children.

Another thing to consider, and perhaps avoid falling in the same trap, is how the prophets of old were treated. Many of them were hated simply for telling the people that they were in a bad state. Telling people about their state is not about condemnation, its about reconcilliation. How can one be healed if they do not know they are sick?........brother Frank

HI Maryjane, you write.........

"my issue is the lack of love that he seems to have in what he is saying."

That may be something procyon should consider. There are many people doing many things Maryjane. There are movements and gatherings all over the country and the world. Right here on this site we have advertized a prayer meeting every Tuesday night for the last couple of years to pray for these very issues. I would also say that the revival conferences that brother Greg arranges every year is also something that is being done, Then there is the group, broken before the throne who are also doing great work. All of these are people who may share many of the views of procyon. Now I would call many of these peolpe the "Remnant," which some may have issue with. Yet I would encouarge all to go back and listen to all of the sermons from this last conference in Wales, for me it was the most prophetic conference to date. These guys brought words from the Lord and addressed many of the issues we are talking about.

As for the whole issue of asking for money on a Sunday, well I am more in the Hudson Taylor camp. I could be wrong, but I believe that God does not need to beg for money for His own ministries. If you come to this country trying to raise money, it may be harder to deliver a word the Lord would want you to deliver. This very problem besets many American pastors. To bite the hand that feeds you is difficult. Consider if a Pastor has been married before, it would be very difficult for him to preach on the evils of divorce(this is an analogy, please no debate here on divorce:) Well, if a Pastor takes a healthy pay from his congregants, it may be harder to preach on the evils of materialism and so on. The Apostle Paul would have had way more freedom to say whatever he had to say because he was a "tentmaker." Hence he wrote two thirds of the NT.............Frank

We, the American church, along with the entire world, have slidden into a state of apostasy, or near apostasy. This is no secret, nor does it take a spiritual giant to discern it. It is obvious, even to the babes who just boarded.

Once this fact is established, does slashing and burning the chaff really constitute helpful ministry? This is my problem with the tenure this thread has advanced in. It's one thing to identify the problems we have, as a man like Paul washer has done, with his 10 indictments, with an effort to bring repentance, or to hold REVIVAL conferences that might lead us back to the purity of the Gospel. It is another altogether to just expose the dirt, with no effort, or ability to clean it up.

Remember, the church is made up of struggling individuals, just like you and me, who may be at a different intervention with the Lord, than you are I. Remember the Words of our Lord Jesus;

"A smoking wick HE will not extinguish, ans a bruised reed he will not break!" He has compassion on those on the journey, that will meet together as the Holy and pure Bride. For now, complete Holiness is only in Heaven.

I look at it this way. The holy and pure elected church is in Heaven, and members of HER are scattered, like grains of salt throughout many, many churches and venues. They are in the reformed churches, with all of her traditions and legalistic codes, the Baptists, the Pentecostals, the evangelical, right along side with home groups and independents......throughout the Earth. There are many, many of this Bride who are not churched at all, and maybe with the TWOS and THREES that Jesus spoke of. They are all just as precious to the Lord as the other.

We are all in transition and surely will become pure and spotless as OVERCOMERS, and where we are now, is not where we will be. All of us are flawed, yet to be perfected. This does not mean that some things that are wrong, must not be acknowledged, and rectified. They definitely MUST be dealt with, just as Jesus identified them, and the apostles did.

However, the Holy spirit always has and always will corral the error into Life, for repentance sake, and RESTORATION. This is what revival is all about, not just the destruction part, the wrong part. This is the spirit of what ministry really is, as we wash one another's feet, and love each other through. Sadly, there is also a sign near the sheep gate that reads, "NO WOLVES ALLOWED."

We need Godly, unprofessional shepherds who will heed the call to lay their lives down for the flock, as Jesus did.

Have you visited every single church in America to make this statement(That American churches are just dead?)

I don't have to drink the whole cup of coffee (Dunkins, Macdonalds, Wawa or otherwise) to know that it is bad. A couple of sips should tell. :)

We, the American church... have slidden into a state of apostasy, or near apostasy. This is no secret, nor does it take a spiritual giant to discern it. It is obvious, even to the babes who just boarded.

Thank you, sir, for that statement of truth, and for referring to me (albeit indirectly) as a 'babe who just boarded'.

I thought even the senior members (and moderators) were all still students in the school of Christ. Friend, it would take eternity to 'learn Christ'*! Phil 3.10; Eph 4.20.

But I don't mind being referred to as a babe. Though not a babe in Christ. :)

PS. *There is a difference between 'learning about Christ' (which American seminaries & preachers are experts on) and 'learning Christ'.

We need godly, unprofessional shepherds who will heed the call to lay their lives down for the flock, as Jesus did.

The problem with the 'professional' and 'unprofessional' shepherds is that they know very little about the flock. Either the shepherds are wolves in sheep's clothing or most of the flock has been infiltrated by wolves who masquerade as sheep. I know that most congregrations in American evangelical churches are NOT 'regenerate' (if I may use that term!) (Or is it a problem in this highly liberal state that I am here on the Eastern seaboard?)

.if you dont have a church good enough for your holiness:start one and it is not that hardto do...done it a few times

Heavens, what kind of strange creature are you? And do you go around starting churches or 'planting them' (American-style) just like that? 'Done it a few times'???? "Every plant not planted by the heavenly Father shall be rooted up."

Do you really know what the Church is? You need to study the Book of Acts for starters.

I personally do not agree with procyon whole take on Sunday being the Lords day and attendance based fellowship as being a must on Sunday.

Do I take it that you do not agree with the practice of believers gathering together to worship the Lord around His table (call it Holy Communion, if you like) every Sunday (the first day of the week)?

'Not forsaking the assembling of yourselves' is an injunction to the local churches given in the Book of Hebrews. And I believe it has been the practice of believers to gather for corporate worship since the days of Acts of the Apostles. Unless we have some new cult springing up among the house fellowships here in America...
which does not believe in corporate worship or assembling (gathering) of believers.

HI brothertom, some good thoughts,

I wonder, if we could go back 400 years ago, what the arguments were amongst those who genuinly believed that Luther should stay with the "Church," and try and reform it rather than break away from something so polluted that it could not be reformed. I think history has proven that the reformers, at least in their breaking away from the established church, was, although dramatic and scary, was correct.

Now, is there a genuine debate today as to whether the evangelical church can be reformed? Yes. Is it possible that it is so polluted that it is beyond reform, as the Catholic church was? I believe that the answer to that question is yes, very possibly. If that were the case, would it be a simple thing to have another "reformation?" No, I think it would cost many peolple everything that they know and have known for centuries, just like it must have cost the reformers............Frank

The church of Jesus Christ in America is not dead. But she is very unpopular, she is low and despised and found outside the gates the city. There are very few who truly find her, but those who do quickly realize that concrete walls and bulletin-boards and pastorate powerplays have about as much to do with her as the concept of time in eternity.

You ended with a fine flourish there. Though it is disturbing to read emotional fluff about the 'Bride of Christ'. I asked the Presbyterian church secretary in Philly about Finney; she never heard of him. I phoned up Back to the Bible about Theodore Epp's booklets; they said he was passé. Even Moody Bible Institute in Chicago never heard of the Moody Colportage Library once popular around the world. Sad, indeed.

You know after reading your posts I think I am just going to pray for you. You come across as having no love for those who you say are in the dead church in america.

Thank you for praying for me. I appreciate that.

I did previously ask what are you actively doing in caring, sharing, praying for and reaching out to the lost while you are here??

I think I've done my bit in caring, sharing, praying for & reaching to the lost here in my 6 month stay in America. But I am not going to elaborate on that. Thanks for the
'God bless'. God bless you too.

by procyon on 2009/12/26 11:48:15

Quote:

"We, the American church... have slidden into a state of apostasy, or near apostasy. This is no secret, nor does it take a spiritual giant to discern it. It is obvious, even to the babes who just boarded."
Brothertom
Procyon reply:

"Thank you, sir, for that statement of truth, and for referring to me (albeit indirectly) as a 'babe who just boarded'.

I thought even the senior members (and moderators) were all still students in the school of Christ. Friend, it would take eternity to 'learn Christ"*! Phil 3.10; Eph 4.20.

I really did not have you in mind at all, Procyon, when I made the statement about the obvious departure of the American Church from the Lord; nor did I nor do I consider you a "Babe" in Christ. I have no criteria to do so, other than your brief post, which I find interesting and relevant.

I simply point out that we have , as a church, endured a humiliating tsunami of charlatans and wolves the last 30 years, from Robert Tildon to Todd Bentley, and the hideous Word of Faith TYPE vultures that have cloaked their greed in fleece to rob the simple through "SEED FAITH", THAT IT IS OBVIOUS TO ALL; Even and especially the World. This, combined with a general deadness and religious spirit that accompanies it, is a clear picture to even the babe in Christ. Mostly, we do not have a body, but a corpse.

My senior point is that we must see the church, the real one, as a body in transition, and there are many, many of us travelling a pilgrimage OUT, that will not fit into traditional slots. We must see the church in transition. No one really knows how she will look when we coagulate, but the Lord is watching how we will respond. Can we be nurturers and a strength?...while we yet acknowledge the error? This was the ministry of Jesus, and the Apostles, and ought to be our goal.

humiliating tsunami of charlatans and wolves the last 30 years, from Robert Tildon to Todd Bentley, and the hideous Word of Faith TYPE vultures

I agree that there are hordes of such rapacious wolves & foxes. And you can include the whole stream of charismatic charlatans from Benny Hinn to Joel Osteen (lumping in Joyce Meyer, if you like). But don't you think it is the self-righteous arrogance of the doctrine-specialists from DTS and other seminary-schools who are responsible for the entire 'charismatic reaction'? I thought the Reformed Church was one of the better churches, but their nauseating self-righteousness left my stomach churning. It is those whose 'letter kills' who are responsible for the Charismatic Apostasy.

My senior point is that we must see the church, the real one, as a body in transition

procyon to jimp

Heavens, what kind of strange creature are you? And do you go around starting churches or 'planting them' (American-style) just like that? 'Done it a few times'???? "Every plant not planted by the heavenly Father shall be rooted up."

Do you really know what the Church is? You need to study the Book of Acts for starters.

Brother jimp has been on SI for a long time, and only very slowly, in tiny snippets, has he revealed parts of his testimony which hint at a wealth of long experience in Christ. Humbly, I recommend you [i]learn[/i] from him, whatever you may.

As for coming together and breaking bread to worship the Lord this to can be done daily as it was in the Book of Acts. They met daily from house to house and shared the love of Jesus with one another.

I hear there are heresies among the house churches, and there are Two Big Wolves called Frank Viola and Gene Edwards who are preying on unsuspecting sheep. If you don't believe me, ask Denny Kenaston and his group (Charity Ministries) in Lancaster, PA.

Don't hate me for what I said. I appreciate 'Heartbeat of the Remnant' for their masterful exposé of Viola and Edwards.

"The church of Jesus Christ in America is not dead. But she is very unpopular, she is low and despised and found outside the gates the city. There are very few who truly find her, but those who do quickly realize that concrete walls and bulletin-boards and pastorate powerplays have about as much to do with her as the concept of time in eternity.' ..... Paul West

Good word Paul.

Well, mj, I must thank you for the 4 smileys and the Greetings and God bless. (My smileys are not working!)

Well, I was just warning you about two subtle wolves, Viola and Edwards, who are 'playing around' with the house churches.

I am glad that you agree that we should come together for corporate worship. Yes, it need not be in a socalled church building. :) On Christmas Day we gathered in a SeventhDay Adventist school! (Talk about the Lord's sense of humour!):)

jimp, when everyone keeps responding to him he will continue to wear people down. He has been exhorted, several times, and so if we stop responding to him it may help him to actually think on what he has been exhorted to do.

murrcolr, true...but in the case of procyon ,several including our elder moderators have discerned rightly that he lacks charity...the clanging cymbols are so loud!!!!

in the case of procyon ,several including our elder moderators have discerned rightly that he lacks charity...the clanging cymbols are so loud!!!!

To those who are spiritually deaf, what is actually the sound of a trumpet blowing out the truth loud and clear seems to be like the clanging of cymbals. May God give us a spiritual ear!

I am sorry to have disturbed the sleep of 'the saints in Sardis', oblivious of those who make merchandise of the word of God and those who bring in damnable heresies. Rev 16.15.

You are very nasty under the veneer of religiosity Mr procyon.

amen murrcolr.........Frank

The entire tone of this thread is getting bad. I personally do not want the discussion forums to be a personal pulpit for people who are not "even" known at all to any of us to be a place for them to "trumpet" that the Church of American is dead and the presence of God has left.

So I would ask that the initiator of this thread please do not post similar threads again. I am going to lock this thread because of alot of the confusion and debating it is causing.

The site of sermonindex.net is to cater hope for the Church of Jesus Christ and not to tell everyone to leave churches. So please brothers and sisters may we have hope for a "genuine revival" that will bring live back into assemblies, churches, meeting places for the glory of God.