Christian Demon Possession

I've heard some pretty whacko doctrines (one even from Charisma magazine) that say Christians CAN be demon posessed.(Which in my opinion they can NOT be) I would like to know what others have to say about Christians being demon possessed whether they can or they can not.The Evangelist

Hi Theevangelist,i believe that a Christian can be demon oppressed (outside), but not, or no longer demon possessed (inside), once Christ is accepted as ones personal Savior ... Scriptures says that once we accept Christ, the Holy Spirit indwells us ... Rom. 8:9-11 1 Cor. 3:16; 6:19;James 4:5 2 Tim. 1:13-14 Eph 3:16 1 Thess. 4:8. The Holy Spirit takes up residence in us, and the Holy Spirit cannot live in the same house/temple as an unholy spirit ... For even Christ said that a house divided, can not stand ... But even tho indwealt by the Spirit, it does not mean that we can't still CHOOSE to do evil, it just means that we can no longer literally claim that the devil MADE ME do it ... that's my take.

Scriptures says that once we accept Christ, the Holy Spirit indwells us ...where?

where does it say 'when we accept Christ?'

Brother Ron ...Acts.2[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.i'll not get into all the other things like His sealing us unto the day of redemption, His baptism of us into the Body of Christ, His indwelling of us, and all the other wonderful things we get with/of the Holy Ghost, once we accept Christ ... Stands to Christian spiritual reasoning that if no man can get to the Father except by Christ, we can't get to the Holy Ghost without Him either ...Tit.3[1] Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,[2] To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.[3] For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.[4] But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,[5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;[6] Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;[7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.[8] This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.[9] But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.[10] A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;[11] Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.Hope this suffices as to where it says it ... Amen?

once we accept Christ ... where does the Bible talk about 'accepting Christ?'

Brother Ron:I think that this is just a play on wording. I agree that the phrase "accept Christ" is used very loosely and has led many people to believe they are born again when they are not. I myslef don't like to use the words accept Christ and I think for the most part they are used incorrectly.However, the words accept and receive seem to coincide with each other.Several scriptures speak of accepting or receiving.Mark 4:20, 9:37 and Luke 18:17 for just a few that speak of receiving Christ and His word.The Greek word here is dechomai (1209) and it mean to accept, receive or take.When the scriptures speak of the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost, mainly in Acts a different word is used. The Greek word is lambano (2983) which means accept, take, receieve, attain. This word is used as an alternative in certain tenses to the one mentioned previously. Maybe you can expound on to the reason why.In any case, it would seem to me that the scripture does indicate that we need to accept/receive God's word, accept/receive Christ as the only way to eternal life, accept/receive the cross and Christ's blood as the only possible way of redemption, accept/receive His promise of the gift and baptism of the Holy Spririt.A question they we may need to ask is how do we accept/receive these things. I would say it is through repentance just like Peter preached. That repentance in itself is a gift from the Lord.Hope this makes sense to somebody.Hope to read more about the subject of the original post on demon possession.God bless,Mike

Phewww ... Thanks Brother Mike ...Brother Ron,Since you've assured me that i can't possibly hurt your feelings, and believe me i'm not trying to ... But, you're scaring me ... Are you spliting hairs here? ... Mincing words? ... Or just being (i dread to say this but have thought it much) the devil's advocate? ... i pray it's not the latter ...Are you really hung up on the word "accept" so much until you can't see the meaning of scripture in regards obtaining the Holy Spirit thru Christ ... If so then no one else but the Holy Ghost can knock those scales from your eyes ... Do you believe yourself to be indwealt by the Holy Ghost? ... If so, then how and when do you think you recieved Him? ... i'm most curious about this, and you?

A little error can lead into a lot of error!

Brother Greg,I highly respect you as well as your incredible ministry through sermon index. I would have to disagree with you on the point of the book, "War on the Saints", however. You seem to be a student of revival history. You should also know then that "War on the Saints" was renounced by Evan Roberts no less than 2 years after it's publishing. I have a copy of the book and honestly find it to be filled with bizzare and unbiblical doctrines. This book shocked and appauled (sp?) the Welsh Revival converts because it denounced (in shrouded language) many of the powerful demonstrations of the Spirit which took place in Wales. Mrs. Penn Lewis was a great woman and no doubt loved the Lord with all of her heart, some of her literature however, was slightly off. Now I'm sure some things I believe are too, slightly off, so I do not say that as a condemnation on her. If you study the Welsh Revival, you will find that Mrs. Penn Lewis was possibly one of the reasons behind Evan Roberts withdraw from ministry, as well as the decline of the revival. I would be careful of recommending "War on the Saints". Just a sincere word from a brother in the Lord.Blessings,Jeff

Nasher:What is the little error that you are speaking about? Is it the wording "accept/receive" or are you speaking about demon possession of Christians.Mike

The little error is the one you have mentioned:I agree that the phrase "accept Christ" is used very loosely and has led many people to believe they are born again when they are not.

Hi Mike 5nvaI think that this is just a play on wording. I agree that the phrase "accept Christ" is used very loosely and has led many people to believe they are born again when they are not. I myslef don't like to use the words accept Christ and I think for the most part they are used incorrectly.I am not teasing but I am trying to provoke thought here. In the early days of this site there was a lot of attention given to AW Tozer, the man known as a 20th Century prophet. One of Tozer's main concerns was what he called textualism; "The error of textualism is not doctrinal. It is far more subtle than that and much more difficult to discover, but its effects are just as deadly. Not its theological beliefs are at fault, but its assumptions. It assumes, for instance, that if we have the word for a thing we have the thing itself. If it is in the Bible, it is in us. If we have the doctrine, we have the experience. If something was true of Paul it is of necessity true of us because we accept Paul's epistles as divinely inspired. The Bible tells us how to be saved, but textualism goes on to make it tell us that we are saved, something which in the very nature of things it cannot do. Assurance of individual salvation is thus no more than a logical conclusion drawn from doctrinal premises, and the resultant experience wholly mental." (Man: The Dwelling Place of God, A. W. Tozer, page 18, copyright 1966 Christian Publications, Inc., Harrisburg, PA.)My own conviction is that textualism lies at the foundation of many of our troubles in evangelicalism. The evangelical movement has created a whole theology of expectation that has no real basis in scripture. There is no biblical equivalent for 'accepting Christ' 'deciding for Christ' 'asking Christ into your life' 'giving your heart to Jesus' or any of these things. Consequently it is impossible to define just what the phrases mean. Does it matter you ask? You are just splitting hairs. Let me illustrate; I may call the creature downstairs a fish. Everyone else calls it a dog but does it matter? No, unless you get the 'How to Care for your Fish' manual. In that I read that the best home for my 'fish' is a water-filled aquarium and its favourite food is 'ants' eggs'. The arbitary name now it begins to have serious implications for the creature downstairs. We do the same in our current evangelical practices. We take someone through an event we call 'accepting Christ' 'deciding for Christ' 'asking Christ into your life' 'giving your heart to Jesus'and then say 'now that you have done this what the Bible says about the Ephesians is true for you'. There is an enormous gap here. We then end up having to defend these positions by saying 'if you have Christ you have the Spirit' and because you have 'accepted Christ' 'decided for Christ' 'asked Christ into your life' 'given your heart to Jesus' you have Christ. Who says so? The New Testament actually works in the opposite direction. It says 'if you don't have the Spirit you are not Christ's'. It says 'if you are led by the Spirit you are a son of God'. and most surprizing of all, where evangelicals says that 'when you receive Christ you receive the Spirit' the New Testament says 'when you receive the Spirit you receive Christ'.that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,(Eph 3:16-17 NASB) Apparently the way that Christ 'dwells in your heart by faith' is by being strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man'. Apparently Christ dwells in the heart as a result of the presence of the Spirit, rather than the other way around.The great question that Paul asked was not have you 'accepted Christ' 'decided for Christ' 'asked Christ into your life' 'given your heart to Jesus'but 'when you believed did you receive the Spirit? Now if we ask that question for this thread... Can someone who is filled with the Spirit also a demon? The simple answer is 'where would the demon be if we are filled with the Holy Spirit?'

Nasher:Please explain the error. I have met many people who say they have accepted Jesus has their Lord and Savior but they are clearly not living for the Lord, they are practicing sin of many kind. I have met many who say they have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior when they were 4, 5, 6, 7, etc years old and they are now adults and have no fruit of ever serving Him. That is not to say it isn't possible for a young child to be born again, I am just using this as an example for my statement that the phrase "accept Jesus" is used loosely.Mike

Ron:I do agree with you. My post was to just show that there is scripture that indicates an accepting and receiving. You asked where in scripture does it mention this and that is what I tried to answer. I am in agreement that we should not present the gospel and salvation as "accepting Jesus". Our message should be as Peter said "repent and be saved".As to the demon possession, I do not believe a person who is abiding in Christ, surrendering to God daily as a living sacrifice and presenting themselves as a slave to righteousness can be demon possessed.Matthew 15:28-29 - But if cast out demon by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.Luke 11:22 - but when someone stronger than he attacks him and overpowers him, he takes away from him allhis armor on which he has relied, and distributes his plunder.I do believe such a person can be demon oppressed or be under attack. I also believe one can fall away so I would say that if a person falls away they could become demon possessed at that point. I'm sure this will really open up a can of worms.Mike

Would 'receive' be a better term?

Brother Greg, I have the information stored upstairs although the source is foggy. I believe it is from "An Instrument of Revival" - Roberts Biography. When I go home for lunch I will search for an exact reference for you though.I do agree that Mrs. Penn Lewis does/did bring a much needed emphasis on the cross of Christ. I have to say though that the book seems to breed a fear that any wrong move in our search for God may cause us to become demonized. It seems to ignore Jesus' promise that if His children ask for the Holy Spirit sinerely, He will allow them to receive no other Spirit. (Matt 7:9-11) Although what you said is also valid, her emphasis on the cross that is. In that way she reminds me of one of my Professors from college, Dr. Sandy Kirk - have you heard of her? The cross is her central passion, I don't believe I have ever heard or read anyone speak of the cross with as much passion and conviction as she. Blessings,Jeff

I do believe such a person can be demon oppressed or be under attack. I also believe one can fall away so I would say that if a person falls away they could become demon possessed at that point. I'm sure this will really open up a can of worms.There is also this sobering verse: But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. (2Co 11:3-4 KJV)

Would 'receive' be a better term?I think 'receiving the Spirit' would be even better. ;-)

Brother Greg,I found the quote I was telling you about. It is from "An Instrument of Revival: The complete life of Evan Roberts 1878-1951. Which I must say, is a fantastic book, which has had a TREMENDOUS impact on my life. I was a bit off in my quote, however, I should have looked for the source before quoting. Here it is . . ."Only a year after the manual (War on the Saints) appeared, Evan Roberts told some friends that it had been a failed weapon which had confused and divided the Lord's people. It was too negative, he said, and there needed to be another book on life in the Spirit."So most likely instead of an outright denunciation of the book, it seems that he more regretted the spirit in which it was written as well as the ill-effects it had upon the body at large. Including the great confusion it brought upon many of the young Welsh revival converts. I would be more than happy to go through the book with you. I'm not able to be online all that often, a few times during the week while I'm at work. But I will go through it. Thanks again for your ministry!Blessings,Jeff

Brother Greg,Here is a more detailed quote from the book . . ."It is claimed that Mrs Penn Lewis used Evan’s name to propagate her own ministry and message. She supposedly convinced him he was deceived by evil spirits and, over the next few years co-authorised with Evan “War on the Saints”, which was published in 1913. This book clearly delineates the confusion she had drawn Evan into. It left its readers totally wary of any spiritual phenomena of any kind or degree. Rather than giving clear guidelines regarding discerning satanic powers, it brought into question anything that may be considered, or that might be described, as Holy Spirit activity. Within a year of its publication, Evan Roberts denounced it, telling friends that it had been a failed weapon which had confused and divided the Lord’s people."

ac·ceptFunction: verb1 a : to receive willingly b : to be able or designed to take or hold (something applied or added)2 : to give admittance or approval to 3 a : to endure without protest or reaction b : to regard as proper, normal, or inevitable. c : to recognize as true : BELIEVE4 a : to make a favorable response to b : to agree to undertake (a responsibility) 5 : to assume an obligation to pay; also : to take in payment 6 : to receive (a legislative report) officiallyintransitive senses : to receive favorably something offered re·ceiveFunction: verb1 : to come into possession of : ACQUIRE 2 a : to act as a receptacle or container for . b : to assimilate through the mind or senses 3 a : to permit to enter : ADMIT b : WELCOME, GREET c : to react to in a specified manner4 : to accept as authoritative, true, or accurate : BELIEVE5 a : to support the weight or pressure of : BEAR b : to take (a mark or impression) from the weight of something c : ACQUIRE, EXPERIENCE 1 : to be a recipient2 : to be at home to visitors 3 : to convert incoming radio waves into perceptible signals4 : to prepare to take possession of the ball from a kick in football.My God brother Ron ... All this discussion about whether it's "accept" Christ, or "recieve" Christ? ... Bless God "recieve" sets better with you, man ... '0) ... But i have to say that your whole exercise reminds me of the time when Christ told the Pharisees that they strained at gnats, while swallowing camels ...

Brother Greg,You are right on. I should not have presumptiously "quoted" something which I wasn't actually "quoting". I agree that I could have given people a false view of what a great man of God was trying to communicate. I apologize for that. Blessings,Jeff

But i have to say that your whole exercise reminds me of the time when Christ told the Pharisees that they strained at gnats, while swallowing camelsWith reference to this particular thread I would spit out both gnats and camels. The point I was making was not to do with the difference between 'accept' and 'receive'; that would just be a grammatical nicety and is of no special interest to me.My issue was that neither 'accepting Christ' nor 'receiving Christ', as evangelicals use the phrases', have biblical foundations. They only mean what we want them to mean and have no Bible definitions. So you can take your pick and use either; its just that you can't use the Bible to define either of them as regards becoming 'His'.BTW never use an ordinary dictionary to define Bible words they will often lead you astray.On the words dechomai and lambano as raised by another poster, it is difficult to distinguish between them clearly. My old Biblical Greek lecturer used to say that dechomai was more passive and lambano more active. He was a classics scholar and that might be more true for classical Greek than Biblical Greek.

Found this interesting verse which says:Now the whole world had one language and a common speech... 6The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other." Gen 11:1,6,7Maybe if we all said the same thing and understood it, nothing would be impossible for us.

philologos wrote:Can someone who is filled with the Spirit also a demon? The simple answer is 'where would the demon be if we are filled with the Holy Spirit?' Jesus says this interesting(another one:-)) thing:When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, `I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation." Matt 12:43-45 Does anyone have any ideas if this person was a believer? There are so many questions for me with this one. Had he not received the spirit? Why was there knowone living there? Is this casting out of demons of a non-believer?Thanks

Does anyone have any ideas if this person was a believer?I personally do NOT believe that Christ is refering to a believer in this passage. I believe if a sinner doesn't repent and give his life to Christ, YES that demon spirit will not only return, but the Bible says he'll bring 7 more with him. Here's a funny question (I'm not being serious about this question, i.e. a joke) , I don't believe in Christians being Demon Possessed, but can a Demon be Christian Possessed? LOL. :-) Try a theological answer for that one. God Bless, and Glory to the Lamb.The Evangelist.

You know guys, i think what it is is that some of you on SI are just to deep for this simple minded, foolish old vessel, named Rahman ... i know no greek, aramaic, or latin ... Haven't studied theology ... Don't have a DD, other than Divinely Directed (whatever happened to simple preachers like that) ... All i know i got is just this one thing ... I GOT JESUS, AND HE GOT ME! ... And thru Him i have access to the Father, and the gift of the Holy Ghost ... And it don't matter a hill of beans to me whether one says accept" ... "recieve" ... or any other word one can use to denote becoming His, as long as you become His ... And bother Ron as far as determining meanings of words from a simple dictionary, especially when the words that are to be defined are as simple as "accept" or "recieve", i think a simple Websters is ok, especially so when the dual definition of both contain the word BELIEVE ... After all, to simple ole me, the context of this thread, regarding the Holy Ghost connection to Christ, ain't all that complex ... He said, "Come unto Me all ye that are heavy laden, and i will give you rest" ... And i don't think our Master would be splitting hairs, mincing words, or straining at gnats, about rather one "accepted" or "recieved" His invite ... just so long as you came.Finally i think one of the major problems with the Church of Christ is that we've taken His simplicity and turned it into complexity ... We've replaced the simple Holy Ghost picked preachers of God, and replaced them with cemetarians ... God don't need big words, and the expoundings of book learned men to promote His Gospel ... He needs simple minded, foolish vessels who just take Him at His word, via the Spirits explanation and unction ... Most of us often times strain and gnats, just so we can swallow our camels, but i've got to admit that you're the first i've ever heard say they spit them both out! ... That's just wayyyyyyy to deep for me bro ... '0)Brother Greg you wrote;Quote;Brother Rahman there is sometime of vital necessity we have to grasp in the gospel and the presentation thereof. If we miss at one mark it can have an ripel effect that can be disasterous.i agree ... i just don't think the difference between "accepting" Christ, and "recieving" Christ, in the obtaining of the gift of the Holy Ghost is one of them.

God is a jealous God, He will not share His Glory, especially with a demon spirit in one of his precious temples(in a believer).The Evangelist

theevangelist wrote:I don't believe in Christians being Demon Possessed, but can a Demon be Christian Possessed? LOL. :-) Try a theological answer for that one. DUH:-D (Refer Ray Comfort 'What Hollywood Believes')

theevangelist wrote:God is a jealous God, He will not share His Glory, especially with a demon spirit in one of his precious temples(in a believer).Do you think that someone through strongholds that have been set up in ones life, can have a critter living in one of them (strongholds)?Where the person himself defends the fort of his own self against the thrust of the finger of God.

John 1:9-12There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe on His name.Praise and glory to Jesus for this wonderful truth and gift.I guess no matter how you slice it we are in Christ who have believed on Him for salvation. Let us not forget the simplicity serving and loving our Lord and Savior despite how many have taken this simplicity and perverted it to easy believism.God bless,Mike

And here i just got done saying how wonderful the fellowship was on SI; and thinking how well everyone tried to do their best to put others before themselves.Boys, boys, please (sorry but that's what it reminds me of :) Everyone is going to think different words mean different things- to them. If I say that i surrendered my life, someone else might say the say thing and not mean it like me. Someone may say they have accepted Christ as Lord and mean the real thing- someone else might not.Please don't argue just for the sake of proving a point. Most of us on here (SI) know that no matter what people may call it (received, surrendered, accepted, gave my life, gave my heart, whatever...) some people meant it and knew what it meant- and others did not.Please refer to the thread Let us Continue To Edify One AnotherWe can show what we mean or make our point in kindness and love.I sure would appreciate it. :-) In His perfect love, Chanin

Do you think that someone through strongholds that have been set up in ones life, can have a critter living in one of them (strongholds)?Honestly brother, I say this with a compassionate heart, because I was at one time at this point in my own life. The strongholds that you are talking about are none other than the flesh. If one doesn't put his faith properly in the Cross and what Christ has done, he will continue to fall into sin and will struggle constantly until either he:1.think's that the Christian believer has to live with that sin forever without total deliverance and believes it can never be overcome... 2.gives up totally upon Christ and goes back into the world discouraged because he/she doesn't believe Christ can set a person free, and deliverance from their sin is not possible.3.believes that they're possessed by a demon spirit and the spirit won't let hold of their grip unless it's cast out.Those are only three (and I don't mean this harshly at all) excuses to the justification (although they're not saying the sin is right) of their flesh. It's heart-breaking. The problem is they do not have a proper understanding of the New Covenant, (i.e., the Faith). Many do blame their bondages(strongholds) on demon possession because to them only stands to reason that they can't break the power of it. However, I've good news. Christ has already defeated the enemy and the victory is already there! It lies in what Christ has already done, His finised works on the Cross!!! Glory to the Lamb Forevermore!!! (Romans 6, 7, & 8 - The life of the believer, stepping out the Law, and into the New Covenant)God Bless, The Evangelist

i just don't think the difference between "accepting" Christ, and "recieving" Christ, in the obtaining of the gift of the Holy Ghost is one of them.Hi RahmanI think we are talking past each other. Do you think I am trying to say there is a difference between 'accepting' and 'receiving'?

theevangelist wrote:The strongholds that you are talking about are none other than the flesh. If one doesn't put his faith properly in the Cross and what Christ has done, he will continue to fall into sin... I agree with what you are saying, about the cross etc, but what I said was directed at the original question of the post 'can a christian be possessed by a demon'? These are just different facets of life that may challenge or not challenge the position of christians in regard to oppression/possession. If a person through continual disobedience in a area gives up that ground of righteousness, eventually need deliverance in that particular area?

A pertinent question to be asked and answered:Do any of the dear writers in this thread have any personal, practical experience in the field so eagerly discussed?Have any of the dear combatants turned thinking into practice in evangelism and counselling?Lars W.

Hi LarsI have had a fair amount of combat in this area over the years, particularly in the realm of pastoral counselling. I have seen people from many walks of life wonderfully delivered from powers which have crippled their lives. Sometimes the deliverances have been quite a spectacle and at other times just a simple word has set the captive free. I have known times when such powers have clearly been located within a person and others where there was more a sense of haunting. Some years ago I was asked to pray in a haunted inn. The Lord showed me very clearly that it was the landlord who was haunted and not his pub. I have posted before on this matter that the scriptures are very restrained in their discussion or explanation of these things. This is why we need to be cautious about formulating doctrines on such matters, and one reason for my own caution with regard to Jesse Penn Lewis. I believe God will give 'discernment' as appropriate but to systematize such things runs the danger of younger Christians working the method.I don't claim discernment as a permanent gift. If God shows me what is happening I can move with conviction and clarity. When He doesn't I am helpless.As regards 'combatants'. I sincerely apologize if any of my posts have given that impression. I am only seeking clarity in expression and have found that to try to insist on biblical terminology is the best way of trying to understand what is really happening in any individual situation. I ask awkward questions to provoke thought not combat. My goal is truth not victory.There is an interesting Bible narrative which I have often thought about. In Philippi Paul encountered a clairvoyant who told people that Paul's message was true; And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.(Act 16:18 KJV) Why, I have wondered, was this allowed to continue for 'many days'? Perhaps because there was some uncertainty as to what was really happening? Perhaps because God has a perfect time for such things? Perhaps because that was the moment when God gave Paul the discernment? Whatever the reason the spirit manifestation continued for some time before she was delivered. I think Paul was 'helpless' until God gave him revelation. The danger is that the exchange of information can give us knowledge but not power; better to wait until God shows us.

Items for thorough reading and for beginning careful practice as we are moving into times when these phenomenons are legion. Three classical works:Kurt KochChristian Counselling and OccultismThe counselling of the psychically disturbed and those oppressed through involvement in occultism.Kregel publicationsJohn L. NeviusDemon possessionThis item contains authentic case histories of demon-inhabitation. Drawn from Nevius’ long background as a Presbyterian missionary in China.Kregel publicationsJohn RichardsBut deliver us from evilAn introduction to the demonic dimension in pastoral care.The writer was secretary of the Bishop of Exeter’s Study Group on Exorcism.Darton, Longman and Todd ltd.

hi LarsI thought Kurt Koch was cessationist? Does he believe in the possibility of demons and deliverance from them?

ZekeOI have certainly seen occasions where professing Christians of many years standing have subsequently needed deliverance in this area. I am thinking of a man I had known for many years; he was husband and father, superintendent of the sunday school, gospel soloist, open air preacher, a full member of an evangelical church, in which he sometimes preached, for over 20 years. Who was subsequently found to be in the grip of powerful spirits and to have been a practising homosexual for all of his adult life. God set him free.It was from experiences of this kind that I tried to identify what we really meant by Christians who had 'accepted Christ'. Although he had professed salvation and had the evangelical verbal testimony to endorse it, there was something in the heart of this man that had just never been touched. Was he a 'Christian'? All his church peers would have had no hesitation in saying 'yes', but his secret behaviour denied it.Had he known the Lord and then gone away from Him? or had he never really known the Lord? As Yodi said elsewhere, your answer to that will depend on your theology. This man would pray in public and could sing beautifully; he would have been a star in many a local church, but to my sense there was always 'something missing'.

Ron,I do not know if we are talking about the same man. I never found any substantial biographical material.I have in my library six classical works by this author. He is referring to the necessity of the cooperation with the Holy Spirit in deliverance. In “Demonology, past and present” he has a whole chapter on the difference between mediumistic powers and the gifts of the Spirit.Perhaps some of these items should be scanned and posted here. Very enlightening.Lars

When an individual becomes the Lord’s possession, do the presence and the work of the Holy Spirit formulate itself as a static indwelling which more or less automatically wards off evil, demonic interference?Do we have something of a progressiveness in the, may we call it, spiritual intensity which the evil forces has to give in to by and by? A progressiveness rather than an immediate switch? “The Lord is mine and I am his,” but this fact must crystallize itself into a practical reality – sanctification.Is it in such a context we are forced to accept that a Christian can be, even severely, oppressed?Lars

When an individual becomes the Lord’s possession, do the presence and the work of the Holy Spirit formulate itself as a static indwelling which more or less automatically wards off evil, demonic interference?Hi LarsThese are just my opinions and observations and personal experiences. I note your cautious phrase 'demonic interference'. ;-) I am happy with this caution.I have observed, or so I think, that some temperaments are more susceptible to demonic interference than others. I think it has to do with the shape of our souls!! (now I shall really be in trouble!) Let me illustrate my family on my father's side has a physical shape to the throat that has opened generations to severe throat infections. We are more susceptible to throat infection that others might be. My mother's side of the family has a propensity for a particular kind of spiritual 'interference' that I would call the psychic. It revealed itself in forms of mysticism (now you know why I am twitchy on that topic) and clairvoyance. It produced 'psychic soul links'. I personally suffered from these in various ways, especially in the sense of a pull in my soul which at times was very wearying. A moment came when I realized that I was experiencing 'interference' (I like your word.;-)) and I requested my co-elders to pray for me. As they prayed they used the language of the 'cutting of an umbilical cord'. I felt no physical change but when I arrived at my home my mother was on the phone; she said 'what has happened to you, I've lost you'. Since that time, and this is NOT a methodology, I have been free from family-type spirit interference. I think I still have the same 'soul shape' and could re-establish those contacts, but I am resolute in refusing every possibility. I have never felt the same 'tie' but at times have sensed that the channels were 'open'. I immediately close them. Over a period of time these choices become the default position, and it is very seldom now that I even sense 'open channels'. He has furnished me with a banquet 'in the presence of mine enemies' and they no longer 'interfere' with my appetite or my enjoyment of His provision.My brother whose 'soul shape' is more on our father's line has had much less hassle in this area than I had. Our parents both came to know the Lord and my mother discovered that she had not 'lost' me but gained a son rather than a shadow.Of course, all this may be nonsense. As I said these are just my opinions, observations and personal experience. Here comes the Bible bit...I see from the scriptures that the way 'demonic interference' is described is usually by a verb which would simply be translated 'demonized'. Some have further refined this to speak of 'oppression' 'possession'; and I would say sometimes 'obsession'. These are human observations and do not have the same authority as the scriptural evidence. The KJV 'casting out' of demons has led to the conclusion that they must be 'in' before they can be cast 'out', but although the Greek word 'ekballo' does derive from 'out-throw' it is used in the scriptures to mean 'send away', sometimes in surprizing contexts. So the spacial 'location' of evil spirits is not something we can really be dogmatic about. I think this is where God's gift of the discerning of spirits is so absolutely necessary. In prayer for those 'interfered with' I have found myself regarding such entities as 'in', 'on', 'hovering', 'lurking' and as I have followed my leadings have seen God move in lives. But I cannot create a system from these instances but can only respond as I see things; as I see, so I judge.So, in direct answer to your question, I would say God can definitely 'ward off' all such 'interference' but, as in the whole of salvation, our safety lies not in events that we have experienced but in Christ Himself. He has become my Salvation, rather than something I get from Him. The Name of the LORD is a strong tower; the righteous (continually) run into it and are lifted up.

Ron; I recognise the picture(s) you are penning after many years of work in this field.What I am after is a kind of workable definition which holds both theologically and experientially in regards to the fact that Christians may have lots of trouble because of the activity of various spirits and spiritistic influence over their lives; even with a connection to what a whole family stands for spiritually including a spiritual heritage.The deliverance is not necessarily momentous at the spiritual birth but has often to be worked towards in a counselling setting. That means, we may well meet Christians matured in common church life – many years in the pew – but very immature as to experience in Christ, especially related to freedom from evil interference. (I think it is a fair expression to be used to come away from words like obsession and oppression, even possession which easily stigmatize the counselee.)The general statement that a Christian cannot have a demon does not comply with experience in the field of counselling, but to work out explanations and theology is indeed a task full of tension, almost like a stroll in a mine field.Lars

lwpray wrote:The general statement that a Christian cannot have a demon does not comply with experience in the field of counselling, but to work out explanations and theology is indeed a task full of tension, almost like a stroll in a mine field.I agree heartily with what you gentleman have shared. The truth of the bible says that I am a new creation/creature in Christ, therefore I am free. Thats the truth of the matter, but the individual facts of the matter is that there appear to be patterns of behaviour which contridict Christlike behaviour. And as TheEvangelist says, the cross is missing from their lives. This raises another interesting 'personel mine', the line between personal accountability for actions and patterns and ideas that have been set up within humans, which at times occur with little or not control from the individual.

Evil interference occurs in all the greater measure as man declines accountability.A large part of severe counselling situations reveal man’s unwillingness to stand up to moral requirements in social life.One may not blame demons for man’s behaviour. Man is obliged to take control – remember Cain.Lars

What I am after is a kind of workable definition which holds both theologically and experientially in regards to the fact that Christians may have lots of trouble because of the activity of various spirits and spiritistic influence over their lives; even with a connection to what a whole family stands for spiritually including a spiritual heritage.Lars,I am not usually reluctant in attempting definitions but it is the pastoral context that makes me cautious here. As you say, it is so easy to stigmatize someone and to leave them open to severe temptations if they are not immediately set free. I recall talking to a young woman who had been told 'you have serious demonic problems but I'm not sure what they are and can't help you at the present time'. Can you imagine what this did to the young woman? God never reveals such things until He is ready to rectify them.I think I have shared some of my understanding about 'heredity curses' etc on another thread but even if they exist, I must believe that regeneration resets all the dials. Regeneration, of course, would not reset the conditions in which someone might live, and we have a cunning adversary who is able to counterfeit 'old' interferences very accurately. This is why we must 'know' what God has done for us, by revelation to our spirit. If our basis is elsewhere we are vulnerable to being held hostage on many issues.A thought comes to mind about 'Christians' in this battle zone. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. (Jam 4:7 KJV) and Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. (1Pe 5:8-9 KJV) In each of these passages the word 'resist' really just means to 'stand against'. The KJV sometimes gives us a feel of a long drawn out battle in this area, but the word used is not so muscular. Just 'stand against' the interference and it must flee. The first half of the verse is also crucial and hence the order of our combat. First be sure everything is right with God, then... submit then resist...Here's another thought that surfaces just now. I worked quite reqularly with a brother, now with the Lord, who had amazing discernment and power in this area. The precision of his discernments were breathtaking. I recall him once saying, in private conversation, "it's not hard to drive the rats away but unless the sewer is cleaned and filled afresh with God's Spirit they will be back."And yet another thought... Paul saya that the Galatian believers had been 'bewitched' (Gal 3:1) (baskaino is the word that the English word 'fascinate' is said to come from). They had come under some 'spell' or 'evil interference' and yet his solution to this was not 'exorcism' but right teaching. I do believe that many of God's people 'perish for lack of knowledge'.

Quote:Scriptures says that once we accept Christ, the Holy Spirit indwells us ...where?_________________His/YoursRon Bwhere does it say 'when we accept Christ?'_________________His/YoursRon BQuote:once we accept Christ ...where does the Bible talk about 'accepting Christ?'_________________His/YoursRon BQuote:Would 'receive' be a better term?I think 'receiving the Spirit' would be even better._________________His/YoursRon BQuote:But i have to say that your whole exercise reminds me of the time when Christ told the Pharisees that they strained at gnats, while swallowing camelsWith reference to this particular thread I would spit out both gnats and camels. The point I was making was not to do with the difference between 'accept' and 'receive'; that would just be a grammatical nicety and is of no special interest to me.My issue was that neither 'accepting Christ' nor 'receiving Christ', as evangelicals use the phrases', have biblical foundations. They only mean what we want them to mean and have no Bible definitions. So you can take your pick and use either; its just that you can't use the Bible to define either of them as regards becoming 'His'.BTW never use an ordinary dictionary to define Bible words they will often lead you astray.On the words dechomai and lambano as raised by another poster, it is difficult to distinguish between them clearly. My old Biblical Greek lecturer used to say that dechomai was more passive and lambano more active. He was a classics scholar and that might be more true for classical Greek than Biblical Greek._________________His/YoursRon BQuote:i just don't think the difference between "accepting" Christ, and "recieving" Christ, in the obtaining of the gift of the Holy Ghost is one of them.Hi RahmanI think we are talking past each other. Do you think I am trying to say there is a difference between 'accepting' and 'receiving'?_________________His/YoursRon BWell brother Ron, In reading your above posts i did initially think that was your stance, until i read your post quoted below, in which you have spit out both the gnat and the camel ... i answered this thread and should have let my initial comment stand, and not get myself further embroiled in an arena that is just way over my head ... As i said before, my take on wording and terminology such as "accepting" and "recieving" , and tying it in to such scripture as ...Acts.2[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost..... is not, and does not for me (thank God) have to be as precise as yours, and it does seem to me like straining at gnats in my simplistic view ... or as you stated;Quote;My issue was that neither 'accepting Christ' nor 'receiving Christ', as evangelicals use the phrases', have biblical foundations. They only mean what we want them to mean and have no Bible definitions. So you can take your pick and use either; its just that you can't use the Bible to define either of them as regards becoming 'His'.Maybe you can't, but i both can, and do ... And no i'm not talking past you, on the contrary i'm talking straight to you, but your reasonings on this one, also like your reasonings on God's judgement in modern times, and that of replacement theology, are definetly way past me ... i'm way out of my league in most encounters i have with you brother Ron ... You're a theologian, and i'm but a rough cut, locust eating, wilderness dwelling, camel hair and leather girdle wearing, unlearned, voice crying out from the wilderness ... Not trying to be flip here, but this is just how i see myself, and have pretty much been told as much from a few doctorate preachers i know ... i hear it all the time, "Brother Rahman, it's just not as simple as you percieve it" ... Well what's so hard about doing Joel chapters 1 & 2? ... But i know that Nicolaitans and Balaams can't survive on the simplicity of the Gospel ... It's got to be changed into a series of complexities and formulas in order for these two blood sucking spawns from Hell to survive off the Body of Christ ... The message of repentance is my forte, and what God has ordained me to proclaim, not my going back and forth as to whether i can safely apply scripture to such words as "accept" or "recieve" Christ, and the gift of the Holy Ghost ... Such exercises as this makes my simple head hurt, and throws me off my mark ... '0) ... So i've taken my four spiritual Advil, and am done with this one ... God bless you all!Bro. R

Hi:I wholeheartedly agree with Rahman AMEN..Christians can be OPRESSED but not POSSESSED by demons. But, now Christians that choose to fall away from the Lord...that may well be a different story.One thing is for certain, before I was a Christian "Born Again"....I never knew what "Spiritual Warfare" even was !! :-)

It is interesting to me that this thread has just come up on this website because God has been opening up my eyes to things of this nature and I believe preparing me for demonic confrontations...I believe there are a few fundamental things that need to be dealt with when it comes to the issue of demons. There are many misunderstandings in this area. Here are some of my thoughts:1.I have read several times (and believe it is true) that the word in the greek that we translate "demon possess" does not actually mean "possess" in the greek, but more like "demonized" which means oppressed or influenced by a demon. The word possess indicates total control over a person and that is not the picture we have in Scripture. Even the man who had a legion of demons in him had enough control over himself to run to Jesus and fall at his feet. A person can have a demon inside of him but be unaware of it and it may not manifest in an overt way for a long time. This simple, fundamental understading can change everything else.2. In scripture there are different kinds of demons. Jesus said, "This kind can only be brought out by prayer and fasting..." so it was a certain kind of demon. Also, demons have different roles. One made a woman have a crooked spine (in Luke) and one caused a boy to be deaf and dumb. It seems to me that each demonic spirit has a particular area that it tries to effect or control. So it doesn't possess the entire person but tries to get a stronghold on a particular area of the persons life or personality.3. There is no clear Scripture that says that a Christian can never need deliverance from a demon, it is simply assumed. (and anyone who thinks otherwise is usually deemed heretical) Jesus once called deliverance from demons "the childrens bread" (matthew 15:26). If sickness and sin can reside in the temple of God (our bodies) then why can't a demon? In the Old Testament God's temple came to ruin because the Israelites let in get so out of hand. Just because we are God's temple does not mean that we get automatic protection from demons.4. I used to be very skeptical when I heard people talking about delivering people from "a spirit of lust" or a "spirit of fear" or "suicide" or any other names. I thought that they were just blaming there sinful acts on demons. I thought that they were just assumiing the presence of a demon. But from my reading on this (Derek Prince: "They shall expel Demons" and other books) people who deliver others from demons cast out physical demons that will often talk to them and manifest in similar ways as described in the Bible (shrieking, change of the countenance of the face, falling to the floor and having seizure type manifestations.) They are actually confrontning a demon, not just assuming he is there.5. Jesus cast out demons wherever he went. Is there less demons on the earth today? How come we don't see this same thing today? Demons haven't changed and neither has Christ...we have. Demons can often live in people and never manifest overtly because they are not confronted by the true kingdom of God. This is especially true in the west where everything can be explained by nature and science and the power of God is not often manifest.6. I have heard stories (from very reliable people) of Christians, even Spirit-baptized Christians being delivered from demons. They can't explain how it happened or how it works with theology but they only know what they saw happen. In one case, a fairly new Spirit-filled believer spent some time fasting and seeking God to deliver him from some of the strongholds that used to be in his life and that were trying to grab him again. During this time, demons started to manifest and he was eventually delivered and set free completly from the strongholds.These are some of the things that I have come across as I seek God about these things. There is much more that is involved and I know that people can get way overbalanced and start to blame everything on demons, but im not going to close myself to the possibility that a Christian can be demonized and need deliverance. I think that is a dangerous assumption.Jake Kail

If Christians cannot be demon possessed then for whom is the casting out of demons for? The unsaved? What good is it to cast a demon out of someone who has not surrendered their entire life over to the Lord Jesus. That spirit will come back in and the latter end for that person is worse. It is ONLY Christians that can have spirits cast out and the grace to live holy lives that keep all doors to the enemy closed so that spirits cannot come back in.Possession doesn't mean that you are running aroung in the tombs cutting yourself. This biblical example is an extreme case of demon possession. Possession usually is an inability to get a victory over a particular sin inspite if much prayer and desire to be free. In this case casting out a demon is usually required. (Take anger for example)Matt 15:21-28 clearly shows that deliverance from devils is the "children's bread". The women simply wanted to partake of the "crumbs" and that was enough for her daughter to be set free from a demon.This "opinion" that the Holy Spirit and demons can't occupy the same "space" has no scriptural basis. Spirits do not occupy space like water fills a glass. Read Luke 11, especially verse 25 where the person is clean (Holy Spirit filled) and because they were not careful they opened the door to that same devil and he brought seven spirits worse than himself. Also note that at the beginning of that chapter it is talking about the Heavenly Father giving good gifts to His children and then it goes right into the reality of casting out unclean spirits. Casting out spirits is a manifestation of the kingdom of God, performed by the finger of God on the children of God so that they can be totally free from all powers of darkness.My lifetime Christian experience shows that christians can be both oppressed and possessed by spirits. Christans have been delivered from demons of false doctine, religious pride, alcoholism, lust, confusion, anger, witchcraft and apathy just to name a few. I do not see in the bible where this wonderful freedom is promised to anyone else BUT believers.Again, I believe too many look at this subject backwards. When a believer is casting a spirit out of another person, the person being set free from the unclean spirit must be a believer as well. Otherwise how is that person going to maintain their deliverence because they are still walking in darkness, being unregenerate and a sinner? The only exception is the case of TOTAL possession in which case the person is delivered, saved and given a sound mind by the grace of God instantaneously like the Gadarene demoniac.By partaking in sinful habits we willingly give spirits legal rights to possess and oppress and do much harm. Yes, many Christians foolishly do this and sadly, far too many never recover themselves from it. This is how apostasy begins. Luke 11:26

Read Luke 11, especially verse 25 where the person is clean (Holy Spirit filled) and because they were not careful they opened the door to that same devil and he brought seven spirits worse than himself.I think much of the purpose of this passage is to show that 'sweeping clean and putting in order' is not sufficient as a defense against demonic interference; "And when it comes, it finds it swept and put in order. (Luk 11:25 NASB) The point of this story is that reformation 'sweeps clean and puts things in order', but leaves the house empty and vulnerable.In its original application it is a parable against the nation of Israel which had responded superficially. Their changes had been only cosmetic. Empty houses are vulnerable to a return of the 'squatters'.

Great dialogue here brethren.Some random thoughts.Another possible term is "harassment".Could give quite a few examples of pre-conversion, drug induced demonic activity. The drugs being not only a conduit but also gives it all a nice muddiness to the deception, but that would only add to moving this further off topic.Would say that I am with Ron on this and appreciate the caution which he deals with this area. The other thread mentioned physic soul links is on the mark and should be noted. Also, really appreciate this frank and honest comment;Of course, all this may be nonsense. As I said these are just my opinions, observations and personal experience.Because the devil is a liar and his minions ape their master, deception is deceptive, speculation is speculative...you get the idea. To err on the side of caution is not a cop out, but wisdom. Think it also carries over into other areas like 'prophecy', we have to keep in mind that we may be redeemed but we are still damaged and prone to our own brains mis-firings.To finish the quote; Here comes the Bible bit...THIS is the only safeguard against the 'extra' bit's of speculative and wanton meanderings that are out there. Would think it would be plain enough but...Lars wrote:Evil interference occurs in all the greater measure as man declines accountability. A large part of severe counselling situations reveal man’s unwillingness to stand up to moral requirements in social life.One may not blame demons for man’s behaviour. Man is obliged to take control – remember CainAmen! First in order.Along that line and to the house cleaning, might we add this?2Pe 2:1 Now there were false prophets among the people, just as there also will be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Pe 2:2 Many people will follow their immoral ways, and because of them the way of truth will be maligned. 2Pe 2:3 In their greed they will exploit you with deceptive words. The ancient verdict against them is still in force, and their destruction is not asleep. 2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but threw them into the lowest hell and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept for judgment; 2Pe 2:5 and if he did not spare the ancient world but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others when he brought the flood on the world of ungodly people; 2Pe 2:6 and if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and destroyed them by burning them to ashes, making them an example to ungodly people of what is going to happen to them; 2Pe 2:7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man who was greatly distressed by the immoral conduct of lawless people- 2Pe 2:8 for as long as that righteous man lived among them, day after day he was being tortured in his righteous soul by what he saw and heard in their lawless actions- 2Pe 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials and to hold unrighteous people for punishment on the day of judgment, 2Pe 2:10 especially those who satisfy their flesh by indulging in its passions and who despise authority. Being bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to slander glorious beings. 2Pe 2:11 Yet even angels, although they are greater in strength and power, do not bring a slanderous accusation against them from the Lord. 2Pe 2:12 These people, like irrational animals, are mere creatures of instinct that are born to be caught and killed. They insult what they don't understand, and like animals they, too, will be destroyed, 2Pe 2:13 suffering wrong as punishment for their wrongdoing. They take pleasure in wild parties in broad daylight. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceitful pleasures while they eat with you. 2Pe 2:14 With eyes full of adultery, they cannot get enough of sin. They seduce unsteady souls and have had their hearts expertly trained in greed. They are doomed to a curse. 2Pe 2:15 They have left the straight path and wandered off to follow the path of Balaam, the son of Bosor, who loved the reward he got for doing wrong. 2Pe 2:16 But he was rebuked for his offense. A donkey that normally cannot talk spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet's insanity. 2Pe 2:17 These men are dried-up springs, mere clouds driven by a storm. Gloomy darkness is reserved for them. 2Pe 2:18 By talking high-sounding nonsense and using sinful cravings of the flesh, they entice people who have just escaped from those who live in error. 2Pe 2:19 Promising them freedom, they themselves are slaves to depravity, for a person is a slave to whatever conquers him. 2Pe 2:20 For if, after escaping the world's corruptions through a full knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled and conquered by them, then their last condition is worse than their former one. 2Pe 2:21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to know it and turn their backs on the holy commandment that was committed to them. 2Pe 2:22 The proverb is true that describes what has happened to them: "A dog returns to its vomit," and "A pig that is washed goes back to wallow in the mud." Responsibility first and foremost. Too many instances and directives to "stand your ground", "resist", "take up", "put on" and ironically another word that seems to not only lost favor but even definition:Discipline.1Co 9:26 So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. 1Co 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. Now for some grace. Even boxers eventually lose a fight or at least get pummeled in the course of a bout, that's where we can come into the corner and give some water, some eyesalve and encouragement.Now for a big giant wrench to throw into all of this. I just picked up a book given to me awhile back that I recalled challenged me on this whole issue. Stranger yet, I 'flipped' right to the section that I was looking for 8-) ... It's a bit long and it deals with someone who was entangled with and coming out of astrology. I found that it applied personally in a number of ways, one being an ill-advised visit to a physic even though my Catholic upbringing somehow had implanted this was a bad idea, I went with the thought of "if this 'feels' wrong I will just leave". Looking back on it, she was very accurate but just as well not much help. I was in a very bad way, despondent, lonely, doing drugs but had recently come off the 'speed'. Vulnerable. She told me I would come across a blonde woman who had a child and that it would be MY decision whether or not to get involved with her. It wasn't until many months later and many months after that it all dawned on me now that I was involved in a relationship with a married (though separated) women with a young child who just happened to be blonde, just how accurate she was. Quite a mess and a lot of unnecessary pain to all who were involved for many years afterwords. Dangerous hardly expresses what can come about meddling in this realm. Hope to post the prior thoughts before this digression at a later point.Sorry for the length...

Slightly off topic here but,Is anyone familiar with the Writings of Rebecca Brown, she has published 4 books (that I know of) on Spiritual Warfare, and I was wondering if anybody has read or found them usefull.Lyndon

yes i have read 3 of her books. no they went the best of help they opened my eyes to other things in the spirit but i also got a weird check in my spirit when i read them.but if you type in her name you will find there is alot said about her in a bad way in that she still is a witch writing to confuse christians & that her stories dont add up at all.so there is something for you to consider? i have read a book by a lady called doreen irvine now hers was helpful, aswel as a book by another lady called "destroying the works of witchcraft through prayer & fasting ruth brown"

The reason I was asking is that the books are really popular right now around here among our Christian youth. And I have some problems with some of what is being tought, eg. generational curses, christian demon possesion, demons "legal" right to posses you etc... Mabye someone could expound on what constitutes a legal right.I have looked her up on the internet, however the internet is not the most reliable source of information. And the few sites that I did check out all seem to get their information from the same source, so I am a little leary just accepting what is being said there. That being said she does seem to generate a fair share of criticism.Lyndon

And I have some problems with some of what is being tought, eg. generational curses, christian demon possesion, demons "legal" right to posses you etc... Mabye someone could expound on what constitutes a legal right.Hi Lyndonwe have touched on some of these things. There may be some thoughts here which are worth re-thinking? Generational Curses

I believe the more accurate rendering is demonized.I believe a christian can be oppressed----oppression is like the pressing in.I believe sometimes christians can allow themselves to be vexed with the filthy lifestyles of the world around them.But possession is a total loss of will and once born again I believe it would take an aweful alot to turn away and become reprobate.

To as many as recieved Him he gave the power to become the sons of God????would that count?

Just a thought for everyone to considerin reguards to demon possession.Have any of you ever cast out a demon?I mean a real manisfestation of a person demonically possessed?At that moment all the theology all the greek and hebrew won't help you.If you genuinily believe christians---including yourself can have demons---don't ever even try to cast out a real demon,you won't like the results.I'm not the brightest light on the tree but I've alot of experience here and to say that binding the strong man and spoiling his house is talking about christians?sorry thats just not true.I've seen demons levitate people and things and just the simple faith of a simple believer who loves Jesus will prevail over it.As to the childrens bread?Jesus was the childrens bread---all he was and did---all he spoke and taught ---to the jews first as it were then to the gentiles.As christians we must be willing to except the fact that our flesh is to be crucified and not cast out.Sin is to be repented of and we shouldn't blame it on the devil.We are hid in Christ in heavenly places and I know that Christ doesn't have a demon in any form residing in him. Perfect love casts out all fear and while we can be vex with spirits like Job who said an evil spirit passed by and his hair stood on end we can't be possessed.We can give place but thats not in us.