question about tithing and fellowship with the ungodly

Hi bible4life.

I know a lot of believers think tithing is right, but I believe it is not 'law' for the New Covenant believer. No where do you see tithing for believers in the NT. It is now giving with a thankful and joyful heart. It seems strange to me that the only OT law people want to keep in the church is tithing. Could it be because it pays the salary of the 'proffesional' clergy!
Those who hold to tithing try and convince us that it was pre-law using Hebrews 7:9-10 about Melchizedek, but this is not there to teach us tithing, but about Jesus' preisthood being greater than the Levitical.

We should be giving freely (not under compulsion) to those in need and missions as the Lord puts it on our heart. If we do not have much money, we should make it our first aim to do all we can to provide for our families and not be a burden on others and then as we get more to bless others with our surplus.

Regarding mixing with unbelievers, we need wisdom. I think Zac Poonen's point is that we should not seperate ourselves in a superior way thinking we are 'holier than thou'. But the bible clearly teaches us:

Blessed is the man
Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,
Nor stands in the path of sinners,
Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;
Psalm 1:1

God Bless you.

Either the LAW was fulfilled in Christ, or it wasn't. It was not partially fulfilled.

Paul writes this concerning the law.

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Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Rom 7:25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
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The law of God is holy and just. What must be clear is that through the leading of the Spirit we who obey will fulfill the law of God. If we disobey the Spirit, we are still in bondage to the law of sin and death. The law of God is given so that we all know that we fall short of the glory of God. It is by the power of Christ who sends the Holy Spirit to circumsize our hearts in order that we might fulfill the law of God.

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Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
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Christ will not lead us in the power of the Holy Spirit to disregard what God has set forth in the Law and the Prophets. Tithing is a precept which God established. If you search carefully you will find that tithe is meant for the feeding of those who care for the flock, orphans, widows, and those who are in need. The tithe is also used to finance the feasts amongst the fellowship.

In Christ
Jeff

The law of God is holy and just. What must be clear is that through the leading of the Spirit we who obey will fulfill the law of God. If we disobey the Spirit, we are still in bondage to the law of sin and death. The law of God is given so that we all know that we fall short of the glory of God. It is by the power of Christ who sends the Holy Spirit to circumsize our hearts in order that we might fulfill the law of God.

Tithing is a precept which God established.

Do we keep the feasts? No. Why? Because they are fulfilled in Christ. He is our passover etc.

With love.

Absolutely it is a PRINCIPLE.

I would not say that it is "a principle" but more accurately a precept according to Scripture. If you read Dueteronomy 14 and 15 one will find God's financial system. Look closely to where God declares the tithe should be spent. The tithe is to spent for specific purposes. In the NT, if you search the Scripture, one will find that we are still to tithe for these specific purposes.

So keep the priciple, which is to give out of a cherful heart motivated by love. Love FULFILS the law. But do not tithe because you think it is a law!

The church at Penetcost shared because of what the Spirit of God accomplished in their hearts. Many today will look to that generation and say that their economic system failed. But of course we know differently.

In Christ
Jeff

I'm with Krispy on this one.

rookie wrote:

In the NT, if you search the Scripture, one will find that we are still to tithe for these specific purposes.

The church at Penetcost shared because of what the Spirit of God accomplished in their hearts. Many today will look to that generation and say that their economic system failed. But of course we know differently.

Just as paying the tithe was emphasised under the old covenant, presenting our bodies to God is what is emphasised in the new covenant. Tithing was meant to be a type, just like the Passover lamb and the Sabbath day. The lamb was a type of Christ, and the Sabbath was a type of the inward rest that Christ gives us. These Old Testament rituals were all shadows of what was finally fulfilled in Christ (as Colossians 2:16,17 makes crystal clear).

Concerning tithing, God had said, "The purpose of tithing is to teach you always to put God first in your lives" (Deut.14:23-Living Bible). Under the old covenant, they offered their tithes to prove that God was first in their lives. In the new covenant, we present our bodies to God and thus prove that He is first in our lives.

What does it mean to offer our bodies? It means giving our eyes to God so that we never use them for ourselves again. Is that easier or is it easier to give 10% of your income to God? You know that it is far easier to give 10% of our income each month to God than to keep our eyes pure each day of that month. That is why preachers teach tithing more than keeping our eyes pure. Many pastors are lovers of money and they want their congregation to tithe so that they can become rich from those tithes. Since there is no justification at all for tithing in the new covenant, they use this verse in Malachi to frighten ignorant believers into paying their tithes every month.

Then how much money should we to give for God's work? Only what we can give cheerfully – for God does not love those who give money under pressure, or who give in order to get something from Him (See 2 Cor.9:8). First give your body to the Lord and then give whatever money you want to give cheerfully, but never as an obligation and certainly not out of fear. I hope this understanding of God's Word liberates you from false teaching.

Reference:http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/word_for_the_week.php?display=12_01&year=08

It is amazing to me how many churches there are that preach grace and practice law.

Mike

Whose money (or for that matter, time, resources, etc.) is it anyway? We tithe at our house, not because of Law, but because of Love. But let's certainly not stop at the tenth part - should not every cent belong to the Lord, and dispensed in ways to bring Him glory! As a pastor who receives no salary (we have employment through which the Lord provides for our physical needs), and who tithes - I never preach on tithing. You can get whole groups of people who might give 10% of income, and NEVER yield their hearts (legalism). On the other hand, the heart that is yielded to Christ seeks to give Him ALL!

The Lie of Tithing

Matt.23:23,24 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint, and anise, and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgement, mercy, and faith: these ye ought to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides! which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Here we have the only occasion in the New Testament where Our Lord tells anyone to pay tithes. Those who teach that Christians must pay tithes refer to this verse as the proof that Our Lord Jesus Christ established the continuance of the Mosaic Law of Tithing for His Church. These modern TITHE-TEACHERS then go on to define TITHING for their congregations: 10% of everything you get.

These TITHE-TEACHERS are liars. The following facts will be established in this article.

The Mosaic Law of Tithing was never 10% of everything you get.

The Temple (now considered to be the church-house) did not receive all of the tithes that were given by the Israelites.

Tithing was neither commanded nor observed in the early church.

Tithing as a covenant of prosperity is effective only for those who seek to be justified by the Law.

Those who demand 10% of everything you get, are identified with the Scribes and the Pharisees, who were the historic enemies of Christ.

THE MOSAIC LAW OF TITHING WAS NEVER 10% OF EVERYTHING YOU GET

Deut.14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

The ancient Israelite calculated and paid his tithes only once per year, after the harvest. During the year, he bought and sold, exchanged his labour for other men's goods, and his goods for other men's labours; on none of this income did he pay any tithes. All year long, he and his family ate of the increase of the land and of the livestock. What he consumed in the course of the year was not recorded and added to his total harvest for the purpose of calculating his tithes. If he went fishing and caught ten fish in the middle of the year, he ate them all; he didn't save one of them to the end of the year in order to pay tithes on his fish. If he received some gold or silver in an inheritance, he was not required to pay tithes on his inheritance. It is simply ludicrous to propose that the Israelites were required to keep careful records of everything they got during the year, in order to make sure that they paid exactly ten percent of "everything they got" as a tithe.

The Israelite was not commanded to tithe on everything he obtained and used throughout the year, but only on his increase at the end of the year. The same thing is true with a business in that a certain amount of the income is consumed in maintaining the operation. It is notable how the modern tithe teachers expect the ordinary working man to fork over 10% of his every paycheck before his bills or his taxes are paid.

Tithes were only calculated and paid once per year in the Hebrew nation. All year long the farmer ate of the produce of his land, and used that produce to run the business of his farm. At the end of the harvest, tithes were calculated. The rich farmer who employed 20 herdsmen and 20 field hands did not get to take any more "deductions" than the poor farmer who had no employees. The yearly tithe was a simple calculation against the increase of the field at harvest time and the total herd of livestock on hand. This calculation did not include certain capital expenditures which effectually reduced the amount of the tithe. For example: a farmer has 70 sheep, and 30 sheep are born during the year, so he now has 100 sheep: but he needs an ox to plow his fields, so he trades 30 sheep for one ox. At the end of the year, he only pays tithes on 70 sheep, and he gets to keep his ox. The tithe of the livestock was always calculated against the total herd on hand, but only once per year, and there was an exception made for the poor: If a man started off with 10 sheep; 3 sheep were born in the course of the year, and he ate 4 adult sheep, he now has only nine sheep. If he still had only nine sheep at the end of the year, he was not required to give one of those sheep to the Lord as a tithe, even though he ate 4 sheep (Lev.27:32). The Mosaic law of tithing was never 10% of everything you get.

THE TEMPLE (now considered to be the church-house) DID NOT RECEIVE ALL OF THE TITHES THAT WERE GIVEN BY THE ISRAELITES.

Num.18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the Lord, even a TENTH part of the tithe. 28 Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the Lord of all your tithes which ye receive of the children of Israel, and ye shall give thereof the Lord's heave offering unto Aaron the priest.

As a matter of fact, the priests of the Temple did not receive any tithes directly from the people at all. Only the Levites were entitled to receive tithes, and they paid a tithe of the tithe to the priests. Thus, the priests and the temple only received ONE TENTH of the tithes! The bulk of the support of the priests and the Temple came from the other offerings that were commanded under the law.

Deut.14:23 And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which He shall choose to place His name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.

Who is eating the tithe? Not the Levite, not the priest! In Israel, every family was expected to make it to Jerusalem once per year to visit the Temple. Some of their tithes were used to defray the expenses of the trip and may have been used to make the other offerings that were commanded separately under the Law. They were eating and drinking from their own tithes! This is further confirmed in the verses that follow:

Deut.14:24-26 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set His name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee;
Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household.

The tithes were used to finance the family pilgrimage to Jerusalem once per year. Not only were they not paying tithes on "everything they got", but they were consuming some of the tithes themselves!

Deut.14:27-29 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee. At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shall lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat, and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

Tithing in ancient Israel was income tax. Whatever they consumed in the course of the year did not have to be included in the calculation, and once every three years the ENTIRE tithe was given to the local Levites and the poor people in their own town. The Levites functioned as magistrates and school teachers in the villages in which they resided, so the tithe of the third year was given for the support of the local judiciary, and the funding of health, education, and welfare.

Only once every three years does it say that the ENTIRE tithe was given away, and in that case, NONE OF IT was brought to the Temple: but to the Levites and the poor people in their own towns. This is reiterated in Deut. 26:12 and Amos 4:4. It is very difficult to come up with an exact set of figures on who got how much of the tithes in the end; but one thing is sure: the Temple in Jerusalem was not collecting 10% of the total income of the people, and at least 1/3 of the tithes were given to support education and poor people in their own community. How anyone with an honest mind can take the Mosaic Law of Tithing and come up with, "10 cents out of every dollar that passes through your hands belongs to the local church", eludes me.

The doctrine of tithing, as it is taught and received by many Christians today, is a LIE: it is a fabrication by clergymen, a holdover from Romanism. It cannot be found in, or defended from the Law of Moses. Many have ignored and misrepresented the Bible, and lied to you about this.

TITHING WAS NEITHER COMMANDED NOR OBSERVED IN THE EARLY CHURCH

2Cor.9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

The epistles are full of discussions about giving for the support of evangelists(sent ones or apostles)ers,orphans,true widows, and the poor: but no where do any of the Apostles ask for tithes or remind anyone to pay tithes. And, how can it be said that a man is not giving of necessity if he is obeying a LAW of tithing? How can it be said that a man is not giving of necessity, if he is convinced that he will be cursed with poverty if he fails to pay those tithes? Certainly, if the Apostle Paul thought he was authorized and obliged to demand tithes, he would have brought it up in 1 Corinthians chapter nine, where he asserts that he has a right to receive financial support! Why doesn't Paul remind them that they are obliged to pay those tithes, and that he has a right to receive those tithes?

As to the only time the New Testament records Our Lord telling anyone to pay tithes; if this was understood as a command to the Church,how come it is never reaffirmed by any of the Apostles?

Jesus, in Matthew 23:34, is addressing the Pharisees, not His own disciples, and He calls the concern about tithing a gnat. And yet, to the tithe collectors of Apostate Christendom, the gnat IS the camel.

Heb.7:1 For this Melchisidec, King of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all;. . . 4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

In Genesis chapter 14, Abraham goes out to rescue his nephew Lot, who along with many others has been kidnapped. The kidnappers had ransacked the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah where Lot lived, and were on their way back to their own cities. Abraham took 318 servants with him,and rescued Lot's family. He also took from the kidnappers all the loot they had obtained during their raids. After restoring the personal property of the residents of Sodom, he gave 10% of the loot to Melchisidec. This time, and this time only, are we ever told that Abraham pays tithes to anyone. There is no mention that he went home to round up 10% of the goods he had there. We are nowhere told that Abraham ever paid tithes on any of his income again.
The purpose of Hebrews chapter 7 is not to establish a law of tithing, but to show how Jesus Christ was foreshadowed in symbols and figures throughout the Old Testament.

The antiquity of a practice does not make it a law for The Church, for circumcision also pre-dates The Law of Moses (John 7:22, Gal.5:2).

Have you given up everything for Christ?

Is all you have His?

Is your life and lifestyle a living example of such?

TITHING AS A COVENANT OF PROSPERITY IS EFFECTIVE ONLY FOR THOSE WHO SEEK TO BE JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW.

Luke.17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

The doctrine of tithing as it is taught in Apostate Christendom today teaches the promises of prosperity from the Old testament. The most popular verse that is used to substantiate the doctrine of tithing for prosperity is Malachi 3:10.

Mal.3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

This verse says that if you will faithfully pay your tithes that you will be prospered. The problem is, you are not allowed to pick and choose which Old Testament laws that you want to recieve and which you want to ignore. The same promises are attached to the other laws as well (Deut.12:28, 28:1- 6, Lev. 26:3-6).

As soon as you bind yourself to any promise that is connected with obedience to the Law, you have entered the covenant of the Law.

James.2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Yet these tithe teachers think to teach that you can ignore the whole law except to obey in one point! Tithing was part of the civil code that governed the nation of Israel. Only the Levites were allowed to collect the tithes. Tithing is not a part of the Ten Commandments, is no where commanded to The Church, and was neither taught nor practiced in Christendom until the the latter part of the 6th century.

Tithing is a part of God's covenant with the Jews only.

Jer.31:31,32 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers...

Jesus said, The Law and the prophets were until John (Luke 16:16). In other words the covenant of The Law, as it was affirmed by the prophets, was ended at the appearing of John the Baptist.

Gal.5:3 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

I know that tithe teachers and tithe payers will not SAY that they are justified by the law, and will insist that their faith is in Christ. However, the Apostle Paul has it that any attempt to be justified in any one point by the law is to fall from grace. Circumcision is the subject in Galatians chapter 5, but circumcision is only a part of that ONE LAW. The tithe payer attempts to justify himself in this one respect: that he has given to God "His cut", and so is justified by obedience to the law in this one matter. It's no different than those who insisted on being circumcised! They were not insisting on a wholesale return to the entire law of Moses; just this one point. The Apostle Paul says:

Gal.5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
And so it is with the tithe payer who justifies his actions on the basis of the Old Covenant. He has FALLEN FROM GRACE.

Hear this again:

Gal.3:19 For as many as are of the works of the law, are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

You simply cannot sneak into the Old Testament and think to jerk one rule out of it to take advantage of. You are under the curse if you do, and you better perfectly perform the rest of the law as well, or you will end up cursed. This is no small matter to God.

Listen to the Apostle Paul:

Phil.3:8,9 Yea, doubtless, and I count all things but loss, for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ. And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Whatever it is that you count as your righteousness, is that from which you take your confidence towards God. If you feel like you have settled the money question with God by paying tithes, you have come under the curse: you have your own righteousness. The true and obedient disciple of Our Lord Jesus Christ is careful to not let his left hand know what his right hand doeth in matters of giving. He also knows that except a man forsake ALL that he hath, he CANNOT be Christ's disciple (Luke 14:33). He is not in any way entitled to the selfish and personal use of the rest of his money just because he paid God His "cut".

In Luke 17:10,our Lord has dispelled any illusions that we may have about God owing us something because we did what we thought was our duty in some small and singular matter. Any notion that God owes us prosperity in exchange for tithing is utterly repudiated by one statement from the Apostle Paul:

Rom.11:35 Or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

This statement not only condemns tithing for prosperity, but every other doctrine of "give to me and God will give to you" that the false prophets of Apostate Christendom love to propound.

Listen again to the Apostle Paul:

1Tim.6:7-10 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and clothing, let us be therewith content. But they that will be rich, fall into temptation, and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil; which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Jesus is the mediator of a BETTER covenant, which was established on BETTER promises (Heb.8:6); but the Law of Moses promises long life, good health, prosperity, and power over all enemies to those who will obey it (Deut.28:1-13)

The promises of The New Testament include most of these things, but they are offered as a reward for FAITH, and THEY INCLUDE ETERNAL LIFE. The righteousness that imbues one with eternal life is of a different quality than that which was obtainable through some relative performance of The Law of Moses. Those who take their security from some relative performance of The Law of Moses have fallen from grace.

Listen to what the Lord says about King Saul:

1Sam.8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the Lord will not hear you in that day.

And why is it that these people were willing to put up with all of King Saul's abuses?

1Sam.8:7 And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee (Samuel), but they have rejected Me (God) that I should not reign over them.

They will put up with their King Saul, and pay him his 10%, because it's easier to do that, then it is to grapple with these words of Jesus Christ: Sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me (Luke 18:22).

Luke 18:11,12 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself: God, I thank Thee that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican:
I fast twice in the week, I GIVE TITHES OF ALL THAT I POSSESS.

Godly Companions

"I am a companion to all who fear You—to all who follow Your precepts." Psalm 119:63

In the above verse we have a description of God's people according to the course of their lives and conduct. They are a people marked by two things: fear and submission, the latter being the fruit of the former. Regenerated souls obey God conscientiously out of reverence to His majesty and goodness, and from a due regard of His will as made known in His Word. The same description is given of them in Acts 10:35, "In every nation he who fears God and works righteousness is accepted with Him." It is a filial fear which is awed by God's greatness, and is careful not to offend Him, which is constrained by His love and is anxious to please Him. Such are the only ones fit to be a Christian's "companions."

A "companion" is, properly speaking, one whom I choose to walk and converse with in a way of friendship. Inasmuch as the companions we select is an optional matter, it is largely true that a person may be known by the company he or she keeps; hence the old adage, "Birds of a feather flock together." Scripture asks the searching question, "Can two walk together but except they be agreed?" (Amos 3:3). A Christian, before his conversion, was controlled by the Prince of darkness and walked according to the course of this world (Ephesians 2:2,3), and therefore did he seek and enjoy the company of worldlings. But when he was born again the new nature within him prompted new tastes and desires—and so he seeks a new company, delighting only in the saints of God. Alas, that we do not always continue as we began.

The Christian is to have good will toward all with whom he comes in contact, desiring and seeking their best interests (Galatians 6:10). But he is not to be yoked to (2 Corinthians 6:14) nor have any fellowship with (Ephesians 5:11) those who are unbelievers, nor is he to delight in or have delight toward those who despise his Master. "Should you help the ungodly, and love those who hate the Lord?" (2 Chronicles 19:2).

Would you knowingly take a viper into your bosom? "The wicked is an abomination unto the righteous" (Proverbs 29:26).

So said David, "Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD, and abhor those who rise up against you? I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies." (Psalm 139:21, 22). That holy man could not be confederate with such. Evil company is to be sedulously avoided by the Christian, lest he become defiled by them. "He who walks with wise men shall be wise; but a companion of fools shall be destroyed" (Proverbs 13:20). Nor is it only the openly lawless and criminal who are to be shunned—but even, yes especially, those professing to be Christians yet who do not live the life of Christians. It is this latter class particularly against which the real child of God needs to be most on his guard: namely, those who say one thing and do another; those whose talk is pious—but whose walk differs little or nothing from the ungodly. The Word of God is plain and positive on this point: "Having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them!" (2 Timothy 3:5). This is not merely good advice—but a Divine command which we disregard at our peril.

In selecting your "companions" let not a pleasing personality deceive you. The Devil himself often poses as "an angel of light," and sometimes his wolfish agents disguise themselves in "sheep's clothing" (Matthew 7:15). Be most careful in seeing to it that what draws you toward and makes you desire the companionship of Christian friends—is their love and likeness to Christ—and not their love and likeness to you. Shun as you would a deadly plague—those who are not awed by the fear of God, that is, a trembling lest they offend Him. Let not the Devil persuade you that you are too well established in the faith to be injured by intimacy with worldly "Christians"! Rather "follow righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart" (2 Timothy 2:22).

"Do not be deceived: Bad company corrupts good character" (1 Corinthians 15:33). Evil companionships "corrupt." All evil is contagious, and association with evildoers, whether they are "church members" or 'open infidels', has a defiling and debasing effect upon the true child of God. Mark well how the Holy Spirit has prefaced His warning: "Do not be deceived." Evidently there is a real danger of God's people imagining that they can play with fire without getting burned. Not so! God has not promised to protect us when we fly in the face of his danger signals. Observe too the next verse which is inseparably connected with the one to which we have directed attention.

"Awake to righteousness and sin not: for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame" (1 Corinthians 15:34). The word "awake" signifies to arouse as from a torpor or state of lethargy. It is a call to shake off the delusive spell that a Christian may company with Christless companions without being contaminated by them. "And sin not" in this respect. To cultivate friendship with religious worldlings Is SIN, for such "have not the knowledge of God". That is, they have no experimental acquaintance with Him, His fear is not on them, His authority has no weight with them. "I speak this to your shame." The child of God ought to be abashed and filled with confusion that he needs such a word as this.

"I am a companion to all who fear You—to all who follow Your precepts." Such are the only "companions" worth having, the only ones who will give you any encouragement to continue pressing forward along the "Narrow Way." It is not those who merely pretend to "believe" God's precepts, or profess to "stand for" them—but those who actually "keep" them. But where are such to be found these days? Ah, where indeed! They are but "few" in number (Matthew 7:14) one here and one there. Yes, so very "few" are they that we are constrained to cry, "Help, O Lord, for the godly are fast disappearing! The faithful have vanished from the earth!" (Psalm 12:1).

It is indeed solemn to read the words that immediately follow the last quoted scripture and find how aptly they apply to and how accurately they describe the multitude of godless professing "Christians" all around us: "they speak vanity everyone with his neighbor, with flattering lips, with a double heart do they speak" (v. 2). Note three things about them:

First, they "speak vanity" or "emptiness." Their words are like bubbles, there is nothing edifying about them. It cannot be otherwise for "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks" (Matthew 12:34). Their poor hearts are empty (Matthew 12:44). So their speech is empty too.

Second, they have "flattering lips," which is the reason why they are so popular with the ungodly. They will seek to puff you up with a sense of your own importance, and pretend to admire the "much light" you have.

Third. they have a "double heart." They are vainly seeking to serve two masters: (cf. 2 Kings 17:32, 33).

"I am a companion to all who fear You—to all who follow Your precepts." There is a very real sense in which this is true even where there is no outward contact with such. Faithfulness to God, obedience to His Word, keeping His precepts, companying only with those who do so, turning away from everybody else—has always involved a lonely path. It was thus with Enoch (Jude 14). It was thus with Abraham (Isaiah 51:2). It was thus with Paul (2 Timothy 1:5).

It is the same today. Every city in the land is filled with "churches," —but where are those who give plain evidence that they are living in this world as "strangers and pilgrims" and as such abstaining "from fleshly lusts which war against the soul"? (1 Peter 2:11) But thank God, though the path of faithfulness to Him is a lonely one, it brings me into spiritual fellowship with those who have gone before. We are to walk by faith and not by sight—and faith perceives that walking with Christ "outside the camp" (Hebrews 13:13) necessarily brings into communion with "all" His redeemed, be they on earth or be they in heaven. Thus the apostle John in his lonely exile on Patmos referred to himself as "your brother and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 1:9). Yes, Christian reader, for a little while it means companionship "in tribulation," but, praise God it will not mean enduring the throes of the swiftly-approaching portion of Christless professors left behind when Christ comes for His own! ( 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12). For a little while it means companionship in "the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ," soon it will be in the kingdom and glory of Christ. May Divine mercy so enable us to live now that in that Day we shall receive His "Well done! Good and faithful servant!" (A.W.P.)

Savannah,

Great exegesis on the law of tithing! Thanks for the detailed explanation of what tithing really is.

The point about circumcision is good. The tithe teachers always point to the fact that tithing pre-dates the law, but so does circumcision, but I don't hear them say we should all get circumcised!

bible4life, first I think an important consideration which no one mentioned (only because it is not the point of the thread)is that your friend isn't committed to a fellowship of believers. Not the first person, we want to take advice from.

As for tithing, I think it is important for believers to practice. There is almost a false dichotomy set up between following commands of the Law and expecting to be justified by your adherence to it. One can do one without doing the other. For example, this logic:

And, how can it be said that a man is not giving of necessity if he is obeying a LAW of tithing?

This makes no sense. What commands of God would a Christian follow then? Which commands of the New Testament do we follow? Only the ones we cheerfully desire too? Of course not. Remember when Christ went through the Ten Commandments in Matthew 5 and saying it was about the heart? He never nullifed the requirements but only took them a step farther. He was saying if your spirit is in order, you will fufill the letter and more. Of necessity? No, because it's your genuine desire as a new creation in Christ.

I'm sure all would say that Christians should give, and if a Christian didn't they were in the wrong. Why? Either because A)They are not following a command (whether an Old Testament or a New Testament one that seemingly takes the Old Testament one's legalistic place in a more noble, grace-filled way) or B)They weren't acting as new creations (falling into the myth of carnal Christianity where anything goes).

An interesting note is the Didache, while not considered inspired but nevertheless highly respected as an accurate historical document, shows that the early Church did practice tithing.

Personally, I think it is also a good precept to practice it teaches us to have that New Testament lifestyle of giving. Because if anything, under the New Covenant we are to give more.

'"He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none. And he who has food, let him do likewise" (Luke 3:11). That's 50% not 10%.

Zacchaeus stood and said, "Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor" (Luke 19:8). Again 50%.

Jesus said to the rich young man, "If you would be perfect, go sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come follow me" (Matthew 19:21). That's 100%.

"So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:33). Again 100%.

"A man said to him, 'I will follow you wherever you go.' And Jesus said to him, 'Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head'" (Luke 9:57f.).

"All who believed were together and had all things in common; and they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need" (Acts 2:44f.).

"There was not a needy person among them for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles' feet" (Acts 4:34f.).

"In a severe test of affliction their abundance of joy and their extreme poverty have overflowed in a wealth of liberality on their part. For they gave according to their means . . . and beyond their means" (2 Corinthians 8:2, 3).

The best way that I know how to capture the spirit of the New Testament generosity is simply to say: the issue is not, How much must I give? but, How much dare I keep? Not: Shall I tithe? But: How much of the money that I hold in trust for Christ can I take for my private use? The financial issue in the church today is not tithing, but exorbitance of life-style. The question is not can I afford to tithe, but can I justify the life-style that consumes 90% of my income? And behind that is the question: Do I love to use God's money to spread justice and mercy and spiritual hope in the world, or do I prefer to embezzle his money to purchase more and more personal comfort?'

The above in quotes excerpted from a John Piper message.

So do we tithe as though under the Law? No we begin with tithing as under grace that we may learn to give like the New Testament teaches.

*Edited for spelling and added content because no posts were made*

Giggles quotes John Piper:
The financial issue in the church today is not tithing, but exorbitance of life-style.

I liked most of what you quoted John Piper as saying except for the guilt trips and emotionalism which Jesus never stooped to by the way!

Every man according as he purposed in his heart, [i]so let him give[/i]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: [b]for God loves a cheerful giver.[/b]
2 Cor 9:7

Paul didn't say God loves a "cheerful tither;" no, he said a cheerful giver. Please don’t take me wrong and if you have been paying tithes for years, I’m not saying you will not be blessed, you will! God blessed me. If you choose to keep doing that, I’m not trying to convince anyone to not pay tithes; at least you are giving to something.

My point is that the Law of the Old Testament never addresses the condition of a man’s heart or his attitude toward anything even giving. It was based on pure obedience whether you agreed with it or not. Not to pay a tenth according to cheerfulness!

Jesus brought the New Covenant to us and it goes beyond mindless obedience to our motives (1 Cor 10.6), our intent (Heb 4.12), and our thoughts (2 Cor 10.15). The O.T. is “thou shalt not commit adultery.” Jesus comes along and tells them that to even LOOK upon a woman lustfully is as the sin of adultery. He cuts to the chase!

I give, just not to an institutional church, even though this is the New Covenant, I believe that not giving is NOT an option!

I use to attend a church and the tithe was all ways apart of the teaching. There were times when the entire time was spent in asking for money. The head pastor owned two houses, and several cars. He was living very well while many of the people he was telling that they had to give that 10% every month were coming to the food bank just to fed their children. literally millions of dollars were collected and used to fund building projects. I remember the last time that we attended he was asking for money, he even went on to tell people if they did not have the cash they could sign over cars, use credit cards, or if they had other properties they could sign them over. I left feeling really sad. I just could not understand how someone who said they belonged to Jesus would want to put that kind of bondage on people???

Took me a long time to understand what it means to give, thanks to the Lord I now do so with much love and joy in my heart.

in Him
ebeth

Where is this in the NT applying to believers post pentecost?

Paul writes...

....................................................................................................................
1Cr 9:9\tFor it is written in the law of Moses, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain." [fn] Is it oxen God is concerned about?

1Cr 9:10\tOr does He say [it] altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, [this] is written, that he who plows should plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should be partaker of his hope.
.................................................................................................................

Paul uses the OT Scriptures to teach that the church is responsible for the care of those who care for the flock. He directly applies the OT Scriptures to our time after Pentecost. For he writes, "...For our sakes, no doubt, {this} is written,..."

Paul continues on....

........................................................................................................
1Cr 9:13\tDo you not know that those who minister the holy things eat [of the things] of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of [the offerings of] the altar?

1Cr 9:14\tEven so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.
................................................................................................................

Again Paul clearly points to the OT for our direction to support those who preach the gospel.

Paul also teaches this same precept when speaking of the elders within the church.

................................................................................................................
1Ti 5:17\tLet the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.

1Ti 5:18\tFor the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain," [fn] and, "The laborer [is] worthy of his wages." [fn]
...............................................................................................................

Again Paul points to the OT Scriptures specifically and declares that this precept is valid after Pentecost.

But this is only part of the support that NT believers are called to with regards to the church and those outside the church.

Do any NT Scriptures come to mind that are the same found in Dueteronomy 14 and 15?

In Christ
Jeff

I liked most of what you quoted John Piper as saying except for the guilt trips and emotionalism which Jesus never stooped to by the way!

His few words remained faithful to the numerous scriptures posted above them. Surely he cannot be considered an emotionalist for that? As for the guilt trip I think that repeating the Lord's commands encourage and challenge the believer not guilt them.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Jeff asserts in his post,

Quote: "...Paul clearly points to the OT for our direction to support those who preach the gospel...
Paul also teaches this same precept when speaking of the elders within the church."

Indeed Paul clearly is teaching by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in 1 Cor. 9:14 that 'the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.'

No doubt, Apostles(sent ones)of God, preaching,proclaiming,heralding the Gospel of the Kingdom of God are to have our(christians)financial support and care.

Both Timothy and Titus traveled with Paul on many of his missionary journeys. They may not have been chosen Apostles to the same degree as Paul yet they were itinerant preachers. They were evangelists of the same proportion as Paul was on that level.

It is absolute that they were not merely stationary elders in a specific local body. There is a great distinction between their(Timothy and Titus) role in the gifts and calling of God and the elders in a local body of believers. One such distinction being that each able bodied elder in a local congregation was to work with his own hands to provide for his own house. To think otherwise would be foreign not only to the culture but also to God's people as they were familiar with His Word regarding hard work and laboring with their hands to support their own.

I'd equate the modern perversion of ministerial positions and the pastorate with the american welfare system.

Surely we would do well to give to support the poorer in our congregations,the widows and single moms. May God give us wisdom and merciful correction here as He has been abundantly patient with such foolishness which goes on in His House.

Therefore, your reasoning Jeff, when you continue by saying 'Paul also teaches this same precept when speaking of the elders within the church' is faulty, and 'not rightly dividing the Word of Truth'.

Paul's reference in 1 Cor 9:13 Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat [of the things] of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of [the offerings of] the altar?, is certainly not to be understood as apostate Roman Catholicism has interpreted it, and consequently has ordained a priesthood of the same order, blaspheming the LORD Himself upon every one of their cursed altars where they make their abominable sacrifices.

The most holy things in the tabernacle of the congregation were the responsibility of the Levitical Priesthood. These men were to live upon the tithes of the people as they were not to own anything for themselves as other men. They were a special class of men dedicated to this service by the command of God. (Rome has substituted this with their own model in their apostate sacerdotal system).

That system of shadows and types has long passed.

Num 4:1-4 And the LORD spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying, Take the sum of the sons of Kohath from among the sons of Levi, after their families, by the house of their fathers; From thirty years old and upward, even until fifty years old, all that enter into the host, to do the work in the tabernacle of the congregation. This shall be the service of the sons of Kohath in the tabernacle of the congregation, about the most holy things.

The word work in verse 3 above is the hebrew word

mel-aw-kaw'

From the same as H4397; properly deputyship, that is, ministry; generally employment (never servile) or work (abstractly or concretely); also property (as the result of labor): - business, + cattle, + industrious, occupation, (+ -pied), + officer, thing (made), use, (manner of) work ([-man], -manship).

The word service in verse 4 above is the hebrew word

ab-o-daw',

From H5647; work of any kind: - act, bondage, + bondservant, effect, labour, ministering (-try), office, service (-ile, -itude), tillage, use, work, X wrought.

H5647

aw-bad'

A primitive root; to work (in any sense); by implication to serve, till, (causatively) enslave, etc.: - X be, keep in bondage, be bondmen, bond-service, compel, do, dress, ear, execute, + husbandman, keep, labour (-ing man), bring to pass, (cause to, make to) serve (-ing, self), (be, become) servant (-s), do (use) service, till (-er), transgress [from margin], (set a) work, be wrought, worshipper.

The Levites of the Levitical Priesthood were the wage workers of God's ceremonial Law of Israel.

Such Law has been abrogated.

Re: Elders

Exodus 3:18 And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.

Exodus 12:21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.

Exodus 17:5-6 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go on before the people, and take with thee of the elders of Israel; and thy rod, wherewith thou smotest the river, take in thine hand, and go. Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

Exodus 18:12 And Jethro, Moses' father in law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God: and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses' father in law before God.

Exodus 19:7-8 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Exodus 24:1 And he said unto Moses, Come up unto the LORD, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off.

Exodus 24:9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:

Question: Were the 'elders of Israel' wage workers who were paid a salary?

Numbers 11:16,17,24-30 And the LORD said to Moses, Gather to me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them to the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee. And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou mayest not bear it thyself alone...

And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them around the tabernacle. And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spoke to him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it to the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that when the spirit rested upon them; they prophesied, and did not cease. But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them, and they were of them that were described, but went not out to the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp. And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp. And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord, Moses, forbid them. And Moses said to him, Enviest thou for my sake? I would that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that
the LORD would put his spirit upon them. And Moses withdrew into the camp, he and the elders of Israel.

Luk 10:1,17 After these things, the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city, and place, whither he himself would come... And the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject to us through thy name.

The number seventy is representative of all the elders of God's choosing. None of them are wage workers who are paid a salary.

John 10:12,13 But he that is a hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth, and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

The word hireling in verses 12 and 13 above is the greek word mistho¯tos (Strong's #3411)

mis-tho-tos'

From G3409; a wage worker (good or bad): - hired servant, hireling.

Strong's #3409 misthoo¯

mis-tho'-o

From G3408; to let out for wages, that is, (middle voice) to hire: - hire.

Strong's #3408 misthos

mis-thos'

Apparently a primary word; pay for service (literally or figuratively), good or bad: - hire, reward, wages.

The following is from History of the Christian Church by Philip Schaff:

J.B. Lightfoot begins his valuable discussion on the Christian ministry with this broad and liberal statement: "The kingdom of Christ, not being a kingdom of this world, is not limited by the restrictions which fetter other societies, political or religious. It is in the fullest sense free, comprehensive, universal. It displays this character, not only in the acceptance of all comers who seek admission, irrespective of race or caste or sex, but also in the instruction and treatment of those who are already its members. It has no sacred days or seasons, no special sanctuaries, because every time and every place alike are holy. Above all it has no sacerdotal system. It interposes no sacrificial tribe or class between God and man, by whose intervention alone God is reconciled and man forgiven. Each individual member holds personal communion with the Divine Head. To Him immediately he is responsible, and from Him directly he obtains pardon and draws
strength."

"It is certain that the officers of the apostolical or of any subsequent church, were not part of the original institution of the Founder of our religion; that of Bishop, Presbyter, and Deacon; of Metropolitan, Patriarch, and Pope, there is not the shadow of a trace in the four Gospels. It is certain that they arose gradually out of the preexisting institutions either of the Jewish synagogue, or of the Roman empire, or of the Greek municipalities, or under the pressure of local emergencies. It is certain that throughout the first century, and for the first years of the second, that is, through the later chapters of the Acts, the Apostolical Epistles, and the writings of Clement and Hermas. "The episcopate (Bishoprick or Pastorate) was formed,not out of the apostolic order by localization, but out of the presbyterial by elevation; and the title, which originally was common to all, came at length to be appropriated to the chief among them."

It is certain that in no instance were the apostles called ’Bishops’ in any other sense than they were equally called ’Presbyters’ and ’Deacons.’ It is certain that in no instance before the beginning of the third century the title or function of the Pagan or Jewish priesthood is applied to the Christian pastors .... It is as sure that nothing like modern Episcopacy existed before the close of the first century as it is that nothing like modern Presbyterianism existed after the beginning of the second. That which was once the Gordian knot of theologians has at least in this instance been untied, not by the sword of persecution, but by the patient unravelment of scholarships."

The idea and institution of a special priesthood, distinct from the body of the people, with the accompanying notion of sacrifice and altar, passed imperceptibly from Jewish and heathen reminiscences and analogies into the Christian church. The majority of Jewish converts adhered tenaciously to the Mosaic institutions and rites, and a considerable part never fully attained to the height of spiritual freedom proclaimed by Paul, or soon fell away from it. He opposed legalistic and ceremonial tendencies in Galatia and Corinth; and although sacerdotalism does not appear among the errors of his Judaizing opponents, the Levitical priesthood, with its three ranks of high-priest, priest, and Levite, naturally furnished an analogy for the threefold ministry of bishop(pastor),priest(elder),and deacon, and came to be regarded as typical of it. Still less could the Gentile Christians, as a body, at once emancipate themselves from their traditional notions of priesthood, altar,and sacrifice, on which their former religion was based. Whether we regard the change as an apostasy from a higher position attained, or as a reaction of old ideas never fully abandoned, the change is undeniable, and can be traced to the second century. The church could not long occupy the ideal height of the apostolic age, and as the Pentecostal illumination passed away with the death of the apostles, the old reminiscences began to reassert themselves.

In the apostolic church preaching and teaching were not confined to a particular class, but every convert could proclaim the gospel to unbelievers, and every Christian who had the gift could pray and teach and exhort in the congregation. Compare Acts 8:4; 9:27; 13:15; 18:26, 28; Rom. 12:6; 1 Cor. 12:10,28; 14:1-6,31. Even in the Jewish Synagogue the liberty of teaching was enjoyed, and the elder could ask any member of repute, even a stranger, to deliver a discourse on the Scripture lesson (Luke 4:17; Acts 17:2). The New Testament knows no spiritual aristocracy or nobility, but calls all believers "saints" though many fell far short of their vocation. Nor does it recognize a special priesthood in distinction from the people, as mediating between God and the laity. It knows only one high-priest, Jesus Christ, and clearly teaches the universal priesthood, as well as universal kingship, of believers.1 Pet. 2:5, 9; 5:3; Rev. 1:6; 5:10; 20:6.

I add a passage from Hatch’s; Bampton Lectures on The Organization of the Early Christian Churches (1881), p. 139: "In earlier times there was a grander faith. For the kingdom of God was a kingdom of priests. Not only the ’four and twenty elders’ before the throne, but the innumerable souls of the sanctified upon whom ’the second death had no power,’ were ’kings and priests unto God.’ Only in that high sense was priesthood predicable of Christian men. For the shadow had passed: the reality had come: the one High Priest of Christianity was Christ." It does this in a far deeper and larger sense than the Old; in a sense, too, which even to this day is not yet fully realized. The entire body of Christians are called "clergy" (klh'roi a peculiar people, the heritage of God.

The Apocalypse emphatically teaches the universal priesthood and kingship of believers. The apostles themselves never claim or exercise a special priesthood. The sacrifice which all Christians are exhorted to offer is the sacrifice of their person and property to the Lord, and the spiritual sacrifice of thanksgiving and praise. In one passage a Christian "altar" is spoken of, in distinction from the Jewish altar of literal and daily sacrifices, but this altar is the cross on which Christ offered himself once and forever for the sins of the world.

After the gradual abatement of the extraordinary spiritual elevation of the apostolic age, which anticipated in its way the ideal condition of the church, the distinction of a regular class of teachers from the laity became more fixed and prominent. This appears first in Ignatius, who, in his high episcopalian spirit, considers the clergy the necessary medium of access for the people to God. "Whoever is within the sanctuary (or altar), is pure; but he who is outside of the sanctuary is not pure; that is, he who does anything without bishop and presbytery and deacon, is not pure in conscience." Yet he nowhere represents the ministry as a sacerdotal office. The Didache calls "the prophets" high-priests, but probably in a spiritual sense. Clement of Rome, in writing to the congregation at Corinth, draws a significant and fruitful parallel between the Christian presiding office and the Levitical priesthood, and uses the expression "layman" (lai>ko" a[nqrwpo") as antithetic to high-priest, priests, and Levites. This parallel contains the germ of the whole system of sacerdotalism. But it is at best only an argument by analogy.

Tertullian was the first who expressly and directly asserts sacerdotal claims on behalf of the Christian ministry, and calls it "sacerdotium," although he also strongly affirms the universal priesthood of all believers. Cyprian (d. 258) goes still further, and applies all the privileges, duties, and responsibilities of the Aaronic priesthood to the officers of the Christian church, and constantly calls them sacerdotes and sacerdotium. He may therefore be called the proper father of the sacerdotal conception of the Christian ministry as a mediating agency between God and the people. During the third century it became customary to apply the term "priest" directly and exclusively to the Christian ministers especially the bishops.

In the same manner the whole ministry, and it alone, was called "clergy," with a double reference to its presidency and its peculiar relation to God. It was distinguished by this name from the Christian people or "laity." Thus the term "clergy," which first signified the lot by which office was assigned (Acts 1:17, 25), then the office itself, then the persons holding that office, was transferred from the Christians generally to the ministers exclusively.

Solemn "ordination" or consecration by the laying on of hands was the form of admission into the "ordo ecclesiasticus" or "sacerdotalis." In this order itself there were again three degrees, "ordines majores," as they were called: the diaconate, the presbyterate, and the episcopate-held to be of divine institution. Under these were the "ordines minores," of later date, from sub-deacon to ostiary, which formed the stepping-stone between the clergy proper and the people.

Thus we find, so early as the third century, the foundations of a complete hierarchy; though a hierarchy of only moral power, and holding no sort of outward control over the conscience. The body of the laity consisted of two classes: the faithful, or the baptized and communicating members, and the catechumens, who were preparing for baptism. Those church members who lived together in one place, formed a church in the narrower sense.

With the exaltation of the clergy appeared the tendency to separate them from secular business, and even from social relations-from marriage, for example-and to represent them, even outwardly, as a caste independent of the people, and devoted exclusively to the service of the sanctuary. They drew their support from the church treasury, which was supplied by voluntary contributions and weekly collections on the Lord’s Day. After the third century they were forbidden to engage in any secular business, or even to accept any trusteeship. Celibacy was not yet in this period enforced, but left optional. Tertullian, Gregory of Nyssa, and other distinguished church teachers, lived in wedlock, though theoretically preferring the unmarried state. Of an official clerical costume no certain trace appears before the fourth century; and if it came earlier into use, as may have been the case, after the example of the Jewish church, it must have been confined, during the times of persecution, to the actual exercises of worship.

With the growth of this distinction of clergy and laity, however, the idea of the universal priesthood continued from time to time to assert itself: in Irenaeus, for example, and in an eccentric form in the Montanists, who even allowed women to teach publicly in the church. So Tertullian, with whom clerus and laici were at one time familiar expressions, inquires, as the champion of the Montanistic reaction against the Catholic hierarchy: "Are not we laymen priests also?"138 It is written, he continues: "He hath made us kings and priests (Rev. 1:6). It is the authority of the church alone which has made a distinction between clergy and laity. Where there is no college of ministers, you administer the sacrament, you baptize, you are a priest for yourself alone. And where there are three of you, there is a church, though you be only laymen. For each one lives by his own faith, and there is no respect of persons with God."139 All, therefore, which the clergy considered peculiar to them, he claimed for the laity as the common sacerdotal privilege of all Christians.

The clergy, according to the precedent of the Old Testament, came to be more and more rigidly distinguished, as a peculiar order, from the body of the laity. The ordination, which was solemnized by the laying on of hands and prayer, with the addition at a later period of an anointing with oil and balsam, marked the formal entrance into the special priesthood, as baptism initiated into the universal priesthood; and, like baptism, it bore an indefeasible character (character indelebilis). By degrees the priestly office assumed the additional distinction of celibacy and of external marks, such as tonsure, and sacerdotal vestments worn at first only during official service, then in every-day life. The idea of the universal priesthood of believers retreated in proportion, though it never passed entirely out of sight, but was from time to time asserted even in this age. Augustine, for example, says, that as all are called Christians on account of their
baptism, so all believers are priests, because they are members of the one High Priest.The progress of the hierarchical principle also encroached gradually upon the rights of the people in the election of their pastors. But in this period it did not as yet entirely suppress them. The lower clergy were chosen by the bishops, the bishops by their colleagues in the province and by the clergy.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 surely can not be interpreted to mean that an elder is a wage worker who is paid a salary.

According to this verse an elder is deserving of two-fold(double) honor or esteem of that of a dignitary for their labor. The labor not of a wage worker but of one who is fatigued and wearied by painstaking studiousness in the Word of Truth that he may be equipped to instruct, rightly dividing the same.

A double salary is certainly not what Paul had in mind here as he is instructing Timothy. The very name Timothy is derived from the word honor (tee-may')used in verse 17 and theos which is the word used for God.

Timotheos meaning dear or valuable to God. Such was Timothy to Paul who calls him his own son in the faith(1 Tim 1:2). In no wise would Paul instruct this dear son of his to do otherwise than he himself did. He set himself as the example not charging for the Gospel ministry and said to be an imitator of himself. Follow me as I follow Christ.

Note: 'Preaching and teaching' in verse 17 is an unwarrantable translation. The word translated as preaching is the word logos. If Paul had preaching in mind he'd have used kērussō, euaggelizō, euaggelion, or kērugma, which are all synonomous with the heralding or proclamation of the coming of Messiah, and repentance and faith toward Him for salvation. Preaching is the call of the evangelist as He heralds God's Gospel to the world abroad. While teaching is the common lot of elders and the men in the local congregation(body of believers).

May men cease from twisting the scriptures to fit the mold of their own making. Building ecclesiastical kingdoms to their own names robbing God of the Glory due his Name. Making the body a business and consequently producing a prostitute out of His bride the church.

Very thorough and thought provoking, though I tend to feel the same way about a lot of the things you say Savannah, You make it way bigger, and more to be considered. I will have to do some serious study about this. Thanks for posting.

Great quotes bible4life. I'll save some of these. I found this account of John Wesley to be both inspiring and fitting:

Take John Wesley for example. He was one of the great evangelists of the 18th Century, born in 1703. In 1731 he began to limit his expenses so that he would have more money to give to the poor. In the first year his income was 30 pounds and he found he could live on 28 and so gave away two. In the second year his income doubled but he held his expenses even, and so he had 32 pounds to give away (a comfortable year's income). In the third year his income jumped to 90 pounds and he gave away 62 pounds. In his long life Wesley's income advanced to as high as 1,400 pounds in a year. But he rarely let his expenses rise above 30 pounds. He said that he seldom had more than 100 pounds in his possession at a time.

This so baffled the English Tax Commissioners that they investigated him in 1776 insisting that for a man of his income he must have silver dishes that he was not paying excise tax on. He wrote them, "I have two silver spoons at London and two at Bristol. This is all the plate I have at present, and I shall not buy any more while so many round me want bread."

When he died in 1791 at the age of 87, the only money mentioned in his will was the coins to be found in his pockets and dresser. Most of the 30,000 pounds he had earned in his life had been given away. He wrote,

I cannot help leaving my books behind me whenever God calls me hence; but in every other respect, my own hands will be my executors.

In other words, I will put a control on my spending myself, and I will go beyond the tithe for the sake of Christ and his kingdom. (Quotes from Mission Frontiers, Sept./Oct. 1994, nos. 9-10, pp. 23-24.)

from desiringgod.org

I don't know how much relevance this has to the exact topic of the thread, but I thought I would share it all the same. It's a testimony from Zac Poonen:

"I remember, when I was working in the Navy, a believer in our local church approached me one day for a loan. I knew that God's Word said, "Give to him who asks of you and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you" (Matt.5:42). The man told me that he would return the loan the very next month. So I gave him what he wanted. But the next month he could not return the loan and asked for some more. I earned a large salary, lived very simply and did not have a family. So I had plenty of money to spare. I gave him some more money - and once again the next month, when he asked me again. A little later, this man backslid and began to drink and waste his money. When I saw that, I told him that if he had money to give to the devil like that, he might as well return my loan, so that I could give that money back to the Lord. He became very angry with me and told me that I was harassing him. So I stopped asking him to return my loan.

"I then went to the Lord and asked Him where I had gone wrong. He showed me my mistake. The Lord told me, "You treated that money as if it were your own. It was actually Mine. You should have consulted Me before giving it, even as a loan." If someone had given me ten thousand rupees to keep safely, and you, knowing about it, came and asked me for a loan from that money, I would have told you that I would have to ask the owner of the money before giving you the loan, for it was not my money. But I did not do that in the above case, because I did not recognise that my money was the Lord's. If I had actually forsaken all (to the Lord), as Jesus commanded (Luke 14:33), then I would have told that man that all that I had was the Lord's and that I had to consult the Lord about it. But instead, I mechanically obeyed the letter of Scripture and thus lost some of the Lord's money. Even the devil quoted a verse to Jesus once. I should have compared Scripture with Scripture."

Nice brother Paul. Powerful testimony. Thank you.

Hello Bible4live,

I an quite amazed that only Krispy picked this up. Get out of debt asap!!!. When you are in debt you are someone elses slave. As a debtor you have no freedom in your use of money. I do not think God will be pleased if you give Him the money that you owe someone else.

Let's say someone borrows money from you and when you ask for repayment, the same person says he has given it to God. Would you not be upset? You may even think this guy is a hypocrite.

Do absolutely everything to get out of debt first and then your cheerful giving will be accepted. God will help you for sure if you clearly pursue this.

Of course you can do good things for those in need, but if you had the choice of of delivering pizza or do unpaid voluntary work in a homeless shelter, I believe God would be more pleased if you delivered pizza to repay your debt.

Krispy wrote:

If the NT believer was to tithe... the NT would not absolutely silent on it. The only place where tithing is mentioned in the NT was during Jesus' ministry BEFORE He died and rose again. The Law was not fulfilled yet.

Actually, the NT is not totally silent on the issue of tithing. Tithing is used as the example to illustrate how the old covenant (or the Law) was taken away and a new covenant established. See Hebrews Chapter 7. Hebrews does not teach us to tithe, but rather uses tithing, of all things, to make the point that Christ comes to establish a different, a better covenant. I find it interesting that the church in general has taken the one part of the law that Paul used to illustrate the change in covenants and retained it as, often, the one part of the old covenant we still must keep.

The term tithe does not mean "give". It means "tenth". If you wish to give a tithe (give a tenth), you may do so. But don't do it grudgingly, "Well, I HAVE to give this or God won't bless me, so here goes", nor out of necessity, "Well I have to, it is God's law", but rather do it because you have purposed in your heart to bless God and further the work of His kingdom on this earth by giving ten percent.

But to tithe because you feel it a commandment is to place yourself back under the law that Christ freed you from. Giving liberally, generously, hilariously (check it out in the Greek), is absolutely a NT precept. Tithing from duty to the law of God is, in my opinion, NOT a NT precept, principle, or any other word you want to use for it. I think I agree with Krispy, the verses in Malachi are not applicable to a NT believer.

Travis

I was curious as to how the NT only people view scriptures like Ps. 1:2 "But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night." Or the love of the Law described in Ps. 119 or many other parts of the Bible.

What does Law mean here? Just God's word in general when read through this lense?

What does Law mean here? Just God's word in general when read through this lense?

We have to understand that the 'Law' of God (and I mean the moral law) has always existed as it reflects His nature and will. So this is why the law is not done away with, but fulfilled in us who walk by the Spirit. If we walk by the Spirit of God we will fulfil His law because God (His Spirit) can only do that which is in accordance with His nature. Problem is we do not walk by the Spirit all the time!

This is different from specific laws for the nation of Israel under the Old Covenant, such as the ceremonial laws and laws concerning the priesthood and sacrificial offerings. As I said in an earlier post, you would not say we should get circumcised, but recognise this is now fulfilled in a much fuller sense in the circumcision of hearts. Likewise the sacrifices of bulls and goats have been fulfilled in the sacrifice once and for all in our Saviour Jesus Christ. So why take another of these laws that was specifically for Israel and try and say it is binding to Christians? Granted the 'spirit of this law still applies (as has been explained already very well by others here) and that we keep if we walk by the Spirit.

Edit:

I was curious as to how the NT only people view scriptures like Ps. 1:2

savanna wrote:

In the apostolic church preaching and teaching were not confined to a particular class, but every convert could proclaim the gospel to unbelievers, and every Christian who had the gift could pray and teach and exhort in the congregation. Compare Acts 8:4; 9:27; 13:15; 18:26, 28; Rom. 12:6; 1 Cor. 12:10,28; 14:1-6,31. Even in the Jewish Synagogue the liberty of teaching was enjoyed, and the elder could ask any member of repute, even a stranger, to deliver a discourse on the Scripture lesson (Luke 4:17; Acts 17:2). The New Testament knows no spiritual aristocracy or nobility, but calls all believers "saints" though many fell far short of their vocation. Nor does it recognize a special priesthood in distinction from the people, as mediating between God and the laity. It knows only one high-priest, Jesus Christ, and clearly teaches the universal priesthood, as well as universal kingship, of believers.1 Pet. 2:5, 9; 5:3; Rev. 1:6; 5:10; 20:6.

While all saints are equal in the church and in the sight of the Lord, not all saints are called to a stewardship by the Lord through the Holy Spirit.

Num 4:1-4 And the LORD spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying, Take the sum of the sons of Kohath from among the sons of Levi, after their families, by the house of their fathers; From thirty years old and upward, even until fifty years old, all that enter into the host, to do the work in the tabernacle of the congregation. This shall be the service of the sons of Kohath in the tabernacle of the congregation, about the most holy things.

The word work in verse 3 above is the hebrew word

mel-aw-kaw'

From the same as H4397; properly deputyship,

As you have noted above, the "work" assigned to the sons of Kohath is properly understood to be "deputyship" Paul often writes about the stewardship given him by our Lord. This is what Paul writes about how our Lord builds His church.

.............................................................................................................
Eph 4:11\tAnd He Himself gave some [to be] apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

Eph 4:12\tfor the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
................................................................................................................

These who are truly called by our Lord are those who have received a "deputyship" or a "stewardship" from the Lord. These are those whom the Lord has set aside for the "equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ."

It is these whom the Lord has set aside for Himself, these are to receive our "material" support.

We cannot disregard this truth just because we may be surrounded by hirelings. This idea of hirelings is not only present after Pentecost but was also existed prior to Pentecost.

...............................................................................................................

Isa 56:10\tHis watchmen [are] blind, They are all ignorant; They [are] all dumb dogs, They cannot bark; Sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.

Isa 56:11\tYes, [they are] greedy dogs [Which] never have enough. And they [are] shepherds Who cannot understand; They all look to their own way, Every one for his own gain, From his [own] territory.

Isa 56:12\t"Come," [one says], "I will bring wine, And we will fill ourselves with intoxicating drink; Tomorrow will be as today, [And] much more abundant."
...............................................................................................................

I am not supporting the idea that we are required to give our entire tithe to the local church. Nor should the entire tithe go for wages. If you look to the precept of tithing established by our Lord, the shepherds are supported by the material that the Lord has given us. But if one looks closely, the support of those the Lord has assigned "work" to this is only maybe a third of what the tithe is to be spent on.

..................................................................................................................
Deu 14:26\tAnd you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.

Deu 14:27\tYou shall not forsake the Levite who [is] within your gates, for he has no part nor inheritance with you.

Deu 14:28\t"At the end of [every] third year you shall bring out the tithe of your produce of that year and store [it] up within your gates.

Deu 14:29\tAnd the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the stranger and the fatherless and the widow who [are] within your gates, may come and eat and be satisfied, that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.
...............................................................................................................

Many mention "do you keep the feasts?" We should. The church of Pentecost continually met breaking bread, singing psalms, learning the doctrines, and praying together. Who paid for all the food that this fellowship of believers consumed?

Likewise, if one looks closely to the portion of the tithe given to the poor and needy, every third year the entire tithe went to support this group. So in reality a third of the tithe in a year went to help those less fortunate.
The church of Pentecost shared all things in common, giving to those in need among them.

This precept is part of God's moral law.

In Christ
Jeff

That is a wrong! What do you mean by NT only? Because those of us do not accept we are under the Law of tithing, does NOT mean we are NT only. I take the whole word of God as valid to us and read the OT just as much as the NT. Do you keep the feasts? Do you bring the prescribed offerings as described in Leviticus? Do you eat Kosher food? If not then are you NT only?!

Not what I meant Heydave. I should have been more specific. I meant as far as command-wise, which you did a great job of answering.

P.S. As for circumcision, I am in favor of it, not for justifying purposes though.

Giggles wrote:

I was curious as to how the NT only people view scriptures like Ps. 1:2 "But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night." Or the love of the Law described in Ps. 119 or many other parts of the Bible.

I think HeyDave did a good job of answering the question. I would like to add a bit to it if I may.

In several passages in the NT and in my mind specifically in the book of Hebrews we find that the old covenant has been done away with and the new covenant established. In Hebrews we find reference to testaments, which are the same thing as covenants. Basically our Bible then is divided into what happened under the old covenant or testament, and what happened to bring in the new covenant or testament. We are now under a new covenant. This does not mean that the OT has been invalidated or is no longer the legitimate word of God, but it does mean that we need to view the OT in its proper perspective in relationship to the new covenant. I am not familiar enough with a NT Only fellowship to have a great deal of knowledge about how they see this, but my initial assumption is that they have missed the fact that the OT did not "cease to exist" for a believer, but rather its impact and significance must now be viewed through the glasses of the realities of the new covenant purchased be the blood of Jesus.

If you were to ask the typical Christian if they were required as born again believers to keep the Levitical law, most would say no. It is well that they say this, it was impossible to keep. But if you ask the typical Christian if God requires them to keep the ten commandments, the response would be about 99% yes, and emphatically. But in 2 Cor. 3:7 we find the ten commandments, the only part of the law written in stone, specifically mentioned as the ministration of death, and fully representative of the entirety of the Law. Not only are NT Christians not required to keep the law in regards to tithing, but are not required to keep the ten commandments. If you are keeping the ten commandments because, "They are the law of God", then you are in effect placing yourself back under the judgment of the whole law.

Now before anyone misunderstand, we as born again believers will keep the ten commandments, but not out of compulsion because it is God's law. Hebrews also says that under the new covenant God will write His laws in our heart. You see, when we take on the heart and mind of Christ (1 Cor. 2:16 and other references), we now begin to walk and live as He did, obeying God from love and relationship rather than from necessity.

So it cannot be NT only, but it also cannot be duality of covenants where we borrow from both and live under both. The old must be viewed through the lenses of the new.

Travis

Now before anyone misunderstand, we as born again believers will keep the ten commandments, but not out of compulsion because it is God's law. Hebrews also says that under the new covenant God will write His laws in our heart. You see, when we take on the heart and mind of Christ (1 Cor. 2:16 and other references), we now begin to walk and live as He did, obeying God from love and relationship rather than from necessity.

Totally agree twayneb. I actually said most of this in an earlier post and because of it, believe we should tithe.

I think a lot of Christians are confused about what a 'tithe' actually is. Deuteronomy Chapter 14 explains the law of tithing and explains what a tithe is. Remember, God's Word never contradicts itself. And God never changes. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. Money was never a tithable comodity ANYWHERE in the Bible, and certainly not in Deuteronomy Chapter 14. In order to understand what Malachi was talking about, you first need to know what tithing is. There is no such thing as Christian tithing, anymore than there are Christian synagogs or Christian burnt offerings. The Apostle Paul taught us that giving is a matter of the heart, and not to be done grudgingly or out of neccessity, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Furthermore, to say that God offers the free gift of salvation and a relationship with Him through Christ's accomplishments is one thing. To turn around and say that in order to maintain that relationship, we must relinquish 10% of our annual salaries to the church we attend is another and completely contrary to the teachings of Christ. God may well be leading you to give MORE than 10% of your income, depending on your particular situation, which is between you and God only. Giving is also a fundamental part of our faith. I would encourage anyone to search the Scriptures and first learn exactly what a tithe was when God conceived this Law and then seek out the Holy Spirit's guidance towards all truth in the matter, which would include examining the ENTIRE Bible, reading every passage that mentions tithing and giving. You may be quite surprised what you learn and that it might be different than what you've always been taught.

God does not dwell in temples anymore. He is now in the Believer's heart and we have a direct line to Him. Seek out what God would have you believe, not the clergy!