Andrew Strom and Prophetic Movement

What are your thoughts on Andrew? Is anyone familiar with him beyond his ardent opposition to the prophetic movement?
He recently released a list of ministries to watch out for, saying that they practice Kundalini and Shakti.

Here is a transcript of a recent bulletin:

KUNDALINI WARNING - Urgent
-by Andrew Strom.

I just saw the video of Rick Joyner announcing that Todd Bentley
is back ministering every night at Morningstar in North Carolina
and now they have so-called "revival" manifestations eerily similar
to Lakeland. They also announced that they are streaming these
big meetings every night on their new TV channel - and they are
greatly promoting the whole thing.

Now I am a tongues-speaking Pentecostal myself - but can I ask
a simple question here please? What kind of "spirit" was it
operating in the Lakeland revival - when the leader and main focal-
point of the meetings (Todd Bentley) was having an adulterous
affair behind the scenes? Was it truly the "Holy" Spirit that was
anointing something so sensual and unholy? And now that Todd
divorced his wife and married his mistress - are we supposed to
welcome him back and this "anointing" with him? What is going
on here? Rick Joyner has been warned very specifically by high-
level ministries not to do what he is doing now - bringing Todd
Bentley back into the limelight. And yet it seems he does not
care. Apparently the "manifestations" are all that matter.

So what exactly are these 'manifestations' if they are seemingly
at home in such an unholy environment? Are they from God at
all? (I am talking here about the violent "jerking", uncontrollable
laughter, bodily contortions, drunkenness, 'portals', strange "angel"
encounters, etc.) Why do we not see such an 'anointing' in the
Bible? Why aren't Jesus or the apostles promoting these
manifestations if they really are true Revival? Why instead do we
see these things all the way through the New Age and Hinduism,
etc? Do we not realize that many false religions have their own
version of "laying on of hands" that results in these very types of
manifestations? This 'spirit' is not in the Bible - but it is all the
way through Kundalini-type Hinduism! Don't you think this should
alarm us?

WHAT is KUNDALINI?

If you search for Kundalini and Shakti on the Internet, you will find
that multitudes of people in the New Age and Eastern religions
still experience these powerful manifestations. Often this is with
the help of a Guru, who touches them on the forehead so that
they can experience a "Kundalini Awakening".

As researcher Robert Walker wrote in 1995:
"The meetings which mystic Hindu gurus hold are called 'Darshan'.
At these meetings devotees go forward to receive spiritual experience
from a touch by the open palm of the hand, often to the forehead,
by the guru in what is known as the Shakti Pat or divine touch.
The raising of the spiritual experience is called raising Kundalini…
After a period when the devotee has reached a certain spiritual
elevation they begin to shake, jerk, or hop or squirm uncontrollably,
sometimes breaking into uncontrolled animal noises or laughter
as they reach an ecstatic high. These manifestations are called
'Kriyas'. Devotees sometimes roar like lions and show all kinds
of physical signs during this period. Often devotees move on to
higher states of spiritual consciousness and become inert
physically and appear to slip into an unconsciousness..."

And as the guru Shri Yogãnandji Mahãrãja wrote:
"When Your body begins trembling, hair stands on roots, you laugh
or begin to weep without your wishing, your tongue begins to utter
deformed sounds, you are filled with fear or see frightening visions…
the Kundalini Shakti has become active."

In China there is a popular Kundalini-type movement called 'Qigong'.
When a Chinese Qigong spiritual master spoke in the USA in
1991, the San Francisco Chronicle reported that many in the crowd
began to experience "spontaneous movements". The master told
his audience, "Those who are sensitive might start having some
strong physical sensations - or start laughing or crying. Don't worry.
This is quite normal."

When you see videos of these "kriyas" or other Kundalini-type
manifestations, you would often swear that you are watching a
modern "Impartation"-type church meeting. (And I say this as
someone who believes strongly in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I just
don't believe in "alien" anointings infiltrating the Body of Christ!
There is a big difference between Kundalini and the real Holy Spirit).

Since 1993-4, I believe a foreign spirit has been allowed to invade
the church - first through Rodney Howard-Browne's ministry - then
Toronto, then the Prophetic movement (which I was part of at the
time) and on into Lakeland and many other ministries and
movements. I urge people now to "test the spirits" just as we are
commanded to in Scripture. Do not let just anyone lay hands on
you. This is a powerful spirit and it has the backing of a lot of
big-name ministries. In fact, these men and women are the very
ones responsible for allowing it to spread right through the body
of Christ. And one day they will be answerable to God for doing so.

We are specifically warned in the Bible that the Last Days will be
a time of "seducing spirits," false prophets, 'lying signs and
wonders,' and that we always need to watch for "angels of light"
masquerading as the real thing. Why does the modern church
not take these warnings seriously? Aren't we living in the very
days that the Bible warns about?

Right now I need to do something that I have never done in such
a way before. I have never before published a list of ministries or
movements to watch out for. But this time I have to. This sickness
has gone on long enough. I urge you to cut yourself off from
the following ministries and their tainted "anointings" my friends.
Even though some of these people say "good things" at times, it
is simply not worth having any involvement with them due to the
tainted anointing that they endorse or minister in themselves. Here
is the list-

(1) Todd Bentley.
(2) Rodney Howard Browne - the so-called "Holy Ghost Bartender."
(2) Rick Joyner or anyone connected with Morningstar Ministries.
(3) John Arnott & any connected with TACF (The "Toronto Blessing").
(4) Peter Wagner of the 'New Apostolic Reformation' who claims
to be head of a worldwide network of 'apostles' - who publicly
endorsed Lakeland and will soon preach at Toronto TACF alongside
other "false anointing" advocates.
(5) Mike Bickle and IHOP Kansas City (-I lived nearby for over
two years - and know how much they are into all this stuff. Mike
Bickle promotes it in his book).
(6) Bob Jones - the Kansas City prophet whose ministry is utterly
tainted by it all.
(7) Patricia King and anyone else from 'Extreme Prophetic.'
(8) John Crowder & anyone connected with "Sloshfest."
(9) Bill Johnson of Bethel church, Redding - who says some good
things but publicly endorsed Lakeland and promotes the "false
anointing" very strongly behind the scenes.
(10) Heidi & Rolland Baker of IRIS Ministries - who do good work
amongst the poor in Mozambique - but who have also carried
and promoted this tainted anointing for years.
(11) Randy Clark, Wes & Stacey Campbell, and other key
figures from the "Toronto blessing."
(12) The Elijah List - and almost anyone featured on it.

Of course there are a huge number of lesser-known preachers
and ministries who carry or endorse this Kundalini-type "anointing"
around the world. But I have concentrated here on the most
influential that I know of. It really is an enormous issue in the
church. I urge anyone who is a supporter of any of the above
ministries to really check them out thoroughly. If you find (as I have)
that they carry or endorse this false Kundalini spirit in the church,
then please stop supporting them in any way - and whatever you
do, don't let them "lay hands" on you!

I am putting everything on the line to be "naming names" like this.
But I believe it is that serious. How on earth did we get to the point
where "kriyas" just like Hinduism are spreading through the church?

Please forward this email to everyone you know, blogs and boards,
etc. These people are trying to "relaunch" this whole thing right
now. Help us get this warning out. To see a video showing "kriyas"
and other Kundalini-type manifestations, please click on the
Youtube links below-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyW1UFzS2LY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaNiuRWHZrY

Please send feedback on this article to- prophetic@revivalschool.com

God bless you all!

Andrew Strom.

--Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks Greg.

I was involved with the Vineyard/Kansas City Prophet movement at the time of the Toronto blessing, and I can affirm that what Strom is saying is accurate. The scary thing is that Rick Joyner used to be a solid Bible teacher; now I see him on YouTube presiding over lunatic meetings. I'm not familiar with all the ministries listed by Strom, but 1 through 6 are examples of what happens to people who refuse to try the spirits.

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1

Failure to "test all things and hold fast to that which is good" was the downfall of the Third Wave.

I became suspicious when some friends went to Toronto and "got the blessing." On the way home, the lady driving fell into a trance, tooled off the freeway, up an embankment and into a cow pasture. We (well, a few of us) concluded that what we were experiencing was neither divine nor demonic, but "soulish," like these kundalini experiences. This sort of ministry is really just stage hypnotism.

The scary thing is that Rick Joyner used to be a solid Bible teacher

I know, that's very troubling.

But what causes this downfall? Ambition? Some unsurrendered thing? A love for the praises of men? A love for some project, some ministry, that's greater than a love for the will of God?

1 Cor. 10.12

I've seen some of the services from this recent outpouring, they are saying that if this explodes again that it won't look like the lakeland outpouring but so far from what i've seen it looks the same. They are believing that it is going to far surpass the attention that lakeland had and be the biggest move of God ever seen.

If God chooses Todd Bentley to bring true genuine revival to the world, there is going to be some pretty confused Christians out there. What if God did use him?

God is definitly shaking things up right now.

If God chooses Todd Bentley to bring true genuine revival to the world, there is going to be some pretty confused Christians out there. What if God did use him?

God did choose Saul, renamed him and used him mightily. But Jesus changed him and gave him a new message. Todd Bentley is rehashing the same old lies. The Spirit will bear witness to God's children whether or not these things are real. If there are serious questions by solid men of God, that should be enough. Lots of talk about Jesus but little of the cross and even less of repentance. 2 Peter 2:14.

Number 8 brought me to tears one night. He is especially dangerous, as most of these are, to "pentecostal" young people. The gifts are taught and the Bible encourages us to seek the gifts, and these men seek to destroy using that which is meant to edify. I saw on youtube a video of this man holding a meeting full of teens spouting his false message and these kids were just eating it up. He bases his message on 1 Peter 1:8 saying that we should walk around drunk in the Spirit, or high. I can't even go into it. Don't look for it, don't look for it. If you hear his name, run.

These false gospels are so very dangerous. They put on a good show and sound good, but they distort the blessedly simple gospel. Saints hear this, believe and then don't understand why God isn't blessing them, getting them high, or whatever it is and they leave the faith. The biggest problem is Christians aren't reading their Bibles. Read 2 Peter chapter 2. He is talking about these men. The gospel is simple. It is Christ and Him crucified.

This was shared with me and I thought it was worth posting here.
God Bless
mj
____________________________________________________________
Before John the Baptist was beheaded he prophesied that God would endue His church with power. He announced that Jesus Christ would give His church a double portion of His Spirit. John said: "He [Jesus] will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" (Matt. 3:11, NASB, emphasis added). When the day of Pentecost arrived, sure enough, both wind and fire were evident. True Pentecost has both.

We've known the wind. We have felt "times of refreshing" in the Holy Spirit's renewing presence. We've enjoyed His healing, and experienced His gifts, life, and power from the Spirit.

And sometimes, because of immaturity, some try to use the Holy Spirit's power to feed selfish desires or meet emotional needs.

But genuine Pentecost does not consist of wind alone. It's not just about noise or feelings. John said Jesus would baptize us in fire as well as power. What is the fire of the Spirit?

Fire has a refining element. John the Baptist said: "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and he will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt. 3:12). When it comes to Pentecost, holiness is not a side issue. It is the essence of the Holy Spirit's work. When He comes in power, He also comes to burn up the sin in our lives. He comes with conviction, searching our motives, uprooting our unforgiveness and shattering our pride.

Our problem is that we treat the whole scene in Acts 2 as if it were a party. We want hoopla instead of the fear of God. We spend all our time splashing in the shallow end of His river when He has deeper things for us. We are afraid to embrace Jesus' winnowing fork, and we resist when the fire of His Spirit comes to burn up our selfishness.

My Bible says wind and fire appeared on the day of Pentecost. We will not see Pentecost-style harvest without both. I pray you will ask for the double portion.
-Lee Grady

I appreciate Andrew detailing what these movements look like, how they act...

When Bentley was at Lakeland, I looked at the videos of this 'ministry' while there. As I recall his performance matched the descriptions shared by Andrew. Scary.

You know, it is mighty near impossible for a body to know everything about every aberrant movement out there. But if we follow the Spirit's leading, when he gives us red flags, we do well to listen, back off even when we do not know the fine details of why. Life has proven many times that failure to do so will invite hurt and getting burned.

Thanks for posting this informative article, Giggles.

ginnyrose

by Mahoney

I guess my question is: why in the world do we need movements? Isn't the Gospel good enough?

I don't say this lightly nor to make them out to be evil, b/c I don't think they are. I don't think they woke up one morning and said, "I want to be deceived today and deceive others." !!

We HAVE TO [b]remember Christ's last prayer[/b] for the very ones who killed Him, "Forgive them, they know not what they do."

by Mahoney

Well, actually they are evil...and so am I...and so are you.

And that's the first step in understanding the Gospel. We are all evil and wicked and we love a lie. We love to suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

If I understand how wicked I really am, then Christ will become my treasure, my all, and I will not seek movements or manifestations, or "words" or whatever....I will seek Christ.

I understand where you are coming from; but with my personality if I continually lived with what you have just written, I would be hopeless. So I, too, will seek Christ but with hope b/c I believe that when God ripped the veil from top to bottom; God, Himself, visually showed us that we have now been made righteous, and no longer will our sin keep us from His presence.

Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, [i]let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.[/i]
Hebrews 10:19-22

Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; [i]blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not reckon his sin.[/i]
Romans 4:6-8

And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, [i]God made alive together with him[/i], having forgiven us all our trespasses, having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; [i]this he set aside, nailing it to the cross[/i].
Colossians 2:13,14

I know how evil I am Mahoney but I also know how great God is and that I cannot be victorious over any sin in myself unless God allows me to be victorious! I don't understand it all but I know that "I can do nothing without Him" and that helps me to understand that I am accepted no matter how evil anyone says that I am!

God bless you!

Good word, Lysa.

Anyway, we can't get inside Todd Bentley' poor brain and determine whether he is sincere. We do know that sincerity is no guarantee against deception if we neglect to "try the spirits." 1 John 4:1 William Branham was a simple minded man who appeared to be very sincere, but we know he wasn't the real deal because he didn't preach Christ - all he talked about was himself and his revelations...like Bentley. But Branham appears to have worked genuine healing miracles...unlike Bentley.

When my friends and I got on our "power evangelism" kick, we were sincere. In fact, we got pulled into it when a minister singled me out at a signs and wonders seminar and gave me the gift of "laying on of hands." I laid hands on people and it felt like 120 volts of electricity was running thru my hands, and the people I prayed for looked like they really were being electrocuted! They would tremble violently and then collapse to the floor, sobbing. But after a few years of "signs and wonders" we weren't seeing the sort of spiritual fruit that you would expect to accompany all these spectacular "manifestations of the Spirit." I never could shake the feeling that there was something fishy in all this.

Penn-lewis' War on the Saints and jonathan Edwards' Religious Affections both state that counterfeit spiritual experiences begin with physical sensations. The Spirit works from the inside out, revealing the mystery of salvation to the inner man; lying spirits operate on the flesh with tingling, thrills of fire and other enjoyable sensations. The latter describes the experiences people have under Hunter's and Joyner's ministry. But nothing happeming under their ministries requires a supernatural explanation - it could stage hypnotism and mass hysteria, nothing more. I'm not sure whether we should assign the blame to demonic activity or human folly.

Hello...

I believe that there are prophets...and that they can exist and operate in the gift today. However, there are so many people who fancy themselves to be prophets who are truly not. In fact, I think that some of them actually believe that they are. I have noticed that the words of many would-be prophets are mingled with sectarian ideology, but packaged in a way that makes it seem like it comes straight from God Himself. I can't help but wonder if those "prophets" have truly weighed the ease in which they speak for God. It would be a terrible thing to (even unwittingly) place words into the mouth of God.

Some of these often almost feel justified when they are rejected, as if those who reject or test their words are testing the undeniable words of God Himself. When they spread their sectarian words that come across as brash or bitter, they almost comfort themselves in their rejection.

While I was a teenager, one would-be prophet used to share his "prophet words of knowledge" quite readily. He would speak for God and tell people things that came across as if God were speaking in the first person through his mouth. Ironically, he was wrong most of the time. The things that he was NOT wrong about were often generic words that merely lined up with common understanding of the Word of God. People stopped hanging out with this guy. He was extremely abrasive, but falsely identified this with what he considered the characteristic of a prophet amongst real Christians.

In fact, this same guy used to take comfort in his rejection. He once confided that people didn't like him because he was a "prophet." I asked him, "Is it because you are a prophet, or is it because you are just mean?" Needless to say, he didn't take my question with a "grain of salt." He continued to speak out as if he were a prophet...to the point that he was eventually asked to refrain from doing so. He "shook the dust" off his shoulders and shoes and moved on to a congregation that embraced his "words." He even talked a girl into marrying him (after he told her that God told him that they would be married). However, he "wore out his welcome" at that congregation soon enough...and eventually fell into sin.

When I see certain men like Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn and even those seemingly sincere believers who try to publicly present or proclaim themselves as prophets, I just want to weep. There has never been a greater need for prophets than in this day and age! As brother Ravenhill said, "We desperately need the Elijahs of God!" However, so many who might even truly think themselves to be prophets just seem to "miss" it so often (even if they don't realize it). Yet there many believers -- especially those who are Pentecostal or Charismatic -- who are more welcoming of those "words" uttered in a "prophetic" manner. Ultimately, we should be of the Berean attitude (Acts 17:11). We should TEST EVERYTHING (I Thessalonians 5:21) -- no matter who says it. I believe that a true prophet will welcome such a test.

Hi Neil...

Good points! I was thinking about rephrasing my first sentence just a bit: [i]I believe that there are believers who exist and operate in the gift of prophecy today[/i]. I think that God truly works "all in all" as He sees fit (I Corinthians 12:6).

I agree with you that an apostle or prophet or pastor doesn't have to go about proclaiming what he is (or what he thinks he is). An evangelist is an evangelist because of what he does...and not because he says, "[i]Hi, I'm an evangelist[/i]." I think that you hit the proverbial "nail on the head" when you mentioned Uzziah and the sons of Sceva.

Now, most of the would-be "prophets" that I have encountered haven't specifically proclaimed themselves as such. It seems like they work through the assumptions of men. They utter "prophetic words" and then question the faith or integrity of those who dare to test or question their words. Thus, they announce that they are prophets without actually making an announcement (if that makes sense).

Still, I feel that we need men who are bold to proclaim the things that God has shown them...but while demonstrating the love of Christ as every syllable leaves their mouths. I just would pray that men would know the difference between what is from God and what is from their intellect BEFORE they speak...and make such a distinction if there is any doubt. I suppose that the greatest tragedy is that many of the more sincere modern-day "prophets" just can't seem to make such an inward distinction.

Thank you for your reminder, brother.

any REAL prophet would NEVER say, breath, think, "I'm a prophet"...

A word of caution brother, but this has no Biblical support to this statement whatsoever. There is no more arrogance in saying "I am a prophet" than saying "I am a teacher" or "I am a pastor." Throughout all of the Scriptures, men of God regularly recognized the ministry God had called them into. Indeed, it may come with utter humility that a man says, "I have a prophetic ministry."

One of the things that seem to bother me is that these folks seem to hold a secondary view of the scriptures. It seems that they assert that the Holy Spirit does something he is not called to do which is exalt men. One of the key marks of the Holy Spirits work is to exalt christ,he works repentance and faith by means of regeneration and after all is said and done conforms men to the image of christ which is sanctification. In these so called revivals that seems absent. I see people in these so called revivals taking faith in men and in themselves, desiring gifts only but not the giver and casting the scriptures away for so called prophetic visions and dreams. Jesus becomes a means to an end not the Alpha and Omega and sovereign King that he truly is. I mean whatever happened to the gospel ?

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
I was thinking about rephrasing my first sentence just a bit: I believe that there are believers who exist and operate in the gift of prophecy today. I think that God truly works "all in all" as He sees fit (I Corinthians 12:6).

Actually, your first statement was “more” correct! Just because someone prophesy’s does not mean they are a prophet. Prophets prophesy but not all who prophesy is a prophet!

True prophets remind me of Jesus as a lamb going to the slaughter; he never uttered a word in His defense. His one concern was for His disciples, not Himself; “It’s me you seek, let these others go.”

Amen Bro Neil, “It’s He who God recommends, not he who recommends himself!” (2 Cor 10.18) When the disciples went out, it’s says [b]the Lord worked with them[/b], and confirmed the word they preached with signs following!!! (Mark 16.20)

Which makes one wonder.... if what is being preached today isn’t being confirmed, then what is it exactly that is being preached? This includes every type of church out there.

Hi,

I've been listening in on this discussion for a while. I have only heard about things from afar they have left me wondering. The article by Strom crystalized some things I had felt but been unable to articulate. My brother was involved in the Vineyard movement around the time of the "Toronto Blessing" and never receiving it wondered what was wrong with him. Having learned more about these movements, I realize just much he was in fact blessed by this.

Recently, the Lord has used some teaching here on SI plus personal revelation of Himself that I feel sheds some light on discerning the true from the false. In some of Art Katz' sermons he speaks about the wisdom of the world, the Powers of the Air, and how it was demonstrated through the crucifiction of Jesus Christ. The Powers used raw power, deciept and brutality to Christ on the cross. However, when Jesus rose from the dead a greater power was demonstrated but this was a pure, clean and gentle stength that was not showy. I think the sermon that Art discusses this is entitled "And They Crucified Him." In my own life, the Lord showed me what this means. I tend to understand things intuitively so in a time where I had come to the end of doing things according to my own wil and turned to do what the Father had instructed me, He showed me a glimpse of His character through a vision in my spirit/mind. What He showed me was akin to a white glowing cloud but it was pure, transparent and yet hidden. It was holy and pure but gentle, possessing complete control. Words are hard to accurately express it but this stood against the background of the things I had been viewing that were powerful in a showy manner that are designed to invoke pride and covetousness in their viewers.

In relation to these movements and individuals, when one knows the presence and voice of the Holy Spirit, comparing His life with these it becomes clear where they are from. I realize that this sounds merely mystical but it is one means by which we can test the spirits that are at work.

Another thing the Lord has been teaching me is from John 10 about Jesus being the Good Shepherd and how his sheep hear His voice and follow Him. Then from 1 John, we are instructed that we need to have no one teach us because the Holy Spirit will let us know those who bear the spirit of the antichrist. There have been many times where the Spirit has borne witness that a teacher is not speaking His word, whether claiming to be Spirit filled or not. Some times I could perceive it but other times I had to take it on faith.

On last thought on the matter regarding prophesy, after reading this thread, the Lord brought me to a sermon by David Wilkerson that takes place in about 1990 where he talks about how the Lord warned him and the other pastors of Times Square Church and had them down on Wall Street during Black Friday, 1987. For those who have been reading the forums lately, this is the sermon where he states he is not a prohet but a watchman, stating how he had been very wrong at times in the past. He then tells how before he speaks something he feels prophetic that the Lord has laid on his heart, he seeks to discover the principles in Scripture before sharing them.

The Collapse of New York City
http://media.sermonindex.net/16/SID16983.mp3

King Jimmy, there t'is!

2 Cor 10:18

You do realize this was written by a man who introduced himself as an apostle in every letter he wrote, right? Paul made frequent mention of his apostleship. But Paul did this in utter humility. He did this not to bring attention to himself, but, the Lord whom he served. One can talk about one's ministry and calling, no matter what it is, either in utter humility, or in total pride. To merely mention, however, what you are in Jesus, if you are in fact such, is actually a humbling thing. Who is adequate for these things?

Some people definitely flash their ministry around to draw attention to themselves and push themselves on others.

Blessings to you Neil.

Lysa, Chris & KingJimmy all have hit nerves of agreement with my spirit, not saying the others didn't, but these clicked.

I want to share that I have been to about 6 Morningstar conferences and have followed the ministry in cd's and writing since 1994, along with many other ministries. I have never seen any of these weird manifestations that you are talking about, not saying they haven't happened, I just never saw them.

Also I have never heard anyone stand up and declare themselves a "prophet", although there has been prophecy taking place at times.

I have just seen a group of people getting together to worship the Lord and have heard sound biblical teaching, with open bible and humility the times I have been there. I have never seen any of the strutting pride I have seen in some other ministries.

Having said that I must admit that the Todd Bentley thing bothers me because of the things cited. I watched one piece of a Lakeland meeting on TV and didn't feel right about it. I also believe that we need to follow a biblical pattern with regards to marriage and feel the church by and large, everywhere, is ignoring the importance of these words straight from Jesus' mouth. No divorce, except in the case of fornication and instead of living that, the body has mirrored the world and has no conviction about it. Salt and light we aren't.

Now I hate to be redundant, but the most important thing for us to do as Christians is to focus on Jesus and His kingdom. We are all in danger of not living the life He has called us to, and hearing Him say, "I never knew you". We can debate who is real and false till we are blue in the face, but only God can know what really is in a man's heart. The tares and the wheat look just the same until the harvest. Then it will be clearly seen what spirit we are of. I fear being an accuser of the brethern myself and then God telling me that man was more loving than me. Again I would urge you all to read Bonhoeffer's "The Cost of Discipleship", of you alread did, do it again.

I think we can only go by what God reveals to us individually from His word. When we feel the check in our spirit, something is yicky, is what I can it, don't do that. When you feel the Holy Spirit witness that what you are participating in has His stamp of authenticity on it, do that. We need to be constantly in prayer for God to direct our paths and to give us discernment. He will.

Last I love Andrew Strom, David Wilkerson, Heidi Baker, Rick Joyner, Mike Bickle, William Branham, and even Todd Bentley because they are the brethern. I will not know which are tares or wheat until the harvest. All I can really do is make sure I am seeking God to give me what I need to live a crucified sermon on the mount life. With the measure I judge, I will be judged. If I show mercy, I will recieve it. If we all focus on what we need to do to have our own hearts right, we will have clear vision to see what is God and what is not.

Love you guys and gals too.

In a book I was reading recently on the subject of preaching, the author declared that God isn't as interested in giving messages as He is in making messengers. Or to wax something Art Katzian, he wants the preacher to be "the thing in itself." The man is to be the message. Where the man is not the message, the Scriptures warn us to be very weary of such individuals. No amount of charisma can ever make up for character. There should never be a great disconnect.

Oh, and the only reason Joyner is so interested in "restoring" Bentley is because he and a lot of other prophets are really having to "save face" in regard to the numerous prophecies they made about this being the great move of God that would bring about corporate maturity, etc. They are driven and bound and determined to make this movement work, and all for their benefit. They are trying to rebuild something God destroyed in His anger.

In a book I was reading recently on the subject of preaching, the author declared that God isn't as interested in giving messages as He is in making messengers. Or to wax something Art Katzian, he wants the preacher to be "the thing in itself." The man is to be the message. Where the man is not the message, the Scriptures warn us to be very weary of such individuals. No amount of charisma can ever make up for character. There should never be a great disconnect.

Amen.

wayneman mentioned War on the Saints. I had never heard of it before. Turns out the book has a pretty large following, so there is a lot of good and of course a few haters. I guess it was originally written around the time of the Welsh Revival of 1904 with Evan Roberts. It seemed interesting so I looked around and found this online copy. I'd encourage you to browse it and any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[url=http://www.apostasynow.com/wots/Contents.html]War on the Saints[/url]

War on the Saints has some excellent guidelines for discerning the spirits. There are passages, especially in the appendix, that describe Lakeland to a tee. It is controversial because it teaches that Christians can be demon-possessed. Most editions today are abridged to exclude that doctrine. A full text is available at Lighthouse Libraries. I'm going to skim thru it again this weekend.

I've wanted to comment but I've been running in and out all week so better late than never!

As far as I know, Bentley has not monetarily reimbursed those who donated heavily to the movement... those who were not healed as promised...

As God's people, we NEED to resolve within ourselves to live honestly and peaceability with all men.

Well anyway, I agreed with everything you wrote, I just picked out that one portion!

God bless you, cc~!

We do know that sincerity is no guarantee against deception if we neglect to "try the spirits." 1 John 4:1 William Branham was a simple minded man who appeared to be very sincere, but we know he wasn't the real deal because he didn't preach Christ - all he talked about was himself and his revelations...like Bentley. But Branham appears to have worked genuine healing miracles...unlike Bentley.

Thank you!! and God bless!!

War on the Saints has some excellent guidelines for discerning the spirits. There are passages, especially in the appendix, that describe Lakeland to a tee. It is controversial because it teaches that Christians can be demon-possessed. Most editions today are abridged to exclude that doctrine. A full text is available at Lighthouse Libraries. I'm going to skim thru it again this weekend.

Interesting. I heard some of the original diagrams were taken out too...maybe they were in reference to Christian possession. Can you post a link for Lighthouse Libraries? I searched but couldn't find it.

****EDIT**** Found it!!

Sorry, it's [url=lighthouselibrary.org]Light House Library[/url] not "Libraries." It has a lot of free e-books by Nee, Grubb, Penn-Lewis, etc.

It's wild wayneman, the more I research this book the more controversey I find. Strong advocates both for and against it.

The pros say Penn-Lewis has was on to something great, has 'penned' one of the greatest works in Christian literature that all Christians should read, and that it was so spot-on accurate there is a conspiracy afoot in the priniting of the abridged version (and some of the unabridged reprints) that remove crucial content (specifically the doctrine that Christians can be possessed and some various diagrams).

On the con side, it is said that Penn is the cause for suppressing the Welsh Revival, intimidating Roberts into uncertainty (and emotional breakdown) about what God was doing, creating a confusing labrynth of demon doctrine that indecipherably blurs the line of their influence and legitimate divine manifestations to where an almost paranoia sets in over spiritual activity, and she quotes "lost" writings by Christ Himself that have been held up as equal with the Bible.

I must say it has been fascinating researching the book because of this controversy. There is definitely something here either extremely beneficial for the Kingdom or something terribly amiss. There is too much mystery and draw for it to be otherwise.

What are your takes on it?

I read somewhere that Evan Roberts later repudiated the book; Penn-Lewis never did. What to make of it? I don' know for sure, but in my spirit it has sort of a dull ring to it. It isn't vibrant like her other books. It is worth reading because it explores realities that are almost never addressed, and because its descriptions of counterfeit spiritual experiences so closely parallel the Lakeland, Toronto and Bentley blessings. It also explores a side of the Welsh Revival that is omitted from the glowing histories we've read. But it seems to have been written in fear, as if Jessie and Evan were still shaking from some terror they'd experienced. My verdict: read it, but read it quickly and take it with a grain of salt.

To your original question about Andrew Strom. If the measure of a man is in part a reflection from his family than Andrew is safe. The favor of God rests on him and his family. I supose they are human just like the rest of us, but he has a message and it's not always easy to go against the tide. The ministries he is warning about? I personally don't know any of them, I haven't run in those circles, I don't really watch tv, or very little, even christian tv, when something big happens i usually am aware of it at the tail end. In TB case I begged God to let it be real. Romans says to judge nothing before the time, so I'm real slow about things, especially in the church. TB shouldn't be in any visiable ministry at all, he would do well to take a lowly place and complete his repentance. And you don't need discernment to see the fruits of repentance, so I really don't need to know his heart, he'll repeat the same failure again and again only it'll be hid better next time.
I do believe, however that good men can make mistakes and I supose that may be the case with some of the people on Andrews list. The outward manifestations are also common and can be plainly seen in scripture, but the end result is a Fear of the Lord, that usually what the Holy Spirit produces as He does whats needed in the lives of believers in showing them Christ. The giftings were intended to make us like Jesus and therefore the manifestations likewise, we are changed from glory to glory.

On a personal level, I appreciate men of God who study out situations like the ones Andrew tackled and they bring forth knowledge, but at the end of the day every individual has to be fully convinced in thier own minds before thier Creator and walk accordingly. I would say that those who Fear the Lord all the day will have continual divine guidence and will be free from deceptions of all types. Rember Carter Conlon warned of a false holiness movement too, so as the pendulm swings the opposite way lets not throw out the baby with the bath water. The gifts are real and when the Holy Spirit manifests people react differently, shaking, crying, laughter, falling, etc...God doesn't opperate on our (emotional/intellectual) comfort level. Maybe the church needs a fresh baptism of the Fear of the Lord?

After reading the posts on this thread, I did some research on the "kundalini" spirit mentioned. After a few minutes, I came across a video called "Holy Spirit or Kundalini Spirit Breakout?" This was of an actual church service, and I couldn't bear to watch this horrible pagan gathering! I wanted to tell all the people in the video, "The LORD rebuke you! The LORD rebuke you all!"

One viewer's comment echoed my own thoughts: "This has to be one of the sickest videos I have seen lately, and I am utterly convinced that if the one they are being led and moved by is of God the Father in Heaven, then I am destined to Hell without doubt, for whatever spirit was motivating those in this video literally made my skin crawl!"

Good word appolus. Zac Poonen expands this thought and more in the article "Counterfeit Revival:"

Jesus and the apostles repeatedly warned that the last days would be characterized by widespread deception and a multitude of false prophets (Matt.24:3-5,11,24; 1 Tim.4:1) - and we have seen plenty of them in the last few decades.

Why are millions of Christians deceived by these false prophets and these counterfeit "revivals"? And why are so many preachers falling prey to immorality and greed?

Here are what I see to be some of the main causes:

1. Most Christians today are not aware of what the New Testament teaches, because they have not studied it carefully; and so they follow the teachings of their leaders and not the teachings of the New Testament.

2. Miracles (supernatural gifts) have become more important to them than their character (a supernatural life).

3. Material wealth has become more important to them than spiritual wealth.

4. They are unable to distinguish between soulish frenzy or psychological manipulation, and the genuine moving of the Holy Spirit; the cause again is ignorance of the New Testament.

5. They are unable to distinguish between psychosomatic healing (healing that comes by right attitudes of the mind), and supernatural healing in Jesus' Name.

6. Emotional excitement and strange physical manifestations have become more important to them than the inward joy of the Lord.

7. For the leaders, their ministry to people has become more important than their inner walk with God.

8. The approval of men has become more important to these leaders than the approval of God.

9. The number of people attending the meetings has become more important to these leaders than whether those people are totally committed to Christ.

10. Building their personal kingdoms and their financial empires has become more important to these leaders than building a local church and making themselves servants in that local church (Jeremiah 6:13).

All this is the VERY OPPOSITE of what Jesus taught. The opposite of Christ is called the "anti-Christ" in the New Testament. If Christians do not see this clearly, then when the Antichrist turns up on the world's stage, with his false signs and wonders (2 Thess.2:3-10), they too will blindly accept him. To be led by the Spirit of Christ is to have the very opposite spirit to that mentioned in the points above.

Here is a paraphrase of Jesus' words in Matthew 7:13-27 (read in the context of Matthew Chapters 5 to 7):

"Both the gate and the way to ETERNAL LIFE are very narrow - as I have just described (Matt. 5 to 7). But false prophets will come along and tell you that the gate and way are not narrow but easy and broad. Beware of them. You will be able to identify them easily by observing the fruit of their character: Do they live a life free from anger, free from lusting after women, free from the love of money and free from anxiously seeking after material wealth (as worldly people seek)? Do they preach against these things as I have done here? (Matt.5:21-32 and 6:24-34). These false prophets may exercise many supernatural gifts and do miracles and actually heal people in My Name, but I will still send them all to hell in the final day, because they did not know Me (as THE HOLY ONE) and they did not give up sin in their private lives (Matt.7:21-23). So if you want to build a church on a rock that will never shake or fall in time or eternity, be careful to do all that I have just spoken to you (Matt. 5 to 7) and teach your people to do all that I have commanded you too. Then I will be with you always and My authority will always back you (Matt.28:20, 18). But if you only hear what I say and don't do it, then what you build may look like a large and impressive church to men, but it will surely crumble and fall one day (Matt.7:25)."

How then shall we build an unshakeable church in these last days?

1. We must live the sermon on the mount (Matthew 5 to 7) and preach it constantly.

2. We must live in the new-covenant and not in the old-covenant. For this, we must know the difference between the two covenants clearly (2 Cor.3:6). We must also preach the new covenant.

When preachers fall into serious sin today, they justify themselves by (and find their comfort in) the examples of Old Testament saints who also fell into sin. And then they re-commence their ministry after a period of silence. They quote the examples of David who committed adultery, and Elijah who got depressed, and they say "But God still used them"! But they won't quote the example of Paul who lived in victory and purity until the end of his life.

What these preachers (and most Christians) have not seen is that the Old Testament saints are NOT our examples today. We have been given much more in this age of grace - and "to whom more is given, more is required" (Luke 12:48). Jesus is the Mediator of a NEW covenant and HE is our Example and the Author of our faith today - not David or Elijah. The distinction between the Old Testament saints (listed in Hebrews 11) and Jesus, is made very clear in Hebrews 12:1-4. But very few live in the reality of this. Very few have seen that "God has provided something BETTER for us" in the new covenant (Heb.11:40).

Any of us can fall in the way that many preachers have fallen, if we are not watchful and alert - for Satan is a cunning enemy. Our safety lies in obeying New Testament teaching exactly and in submitting to godly leadership. (And by "godly" leadership, I mean those who do not have even one of the wrong values listed in the ten points I mentioned earlier). If we learn from the mistakes of others, we can avoid making the same mistakes ourselves.

So let us keep our faces in the dust before the Lord at all times - for it is there that we will receive Divine revelation, as John did (Rev.1:17). If we humble ourselves, we will receive grace to be overcomers (1 Pet.5:5). And when the Holy Spirit shows us the truth in God's Word and the truth about ourselves, let us be totally honest and "love the truth, so as to be saved" from all sin. That way we will be protected by God Himself from all deception (2 Thess. 2:10,11). Amen.

Here's another:

DECEPTION THROUGH FALSE SIGNS AND WONDERS
by Zac Poonen

There is a lot of deception in Christendom these days through false signs and wonders – just as Jesus warned us in Matthew 24:24, and as Paul did in 2 Thessalonians 2:9.

Paul also warned us in 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 about the nature of this deception: It is being deceived by another Jesus, another spirit and another gospel.

"Another Jesus" – who does not ask anyone to take up his cross and to die to his self-life daily.
"Another spirit" – who gives people thrills and exciting feelings but does not give them power to be holy.
"Another gospel" – that requires no repentance and that caters to people’s earthly needs but does not deliver them from sin (which is the root-cause of ALL their problems).

Thus people are being made “twofold the children of hell” (Matt.23:15).
To escape deception, we must look at Jesus and see how today’s preachers compare with Him.
1. Do they have the same primary objective?

The very FIRST promise in the New Testament is "Jesus - He will save His people from their sins" (Matt.1:21). This is the main purpose with which Jesus came to earth. So a truly Spirit-led ministry will seek to free people from sinning. Everything else – including healing and miracles and prophecy will be secondary.

2. Do they have the same attitude?

We are commanded in Scripture: “Let this attitude be in you which was in Christ Jesus” (Phil.2:5). We should therefore compare the attitude of every preacher with that of Jesus. We should ask ourselves these questions about every preacher we hear:

(i) Is he a humble man - as Jesus was?

(ii) Does he lead people to freedom from sin and genuine holiness – as Jesus did?

(iii) Does he ask people to give money to him or to his ministry? Jesus never did.

(iv) Can ordinary, poor people contact him easily – as they could contact Jesus?
For further confirmation, we could ask these questions as well:

(a) Does he lead people to Christ – and not to himself?

(b) Are his children God-fearing?

(c) Has he built at least one godly church?

(d) Are his main co-workers godly men?

3. Do they have the same approach to healing?

In the Gospels, we do not read of Jesus preaching even one sermon on how to receive miracles or healing. But He actually healed thousands of people.
In Acts of the Apostles, we do not read of the apostles preaching even one sermon on how to receive miracles or healing. But they actually healed many people. (The 21 epistles in the New Testament also make no mention of physical healing at all – except for one passage in James 5:14,15, where it is the elder who is urged to have faith and not the sick person!)

But what we find today (especially over Christian TV) is the exact opposite of this: We hear hundreds of sermons on miracles and healings – but we hardly ever see any genuine, miraculous healings. Most of the so-called “healings” shown over TV have proven to be fakes or unsubstantiated by independent sources.

Jesus and the apostles did however speak a lot about being free from sin. But we hardly ever hear a sermon today (over TV or from church pulpits) on how to be free from sins like anger, lusting after women and the love of money (as Jesus preached in Matthew chapters 5 and 6).

In Scripture, there is a name for anything that is the opposite of what Christ did: “anti-Christ”. Today, this spirit of antichrist has spread widely in evangelical Christendom. This is one proof that Satan has penetrated Christendom deeply with deception.

Why does God allow deceivers among His people?

In Deuteronomy 13:1-3, we are told why God allows such deceivers to move freely among His people:

“If a prophet arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, `Let us go after other gods and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul”.
God allows false prophets to do real signs and wonders and to prophesy things that come true, in order to test His children – to see whether they love Him or the gods that the false prophets invite them to follow. Two of the main gods that false prophets invite Christians to follow these days are the gods of “money” and “entertainment”.

Money. People are urged to seek for wealth and health by giving money to the preacher’s ministry. Peter however rebuked the magician Simon when he tried to give Peter money in order to purchase God’s gifts (Acts 8:18-23).
Entertainment. Churches have become places of entertainment where worldly music styles and other worldly programs are promoted to attract people. Thus Satan (the ruler of this world system) has succeeded in making Christians worldly-minded and ineffective for God.

Millions of Christians follow the teachings of these false prophets today because such teachings satisfy their fleshly lusts. Thus these false gods have become the idols that Christians worship in most churches today.

He who has ears to hear let him hear.