Demon Possesion from the Prophetic Movement / Todd Bentley / IHOP / etc. -Kundalani spirits

Well, this certainly helps answer my question as to whether these manifestations are psychological or demonic. The tragedy is that this deception is not like the health and wealth gospel, which appeals to the covetous and the worldly; it is a deception aimed at honest believers seeking the fullness of the Spirit. We cannot emphasize enough the need to try the spirits. 1 John 4:1

Hi Neil...

[url=http://www.freshfireusa.com/]Todd Bentley (look at the top of his head)[/url]

Yeah, it made me laugh too. Those flames look a lot like horns, don't they?

:-P

God have mercy on his soul....prayer is our weapon and His balm

Bless you brother.

It is after a long long long time that i was able to read some articles here. This was the first post that I read and it brought great sorrow …

The verse that came to memory was 'Love does not rejoice in the wrong. Love bears all things –hopes all things …'

The prodigal story told by our savior Jesus Christ speaks about a son within the family who left home to ……. The story reminded me that our God is still waiting – if the heart of God is weeping for one child to come back who are we to laugh at Todd Bentley.

I was looking at Todd Bentley's upcoming events to see who could be speaking for his events. I see that he himself is the main speaker for all events. Will it not be a great day of rejoicing
if we would be burdened to pray
for a soul deceived by Satan to be delivered –
for this soul to realize the error of his ways
and repent-
that his eyes be opened to see a holy God…
that fresh fire –holy fire from heaven would consume everything unholy.

I am thankful to SI for having this forum where we are made aware of these things. Yes, post like this prompts us to watch and pray all the more--- at the same time encourages us not to be like the world- impatient-unkind -arrogant-rude but that we be full of love-mercy-patience-goodness-kindness...
"Lord help us to be on our face praying till we see satans grip broken. We need your grace to pray-to be burdened for lost souls. Help me heavenly father-help me-help us. In Jesus name amen."

Thank you Jesusloves for sharing. As members of the body of Christ we need to weep between the porch and the altar for those we believer to be in error or bound by the enemy. We also need to be very careful because there may be issues in our own hearts that grieve God just as much. What about greed, lusting with our eyes, gossiping, revealing secrets that we are intrusted with, taking a brother to court, watching ungodly programs, ignoring those in need? The list is endless. We need to clean up our own backyards before we can clearly fix everybody else.

I agree that there is much flesh in these things, but does it cause us to fast, and weep and pray or just point the finger?

God can restore anyone and we need to love every member of the body enough to seek God for them. Love looks like something. Forgiveness is required for us to recieve it.

Also it is pretty risky to assume that just because folks went into a meeting and had some of the things described that it was the leader of the meetings fault. Some folks have problems before they got there, maybe years of demonic activity and they would have had the same problem in a Baptist or Church of Christ service. I have attended meetings that made my skin crawl, but it didn't make me want to do what they were doing. I am just saying we might be blaming our own fleshly reactions on somebody when we need to check out our own hearts.

When we keep ourselves in the love of God, seeking His face, reading is word, praying, fasting, taking up our cross daily, we can be sure not demonic spirit is going to get the mastery over us. It is only when we walk straddling the fence, half heartedly that we leave doors open to the enemy.

I will keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on me, because he trusteth in me. God is able to keep that which we committ unto Him against that day. We do not have to walk around afraid demons are going to jump on us if we keep ourselves in the love of God. We are more than conquerors through Him.

When we seek God to fix things and not for just Himself we are on shakey ground already. When we have doves eyes and focus only on Him nothing can get us off center. We would see Jesus. This is my beloved son, hear ye him. There is safety in the place of total surrender to His kingship.

and i laughed at just

It might help you if you were to look up the word "laugh" in Strong's...you may be surprised how often it occurs. What is more surprising is how often it says that God laughs at the wicked.

Here are some references:
Psalms 2:4
Psalms 37:13
Psalms 59:8
Psalms 52:6
Proverbs 1:26

ginnyrose

it is a deception aimed at honest believers seeking the fullness of the Spirit.

That is what bothers me the most about it. Have you ever tried to tell someone what they are doing is sinful and displeasing to God when their pastor is endorsing it from the pulpit? A lot of these teachings have become commonplace in our churches. I feel it's the same as the health and wealth, and name it and claim it teachings that are out there. Churches actually have John Crowder come and speak. I attend a pentecostal church and people in these churches believe in manifestations and are taught to seek the gifts of the Holy Spirit. This makes these sort of wolves very dangerous to young people especially at these churches. 2 Peter 2:2-3 and 2 Peter 2:18 are good examples of these people. They use the desires of the flesh, whether manifestations or money, to entice. Both are equally dangerous. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, which is why these people distort it to their own desires.

I'm as guilty as anyone of getting in silly moods and indulging in "foolish talk (and) jesting, which are not convenient." Eph. 5:4 But when we are in the right spirit, humor is a legitimate weapon in the Christian arsenal. There is no better way to disaffect people to something than getting them to laugh at it. Consider Isaiah's satire of the idolator who uses half a log to make a god and the other half to cook his dinner. Is. 44:14-16 should we scold Isaiah for joking about something serious? Granted, the Bible's use of humor is limited. But I don't see any passage of Scripture that tells us to pray for false prophets. We're not even supposed to bid them godspeed. 2 John 10

Good word HooHoou. Pentecostal/charismatics understand that the Lord moves in strange ways, so it is not a huge leap for John Crowder or Bentley to take it a step further and say that the Lord moves in silly ways.

I believe ccrider has stated the matter carefully and lovingly. My concern was the lack of love and concern for anyone that is believed in error. Do we stamp them as rejects or love them enough to be truly broken hearted over their condition. I do not condone the stupid stuff that goes on in some circles, but I feel the word says I am to love the brethern. Well we might ask who is our brother? Only the the separation of the tares and wheat will reveal that for sure. Until then I will treat all that speak the name of Jesus, other than a cuss word, as a brother and intercede for them that they will walk in truth. We must alway err on the side of love.

1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jo 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jo 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.
1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels [of compassion] from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

We need to test the spirits, whether they be of God, but we need to love those in error enough to truly be broken and grieving for them and crying out until their eyes are open. You might say but they never listen. You don't know the end until the end. While it is still day we can work.

Also when a brother is in error or sinning we need to go to them and tell them what is correct not just talk about them. I have done this before, even to some in leadership and have been rejected and accepted. But I have continued to pray and love the rejectors. It is not up to us to stamp them as rejects.

I must ask do you love Todd Bentley, Rick Joyner, Mike Bickle, etc or not. Do you love them so much that you will not let God rest until you see them fulfill all God has for them in truth? Christ died for them and loves them. Do you spend as much time grieving and fasting and calling upon God to help them as you do discussing them? That is love if you do and I commend you.

We are all in danger of walking in error. We each need God's mercy and love. The enemy blinds even the big ones at times. Which is a good point, if we humble ourselves and make of ourselves no reputation we will not fall so easily and most likely not as far.

I say to you all love these men as Christ does. I read in the word that He is at the Father's right hand interceding for them, and us.

Neil, when people are deceived they got there through making wrong choices. It does not seem to matter much who says what and when regardless of facts, they will not see it or understand any other point of view. We like to think that if you would show them scripture that would refute it, they would be pricked in their heart and be compelled to repent. Not so UNLESS the Holy Spirit is still working with them. Too many times deceived folks have seared their conscience by going against better knowledge.

Consider Bentley. While he was at Lakeland 'ministering' to thousands, do you not think the Holy Spirit was convicting him of his adulterous affair? How can the guy keep on going, using Jesus' name, thinking he is doing God's work and still violate his marriage vows? And there were miracles following! Miracles do not prove the validity of any ministry. Miracles grab people's attention alright, and in some cases it does glorify God, but it is the walk of the 'miracle worker' that one must check out: is he/she living a holy lifestyle?

This is the way I understand it....

BTW, being deceived is awful. When I was a young girl I did something dreadful and after I realized how bad it was it took me years before I could forgive myself for having been so dumb and stupid. What did I do? I found a 'letter from an angel' in my deceased grandparents Bible. Included in this letter were warnings that one should make copies to distribute and woe on you if you don't. Well, what did I do? I took it to school and read it at the the devotional time!!! Sure I was young and ignorant, but it still should never have happened...But the lesson I learned is that anything like this is BOGUS and to be discarded. NOW! And do not hang on to it because there may be some good in it - a little yeast leavens the entire lump! except in this case it was all wrong....

ginnyrose

EDIT: likely the reason I was able to understand that I was deceived is because I was so young and tender. Not so with older people who seemed to have had some maturity.

Do I love these men? I love them as Jesus loved them. He loved them enough to tell them that they were white washed tombs full of dead mens bones. These men are not in error on some point of doctrine. They are blasphemous of the Holy Spirit, they are deceitful, they are polluting the precious gospel of salvation. These people are not brothers for you will know a tree by its fruit. I understand what you are saying, Goldminer, but the word also says that if any of these cause so much as one little lamb to stumble it would be better for them at judgment for a millstone to be tied around their neck and cast into the sea. That is harsh, but what they are doing will ultimately send many to hell because they are teaching a false gospel, they haven't just erred in judgment, they lack judgment, and live a lifestyle of deceit.

I am not saying you are wrong on this hoohoou, what I am asking is what you do about it. Do we love and intercede or do we just rage against them. We have an obligation to stand up for truth, but we also have an obligation to grieve if a brother is in error. You may feel comfortable judging who is a brother and who is not, and yes we shall know them by their fruit, but fruit is also jealousy, swearing, smoking, drinking, gossip, covetness, unrighteous anger, hatred, lust, backbiting, impatience, self-exaltation and the like. Do we have enough wisdom and discernment to say that those who are still walking in and of these things are not brothers?

Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

m 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

I must say I do not think that someone who has committed unrepented of adulterous living should be in ministry. I am not sure they qualify even after that because of Timothy's writings, but I am not sure about that. Also the word says let them be the husband of one wife. I think many who are in ministry and are divorced for reasons other than Jesus cited are on shakey ground. But I can not say they aren't brothers and sisters. Only God know's the heart. We will be judged by what we know and have walked in disobedience to.

My only point is that some of the roughness of this thread appears unloving. If these people were our children would we speak of them with the same gusto. Well we are all God's children, and as such, we need to know His heart is breaking for them, and so should ours. We would show mercy if they were our children, they are God's children and so should we show mercy and love.

Also this is the fruit of the Spirit:

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Where is the gentleness, peace and longsuffering here. Does that mean that those who are not displaying these openly are not brothers? Do we write the off? Or do we pray for them and love them?

Another bit, Jesus never said these money changers weren't of the tribe of Isreal, He said that His father's house shall be called a house of prayer not a den of thieves. He told others they must be born again. I see Paul grieved over the apostacy he is witnessing.

2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
2Ti 4:15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.
2Ti 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all [men] forsook me: [I pray God] that it may not be laid to their charge.

When God extends judgment it is always given with a way out until the final end of all things pertaining to this life. Jesus said Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

I read Jim Bakkers book " I Was Wrong" and the funny thing, except in the case of adultry, he thought he was doing what was right. Those who have been blinded by the enemy may not be doing so deliberately and need our intercession and love. They may not be saying I think I will go out and exploit the body of Christ. They may think they have God's word on what they are doing. Like the case of the now popular quotes:

Deu 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for [it is] he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as [it is] this day.

3Jo 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

Some of the body grabs these verses and misses the other verses that show what it really means.

1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

Having those things is prosperous, having Jesus is true prosperity.

We don't know who is deliberately deceiving and who is just deceived themselves. Both deceived and decieving have bad fruit. Love seeks to redeem and rescue from the enemy in all cases and to ask God to have mercy on their souls.

Jesus took the penalty of sinful man, Moses said kill me rather than them, Paul wished that he might be blotted out rather than his brothers after the flesh. Do we love them enough to stand in the gap and do battle for them? Just wondering.

Well appolus I am glad you shared this. I too have been to IHOP once and was blessed to have been there. I saw young people deeply seeking the Lord and saw no wierdness that I can remember. I was impressed by the fact none of the young were walking around on their cell phone but were studying the word and in prayer, taking communion and ministering love to each other.

I however, and I am not young, ha, had a precious young bible school student come up and sit with me and share fellowship with me. It was greatly welcomed because I came by myself for a week to just seek God in a non-negative atmosphere. I came home refreshed. I live with no practicing believers in my family, and feel I need to get away occassionally.

This is my point, I have heard Mike Bickle spoken of as a false prophet and other things, but here you are saying he is sincere. I find him sincere as well. Is he false or not. Do you know his heart? do I? How many of us on the forum have sat down to get to know the man and his heart? This is important stuff. God looks on the heart.

I feel bad about nobody talking to you. But I would admonish you to find those who look like they need someone to talk to them and you will find a friend. Give and it shall be given unto you.

Thanks for sharing here.

I might also add here just about every generation believed they were seeing that separation take place. It may be, but it might not be as well.

Matt.13:25-30 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Do we love them enough to stand in the gap and do battle for them? Just wondering

Goldminer, I don't feel either of us are in any way being combative and I really appreciate that from you. It's a blessing to discuss these things with you. I honestly think that we are both drawing caricatures of the issue. I certainly wouldn't refuse to forgive them and I should be praying for these men much more than I am, especially since these false doctrines weigh so heavy on me.

I guess my main point is that I believe there is a difference between wolves and wounded sheep. Most of these men are wolves, even if they are sincere. God does judge the heart, but we will be known by our fruit. They may very well have been decieved first, but they are now teaching this. Once they went from espousing to teaching, they went from wounded sheep to wolves.

All in all we are both right. They will face judgment for what they are doing, and it will be fierce. They are also not without hope, and the same Jesus who welcomed wretched me will welcome them as well, if they so choose. I guess my burden is more for the people who are being decieved by them, Bentley and Crowder being the two I'm most familiar with.

Be blessed.

Remember, you
must VIOLENTLY EXPEL these things in the name of JESUS.
Be FREE in His mighty name!

How about prayer & fasting!

We'er putting together a couple of weeks worth of meetings for Andrew here in Canton for April of this year, I assure you that if you decide to come you'll have plenty of fellowship and much oppurtunity for conversation. Let me know.

Good post Snuf. Who was the preacher?

What usually happens in a discussion like this is that anyone that has ever been involved in the prophetic movement is usually looked upon as being either a false teacher or a false prophet. It it guilt by association.

There are three men that I am very familiar with their ministires that have been a great blessing to the Body of Christ and to me personally that have had ties to the prophetic movement. They are Mike Bickle, Lou Engle, and Francis Frangipane.

Francis Frangipane has some of the best discipleship materials of anyone that I know of. We have gone through these materials as a group, and have benefited much in our spiritual growth from them. The studies deal with knowing God, and Christlikeness.

Lou Engle is a man that is very passionate about prayer, and just recently my wife and I attended "The Call Houston". There was much repentance that went out from these meetings for our own personal sins and the sins of our nation. Everyone in attendance gets involved in prayer as we broke up into small groups. There were thousands of young people that were at this event and were deeply moved by the Spirit of God with a burden of prayer.

I appreciate what Mike Bickle is doing in the area of praise and worship, as well as prayer. We work closely with a ministry in our area that is patterned after IHOP, and this ministry is a vital part of what goes on locally in the area of intercession.

Mike

Good post, Abideinhim!

We have our little boxes that we put people in, simply because we have heard that maybe they have some kind of association with a person or a ministry that someone who is a sound teacher called false, so ... He surely is totally deceived! Brethren, this is totally wrong judgement and wicked in heart. This will stop you from loving the sisters and brothers and you will put a label on people even though you dont even know them. This is wrong and it grieves God.
Now, I know there are indeed a lot of false anointings and there is tremendous deception ... but let us not make a judgement from hearsay nor put people in our boxes. There are sincere people in every movement and the Father knows who are His. He will not give a stone to those who ask Him for the Holy Spirit. Only those who do not receive the love of the truth get deceived. And truth is not necessarily your framework of doctrine. Truth is a person. It is very easy for us to firmly decide in our hearts full of assurance of "rightness" who and what is from God and who and what is not from God and surely everyone with a different opinion than me is totally deceived! Be aware lest God will do something that utterly offends you. He hates this pride.

Daniel

What daniel and abideinhim said. It is a good question whether we know first hand of what we speak or if it is hearsay.

Good posts both Abideinhim and Daniel. Proper spirit of humilty and contriteness are in order in these matters. Good word indeed.

As a word of balance, the sincerity of an individual should never be the basis for solid discernment/judgment. There have been and are many well-meaning heretics and cultists. I am not rendering a specific judgment on anyone listed in this thread but merely stating a fact for prudence sake.

Jonanthan Edwards has a great treatment of 1 John 4 on testing the spirits to see whether they are of God:

[url=http://edwards.yale.edu/archive?path=aHR0cDovL2Vkd2FyZHMueWFsZS5lZHUvY2dpLWJpbi9uZXdwaGlsby9nZXRvYmplY3QucGw/Yy4zOjUud2plbw==]Distinguishing Marks of the Work of a Spirit of God[/url]

Manifestations (weeping, shaking, laughing, etc) in and of themselves are not conclusive evidence that a work is or is not of the Holy Spirit. Is the true Christ being exalted? Does it oppose the interests of Satan? Are people being pointed to the Word of God? Is truth elevated? Are people being moved to deeper love for God and others? These factors are more critical to discerning if a thing is of God or not.

The carnal human nature desires to have an easy "litmus test" to test if something is right or wrong. That is the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. True discernment can only come to us when we eat the fruit of life.

Associating with ministries
It is naive to believe that just because someone is affiliated with a godly or ungodly ministry that these people are likewise. We cannot separate the wheat from the tares before the time. This is different from the distinguishing between wolves and sheep.

Doctrine
Doctrine can be checked against the word of truth, but what about those who are nearly 100% orthodox but still operate in the opposite spirit. Of such were Baalam yet he was Satan's most powerful weapon. We will not be able to discern this most devious type of deception unless you have the nature of Jesus through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

We can discern by their fruit
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

James 3:17
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

Luke 9:49-50 (King James Version)
And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. 50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

So what then with these borderline cases that were mentioned here earlier? It appears to me that true brethren have different opinions about the authenticity of other ministries. There is even a website that color-codes ministries in respect to that. Throughout history many truly godly ministries have been rejected by the majority of "orthodox" Christendom and today is no exception. Sounds confusing, he?

There are some discernment ministries that show good doctrinal insights on one hand but exercise discernment in such a condemning and pharisaic spirit that I wonder if they actually do more damage than good.

So how can we obtain the right discernment?

I find the answer in the ode of Wisdom in the first chapters of Proverbs. It is all there...just open our bible! The question is, can I admit to the Lord that I am simple and need guidance from him or do I leave this to others who profess to be expert. Every Christian must exercise discernment in as much we are testing food if it is good.

Prov 1: 7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools despise wisdom and discipline.

33 but whoever listens to me will live in safety
and be at ease, without fear of harm."

Psalm 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 116:6
The LORD preserveth the simple: I was brought low, and he helped me.

Psalm 119:130
The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

Proverbs 1:4
To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.

If these people were our children would we speak of them with the same gusto.

It is this idea that the devil has used to bring about the down fall of many otherwise stable preachers and parents.

From experience of having two sons away from God I can promise you we are very concerned and they know full well we oppose their use of porn, adultery, lying and just being away from God. Any amount of religion will not cancel out this lifestyle unless there is repentance - a forsaking of all known sin. To soft pedal sin because my child is involved is to invite deception. And God is not going to look the other way just because this is MY child. Sin is sin regardless who commits it. God does not play favorites.

ginnyrose

You are right ginnyrose, but my point is that we are all God's children and deserve the same love and compassion and mercy, along with correction and discipline we give our own children.

God dealt with me a long time ago about the fact that I forgave my children almost immediately when they said something hurtful, but I held on to it if it was my husband.

So my heart is to show the same compassion for all that I would show my own kids without condoning their sin. I would just speak the truth in love to them and not blast them as someone I don't give a hoot about.