Who was Jesus addressing in Mathew 5?

I'm just wondering when Jesus told the people to 'cut off there right hands if it causes them to sin'...was he talking to believers or non-believers?

Matthew 5:30

Jesus was talking to whoever had ears to hear. Faith comes by hearing.

makrothumia

The message? Sin is far more deadly serious than we are willing to admit. Christ is trying to burn in your mind Silo just how incredibly serious it is.

I understand that but I'm wondering how they could turn away from sin without the help of God. That's why I think he was talking to people there on that mountain who already believed in him.

Can I tell our generation that same thing or do I have to tell them that they cannot turn away from sin without the help of Jesus.

I guess this is more of an evangelism question. I guess what I'm trying to ask is Do you believe in Jesus first and then take heed to Matthew 5:30?

I would say that to impress upon a non-believer's mind the deadly seriousness of their sin would be in line with the heart of Christ, as that is exactly what he was doing. It is the job of an evangelist to help people understand the depth of their depravity, and the power and strength of the law to condemn their sin. Just remember to do it with a heart of love...

Can I tell our generation that same thing or do I have to tell them that they cannot turn away from sin without the help of Jesus.

The best thing to do here is consider how Jesus taught. If our understanding comes first from knowing Him then we will not fall into error. This may not answer your question directly but it does point you to the one who can and will.

Be blessed as you consider.

That is funny, I was going to recommend the exact same book Appolus...guess I should have.

Silo asked:
how they could turn away from sin without the help of God.

If it is an inability, it is not disobediance or rebellion, therefore, we are not culpable.

They don't need "God's [b]help[/b]", they need God's [b]forgiveness[/b] for not doing that which they are able to do but refuse.

Can I tell our generation that same thing or do I have to tell them that they cannot turn away from sin without the help of Jesus.

All you should be telling them that they need to be forgiven (reconciled to God) of/from there rebellion against God who gave them their conscience (the knowledge of right & wrong), otherwise they will be damned.

If they [b]COULDN'T[/b] turn away from sin without the help of Jesus, the inability would exempt them from any command toward their inability; that would make them innocent & not guilty for their sin.

Jesus said, "Think not that I will judge you, but there is a judge for the one who hears my words but does not obey them ... the very word I speak will judge him."

Who is going the be judged by the words of Jesus? The ones who obeyed them or the ones who did not?

makrothumia

Logic, doesn't Scripture describe the conscience of the unsaved as "evil".

whyme asked:
Logic, doesn't Scripture describe the conscience of the unsaved as "evil".

This "evil conscience" is not from the Greek word "κακός - kak-os'", but from the word "ponēros" which refers to the meaning of bad.
The Greek word "kakos" would be the literal "depraved", "wicked" or "evil".

The unsaved would have a "bad conscience" which condemns them because they know that they have disobeyed it while they had the ability to obey it.

One's conscience wouldn't condemn them if they had no ability to do contrary to what they know is right.
Furthermore, if they had a true disability (which they did not personally cause) to do that which is right, they would be exempt from the obligation.

Logic, your explanation of the meaning of poneros stops shTransliteration. See Strong's 2(b) below which justifies the KJV use of the word "evil" for the concience.

ponēros
Pronunciation

po-nā-ro's (Key)

Part of Speech
adjective

Root Word (Etymology)

From a derivative of πόνος (G4192)

TDNT Reference
6:546,912
Vines
View Entry

Outline of Biblical Usage 1) full of labours, annoyances, hardships

a) pressed and harassed by labours

b) bringing toils, annoyances, perils; of a time full of peril to Christian faith and steadfastness; causing pain and trouble

2) bad, of a bad nature or condition

a) in a physical sense: diseased or blind

b) in an ethical sense: evil wicked, bad
ort.

whyme said:
Logic, your explanation of the meaning of poneros stops shTransliteration. See Strong's 2(b) below which justifies the KJV use of the word "evil" for the concience.

2) bad, of a bad nature or condition
a) in a physical sense: diseased or blind

b) in an ethical sense: evil wicked, bad
ort.

By silo
I'm just wondering when Jesus told the people to 'cut off there right hands if it causes them to sin'...was he talking to believers or non-believers?

Matthew 5:30

Why would Jesus tell a non-believer / sinner to cut off his right hand if it caused them to sin? Aren't they ALREADY perishing? And why would a non-believer even care what Jesus was trying to say?

I'm just wondering too!!

God bless...

Logic said:

If your conscience is condemning you (because you disobeyed it), you have an evil conscience.

I would think an evil conscience is one that, as the Bible says, calls evil good and calls good evil. If your conscience condemns you for acting disobediently, then by the very terms, that conscience wouldn't be evil but rather good.

Lysa asked:
Why would Jesus tell a non-believer / sinner to cut off his right hand if it caused them to sin? Aren't they ALREADY perishing?

And why would a non-believer even care what Jesus was trying to say?

whyme said:
I would think an evil conscience is one that, as the Bible says, calls evil good and calls good evil.

This is not about the conscience, but of perversion & corruption; who will be, if not already, given over to a debased mind.

If your conscience condemns you for acting disobediently, then by the very terms, that conscience wouldn't be evil but rather good.

What comes to mind when you hear someone say, "I have a bad conscience about this."?

A London psychologist once told Billy Graham that seventy percent of the people in mental hospitals in England could be released if they could find forgiveness. Their problem was a [b]bad conscience[/b] and they could gain no relief from the guilt and pressure under which they lived.

Here is a psalm of a bad conscience:
When I kept silence, my bones grew old through my groaning all the day long. For day and night your hand was heavy upon me: my strength is turned into the drought of summer. Selah ([b]Psalm 32:3-4[/b]).

This is being relieved from a bad conscience:
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto you, and my iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah

I would recommend "Studies in the Sermon on the Mount" by Martyn Lloyd-Jones. He has a great interpretation and exposition on each verse.

On the proper paradigm for interpreting the SOTM, he reflects:

"What is of supreme importance is that we must always remember that the SOTM is a description of character and not a code of ethics or morals. It is not to be regarded as law - a kind of new "Ten Commandments" or set of fules and regulations which are to be carried out by us - but rather as a description of what we Christians are meant to be, illustrated in particular aspects."

I'm just wondering when Jesus told the people to 'cut off there right hands if it causes them to sin'...was he talking to believers or non-believers?

Actually I believe he is speaking to both because both can live under the bondage of the Old Covenant, trying to please God in the flesh. Jesus is saying that all such people must repent and confess that they are no longer in control. We mess up everything we put our hands to, we must ask Him to cut off all dependence on our eyes, hands, and feet - our fleshly ways of trying to please Him. The Spirit must do the cutting; the call is to both the believer and unbeliever to trust Christ for this.

In Christ,

Ron

Lysa wrote
And why would a non-believer even care what Jesus was trying to say?

Logic wrote
All who were there listening were believers.

Thank you Logic!!

Dear Silo,
For a few days before you put up this post the Lord had been speaking to me through these verses in particular. Everyone seems to agree that He is speaking to His disciples so these words are for all of us to take to heart. We beleivers, Jesus is saying, are in danger of being thrown into Hell if we don't get rid of our sin. Not just in these verses, but most times when Jesus mentions Hell, He's obviously speaking to beleivers.

He appears to be speaking of an habitual or long term problem with a particular sin; the first word, 'if your eye causes you to sin...', comes immediately after He says that whoever looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in His heart. But He doesn't say repent, confess, receive forgiveness and on your way. He's surely talking about taking some very ruthless, preventative action ourselves ....lest we sin again, and again, and again and eventually die without having overcome this sin.
We know we can't overcome sin ourselves without God's grace....but we have to choose to avail ourselves of that grace. That grace will enable us to hate that sin and hating it we will withstand that sin with all our strength. We will be prepared to do anything to overcome. We will be prepared to give up anything, however precious to us, however important, good or useful that thing is (even our 'right' hand, our 'best' hand).
I think He's saying we need to be as radical as is necessary to get us free. So if, for example, pornography is our problem, we may just need to confess to someone else and that will cause us to stop sinning or we may need to get rid of our computer, and if we work with computers, get a different job. If alcohol is our problem, we may need to go to a rehabilitation centre. If overspending is our problem, cut up the credit cards or maybe let someone else look after our money. Taking this seriously means being ruthless.

This is a warning word for all of us, so thank you Silo for drawing attention to it. May we take it seriously and put it into practice and not just discuss it.
God bless you, Gwen.

This may help;

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Matthew 5:1

CHAPTER 5

5. The Proclamation of the King concerning His Kingdom. Chapters 5-7
1. The Characteristics of the heirs of the Kingdom. 5:1-16.
2. The Confirmation of the Law and its Expansion. 5:17-48.
In chapters 5-7 we have the full report of the so-called Sermon on the Mount. Mark and Luke give fragments of this discourse, but the complete discourse is found only in Matthew. The Sermon on the Mount is the proclamation of the King concerning His Kingdom, and may well be called the "Magna Charta of the Kingdom of heaven." This discourse does not expound the Gospel of Grace, the way of salvation, the privileges and blessings of true Christianity. The teachers who say that the Sermon on the Mount is the Gospel are ignorant of what the Gospel is. We mention three wrong applications which are being made of this discourse.

1. The application to the unsaved, as if in this discourse the way to righteousness is shown, which man by his own effort is to attain. The discourse in the beginning speaks of saved persons, of disciples. The Lord does not address sinners. He taught His disciples. As the great unfolding of the salvation of God as revealed in the Epistle to the Romans is abandoned in Christendom, the false application of this discourse is increasingly followed. There is little preaching of the lost and helpless condition of man, the necessity of the new birth and the reception of eternal life. What is put in the place of the true Gospel is ethical teaching; and this has culminated in a Christian-socialistic attempt to save society. The Sermon on the Mount is taken as the program for this. But it condemns this spurious Gospel of works and evolution.

2. The second wrong application is the one which makes this discourse exclusively Christian and applies it to the Church. The magna charta of the Church is in the Epistles of Paul, to whom the full revelation of the Church was given. Christian position is not revealed in the Sermon on the Mount. The Sermon on the Mount is not given as the standard of Christian experience and walk.

3. The third false application is the one which makes this discourse exclusively Jewish. Some Christians refuse to consider these chapters as having any message or instruction for them at all. This is the other extreme and equally wrong. We repeat, the Sermon on the Mount is the proclamation of the King concerning His Kingdom. That Kingdom is not the church, nor is it a state of righteousness of the earth brought about through the agency of the church. It is the Kingdom as it will be set up by the King with the coming age. While in the Old Testament we have the outward manifestations of that earthly Kingdom revealed, we have here from the lips of the King the inner principles of that Kingdom. When the Lord Jesus Christ comes again the Old Testament predictions concerning the Kingdom will be literally fulfilled and the Kingdom itself will be a Kingdom of righteousness according to this proclamation. However, this does not exclude application to us, the heirs of the Kingdom.

The beatitudes give the character of the heirs who enter the Kingdom. They do not speak of what a person should be, or strive to be, but what they are. Only the Grace of God can produce such a character. The blessings are in possession of those, who have believed on the Son of God. And the Lord Jesus manifested all these characteristics in His humiliation. But these beatitudes have also a significance in connection with the future believing remnant of Israel, waiting amidst the great tribulations and under the severest persecutions at the end of the age for the return of the King. See Zep 3:12 and Isa 66:2; Mic 7:1-7.

The Law is then taken up by the King in this proclamation. He is the Lawgiver and therefore He confirms, expands and supplements the Law. Here we are on Jewish ground. Believers in Christ have nothing to do with the law. We are dead to the law (Ro 7:4; Ga 3:24-25.) The better righteousness needed to enter the Kingdom is not man's own righteousness, but that which is by faith in Jesus Christ.

As He speaks with authority He uncovers the heart of man and shows the depths of corruption and the hopelessness that the natural man could ever attain such a righteousness. The words of the King condemn every man and prove him lost. The condemnation of the natural man is written there.

In Christ: Phillip

Good post Philip. I remember reading that commentary and finding it enriching.

As an off-topic side note, Guzik remarks on the SOTM:

"It can't be proved, but in my opinion, the Sermon on the Mount was Jesus' "standard" sermon. It was the core of His itinerant message: a simple proclamation of how God expects us to live, contrasting with common Jewish misunderstandings of that life. It may be that when Jesus preached to a new audience, He often preached this sermon or used the themes from it."

Here is what the text says:

5:1And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

That is the audience...

So the audience is the multitude...both believers and non-believers.

Kind of like going to church. You have a mix of people who believe and people are just watching.

Either way...there listening to the words of Jesus...and then have to make a decision.

Re: "The beatitudes give the character of the heirs who enter the Kingdom. They do not speak of what a person should be, or strive to be, but what they are. Only the Grace of God can produce such a character. The blessings are in possession of those, who have believed on the Son of God. And the Lord Jesus manifested all these characteristics in His humiliation."

This statement speaks of the rest of a mature - a "telos" faith. However, there is a danger in forgetting the words the Holy Spirit authored through several of the chosen vessels that we have been told to imitate.

"Strive (agonidzo/agonize) to enter the narrow gate, for many shall seek to enter and not be able." Jesus Christ

"For I beat my body and make it my slave, lest after having preached to others, I myself should be disapproved - (adokimos/rejected)." The Apostle Paul

"Give all diligence (speudeo) to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never fall."
The Apostle Peter

Truly all these outworkings are evidence of the inner working of the grace of God. However, we rarely find the emphasis placed upon "not striving" as the above statement sets forth. The reality of God being at work in us to will and to do of His good pleasure is manifested in our working out our salvation in fear and trembling.

"Everyone who competes in the games exercises discipline in all things."

The reward is not handed out in the beginning of the race, only at the end. Let us run so as to win.

Beware of such things.

makrothumia

I thought about that PreachParsly. Good insight. I did hear it preached that it was the disciples specifically. Like when the disciples came, He opened His mouth and taught them specifically.

Does anybody know the Greek well enough to see where the emphasis lies?

I know in the Luke account (if it is indeed a re-telling of the same day), begins:

"Luk 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God."

One commentator called it the ordination service of the disciples as Christ had just called them in v. 13-16.

Anyhoo, it is interesting that the same message in essence is preceded by a phrase that makes it look like He is speaking directly to the disciples.

Re: "The beatitudes give the character of the heirs who enter the Kingdom. They do not speak of what a person should be, or strive to be, but what they are. Only the Grace of God can produce such a character. The blessings are in possession of those, who have believed on the Son of God. And the Lord Jesus manifested all these characteristics in His humiliation."

This statement speaks of the rest of a mature - a "telos" faith. However, there is a danger in forgetting the words the Holy Spirit authored through several of the chosen vessels that we have been told to imitate.

I think what is being said here is not a "lay back and enjoy the ride perfectionism meets antinomianism" or something like that. The beatitudes themselves are what a Christian is. If you are not poor in spirit, if you have never mourned over sin, if you don't hunger and thirst for righteousness, etc then it sounds like that person hasn't been regenerated through conversion. Of course these fruits aren't mature, and the person still falls 7 times, but they do mourn over that sin, they do depend on God to grow them in His image, they are meek, etc. Like the firstfruits are there divinely by God's doing, not of man's striving...though they may blossom to fullness with the labors of man albiet in the power of the Spirit. This is just saying that if you don't have any of these things, you can't just decide that you're going to be poor in spirit or mourn over sins and then do some work to achieve the desired state.

Preacher Parsly said:
by PreachParsly on 2010/2/4 5:55:53

Here is what the text says:

5:1And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

That is the audience...

I thought the same thing once, but take a look at the text wrapping up the sermon:

Matthew 7:28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

Please don't forget also, that not all "diciples" that followed Jesus did in fact, become believers. See John 6.

Preacher Parsly said:
by PreachParsly on 2010/2/4 5:55:53

Here is what the text says:

5:1And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

That is the audience...

I thought the same thing once, but take a look at the text wrapping up the sermon:

Matthew 7:28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

Please don't forget also, that not all "diciples" that followed Jesus did in fact, become believers. See John 6.

Valid points, but the question is not who listened to the sermon, but who is it addressed to.

As for disciples not becoming believers, there is also the other side of that coin, where not all believers become disciples:

Joh 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

The question must be answered apart from periphreal information, i.e. who else listened and what there response is.

Giggles suggested
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

if you have never mourned over sin, if you don't hunger and thirst for righteousness, etc then it sounds like that person hasn't been regenerated through conversion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ezekiel 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

Clearly, it doesn't take regeneration to mourn over sin. That's why God introduced the law of Moses when He did, just after they left Egypt, because they had no idea of how much better a life there would be if rhey turned from their idolatry. To some extent, that's one of the most remarkable things about Moses, he, having been brought up to adulthood in Pharoah's palace, preferring to please God, rather than men. King Saul, later, faltered, when inevitably he had to make a similar choice.

Do we deceive ourselves?

Alive-to-God,

I referred to the beatitudes as a whole. I in no way said that segmenting one of them off as a stand-alone is proof of regeneration. The converted will bear signs of each of beatitude in their lives, not merely one. As for that Ezekiel passage, it's curious you mention it because isn't that story an OT shadow of salvation? The sighers and criers, those mourning over sin, were marked as to avoid being slain with the rest.

DELETED. I felt I shoudn't pursue where this post led.

Like all sermons, the message is intended for those who hear, the sermon is useful, however, only for those who understand. The sermon describes the nature and way of kingdom living so ultimately, only those who have been transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light can understand it, desire it, much less live it. The teaching sets forth impossible standards (apart from Christ) for the Christian believer not ethical morays for the world. Matthew 7 and 8 make that pretty clear.

Re: The teaching sets forth impossible standards (apart from Christ) for the Christian believer not ethical morays for the world. Matthew 7 and 8 make that pretty clear

I disagree with the above statement and would put forth that Jesus was setting forth the will of God for all men.

Men are deemed unworthy of the kingdom of God by reason of not receiving the messengers or the message they speak. Matthew 10:13-14. The Greek word for "receive" comes from the root "to think" (dokeo). The implication is clear; if after hearing the message and thinking about it, the messenger and message are rejected - then one is not worthy of the kingdom. Leave them alone - it will be more tolerable for Sodom than for them in the day of judgment.

This is the judgment- not that it is "impossible"
to walk in or believe the light, rather that the light has come but men loved darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. The judgment is placed squarely upon their choice of the darkness over the light.

He that believes (active verb) is not condemned. He that believes not (active verb again) stands condemned already, because he has not believed."

This is the way the Holy Spirit chose to express the reasons why some are condemned and others are not. Why do we make so many attempts to add to it? We should be careful not to try to alter the way the Holy Spirit has chosen to reveal the truth. The Holy Spirit has clearly chosen to say hearing comes first, then faith. Let's be careful not to imply that only a believer can hear! Paul said, "By faith we have gained access into this grace..." He did not say by grace we have gained access into this faith. Believe is not a passive thing - it is always put forth in the active voice. One word is always put forth as a passive - "doubt." Look this up and you will see.

Even in Romans 10, Paul makes it clear what the problem with Israel was. "Lord who has believed our report?"

The reason Israel was judged was for not mixing what they heard with faith.

makrothumia

Markrothumia said:

This is the judgment- not that it is "impossible"
to walk in or believe the light, rather that the light has come but men loved darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. The judgment is placed squarely upon their choice of the darkness over the light.

I think you are mixing two things. The "light" referred to in the passage you quoted from John is Jesus not what you say which is essentially that doing the law with faith saves or damns for those who don't. Second, Jesus does say that performing His standards is impossible with men but possible with God. I think that was my point.

by whyme

Like all sermons, the message is intended for those who hear, the sermon is useful, however, only for those who understand. The sermon describes the nature and way of kingdom living so ultimately, only those who have been transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light can understand it, desire it, much less live it. The teaching sets forth impossible standards (apart from Christ) for the Christian believer not ethical morays for the world. Matthew 7 and 8 make that pretty clear.

Good post whyme.

Contributors,

I would just like to take a moment and praise the Lord with a grateful heart! I haven't read "every single answer" but I've read enough and everyone has made a deposit of wonderful insights in the Word! I'm going to read them all soon.

This is a thread of not seeking to win but of all seeking the truth! Thank you Jesus!

God bless you all!!

This might be totally off topic but how could they 'cut off' sin without the Holy Spirit within them?

Was he trying to tell them that they can't walk this walk without Him? Maybe he was just speaking to his disciples?

Who was Christ talking to? The end of the Sermon on the Mount makes it obvious:

Matthew 7:24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house ; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house ; and it fell -and great was its fall." 28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching ; 29 for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes.

Ultimately, Christ is asking, who are you? The wise man or the fool? Christ leaves it up to you to determine whom He is talking to.

Nice Jimmy. I like that. Good summary.

PS - Maybe it's my pride but I can't call you KingJimmy, lol.

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Silo: I personally think that verses 29 and 30 are commentary on verses 27 and 28. Look at the way Jesus makes his points one by one in Matt. 5. Although there is a principle here that is applicable in many areas, it is specifically applied to lust and sexual immorality. I would look up other places in the NT where sexual immorality is dealt with and see if there are any places where similarly severe dealings with that issue are mentioned. There is something "different" about this issue. 1 Cor. 6:18. A believer needs to be "ruthless" when dealing with this issue in his or her own life. Deal with it severely is, I believe, the point. Obviously we would not literally make ourselves blind, but we do need to deal with sexual lust and immorality harshly in our lives. Leave it NO avenue to work.

Travis

PS - Maybe it's my pride but I can't call you KingJimmy, lol.

It's just a name I was given in Bible college :-) I wasn't very good at quoting the Scriptures, and would often paraphrase them. People would ask what version I was quoting from, and one day I replied, "The King Jimmy Version," and that name has stuck with me since. I like to think of it as an affectionate phrase :-)

It's just a name I was given in Bible college I wasn't very good at quoting the Scriptures, and would often paraphrase them. People would ask what version I was quoting from, and one day I replied, "The King Jimmy Version," and that name has stuck with me since. I like to think of it as an affectionate phrase

I like it!

And KingJimmy is much better than my original handle on SI, which was "PreachingToCannibals" :-)

LOL.

That was based on a dream God gave me many years ago though :-)

So I guess Jesus was talking to the whole world.

John 3:16