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Sin vs Man or Man = Sin ?

I
IWantAnguish

Every day my perceived reality about myself becomes more and more despondent.

The depths of my self-deception regarding my motives and thoughts is beyond repair.

Every thing I do ultimately contains a selfish motive driving the action, beginning from my inner-self, the thought beneath the action.

And not only am I selfish, but I attempt to deceive myself through rationalizing my intent; and I would succeed into tricking myself into thinking that I am not that bad (of course in comparative relation to others), except for the Word of God which exposes my hypocrisy and wickedness.

So the question must be answered, is sin just a part of man, or is man so full of sin, and immersed in it, that the two cannot be objectively separated into differing categories.

What does it mean to be human?

To have thinking capacities which allows the ability to choose.

But, since birth, all of our choices are guided within the paradigm of selfishness.

Selfishness, pride; the concept that we are the centers of the universe, our happiness at the expense of all other things.

Thus, from birth, we are deceived into believing that we are free from determinism... yet this turns out to merely be a cruel twist of fate... and we find ourselves free within the prison of bondage to selfish desire.

Therefore, man is born in sin, dead to God, loving self, hating God... the statement, choose to have faith in Christ is a worthless statement, a waste of breath. A person can no more choose to have faith in God, than a blind person can choose to begin to see.

Grace is the gift of God to man, God granting us the sight to see that He is above all things, glorious, marvelous, beautiful, and desirable. Grace is the state in which we begin to live for the single purpose of the supremacy of the glory of God, through Christ our savior, revealed to us in the Word of God, through the power of the Holy Spirit.

God, I need grace.

T
twayneb

Maybe I can help you understand what it is you are going through.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

The purpose of chastening is NEVER punishment for wrong done. That is coming in the day of the Lord when the world will be judged. We who are His children will NOT be judged in that day because we have received the atoning work of Jesus Christ. Chastening is for the purpose of changing us into His image from glory to glory. Read these verses carefully. He chastens us through His word. He reveals to us those things that He desires to change in us by showing them to us in the mirror of His word.

When you were born again, it was your spirit that was actually born again. See John chap. 3. Your flesh was not. So, although you became a new creature and were created in righteousness and true holiness, it was your spirit that was perfected forever. (You can find these scriptures in Hebrews) There was still a lot of changing to be done due to the fact that you are human. Remember that Paul told us we were to be transformed by the renewing of the mind.

Now God could not show you everything at once. I believe it would almost kill us to have all of the things God wants to change in us revealed all at once. But He will chasten or correct you by revealing to you what is really in your heart and ask you to surrender that to Him for Him to change.

I speak from experience here. The closer you draw to God and the further along you get, the deeper the issues He will reveal and ask you to bring to Him to deal with. It is a lot like an onion. When one layer is pealed off, underneath lies a deeper layer to be taken away. God will allow you to see areas of your heart the way He sees them. Don't lose heart or allow yourself to be condemned. Recognize that God is revealing a core issue. Praise Him for that, and do business with God over the thing. It is an act of His grace toward you that He reveals these things and deals with them. I can recall having a bondage in my life that I struggled with. God revealed the core issue to me and began to deal with it. I spent time with trusted leaders who loved me and had great spiritual maturity. They ministered to me and prayed with me. I spent time with God in repentance and receiving healing. These deeper issues are often what leads us into the more visible issues anyway. God still is progressively opening my eyes to the things He wants to correct in my life. I am so thankful for it and recognize a loving Father who wants to change me into His image.

To say, "I am bad. I am a worm. I am so evil. ..." is to speak contrary to what the word of God says about you if you are born again. The word says you are a saint. It says that you have been made the righteousness of God through Christ. That does not mean you are claiming perfection in your flesh. It means you are saying about yourself the things that God says of you. It is an agreement with the Word of God about who you have become in your spirit. But God has a lot of revealing to do in you about just how unregenerate your flesh really is and about how He longs to transform you that you might bear much fruit for His kingdom.

Hope that helps.

Travis

S
sojourner7

You may find some comfort in Romans Ch 7.
Even the apostle Paul despaired when his
selfish desires and wants got in the way of
serving GOD. The only thing for us is to
cast our hearts and lives upon the mercies
of GOD and trust in the work of the cross
to save us to the uttermost!!

L
Logic

IWantAnguish said:
Every day my perceived reality about myself becomes more and more despondent.
The depths of my self-deception regarding my motives and thoughts is beyond repair.
Everything I do ultimately contains a selfish motive driving the action, beginning from my inner-self, the thought beneath the action.
And not only am I selfish, but I attempt to deceive myself through rationalizing my intent; and I would succeed into tricking myself into thinking that I am not that bad (of course in comparative relation to others), except for the Word of God which exposes my hypocrisy and wickedness.
This does not sound like anyone who knows & loves Christ.
You are truly able to not be selfish. All you need to do is make all you do with the intention of love.

However, IF you are not able to, then your inability would exempt you from the obligation.
Therefore, since we all are under obligation you are truly able to NOT be selfish & have the correct intentions in all things.

Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness (Rom 6:18).
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life (Rom 6:22).

What does it mean to be human?
To have thinking capacities which allows the ability to choose.
But, since birth, all of our choices are guided within the paradigm of selfishness.
It is not wrong for an infant to be selfish.
A newborn infant cannot be otherwise.
Therefore, the "selfishness" is not sinful.

Selfishness, pride; the concept that we are the centers of the universe, our happiness at the expense of all other things.
Yes, newborn infants think that they are the centers of the universe, their happiness at the expense of all other things.
Because "all other things" are not comprehended by newborns & all they know is themselves.
They cannot regard their parents.

Furthermore, there is no "pride" in newborns.

Thus, from birth, we are deceived into believing that we are free from determinism... yet this turns out to merely be a cruel twist of fate... and we find ourselves free within the prison of bondage to selfish desire.
"from birth" we cannot be "deceived" into anything.
But, even if we could, we would not be culpable.

Furthermore, as we mature, we become to comprehend the world around us and the people in it. As we mature, we understand that we are not the center of the world and start to form (emotional) relationships with others.
As these relationships strengthen, the more selfless we may become towards them.

Since we are moral beings, we come to understand that even the people we do not know are worthy of respect (Rom 2:14-15).
However, we are able to choose contrary to our conscience and remain selfish to decide not to give others the respect they are due, being selfish.

Therefore, man is born in sin, dead to God, loving self, hating God...
Man is born innocent, without sin & not IN sin (never committed sin, therefore, not sinful), alive to God (because never committed sin in order to be dead to God), only knowing themselves & not knowing God to hate Him.

the statement, choose to have faith in Christ is a worthless statement, a waste of breath.
Yes, because they are incapable of comprehending faith, therefore, they are exempt from the mandate which all men beyond the age of accountability has.

A person can no more choose to have faith in God, than a blind person can choose to begin to see.
All men (beyond the age of accountability) has faith in something or other. Therefore, they are able/capable of putting that faith in & on Christ and what He has said & done. Since they are commanded to, they are able to.
The fact that they WILL NOT is why they are condemned.
If they CAN NOT have faith, they would NOT be at fault for having no faith.

No one is condemned because of an inability. All mankind are condemned because they are able, but WILL NOT.
Without ability, there is no culpability.

Grace is the gift of God to man
Grace is not a "power" or anything but favor, kindness, good will, favor...etc...
These cannot be gifts, but they are the product of love.
God’s Love for Mankind is not a gift, but a moral choice God makes from the fact that He knows to do right.

God granting us the sight to see that He is above all things, glorious, marvelous, beautiful, and desirable.
IF these are "granted", then all mankind are "granted" to see these.

However, it is self-evident that God is above all things, glorious, marvelous, beautiful, and desirable.
All men are able to see God & recognize Him with these attributes if they so choose to believe.

However, they do not see God as these because the WILL not believe (suppressing the truth in unrighteousness), therefore, the god of this age has blinded their minds (2Corinth 4:4) so they do not see God as above all things, glorious, marvelous, beautiful, and desirable.

Grace is the state in which we begin to live for the single purpose of the supremacy of the glory of God, through Christ our savior, revealed to us in the Word of God, through the power of the Holy Spirit.
That is not "grace". Grace is not a “state”.
What you described is the love for God that we have to live for the single purpose of the supremacy of the glory of God, because He was loving us all along; and now we do this as a response to Him.

I
IWantAnguish

Dude, you don't know what I'm going through.

I could sit here and argue with your theology, but I'm really not in the mood for it.

"Brother, you're not being Christ-like."

Yeah, I know, but I'd rather be honest, opposed to superficially giving a hypocritical, politically correct reply.

J
JoanM

I appreciate the living Word in you dear "IWantAnguish." I have found, in John, what you describe was also the experience of the disciples as they followed Jesus. Our personal relationship (the reality) is deeply related to transparent honesty. I recall Jesus' honesty with His Father in prayer at Gethsemane.

I lost the reference as to who wrote/said this but thought you might appreciate this.

"But ... who said there was going to be an oral exam on Judgment Day? From what I read in Scripture, Judgment Day will be based on the reality of my life here on earth. On that day, it will be revealed whether I lived my life by grace through faith, or not. Quoting a creed or a theological doctrine will be irrelevant."

It sounds a bit like Ravenhill who also said, "A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument."

L
Logic

oops.
double post

L
Logic

IWantAnguish said:
Dude, you don't know what I'm going through.
Yes, I used to have an over scrupulous conscience also.

However, your sounding like you can't help having wrong motives, thoughts & attempting to deceive yourself.

Don't you know that if you can't help it, your not accountable to it?
How do you repent of something you have no control over?

The answer is that you can't, therefore, your NOT culpable.

However, if you truly are accountable & culpable, then you must have control over wrong motives and thoughts & attempting to deceive yourself.

Which is it?
do you have control or not?
Let be honest here.

I could sit here and argue with your theology, but I'm really not in the mood for it.
It's not theology, it's reality.

How do you change something that you can't control?
Truth is that you can't.

Now, if you can't help it, then why are you fealing so guilty?

Sin must be repentable.
Sin must be controlable in order to repent.
If you have no control of it, then you can't repent.
If you can't repent, then it is not sin.

This is only commone sence. I'm not trying to be theological, but to help you not be so self condemning.

So, now let's get honest with ourselves.
Are you able to control this issue, or not?

I
IWantAnguish

When Satan and 1/3 of the angels of heaven sinned against God...

Why didn't God offer them a savior?

Is it because they were unable to show remorse for their sin, that God refused to send them a savior?

Or was it because God refused to give them the grace to be able to turn in repentance towards God?

You see, my self, the thinking me, my conscious self, really would like to place the blame of my predicament upon God... rather than myself.

Ultimately, I'm left with a Job dilemma.

I'm left with my arguments thrown back into my face, and God still being God; thus, who am I to argue with His perfect sovereign grace?

But... I'm still in the developing stages of the trial; yet to realize the hand of God in all things.

I'm sure that when revelation breaks through these clay shuttered doors, I won't feel so lifeless.

At least God's given me the faith to believe in that truth.

I
IWantAnguish

Bro, I would like to see through the lens of which you're prescribing to me, but that's comparable to telling a short person to be taller.

There is a system of thoughts, my worldview, which has been formed through listening, and reading... HOPEFULLY in proper accordance to the Word of God.

If I am mistaken in this whole matter, I do pray that God would enlighten me and allow me to no longer walk in darkness, but in the light of His truth.

H
hmmhmm

brother, i would like to give you these sermons, if you follow the link there is a transcription also, in dark seasons these have helped me, one off them so much i once felt i would have fallen away completely, but this helped me so much. Dont know if it will have such an effect on you. But i pray you will get some light in your circumstance and God would speak to you.


[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19453&forum=34&2]Let us go on[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19494&forum=34&6]a living personal reality[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19506&forum=34&1]He ever liveth[/url]

God bless you brother

L
Logic

IWantAnguish aksed:
When Satan and 1/3 of the angels of heaven sinned against God...

Why didn't God offer them a savior?

Is it because they were unable to show remorse for their sin, that God refused to send them a savior?

Or was it because God refused to give them the grace to be able to turn in repentance towards God?

Maybe a couple of reasons.
The angles have a full revelation of God & who & what He is; they cannot be given more revelation of this what they already have.
They sinned anyway with the full revelation of God; They sinned in His very presence.
This is comparable to Hebrews 6:4-6

Also, the angels are not created in God's image, after His likeness as we are.
God offers Mankind redemption to untarnish HIS likeness & image.

They are fully responsible for their own sin. It has nothing to do with God on His part.
God had done all He could to provide an environment for them so that they would not sin.
But, what does it say?
You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was FOUND in you (Eze 28:15)
God did not create Lucifer imperfect, or with a “sees” of sin that it might come out, but sin was found in him.
Lucifer is TOTALLY at fault as we are.

Anyway, how does this relate to the subject at hand?

You see, myself, the thinking me, my conscious self, really would like to place the blame of my predicament upon God... rather than myself.
Then you do agree that you have full control over your wrong motives and thoughts & attempting to deceive yourself.

That is the first step in VICTORY!!!
The next part is finding HOW to control this and stop it completely.

Ultimately, I'm left with a Job dilemma.
I'm left with my arguments thrown back into my face, and God still being God; thus, who am I to argue with His perfect sovereign grace?
But... I'm still in the developing stages of the trial; yet to realize the hand of God in all things.

I'm sure that when revelation breaks through these clay shuttered doors, I won't feel so lifeless.

At least God's given me the faith to believe in that truth.

Huh?
I guess I don't understand your point here.

However, if you are sinning, then you are not in a trial; you being convicted of sin is not trial either.
Trials are from circumstances outside of your control which adversely affect you.
You might call what you're going through as being chastened, but it is not a trial.

God disciplines us for our good, that we may be partakers of His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness (Hebrews 12:10-11).

Anyway, All I want to do is help you get the victory over this issue.

Bro, I would like to see through the lens of which you're prescribing to me, but that's comparable to telling a short person to be taller.
How's that?
The lens is reality.
We are both in reality.

We are both able to have victory over sin.
The first step is taking responsibility of our own sin, by accepting the fact that we have control over it.

Are you praying that God make all this you’re dealing with to disappear?
The problem with that is God does not necessarily want to take you out of the battle (make it disappear), but lead you through it in Victory.

Therefore, according as His divine power, He has given to us all things that pertain unto life and GODLINENESS, through the knowledge of him who has called us to glory and virtue:
By which are given to us exceedingly great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakes of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2Peter 1:3-4).

There is a system of thoughts, my worldview, which has been formed through listening, and reading... HOPEFULLY in proper accordance to the Word of God.
If I am mistaken in this whole matter, I do pray that God would enlighten me and allow me to no longer walk in darkness, but in the light of His truth.
Now that you have acknowledged your responsibility in this matter, let’s find out how & why you are having wrong motives and thoughts & attempting to deceive yourself.

Let's use an analogy:
Say that having no oil in your vessel is a sin. The reason is that you will not be able to see.

You don't want to run out of oil and you didn't intend to do so either, however, you did neglect to fill your vessel up when it began to flicker.

Now say that you did not intentionally NOT fill your vessel up with oil, so the reason that you ran out of oil must be that you got distracted and it became too late for you to fill your vessel up and you ran out of oil.

Now, it would seem that you had no control over your vessel running out of oil. But in reality, you did.
You should have kept clear of distractions which caused you to ignore the flickering flame which you neglected as you ran out of oil.

Let’s put this to your predicament.
Wrong motives and thoughts & attempting to deceive yourself is sinful (running out of oil).
However you don't want to sin, you don't want to run out of oil, but you do, therefore, the question comes as:
How am I in control, at fault & culpable to that which I don't want to do but do (you don't want to sin, but you still do)?
Or
What is the leading cause of this sinfulness if it isn't your own choice?

There is a system of thoughts, my worldview, which has been formed through listening, and reading... HOPEFULLY in proper accordance to the Word of God.
I wouldn't make this the cause of your sin, but it may be the reason that you have no victory over your sin.

The reason is most likely neglect of something which is the root cause of your sin.

What is your attitude when you see yourself as selfish & self deceptive?

Where is our mind as you see yourself as such?

M
murrcolr

Every day my perceived reality about myself becomes more and more despondent.

The depths of my self-deception regarding my motives and thoughts is beyond repair.

Every thing I do ultimately contains a selfish motive driving the action, beginning from my inner-self, the thought beneath the action.

And not only am I selfish, but I attempt to deceive myself through rationalizing my intent; and I would succeed into tricking myself into thinking that I am not that bad (of course in comparative relation to others), except for the Word of God which exposes my hypocrisy and wickedness.

Despondent because you can't see the way and you think you are beyond repair but I think you are in a good place you are seeing the reality of the heart, I see it as God is opening up your eyes to see your own condition and the need for God to do a deeper work in you.

Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

This is the man who in Job 1:1 was declared to be perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Although Job was delared to be perfect and upright we find out later that there was still a work to done because his heart was not pure and because is heart was not pure he could not see God.

What does scripture say Matt 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God..

My friend you have been justified by faith and have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ but find that SIN still remains within.

I say SIN and not sins there is a difference SIN is what caused us to commit sins. When you where justified your sins where forgiven but SIN was not dealt with....

There needs to be in your life a deeper work of the Spirit that deals with the SIN..

The Sinful Nature Must Be Cleansed your heart needs to be pure. This second work of grace through faith is known as sanctification. It is necessary because of the two fold nature of sin. It is not enough to be forgiven for sins committed in the past; it is also necessary that SIN, the extreme hostility to God which prompted the sins, be cleansed.

Edit:- Spelling mistakes

L
Logic

murrcolr said:
My friend you have been justified by faith and have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ but find that SIN still remains within.
I say SIN and not sins there is a difference SIN is what caused us to commit sins. When you were justified, your sins where forgiven but SIN was not dealt with....
SIN and sins was dealt with once & for all.

The "SIN" which "caused us to commit sins" is not really "SIN" as you call it.
Paul calls it our flesh.

murrcolr said:
It is not enough to be forgiven for sins committed in the past; it is also necessary that SIN, the extreme hostility to God which prompted the sins, be cleansed.
It's not an "extreme hostility to God" in this case.
He has shown to love God & hate sin.
There is no "extreme hostility to God" with IWantAnguish.
However, the MIND of the FLESH or the "mind set" of the flesh is enmity/HOSTILE towards God (Rom 8:7).

That which prompted the specific sins which IWantAnguish told us about (selfishness - Gal 5:20) comes from a neglect of submission to walking in the spirit, not from this so called "sin nature".

Here is the answer to all IWantAnguish's vexation:

For if you walk in the Spirit, you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. The flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would. But if you be led of the Spirit, you are not under the law (Gal 5:16-18)

The righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk NOT after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit (Rom 8:4-5).
But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you (Rom 8:9a).
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness (Rom 8:10).

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also bring to life your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you (Rom 8:11).

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live (Rom 8:12-13).

M
murrcolr

It's not an "extreme hostility to God" in this case.
He has shown to love God & hate sin. There is no "extreme hostility to God" with IWantAnguish. However, the MIND of the FLESH or the "mind set" of the flesh is enmity/HOSTILE towards God

My friend it's extreme hostility to God in every case in every single person........Any way what do you know.

It all very well quoting scripture from Roms 8 and saying "this is the answer to all IWantAnguish's vexation"

That's not the answer the answer is in Romans chapter 7

After conversion a man begins to do his best, and he fails. God allows that failure that the regenerate man should be taught his own utter impotence. It is in the course of this struggle that there comes to us this sense of our utter sinfulness.

IwantAnguish is beginning to see the Utter sinfulness in himself....

Every thing I do ultimately contains a selfish motive driving the action, beginning from my inner-self, the thought beneath the action.

And not only am I selfish, but I attempt to deceive myself through rationalizing my intent; and I would succeed into tricking myself into thinking that I am not that bad

IWantAnguish it is God’s way of dealing with us. He allows us to strive to fulfill the law that, as we strive and wrestle, you be brought to this: “I am a regenerate child of God, but I am utterly helpless to obey His law.

See what strong words are used all through the Romans chapter 7 to describe this condition: “I am carnal, sold under sin” (Rom. 7:14); “I see another law in my members bringing me into captivity” (Rom. 7:23); and last of all, “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” (Rom. 7:24). This believer who bows here in deep contrition is utterly unable to obey the law of God.

It is not I that do it, but I am under the awful power of sin, which is holding me down. It is I, and yet not I: it is myself; so closely am I bound up with it, and so closely is it intertwined with my very nature. Blessed be God when a man learns to say: “O wretched man that I am!” from the depth of his heart.

What did you say again Logic "It's not an "extreme hostility to God" in this case." [b]You blind fool[/b]

L
Logic

murrcolr said:
It all very well quoting scripture from Roms 8 and saying "this is the answer to all IWantAnguish's vexation"
That's not the answer the answer is in Romans chapter 7
The only answer in Romans 7 is Rom 7:25 "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

After conversion a man begins to do his best, and he fails.
There is no need to fail.
You imply that failure is inevitable.
God implies that Victory may be had.

How is there victory if failure is inevitable?

God allows that failure that the regenerate man should be taught his own utter impotence.
Our impotence is taught before salvation.
When we learn of our impotence as an unsaved sinner, we are directed toward Christ for salvation to give us the strength & He gives us the Victory.

It is in the course of this struggle that there comes to us this sense of our utter sinfulness.
This is yet again before salvation.
We as Christians are not (we shouldn't be) sinfull anymore.

I am sure that IWantAnguish is saved, this is why He hates the sin which he described.
He already saw is "utter sinfulness" before he was saved.
Now as he has repented, he should no longer be sinful.

But there remains some sins which he must conquer through obedience.

IwantAnguish is beginning to see the Utter sinfulness in himself....
He saw that before He got saved. That is why he repented and asked for forgiveness of his sins.
Now he must stop doing that which He hates.
The only way is to walk in the spirit as to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh..

IWantAnguish it is God’s way of dealing with us. He allows us to strive to fulfill the law that, as we strive and wrestle, you be brought to this: “I am a regenerate child of God, but I am utterly helpless to obey His law.
Don't give him a defeatist attitude.
He wants victory over this sin.

We are not "utterly helpless to obey His law". The righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Rom 8:4).

See what strong words are used all through the Romans chapter 7 to describe this condition: “I am carnal, sold under sin” (Rom. 7:14); “I see another law in my members bringing me into captivity” (Rom. 7:23)
This evidentially describes a pre-salvation experience of Paul.

“I am carnal, sold under sin” (Rom. 7:14)
Christians are not carnal, nor are we "sold under sin" anymore (Rom 6:16-20).

But I see another law in my "members", warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the LAW OF SIN which is in my "members". (Rom. 7:23)

The “law of sin” in this verse is the demands of our own fleshly desires & affections against known law that bring us in opposition to God which separates us from Him.

The “law of sin” includes the INABILITY OF THE FLESH to deny its own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM.
Remember this, for it is important to remember!

This concludes that which is in our “members” (v.23) are the unlawful affections &/or desires which brings about spiritual death.

and last of all, “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” (Rom. 7:24). This believer who bows here in deep contrition is utterly unable to obey the law of God.Why can't we obey the law?
What's stopping us?
Why are you claiming that we (especially as Christians) can NOT obey God and Love Him (John 14:15, John 14:21, John 15:10, 1Johh 5:2, 1Johh 5:3, 2Johh 1:6)?

What did you say again Logic "It's not an "extreme hostility to God" in this case." You blind fool
I am not a "blind fool" but one who is not bound to a bad theological doctrine which keeps man in a defeated position with God.

We are to have victory in Christ over sin.

B
broclint

Dear Brother Colin,

Those are some rather strong and dangerous words there friend, regardless of your viewpoint... and totally unnecessary... Matthew 5:22

Clint

P
PaulWest

Those are some rather strong and dangerous words there friend, regardless of your viewpoint... and totally unnecessary

I agree.

In the heat of these discussions, please try to remember common forum etiquette. Namely, [i]"Play the ball and not the man."[/i] Everyone is granted the opportunity on SermonIndex to express his/her views without fear of ad hominem attacks.

Let's be an example to other believers!

Brother Paul

M
murrcolr

Quote:

IWantAnguish it is God’s way of dealing with us. He allows us to strive to fulfill the law that, as we strive and wrestle, you be brought to this: “I am a regenerate child of God, but I am utterly helpless to obey His law.

Don't give him a defeatist attitude.
He wants victory over this sin.

There is nothing deafeatist the only way to victory is death to self as we will never get victory over sin in our own strength...we should never endeavour to overcome sin and be holy through their own exertion-------through doing our best.

As our best will always end it failure........

You must come to understand what it means to say, "In me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing" (Romans 7:18)

This evidentially describes a pre-salvation experience of Paul

The struggle here in Romans 7 is with a Christian Conscience, i.e an awakened conscience, a renewed heart, that understands the righteousness of God.

Paul in his unconverted Jewish state would have had no struggle because he assumed he was keeping the law. A pagan on the other had would not have a conscience of sin because he would have no sense of why his actions would be wrong.

The very fact that you are wrestling with sin is one of the signs of the new birth.

Why can't we obey the law? What's stopping us?

For to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. Rom 7:18 we need to put off the old man and put on the new man Ephesians 4:22-24

Why are you claiming that we (especially as Christians) can NOT obey God and Love Him

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Rom 7:22-23

I am claiming that we cannot obey God in our own strengh.

We are to have victory in Christ over sin

Do YOU see any signs of the Victorious Life in the majority of professing Christians? I merely ask the question. In how many do you see Victory over so-called RESPECTABLE sins? -- bad temper, irritability, pride, jealousy, backbiting, unlove, ANXIETY?

L
Logic

murrcolr said:
we should never endeavour to overcome sin and be holy through their own exertion-------through doing our best.
Obediance is not an "exertion"
Repentance isn't either.

Our best is our duty.

As our best will always end it failure........
Why is that?
Where is that in Scripture?

You must come to understand what it means to say, "In me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing" (Romans 7:18)
Our will is not of the flesh.
Notice the other part of that verse?
"for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
IOW:
Romans 7:18 I know that nothing of virtue is in my flesh. However, I am willing to do good (willing to have the right affections), but, I don't know how to do it.

Paul [b]doesn't know how to do good[/b] because he doesn't see any alternate action in view.

He does not have anything else to put his affection on in order for him to stop sinning, except for the ones he has already grown accustom to ( which are the sinful ones).

He doesn't have any alternative pleasure other than that which he has already been taking pleasure in for him to stop.
The law telling him that he must stop is not enough; so he willfully continues to follow after the flesh's affections, which he knows is unlawful, being condemned.
The law is not enough for one to stop sinning; it only tells you that you should stop and not [b]how[/b] you should.

The struggle here in Romans 7 is with a Christian Conscience, i.e an awakened conscience, a renewed heart, that understands the righteousness of God.

Paul in his unconverted Jewish state would have had no struggle because he assumed he was keeping the law. A pagan on the other had would not have a conscience of sin because he would have no sense of why his actions would be wrong.

Rom 2:14-15 proves that a pagan would have a conscience of sin, otherwise his conscience would not condemn him.

Paul as an unconverted Jew, on the other hand, did not know coveting was wrong until he had read the comandment, "You shall not covet." (Rom 7:7)
Now lawlessness took its start through the commandment, and from the commandment, it brought revealed in him all that were truly unlawful desires (Rom 7:8).

And Paul was (really spiritually) alive when he didn't know the commandments of the law, but when he heard of that specific commandment ("You shall not covet." v.7), then his affections became known as unlawful, and he died spiritually (because he kept doing that which I had affection toward).(Rom 7:9)

And the specific commandments which were to give (eternal) life, he found them to be the death of him (because he kept willfully choosing to do that which the law tells him not to do).(Rom 7:10)

Because as lawlessness took its start through the commandment, it deceived him (by making him think that his desires were lawful before he knew the law), and by those commandments, made him die spiritually.
Because he still chose to give in to those unlawful desires after learning they wrong (Rom 7:11).

The very fact that you are wrestling with sin is one of the signs of the new birth.
Christians do not wrestle with sin.
We may wrestle with temptation, but not sin.

The diference is that wrestling with sin implies that we are IN SIN (actually sinning) and are fighting to stop.

Wrestling with temptation is that we are not IN SIN but we are tempted to sin.

However, when we as a christian is sinning, all we must do is repent (stop sinning).
There shouldn't be any struggle to stop sinning; if there is, you realy have a problem.

The "new birth" would have proofs of no sin, not stuggles to stop sinning.

For to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. Rom 7:18 we need to put off the old man and put on the new man Ephesians 4:22-24
I already explained Romans 7:18. But for Ephesians 4:22-24:
When we are saved, we should have already put off the old man and put on the new man.
(Colos 3:9-10 & Rom 6:6)
The "old man" would be the person that Paul (or us) was [b]before[/b] salvation.
Our old man (or who we were [b]before[/b] we were saved) is the one that [b]walked after the flesh[/b] in regards to our former behavior (Eph 4:22), having been corrupted according to the deceitful lusts.

Our soul that was ruled by the flesh & its passions was crucified with Him, that the (whole) body of those passions might be nullified, so that we no longer serve those passions.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Rom 7:22-23
I am claiming that we cannot obey God in our own strengh.
What do you mean by "our [b]own[/b] stregnth"?

Are you implying that we can't just choose to obey as we should?
Are you implying that we can't just choose to repent as we should?
Are you implying that we can't just choose to love God as we should?

Are you implying that we can't just choose to walk in the spirit so to not fullfill the lust of the flesh as we should?

It seems that you equate the Christian with the unsaved in things pertaning to sin.
Why is that?

M
murrcolr

And Paul was (really spiritually) alive when he didn't know the commandments of the law, but when he heard of that specific commandment ("You shall not covet." v.7), then his affections became known as unlawful, and he died spiritually (because he kept doing that which I had affection toward)

What don't you know the verse Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

So you are saying you are born perfect--righteous..

The phrase in Romans 5:12, "And thus death spread to all men" can be translated into more modern English as, "When death entered the race, it went throughout." It means death indiscriminately affected all because all sinned.

In Galatians 3:22, Paul adds another picture to the Bible's teaching of the universality of sin. "But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." "The Scripture" is the Old Testament; it is man's jailer, condemning and confining him because he has sinned.

"Man" in the Greek Scriptures is huph hamartian, man under sin. This means he is under the power of, in subjection to, under the control of or dependent upon, sin. Sin holds man under its authority.

When we are saved, we should have already put off the old man and put on the new man The "old man" would be the person that Paul (or us) was before salvation.

Who is Paul talking to in Ephesians 1:1 to the saints at Ephesus who are also faithful and loyal and steadfast in Christ Jesus. Please note they are not unbelivers

So we have established who Paul is writing we look at (AMP)Ephesians 4:22 Strip yourselves of your former nature [put off and discard your old unrenewed self] which characterized your previous manner of life and becomes corrupt through lusts and desires that spring from delusion

Paul writing to these Saints in Ephesus teaches them that they should put off and discard your old unrenewed self.

Colonel Milton Agnew of The Salvation Army laments, “Oh, that the believer might at that time discover the deliverance that is possible by crucifying the old
man - the old I!

If all Christians are potentially crucified with Christ on the Cross, they are there in fact only when they place themselves there. [b]“How many thousands of Christians have never faced the fact of the necessity of being crucified with Christ! They remain self-centered, shallow, defeated Christians”[/b]

Roms 6:6 Is about the judical aspect of our salavation not the experiential..

When Paul says that our old man was crucified with Christ he means THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE IN ADAM. It's a judical reckoning of God that the old man was once and for all put away.

So we need to experience this deliverance which is ours judically which will take us from being the wrecthed man of Roms 7 into more than a conueror in chapter 8

Put of the Old man and put on the new man which is Christ.

S
sermonindex

Jesus doesn't allow his followers to sin.

"..I have not found thy works perfect before God. ..repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."

L
Logic

Double Post

L
Logic

murrcolr asked:
What don't you know the verse Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.
Romans 5:12 "Therefore, even as through one man, sin entered into the world, and through sin death; and in the way just indicated, death passed through into all mankind, on all whom had sinned."
The term “therefore” shows us that Paul is still writing about justification by faith. He is not starting a new subject about “original sin” or “sin nature”

Let's break it down:
"as by one man, sin entered into the world";
Just that, nothing more.
The first transgression was introduced into the world by Adam. Nothing more must be read into this.

"[b\\]and through sin, death[/b] (entered into the world because of Adam)
Spiritual death comes to all who choose to sin, just as Adam chose to sin.
Physical death came by Adam being cut off from the tree of life, therefore we are cut off.

Spiritual death is from our own, personal sin from our age of accountability. No one dies spiritually because of anyone esles sin; we are not born spiritually dead.

Physical death is not a judgment of sin, but only a consequence of being cut off from the Tree of Life.

"[b]so also death passed to all men,[/b]"
Because of this next part of the verse…

"[b]on all whom had sinned.[/b]"
Spiritual death passed to all who sin (not by birth).
[b]Death passed to all men who sinned[/b], but not to the extent that in the future people have already sinned "in Adam" .

Spiritual death passes only to all who sin because a moral, intentional choice of sin has been made. God cannot have fellowship with those who reject Him, those who are in sin must be separated from God, and therefore, they are spiritually dead in their sins, which is a choice to disobey.
It is to be “alienated from the life of God, because of the willful ignorance that is in them, because of hardening of their heart [which is always willful]” (Eph. 4:18), that is, alienated from a relationship with God (John. 17:3).

So you are saying you are born perfect--righteous..
Not just me, but all mankind.
No one sins before they’re born, therefore we are born innocent, which means that we are born righteous.

Righteous means to be in right standing with God.
If one hasn't sinned yet and innocent, then he is still in right standing with God.

Being born "Perfect"?
Yes, I had 10 fingers & 10 toes, 2 eyes...etc...

In Galatians 3:22, Paul adds another picture to the Bible's teaching of the universality of sin. "But the Scripture has confined all under sin that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." "The Scripture" is the Old Testament; it is man's jailer, condemning and confining him because he has sinned.
Galatians 3:22 is to be interpreted as the law proving of their sin/disobedience & God gave the law to convict men of their sin so they may repent and receive mercy.

God has proven them to be under sin (disobedience) by the law, and the sin is the evidence which God uses against them.
The law was added because of transgressions, it exists for the reason of making unlawful affections to be evidently unlawful.
In other words, the law exists so that our unlawful affections would be evidently more wicked in contrast to the specific commands of the law (Romans 7:13).

The purpose of the law is to teach one of the character of the Lawgiver also to guide us and to guard us while directing us to mercy of the Lawgiver (Galatians 3:19,24).

•\tThe law guides by showing us the boundary.
•\tThe law guards us by the Justice of it and by penalties of breaking it.
•\tThe law directs us by conviction of guilt that we may seek forgiveness.

Let’s put this in context:
Galatians 3:22 But the scripture embraces everyone in a common subjection to be under sin (disobedience), so that the promise (of righteousness) through faith in Jesus Christ is given to those who believe (as Abraham did).
(See Romans 11:32)

Galatians 3:23 But before the coming of faith, we were guarded under Law, having been embraced in that common subjection (the subjection spoken of in verse 22) to direct us to the faith that is being revealed.

Galatians 3:24 So that the Law has become to us a guide & guard, directing us to Christ so that we might be justified by faith.

"Man" in the Greek Scriptures is huph hamartian, man under sin. This means he is under the power of, in subjection to, under the control of or dependent upon, sin. Sin holds man under its authority.
Don't you Know that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness (Rom 6:16)?

We have a choice of being under sin or not.

However, in Galatians 3:22 with the context being the law as proof for being "under sin", we are under the [b]verdict[/b] of sin because the law convicts us.
The verdict being, "guilty"
Therefore, what you said is not meaning.

When we are saved, we should have already put off the old man and put on the new man The "old man" would be the person that Paul (or us) was before salvation.
Who is Paul talking to in Ephesians 1:1 to the saints at Ephesus who are also faithful and loyal and steadfast in Christ Jesus. Please note they are not unbelievers
They were Christians who had behavior in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind (Eph 2:3), being in time past Gentiles [/b]in the flesh[/b] (Eph 2:11), without Christ (Eph 2:12), who, from now on [b]should be not be[/b] children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine (Eph 4:14), that they should speak the truth in love (Eph 4:15), and that they must no longer walk as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind...etc.. (Eph 4:22)

Since Paul tells them to not walk as other Gentiles walk, they should put off concerning [b]their former [u]way[/u] of life[/b] the old man which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts (Eph 4:22)

So we have established who Paul is writing we look at (AMP)Ephesians 4:22 Strip yourselves of your former nature
NO!!!
It does not say "former [b]nature[/b]".
It is either "behavior", "conversation", or "way of life".

There is nothing about our nature.

Paul writing to these Saints in Ephesus teaches them that they should put off and discard your old un-renewed self.

Colonel Milton Agnew of The Salvation Army laments, “Oh, that the believer might at that time discover the deliverance that is possible by crucifying the old
man - the old I!

And how might they do this?
According to you, they can't.
They can't even if they do their "best".

Rom 6:6 Is about the judicial aspect of our salivation not the experiential..
Who says?

When Paul says that our old man was crucified with Christ he means THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE IN ADAM. It's a judicial reckoning of God that the old man was once and for all put away.
No, it is a personal aspect.
Paul is saying that [b]our[/b] (each one of our's, not the whole human race's) old man was crucified with Christ....that we should no longer serve sin.

Just as Jesus had died and raised, we must reckon the same also; ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, and alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Then it goes onto say that we have a duty (which we are able to disobey). The duty of Rom 6:12-13.

Rom 6:16 tells us that we choose whom our master is.

So we need to experience this deliverance which is ours judicially which will take us from being the wretched man of Rom 7 into more than a conqueror in chapter 8

Put of the Old man and put on the new man which is Christ.

The New Man is not actually Christ. The New Man is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Christ.

Not as a saint all the way through, but from a sinner to a saint.

L
Logic

Oops, double post.

L
Logic

Oops, tripple post.

I
IWantAnguish

I've grown tired of 'trying' to be a Christian.

Tired of 'trying' to stir up emotions in my heart towards God that aren't there.

Tired of 'trying' to act like somebody I am not.

Tired of 'trying' to obey the commandments.

Isn't there something more to Christianity than all this 'trying'?

If all Christianity = effort and 'trying' I don't want it.

M
murrcolr

Mt. 11:28-30 Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and My burden is light.

Most interpret these verses to refer to the good way of salvation and the rest in Him that is found from acts of sin and the ensuing guilt. Actually, as well as this it refers to a little-known better way to walk with God.

This way is better because it has been made free from all the just mentioned "carnal labor and heavy worldly weight". You do not find this better way by getting something more than the New Man, but by getting rid of something that is old.

Even though you are saved and all your previous acts of sin are forgiven, the foundational defiling sinfulness of the fallen heart remains covertly intact. All your acts of sin, both past and future have their root in a basic corruption that is still quietly hidden within your heart of hearts. Any new acts of sin are manifestations of what was already hidden in seed-form within the heart.

Pardon is the remedy for new acts of sin, but there can be no covering or excuse for the heart that is just continuing to be its own perverse natural-born self. It is not an act of sin for your heart to be the way it was born to be, so the only remedy for it is to willingly crucify it on the cross with Christ. Such an unworthy heart is both unavoidable and unlawful since by nature it is not enabled to obey the ten commandments (with will-power you manfully resist, but the unlawful urge remains), and therefore the only cure is to be cleansed from it.

Now once that unworthy hidden world of sinfulness is gone, what is left? You are. The Holy Spirit is. But your heart is now unhindered from the fall and set free to be as Godly as you wish it to be. No pollution means no distance from Him.

There's a link below to help you get on the way.....

[url=http://www.enterhisrest.org/]Enter His Rest[/url]

G
Giggles

I've grown tired of 'trying' to be a Christian.

Tired of 'trying' to stir up emotions in my heart towards God that aren't there.

Tired of 'trying' to act like somebody I am not.

Tired of 'trying' to obey the commandments.

Isn't there something more to Christianity than all this 'trying'?

If all Christianity = effort and 'trying' I don't want it.

Hey brother, I've kept you in mind since the last time we talked and have prayed for you. I can identify and say amen with all that you're feeling. I want to encourage you that many others here on this site and throughout history have wrestled with the same things. It's okay. In fact, to a degree it's normal. Just look at this way, replace that word 'trying' with this: having Christ formed in you (Gal. 4:19). It's not so much you trying, as Jesus being formed. It's a process and a journey to have the God-Man come alive and be developed in you. Settle in your heart and mind He is the only way and say to hell with 'trying' something else or giving up. Draw your line, my friend, in the sand and say, "Come what may come, I'm with Jesus and I won't be dissuaded by my seeming unresponsiveness or inauthenticity." Read Luther's testimony, how he wrestled for years over his salvation. Read Brainerd, my friend, read Brainerd. He will show you a walk of salvation that has the darkest and most depressing lows where he sees himself as the most vile and repulsive, undeserving sinner. Understand this is part of the walk of Christianity. It's not something you're trying; it's something you're becoming...and it takes time.

As a note, 'trying' to stir up emotions is biblical. Everytime the psalmist says "Bless the Lord O my soul," he is commanding his soul, whether it wants to or not, to be praise and worship God. So my brother, don't give up on stirring yourself up.

L
Logic

Luke 13:24 [b]Strive[/b] to enter in at the narrow gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Hebrews 4:11 Let us [b]labor[/b] therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Remember your name!!!
[b]IWantAnguish[/b]
I Want Anguish
As If you ask God for this.

You want to be inflict with distress.
Psalm 119:67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept your word.
Psa 119:71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn your statutes.
Psa 119:75 I know, O LORD, that your judgments are right, and that [b]in your faithfulness have afflicted me[/b].
Psa 119:107 I am afflicted very much: revive me, O LORD, according unto your word.

This one has great wisdom:
Psalm 30:6 And in my prosperity I said, I shall never be moved.
*Have you felt that you were strong?

Psalm 30:7 LORD, by your favor you have made my mountain to stand strong: you did hide your face, and I was troubled.
*But now, it seems that you have come to a mountain in your life which is impassable.
Where no prayer can "cast it into the see" (Mat 21:21) because it was [b]not[/b] put there by the enemy, but by God Himself, He has made it to stand strong.

Psalm 30:8 I cried to you, O LORD; and unto the LORD I made supplication.
*You come to Sermonindex for help as if crying to the Lord with your supplication

God, I need grace.
Every day my perceived reality about myself becomes more and more despondent.

Psalm 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise you? shall it declare your truth?
*The thought which you came to:

If all Christianity = effort and 'trying' I don't want it.
Now, what profit is there in turning away from the truth?
Shall the dust praise God?
Shall it declare God’s truth?

Psalm 30:10-12 Hear, O LORD, and have mercy upon me: LORD, be my helper.
:11 You have turned for me my mourning into dancing: you have put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness;
:12 To the end that my glory may sing praise to you, and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto you forever.
* There have been people on this forum praying for you that Psalm 30:10-12 becomes reality for you.

Now, you’re in the right position for God to work, because His grace is sufficient for you: for His strength is made perfect in weakness!!! (2Co 12:7-10)
In other words, He is the Strongest when we can't do anything about it.
When I say that "we can't do anything", I mean from the mind-set of the flesh (Rom 8:5-8), we all have without submission to His spirit.

Now, what is the mind-set of the flesh?
It is self-gratification.
It is anything which is opposed to selflessness or self-depravation.

What is the mind-set of the spirit?
It is selflessness or self-depravation.
It means to be submitted to his spirit.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free set free from law of sin & law of death (Rom 8:2).

Now, the “law of sin” is the demands of our own fleshly desires & affections against known law that bring us in opposition to God which separates us from Him.

Our desire is to abuse our autonomy which God created us in.
We want to have our own government which we create for ourselves.
However, For us to stay in a relationship with God through Christ (John 17:3), we must govern ourselves with God's ways, laws & such.

The “law of sin & of death” includes the inability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM.
Remember this, for it is important to remember!

[b]Question[/b]:
Do you [b]try[/b] not to cheat on your wife?
[b]No[/b], there is no need to "try" because you naturally don't cheat on your wife [b]because you love her[/b].
This is your answer.
Love is selflessness or self-depravation.
Love causes you to forget yourself.
Love causes selflessness or self-depravation.

Rom 8:4 The righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
* what does it mean to "walk after the Spirit"

[b]Love[/b] is the fulfilling of the law (Rom 13:10).
Rom 13:8 Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law.

Philip 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vain glory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than themselves.

1Thes 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

Humility is not difficult; there is no need to [b]try[/b] to be humble. All you need to do is love others more than yourself.
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That you love one another; as I (Jesus) have loved you, that you also love one another.
John 15:12 This is my commandment, That you love one another, as I have loved you.
*This replaces:
You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Mat 22:39).

Pray that God fill you with LOVE!!!
Love is effortless; this is what you want.
You want effortless Christianity.

M
murrcolr

I WantAnguish it is God’s way of dealing with us. He allows us to strive to fulfill the law that, as we strive and wrestle, you be brought to this: “I am a regenerate child of God, but I am utterly helpless to obey His law.

Don't give him a defeatist attitude.
He wants victory over this sin.

We are not "utterly helpless to obey His law". The righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Rom 8:4)

In other words, [b]He is the Strongest when we can't do anything about it.[/b]
When I say that [b]"we can't do anything", I mean from the mind-set of the flesh[/b] (Rom 8:5-8), we all have without submission to His spirit.

Our impotence is taught before salvation.
When we learn of our impotence as an unsaved sinner, we are directed toward Christ for salvation to give us the strength & He gives us the Victory.

Just thought I would remind you of what you said earlier so you agree with me then that we are "utterly helpless to obey His law" because as you said He is the Strongest when we can't do anything about it because we can't do anything", I mean from the mind-set of the flesh.

Our soul that was ruled by the flesh & its passions was crucified with Him, that the (whole) body of those passions might be nullified, so that we no longer serve those passions.

The “law of sin & of death” includes the inability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM.
Remember this, for it is important to remember!

So what's it to be is it our soul is crucified with him that the (whole) body of those passions might be nullified [b]or[/b] “law of sin & of death” includes the inability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM..

It can't be both it's either nullified which means we no longer serve the passions or they are not nullified and we don't have the ability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires and God has to bring us to a place where we find that we are utterly helpless(weak in our strengh as you state) to obey His law because of the in-ability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires.

Where we see the need for a deeper work in our lives that in our own strength we are weak and utterly helpess to live a Holy life pleasing to God. Where he hears the cry of our heart and that we want to surrender all to him to and then comes to deliver us from the that the (whole) body of those passions (ie: cleanses our heart and the body of sin is slain).

Then and only then do we step into the life of walking in the Spirit becauses before he delivered us by cleansing our heart and slaying the body of sin we just can't do it.

I
IWantAnguish

Legalistic holiness.

We like to listen to piercing sermons, and motivating clips because it makes us feel like we've accomplished something.

But we take the exhortations and turn them into legalistic holiness; forgetting that we need to take the first 3/4's of the epistles of theology, and let those drive us into practical applications.

Not the other way around. Which is common among the majority of church-goers, I would even say among the majority of those on this site. Those who take the practical applications and dress them up in a false passion for the glory of God.

I want the thing that happened to Augustine to happen to me.

Where God becomes more beautiful than the alluring enticement of sin.

Currently, I hate sin because I see it owns me.
But on the other hand, I also do not desire God.

I desire to be free from sin that dominates me.
But I do not have a supreme passion for the glory of God which overwhelms and conquers my flesh.

Augustine defined grace / freedom as when God becomes so beautiful that sin does not even become a choice; that choosing sin would be a subtraction from his own happiness.

John Piper likes to label this as Christian Hedonism. Where your pleasure is found in the glory of God through the cross of Christ. Finding the ultimate joy in the person of Christ flooding over the lies of Satan.

My question is, how does one arrive at the place of Augustine. Is that why the Word of God says that grace is a gift? Given to those whom He chooses... denied those not chosen.

I
IWantAnguish

Double post.

L
Logic

IWantAnguish said:
Currently, I hate sin because I see it owns me.
This is the wrong reason to hate sin.

Furhtermore, you forget that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey...(Rom 6:16)
Sin does not have to "own you"!

So, what's your problem?
Do you not understand my last post?
The answer is right there for you to stop sinning.
[/b]LOVE[/b]
Love is a choice, not just an emotion. The choice MUST come first.

Please, re-read my last post.

I desire to be free from sin that dominates me.
This is a sincerer question.
Why do you want to be free from sin?

But on the other hand, I also do not desire God...
...I do not have a supreme passion for the glory of God which overwhelms and conquers my flesh.
In other words, you do not have it but you want it.

Augustine defined grace / freedom as when God becomes so beautiful that sin does not even become a choice; that choosing sin would be a subtraction from his own happiness.
The thing is that God does not [b]become[/b] so beautiful. The fact is that He already is beautiful.
However, you might mean that you [b]want[/b] Him to "become beautiful" [b]to you[/b].

The problem is that how can you see something which is already truly beautiful and not see it as it already is?

It's like looking at a beautiful sunset and wanting to see a beautiful sunset while you’re looking at it.

There must be something you’re not recognizing.

My question is, how does one arrive at the place of Augustine.
We may equate love for God as our seeing Him as beautiful.

Luke 7:47 Therefore I say unto you, Her sins which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.

How much do you think you are forgiven?
Do you know what the extent that God went to for your pardon?

Do you actually know the extent of your sin?
You may think so, but take a second thought.

The fact that you have a wrong reason of hating sin might be a clue.

You might even not know what it means to actually be forgiven.

[b]Question?[/b]
Why don't you just be obedient and forget the emotional aspect of it.
Why not just do what you know your supposed to do (Luke 17:9-10)?

God might be just testing you to see if you just WILL just choose to obey Him.
The emotional aspect may come later.

M
murrcolr

I want the thing that happened to Augustine to happen to me.

You are on the right track.........

Samuel Brengles testimony

On January 9, 1885, at about nine o'clock in the morning, God sanctified my soul. I was in my own room at the time, but in a few minutes I went out and met a man and told him what God had done for me. The next morning, I met another friend on the street and told him the blessed story. He shouted and praised God and urged me to preach full salvation and confess it everywhere. God used him to encourage and help me. So the following day I preached on the subject as clearly and forcibly as I could, and ended with my testimony.

God blessed the word mightily to others, but I think He blessed it most to myself. That confession put me on record. It cut the bridges down behind me. Three worlds were now looking at me as one who professed that God had given him a clean heart. I could not go back now. I had to go forward. God saw that I meant to be true till death. So two mornings after that, just as I got out of bed and was reading some of the words of Jesus, He gave me such a blessing as I never had dreamed a man could have this side of Heaven. [b]It was a heaven of love that came into my heart. I walked out over Boston Common before breakfast weeping for joy and praising God. Oh, how I loved! In that hour I knew Jesus and I loved Him till it seemed my heart would break with love.[/b] I loved the sparrows, I loved the dogs, I loved the horses, I loved the little urchins on the streets, I loved the strangers who hurried past me, I loved the heathen -- I loved the whole world.

Taken from Helps to Holiness by Samuel Brengle

[url=http://www.raptureready.com/resource/brengle/brengle.html]Helps To Holiness[/url]

Edit:-Spelling Mistake

L
Logic

Just thought I would remind you of what you said earlier so you agree with me then that we are "utterly helpless to obey His law" because as you said He is the Strongest when we can't do anything about it because we can't do anything", I mean from the mind-set of the flesh.
From the mind-set of the flesh. You did not make that distinction.

But we are not "utterly helpless to obey His law".

We are helpless in the sence that we can't while we have the mind-set of the flesh.
But we are while we have the mind-set of the spirit we are not helpless.
Since we may always ave the mind-set of the spirit, it trumps our helplessness altogether.

All we must do is continually, consistantly keep the mind-set of the spirit, which is love.

So what's it to be is it our soul is crucified with him that the (whole) body of those passions might be nullified or “law of sin & of death” includes the inability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM.

It can't be both it's either nullified which means we no longer serve the passions or they are not nullified and we don't have the ability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires and God has to bring us to a place where we find that we are utterly helpless(weak in our strengh as you state) to obey His law because of the in-ability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires.

What?!?

[b]When our flesh is crucified[/b] with Him, that the (whole) body of those passions might be nullified, so that we no longer serve those passions
[b]Then the flesh[/b] with it's inability to deny its own fleshly desires [b]is out of the way[/b].

or
When our flesh is crucified, Then the flesh is out of the way; & we don't have to deal with it's inability to deny its own fleshly desires, because those passions are nullified so that we no longer serve them.

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